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View Full Version : The Penny Defense and Its Potential Impact


bigbluedefense
07-22-2007, 06:32 PM
Ive been thinking about this for a couple of months now. Not many teams use it (it was mostly used by Parcells and Zimmer in Dallas, and ive seen variations of it with the Ryan brothers in Balt. and Oak.), but I see a lot of potential for this scheme with the current trends in the NFL.


For those that don't know, the penny defense is removing a back 7 defender (usually a SS) and substituting him with a CB. The more famous approach of this base is coming out in a base defense (4-3 for example) and instead of using 2 CBs and 2 safeties, come out with 3 CBs and 1 FS.

This allows you to defend spread formations and teams with an elite pass catching TE without having to sacrifice bodies in the box against the run. Its an alternative to a base nickel package if you think about it.

With more and more teams running the Air Coryell and using spread formations with 3 WRs or a split wide TE, I think this set has lots of potential in today's NFL. The problem with defending these spread offenses is that teams are running out of these sets more and more, and taking advantage of the nickel defenses in front of them. (Also a reason why ZBS is gaining popularity)

By using this base, you reduce their ability to run out of these spread sets, while maintaining the ability to defend the pass.


Here's the problem: Just like any defense, you better have the personnell to run it. To run this scheme, youre basically running alot of man coverages and Cover 0/1 techniques. You MUST have an elite ballhawk type of FS (Like an Ed Reed or Bob Sanders for example), and a shutdown corner. Having a solid nickel corner is essential as well.

A simple example of a play out of this set would be this. Let's use the Colts for example. They come out in a 3 WR singleback set. Now they love to run and pass out of this set. And they love to throw deep. A defense out of the penny formation for this would be press man coverage. Press man against Harrison with your shutdown corner, double up Wayne with the FS and the 2nd CB, and press man with the nickel CB on the slot. Then you got an LB on Clark, and blitz the rest in a Cover 0 all out blitz play. That prevents the deep routes from developing down field and forces Peyton to get rid of it quick. If the man coverages hold up you can run it all day. If Clark burns your LB, then substitute a LB for a SS, and put him in Man vs Clark. You sacrifice a little against the run, but you still technically have 7 in the box and more speed to counter the pass.

Of course this is all easier said than done, but if you have a talented secondary (like the Raiders, Eagles, or Ravens) I don't see why this package can't work in certain situations. I think with spread formations growing in popularity in the NFL, this set has potential to be used more often to counter the offense.

I also think that with more and more pass catching TEs, it can be used effectively against teams if your defense does not have a SAM or SS who is capable of defending the TE.

Im curious to see if this defense gains popularity amongst coordinators. Its an alternative to the Tampa 2. Right now, many teams are switching to Tampa 2 philosophies to defend this growing trend of spread offenses and pass catching TEs. The penny defense offers a different method to defending this trend. Im sure pseudo techniques will also become more famous, as coordinators will mix and match philosophies and come up with their own solutions. Im not saying that the Penny formation will become a base defense, but I can definately see it being used more as a situationaly package in upcoming years.

Just something to keep an eye on this upcoming season. :)

Don Vito
07-22-2007, 06:36 PM
Seems like this combines aspects of a few schemes as far as the secondary is concerned, you would need a shutdown corner who excels in man coverage, and correct me if I am wrong but you would need some corners who are very good against the run as well. Sounds interesting.

neko4
07-22-2007, 06:36 PM
So could this become the future of the NFL and one day remove the SS position

bigbluedefense
07-22-2007, 06:42 PM
Seems like this combines aspects of a few schemes as far as the secondary is concerned, you would need a shutdown corner who excels in man coverage, and correct me if I am wrong but you would need some corners who are very good against the run as well. Sounds interesting.

Yes, the CBs would definately have to be willing to get in there and make tackles. Not as much as the Tampa 2 scheme, but it would still be needed. I think its more demanding for the nickel CB to do this compared to the outside CBs, because the nickel CB would be more of an in the box type if he defends the TE, or in the slot against slot receivers.

So could this become the future of the NFL and one day remove the SS position

Not necessarily. Just an alternative. Ideally, you want a SS who can play like a nickel CB, a guy who can defend TEs in man coverage, and play well in the box to defend the run. Basically, I personally feel that the SS is going to be as important of a position as CB. He has to be the most athletic and versatile player on the field. He has to be fast enough to defend the deep zone and the TE man up, he has to be strong enough to blitz, and tackle runningbacks in the box. However, that prototype isn't exactly easy to find. We saw one in the draft in Landry, and he was the 6th pick and widely considered the BPA on defense in the whole draft. That indicates that these type of defenders are not easy to find and will require a high investment. A nickel CB is easier to find. Which is why this set can be an alternative for teams who do not have that elite SS but do have a FS who can ballhawk.

