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Windy
06-02-2007, 01:30 AM
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=216164



1. 49ers
Nate Clements will be the team's first shutdown corner since the mid-1990s. Walt Harris is a tough ball hawk with solid coverage skills. Nickel back Shawntae Spencer would start for many teams.

2. Cowboys
Coaches want Terence Newman to take the final step toward stardom. Anthony Henry (6-1, 208) is big with good ball skills. Nickel back Aaron Glenn is solid but struggles on deep balls.

3. Eagles
Lito Sheppard and Sheldon Brown complement each other. Sheppard is a gambling playmaker; Brown is a solid cover corner and a punishing tackler. William James replaces Rod Hood at nickel back.

4. Packers
Al Harris is great in bump-and-run coverage. Charles Woodson isn't that fast anymore but has great ball skills. In an unproven pool of backups, Will Blackmon has the most talent.

5. Buccaneers
Ronde Barber and Brian Kelly are Pro Bowl-caliber starters. After that there's a big drop-off to Phillip Buchanon and Sammy Davis.


6. Bears
Coming off his finest season, Charles Tillman (6-1, 196) has the size to shut down big receivers. Nathan Vasher is a ball hawk on the right side. Ricky Manning is comfortable in the nickel role.

7. Vikings
Antoine Winfield and Cedric Griffin are physical, but Winfield's status is in question after he skipped most offseason activities. Dovonte Edwards and rookie Marcus McCauley will compete for the nickel spot.

8. Panthers
Ken Lucas has the skills to be top-notch in coverage but must make tackles consistently. Though Chris Gamble makes big plays, he gets beat too often on deep passes. Richard Marshall could challenge for a starting spot.

9. Falcons
Lewis Sanders and rookie Chris Houston are two adequate options to start opposite Pro Bowl corner DeAngelo Hall. Sanders has been a starter, and Houston locked down top college receivers last season.

10. Redskins
Shawn Springs is an elite corner when he's healthy and happy. Carlos Rogers can be a solid starter but must bounce back from a sub-par second season. Nickel back Fred Smoot is back after two seasons with the Vikings.

11. Seahawks.
Marcus Trufant could emerge with better safety help. Kelly Jennings is talented but unproven. Rookie Josh Wilson is more explosive than Jennings and could push for a starting job.

12. Saints.
Mike McKenzie, Fred Thomas and Jason Craft gave up too many deep passes and didn't make enough big plays in 2006.

13. Rams
Tye Hill must improve his tackling. Fakhir Brown has experience and good cover skills. Nickel back Ron Bartell showed big-play ability late last season.

14. Cardinals.
Key for this group is the development of Antrel Rolle and Eric Green, who were inconsistent in their first two seasons. Rod Hood will compete with Green for a starting job.

15. Giants
Sam Madison has lost a step, and Corey Webster struggled in his first two seasons. Nickel back R.W. McQuarters is a playmaker but doesn't have Webster's speed or Madison's instincts.

16. Lions
Coaches aren't sure who will start, which doesn't bode well. Among the candidates -- Fernando Bryant, Stanley Wilson and Travis Fisher -- none has blazing speed, but each supports the run well.

BlindSite
06-02-2007, 01:31 AM
LOL

Panthers have the best trio of corners in the NFC. Oh and Gamble gave up 2 passing touchdowns in 2005 and 3 last year, while injured, thats not too many.

Richard Marshall out played any rookie cornerback last year and Gamble would be a number one on a lot of teams in the league. Ken Lucas and Chris Gamble are both top 20 twenty at least and Marshall is a stud.

Caddy
06-02-2007, 01:37 AM
I'd take Bailey, Bly and Foxworth over the Panthers any day.

49erfaithful
06-02-2007, 01:41 AM
like the 49ers rankings in that http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Brodeur
06-02-2007, 01:43 AM
Sure the Lions are the worst in the NFC, but at least get all of the criticism right. Stanley Wilson is a very fast man.

kmartin575
06-02-2007, 01:52 AM
I'd take Bailey, Bly and Foxworth over the Panthers any day.

Maybe for this year but Lucas, Gamble, and Marshall are a heck of alot younger than Bailey, Bly, and Foxworth and probably make half the money the Broncos corners make. The Panthers trio will still be playing in 5 years while Bly and Bailey will be well into their 30's.

BlindSite
06-02-2007, 01:53 AM
I'd take Bailey, Bly and Foxworth over the Panthers any day.

Foxworth is weak, soft and sloppy.

Marshall>Foxworth
Gamble = Bly
Champ > Lucas

IMO edge goes to Denver, but not by a great margin.


CHARLOTTE, N.C. (AP) -- Not much went right for Ken Lucas last season.
The cornerback had trouble tackling because of an injured shoulder, and things got so bad that he was briefly taken out of the Carolina Panthers' starting lineup.

But what bothers him the most is that some questioned his toughness.

"I even had teammates question if I had quit on the team," Lucas said Thursday. "That's just crazy for someone to suggest that. I love this game, and I would do this for free if I had to."

Lucas wouldn't identify the players, but said the criticism hurt.

"I would never fake an injury just because things are not going my way," he said.

After undergoing surgery in January, Lucas has returned to the field this week for the Panthers' coaching sessions, prepared to prove his critics -- and perhaps his teammates -- wrong.

"I'm not one of those guys who will try to make an excuse for why I'm not playing well," Lucas said. "The coaches knew I had shoulder and neck issues. But I never came to the media and said I had neck problems.

