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hcbrad08
07-23-2007, 10:31 AM
I was looking at the Jets depth chart and I didn't see superstars but I ddin't see glaring holes at any position... I saw a lot of depth and I was just wondering when the 2008 draft roles around what positions do you think the Jets will target?....

Based on what I see now on our roster and who is coming out I think we'll target...

-OT (There is a strong class of OT next year and they're all massive...I know we drafted Jacob Bender and he could be the future at RT but he may move inside to G and take Pete Kendall's place and add a lot of size should Adrien Clarke not work at LG...however if Bender is Clement's successor then I would say we could go OG as I have a few doubts about Adrien Clarke and Wade Smith being as effective and good as Kendall)

-DL: (The Jets signed a lot of DE's and tried to plug the 3-4 depth gaps and I loved it. But unless Michael Haynes works out really well the Jets should start looking for Shaun Ellis' replacement he's 30 and while Coleman looks good in camp if he doesn't work out we really have a problem...Also, if D-Rob doesn't adjust better to the 34 and start eating up space better we might spend two picks on the DL, NT (6'2'' 325+) & DE (6'4'' 290))

-WR (I think after this season LC has at least one more season, but he may pack it in...that's the only reason I bring this up. I think if he's not gone before this season starts McCareins will definitely be gone after next year I'd just like another playmaker besides JC. Maybe Pellot-Rosa or Stuckey can turn into our star but I think if LC and McCareins are gone after this season you have to bring in more WR to bring a spark to the offense: bc although they show a lot of promise Stuckey and Pellot-Rosa are low risk high reward guys and as of now I find the WR battles to be interesting, perhaps really beneficial and great for the team but I think this position is one of the biggest ? for the Jets)

Let me know what positions you think we;ll have to bolster and if you wanna go crazy you can look up the first group of prospects Kiper has them up on ESPN...

Don;t post stuff like... it's too early to do this I'm just trying to keep the forum goin if you think it's too early and don't have any imagination or you just hate life in general and don't like the topic then DON'T POST.

I think it's fun to look ahead and then look back and see how wrong we all were

derza222
07-23-2007, 12:29 PM
Great idea for a thread, I'd love to see the NYJ forum get moving again. I thought all of your points were great and really well argued. We've got a solid team with no real superstars, but no large holes either.

The offensive line could definitely use upgrades at the G/RT spots (though I have heard good things about Clarke, we'll see), and what position we go after really depends on what position they're trying to groom Bender at. I say this is the biggest hole, especially because depth never hurts.

The D-line also has some big questions, I think we could use a bigger NT unless Robertson improves this year (which isn't completely out of the question) and a DE if nobody really steps up across from Ellis, (although I think Haynes or Coleman will). Probably the next biggest hole, also because, like the OL, depth never hurts.

I also wouldn't rule out using a pick on a rush OLB depending on how we do rushing the passer, and if we can actually generate a pass rush with our personnel or if we have to use blitz packages. How big of a need this is largely depends on our performance next year, a wild card if you will.

The WR spot also could possibly use an upgrade. Us using a pick on that spot probably largely depends on the development of guys like Brad Smith and Pellot-Rosa, both of whom have the physical abilities to be outside, number one type guys. Stuckey I believe will be more of a slot WR, although a very talented one at that. If Cotchery somehow develops into a #1 (which I don't see happening, he's a #2 through and through IMO) I could see Stuckey being a #2 and this isn't a need. Otherwise Smith or Pellot-Rosa could develop into that lead guy. But if not, we have a need for a #1 WR in the future as Coles has said he won't be around much longer. If addressed through the draft, though, it makes it difficult to pick a guy because you don't only need a WR but the kind of guy with the ability to be a #1.

Finally, the only other thing you didn't mention is the TE spot, where if Baker doesn't play well this year we have nobody else. Not that I really expect it to happen, but who knows, it's more likely than other positions. Same with our safety play next to Kerry Rhodes.

Obviously there's also a chance that something random happens like Thomas Jones busting or Pennington ending his career with another shoulder injury, but barring that kind of stuff happening I think these are what we're going to be looking at as needs.

HerthaFootballFan
07-23-2007, 03:23 PM
I agree that a guy to go after the QB would be a good fight for this team and also maybe someone who plays defensive back? I know Revis was a top pick this year but All I have read of Dyson he seems to small to be a top caliber starter.

ncstateviking
07-23-2007, 03:53 PM
hmm...good thread.

i would like to see us go after a pass rush OLB with our first pick if there is a premier one available. if there isnt i would like us to select another corner. if you can get two really good or great corners on the same defense we will never be too far from the lead which is good in the offense we have.

in rnds 2-3 i would like to look offensive line. possibly using both rnds on an Olineman.

in rnd 4 i wouldnt mind seeing whatever DLineman with the physical tools falls. whether we need to coach him up or whatever is fine. i want someone with raw ability.

derza222
07-23-2007, 04:30 PM
IMO Dyson is fine starting, he's not very big but was by far the best corner on the team last year. Right now he's the team's number one corner, and even if Revis overtakes him for that he's a solid #2, I'm very comfortable having him starting and really don't see any reason to go corner again this year, especially because we play so much zone. If we take a corner I'd want a guy in the second or third round, if we're taking a guy in the first he'd better be a damn good #2 or a #1, and I really would rather not go in that direction that early. Plus we don't need a #1 as Revis is our future #1. I'd look for a #2 guy later day one. And that's if we do at all, IMO Dyson is fine.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
07-24-2007, 10:45 PM
Its basically as u guys have said. We need someone to step up or start looking for a new #1 WR. now u could put it off for another season also, but if someone is a steal u gotta take them. Who are the big time WR coming out next season?

We could use a OLB, as i am not sold on Hobson. He's serviceable, but a pass rusher is always something valuable to have, especially in a 3-4.

DL that better fit the scheme. We have some, and its getting better depth wise, but if Robertson doesn't get it done (although i like him and think he was put in a bad position and is making the best of it by doing a solid job), we need to realize this isn't the defensive scheme for him and let him go somewhere else and get someone new.

i have faith in the oline, but a mean run blocker would be nice.
i also believe that Miller can turn it around at CB, but i might just be blinded by his ability and not realizing whats in his head.

derza222
07-25-2007, 11:11 AM
Even assuming Miller won't turn it around at CB, I don't see what the major problem with the position is. Dyson is certainly starting material, and Revis was selected to develop into our #1 corner. In that case, Dyson would be the #2 corner, where he is perfectly fine. He did a good job as our #1 all of last year, we only had problems at the other starting spot. And we have plenty of guys that can play nickel and dime. Corner won't be addressed unless we want to upgrade the nickel slot in the third or fourth round IMO.

ncstateviking
07-25-2007, 03:50 PM
if i dont like what i see from clemens this year...which it sounds like is a strong possibilty...

i wouldnt mind taking whichever of the top QBs make the first rnd fall.

derza222
07-25-2007, 04:05 PM
Quite possible, but it's not even definite that we see him at all this year. It's more of a wait and see scenario. Hopefully Pennington stays healthy all year and we don't really have to worry about it.

ncstateviking
07-25-2007, 07:05 PM
i meant more as far as in camp and pre season. if someone doesnt look competent in preseason i dont hold alot of hope for reg. season. i hope penny is our starter another 3 years.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
07-25-2007, 11:14 PM
u'd be that quick to jump the ship on clemens? Pennington should be the expected starter for a little while now and since its not a major area of concern yet i'm not sure we have to use another 2nd rounder on the position unless there is someone we can't pass up

ncstateviking
07-26-2007, 09:06 AM
i have not been as high on clemens as everyone else has been since we took him. even before last year when people were wanting him to take over as a starter before the season started...i was always backing penny. with the good job we are doing building a team...i feel like clemens will hold us back if he has to be the man. and i dont think he will progress past that. if he can come out and light things us in the preseason, i will maybe feel otherwise. but if he struggles it will be simply confirming what i already believe.

derza222
07-26-2007, 09:44 AM
Who knows, maybe he isn't the guy? But if he doesn't light it up in preseason this year I doubt it will make management think he isn't the guy. Pennington hopefully will be around for a few more years, and if so we'll have plenty of time to see if Clemens develops. For now, Pennington is the guy and Clemens is the QB of the future and I don't think the team is going to write Clemens off after 2 seasons considering Pennington will be playing a few more years.

'cuse-213
07-26-2007, 06:24 PM
Tight End. Weve been itching to take one for a few years now and I think Baker will have another average season.

JETS5128
07-26-2007, 10:31 PM
Next years draft class is loaded with talent at the skill positions, and although none of those are really needs, i think they could all use upgrade. Mainly WR

hcbrad08
07-30-2007, 11:21 AM
I know specifics are kind of hard right now but lets say we end up in the bottom half of the draft again is there a chance that bsed on his production that Limas Sweed will be there after 20 or as of now is he a top 15? I love his size its something that would compliment Pennington well, but it seems like a dream I think he went back to be the number 1 reciever in the country. Who else do you guys like?

'cuse-213
07-30-2007, 01:39 PM
I personaly have a man crush on Jonathen Stewart. Ever since he came out of highschool. Thomas jones is getting kinda old, leon might never be a fulltime starter, and theres not much depth behind that.

ncstateviking
07-30-2007, 06:48 PM
to me, guys we may think are top 5 prospects right now are going to be 3rd rounders by the draft. i wont even begin to guess at individual players.

IBleedGreen18
08-09-2007, 11:46 PM
I think stuff like this is largely dependent on where we end up drafting and stuff like that, but at the same time I think you guys have hit on the main weaknesses on this team which will be probable positions that will be drafted.

Between the Oline and Dline I think is by far the weakest parts of our team. I would be shocked if the the majority of our early round picks don't weight more than 300lbs. DE, NT (maybe), RT, OG are all major areas of concern.

DE- Assuming Coleman wins the starting RDE spot (more than likely) then we will be starting 2 players who were prototypical 3-4 DEs 5-10 years ago. This meant being 6'3-6'5 285-295 lbs. Unfortunately todays prototypical 3-4 DE is much larger, 6'5-6'6 295-320 lbs, in order to effectively play against the larger Offensive linemen. I would say this is our biggest weakness, due to not commanding double teams at all, and not actively getting penetration. Though Coleman will be a big upgrade over Kimo so that will help. Looking at the model the pats have made, which we will likely follow, DE is a strong priority in the drafts (Seymour and Warren High first round picks). Dline is the most imortant part of a 3-4

NT- Robertson played well down the stretch this season, and if he has a strong season we could count this as a non-need. Though he is Very undersized for a 3-4 NT ( would prolly need another10-20 lbs to be a great size) Mangini has said he believes Robertson can reinvent the position, which could be the case. Having a smaller sized NT would make him less powerful against say the run but he would likely be able to get penetration better and could cause havok in pass rush situations. We'll see, but this could be a decently high priority(2-4 round pick), but it could also be a non-factor.

Oline- We need a RT and 2 OGs of better quality to be honest. I say that tentatively though since we will be returning all 5 starters from last season except perhaps Kendal(looking more likely that we will be missing him), but even so if we give moore and clement another year in the system they could suprise, so we'll see. I see whoever on the line has the weakest season could be looking for someother place to play and we could go after someone either in draft or FA. I cannot see us taking another first round Olineman with so many other areas that we need to improve, unless of course there is TREMENDOUS value where we are picking. I'd say more than likely a mid round pick will be used and/or a decent FA signing.

WR- Would be nice, but far from a necessity. J-Cotch is turning into a stud opposite Coles and will likely be able to take up the #1 spot when he hangs 'em up. We could go after an OK FA or use a midround pick for value on one, but I can't see us using a top pick on a skill position with so much of a need for meat on this team.

TE- If we are going after a skill position I think this is it. Baker is good, but not great. If value is there this could be a possibility next year, though I wouldn't bet on it.


Overall I would say that our biggest needs and the most important positions for our overall game would be the lines. I would in fact be in shock if our first and probably second round pick next year didn't weigh 300+ pounds. We need to adapt to todays NFL, and our lineman really are undersized. I can see Mangini wanting to use an undersized NT to get pressure, but I think that would be infinitely easier with big powerful ends. Not to say we are or should be like the pats, but mangini did work overthere so it would be safe to say they could share some ideals. In Bellichecks years there all 3 Dlineman were high first round picks. This shows the importance of the position and how much easier it makes it for the LB corp. OLBs need to get pressure, but if the Oline is concerned with protecting from the dline, then blitzing OLBs will def wreck more havok.

ncstateviking
08-10-2007, 12:09 AM
cotchery isnt a number one though. people mistake great number 2s for #1s all the time. he would struggle in the #1 role.

TimD
08-12-2007, 10:13 PM
Pellot-Rosa got cut....

The Great Jonathan Vilma
08-12-2007, 10:41 PM
cotchery isnt a number one though. people mistake great number 2s for #1s all the time. he would struggle in the #1 role.

i would agree with that statement. he might develop ala Reggie Wayne, but i don't think so. he's a very good #2, but i don't see him as a #1 anytime soon if ever

BroadwayJoe10
08-13-2007, 11:07 AM
anyway hear any news on thomas jones' injury?? apparantly its an ankle or calf. From what i have heard it didn't sound too serious, in that he walked off on his own power and was able to put weight on it as well as move it around. He was also not carted immediately to the locker room,which is always promising.
In other news, i heard that the jets and revis began talking again; they said they saw one of his agents, other than the one usually mentioned, exiting the jets facility. They were also reportedly meant to have a meeting yesterday. So hopefully, things will be heating up and we can get this guy into training camp quickly.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
08-13-2007, 11:54 AM
anyway hear any news on thomas jones' injury?? apparantly its an ankle or calf. From what i have heard it didn't sound too serious, in that he walked off on his own power and was able to put weight on it as well as move it around. He was also not carted immediately to the locker room,which is always promising.
In other news, i heard that the jets and revis began talking again; they said they saw one of his agents, other than the one usually mentioned, exiting the jets facility. They were also reportedly meant to have a meeting yesterday. So hopefully, things will be heating up and we can get this guy into training camp quickly.

I wouldn't be to worried about Jones' injury. especially this early in TC.

The Revis talks couldn't make me any happier. hopefully they go a little smoother this time around.

Crickett
08-25-2007, 03:32 AM
it's too early to do, naw, I'm just kidding. But what I would like to see the Jets draft is

A. A big 3-4 run stuffing NT who is more than a workout warrior with a funny name.
B. At least one guard, possibly two.
C. A right tackle (if Bender doesn't look like he is starting material).

And now that I've said that, I'm sure they won't draft any of those day one next year.

SeanTaylorRIP
08-25-2007, 04:06 PM
I can see Adarius Bowman as a Jet.

Gridiron
08-27-2007, 08:36 AM
I think it's safe to say our biggest needs are as follows:

LG
NT
RT
OLB

If all of these positions can somehow upgrade by the regular season, we'll continue to be a good team. If we have to wait until next year to address them, we're in trouble.

TimD
08-27-2007, 11:21 AM
we need to take a quality TE too...

The Great Jonathan Vilma
08-27-2007, 12:22 PM
i think there are a few positions that are more important than upgrading TE at this point. it would be nice if Baker had a good year.....

TimD
08-27-2007, 03:38 PM
it would cause i like him... i heard sean ryan is having a great camp

JETS5128
08-27-2007, 09:03 PM
it would cause i like him... i heard sean ryan is having a great camp

I hate Sean Ryan.

Gridiron
09-09-2007, 04:21 PM
NT
LG
DE
RG
RT
CB

We still desperately need help at all of these positions.

It's unfortunate that we'll probably be picking in the top-15 and there aren't many players that fit those needs.

TimD
09-09-2007, 05:39 PM
NT
LG
DE
RG
RT
CB

We still desperately need help at all of these positions.

It's unfortunate that we'll probably be picking in the top-15 and there aren't many players that fit those needs.

not RG....

hcbrad08
09-09-2007, 08:17 PM
If we get lucky.....and if we have or can get 2 2nd rounders.

1) Frank Okam-Texas: DE 6'5'' 320 (Fast enough to play END The Next Richard Seymore)

2a) B.J. Raji-Boston College: NT 6'1'' 330 (Do you need to ask why this is the pick)

2b) Barry Richardson-Clemson: RT 6'7'' 320 (Replaces Anthony Clement and sets more of a foundation)

3) Jordan Grimes-Purdue: LG 6'3'' 325 (Favorite activities:"Weightlifting" check the Purdue Website)

4) Jonathan Wilhite-Auburn: CB 5'11'' 185 (I saw him play the other night...unless that was someone else taking a beating from S. Fla,,decent value if 4th round...I'd prefer throwing money at a free agent next to Revis or trading someone on our team for a 1st or 2nd rounder and getting a 1-2 CB punch)

We had a lot wrong with us and this will change no doubt and ,maybe well get better throughout the sseason and maybe bender could play RT or LG effectively but right now the team looks like it just cant compete with bigger more physical elite teams (not even with smoke and mirrors.)

with that draft our OL would be
Brick
Grimes*
Mangold
Moore
Richardson*/Bender

DL
Okam*/Robertson (Im skeptical though bc hes too short for DE and would get engulfed by taller tackles)
Raji*
Coleman/Ellis

and if Dyson could stay healthy him at 2 and revis at 1 would be a good secondary i also take back what i said about miller (that hes a good num 3 cb) def not he cant even backpeddal. I just hope we can get someone to compliment revis bc he is a good corner and it was apparent the pats knew that bc they rarely threw his way (also that barret sucks) but he did make good open field tackles and proved he was the best cb we have today.