Ravens1991
07-22-2007, 06:44 PM
So could this become the future of the NFL and one day remove the SS position

I am not sure about that, but if a team has elite pass catching TE or line up in 3 WR set a lot I think this will be used.

BamaFalcon59
07-22-2007, 06:50 PM
Well, Zimmer might have some difficulty using it in Atlanta. We're so young. Our nickle (Lewis Sanders) has starting experience but isn't anything special.

DeAngelo Hall and Chris Houston are great man to man coverage guys though, but Houston is probably too young to go one on one consistently. Jimmy Williams has the potential to dominate at free safety. Milloy is a liability in pass coverage so getting him off the field in passing situations is good.

Overall I could see us using it in the near future.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-22-2007, 07:11 PM
I saw Rob Ryan do this to an extent last year, but considering that Huff was basically at all times a SS/NB combination player, we may as well have been lining up in a normal safety setup.

I'm not entirely sure Oakland really has the personnel to run this scheme all that well. Huff obviously can go from strong safety to nickelback, but there's apparently a whole bunch of people who feel he'd be a better fit playing deep at a free safety position. Although this wouldn't allow us to use him to cover tight ends or play him at corner, it would keep him out of the box, where his tackling form and lack of power are exploited every game.

Interesting writeup though.

BlindSite
07-22-2007, 07:42 PM
I've always liked the use of it, especially, like you pointed out with the re-emergence of tight ends as deep threats. Trouble is that corner needs to be able to pack a wallop and not many in the league can.

JF4
07-22-2007, 07:44 PM
Nice write up.

I'll look out to see if the Packers run it this year. They have the personnel to run it every once and a while but definately not against some of the teams with better receivers.

etk
07-22-2007, 08:04 PM
I've always been a fan of Cover One in certain situations. It allows teams to stack the box and still play safe against the big play. The best thing about the Penny defense specifically is the ability to blitz the Nickel corner or OLB from the edge, depending on the strength. Teams that run spread have ace backfield, so creating confusion at the LOS can allow a free run depending on which side the HB blocks. It's even better on shotgun because you can blitz a corner from the side opposite the HB to stop draw plays and delayed off-tackles. The problem with this defense is that the Nickel essentially has to have Cover 2 tools because he has to be physical and a good run stopper. Putting an oversized corner like Juran Bolden at the position could lead to complete burnage by fast slots so one has to be careful within the system.

HoopsDemon12
07-22-2007, 08:11 PM
So could this become the future of the NFL and one day remove the SS position

i think the safety is just starting to be fully utilized and will be a part of hte game for awhile before something else comes around

MasterShake
07-22-2007, 08:12 PM
The 49ers may have set themselves up to run a similar defense.

We have an Elite CB (Clements) and very good nickel (Spencer or Harris depending on who wins the battle for starting Corner). The nice peace to the puzzle for the Niners is that Michael Lewis is a SS with LB-like skills and will be playing LB in our Nickel packages.

So the Niners will pull an LB in nickel defense, but slide Lewis into that spot while bringing in that 3rd CB. This will mean very little loss in run defense because Lewis excells at that, but also maintaining some coverage ability because even though Lewis isn't a good cover safety, he is better that most LB's without a doubt.

We are missing that elite FS, although Roman is OK, hopefully he will hold up decently for us while Dashon Goldson develops or we get someone new next year.

yourfavestoner
07-22-2007, 08:13 PM
This just makes me really, really excited to see what the Jaguars are going to be able to do with Reggie Nelson.

bigbluedefense
07-22-2007, 08:25 PM
I've always been a fan of Cover One in certain situations. It allows teams to stack the box and still play safe against the big play. The best thing about the Penny defense specifically is the ability to blitz the Nickel corner or OLB from the edge, depending on the strength. Teams that run spread have ace backfield, so creating confusion at the LOS can allow a free run depending on which side the HB blocks. It's even better on shotgun because you can blitz a corner from the side opposite the HB to stop draw plays and delayed off-tackles. The problem with this defense is that the Nickel essentially has to have Cover 2 tools because he has to be physical and a good run stopper. Putting an oversized corner like Juran Bolden at the position could lead to complete burnage by fast slots so one has to be careful within the system.

