PDA

View Full Version : Someone explain to me...


SenorGato
06-07-2007, 02:02 AM
the genius logic that rings determines the greatest QBs?

Since when could a QB singlehandedly do anything?

And why are people always crediting W-L to a QB? What kind of genius logic is that? I wonder what the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's would look like with no O-lines, good coaching, and weapons around them? Those guys get no credit?

I love how some QB arguments get down to who has the better record...because QBs and QBs only decide games. Thats why Rex Grossman was the second best QB in the NFL last year, HE'S A SUPER BOWL QB!!11

I mean, Peyton Manning and Dan Marino are/were OBVIOUSLY HUGELY overrated because they didn't have RINGS!! I realize it's the goal and etc...but a QB that produces...alot is more likely to get you there no? No? Is this some crazy guy's brain overthinking the simple results oriented logic of football?

Anyway, I need someone to break this down to my obviously n00b mind.

*Edit* And I love how it usually depends on how well the QB produces, and just how much you like the guy/team. If it's a high producing QB on a really good team, he's got a really good team around him so he's overrated. If he's on a bad team or lacks a supporting cast (defense or something) that sucks...he OBVIOUSLY is overrated because he can't singlehandedly win anything. How does that even work?

Caddy
06-07-2007, 02:42 AM
I don't really think anybody believes that winning a super bowl makes a great QB. Sure it helps, but if you actually think that what you are saying is common belief, then there is something wrong.

SenorGato
06-07-2007, 02:47 AM
Well I've seen it over and over.

How often do you hear "QB X is better than QB Y because his team won more games?" It seems like its far more common than you're letting on.

Caddy
06-07-2007, 03:32 AM
Well I've seen it over and over.

How often do you hear "QB X is better than QB Y because his team won more games?" It seems like its far more common than you're letting on.

I don't really think that many people say that either. Nobody in their right mind thinks a guy like Grossman is better than the likes of McNabb, Palmer, Brees etc. Sure someone may occasionally make a comment like that, but it is generally refuted anyway.

JK17
06-07-2007, 06:16 AM
Well I've seen it over and over.

How often do you hear "QB X is better than QB Y because his team won more games?" It seems like its far more common than you're letting on.

Yeah, I'm not sure many people really believe that. This topic has come up before, and what was concluded I believe was that wins don't make a QB, however just as they get a lot of credit for the wins, they get a lot of blame for the loss, because of the increased responisbility of the position. Wins dont make or break them, but they carry a bigger burden for the QB, because he's a coach on the field, and usually a team captain.

eacantdraft
06-07-2007, 07:13 AM
When a QB has mediocre year after year and the team has loosing season year after year, that QB most likely is not great despite what the homers and the QB's fangirls say.

Neo
06-07-2007, 08:12 AM
Rings have nothing to do with a player being good at all. It determines if he played for a good TEAM or not. Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game (by a pretty good amount). Tom Brady isnt in his league.

JK17
06-07-2007, 10:10 AM
Rings have nothing to do with a player being good at all. It determines if he played for a good TEAM or not. Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game (by a pretty good amount). Tom Brady isnt in his league.

Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game?
Yeah, lets forget about Elway, Marino, Montana, Unitas...they weren't even "within a good amount" of Peyton Manning.

TheMadLionsFan
06-07-2007, 10:40 AM
well.....Brian Cox was calling Manning overated because he never won a playoff game....and then when he won two in the same offseason against "bad defenses" he was till overrated....these cats who do the analysis...."Guy A has x super bowl rings, so he is better than Guy B".....that **** is moronic in my opinion.....and these came clowns i wouldpose the question....Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?

JK17
06-07-2007, 10:46 AM
well.....Brian Cox was calling Manning overated because he never won a playoff game....and then when he won two in the same offseason against "bad defenses" he was till overrated....these cats who do the analysis...."Guy A has x super bowl rings, so he is better than Guy B".....that **** is moronic in my opinion.....and these came clowns i wouldpose the question....Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?

Very few people (and by very few i mean very few) people have called Peyton Manning overrated because he never won a playoff game. No one has called him overrated after he won this postseason. Few people, and those who do are generally laughed at, say that "Player A" is better then "Player B" because he has more rings. Usually there is more to the argument or the guy has no credibility to begin with. The common defense of whose better Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino is old and weak. No one believes Dilfer is better then Marino and for that reason alone, no one actually judges players solely on their rings, or lack thereof.

Neo
06-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game?
Yeah, lets forget about Elway, Marino, Montana, Unitas...they weren't even "within a good amount" of Peyton Manning.

Peyton already has more TD passes than your boy montana. In 9 seasons compared to 15.
Elway completed a lovely 56% of his passes... peyton 64. Peyton will pass him in TD's this year.
Mario's #'s are the only thing comparable and he will eventually be passed by Manning.
Johnny U? are you kidding me?

Neo
06-07-2007, 11:48 AM
let me know when peyton single handledly wills three teams to a super bowl they have absolutely no business playing in. let me know when peyton puts up stats similar to marino's with a similar supporting cast. marino's #'s will all be passed by manning? manning would need 6 consecutive 4,000 yard passing seasons to break marino's yardage mark. which puts him at throwing 4000 yards at 37. yeah.

it's utterly ridiculous that you think there's no argument. you've clearly either only been watching football for about 6 years, you play too much madden, or some combination thereof. but yeah. man, that completion percentage sure tells the whole story if you weren't old enough to ever actually, you know, watch elway play.

Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.

Acreboy
06-07-2007, 11:54 AM
for the longest time people said Brady was better than Manning because he has 2 rings.

Peyton won his ring now people are saying Brady has 3. Might not be on this board but I hear it all the time.

Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.Dude, Elway>McNabb and it's not even close.

That's just a ******** thing to say.

Addict
06-07-2007, 01:46 PM
but yeah, way to competently respond to all the arguments presented, then declare that there's no argument. you said it so it MUST be true.

Dude, he's the One, of course he's right... The oracle agrees.

Seriously though, I don't know what the hell that guy is talking about.

JK17
06-07-2007, 01:51 PM
Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.

Peyton already has more TD passes than your boy montana. In 9 seasons compared to 15.
Elway completed a lovely 56% of his passes... peyton 64. Peyton will pass him in TD's this year.
Mario's #'s are the only thing comparable and he will eventually be passed by Manning.
Johnny U? are you kidding me?

You aren't serious right? You actually think its a joke to compare Johnny Unitas to Peyton Manning? You think that Elway couldn't hold Manning's jock? I hate Elway more then maybe any player in history and even I can admit he's one of the best of all time. Normally I would argue about this with you but everyone else here already knows how ridiculous your joke of an argument is....I'm still laughing about it.

Oh yeah, and you might want to do more research or thinking than looking at career stats...its a bad way to go about things.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
06-07-2007, 02:10 PM
Don't you guys know that a QB's stats are the only way of knowing who's the best? It's pretty much common knowledge. Vinny Testaverde barely edges out Drew Bledsoe as the 6th greatest quarterback in NFL history.

neko4
06-07-2007, 02:20 PM
A great QB needs the wins, championships, and stats. Johnny U had it all, plus, Manning 6'4, Unitas 6'1, Unitas not even good height for his day. Plus he was deemed to skinny too.

You cant base greatness purely on stats, or wins, or champs, but on it all

senormysterioso
06-07-2007, 02:46 PM
Traditionally, it is the quarterback's job to be the leader of the team. And a leaders success is measured in how far he brings his team. If the best buy on Jefferson Street makes 130% of their sales quota the manager will get a bonus. A few teams have deviated from that formula, ie the Ravens with Trent Dilfer but more often than not the quarterback is the unquestioned leader of a successful team.

Mr. Stiller
06-07-2007, 03:14 PM
You aren't serious right? You actually think its a joke to compare Johnny Unitas to Peyton Manning? You think that Elway couldn't hold Manning's jock? I hate Elway more then maybe any player in history and even I can admit he's one of the best of all time. Normally I would argue about this with you but everyone else here already knows how ridiculous your joke of an argument is....I'm still laughing about it.

Oh yeah, and you might want to do more research or thinking than looking at career stats...its a bad way to go about things.

I wonder what Mannings Stats would've been on those Elway Superbowl teams of the 80's.

neko4
06-07-2007, 03:15 PM
Traditionally, it is the quarterback's job to be the leader of the team. And a leaders success is measured in how far he brings his team. If the best buy on Jefferson Street makes 130% of their sales quota the manager will get a bonus. A few teams have deviated from that formula, ie the Ravens with Trent Dilfer but more often than not the quarterback is the unquestioned leader of a successful team.

yes, but you cant judge a QB purely on wins, good point though

niel89
06-07-2007, 03:39 PM
Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.

:rolleyes:puh-leeze

yourfavestoner
06-07-2007, 03:47 PM
My favorite statistic: Bill Belichick failed out of Cleveland and was 5-13 in his tenure with New England before Tom Brady entered the starting lineup. The Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl that year and then two more with virtually the same lineup. Don't you think it might have been Brady that made the difference?

Shiver
06-07-2007, 03:52 PM
Peyton Manning is playing in the golden age of Quarterback statistics. He is playing in a warm weather division, on an offensive centric team that focuses on bringing in talented weapons. (1st round picks on Tarik Glenn, Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, Anthony Gonzalez, off the top of my head.) He's a great player, don't get me wrong, but of course he has great stats. His stats aren't even that much better than Marino, actually. Marino would be lighting up today's NFL.

Xonraider
06-07-2007, 04:14 PM
One word: succesful.

QB is the most important position in any sport. No single sport puts such significance into a QB. Sure, some sports have some really important positions too, but none is as important as the QB. Now, I am not saying that I concur with this idea, but the point they emphatise is the following:

Would you rather have Tom Brady and win 3 super bowls, or Peyton Manning an only win one? It is not a talent issue, or ability for that matter, rather how succesful the QB was throughout his career.

neko4
06-07-2007, 06:13 PM
One word: succesful.

QB is the most important position in any sport. No single sport puts such significance into a QB. Sure, some sports have some really important positions too, but none is as important as the QB. Now, I am not saying that I concur with this idea, but the point they emphatise is the following:

Would you rather have Tom Brady and win 3 super bowls, or Peyton Manning an only win one? It is not a talent issue, or ability for that matter, rather how succesful the QB was throughout his career.

so would you take Trent Dilfer over Randall Cunningham?

255979119
06-07-2007, 06:32 PM
so would you take Trent Dilfer over Randall Cunningham?

But Trent was never a guy who would grab the team by its balls, and throw everyone upon his shoulders. That is what you look for in a quarterback.

The Unseen
06-07-2007, 06:36 PM
But Trent was never a guy who would grab the team by its balls, and throw everyone upon his shoulders. That is what you look for in a quarterback.

"I've never seen a man lifted by his testicles before."

255979119
06-07-2007, 06:38 PM
"I've never seen a man lifted by his testicles before."

I would hope you would not want to.

Frisco-9ers
06-07-2007, 07:34 PM
When people say Joe Montana is the Greatest quarterback of all time, it is because of what he did in theBIG situations.

Anyone remember the 1981 NFC Championship Game. Joe Montana to Dwight Clark (AKA the Catch).

1989 Superbowl Joe Montana pass to John Taylor

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016306.html

"Take the 1989 Super Bowl against the Cincinnati Bengals. The San Francisco 49ers were down by three points with 3:20 left when Montana spotted -- no, not an open receiver -- but a personality. "There, in the stands, standing near the exit ramp," Montana said to tackle Harris Barton. "Isn't that John Candy?" And then he led the 49ers 92 yards, throwing for the winning touchdown with 34 seconds left."


Also I think this quote by Randy Cross fits this topic perfectly

"There have been, and will be, much better arms and legs and much better bodies on quarterbacks in the NFL," said former 49er teammate Randy Cross, "but if you have to win a game or score a touchdown or win a championship, the only guy to get is Joe Montana."

In a quarterback do you want the guy with the biggest arm, fastest legs or the quarterback who always comes up big, in the big situations

Xonraider
06-07-2007, 08:08 PM
so would you take Trent Dilfer over Randall Cunningham?

Did you read the whole post?

BlindSite
06-07-2007, 08:25 PM
Never, but QBs singlehandedly make the team do something.

neko4
06-07-2007, 09:58 PM
But Trent was never a guy who would grab the team by its balls, and throw everyone upon his shoulders. That is what you look for in a quarterback.