"Unfortunately, it did affect my game from the mental aspect. There were a lot of times I knew I had to make a tackle, but my mind was telling me I didn't want to, because I knew it was going to hurt like hell to make this tackle. But we tried to fix that this offseason and hopefully it'll be much better this year."

While Lucas is back, a teammate was missing for a second straight day. Defensive tackle Kris Jenkins has been a no-show for the optional workouts. His agent said it has nothing to do with the fact he was on the trading block before the draft, or that he wants a new contract, but he's still the only regular not participating.

Defensive end Mike Rucker and tackle Travelle Wharton are on hand, even though they're still recovering from knee injuries. And Lucas, after sitting out minicamp a month ago, has worked his way back to the field.

"When you're coming off an 8-8 season, obviously our team was disappointed about that," coach John Fox said. "It kind of brings you back with new resolve."

Lucas said last year's struggles motivated him to test the shoulder this week.

"I kind of fell on it today and felt a little pain in it, but I'm comfortable enough to go out here and practice," Lucas said. "I feel like we have a great opportunity to have a good team out here this year, and I'm just trying to be a part of it."

Lucas said he first injured the shoulder in 2005, his first year with Carolina after leaving Seattle to sign a six-year, $36 million free-agent deal. Lucas had six interceptions in 2005 and narrowly missed making the Pro Bowl.

But Lucas had only three picks last year and struggled to bring receivers to the turf. Lucas also had to battle through groin and hamstring injuries last year, which he said were due in part by favoring his shoulder.

Lucas expects to keep his starting spot this year, opposite either incumbent Chris Gamble or Richard Marshall.

"For people to be saying I've lost it as far as tackling ate at me a whole lot," Lucas said. "I wanted to fix it. So my motivation is to prove everybody wrong this year."

scottyboy
06-02-2007, 09:01 AM
LOL

Panthers have the best trio of corners in the NFC. Oh and Gamble gave up 2 passing touchdowns in 2005 and 3 last year, while injured, thats not too many.

Richard Marshall out played any rookie cornerback last year and Gamble would be a number one on a lot of teams in the league. Ken Lucas and Chris Gamble are both top 20 twenty at least and Marshall is a stud.

yes but Tim Lewis is yuor secondary coach...

Paul
06-02-2007, 09:46 AM
Edit. NEvermind

bigbluedefense
06-02-2007, 10:01 AM
LOL

Panthers have the best trio of corners in the NFC. Oh and Gamble gave up 2 passing touchdowns in 2005 and 3 last year, while injured, thats not too many.

Richard Marshall out played any rookie cornerback last year and Gamble would be a number one on a lot of teams in the league. Ken Lucas and Chris Gamble are both top 20 twenty at least and Marshall is a stud.

Is there anything the Panthers aren't the best in?


Ive yet to hear you say something negative about your own team. They seem to be the best in everything, dline/lb core/secondary/wr duo/rb duo. I mean come on now, if they were THAT good, they wouldn't be so inconsistent.

Carolina is the most overrated team in the NFL and has been for a couple of years now.

Don't get me wrong, I think they have a solid team, and solid defense, but theyre not the best in the NFL or NFC for that matter in any particular area of their team. Theyre just not.

iloxygenil
06-02-2007, 10:07 AM
Falcons are about right, until Houston proves something, it's hard to argue for us to be any higher. Obviously Deangelo puts us near the top, but Sanders, Houston, and Irons...well...there's not much to go on there.

princefielder28
06-02-2007, 10:18 AM
4th for Green Bay is good to see

Draft King
06-02-2007, 10:41 AM
Yep, basically iloxy is right. Until somebody across from Hall actually proves something, which I think Houston will do in a couple years, we should be about hear. Other than Milloy, we have a really young secondary with so much potential right now. If Jimmy Williams and Chris Houston play to their ability, in a couple years we will be considered one of the best.

Go_Eagles77
06-02-2007, 11:38 AM
Good spot for the eagles.

23trufant
06-02-2007, 12:53 PM
I'd take Bailey, Bly and Foxworth over the Panthers any day.

He said NFC but I agree Denver's trio is better. Panthers are very talented though.

Geo
06-02-2007, 01:33 PM
Top dog

I'm hesitant about putting the 49ers' trio of Clements/Harris/Spencer over the Bears' trio of Vasher/Tillman/Manning Jr. or evern the Eagles' trio of Sheppard/Brown/James, only because the 49ers haven't played together yet on the field like those other players have. Looking good on paper is all well and good, but I give more credit to playing on the field. That said, when the 49ers do take the field, I think it's very possible they will take the top spot although I still like the Bears the best.

Questionable picks

The Bucs at #5? Ronde Barber and Brian Kelly are past their primes and are good at the moment but not deserving of such a ranking. The Falcons at #9? DeAngelo Hall is a Pro Bowl corner in name only, and the fact that Lewis Sanders and Chris Houston are the leading competitors for the other starter position leave me scratching my head as to why anyone would put them in the top 10.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I'm not fond of the Bears at #6 and the Redskins at #10. The Bears are easily in the top 3 of the conference with the quality of talent, ability, and experience in all three starters. Similarly the Redskins with Springs/Rogers/Smoot, and Macklin as a back-up, would be higher in the top 10 than just at the cusp in my mind.