Yeah, I agree. I think ideally, you want the nickel corner to be like you said, and if they put a burner in the slot, you probably gotta put your #2 CB in the slot and have your nickel on the #2 WR with safety help up top. This presents an issue for run stopping of course, but having that extra LB on the field in this formation should help alleviate that problem.

This just makes me really, really excited to see what the Jaguars are going to be able to do with Reggie Nelson.

Reggie Nelson could do very well in a package like this. He's built for it. For the Jags though, with those 2 mammoth DTs up front, you can run a 4-2 nickel and still stuff the run admirably. I don't think its necessary to run with the personnell the Jags have. Id run it once in awhile, but Id stick with mainly nickel fronts against spread sets with that Jag lineup.

Geo
07-22-2007, 08:31 PM
I think the Eagles tried using the penny defense against the Colts last season - if memory serves correct, Rod Hood was playing nickel and the team benched Michael Lewis for Sean Considine to play as a hybrid safety/linebacker. They kept the passing game "contained," but only because the running game decimated them and the Eagles were dominated run-blocking-wise by the Colts.

I'd be more interested to see Dallas run it, given their stronger front seven, if/when they actually get a legit free safety who can make plays for his own team.

bigbluedefense
07-22-2007, 08:35 PM
I think the Eagles tried using the penny defense against the Colts last season - if memory serves correct, Rod Hood was playing nickel and the team benched Michael Lewis for Sean Considine to play as a hybrid safety/linebacker. They kept the passing game "contained," but only because the running game decimated them and the Eagles were dominated run-blocking-wise by the Colts.

I'd be more interested to see Dallas run it, given their stronger front seven, if/when they actually get a legit free safety who can make plays for his own team.

Yeah, the Eagles had trouble stopping the run all season. That game was them at their worst. I think its not necessarily because of the scheme, but they have a small front 4, no true nose tackle in their scheme, an aging Trotter who's getting slower and slower, and mediocre OLBs who struggled keeping their gap assignment against the run.

Dallas could run it beautifully if they had a Reggie Nelson type of player. They might run some variations of it with Wade at the helm. He comes from a 46 background, its not out of the question to see him run some of it.

They ran it last year, but they didn't have as much success as they hoped for. Thats b/c their safety situation was so atrocious last year, they relied on Roy Williams to be the lone deep safety, which is basically having no safety at all.

diabsoule
07-22-2007, 08:43 PM
Very interesting write-up. I've been toying with the idea of how to beat the spread offense and this Penny formation sounds good but the problem is finding an elite man CB. I wonder how a SS/LB type player would do as the SAM lining up against the TE.

etk
07-22-2007, 09:46 PM
This just makes me really, really excited to see what the Jaguars are going to be able to do with Reggie Nelson.

With his football intelligence concerns a Cover 1 would be ideal because all he has to do is stay deep and fly to the ball in the air.

etk
07-22-2007, 09:50 PM
Very interesting write-up. I've been toying with the idea of how to beat the spread offense and this Penny formation sounds good but the problem is finding an elite man CB. I wonder how a SS/LB type player would do as the SAM lining up against the TE.

Having a hybrid LB/S would be ideal. Thomas Davis, Darnell Bing, etc. You not only need speed and coverage ability to play man against the elite TEs but the speed of a hybrid helps in stopping the cut-backs and shifty style of a spread ace backfield runner.

TheChampIsHere
07-22-2007, 10:37 PM
Well if you look at some of the SS out there today...guys like Whittner and Huff...Theres no need to sub out the SS if you have a SS who can play the run and also has CB skills. I think we'll see more and more of this type of player.

familyguy555
07-22-2007, 10:37 PM
So this D could work very well against a team like the Chargers?

