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hornybastard
07-08-2007, 04:04 PM
Ok this week were going to do QBs basically what you do is you give me you're Top 10. This week were doing QBs. After everybody gives their top 10 I'll count it up and total who you guys think are the Top QBs in the NFL. You can do you're top 10 anyway like what they have done in their career or last 3-5 years doesn't matter. I did this last year on a different board so I figure I'll give it a shot on this one. I'll give an example

1.Peyton Manning
2.Carson Palmer
3.Tom Brady
4.Matt Hasselbeck
5.Marc Bulger
6.Drew Brees
7.Philip Rivers
8.Tony Romo
9.Brett Favre
10.Chad Pennington

255979119
07-08-2007, 04:11 PM
I think you made a mistake at the top.

Bills2083
07-08-2007, 04:15 PM
My board is for best right now.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Matt Hasselbeck
5. Drew Brees
6. Brett Favre
7. Marc Bulger
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Chad Pennington
10. Ben Roethlisberger

Bills2083
07-08-2007, 04:16 PM
I think you made a mistake at the top.

Nope, he did mean to put Brady after Palmer

TitleTown088
07-08-2007, 04:16 PM
Hasselback at four? Rivers at 7? and no Mcnabb in the top 10? I hate Donovan, but come on.

JK17
07-08-2007, 04:21 PM
Yeah I'll just throw mine in...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Philip Rivers
9. Tony Romo
10. Vince Young

Ravens1991
07-08-2007, 04:22 PM
I dont see how you all have Palmer over Brady.

JK17
07-08-2007, 04:25 PM
I dont see how you all have Palmer over Brady.

For me its just a personal preference. I could switch the two, very easily also, but I like Palmer as a Quarterback better. There's a little bias in there, I don't like Tom Brady I won't try to hide that, I just feel if you give Palmer and Brady the same chances Palmer will do better everytime.

Yes, Brady doesn't have the weapons Palmer has, but what Brady is most noticed for is his championships. A lot of that is Brady's doing, but a lot is also having a great defense and great coaching. Put Palmer on the Patriots in their Super Bowl years I do think he can do the same thing.

It's just my opinion, obviously there is plenty of hard evidence to speak otherwise though.

255979119
07-08-2007, 04:27 PM
For me its just a personal preference. I could switch the two, very easily also, but I like Palmer as a Quarterback better. There's a little bias in there, I don't like Tom Brady I won't try to hide that, I just feel if you give Palmer and Brady the same chances Palmer will do better everytime.

Yes, Brady doesn't have the weapons Palmer has, but what Brady is most noticed for is his championships. A lot of that is Brady's doing, but a lot is also having a great defense and great coaching. Put Palmer on the Patriots in their Super Bowl years I do think he can do the same thing.

It's just my opinion, obviously there is plenty of hard evidence to speak otherwise though.

Thanks for backing up your opinion.

22,895
07-08-2007, 04:28 PM
1.Peyton Manning
2.Carson Palmer
3.Tom Brady
4.Drew Brees
5.Marc Bulger
6.Donovan McNabb
7.Philip Rivers
8.Brett Favre
9.Tony Romo
10.Matt Hasselbeck

yodabear
07-08-2007, 04:35 PM
1. Ferotte 2. Grossman 3. Kitna 4. Jackson 5. Fitzpatrick
6. McCown 7. Frye 8. Culpepper 9. Cassel 10. Orlovski

Just Joking this is my real list
1. Peyton Manning
2. Palmer
3. Brady
4. Brees
5. McNabb
6. Bulger
7. Hasselbeck
8. Favre
9. Romo
10. Young

Dam8610
07-08-2007, 04:35 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Philip Rivers
9. Michael Vick
10. J.P. Losman/Rex Grossman

The QB depth in the NFL sucks right now.

JK17
07-08-2007, 04:39 PM
Thanks for backing up your opinion.

I could back it up with numbers, and you can say numbers aren't the only way to judge players.

Then you would back it up with look at what Brady's done to make his team win, and I would say his team and coach had a much larger role in that then Brady did.

What I'm saying is I'd rather have Palmer because if both placed in the exact same simutation. If they have the same offense, defense, and coaching, I take Palmer every time. He is a superior QB in terms of tools, and I see no reason why I wouldn't want him everytime in that situation, although I can see why a lot of people would want Brady in that situation. I'm sorry I didn't pick your QB to be my #2 guy, its my opinion though that in the same spot, Palmer succeeds moreso then Brady.

But, that's never going to happen, and we'll never find out, which is why its my opinion, and there's not much to say to back it up.

JK17
07-08-2007, 04:41 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Philip Rivers
9. Michael Vick
10. J.P. Losman/Rex Grossman

The QB depth in the NFL sucks right now

Yeah, your telling me. I can get through 8 that I'm so confident in their order, or at least that they belong in the top eight, and then all of a sudden there is a field of ten to fifteen guys I see very little difference in.

UKfan
07-08-2007, 04:41 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan Mcnabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Trent Green
9. Philip Rivers
10. Chad Pennington

I know Trent sucked at the end of last season, but I think he'll be back to his old self in Miami next season.

255979119
07-08-2007, 04:42 PM
While I think Palmer is the superior physical talent, and has a much better arm. There is still no one who I would want more then brady when the game is on the line.

JK17
07-08-2007, 04:43 PM
While I think Palmer is the superior physical talent, and has a much better arm. There is still no one who I would want more then brady when the game is on the line.

Right, and I can easily see that, but I'm ranking them not on their intangibles or what they do in the clutch, but the what kind of QB they are, all the time, not just in the clutch.

Eaglez.Fan
07-08-2007, 04:44 PM
1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Donovan McNabb
5. Drew Brees
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Chad Pennington
9. Tony Romo
10. Brett Favre

Bills2083
07-08-2007, 04:50 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan Mcnabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Trent Green
9. Philip Rivers
10. Chad Pennington

I know Trent sucked at the end of last season, but I think he'll be back to his old self in Miami next season.

Finally, someone else who doesn't have Romo in the top 10 :cool:

JK17
07-08-2007, 04:51 PM
Finally, someone else who doesn't have Romo in the top 10 :cool:

I'm not a huge Romo fan myself, at all, but its hard to say other people should definitely be in that top ten ahead of him. There's a lot of decent QBs in the league, but only a few that really scream top ten.

255979119
07-08-2007, 04:52 PM
The thing is, if the league wasn't rather thin on elite QB talent, then there would be a shortage of Quarterbacks being drafted for need.

SubNoize
07-08-2007, 04:55 PM
1.Peyton Maning
2.Tom Brady
3.Carson Palmer
4.Drew Brees
5.Matt Hasselbeck
6.Marc Bulger
7.Donovan Mcnabb
8.Philip Rivers
9.Chad Pennington
10.Brett Favre

yodabear
07-08-2007, 04:56 PM
Right, and I can easily see that, but I'm ranking them not on their intangibles or what they do in the clutch, but the what kind of QB they are, all the time, not just in the clutch.

I say top 7, the other 3 are hard. There are a lot QBs u could consider after the top 7:Young, Romo, Favre, Rivers, Cutler, Pennington,that I just didn't know what order to put them in.

Shane P. Hallam
07-08-2007, 04:56 PM
1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Chad Pennington
10. Jon Kitna

I put Brady at the top because he has done more with nothing than anyone. It is 1 and 1a, honestly. The top 7 for me were pretty easy. I put Bulger above McNabb due to injury issues. Hass is solid, and Rivers has shown how good he can be. 9 and 10 were hard. Pennington, I don't like, but he is solid. As for 10, it could be Kitna, Romo, Favre, Young, Leinart, Roethlisberger, take your pick. I think Kitna still is a good QB who outperformed what his O-line and running game gave him. Right now, I think he is a top 10 QB.

255979119
07-08-2007, 04:57 PM
1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Chad Pennington
10. Jon Kitna

I put Brady at the top because he has done more with nothing than anyone. It is 1 and 1a, honestly. The top 7 for me were pretty easy. I put Bulger above McNabb due to injury issues. Hass is solid, and Rivers has shown how good he can be. 9 and 10 were hard. Pennington, I don't like, but he is solid. As for 10, it could be Kitna, Romo, Favre, Young, Leinart, Roethlisberger, take your pick. I think Kitna still is a good QB who outperformed what his O-line and running game gave him. Right now, I think he is a top 10 QB.

Next to Oaktown. Didn't Detroit have the worst pass blocking line?

TACKLE
07-08-2007, 04:58 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hassleback
8. Vince Young
9. Phillip Rivers
10. Ben Roethlisberger

The Dynasty
07-08-2007, 04:59 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Brett Favre
7. Donavan McNabb
8. Matt Hasselbeck
9. Ben Roethisberger
10. Phillip Rivers

I didnt want to put a QB who only truly played for 1 season and thats why Rivers is at 10.

22,895
07-08-2007, 05:00 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hassleback
8. Vince Young
9. Phillip Rivers
10. Ben Roethlisberger

Vince Young 8?.....You know what I'm just not gonna say anything lol.

JK17
07-08-2007, 05:04 PM
I say top 7, the other 3 are hard. There are a lot QBs u could consider after the top 7:Young, Romo, Favre, Rivers, Cutler, Pennington,that I just didn't know what order to put them in.

I only make it 8, because as a Charger fan, I feel Rivers has shown he can easily justify a spot there. Were I not a fan, I'd probably agree on 7.

255979119
07-08-2007, 05:04 PM
Vince Young 8?.....You know what I'm just not gonna say anything lol.

Meh he won games. I wouldn't put him in my top ten yet. But he is getting there.

KILLERSANTA
07-08-2007, 05:17 PM
1.Peyton Manning
2.Carson Palmer
3.Tom Brady
4.Drew Brees
5.Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Philip Rivers
8. Tony Romo
9. Matt Hasselbeck
10. J.P. Losman

yo123
07-08-2007, 07:10 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Brees
5. McNabb
6. Bulger
7. Hass
8. Rivers
9. Romo
10. Kitna

Staubach12
07-08-2007, 08:56 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Matt Hasselbeck
6. Marc Bulger
7. Donovan McNabb
8. Phillip Rivers
9. J.P. Losman
10. Tony Romo

The Great Jonathan Vilma
07-09-2007, 12:04 AM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Mark Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck (not totally sold on him, but i think this is fair)
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Chad Pennington
10. Vince Young (just because he finds a way to win, and thats usually how a qb is judged)

HoopsDemon12
07-09-2007, 12:45 AM
#1 Payton manning
#2 Tom Brady
#3Carson Palmer
#4Drew Brees
#5Marc Bulger
#6Donovan McNabb
#7Matt Hasselbeck
#8Phillip Rivers
#9Jon Kitna
#10J.P Losman

Wow you guys are right i never realized it but... the QB's are hurting in the NFL

diabsoule
07-09-2007, 02:54 AM
Here are mine. I agree that after the top 7 it gets to be fairly difficult to name.

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Matt Hasselbeck
6. Marc Bulger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Brett Favre
10. Steve McNair

BrownsTown
07-09-2007, 03:03 AM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Carson Palmer
5. Matt Hasselbeck
6. Philip Rivers
7. Marc Bulger
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Chad Pennington
10. Matt Leinart

Mr. Stiller
07-09-2007, 03:54 AM
1) Tom Brady
2) Peyton Manning
3) Carson Palmer
4) Drew Brees
5) Marc Bulger
6) Donovan McNabb
7) Matt Hasselback
8) Ben Roethlisberger
9) Brett Favre
10) Philip Rivers

Caddy
07-09-2007, 06:05 AM
1 | Peyton Manning
2 | Tom Brady
3 | Carson Palmer
4 | Drew Brees
5 | Marc Bulger
6 | Donovan McNabb
7 | Phillip Rivers
8 | Matt Hasselbeck
9 | Ben Roethlisberger
10 | Brett Favre

islandboy843
07-09-2007, 06:13 AM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hassleback
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Brett Favre
10. Ben Roethlisberger

Addict
07-09-2007, 06:41 AM
Next to Oaktown. Didn't Detroit have the worst pass blocking line?

yeah they did which is why Kitna deserves some credit.

bored of education
07-09-2007, 06:42 AM
1. Peyton
2. Brady
3. Palmer
4. Brees
5. Bulger
6. Rivers
7. McNabb
8. Big Ben
9. Hasselbeck
10. Losman

49erfanatic
07-09-2007, 12:10 PM
1. Manning
2. Brady
3. Palmer
4. Brees
5. Hasselbeck
6. McNabb
7. Bulger
8. Young
9. Farve
10. Rivers

Shiver
07-09-2007, 12:20 PM
1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Marc Bulger
5. Drew Brees
6. Matt Hasselbeck
7. Donovan McNabb
8. Philip Rivers
9. Michael Vick
10. JP Losman

GB12
07-09-2007, 12:25 PM
You can do you're top 10 anyway like what they have done in their career or last 3-5 years doesn't matter.

You have to do something specific or lists will be completely different. It seems like most people are doing lists for who will be best this year, so maybe just go with that.

neko4
07-09-2007, 12:32 PM
1-Manning
2-Palmer
3-Brady
4-Brees
5-Bulger
6-McNabb
7-Hassleback
8-Favre
9-Roethlisburger
10-Eli/Vick

I think its a year to early to tell if Young, Romo and RIvers are the real deal, but after this year they should be Top 10

Pack_Attack_4
07-09-2007, 12:34 PM
1.Peyton Manning
2.Tom Brady
3.Carson Palmer
4.Drew Brees
5.Marc Bulger
6.Brett Favre
7.Matt Hasselbeck
8.Phil Rivers
9.Mcnabb (when hes healthy witch is never)
10.Vince Young

Shiver
07-09-2007, 12:44 PM
I strongly disagree with anyone that has either Vince Young or Brett Favre in their top-10 rankings.

Brett Favre hasn't been a decent, let alone great, Quarterback since the disaster that was the '04 playoff game against the Vikings. Counting that game he has 39 touchdowns to 51 interceptions in the past 33 games. That is in no way indicative top-10 QB. You might as well put Eli Manning and Rex Grossman up there!