Also, how does the acquisition of Jason David not noted for the Saints, if the all-important Jason Craft is mentioned? I don't have a problem with them initially ranked outside the Top 10 though, given that we have to see David play with the team first and McKenzie can be beat. I'd rank the Saints ahead of the Falcons, though.

Youth necessary

The Packers have a very good starting duo with Al Harris (who should've been a Pro Bowl selection last year imo) and Charles Woodson if he can stay healthy, but they need to start grooming a young talent to immediately come in as the nickel starter and eventually take over as a starter. I'm wouldn't be surprised if Darrelle Revis had been available at #16, Thompson would have taken him to do so.

But then Revis was in high demand for good reason.

cunningham06
06-02-2007, 02:36 PM
I'll like the Eagles at #3, I want to see a better season from Sheldon this year though.

Sniper
06-02-2007, 02:40 PM
I'll like the Eagles at #3, I want to see a better season from Sheldon this year though.

Reggie Bush sure as hell doesn't ;)
I think they're about right, you could make a case for #2. I think Henry is highly overrated, but whatever 3 works.

ShutDwn
06-02-2007, 02:45 PM
Lucas is usually a great tackler, but his reputation got hurt along with his shoulder last year. Not much you can do other than prove that you are better than that.

Gamble will have to be alert or he isn't starting this season and Marshall will.

cunningham06
06-02-2007, 02:49 PM
Reggie Bush sure as hell doesn't ;)
I think they're about right, you could make a case for #2. I think Henry is highly overrated, but whatever 3 works.

I would probably move the Cowboys to 4 and put the Bears at 2.

Modano
06-02-2007, 02:56 PM
I would probably move the Cowboys to 4 and put the Bears at 2.

If you consider the NB too I don't know if the Eagles are better than the Cowboys.
Newman, imo, is better than Sheppard or at least they are on the same level, Henry and Brown are two CBs that alternate good and bad games, the real problem with Henry is that he can't stay healthy. Even when he's playing, most of the time he's playing hurt. But Cowboys NB is way better than everyone the Eagles have right now. Hood was a good NB, but who do you have now as your nickel cornerback? Aaron Glenn even if old is a very reliable guy and he has played very well so far for the Cowboys. Against the Colts he faced many times Marvin Harrison making a great job on him. The problem is that he will probably retire in 2008, or he will loose a step, but right now he's a very good NB.

D-Unit
06-02-2007, 02:58 PM
Is there anything the Panthers aren't the best in?


Ive yet to hear you say something negative about your own team. They seem to be the best in everything, dline/lb core/secondary/wr duo/rb duo. I mean come on now, if they were THAT good, they wouldn't be so inconsistent.

Carolina is the most overrated team in the NFL and has been for a couple of years now.

Don't get me wrong, I think they have a solid team, and solid defense, but theyre not the best in the NFL or NFC for that matter in any particular area of their team. Theyre just not.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. His name isn't Blindsite for nothing. All he sees is Carolina Blue.

As for the Cowboys... I like our starters, but our depth is a major concern. Lot of bodies with mild upside, but a lot of unknown. Henry took a step back last year from his previous year. Newman is a near shutdown guy, not having given up a TD in the last 2 years.... maybe he gave up 1 last year, I'm not totally sure.... however, he does need to step up with his Interception count in order to take the next step. Hard to say where we'd be ranked, but not #2.

cunningham06
06-02-2007, 03:15 PM
If you consider the NB too I don't know if the Eagles are better than the Cowboys.
Newman, imo, is better than Sheppard or at least they are on the same level, Henry and Brown are two CBs that alternate good and bad games, the real problem with Henry is that he can't stay healthy. Even when he's playing, most of the time he's playing hurt. But Cowboys NB is way better than everyone the Eagles have right now. Hood was a good NB, but who do you have now as your nickel cornerback? Aaron Glenn even if old is a very reliable guy and he has played very well so far for the Cowboys. Against the Colts he faced many times Marvin Harrison making a great job on him. The problem is that he will probably retire in 2008, or he will loose a step, but right now he's a very good NB.

Newman is better than Lito, but I definitely think Sheldon is better than Henry. As for nickelback Aaron is better than James, but James is a former starter who's got good size and should be very solid for us this season. It could go either way, the difference between the two talent wise is marginal either way.

The Dynasty
06-02-2007, 05:19 PM
Im happy with 7th place.

bearsfan_51
06-02-2007, 05:25 PM
I don't think I'm being a homer when I say that the Bears are too low.

If this is JUST starters I'm fine with it, but your nickleback plays about 50% of the time and Ricky Manning Jr is one of, if not the, best nicklebacks in the NFL (when he's not beating up "Jews" at Denny's anyway).

By comparison, the Packers and Bucs have no depth and are ahead? Meh...

It's not a big difference, but I'd put us ahead of both.


And the Niners are way too high. Walt Harris had a good season last year, but come on...he's still Walt Harris. It's not like he all of the sudden became great after 11 seasons in the league.

draftguru151
06-02-2007, 05:55 PM
I don't think I'm being a homer when I say that the Bears are too low.

If this is JUST starters I'm fine with it, but your nickleback plays about 50% of the time and Ricky Manning Jr is one of, if not the, best nicklebacks in the NFL (when he's not beating up "Jews" at Denny's anyway).

By comparison, the Packers and Bucs have no depth and are ahead? Meh...

It's not a big difference, but I'd put us ahead of both.


And the Niners are way too high. Walt Harris had a good season last year, but come on...he's still Walt Harris. It's not like he all of the sudden became great after 11 seasons in the league.