As of today i think thats a great draft. Whatever let me know if you agree or not.

BroadwayJoe10
09-09-2007, 09:59 PM
If we get lucky.....and if we have or can get 2 2nd rounders.

1) Frank Okam-Texas: DE 6'5'' 320 (Fast enough to play END The Next Richard Seymore)

2a) B.J. Raji-Boston College: NT 6'1'' 330 (Do you need to ask why this is the pick)

2b) Barry Richardson-Clemson: RT 6'7'' 320 (Replaces Anthony Clement and sets more of a foundation)

3) Jordan Grimes-Purdue: LG 6'3'' 325 (Favorite activities:"Weightlifting" check the Purdue Website)

4) Jonathan Wilhite-Auburn: CB 5'11'' 185 (I saw him play the other night...unless that was someone else taking a beating from S. Fla,,decent value if 4th round...I'd prefer throwing money at a free agent next to Revis or trading someone on our team for a 1st or 2nd rounder and getting a 1-2 CB punch)

We had a lot wrong with us and this will change no doubt and ,maybe well get better throughout the sseason and maybe bender could play RT or LG effectively but right now the team looks like it just cant compete with bigger more physical elite teams (not even with smoke and mirrors.)

with that draft our OL would be
Brick
Grimes*
Mangold
Moore
Richardson*/Bender

DL
Okam*/Robertson (Im skeptical though bc hes too short for DE and would get engulfed by taller tackles)
Raji*
Coleman/Ellis

and if Dyson could stay healthy him at 2 and revis at 1 would be a good secondary i also take back what i said about miller (that hes a good num 3 cb) def not he cant even backpeddal. I just hope we can get someone to compliment revis bc he is a good corner and it was apparent the pats knew that bc they rarely threw his way (also that barret sucks) but he did make good open field tackles and proved he was the best cb we have today.

As of today i think thats a great draft. Whatever let me know if you agree or not.


first off i love the pick of jordan grimes, absolute filth nasty gaurd. The one word i seem to keep running across that is most used to desribe him is just vicious, but in a good way; if that makes sense. From what i've read he isn't the top rated gaurd coming out, but top 3 overall; but as far as run blocking and overall nastiness, which i love to see in a lineman he is the clear cut favorite. I understand the need for a run stuffing end, but we put a fair amount of money into koleman and id like to see how he pans out for a few more games atleast. But, i would like to address the problem we have at stopping the run and creating a consistent pass rush. I think we need someone that can constantly tie up a tackle and a TE at the same time or hurry the QB ala shawne merriman; and vernon gholston comes to mind. I love this guy, and if he isn't on steroids (which if hes not than my sweet lord is he vascular) i would love to see him implanting tom brady into the ground.
And the BJ raji i would definately agree with ya, but i was reading in our local paper ( i go to school at northeastern which is right near BC) he is going to be academically inelligble for this semester and red shirted; from what i've read the school f'ed up or somethin along those lines. THis definately sucks, because I was looking forward to seeing how he handled this year under the spotlight.
Anyways, im sure i may be in the minority here hah but if we had a draft like this year and came away with grimes and gohlston and a couple other lower guys i would be fairly pleased. But, there is a whole lot of college football to be played as well as nfl so who knows what our needs will be and who could fill them. Basically i jsut want shawne merriman, i know hes a special player, so we may not find one in the draft, i just want someone to be disruptive like he is.

hcbrad08
09-09-2007, 11:38 PM
we needed a guy like raji next year....now im almost going to guarantee we have dewayne or a huge 37 year old keith traylor next year at nt and its going to be a shame bc mangini could probably turn us into an elite team with his 3-4 but the tools just aren't there...unless we make some moves...but if raji does come out we may get him at a discounted price in a lower round bc it seems as though he was a fault and being behind in work but so was BC...

The 21-year-old Raji, who played as a true freshman, fell behind academically last year, but after taking two courses this summer, Raji thought he had done enough to become eligible.

The school, however, had mistakenly counted a course that should not have gone toward his degree, and he wound up three credits shy of where he needed to be.cw0

Athletic director Gene DeFilippo said the miscounting of credits was only part of a long, complicated story, the rest of which he wouldnt go into.

Asked how much responsibility the school bore, DeFilippo said, Im not going to get into that. It is what it is. We gave it our best shot and it didnt work, and B.J.s going to come back and hes going to redshirt.

DeFilippo said Raji is allowed to practice this season but cant go on trips or be on the sideline for games.

B.J.s a great young guy, and hes going to make something positive out of this. I just know that, DeFilippo said.


Mangini and Tannenbaum always have taken exp[licit high character intelligent guys but have also been known (as people said when they were at the combine) that the jets were the most inquisitive and look for the whole story...so raji if he declares and shows up (he can still practice with BC mind you) the jets may just say WE NEED A NT and it wasnt entirely Rajis fault...then again Raji could go back to school....After a loss like today all I can and want to do is postulate about something good that can come in the future....

stillma7ic
09-10-2007, 01:15 AM
any good FA CB's next year because if not what do u guys think of getting someone like cason or brandon flowers afters seeing moss torch the jets.

Crickett
09-10-2007, 10:05 AM
any good FA CB's next year because if not what do u guys think of getting someone like cason or brandon flowers afters seeing moss torch the jets.

What about Revis? And Dyson? And Miller? And the lack of a pass rush?

To me, cornerback doesn't need more fixing. Simply put, if a quarterback has 90 seconds to throw the ball, the corners could be Champ Bailey and Ty Law, eventually the receivers are going to get open. Having said that, I'm sure they'll draft a cornerback.

hcbrad08
09-10-2007, 11:41 PM
I agree BUT
make a comment/suggestion...its easy to criticize hard to explain...why don't we need someone else? I think to play devils advocate Dyson has a bad injury history and is on the block, barrett might be a number 3 and miller fell twice while backpedalling the most fundamental mechanic of a cb sooo a second cb might be a need unless they improvve drastically. That said I think when dyson gets back him and revis will be ok but he needs to be healthy....
needs are fa AND OR draft (IN ORDER)
-NT (massive)
-LG (mauler fund. sound)
-DE (Converted DT 6'5'' 300)
-RT (Massive)
-CB (Good tackler/not necc big or fast as hell but good fundamentals)

gang_green03
09-11-2007, 02:42 PM
-We need a NT badly. Its the most critical position to our defense. We will never have a great defense without a great player eating up blocks in the middle.

-We also, desparately need a hybrid OLB. If we can't generate a pass rush without blitzing 2 or 3 guys all the advantages the 3-4 provides are negated.

-We need a mauler at RT. Our run-blocking is poor and we need to be able to better open up holes for our backs.

Those are our top 3 needs and they're dire ones at that. We could also use another mauler at OG but that's not nearly as important as the ones stated above. Every other need is secondary to those 3, IMO.

Bluedevil$
09-11-2007, 07:51 PM
I'd love a Wilfork-esque NT.

Could Okam play the position?

hcbrad08
09-12-2007, 12:36 AM
no OKam is 65 320 hes way moreof a DE in the 34 bc he is fast for his size. NTs are usually shorter with a better base and bigger more like 340 DE in the 34 are taller anywhere from 295 (Jarvis Green)-320 (Richard Seymore)

Bluedevil$
09-12-2007, 05:16 PM
no OKam is 65 320 hes way moreof a DE in the 34 bc he is fast for his size. NTs are usually shorter with a better base and bigger more like 340 DE in the 34 are taller anywhere from 295 (Jarvis Green)-320 (Richard Seymore)
Casey Hampton and Vince Wilfork are 325 lbs. Kelly Gregg is 310 lbs. It's not as much about weight as it is about the strength of a NT.

TimD
09-12-2007, 06:30 PM
Casey Hampton and Vince Wilfork are 325 lbs. Kelly Gregg is 310 lbs. It's not as much about weight as it is about the strength of a NT.

and balance... being low to the ground, having a good base, and being tough to move is what a quality NT is

hcbrad08
09-19-2007, 12:00 AM
Should the season not turn out what it was cracked up to be and if Okam continues to have a good season we may snag him. I like these positions as top priority...OG,OT,DL,CB

1)Frank Okam-DT/LE
2)Barry Richardson-RT
3)Jordan Grimes-LG
4)Dejuan Dribble-RCB
5)Chris Ellis-LOLB

PLEASE GOD LET THAT FALL TO US AND LET THEM ALL BE "THE NEXT GREAT" WHOEVER....Its painful to lose

BroadwayJoe10
09-19-2007, 03:56 PM
I love jordan grimes too and i have been ever since i was told he was the most aggressive and characterized as "nasty" by his O-line coach. Purdue has a tendency to produce very dainty type lineman, but in the last few years i can't remember the names but i remmeber the lineman being pretty big and aggressive. BUt as of now i've seen him projected as 3rd round or later. But i definately understand the need for an OG, its one of the things i definately want to see drafted. Also, i beleive Bender is being groomed to play RT, but i am not sure considering mangini has him play a bunch.

derza222
10-05-2007, 01:03 PM
I wanted to compile a list of prospects that I wouldn't mind seeing as Jets. Lots of them are guys that maybe aren't at positions of huge need, but would really solidify positions and we'd have to consider if they were the best players on the board. Didn't want to look too deep as the list would get too big, but here are some guys, by position, I think are worth looking at early:

DL:
Terrance Taylor, Michigan*-This guy is unbelievably strong, and isn't very tall meaning he could be a great nose in the 3-4. If we want to make this defense work we need an elite guy in the middle, and if he declares Taylor could be that guy.

B.J. Raji, Boston College- Not sure what happens with him, but he's huge and could definitely be a 3-4 nose tackle in the NFL. Seems to have some baggage so we may avoid him, but if he's around later on we may have to take a shot.

Dre Moore, Maryland- Could be a big riser, a great physical freak at 6-4, 312 and runs a sub 5 second forty. Could potentially put on some weight and be a 3-4 NT, and has the height and size to play 3-4 DE as well. Not in the first round range right now but I think he ends up there, and we will have to take a very, very long look at him.

Tyson Jackson, LSU*- A big end with some good pass-rushing ability that had a very good season last year on LSU's defense and is underachieving a tad this season. Probably doesn't come out, but if he does he's worth considering.


LB: (pretty much all of the linebackers are OLB's, there's a bunch of potential guys at the top here. depth is tremendous at this position if underclassmen come out.)

Vernon Gholston, Ohio State*- A big, strong guy that's a solid athlete and has some experience dropping back into coverage and is a good pass rusher. Would fill what many Jets fans perceive to be a big need for us.

Derrick Harvey, Florida*- Much quicker and more athletic than Gholston, with some great pass rushing ability as well.

Quentin Groves, Auburn- Great at getting after the passer and a very good athlete. Has some experience dropping back and is definitely a very good prospect for the OLB spot.

Shawn Crable, Michigan- Has experience dropping back into coverage and is a good pass rusher as well, probably more balanced than the rest of these guys. Has made some bonehead plays on the field but has freakish size and speed. Probably a better fit than most converted DE's for our defense playing across from Thomas because of his more extensive coverage experience.

George Selvie, USF*- A good athlete and great pass rusher that I believe leads the NCAA in sacks right now. Has the potential to be a top OLB prospect if he comes out. Now a redshirt soph.

Brian Cushing, USC*- Has a bunch of experience rushing the passer and dropping into coverage as he's an LB at USC. Like Crable, probably a better fit for our defense than the converted DE's.


CB:
Justin King, Penn State*- Could be a great corner across from Revis. Another very good starter would help our lack of a pass rush a tad.

Malcolm Jenkins, Ohio State*- Probably a better fit than King because Jenkins has better ball skills whereas King is more of a cover guy that doesn't have great ball skills. If teams avoid Revis, Jenkins could make them pay with some big plays. Same idea as King, another very good corner will help our lack of a pass rush.

Antoine Cason, Arizona- Again he has very good ball skills, though timed speed is a question. A great fit across from Revis IMO.


S:
Kenny Phillips, Miami*- Probably the only first round safety at this point, just a great overall safety that when placed next to Revis would make our secondary absolutely scary. If Eric Smith plays well in Coleman's place, however, this becomes one of the few positions on the team I don't see us going in no matter who's on the board.


OL:
Jake Long, Michigan- Almost a certainty that he'll be an ELITE right tackle if we stick him there, does some great things for us not only in the run game but the pass game as well. Considering he's being considered as an LT, he'd be an elite pass blocker on the right side and is an elite run blocker wherever he goes. Maybe you can argue the value for a RT isn't there, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing him in green and white.

Gosder Cherilus, Boston College- Not on Long's level, but Cherilus would give us a very, very good right tackle and again go a long way towards improving our offensive line. If we take Cherilus we're obviously down a bit farther than we would be if we're taking Long, but value is still a question if we grab him in the first.

Mike Oher, Ole Miss*- This guy is a great fit because he's versatile and could be a great fit for us. Some think his best spot is guard, where he would be elite, others think it's right tackle, where he could be elite as well. And there are those that believe he could be an elite left tackle. A lot of this depends on what he's perceived as, because unlike Long where most believe he could play left side but would be better served on the right side, it's up in the air with Oher and if he's viewed as an elite LT guy we probably gon't get him. Still an interesting guy to follow. Not sure if he'll declare though.


RB:
Darren McFadden, Arkansas*- You can't pass on the best player in the draft. McFadden has had great success at Arkansas splitting time with Felix Jones, a back who has some similarities to Leon Washington. If he's on the board, we have to consider him. He and Leon would be a fantastic combo for the future IMO. Doubt we go in that direction, but still possible.

Jonathan Stewart, Oregon*- Again, could be a great compliment to Leon. If he's the best player on the board, we have to consider him. If not, we probably look in a different direction.


WR:
Adarius Bowman, Oklahoma State- Big, strong wideout that gets yards after the catch and blocks well, the trademark of our wideouts. Coles has discussed retiring, so if he's BPA I think we grab a future starter and groom him for a couple years to play across from Cotchery.

DeSean Jackson, Cal*- Quick receiver with great moves that can do some fantastic things after the catch. Also a great return man. I think he's a great fit because if Coles stays for a couple more years he'd be a fantastic slot guy until LC retires and then he can move into the starting spot without too much pressure being put on him too early. If Chad's our QB he's capable of making big plays on short receptions, and if Kellen is our QB he can get deep. Runs great routes and is super competitive. I'd love to have him in NY.


That's it, if anybody has anything to add or wants some more reasoning beyond something, lemme know. Tell me what you guys think.

BroadwayJoe10
10-07-2007, 09:32 PM
I saw that the giants forum was talking about phil loadholt and i havn't seen anyone talk about him at all. I was paying attention to him a lot in the begining of this season, becuase i generally check out the top juco transfers and i remembered his story a year or two ago. He was prepared to transfer to LSU but some of his classes didn't fulfill the requirement to transfer, so he had to go back to JUCO. Now, obviously he is at Oklahoma.

I was trying to look up all the reasons why he was at a JUCO to begin with and the only thing i could think of was that he didn't want to go to a D2 school and none of the big football schools would let him play basketball either. However, i found out that he had plans to go to college at Colorado, but low ACT scores kept the D1 schools away. He was offered a ton of D2 basketball scholarships, but he said he knew his future was football, so he just had to go thru a year of JUCO and show he can get the grades. He ended up on the 3.0 list i beleive two years. Personally, I think thats amazing. Obviously not a brilliant guy, but he knew what he wanted and did exactly what he had to do to get it. Add that with his talent and hard work and then damn you've got urself a franchise tackle. sorry it was so long.

anyways, he projects as a LT, but i just like the idea of the guy on the right of our line. Two bookends and a stud center. Although, i have no idea where bender is projecting to be played.


EDIT: I started a post about this guy in one of the forums, but I figured it would be a good topic of discussion for us;

Jason Shirley, the DT from Fresno State. I heard someone talking about him the other week when I was at the BC game and complaining about how the Raji wouldn't be in the draft this year and someone told me to check out this Shirley guy. Listed as 6'5" 330 and rumored sub 4.5 40. However, I don't know if he is agile for his size, if he holds the point of attack or gets blown off the ball, if his size is good for his frame or if hes just fat etc. I was just hoping that anyone who gets to see this guy has some sort of insight in if he could project as a good NFL nose tackle or anything else about him.

hcbrad08
10-29-2007, 02:01 PM
Shirley got suspended indefinitely from fresno st on two mistemeanors. He is probably in the top 20 for DT and if hes that wuick he probably projects to more of a DE in a 34 than NT. HES 65 thats generally too tall to play NT and considering we already have the problem of people playing out of position I dont think we should exacerbate things...