Vince Young simply hasn't proven anything. He isn't even as good as Michael Vick, either as a passer or runner, yet. There is no tangible evidence that he will develop to be better, though he might. It's just too early to anoint him as a great QB, while he still is a lousy passer. Don't even start on the "he's a winner!" line. Only in a few of "his" wins was he actually the primary reason behind the victory. Let's wait a year before Vince Young gets such accolades. Otherwise, you're looking at Michael Vick of '02 all over again, where he is prematurely hyped.

princefielder28
07-09-2007, 12:54 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Matt Hasselbeck
7. Donavan McNabb (due to injury otherise he'd be 6th)
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Vince Young
10. Brett Favre

tylerb929
07-09-2007, 01:10 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Drew Brees
4. Tom Brady
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Philip Rivers
9. J.P. Losman
10. Jon Kitna

yodabear
07-09-2007, 02:30 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Carson Palmer
5. Matt Hasselbeck
6. Philip Rivers
7. Marc Bulger
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Chad Pennington
10. Matt Leinart

Rivers is not better than McNabb and Bulger and Hasselbeck isn't as good as those two either.

SuperMcGee
07-09-2007, 03:11 PM
I dont see how you all have Palmer over Brady.

The first seven lists all did. Surprising at the least.

Anyway...

1 - Peyton Manning
2 - Tom Brady
3 - Carson Palmer
4 - Drew Brees
5 - Donovan McNabb
6 - Marc Bulger
7 - Matt Hasselebck
8 - Philip Rivers
9 - Michael Vick
t-10 - Chad Pennington
t-10 - JP Losman

TACKLE
07-09-2007, 03:21 PM
Vince Young 8?.....You know what I'm just not gonna say anything lol.

I put VY at 8 because I believe the best QB is the one who gives you the best chance to win. He's isn't the guy with who will throw for a lot of yards or has the best QB rating, but he wins games even though he had the worst Defence in the NFL. When it comes down to it, the WIN is all that matters

PoopSandwich
07-09-2007, 03:27 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Philip Rivers
8. Mike Vick
9. J.P Losman
10. Tony Romo

Shaky list, but this is more of how I think this year will turn out.

LarryJohnson27
07-09-2007, 03:57 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Chad Pennington
10. Ben Roethlisberger

TitleTown088
07-09-2007, 04:04 PM
I strongly disagree with anyone that has either Vince Young or Brett Favre in their top-10 rankings.


I'm actually not goign to say somthing like , " Brett Favre is top 10 !!!!" but,
dude, you got Mike Vick in your top ten. That's worse than having Favre in there.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-09-2007, 04:13 PM
I'm actually not goign to say somthing like , " Brett Favre is top 10 !!!!" but,
dude, you got Mike Vick in your top ten. That's worse than having Favre in there.

Bahahhaha. Not even close bud. Vick is a superior QB to Farve right now.

TitleTown088
07-09-2007, 04:18 PM
Bahahhaha. Not even close bud. Vick is a superior QB to Farve right now.

Care to prove your ever convincing argument?

Shiver
07-09-2007, 04:30 PM
Care to prove your ever convincing argument?

I could say the same about you. Michael Vick's one downfall, of which the critics are always harping on, is his passer rating. The past two years he has a higher passer rating than Brett Farve. To be better than Michael Vick, to equal his home run ability as a runner, you need to be a flat out superior passer. That's because Michael Vick changes the entire complexion of the game, in ways few QBs in NFL history (Vince Young being the lone exception in today's NFL) have been able to do. At least as a passer he has more touchdowns than interceptions, which is more than you can say about Brett Favre.

Favre is only making lists based on nostalgia. If he wasn't a former MVP, Hall of Fame caliber, player, people would deride him like they do Rex Grossman. Who at this point, in the '05-present era, is better than Favre is. People have turned blinded themselves to just how lousy Favre is, at this point in his career. If anything he is holding the Packers back.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-09-2007, 04:33 PM
Care to prove your ever convincing argument?


Sure, I thought the Favre TD-Turnover rate Shiver posted was more than enough, but whatever.


Including fumbles and overall touchdowns this is Favre over the last two seasons:


39 touchdowns to 59 turnovers


Vick:

43 touchdowns to 34

That proves Vick is a more valuable QB, but if you want to take away the rushing and fumbles, Vick is 35 to 26. Farve is 38/47.

And since 2005 was their worst seasons, if you want to look to last year


With rushing and fumbles:

Favre: 19/22
Vick: 22/16


Without:

Favre:18/18
Vick:20/13


Regardless of how you feel about Vick, he belongs on this list over the likes of Vince Young, Brett Favre, and Tony Romo. He is in that 8-10 range.

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:35 PM
I could say the same about you. Michael Vick's one downfall, of which the critics are always harping on, is his passer rating. The past two years he has a higher passer rating than Brett Farve. To be better than Michael Vick, to equal his home run ability as a runner, you need to be a flat out superior passer. That's because Michael Vick changes the entire complexion of the game, in ways few QBs in NFL history (Vince Young being the lone exception in today's NFL) have been able to do. At least as a passer he has more touchdowns than interceptions, which is more than you can say about Brett Favre.

Favre is only making lists based on nostalgia. If he wasn't a former MVP, Hall of Fame caliber, player, people would deride him like they do Rex Grossman. Who at this point, in the '05-present era, is better than Favre is. People have turned blinded themselves to just how lousy Favre is, at this point in his career. If anything he is holding the Packers back.



Yea Vick has had a better QB Rating, but only by a few points. You would expect somebody like Vick who's going in his 7th year to be head and shoulders above an old man like Favre, but he isn't.

Shiver
07-09-2007, 04:36 PM
If you don't think Vick is a top-10 QB, that's fine. However, I would LOVE to hear a rationale as to why Favre is a top-10 QB. It boggles my mind.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-09-2007, 04:38 PM
Yea Vick has had a better QB Rating, but only by a few points. You would expect somebody like Vick who's going in his 7th year to be head and shoulders above an old man like Favre, but he isn't.


TD's to turnovers my friend. Read the post I made breaking the stats down. Even when I took away makes Vick extra valuable, he is still better than Favre.

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:38 PM
If you don't think Vick is a top-10 QB, that's fine. However, I would LOVE to hear a rationale as to why Favre is a top-10 QB. It boggles my mind.

His career numbers.

Shiver
07-09-2007, 04:40 PM
His career numbers.

Top-10 all-time, sure. As for the here and now, no way.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-09-2007, 04:40 PM
His career numbers.


By that logic, how aren't Marino and Elway on this?

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:42 PM
TD's to turnovers my friend. Read the post I made breaking the stats down. Even when I took away makes Vick extra valuable, he is still better than Favre.

Yep that's fine and dandy and all that, but he isn't head and shoulders above Favre, but you can make a case that Favre's worse year is better than Vick's best year.

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:43 PM
By that logic, how aren't Marino and Elway on this?

They aren't playing right now.

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:44 PM
Top-10 all-time, sure. As for the here and now, no way.

The rules for this thing.

You can do you're top 10 anyway like what they have done in their career or last 3-5 years doesn't matter

ATLDirtyBirds
07-09-2007, 04:45 PM
Yep that's fine and dandy and all that, but he isn't head and shoulders above Favre, but you can make a case that Favre's worse year is better than Vick's best year.


How? How in the hell can you make a case for 20/29 season over a 20/13 season?

Shiver
07-09-2007, 04:47 PM
The rules for this thing.

You can do you're top 10 anyway like what they have done in their career or last 3-5 years doesn't matter

Well that's stupid, in my opinion. It just is a poor way to run an "All-NFLDC" rankings, when there is no set standard. Secondly; I shouldn't have been called out for my list then, because I was doing "my" list based on the present.

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:48 PM
How? How in the hell can you make a case for 20/29 season over a 20/13 season?

Favre's Yards Average is better, and his Completion percentage is better.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-09-2007, 04:50 PM
Favre's Yards Average is better, and his Completion percentage is better.


What affects a game more? Yards and Completions, or Touchdowns and Turnovers?

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:52 PM
Well that's stupid, in my opinion. It just is a poor way to run an "All-NFLDC" rankings, when there is no set standard. Secondly; I shouldn't have been called out for my list then, because I was doing "my" list based on the present.

Looking back on the posts nobody called you're list out. When you made the statement that Young and Favre should not be in the Top 10 that's when a Packer fan disagreed with you then that's when I felt like debating for giggles and grins.

Shiver
07-09-2007, 04:54 PM
Looking back on the posts nobody called you're list out. When you made the statement that Young and Favre should not be in the Top 10 that's when a Packer fan disagreed with you then that's when I felt like debating for giggles and grins.


I'm actually not goign to say somthing like , " Brett Favre is top 10 !!!!" but,
dude, you got Mike Vick in your top ten. That's worse than having Favre in there.

That was a call out, no matter how you spin it.

GB12
07-09-2007, 04:54 PM
The rules for this thing.

You can do you're top 10 anyway like what they have done in their career or last 3-5 years doesn't matter

Well if your list is based on careers then Favre is far and away #1 among current QBs. Past 5 years he is top ten, past 3 probably not, right now no.

Thats why I said there should be one topic. You can't combine career lists with current lists, one or the other.

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:55 PM
What affects a game more? Yards and Completions, or Touchdowns and Turnovers?

Obviously TD and TOs, but you can't just take a piece of the pie you have to look at the whole thing. Like I said you can debate Vick or Favre which should be unnecessary since Vick is a much younger QB and he should be without a doubt better than Favre.

princefielder28
07-09-2007, 04:56 PM
Well if your list is based on careers then Favre is far and away #1 among current QBs. Past 5 years he is top ten, past 3 probably not, right now no.

Thats why I said there should be one topic. You can't combine career lists with current lists, one or the other.

GB you are right 100%

22,895
07-09-2007, 04:56 PM
That was a call out, no matter how you spin it.

Yea it is a call out but he's not calling out you're list.

Shiver
07-09-2007, 04:58 PM
He said that having Vick in the top-10 is "worse" than having Favre in a top-10 list, which is rather absurd if the basis of my list is solely on the present and future. That constitutes as an attack on the legitimacy of my list.

princefielder28
07-09-2007, 04:59 PM
He said that having Vick in the top-10 is "worse" than having Favre in a top-10 list, which is rather absurd if the basis of my list is solely on the present and future. That constitutes as an attack on the legitimacy of my list.

It's an opinionated forum and thread, and I think we should all settle down

moc182
07-09-2007, 05:01 PM
1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Tony Romo
9. Vince Young
10. Brett Favre

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 05:03 PM
1.) Peyton Manning
2.) Tom Brady
3.) Drew Brees
4.) Carson Palmer
5.) Donovan McNabb
6.) Marc Bulger
7.) Phillip Rivers
8.) Matt Hasselbeck
9.) Brett Favre
10.) Chad Pennington

TACKLE
07-09-2007, 05:37 PM
Let's move on to Running Backs

Here's my top ten

1. LT
2. Larry Johnson
3. Steven Jackson
4. Frank Gore
5. Shaun Alexander
6. Clinton Portis
7. Brian Westbrook
8. Rudi Johnson
9. Willie Parker
10. Maurice Jones-Drew

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 05:46 PM
1.) LT
2.) LJ
3.) Steven Jackson
4.) Frank Gore
5.) Brian Westbrook
6.) Clinton Portis
7.) Deuce McAllister (Now 100% healthy)
8.) Willie Parker
9.) Rudi Johnson
10.) MJD

yo123
07-09-2007, 05:48 PM
1. LT
2. Steven Jackson
3. Larry Johnson
4. Frank Gore
5. Willie Parker
6. Shaun Alexander
7. Clinton Portis
8. Brian Westbrook
9. Rudi Johnson
10. Edge

DWilliams2IndyColts
07-09-2007, 05:51 PM
1)LT
2)Steven Jackson
3)LJ
4)Frank Gore
5)MJD
6)Brian Westbrook
7)Rudi Johnson
8)Fred Taylor
9)Travis Henry
10)Clinton Portis

simms2clayton
07-09-2007, 05:57 PM
1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Marc Bulger
5. Drew Brees
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Chad Pennington
10. Trent Green

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 06:09 PM
Let's move on to Running Backs

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Marc Bulger
5. Drew Brees
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Chad Pennington
10. Trent Green
A little late eh? lol.

PoopSandwich
07-09-2007, 06:09 PM
1. LT
2. LJ
3. Steven Jackson
4. Frank Gore
5. Willie Parker
6. Westy
7. Shaun Alexander
8. Clinton Portis
9. Travis Henry
10. Rudi Johnson

Honroable mention goes to the two headed monster Deuce McCalister and Reggie Bush.

cardsalltheway
07-09-2007, 06:22 PM
1. LT
2. Larry Johnson
3. Steven Jackson
4. Frank Gore
5. Brian Westbrook
6. Willie Parker
7. Shaun Alexander
8. Rudi Johnson
9. Deuce McCalister
10. Joseph Addai

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 06:28 PM
I had an argument with my friend about the QB list so first id like to post that and get it out of the way.. forgive my tardiness

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Donovan Mcnabb
5. Matt Hasselback
6. Marc Bulger
7. Drew Brees
8. Brett Favre
9. Michael Vick
10. Big Ben
11. Chad Pennington
12. Trent Green
13. Vince Young
14. Phillip Rivers
15. Tony Romo
16. Steve McNair
17. Jake Delhomme
18. Sheli Manning
19. Rex Grossman
20. JP losman

Running Backs
1. Ladainian Tomlinson
2. Steven Jackson
3. Frank Gore
4. Larry Johnson
5. Maurice Jones Drew
6. Reggie Bush
7. Brian Westbrook
8. Rudi Johnson
9. Shaun Alexander
10. Willie Parker

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 06:32 PM
I had an argument with my friend about the QB list so first id like to post that and get it out of the way.. forgive my tardiness

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Donovan Mcnabb
5. Matt Hasselback
6. Marc Bulger
7. Drew Brees
8. Brett Favre
9. Michael Vick
10. Big Ben
11. Chad Pennington
12. Trent Green
13. Vince Young
14. Phillip Rivers
15. Tony Romo
16. Steve McNair
17. Jake Delhomme
18. Sheli Manning
19. Rex Grossman
20. JP losman

Running Backs
1. Ladainian Tomlinson
2. Steven Jackson
3. Frank Gore
4. Larry Johnson
5. Maurice Jones Drew
6. Reggie Bush
7. Brian Westbrook
8. Rudi Johnson
9. Shaun Alexander
10. Joseph Addai
How Brees is not a top 3 QB, much less top 5 blows my mind.

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 06:36 PM
How Brees is not a top 3 QB, much less top 5 blows my mind.

As a charger fan, ive known about what Brees can do before he had this amazing year. His best talent is being on a good team, its not his fault thats a crime in my eyes when evaluating talent. I like the players in front of him, but i understand and respect your argument.

