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neko4
07-18-2007, 01:44 PM
Which 2004 Draft Busts are most likely to make a comeback
1st Round:
1. San Diego - Eli Manning, QB Mississippi
*Traded to the New York Giants for Philip Rivers and the Giants third-round pick this year and their first and fifth round picks in the 2005 draft.

2. Oakland - Robert Gallery, OT Iowa
3. Arizona - Larry Fitgerald, WR Pittsburgh
4. NY Giants - Philip Rivers, QB North Carolina State
Traded, along with their third-round pick this year and their first and fifth round picks in the 2005 draft, to San Diego for Eli Manning.

5. Washington - Sean Taylor, S Miami (Fla)
6. Cleveland ( from Detroit) - Kellen Winslow Jr, TE Miami (Fla)
7. Detroit (from Cleveland) - Roy Williams, WR Texas
8. Atlanta - DeAngelo Hall, CB Virginia Tech
9. Jacksonville - Reggie Williams, WR Washington
10. Houston - Dunta Robinson, CB South Carolina
11. Pittsburgh - Ben Roethlisberger, QB Miami (Ohio)
12. NY Jets - Jonathan Vilma, LB Miami (Fla)
13. Buffalo - Lee Evans, WR Wisconsin
14. Chicago - Tommie Harris, DT Oklahoma
15. Tampa Bay - Michael Clayton, WR LSU
16. Philadelphia (from San Francisco) - Shawn Andrews, OT Arkansas
17. Denver (from Cincinnati) - D.J. Williams, OLB Miami (Fla)
18. New Orleans - Will Smith, DE Ohio State
19. Miami (from Minnesota) - Vernon Carey, G Miami (Fla)
20. Minnesota (from Miami) - Kenechi Udeze, DE USC
21. New England (from Bal) - Vince Wilfork, DT Miami (Fla)
22. Buffalo (from Dallas) - J.P. Losman, QB Tulane
23. Seattle - Marcus Tubbs, DT Texas
24. St. Louis (from Denver thru Cincinnati) - Steven Jackson, RB Oregon State
25. Green Bay - Ahmad Carroll, CB Arkansas
26. Cincinnati (from St. Louis) - Chris Perry, RB Michigan
27. Houston (from Tennessee) - Jason Babin, DE Western Michigan
28. Carolina (from Philadelphia thru San Francisco) - Chris Gamble, CB Ohio State
29. Atlanta (from Indianapolis) - Michael Jenkins, WR Ohio State
30. Detroit (from Kansas City) - Kevin Jones, RB Virginia Tech
31. San Francisco (from Carolina) - Rashaun Woods, WR Oklahoma State
32. New England - Ben Watson, TE Georgia


Im expecting Gallery to make a turn around but guys like Rashaun Woods and Ahmad Carroll seem beyond a comeback

TheChampIsHere
07-18-2007, 01:55 PM
Eli Manning, Robert Gallery, Michael Clayton, Kevin Jones

If you look at it though, it has been a really strong draft with very few true busts and a lot of guys who have turned out to be great players

PalmerToCJ
07-18-2007, 01:57 PM
Chris Perry has been very worthy of his draft position when he's healthy... Only problem is he's never healthy.

The chances are slim and none that he'll be a Bengal after this season.

The Dynasty
07-18-2007, 02:00 PM
Udeze hasnt lived up his 1st round status yet, but we will see.

Splat
07-18-2007, 02:04 PM
Udeze hasnt lived up his 1st round status yet, but we will see.

If he can't play with the DT's he has next to him I don't see him getting any better.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-18-2007, 02:07 PM
J.P. Losman.

bsaza2358
07-18-2007, 02:15 PM
Man, what a great freakin' draft. Might be the strongest first round crop we've seen in quite some time.

Busts:

Reggie Williams
Robert Gallery
Kenichi Udeze
Ahmad Carroll
Jason Babin
Rashaun Woods
Chris Perry

Disappointments (not up to snuff yet):

Eli Manning
JP Losman
Kevin Jones
Michael Clayton
Michael Jenkins

remix 6
07-18-2007, 02:17 PM
Man, what a great freakin' draft. Might be the strongest first round crop we've seen in quite some time.

Busts:

Reggie Williams
Robert Gallery
Kenichi Udeze
Ahmad Carroll
Jason Babin
Rashaun Woods
Chris Perry

Disappointments (not up to snuff yet):

Eli Manning
JP Losman
Kevin Jones
Michael Clayton
Michael Jenkins

jones has done well imo and losman did good last year so they are both on the right track.

as far as my fellow Patriots
Wilfork was certainly a steal while Watson just needs to be consistent. Hes a great weapon but he needs to consistently read defenses and consistently catch ti

PalmerToCJ
07-18-2007, 02:19 PM
J.P. Losman.

Not to me. He improved the second half last year and I think he needs one more year to see if he's a bust or not.

nbarnett56
07-18-2007, 02:30 PM
Its kind of funny because the Packers only have 2 players left from the 2004 draft class. 7th round pick center Scott Wells and 6th round pick DT Corey Williams.

bsaza2358
07-18-2007, 02:32 PM
jones has done well imo and losman did good last year so they are both on the right track.

I agree that they are on the right track, but they still have not performed consistently enough to warrant non-disappointment status.

rainbeaukid2
07-18-2007, 02:32 PM
rashaun woods is done, i don't believe that he is in the league anymore

Watchman
07-18-2007, 02:33 PM
The Rashaun Woods comeback should commence any moment. Brace yourself.

Brent
07-18-2007, 02:39 PM
9. Jacksonville - Reggie Williams, WR Washington
What a flop he turned out to be

kmartin575
07-18-2007, 03:30 PM
I see no reason to believe Robert Gallery will ever improve.

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
07-18-2007, 03:33 PM
Ahmad Carroll is a name that I love to throw around when up at school. Those Green Bay people hate him.

Hawk
07-18-2007, 03:39 PM
Ahmad Carroll is a name that I love to throw around when up at school. Those Green Bay people hate him.

indeed this is true

HoopsDemon12
07-18-2007, 03:52 PM
Holy crap that was a strong draft!!... i dont see gallery getting any better and ya if udezi doesnt get any better next year... how will he ... i mean he has a great line to play on right now and that line will get worse

Brodeur
07-18-2007, 03:57 PM
What a flop he turned out to be

Not really a huge flop honestly. He will never live up to his draft position, but he's a solid receiver for the Jags.

Shiver
07-18-2007, 03:59 PM
Not only was the '04 class very strong in round 1, it also had a lot of talent in later rounds.

PackerLegend
07-18-2007, 04:06 PM
Ahmad Carrol is definitly going to make a comeback. I see him going from about 40 penalties and 60 blown assignments to about 39 penalties and 59 blown assignments. Haha god i hate Carrol

Go_Eagles77
07-18-2007, 04:18 PM
I'm really glad we hit on Andrews because that was probably our only good pick of the whole draft.

OhioState
07-18-2007, 04:24 PM
i think that Lee Evans will have a pro bowl year to follow up the breakout season he just had

PoopSandwich
07-18-2007, 04:36 PM
With the injuries it was looking to many people like K2 would be a bust, I'm glad he dug himself out of the hole.

I would say picks #1 and #2 have been the most disappointing so far.

ks_perfection
07-18-2007, 04:39 PM
Very good draft overall, a ton of trading in the bottom half as well.

GB12
07-18-2007, 04:49 PM
Assistant: Mike we're on the clock Chris Gamble is available who should we take?

Mike Sherman: Well I remember that Ahmad Carroll was fast, hmm what else did I see?...

http://tarapfeifer.com/albums/stuff/mike_sherman_sleeping.jpeg
Mike: Oh right, ahhhhhhhhhh take that Carroll guy

LonghornsLegend
07-18-2007, 05:23 PM
reggie williams may not of lived up to being drafted top 10, but he's a very solid WR, and alot could be due to inconsistent qb play

smittyjs
07-18-2007, 05:54 PM
I would have to put Ben troupe (Titans first pick in the 04 draft) under the list for Disappointments at this point....

Contr0versy
07-18-2007, 06:08 PM
Ahmad Carroll
Eli Manning
Rashaun Woods
DeAngelo Hall (:D)

BlindSite
07-18-2007, 06:11 PM
There's far too much hate for Losman, he's still young, give him some time to develop. Last year he had 62% completion percentage and over 3000 yards. Add in 140 rushing yards and he's doing pretty well for someone who's only started something like 30 games.

Shiver
07-18-2007, 06:15 PM
Man, what a great freakin' draft. Might be the strongest first round crop we've seen in quite some time.

Busts:

Reggie Williams
Robert Gallery
Kenichi Udeze
Ahmad Carroll
Jason Babin
Rashaun Woods
Chris Perry

Disappointments (not up to snuff yet):

Eli Manning
JP Losman
Kevin Jones
Michael Clayton
Michael Jenkins

The only part I disagree with is categorizing JP Losman as a 'disappointment.' He did a fine job last year and should continue to develop. The Bills were lambasted for that trade to get him, so I think he even has exceeded expectations. Few people thought he'd ever amount to anything.

umphrey
07-18-2007, 06:26 PM
Haha I knew this thread was a breeding ground for Carroll jokes from Packer fans.

skinzzfan25
07-18-2007, 08:21 PM
There's far too much hate for Losman, he's still young, give him some time to develop. Last year he had 62% completion percentage and over 3000 yards. Add in 140 rushing yards and he's doing pretty well for someone who's only started something like 30 games.

With 0 talent around him.

I like Losman, hopefully he can get out or Buffalo puts some talent around him. It would be a shame to see him turn into another Patrick Ramsey lol.

BigJohn98
07-18-2007, 08:31 PM
You people will see this year, with Byron starting, how good Reggie Williams can be. He played great when Byron started. When Garrard started, it was a different story...

neko4
07-18-2007, 08:42 PM
reggie williams may not of lived up to being drafted top 10, but he's a very solid WR, and alot could be due to inconsistent qb play

My opinion too, I think if the QB play improves he'll be able to score 10-12 td's considering he's so tall

Ward
07-18-2007, 08:44 PM
Any Seattle fans want to weigh in on Marcus Tubbs' progress?

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
07-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Wasn't Ahmad Carroll cut from Jacksonville during the season for a drug arrest or something?

Shiver
07-18-2007, 08:45 PM
With 0 talent around him.

I like Losman, hopefully he can get out or Buffalo puts some talent around him. It would be a shame to see him turn into another Patrick Ramsey lol.