Im not argueing against that, I was saying that since Trent won a SB, and Cunningham never even made it, would you rather have the SB winner or Cunningham

Did you read the whole post?

yea it wasnt that long

Xonraider
06-07-2007, 10:06 PM
1. Im not argueing against that, I was saying that since Trent won a SB, and Cunningham never even made it, would you rather have the SB winner or Cunningham



2. yea it wasnt that long

1. Would I rather have an average QB and win a super bowl or a very good one and not win one? I'll take the average one...

2. Then you would know I said I didn't necesarily concur to the point people look for.

Geo
06-07-2007, 10:17 PM
To me, John Elway is the best quarterback to have yet played the game, barely edging out Joe Montana.

well.....Brian Cox was calling Manning overated because he never won a playoff game....and then when he won two in the same offseason against "bad defenses" he was till overrated....
Those two games were beautiful ... *sniff*

I'm pretty sure Hunter the Punter never saw the field for two weeks straight.

Geo
06-07-2007, 10:20 PM
Peyton Manning is playing in the golden age of Quarterback statistics. He is playing in a warm weather division, on an offensive centric team that focuses on bringing in talented weapons. (1st round picks on Tarik Glenn, Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, Anthony Gonzalez, off the top of my head.) He's a great player, don't get me wrong, but of course he has great stats. His stats aren't even that much better than Marino, actually. Marino would be lighting up today's NFL.
Revisionist history eliminates the Colts from the AFC East? When it was the best division in football? That's a shame.

Also, one could probably add coaching (consistency) in favor of Manning depending on how they feel about offensive coordinator Tom Moore, offensive line coach Howard Mudd, runningbacks coach Gene Huey, and (since 2002) quarterbacks coach/assistant head coach Jim Caldwell among others.

Shiver
06-07-2007, 11:35 PM
I'm not excluding his AFC East seasons, at all.

SenorGato
06-08-2007, 03:10 AM
My favorite statistic: Bill Belichick failed out of Cleveland and was 5-13 in his tenure with New England before Tom Brady entered the starting lineup. The Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl that year and then two more with virtually the same lineup. Don't you think it might have been Brady that made the difference?

You know, many choose to think that because it's well...its pretty friggin convenient right? All the success came after Brady came in no?

But...Brady is protected by an O-line and has to throw to guys who catch the ball. Brady also hands it off this "running back" creature.

Theres no denying that Brady is a great QB, but theres no denying that BB is a HOF coach too. Not only that, but he's a HOF coach who surrounded himself with great, HC quality coordinators.

I mean, NO QB ever has done it all by himself. Elway spent most of his career with a defense that was always good and STILL underrated, and didn't win it all until he had a legit running game behind him (not to mention Shanahan's kickass coaching). Montana is the prototype for a WCO QB, and he was surrounded by scary talent all around (O, D, coaching). Manning's Colts realized he was the franchise, gave him weapons and an O-line and hoped for the best with the D.

Anyway, the way I look at QBs is "who would I take first" and heres my list:

1. Marino
2. Manning
3. Montana
4. Elway

IMO, Manning and Marino are two of the best pure passers the game has ever and will ever see. They fit any system, any team, at any point in history. Elway is the same way, but he was never as accurate as them and a bit more INT prone.

Favre never seems to get any credit in these QB discussions when I think about it...IMO he's very similar, if not BETTER than Elway.

255979119
06-08-2007, 03:23 AM
You know, many choose to think that because it's well...its pretty friggin convenient right? All the success came after Brady came in no?

But...Brady is protected by an O-line and has to throw to guys who catch the ball. Brady also hands it off this "running back" creature.

Theres no denying that Brady is a great QB, but theres no denying that BB is a HOF coach too. Not only that, but he's a HOF coach who surrounded himself with great, HC quality coordinators.

I mean, NO QB ever has done it all by himself. Elway spent most of his career with a defense that was always good and STILL underrated, and didn't win it all until he had a legit running game behind him (not to mention Shanahan's kickass coaching). Montana is the prototype for a WCO QB, and he was surrounded by scary talent all around (O, D, coaching). Manning's Colts realized he was the franchise, gave him weapons and an O-line and hoped for the best with the D.

Anyway, the way I look at QBs is "who would I take first" and heres my list:

1. Marino
2. Manning
3. Montana
4. Elway

IMO, Manning and Marino are two of the best pure passers the game has ever and will ever see. They fit any system, any team, at any point in history. Elway is the same way, but he was never as accurate as them and a bit more INT prone.

Favre never seems to get any credit in these QB discussions when I think about it...IMO he's very similar, if not BETTER than Elway.

Manning was also god awful for most of the playoffs this year. His Defense in the playoffs was so well coached and always in the right position. Manning did do what he needed to do when they needed a score. So, I will give him a pass. :P

Dam8610
06-08-2007, 04:04 AM
My favorite statistic: Bill Belichick failed out of Cleveland and was 5-13 in his tenure with New England before Tom Brady entered the starting lineup. The Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl that year and then two more with virtually the same lineup. Don't you think it might have been Brady that made the difference?

Yeah, it was all Brady. It wasn't that defense that went from near bottom of the barrel to elite in the course of a season and pretty much carried them in the Super Bowl that year. Nope, all Brady. Just like in 03 (Pats had the top ranked defense in the NFL) and 04 (Pats had the 2nd ranked defense in the NFL), it was Brady, not the amazing defenses/schemes Belichick and Crennel concocted, that got the Pats to the pinnacle.

Sniper
06-08-2007, 05:13 AM
Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.

By the way, who the hell is Jabar Gaffney? Reche Caldwell? Since when is Troy Brown Marvin Harrison? The Elway statement may have been one of the dumbest I have ever seen.

Dam8610, I love how when someone mentions the NE success people like you always credit Belichick and Crennel, but when the Colts win, well Peyton did this, Peyton did that. Very fair both ways I see.

Bottom line, I base a QB on if a playoff game is tied, 2 minutes to go, 80 yards away, who do I want as my QB? Not one of you can legitimately say you'd rather have Manning over Brady in that case. Don't even attempt it. Throw out 6 touchdown games in 42-7 wins, I don't care about this. If I want a fantasy football title, give me Peyton. If I want a ring, give me Brady

luckyjackaubrey
06-08-2007, 10:01 AM
you can't compare stats from different eras. In The mid 70's (when I can say I began watching) and 80's passing was far different. 50% was the guage and rarely did anyone top 60% . the aim was the quick strike, the big hit. The yards per catch was much higher too. You would not see a wr averaging 9.9 or 10.4 yrds and stay on the field. I remember the Pats having Morgan and Harrold Jackson both at over 20 yrds per catch or close to it all the time.

Today's dink and dunk inflates those numbers of the modern Qb. So stop using stats to say Manning is better than Elway, that is a very naive arguement

Ewing
06-08-2007, 11:08 AM
Rings have nothing to do with a player being good at all. It determines if he played for a good TEAM or not. Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game(by a pretty good amount). Tom Brady isnt in his league.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5023/colbertfacepalmrc1.jpg

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:06 PM
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5023/colbertfacepalmrc1.jpg

Joe Montana and John Elway... are you people kidding me. Again Peyton is the greatest QB to ever play the game without playing a superbowl. Superbowls have nothing absolutely nothing to do with individual talent. It has to do with being on a good team... Joesph Addie is better than Barry Sanders with that logic. Its silly and you all know it. Peyton grew up to be the perfect QB and that is what he has become. He is absolutely scary at the line of scrimmage. He is the Robo QB that worked.

Again... Does Peyton not have more TD passes than your boy joe? absolutely and only after 9 seasons...
McNabb's first 8 seasons are by far superior to Elways.

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:12 PM
you can't compare stats from different eras. In The mid 70's (when I can say I began watching) and 80's passing was far different. 50% was the guage and rarely did anyone top 60% . the aim was the quick strike, the big hit. The yards per catch was much higher too. You would not see a wr averaging 9.9 or 10.4 yrds and stay on the field. I remember the Pats having Morgan and Harrold Jackson both at over 20 yrds per catch or close to it all the time.

Today's dink and dunk inflates those numbers of the modern Qb. So stop using stats to say Manning is better than Elway, that is a very naive arguement

Interesting Argument but it just doenst hold up... realistically Manning averages more per attempt by over a half of a yard. Elway was also under 60% 3 of his last 4 years in the league... hardly a different era. Elway never threw for over 30 TD's. Essentially you are a jokeing if you think Elway is in Mannings league...

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:14 PM
your only bloody argument is stats. have you watched anyone BUT manning play? has ANYONE used super bowls alone? this is the most poorly constructed argument i've seen in months on this board.

i'm done. i'd frankly rather argue about vick and eli at the same time in a small enclosed space with eacantdraft than listen to you repeat yourself over and over about quarterbacks you never saw play.

Yes i have watched manning play he is ridiculous.... Elway... he was good... McNabb like at best (i am giving him some credit even though his #'s dont hold a flame to McNabb and in 8 seasons McNabb has also won a ton of games without winning a superbowl the same as Elway)

McNabb's First 8 > Elway's first 8. FACT

Acreboy
06-08-2007, 12:15 PM
Joe Montana and John Elway... are you people kidding me. Again Peyton is the greatest QB to ever play the game without playing a superbowl. Superbowls have nothing absolutely nothing to do with individual talent. It has to do with being on a good team... Joesph Addie is better than Barry Sanders with that logic. Its silly and you all know it. Peyton grew up to be the perfect QB and that is what he has become. He is absolutely scary at the line of scrimmage. He is the Robo QB that worked.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/Acreboy/confusedchapelle.gif

Again... Does Peyton not have more TD passes than your boy joe? absolutely and only after 9 seasons...
McNabb's first 8 seasons are by far superior to Elways.Elway also ended his career with 2 SB wins.

Essentially you are a jokeing if you think Elway is in Mannings league...

Elway HOF, Manning not.

Manning will get there. Until he does Manning is not in Elways league.

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:17 PM
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/Acreboy/confusedchapelle.gif

Elway also ended his career with 2 SB wins.



Elway HOF, Manning not.

Manning will get there. Until he does Manning is not in Elways league.

If Manning walked out today he wuold be in the hall of fame. The real question isnt if Manning is better than Elway.. he is thats a fact. The question is Donovan McNabb on pace to be better than Elway. He is Thats a fact.

Also Terrell Davis won 2 superbowls. Elway Who?

Ewing
06-08-2007, 12:18 PM
Joe Montana and John Elway... are you people kidding me. Again Peyton is the greatest QB to ever play the game without playing a superbowl. Superbowls have nothing absolutely nothing to do with individual talent. It has to do with being on a good team... Joesph Addie is better than Barry Sanders with that logic. Its silly and you all know it. Peyton grew up to be the perfect QB and that is what he has become. He is absolutely scary at the line of scrimmage. He is the Robo QB that worked.

Again... Does Peyton not have more TD passes than your boy joe? absolutely and only after 9 seasons...
McNabb's first 8 seasons are by far superior to Elways.

I'm sorry to all the mods but that's the nicest way I can put the following. Shut the **** up. You don't know **** about football. It's people like you that **** up the game for the rest of us who actually understand history and different eras. Not only that, but you're so damn stupid you said "Peyton is the greatest QB ever to play the game without playing a superbowl." He just won Super Bowl MVP five months ago you idiot. Get the **** out and never come back.

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:23 PM
I'm sorry to all the mods but that's the nicest way I can put the following. Shut the **** up. You don't know **** about football. It's people like you that **** up the game for the rest of us who actually understand history and different eras. Not only that, but you're so damn stupid you said "Peyton is the greatest QB ever to play the game without playing a superbowl." He just won Super Bowl MVP five months ago you idiot. Get the **** out and never come back.

You should be banned for this... you are just being a little bit silly i am pretty sure i have demonstrated a superiour football knowledge. I am sorry you have a man crush on elway but regardless of a superbowl or not Manning is better. TEAMS win superbowls... not individual players. Drew Bledsoe won a superbowl does anybody care? No. I understand Elway played back in the day, but that does not excuse him for being awful at throwing the football. I am aware Peyton won the superbowl but that is meaningless on his resume of greatness. Watch the man play he is ridiculuos, unlike that sloppy McNabb wannabe Elway. (McNabb is superior at just about every level through 8 years FACT) Get over your man Crush Peyton is the greatest to ever Play. Opps i forgot Kevin Faulk is a better RB than Barry Sanders right? PUH-LEEEZE

Being on a good team doesnt make you a good player

SubNoize
06-08-2007, 12:24 PM
Yes i have watched manning play he is ridiculous.... Elway... he was good... McNabb like at best (i am giving him some credit even though his #'s dont hold a flame to McNabb and in 8 seasons McNabb has also won a ton of games without winning a superbowl the same as Elway)

McNabb's First 8 > Elway's first 8. FACT

Wow, you are a misinformed, confused individual. I have never seen such disgusting fangirl garbage spewed in my entire life. You do realize that the modern era of football is so pansy when it comes to contact that it pretty much allows for passing stats to be grossly inflated for "entertainment." Marino, Elway and Montana played in a time where the defender could maul a receiver and it was just part of the game, and inspite that were still able to put up solid stats and win big games. When Manning can lead his team in the clutch as well as Elway or Montana you call me, because frankly he's still a choker in big situations. Manning has been consitently bad when the games have mattered, you know the ones in Jan. One Super Bowl victory that was lead mostly by defense and a solid run game isn't going to dispell critics'. Addai better than Barry??? Are you joking? Please tell me you are beacuse if you're not that you should never be able to speak about football ever again...