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 06:37 PM
As a charger fan, ive known about what Brees can do before he had this amazing year. His best talent is being on a good team, its not his fault thats a crime in my eyes when evaluating talent. I like the players in front of him, but i understand and respect your argument.And I thank you for that. But what he did last year with a bunch of unknowns was remarkable.

cardsalltheway
07-09-2007, 06:38 PM
How Brees is not a top 3 QB, much less top 5 blows my mind.

I hate Drew Brees with a firey passion and wouldn't even consider not putting him top 5.

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 06:41 PM
I hate Drew Brees with a firey passion and wouldn't even consider not putting him top 5.I hate Carson Palmer and Tom Brady with a passion but I respect what they do because they are damn good at it. Brees is damn good at what he does and deserves the recognition whether you like him or not.

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 06:42 PM
I hate Drew Brees with a firey passion and wouldn't even consider not putting him top 5.

Id like to know why you hate him, and id also like to ask if you can remember why the NFL was calling for the chargers to draft a QB to replace him. I know quarterbacks can grow and become better players, but so can the others around them. He had the best RB, FB, TE as well as possesion recievers, and the most winningest active head coach. He went from that to a team with a power running game, as well as the most electifying talent in the league. It would be hard to dispute the fact that throwing to bush and pounding the ball in the running game did not directly attribute to his greatness.

GB12
07-09-2007, 06:48 PM
How Brees is not a top 3 QB, much less top 5 blows my mind.

Not top 3? Top three is Manning, Brady, Palmer. Brees doesn't top one of them so no top 3. I don't agrees with him putting Hass at 6, but certainly a case can be made for McNabb and Bulger. 4-6 is the range that Brees fits in.

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 06:49 PM
Not top 3? Top three is Manning, Brady, Palmer. Brees doesn't top one of them so no top 3. I don't agrees with him putting Hass at 6, but certainly a case can be made for McNabb and Bulger. 4-6 is the range that Brees fits in.Well I think Brees>Palmer

Anyway this is getting off topic and that it my fault. Back on topic.

cardsalltheway
07-09-2007, 06:51 PM
Id like to know why you hate him, and id also like to ask if you can remember why the NFL was calling for the chargers to draft a QB to replace him. I know quarterbacks can grow and become better players, but so can the others around them. He had the best RB, FB, TE as well as possesion recievers, and the most winningest active head coach. He went from that to a team with a power running game, as well as the most electifying talent in the league. It would be hard to dispute the fact that throwing to bush and pounding the ball in the running game did not directly attribute to his greatness.

I hate him because he went to Purdue and I'm a huge IU football fan.

I don't know what you're getting at with that statement. His run game dropped off a good amount from SD and while his receievers are better, neither Colston nor Horn is a top 10 receiver while Gates was and still is far and away the best receieving tight end in the game. Bush was very good in the pass game, but he didn't do much with the many passes he caught and Brees still had the most yards of any QB in the league. At best, you could argue that the offensive talent is the same as he had in SD, but I don't think it's better in any way, shape or form.

princefielder28
07-09-2007, 06:52 PM
Well I think Brees>Palmer

Anyway this is getting off topic and that it my fault. Back on topic.

You could make a fair argument that Brees is better statistically but with everything that Carson brings to the table he is the better overall QB.

tylerb929
07-09-2007, 06:53 PM
Carson wins between him and Brees based on phsical attributes, arm and height.

Dam8610
07-09-2007, 07:09 PM
1. LaDainian Tomlinson
2. Steven Jackson
3. Larry Johnson
4. Frank Gore
5. Clinton Portis
6. Edgerrin James
7. Rudi Johnson
8. Brian Westbrook
9. Shaun Alexander
10. Joseph Addai

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 07:15 PM
I hate him because he went to Purdue and I'm a huge IU football fan.

I don't know what you're getting at with that statement. His run game dropped off a good amount from SD and while his receievers are better, neither Colston nor Horn is a top 10 receiver while Gates was and still is far and away the best receieving tight end in the game. Bush was very good in the pass game, but he didn't do much with the many passes he caught and Brees still had the most yards of any QB in the league. At best, you could argue that the offensive talent is the same as he had in SD, but I don't think it's better in any way, shape or form.

I'm sorry if i wasnt clear, but i did not mean to say that New Orleans was better than SD or any of that really. Instead i was saying that they were both top notch offenses and he benefited from them. He was a horrible quarterback early on in his career, and it wasnt until the players around him got very good (like tomlinson and gates) that he got good. I'm just sayin that he could never do what brady does or hasselback does and play with a below average offense and make it above average. Brees is a very nice compliment, not the focus. That is why i did not not have him in the top 5.

cardsalltheway
07-09-2007, 07:21 PM
I disagree that he's only a complement on the offense. I think he is far and away the best player on the offense and the team as a whole. Deuce is a good back but he's injuryprone and even when healthy I don't know if he ranks in the top 5. Colston is not even in the top 10 as far as receievers go and Reggie might get all the media attention, but he has been far from great, especially in the run game.

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 07:26 PM
I disagree that he's only a complement on the offense. I think he is far and away the best player on the offense and the team as a whole. Deuce is a good back but he's injuryprone and even when healthy I don't know if he ranks in the top 5. Colston is not even in the top 10 as far as receievers go and Reggie might get all the media attention, but he has been far from great, especially in the run game.

yeah but saying hes the best indivisual player doesnt mean hes the centerpiece. Their offense is built around bush, he makes it safe to be a quarterback. Think about the dimensions he brings to the game that allow him to be as good as he is.

What i meant by calling him a compliment is that you cannot take a seperate team and start it with him and still get the same results. he needs a good team to make great, because he cant make a bad team good like the players ahead of him (peyton manning, carson palmer, tom brady donovan mcnabb, hasselback, bulger)

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 07:27 PM
OK i'm going to gather some facts and then start a Brees vs Palmer thread. Lets stay on topic shall we?

yeah but saying hes the best indivisual player doesnt mean hes the centerpiece. Their offense is built around bush, he makes it safe to be a quarterback. Think about the dimensions he brings to the game that allow him to be as good as he is.

What i meant by calling him a compliment is that you cannot take a seperate team and start it with him and still get the same results. he needs a good team to make great, because he cant make a bad team good like the players ahead of him (peyton manning, carson palmer, tom brady donovan mcnabb, hasselback, bulger)BTW, Brees runs that team. We don't make the playoffs without Brees.

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 07:30 PM
OK i'm going to gather some facts and then start a Brees vs Palmer thread. Lets stay on topic shall we?

BTW, Brees runs that team. We don't make the playoffs without Brees.

First, which topic are we discussing because as far as im concerned i believe we are discussing where Brees belongs in the rankings if youd like me to change that i would be happy to..

As far as brees running the team i believe that is true, for him and many other quarterbacks in the league. It comes with the position.

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 07:35 PM
First, which topic are we discussing because as far as im concerned i believe we are discussing where Brees belongs in the rankings if youd like me to change that i would be happy to..

As far as brees running the team i believe that is true, for him and many other quarterbacks in the league. It comes with the position.Just strictly to the positional rankings. I don't want to be the guy who threadjacked this.

Hines
07-09-2007, 07:45 PM
1. LaDainian Tomlinson
2. Steven Jackson
3. Larry Johnson
4. Frank Gore
5. Clinton Portis
6. Edgerrin James
7. Rudi Johnson
8. Brian Westbrook
9. Shaun Alexander
10. Joseph Addai


no willie?

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 07:55 PM
no willie?

any list with edge james on it sure as hell should have willie parker on it

LarryJohnson27
07-09-2007, 08:08 PM
1. Ladanian Tomlinson
2. Larry Johnson
3. Steven Jackson
4. Frank Gore
5. Shaun Alexander
6. Brian Westbrook
7. Willie Parker
8. Rudi Johnson
9. Edgerrin James
10. Clinton Portis

BamaFalcon59
07-09-2007, 08:20 PM
QB:
1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Michael Vick
9. Phillip Rivers
10. Tony Romo

RB
1. LaDainian Tomlinson
2. Larry Johnson
3. Steven Jackson
4. Rudi Johnson
5. Frank Gore
6. Edgerrin James
7. Brian Westbrook
8. Willie Parker
9. Clinton Portis
10. Deuce McAllister

While QB is extremely thin, RB is very deep. There are Shaun Alexander, Laurence Maroney, Joseph Addai, Willis McGahee, Ronnie Brown, Chester Taylor, Cadillac Williams, Thomas Jones, Jamal Lewis, Fred Taylor, Maurice Jones Drew, and Travis Henry still available. All either multi 1,000 yard season guys or potential 1,300 plus yard guys. Thomas Jones and Shaun Alexander probably deserve to be on my list.

Hines
07-09-2007, 08:25 PM
1.lt
2.s jack
3.lj
4.gore
5.fwp
6.westbrook
7.alexander
8.portis
9.rudi johnson
10.addai

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 08:26 PM
nobody really feels RBs are all that different, but i bet WR will be different, ill go first.

1. Steve Smith
2. Marvin Harrison
3. Torry Holt
4. Chad Johnson
5. Terrell Owens
6. Reggie Wayne
7. Roy Williams
8. Larry Fitgerald
9. Anquan Boldin
10. Andre Johnson
11. Hines Ward
12. Javon Walker
13. Donald Driver
14. TJ Hoosh
15. Lee Evans
16. Marques Colston
17. Laverneus Coles
18. Randy Moss
19. Bernard Berrian
20. Plaxico Burress

keylime_5
07-09-2007, 08:27 PM
QBs:

1-Peyton Manning
2-Tom Brady
3-Carson Palmer
4-Drew Brees
5-Donovan McNabb
6-Marc Bulger
7-Brett Favre
8-Matt Hasselbeck
9-Vince Young
10-Eli Manning (he'll bounce back)

RBs:
1-LaDanian Tomlinson
2-Steven Jackson
3-Larry Johnson
4-Shaun Alexander
5-Frank Gore
6-Clinton Portis
7-Rudi Johnson
8-Edgerrin James
9-Brian Westbrook
10-Willie Parker

WRs:
1-Steve Smith
2-Chad Johnson
3-Torry Holt
4-Marvin Harrison
5-Randy Moss (he'll bounce back too)
6-Terrell Owens
7-Andre Johnson
8-Hines Ward
9-Larry Fitzgerald
10-Roy WIlliams

BamaFalcon59
07-09-2007, 08:30 PM
Isn't it top 10?

1. Chad Johnson
2. Steve Smith
3. Marvin Harrison
4. Torry Holt
5. Anquan Boldin
6. Andre Johnson
7. Roy Williams
8. Terrell Owens
9. Javon Walker
10. Reggie Wayne

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 08:32 PM
it could be top 10, but then again is that a rule or a suggestion.. my preference is to list those that i can which is 20.

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 08:37 PM
Are we moving to WR's?

1.) Steve Smith
2.) Roy Williams
3.) Chad Johnson
4.) Marvin Harrison
5.) Torry Holt
6.) Reggie Wayne
7.) Javon Walker
8.) T.O.
9.) Anquan Boldin
10.) Andre Johnson

yo123
07-09-2007, 08:51 PM
1. Torry Holt
2. Steve Smith
3. Marvin Harrison
4. Anquan Boldin
5. Chad Johnson
6. Larry Fitzgerald
7. T.O.
8. Roy Williams
9. TJ Hoosh
10. Reggie Wayne

PalmerToCJ
07-09-2007, 08:56 PM
WR

1. Steve Smith
2. Marvin Harrison
3. Chad Johnson
4. Tory Holt
5. Roy Williams
6. Anquan Boldin
7. Andre Johnson
8. TO
9. Javon Walker
10. Larry Fitzgerald

Steve Smith #1 because he has potential to take it to the house everytime the ball touches his hands, Harrison #2 for consistancy and Chad #3 because he's the best deep threat in the game. Housh has the best hands, I didn't list him for fear of being a homer.

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 08:57 PM
1. Torry Holt
2. Steve Smith
3. Marvin Harrison
4. Anquan Boldin
5. Chad Johnson
6. Larry Fitzgerald
7. T.O.
8. Roy Williams
9. TJ Hoosh
10. Reggie Wayne

How is boldin so high and Fitzgerald ahead of TO roy williams reggie wayne? where is andre johnson? 11th maybe

tylerb929
07-09-2007, 09:02 PM
any list with edge james on it sure as hell should have willie parker on it

That really depends, are you talking about their future? because if your talking about there hole career willie won't come close to edge. But if your talking about their future, well then you comparing the Cards to the Steelers (which are run oriented).

Hines
07-09-2007, 09:04 PM
That really depends, are you talking about their future? because if your talking about there hole career willie won't come close to edge. But if your talking about their future, well then you comparing the Cards to the Steelers (which are run oriented).

um willie is only in his third year really

and edge is like goin into his nineth i believe

yo123
07-09-2007, 09:05 PM
How is boldin so high and Fitzgerald ahead of TO roy williams reggie wayne? where is andre johnson? 11th maybe



Because people for some reason underrated Boldin. Hes caught 100 or more balls in 2 of his 4 years, and he might have done it in 3 years if he didnt get hurt in 2004. The onnly reason he isnt known as a top 5 receiver is he doesnt catch a ton of TD's, which is because Fitz is such a good red zone target he takes away Boldins chances.

And Fitz is ahead of TO because he doesnt drop half the number of balls Owens does. Why shouldnt he be ahead of Reggie Wayne or Roy Williams Roy has had one really good year and Wayne wouldnt be half of the receiver that he is without Harrison.

yo123
07-09-2007, 09:07 PM
How is boldin so high and Fitzgerald ahead of TO roy williams reggie wayne? where is andre johnson? 11th maybe



Sorry for the double post but Andre Johnson is severely overrated on this board. Hes caught 17 TD's through 4 years

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 09:07 PM
and Wayne wouldnt be half of the receiver that he is without Harrison.I respectfully disagree with this. I think Wayne could hold his own.

yodabear
07-09-2007, 09:11 PM
Just venting a bit.....how can we have a top 10 QB, a top 5 RB, and for people who know football:a top 5 WR, and still suck? Oh yeah, we don't have a defense. Defense wins things. That is all.