Nice post BTW

nfrillman
07-23-2007, 03:29 AM
If I am understanding this correctly, the defense would have a base 4-3 or 3-4 D-line and LB arrangement, top 2 corners on wide outs, FS doing whatever the play may call for, and SS/NCB on the slot/TE. Running this formation too much could create some problems though. If the defense were truly running this play then the FS and SS/NCB would have to be switching places on the field from play to play so the SS/NCB could be on the same side of the field as the TE/slot WR. This would obviously give away what the defense was doing because there is no other reason for the SS/NCB and FS to be switching places on the field. On top of that, the FS would have to know what he has to do when lined up on different sides of the field, which could cause some confusion. Another problem would be the quick slant or just immediate pass to the slot WR or split TE. There would be no one over the top of them when the ball is snapped because the SS/NCB that is covering them is lining up 15 yards up field in the middle of the field. There is not really a way to counter act this move either because if the defense decides to line up the SS/NCB over the TE/slot, then the defense has just become a 4-3-3-1 and it would be plainly obvious. Another issue I see with this scheme would be that if the offense were to call a play where both wide WR's went deep there is guaranteed to be a 1 on 1 match up for whichever WR the FS does not help on. Most offenses will gladly take a 1 on 1 match up deep down field. I could see this being used in a very limited capacity or possibly having two defensive plays called, one for if the TE/slot is lined up on the same side of the field as the SS/NCB (using the penny), and another play that is not using that scheme if the TE/slot is lined up on the opposite side of the field as the SS/NCB.

Moses
07-23-2007, 07:57 AM
I can see it being used occasionally but I doubt it would ever be anything more than something to confuse the offence now and then.

Here's why:

First of all, many teams have a safety who can man up like a cornerback. Therefore, it's pointless to sub out a safety for a cornerback when the safety has equal or better cover skills than your nickelback.

From a pure schematic standpoint, I don't see the penny being effective very often. The scheme always leaves at least one receiver in single-man coverage. In today's NFL, that is a disaster waiting to happen. I don't care how good your CBs are, chances are a receiver will beat a CB in man-coverage more times than not. Plus, with only one safety the deep coverage would be extremely scarce and would result in a lot of homeruns. As soon as teams saw this formation they would air it out.

Iamcanadian
07-23-2007, 08:39 AM
I think this is just a wrinkle defense that you put in to confuse QB's and DC's. Your never going to see it used as a main defense system. It can help you against some spread offenses if you run a standard 4-3 or a 3-4 but if used extensively would expose the defense to a running attack. Anybody who thinks a CB can tackle like a SS or even a FS is way off the mark.
The Cover 2 defense is perferred as an option for defending spread offenses and more and more teams have incorporated some elements of it. However, pro teams are always looking for ways to confuse offensive schemes and your constantly going to see variations on every defense just to confuse opponents, that doesn't mean they are suddenly going to become a major defense in the NFL.
Dallas under Parcells ran a 3-4 and the penny defense is just something he threw out there to confuse opponents. It never was used extensively and I doubt it ever will.

volman88
07-23-2007, 01:08 PM
So basically this is like putting a michael boulware(a SS that played linebacker in college) in, in the spot of the SAM linebacker?

Shiver
07-23-2007, 01:13 PM
The NFL is a league predicated on trends. In the last ten years the NFL has seen a proliferation when it comes to pass catching, vertical threat, tight ends. In the past three drafts you can see that teams have responded to that trend by putting a higher priority on versatile safeties. Michael Huff comes to mind immediately. He has the coverage skills of a corner, but plays in the safety position.

Ward
07-23-2007, 03:18 PM
The beefy "strong" safety is on it's way out, which is ironic that Zimmer has been the biggest user of this package thus far. Another in a long line of great posts from BBD.

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 05:43 PM
The NFL is a league predicated on trends. In the last ten years the NFL has seen a proliferation when it comes to pass catching, vertical threat, tight ends. In the past three drafts you can see that teams have responded to that trend by putting a higher priority on versatile safeties. Michael Huff comes to mind immediately. He has the coverage skills of a corner, but plays in the safety position.

Yes, the evolution will lead to more prolific SS in the NFL. Thats a slow process however. We saw 2 of them the past 2 years, both were top 8 draft picks, so guys that possess that ability aren't found easily. I think this defense provides an alternative to teams who do not have that kind of playmaker SS and can be used situationally with success if the other pieces are in place.

If you have that coveted SS however, youre golden. Theres no need to run this package.