Shiver
06-08-2007, 12:31 PM
You should be banned for this...

Well he won't be.

you are just being a little bit silly i am pretty sure i have demonstrated a superiour football knowledge.

The fact that you misspelled superior is hilarious, as well as a microcosm for your entire reasoning ability.

I am sorry you have a man crush on elway but regardless of a superbowl or not Manning is better.

Resorting to homosexual innuendo, fantastic..

TEAMS win superbowls... not individual players. Drew Bledsoe won a superbowl does anybody care? No.

Drew Bledsoe didn't win the Super Bowl.

I understand Elway played back in the day, but that does not excuse him for being awful at throwing the football.

It is evident that you don't "understand."

I am aware Peyton won the superbowl but that is meaningless on his resume of greatness.

Watch the man play he is ridiculuos, unlike that sloppy McNabb wannabe Elway.

I don't know what "ridiculuos" is, but it is obvious that your knowledge of football consists of the 21st century, with stats as your only way of measuring players that played in an era that was not passing friendly.

(McNabb is superior at just about every level through 8 years FACT)

John Elway is in the hall of fame. The only time McNabb visits Canton, it will be as a visitor.

Get over your man Crush Peyton is the greatest to ever Play. Opps i forgot Kevin Faulk is a better RB than Barry Sanders right? PUH-LEEEZE

This argument makes my brain hurt.

Being on a good team doesnt make you a good player

See above.

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:31 PM
Wow, you are a misinformed, confused individual. I have never seen such disgusting fangirl garbage spewed in my entire life. You do realize that the modern era of football is so pansy when it comes to contact that it pretty much allows for passing stats to be grossly inflated for "entertainment." Marino, Elway and Montana played in a time where the defender could maul a receiver and it was just part of the game, and inspite that were still able to put up solid stats and win big games. When Manning can lead his team in the clutch as well as Elway or Montana you call me, because frankly he's still a choker in big situations. Manning has been consitently bad when the games have mattered, you know the ones in Jan. One Super Bowl victory that was lead mostly by defense and a solid run game isn't going to dispell critics'. Addai better than Barry??? Are you joking? Please tell me you are beacuse if you're not that you should never be able to speak about football ever again...

Didnt Elway lose his first 3 superbowls... Sounds like choking to me. Also superbowls dont have anything to do with being a Good QB... not in the least. Mario was able to put up good #'s back when "WR's" were getting mauled so that Argument doesnt hold an ounce of water.

Didnt Addai win a superbowl, with your logic he is a better RB than Barry is he not. Of course i know barry is just about the greatest to ever carry the rock, but with your logic Addai is better RIGHT? be consistant

Acreboy
06-08-2007, 12:32 PM
You should be banned for this... you are just being a little bit silly i am pretty sure i have demonstrated a superiour football knowledge. I am sorry you have a man crush on elway but regardless of a superbowl or not Manning is better. TEAMS win superbowls... not individual players. Drew Bledsoe won a superbowl does anybody care? No. I understand Elway played back in the day, but that does not excuse him for being awful at throwing the football. I am aware Peyton won the superbowl but that is meaningless on his resume of greatness. Watch the man play he is ridiculuos, unlike that sloppy McNabb wannabe Elway. (McNabb is superior at just about every level through 8 years FACT) Get over your man Crush Peyton is the greatest to ever Play. Opps i forgot Kevin Faulk is a better RB than Barry Sanders right? PUH-LEEEZE

Being on a good team doesnt make you a good playerI think theres a reason you have negative rep.

JK17
06-08-2007, 12:33 PM
You should be banned for this... you are just being a little bit silly i am pretty sure i have demonstrated a superiour football knowledge. I am sorry you have a man crush on elway but regardless of a superbowl or not Manning is better. TEAMS win superbowls... not individual players. Drew Bledsoe won a superbowl does anybody care? No. I understand Elway played back in the day, but that does not excuse him for being awful at throwing the football. I am aware Peyton won the superbowl but that is meaningless on his resume of greatness. Watch the man play he is ridiculuos, unlike that sloppy McNabb wannabe Elway. (McNabb is superior at just about every level through 8 years FACT) Get over your man Crush Peyton is the greatest to ever Play. Opps i forgot Kevin Faulk is a better RB than Barry Sanders right? PUH-LEEEZE

Being on a good team doesnt make you a good player

The argument of Kevin Faulk being a better RB then Barry Sanders is ridiculous way to prove a point that doesn't work. First of all, people who aruge taht Super Bowls are the only way to judge players, use QBs as their examples. Secondly, Faulk wasn't even a starter, making your argument even further from being conceived as realistic.

Claiming that Donovan McNabb is on pace to be better then Elway as fact is ridiculous and shows you have no respect for anyone playing in another era. Elway, Marino, these guys are miles ahead of Peyton Manning, and no stat will convince people otherwise. Your stats argument is just as absurd as saying Jon Kitna threw for more yards then Tom Brady, he is a better QB. So far you've provided nothing but stats, and if we are just using stats that claim is valid....but its not, because there is more to QBs then just their stats.

I doubt anyone else shares the same view as Peyton being miles ahead of Elway, and being the greatest QB of all time. Stop being blinded by the present, and open your eyes to the fact that the game was different years ago.

You claim Manning is the one that makes the offense great, but then say its teams that win Super Bowls. Manning's team won the Super Bowl, but he is the only reason they are great according to you. He has a cast of first rounders and pro-bowlers receiving and blocking for him, you cannot actually think that he is already the greatest of all time at QB.

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:35 PM
Well he won't be.



The fact that you misspelled superior is hilarious, as well as a microcosm for your entire reasoning ability.



Resorting to homosexual innuendo, fantastic..



Drew Bledsoe didn't win the Super Bowl.



It is evident that you don't "understand."





I don't know what "ridiculuos" is, but it is obvious that your knowledge of football consists of the 21st century, with stats as your only way of measuring players that played in an era that was not passing friendly.



John Elway is in the hall of fame. The only time McNabb visits Canton, it will be as a visitor.



This argument makes my brain hurt.



See above.

I see you play favorites, and i wasnt talking about anything sexual about it unless you seem to get off thinking about that. I was saying "man crush" a heterosexual man crush.
Bledsoe did win a superbowl, check his ring finger.
Mario Did just fine didnt he, stop covering for Elways suckiness. Elway shouldnt have been throwing to the other team so damn often.
McNabb's first 8 years are better than elways on just about every level are they not?

Ewing
06-08-2007, 12:35 PM
You should be banned for this... you are just being a little bit silly i am pretty sure i have demonstrated a superiour football knowledge. I am sorry you have a man crush on elway but regardless of a superbowl or not Manning is better. TEAMS win superbowls... not individual players. Drew Bledsoe won a superbowl does anybody care? No. I understand Elway played back in the day, but that does not excuse him for being awful at throwing the football. I am aware Peyton won the superbowl but that is meaningless on his resume of greatness. Watch the man play he is ridiculuos, unlike that sloppy McNabb wannabe Elway. (McNabb is superior at just about every level through 8 years FACT) Get over your man Crush Peyton is the greatest to ever Play. Opps i forgot Kevin Faulk is a better RB than Barry Sanders right? PUH-LEEEZE

Being on a good team doesnt make you a good player

1. You should be banned for having little knowledge of the sport and being a possible troll.

2. Superior football knowledge? Sorry, but the only knowledge you have is stats. You have no concept of era and actual talent.

3. I don't have a man crush on Elway. I think Manning is one of the top twenty quarterbacks of all-time at this point but for you to say he is EASILY the GREATEST is just insane.

4. Yes, I am aware teams win Super Bowls. I'll be the first to tell you that the rings arguement is stupid. The thing I'm pissed about is for lack of respect for intelligent members of this forum.

5. Drew Bledsoe won a Super Bowl as a back-up quarterback.

6. Awful at throwing the football? I'm sorry but I'm done. I'm done reading your posts. Get out.

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:36 PM
The argument of Kevin Faulk being a better RB then Barry Sanders is ridiculous way to prove a point that doesn't work. First of all, people who aruge taht Super Bowls are the only way to judge players, use QBs as their examples. Secondly, Faulk wasn't even a starter, making your argument even further from being conceived as realistic.

Claiming that Donovan McNabb is on pace to be better then Elway as fact is ridiculous and shows you have no respect for anyone playing in another era. Elway, Marino, these guys are miles ahead of Peyton Manning, and no stat will convince people otherwise. Your stats argument is just as absurd as saying Jon Kitna threw for more yards then Tom Brady, he is a better QB. So far you've provided nothing but stats, and if we are just using stats that claim is valid....but its not, because there is more to QBs then just their stats.

I doubt anyone else shares the same view as Peyton being miles ahead of Elway, and being the greatest QB of all time. Stop being blinded by the present, and open your eyes to the fact that the game was different years ago.

You claim Manning is the one that makes the offense great, but then say its teams that win Super Bowls. Manning's team won the Super Bowl, but he is the only reason they are great according to you. He has a cast of first rounders and pro-bowlers receiving and blocking for him, you cannot actually think that he is already the greatest of all time at QB.


Mario put up great #'s stop covering for the fact Elway threw to the other team often.

Also McNabb's first 8 years are better than Elways, explain to me how they are not

P-L
06-08-2007, 12:39 PM
You do realize that football wasn't invented in 1998, right?

JK17
06-08-2007, 12:40 PM
Mario put up great #'s stop covering for the fact Elway threw to the other team often.

Also McNabb's first 8 years are better than Elways, explain to me how they are not

Who the hell is Mario? Marino? Unless I'm being completely stupid right now I can't understand what argument your making here.

No, McNabb's first eight years are not better then Elway's, and even if they were, a QB is not better then someone else because of their first eight years alone, Elway had a HOF career, won Super Bowls, won games, and is most known for his amazing comebacks. You'll just say QB's don't win games, teams do, and make some ridiculous points about how with that logic Addai is better then Barry Sanders, when it really doesn't apply. Elway led his team to Super Bowls though, and won games for them in overtime and the fourth quarter, etc.

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:40 PM
1. You should be banned for having little knowledge of the sport and being a possible troll.

2. Superior football knowledge? Sorry, but the only knowledge you have is stats. You have no concept of era and actual talent.

3. I don't have a man crush on Elway. I think Manning is one of the top twenty quarterbacks of all-time at this point but for you to say he is EASILY the GREATEST is just insane.

4. Yes, I am aware teams win Super Bowls. I'll be the first to tell you that the rings arguement is stupid. The thing I'm pissed about is for lack of respect for intelligent members of this forum.

5. Drew Bledsoe won a Super Bowl as a back-up quarterback.

6. Awful at throwing the football? I'm sorry but I'm done. I'm done reading your posts. Get out.

1) Its obvious that i have tons of knowledge.
2) Stats are one of my many talents, as is destroying people in arguments by using logical arguments and not simple mancrush arguments of "the golden days"
3) Top 20 LOL he is one of the top 20 i guess... the # is 1
4) It is a stupid argument make sure you tell those people. Atleast i bring something to the table, which are called facts.
5) SUPERBOWL CHAMP HE IS BETTER THAN MARIO RIGHT.... Puh-leeze
6) I used awful as a comparasion to peyton, McNabb is a very good QB, Elway is around there... a bit lower.

JK17
06-08-2007, 12:42 PM
1) Its obvious that i have tons of knowledge.
2) Stats are one of my many talents, as is destroying people in arguments by using logical arguments and not simple mancrush arguments of "the golden days"
3) Top 20 LOL he is one of the top 20 i guess... the # is 1
4) It is a stupid argument make sure you tell those people. Atleast i bring something to the table, which are called facts.
5) SUPERBOWL CHAMP HE IS BETTER THAN MARIO RIGHT.... Puh-leeze
6) I used awful as a comparasion to peyton, McNabb is a very good QB, Elway is around there... a bit lower.