Yea I don't see how they include nickel backs and then have teams that don't have good ones above teams that are 3 deep.

PackerLegend
06-02-2007, 08:28 PM
I don't think I'm being a homer when I say that the Bears are too low.

If this is JUST starters I'm fine with it, but your nickleback plays about 50% of the time and Ricky Manning Jr is one of, if not the, best nicklebacks in the NFL (when he's not beating up "Jews" at Denny's anyway).

By comparison, the Packers and Bucs have no depth and are ahead? Meh...

It's not a big difference, but I'd put us ahead of both.


And the Niners are way too high. Walt Harris had a good season last year, but come on...he's still Walt Harris. It's not like he all of the sudden became great after 11 seasons in the league.

I too agree the Niners are to high and I would say the Harris/Woodson are better then Tillman/Vasher but if you include nicklebacks like you said i would give the bears a slight edge

Rockrule40
06-02-2007, 08:45 PM
Foxworth is weak, soft and sloppy.

Marshall>Foxworth
Gamble = Bly
Champ > Lucas

IMO edge goes to Denver, but not by a great margin.

how is foxworth weak, soft and sloppy? the man played safety for a few games and did very well for being a corner. foxworth could be starting for many teams, he is a very good corner. Denvers 4th corner is also very good Peymah has all the physical skills the only reason he is not the 3rd or even 2nd corner is because he doesnt have good hands and drops a lot of balls, but hes not a WR so it shouldnt count too much against him.

I would go Champ>Lucas>Bly>Gamble>Foxworth=Marshall

Shiver
06-02-2007, 09:44 PM
Is there anything the Panthers aren't the best in?


Ive yet to hear you say something negative about your own team. They seem to be the best in everything, dline/lb core/secondary/wr duo/rb duo. I mean come on now, if they were THAT good, they wouldn't be so inconsistent.

Carolina is the most overrated team in the NFL and has been for a couple of years now.

Don't get me wrong, I think they have a solid team, and solid defense, but theyre not the best in the NFL or NFC for that matter in any particular area of their team. Theyre just not.

Thank you!

stl9erfan
06-02-2007, 09:56 PM
The Niners probably are a bit too high... but that said, if we're ranking top trios, SF is going to be in the top five in the NFC, probably top three. The problem last year was that opposing QBs had WAY too long to throw the ball. Nolan's system on D is very advantageous for smart, athletic corners like Harris though, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see a repeat from him. I also wouldn't be too surprised if he gets moved to FS in the next year or two to help prolong his career-- especially if Tarrell Brown stays out of trouble and plays up to his potential.

BlindSite
06-02-2007, 10:29 PM
Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. His name isn't Blindsite for nothing. All he sees is Carolina Blue.



Wow, both you and big blue obviously don't read my posts, time and time again I've pointed out that Carolina's special teams are hopeless, our safeties are terrible and we need more talent at tight end and fullback. Outside those areas the team is strong, unless you want to argue that probowlers on the offensive line, defensive line, at wide receiver and a great trio of cornerbacks is homeristic...

Fact is Carolina is a very strong defensive unit, they've been at the top of the league three out of the last four years... We've got a great wide receiver and good young running back, we've got depth at offensive line and a good starting set. Our quarterback is money in the postseason and has only had a down year when injured and missing 3 of 5 from the offensive line.

The only argument I've made to get this label you want to throw on me is that Thomas Davis is a better LBer than AJ hawk which was agreed with by another poster, who isn't a panthers fan, and I don't want to drag this out so leave it at that and that Peppers was a better defensive end than Osi Umenyiora which not only other posters agreed with, but professional sports writers and analysts agree with.

Other than that I've said Delhomme is anywhere between 8-15 out of the starting QBs in the league, which isn't a stretch.

Cry me a river.

how is foxworth weak, soft and sloppy? the man played safety for a few games and did very well for being a corner. foxworth could be starting for many teams, he is a very good corner. Denvers 4th corner is also very good Peymah has all the physical skills the only reason he is not the 3rd or even 2nd corner is because he doesnt have good hands and drops a lot of balls, but hes not a WR so it shouldnt count too much against him.

I would go Champ>Lucas>Bly>Gamble>Foxworth=Marshall

Foxworth has very little muscle mass and is quite skinny even for a cornerback, he's lackadaisical when he goes up for the ball and at times hasn't got the mean streak a cornerback needs. He's very sloppy when he cuts and isn't as sharp in the hips and ankles as cornerbacks need to be. He wouldn't start on most teams, he wouldn't start on some teams. He's a nickel, and only just one at that. All he has is speed, which though impressive is useless if he can't change direction properly.

He's no where near Richard Marshall who started for us last year when Lucas was injured and didn't give up any touchdowns and scored one himself on an INT return. Which he had 3 of and 11 passes defensed. Marshall is probably already as good if not better than Chris Gamble and people who follow the Panthers are tipping him to beat him out in Training camp.

Thank you!
See above.

Shiver
06-02-2007, 10:35 PM
It's all a anti-Panthers conspiracy, you've found us out.

BlindSite
06-02-2007, 10:37 PM
No, its just people focus on things that raise their emotions, so if they disagree with something its going to stand out in their mind more than something I've had to say that they agree with.

draftguru151
06-02-2007, 10:48 PM
So it's the special teams, the safeties and tight end that are so bad that the top CBs, top RBs, top LBs, best player ever can't overcome and win. Those are some bad kickers.