1. Smith
2. Chad Johnson
3. Holt
4. Harrison
5. Roy Williams
6. Fitzgerald
7. Boldin
8. Wayne
9. Andre Johnson
10. Santana Moss

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 09:12 PM
Sorry for the double post but Andre Johnson is severely overrated on this board. Hes caught 17 TD's through 4 years

i think you underestimate the posters on this board, nobody has him ranked too high because everyone has realized he is easy to overrate. i think 10 is a great spot for him, he caught 100 balls this year and thats best in the league. To say that he is overrated maybe true, but to say it here is just posting before you think.

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 09:15 PM
Just venting a bit.....how can we have a top 10 QB, a top 5 RB, and for people who know football:a top 5 WR, and still suck? Oh yeah, we don't have a defense. Defense wins things. That is all.

1. Smith
2. Chad Johnson
3. Holt
4. Harrison
5. Roy Williams
6. Fitzgerald
7. Boldin
8. Owens
9. Wayne
10. Santana Moss

which team are you talking about, st louis?

Your 10 is very convential and i like it, and santana moss is intruiging and oft forgot, but maybe you forgot some other good receivers and went for the big splash?

yodabear
07-09-2007, 09:16 PM
i think you underestimate the posters on this board, nobody has him ranked too high because everyone has realized he is easy to overrate. i think 10 is a great spot for him, he caught 100 balls this year and thats best in the league. To say that he is overrated maybe true, but to say it here is just posting before you think.

U just made me edit mine, I completely forgot about him, thats prolly due to his team and crappy QBs. I think people overrate TO.

yodabear
07-09-2007, 09:17 PM
which team are you talking about, st louis?

Your 10 is very convential and i like it, and santana moss is intruiging and oft forgot, but maybe you forgot some other good receivers and went for the big splash?

Yes, St. Louis, I forgot about Andre, he is defntly a top ten. I don't like Owens.

cardsalltheway
07-09-2007, 09:22 PM
How someone can not have Anquan Boldin in their top 10 just blows my mind

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 09:28 PM
Yes, St. Louis, I forgot about Andre, he is defntly a top ten. I don't like Owens.

yeah i can agree with you about Owens its ahrd to like him, i put him 5th because he lead the league this year in TDs and because hes got 33 tds in his last 37 games.. thats impressive

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 09:32 PM
How someone can not have Anquan Boldin in their top 10 just blows my mind

yeah i agree its very hard to not have him in a top 10, he defintely deserves it, but hes no top 5 talent. In my opinion hes 8-10..

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 09:39 PM
How Brees is not a top 3 QB, much less top 5 blows my mind.

How someone can not have Anquan Boldin in their top 10 just blows my mind

At least you know how I feel :D

PalmerToCJ
07-09-2007, 09:42 PM
Not sure how it could blow your mind that Brees wouldn't be top 3 but that's the beauty of having an opinion.

art vandelay
07-09-2007, 09:47 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Phillip Rivers
8. Matt Hasselbeck
9. J.P. Losman
10. Tony Romo

Average OT LB
07-09-2007, 10:15 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Phillip Rivers
8. Matt Hasselbeck
9. J.P. Losman
10. Tony Romo

JP losman at 9? that doesnt make very much sense.

art vandelay
07-09-2007, 10:20 PM
JP losman at 9? that doesnt make very much sense.

Don't get me started, lol. All I'll say is you'll see this year. Just wait. He's going to have a HUGE year.

yo123
07-09-2007, 10:23 PM
Not sure how it could blow your mind that Brees wouldn't be top 3 but that's the beauty of having an opinion.


I'd say he could be top 3, but I dont see how it could surprise anybody if he wasnt. Palmer and him are pretty much interchangeble imo.

Acreboy
07-09-2007, 10:26 PM
I'd say he could be top 3, but I dont see how it could surprise anybody if he wasnt. Palmer and him are pretty much interchangeble imo.Although my view may be a little skewed I would have to agree with this.

BrownsTown
07-09-2007, 10:46 PM
1. Steve Smith
2. Marvin Harrison
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Chad Johnson
5. Anquan Boldin
6. Torry Holt
7. Roy Williams
8. Santana Moss
9. TO
10. Andre Johnson

LarryJohnson27
07-09-2007, 10:58 PM
1. Steve Smith
2. Chad Johnson
3. Torry Holt
4. Marvin Harrison
5. Larry Fitzgerald
6. Anquan Boldin
7. Reggie Wayne
8. Roy Williams
9. Terrell Owens
10. Andre Johnson

Just Missed: Santana Moss, Hines Ward, Lee Evans, Javon Walker, Randy Moss

Randy Moss has to come back strong to be considered top 10 again IMO, but I think he will.

Shiver
07-09-2007, 11:52 PM
Don't get me started, lol. All I'll say is you'll see this year. Just wait. He's going to have a HUGE year.

Don't worry, I have your back. I too have JP Losman as a 9-10 QB. He is far more deserving than Vince Young and Brett Favre are, in my opinion.

TitleTown088
07-10-2007, 12:16 AM
I should clarify something Shiver. I don't think that either Favre or Vick should be in the top 10. It is just my opinion that you saying Favre shouldn't be in there and then putting some one of Mike Vick's production in there is, well, I guess not "worse". But it is about the same. Mike Vick has done nothing as of late to show me he's far and above better than a 37 year old Favre. Now, I need to get my plug in for the man. I think that the reason for Favre not being in my top 10 is because of the team he's on. I know, I know, classic excuse for Favre lovers, but come on... Who the heck has he had to work with in the past couple seasons? The outstanding receiving corps in the NFL that led in drops? Yeah, that was Favre's. In 2005 his top two offensive threats( Walker, Green) were out the majority of the season and he was playing behind a makeshift offensive line. 2006 He worked with another below average line too and a bunch of rookies. I mean just look back to 04 when he had a solid cast to work with... he threw for 4100 yards 30 TDs and 17 INTs. I know Vick hasn't had another too spectacular to work with the past couple of seasons at leased receiving wise... but at leased he always had a very good run game to work with and a good TE. My point is.... In my opinion if you put Favre in a situation similar to Vick's the past couple of season, he's the better QB. I realize these are "ifs" and it is what it is. But even despite that, Vick still hasn't produced much better, if better at all.

Oh yeah, and as for Favre hurting the team, that's asinine. He gives the Packers by far and away the best chance to win. Do you realize that many scouts compared Rodgers to an URFA when the saw him in training camps and preseason? The only possible argument for Favre hurting the Packers is from a fiscal standpoint because his salary is so demanding. And even that is basically absurd for most teams other than the Packers because Favre puts fans in the seats no matter his age. However, this dosen't apply to Green bay as much as others because they will sell out every game no matter what.

BrownsTown
07-10-2007, 12:31 AM
Don't worry, I have your back. I too have JP Losman as a 9-10 QB. He is far more deserving than Vince Young and Brett Favre are, in my opinion.

I disagree, but I put in Matt Leinart cause I think he'll do great this year, so I'm not one to talk.

Average OT LB
07-10-2007, 02:40 AM
Don't get me started, lol. All I'll say is you'll see this year. Just wait. He's going to have a HUGE year.

ok JP losman is a below average quarterback that should not even deserve to see his name in the top half of the league let alone the top 10. Let me just start this off by saying that i think JP has a strong arm and thats it.

So you put him into your top ten for a few reasons, your a buffalo fan, and you see his potential. Now im not gonna argue the bias thats foolish, so ill focus on the potential part. Now I'm assuming that because you're a fan you've seen all the games and saw how he was getting better blah blah and thats why you think he'll explode next year.

Putting that aside just for now, ill go into a few example of the exact same type of quarterback that has the same label but are all better and should be placed in front of Losman in any list. These quarterbacks are not exactly top 10, but because they are better than Losman, it proves that losman is not a top 10 quarterback. Leinart, Young, and Cutler are three quarterbacks that got better as the year went on and showed their talent. Young was the ROY and led the league in QB rushing tds with 7. With his versitility in the red zone he is a better option than losman. Leinart, although highly disliked, has a new coach from a proven franchise that will turn things around. hes got a great running back in edge, as well as two WRs that are both top 10 in the league. Cutler threw 9 tds in 5 games last year, hes got brandon stokley travis henry and the TE from the pats as additions in the offseason. Not to mention he already has brandon marshall and jevon walker who were both very good last year. With all those options and a great coach (solid D) he is a much better quarterback then Losman.

Back to losman, the only thing he is good at is throwing INTs Fumbling and getting sacked. Sure he can chuck a long ball to evans and evans can run faster then michael johnson on steroids but thats it. With the rookie running back coming in to start, all things will be on losmans shoulders to pull through.

To say JP is going to have a good year next year just doesnt make any sense unless your a buffalo fan. There is a better chance of him getting hurt again then him throwing 20 touchdowns this year. Remember that although your team has low expectations, a slight improvement or duplication of his last season is not good by any means. He has yet to prove he can win in the NFL.

islandboy843
07-10-2007, 06:51 AM
1. Steve Smith
2. Marvin Harrison
3. Chad Johnson
4. Torry Holt
5. Larry Fitzgerald
6. Roy Williams
7. Anquan Boldin
8. T.O
9. Andre Johnson
10. Reggie Wayne

skinzzfan25
07-10-2007, 08:06 AM
1. Steve Smith
2. Marvin Harrison
3. Chad Johnson
4. Roy Williams
5. Terrell Owens
6. Santana Moss
7. Anqan Boldin
8. Marques Colston
9. Torry Holt
10. Lee Evans

DeathbyStat
07-10-2007, 08:21 AM
1.Tom Brady

2.Peyton Manning

3.Carson Palmer

4.Mcnabb-

5.Brees

.......everyone else

6.Bulger

7.Hassleback

8.Rivers

9.Big Ben

10.Losman

scottyboy
07-10-2007, 09:32 AM
i really like Losman's upside. He's got a cannon and a very good young WR in Lee evans. plus, my aunt is his travel agent :D

JK17
07-10-2007, 10:05 AM
Okay we'll I'll get back to the rankings since it looks like I missed RB and WR now...

RB
1. LaDainain Tomlinson
2. Steven Jackson
3. Larry Johnson
4. Frank Gore
5. Rudi Johnson
6. Clinton Portis
7. Brian Westbrook
8. Shaun Alexander
9. Willie Parker
10. Laurence Maroney

The first three are pretty safe for rankings, after that there's a large cluster that could pretty much go anywhere, so this is my personal preference for the order which I would want them in my backfield. Also, I'm assuming they'll play healthy seasons, as 4-8 all could have them knocked down with injury concerns.

WR
1. Chad Johnson
2. Torry Holt
3. Steve Smith
4. Marvin Harrison
5. Larry Fitzgerald
6. Roy Williams
7. Terrell Owens
8. Reggie Wayne
9. Andre Johnson
10. Javon Walker

Wide Receivers are always going to be debatable, but again, its mostly personal preference with who I want my QB throwing too. The most notable guys I left out, Boldin, Driver, Evans, etc. all easily could be in here, too, its hard to distinguish just ten receivers though.

Smooth Criminal
07-10-2007, 10:09 AM
I don't think Losman is a Top 10 QB yet. Up until this year he was the punchline in many people's jokes and I don't think 1 year of a decent performance is enough to rank him in the top 10.

Same goes for Rivers and Romo. Esspecially Romo since he didn't even start the entire year.

Shiver
07-10-2007, 10:54 AM
I don't think Losman is a Top 10 QB yet. Up until this year he was the punchline in many people's jokes and I don't think 1 year of a decent performance is enough to rank him in the top 10.

Same goes for Rivers and Romo. Esspecially Romo since he didn't even start the entire year.

The fact of the matter is after the first seven or so, that is all you have. The quality depth at the QB position is atrocious.

JK17
07-10-2007, 10:59 AM
I don't think Losman is a Top 10 QB yet. Up until this year he was the punchline in many people's jokes and I don't think 1 year of a decent performance is enough to rank him in the top 10.

Same goes for Rivers and Romo. Esspecially Romo since he didn't even start the entire year.

Like Shiver just said, after seven there are very few players you can put in there...

If not Rivers (using him because he's my team's guy) who do you put in there? Pennington? Very few of the next 10-12 guys have either been there "long enough" or done anything significant enough to show they should be in the top ten over Rivers, or Romo. After 7 its just which inexperienced QB do you think will do best...IMO at least.

Pack_Attack_4
07-10-2007, 11:08 AM
RB
1.LT
2.Jackson
3.LJ
4.Gore
5.Alexander
6.westbrook
7.Parker
8.R.johnson
9.Addi
10.Bush (bec of his versitility)


WR
1.Smith
2.85
3.Harrison
4.Holt
5.TO
6.Driver
7.R.Williams
8.Fitz
9.A.Johnson
10.Moss (bec hes got Tom throwing to him)

neko4
07-10-2007, 11:28 AM
RB
1-LT
2-LJ
3-Gore
4-Jackson
5-Parker
6-Westbrook
7-Rudi
8-Portis
9-Edge
10-Alexander

WR
1-Steve Smith
2-Chad
3-Harrison
4-Holt
5-Boldin
6-TO
7-Driver
8-Fitz
9-Williams
10-Andre

Best First Year RB:
1-Bush
2-MJD
3-Addai
4-Maroney
5-DeAngelo
6-Norwood
7-M Bell
8-Washington
9-Robinson
10-White/Lundy

art vandelay
07-10-2007, 11:36 AM
so we can assume you're about to prove it, right? i mean, you're not just going to disagree, make a bold statement and then do absoltuely nothing to back it up, right?



to paraphrase: "i want to type some extra meaningless words that will hopefully make me sound smarter and make my post longer so it looks better and/or more important".



i think what you MEANT to say was "i'm about to list some quarterbacks and in no way whatsoever prove anything except that i can spell their last names properly". so far, i have no understanding whatsoever of why you bothered to type any of this. it's all meaningless and largely irrelevant information. maybe you'll make a point in the next bit, the one in which you were going to "prove" something?



jp losman threw 7 more td passes than young and ran for one more, meaning he accounted for mroe tds and is demonstratably a more productive quarterback. further, losman was in his third season and thus, not eligible for the ROY award. i'm marginally annoyed that you'd even mention the ROY award as if it has any bearing on any part of this argument, but whatever. you're certainly entitled to say stupid things as long as they're true.



how, exactly, does this make him a better quarterback than losman? i don't recall seeing "better supporting cast" listed in the criteria. but props on forgetting that leinart had one of the worst o-lines in the league and that the cardinals will be hoping a rookie can turn around the production completely this season. i'm sure the offensive line is completely irrelevant.



again, having a better supporting cast is an utterly moronic argument for calling someone a better quarterback. peyton manning has had a FAR better supporting cast than tom brady. so i'm assuming that due to that fact, you would've argued in recent years that manning was WAY ahead of brady as a quarterback? well, i guess you might have, but any rational person would've laughed in your face.



which is why young threw only one less interception in one less game last season than losman? why leinart threw only two less in FOUR less games? gosh, those guys are so much better at protecting the ball!



gosh, those rookie running backs. they always have such a hard time getting things going and helping the offense. i mean, MJD, addai, maroney, bush... if only they could've helped shoulder the offensive load last year. another "great" point.



and you have yet to provide a SINGLE rational piece of evidence to support a single thing you've said. if this is indicative of the general quality of your arguments in the future, i'd suggest you stop hitting "submit" until you're capable of doing at least a tiny amount of research so that, in the future, i have to actually try to find things wrong with your posts. the ONLY thing you've made clear so far is that you dislike losman on some personal level.