You bring nothing to this conversation but baseless comments and arguments that don't make sense. Most of your answers to his comments aren't even answering what he said, just you attacking something that you heard somewhere else and sort of applies.

Go home. I'm done arguing this.

Ewing
06-08-2007, 12:42 PM
I didn't even read his last post but here's a message to everyone in the forum. I already got screwed but this guy so I give you this...

http://enigma.dune.net/~eric/Do-not-feed-the-troll.PNG

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:44 PM
Who the hell is Mario? Marino? Unless I'm being completely stupid right now I can't understand what argument your making here.

No, McNabb's first eight years are not better then Elway's, and even if they were, a QB is not better then someone else because of their first eight years alone, Elway had a HOF career, won Super Bowls, won games, and is most known for his amazing comebacks. You'll just say QB's don't win games, teams do, and make some ridiculous points about how with that logic Addai is better then Barry Sanders, when it really doesn't apply. Elway led his team to Super Bowls though, and won games for them in overtime and the fourth quarter, etc.


How are they not? >>>> even if they were... (they are).. I agree, McNabb hasnt played his last years yet, however... HE IS BETTER FOR THE FIRST 8. Elway is most known atleast for me... by completing 56% of his passes.... I guess you people think about HIS TEAM coming back in games or whatever... McNabb has a pretty great comeback in his career a game that will be shown on NFL classic for years, the 4th and 26 game. You mean HIS TEAM won superbowls and HIS team on games in the 4th Q and overtime... He was just a member of the team. Also maybe if he wasnt sucking it up throwing so many damn picks he wouldnt need comebacks.

Again the manning argument is over. Manning is alot better than Elway. Explain to me how McNabbs first 8 years were not better than Elways.

Severe Punishment
06-08-2007, 12:44 PM
the genius logic that rings determines the greatest QBs?

Since when could a QB singlehandedly do anything?

And why are people always crediting W-L to a QB? What kind of genius logic is that? I wonder what the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's would look like with no O-lines, good coaching, and weapons around them? Those guys get no credit?

I love how some QB arguments get down to who has the better record...because QBs and QBs only decide games. Thats why Rex Grossman was the second best QB in the NFL last year, HE'S A SUPER BOWL QB!!11

I mean, Peyton Manning and Dan Marino are/were OBVIOUSLY HUGELY overrated because they didn't have RINGS!! I realize it's the goal and etc...but a QB that produces...alot is more likely to get you there no? No? Is this some crazy guy's brain overthinking the simple results oriented logic of football?

Anyway, I need someone to break this down to my obviously n00b mind.

*Edit* And I love how it usually depends on how well the QB produces, and just how much you like the guy/team. If it's a high producing QB on a really good team, he's got a really good team around him so he's overrated. If he's on a bad team or lacks a supporting cast (defense or something) that sucks...he OBVIOUSLY is overrated because he can't singlehandedly win anything. How does that even work?
You're absolutely correct. I mean how overrated is leadership.
All you really need are athletic people and if they're more athletic at every area than the players they go against ..then logic would suggest that the team with the most talent wins...everytime.

...this is by far the worst argument I've ever heard regarding QB's and a correlation to winning. Why exactly did you make this gross overstatement based on the QB, why stop there...why not say the exact same pointless arguement about coaching staffs and trainers,...hell let's bring in owners and fans in on this too.
I mean seriously, if the Cardinals just had more enthusiastic fans than anyone else their S.B. trophies could line the roads to their stadium.



someone needs a reality check in the worst way.

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:47 PM
You're absolutely correct. I mean how overrated is leadership.
All you really need are athletic people and if they're more athletic at every area than the players they go against ..then logic would suggest that the team with the most talent wins...everytime.

...this is by far the worst argument I've ever heard regarding QB's and a correlation to winning. Why exactly did you make this gross overstatement based on the QB, why stop there...why not say the exact same pointless arguement about coaching staffs and trainers,...hell let's bring in owners and fans in on this too.
I mean seriously, if the Cardinals just had more enthusiastic fans than anyone else their S.B. trophies could line the roads to their stadium.



someone needs a reality check in the worst way.

I dont even know what you are talking about.

Plain and simple Manning is the best QB to ever put on a jersey, Elway is vastly overrated and there is no doubt that McNabb's career through 8 seasons has been better than Elway's first 8.

Severe Punishment
06-08-2007, 12:50 PM
I dont even know what you are talking about.

Plain and simple Manning is the best QB to ever put on a jersey, Elway is vastly overrated and there is no doubt that McNabb's career through 8 seasons has been better than Elway's first 8.
Hi , I'm earth...have we met ?

Neo
06-08-2007, 12:52 PM
1) Explain how McNabb's first 8 years were not better (alot better) than Elways.
2) Manning is obviously the greatest QB to ever strap them up. I am sorry for all you people who for some reason hate on him. He is absolutely ridiculous at football.

Neo
06-08-2007, 01:04 PM
I think theres a reason you have negative rep.

I didnt have a negitive rep until people got all bitter that i dont agree that Elway or Marino or Montana or Johnny U are better than Manning, then i pretty much dominate the argument. So they give me a negitive rep, the mods obviously are playing favorites which i find as ridiculous. Pretty much the people cannot argue logically and cannot defend Elway's 56% completion % and his (lesser McNabb type #'s) so they Negitive rep me. It is really ridiculous. I mean i guess i would be bitter too if i sat around in my house wearing a jersey of some rich guy.

Acreboy
06-08-2007, 01:31 PM
I dont even know what you are talking about.

Plain and simple Manning is the best QB to ever put on a jersey, Elway is vastly overrated and there is no doubt that McNabb's career through 8 seasons has been better than Elway's first 8.And we measure how good someone is through their first 8 seasons? McNabb might not ever be the same after his last injury.

Hell Gayle Sayers is one of the best ever and he didn't even play 8 seasons, he only played 6..

I didnt have a negitive rep until people got all bitter that i dont agree that Elway or Marino or Montana or Johnny U are better than Manning, then i pretty much dominate the argument. So they give me a negitive rep, the mods obviously are playing favorites which i find as ridiculous. Pretty much the people cannot argue logically and cannot defend Elway's 56% completion % and his (lesser McNabb type #'s) so they Negitive rep me. It is really ridiculous. I mean i guess i would be bitter too if i sat around in my house wearing a jersey of some rich guy.Dude..

Montana>Manning.

Don't even try.

Mr. Stiller
06-08-2007, 01:54 PM
I didnt have a negitive rep until people got all bitter that i dont agree that Elway or Marino or Montana or Johnny U are better than Manning, then i pretty much dominate the argument. So they give me a negitive rep, the mods obviously are playing favorites which i find as ridiculous. Pretty much the people cannot argue logically and cannot defend Elway's 56% completion % and his (lesser McNabb type #'s) so they Negitive rep me. It is really ridiculous. I mean i guess i would be bitter too if i sat around in my house wearing a jersey of some rich guy.

I again, Wonder what mannings #'s would look like if he was on those Elway teams of the late 80's and early 90's.

Pre Rod Smith/Ed McCafree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Elway

Sniper
06-08-2007, 03:24 PM
I'm sorry to all the mods but that's the nicest way I can put the following. Shut the **** up. You don't know **** about football. It's people like you that **** up the game for the rest of us who actually understand history and different eras. Not only that, but you're so damn stupid you said "Peyton is the greatest QB ever to play the game without playing a superbowl." He just won Super Bowl MVP five months ago you idiot. Get the **** out and never come back.

Wow...my sentiments exactly.. Bless you!

SenorGato
06-08-2007, 04:48 PM
your only bloody argument is stats. have you watched anyone BUT manning play? has ANYONE used super bowls alone? this is the most poorly constructed argument i've seen in months on this board.

Well...in his defense (kinda)...all other people use sometimes are romanticized intangibles about guys usually taken from one or two great, big playoff games.

Hell, everyone was saying Elway was a huge choker before they won a Super Bowl. And yes, I know its not true totally because they would look completely different without him, but he DID have some pretty good defenses too.

SenorGato
06-08-2007, 04:55 PM
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/Acreboy/confusedchapelle.gif

Elway also ended his career with 2 SB wins.



Elway HOF, Manning not.

Manning will get there. Until he does Manning is not in Elways league.

1. Elway's team, the Broncos, won those. He had an excellent coach, RB, and some pretty good defenses. You fail to mention the 3 lost Super Bowls. I'm not saying Elway isn't a great QB, I'm saying "Elway also ended his career with 2 SB wins" is selling alot of people really short there.

2. WTF? Peyton Manning is as big a lock for the HOF as their is in this league right now.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
06-08-2007, 07:06 PM
I see you play favorites, and i wasnt talking about anything sexual about it unless you seem to get off thinking about that. I was saying "man crush" a heterosexual man crush.
Bledsoe did win a superbowl, check his ring finger.
Mario Did just fine didnt he, stop covering for Elways suckiness. Elway shouldnt have been throwing to the other team so damn often.
McNabb's first 8 years are better than elways on just about every level are they not?

Okay, who the hell is Mario? Dude you imported Mario onto Madden???

Acreboy
06-08-2007, 07:26 PM
1. Elway's team, the Broncos, won those. He had an excellent coach, RB, and some pretty good defenses. You fail to mention the 3 lost Super Bowls. I'm not saying Elway isn't a great QB, I'm saying "Elway also ended his career with 2 SB wins" is selling alot of people really short there.

2. WTF? Peyton Manning is as big a lock for the HOF as their is in this league right now.Elway went back to back. The RB situation shouldn't hold water because as long as Shanahan has been there it's always been "insert RB" and have success. Shanahan knew this and thats why he traded Portis for Bailey. If Portis was important enough he would still be a Bronco.

Also, whats the WTF for? Everyone knows Manning is a lock, but he aint in Canton right now.

Okay, who the hell is Mario? Dude you imported Mario onto Madden???If Mario is a DB and he gets beat you can fire shells at the WR. Awesomeness.

reese
06-08-2007, 07:33 PM
my top 3 is

1. marino
2. elway
3. favre

those guys i think in any system on any team and in any era would be the best

manning, when he is done will be up close to the top but he isnt there yet...if he is pressured alot he screws up...marino while not being able to run had a great pocket presence that manning doesnt have...favre & elway= playmakers...they put up numbers...they are leaders...they lead comebacks...those 3 are hands down the best to me....i leave montana out only becuz i dont think that he would be who he is had it not been for the situation he played in...look at it this way...put my 3 in montana's shoes..do they win those 4 super bowls? i think yes....put montana in any of there shoes and would he have had the careers that they did? i dont think so..but thats just my humble opinion

Caddy
06-08-2007, 10:06 PM
Okay, who the hell is Mario? Dude you imported Mario onto Madden???

He obviously just left out the N, not to hard to work out.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
06-08-2007, 10:07 PM
He obviously just left out the N, not to hard to work out.

But he did it in like 3 posts

PoopSandwich
06-08-2007, 10:19 PM
Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.

Worst comment ever....

More like "Who the hell is Dallas Clark, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Joseph Addai."

Thats how nobodies become good.

SenorGato
06-09-2007, 02:37 AM
Elway went back to back. The RB situation shouldn't hold water because as long as Shanahan has been there it's always been "insert RB" and have success. Shanahan knew this and thats why he traded Portis for Bailey. If Portis was important enough he would still be a Bronco.

Also, whats the WTF for? Everyone knows Manning is a lock, but he aint in Canton right now.

If Mario is a DB and he gets beat you can fire shells at the WR. Awesomeness.

1. You're ignoring that I used Shanahan as a reason. Elway was a much better QB with him as a coach (and a running game). And he was part of a 50+ man TEAM that went back to back.

2. What relevance does it have? Manning is obviously a HOFer...the fact that he's a garauntee before his career is even close to done says alot no?

3. I don't even know what that means.

Caddy
06-09-2007, 04:08 AM
But he did it in like 3 posts

He obviously made the mistake more than once.??

DeathbyStat
06-09-2007, 02:55 PM
QBs are like Presidents they get too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad.

Neo
06-09-2007, 03:06 PM
Nobody has yet to explain to me how Elway is even in Manning's league so i'll assume i have already won that. Now explain to me how McNabb at this point in his career isnt considered a significantly better QB than Elway after 8 seasons.

neko4
06-09-2007, 03:17 PM
1) Explain how McNabb's first 8 years were not better (alot better) than Elways.
2) Manning is obviously the greatest QB to ever strap them up. I am sorry for all you people who for some reason hate on him. He is absolutely ridiculous at football.