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 05:45 PM
If I am understanding this correctly, the defense would have a base 4-3 or 3-4 D-line and LB arrangement, top 2 corners on wide outs, FS doing whatever the play may call for, and SS/NCB on the slot/TE. Running this formation too much could create some problems though. If the defense were truly running this play then the FS and SS/NCB would have to be switching places on the field from play to play so the SS/NCB could be on the same side of the field as the TE/slot WR. This would obviously give away what the defense was doing because there is no other reason for the SS/NCB and FS to be switching places on the field. On top of that, the FS would have to know what he has to do when lined up on different sides of the field, which could cause some confusion. Another problem would be the quick slant or just immediate pass to the slot WR or split TE. There would be no one over the top of them when the ball is snapped because the SS/NCB that is covering them is lining up 15 yards up field in the middle of the field. There is not really a way to counter act this move either because if the defense decides to line up the SS/NCB over the TE/slot, then the defense has just become a 4-3-3-1 and it would be plainly obvious. Another issue I see with this scheme would be that if the offense were to call a play where both wide WR's went deep there is guaranteed to be a 1 on 1 match up for whichever WR the FS does not help on. Most offenses will gladly take a 1 on 1 match up deep down field. I could see this being used in a very limited capacity or possibly having two defensive plays called, one for if the TE/slot is lined up on the same side of the field as the SS/NCB (using the penny), and another play that is not using that scheme if the TE/slot is lined up on the opposite side of the field as the SS/NCB.

This defensive package can be more than just one play however. It can be a great way to disguise zones, it can be used in correlation with the absolute blitz technique, etc. I don't think that running this set is a dead giveaway of what the defense will do. Theres plenty of plays to call out of this set, and plenty of ways to disguise it.

BamaFalcon59
07-23-2007, 05:46 PM
Very good for teams with aging SS. Like Lawyer Milloy, Rodney Harrison, etc..

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 05:47 PM
I can see it being used occasionally but I doubt it would ever be anything more than something to confuse the offence now and then.

Here's why:

First of all, many teams have a safety who can man up like a cornerback. Therefore, it's pointless to sub out a safety for a cornerback when the safety has equal or better cover skills than your nickelback.

From a pure schematic standpoint, I don't see the penny being effective very often. The scheme always leaves at least one receiver in single-man coverage. In today's NFL, that is a disaster waiting to happen. I don't care how good your CBs are, chances are a receiver will beat a CB in man-coverage more times than not. Plus, with only one safety the deep coverage would be extremely scarce and would result in a lot of homeruns. As soon as teams saw this formation they would air it out.

Of course, its absolutely critical to have a shutdown corner to make this scheme work. I think we're slowly seeing the shutdown corner come back to the NFL. It required a couple of years of adjustment, but we're seeing it come back. No matter what scheme you run, there will be someone in man coverage with no safety help, unless theres a 2 deep safety shell. I don't think that automatically leads to the offense scoring points. Its been done before and has succeeded. Youre forgetting how blitzing extra men up front forces these deep routes to become abandoned. Thats the whole reason why the Bears 46 in the 80s were so dominant at one point. Everyone ran deep route offenses and their blitz and man coverages prevented them from ever developing. Sometimes pressure busts pipes.

bigbluedefense
07-25-2007, 01:02 PM
I just realized, and I have no idea why I didn't realize this earlier, but the Eagles 46 under Johnson actually is very similar to this base. Any Eagles fans want to shed some light on any similarities and differences? Id like to know :)

BufFan71
07-25-2007, 01:22 PM
the bills drafted Donte Whitner...b/c he is a SS who has the skillset for CB...much like Huff

etk
07-25-2007, 02:34 PM
the bills drafted Donte Whitner...b/c he is a SS who has the skillset for CB...much like Huff

But Huff doesn't play SS...

Do you mean Michael Griffin?

Moses
07-25-2007, 02:45 PM
But Huff doesn't play SS...

Do you mean Michael Griffin?

Huff plays SS...

etk
07-25-2007, 03:03 PM
Huff plays SS...

That's odd, I always thought he was better suited at FS and Schweigert at SS. I guess I should stop making those all-rookie teams on Madden if they put the players at the wrong positions.

Iamcanadian
07-26-2007, 08:56 AM
Of course, its absolutely critical to have a shutdown corner to make this scheme work. I think we're slowly seeing the shutdown corner come back to the NFL. It required a couple of years of adjustment, but we're seeing it come back. No matter what scheme you run, there will be someone in man coverage with no safety help, unless theres a 2 deep safety shell. I don't think that automatically leads to the offense scoring points. Its been done before and has succeeded. Youre forgetting how blitzing extra men up front forces these deep routes to become abandoned. Thats the whole reason why the Bears 46 in the 80s were so dominant at one point. Everyone ran deep route offenses and their blitz and man coverages prevented them from ever developing. Sometimes pressure busts pipes.