On the contrary, they've done a nice job giving him some help. Just this off-season they've added Derrick Dockery and Marshawn Lynch to go along with pro-bowl caliber players like Lee Evans and Jason Peters.

yourfavestoner
07-18-2007, 09:10 PM
reggie williams may not of lived up to being drafted top 10, but he's a very solid WR, and alot could be due to inconsistent qb play

Reggie Williams was playing very well at the beginning of last season. Then Leftwich got hurt, Captain Turnover came in, and the passing game fell apart.

ricky bobby
07-18-2007, 09:28 PM
Ahmad Carroll
Eli Manning
Rashaun Woods
DeAngelo Hall (:D)
Eli Manning is a bust? Wow. How stupid of the Giants to excercise an expensive option to keep him in New York a few extra years. Seeing how he's a bust and all.

umphrey
07-18-2007, 09:39 PM
I wouldn't call him a bust but he isn't out of the woods by any means

skinzzfan25
07-18-2007, 10:54 PM
Eli Manning is a bust? Wow. How stupid of the Giants to excercise an expensive option to keep him in New York a few extra years. Seeing how he's a bust and all.

Value wise, unless he magically turns into Unitas overnight, he's a bust.

3 pro bowlers > http://www.redskin-roadtrips.com/forum/files/dumbasseli_550.jpg

VY10
07-18-2007, 10:56 PM
hey jason babin wasn't a bust. he led the Texans in sacks last year! oh ya, we're terrible. Dunta is awesome though.

JK17
07-18-2007, 11:06 PM
Eli Manning is a bust? Wow. How stupid of the Giants to excercise an expensive option to keep him in New York a few extra years. Seeing how he's a bust and all.

A team exercising an extension has no real bearing over whether he's a bust, but as far as on the field production is concerned, up until now at least, unless he shows something more, he's a bust.

Shiver
07-18-2007, 11:19 PM
Oh I see where this thread is going.

*sigh*

JK17
07-18-2007, 11:24 PM
Oh I see where this thread is going.

*sigh*

Okay let me rephrase then, to avoid further controversy over a beaten-down subject haha.

Eli Manning has shown both potential to be great, and has indicated that he may as well be a bust.

It has to be determined later, not now as its too soon to judge him..


That should cover me everywhere.

Pit Bull #53
07-18-2007, 11:25 PM
I'd rather just pretend this draft never happened

Geo
07-18-2007, 11:30 PM
Reggie Williams was playing very well at the beginning of last season. Then Leftwich got hurt, Captain Turnover came in, and the passing game fell apart.
When Garrard was the QB, Williams' face was on the side of milk cartons. It was hilarious how, after Del Rio benched Garrard for Quinn Gray in the season finale at KC, Gray didn't waste time completing a big pass to Williams.

HawkeyeFan
07-18-2007, 11:31 PM
http://images.nfl.com/u/photos/pl_834450.jpg


He's turned out ight :)

Man_Of_Steel
07-18-2007, 11:33 PM
With 0 talent around him.

I like Losman, hopefully he can get out or Buffalo puts some talent around him. It would be a shame to see him turn into another Patrick Ramsey lol.

Buffalo has an explosive offense. Clayton even said a litlle while back that it reminded him of the Rams greatest show on turf. Now I wouldnt go that far at all but they are good.

RB- Lynch, WR- Evans/Parrish TE- Royal/Everett should get the #1 spot this season. The problem has always been the o-line but that looks to be rectified quite abit this year.

Buffalo's young D will be the teller of their success this year, damn they got some talented young safeties.

Geo
07-18-2007, 11:56 PM
Any Seattle fans want to weigh in on Marcus Tubbs' progress?
The Seahawks did well to draft a two-gap type tackle in Tubbs in 04 (Tim Ruskell came in 2005 incidentally), despite a current defense that heavily incorporates speed and one-gap discipline. It's not a coincidence that when Tubbs went down to season-ending injury in 2006, the Seahawks run defense never fully recovered.

I found this in a Seahawks article (http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2007/04/ruskell_rolls_the_dice.html), and it's pretty telling:

The Seahawks ranked 22nd in the league, giving up 126.8 rushing yards per game. In five games with the 6-foot-3, 320-pound Tubbs, they allowed just 82 yards per contest; in 13 games without Tubbs, including playoffs, opponents averaged 137.6 rushing yards. That's a difference of 55 yards per game, folks.

In another Seahawks article (http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/seahawks?title=run_defense_didn_t_stand_a_chance&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1):

The Hawks allowed 17 carries of 20-plus yards last season, tied with St. Louis for second-most in the league.

...

The Hawks also need to get Marcus Tubbs healthy. He is looking trim by 330-pound DT standards, and the team says he's on pace to return from knee surgery by training camp. Since drafting Tubbs in 2004, the Seahawks have allowed 42 fewer rushing yards per game and 0.99 fewer yards per carry when he plays. He did not play against the 49ers last season.

We'll see how Tubbs fares in his recovery from microfracture knee surgery. The Seahawks drafting Brandon Mebane in the 07 Draft was an excellent move imo, to provide depth.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
07-19-2007, 01:10 AM
hey, the great jonathan vilma was drafted in this draft, i like it

the U team from 2003 was my favorite of all time, and this draft spelled the end of it

SenorGato
07-19-2007, 02:07 AM
There's far too much hate for Losman, he's still young, give him some time to develop. Last year he had 62% completion percentage and over 3000 yards. Add in 140 rushing yards and he's doing pretty well for someone who's only started something like 30 games.

Losman is quite possibly the most underrated young QB in the game.

Dude gets no credit for having a very solid season last year.

Geo
07-19-2007, 02:17 AM
Which was his first full season as a starter.

In 2004, not only was he behind Drew Bledsoe on the depth chart, but he suffered a broken leg. In 2005, Mike Mularkey played Musical Chairs: The QB Edition all season long with Losman and Kelly Holcomb, stunting a young quarterback's development in what was a bad offense anyways.

Thankfully, Dick Jauron and Steve Fairchild took over as the head coach and the offensive coordinator, respectively, in 2006, and Bills GM Marv Levy has made a concerted effort to surround Losman with talent - most notably in the offensive line (Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker) and at runningback (Marshawn Lynch) this off-season.

Addict
07-19-2007, 02:39 AM
hmmm what did my team pick up?

Oh right... reciever, why was I wondering again?

Roy Williams HEY! that guy doesn't suck! Hey everyone, the Lions selected somebody who doesn't suck!!!!

oh crap they just HAD to pick KJ, probably in shock when they found out Roy Williams doesn't suck.

Sniper
07-19-2007, 03:33 AM
I'm a big fan of the Eagles pick in that draft. Andrews is a STUD. I know it's a bust thread but I had to give the Big Kid some props.

Caddy
07-19-2007, 03:46 AM
Michael Clayton as a disappointment is fair, but if he has another sub 500 yard season then he pretty much has to be considered a bust based on his draft position.

ricky bobby
07-19-2007, 08:54 AM
A team exercising an extension has no real bearing over whether he's a bust, but as far as on the field production is concerned, up until now at least, unless he shows something more, he's a bust.
Well we must have different standards for calling a player a bust. He sure as heck hasn't lived up to expectations, but calling him a bust at this point is a bit overboard. It's not like he's been doing horrible. He had 24 TDs last year with only 2 viable WR targets, and then only 1 when the other got injured. You can't put everything on Eli's shoulders. He's a bit inaccurate at times, but much of that can be accredited to Burress running poor routes. Eli started out hot until his most reliable WR went down, and other injuries set in. You can't have Tim Carter and David Tyree as your #2 and #3 recievers and expect Eli to do well. It's a team game, Eli is only human.

So would you consider David Carr a bust? That's not a fair assesment of a player considering his circumstances.

XxXdragonXxX
07-19-2007, 09:01 AM
Any Seattle fans want to weigh in on Marcus Tubbs' progress?


Tubbs is an excellent DT....

When he is healthy. The Seahawks defense completely fell apart last year when he went on IR, he is dthe most important player on the Hawks defense, followed by Tatupu.


Hopefully they won't be as dependant on him with Mebane here.

Watchman
07-19-2007, 03:18 PM
Which 2004 Draft Busts are most likely to make a comeback
1st Round:
1. San Diego - Eli Manning, QB Mississippi
*Traded to the New York Giants for Philip Rivers and the Giants third-round pick this year and their first and fifth round picks in the 2005 draft.

2. Oakland - Robert Gallery, OT Iowa
3. Arizona - Larry Fitgerald, WR Pittsburgh
4. NY Giants - Philip Rivers, QB North Carolina State
Traded, along with their third-round pick this year and their first and fifth round picks in the 2005 draft, to San Diego for Eli Manning.

5. Washington - Sean Taylor, S Miami (Fla)
6. Cleveland ( from Detroit) - Kellen Winslow Jr, TE Miami (Fla)
7. Detroit (from Cleveland) - Roy Williams, WR Texas
8. Atlanta - DeAngelo Hall, CB Virginia Tech
9. Jacksonville - Reggie Williams, WR Washington
10. Houston - Dunta Robinson, CB South Carolina
11. Pittsburgh - Ben Roethlisberger, QB Miami (Ohio)
12. NY Jets - Jonathan Vilma, LB Miami (Fla)
13. Buffalo - Lee Evans, WR Wisconsin
14. Chicago - Tommie Harris, DT Oklahoma
15. Tampa Bay - Michael Clayton, WR LSU
16. Philadelphia (from San Francisco) - Shawn Andrews, OT Arkansas
17. Denver (from Cincinnati) - D.J. Williams, OLB Miami (Fla)
18. New Orleans - Will Smith, DE Ohio State
19. Miami (from Minnesota) - Vernon Carey, G Miami (Fla)
20. Minnesota (from Miami) - Kenechi Udeze, DE USC
21. New England (from Bal) - Vince Wilfork, DT Miami (Fla)
22. Buffalo (from Dallas) - J.P. Losman, QB Tulane
23. Seattle - Marcus Tubbs, DT Texas
24. St. Louis (from Denver thru Cincinnati) - Steven Jackson, RB Oregon State
25. Green Bay - Ahmad Carroll, CB Arkansas
26. Cincinnati (from St. Louis) - Chris Perry, RB Michigan
27. Houston (from Tennessee) - Jason Babin, DE Western Michigan
28. Carolina (from Philadelphia thru San Francisco) - Chris Gamble, CB Ohio State
29. Atlanta (from Indianapolis) - Michael Jenkins, WR Ohio State
30. Detroit (from Kansas City) - Kevin Jones, RB Virginia Tech
31. San Francisco (from Carolina) - Rashaun Woods, WR Oklahoma State
32. New England - Ben Watson, TE Georgia


Im expecting Gallery to make a turn around but guys like Rashaun Woods and Ahmad Carroll seem beyond a comeback

I recall this being a painful draft. Tommie Harris went right before the Bucs picked, after that I thought Steven Jackson was a lock. Imagine my surprise.

KCJ58
07-19-2007, 03:23 PM
Steven Jackson St. Louis Rams :D

SuperMcGee
07-19-2007, 03:40 PM
Buffalo has an explosive offense. Clayton even said a litlle while back that it reminded him of the Rams greatest show on turf. Now I wouldnt go that far at all but they are good.

RB- Lynch, WR- Evans/Parrish TE- Royal/Everett should get the #1 spot this season. The problem has always been the o-line but that looks to be rectified quite abit this year.