Hmm probably cuz
Manning chokes in the playoffs!

I didnt have a negitive rep until people got all bitter that i dont agree that Elway or Marino or Montana or Johnny U are better than Manning, then i pretty much dominate the argument. So they give me a negitive rep, the mods obviously are playing favorites which i find as ridiculous. Pretty much the people cannot argue logically and cannot defend Elway's 56% completion % and his (lesser McNabb type #'s) so they Negitive rep me. It is really ridiculous. I mean i guess i would be bitter too if i sat around in my house wearing a jersey of some rich guy.

You truly have no respect for the NFL's rich history and think #'s are the end all be all.

Nobody has yet to explain to me how Elway is even in Manning's league so i'll assume i have already won that. Now explain to me how McNabb at this point in his career isnt considered a significantly better QB than Elway after 8 seasons.

Hmm lets see
because staats are only a small battle, and Elway has what 2 or 3 great comebacks in his career. Plus Elway had been a great QB all throughout his career. McNabb probably wont make it to 11 or 12 season if he keeps getting hurt.

Anyway my list:
1-Johnny U
2-Montana
3-Baugh (Put up crazy stats for his day)
4-Elway (The greatest comeback QB ever, good throughout his career)
5-Marino (Most prolific on crap teams)
6-Otto Graham (Everyone please look him up)
7-Brett Favre (Close to breaking Marino's TD record in a shorter time, would be ahead of him if not for INT's)
8-Staubach
9-Starr
10-Tarkenton

Neo
06-09-2007, 03:26 PM
Hmm probably cuz
Manning chokes in the playoffs!



You truly have no respect for the NFL's rich history and think #'s are the end all be all.



Hmm lets see
because staats are only a small battle, and Elway has what 2 or 3 great comebacks in his career. Plus Elway had been a great QB all throughout his career. McNabb probably wont make it to 11 or 12 season if he keeps getting hurt.

Anyway my list:
1-Johnny U
2-Montana
3-Baugh (Put up crazy stats for his day)
4-Elway (The greatest comeback QB ever, good throughout his career)
5-Marino (Most prolific on crap teams)
6-Otto Graham (Everyone please look him up)
7-Brett Favre (Close to breaking Marino's TD record in a shorter time, would be ahead of him if not for INT's)
8-Staubach
9-Starr
10-Tarkenton


1) His team doesnt win in the playoffs... believe it or not more than one player suits up. Winning Superbowls has nothing to do with being a good QB. Manning is better than anyone on that list. Johnny U lol... please. People tend to remember the past having some golden ray of sunshine over it. You people arent making any respectable arguments. FACT is Manning is the best QB to ever put on a uniform.

BTW just admit there is NO DOUBT that McNabb's Career thus far is better than Elways at the same point, and it isnt even close. McNabb dominates Elway in just about every part of the game at this point. Just say that McNabb>Elway.

Manning > hahah Johnny U and Montana and the rest of those decent players

draftguru151
06-09-2007, 03:28 PM
My goodness you just called Unitas and Montana decent players.

neko4
06-09-2007, 03:36 PM
1) His team doesnt win in the playoffs... believe it or not more than one player suits up. Winning Superbowls has nothing to do with being a good QB. Manning is better than anyone on that list. Johnny U lol... please. People tend to remember the past having some golden ray of sunshine over it. You people arent making any respectable arguments. FACT is Manning is the best QB to ever put on a uniform.

BTW just admit there is NO DOUBT that McNabb's Career thus far is better than Elways at the same point, and it isnt even close. McNabb dominates Elway in just about every part of the game at this point. Just say that McNabb>Elway.

Manning > hahah Johnny U and Montana and the rest of those decent players

Dude i really cant stand you? You probably dont even know what Johnny U had done in his career.

Dad died while he was young, Manning's dad tutored him at a very young age.
Was considered undersized, Manning is of the ideal size.
Won first sudden death game, Manning has choked in playoffs.
3 Time MVP (only Favre has matched that), Manning has won 2
Mobile, Manning cant run
First QB to throw 40,000, despite 12-14 game seasons
47 consecutive games w/ a TD, a record that still stands
U was drafted in the 19th round, Manning a top 10 pick

Neo
06-09-2007, 04:30 PM
Dude i really cant stand you? You probably dont even know what Johnny U had done in his career.

Dad died while he was young, Manning's dad tutored him at a very young age.
Was considered undersized, Manning is of the ideal size.
Won first sudden death game, Manning has choked in playoffs.
3 Time MVP (only Favre has matched that), Manning has won 2
Mobile, Manning cant run
First QB to throw 40,000, despite 12-14 game seasons
47 consecutive games w/ a TD, a record that still stands
U was drafted in the 19th round, Manning a top 10 pick

Dad dying while young is apparently supposed to make me think he is better at football. Manning's Dad tutored him at a very young age... one of many reasons why he is better.

Was considered undersized- (dead dad must not have given him proper genetics) Manning Perfect size another reason why he is better.

Teams win playoff games from the best of my knowledge not just one player.
40,000 yards.... but you use 12-14 game season as if it is something that would make that more impressive... it isnt, a single season stat would be impressive if you were going to bring up 12 to 14 game season... not career (silly).
Wasnt drafted till 19th round apparently makes him better? that isnt logical.

That has to be the worst logical defense of Johnny U i have ever seen, You made exactly zero good points. I am sitting here and laughing at your argumentation. Just because he overachevied and overcame a "rough life" or other such nonsense still doesnt make him a better player. I mean this is silly am i right guys, I mean seriously get off Doug Flute seniors junk. He still couldnt hold Peytons Jock.

Plus talk about Choking... Johnny U is king Superbowl 3 anybody. (btw speaking of god awful QB's how about Joe Namath.)

Severe Punishment
06-09-2007, 04:34 PM
My goodness you just called Unitas and Montana decent players.
"Which brings me to my next point kids, Don't smoke crack" - Lawrence Taylor.

JK17
06-09-2007, 05:34 PM
Can we just lock this thread, all it consists of is Neo making the same, bad points that no one with an educated sports opinion will bother replying to...

SubNoize
06-09-2007, 05:45 PM
OK so I'm going to scoop to Neo's stats level and destroy his arguments...
OK for fun lets assume Manning will play 5 more years, giving him a 14 year career, pretty long for a QB...

1. Dan Marino, Mia 61,361

2. John Elway, Den 51,475

3. x-Brett Favre, Atl-GB 50,990

4. Warren Moon, Hou-Min-Sea-KC 49,325

5. Fran Tarkenton, Min-NYG 47,003

6. x-Vinny Testaverde TB-Cle-Bal-NYJ-Dal-NYJ 44,799

7. Dan Fouts, SD 43,040

8. x-Drew Bledsoe, NE-Buf-Dal 41,471

9. Joe Montana, SF-KC 40,551

10. Johnny Unitas, Bal-SD 40,239

11. Dave Krieg, Sea-KC-Det-Ari-Chi-Ten 38,147

12. Boomer Esiason, Cin-NYJ-Ari-Cin 37,920

13. Jim Kelly, Buf 35,467

14. Jim Everett, LA-NO-SD 34,837

15. Jim Hart, StL-Wash 34,665

16. Steve DeBerg, SF-Den-TB-KC-TB-Mia-Atl 34,241

17. John Hadl, LA Rams-GB-LA Chargers-SD 33,503

18. Phil Simms, NYG 33,462

19. Steve Young, TB-SF 33,124

20. Troy Aikman, Dal 32,942

21. Ken Anderson, Cin 32,838

22. Sonny Jurgensen, Wash-Phil 32,224

23. John Brodie, SF 31,548

24. Norm Snead, Was-Phil-NYG-Min-SF 30,797

25. x-Peyton Manning, Ind 30,756

If Peyton passed for 4,000 yards in each of those season he wouldn't pass those decent QBs Marino or Elway... That's assuming he can do so.

. Dan Marino 420

2. x-Brett Favre 388

3. Fran Tarkenton 342

4. John Elway 300

5. Warren Moon 291

6. Johnny Unitas 290

7. Joe Montana 273

8. x-Vinny Testaverde 268

9. Dave Krieg 261

10. Sonny Jurgensen 255

11. Dan Fouts 254

12. Boomer Esiason 247

13. John Hadl 244

14. Len Dawson 239

15. Jim Kelly 237

16. George Blanda 236

17. x-Drew Bledsoe 232

17. Steve Young 232

19. x-Peyton Manning 225

20. John Brodie 214

21. Terry Bradshaw 212

21. Y.A. Tittle 212

23. Jim Hart 209

24. Randall Cunningham 207

25. Jim Everett 203

26. Roman Gabriel 201

Lets say Peyton also got 30 TDs in each of those season, he wouldn't pass Marino or Elway, leaving him #3 in yet another category...

. Dan Marino 4,967

2. x-Brett Favre 4,426

3. John Elway 4,123

4. Warren Moon 3,988

5. Fran Tarkenton 3,686

6. x-Vinny Testaverde 3,656

7. x-Drew Bledsoe 3,573

8. Joe Montana 3,409

9. Dan Fouts 3,297

10. Dave Krieg 3,105

11. Boomer Esiason 2,969

12. Troy Aikman 2,898

13. Jim Kelly 2,874

13. Steve DeBerg 2,874

15. Jim Everett 2,841

16. Johnny Unitas 2,830

17. Steve Young 2,667

18. Ken Anderson 2,654

19. Jim Hart 2,593

20. x-Peyton Manning 2,582

21. Phil Simms 2,576

22. Rich Gannon 2,533

Peyton has averaged 320 completions per year, add that times 5 which gives him about 1,614 more completions add that onto existing and Mr. Manning would be yet again #3 barely surpassing the "average" John Elway.

So tell me Neo, where in finishing about 3rd in every category here, is Manning qualifying as the undisputed best ever??? To me by your logic he's going to end up 3rd best... Thank you for being an idiot, feel free to exit to the left and get the fudge out. buh bye

Neo
06-09-2007, 05:57 PM
OK so I'm going to scoop to Neo's stats level and destroy his arguments...
OK for fun lets assume Manning will play 5 more years, giving him a 14 year career, pretty long for a QB...

1. Dan Marino, Mia 61,361

2. John Elway, Den 51,475

3. x-Brett Favre, Atl-GB 50,990

4. Warren Moon, Hou-Min-Sea-KC 49,325

5. Fran Tarkenton, Min-NYG 47,003

6. x-Vinny Testaverde TB-Cle-Bal-NYJ-Dal-NYJ 44,799

7. Dan Fouts, SD 43,040

8. x-Drew Bledsoe, NE-Buf-Dal 41,471

9. Joe Montana, SF-KC 40,551

10. Johnny Unitas, Bal-SD 40,239

11. Dave Krieg, Sea-KC-Det-Ari-Chi-Ten 38,147

12. Boomer Esiason, Cin-NYJ-Ari-Cin 37,920

13. Jim Kelly, Buf 35,467

14. Jim Everett, LA-NO-SD 34,837

15. Jim Hart, StL-Wash 34,665

16. Steve DeBerg, SF-Den-TB-KC-TB-Mia-Atl 34,241

17. John Hadl, LA Rams-GB-LA Chargers-SD 33,503

18. Phil Simms, NYG 33,462

19. Steve Young, TB-SF 33,124

20. Troy Aikman, Dal 32,942

21. Ken Anderson, Cin 32,838

22. Sonny Jurgensen, Wash-Phil 32,224

23. John Brodie, SF 31,548

24. Norm Snead, Was-Phil-NYG-Min-SF 30,797

25. x-Peyton Manning, Ind 30,756

If Peyton passed for 4,000 yards in each of those season he wouldn't pass those decent QBs Marino or Elway... That's assuming he can do so.

. Dan Marino 420

2. x-Brett Favre 388

3. Fran Tarkenton 342

4. John Elway 300

5. Warren Moon 291

6. Johnny Unitas 290

7. Joe Montana 273

8. x-Vinny Testaverde 268

9. Dave Krieg 261

10. Sonny Jurgensen 255

11. Dan Fouts 254

12. Boomer Esiason 247

13. John Hadl 244

14. Len Dawson 239

15. Jim Kelly 237

16. George Blanda 236

17. x-Drew Bledsoe 232

17. Steve Young 232

19. x-Peyton Manning 225

20. John Brodie 214

21. Terry Bradshaw 212

21. Y.A. Tittle 212

23. Jim Hart 209

24. Randall Cunningham 207

25. Jim Everett 203

26. Roman Gabriel 201

Lets say Peyton also got 30 TDs in each of those season, he wouldn't pass Marino or Elway, leaving him #3 in yet another category...