BlindSite
06-02-2007, 11:31 PM
What? Last time the team had health at those positions we made the NFCCG... Or did you not remember the dozen or so posts where I've detailed the injury list last year, which was 2nd worst in the league?

31st in the league for players missing starts through injury.

If you're going to insult me, at least be smart enough to do your research into what you're going to talk about first.

bearsfan_51
06-03-2007, 12:07 AM
I just hope you realize that basically anything less than a Superbowl run is going to make you look very foolish. To be in the upper-tier of almost every category (which you are constantly asserting the Panthers are) would make them an almost indestructable force.

SchizophrenicBatman
06-03-2007, 12:09 AM
The Panthers kickers are actually top notch, it's the rest of the special teams that was awful. And yes, they were so hopelessly terrible that it ruined last season (I believe we ranked either last or second to last in both punt and kick returns and that really hurts when you have a field position coach like John Fox). Most of those players are gone now and they'll be replaced by younger, hungrier guys. That's what killed the Panthers most last season IMO. They signed crappy ST vets and cut good young talent like Jarret Bush and Tony Brown. Brown went on to start some games for the Titans and Bush would have been a better option than signing retreads in the middle of the season at CB when Lucas and Gamble went down.

Injuries struck the Panthers hard last year and, aside from Chris Draft and Richard Marshall, everyone who filled in was below average to awful. At their best, the Panther CB trio is exceptional. I don't have a problem with their low ranking, though, because they didn't perform last season. Be it because they weren't playing due to injury, sucked when they played becase of injury (Lucas) or just sucked period (Gamble) they weren't elite last year. They still were pretty good when Dion Byrum and Derrick Strait weren't starting though.

If you guys don't think a team that went 8-8 last year with all the bad luck that befell them isn't a threat that's your perogative. The only reason I don't have more faith in them is because I have no reason to believe mass injuries won't hit them again and Delhomme is a question mark.

DLS42
06-03-2007, 12:12 AM
The fact that the Niners are number 1 makes ne a happy man.

Sniper
06-03-2007, 12:22 AM
Newman is better than Lito, but I definitely think Sheldon is better than Henry. As for nickelback Aaron is better than James, but James is a former starter who's got good size and should be very solid for us this season. It could go either way, the difference between the two talent wise is marginal either way.

Idk James is pretty good when healthy. Close call, but my homerism takes over and I'd say the Eagles as a group are better than the Cowboys group. Plus, we have Joselio Hansen (who sucks) but hey he did fine vs. #81 ;)

BlindSite
06-03-2007, 01:16 AM
I just hope you realize that basically anything less than a Superbowl run is going to make you look very foolish. To be in the upper-tier of almost every category (which you are constantly asserting the Panthers are) would make them an almost indestructable force.

Last time the team was healthy we torched the NFC, including your bears. Since then we've upgraded cornerback, running back linebacker, wide receiver and our defensive and offensive lines and found a legit return man. I expect nothing less than divisonal playoffs this year.

Sniper
06-03-2007, 01:24 AM
Last time the team was healthy we torched the NFC, including your bears. Since then we've upgraded cornerback, running back linebacker, wide receiver and our defensive and offensive lines and found a legit return man. I expect nothing less than divisonal playoffs this year.


Divisional playoffs? With all this talent claim to have, it's SB or bust, isn't it?

bearsfan_51
06-03-2007, 01:27 AM
Last time the team was healthy we torched the NFC, including your bears. Since then we've upgraded cornerback, running back linebacker, wide receiver and our defensive and offensive lines and found a legit return man. I expect nothing less than divisonal playoffs this year.
You torched the NFC?? You got your asses kicked by the Seahawks. I'm talking at the very least making the Superbowl. Maybe you don't realize how ridiculous you hype up basically every position but 3-4 on the team.

BlindSite
06-03-2007, 02:26 AM
You torched the NFC?? You got your asses kicked by the Seahawks.

That's the game where peppers, morgan, and our first 5 RBs on the depth chart couldn't play...

Lets see any team win missing those guys.

Sniper
06-03-2007, 02:37 AM
That's the game where peppers and our first 5 RBs on the depth chart couldn't play...

Lets see any team win missing those guys.

Morgan doesn't count. He's always hurt

BlindSite
06-03-2007, 02:42 AM
Technically he's played more games than he's missed, so "always hurt" is a non sequitur, not only that but until last year he'd played two years in a row playing 12+ games including playoffs in 05.

So yes, he does count, especially when he kept Tiki Barber and Jeremy Shockey in Check against new york, helped limit guys like Jones against chicago. Shaun Alexander and Jerramy Stevens had good games against the Panthers in large part because he wasn't there to lead the defense and make plays.

Morgan doesn't count? His injury couldn't have hurt us more.

here's some advice, you might call me a homer, but at least I know what I'm talking about, you're grasping at straws and making it clear you don't.

no love
06-03-2007, 04:00 AM
The Niners probably are a bit too high... but that said, if we're ranking top trios, SF is going to be in the top five in the NFC, probably top three. The problem last year was that opposing QBs had WAY too long to throw the ball. Nolan's system on D is very advantageous for smart, athletic corners like Harris though, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see a repeat from him. I also wouldn't be too surprised if he gets moved to FS in the next year or two to help prolong his career-- especially if Tarrell Brown stays out of trouble and plays up to his potential.