Traded
Vilma 1st
Pennington 2nd/3rd
DRob 2nd/3rd

Prosepcts I like (or might like under certain conditions) for the Jets
Antoine Cason (he fits our mold too)
Glenn Dorsey (playmaker:please gain weight b4 the combine 320 please)
Chris Long (Same as Dorsey :please gain weight 295)
Limas Sweed (6'5''-Leaper the element we dont have)
Adarius Bowman (6'4'' same pedigree need one of two)
Quentin Groves (Please let him fall to where we're picking)
Frank Okam (34 DE if were at 3 we should trade down and if Long is too light)
Roy Schuening (I hate Defenisve Linemen Im going to kill them)
Jordan Grimes (I love blocking Im going to kill someone I love working out)

Long ways away but as draft fans I think the Jets have become the team from 2 years ago in the bush draft when we start seeing if we can get the #1 pick for Reggie Bush. This year though I could see us doing poorly and still trading down to stockpile picks especially considering the lack of a true #1 guy in the draft.

nvot9
10-29-2007, 08:15 PM
I can tell ya this right now, I'm like Quentin Jones a hell of a lot for the Jets.

BroadwayJoe10
10-29-2007, 08:22 PM
I can tell ya this right now, I'm like Quentin Jones a hell of a lot for the Jets.

I think ya mean quentin groves, unless im mistaken in which case my bad and ill have to check him out. But if ya meant groves, I like him too. I havn't seen too much of him, but when I have he looks real good in coverage, not that he is back in coverage that much becuase he is constantly blitzing and can definately get some pressure on the qb.

It's a little fantasy of mine that we get tommy blake in round 3 or something and he turns out to be amazing once he realizes he needs to stop talking in the third person and realizes that he can overcome his anxiety becuase he is getting paid millions to play a game. I don't see that happening, but it was just a little though I had. Anways, back to the point I like groves or gholston.

nvot9
10-29-2007, 08:50 PM
Yea, i meant groves.

juice1432
10-29-2007, 09:59 PM
What do you guys think about Malcolm Jenkins, CB for THE Ohio State Buckeyes. Have seen him play and he is a dominating force at the college level. He has great size, excellent speed and so on. They do not, I repeat, do not throw to his side of the field. And when they do, as Penn State learned last game, he will pick it and take it to the house.

I do not think any of the top prospects right now would address the Jets needs. Dorsey does not really fit in our 3-4 system, I do not want to waste another top 5-10 pick on an O-lineman when we can address that need later in the draft or via free agency, McFadden could be special but Jones is still a serviceable back so I don't know how I feel about drafting him, etc. I just wanna see what you guys think of getting another great corner. Dyson is not what he used to be, Barrett is awful, and with Miller being a disappointment at the CB position, we need to address this position somehow. And if we could trade down in the draft for say a late 1st and another second round pick, we could definately address some of our needs and get some much needed help (whether it be OL, DL, pass rushing LB, big WR, CB).

hcbrad08
10-30-2007, 01:10 AM
well said agreed...i love Malcolm Jenkins, I just wonder if we're going to have a pick where he warrents being selected...Just outside of top 10 or just at the bottom of it. I hope so
Heres some reference for those who dont know

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1A4Hu-Z8LOs

Here is an interview and Groves talking about his like for the 34...or that hes 50 50 on whether he likes playing with his hand down or up better

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6PNR2FaWC84

Hes such a beast I want him and would take him over Jenkins if we had to choose just bc of need of a pass rush and the fact that even if we are light at CB we have Revis and ok #2s who are really #3s but i guess bottom line we dont have a guy who can do this (reminds me over roosevelt colvin)vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O0tGLd2LQ0w

CannedToast
10-30-2007, 11:43 AM
Honestly, we should trade away everyone but D-Brick, Mangold, Rhodes, and Cotchery, and Revis for picks, and field an almost exclusively rookie team.

derza222
10-30-2007, 01:46 PM
Honestly, we should trade away everyone but D-Brick, Mangold, Rhodes, and Cotchery, and Revis for picks, and field an almost exclusively rookie team.

I'd keep Brad Smith, Clemens, Leon Washington, Stuckey, and David Harris around. And Jacob Bender just for the hell of it. But other than that...

BroadwayJoe10
10-30-2007, 03:03 PM
I love groves, and if get a better DC he could really do some great things in the 3-4.

Something I was thinking about earlier after reading an article; Ray lewis is getting old and i doubt the ravens are gonna extend his contract. Terrell suggs is asking for more money than the ravens seem willing to pay. What about a vilma for suggs straight up? Now obvously it is just speculation but it seems somewhat reasonable for both teams. Would you guys rather have this than a 1st rounder or would you want the pick?

juice1432
10-30-2007, 03:19 PM
I would LOVE Suggs but Ravens also play a 3-4 and seeing how Vilma cannot play in it, I doubt the ravens would ever make that trade.

BroadwayJoe10
10-30-2007, 04:14 PM
i did question that, but the ravens dline and rest of their defense is so good that i think vilma could actually flourish in it. Ray lewis has always used his speed and athletic ability to make plays sideline to sideline, he does weigh 20 lbs more than vilma but i dont think the strength is that huge of a difference between vilma. I still think lewis had trouble shedding guards, which he even said, and once he got the better line he was fine. That having been said, I think Vilma will still be a ny jet next year. Maybe we can find a new DC to utilize his ability; good DCs find ways to utilize their best defensive player. Vilma is an absolute star and I know 3-4 isn't his best fit, but i gaurantee a Dick LeBeau, Jim Johnson or Rex Ryan could do some interesting things with him.

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of a coordinator saying damn we have an amazing talent lets get rid of him, I think the right coach says hmm lets think of somethign we could do to utilize his ability. LIKE playing SS. I know that is a far fetched idea, but the point is it's an out of the box idea that could help utilize his ability. I'm just asking for some better thinking from sutton.

hcbrad08
10-30-2007, 07:04 PM
Ive heard suggs say he would never play in NY

Crickett
10-30-2007, 07:09 PM
Ive heard suggs say he would never play in NY

When? And why? :confused:

BroadwayJoe10
10-30-2007, 08:55 PM
yaa i have heard it too, but i also heard johnny damon say that, i've heard arod say he loves new york and feels comfortable. As long as money talks, which it most certainly does, everytime a players says "never," I take it with a grain of salt and wait until they see the offered contract.

nvot9
10-30-2007, 09:20 PM
yaa i have heard it too, but i also heard johnny damon say that, i've heard arod say he loves new york and feels comfortable. As long as money talks, which it most certainly does, everytime a players says "never," I take it with a grain of salt and wait until they see the offered contract.

Na I don't want Terrell Suggs unless we can get a dominant NT as well, ala Haloti Ngata.

hcbrad08
10-30-2007, 09:24 PM
Terrell Suggs wouldnt need a dominant NT as much bc he plays OLB and would be in coverage or blitzing...He is also massive 63 260 and could engage and truck OLmen so not an issue with him...I want him IN THE WORST WAY I just think even as a FA regardless of trade possibilities he wont come to NY.

derza222
10-30-2007, 09:35 PM
I really didn't want Suggs all that much to begin with (I think we need to start with the trenches and continue from there), and agree with hcbrad that there's almost no way he comes here. But the fact that he's got 28 tackles and 2 sacks through 7 games at this point worries me a bit (and it's not like he's creating a ton of sacks for other players, the Ravens are tied for 17th in the league in sacks this season). If that's how productive he is on a team with an actual defensive line and a defensive coordinator that schemes well and is aggressive, I can't imagine he'd do anything but be a bust for whatever large contract we signed him to. Granted, you can't base everything on this seasons statistics, but I didn't like him that much when he had better stats and this year's statistics don't make me feel much better about him. I still say we need to build the defensive line.

BroadwayJoe10
10-30-2007, 10:16 PM
I was just throwing that idea out there becuase it came up in some sports column, I havn't watched enough of him to merit giving an opinion on whether I would trade or sign a huge contract for him. It's just good to get an opinion from others who has seen him more of him than myself.

jmess15
11-05-2007, 07:55 AM
Great idea for a thread, I'd love to see the NYJ forum get moving again. I thought all of your points were great and really well argued. We've got a solid team with no real superstars, but no large holes either.

The offensive line could definitely use upgrades at the G/RT spots (though I have heard good things about Clarke, we'll see), and what position we go after really depends on what position they're trying to groom Bender at. I say this is the biggest hole, especially because depth never hurts.

The D-line also has some big questions, I think we could use a bigger NT unless Robertson improves this year (which isn't completely out of the question) and a DE if nobody really steps up across from Ellis, (although I think Haynes or Coleman will). Probably the next biggest hole, also because, like the OL, depth never hurts.

I also wouldn't rule out using a pick on a rush OLB depending on how we do rushing the passer, and if we can actually generate a pass rush with our personnel or if we have to use blitz packages. How big of a need this is largely depends on our performance next year, a wild card if you will.

The WR spot also could possibly use an upgrade. Us using a pick on that spot probably largely depends on the development of guys like Brad Smith and Pellot-Rosa, both of whom have the physical abilities to be outside, number one type guys. Stuckey I believe will be more of a slot WR, although a very talented one at that. If Cotchery somehow develops into a #1 (which I don't see happening, he's a #2 through and through IMO) I could see Stuckey being a #2 and this isn't a need. Otherwise Smith or Pellot-Rosa could develop into that lead guy. But if not, we have a need for a #1 WR in the future as Coles has said he won't be around much longer. If addressed through the draft, though, it makes it difficult to pick a guy because you don't only need a WR but the kind of guy with the ability to be a #1.

Finally, the only other thing you didn't mention is the TE spot, where if Baker doesn't play well this year we have nobody else. Not that I really expect it to happen, but who knows, it's more likely than other positions. Same with our safety play next to Kerry Rhodes.

Obviously there's also a chance that something random happens like Thomas Jones busting or Pennington ending his career with another shoulder injury, but barring that kind of stuff happening I think these are what we're going to be looking at as needs.
Just for clarity, are we saying a 7th round pick and an undrafted FA who didnt play college football can be our # 1 and # 2 receivers?

Crickett
11-05-2007, 08:40 AM
Just for clarity, are we saying a 7th round pick and an undrafted FA who didnt play college football can be our # 1 and # 2 receivers?

This is nothing new. Once upon a time, I ran into people who argued that the Jets didn't need to draft D'Brick because they had Adrian Jones and Marko Cavka.

derza222
11-05-2007, 10:19 AM
Just for clarity, are we saying a 7th round pick and an undrafted FA who didnt play college football can be our # 1 and # 2 receivers?

First of all, that was posted in July. Why are you referring to it now? Seems relatively pointless to me, because if you had any reading comprehension skills you would realize that portion of the post was purely speculation. At this point in time Pellot-Rosa is out of the picture because he clearly wasn't cut out to be a receiver. But who knew what we had in him at that point?

All I was saying is unless these unlikely scenarios would mean we don't need to draft a wideout. If these guys did develop (must be impossible that a late round draft pick or undrafted free agent from a different sport would develop into elite players, right? Besides the fact that you are ignoring the fact that Stuckey fell because of a broken foot, and was considered a fringe day one guy.) we wouldn't need to look at the position. But otherwise, we would. It was a MASSIVE what if scenario.

Hindsight is 20-20, and although I figured Pellot-Rosa would make the team and wasn't banking on a Stuckey injury I kind of figured we'd look at the position this year, WHICH IS WHY I POSTED IT AS A POSSIBLE NEED. I was just looking at scenarios (albeit unlikely ones) where we wouldn't need to draft a receiver this year.

So in the end, at the time I was saying that there were possibilites that guys developed and stepped into larger roles, but it was unlikely. Which is, again, why I listed wideout as a position that probably would need to be addressed in this years draft. And I still think, although the front 7 and offensive line are bigger needs, that it is a position we could stand to address. So between that, the fact that you totally misinterpreted my post, and the fact that you picked some random post from July that was complete speculation to nitpick, I have absolutely no idea why you posted that.

juice1432
11-05-2007, 11:17 PM
BruceIf we can't get Groves, then Bruce Davis 6'3" 235 UCLA DE should be available in the 2nd round and he is dirty.

A sack machine in college, could be a great pass rushing OLB in a 3-4. Just something to ponder.
2007 stats - 10.5 tackles for a loss, 9.5 sacks
2006 stats - 17.5 tackles for loss, 12.5 sacks 1st Team All American

hcbrad08
11-06-2007, 06:42 AM
I've read in three other places that Davis is a 3-4 rounder (at olb where a lot of people are projexting him) as of this point in the season...hes fast but hes undersized even at 6'3'' 235 (scott wrights height and weight is wrong and almost always is...hes def not 6-3 225) if he could overcome that and play up to 250 size which is needed for the 34 then I like the pick esp in the 3rd or 4th bc Davis is good. I just dont want a repeat of Vilma at the OLB pos.

Also I think the possibility of drafting frank Okam or red bryant someone 65 320+ who was a DT that we could use at DE could help the DL tremendously bc thr Ravens running their 34 are now running it with 340 lb haloti Ngata at DE bc hes 64 and kelly Gregg is their NT and hes 60 310 if their LBs could tackle it seems to keep them happy enough which is our problem. (They also blitz most in the NFL and it usually works so maybe we could take their model and use it for us)...
RDE: Kenyon Coleman 6'5'' 305, NT: Dewayne Robertson 6'1'' 315 (or as a stop gap situational signing granddad Keith Traylor 6'2'' 350), LDE: Frank Okam 6'5'' 320. That could upgrade the line for one year until raji comes out Thoughts?

Does anyone else know another 6'0''-6'3'', 320-500lb NT who isnt 39 who will be a FA next season who might be a stop gap for next season.

hcbrad08
11-06-2007, 08:49 AM
I jusr saw a recap of the UNLV game and a guy named Beau Bell ILB was ridiculous I would not be surprised if he wasa 2nd rounder come draft day. Look him up...NASTY HE HITS HARDER THAN HARRIS TRUST ME!

derza222
11-06-2007, 10:35 AM
I've heard good things about Bell but haven't seen him. Thanks for mentioning him, I'll check him out. Also, among your college tackles that we could convert to end I'd put Dre Moore at the top of that list. 6'4, 311, 4.82 forty. He's a beast. Should be a big riser come draft day, but is probably tops on my wish list for the Jets.

Also hcbrad, what do you think we should do about the safety position. Seems its in flux right now. Is it worth a look this draft if we pick up a couple of extra picks from trades? I saw in the other thread you think Elam is our SS next year, but if we get a mid first rounder in a deal and a guy like Reggie Smith who's a great coverage safety is on the board do you think he's worth a look with Rhodes then moving to SS? I just think we'd be better off with a good cover guy next to Rhodes so he's free to blitz, roam around, and confuse QB's without worrying about giving up the deep ball.

BroadwayJoe10
11-06-2007, 10:38 AM
I jusr saw a recap of the UNLV game and a guy named Beau Bell ILB was ridiculous I would not be surprised if he wasa 2nd rounder come draft day. Look him up...NASTY HE HITS HARDER THAN HARRIS TRUST ME!

wow, now that is sayin something. I would like to get a guy who hits harder than harris, next to harris. Finally get some guys who will make RB's and offenses be like damnit, we gotta play the jets this weekend. Much like the steelers played last night, just tough physical football.

And hcbrad08/brady hah didn't mean any disrespect by that just a bit of confusion. Anyways, I think i just might take a trip over to BC to convince BJ to come out. I should have charts and everything to explain how he'll get picked in the top either by the jets or 49ers. Most likely the jets; we should start a petition or somethin.

hcbrad08
11-06-2007, 11:20 AM
For the Safety position I think Elam is going to be our guy barring horendous play down the line in which case wed have another hole to fill...I thnk we could upgrade but the thing is we have much more pressing needs and teams can get away with lesser safeties if they improve their front 7. I also like elams hitting an kerry rhodes smoothness or whatever you wanna call it... I wanna see some help up front first really but if we need a FS those are not bad ideas.

derza222
11-06-2007, 11:33 AM
I was thinking more of in a scenario where we're picking mid-first and there's nobody that fills a front 7 or OL need available, but I'm thinking a RT or OLB could be on the board there so it probably doesn't happen unless Elam is terrible the rest of the year. What are your thoughts on Moore?

hcbrad08
11-07-2007, 02:55 AM
Dre Moore is about athletic as Shaun Ellis, but he's 10 years younger and 30 lbs bigger. I like Maryland Def. players they seem to produce in the NFL.
at 6'4'' 315 and a 4.9 40 Moore is a perfect fit. We'll see how he works out and his finally stats. its a 34 what you should look for are flashes of getting after the Qb but first the idea of tying up multiple defenders and getting away...Ive seen that from Okam but on the interior part of a 34 at Texas thats why Ive been mentioning him but I could see Moore being a similar type of player. and if thats the case we could go OLB (Groves) and RT (Cherildus) in the 1st round (assuming we get a 1st rounder for Vilma OR enough for him and Chad to trade into the with another pick 1st OR trade down from top 5 pick and get another pick from someone with 2) and then address DE in the 2nd (OKAM) or in the 3rd (Moore) (i dont think hell be a 2nd rounder bc of a lack of stats)...
Red Bryant though may be a 2nd rounder and he could play DE at 6'5'' 325 but he has a surgically repaired right knee that he admittedly favors every once and a while...