. Dan Marino 4,967

2. x-Brett Favre 4,426

3. John Elway 4,123

4. Warren Moon 3,988

5. Fran Tarkenton 3,686

6. x-Vinny Testaverde 3,656

7. x-Drew Bledsoe 3,573

8. Joe Montana 3,409

9. Dan Fouts 3,297

10. Dave Krieg 3,105

11. Boomer Esiason 2,969

12. Troy Aikman 2,898

13. Jim Kelly 2,874

13. Steve DeBerg 2,874

15. Jim Everett 2,841

16. Johnny Unitas 2,830

17. Steve Young 2,667

18. Ken Anderson 2,654

19. Jim Hart 2,593

20. x-Peyton Manning 2,582

21. Phil Simms 2,576

22. Rich Gannon 2,533

Peyton has averaged 320 completions per year, add that times 5 which gives him about 1,614 more completions add that onto existing and Mr. Manning would be yet again #3 barely surpassing the "average" John Elway.

So tell me Neo, where in finishing about 3rd in every category here, is Manning qualifying as the undisputed best ever??? To me by your logic he's going to end up 3rd best... Thank you for being an idiot, feel free to exit to the left and get the fudge out. buh bye

Look how dumb this guy is using old stats and completely destroying all credibility. HAHAHAHAHAHAH

Thats cute only giving him 5 more seasons or so considering all the QB's that would be above him have played longer. Its a silly stat comparasion on your part, and considering Peyton hasnt ever missed a game ever, he could be playing the next 10 seasons. All you can do is his first 9 vs other QB's.... and Peyton wins my friend. Peyton's stats year in and year out are better than the best seasons of John Elways career. Joe Montana was good, So was Marino however, if you want to be realistic there is no doubt that Manning is better. Also giving Peyton only 4000 a year for the next 5 is underrating him... All those QB's played 15 seasons or more.

How sad is this... Peyton Manning in 9 years already has passed Joe Montana's Career TD mark, and he will pass his yardage in next year. Montana is 2/3's Manning... its sad... really it is

Oh and btw when you want to act smart get updated stats... Dumb dumb dumb dumb

Neo
06-09-2007, 06:02 PM
Can we just lock this thread, all it consists of is Neo making the same, bad points that no one with an educated sports opinion will bother replying to...

Again explain how Peyton isnt the best QB of all time...

Whats with all the Peyton hate, he is just that good... appreciate it, you are getting to watch the best QB to ever play the game. Do you people put on old VCR tapes and fast foward through all the Elway picks to get the 1 or 2 plays he has done well.

JK17
06-09-2007, 06:12 PM
Thats cute only giving him 5 more seasons or so considering all the QB's that would be above him have played longer. Its a silly stat comparasion on your part, and considering Peyton hasnt ever missed a game ever, he could be playing the next 10 seasons. All you can do is his first 9 vs other QB's.... and Peyton wins my friend. Peyton's stats year in and year out are better than the best seasons of John Elways career. Joe Montana was good, So was Marino however, if you want to be realistic there is no doubt that Manning is better. Also giving Peyton only 4000 a year for the next 5 is underrating him... All those QB's played 15 seasons or more.

How sad is this... Peyton Manning in 9 years already has passed Joe Montana's Career TD mark, and he will pass his yardage in next year. Montana is 2/3's Manning... its sad... really it is

Okay, I'm going to break what I said earlier, I can't watch this anymore.

Montana 2/3's Manning? Just stop being ridiculous right now. Not only are you only looking at his damn career TD's in making that assumption, but on top of that Montana has done more in his career then Manning ever will.

For all your silly stats arguments, which every poster with a brain, or sports fanatic, or anaylst, in America can tell you does not tell the whole story, you simply blow off intangibles, leadership, wins, and championships as not a big deal.

John Elway led his team to 47 game-winning or game-saving drives in the fourth Quarter. Now I know you'll just say "John Elway's team did that", but think of the longevity of his career, and the common denominator on all those teams (him). He's the only quarterback to get his team to the Super Bowl five times over his career. Manning has got his team there once despite arguably having a better team then Elway could think of at points in his career. Not to mention Elway's stats are impressive, his wins are amazing, and despite what you think, Quarterbacks are the most importnat position in showing leadership on the field, and that is what is responsible for those late-game comebacks, or playoff wins. Elway also wasn't a bad runner either, a dimension Manning does not have.

Dan Marino, if we are arguing statistics like you like to, was a passing God. He leads every QB in the history of the NFL in almost every single passing mark, despite never getting his team to the big game. He was every bit and more the Quarterback Manning was and hopes to be, and you can't deny that, so I won't bother defending Marino anymore.

Joe Montana was known as the Comeback Kid, earning 31 come from behind victories in the 4th quarter, when the game was on the line. Clutch plays such as "the catch" and his 92 yard touchdown drive against the Bengals in Super Bowl XXIII are more reasons why he is one of the best, if not the best Quarterback of all time, better then Manning. Again, you'll say his team made those plays, but the Quarterback is the one who led the drives, and made the plays with the game on the line. In four super bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes, for 1,142 yards and 11 touchdowns, with zero interceptions, giving him a QB rating of 127.8. Montana won each Super Bowl he played in, and was MVP in three of them, the only player to ever do so. Peyton Manning do that yet?

It's not even to say that one day Manning may be in that upper-echleon of Quarterbacks. To say so now though is ridiculous, and to say he is the absolute best of all time without debate? Well, that's just not understanding football. Thsoe are just three quarterbacks, cases could be made for Johnny Unitas, Otto Grahm, any of these great Quarterbacks who weren't around for the golden age of passing we are in now, or players who were every bit the QB Manning was, but weren't in the same situation he was blessed to fall into (Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Addai, Edge, Stokley (amazing #3 WR), that O-Line) over the years.

You're arguments are insane, and no one believes what you say, do you even? And for the record, simply ignoring every one else's argument and saying there is no debate, you won an argument, is not winning, its just ignorance.

SubNoize
06-09-2007, 06:23 PM
Ok so my stats were a year behind my bad, but I guess I can still prove Peyton is #2 behind Marino through 9 years...

Peyton 144 GP 3131 completions on 4890 attempts for 64% completion rate.
37586 yards passing. 275 TDs and 139 INT for a QB Rating of 94.4

Marino 133 GP 2798 completions on 4181 attempts for 66% completion rate.
35386 yards passing. 266 TDs and 136 INT for a QB rating of 91.3

BUT!!!! Marino played 2 short season in his first 9 years starting on 9 games his rook season and playing in a strike season starting only 12 games. taking Marino's avg stats thru his first 9 years I compounded what his stats would be if he had 11 more games played.

Marino 144 GP 3061 completions on 4625 attempts for a 66% completion rate.
38631 yards passing. 292 TDs and 149 INT for a QB rating of 95.6.

So only category Manning surpasses Marino in is completions, but that's on 265 more attempts and Marino is more accurate so you know he would have surpassed that. I guess you argument still holds no wind, and I very much so doubt Manning is playing when he's 41 years old with all those miles on his arms, he'll be a back up in 5 years maybe 6.

Neo
06-09-2007, 06:39 PM
Ok so my stats were a year behind my bad, but I guess I can still prove Peyton is #2 behind Marino through 9 years...

Peyton 144 GP 3131 completions on 4890 attempts for 64% completion rate.
37586 yards passing. 275 TDs and 139 INT for a QB Rating of 94.4

Marino 133 GP 2798 completions on 4181 attempts for 66% completion rate.
35386 yards passing. 266 TDs and 136 INT for a QB rating of 91.3

BUT!!!! Marino played 2 short season in his first 9 years starting on 9 games his rook season and playing in a strike season starting only 12 games. taking Marino's avg stats thru his first 9 years I compounded what his stats would be if he had 11 more games played.

Marino 144 GP 3061 completions on 4625 attempts for a 66% completion rate.
38631 yards passing. 292 TDs and 149 INT for a QB rating of 95.6.

So only category Manning surpasses Marino in is completions, but that's on 265 more attempts and Marino is more accurate so you know he would have surpassed that. I guess you argument still holds no wind, and I very much so doubt Manning is playing when he's 41 years old with all those miles on his arms, he'll be a back up in 5 years maybe 6.

So Peyton has a Higher QB rating am i correct, and every other stat is right there... Plus you act like Marino not playing his rookie year is a disadvantage even though thats when Rookies take their lumps For Example Mannings 28 INT's. So you people are willing to admit that Manning is better by far than every other QB except Marino? and Marino is the only one that can hold a candle to Manning... if you are saying that i'll find that acceptable

Neo
06-09-2007, 06:43 PM
Okay, I'm going to break what I said earlier, I can't watch this anymore.

Montana 2/3's Manning? Just stop being ridiculous right now. Not only are you only looking at his damn career TD's in making that assumption, but on top of that Montana has done more in his career then Manning ever will.

For all your silly stats arguments, which every poster with a brain, or sports fanatic, or anaylst, in America can tell you does not tell the whole story, you simply blow off intangibles, leadership, wins, and championships as not a big deal.

John Elway led his team to 47 game-winning or game-saving drives in the fourth Quarter. Now I know you'll just say "John Elway's team did that", but think of the longevity of his career, and the common denominator on all those teams (him). He's the only quarterback to get his team to the Super Bowl five times over his career. Manning has got his team there once despite arguably having a better team then Elway could think of at points in his career. Not to mention Elway's stats are impressive, his wins are amazing, and despite what you think, Quarterbacks are the most importnat position in showing leadership on the field, and that is what is responsible for those late-game comebacks, or playoff wins. Elway also wasn't a bad runner either, a dimension Manning does not have.

Dan Marino, if we are arguing statistics like you like to, was a passing God. He leads every QB in the history of the NFL in almost every single passing mark, despite never getting his team to the big game. He was every bit and more the Quarterback Manning was and hopes to be, and you can't deny that, so I won't bother defending Marino anymore.

Joe Montana was known as the Comeback Kid, earning 31 come from behind victories in the 4th quarter, when the game was on the line. Clutch plays such as "the catch" and his 92 yard touchdown drive against the Bengals in Super Bowl XXIII are more reasons why he is one of the best, if not the best Quarterback of all time, better then Manning. Again, you'll say his team made those plays, but the Quarterback is the one who led the drives, and made the plays with the game on the line. In four super bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes, for 1,142 yards and 11 touchdowns, with zero interceptions, giving him a QB rating of 127.8. Montana won each Super Bowl he played in, and was MVP in three of them, the only player to ever do so. Peyton Manning do that yet?

It's not even to say that one day Manning may be in that upper-echleon of Quarterbacks. To say so now though is ridiculous, and to say he is the absolute best of all time without debate? Well, that's just not understanding football. Thsoe are just three quarterbacks, cases could be made for Johnny Unitas, Otto Grahm, any of these great Quarterbacks who weren't around for the golden age of passing we are in now, or players who were every bit the QB Manning was, but weren't in the same situation he was blessed to fall into (Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Addai, Edge, Stokley (amazing #3 WR), that O-Line) over the years.

You're arguments are insane, and no one believes what you say, do you even? And for the record, simply ignoring every one else's argument and saying there is no debate, you won an argument, is not winning, its just ignorance.

I forgot only one player suits up for Denver and San Fran... My BAD... Only QB's win games other players have nothing to do with it. Sorry Champ... but Peyton is better than those QB's. As for being Blessed with Stockely that is the Silliest thing i have ever seen. Not a single one of those AMAZING players mentioned have done anything for any other team except the Colts so one could argue that is because of Mannings Greatness. I mean Stockely? HAHAHA.... WOW THE TALENTED EDGE>>> HAHAHAHAH 3.2 YPC when he leaves Peyton... SAD

neko4
06-09-2007, 06:47 PM
I forgot only one player suits up for Denver and San Fran... My BAD... Only QB's win games other players have nothing to do with it. Sorry Champ... but Peyton is better than those QB's. As for being Blessed with Stockely that is the Silliest thing i have ever seen. Not a single one of those AMAZING players mentioned have done anything for any other team except the Colts so one could argue that is because of Mannings Greatness. I mean Stockely? HAHAHA.... WOW THE TALENTED EDGE>>> HAHAHAHAH 3.2 YPC when he leaves Peyton... SAD

Oh i forgot just how great that Arizona O-Line is. Its not Leinart's fault that Edge had a bad year. Leinart has 2 of the best WR's in the league to throw too. Edge had no line at all. Which is why the Cards reached on Levi Brown

Neo
06-09-2007, 06:53 PM
Oh i forgot just how great that Arizona O-Line is. Its not Leinart's fault that Edge had a bad year. Leinart has 2 of the best WR's in the league to throw too. Edge had no line at all. Which is why the Cards reached on Levi Brown

As of right now he is an absolute pathetic bust of a player once he left the Colts an i correct? Yes, i am... so until he proves he can play somewhere else, to assume that he is an extremely talented player haha "STOKELY ESQ" he is a complete bum without having 18 as his QB.