Huh, the shutdown CB has always been in demand in the NFL. The only defense which doesn't require shutdown CB's is the Tampa 2 which relies almost completely on zone coverage. The Tampa 2 defense rarely blitzes. Teams running a standard 4-3 or a 3-4 have always been on the lookout for a shutdown CB. Their importance in the NFL has never diminished.

Billingsley26
07-26-2007, 10:31 AM
A couple points here.

1. As much as you will say that you need good DB's to play the run in this defense, you also need a pretty good front 7 to stop the run because after all, once they break through the line you got several CB behind you, not SS anymore. I think you would need gap plugging DL, playing a gap control defense followed by the LB behind. Playing the gap control, allows the defense to hold down the run for a certain time and if they need help a decent CB will come up. Thats how I feel reagrding this defense and playing the run. One point of having the SS behind there is for run support, and with the bigger body they can do it better than a CB. So like I said, control the gaps, and limit the inside run, and try to force them to the outside where more help is. Essentially, you will come out with 3 CB who would be in cover 0, thus forcing the RB to the outsdie would help because there is help out there.

Also, I dont like taking the SS out for a CB, but I do understand why you would say that for this defense. Personally, I just feel safer with a SS behind my defense, he is a better tackler, better reader, and althogh may not be as good in man coverage, hes still good enough in zone. Depends on what you prefer.

etk
07-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Huh, the shutdown CB has always been in demand in the NFL. The only defense which doesn't require shutdown CB's is the Tampa 2 which relies almost completely on zone coverage. The Tampa 2 defense rarely blitzes. Teams running a standard 4-3 or a 3-4 have always been on the lookout for a shutdown CB. Their importance in the NFL has never diminished.

Ronde Barber blitzes more than probably any CB in the league.

etk
07-26-2007, 04:19 PM
A couple points here.

1. As much as you will say that you need good DB's to play the run in this defense, you also need a pretty good front 7 to stop the run because after all, once they break through the line you got several CB behind you, not SS anymore. I think you would need gap plugging DL, playing a gap control defense followed by the LB behind. Playing the gap control, allows the defense to hold down the run for a certain time and if they need help a decent CB will come up. Thats how I feel reagrding this defense and playing the run. One point of having the SS behind there is for run support, and with the bigger body they can do it better than a CB. So like I said, control the gaps, and limit the inside run, and try to force them to the outside where more help is. Essentially, you will come out with 3 CB who would be in cover 0, thus forcing the RB to the outsdie would help because there is help out there.



The point of a gap control defense is to have quick linemen who can beat the offensive line to the gap. Gap plugging DLinemen are used in defenses where they just attack the man in front of them and hold up two gaps, allowing the LBs to flow. I'm not sure which one you're using as an example.

Billingsley26
07-26-2007, 04:33 PM
The point of a gap control defense is to have quick linemen who can beat the offensive line to the gap. Gap plugging DLinemen are used in defenses where they just attack the man in front of them and hold up two gaps, allowing the LBs to flow. I'm not sure which one you're using as an example.

I was saying a gap control defense. What I meant by gap plugging DL, I should've said defenders who control the gaps.

cardsalltheway
07-26-2007, 04:35 PM
Huh, the shutdown CB has always been in demand in the NFL. The only defense which doesn't require shutdown CB's is the Tampa 2 which relies almost completely on zone coverage. The Tampa 2 defense rarely blitzes. Teams running a standard 4-3 or a 3-4 have always been on the lookout for a shutdown CB. Their importance in the NFL has never diminished.

I don't think he's saying that the demand for one is coming back, rather that the ability for players to become one is.

bigbluedefense
07-27-2007, 11:13 AM
I don't think he's saying that the demand for one is coming back, rather that the ability for players to become one is.

Yup, exactly.

bigbluedefense
07-27-2007, 11:14 AM
A couple points here.

1. As much as you will say that you need good DB's to play the run in this defense, you also need a pretty good front 7 to stop the run because after all, once they break through the line you got several CB behind you, not SS anymore. I think you would need gap plugging DL, playing a gap control defense followed by the LB behind. Playing the gap control, allows the defense to hold down the run for a certain time and if they need help a decent CB will come up. Thats how I feel reagrding this defense and playing the run. One point of having the SS behind there is for run support, and with the bigger body they can do it better than a CB. So like I said, control the gaps, and limit the inside run, and try to force them to the outside where more help is. Essentially, you will come out with 3 CB who would be in cover 0, thus forcing the RB to the outsdie would help because there is help out there.