Post of the year. Even if I wasn't a Bills fan, I would still find this post hysterical.

49erfanatic
07-10-2007, 11:43 AM
RB's

1. LT
2. LJ
3. Frank the tank
4. S. Jackson
5. R. Johnson
6. Alexander
7. Westbrook
8. Parker
9. Maroney
10. MJD

WR's

1. Ocho Cinco
2. Holt
3. S. Smith
4. Harrison
5. Totally Outrageous
6. R. Williams
7. Fitzgerald
8. Boldin
9. Burress
10. S. Moss

Sniper
07-10-2007, 12:31 PM
QB

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Donovan McNabb
5. Drew Brees
6. Marc Bulger
7. Phil Rivers
8. Matt Hasselbeck
9. Matt Leinart (Love this guy, you can bash me for it if you want)
10. J.P Losman

RB

1. LaDainian Tomlinson
2. Steven Jackson
3. Larry Johnson
4. Brian Westbrook
5. Frank Gore
6. Shaun Alexander
7. Clinton Portis
8. Rudi Johnson
9. Lawrence Maroney
10. Edge James

WR

1. Randy Moss (there's no denying the man's skill)
2. Torry Holt
3. Ocho Cinco
4. Steve Smith
5. Terrell Owens
6. Marvin Harrison
7. Anquan Boldin
8. Larry Fitzgerald
9. Reggie Wayne
10. Roy Williams

The Great Jonathan Vilma
07-10-2007, 12:51 PM
RBs

1. Tomlinson
2. Jackson
3. Johnson
4. Gore
5. Westbrook
6. Rudi Johnson
7. Portis
8. Alexander
9. Willie Parker
10. Addai

Wr
1. Chad Johnson
2. Torry Holt
3. Steve Smith
4. Marvin Harrison
5.Roy Williams
6.Andre Johnson
7. Larry Fitz
8. Anquan Boldin
9. Reggie Wayne
10. TO (hands/drops, and a huge ego are part of making a wr, so he sits lower because u get those when u get him.)

Dam8610
07-10-2007, 12:58 PM
any list with edge james on it sure as hell should have willie parker on it

Wow, are you honestly saying Willie Parker is better than Edgerrin James? Hilarious. James may not have put up great numbers last year, but he was behind one of the worst OLs in football. Put him behind the line Willie had, and he's going to be in the neighborhood of 2000 APY and 10-15 TDs.

WR:

1) Marvin Harrison
2) Torry Holt
3) Chad Johnson
4) Terrell Owens
5) Steve Smith
6) Reggie Wayne
7) Anquan Boldin
8) Roy Williams
9) Donald Driver
10) Andre Johnson

HoopsDemon12
07-10-2007, 01:02 PM
RB's
#1 LT
#2 LJ
#3 SJ
#4 Rudi johnson
#5 Clinton Portis
#6 Frank Gore
#7 Duece McCallister
#8 Shawn Alexander
#9 Willie Parker
#10 Brian Westbrook

WR
#1 Torry Holt
#2 Steve Smith
#3 Chad Johnson
#4 Marvin harrison
#5Larry Fitzgerald
#6 Roy Williams
#7 Anquan Boldin
#8 Lee Evans
#9 T.O
#10 Sinorice Moss

My list are a little differnet and i may catch some flak on it.. but thats the way i see it... holt and smith are a toss up for me because holt is so consistent and has been fora long time... steve smith has had 3 years... i think they are 1a and 1b

49erfanatic
07-10-2007, 01:18 PM
WR

1. Randy Moss (there's no denying the man's skill)


There is no denying that you're an idiot. Randy Moss at #1? Look I know the guy is talented but there are at least 8 guys in the league who are just as talented as Moss and that don't suck the life out of the teams they're on. Moss has no business being number 1 and everybody knows that. He plays at a half assed pace, cuts his routes short, doesn't go over the middle, and his hands have gotten consistently worse over the years (probably because he's scared to get hit). Let's face it, Randy Moss has no business being #1 on any list

hornybastard
07-10-2007, 01:28 PM
WTF is this nonsense holy ---- I'm gone for a day and this place is a godd---- circus.

Sniper
07-10-2007, 02:12 PM
There is no denying that you're an idiot. Randy Moss at #1? Look I know the guy is talented but there are at least 8 guys in the league who are just as talented as Moss and that don't suck the life out of the teams they're on. Moss has no business being number 1 and everybody knows that. He plays at a half assed pace, cuts his routes short, doesn't go over the middle, and his hands have gotten consistently worse over the years (probably because he's scared to get hit). Let's face it, Randy Moss has no business being #1 on any list

Really? There's at least 8 guys that are 6'4, 225 lbs, run a 4.27 and are the single most dominant receiver when they try? I must have missed them. Give Moss a mentally competent quarterback (Brady), a halfway decent O-line to buy time and a decent playcaller and see what happens.

49erfanatic
07-10-2007, 02:31 PM
Really? There's at least 8 guys that are 6'4, 225 lbs, run a 4.27 and are the single most dominant receiver when they try? I must have missed them. Give Moss a mentally competent quarterback (Brady), a halfway decent O-line to buy time and a decent playcaller and see what happens.

He's listed at 210, not 225, he's afraid to go over the middle, and running a 40 has nothing to do with talent. If he was really the best WR in the league he would have put up numbers with any QB. Quit lying to yourself, he's getting older and although he may be one of the best 10 recievers in the league when he wants to be, there's no possible way you can justify puting him at number 1. There are many more well-rounded recievers who have similar physical attributes to Randy Moss

HoopsDemon12
07-10-2007, 02:37 PM
He's listed at 210, not 225, he's afraid to go over the middle, and running a 40 has nothing to do with talent. If he was really the best WR in the league he would have put up numbers with any QB. Quit lying to yourself, he's getting older and although he may be one of the best 10 recievers in the league when he wants to be, there's no possible way you can justify puting him at number 1. There are many more well-rounded recievers who have similar physical attributes to Randy Moss

the key part of that i think is... the number one player in the league shows up to play every season...every week... every game ... every quarter... every snap... and has the same level of effort... the great ones dont take time off... steve smith does it all.. holt does.. chad does.. marvin does.. moss doesnt and thats why it was hard for me to put him on my list

yodabear
07-10-2007, 03:19 PM
1. Steve Smith
2. Marvin Harrison
3. Chad Johnson
4. Roy Williams
5. Terrell Owens
6. Santana Moss
7. Anqan Boldin
8. Marques Colston
9. Torry Holt
10. Lee Evans

Steve Smith is better than Holt, Harrison and Johnson is debateable, I have Johnson above him, but not Harrison. Roy, TO, Moss, Boldin, and Colston aren't as good as Holt either. So ur opinion is wrong. Fitzgerald should be on the list. Colston needs to have another good year to put him in as a top ten WR.

Sniper
07-10-2007, 03:37 PM
the key part of that i think is... the number one player in the league shows up to play every season...every week... every game ... every quarter... every snap... and has the same level of effort... the great ones dont take time off... steve smith does it all.. holt does.. chad does.. marvin does.. moss doesnt and thats why it was hard for me to put him on my list

Valid point. Then again, all those guys didn't have Andrew Walter and Aaron Brooks throwing them the ball did they?

tylerb929
07-10-2007, 03:38 PM
Really? There's at least 8 guys that are 6'4, 225 lbs, run a 4.27 and are the single most dominant receiver when they try?

So your requirements to be top 10 WR are height and weight, and an unofficial 40 time on a track, and an excuse kids use when the get beat ("I wasn't really trying")?

So I guess if measurables make you the best the rest of your top WRs go
Matt Jones 6'6" 238
Plaxico Burress 6'5" 232
Calvin Johnson 6'4" 237
Vernon Davis 6'3" 253
Larry Fitzgerald 6'3" 226
Andre Johnson 6'3" 219
Braylon Edwards 6'3" 212
........

Sniper
07-10-2007, 03:39 PM
He's listed at 210, not 225, he's afraid to go over the middle, and running a 40 has nothing to do with talent. If he was really the best WR in the league he would have put up numbers with any QB. Quit lying to yourself, he's getting older and although he may be one of the best 10 recievers in the league when he wants to be, there's no possible way you can justify puting him at number 1. There are many more well-rounded recievers who have similar physical attributes to Randy Moss

Bull ******* **** he would put up numbers with any QB. You're so friggin delusional it's absurd. The Raiders had such little talent on O it was shockingly terrible. If we're knocking on afraid to go over the middle let's throw Marvin Harrison out of any possible top WR convo because he's a *****. Guarandamntee Moss gets 1,300 yards + and at least 13 TD this year if he stays healthy. Simlar physical attributes to Moss? Who? Calvin Johnson and uh.............

Sniper
07-10-2007, 03:41 PM
So your requirements to be top 10 WR are height and weight, and an unofficial 40 time on a track, and an excuse kids use when the get beat ("I wasn't really trying")?

So I guess if measurables make you the best the rest of your top WRs go
Matt Jones 6'6" 238
Plaxico Burress 6'5" 232
Calvin Johnson 6'4" 237
Vernon Davis 6'3" 253
Larry Fitzgerald 6'3" 226
Andre Johnson 6'3" 219
Braylon Edwards 6'3" 212
........

No. My top 10 requirements are what receiver has the most talent. The most talented is Randy Moss, like it or not. Vernon Davis is a TE btw.

BrownsTown
07-10-2007, 03:42 PM
I missed the RBs so

1. LT
2. Steven Jackson
3. Frank Gore
4. Larry Johnson
5. Clinton Portis
6. Rudi Johnson
7. Joseph Addai
8. Shaun Alexander
9. Deuce McCalister
10. Brian Westbrook

Average OT LB
07-10-2007, 04:22 PM
so we can assume you're about to prove it, right? i mean, you're not just going to disagree, make a bold statement and then do absoltuely nothing to back it up, right?



to paraphrase: "i want to type some extra meaningless words that will hopefully make me sound smarter and make my post longer so it looks better and/or more important".



i think what you MEANT to say was "i'm about to list some quarterbacks and in no way whatsoever prove anything except that i can spell their last names properly". so far, i have no understanding whatsoever of why you bothered to type any of this. it's all meaningless and largely irrelevant information. maybe you'll make a point in the next bit, the one in which you were going to "prove" something?



jp losman threw 7 more td passes than young and ran for one more, meaning he accounted for mroe tds and is demonstratably a more productive quarterback. further, losman was in his third season and thus, not eligible for the ROY award. i'm marginally annoyed that you'd even mention the ROY award as if it has any bearing on any part of this argument, but whatever. you're certainly entitled to say stupid things as long as they're true.



how, exactly, does this make him a better quarterback than losman? i don't recall seeing "better supporting cast" listed in the criteria. but props on forgetting that leinart had one of the worst o-lines in the league and that the cardinals will be hoping a rookie can turn around the production completely this season. i'm sure the offensive line is completely irrelevant.



again, having a better supporting cast is an utterly moronic argument for calling someone a better quarterback. peyton manning has had a FAR better supporting cast than tom brady. so i'm assuming that due to that fact, you would've argued in recent years that manning was WAY ahead of brady as a quarterback? well, i guess you might have, but any rational person would've laughed in your face.



which is why young threw only one less interception in one less game last season than losman? why leinart threw only two less in FOUR less games? gosh, those guys are so much better at protecting the ball!



gosh, those rookie running backs. they always have such a hard time getting things going and helping the offense. i mean, MJD, addai, maroney, bush... if only they could've helped shoulder the offensive load last year. another "great" point.



and you have yet to provide a SINGLE rational piece of evidence to support a single thing you've said. if this is indicative of the general quality of your arguments in the future, i'd suggest you stop hitting "submit" until you're capable of doing at least a tiny amount of research so that, in the future, i have to actually try to find things wrong with your posts. the ONLY thing you've made clear so far is that you dislike losman on some personal level.


okay i dont think i ever said that vince leinart and cutler were great quarterbacks that were gonna all gonna be top 10 qbs next year or something like that. Instead i think i specifically said that they werent.
Instead i mentioned these qbs because they were in the same type of scenario as he had losman in, except these quarterbacks havea better cast. when you were pointing out that all these qbs i was mentioning had in common was a better cast and not exactly production was exactly my point.

I'm glad you can just say im an idiot for not being able to put research together and you do the same thing. The way you say it Losman had 8 more total tds than young, when in reality he only ahd one. Now if your gonna say that demonstratably he was a better qb last yera, may i point out that young didnt even start 3 games!

as for leinart congradulations you know that arizonas line sucks. wow you must be really smart to know that. What i was saying is that Leinart deserves to be in the same conversation when discussing quarterbacks if your talking about Losman, purely because of the talent around him. Cutler is the same deal except he seems like he can be much better.

My point was to prove that Losman wasnt a top 10 quarterback, and before you bash me for trying to prove that, go out on a limb and say you support this fool for putting losman at nine then come at me.

Edit: I can see how when ranking qbs after 7 or 8 theres a bunch of poeple you cna throw in there that make sense but JP doesnt.