Also reportedly Quentin Groves on tape is running in the 4.45 range when playing OLB in the 34. WE NEED HIM... 6'3'' 250 4.55 on a bad day ummm yeah Ill take him in the top 10.

derza222
11-07-2007, 07:02 AM
Don't sleep on Moore. He may not have fantastic numbers because of the defense he plays in at Maryland, but he's productive for a college DL and probably the quickest DT in this draft. Plus he's an insanely good fit for the 3-4, with some ability to play end. I think by the time draft day comes along he goes in the first, early second.

Also, in theory if we're picking top 5 and have no opportunity to trade down, I have a scenario. Some big wideout (Malcolm Kelley, James Hardy, Bowman) comes in and tears it up at the combine, runs a great 40, and becomes a top 5 prospect. They are available, as is McFadden. As I said, we have no opportunity to trade down. Who do you take? What if we do have the opportunity to deal down, do you take one of the guys or take the trade?

And Groves is ridiculous. If he continues to rise that scenario I outlined above may not matter because we could just take him at our spot.

juice1432
11-08-2007, 03:43 PM
The answer to our prayers at WR is Jordy Nelson from Kansas State. Just read about him in the 2008 Draft Forum and he seems like the real deal. 6'3" 210 runs a 4.3. He's only played WR for two years but he gets dramatically better every year. He should be available in the 2nd round. Watch him burn Iqib Talib from Kansas who is arguably a top 5 CB prospect for juniors.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ek0ANQ8bRfo

If not him I want DJ Hall from Alabama.

juice1432
11-08-2007, 03:46 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sHYUhQDj7ek

DJ Hall = nasty

hcbrad08
11-08-2007, 04:18 PM
Here are some situations I drew up.
Vilma = 1
Pennington = 3
Kendall = 4

1a) Quentin Groves OLB
1b) Gosder Cherildius RT
2) Frank Okam RE
3a) Beau Bell ILB
3b) Trae Williams RCB
4a) Chris McDuffie LG
4b) Paul Hubbard WR
5) JJ Finley TE
6) Joe Flacco QB

1a) Groves OLB
1b) Bowman WR
2) Moore RE
3a) Bell ILB
3b) Jeff Otah RT
4a) McDuffie LG
4b) Leodis McKlevin CB
5) FinleyTE
6) Flacco QB

BroadwayJoe10
11-08-2007, 07:39 PM
i am pretty sure that the stipulation was we would get the 4th rounder next year from kendal or a 5th this year. I am not 100% positive, I'll have to check back on it. I am a big groves fan, and I want to see him play more so I can see him in the 3-4 hey are now using. I also am now having a tough time seeing us getting a 1st for vilma until they let us know what kind of surgeryy. I'd rather trade drob, but we'll see.

I wouldn't mind seeing us pursue asante samuel in free agency either.

hcbrad08
11-09-2007, 07:12 AM
I think if were going to pursue anyone in FA it should be Faneca...Samuel is good but putting a lot of money into a CB with rookie QB sends a bad message about the priorities of the team and CB is not our problem at all on our defense...it is a 2ndary need and when u watch the jets the coverage is good and the pressure is awful. I want help in the trenches first and then move out to theoutside

nvot9
11-09-2007, 09:09 AM
I think if were going to pursue anyone in FA it should be Faneca...Samuel is good but putting a lot of money into a CB with rookie QB sends a bad message about the priorities of the team and CB is not our problem at all on our defense...it is a 2ndary need and when u watch the jets the coverage is good and the pressure is awful. I want help in the trenches first and then move out to theoutside

Agreed, Samuel's gunna be asking for way too much money...

derza222
11-09-2007, 03:40 PM
I think if were going to pursue anyone in FA it should be Faneca...Samuel is good but putting a lot of money into a CB with rookie QB sends a bad message about the priorities of the team and CB is not our problem at all on our defense...it is a 2ndary need and when u watch the jets the coverage is good and the pressure is awful. I want help in the trenches first and then move out to theoutside

Agree completely that we need help in the trenches. Think we give Hobson a shot to move inside instead of completely getting rid of him and picking up a new guy for that position, or is he gone?

TimD
11-09-2007, 09:11 PM
Either Barton or Hobson is leaving. Harris will be a starter and that means there is only room for one more ILB. Unless of course they completely avoid picking up an pass rushing OLB

Crickett
11-10-2007, 08:52 PM
Either Barton or Hobson is leaving. Harris will be a starter and that means there is only room for one more ILB. Unless of course they completely avoid picking up an pass rushing OLB

This is a shame. I still remember how great Barton was when he first became a Jet. :(

Crickett
11-11-2007, 10:42 AM
The more I look at it, the more the only person I'm remotely comfortable with at #3 is Glenn Dorsey at DE. I'm assuming he can successfully make that transition to 3-4 DE.

Darren McFadden - A. He's not Adrian Peterson. People need to realize he's not Adrian Peterson. B. The Jets weakness isn't at running back, it's run blocking.

Chris Long - The Jets have a huge problem at defensive end. But if they're willing to use a 6'4 sub 290 defensive end, why not just keep Shaun Ellis?

hcbrad08
11-12-2007, 08:29 AM
Good point about Long...Glenn Dorsey is so much of a freak and taking him at 3 for DE may be an option but I don't know if he can overcome the common belief that DE in a 34 needs to be taller bc OTs (typically 6'4''-6'7'') can engulf them at the point of attack if the DEs are too short despite gerth. Also on the same note...If we wanted to have a 6'2'' 310 DE why not just use Dewayne Robertson... We'll see.

I think if we win a couple of more games and are around 5 or 6 Quentin Groves may be a viable pick bc many are predicting him to have reidiculous combine numbers. sub 4.5 40 type

BroadwayJoe10
11-12-2007, 12:19 PM
Good point about Long...Glenn Dorsey is so much of a freak and taking him at 3 for DE may be an option but I don't know if he can overcome the common belief that DE in a 34 needs to be taller bc OTs (typically 6'4''-6'7'') can engulf them at the point of attack if the DEs are too short despite gerth. Also on the same note...If we wanted to have a 6'2'' 310 DE why not just use Dewayne Robertson... We'll see.

I think if we win a couple of more games and are around 5 or 6 Quentin Groves may be a viable pick bc many are predicting him to have reidiculous combine numbers. sub 4.5 40 type

This is basically what i've been thinkin for the last few weeks. I know everyone is talking about us getting a top 5 pick and i know you are only as good as your record, but i still have a feeling we end up winning a few more games. I agree about not taking long (becuase hes like ellis) but then the same thing about dorsey (he is just like drob, but stronger). I think quentin groves is going to end up being the ideal pick. My personal favorite scenario is get groves with our first and wind up with dre moore in the 2nd. I have to wait for the combine to see who i like better, Tyson Jackson or Dre moore. (assuming jackson comes out) And i doubt we'd be able to get both jackson and groves. Just on my radar of guys i definately want to see on the jets is one of those 4; Groves, Gholston, Jackson and Moore. Time will tell how these guys work out, they all may eventually end up being first rounders....Just like tommy blake was a sure first rounder pre-season.

hcbrad08
11-12-2007, 12:29 PM
Is Frank Okam on your Radar for the early 2nd Round bc thats a distinct possibility that he slipps to 36 or so overall as oppsed to Dre Moore Moving up from a projected 3rd-4th rounder to early 2nd. I like moore Im just saying its easier to fall and still be quality as opposed to rising and just being a workout warrior.

BroadwayJoe10
11-12-2007, 03:40 PM
Is Frank Okam on your Radar for the early 2nd Round bc thats a distinct possibility that he slipps to 36 or so overall as oppsed to Dre Moore Moving up from a projected 3rd-4th rounder to early 2nd. I like moore Im just saying its easier to fall and still be quality as opposed to rising and just being a workout warrior.

Oh he definately is, as are a few other guys that i've been able to watch. ie. malcolm jenkins, kendal langford etc. I just listed those 4 guys, because I just happen to have a sort of favoritism for them and I havn't really watched too many texas games to be honest. The FO has had two solid drafts in a row and i am hoping that it continues in a trend and this one is even better than the last.

derza222
11-12-2007, 03:49 PM
Okam really scares me because he's an underachiever. Great talent, but just hasn't really lived up to it yet. It's a big warning sign, and it's why he's falling IMO. I'd avoid him early second, and probably wouldn't take him to the third where his talent and value would outweigh the fact that he's a very risky pick. Not to say that underachievers never pan out, because they do, but I do think it's a roll of the dice and on a team that needs solid players now I don't think we can afford to roll the dice on a huge question mark like I think Okam is early.

I also think you sell Moore short hcbrad. His stats may not be there, but he's a very disruptive player on Maryland's defense and a very good player at the collegiate level. Besides, if we stick him in our system are we going to need a guy that gets sacks or takes up blockers and pushes the pocket. I think it's dangerous to assume that just because somebody has great physical talent and is rising up draft boards he's purely a workout warrior. Moore is a good player on the field as well as being supremely talented and a hard worker. Those reasons, along with the facts that he's a great fit for the 3-4 and versatile, make him a very appealing player IMO.

hcbrad08
11-12-2007, 06:35 PM
No not at all I was the first one to mention Dre Moore in this Forum. I just look at him for what he is at this moment...a 4th round projection and I don't care about Scott Wright's projections for 40 time bc thats firstly a guess and secondly not the only factor that goes into seeing someone physical ability for the position...

No one has ever said that Frank Okam has dazzled this year but he still is a consensus 2nd round pick as of now... Not to mention people expected him to be a lot better but forgot all of the talent Texas lost on defense last year in the draft
Secondary
-Michael Griffiin
-Aaron Ross
-Tarell Brown
Defensive Ends
-Tim Crowder
-Brian Robison

So yes Okam had high expectations but also more to deal with as the only player lost on Dre Moore defense was John "The Truth" Wilson.

Not to mention Dre Moore has not produced and has never been considered elite...Ranked as a 3 star scout 9th in the country and Okam is still a 5 3rd in the country (not by wrights rankings) . I'm not saying he hasn't underachieved, but he is not the typical underachiever who doesn't try hard...it's more inconsistancy from week to week from 5 to 3 star, where as Moore is consistently a little above average 3 star....And the idea that Okam has lost talent around him isn't an excuse more like an explination, that he shouldn't have been expected to be as good although last year he was projected in the late 1st early 2nd and was said to be pretty good so from one year to another things can change but I think his talent level says that if he is put in the right position 34 DE Frank Okam at 6'5'' 320 can achieve as expected.

I know you're right to say Dre Moore is a distruptive force and his stock is rising no doubt (I love his intensity and I like MARYLAND DEF PLAYERS) and maybe okam will fall further, but I'm not sleeping on Moore so much as I'm looking at this realisticly at this point from his highlight reels and what I've seen on tv WITHOUT combine stats ....Basically if he can put up numbers INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO a 4.90 40 like scott wright says then Im with you 100% but if he runs a 5.00+LITLLE like I'm guessing he's going to I'd have to see some other things...4.90 AT 315 is insane

Dre Moore is slated by a lot of draft scouts as a 4th rounder and Okam formerly a 1st rounder is considered a 2nd rounder. I hope he shows something to us and we draft him without reaching bc at 6'4' 315 lbs and with a good burst Dre Moore is a fit for a 3-4 DE I'm moore (pundt) against reaching for someone when there is someone of "higher value" on a lot of boards...let's see how it plays out Im not down on Moore I just don't want to be projecting something that may end up being extremely dissapointing like a lot of people did with Alan Branch last year...Like I said we'll see, but I'm not sleeping more like anxiously awaiting the numbers to see if we can merit taking him with a 2nd rounder like a lot of people are discussing.

Prosepects at DE for the Jets
-Frank Okam
-Kentwan Balmer (no hes 295 not 280 like Wright has him at)
-Dre Moore
-Calais Campbell
-Kendall Langford
-Keilen Dykes

we are primed to make an upgrade at this position with how many DEs fit the script...It will IMO really be just the process of taking the best one companied with the best value.

derza222
11-12-2007, 06:41 PM
I dunno about Dre Moore being projected as a 4th round pick. I honestly see Okam as being in the same mold as Rod Wright in a previous draft and slipping a ton. And again, it's not like Moore doesn't produce, I still think you sell him short in on field production. We will see come draft day I guess, but for now to each their own...

hcbrad08
11-12-2007, 07:01 PM
Dre Moore with 1 full year of starting experience as of today...
NFL Draft Scouts INC: Dre Moore proj round 4th
Scouts INC. (espn even though I hate them): Dre Moore proj round 4th
Scouts.com: Dre Moore 9th ranked DT week to week rankings. Round equivilancy 4th.
Rivals.com:2 star recruit

I like moore I'm just saying from what I've seen and heard people are projecting him to be a 4th rounder, I'm sure you have somewhere saying he's a 2nd, I'm just going off of what I've heard. I like Moore, I was extremely pumped when he had that INT against BC. I just hope your right is what Im saying...I hope he becomes a 2nd rounder and I hope he runs a 4.9 and measures well and big and I hope he continues to rise to the point from a 4th to a 2nd where he's worth taking...I've read he's one of the strongest players in Maryland history WHICH IS SAYING ALOT I just don't want to have to justify taking him the 2nd I want it to be a consensus pick yes that was great no 2nd guessing good value good player no regrets no reaching That's all. I've watched his play this year and last year and I think he will fit in the 34 as a DE if he can keep his weight up without sacrificing speed. If he;s as stout against the run as I've seen him play then I'm all for taking him.

It's just a lot of ifs at this point and I just wanna see what happens, let's not crown him yet...but let's not take our eye off of his play and stock in general... I know its superficial but I actually think just from looking at them Moore looks more like a 34 DE than okam does, but we'll see the measruements and all and see how things pan out. I hope your right.

derza222
11-12-2007, 07:54 PM
I hope I am too. I tend not to go by those ratings because I think they're off as of right now and will be far more accurate later on. I just don't trust the scouting services. It's more of a what I've seen and heard, a compilation of a bunch of opinions and my own. Personally I think he's a first rounder, obviously many feel that's not the case so I think second is reasonable for now but for a player with Moore's talent I think the fourth is absolutely ridiculous. Early third at the absolute latest IMO. If he goes any later a bunch of teams will be kicking themselves down the road. We'll see what happens come draft day, certainly will be a very interesting story to follow.

BroadwayJoe10
11-12-2007, 08:30 PM
One of the strongest in maryland history? wow, thats quite the attribute.

I wasn't trying to put down okam as much as I was saying I am big on Moore. I know you were one of the first to mention him, but I couldn't speak of okam just because I hadn't seen him play enough to warrant me saying i want him. Whether it be tyson jackson, frank okam, dre moore or kendal langford (who i havn't seen once i just mentioned the name becuase of his size and the hype other people have given him) I just would like a big DE who has the ability to take up blockers and be stout against the run. I would especially like it if this DE could be had in the 2nd round, becuase I would like to use our first rounder on a quentin groves or vernon gholston.

I also know our team sent some scouts to TCU's first games of the season to see tommy blake. I know that our team has a very tough questioning system it runs there prospects through, I would definately like to make sure this guy does or doesnt have the emotional capcacity to play in the NFL. If for some reason we feel he can and he somehow gets his act together and he is taken in the later part of day 1 or early day 2 he could be the steal of the draft.

I am only saying this becuase in class one day I was half daydreaming that we traded down out of the top 5 (got a mid 1st and late 1st) drafted groves, malcolm jenkins and then i beleive it was dre moore with the 2nd. Drafted jordan grimes with the 3rd (not sure if thats a reach or not but i just wanted a big LG) and then tommy blake with the 4th rounder and he ended up being the next demarcus ware. It's those types of things that get me through the day haha.

Crickett
11-12-2007, 09:17 PM
Good point about Long...Glenn Dorsey is so much of a freak and taking him at 3 for DE may be an option but I don't know if he can overcome the common belief that DE in a 34 needs to be taller bc OTs (typically 6'4''-6'7'') can engulf them at the point of attack if the DEs are too short despite gerth. Also on the same note...If we wanted to have a 6'2'' 310 DE why not just use Dewayne Robertson... We'll see.

I'd say Dorsey/Robertson is an equally good point. Although I wish the Jets actually would try Robertson at DE.

hcbrad08
11-13-2007, 10:47 AM
They do on ocasion its just not a staple of the defense bc when they play him on the outside and poouha in the middle he rarely makes a play ive seen it about 10 times this season. Look for it.

BroadwayJoe10
11-15-2007, 05:04 PM
They do on ocasion its just not a staple of the defense bc when they play him on the outside and poouha in the middle he rarely makes a play ive seen it about 10 times this season. Look for it.

Yaa, i've seen it. He really just doesn't have the size to play anywhere on our defensive line. Maybe, if we had two HUGE DE's he could possibly play the nose, but I just don't see it happening.