I'd say even with the two starting corners 49ers are in the top three. Clements is easily one of the top three starting corners in the NFC along with Newman and maybe Al Harris. And Walt Harris was simply the best corner in the NFC west, period (didn't watch enough other NFC games to speak for the rest)... He was great in run support, got a boatload of ints and forced four fumbles, now lets hope he can maintain those numbers with an added pass rush and going against a teams number 2 receiver!

I think Spencer actually had a very inconsistent year last year and really didn't step up the way I thought he would.

Sniper
06-03-2007, 06:41 AM
Technically he's played more games than he's missed, so "always hurt" is a non sequitur, not only that but until last year he'd played two years in a row playing 12+ games including playoffs in 05.

So yes, he does count, especially when he kept Tiki Barber and Jeremy Shockey in Check against new york, helped limit guys like Jones against chicago. Shaun Alexander and Jerramy Stevens had good games against the Panthers in large part because he wasn't there to lead the defense and make plays.

Morgan doesn't count? His injury couldn't have hurt us more.

here's some advice, you might call me a homer, but at least I know what I'm talking about, you're grasping at straws and making it clear you don't.

You know what you're talking about? Clearly you really don't since you claim the Panthers have the best at nearly half the positions. Peppers is the best at his position, Smith at his. Dassit. Wow two years in a row for Morgan. New personal record?

etk
06-03-2007, 07:49 AM
I'd take Bailey, Bly and Foxworth over the Panthers any day.

The Broncos don't play in the NFC. BlindSite said that the Panthers have the best trio in the NFC.

etk
06-03-2007, 07:50 AM
That's the game where peppers, morgan, and our first 5 RBs on the depth chart couldn't play...

Lets see any team win missing those guys.

You're very good at making excuses. It's football, and injuries happen. Stop being a homer that can't admit defeat.

Addict
06-03-2007, 10:47 AM
That's the game where peppers, morgan, and our first 5 RBs on the depth chart couldn't play...

Lets see any team win missing those guys.

31 teams manage to win without Peppers.

remix 6
06-03-2007, 11:23 AM
31 teams manage to win without Peppers.

exactly..a lot of teams dont have a dominant player like Peppers.

Patriots have won without Harrison..without Bruschi..without Corey Dillon..without Branch..without Seymour for a few games. Without Ty Law

injuries..other issues happen. Your team is as good as your backups. You cant depend on your starters all year round now a days..so having good depth is important and u dont need the best players to win.

stl9erfan
06-03-2007, 03:12 PM
I think Spencer actually had a very inconsistent year last year and really didn't step up the way I thought he would.

Spencer was just okay... He didn't give up the big play that I saw too often, but he also didn't make a lot of big plays. It will be interesting to see how he fares in his training camp battle with Harris.

BlindSite
06-03-2007, 05:13 PM
exactly..a lot of teams dont have a dominant player like Peppers.

Patriots have won without Harrison..without Bruschi..without Corey Dillon..without Branch..without Seymour for a few games. Without Ty Law

injuries..other issues happen. Your team is as good as your backups. You cant depend on your starters all year round now a days..so having good depth is important and u dont need the best players to win.

I'm glad we run exactly the same scheme and require exactly the same from exactly all of our players so you could point that out.

cunningham06
06-03-2007, 05:15 PM
I'm glad we run exactly the same scheme and require exactly the same from exactly all of our players so you could point that out.

The point is if you are waiting for a season where none of your starters get injured, you are going to be waiting for a very long time.

TitleTown088
06-03-2007, 06:25 PM
The main reason the Packers went 8-8 last year was because of special teams play, namely kicking. Besides STs play, the safties pretty much the only other thing that held them back from super bowl glory. They are VERY solid( if not the best in the NFL) at every other position on the field with KGB, Manuel, and Poppinga being the anchors to the only other problems holding them back from super bowl city. Why are they so good? Because they play for the Packers, that's why. I'm honestly getting tired of this pro bowl NFC vs. AFC crap, It's about time to turn it into AFC vs. the Packers. How could anyone else who plays for another team in the NFL be good without being a PACKER. Thank god they got Mason Crosby , the Pack will easily go 16-0 now.

CB? 1st easily. LOL at the fact Harris and Woodson are not at the top of that list. Idiots. I mean, they play for the Pack.
D-line? Best. Kampman pretty much is the best player in the NFL.
O-line? Best. Why? because they wear Green and Gold.
Backs? We drafted a new RB, we're dank.
WR? Probowl Donald Driver, best. Plus we drafted a couple New WR that will be good because they play for the PACKERS! duh.
TE. Bubba franks used to be good. He'll be probowl next year. Antonio who?
LB? Nick Barnett >>>>> Urlacher ,because he plays for the Packers. If he didn't break his hand last year he's better by a large margin.
Hawk? best ever, he plays for the PACKERS.
QB- Brett Favre once threw for 40 TD's . He'll throw for 79 this year.
AS you can see . It's only the safties and special teams holding this grand team back. If Underwood wouldn't have gotten injured we'd be golden.
Damn we're good.
Now, Back in 1997 the Packers were picked as super bowl favorites so this means we'll be favorites in the weak NFC now. right? I mean, there is no possible way MY team could regress. We're too good at every position, just a couple of special teams players and were bowl bound.