HoopsDemon12
07-10-2007, 04:33 PM
Valid point. Then again, all those guys didn't have Andrew Walter and Aaron Brooks throwing them the ball did they?

ture but i think it was more the o line thatn the quarterbacks anyway... joe horn did very well for himself when he had aaron brooks throwing him the ball.. Lee evans had a young QB... Fitzy and boldin had a young QB... Delhome played far from great last year.. and i mean andre johnson even went to a couple pro bowls behind the crappiest o line ever assembled possibly and with carr throwing... i mean no doubt he is talented... just the fact of the matter is he has declinded.. he isnt amazing anymore he may be great when he wants to be... but right now he is good until he shows me otherwise.. ill give him a chance to revive himself in NE though.. if he can.. next year he'll be back up

SuperMcGee
07-10-2007, 04:33 PM
as for leinart congradulations you know that arizonas line sucks. wow you must be really smart to know that. What i was saying is that Leinart deserves to be in the same conversation when discussing quarterbacks if your talking about Losman, purely because of the talent around him. Cutler is the same deal except he seems like he can be much better.


But that doesn't make any sense. These aren't fantasy football rankings.

Average OT LB
07-10-2007, 04:37 PM
Wow, are you honestly saying Willie Parker is better than Edgerrin James? Hilarious. James may not have put up great numbers last year, but he was behind one of the worst OLs in football. Put him behind the line Willie had, and he's going to be in the neighborhood of 2000 APY and 10-15 TDs.

WR:

1) Marvin Harrison
2) Torry Holt
3) Chad Johnson
4) Terrell Owens
5) Steve Smith
6) Reggie Wayne
7) Anquan Boldin
8) Roy Williams
9) Donald Driver
10) Andre Johnson

No i completely agree with you that edge can be amazing. But on the cardinals with that line it would be very hard so i cant see him being in the top 10. Willie had 15+ tds or something crazy, its very hard to ignore that kind of production and say edge is better. This is all without saying that i recognize edge is an extremely good talent on a bad team (oline) so i know what you're saying.

Average OT LB
07-10-2007, 04:41 PM
But that doesn't make any sense. These aren't fantasy football rankings.

no they arent fantasy football rankings but how do you judge a quarterback? a mixture of statistcis and win production. I was merely arguing the statistics part of the equation, stating that Leinart is just as good as losman, but because of the players around him, he should get the edge in predicting next years top 10.

That is because the main reason the guy siad he had losman in the top ten is because he will be very good next year. My argument was that if losman should be in the top 10 because hes gonna be good next year, then so should young leinart and cutler.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
07-10-2007, 04:50 PM
i personally wouldn't have losman in my top 10, but because of the lack of pure depth at the position, and the fact that this is an opinion thread, i can see how u could have him in there.

I'm still wondering how u can have Moss #1 after doing nothing special the past 3 or so years. over that span (which is quite a while) he's hardly done enough to make the top 10. he had one 1000 yard season, and 13 tds the one year, but i still don't see it

skeptical of someone who had Santana Moss at #5 also

skinzzfan25
07-10-2007, 05:03 PM
Steve Smith is better than Holt, Harrison and Johnson is debateable, I have Johnson above him, but not Harrison. Roy, TO, Moss, Boldin, and Colston aren't as good as Holt either. So ur opinion is wrong. Fitzgerald should be on the list. Colston needs to have another good year to put him in as a top ten WR.

This is for next season right?

Next year is Colston's year, he did amazing his first and now that he is the primary target it should only get better. I did mine based on how well I think their 2007 stats will be.

kalbears13
07-10-2007, 07:48 PM
I'm tired of not hearing any Browns yet...let's go to TE's now :P

art vandelay
07-10-2007, 09:53 PM
okay i dont think i ever said that vince leinart and cutler were great quarterbacks that were gonna all gonna be top 10 qbs next year or something like that. Instead i think i specifically said that they werent.
Instead i mentioned these qbs because they were in the same type of scenario as he had losman in, except these quarterbacks havea better cast. when you were pointing out that all these qbs i was mentioning had in common was a better cast and not exactly production was exactly my point.

I'm glad you can just say im an idiot for not being able to put research together and you do the same thing. The way you say it Losman had 8 more total tds than young, when in reality he only ahd one. Now if your gonna say that demonstratably he was a better qb last yera, may i point out that young didnt even start 3 games!

as for leinart congradulations you know that arizonas line sucks. wow you must be really smart to know that. What i was saying is that Leinart deserves to be in the same conversation when discussing quarterbacks if your talking about Losman, purely because of the talent around him. Cutler is the same deal except he seems like he can be much better.

My point was to prove that Losman wasnt a top 10 quarterback, and before you bash me for trying to prove that, go out on a limb and say you support this fool for putting losman at nine then come at me.

Edit: I can see how when ranking qbs after 7 or 8 theres a bunch of poeple you cna throw in there that make sense but JP doesnt.

Ok, first off let me introduce you to a little something called QB rating.

Losman finished 11th in passer rating (84.9%) which was ahead of Chad Pennington, Jake Delhomme, Vince Young, Trent Green, Steve McNair, Eli Manning, Matt Hasselback, Ben Roethlisberger, Michael Vick, Rex Grossman and Brett Favre, all guys that you listed were better than Losman.

Out of QB's that started all 16 games, Losman finished 7th in passer rating, trailing only Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, Marc Bulger, Phillip Rivers and Tom Brady.

Losman was 7th in fourth quarter passer rating (89.7), including a game winning 2 minute drive. He was also 9th in completion percentage (62.5), 10th in TDs and 10th in avg. gain per pass play.

So you call me a "fool" for calling Losman a top 10 QB and you say that it doesn't make sense to call him a top 10 QB, yet he finished 10th or better in many important statistical categories. Not to mention the fact that last year was his first year learning Steve Fairchild's offense after having to adjust from Tom Clements' offense the year before admist a QB controversy which severely hindered his confidence.

Let's also not forget about the Bills schedule. Based on opponent winning percentage, the Bills faced THE toughest (#1 out of 32) schedule in the league and still finished 7-9. They lost to San Diego and the Super Bowl Champ Indianapolis Colts by a combined 4 points! They lost 6 games by 5 points or less! If the Bills had one just 2 of these games, they would probably be looking at a playoff berth. This was with a brand new offensive and defensive scheme. Imagine what a year with these new schemes under their belts will make.

I guess I also shouldn't mention the fact that when John Clayton, the man who notoriously bashes the Bills, attended Bills OTA's this year, and here were some quotes from the article he wrote about his visit (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2900861&type=story).

What a difference a year makes. Bills minicamp opened Monday and Losman looked like a winner. His passes looked crisp and accurate. Receivers ran sharp routes and Losman hit them just as they separated from defenders. On Monday, he was particularly sharp in blitz drills. The ball rarely hit the ground. Receivers caught almost everything.

The biggest reason for the comfort zone is continuity. This is only the second time in eight years the Bills' offense returned the same starting quarterback (Losman) and offensive coordinator (Steve Fairchild).

"It's great having a year in the offense with the same coach, the same schemes and the same receivers," Losman said. "I am really confident in our guys.

Losman had a breakthrough season in 2006. He completed 62.5 percent of his passes for a team that finished at 7-9. At minicamp, you can see momentum building on offense. The tempo was good. The chemistry was exceptional.

For those trying to visualize the Bills' offense, you need to look to St. Louis. Fairchild brings the offense Mike Martz made famous with the Rams to Buffalo. Tempo and quickness are the keys to that system. Losman looked terrific Monday as he hit receivers in stride.

"He has kind of settled down and compacted his drop," Fairchild said. "Consequently, he is getting it out with more rhythm and more timing. And he is a lot more accurate."

The Bills' offense looks like a winner based on early observations.


Your opinion is yours and mine is mine. But don't say that you can't understand how anyone can have Losman in their top 10.

BamaFalcon59
07-10-2007, 10:07 PM
Ok, first off let me introduce you to a little something called QB rating.

Losman finished 11th in passer rating (84.9%) which was ahead of Chad Pennington, Jake Delhomme, Vince Young, Trent Green, Steve McNair, Eli Manning, Matt Hasselback, Ben Roethlisberger, Michael Vick, Rex Grossman and Brett Favre, all guys that you listed were better than Losman.

Out of QB's that started all 16 games, Losman finished 7th in passer rating, trailing only Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, Marc Bulger, Phillip Rivers and Tom Brady.

Losman was 7th in fourth quarter passer rating (89.7), including a game winning 2 minute drive. He was also 9th in completion percentage (62.5), 10th in TDs and 10th in avg. gain per pass play.

So you call me a "fool" for calling Losman a top 10 QB and you say that it doesn't make sense to call him a top 10 QB, yet he finished 10th or better in many important statistical categories. Not to mention the fact that last year was his first year learning Steve Fairchild's offense after having to adjust from Tom Clements' offense the year before admist a QB controversy which severely hindered his confidence.

Let's also not forget about the Bills schedule. Based on opponent winning percentage, the Bills faced THE toughest (#1 out of 32) schedule in the league and still finished 7-9. They lost to San Diego and the Super Bowl Champ Indianapolis Colts by a combined 4 points! They lost 6 games by 5 points or less! If the Bills had one just 2 of these games, they would probably be looking at a playoff berth. This was with a brand new offensive and defensive scheme. Imagine what a year with these new schemes under their belts will make.

I guess I also shouldn't mention the fact that when John Clayton, the man who notoriously bashes the Bills, attended Bills OTA's this year, and here were some quotes from the article he wrote about his visit (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2900861&type=story).
















Your opinion is yours and mine is mine. But don't say that you can't understand how anyone can have Losman in their top 10.

That is a kickass post.

Average OT LB
07-10-2007, 10:38 PM
Ok, first off let me introduce you to a little something called QB rating.

Losman finished 11th in passer rating (84.9%) which was ahead of Chad Pennington, Jake Delhomme, Vince Young, Trent Green, Steve McNair, Eli Manning, Matt Hasselback, Ben Roethlisberger, Michael Vick, Rex Grossman and Brett Favre, all guys that you listed were better than Losman.

Out of QB's that started all 16 games, Losman finished 7th in passer rating, trailing only Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, Marc Bulger, Phillip Rivers and Tom Brady.

Losman was 7th in fourth quarter passer rating (89.7), including a game winning 2 minute drive. He was also 9th in completion percentage (62.5), 10th in TDs and 10th in avg. gain per pass play.

So you call me a "fool" for calling Losman a top 10 QB and you say that it doesn't make sense to call him a top 10 QB, yet he finished 10th or better in many important statistical categories. Not to mention the fact that last year was his first year learning Steve Fairchild's offense after having to adjust from Tom Clements' offense the year before admist a QB controversy which severely hindered his confidence.

Let's also not forget about the Bills schedule. Based on opponent winning percentage, the Bills faced THE toughest (#1 out of 32) schedule in the league and still finished 7-9. They lost to San Diego and the Super Bowl Champ Indianapolis Colts by a combined 4 points! They lost 6 games by 5 points or less! If the Bills had one just 2 of these games, they would probably be looking at a playoff berth. This was with a brand new offensive and defensive scheme. Imagine what a year with these new schemes under their belts will make.

I guess I also shouldn't mention the fact that when John Clayton, the man who notoriously bashes the Bills, attended Bills OTA's this year, and here were some quotes from the article he wrote about his visit (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2900861&type=story)


Your opinion is yours and mine is mine. But don't say that you can't understand how anyone can have Losman in their top 10.

So let me get this straight. You've proved that JP losman finished strong and is poised to do well next year. Wow, good thing i said that.

So basically what i tried to prove, was that if your gonna just throw in players who finisehd up last year well, you got a few other options...

Honestly, there are probably stats out that that can prove Ryan Leaf was a good quarterback. Stats are very deceptive if used properly and i think you have done that. first you pointed out a few statistics that are slightly skewed.. let me right the ship.

Chad Pennington, Jake Delhomme, Vince Young, Trent Green, Steve McNair, Eli Manning, Matt Hasselback, Ben Roethlisberger, Michael Vick, Rex Grossman and Brett Favre

I bolded the players who you said he finisehd ahed in passer rating, who were hurt and ddint play the whole year. Boy those players are pretty good. I wonder if those players did play the whole year if they would have changed those stats around a little bit. Oh and there are a few other players that didnt play the whole year that could have changed up those stats too.
Cutler Leinart and Romo. BTW on my list of QBs i dont think i have cutler or leinart better than JP who i have 20th..

Let me add some stats of my own..
JP losman was 3rd in sacks, 3rd in fumbles and 2nd in fumbles lost in the NFL.
The buffalo bills have the 28th best passing offense in the league and 30th overall. They lost a few players like Mcgahee and nate clements who are good players which will make it a little tougher to improve upon their record- especially clements loss.

Mr. Stiller
07-10-2007, 11:11 PM
I can't wait till after this season...

I think Heath Miller and Santonio Holmes could crack the top 10 of their respective positions.

JK17
07-10-2007, 11:15 PM
I can't wait till after this season...

I think Heath Miller and Santonio Holmes could crack the top 10 of their respective positions.

Heath Miller....yeah....

But now I don't think there is anyway in hell Santonio Holmes cracks the top ten receivers no matter what he does....There are people who still won't give Larry Fitzgerald a top ten WR spot because they think he is "unproven", yet his second year was one of the best of anyone in recent years, and his other two weren't too shabby either. I know Santonio Holmes had a quiet, good rookie year....but we're talking 110 catches 1500 yards and 12 tds if you think one year will crack him into the top ten.

Average OT LB
07-10-2007, 11:30 PM
Heath Miller....yeah....

But now I don't think there is anyway in hell Santonio Holmes cracks the top ten receivers no matter what he does....There are people who still won't give Larry Fitzgerald a top ten WR spot because they think he is "unproven", yet his second year was one of the best of anyone in recent years, and his other two weren't too shabby either. I know Santonio Holmes had a quiet, good rookie year....but we're talking 110 catches 1500 yards and 12 tds if you think one year will crack him into the top ten.


i agree but those numbers are staggeringly high, not just top 10 numbers but top 1 numbers.

yo123
07-10-2007, 11:33 PM
i agree but those numbers are staggeringly high, not just top 10 numbers but top 1 numbers.



Yeah but those would be his first really good season, so it would take something like that to instantly put him in the top 10 WR's in the league.

JK17
07-10-2007, 11:37 PM
i agree but those numbers are staggeringly high, not just top 10 numbers but top 1 numbers.

Like yo123 just said, yeah its his first good season, so if you're gonna put him top ten, they better be damn good. Those numbers would be the best in the league...but it would take a top 3 performance to consider a second year guy a top ten receiver.