I tell you the one guy who I had my eye on all season (well the part he played) who I really would have liked to play inside with harris is jasper brinkley. 6'2 262 and has the strength to shed blockers and athletic ability to get to the ball carrier and knock him back. Personally i see him as a little bigger and more athletic david harris. I think the fact that he is going to be entering the draft next year could be a good thing. If we are keeping the 3-4 and we already have a solid ILB with david harris, i think having two run stuffers will bring the defense to the next level. Assuming this year we get an OLB and a DE. Now, this is over a year away, it was just something i was thinking at the time. And wanted to see if anyone else liked the idea of him in the middle as well.

juice1432
11-15-2007, 05:14 PM
Brinkley would be a perfect fit, as he is huge, a three year starter at South Carolina, and an animal like Harris. However, he tore his ACL this season so we need to see how well he comes back from the injury.

bigbluedefense
11-15-2007, 05:34 PM
Thoughts on Crable?

I question his ability to shed blocks, but he does seem to have good speed.

Is there any FA DEs that have potential worth signing?

BroadwayJoe10
11-15-2007, 08:02 PM
I think that he tore his LCL, coincidentally the same type of sprain AD had, but Brinkleys was worse. I am guessing a grade 3. I could be wrong, but I remember reading an article where Casper was saying atleast it wasn't his ACL. Which sucks, because i remember reading earlier in the year in espn saying his 1 true fear was a knee injury. Freakin kiss of death if ive ever heard one.

And BBD; I agree with your sentiment that Crable doesn't seem to be able to shed blocks, but I havn't been able to determine is if it's because he doesn't have the strength or he has just been so use to relying on his natural athleticism and speed that he has never had to work on hand work and shedding blocks. I will have to watch more of him.

And for free agents, do you mean at the end of next year? Because the ones that come off the top of my head would be; Terrell Suggs, Jared Allen, Justin smith and Mike RUCKER (even tho he is gonna be in his mid 30's he can still be a threat to an offensive line. I know the knocks on him are that well first he is old, and second he has the privelage of playing on a defensive line with Peppers, but he will be able to contribute to a team)

hcbrad08
11-15-2007, 10:30 PM
I used to like Crable but then I realized we'd just be getting a younger more inexperienced version of Victor Hobson.

Quentin Groves all the way @ OLB #4 overall is my guess.

BroadwayJoe10
11-15-2007, 11:12 PM
I used to like Crable but then I realized we'd just be getting a younger more inexperienced version of Victor Hobson.

Quentin Groves all the way @ OLB #4 overall is my guess.

Couldn't agree more. I love groves and I think him coupled with getting a quality DE our defense could be on the right path.

I think you mentioned a 1 year stop gap free agent NT, but I can' remember who ya said. Just until raji comes out, and all I know is we better go after him hard.

Average OT LB
11-18-2007, 03:36 PM
I get to watch all the jets games and i have to say, for a team whose all but done this season, they're very entertaining and despite the record i'd much rather have Mangini than Norv. They just ran the option, and i feel thats just incredbile ingenuity..

Crickett
11-18-2007, 06:36 PM
Let me ask this now. Who were those guys and what did they do with the real New York Jets defense? You know what? I don't care. I hope I don't find out.

juice1432
11-18-2007, 08:33 PM
"Dre' Moore, Maryland An incredible all-around athlete for his position and size, Moore is likely to be considered an upper-echelon pick after the NFL Combine. He was given a late-round grade after an inconsistent junior season, but this season has four sacks, 40 tackles, six tackles for loss and two forced fumbles. Moore can generate great power at the point of attack when he keeps his pads low and fires out off the snap. He needs to make better use of his hands as he can stay blocked and struggle to escape. Has drawn comparisons to former first-round pick Ty Warren as scouts believe he is versatile and athletic enough to play at both defensive tackle and defensive end in the NFL."

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/news;_ylt=Aj4yb7DPGijiGzmcneQoqtocvrYF?slug=jm-dts111607&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

hcbrad08
11-19-2007, 02:30 AM
Some Players to watch after this weekend in college football...
All of us I'm sure are watching....
-Quentin Groves
-Dre Moore

Here are some more...
-Beau Bell (He's breaking records in the WAC but he would be a beast anywhere)
-Roy Scheuning (Argueably the best G in the draft PROJ. RD. late 2nd)
-Barry Richardson (Voted best OL in the ACC 2 weeks in a row.Yes BCs in the ACC)
-Darnell Terrell (1YR exp. great size and has played well when give the chance)
-Marcus Monk (2 ARTH knee surg. drop his stock but hes huge and a playmaker)
-Keilen Dykes (A late rd depth pick but fits our mold and is hard worker)

IMO...
I love Quentin Groves and Beau Bell... Apparently Groves isnt garnering as high opinions from scouts as once thought but will still be a high 1st. Beau Bell for me is a must take, just bc I have a man crush bc he crushes men (with word play like that how could you go wrong). I think an option for the draft if we move a few people (vilma, penn, hobson, kendall extras, maybe others)
1a)OLB- Quentin Groves
1b)ILB- Beau Bell
2a)DE- Dre Moore
2b)OG- Roy Scheuning
3) OT- Barry Richardson
4a)CB- Darnell Terrell
4b)WR- Marcus Monk
5)DL- Keilin Dykes
6)DL- Frank Morton

1a)Groves: We need a pure pass rusher who can dominate and make Bryan Thomas better (like abraham made ellis betteR) bc Thomas is a fit in our def. and Groves will be the perfect compliment.

1b)Bell: I know Barton looks good and I'm a supporter of Barton Harris ILB package...Beau Bell is a unique talent and he has size and speed and is David Harris but with less around him. Ultimately, this pick along with Groves at 1a gives us in all likelyhood a young and dominant LB core. Also with the lack of DL talent in the draft for our system and value this pick still allows us to improve the front 7-our run D and D as a whole.

2a)Moore: He is moving up and fits our system perfectly. Like the Juice and that article said he's being compared to Ty Warren, I'll take it. 1ST 3 picks all address Defense and Manginis desire to run a 34. It also addresses what has cost us multiple games this season the lack of a pass rush and stout front 7.

2b)Scheuning: IMO the top G in the country. His coach has said his work ethic is second to none. Hes big and is known for a mean streak. He looks like he belongs on the Patriots line of mammoth burley men. I'll take him to build up our line and help make Mangold and Brick as good as they were last year on top of the progress they would have made in 2 seasons. If this is how it plays out....SEXY DRAFT PARTY

3)Richardson: He's a monster and plays LT in College, he reminds me of Marcus McNeil for size. He will play RT in the pros. At clemson he's been a leader and is being compared to other ACC OTs like those a BC or Lineman U. I think at 6'7'' 335 he's at the extreme least a younger version of Anthony Clement. I think he'll be much more than the absolute least upgrade, I think he's more physical and will keep our line young and powerful for a long time. Decent value in the 3rd

4a)Terrell: 6-2 205. We haven't had a CB that was 6'2'' since Marcus Coleman (yes I just dropped that name #42) Terrell is fast and physical hes a good tackler which along with the fact that Mangini has shown he likes those CBs is why I would choose him over the Justin Miller clone from IOWA Charles Godfrey. We need an upgrade at #2 CB unless we decide to trade some of these later picks to improve our front 7 and let our back 4 stay where its at... Revis is above avergae but the other CBs bring our CB core down.

4b)Monk: 6'6'' I think with how committed we've become to the fade pass near the endzone we need some size at the position. Monk has decent speed as well for being 6'6'' 210 (4.60) He had two arthroscpic knee surguries and it has limited his play and dropped his stock but I think since they were minor but came at the same time he'll get healthy. Darren McFadden said that Monk just coming back has hleped his play bc just being on the field teams have to accoutn for Monk whether its a legit threat or not. He was brought in as decoy and it worked, not to mention before that he had great numbers at Arkansas. ANd realistically his role would be limited to a big body when we need him and a 4th rounder allows for such a pick...LC concussions bad we need some new bodies...my proj WR core:Coles,Cotchery, Smith, Stuckey, Monk...It allows for a multifaceted attack comprised of possesion recievers, YAC WR, leapers and size. With such a diverse attack it would help our play calling and design which to say the least has become flat. And it allows for a legitimate 5WR attack (My only fear is that McCareins will stay bc of his repor with Clemens

5)Dykes: Depth at DL. You could see where we need to adress the most. In reality this pick makes no sense, but I would just love to see 3 6'5'' 300+ DL inthe 34. Dykes is also a NT for WV and has shown versatility. We could use DL depth, OL depth, TE, RB depth, Spec. Teams Depth here.

6)Morton: NT stop gap measure if the Jets don't go out and get one or if they don't feel Dewayne just needs another big DE next to himlike Moore. Can't hurt to take him and see for depth. he fits the 34 NT bill...I really just can't project a 5th rd plus picks but I try fruitlessly anyway.

I really feel like the picks from 1st to 4th round can turn into starters. Its just a matter of getting those picks and seeing where we end up and how these workouts play out. We'll see...

Let me know some thoughts....Sorry about the dissertation of a post.

nvot9
11-19-2007, 02:14 PM
Really really against an ILB so early again, I'd doubt that happens...ESPECIALLY after going OLB right before...I'd prefer a Tackle/Guard there.

nvot9
11-19-2007, 03:47 PM
Does anyone know our cap situation for next year?

hcbrad08
11-19-2007, 04:14 PM
-Great Cap situation we're 10 million under right now. And if we unload some big salaries via trade or release we could have even more...I think we could go the route of 2 big FA (possibilities: Alan Faneca and Max Starks, Both steelers but seeing how they played yesterday you wonder...Both are proven Starks is 25 so that may allow us to take a WR or ILB higher if people object to NOT taking a RT or LG high)

-Why not draft ILB early? Is Barton a long term solution Inside? No, he's 31 and as I said in my post will only hold back the development of a true 34 which Mangini seems to be determined to do (Hobson is non existent in our D and should not try to move inside bc even though he has size he gets manhandled more than Vilma did) and is RT or LG worth using a 1st round pick on? Beau Bell is dominant and what other pressing needs that can be justified as 1st round picks do we need?

I guess I really don't understand your reasoning...Just bc we draft an OLB doesn't mean we can't draft an ILB with our next pick. Quality starters at places like RT and LG can be drafted in the 2nd and 3rd and you can go BPA earlier (according to need) Truely drafting Scheuning with the 2nd 1st rd is not viable bc he's does not garner a 1st round Grade. Gosder Cher from BC may be an option, but he's 6-7 310 and isn't the mauler we need on the right side for run blocking hes a poor mans dbrick and can't handle LT at BC whos line has been sucking it up recently so how will he handle RT in the pros. OT is a deep position in this years draft and OG could be addressed with Faneca in FA or a 2-3 rd pick IMO.

I might see drafting an Adarius Bowman with 1b but is tha t really a pressing need at this point in time? No. I was trying to build a stout front 7 with that mock and I think it not only addresses our needs in many area but does it well.

I guess I just want to here what you would do and why. Or at the very least an explination of why you wouldn't do that.

Please look up Beau Bell bc he is ridic and IMO the Groves of ILBs. His talent merits the pick




Side note:
I think he'll retire but Tedy Bruschi will be an UFA after this season...I actually hate him bc I think he's overrated (as his numbers jumped after Belichick's D was put in) but it seems like a slight possibility, Anyone think we sign him next year to act as a guide to Mangini's patriots esque 34 D at ILB. I dont want to but I think it would make headlines and thats what NY is all about so let me know.

derza222
11-19-2007, 04:42 PM
The only major question that jumps out to me about Bell is how well he can cover. If he covers well he's a good pick, but as it has been mentioned Harris has been a liability in coverage and although a run thumper would be great if we pick another guy that's not a good cover linebacker our ILB's would be a liability in coverage so I'd like to avoid that. No problem with taking ILB this year, though I think OLB, LG, RT, NT, DE, and even CB are more immediate needs at the moment depending on how free agency goes. Three big question marks that stand out to me are:

WR- If Coles retires, I really don't like our wideouts right now or for the future so it would need to be addressed IMO if that were to happen.

FS- How does Elam play the rest of the year? If he's subpar, a sick cover safety to let Rhodes roam around and wreak havoc on opposing offenses would be ideal IMO.

TE- If Baker gets the boot from Mangini I'm not sure I like this position for us, similar to WR. However, if the FO decides they like what they have I have no problem leaving the position be, but I do think it could be considered.

Movement at any of those positions this offseason could possibly open up a hole. Another question, what are we going to do with Bryan Thomas? Just hasn't been the same player he was last year, but we did extend him. Possibilities? Also, any chance we move Hobson inside?

BroadwayJoe10
11-19-2007, 07:43 PM
I knew we were under but i didn't know that it was 10. And add an additional 7 million cuase the cap is giong from 109-116 in '08 and we should have a good figure. I know chad is expected to cost 7.8 gainst the cap next year.

I am hoping that we get a first day for him, as he can still be an upgrade over a few starting qb's in this league. I also heard reports that the ravens were interested in vilma because they are most likely not going to resign ray lewis. I know some people think he is too undersized to play on their defense, but from what i heard they seem to think they have the type of dlineman that can keep the guards off of him in order for him to flourish. (i'll look for the site if i can find it again, it was some baltimore paper) Anyways, I think this would be a good draft to stockpile picks, because for dline cbs and oline its pretty solid for the first few rounds.

I also really like Beau Bell, but the only reason I wouldn't want him is becuase I have a huge guy crush on jasper brinkley. I just love the idea of jasper and david playing side by side. But Beau would be fantastic as well.

If we for some reason don't trade vilma or get an additional first rounder I would be extremely happy and practically ecstatic with;

1) Quentin Groves/Vernon Gholston
2) Dre Moore
3) Barry Richardson
4)Marcus Monk

I'm sure in a few months come draft day my opinion will change and people will be shifted around, but as of now I would be ecstatic with the 9 guys that you named

The Great Jonathan Vilma
11-19-2007, 10:04 PM
i haven't really been following this thread like i normally would, but i don't see Vernon Gholston's name appearing much. Do you guys not think that he would be a good fit at OLB or what? i really like him...

BroadwayJoe10
11-19-2007, 10:09 PM
i haven't really been following this thread like i normally would, but i don't see Vernon Gholston's name appearing much. Do you guys not think that he would be a good fit at OLB or what? i really like him...

I have been pushing groves like i was peddeling crack since the summer, but i am coming around to really liking vernon gholston. He really had me worried last weekend when he was pretty much MIA, but this weekend against michigan he was a force. I was very impressed and i feel both will be solid additions. I have faith in our FO scouting wise, as they have put together two very solid drafts thus far.

derza222
11-20-2007, 09:16 AM
Personally I'm not a huge Gholston fan for us, as I don't think he's quite as fluid as some of the other guys and dropping back into coverage may not be as easy for him. He'd be stepping in for Hobson, a natural linebacker. Thomas is a natural end, and I just think having two converted ends playing OLB in our defense would have them as huge liabilities in the passing game, especially a guy as huge as Gholston that I don't see moving around as well as a Groves or a Crable. Now maybe I'm wrong when agility drills come around, but those two guys seem to be better fits on the outside of our defense. That's just what I think right now, only time will tell.

BroadwayJoe10
11-20-2007, 03:52 PM
Personally I'm not a huge Gholston fan for us, as I don't think he's quite as fluid as some of the other guys and dropping back into coverage may not be as easy for him. He'd be stepping in for Hobson, a natural linebacker. Thomas is a natural end, and I just think having two converted ends playing OLB in our defense would have them as huge liabilities in the passing game, especially a guy as huge as Gholston that I don't see moving around as well as a Groves or a Crable. Now maybe I'm wrong when agility drills come around, but those two guys seem to be better fits on the outside of our defense. That's just what I think right now, only time will tell.


I have heard rumors that groves was not playing very well in the 3-4 this year, but i am not sure if it was due to his leg injury or what. I could only pray that he falls into the a lower round. I also would like to keep an eye out for tommy blake; he has all the physical talent, we just need to know whether he can mentally be an NFL player and not sucomb to the pressure.

I love groves, and am starting to like gholston more as well as crable. I have to watch more of all of them, but the thing is most of them don't drop back in coverage enough throughout the game to really get a feel.

derza222
11-21-2007, 09:45 AM
The upside to Crable is he does play linebacker, so while he blitzes a lot he does drop back a decent amount and you know he's fast enough to cover guys and it would appear he has the fluidity as well. If he's there in the second round I think that would be a really nice pick. And Groves is playing LB full time now so you can see how he's doing there. But at this point it's really tough to figure it out because we haven't seen how they all do in offseason workouts. Harvey from Florida is another possibility as well, it really depends on who comes out.

jmess15
11-21-2007, 01:27 PM
[QUOTE=derza222;710421]First of all, that was posted in July. Why are you referring to it now? Seems relatively pointless to me, because if you had any reading comprehension skills you would realize that portion of the post was purely speculation. At this point in time Pellot-Rosa is out of the picture because he clearly wasn't cut out to be a receiver. But who knew what we had in him at that point?