If Stokley was so good he would have started in Balt... i mean my sister could start at WR for them.... then somehow he goes to the colts and becomes amazing... hmmmm

neko4
06-09-2007, 06:56 PM
Dad dying while young is apparently supposed to make me think he is better at football. Manning's Dad tutored him at a very young age... one of many reasons why he is better.

Was considered undersized- (dead dad must not have given him proper genetics) Manning Perfect size another reason why he is better.

Teams win playoff games from the best of my knowledge not just one player.
40,000 yards.... but you use 12-14 game season as if it is something that would make that more impressive... it isnt, a single season stat would be impressive if you were going to bring up 12 to 14 game season... not career (silly).
Wasnt drafted till 19th round apparently makes him better? that isnt logical.

That has to be the worst logical defense of Johnny U i have ever seen, You made exactly zero good points. I am sitting here and laughing at your argumentation. Just because he overachevied and overcame a "rough life" or other such nonsense still doesnt make him a better player. I mean this is silly am i right guys, I mean seriously get off Doug Flute seniors junk. He still couldnt hold Peytons Jock.

Plus talk about Choking... Johnny U is king Superbowl 3 anybody. (btw speaking of god awful QB's how about Joe Namath.)

By saying Johnny was undersized I was saying he was given less to work w/. He overcame the odds and became a great QB. Same thing for being drafted in the 19th round. Everyone knew (or atleast) expected Manning to be great. No one thought Johnny would become great. He was hurt in Super Bowl 3, and only played in part of the game, plus he was older by then. Johnny U was just a part of that Super Bowl 3 team. Get your facts straight because right now every legit football fan on this site is angered by your stupidity and lack of knowledge and im sure they're also laughing at you. You have given a terrible defense of Manning saying that stats are the only thing that matters.

neko4
06-09-2007, 06:57 PM
As of right now he is an absolute pathetic bust of a player once he left the Colts an i correct? Yes, i am... so until he proves he can play somewhere else, to assume that he is an extremely talented player haha "STOKELY ESQ" he is a complete bum without having 18 as his QB.

If Stokley was so good he would have started in Balt... i mean my sister could start at WR for them.... then somehow he goes to the colts and becomes amazing... hmmmm

I still dont understand your point? Manning helped Edge? No I think that the Colts O-Line which boasts 2 or 3 former pro bowlers helped him the most. Whereas the Cards O-line has NFLE talent

GB12
06-09-2007, 06:57 PM
As of right now he is an absolute pathetic bust of a player once he left the Colts an i correct? Yes, i am... so until he proves he can play somewhere else, to assume that he is an extremely talented player haha "STOKELY ESQ" he is a complete bum without having 18 as his QB.

If Stokley was so good he would have started in Balt... i mean my sister could start at WR for them.... then somehow he goes to the colts and becomes amazing... hmmmm

Last year in Arizona James had 1159 yards and 6 TDs. In 2002 with the Colts he had 981 yards and 2 TDs.

neko4
06-09-2007, 07:00 PM
Last year in Arizona James had 1159 yards and 6 TDs. In 2002 with the Colts he had 981 yards and 2 TDs.

Good point especially considering if Edge played two more games he was still 20 yards short of '06 totals

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:03 PM
By saying Johnny was undersized I was saying he was given less to work w/. He overcame the odds and became a great QB. Same thing for being drafted in the 19th round. Everyone knew (or atleast) expected Manning to be great. No one thought Johnny would become great. He was hurt in Super Bowl 3, and only played in part of the game, plus he was older by then. Get your facts straight because right now every legit football fan on this site is angered by your stupidity and lack of knowledge and im sure they're also laughing at you. You have given a terrible defense of Manning saying that stats are the only thing that matters.

1) I am sorry he was undersized... just another reason manning is better
2) Aww its cute that he overachieved.... but so did Manning by becoming the Greatest QB to ever play the game.
3) Peyton doesnt get hurt... maybe it was because he was "undersized" TOO BAD.

Oh and your "i have a lovey dovey feeling about the small man who suited up for the baltimore colts" argument is AMAZING. Or the "John Elway was great because his team came back, aww how cute"... however it leads the question, why the hell were they down in the first place? maybe because he couldnt complete 60% of his passes and was throwing to many picks... or the "Joe Montana is my hero the WCO and the San Fran Dynasty" forgetting the fact that when it comes down to it Peyton in 9 seasons has already thrown for more TD's than the golden boy did in 15... to call him 2/3's of Manning is overrating him a tad.

When the facts are presented it is clear who is the best.

Peyton Manning... Just watch the greatness while it lasts

draftguru151
06-09-2007, 07:04 PM
Neo how much of these other QBs have you ever actually watched?

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:06 PM
Neo how much of these other QBs have you ever actually watched?

Vast Majority.

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:11 PM
Last year in Arizona James had 1159 yards and 6 TDs. In 2002 with the Colts he had 981 yards and 2 TDs.

Aww thats cute pointing out a season when he was coming off a serious injury, and he still averaged more yards per carry than in ARI. I mean when you want to be fair you wouldnt pick that season but it still comes out in my favor anyhow... Sorry but when it comes to football knowledge... i am clearly untouchable, whats next...

WELL IN 98 PEYTON LED THE LEAGUE IN INTS... so he sucks

cunningham06
06-09-2007, 07:16 PM
This thread is really getting off topic. I hate the way that people attribute the Patriots SB's nearly all to Tom Brady. Before the Colts SB many said Brady was the best qb, why? Because HE won 3 SB's. Just because he is on the best team in the NFL does NOT make him the best qb.

I'll break it down into playing percentage.

Defense- 48%
Running Game- 23%
Passing game- 25%
Special Teams- 4%

So unless the qb fumbles the snap or botches the handoff, only about 25% of the time the qb actually the one leading with his ability. Of course these #'s fluctuate depending on how much a team runs or passes, but this is just a rough estimate. It's ridiculous to award wins solely to a qb.

BTW Peyton Manning is not the best qb in the NFL all time, and Neo please stop saying McNabb is better than Elway you are making Eagles fans look bad.

neko4
06-09-2007, 07:17 PM
1) I am sorry he was undersized... just another reason manning is better
2) Aww its cute that he overachieved.... but so did Manning by becoming the Greatest QB to ever play the game.
3) Peyton doesnt get hurt... maybe it was because he was "undersized" TOO BAD.

Oh and your "i have a lovey dovey feeling about the small man who suited up for the baltimore colts" argument is AMAZING. Or the "John Elway was great because his team came back, aww how cute"... however it leads the question, why the hell were they down in the first place? maybe because he couldnt complete 60% of his passes and was throwing to many picks... or the "Joe Montana is my hero the WCO and the San Fran Dynasty" forgetting the fact that when it comes down to it Peyton in 9 seasons has already thrown for more TD's than the golden boy did in 15... to call him 2/3's of Manning is overrating him a tad.

When the facts are presented it is clear who is the best.

Peyton Manning... Just watch the greatness while it lasts


“Success is how you bounce on the bottom.”
-Patton
Apparently you dont know US History either.
Please explain why you base everything on stats?
Didnt Marvin Harrison help Manning get those numbers?
Didnt Reggie Wayne help him too?
Also Johnny hardly ever got hurt early in his career, and we've yet to see Peyton with his skills deminished. Also the QB is looked at as the leader on the team, its his job to stay cool and keep the team cool in high pressure situations. If he doesnt then he should be the one to blame. Its definitly something scouts look for and is in the job description.
Also how can you say the Manning's size makes him better?
How can you blame Unitas for not getting great genes?
Sure you can do that when you scout a player but not when you judge greatness?

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:26 PM
“Success is how you bounce on the bottom.”
-Patton
Apparently you dont know US History either.
Please explain why you base everything on stats?
Didnt Marvin Harrison help Manning get those numbers?
Didnt Reggie Wayne help him too?
Also Johnny hardly ever got hurt early in his career, and we've yet to see Peyton with his skills deminished. Also the QB is looked at as the leader on the team, its his job to stay cool and keep the team cool in high pressure situations. If he doesnt then he should be the one to blame. Its definitly something scouts look for and is in the job description.
Also how can you say the Manning's size makes him better?
How can you blame Unitas for not getting great genes?
Sure you can do that when you scout a player but not when you judge greatness?

I am pretty sure i know more about history than you as well...

Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne have looked great with Peyton as QB... Would they without him? who knows... but considering he made a bum like Stokley look good... (and possible bum edge) it is a possibility his ridiculousness at QB is also making those players look good.

If Johnny U was shorter and better than Peyton i would say it... however the only reason for people saying "he was short, and drafted late" etc etc etc... is because they somehow in their makebelieveland of fairy tales believes he should score bonus points for "overcoming" I'll admit that a Biography of Johnny U would most likely be better but on the field he couldnt even hold Manning's Jock strap... he would be his waterboy.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-09-2007, 07:26 PM
Guys just ignore Neo, it's painfully obvious he is either 12, never watched a football game, or has watched football games but finds it so over his head that he resorts to looking at statistics and claiming his incredibly incorrect opinion as fact. Neo, I hope you leave, and I don't know if you've noticed, but everyone is against you on this one. That's usually a good indicator that you have no ******* clue what you're talking about. There's also a reason you have negative reputation, and it's not because of mods with an agenda(suggesting that is infraction material, by the way). It's because you bring nothing of any worth to any discussion.

niel89
06-09-2007, 07:26 PM
wow this is just sad. you are trying to say that guys who are legends, cant hold a candle to manning. i think manning is amazing as a qb and will be up there when all is said and done.

you have a terrible argument in that you fully refuse to see the other side. you just sit there and annoint manning as the greatest. i really doubt that you have seen the "vast majority" of these qbs and you are just talking out of your ass.


also please spell check your post.

SubNoize
06-09-2007, 07:27 PM
So Peyton has a Higher QB rating am i correct, and every other stat is right there... Plus you act like Marino not playing his rookie year is a disadvantage even though thats when Rookies take their lumps For Example Mannings 28 INT's. So you people are willing to admit that Manning is better by far than every other QB except Marino? and Marino is the only one that can hold a candle to Manning... if you are saying that i'll find that acceptable

uh... 95>94 last time I checked and yes it is imperitive if you're comparing stats to bring them to an even keel, otherwise Peyton has stats for 11 more games, that's almost 1 more season, that's why i compounded what Marino would have done had he played the same amount of games. Marino did play his rook year but was active only 11 and started 9. Manning is worlds behind Marino, Elway and Montana in leadership and football ability. All you spew is QB stats that show Manning has had quality around him his whole career in Edge, and Harrison and even Wayne. He didn't make them, they made him. Edge opened up the air attack by making people stack the box, allowing Harrison to seperate and get the ball from Manning. What would Elways or Marino stats look like if they had teams that had dangerous RBs and a HOF lock WR???

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:28 PM
This thread is really getting off topic. I hate the way that people attribute the Patriots SB's nearly all to Tom Brady. Before the Colts SB many said Brady was the best qb, why? Because HE won 3 SB's. Just because he is on the best team in the NFL does NOT make him the best qb.

I'll break it down into playing percentage.

Defense- 48%
Running Game- 23%
Passing game- 25%
Special Teams- 4%

So unless the qb fumbles the snap or botches the handoff, only about 25% of the time the qb actually the one leading with his ability. Of course these #'s fluctuate depending on how much a team runs or passes, but this is just a rough estimate. It's ridiculous to award wins solely to a qb.

BTW Peyton Manning is not the best qb in the NFL all time, and Neo please stop saying McNabb is better than Elway you are making Eagles fans look bad.


How are McNabb's first 8 seasons not absolutely better than Elways.... Explain to me how after 8 seasons you could logically choose Elway over McNabb thats insanity... (racism*?)