Buffalo's young D will be the teller of their success this year, damn they got some talented young safeties.

The receiving options worry me just a bit. Royal isn't much of a recevier, Everett has one career reception, and it's hard to know what to expect from Roscoe and how his role will be increased this year. Reed and Price... eh. We're moving in the right direction though and Fairchild has really impressed me. I expect an improved running game and overall offense, led my none other than Mr. John Paul Losman

Mr. Stiller
07-19-2007, 04:04 PM
Well we must have different standards for calling a player a bust. He sure as heck hasn't lived up to expectations, but calling him a bust at this point is a bit overboard. It's not like he's been doing horrible. He had 24 TDs last year with only 2 viable WR targets, and then only 1 when the other got injured. You can't put everything on Eli's shoulders. He's a bit inaccurate at times, but much of that can be accredited to Burress running poor routes. Eli started out hot until his most reliable WR went down, and other injuries set in. You can't have Tim Carter and David Tyree as your #2 and #3 recievers and expect Eli to do well. It's a team game, Eli is only human.

So would you consider David Carr a bust? That's not a fair assesment of a player considering his circumstances.

... Ben Managed wiht Nate Washington, Holmes, Sean Morey and Walter Young...

Mr. Stiller
07-19-2007, 04:06 PM
Well we must have different standards for calling a player a bust. He sure as heck hasn't lived up to expectations, but calling him a bust at this point is a bit overboard. It's not like he's been doing horrible. He had 24 TDs last year with only 2 viable WR targets, and then only 1 when the other got injured. You can't put everything on Eli's shoulders. He's a bit inaccurate at times, but much of that can be accredited to Burress running poor routes. Eli started out hot until his most reliable WR went down, and other injuries set in. You can't have Tim Carter and David Tyree as your #2 and #3 recievers and expect Eli to do well. It's a team game, Eli is only human.

So would you consider David Carr a bust? That's not a fair assesment of a player considering his circumstances.

David Carr had no Offensive Line, on an expansion team. He didn't have a Tiki Barber, Plaxico Burress or anything even resembling a blocking OL. Hell Luke Pettigout and Diehl would have looked like All-Pro's with what Carr had to work with.

ricky bobby
07-19-2007, 04:25 PM
... Ben Managed wiht Nate Washington, Holmes, Sean Morey and Walter Young...
Don't give me the Big Ben line. Ben had a superb defense a superb offensive line and a superb running back. Great, he completed 14 of the 20 passes he threw every game.

David Carr had no Offensive Line, on an expansion team. He didn't have a Tiki Barber, Plaxico Burress or anything even resembling a blocking OL. Hell Luke Pettigout and Diehl would have looked like All-Pro's with what Carr had to work with.
Tiki Barber was a great asset to Eli, no question about it. Plaxico Burress can make the big play, but he's not exactly a reliable reciever. Some of those passes on which Eli looked way off, were Plax running a bad route. Eli had great chemistry with Toomer, who was very reliable and a good route runner. It's not just a coincidence that Eli started playing poorly when his recievers were Plax, Tim Carter and David Tyree. Luke Petitgout was infamous for killing drives with his penalties; He was a decent blocker I must say.

My point in referancing Carr was that it's a team sport. Is it just a coincidence that Rivers and Ben had great seasons with teams that made it deep into the playoffs? It's a team game and you have to look at the circumstances. We had starters injuried on defense, which forced Eli to play for behind a lot. He lost his #2 WR on a team that had no WR depth and he lost his starting LT. Can you honestly put all the blame on his shoulders? Stick Eli or Carr on the Chargers and they'll do just as good as Rivers. Stick Rivers on a team riddled with injuries, and he'll do no better than Eli.

Sniper
07-19-2007, 05:41 PM
He lost his #2 WR on a team that had no WR depth and he lost his starting LT. Can you honestly put all the blame on his shoulders?

Donovan McNabb has done superbly for years with such stalwarts as Freddie Mitchell, James Thrash, Todd Pinkston and Greg Lewis as some of his wideouts. You can still make it happen despite crappy WR. Maybe if Eli would remember he's got a sick TE to work with and dump it off to him every now and then that would be a good starting point. Bottom line is, other guys have done a lot more with less than Eli has. Tom Brady anyone? I'm pretty sure I'd take Plaxico and whoever your #2 was last year over Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell, wouldn't you?

remix 6
07-19-2007, 05:45 PM
... Ben Managed wiht Nate Washington, Holmes, Sean Morey and Walter Young...

Brady managed with Caldwell, Troy brown and half of Gaffney and half of Gabriel.. with no pro bowl RBs

what are u trying to say?

It doesnt matter who your WRs are..if you a really good QB..you'll get it done.

raiderfan_89
07-19-2007, 05:47 PM
So far Ahmad Carroll, Rashaun Woods and Robert Gallery. Althought Gallery can still become a pretty good OT.

ricky bobby
07-19-2007, 06:18 PM
Donovan McNabb has done superbly for years with such stalwarts as Freddie Mitchell, James Thrash, Todd Pinkston and Greg Lewis as some of his wideouts. You can still make it happen despite crappy WR. Maybe if Eli would remember he's got a sick TE to work with and dump it off to him every now and then that would be a good starting point. Bottom line is, other guys have done a lot more with less than Eli has. Tom Brady anyone? I'm pretty sure I'd take Plaxico and whoever your #2 was last year over Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell, wouldn't you?
Those are two different offensive systems. The Eagles play in a system in which you put 4 recievers onto the field, make them run, and hopefully McNabb finds an open one. The Giants offensive coordinator was a nincompoop and was replaced before the season even ended for a reason. He didn't utilize Shockey properly, he didn't utilize Eli or the WRs properly. He managed to use Tiki well, but that's all. So if you throw in the Patriot's offensive playcaller along with those two guys, i'd make the trade. I'm personally not that high on Plaxico Burress and Tim Carter is already gone.

bills51tuff
07-19-2007, 09:08 PM
The receiving options worry me just a bit. Royal isn't much of a recevier, Everett has one career reception, and it's hard to know what to expect from Roscoe and how his role will be increased this year. Reed and Price... eh. We're moving in the right direction though and Fairchild has really impressed me. I expect an improved running game and overall offense, led my none other than Mr. John Paul Losman

This is Everett's breakout year.

Him and Dwayne Wright are two underrated guys who will make a big impact.

Dam8610
07-19-2007, 10:43 PM
It doesnt matter who your WRs are..if you have a system tailored to your strengths..you'll get it done.

Fixed.

....

Mr. Stiller
07-19-2007, 10:45 PM
Brady managed with Caldwell, Troy brown and half of Gaffney and half of Gabriel.. with no pro bowl RBs

what are u trying to say?

It doesnt matter who your WRs are..if you a really good QB..you'll get it done.

You said Exactly what I was trying to say.

volman88
07-19-2007, 11:26 PM
Rashaun woods all the way

neko4
07-19-2007, 11:29 PM
Rashaun woods all the way

I agree, i used him in Madden the other day and i could tell what is gonna happen this year

Vikes99ej
07-19-2007, 11:43 PM
We need to get rid of Kenechi Udeze. He is not a Cover-2 defensive end.

LonghornsLegend
07-20-2007, 01:13 AM
Those are two different offensive systems. The Eagles play in a system in which you put 4 recievers onto the field, make them run, and hopefully McNabb finds an open one. The Giants offensive coordinator was a nincompoop and was replaced before the season even ended for a reason. He didn't utilize Shockey properly, he didn't utilize Eli or the WRs properly. He managed to use Tiki well, but that's all. So if you throw in the Patriot's offensive playcaller along with those two guys, i'd make the trade. I'm personally not that high on Plaxico Burress and Tim Carter is already gone.

so in other words, everyone else takes the blame except Eli?


what happens if they dont make the playoffs this year? You cant keep throwing injuries out there like every team doesnt get the same marquee injuries year in and out, you deal with it, Im sure Tiki Barber, Shockey, and Burress were plenty to make amends with...

ricky bobby
07-20-2007, 09:20 AM
so in other words, everyone else takes the blame except Eli?


what happens if they dont make the playoffs this year? You cant keep throwing injuries out there like every team doesnt get the same marquee injuries year in and out, you deal with it, Im sure Tiki Barber, Shockey, and Burress were plenty to make amends with...
You can't throw McNabb and Brady out and compare them to Eli. Both of those guys are Veteran QBs with absolute masterminds for coaches.

You don't follow the Giants, you didn't see what kind of crap we had starting on defense, and you didn't see the idiot who was calling the plays.

tjpackers
07-20-2007, 03:05 PM
carroll and his penalties

StaticGator
07-20-2007, 03:22 PM
We need to get rid of Kenechi Udeze. He is not a Cover-2 defensive end.

He's not an NFL defensive end.

Shiver
07-20-2007, 03:23 PM
He's not an NFL defensive end.

A case where a player who doesn't really fit in an NFL position. Udeze was one of those dreaded 'tweeners.'

Vikes99ej
07-20-2007, 03:31 PM
Sorry, we don't run a 3-4. I don't see the need for a DE-DT tweener. Although I'm sure Udeze would suck even if he was on the Chargers.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-20-2007, 03:40 PM
so in other words, everyone else takes the blame except Eli?


what happens if they dont make the playoffs this year? You cant keep throwing injuries out there like every team doesnt get the same marquee injuries year in and out, you deal with it, Im sure Tiki Barber, Shockey, and Burress were plenty to make amends with...

I think it's a culmination of things. Idiot OC, ELI, losing your LT, and then losing your security blanket in Amani Toomer. And still despite all that managed to put up nearly the same stats. He should be fine, we fired our OC, put a guy who has actually had experience as an OC there, got a new qb coach, and been working things out. But he does need to play better, but I def. wouldnt call him a bust or anything near one.

keylime_5
07-20-2007, 05:18 PM
Gallery will probably bounce back and become a solid player, but never an outstanding one like he was billed to be. Eli will be fine, he's not a bust yet, he's a solid QB but not a start yet like he's suppposed to be. He's not really done any worse than Rivers (meltdown at end of 06 season) or Roethlisberger (horrible 06), but obviously hasn't won games like those two.

As for Losman and Jenkins, neither is a bust and to tell the truth both of those guys have shown a lot of promise and could be really good if given better situations. I think Losman will eventually become a good player. Jenkins has a crappy QB who throws too hard on short patterns and is extremely inaccurate on midrange throws, so give him a break. Mike Clayton is a mystery...great rookie year and 2 really sorry years afterwards. Reggie Williams though will never be better than a #2 WR in the NFL.

keylime_5
07-20-2007, 05:19 PM
He's not an NFL defensive end.

Who would've thought that Udeze was the 2nd best DE they drafted that year? I think they could be fine this year with Scott and James starting and Udeze playing sparingly.

Vikes99ej
07-20-2007, 05:36 PM
Who would've thought that Udeze was the 2nd best DE they drafted that year? I think they could be fine this year with Scott and James starting and Udeze playing sparingly.