Sorry, I didnt realize you needed to be a Mensa member to post on this board. No need to insult people. In any event it does not matter when it was posted, to expect guys that were drafted that late (or not at all) to be your # 1 or # 2 receivers is a stretch. I like your posts and you certainly do your homework, but I think a lot of people on this site get caught up in college performances and combine workouts and automatically put people in the Pro-Bowl before they even make the team.

hcbrad08
11-21-2007, 01:45 PM
What are you talking about? If you're bringing up an argument on Pellet Rosa then please stop posting in this thread and go back to the general mock draft threads in the main forum. Are you really all that better criticizing the people who post here when you do it yourself? Its a forum there is going to be speculation, get over it. I get pissed with it too, but instead of coming in once a month and posting about old news I come in often and try to say things to the effect of a 7th rd pick at WR may be a stretch to become a #1 a #3 maybe #4 more likely. It's so easy to just come in and bash what people said months ago or even just say you're wrong with no explanation.

To end the discussion...Jesse-Pellet Rosa was so highly touted because at 6-4 with a basketball background (and great leaping ability) he was going to bring what a lot of people in this thread and 2008 what positions are we drafting thread have called for as something lacking in our Offense a big bodied reciever with leaping ability. He wasn't up to par so he was cut IN AUGUST! Get over it....

Point being, AS I'VE SAID 1000 TIMES WE NEED A BIG RECIEVER TO HELP CLEMENS DEVELOPMENT AND SOMEONE AS A SECURITY BLANKET IN THE REDZONE SO THAT FADE PASS ACTUALLY WORKS AND WE GET 3 TDS INSTEAD OF 3FGS (ALA STEELERS GAME). LOOK AT HOW IT HAS HELPED DEREK ANDERSON (WINSLOW, EDWARDS AND JUREVICIUS...IT PAYS TO HAVE SOMEONE WHOS BIG 64+NOT AVG 62 LIKE MCCAREINS) Marcus Monk comes to mind now not Jesse Pellet-Rosa

BroadwayJoe10
11-22-2007, 09:52 AM
Point being, AS I'VE SAID 1000 TIMES WE NEED A BIG RECIEVER TO HELP CLEMENS DEVELOPMENT AND SOMEONE AS A SECURITY BLANKET IN THE REDZONE SO THAT FADE PASS ACTUALLY WORKS AND WE GET 3 TDS INSTEAD OF 3FGS (ALA STEELERS GAME). LOOK AT HOW IT HAS HELPED DEREK ANDERSON (WINSLOW, EDWARDS AND JUREVICIUS...IT PAYS TO HAVE SOMEONE WHOS BIG 64+NOT AVG 62 LIKE MCCAREINS) Marcus Monk comes to mind now not Jesse Pellet-Rosa

I really cannot wait to see marcus monk at the combine. I remember reading that he was 6'6 and imediately started to ask questions about him on the forum, in which some people started to refer to him as a glorified skinny TE. However, he does provide the big body and quite the leaper that we would love. If only he had the type of potential that matt jones showed; but thats one of the biggest problems in pro sports. You can have all the potential in the world 6'6 4.3 40 and just have a poor work ethic and not even come close to what you should be.


Oh well, its thanksgiving; enjoy the greatest holiday of the year fellas and lets hope the J-E-T-S beats them cowboys(or as my grandpa has always called them "president killers")

Crickett
11-22-2007, 10:23 AM
Point being, AS I'VE SAID 1000 TIMES WE NEED A BIG RECIEVER TO HELP CLEMENS DEVELOPMENT AND SOMEONE AS A SECURITY BLANKET IN THE REDZONE SO THAT FADE PASS ACTUALLY WORKS AND WE GET 3 TDS INSTEAD OF 3FGS (ALA STEELERS GAME). LOOK AT HOW IT HAS HELPED DEREK ANDERSON (WINSLOW, EDWARDS AND JUREVICIUS...IT PAYS TO HAVE SOMEONE WHOS BIG 64+NOT AVG 62 LIKE MCCAREINS) Marcus Monk comes to mind now not Jesse Pellet-Rosa

It saddens me to think that the Jets could have drafted Brandon Marshall and took Brad Smith instead. Now, don't get me wrong, trick plays are all well and good, but Marshall would have been a huge upgrade over the overpaid underperforming waste of a second round draft pick that has been Justin McCareins.

BroadwayJoe10
11-22-2007, 06:23 PM
It saddens me to think that the Jets could have drafted Brandon Marshall and took Brad Smith instead. Now, don't get me wrong, trick plays are all well and good, but Marshall would have been a huge upgrade over the overpaid underperforming waste of a second round draft pick that has been Justin McCareins.

Ya besides all his off the field problems, he is a fantastic reciever. And for someone who has such great hands mccareins can't hold on to the ball to save his live.

hcbrad08
11-22-2007, 06:47 PM
Our LG and RT play was atrocious and our D-Line needs another big body...what else is new?

Hobson sucks
Chatham sucks (why was he covering witten)
Bowens Sucks
Ellis is not as bad as the others but not good either.

I stand by my draft needs with one change (Bell for Bowman...Our ILB play was alright and if the Jets bring back Vilma and or use Barton we would be alright...But I strill think Bell is ridiculous and should be looked at)

-Groves
-Bowman
-Moore
-Scheuning
-Richardson
-Terrell
-Monk

I heard somewhere that Coles may retire after this season...He hurt his ankle but someone said his concussions are taking a toll. Which is why I would advocate drafting Monk and Bowman... Two big guys to be a #1 and #3...McCareins GONE PLEASE (He continues to drop passes and build up my hate for him)
1)Bowman
2)Cotchery (As has been seen without Coles he can't be a #1)
3)Monk
4)Smith
5)Stuckey

Thoughts?

derza222
11-23-2007, 10:22 AM
I agree completely that WR becomes a big need if LC retires, nobody else is able to step into that #1 role for us. Two underclassmen that are interesting prospects if they come out are Darrius Heyward-Bey of Maryland and James Hardy of Indiana. Heyward-Bey is a redshirt soph wideout with great speed and pretty solid size at 6'2 and over 200 lbs. He had great numbers in the ACC with a better QB last year, but the Maryland QB situation is in disarray and they're really a running team, so Heyward-Bey might come out. Definitely has the tools but could have to be refined a bit. Hardy is a HUGE 6'7 leaper with above average speed that supposedly runs very good routes as well. He's been a real bright spot on a subpar Indiana team. I believe (and I'm not sure) that he may have played basketball for a little while for them as well. Not super quick obviously because of his height which gives him some trouble with getting jammed at the line, but as said runs pretty good routes and also has good hands so that helps to make up for it. Fantastic in the red zone obviously because of his height, not positive on his TD numbers but they're ridiculous. Definitely worth a look.

BroadwayJoe10
11-23-2007, 02:57 PM
I agree completely that WR becomes a big need if LC retires, nobody else is able to step into that #1 role for us. Two underclassmen that are interesting prospects if they come out are Darrius Heyward-Bey of Maryland and James Hardy of Indiana. Heyward-Bey is a redshirt soph wideout with great speed and pretty solid size at 6'2 and over 200 lbs. He had great numbers in the ACC with a better QB last year, but the Maryland QB situation is in disarray and they're really a running team, so Heyward-Bey might come out. Definitely has the tools but could have to be refined a bit. Hardy is a HUGE 6'7 leaper with above average speed that supposedly runs very good routes as well. He's been a real bright spot on a subpar Indiana team. I believe (and I'm not sure) that he may have played basketball for a little while for them as well. Not super quick obviously because of his height which gives him some trouble with getting jammed at the line, but as said runs pretty good routes and also has good hands so that helps to make up for it. Fantastic in the red zone obviously because of his height, not positive on his TD numbers but they're ridiculous. Definitely worth a look.


Heyward-Bey is a huge big play threat and has good hands, the only problem with him is he can have a huge game then dissaper becuase of the eratic QB play in maryland. And staying a year won't help him at all because i beleive theyre RBs are gone and there qb isn't getting any better. I think he deserves a look. I have never heard of this Hardy guy, but if he is that size (i'd like to know his weight as well) with good hands and can run routes thats a definite plus. It just has become extremely obvious with LC being absent we don't have anyone to step up. This is also do to KC being blitzed out of his mind against dallas (which will be adressed with a LG and RT), but there were a few balls that were dropped as well. AND there were also balls that were overthrown or thrown off target.


Edit: HCBRAD; everytime they mention marcus monk in the LSU arkansas game i just keep thinkin how great itd be to have a 6'6 reciever like that. They were just mentioning how if he was healthy he changes the defense so much. (edit: apparantly he is in the game, just wasn't in that one play)

derza222
11-24-2007, 08:31 AM
For a reference point here are James Hardy's stats for Indiana:

Freshman (10-11 games)
61 catches, 893 yards, 10 touchdowns

Sophomore (10 games)
51 catches, 722 yards, 10 touchdowns

Junior (through 12 games)
74 catches, 1,075 yards, 16 touchdowns


He's listed at 6'7 220 and played on the Indiana men's basketball team during the 04-05 season also. I think with his size he could be a great red zone threat, and he has the production to back it up with at least 10 touchdowns in every season and 16 this year. He redshirted his freshman year so he may be more likely to come out this season, but I think whether he comes out this year or next he's worth giving a long, hard look. Also should mention that I believe he had some off the field troubles, not positive on what they are or whether or not he had them but I believe he did.

hcbrad08
11-25-2007, 01:55 AM
After the LSU game I saw Monk and was unimpressed I need to see alot more to draft him...As for off the field problems Abram Elam was convicted of sexual assault at ND and hes on our team I think the Jets need to improve the team first and take a sour apple instead of just assuming he's rotten.

I like Hardy. I love his size and I think he plays fastern than he times. Wouldn't mind picking him.

Bowman Im pissed to hear he hurt his knee out until the bowl game if hes lucky maybe its not too bad and it will help us draft him.

I think WR is becoming more and more of a priority for the draft as this season moves along

I could see (not priority but the way it plays out bc of value: priorities:LG,RT,DE,OLB,WR...Almost the exact opposite of how it plays out)
-OLB
-WR (BIG ONLY)
-DE
-RT
-LG

Underclassmen OGs to watch: Duke Robinson, Steve Rehring
Bad OG class this year we need one of these two IMO. I would LOVE Duke Robinson.

Gang Green
11-26-2007, 01:26 PM
We need a gamebreaker, plain and simple. Something to spark the franchise- I would go with McFadden in round one and possibly Malcolm Kelly or Limas Sweed in round 2.

BroadwayJoe10
11-26-2007, 09:25 PM
We need a gamebreaker, plain and simple. Something to spark the franchise- I would go with McFadden in round one and possibly Malcolm Kelly or Limas Sweed in round 2.

I would agree that we need a game breaker, but I wouldn't say that it was for the reason of "sparking the franchise." We sell out every game even when we are losing. I truly believe that our fans (myself 100% included) would rather win more games than have OROY or a high powered offense that blows games to good defenses. Nothing makes players, coaches, fans and especially owners more happy than winning. And I feel that we can do this by better spending our draft picks. I love mcfadden, but i feel someone like gholston, groves, Tyson jackson would be better in the first round. I think dre moore is ideal in the 2nd round if he doesn't get drafted in the first round, but if we somehow get an additional 2nd both kelly and sweed are solid picks. I agree we could use someone to take on the #1 WR role becuase it is as clear as day that when LC isn't in there our recieving corp is lacking. Our Oline can definately be addressed in the 3rd and lower rounds and possibly free agency.

Right now our team would look a lot better with a draft such as
1)Gholston/Groves etc. or Tyson Jackson
2)Dre moore or Tommy Blake
3) Barry Richardson

That immediately helps the defense, as well as helps out the oline. Personally i feel that improving the oline is a higher priority than WR, becuase by improving the Oline you increase the run game and pass game more so than drafting WR. Anyways itll be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out and to see what we do with a lot of the players in the offseason.

hcbrad08
11-26-2007, 11:49 PM
I agree, as I've said elsewhere: Building a franchise comes from the trenches...We need a LG RT and RDE (NT too but none available). Getting a legit pass rusher could help the DL and WR is a priority just not even close to needs on the lines. I say our draft looks something like this based on where people are projecting to now.

-OLB
-RT
-DE
-WR
-LG

Also drafting a RB would be an awful move especially when it's a specialty runner/player and not a guy who does everything. Also McFadden runs ridiculously High at times, not that we should draft him but I want to see how hes graded come draft day bc he may fall considering the teams in the TOP 5 and their RB situations. Maybe OAK, but they have fargas whos been producing Lamont Jordan is on his way out but they drafted Michael Bush and may want to use that pick on one of their other 100 needs on offense.

BroadwayJoe10
11-27-2007, 12:16 AM
I agree, as I've said elsewhere: Building a franchise comes from the trenches...We need a LG RT and RDE (NT too but none available). Getting a legit pass rusher could help the DL and WR is a priority just not even close to needs on the lines. I say our draft looks something like this based on where people are projecting to now.

-OLB
-RT
-DE
-WR
-LG

Also drafting a RB would be an awful move especially when it's a specialty runner/player and not a guy who does everything. Also McFadden runs ridiculously High at times, not that we should draft him but I want to see how hes graded come draft day bc he may fall considering the teams in the TOP 5 and their RB situations. Maybe OAK, but they have fargas whos been producing Lamont Jordan is on his way out but they drafted Michael Bush and may want to use that pick on one of their other 100 needs on offense.


During thanksgiving my cousins and uncles (all who are big football fans) were discussing football and whatnot when one of my cousins brought up mcfadden. Everyone was in agreement that he is an outstanding talent and will be a good back in the NFL. However 3 very important points were brought up. (1) It seems like every year there is a can't miss once in a decade back. I have heard this statement three times in the last three years. Bush, Peterson and now McFadden. Granted all were superb talents in college and would be an asset to any team, however it seems pretty coincidental that in the last three years there was a once the once in a lifetime type talk from a group of people on this board, which then leads to comparing each one and what one is doing in the nfl compared to college etc.
(2) That what AD is doing is going to improve the stock of Dmac. This is true, everyone sees what type of talent he is and then looks at dmac and says wow this guy is bigger and faster imagine what he can do. I think this could cause some teams to jump up to take him. This is true to an extent; i feel what AD did this year could ultimately hurt Dmacs stock. Everyone knows what type of talent he is, but what good is it if he can't stay on the field. Sooner or later "freak accident" or not, he will be considered injury prone. I dont care if he dove into the endzone, and the LCL is the hardest ligament to tear, the bottom line is he is getting hurt. A lot of that is the way he runs; hard and upright. I think this couls ultimately get people thinking that even tho he is this good there is the chance he wont be able to play long enough to prove how good he is. (3) That running backs are a dime a dozen. My cousin went to point out Shannahan and the broncons etc. I wouldnt go as far as saying they are a dime a dozen, but I would say that certain systems can make a 1000 yard rusher much easier than a system can make a 10+ sack DE or a RT who allows 0 sacks.

The point I am trying to make is you have to look at what addition right now would give the jets a better chance of winning. TJ has shown he can be a very solid back, but there is a reason he isn't excelling like he was in chicago. It isn't his lack of talent, (terrible play calling aside) but 2/5 of our oline being terrible and not having a consistent passing attack. You can see that enhancing the oline (LG & RT) would have a ripple effect that in my eyes would easily outweigh getting dmac. (however i could be wrong)

The games our secondary has looked the best as been the games were wehave gotten after the qb and vice versa. The pitt game was a good example. Our secondary played well which allowed for a good pass rush. And when the pass rush was excellent our secondary looked that much better. I just feel that adding a big DE and a pass rushing OLB will once again have a ripple effect on the rest of the defense.

Basically it is what most people on here are saying; build from the inside out. If you have a solid oline and dline you are gonna win more than you lose.

hcbrad08
11-27-2007, 02:25 AM
-Well put...I agree. Things start from the inside out and that is really how Champs are born not with Franchise QBs and RBs look at guys like Marino and Tomlinson. They are great to have on your team but only if you can protect them and have a D demolish the protection for theother team.

-Additionally, The jets RB Situation IMO looks bright. TJ despite th offensive woes is on pace to have 1,100 yards and 0 TDs (thats the offensive aenemia) Leon is underutilizied and theyre trying to run him between the tackles too much and I think the jets got a steal in Danny Ware and he will be used more next year and moving forward. I liked his running style and he looked like he had good vision. Also, considering they're style why would the Jets bring in another RB when they have that kind of depth and potential.

BLOCKING BLOCKING BLOCKING
I hate to say it but losing Kendall was a big step backwards...in the long run maybe it works out BUT he was prductive and I think they could have compromised on a deal with him as a STOP GAP ++ measure at LG and then drafted a RT in the draft. maybe theyre gonna push hard for faneca and or starxs and address sexy talent in the draft, but other than specullation no evidence remains to be seen.

FAs to watch for OL
T-Max Starxs (Pitt)
G-Alan Faneca (Pitt)
T/G-Stacey Andrews (Cin)
G- Ryan Lilja (Ind)
G-Floyd Womack (Sea)
G-Jake Scott (Ind)

FAs to watch for DL
DE/OLB-Jared Allen (KC)
DE/OLB-Justin Smith (Cin)
DE-Albert Haynesworth (Ten)
DE-Tommy Kelly (Oak)
DE-Randy Starks (Ten)

I think the only way we have a really sexy draft is if we address OL and DL in FA...Thoughts on these guys? Who would you like? Who would you hate to see signed (hate personally, think player overated etc whatever)?
Lets hear it.