And yes Peyton is the best QB to ever play the game

SubNoize
06-09-2007, 07:29 PM
I furthermore call shenanigans on NEO, I think he's another poster, it's really convenient he suddenly pops on when someone responds, but never really post anything else....

neko4
06-09-2007, 07:29 PM
Neo:
Is Timmy Chang the greatest QB in NCAA history, and is he playing in the NFL right now?
Because if stats are everything then Chang=God

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:30 PM
uh... 95>94 last time I checked and yes it is imperitive if you're comparing stats to bring them to an even keel, otherwise Peyton has stats for 11 more games, that's almost 1 more season, that's why i compounded what Marino would have done had he played the same amount of games. Marino did play his rook year but was active only 11 and started 9. Manning is worlds behind Marino, Elway and Montana in leadership and football ability. All you spew is QB stats that show Manning has had quality around him his whole career in Edge, and Harrison and even Wayne. He didn't make them, they made him. Edge opened up the air attack by making people stack the box, allowing Harrison to seperate and get the ball from Manning. What would Elways or Marino stats look like if they had teams that had dangerous RBs and a HOF lock WR???

Yeah EDGE IS AMAZING... ARI went to the superbowl last year didnt they.......... oh wait... he was god awful... one of the worst starters in the NFL... My bad i thought you had a point... you didnt

neko4
06-09-2007, 07:31 PM
Yeah EDGE IS AMAZING... ARI went to the superbowl last year didnt they.......... oh wait... he was god awful... one of the worst starters in the NFL... My bad i thought you had a point... you didnt

I thought you said players were just part of a team, I thought that it took the whole team helping eachother to win games?
Hypocrite

SubNoize
06-09-2007, 07:31 PM
uhh... have you ever watched the Cards offensive line??? Jesus you have to be the least informed person to ever walk the earth... Do you even think before you post or do your Peyton panties squeeze your giny so tight that you have no blood flow to the brain???

cunningham06
06-09-2007, 07:35 PM
How are McNabb's first 8 seasons not absolutely better than Elways.... Explain to me how after 8 seasons you could logically choose Elway over McNabb thats insanity... (racism*?)

And yes Peyton is the best QB to ever play the game

Yes, I'm a racist. That's why I think Elway is better than McNabb.

I love McNabb, he's one of my favorite players, but honestly there are many reasons Donovan isn't better than Elway. For one, I hate to admit it but Donovan is a pretty ****** leader. He's got great ability, but just isn't a leader. Another, Donovan can't stay healthy. Who cares how good he is if he can't finish a season?

You have absolutely no understanding of the NFL, except for a child-like grasp for stats which cannot define a player. The NFL isn't able to be broken down by stats, stats are just a part of it. Your parochial understanding of what it means to be a quarterback is extremely misguided and you are hopelessly ignorant if you think that Manning is better than Marino was right now. Once Manning is done maybe there can be debate, but as of right now you've got nothing but stats, which don't mean as much as you make them out to.

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:36 PM
I thought you said players were just part of a team, I thought that it took the whole team helping eachother to win games?
Hypocrite

I do but you are making a case for Edge being amazing... when in fact he is horrible at this sport you call football... If you are going to make a statement that Peyton is only good because of the talent around him you have to prove that he isnt the main reason that those players are good. So far we have Stockley who was awful before Manning and Edge who was awful after Manning... The rest of them havent played without Manning except in college... (and Marvin before Manning, where he wasnt all that special either, but i wont hold that against him)

I love these Man crushes... but any logical person would pick Peyton over Montana, Johnny U, Marino, Elway... and the rest... you are just hating on Peyton for no apparent reason... BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF, Peyton is the best to ever play... i am glad that i get to watch him now and for the next 7-8+ years show how the position should be played

neko4
06-09-2007, 07:37 PM
I love these Man crushes... but any logical person would pick Peyton over Montana, Johnny U, Marino, Elway... and the rest... you are just hating on Peyton for no apparent reason... BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF, Peyton is the best to ever play... i am glad that i get to watch him now and for the next 7-8+ years show how the position should be played

I will now test this theory
And you seem to have a man crush on Manning

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-09-2007, 07:37 PM
Hey guys, this just in: Kurt Warner is the NFLs 3rd best QB all-time. Jay Cutler is better than Tom Brady. These are hard facts. You simply can't argue with them. Also, Steve Young is the best ever, hands down. Sorry Neo, you're out of luck. I am THE authority on football things like this, and these are the stone cold facts. You can't argue with them. you just can't. It wouldn't be possible.

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:38 PM
Yes, I'm a racist. That's why I think Elway is better than McNabb.

I love McNabb, he's one of my favorite players, but honestly there are many reasons Donovan isn't better than Elway. For one, I hate to admit it but Donovan is a pretty ****** leader. He's got great ability, but just isn't a leader. Another, Donovan can't stay healthy. Who cares how good he is if he can't finish a season?

You have absolutely no understanding of the NFL, except for a child-like grasp for stats which cannot define a player. The NFL isn't able to be broken down by stats, stats are just a part of it. Your parochial understanding of what it means to be a quarterback is extremely misguided and you are hopelessly ignorant if you think that Manning is better than Marino was right now. Once Manning is done maybe there can be debate, but as of right now you've got nothing but stats, which don't mean as much as you make them out to.


First 8 Elway vs McNabb make a case for Elway... Seriously make your best attempt at a case... there really is none... REPEAT AFTER ME MCNABB's FIRST 8 SEASONS ARE BETTER THAN ELWAYS. (by far)

niel89
06-09-2007, 07:38 PM
I do but you are making a case for Edge being amazing... when in fact he is horrible at this sport you call football... If you are going to make a statement that Peyton is only good because of the talent around him you have to prove that he isnt the main reason that those players are good. So far we have Stockley who was awful before Manning and Edge who was awful after Manning... The rest of them havent played without Manning except in college... (and Marvin before Manning, where he wasnt all that special either, but i wont hold that against him)

I love these Man crushes... but any logical person would pick Peyton over Montana, Johnny U, Marino, Elway... and the rest... you are just hating on Peyton for no apparent reason... BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF, Peyton is the best to ever play... i am glad that i get to watch him now and for the next 7-8+ years show how the position should be played

like yours?:rolleyes:

Neo
06-09-2007, 07:39 PM
I will now test this theory
And you seem to have a man crush on Manning

I really dont care about Manning, i am not even a colts fan, but atleast i can point to facts and not some simple love affair.

neko4
06-09-2007, 07:40 PM
Neo:
Is Timmy Chang the greatest QB in NCAA history, and is he playing in the NFL right now?
Because if stats are everything then Chang=God

Hey genius boy you forgot to respond to this!

cunningham06
06-09-2007, 07:41 PM
Hey guys, this just in: Kurt Warner is the NFLs 3rd best QB all-time. Jay Cutler is better than Tom Brady. These are hard facts. You simply can't argue with them. Also, Steve Young is the best ever, hands down. Sorry Neo, you're out of luck. I am THE authority on football things like this, and these are the stone cold facts. You can't argue with them. you just can't. It wouldn't be possible.

http://www.fbcwillmar.org/images/bow_down.gif

All Hail! His facts are so stone cold! You can't argue with this mans hard facts!

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-09-2007, 07:43 PM
First 8 Elway vs McNabb make a case for Elway... Seriously make your best attempt at a case... there really is none... REPEAT AFTER ME MCNABB's FIRST 8 SEASONS ARE BETTER THAN ELWAYS. (by far)

HOW ABOUT WHEN ELWAY WON MVP? HMM? I GUESS IT DOESN'T SHOW UP IN NFL.COM'S BASIC LAYOUT OF

Name-Yards-TD-INT-Passer Rating.


your ignorance is astounding.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-09-2007, 07:46 PM
He's gone for a week.

niel89
06-09-2007, 07:47 PM
He's gone for a week.

really? what for?

cunningham06
06-09-2007, 07:47 PM
First 8 Elway vs McNabb make a case for Elway... Seriously make your best attempt at a case... there really is none... REPEAT AFTER ME MCNABB's FIRST 8 SEASONS ARE BETTER THAN ELWAYS. (by far)

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point huh? I just called you out for having nothing to back up your BS except stats and you tell me to refer to the stats.

As for McNabb, he played 10 games or fewer in 3 of those seasons. He isn't a leader and can't stay healthy so who cares what his production is. Just looking at stats Steve Young is the best qb to ever play. His accuracy was over 70% in 2 of his seasons I believe. He has the highest passer rating of any qb in the HOF so he is undoubtedly the best right?

neko4
06-09-2007, 07:48 PM
Reading comprehension isn't your strong point huh? I just called you out for having nothing to back up your BS except stats and you tell me to refer to the stats.

As for McNabb, he played 10 games or fewer in 3 of those seasons. He isn't a leader and can't stay healthy so who cares what his production is. Just looking at stats Steve Young is the best qb to ever play. His accuracy was over 70% in 2 of his seasons I believe. He has the highest passer rating of any qb in the HOF so he is undoubtedly the best right?

Oh and he threw up in the Super Bowl. And began to throw screen passes at 90 MPH. The guy breaks down under pressure. He's like Dwight Freeney. Only plays good when hes ahead

neko4
06-09-2007, 07:56 PM
A great man once said "you can make stats say whatever you want them to say"

cunningham06
06-09-2007, 11:38 PM
Oh and he threw up in the Super Bowl. And began to throw screen passes at 90 MPH. The guy breaks down under pressure. He's like Dwight Freeney. Only plays good when hes ahead

Hey, hey I'm saying he's not as good as Elway, but there's no need to bash my man Donovan.

Sniper
06-09-2007, 11:47 PM
Oh and he threw up in the Super Bowl. And began to throw screen passes at 90 MPH. The guy breaks down under pressure. He's like Dwight Freeney. Only plays good when hes ahead

Whoa buddy take it easy. I beg to differ on that "only plays good when he's ahead". I'm sorry, I fail to see that.

neko4
06-09-2007, 11:52 PM
Whoa buddy take it easy. I beg to differ on that "only plays good when he's ahead". I'm sorry, I fail to see that.

Sorry but Neo has me pretty pissed, I have to throw out everything

Namy
06-10-2007, 02:24 AM
Hahaha Neo you're a tard. The fact taht you've been trying so hard to bash Elway for 6 pages of this thread is quite amusing. The FACT that every professioanl NFL analyst and member on this board disagrees/would disagree with you doesn't really get to you? Let me just say this... Elway was/is/will be the ULTIMATE QB prospect in history. You talk about his inaccuracy, but scouts during his time said he could LASER a ball with SUPURB accuracy from 40-60 yards out. This is why many scouts also believe that there has never been a true "franchise QB" since Elway... not even Peyton Manning.

Also, you credit teams for wins, but aren't teams also catalysts for QB statistics? Put John Elway in today's Colt's offense. Give him Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Addai (back then Edge too), an elite O-Line, in a DOME for half the season, in addition to the rule where DBs cannot place their hands on WRs past 5 yards and Elway would've put up just as good if not better statistics.

I believe NJX9 poitned out that Marino had no where near passing options Manning does. That's a fact. Now let me extend this further. Elway had even less offensive weapons than Marino UNTIL late in his career. Your bringing up of statistics is amusing. Jake Plummer's best statistical season yardage-wise of 4089 yards surpasses taht of John Elway's best yardage season. However, I dare you to come to Denver and try to suggest that Plummer is better than Elway with that statistic.

Myriad people mention how Elway enjoyed the best seasons of his CAREER in his last two seasons... but not just in terms of Super Bowl wins.. but also in his statistics. Elway enjoyed his BEST STATISTICAL SEASONS his LAST two years... isn't that kind of odd? He is definitely passed his prime by then in his late 30's. Right, that's because it reasserts my poitn that teams are large factors with QB's statistics. Give Elway in his PRIME the team that he had late in his career and the Broncos may have been a dynasty of the ages.

Moron, playing in different eras and with subpar supporting casts have A LOT to do with more than wins, they produce the luxury statistics that QB's nowadays can easily achieve.

JK17
06-10-2007, 08:43 AM
Also important to rememeber that Elway can throw a vortex 110 yards.

Ewing
06-10-2007, 10:32 AM
Don't feed the ****ing trolls. Just let this thread drop.

YAYareaRB
06-10-2007, 11:54 AM
Just let it be known that being a QB has little to do with stats and numbers..

neko4
06-10-2007, 12:38 PM
in a DOME for half the season

Not to mention Mile High aint all that pretty in winter
Manning cant do anything in bad weather

someone447
06-10-2007, 01:01 PM
I don't really think anybody believes that winning a super bowl makes a great QB. Sure it helps, but if you actually think that what you are saying is common belief, then there is something wrong.

Troy Aikman was a first ballot hall of famer because of the wins he got. Terry Bradshaw was the same way.

10-15 other QBs in the league could have done what Troy Aikman did. Should Chris Chandler be a hall of famer? No? He was a better QB than Aikman was, he just didn't have the weapons.