I don't want Scott starting. He is not a Cover 2 end, either. Too slow. I'd rather have James and Ray Edwards starting.

DaBears9654
07-20-2007, 11:40 PM
If you broaden the definition of bust beyond simply "a crappy player," I would say Tank Johnson for the Bears. His legal troubles have landed him a suspension for 8 games (6 with good behavior) and now, they've landed him in the unemployment line.

DaBears9654
07-20-2007, 11:42 PM
I'm sure Udeze would suck even if he was on the Chargers.
That there's sig material. Classic.

Vikes99ej
07-20-2007, 11:48 PM
That there's sig material. Classic.

It's the truth. I feel honored.

Geo
07-20-2007, 11:57 PM
Udeze works as a base defensive end imo, it's not as though the team can't substitute a quicker/better pass-rusher for him in passing situations and keep a strong rotation to last the whole game.

I also wonder if he won't be slightly improved now that he's further removed from his late 2005 microfracture knee surgery.

Vikes99ej
07-20-2007, 11:59 PM
He just doesn't fit in our system, though. Udeze would get to the QB last year, but it would be 2 second after the QB released the ball.

Geo
07-21-2007, 12:13 AM
http://www.startribune.com/510/story/1218672.html

Staying put

Frazier said one of his goals this season will be keeping Kenechi Udeze at left end. Udeze shifted to the right side after Erasmus James suffered a season-ending knee injury in last year's second game. Udeze didn't have a sack all season.

"That's where he feels most comfortable at," Frazier said of Udeze. "We need to let him be where he feels confident and give him the best chance to be successful. We're committed to doing that, and hopefully we'll get the results out of it that we're looking for."

James is expected back for training camp, but it's uncertain how much of a workload he will be able to handle early in the season.
I hadn't realized the Vikings moved Udeze to RDE, after James tore his ACL - no wonder the move was unsuccessful. Good thing Frazier knows his defense and plans to keep Udeze at LDE.

Vikes99ej
07-21-2007, 12:43 AM
http://www.startribune.com/510/story/1218672.html


I hadn't realized the Vikings moved Udeze to RDE, after James tore his ACL - no wonder the move was unsuccessful. Good thing Frazier knows his defense and plans to keep Udeze at LDE.

I don't know. I'm still skeptical. Moving him to LE isn't going to give him any more quickness or speed. Scott didn't have any luck at that spot.

Average OT LB
07-21-2007, 06:54 AM
so in other words, everyone else takes the blame except Eli?


what happens if they dont make the playoffs this year? You cant keep throwing injuries out there like every team doesnt get the same marquee injuries year in and out, you deal with it, Im sure Tiki Barber, Shockey, and Burress were plenty to make amends with...


I agree, but i understand the opposing argument: Eli didnt have a WR on the field that he could trust they knew where to be. In a way, its loosely like what Vick has -- had, in Atlanta. It's not like crumpler is some kind of superior athlete that hes the only one capable of catching a pass there, but more that he was the only one vick trusted. Everyone knows that in the NFL trust is key so when toomer goes down thats big. But heres why i disagree. You know when you're going through teams in madden, and you don't pick certain teams cause they dont have a good offense? Well the giants were never one of those teams. Great running back, solid qb, great tight end, and play making wide reciever. There just simply is no excuse for eli manning. I find it ridiculous that Plaxico Burress's route running and things of that nature were such a problem that it made Eli look like a bust. What was wrong with Shockey? was he partying too hard? the way i see it, Eli just doesnt trust himself to make the throws in pressure situations. In the NFL hte decision to throw the football is the must rushed and complicated thing in the sport. Eli has all the tools, but is standing too deep in the shadow of a certain relative of his, to have any confidence. I'm sure playing in New York with the papers in his face every morning doesnt help either..

I do not feel bad for him. He could have had San Diego, he chose misery.

CC.SD
07-21-2007, 11:17 AM
Gallery will probably bounce back and become a solid player, but never an outstanding one like he was billed to be. Eli will be fine, he's not a bust yet, he's a solid QB but not a start yet like he's suppposed to be. He's not really done any worse than Rivers (meltdown at end of 06 season) or Roethlisberger (horrible 06), but obviously hasn't won games like those two.


OK, this Rivers meltdown stuff is getting out of hand. I'm going to do an Eli-homer impression for a minute;

He had 2 bad games, and one iffy game, all season. Coincidentally, they came when McCardell lost all his playing time, Floyd went on IR, and Parker was battling injuries. We had to sign Az Hakim off the street! Raiders and Seahawks defense are not bad at all. The Chiefs played a great game. It's the NFL, you can't be spectacular every week. As is, he posted a 90 plus rating in his first season as a starter.

We still won all those games, including a killer game winner against Seattle.

The "meltdown" nonsense is being blown completely out of proportion.

Mr. Stiller
07-21-2007, 11:52 AM
Gallery will probably bounce back and become a solid player, but never an outstanding one like he was billed to be. Eli will be fine, he's not a bust yet, he's a solid QB but not a start yet like he's suppposed to be. He's not really done any worse than Rivers (meltdown at end of 06 season) or Roethlisberger (horrible 06), but obviously hasn't won games like those two.


Ben had a Horrible 06 but he had an amazing 04/05.. Eli has yet to live up anywhere NEAR Ben or Rivers. They both had solid seasons. Eli has yet to have one.

I'm not going to sit here and bash Eli the whole time. But Ben and Rivers are head/shoulders above him right now. You have to compare his best stats to Ben and Rivers' worst.

Ben's 06 season, and Rivers December QB Rating drop. Eli hasn't been consistent or played near the level that Either has.

And to do my rendition of a Eli-Homer impression:

Ben lost Hartings, Simmons, Starks the entire C-RT of his line this past season. Add that to the only veterans at WR in Ward/Wilson were out. We had Sean Morey and Walter Young as our #3/#4. 3 UDFA's in our starting 4 wideouts. His OL was playing so bad that he couldn't ever use his TE because he had to block. Add to the fact he nearly died in the pre-season and still played. As well as the killer hit from Atlanta (Ironically the one time it's wasn't roughing the passer)

http://www.post-gazette.com/images4/20061024pd_bigbenhit1024_450.jpg

And not to mention, his last 8 games he went 6-2.. 2167yds passing(8 games) 85.1 QB Rating..

Eli was sacked 25 times. Yea, his OL was bad.

Ben was sacked 46 times.. Including a 9-sack game. Yea, you Giants fans have it so, rough.


Question is. How come Ben and Rivers get all the blame for their mishaps, yet Eli gets to point the finger.. Come on now, he's not Peyton.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 11:56 AM
OK, this Rivers meltdown stuff is getting out of hand. I'm going to do an Eli-homer impression for a minute;

He had 2 bad games, and one iffy game, all season. Coincidentally, they came when McCardell lost all his playing time, Floyd went on IR, and Parker was battling injuries. We had to sign Az Hakim off the street! Raiders and Seahawks defense are not bad at all. The Chiefs played a great game. It's the NFL, you can't be spectacular every week. As is, he posted a 90 plus rating in his first season as a starter.

We still won all those games, including a killer game winner against Seattle.

The "meltdown" nonsense is being blown completely out of proportion.

You get to use the injury card?

Eli was missing his LT, most reliable WR for the second half of the season and his #3 WR for alomst the entire year.

ironic

Mr. Stiller
07-21-2007, 12:03 PM
You get to use the injury card?

Eli was missing his LT, most reliable WR for the second half of the season and his #3 WR for alomst the entire year.

ironic

He was doing an impression of Ricky Bobby. Everytime Eli has a bad game, it's due to some injury, or the fact he lost people around him...

So did every QB. But If we throw out the injury card for our QB's this is what we get.

CC.SD
07-21-2007, 01:01 PM
You get to use the injury card?

Eli was missing his LT, most reliable WR for the second half of the season and his #3 WR for alomst the entire year.

ironic

You only think it's ironic because you decided not to read the part where I distinctly announced I was making fun of how Giants fans defend Eli. By playing the injury card. Like you just did.


Nothing is ever Eli's fault, apparently, and yet Rivers had a meltdown. Come on now.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 03:55 PM
You only think it's ironic because you decided not to read the part where I distinctly announced I was making fun of how Giants fans defend Eli. By playing the injury card. Like you just did.


Nothing is ever Eli's fault, apparently, and yet Rivers had a meltdown. Come on now.

If you don't think Rivers had a much easier situation to deal with last year, you're a fool.

Brilliant!
07-21-2007, 04:14 PM
If you don't think Rivers had a much easier situation to deal with last year, you're a fool.
You're a fool. Don't you know that Rivers hoisted the team on his shoulders and carried them to the AFC championship game?

That was sarcasm btw.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-21-2007, 04:27 PM
You only think it's ironic because you decided not to read the part where I distinctly announced I was making fun of how Giants fans defend Eli. By playing the injury card. Like you just did.


Nothing is ever Eli's fault, apparently, and yet Rivers had a meltdown. Come on now.


You must be reading posts from people on the end of the spectrum that will defend him now matter what. For instance, on the Falcons board, there are fans who love him no matter what happens.

The fact remains things are his fault, but he has done good things, and had two above avg seasons for us. He has had bad games, and has had good games, he just needs to put it together, and hopefully our offensive guys can stay healthy.

But i think giants fans have to defend Eli, because our media blows things out of proportion, and the fact that we have to listen to the national media couple days later repeat the same stuff. While Eli has to play better, he hasnt done as bad as the media would like you to believe.

CC.SD
07-21-2007, 06:47 PM
If you don't think Rivers had a much easier situation to deal with last year, you're a fool.

Wow you're right. I guess that means Eli is a moron who should have played for the team that drafted him instead of thinking he was too good for the system.

I can't believe there are still Eli defenders. Thank god Tiki took the whole offense with him and now the runt can be exposed.

Sniper
07-21-2007, 06:57 PM
Wow you're right. I guess that means Eli is a moron who should have played for the team that drafted him instead of thinking he was too good for the system.

I can't believe there are still Eli defenders. Thank god Tiki took the whole offense with him and now the runt can be exposed.

Pffffffffffffffffft yeah right. If you listened to all the Giants homers on here (cough Ricky Bobby) you would know that Brandon Jacobs is Emmitt Smith reincarnated. ;)

Number 10
07-21-2007, 07:01 PM
Wow you're right. I guess that means Eli is a moron who should have played for the team that drafted him instead of thinking he was too good for the system.

I can't believe there are still Eli defenders. Thank god Tiki took the whole offense with him and now the runt can be exposed.

Rivers gets the nod on O-line, RB, TE, coaching, defense, and scheme when comparing the situations Eli and Rivers are in.

Eli had a better group of WRs but his most reliable WR went down 9 games into the season, so the margin there was minimal.

Please tell me if you disagree with any of that.

CC.SD
07-21-2007, 07:07 PM
Rivers gets the nod on O-line, RB, TE, coaching, defense, and scheme when comparing the situations Eli and Rivers are in.