Borat
06-03-2007, 06:57 PM
Holy crap! Someone ranked us first in something. Been a long time for us Niner fans. It's fun not being a doormat anymore.

bigbluedefense
06-03-2007, 07:15 PM
I'm glad we run exactly the same scheme and require exactly the same from exactly all of our players so you could point that out.

Actually, the schemes are very similar. The only major difference is the front. Fox uses the 4-3, and Bellichick the BP 3-4. So inheritly, the way the run is stopped is different in comparison.

But the methods of pressure and coverage and the style of defense is very very close. Fox uses alot of similar schemery. Just out of a 4-3 front.

wogitalia
06-04-2007, 03:33 AM
Looks about right. I like the Vikes at 7. Winfield is one of the very best in the league but Griffin has to prove he can do it for an entire season. Edwards/McCauley is great depth, McCauley should replace Winfield in a couple of years if all goes well and he plays up to his ability. Which is always a big if with the Vikes.

BlindSite
06-04-2007, 06:59 AM
Actually, the schemes are very similar. The only major difference is the front. Fox uses the 4-3, and Bellichick the BP 3-4. So inheritly, the way the run is stopped is different in comparison.

But the methods of pressure and coverage and the style of defense is very very close. Fox uses alot of similar schemery. Just out of a 4-3 front.

Except the linebackers run different coverage schemes even when they're in nickel formations.

High Roller
06-04-2007, 08:36 AM
Holy crap! Someone ranked us first in something. Been a long time for us Niner fans. It's fun not being a doormat anymore.

Haha yea...I was a little shocked. I personally like Denver better but 49ers deserve top 3.

Gribble
06-04-2007, 09:37 AM
Niners' corps haven't even played a down together. They shouldn't be first until we get to see them in action.

bigbluedefense
06-04-2007, 09:59 AM
Except the linebackers run different coverage schemes even when they're in nickel formations.

Can you explain in more detail? Im curious to know more about it. I have seen a decent amount of Carolina games, but not nearly as much as you I would assume.


One thing I noticed that Fox does alot more than most is the CB blitz. Fox is not affraid to come with a CB blitz. Bellichick doesn't do that much. He'll use safety blitzes, but rarely CB blitzes.


For a 4-3 guy, Fox uses alot of ZB relative to other 4-3 guys. I love his scheme. He's my favorite 4-3 coordinator. Primarily because he runs a scheme similar to the BP 3-4, which is my favorite scheme.

jkpigskin
06-04-2007, 10:15 AM
hmmm, i would've put carolina at 1st for the nfc, the only team that could be over carolina is the bears IMO

carolina has the best combination of starters/nickle

BlindSite
06-04-2007, 05:21 PM
Can you explain in more detail? Im curious to know more about it. I have seen a decent amount of Carolina games, but not nearly as much as you I would assume.

A lot of Carolina's defense relies on having a roaming linebacker to make plays. Think Georgia's defense where they used Thomas Davis when he was there (although he was a safety). To be free to run around and hit. Most of the time that's Morgan in our defense which is why when he's on the field he's so good, he can do what he likes.

BB does the same thing, but he varies who's the free running linebacker, a lot of times its either Brushci or Vrabel, but its pretty much even amongst the corp.


One thing I noticed that Fox does alot more than most is the CB blitz. Fox is not affraid to come with a CB blitz. Bellichick doesn't do that much. He'll use safety blitzes, but rarely CB blitzes.

Yeah, he likes to blitz the nickel. What he'll do is put someone like Thomas Davis at nickel back, by coming out in a 43 base, he'll slide Davis over to the CB and drop the safety down a little way, and then bring Davis off the edge. He like to use Richard Marshall as a blitzer last year too because he was so aggressive.

I really liked the run blitzes he does with the corners.


For a 4-3 guy, Fox uses alot of ZB relative to other 4-3 guys. I love his scheme. He's my favorite 4-3 coordinator. Primarily because he runs a scheme similar to the BP 3-4, which is my favorite scheme.
I love zone blitzes, I just wish madden knew how to actually make a realistic zone blitz so I could use them in game lol.

What I'm trying to say is that yes, I make some excused but in the NFCCG, its hard to win games when two of the players your defense is designed to free up are injured its hard to make adjustments against a great team. Especially one as strong as seattle was that year. i think people forget how close they came to winning that SB, they really were in it up until a few bad plays.

Moses
06-04-2007, 05:36 PM
I just read an article that said some players on Carolina felt that Ken Lucas was faking injuries last season and that he quit on the team. Lucas obviously denied that he faked injuries or quit on the team.

DMWSackMachine
06-05-2007, 01:22 PM
One thing that kills me in regard to the ever present CB debate: last year at this time, Philly fans were completely bagging on Lito saying that he was vastly overrated, that he was no more than an average corner at best who takes too many gambles and constantly gets burned, while Sheldon was the true shutdown guy who never got the credit and was vastly over-looked.

NOW, since Sheldon struggled in 06 with some breakdowns, and Lito had a big year with a couple pick-6es, all of a sudden Lito is one of the top cbs in the game again and Sheldon is back in his place as a "solid" support type. Lito Sheppard is a good player, but he isn't anywhere near Pro Bowl caliber, and I have never watched an Eagle game (and I watch just about every game of theirs during the season) in which I thought, "wow, Lito is really shutting his guy down".

But its amazing to me how people have flip flopped on this issue so much.