Also, I dont like taking the SS out for a CB, but I do understand why you would say that for this defense. Personally, I just feel safer with a SS behind my defense, he is a better tackler, better reader, and althogh may not be as good in man coverage, hes still good enough in zone. Depends on what you prefer.

Regardless of what scheme you run, youre dead in the water if your front 7 can't stop the run. Thats a must for any scheme. Thicker front 7s, or front 7s that have a Jacksonville like duo at DT for example are better running this scheme because they have an easier time clogging run lanes at the point of attack.

etk
07-27-2007, 12:05 PM
Regardless of what scheme you run, youre dead in the water if your front 7 can't stop the run. Thats a must for any scheme. Thicker front 7s, or front 7s that have a Jacksonville like duo at DT for example are better running this scheme because they have an easier time clogging run lanes at the point of attack.

I prefer quickness/power combinations like Kevin & Pat Williams over a clogging duo. One can clog the middle while the other plays his gap and shoots it on the snap. It also helps for passing situations because the big guy eats up two inside blockers while the quicker lineman can do stunts to throw off the protection scheme. Man, I just realized how badly I want Kevin Williams on the Bucs...

bigbluedefense
07-27-2007, 12:09 PM
I prefer quickness/power combinations like Kevin & Pat Williams over a clogging duo. One can clog the middle while the other plays his gap and shoots it on the snap. It also helps for passing situations because the big guy eats up two inside blockers while the quicker lineman can do stunts to throw off the protection scheme. Man, I just realized how badly I want Kevin Williams on the Bucs...

For me, it really depends on the personnell around them and the scheme. Kevin Williams is like both in one, he can clog and penetrate, so Id love to have him on my team regardless of what 4-3 front you run.

If youre running Cover 2 (tampa 2) you have to have a penetrating UT. No question about it.

Im curious to see Sapp this year. He's like 280 now right? He looks so weird in his new frame.

etk
07-27-2007, 12:12 PM
For me, it really depends on the personnell around them and the scheme. Kevin Williams is like both in one, he can clog and penetrate, so Id love to have him on my team regardless of what 4-3 front you run.

If youre running Cover 2 (tampa 2) you have to have a penetrating UT. No question about it.

Im curious to see Sapp this year. He's like 280 now right? He looks so weird in his new frame.

He won't be lightning-quick or anything, but he can probably gain a little more explosiveness despite his age. He will always have the pass rushing savvy which is underrated for a DT because they have limited options in their rush moves. "Awareness" is crucial for a pass rushing UT, Sapp just gets it.

fenikz
07-28-2007, 04:21 AM
this is kinda off topic but not really, the cardinals instead of a regular nickel use 3 safeties what kinda D is this?

here is a example

FS SS FS
LB LB
CB DE DT DT DE CB

Billingsley26
07-28-2007, 12:03 PM
this is kinda off topic but not really, the cardinals instead of a regular nickel use 3 safeties what kinda D is this?

here is a example

FS SS FS
LB LB
CB DE DT DT DE CB

To me that looks like a nickel only difference is instead of another CB you put another safety in.

JT Jag
07-28-2007, 12:26 PM
So basically this is like putting a michael boulware(a SS that played linebacker in college) in, in the spot of the SAM linebacker?No... from what I read it's more like putting in Dominique Foxworth to replace John Lynch.

JT Jag
07-28-2007, 12:28 PM
this is kinda off topic but not really, the cardinals instead of a regular nickel use 3 safeties what kinda D is this?

here is a example

FS SS FS
LB LB
CB DE DT DT DE CBTo me that looks like a nickel only difference is instead of another CB you put another safety in.It's called a "heavy nickel" and it's used a lot in college. One variation of it, the 3-3-5 with 3 safeties, is West Virginia's primary defensive set.

The Unseen
07-28-2007, 12:52 PM
I prefer quickness/power combinations like Kevin & Pat Williams over a clogging duo. One can clog the middle while the other plays his gap and shoots it on the snap. It also helps for passing situations because the big guy eats up two inside blockers while the quicker lineman can do stunts to throw off the protection scheme. Man, I just realized how badly I want Kevin Williams on the Bucs...

When Marcus Stroud isn't hobbled by injuries (as he has been lately), he is the quickness to John Henderson's power.

Speaking of Henderson's power, either Jack Del Rio or Mike Smith (defensive coordinator) said that Henderson sometimes plays THREE gap. Not one, not two, but three. That's some muscle.