Eli had a better group of WRs but his most reliable WR went down 9 games into the season, so the margin there was minimal.

Please tell me if you disagree with any of that.

Actually I'd take Vincent Jackson, Eric Parker, Malcolm Floyd and Keenan McCardell over Plaxico, too. They're all hard workers.

But anyone who watches football could tell that Rivers is the better QB as well. Forget all the stats; do you want the guy firing up his teammates, or a guy who has officially been scolded by management for moping during games?

Your argument to convince me that the Chargers are a better team than the Giants has succeeded admirably. You win. but not really.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-21-2007, 07:09 PM
Not to me. He improved the second half last year and I think he needs one more year to see if he's a bust or not.


I forgot about this thread until now, but I said Losman, becuase he asked which one will make an improvement.

Sniper
07-21-2007, 07:12 PM
Actually I'd take Vincent Jackson, Eric Parker, Malcolm Floyd and Keenan McCardell over Plaxico, too. They're all hard workers.

But anyone who watches football could tell that Rivers is the better QB as well. Forget all the stats; do you want the guy firing up his teammates, or a guy who has officially been scolded by management for moping during games?

Your argument to convince me that the Chargers are a better team than the Giants has succeeded admirably. You win. but not really.

I agree with the Rivers being a superior QB. He has better awareness of what the hell is going on, makes better reads and plays much smarter than Manning. For Manning, if his first WR isn't open, he looks clueless.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 07:14 PM
Actually I'd take Vincent Jackson, Eric Parker, Malcolm Floyd and Keenan McCardell over Plaxico, too. They're all hard workers.

But anyone who watches football could tell that Rivers is the better QB as well. Forget all the stats; do you want the guy firing up his teammates, or a guy who has officially been scolded by management for moping during games?

Your argument to convince me that the Chargers are a better team than the Giants has succeeded admirably. You win. but not really.

Alright we'll keep that whole Plaxico vs. Who? argument out of the discussion despite it simply making you look even more foolish.

Scolded by management? Are you joking? See, when you blow things out of proportion/exaggerate like that, it just makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about and you need to do that to make your case look respectable. And yes, I would rather have a calm demeanor at QB that an over-dramatic QB who threw his helmet towards the sideline while walking off the field frustrated. Back in my days of playing, that wouldn't "fire me up". And to say that Eli being quiet and reserved is what makes him a bad QB is pretty weak when you look at a certain 49ers QB who had a decent career despite being very quiet.

And yes, my case for Rivers being in a much easier position to succeed has completely trampled any attempt at a rebuttle, thank you.

Sniper
07-21-2007, 07:19 PM
Alright we'll keep that whole Plaxico vs. Who? argument out of the discussion despite it simply making you look even more foolish.

Scolded by management? Are you joking? See, when you blow things out of proportion/exaggerate like that, it just makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about and you need to do that to make your case look respectable. And yes, I would rather have a calm demeanor at QB that an over-dramatic QB who threw his helmet towards the sideline while walking off the field frustrated. Back in my days of playing, that wouldn't "fire me up". And to say that Eli being quiet and reserved is what makes him a bad QB is pretty weak when you look at a certain 49ers QB who had a decent career despite being very quiet.

And yes, my case for Rivers being in a much easier position to succeed has completely trampled any attempt at a rebuttle, thank you.

There's a difference between calm and reserved and looking like a deer in the headlights, and Eli falls in the latter category.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 07:37 PM
There's a difference between calm and reserved and looking like a deer in the headlights, and Eli falls in the latter category.

Since when does physical appearence have anything to do with his play?

Yeh he looks like a 7th grader sometimes and the blank stare can be made fun of by the guys who think its funny to mock down syndrome....Fact is he is a good QB that has been the first QB since Phil Simms to lead us to the playoffs in consecutive seasons and has overcome adversity more than the haters want to admit. He is a young QB that went through normal problems young QBs go through. This will be a telling year for Eli.

princefielder28
07-21-2007, 07:39 PM
Since when does physical appearence have anything to do with his play?

Yeh he looks like a 7th grader sometimes and the blank stare can be made fun of by the guys who think its funny to mock down syndrome....Fact is he is a good QB that has been the first QB since Phil Simms to lead us to the playoffs in consecutive seasons and has overcome adversity more than the haters want to admit. He is a young QB that went through normal problems young QBs go through. This will be a telling year for Eli.

Unforunately he doesn't have the luxury of Tiki Barber in the backfield and that'll be a piece in him continuing to stuggle.

CC.SD
07-21-2007, 07:44 PM
Number ten, it doesn't matter that you're calling me foolish, it's not going to change how dismal Eli looks out there. The Chargers dodged two serious bullets in the last decade in Vick and Eli, IMO.

anyway, I'd give it up. You're making yourself look bad; plenty of people here debate these quarterbacks rationally and conversationally. I'm sorry for stepping out of line and sniping at you, but just like a battered housewife, it was your initial attitude that made me do it.

Anyway, I'm off work in a couple minutes.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 07:44 PM
Unforunately he doesn't have the luxury of Tiki Barber in the backfield and that'll be a piece in him continuing to stuggle.

That is the main reason this will be a telling year for Eli. If the O-line holds up, which may or may not be the case especially at LT, he should be fine.

And while I expect the running game to take a step back and I worry about Jacobs' health due to his running style, people are under estimating BJ and I couldn't be happier about it. No, he won't rush for 1600 yards and no I don't think he will be a pro bowler, but he is much more than a short yardage back.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 07:46 PM
Number ten, it doesn't matter that you're calling me foolish, it's not going to change how dismal Eli looks out there. The Chargers dodged two serious bullets in the last decade in Vick and Eli, IMO.

anyway, I'd give it up. You're making yourself look bad; plenty of people here debate these quarterbacks rationally and conversationally. I'm sorry for stepping out of line and sniping at you, but just like a battered housewife, it was your initial attitude that made me do it.

Anyway, I'm off work in a couple minutes.

Made myself look bad?

I backed my view up with facts, you went and talked about what? Physical appearence of one's face that judges a QB's play? Good job bud.

princefielder28
07-21-2007, 07:48 PM
Made myself look bad?

I backed my view up with facts, you went and talked about what? Physical appearence of one's face that judges a QB's play? Good job bud.

Number 10 you made a fair argument and thats really all you can do so don't worry about it

CC.SD
07-21-2007, 07:49 PM
Made myself look bad?

I backed my view up with facts, you went and talked about what? Physical appearence of one's face that judges a QB's play? Good job bud.

There's plenty of facts I might bother to drudge up when I sign on tomorrow, but here's my favorite one; if Eli was actually good, you probably wouldn't need to convince everybody he doesn't suck.

Brilliant!
07-21-2007, 07:55 PM
If you look at Eli's stats last year, they weren't all that bad. Calling him a bust is completely absurd. He shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread.

BufFan71
07-21-2007, 08:04 PM
if eli shouldnt be mentioned...neither should losman

Number 10
07-21-2007, 08:12 PM
There's plenty of facts I might bother to drudge up when I sign on tomorrow, but here's my favorite one; if Eli was actually good, you probably wouldn't need to convince everybody he doesn't suck.

Oh, so now he sucks.

Please go on, this is making my work here MUCH easier.

skinzzfan25
07-21-2007, 08:23 PM
Made myself look bad?

I backed my view up with facts, you went and talked about what? Physical appearence of one's face that judges a QB's play? Good job bud.

I think what Charger was trying to say (don't be mad if I convey this wrong, this is how I took it) is that Eli has no leadership skills nor poise. Shocky and Plex rule the huddle, and Coughlin is in his ear hollerin at him. Eli plays like a high school QB inside the pocket, lay one big hit on him early in the game and the rest of the night he's throwing off his back foot. Eli probably isn't that bad, just due to his weak poise and leadership skills, he cannot take control of the locker room or the game.

At times, he does look like a deer in the headlights because he has 0 control over his team. Coughlin is due to part of that, but it's mainly Eli's lack of leadership. This year he won't have Tiki to fall back onto when things get tough. If he succeeds this year, he's not a bust.

And stop pulling the injury card for his WRs. Heck, I'll do the injury card too. The Redskins had the best defense last year, just we were hurt in the secondary so we weren't that good. Face the facts, sometimes your guy just gets screwed over.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 08:28 PM
I think what Charger was trying to say (don't be mad if I convey this wrong, this is how I took it) is that Eli has no leadership skills nor poise. Shocky and Plex rule the huddle, and Coughlin is in his ear hollerin at him. Eli plays like a high school QB inside the pocket, lay one big hit on him early in the game and the rest of the night he's throwing off his back foot. Eli probably isn't that bad, just due to his weak poise and leadership skills, he cannot take control of the locker room or the game.

At times, he does look like a deer in the headlights because he has 0 control over his team. Coughlin is due to part of that, but it's mainly Eli's lack of leadership. This year he won't have Tiki to fall back onto when things get tough. If he succeeds this year, he's not a bust.

And stop pulling the injury card for his WRs. Heck, I'll do the injury card too. The Redskins had the best defense last year, just we were hurt in the secondary so we weren't that good. Face the facts, sometimes your guy just gets screwed over.

You think anyone is going to give you an ounce of respect when you that about the Skins defense? Did you forget that you have no pass rushing, Marshall sucked at MLB, and Holdman was one of the worst starting LBs in the league?

Oh and not to mention the richest safety in football was a complete bust in Archuleta?

skinzzfan25
07-21-2007, 08:32 PM
You think anyone is going to give you an ounce of respect when you that about the Skins defense? Did you forget that you have no pass rushing, Marshall sucked at MLB, and Holdman was one of the worst starting LBs in the league?

Oh and not to mention the richest safety in football was a complete bust in Archuleta?

I was making an exaggeration. But you obviously didn't get it. The point was it doesn't matter your excuse, sometimes you just suck.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 08:49 PM
I was making an exaggeration. But you obviously didn't get it. The point was it doesn't matter your excuse, sometimes you just suck.

Before the injury bug hit us hard (and I'm not even talking about Osi-Strahan-Arrington-Tuck)

we were 6-2 and up there with Bears as the best team in the NFC. Yes, sometimes you do just suck, prime example being the Redskins. But we did not just suck last year, losing your LT and most reliable WR can really hurt a team and especially a QB who is starting for a 2nd year. Oh, and we still made the playoffs and played a very competitive game against the Eagles at their place with the likes of William Joseph, Adrian Awasom, and Fred Robbins rotating at DE.

skinzzfan25
07-21-2007, 09:04 PM
Before the injury bug hit us hard (and I'm not even talking about Osi-Strahan-Arrington-Tuck)

we were 6-2 and up there with Bears as the best team in the NFC. Yes, sometimes you do just suck, prime example being the Redskins. But we did not just suck last year, losing your LT and most reliable WR can really hurt a team and especially a QB who is starting for a 2nd year. Oh, and we still made the playoffs and played a very competitive game against the Eagles at their place with the likes of William Joseph, Adrian Awasom, and Fred Robbins rotating at DE.