Addict
06-05-2007, 01:47 PM
One thing that kills me in regard to the ever present CB debate: last year at this time, Philly fans were completely bagging on Lito saying that he was vastly overrated, that he was no more than an average corner at best who takes too many gambles and constantly gets burned, while Sheldon was the true shutdown guy who never got the credit and was vastly over-looked.

NOW, since Sheldon struggled in 06 with some breakdowns, and Lito had a big year with a couple pick-6es, all of a sudden Lito is one of the top cbs in the game again and Sheldon is back in his place as a "solid" support type. Lito Sheppard is a good player, but he isn't anywhere near Pro Bowl caliber, and I have never watched an Eagle game (and I watch just about every game of theirs during the season) in which I thought, "wow, Lito is really shutting his guy down".

But its amazing to me how people have flip flopped on this issue so much.

That is the worst word EVER. EVER!

BlindSite
06-05-2007, 05:02 PM
I just read an article that said some players on Carolina felt that Ken Lucas was faking injuries last season and that he quit on the team. Lucas obviously denied that he faked injuries or quit on the team.

Yeah, that was Keyshawn, or so I've heard, apparently he had something to say about Steve Smith sitting out two games early on with hamstring injuries.

Part of the reason he was booted. Lucas has tremendous heart and when some players on the team come out lackadaisical he's always playing at 100% speed and giving it his all.

Moses
06-05-2007, 05:21 PM
Yeah, that was Keyshawn, or so I've heard, apparently he had something to say about Steve Smith sitting out two games early on with hamstring injuries.

Part of the reason he was booted. Lucas has tremendous heart and when some players on the team come out lackadaisical he's always playing at 100% speed and giving it his all.

The article cited that more than one player said so. Also, it sounded like the coaches were pretty disappointed in him which is why Marshall took over.

BlindSite
06-06-2007, 12:04 AM
Marshall took over on the first down and sometimes second depending on down and distance because he's a great tackler and loves to hit people in the mouth. As the article points out Lucas had an injured Shoulder and Neck, you can't hit a running back hurting like that, that's why Marshall was put in instead.

Gamble locked down his spot because his injuries were lower body, so he could still hit fairly well.

Lucas is locked in as our starting cornerback, he was hurt and that's all there is to it.

Star Wideout
06-06-2007, 07:10 AM
Ya I find it hard to believe he quit on the team when you could see how disappointed he was just to not be out there. The guy at one point had atleast 5 different injuries he just couldn't go out there and be fully effective on every snap.

DMWSackMachine
06-06-2007, 10:46 AM
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought this was the "Top NFC Corners" thread, but I must have accidentally stumbled into the "Make Up Excuses For My Players Ineptitude" thread. My bad.

DMWSackMachine
06-06-2007, 10:48 AM
That is the worst word EVER. EVER!

um......where have you been, dude? You don't actually think that I made that up, do you?

Addict
06-06-2007, 10:53 AM
um......where have you been, dude? You don't actually think that I made that up, do you?

watcha mean by 'where have you been'? and I'm hoping you didn't make it up.

Smokey Joe
06-06-2007, 11:05 AM
Bears should be around that 3-5 range. The Packers and Bucs are both too high, IMO. And the niners at no. 1 is laughable... Basically, it seems like I am repeating what my man 51 said.

Moses
06-06-2007, 11:18 AM
Bears should be around that 3-5 range. The Packers and Bucs are both too high, IMO. And the niners at no. 1 is laughable... Basically, it seems like I am repeating what my man 51 said.

Hard to argue against Harris and Woodson. Not many better duos in the league than that. Obviously the nickelback position is a big weakness right now.

keylime_5
06-06-2007, 05:23 PM
Chris Gamble is pretty underrated IMO. He's the best corner on that team from what I've seen, but Lucas is really awesome. Chicago and Tampa are great CB units, and Dallas is far too high on that list.

Shiver
06-06-2007, 05:36 PM
Chris Gamble is pretty underrated IMO. He's the best corner on that team from what I've seen, but Lucas is really awesome. Chicago and Tampa are great CB units, and Dallas is far too high on that list.

You have that backwards. Gamble is overrated, Lucas is underrated.

BlindSite
06-06-2007, 06:44 PM
Agreed, I don't know why Lucas isn't noticed for being the good player he is, even before he got injured, he had a couple of game sealing INTs in the playoffs but still all the talk was about Gamble.

d34ng3l021
06-06-2007, 11:13 PM
Didnt Gamble make a dumb decision, that pretty much lost them a game this year?

dcarey20
06-06-2007, 11:27 PM
I agree with the Niners at 1. Clements is up there as one of the best, Walt Harris was great this past year, and Shawntae Spencer is a rock solid nickel. The Panthers should be #2 though. Lucas, Gamble, and Marshall are money.

Vikes99ej
06-06-2007, 11:32 PM
The Vikings' spot surprises me. I thought we would be lower than that since some people wrongly believe that the horrendous pass defense is their fault.

BlindSite
06-07-2007, 07:49 PM
Didnt Gamble make a dumb decision, that pretty much lost them a game this year?

Yes and no. He shouldn't have lateralled on a punt return, but the guy he was lateralling to should have been looking for the ball.

draftguru151
06-07-2007, 07:58 PM
I recall Fox saying that the play was called and it wasn't Gamble's decision.

BlindSite
06-07-2007, 08:24 PM
Yeah, but at the end of the day, the player with the ball in their hands makes the decision.

sodar21
06-07-2007, 11:28 PM
Washington with a healthy Shawn Springs has a pretty good CB group.