Average OT LB
07-10-2007, 11:45 PM
Like yo123 just said, yeah its his first good season, so if you're gonna put him top ten, they better be damn good. Those numbers would be the best in the league...but it would take a top 3 performance to consider a second year guy a top ten receiver.

those numbers wouldnt bring him up from the red, since he was a rookie what he does these next couple of years wil lprove whats hes made of. If he busts out for those numbers next year that would prove what kind of reciever he is, and pending what other wrs do i bet alot of poeple woulndt be afraid to rank him number one on their top 10s

yodabear
07-11-2007, 12:23 AM
This is for next season right?

Next year is Colston's year, he did amazing his first and now that he is the primary target it should only get better. I did mine based on how well I think their 2007 stats will be.

Oh, okay, IDK, I made mine overall, but yeah, I could see urs happening.

Mr. Stiller
07-11-2007, 01:05 AM
Heath Miller....yeah....

But now I don't think there is anyway in hell Santonio Holmes cracks the top ten receivers no matter what he does....There are people who still won't give Larry Fitzgerald a top ten WR spot because they think he is "unproven", yet his second year was one of the best of anyone in recent years, and his other two weren't too shabby either. I know Santonio Holmes had a quiet, good rookie year....but we're talking 110 catches 1500 yards and 12 tds if you think one year will crack him into the top ten.

And those People are idiots.. WR's IMO..

1) Steve Smith - just the danger factor
2) Torry Holt - Big play guy and always dangerous
3) Marvin Harrison - Great and the reliability factor.
4) Larry Fitzgerald - Not fast, but the best leaper in the nfl and sure handed.
5) Anquan Boldin - Not Fast, but reliable and the 2nd toughest WR in the NFL.
6) Chad Johnson - Leads the league in yards.
7) Roy Williams - Great Speed and very very dangerous.
8) Hines Ward - Quite possibly the most complete Receiver in the NFL.
9) TO - Fast, Big Play receiver.. Needs to work on the dropsies.
10) Lee Evans - Going to keep getting Better. Has speed and big play ability.


Santonio Holmes... in only starting 4 games, nearly put up 900 yards. I think with the new offense and the fact he actually has the #2 spot.. add with his speed/big play ability. He could end up with 1200-1300 yards and perhaps 5-8 TD's (I think we'll be aiming at one of our 4 TE's when it gets in the red zone.. Miller (6'5), Spaeth (6'7), Tuman (6'4), Dekker (6'5), Boyd (6'8).)

kmartin575
07-11-2007, 01:47 AM
Runningbacks-
1. Ladainian Tomlinson
2. Larry Johnson
3. Steven Jackson
4. Frank Gore
5. Clinton Portis
6. Shaun Alexander
7. Willie Parker
8. Rudi Johnson
9. Brian Westbrook
10. Joseph Addai

Wide receivers-
1. Chad Johnson
2. Steve Smith
3. Marvin Harrison
4. Torry Holt
5. Andre Johnson
6. Roy Williams
7. Larry Fitzgerald
8. Javon Walker
9. Anquan Boldin
10. Lee Evans

BrownsTown
07-11-2007, 01:35 PM
Should we start TEs now?

HoopsDemon12
07-11-2007, 01:48 PM
Should we start TEs now?

Yes and here are my rankings...

#1 Antionio Gates
#2 Tony Gonzalez
#3 Jeremy Shockey
#4 Ben Watson
#5 Kellen Winslow Junior
#6 Alge Crumpler
#7 L.J Smith
#8 Todd Heap
#9 Chris Cooley
#10 Heath Miller

BrownsTown
07-11-2007, 01:52 PM
Yes and here are my rankings...

#1 Antionio Gates
#2 Tony Gonzalez
#3 Jeremy Shockey
#4 Ben Watson
#5 Alge Crumpler
#6 L.J Smith
#7 Todd Heap
#8 Chris Cooley
#9 Heath Miller
#10Randy McMichael

Whoa, dude, where's Kellen Winslow?

kalbears13
07-11-2007, 01:53 PM
Yes and here are my rankings...

#1 Antionio Gates
#2 Tony Gonzalez
#3 Jeremy Shockey
#4 Ben Watson
#5 Alge Crumpler
#6 L.J Smith
#7 Todd Heap
#8 Chris Cooley
#9 Heath Miller
#10Randy McMichael

Woah....

I believe you forgot somebody \/ \/ \/ \/

Hines
07-11-2007, 01:55 PM
te:
gates
gonzalez
heap
shockey
winslow
crumpler
miller
cooley
watson
smith

HoopsDemon12
07-11-2007, 01:58 PM
Yes and here are my rankings...

#1 Antionio Gates
#2 Tony Gonzalez
#3 Jeremy Shockey
#4 Ben Watson
#5 Kellen Winslow Junior
#6 Alge Crumpler
#7 L.J Smith
#8 Todd Heap
#9 Chris Cooley
#10 Heath Miller

Whoa, dude, where's Kellen Winslow?

Woah....

I believe you forgot somebody \/ \/ \/ \/

im not even gonne lie man... i COMPLETLY forgot about him... haha i fixed er though.... i dont think i forget about anyone... dam i had a feelign i was missing something to ... its only the tightend i always trade for in madden haha

BrownsTown
07-11-2007, 01:59 PM
1. Antonio Gates
2. Tony Gonzalez
3. Alge Crumpler
4. Kellen Winslow
5. Jeremy Shockey
6. Todd Heap
7. Heath Miller
8. Chris Cooley
9. Jason Witten
10. Ben Watson

yo123
07-11-2007, 02:20 PM
1. Gates
2. Shockey
3. Gonzo
4. Winslow
5. Heap
6. Crumpler
7. Witten
8. Watson
9. Cooley
10. McMichael

Mr. Stiller
07-11-2007, 03:15 PM
1. Antonio Gates
2. Tony Gonzalez
3. Alge Crumpler
4. Kellen Winslow
5. Jeremy Shockey
6. Todd Heap
7. Heath Miller
8. Chris Cooley
9. Jason Witten
10. Ben Watson

I agree with this list.

yourfavestoner
07-11-2007, 03:19 PM
1. Antonio Gates
2. Kellen Winslow
3. Tony Gonzales
4. Jeremy Shockey
5. Todd Heap
6. Jason Witten
7. Alge Crumpler
8. LJ Smith
9. Chris Cooley
10. Ben Watson

Acreboy
07-11-2007, 04:03 PM
I'm about to throw a wrench in this puppy.

1.) Antonio Gates
2.) Tony Gonzales
3.) Alge Crumpler
4.) Dallas Clark
5.) Kellen Winslow Jr
6.) Jeremy Shockey
7.) Todd Heap
8.) Ben Watson
9.) LJ Smith
10.) Jason Witten

49erfanatic
07-11-2007, 04:17 PM
Vernon Davis will be top 5 on the list this time next year

SubNoize
07-11-2007, 04:48 PM
1.Gates
2.Gonzalez
3.Heap
4.Crumpler
5.Shockey
6.Watson
7.LJ Smith
8.Clark
9.Witten
10.Miller

SeanTaylorRIP
07-11-2007, 04:56 PM
1.Gates
2.Gonzalez
3.Heap
4.Crumpler
5.Shockey
6.Watson
7.LJ Smith
8.Clark
9.Witten
10.Miller

Agree with that Heap is so underrated, freakish good hands, will block for you, and always reliable and consistent. After Gates and Gonzalez there is no more solid and no TE I'd rather have than Heap. Big, great pass catcher, and a hard worker, high character guy.

Hines
07-11-2007, 04:58 PM
i think heap is the third best tight end in the league..id take him and i dont like the ravens...he scares me more then anyone on that offence

Jensen
07-11-2007, 05:03 PM
1. Antonio Gates
2. Tony Gonzalez
3. Todd Heap
4. Kellen Winslow
5. Alge Crumpler
6. Jeremy Shockey
7. Chris Cooley
8. Heath Miller
9. Ben Watson
10. Jason Witten

Average OT LB
07-11-2007, 05:17 PM
no, you specifically said that they were better than losman, then failed to prove that in any way whatsoever. unless you deny saying:



you clearly say that the quarterbacks you mention from that point on are better than losman and that he has, to paraphrase, no business being placed above them in any list.



not according to what you said in your original post. but i guess we're playing revisionist now? i mean, if you're going to claim to have said things you never actually said, can i claim you said things you never actually said? that'd be a fun game.



then next time SAY that was your point, instead of saying that your point was that those qb's are BETTER than losman. which is what you originally said your point is.

i mean, let's just quote your EXACT words a second time:



nowhere did you imply anything other than that the quarterbacks you mention next are better than losman. period.



why am i going to provide your argument for you? i'm telling you what you wrote was not only absurd, but poorly thought out. prove me wrong instead of whining about it.



no, i specifically said he had 7 more passing touchdowns (to match young's rushing touchdowns) and one rushing touchdown on top of that, meaning that losman accounted for more scoring personally than young did. let's keep up?



what the hell does the talent around them have to do with any part of this entire bloody thread? WHO CARES?



you failed to prove that losman isn't a top ten quarterback because your entire argument consisted of "well other guys have a supporting cast and losman doesn't!!!!!!!" oh, and (another point you failed to "prove"), or which is ridiculous.

you essentially hate JP Losman and, without citing ANYTHING to support your position, tried to argue that he sucks because you said he sucks. my refuting your points and calling your argument terrible has NOTHING to do with my personal quarterback rankings and everything to do with your inability to properly articulate your point.



*yawn* you still haven't shown why except that you don't like him and that we should all listen to you.

but hey, i wonder how you'll try to spin this last post? maybe you weren't really trying to say losman sucks, just that he occasionally fumbles or throws a pick, but you didn't mean that as a bad thing? or maybe you weren't actually talking about young or cutler or leinart? pick a position and argue it capably, or don't bother.

i guess its hard to argue with people whos Location is : actually, yes. i *am* better than you.

I guess you're the post police right? Maybe my post attacked you too directly and it offended you and you felt the need to retaliate. If thats the case then sure i can relate, hell i came back another time, but this last post is kind of disturbing. Now maybe articulation isn't one of my strong points, but leeway definitely isnt one of yours. I didnt feel that i was revising anything or twisting anything the second time around, just expalining more clearly. However, the disturbing part of this post is that its purely trying to difute everything i say.

In the end my argument was that it was absurd to pick losman out of the pile of qbs that were mushed together in a pack and throw him into the top 10 because there really isnt any reason why anyone should think losman can be better than the people he was ahead of. His numbers surely dont grant him a top ten position, but instead its the assumption that he will get better next year. Now I picked the three easist players (or so i thought) to prove that they were obviously gonna get alot better and most likely even better than losman. Now again ill say that i dont feel cutler or leinart would be top ten quarterbacks but to me it would be less outrageous if they were. There really isn't any kind of statistical proof that says any of them will get better, they could easily all pull an eli manning and suck. What i was clearly showing was that because the three quarterbacks i had pointed out had crutches (great players around them) they would have a much easier time.

And by the way the whole touchdowns thing is ridiculous i dont know what your arguing there. That conversation ends with Losman had 16 starts and 20total tds and young had 13 starts and 19 total tds. As for the whole first part of the post i think it moreso shows you trying your best to rip me apart then prove JP does infact belong in the top 10. As a matter of fact, i dont recall you ever taking a stance on if you think he is good or not instead your position the entire time has been to kill me. Now i know thats not what the 'bloody thread' is all about.

Lastly, may i point out that you have succeeded in saying that Cutler and Leinart are not yet top 10 quarterbacks, well guess what we agree. In my list where this all started i ahve young at 13, go all the way to twenty and do not list Cutler or Leinart. Why is that? Well let me explain it as clearly as possible so you can follow along. This year leinart did not play well and Cutler played only 5 games, how is it possible to give them a high ranking? Its not. This guy who put JP losman in his top ten said that JP will be better next year and that is why. So that is why i then said Cutler and Leinart and Young can be top ten qbs next year too and will most likely be better than JP so it doesnt make sense to put him in the top 10.

LarryJohnson27
07-11-2007, 05:22 PM
1. Antonio Gates
2. Tony Gonzalez
3. Todd Heap
4. Kellen Winslow
5. Jeremy Shockey
6. Alge Crumpler
7. Jason Witten
8. Chris Cooley
9. LJ Smith
10. Ben Watson

tylerb929
07-11-2007, 06:12 PM
Damn, Dallas Clark gets no love. He's so versatile and can catch the ball with the best of them, hell he played WR part of the year. If it weren't for him the Colts wouldn't have won the SB, particularly the Ravens game.

tylerb929
07-11-2007, 06:14 PM
1. Gates
2. Gonzalez
3. Heap
4. Shockey
5. Da. Clark
6. Crumpler
7. Winslow
8. Watson
9. Witten
10. Miller

BrownsTown
07-11-2007, 06:15 PM
1.Gates
2.Gonzalez
3.Heap
4.Crumpler
5.Shockey
6.Watson
7.LJ Smith
8.Clark
9.Witten
10.Miller

More lack of Winslow. What's up with that? I mean, he was only behind Gates and Gonzalez in yards last year.

BrownsTown
07-11-2007, 06:19 PM
Damn, Dallas Clark gets no love. He's so versatile and can catch the ball with the best of them, hell he played WR part of the year. If it weren't for him the Colts wouldn't have won the SB, particularly the Ravens game.

There's just no room. He's a good tight end, but he isn't better than a Heath Miller, or a Jason Witten. It's hazy after that top tier (Gates, Gonzalez, Crumpler, Winslow, Shockey, Heap) and at the bottom of the top 10 it's really just personal preference.

HoopsDemon12
07-11-2007, 06:19 PM
More lack of Winslow. What's up with that? I mean, he was only behind Gates and Gonzalez in yards last year.

i think we forget about him because he wasnt injured last year... its weird for us let us adjust to actaulyl seeing him off crutches haha... wow a lot less discussion on the Tight ends then wide receivers... where is that average offensive tackle.. we need some discussion in this place

SubNoize
07-11-2007, 06:59 PM
More lack of Winslow. What's up with that? I mean, he was only behind Gates and Gonzalez in yards last year.

lets put it this way, 3 years 18 games 3 TDs doesn't scream top 10. if he duplicates last years performance he'd get ranked, but it's a 1 time deal and it could of been a fluke until he proves otherwise.

neko4
07-11-2007, 07:03 PM
1-Gates
2-Gonzo
3-Heap
4-Winslow
5-Crumpler
6-Shockey
7-Witten
8-Clark
9-Cooley
10-Watson

JoeMontainya
07-11-2007, 07:37 PM
lets put it this way, 3 years 18 games 3 TDs doesn't scream top 10. if he duplicates last years performance he'd get ranked, but it's a 1 time deal and it could of been a fluke until he proves otherwise.