Eli Manning can lead you to the playoffs, but your going to get 1 and done every year. If he can barely handle the pressure of the season, theres better chance Brunell wins us another playoff game then Eli making it anywhere in the playoffs. You can go 6-2 the first half of the season all you want, your team crumbles apart towards the end of the season.

Heck, the New York media doesn't defend Eli, his teammates have no confidence in him, Coughlin can't run an offense. The only group of people that have been by Eli's side are the fans and the Giants management because they know the Chargers gave them the wood in that trade.

Oh, by the way, if you want poise look at Campbell. I bet he does better than Eli this season. His skill set (and last name) may not be up to par Eli's, but he has the backing of his coach, organization, fans, and most importantly his team.

ThEvIcTR
07-21-2007, 09:06 PM
Rivers is the better player hands down and it isnt even close.

neko4
07-21-2007, 09:18 PM
I think we should end the Manning/Rivers discoussion, everyone is saying the same thing over and over again

Number 10
07-21-2007, 09:51 PM
Eli Manning can lead you to the playoffs, but your going to get 1 and done every year. If he can barely handle the pressure of the season, theres better chance Brunell wins us another playoff game then Eli making it anywhere in the playoffs. You can go 6-2 the first half of the season all you want, your team crumbles apart towards the end of the season.

Heck, the New York media doesn't defend Eli, his teammates have no confidence in him, Coughlin can't run an offense. The only group of people that have been by Eli's side are the fans and the Giants management because they know the Chargers gave them the wood in that trade.

Oh, by the way, if you want poise look at Campbell. I bet he does better than Eli this season. His skill set (and last name) may not be up to par Eli's, but he has the backing of his coach, organization, fans, and most importantly his team.

You know what's ironic? They said the same thing about Peyton. And Elway. "Won't ever win the big one". It's fools like you that make a statement like that after TWO YEARS that create the whole "Prove everyone wrong" attitude. Suit yourself if you want to make an assumption like that.

The NY media doesn't defend anyone...just another example of how young and nieve you are. I was hoping you'd fall into the trap of somehow putting Campbell and anything Redskins related into the same league as Eli and the Giants. Like Charger, you make my job here much easier by being so stupid.

Ask Broncos fans, Cowboys fans, Eagles fans.....etc if Eli has poise or not. I trust him late in games with the game on the line more than 25 QBs in the NFL right now, at least. Not saying he is a top 10 QB, because he isn't at this point, but his poise late in games is top tier.

Sniper
07-21-2007, 10:03 PM
You know what's ironic? They said the same thing about Peyton. And Elway. "Won't ever win the big one". It's fools like you that make a statement like that after TWO YEARS that create the whole "Prove everyone wrong" attitude. Suit yourself if you want to make an assumption like that.

The NY media doesn't defend anyone...just another example of how young and nieve you are. I was hoping you'd fall into the trap of somehow putting Campbell and anything Redskins related into the same league as Eli and the Giants. Like Charger, you make my job here much easier by being so stupid.

Ask Broncos fans, Cowboys fans, Eagles fans.....etc if Eli has poise or not. I trust him late in games with the game on the line more than 25 QBs in the NFL right now, at least. Not saying he is a top 10 QB, because he isn't at this point, but his poise late in games is top tier.

Eh....I don't know if the first game this year was as much Eli doing something or the Eagles having no pass rush and playing prevent for what seemed like the entire half. But I do remember a beautiful pass to Burress for the GW TD, which occurred right below me as I was in standing room only and I distinctly remember just standing there in shock. I wouldn't say Eli is a bust,(maybe for the expectations they put on him),he's a solid QB but I'd rather have Rivers right now. That being said, Eli still has loads of potential and people write off players too early these days. I mean, some of you guys on here have claimed Reggie Bush is a bust after one season of poor rushing numbers, great receiving numbers and good return numbers. People have called Marvin Williams (different sport I know) a bust after he averaged 12 and 5 this year with no PG. Bottom line is Eli is not a bust yet, he can and probably will get better, but for my money Rivers is better right now and the Giants got boned hard in the trade. And calling players busts after 1-2 seasons is out there.

Vikes99ej
07-21-2007, 10:24 PM
Hey!!! I found the Eli Manning Thread!

skinzzfan25
07-21-2007, 10:34 PM
You know what's ironic? They said the same thing about Peyton. And Elway. "Won't ever win the big one". It's fools like you that make a statement like that after TWO YEARS that create the whole "Prove everyone wrong" attitude. Suit yourself if you want to make an assumption like that.

The NY media doesn't defend anyone...just another example of how young and nieve you are. I was hoping you'd fall into the trap of somehow putting Campbell and anything Redskins related into the same league as Eli and the Giants. Like Charger, you make my job here much easier by being so stupid.

Ask Broncos fans, Cowboys fans, Eagles fans.....etc if Eli has poise or not. I trust him late in games with the game on the line more than 25 QBs in the NFL right now, at least. Not saying he is a top 10 QB, because he isn't at this point, but his poise late in games is top tier.


One thing Campbell has already done in 7 games that Eli has not, is progress every game. It will be interesting to see this year if 'Mighty Eli' can go anywhere without Tiki by his side. The ball is going to be in Eli's court on whether or not you have a good season this year. Jacobs and Droughns aren't going to pull half the load Tiki did.

And just because a QB has a few comebacks, doesn't mean he has any poise. Brunell has led comebacks over the cowboys and jags, does that make him any good?

Number 10
07-21-2007, 10:41 PM
Eh....I don't know if the first game this year was as much Eli doing something or the Eagles having no pass rush and playing prevent for what seemed like the entire half. But I do remember a beautiful pass to Burress for the GW TD, which occurred right below me as I was in standing room only and I distinctly remember just standing there in shock. I wouldn't say Eli is a bust,(maybe for the expectations they put on him),he's a solid QB but I'd rather have Rivers right now. That being said, Eli still has loads of potential and people write off players too early these days. I mean, some of you guys on here have claimed Reggie Bush is a bust after one season of poor rushing numbers, great receiving numbers and good return numbers. People have called Marvin Williams (different sport I know) a bust after he averaged 12 and 5 this year with no PG. Bottom line is Eli is not a bust yet, he can and probably will get better, but for my money Rivers is better right now and the Giants got boned hard in the trade. And calling players busts after 1-2 seasons is out there.


Eagles didn't have any pass rush? Go check out how many sacks they had that game and then get back to me. Eli's GW pass wasn't even close to his best play of the game either.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 10:43 PM
One thing Campbell has already done in 7 games that Eli has not, is progress every game. It will be interesting to see this year if 'Mighty Eli' can go anywhere without Tiki by his side. The ball is going to be in Eli's court on whether or not you have a good season this year. Jacobs and Droughns aren't going to pull half the load Tiki did.

And just because a QB has a few comebacks, doesn't mean he has any poise. Brunell has led comebacks over the cowboys and jags, does that make him any good?

You think Campbell is better than Eli now?

Man stupid me, I thought your horrid 2006 season would shut you guys up for this offseason, well we were close anyway.

And Brunell having comebacks does not make him good, but Brunell DID have poise. Which is what I was talking about, which is what you were talking about. That doesn't make one good though.....so no, Brunell isn't any good anymore.

And do you want to go on record that Jacobs/Droughns won't match one half of Tiki's production? Or were you exaggerating.....again?

skinzzfan25
07-21-2007, 11:01 PM
You think Campbell is better than Eli now?

Man stupid me, I thought your horrid 2006 season would shut you guys up for this offseason, well we were close anyway.

And Brunell having comebacks does not make him good, but Brunell DID have poise. Which is what I was talking about, which is what you were talking about. That doesn't make one good though.....so no, Brunell isn't any good anymore.

And do you want to go on record that Jacobs/Droughns won't match one half of Tiki's production? Or were you exaggerating.....again?

If going to the playoffs and getting beat by a McNabb-less Eagles get an award, you have just won it. At least you scored this playoff game.

Droughns: 758 yards on 3.4 YPC longest run was 22 yards :\

Jacobs is a different story, he's great as a goal line back, but I don't think he can materialize into anything else other than that. He's not an edge runner, nor should he beat the average NFL OLB to the sideline.

Tiki had 2127 cumulative yards this season.

The team as a whole had 5214
http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/NYG

40% of your offense is displaced this year, thats about 2000 yards. Somebody will have to pick up a lot of slack this year. I've never said Eli was a bust, just things to not look too bright for him down the road. And no matter what, you still get shafted on that deal.

Flyboy
07-21-2007, 11:04 PM
... Oh vey.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 11:19 PM
If going to the playoffs and getting beat by a McNabb-less Eagles get an award, you have just won it. At least you scored this playoff game.

Droughns: 758 yards on 3.4 YPC longest run was 22 yards :\

Jacobs is a different story, he's great as a goal line back, but I don't think he can materialize into anything else other than that. He's not an edge runner, nor should he beat the average NFL OLB to the sideline.

Tiki had 2127 cumulative yards this season.

The team as a whole had 5214
http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/NYG

40% of your offense is displaced this year, thats about 2000 yards. Somebody will have to pick up a lot of slack this year. I've never said Eli was a bust, just things to not look too bright for him down the road. And no matter what, you still get shafted on that deal.

The McNabb-less Eagles were arguably the hottest team in football when Garcia took over big guy.

And answer my question please. Do you think Jacobs and Droughns will equal half of Tiki's production, or was that an exaggeration again?

skinzzfan25
07-21-2007, 11:29 PM
The McNabb-less Eagles were arguably the hottest team in football when Garcia took over big guy.

And answer my question please. Do you think Jacobs and Droughns will equal half of Tiki's production, or was that an exaggeration again?

I'd say combined they don't make it over 1800 and 16 TDs.

Sniper
07-21-2007, 11:38 PM
Eagles didn't have any pass rush? Go check out how many sacks they had that game and then get back to me. Eli's GW pass wasn't even close to his best play of the game either.

I meant to say no pass rush in the second half. They had 8 sacks, but if I remember correctly in the second half they didn't do jack because the Giants went to a lot of max protect. They recorded 3 sacks after halftime. And about the GW pass, cut me some slack man. I actually said something nice about Eli and then you jump down my throat because it wasn't the nicest play. Whoop-dee damn do.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 11:46 PM
I'd say combined they don't make it over 1800 and 16 TDs.

SO you exaggerated? Because that is A LOT more than half of Tiki's production. A LOT more.

Number 10
07-21-2007, 11:49 PM
I meant to say no pass rush in the second half. They had 8 sacks, but if I remember correctly in the second half they didn't do jack because the Giants went to a lot of max protect. They recorded 3 sacks after halftime. And about the GW pass, cut me some slack man. I actually said something nice about Eli and then you jump down my throat because it wasn't the nicest play. Whoop-dee damn do.

3 sacks in a half is pretty good is you ask me. If you do that every half you play, you end the season with 96 sacks.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-22-2007, 10:09 AM
I agree with the Rivers being a superior QB. He has better awareness of what the hell is going on, makes better reads and plays much smarter than Manning. For Manning, if his first WR isn't open, he looks clueless.