Gang Green
11-27-2007, 02:56 PM
The Jets never make a splash in the free agent market because honestly, who wants to come to a mediocre team that plays in the worst stadium in the league? I love the idea of drafting Vernon Gholston in the first round but I question if he is really worth a top 10 pick. I still would be ecstatic with getting DMAC with our first pick even if we don't get a first-rate offensive lineman. Jake Long joining the Green & White would be a waste as he will be at a different level from D'Brickashaw.

BroadwayJoe10
11-27-2007, 03:28 PM
I was just reading that Tommy Blake is weighing in around 270lbs. I am attributing this to him missing 4 games this year, but from what I read he has been learning to play with the extra weight on his frame. I am not sure whether or not he is planning on keep this as hisplaying weight or dropping back down to the 255ish he was at earlier in the year. Either way, he is definately someone to keep our eye on. The jets had sent scouts to his practice at the beginning of this year, so no one is questioning his football ability. It is just his mentality that needs to be judge. I have a feeling he is going to be a steal come draft time.

derza222
11-27-2007, 09:23 PM
Just for fun, say we had the number three pick and were forced to pick a player (no trade down). What would your big board of 3 players be? I don't really think we'll have a top 3 pick, but am more curious what 3 players at the top of this draft everyone would like the most on this team, and why.

Gang Green
11-27-2007, 09:43 PM
1. Glenn Dorsey- If we want to play the 3-4 effectively, a bonafide run stopper that can clog the middle and demand double teams from offensive linemen is a huge key.

2. Darren McFadden- Quite simply the biggest playmaker in the draft, which is just what the Jets seriously need.

3. Jake Long- I would personally feel bad for him as I do believe that he will be better than D'Brick but the coaching staff will put Long at RT.

BroadwayJoe10
11-27-2007, 11:47 PM
1. Glenn Dorsey- If we want to play the 3-4 effectively, a bonafide run stopper that can clog the middle and demand double teams from offensive linemen is a huge key.

2. Darren McFadden- Quite simply the biggest playmaker in the draft, which is just what the Jets seriously need.

3. Jake Long- I would personally feel bad for him as I do believe that he will be better than D'Brick but the coaching staff will put Long at RT.

I agree that we need a bonafide run stopper that can clog the middle and demand double teams, but i definately do not think that dorsey would be the right guy. He is too much like drob for my liking; pretty much the same guy. Both are too undersized to play NT and were highly touted coming out of college. Drob was touted as the next warren sapp. I personally feel that even though dorsey is one of the best defensive players in college this year he benefited from playing next to Tyson Jackson and others. I think it is definately too high for jackson, but i love the guy.

If we do end up with the third overall pick than I would have to agree that Dmac is on on the list even though i feel we have more pressing needs. I dont like investing that much money on a player, but if we can't trade down and there is no one worth taking than he is up there.

I am going to go on scotts word that chris long is play at 280 and has the ability to add 10 pounds. If chris long could play at 6'4 290+ he would definately be the ideal pick.

Quentin Groves/Vernon gholston. I have to see them at the combine and the last game they play this year, but both of them are top 10 picks in my mind and would probably be a reach at 3 but are on my big board.

Gosh; third overall is a tough place to be as far as our needs. I would ideally like to trade down, but that is such a tough thing to predict. So i'll list the players i would like, but they aren't in any order just a group of players.

Chris Long (i am gong on scotts word and want him only if he can play at 290+, a legit 290+)

Tyson Jackson - Ideal 3-4 DE and i really am high on this guy.

Quentin Groves/Vernon Gholston - top OLB/DE tweeners. (also depending on who we get in the 1st i do like tommy blake a lot)

So basically what I am trying to say is i am glad i am not in the position of the FO because it is definately not going to be an easy decision.

hcbrad08
11-28-2007, 02:21 AM
Its actually a lot harder choice here than they will have bc come draft day a trade down will probably make a lot more sense considering were not gonn ahve a #3 pick and no one we;re looking at around 5 will fit unless Groves or someone wows. We'll see good question though...IMO I think Chris Long would have to be the pick if we had to pick at 3 bc he could put on a little weight and then be versatile enough to play in a 43 set too. BTW Virginia plays in a 34 and he plays end so he knows the ins and outs of the position.

Also I think the Jets will have to make a splash in FA in order to improve the team soon. I really find it hard to believe that people hate coming to NY:the biggest market for money bc its a bad stadium when theyre building a new one and Giants stadium is considered one of the better playing surfaces in football (KICKERS hate it bc of the wind thats really all)

IMPACT FA/Trades coming to NY (there are more)
-Thomas Jones (Loved the move)
-Curtis Martin (Wanted to come to the NY despite success NE)
-Pete Kendall
-Vinny Testaverde
For those of you who were at Jets games when you were 5 like me Here are some OLD SCHOOL BIG NAMES WHO CAME TO NY WHEN THE TURF WAS BAD
-Ronnie Lott
-Art Monk

Its all about $$$$$$ not about the players prediliction for the stadiums appearance. Also its about the people doling out money and I think the Jets next year will realize they need to overhaul parts of the team and in order to have an effective draft they will need to hit up the FA market.
Great article in the Daily News about a week ago before Pittsburg about how the Jets couldnt really make a lot of changes last offseason after an impressive 10-6 season AND they always were talking abotu bringing back 20 or 21 of 22 starters or something which this lead this reporter to believe they were almost trying to convince people they were going to be good something a lot of good teams dont do. At first with mangini the Jets brought in a lot of new fcaes 10 via the draft andremovedkey players like Mawae and Ty Law. Then had they had a great season and it would have been suspect to make a lot of changes. Had they stunk as expected it would have been easier to unload guys that were left over and not Mangini's guys almost like college scouting (the charlie weis defense). The article basically said after this terrible season look for familar faces to be gone such as Pennington and Vilma. Also that a lot more changes could be made and that the Jets despite having a lot of problems with offensive production will probably look to bolster the defense first. I tend to think its a good theory and probably going to prove true.

I agree except with the defense first thing I dunno, if its FA I could see us making a pickup on offense first and in the draft we could snag a OL first its very possible depending on where we pick and if we trade. Who knows? Just thoughts

derza222
11-28-2007, 01:01 PM
Depending on how Chris Long weighs in, I'd want one of the Long's or McFadden at that spot. I think the worst weight for Chris is around 280, since if he runs well at around 270 and does well in agility drills we COULD try and convert him to defensive end, but there's nothing we could do with him at 280. One downside is he doesn't have the frame to add much weight, so we'll see how things pan out with him but he's either a guy we're going to go after like crazy or we'll completely ignore.

I love Jake Long's attitude and toughness, even though with cap figures it's not good I'd love to have him on the line because of his physical ability and leadership. It'd be amazing if he slipped to us picking in the 5, 6 range.

McFadden is obviously a fantastic player but I have reservations of how he'd do in a more regular scheme as well as how he'd do running behind this line. If available he'd be really tough to pass on but I think we have bigger needs and although I wouldn't be particularly angry if we picked him, I wouldn't be all that happy either.

A dark horse I'd consider is Malcolm Jenkins, especially in the 4-6 range but even maybe at 3. If there isn't any good scheme fit I wouldn't have much of a problem reaching for Jenkins even though we took Revis last year because solidifying our corner spot would be great for us. All of the elite AFC teams (or most of them) have 2 VERY good wideouts so to get to that level and match up well having two very good corners would be great. Jenkins wouldn't be all that bad of a pick IMO.

Vernon Gholston would be nice if he tests out well, but BroadwayJoe has me warming up to Tommy Blake in the second, especially if Dre Moore goes late first to a team like the 49ers. I wouldn't mind a corner/OLB combo in rounds one and two, be it Gholston/a guy like Cason that could slip because of his forty, or a Jenkins/Blake combo. Though I must admit, even though it's tough to take a right tackle that high, Jake Long is probably my favorite player for us in this draft.

BroadwayJoe10
11-28-2007, 04:55 PM
So it seems as though most people are in agreement that if we are indeed the 3rd overall pick, we have a lot of stock invested into how long weighs in and performs at the combine. I am not sure how i feel about it, however I will compile a convincing argument for him as we already know a lot of the knocks against him.

- I view chris long as the best defensive player in the draft (sorry dorsey) and I hate not being able to select the best defensive player in the draft because he doesn't fit our scheme. I think, even though we didn't do it with vilma, that we make the scheme fit him. He could be a jack-of-all-trades who can line up in a 3-4 and 4-3 DE and OLB. I didn't see mangini doing that with vilma, but if he hand picks Long I think he might be more inclined to doing so.

My next question is whether or not he has the ability to drop into coverage? I've heard rumors that they might make him play OLB. Obviously his 40 time and most importantly his agility drills will be highly scrutinized. I dont like the idea of selecting a guy in the top 5 and changing his role, but if it happened our defense doesn't have both our OLB drop into coverage. Thomas doesn't get enough credit for his ability to cover (he runs a 4.5) and blowing up plays which allows for others to make a play on the ball. I know he has been silent at getting to the QB, but the last couple weeks i have actually seen him blow up a few blockers so that harris could get to the QB. In this case long would take hobsons spot, but i would rather just keep Long as strictly a DE.


The next question is obviously his size and whether he has enough of an impact to overcome the horrible fact that, if we picked him, our D-line would still be undersized? The one thing people never mention when talking about Long and his size is that; He plays with excellent leverage, is strong as an ox and has quite possibly the best hand-placement and footwork that ive seen in a DE in a while.

Bottom Line is it is going to be very important what he weighs in at and his agility drills. I am not sure i am sold on taking long, but i think a convincing argument can be made for our against him. I think it also is very important how Dre Moore (whos size isn't going to be a problem) and other DE's perform at the combine. If we feel our defense will be better with a Chris Long & whoever in the 2nd round than a say Gholston in the first & whoever in the second thats what we will go with.

Gang Green
11-28-2007, 05:11 PM
What do you think of trading Vilma for another top 10 selection? Harris has already proven that he can be more effective in the 3-4.

derza222
11-28-2007, 05:23 PM
What do you think of trading Vilma for another top 10 selection? Harris has already proven that he can be more effective in the 3-4.

I highly, highly doubt we're going to get a top 10 selection for Vilma. I'm pretty sure the consensus here is that trading him is fine and probably the most likely scenario, but I really see no way we get a top 10 pick for a guy who has underperformed the past few seasons (regardless of the scheme fit) and is coming off a season ending knee injury. We should've dealt him last offseason, I think we missed our window to get something really good in return for him.

hcbrad08
11-28-2007, 05:42 PM
Honestly Long is 275 I'll stake my life that he weighs that right now but people trian for the combine and certain things so we'll see, I know he likes to ue overhand swim moves a lot and Howie Long said I dont think i evr used those so he's a different player tha I was and I really just tried to be a dad instead of a coach. His play is predicated on speed for his size adn strength, why would we draft Chris Long if we have a 280 guy now who is damn good at the NFL level in a 43 in Shaun Ellis who I think Long is like. Not that Longs career isnt projected to be better it is it just bothers me to think wow lets cut Ellis and draft Long to be even more udnersized (he really doesnt fit our system. He's Aaron Kampman but only if he plays in a 43 at DE. If he runs a sub 4.7 forty and has comprable agility drills I think its possible [Merriman was the same height and weight and ran a 4.69 LOOK AT HOW THAT WORKED OUT THEY SAID IF HE SWITCHED TO LB IT WOULD B ILB] if Long can match his numbers there he would be my pick in a heartbeat and be our insane physcho murderer on defense KEEP PRAYING for that).

I wouldn't mind and probably prefer taking Jake Long for RT over a skilled position here bc then we'd have ridiculous OL for a LONG (pundt) time. Esp if we went in FA and spent money to sign Faneca the line would be Brick, Faneca, Mangold, Moore, Long (anyone else think that stacks up ridiculously against any DL) As of now I say Chris Long though

Should we trade Vilma which is probable and get a 1st or 2nd rounder for him I think it would be easy to continue a draft plan of building inside out and still getting some play makers.

-Long (OLB)
-Cherilus (RT)
-Sweed (WR)
-Okam (DE)
-McDuffie (LG)
-Terrell (CB)

Long = Beast
Cherilus=Lineman U
Sweed=Value Playmaker in the 2nd
Okam=Moore is gone at this point and Okam is big enough and molded to play DE in 34
McDuffie=Big guard and a converted DT like Moore considered one of the best Gs in the ACC (weak class so thats why he slipps I want FA OG so thats why its a lower priority)
Terrell=Could pssibly be the best CB on the national champion team. Good size speed helps with depth and we can finally cut Barrett and Dyson. I think he could be a #2 at least a nickel.

Let me know

Gang Green
11-28-2007, 06:02 PM
I think I'm the only one that believes drafting the second-coming of Aaron Kampan/Kyle Vanden Bosch would be a huge waste of a number three pick. I know these two are proven pass rushers in the NFL but they aren't the best of the best. I would rather take a DE in round 2 and one of Dorsey/Long/DMC in round 1. There are plenty more good defensive ends that we can get in the later rounds that might end up being stars (Bruce Davis, Saint-Dic(k)<--Fuc k MSU)

genom
11-28-2007, 07:47 PM
Gang Green: Why is Chris Long drawing comparisons to Kampan and Vanden Bosch. Speed, strength, size, technique? Or simply race, and position?

BroadwayJoe10
11-28-2007, 07:59 PM
I think I'm the only one that believes drafting the second-coming of Aaron Kampan/Kyle Vanden Bosch would be a huge waste of a number three pick. I know these two are proven pass rushers in the NFL but they aren't the best of the best. I would rather take a DE in round 2 and one of Dorsey/Long/DMC in round 1. There are plenty more good defensive ends that we can get in the later rounds that might end up being stars (Bruce Davis, Saint-Dic(k)<--Fuc k MSU)

I don't mind getting a DE in the second round, but I dont understand how you can say that drafting Long with our first rounder would be a waste of a pick (becuase if i can infer why you dont think he'll suceed is his size, and i could be wrong so correct me if i am) but picking dorsey would just be placing yet another undersized guy on the dline. Dorsey is in my eyes the exact same player that Drob was. I am praying that Long either weighs in and can maintain a 290+ or liek hcbrad said that he runs a sub 4.7 and solid cone drills than he could be one hell of an OLB.

derza222
11-28-2007, 08:35 PM
I'm thinking the OLB is more likely but I'd be happy as hell with either. I think he'd be unbelievable at either spot in the 3-4 provided he had the right measurables to play it.

BroadwayJoe10
11-28-2007, 08:51 PM
If anything, I have grown to trust the FO on the top end of the draft these last two years. Dbrick and Mangold are solid so far and Revis and Harris have been solid. I firmly believe that if mangini wants Chris Long, it is becuase he knows that he can use him. Mangini didn't choose Drob, or ellis. He may be stubborn, but he atleast knows what fits and doesn't fit in his system. If he chooses Chris Long, it is going to be the right decision. I just don't want to get my hopes up on anybody encase we win end up with a higher pick than 3 (which doesnt bother me in the slightest, becuase you never try to lose..ever. Nothing bad comes from winning.) I just hate getting one certian player in my mind then have him go somewheres else; kinda like how i felt about Alama-francis last year. This year i feel i'm getting like that towards Dre moore and tommy blake for some reason.

Gang Green
11-28-2007, 09:36 PM
What I was previously saying is that I don't want to draft the next Aaron Kampman with the # 3 overall pick. I know he is a heck of a player but I would be tighter than your mom's puss y if we don't take D-Mac.

BroadwayJoe10
11-28-2007, 10:32 PM
I see we have a big mcfadden fan haha. I have no problems with someone wanting him, not everyone is going to want the same players in the draft. I just have faith in our team's talent evalutation thus far.

And joking or not, the whole mother thing is just a bad idea in a football forum full of a bunch of guys. I know its just a saying and i know u weren't talking about my mother, but someone whos not as easygoing could be a hardass about it.

But back to the whole first round choice. I have looked up combine results of two of the best OLBs in the NFL; Merriman, Ware. Demarcus ware's combine results; 6'4 251 lbs 40 yard dash (4.56 combine * 4.52 proday) his 3-cone drill was 6.85. Merriman was 6'4 272 and ran a 4.62 40 at his proday. I also looked up Paul Posluszny, Lawrence Timmons and Patrick Willis. All three are required to drop back into coverage.

Poz: 6'1 238 40 - 4.7 and 6.94 three cone drill.
Timmons: 6'1 234 40 - 4.66 and 6.92 three cone drill
Willis: 6'1 242 40 - 4.51 and 7.23 three cone drill

I am beginning to see that if long comes in at 265ish runs a sub 4.7 which I beleive he is capable of doing than we may just have our OLB on our hands. If he is an outside linebacker than he most likely will take the place of hobson and let bryan thomas drop back into coverage. Apparantly I was a little too quick to judge the nfl insider who said that the jets were very high on moving Long to OLB.