Staubach12
07-28-2007, 02:02 PM
If I were a coach, I would run the penny in a situation when I would call a cover 3, and have a good slot guy that my SS may have trouble containing off the line, because he would come up. That sounds like the most likely use of it, which isn't very very often. It's an occasional thing for me.

etk
07-28-2007, 07:41 PM
When Marcus Stroud isn't hobbled by injuries (as he has been lately), he is the quickness to John Henderson's power.

Speaking of Henderson's power, either Jack Del Rio or Mike Smith (defensive coordinator) said that Henderson sometimes plays THREE gap. Not one, not two, but three. That's some muscle.

That is incredible. I'm at a loss of words. I can't imagine being a linebacker on that team and hearing the coach say that during install....

Del Rio: Alright guys here's our new defense this week. Henderson! You're in a hamburger technique...

Henderson: Coach, WTF is that!?!?

Del Rio: Just take up all the space you can, 3 gaps. Eat the blockers like you eat a hamburger.

Henderson: Okay coach, you'll have to slap me three times before the game then.

bigbluedefense
07-29-2007, 01:07 PM
this is kinda off topic but not really, the cardinals instead of a regular nickel use 3 safeties what kinda D is this?

here is a example

FS SS FS
LB LB
CB DE DT DT DE CB

From viewing that formation, Im guessing they ran alot of Cover 2 out of this set? Its doable because Adrian Wilson is such a manimal, he can definately play that position.

fenikz
07-29-2007, 02:39 PM
From viewing that formation, Im guessing they ran alot of Cover 2 out of this set? Its doable because Adrian Wilson is such a manimal, he can definately play that position.

yep and our corners are a good fit for the cover 2 as well, good tacklers who push receivers around(they just cant cover anyone)

The Unseen
07-29-2007, 03:32 PM
That is incredible. I'm at a loss of words. I can't imagine being a linebacker on that team and hearing the coach say that during install....

Del Rio: Alright guys here's our new defense this week. Henderson! You're in a hamburger technique...

Henderson: Coach, WTF is that!?!?

Del Rio: Just take up all the space you can, 3 gaps. Eat the blockers like you eat a hamburger.

Henderson: Okay coach, you'll have to slap me three times before the game then.

lol.

From what I understand, it may not necessarily be a called play. Henderson may start out playing one-gap. As the play progresses, he has the strength and quickness to jump into the other gap to stop the runner. Which means he has to be strong enough to push aside the blocker in the way of the third gap, who already probably has an angular advantage on him.

So, yeah...

Ward
07-29-2007, 03:57 PM
this is kinda off topic but not really, the cardinals instead of a regular nickel use 3 safeties what kinda D is this?

here is a example

FS SS FS
LB LB
CB DE DT DT DE CB


It's a 4-2-5. David Bailiff, HC of Rice uses it in his defenses. The extra safety is a LB/S hybrid who has a lot of freedom. We were able to run that successfully because of an excellent D-line and at least one stud LB. At Texas State the position was called Catback, but that probably won't be the title at Rice.

JT Jag
07-30-2007, 04:10 PM
It's a 4-2-5. David Bailiff, HC of Rice uses it in his defenses. The extra safety is a LB/S hybrid who has a lot of freedom. We were able to run that successfully because of an excellent D-line and at least one stud LB. At Texas State the position was called Catback, but that probably won't be the title at Rice.New Mexico State does it too. The extra safety plays the "Lobo" position there, a LB/S fusion, and it's the position Brian Urlacher and Quincy Black played coming out.

Ward
07-31-2007, 03:22 AM
New Mexico State does it too. The extra safety plays the "Lobo" position there, a LB/S fusion, and it's the position Brian Urlacher and Quincy Black played coming out.

I imagine it was successful at NMSU for the opposite reason it was successful at TSU. You guys had studs at that special Lobo/Catback/Rover position. We actually didn't have anyone that special. However, we had a damn good D-line and LBs. Decent secondary, probably top 3 in the Southland, but nothing amazing. So that D-Line and LBs made a lot of room for a free roaming S/LB tweener to do some serious damage, making decisions on the fly.

Im_a_Romosexual
07-31-2007, 04:46 AM
New Mexico State does it too. The extra safety plays the "Lobo" position there, a LB/S fusion, and it's the position Brian Urlacher and Quincy Black played coming out.

New Mexico runs that FYI