Unfortunetly that's just the way he looks, lol. Doesnt mean he is though. Look up the stats on how he distributed the ball to all the players. He has been doing that since he got here. He spreads the wealth when it comes to throwing TD passes. So unless you watch all 16 games like we do, I'd have to say you are grossly mistaken. He looks for Plax, but if he is not goes through his progression and finds someone else to throw to. Problem was without Toomer, the talent difference between Toomer and Carter was huge. But I'd say he does a really good job of speading the wealth and throwing Tds to other guys.

smittyjs
07-22-2007, 01:18 PM
if eli shouldnt be mentioned...neither should losmanI agree with that all the way.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-22-2007, 02:40 PM
I agree with that all the way.

I agree as well. His stats are not bad, and he is improving which is the key. Look at Brees, started out slow in his career, but now picked it up. Any of these 4 Qbs can do the same, or conversly slip. But I will wait for 6-8 years to decide rather than now, when they have like 2 full seasons under their belts.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493000

Passing
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
2004 Buffalo Bills 4 0 5 3 60.0 32 6.40 17 0 1 1/0 0 0 39.2
2005 Buffalo Bills 9 8 228 113 49.6 1340 5.88 58 8 8 26/197 15 6 64.9
2006 Buffalo Bills 16 16 429 268 62.5 3051 7.11 83 19 14 47/332 35 10 84.9
TOTAL 29 24 662 384 58.0 4423 6.68 83 27 23 74/529 50 16 77.4

CC.SD
07-22-2007, 02:58 PM
Made myself look bad?

I backed my view up with facts, you went and talked about what? Physical appearence of one's face that judges a QB's play? Good job bud.

You are making yourself look bad, man. If you go back to where I said that, you'll notice I didn't say that because of how you were arguing, it's because you're being disrespectful. Calling people stupid or "fools" isn't going to convince anyone; it's going to make you look like a petty name caller.

IMO;

Eli has a bad football attitude: If you're a quarterback projected to go first in the draft, unless you are John Elway, you play for the team you are drafted for. You don't threaten to sit out an entire season because you don't like the team you're going to. The kid was ready to give up football rather than play for San Diego. That's pathetic. Playing in the NFL at all should be a dream in any scenario.

I've seen this opinion of mine get backed up a hundred times in the last few years; believe it or not, when I talked about how Eli mopes on the sidelines, I was not critiquing his physical appearance. I'm talking about what a piss poor message that sends to his teammates. You brought up th example of Rivers throwing his helmet one game in frustration; I'd rather have a leader with that attitude than the guy with his head down any day of the week. I don't think I'd be alone. One guy wants to win so badly he can't control his emotions, the other has given up. I've never seen Eli display leadership on the level Rivers already has in one year. Maybe it's Tiki's fault. If you ask me, when Eli is wandering around after throwing a pick, he looks like an alien from a ******** planet (bababooie), it's just not the attitude the team needs.

Forget pro bowl appearances, and statistics and whatnot; they're easily manipulated and not in Eli's favor anyway. But can you seriously not see some of the flaws in Eli's game? They're correctable, but they've been correctable for a long time. He doesn't have great touch; too many screen passes have hit the dirt , or been way too high for no reason. He throws off his back foot. His best passes are results of skyballing to Plaxico.

Very correctable stuff; obviously the sky's the limit with Eli, he wouldn't have been chosen number 1 otherwise. But he's not there yet. People said John Elway and Peyton would never win the big one; they said that because they were great talents, who showed prodigious skills every game, and yet didn't win a ring. It was a SHAME that they hadn't won the big one. Everybody knew that they had the talent do it, and that's why it was such a big deal. Eli hasn't shown enough to even merit being in the conversation with those guys.

That all said, it's early yet. You may now commence attempting to defend Eli and bring me down. It will really make a difference in the long run, trust me.

Sniper
07-22-2007, 03:01 PM
Unfortunetly that's just the way he looks, lol. Doesnt mean he is though. Look up the stats on how he distributed the ball to all the players. He has been doing that since he got here. He spreads the wealth when it comes to throwing TD passes. So unless you watch all 16 games like we do, I'd have to say you are grossly mistaken. He looks for Plax, but if he is not goes through his progression and finds someone else to throw to. Problem was without Toomer, the talent difference between Toomer and Carter was huge. But I'd say he does a really good job of speading the wealth and throwing Tds to other guys.

I'm sorry, but as an Eagles fan I don't empathize with you on the WR situation. McNabb's been making it rain with studs like FredEx, Pinkston, etc.... Eli has one of the best TE in the game and a really good WR to start. If you're good you can make it happen.

Number 10
07-22-2007, 03:17 PM
I'm sorry, but as an Eagles fan I don't empathize with you on the WR situation. McNabb's been making it rain with studs like FredEx, Pinkston, etc.... Eli has one of the best TE in the game and a really good WR to start. If you're good you can make it happen.


Nobody is saying Eli is on McNabb's level....because he isn't. He still has a long ways to go to be mentioned in the same breath as him....then again so do all but maybe 5 QBs in the league.

Number 10
07-22-2007, 03:52 PM
You are making yourself look bad, man. If you go back to where I said that, you'll notice I didn't say that because of how you were arguing, it's because you're being disrespectful. Calling people stupid or "fools" isn't going to convince anyone; it's going to make you look like a petty name caller.

IMO;

Eli has a bad football attitude: If you're a quarterback projected to go first in the draft, unless you are John Elway, you play for the team you are drafted for. You don't threaten to sit out an entire season because you don't like the team you're going to. The kid was ready to give up football rather than play for San Diego. That's pathetic. Playing in the NFL at all should be a dream in any scenario.

I've seen this opinion of mine get backed up a hundred times in the last few years; believe it or not, when I talked about how Eli mopes on the sidelines, I was not critiquing his physical appearance. I'm talking about what a piss poor message that sends to his teammates. You brought up th example of Rivers throwing his helmet one game in frustration; I'd rather have a leader with that attitude than the guy with his head down any day of the week. I don't think I'd be alone. One guy wants to win so badly he can't control his emotions, the other has given up. I've never seen Eli display leadership on the level Rivers already has in one year. Maybe it's Tiki's fault. If you ask me, when Eli is wandering around after throwing a pick, he looks like an alien from a ******** planet (bababooie), it's just not the attitude the team needs.

Forget pro bowl appearances, and statistics and whatnot; they're easily manipulated and not in Eli's favor anyway. But can you seriously not see some of the flaws in Eli's game? They're correctable, but they've been correctable for a long time. He doesn't have great touch; too many screen passes have hit the dirt , or been way too high for no reason. He throws off his back foot. His best passes are results of skyballing to Plaxico.

Very correctable stuff; obviously the sky's the limit with Eli, he wouldn't have been chosen number 1 otherwise. But he's not there yet. People said John Elway and Peyton would never win the big one; they said that because they were great talents, who showed prodigious skills every game, and yet didn't win a ring. It was a SHAME that they hadn't won the big one. Everybody knew that they had the talent do it, and that's why it was such a big deal. Eli hasn't shown enough to even merit being in the conversation with those guys.

That all said, it's early yet. You may now commence attempting to defend Eli and bring me down. It will really make a difference in the long run, trust me.

You just don't get it though, that's the thing. You watch BSPN and see a clip of Eli moping on the sidelines.....BIG WHOOP!!!!!!!!!! Do you go to the games and watch him for the 3 hours they're out there and dissect every movement on the sidelines? No, you just buy into whatever anyone on TV tells you because your information about the kid's leadership is scarce if it exists at all.

Yes, the pre-draft antic he pulled was something I did not agree with, trust me. And as a Chargers fan, you have to admit that your view of him is at least a little bit biased here. But that has nothing to do with the conversation when discussing Eli as a QB. Trash him as a person all you want, I don't care.

And I would never want a QB that cannot control his own emotions, NEVER. Ryan Leaf ring a bell? Do I think that Eli will need to step it up in terms of his body language when struggling? Hell yeh I do and I fully expect him to. But because he plays in NY, everyone rushes things and puts way too much on his plate way too early, simply not fair. You've never seen Eli display leadership? Let's be honest here, how often do you pay attention to anything Giants related? Did you hear what he did this offseason?

Where have I said Eli is flawless? Please, before you post anything else, point to the post where I said he is flawless. After you don't find it, stop putting words in my mouth, it makes your stance weaker. I have been critical of Eli's mechanics, much more so than most Giants fans here. I am fully aware that he needs to step into his throws better and I am fully aware that he needs to throw a better ball more consistently. As bad as Eli looks sometimes, to think he has still led the Giants to the playoffs on consecutive years in a tough division for the 1st time since Parcells was here with some good AND IMPROVING numbers causes reasons for optimism. The offensive system he has played in the past two years demanded WAY too much from him and that is not coming from me. He has not been put in the situation that Rivers has been thrown into, you can't deny that.

keylime_5
07-22-2007, 04:46 PM
Rivers is the better player hands down and it isnt even close.

Rivers was pretty lousy at times down the homestretch of the season last year, especially vs Oakland, Buffalo, Seattle, Kansas City, and New England. He obviously was only a first year starter and was on probably the most talented team in the NFL, but will become a very good QB no doubt. However if Eli was a Charger last year (meaning if he hadn't gone all sissy girly and demanded to be a Giant) then I think he would've been better. Keep in mind that Philip did have a great year, but he wasn't throwing the ball with as much confidence from his coaching staff as Eli was. Eli threw over 520 passes to Rivers' 460. Situation is a very important factor in QB success. Switch the situations and I think their stats would've been extraordinarily different. We shouldn't judge who is a better player just on one season, Eli will probably come around as soon as he gets a good team around him. Though if I'm a Charger fan I really can't be happier about that Eli/Philip trade 3 years ago, it was a total ripoff, New York should've just forgotten the whole thing and kept Rivers, and Eli should've shut his big yapper.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-22-2007, 06:33 PM
I'm sorry, but as an Eagles fan I don't empathize with you on the WR situation. McNabb's been making it rain with studs like FredEx, Pinkston, etc.... Eli has one of the best TE in the game and a really good WR to start. If you're good you can make it happen.

Ahh an eagles fan... And now under huffy we barely utilized Shockey. And it's not madden or playground ball where you call your own plays. Ironically we played a game against you where Shockey had 1 catch for 1 yard. This is the kind of nonsense we had to deal with as Huffy as our OC. Thank god he got fired.

Vikes99ej
07-22-2007, 07:13 PM
Rivers is the better player hands down and it isnt even close.

Hands down AND it isn't even close. He must be, then.

Mr. Stiller
07-22-2007, 08:17 PM
Number 10,

I know your fair and honest in your assessments. The only reason I brought Eli up was because I am seriously frustrated.

I know not here, but I hear that Ben isn't a top 10 QB and he's horribly overrated and average.