Winslow arguably (minus TD's) put up the best TE numbers in the entire NFL, with the very worste offense in the league and your gonna tell me it might be a fluke? You might be able to throw injuries out there as your reason, but regaurdless, you call it a possible fluke? Put this kid on the Chargers and his numbers will probably be better than Gates.

BrownsTown
07-11-2007, 07:50 PM
Winslow arguably (minus TD's) put up the best TE numbers in the entire NFL, with the very worste offense in the league and your gonna tell me it might be a fluke? You might be able to throw injuries out there as your reason, but regaurdless, you call it a possible fluke? Put this kid on the Chargers and his numbers will probably be better than Gates.

Nailed it. He's a decent enough blocker with freakish athletic ability and maybe the surest hands on the roster. I mean, just the number of catches shows how important he was to that offense.

SubNoize
07-12-2007, 02:49 PM
Winslow arguably (minus TD's) put up the best TE numbers in the entire NFL, with the very worste offense in the league and your gonna tell me it might be a fluke? You might be able to throw injuries out there as your reason, but regaurdless, you call it a possible fluke? Put this kid on the Chargers and his numbers will probably be better than Gates.

wasn't even close to the worst offense in the league... heard of the Raiders??? another reason for the amount of catches can be placed on the lack of a legit WR after Edwards and young bad QBs wh have the tendency to rely heavily on their TEs. So yes it could be a fluke, we're talking aout a guy who has played 18 games in 3 whole seasons and on 89 receptions only pulled in 3 TDs. Winslow is nowhere close to being in the league with Gates thus far...

Average OT LB
07-13-2007, 03:09 AM
wasn't even close to the worst offense in the league... heard of the Raiders??? another reason for the amount of catches can be placed on the lack of a legit WR after Edwards and young bad QBs wh have the tendency to rely heavily on their TEs. So yes it could be a fluke, we're talking aout a guy who has played 18 games in 3 whole seasons and on 89 receptions only pulled in 3 TDs. Winslow is nowhere close to being in the league with Gates thus far...

Thankyou for defending my boy gates, Winslow (silently puts on Kevlar vest) just doesnt match up with the real 85. Besides, with rivers at the helm gates numbers went down across the board. Alot of his production could have been because Drew Brees likes throwing to one guy. However, Winslow is good at two things, making acrobatic catches and acrobatic motorcylce crashes that end his season.

Caddy
07-13-2007, 03:18 AM
1. Gates
2. Gonzalez
3. Heap
4. Crumpler
5. Cooley
6. Winslow
7. Shockey
8. Witten
9. Watson
10. Miller

Average OT LB
07-13-2007, 04:10 AM
1. Gates
2. Gonzo
3. Kellen Winslow Jr - alotta catches low yards only means hes a big part of the offense
4. Alge Crumpler
5. Todd Heap
6. Shockey
7. Watson
8. Chris Cooley
9. Jason Witten - 1 td?
10. LJ Smith

ncstateviking
07-13-2007, 04:21 AM
wow im late on this. let me correct all you guys mistakes so far lol...

QB:

1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Donovan Mcnabb
5. Drew Brees
6. Philip Rivers
7. Marc Bulger
8. Matt Hasselback
9. Chad Pennington
10. Big Ben

Guy i wish would have got on...jon Kitna

Guy who will be on next year...Jay Cutler

RB

1. LT
2. SJ
3. LJ
4. Gore
5. Shaun Alexander
6. Rudi Johnson
7. Clinton Portis
8. EDGE
9. Brian Westbrook
10. Thomas Jones

Nearly Made it...Duece...if bush didnt eat his carries.

Notable Omission...Willie parker. produced, but would you want your team to have him?

Guy who will be on next year...Lawrence Marooney.

WR

1. CJ
2. Steve Smith
3. Torry Holt
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Marvin Harrison
6. Roy Williams
7. TO
8. Andre Johnson
9. Anquan Boldin
10. Javan Walker

Barely Missed...Driver. though he was top 10...but hes not better than anyone up there now

Notable Omissions...Wayne, Housh...sometimes people make the mistake of thinking REALLY REALLY good number twos are number ones. remember peerless price?

Will be on next year...Randy Moss, Colston

TE

1. Antonio Gates
2. Todd Heap
3. K2
4. Jeremy Shockey
5. Tony Gonzalez
6. Alge Crumpler
7. Chris Cooley
8. Jason Witten
9. Ben Watson
10. Heath Miller

Guy who will be on next year...Vernon Davis

Caddy
07-13-2007, 05:25 AM
Notable Omission...Willie parker. produced, but would you want your team to have him?



Uh Yeah. Parker is a player and proved last year he can carry the load without the Bus.

JK17
07-13-2007, 09:59 AM
Notable Omissions...Wayne, Housh...sometimes people make the mistake of thinking REALLY REALLY good number twos are number ones. remember peerless price?

Reggie Wayne and TJ Housh are not Peerless Price.

Bills2083
07-13-2007, 11:25 AM
RB:
1. LT
2. Larry Johnson
3. Shaun Alexander
4. Steven Jackson
5. Frank Gore
6. Brian Westbrook
7. Clinton Portis
8. Rudi Johnson
9. Willie Parker
10. Deuce McAllister

WR:
1. Chad Johnson
2. Steve Smith
3. Marvin Harrison
4. Roy Williams
5. Torry Holt
6. Larry Fitzgerald
7. Anquan Boldin
8. T.O.
9. Reggie Wayne
10. Lee Evans

Bills2083
07-13-2007, 11:34 AM
TE:
1. Antonio Gates
2. Jeremy Shockey
3. Todd Heap
4. Tony Gonzalez
5. Kellen Winslow Jr
6. Chris Cooley
7. Alge Crumpler
8. Ben Watson
9. Jason Witten
10. Heath Miller

Average OT LB
07-13-2007, 06:00 PM
I dont get the fixation with heath miller. There seems to be 11 top notch TEs to put on this list of 10, and i see alot of miller ahead of LJ smith.

LJ Smith 16 games 50 rec 611yards 5 tds 29 first downs 12.2 ypc 6.4 yac
Heath Miller 16 games 34 rec 393 yards 5 tds 21 first downs 11.6 ypc 5.6 yac

yeah they are pretty close but these numbers would suggest LJ gets the nudge does it not?

HoopsDemon12
07-13-2007, 06:06 PM
I dont get the fixation with heath miller. There seems to be 11 top notch TEs to put on this list of 10, and i see alot of miller ahead of LJ smith.

LJ Smith 16 games 50 rec 611yards 5 tds 29 first downs 12.2 ypc 6.4 yac
Heath Miller 16 games 34 rec 393 yards 5 tds 21 first downs 11.6 ypc 5.6 yac

yeah they are pretty close but these numbers would suggest LJ gets the nudge does it not?

I think miller is a better run blocker though... L.J is a big receiver IMO

BrownsTown
07-13-2007, 06:11 PM
I think miller is a better run blocker though... L.J is a big receiver IMO

Exactly, Miller is a good blocker, which is rare in top TEs these days.

Average OT LB
07-13-2007, 06:15 PM
Exactly, Miller is a good blocker, which is rare in top TEs these days.

I dont think its rare by any means. Sure not every TE is a great blocker, but how can you tell? Its not like gates is bad at it, i mean LT did lead the league in rushing. I'm sure theres a story for every player but i think its hard to judge how well a TE blocks based on the production of the RB. maybe westbrook doesnt get the ball alot on handoffs ands thats why the eagles dont have as potent a running game as say the steelers. Besides, doesnt pittsburg have like 100000 tes that they use anyway to help block and stuff?

22,895
07-23-2007, 08:44 AM
This thread has been dead for awhile but I still need to make a couple of picks

WR
1.Marvin Harrison
2.Torry Holt
3.Chad Johnson
4.Steve Smith
5.Terrell Owens
6.Roy Williams
7.Anquan Boldin
8.Reggie Wayne
9.Andre Johnson
10.Larry Fitzgerald

HoopsDemon12
07-23-2007, 12:01 PM
You know lets try to bring this alive again.... Since i dont know enought offensive lineman to make rankings for Tackles gaurds and centers..... ill Do Defensives Ends

#1 Julius Peppers
#2 Micheal Strahan
#3 Dwight Freeney
#4 Aaron Shobel
#5 Aaron Kampman
#6 Derrick Burgess
#7 Osi Umenyiora
#8 Terrel Suggs (Sorta the same reason as taylor... though i dont really know cause i dont watch much raven ball games)
#9 Jason Taylor (reason is so low because he plays a slash for the dolphins... if he was a pure DE he would be higher)
#10 Will Smith


Hopefully this will get the debates going again

Hines
07-23-2007, 12:05 PM
Exactly, Miller is a good blocker, which is rare in top TEs these days.

people tend to forget that he has really good hands...if he was faster people would have him rated higher..also you cant put the argument on stats because cowher didnt like to throw to the tight end..but with ariens i believe heath will have a HUGE year

Hines
07-23-2007, 12:06 PM
You know lets try to bring this alive again.... Since i dont know enought offensive lineman to make rankings for Tackles gaurds and centers..... ill Do Defensives Ends

#1 Julius Peppers
#2 Micheal Strahan
#3 Dwight Freeney
#4 Aaron Shobel
#5 Aaron Kampman
#6 Derrick Burgess
#7 Osi Umenyiora
#8 Terrel Suggs (Sorta the same reason as taylor... though i dont really know cause i dont watch much raven ball games)
#9 Jason Taylor (reason is so low because he plays a slash for the dolphins... if he was a pure DE he would be higher)
#10 Will Smith


Hopefully this will get the debates going again


in all honesty i think aaron smith needs to be on here..most of these guys are one dementional(sp) while smith is great at gettin to the qb and also great in run support..truely underrated and not known so im not suprised hes not on here, but he should be

HoopsDemon12
07-23-2007, 12:20 PM
in all honesty i think aaron smith needs to be on here..most of these guys are one dementional(sp) while smith is great at gettin to the qb and also great in run support..truely underrated and not known so im not suprised hes not on here, but he should be

he would be my 11:D

TACKLE
07-23-2007, 12:22 PM
TE
1. Antonio Gates
2. Gonzo
3. Jermey Shockey
4. K2
5. Alge Crumpler
6. Chris Cooley
7. Todd Heap
8. Heath Miller
9. Jason Witten
10. Vernon Davis

nobodyinparticular
07-23-2007, 12:37 PM
1. Ferotte 2. Grossman 3. Kitna 4. Jackson 5. Fitzpatrick
6. McCown 7. Frye 8. Culpepper 9. Cassel 10. Orlovski

Just Joking this is my real list
1. Peyton Manning
2. Palmer
3. Brady
4. Brees
5. McNabb
6. Bulger
7. Hasselbeck
8. Favre
9. Romo
10. Young

Wth! Where is Andrew Walter?

familyguy555
07-23-2007, 01:09 PM
umm dont know what position were doing so Ill just do O-Line

Tackles

Walter Jones
Orlando Pace
Levi Brown
Jonathan Ogden
Marcus Mcniel
Willie Anderson
Jason Peters
D'Brickashaw Ferguson
Matt Light
Bryant Mckinnie

Guards

Shawn Andrews
Alan Faneca
Steve Hutchinson
Logan Mankins
Shane Olivea
Eric Steinbach
Jahri Evans
Stephen Neal
Chris Naeole
Roberto Garza

Centers

Olin Kruetz
Nick Mangold
Jeff Saturday
Matt Birk
LeCharles Bentley
Nick Hardwick
Mike Flynn
Jeff Faine
Dominic Raiola
Shaun O'Hara

TACKLE
07-23-2007, 11:48 PM
OT
1. Walter Jones
2. Orlando Pace
3. Jamaal Brown
4. Jonathan Ogden
5. Jason Peters
6. Willie Anderson
7. Marcus McNeil
8. Chris Samuels
9. Jon Runyan
10. Jordan Gross

G
1. Steve Hutchinson
2. Shawn Andrews
3. Alan Faneca
4. Eric Steinbach
5. Brian Waters
6. Mike Wahle
7. Larry Allen
8. Justin Smiley
9. Logan Mankins
10. Kris Dielman

C
1. Olin Kruetz
2. Tom Nalen
3. Jeff Saturday
4. Matt Birk
5. Jamall Jackson
6. Nick Hartwick
7. Nick Mangold
8. Dan Koppen
9. Chris Spencer
10. Justin Hartwig

kalbears13
07-24-2007, 01:02 PM
umm dont know what position were doing so Ill just do O-Line

Tackles

Walter Jones
Orlando Pace
Levi Brown
Jonathan Ogden
Marcus Mcniel
Willie Anderson
Jason Peters
D'Brickashaw Ferguson
Matt Light
Bryant Mckinnie

Guards

Shawn Andrews
Alan Faneca
Steve Hutchinson
Logan Mankins
Shane Olivea
Eric Steinbach
Jahri Evans
Stephen Neal
Chris Naeole
Roberto Garza

Centers

Olin Kruetz
Nick Mangold
Jeff Saturday
Matt Birk
LeCharles Bentley
Nick Hardwick
Mike Flynn
Jeff Faine
Dominic Raiola
Shaun O'Hara

Levi Jones maybe?

kmartin575
07-24-2007, 01:26 PM
QB-
1. Manning
2. Brady
3. Palmer
4. Brees
5. Bulger
6. McNabb
7. Hasselbeck
8. Favre
9. Rivers
10. Romo

RB-
1. LT
2. LJ
3. Jackson
4. Alexander
5. Gore
6. Rudi Johnson
7. Wesbrook
8. Portis
9. Parker
10. Addai

WR-
1. Chad Johnson
2. Harrison
3. Holt
4. Steve Smith
5. Roy Williams
6. Owens
7. Fitzgerald
8. Boldin
9. Andre Johnson
10. Lee Evans

TE-
1. Gates
2. Gonzalez
3. Heap
4. Crumpler
5. Shockey
6. Winslow
7. Cooley
8. Witten
9. Watson
10. Miller

OT-
1. Jones
2. Brown
3. Pace
4. Jones
5. Ogden
6. McNeill
7. Samuels
8. Light
9. Peters
10. William Thomas

OG-
1. Hutchinson
2. Andrews
3. Waters
4. Faneca
5. Steinbach
6. Mankins
7. Dielman
8. Naeole
9. Evans
10. Hamilton