I just don't see how his 2 seasons, that he went to the AFCC, and Superbowl, granted he did bad in the superbowl.. he should be given credit. Yet I hear how either Eli or Philip have outplayed him. I have yet to see it. I know I'm a steeler fan and will defend my player to the death, but frankly it's aggrivating.

I used the "Injury Card" Last year and all I heard was how Ben was overrated.

Yet It's used in Eli's case all year.

I understand you lost Toomer and Pettigout. We lost Starks, Simmons, Hartings, Ward, Porter, Harrison, Wilson, Clark, Polamalu, Kreider.

Theres more I just can't think of them.. But I still hear he's overrated and I'm making excuses.

I understand Rivers had a great season. But he's still only had one, and some think he's top 10 with little more than 1 season showing.

I just don't understand how Eli can use something Giants fans bash other people. "Pulling out the injury card" tends to be an excuse for everyone but Eli.

Rivers WR's are sub-par... Ben lost his #1/#2 last year. Hell Brady hasn't had a #1 or #2 to work with period. Eli has Plaxico.. atleast he had his #1 all season. He lost his LT.. I know Ben lost his C/RG and RT.

I just don't see why Eli gets the advantage of using that excuse.

Number 10
07-22-2007, 09:06 PM
Number 10,

I know your fair and honest in your assessments. The only reason I brought Eli up was because I am seriously frustrated.

I know not here, but I hear that Ben isn't a top 10 QB and he's horribly overrated and average.

I just don't see how his 2 seasons, that he went to the AFCC, and Superbowl, granted he did bad in the superbowl.. he should be given credit. Yet I hear how either Eli or Philip have outplayed him. I have yet to see it. I know I'm a steeler fan and will defend my player to the death, but frankly it's aggrivating.

I used the "Injury Card" Last year and all I heard was how Ben was overrated.

Yet It's used in Eli's case all year.

I understand you lost Toomer and Pettigout. We lost Starks, Simmons, Hartings, Ward, Porter, Harrison, Wilson, Clark, Polamalu, Kreider.

Theres more I just can't think of them.. But I still hear he's overrated and I'm making excuses.

I understand Rivers had a great season. But he's still only had one, and some think he's top 10 with little more than 1 season showing.

I just don't understand how Eli can use something Giants fans bash other people. "Pulling out the injury card" tends to be an excuse for everyone but Eli.

Rivers WR's are sub-par... Ben lost his #1/#2 last year. Hell Brady hasn't had a #1 or #2 to work with period. Eli has Plaxico.. atleast he had his #1 all season. He lost his LT.. I know Ben lost his C/RG and RT.

I just don't see why Eli gets the advantage of using that excuse.


I need to be up for work in 7 hours, so I'll say this then be off to bed. This is my deal with the whole Eli-Rivers-Ben debate.

I said, after the 2005 season...AKA Big Ben Mania, that I was going to wait until the end of the 2007 season to wait to rank these QBs. I stand here in July of 2007 and I will give myself a little pat on the back because I feel that accurately ranking these 3 amongst themselves and amongst the rest of the NFL MUST wait until the end of this season, their 4th.

They have all had their struggles, they have all had their success, and they have all faced different kinds of adversity (well, maybe not Rivers, haha). Ben got knocked around last year big time and had to deal with his fair shair of injuries. Eli lost his starting LT and most reliable WR on top of playing under arguably the worst playcaller in the NFL. And again, that isn't just my opinion, Kevin Gilbride said so himself. I'm not knocking Rivers here....but he hasn't been hurt and he didn't have to deal with the kind of injuries/lack of brains on the coaching staff that Ben/Eli did.

This will be a telling year for these three because they have all had a few NFL offseasons to fully prepare and work with their new teammates on top of grasping the NFL life. They have all had game experience, BIG game experience if you think about it. I am trying my hardest to stay away from the "he is better than him but not better than him" type post because it just isn't fair at this point. The Giants have put WAY too much on Eli's shoulders early on in his career. Obviously he could have gotten his career off to a much better start, but he has led this team to the playoffs in both years as a starter (which hasn't been done since 1990) and has thrown for almost 50 TDs and 7,000+ yards. He has his issues to work out but for God's sake, I understand the New York limelight combined with being a #1 pick reaps high expectations, but he is progressing like a normal QB. He isn't, nor do I think he will ever be an icon like his brother, but I think he could and will be the best QB out of this class.

Time will tell, and only time will tell. NFL fans, especially young ones, rush to judgements to an extent that makes me sick. People are literally TRASHING Eli because he doesn't lead like Peyton in his 2nd year as a starter on a team full of ego-maniacs!!!! It's absurd if you think about it.

By saying Ben and Rivers were thrown into much easier positions early on is not an insult to their level of play. Both of them have done great to this point in their careers and I think either one of them could easily be the best QB to come out of this class. I simply think neither of them have seen the adversity Eli has and I feel that with both of them losing their coaching staffs will tell us all a lot about them. Again, at the end of the 2007 season, we will know A LOT more, more than the first 3 years of their careers combined have brought us.

brat316
07-24-2007, 08:34 PM
i thinking jenkins will come back from being a bust

CC.SD
07-24-2007, 08:42 PM
i thinking jenkins will come back from being a bust

No way, that whole offense gets a makeover in the next 3 years. Only Jerious Norwood survives.

JK17
07-24-2007, 11:13 PM
I need to be up for work in 7 hours, so I'll say this then be off to bed. This is my deal with the whole Eli-Rivers-Ben debate.

I said, after the 2005 season...AKA Big Ben Mania, that I was going to wait until the end of the 2007 season to wait to rank these QBs. I stand here in July of 2007 and I will give myself a little pat on the back because I feel that accurately ranking these 3 amongst themselves and amongst the rest of the NFL MUST wait until the end of this season, their 4th.

They have all had their struggles, they have all had their success, and they have all faced different kinds of adversity (well, maybe not Rivers, haha). Ben got knocked around last year big time and had to deal with his fair shair of injuries. Eli lost his starting LT and most reliable WR on top of playing under arguably the worst playcaller in the NFL. And again, that isn't just my opinion, Kevin Gilbride said so himself. I'm not knocking Rivers here....but he hasn't been hurt and he didn't have to deal with the kind of injuries/lack of brains on the coaching staff that Ben/Eli did.

This will be a telling year for these three because they have all had a few NFL offseasons to fully prepare and work with their new teammates on top of grasping the NFL life. They have all had game experience, BIG game experience if you think about it. I am trying my hardest to stay away from the "he is better than him but not better than him" type post because it just isn't fair at this point. The Giants have put WAY too much on Eli's shoulders early on in his career. Obviously he could have gotten his career off to a much better start, but he has led this team to the playoffs in both years as a starter (which hasn't been done since 1990) and has thrown for almost 50 TDs and 7,000+ yards. He has his issues to work out but for God's sake, I understand the New York limelight combined with being a #1 pick reaps high expectations, but he is progressing like a normal QB. He isn't, nor do I think he will ever be an icon like his brother, but I think he could and will be the best QB out of this class.

Time will tell, and only time will tell. NFL fans, especially young ones, rush to judgements to an extent that makes me sick. People are literally TRASHING Eli because he doesn't lead like Peyton in his 2nd year as a starter on a team full of ego-maniacs!!!! It's absurd if you think about it.

By saying Ben and Rivers were thrown into much easier positions early on is not an insult to their level of play. Both of them have done great to this point in their careers and I think either one of them could easily be the best QB to come out of this class. I simply think neither of them have seen the adversity Eli has and I feel that with both of them losing their coaching staffs will tell us all a lot about them. Again, at the end of the 2007 season, we will know A LOT more, more than the first 3 years of their careers combined have brought us.


Just in response to the bolded statements, because I don't want to get into a Ben-Eli-Rivers debate, since it weill never end, but you're wrong there. Rivers was injured, not only going into the season finale, but going into the playoffs, and it was a possibility Volek would've started the AFC Championship game had they made it. And for his receivers and weapons being injured, Both Jackson, and Parker, his #1 and #2 guys (excluding Gate and LT) were injured throughout the year, Parker most notably as he was Rivers' go to guy. As far as lack of brains coaching, there has been plenty of that in SD's playoff apperance, see Cameron's entire second half of play, where he refused to give the ball to the best player on the team.

And as for adversity, half of (I'm reluctant to say, due to lack of a plethora of fans) "Charger Nation" was down on him because they'd have preferred Brees. One of the top stories of the offseason was them letting Drew walk, and how much of a mistake it was, and for Philip to show they weren't wrong in their decision is a big deal, not to mention the adversity he faced during the season, as he showed he had the guts and had what it takes to come back when the game was on the line, and he was the one to rally them. (Cincy, Denver, Seattle, etc.)

ricky bobby
07-25-2007, 07:48 AM
Eli was put in a lot of tough situations due to the poor defense. The team was playing from behind a lot, so they would throw Eli out on the field and force him to chuck the ball, and his stats are indicative of that. Unfortunately, for Eli, the opposing defense would attempt to shut down the big play in the passing game, and rather let Tiki have his 4 or 5 yards. This would run the clock and prevent a quick touchdown. That, IMO, is why Tiki had such a great season, while Eli stuggled.

Eli's stats last year - 3244 yards, 57.7 % comp. , 24 TDs, 18 INTs, 77 rating.

Those stats are far, far from those of a bust. He has been improving every season, busts don't improve. Whoever brought Eli up in this thread was being a wise guy and did it on purpose to infuriate Giant fans such as myself and Number 10. Bravo sir, you have succeeded.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-25-2007, 08:05 AM
Or.. Whisenhunt, Cam Cameron, huffy.. Which one was good enough to get promoted to a HC.. 2/3 did, one got fired....before the season even ended. Great job by both franchises in getting two sick OCs in my mind. One big disadvantage is our players didnt like both coordinators, and that our OC sucked in situational playcalling. Factor that with inconsistency from Eli, injuries, and perhaps Tiki's personality, which did impact the locker room, I am suprised Eli basically replicated the same stats from his first full season. I would have expected Alex Smith type numbers with that much chaos.

Mr. Stiller
07-25-2007, 10:22 AM
Eli was put in a lot of tough situations due to the poor defense. The team was playing from behind a lot, so they would throw Eli out on the field and force him to chuck the ball, and his stats are indicative of that. Unfortunately, for Eli, the opposing defense would attempt to shut down the big play in the passing game, and rather let Tiki have his 4 or 5 yards. This would run the clock and prevent a quick touchdown. That, IMO, is why Tiki had such a great season, while Eli stuggled.

Eli's stats last year - 3244 yards, 57.7 % comp. , 24 TDs, 18 INTs, 77 rating.

Those stats are far, far from those of a bust. He has been improving every season, busts don't improve. Whoever brought Eli up in this thread was being a wise guy and did it on purpose to infuriate Giant fans such as myself and Number 10. Bravo sir, you have succeeded.

Did you watch any Steelers games last year? People knock Ben for it, but he was in the same situation as Eli.