Gang Green
11-29-2007, 05:29 AM
That is a very good point, however I have only heard the idea of moving Long to OLB from this team discussion. Is this idea flying around NFL teams as well?

BroadwayJoe10
11-29-2007, 09:03 AM
It's been brought up in the main forums a number of times, but it always drops out due to the hundreds of new threads everyday. It was also speculated that "nflinsider" said there was someone in the jets FO that they are in love with chris long and could possibly move him there depending on his combine and workout results. However, I think he could very well be off the field when we pick if we pick around 6ish, but i guess only time will tell. Hcbrad had a good scenario in hoping to trade down if Dmac and Chris long were all gone and we dont like the idea of taking a RT in the top 5. It is a very ideal scenario.

Gang Green
11-29-2007, 02:35 PM
In that case, I would rather take Long as an outside linebacker than McFadden, but I don't think he is going to switch positions-usually players taken that early aren't forced to change.

Here is the remaining schedule and my predictions.
Miami-Win
Cleveland-Loss
NE-Loss
Ten-Loss
KC-Win

This gives us a 4-12 record which should be around the 4th or 5th pick. Honestly the remaining games will be a win-win situation. If we win, great, if we lose, we have a better chance at drafting an elite player which is even better.

hcbrad08
12-10-2007, 01:34 AM
4 weeks in a row we have unsuccessfully attempted the fade pass to the corner of the Endzone...This week however we put our biggest and tallest reciever in Chris Baker out there who showed moderate ups and has shown great hands his entire career and we still couldn't convert. If that is our go to play in the red zone then we need a big WR (I think Mangini is trying to convert us into the New York Patriots...bc the NE Pats love that play) Regardless we've used this on 4th down in the redzone twice this season and almost everytime we've been in the redzone and haven't scored we've tried it (hell it worked for 2tds against NE week 1 but it was pennington and his world famous 10 yard "deep route" with touch) anyway the point I'm trying to make is that if the Jets don't see drafting a 6'4 to 6'5 WR with great jumping ability as a priority esp with Braylon Edwards jumping over Revis twice in one game then I don't know what team they are watching. I don't want anyone under 6'4'' I don't care if they have a 90 inch vertical (you know what I mean) Malcolm Kelly, Adarius Bowman, Limas Sweed (in order of desire) Thoughts?

derza222
12-10-2007, 10:10 AM
I agree except James Hardy>Bowman and Sweed. Also wouldn't mind seeing a TE (Rucker?) and a guy like Earl Bennett in the early second because I think Bennett really fits the mold of our wideouts, he's just a little short. I think Bennett has the potential to be a really good player. I just don't know how we'd get a Kelly/Hardy type because they should go in round 1 and we'd have to make a deal to grab them. It'd be great if Bowman slipped due to injury and speed questions and we grabbed him in the third, or Hardy slipped to the early second and we grabbed him there.

BroadwayJoe10
12-10-2007, 04:15 PM
Agree 100% on drafting a tall WR and there are going to be a half dozen taken early this year. Which leads me to my next point. I know there are many things that we would like to shore up this coming draft, some of which may be able to be addressed in free agency. I just read the rankings and we currently sit 10th with the most money, this coming offseason, under the cap. We will be roughly 27 million under it. A couple teams to pay attention to; the colts are only 8 million under and have two guards to sign, so i bet one of them will be released. I am not sure how big i am on faneca anymore, but i do like max starks. Also, if we do move any players we'll prolly take a cap hit there, but after signing our draft picks we will most likely still be a good amount under.

I think we could start a top guys to go after list;
Randal Gaay - he is just 25 and i think he is going to be high on our list. We need a CB to play opposite revis, and personally I feel *** would be perfect for that role. Plus, we already tried to land him earlier in the year.

I don't expect us to land any of the bigg players; one, i think haynesworth will be resigned by tennessee, who is the team with the most cap space ~40 mill. I don't think we will be going for suggs either, thats just my opinion. I like asante samuel, but even though the jets showed interest in him ths year when he was franchised, i am not sure we will pay him the money, but who knows.

The next guy i'm gonna mention has a great frame and motor to play the 3-4 DE, but i just think hes too old right now. Paul Spicer 6'4 295, and the irony that he hurt chad would just kinda be wierd.

Offensive line
Ryan Lilja or Jake Scott - if i had to take my guess which one the colts would let go, it would be lija. Lilja is a bit light at 290ish, but he is a good player and relatively young.

Max Starks - Starks is probably my favorite FA to go after besides randall ***; at 25 he is young and massive. He’s right around 6’7 330. I think he might end up getting the biggest contract, but becuase he's so young it can be spread out.

If we could come away with Randall ga*y (apparantly you can't say **** on here) and Max Starks, I think our team would have a lot more flexibility in the draft. Plus, that would give us size on the Oline, and a LG away from being a top oline.

derza222
12-10-2007, 04:47 PM
I think signing Starks would be great for our team, and a corner like G*y would be good too but I wonder if it doesn't just make sense to see if one of our corners steps up as a good #2 next year and if not draft a guy in '09 (or take a late round flier on a guy this year) as opposed to giving a proven guy money now. We're a couple of years away anyway IMO, so we can afford to wait. Starks would be huge though because all we'd need is a LG, Duke Robinson anyone? I think if we did sign Starks, and possibly regardless, and Robinson comes out we should do all it takes to get him. He's used to working with a LT in Loadholt and is just a great player. Starks and Robinson give us a VERY good and very young offensive line, Moore being the oldest player. We could then protect Clemens and run block better near the goal line.

Now if you guys had to put together some needs that were in some sort of order, perhaps in tiers, where do they go? The more I've thought about it, needs like DE have been slightly overstated, a DE would be great if a good one is available but it's not like we need one badly enough to reach for one. Each tier is in no particular order, let me know what you think.

Tier 1 (must be addressed at some point in FA or draft if a player fits):
LG
RT
WR
NT
OLB

Tier 2 (would be nice to have but could wait a year and don't really need an elite guy yet):
DE
ILB
CB

Other positions I could see us looking for, day 2 possibly are a big back for short yardage/goal line, a big TE with hands for red zone, backup S, backup QB, backup OL/DL. And NT was tricky to place because it really is a Tier 1 need but I don't see any guys that make sense to address it with.

BroadwayJoe10
12-10-2007, 05:48 PM
I'm not so sure i have a firm grasp on the order of our needs right now. I still want to see how the rest of the season pans out. I for a long time was thinking DE and OLB was a #1 need and I still think so but it is going to depend on the draft. I think if we can trade down and nab two guys great; if so i would definately like malcolm kelly or James hardy and than who knows how far gholston or groves. Becuase, tommy blake could bring himself back into the pitcure and would allow us to not go gholston with our first.

I still can't put a order of them, but i think LG WR OLB and RT are our biggest needs. obviously NT, but we know the problem with that in the draft. And DE and CB are still up there as well.

That is why i really feel with a signing of starks and gaay would benefit our team not only by getting 2 quality starters, but giving us flexibility in the draft to go after the WR OLB DE.

hcbrad08
12-12-2007, 07:28 PM
I dont think we need to draft a de if we can sign albert haynesworth

hed be a great 34 DE he has the height and weight to excel its a question of speed and yes he can move (look at the vid). I think he can make a HUGE differnce at 66 320 and 27 years old he be a great signing and well worth it. It could if hes a huge impact remove our need for a NT bc he may help Dewayne enough.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ch&pli ndex=7

bad video but it shows all you need to see when they zoom in. I dont care if hes stunting or bull riushing he can and will handle Tackles and double teams.

Im actually really hoping we go after him hard. Heres our DLine

Haynesworth-320
Robertson-315
Coleman- 310

WIth that Dline (theyre all big but they can all move) the 34 could work very well IMO. It would also let us address needs better via the draft in terms of what positions we need and are strong in the draft.

FA wishlist
-A. Haynesworth
-A. Faneca
no more

backup wishlist
-M. Starxs
-T. Brayton
-R. Lilja

-

gang_green03
12-12-2007, 08:39 PM
Haynesworth is at the top of my wishlist as well. I'd like to try him at NT first though. Judging him off this season he could be very effective there and everyone knows that's what we need most.

derza222
12-12-2007, 09:31 PM
My BIG question with Haynesworth is will he resort to his old ways after this season? He hasn't been nearly as good in other seasons, and this is a contract year...raises some question marks. Not that he's been bad by Bryan Thomas hasn't been the same guy he was during his breakout season last year. I'd rather not have a guy die down after getting a contract and tie up our money again like has happened before. Plus it's going to cost a lot of money to get him and getting tied up in a bidding war (tons of teams are going to be after this guy) is never good. Who knows though. Just saying it's not quite a slam dunk...

hcbrad08
12-12-2007, 10:18 PM
naw he cant be a NT hes too tall and not built for what we need. 66 320 is not like vince wilfork who is 62 325 its alot more poundage per inch and that is the foundation of a stout NT. I know people can have good technique and all but there are specifications for positions...Just like it is a liability to have a 5'11' QB it is not a fit to have a 6'6'' NT in a 34

Haynesworth looked great off the edge in SD, he is a pass rusher which is better for the DE position in a 34. D Rob would benefit from him playing DE. If you put haynesworth at NT you displace drob and ellis if you want to move d rob to DE. It doesnt make that much sense.

As far as a bidding war I think if its market value and we have the room (which we should) we should go for it bc Hayensworth hasnt played as well as in other seasons but his stats werent as good last year bc he stomped a guys face in and was suspended. I think hes huge and still young and has 3 to 4 pro bowl years in him. At his age hes not too risky. Also Bryan Thomas position is much more dependent on other people, if haynesworth was brought in to be a huge lde our OLBs could get around the edges easier.

Like I said
Haynesworth and Coleman are both over 65 and 310 thats some stopping you have to do which frees up OLB unlike shaun ellis at 65 285 much smaller and doesnt command double teams.

We'll see I think it helps out draft situation tremendously if we do it which is why i posted it in this forum.

Crickett
12-13-2007, 12:10 AM
The person at the top of my wishlist is Alan Faneca.
After that is a wide receiver. Almost anyone with starting experience would do. Doug Gabriel. Bryant Johnson. Todd Pinkston. Eddie Berlin. Someone to replace Justin McCareins.

derza222
12-13-2007, 10:42 AM
My point was if Haynesworth gets lazy after a fat contract which I don't think is unlikely, we're screwed. If he comes in and he's good that's awesome and he's huge for our defense, but there's definitely a risk factor there and he's not a slam dunk by any stretch of the imagination. There's a high ceiling but a low floor to that sign IMO, and if he doesn't pan out it's going to really set this franchise back.

As much as signing huge free agents seems nice, it's just not what we do. Give me a Doug Gabriel, a Randall ***, and a guy that's a backup now but has good 3-4 DE potential, a Max Starks, a Justin Smiley, (like Coleman last year when we got the thumbs up from Parcells), a bunch of good but not great guys that know their roles and will do a good job on this team. I think we will continue to sign mid-level free agents and draft guys that we are going to build our team around.

I mean imagine what signing even just a LG, a former backup DE, and a #2 corner would do for us. There's a ton of RT potential in this draft so that doesn't have to be an area of focus, same with 3-4 OLB and a big WR. So instead of reaching for guys or giving up our whole draft for Duke Robinson, we can stand pat and take good players at those spots. Not having so many needs going into this draft would be exciting and could really set us up great, I'd rather sign a bunch of good players that fill needs than one huge guy (Haynesworth, Suggs) and then not have as much money to fill our other needs, giving us more needs going into the draft.

Similar thing with Faneca, though not as much. I just think as much as he'd be great, a younger alternative that's going to come cheaper and reach his peak in the next few years instead of decline makes more sense. Not sure how Justin Smiley is playing for the 49ers, but a guy like that makes more sense than Faneca IMO because he's just so much younger and you're going to be spending a decent amount of money on both so why not go for the younger guy? Not like we're a left guard away from playing in the Super Bowl next year anyways.

I just think it makes more sense to be patient and build a long-term team when that's really our best shot to compete anyways. We have a team that, if they stick together, could peak in about 5 years with D'Brick, Mangold, Clemens (if he sticks), Rhodes, Revis, Harris, all of these guys just coming into their primes. I think if we're competitive for now and let these guys develop and build a team around them for the next few years once we get to that point we'll be better off. It's hard to wait but I'd rather go through the motions of a developing team and make the Super Bowl and really compete for a few years than be a perennial competitor and never make it to the big game or win it.

hcbrad08
12-13-2007, 11:32 AM
My point was that if everyone worried about FA getting lazy no one would get signed period. let alone be signed and be great. If you are wary of signing any FA bc you are afriad theyll slack when you give them a contract whats to prevent a 1st rd draft pick from slacking too. If you look at players that way then you have to assume all will act that way. Also Haynesworth is young and would be a young force on the team with the 6 "CORE" players you mentioned.

6 players out of 22 offensive and defensive starters is not a great core thats 3 good players on O and D and 8 playerss that are secondary guys. I just think we need more impact players and not give second rate players like David Bowens contracts bc then if they slack off their production though expected to limited anyway is non existent and even more of a waste.

FA is a gameble but so is the draft. I think Hayensworth has proven himself and at 26 the floor doesnt just fall out. Hes been consistent his entire career the only thing up this year is his sacks and I dont think hes playing too different from years past. Based on size hes a prototypical 34 DE I think he could be a force in our defense. I hope tennesse lets him pass and we sign him.
I guess I dont get what personality trait you see in Haynesworth that you donrt see in other players.

derza222
12-13-2007, 11:44 AM
I've seen Haynesworth as an underachiever until this season. That worries me, because this is a contract year. Whenever somebody's production goes way up in a contract year and they've always had the talent to produce like that, it raises red flags. Pretty simple.

hcbrad08
12-13-2007, 12:11 PM
I havent seen him as an underacheiever and his stats and play hasnt skyrocketed this season. Look at the stats and how hes played against the big teams.

derza222
12-13-2007, 01:09 PM
All I'm saying here is that signing Haynesworth is not a slam dunk by any stretch. Could it be huge? Sure. But to say that signing a guy who is having by far is best stastical season of his career and playing by far the best football in his career in a contract season does not come with serious risk is ridiculous. Especially with a guy like Haynesworth that hasn't been Mr. Squeaky Clean his entire career. There's serious downsides here. Is he playing for the contract? Can he stay on the field? I'm pretty sure he's never played in all 16 games in a season, so yeah he's great when he's on the field but are you really going to pay a guy huge money to be on the field 12 out of 16 games? We had the same problem with Abraham. There are definitely risks to signing Haynesworth, and it's not like signing him automatically makes our defense all that much better. That's all I'm saying. There's obviously risks in everything, and you want to try and minimize those risks when you're signing or drafting a player, especially for a lot of money. And right now there's more risks with Haynesworth than I'm comfortable with.

BroadwayJoe10
12-13-2007, 02:31 PM
I guess i'm going to have to agree with both points of view here, but first off I want to say that I don't think fat all is going anywhere. Tennessee is going to have roughly 40 mill under the cap and will most likely hold onto their star defensive player.

I do agree that their should be a level of uncertainty about players who play well in their contract year then kind of dissapear; guys who come to mind are shaun alexander, bryan thomas etc. (But, in all fairness to thomas, his roles on the team this year were changed a bit.) But, albert is still young, and to me, has been the most disruptive player on defense in the national football league this year. However, in order to pry him away from the titans we would have to offer him a HUGE contract and I just don't see it happening. I really don't see this franchise going in that direction. The same thing for Alan Faneca; he is already in his 30's and is going to require a huge contract. Personally, my ideal signings would be Max Starks, Randal Gaay and than a doug gaberiel etc. But, I think that Starks what with his size, level of play and being only 25 will fetch a huge asking price. That is, if the steelers don't resign him, which all indications when i've talked on the steelers forums say they most likely will. Anyways, I would much rather sign starks to a big contract than Faneca, becuase of his age.

The only person I really see our team going after is Randal Gaay. I know he isn't extremely flashy, but mangini knows him and already tried to sign him earlier this year. I would like asante samuel, but he is also going to ask for a large contract. We are going to see a lot this offseason in terms of if mangini is going to get rid of all the players that he did not select himself or is he going to keep them around.

I obviously can't predict who we get or who we go after, but I guarantee you can go on every other team forum on here and they're having the same discussion about the same group of players. That doesn't mean i'm opposed to signing Fat All, because I would love to. I think, IF he played to his standards he would drastically change our defense, but i am just offering my opinion that I don't think he will be leaving the titans and i don't think we will be going after any big names. Which is somewhat dissapointing.

hcbrad08
12-13-2007, 03:30 PM
Haynesworth played 16 games in 2002 and would have last season but was suspended it was not due to injury...

His average amount of tackles per season is 36, which is what he has now. He averages 2.5 sacks a season, this season he has 6.

These arent mind boggling jumps in a contract season. I dont know where you are getting this Ive saw him play last year and this year on sunday ticket and hes the same force.

Also I think BrJoe is right this might be a moot point, but I cant see any problem with signing him especially since your argument isnt correct his stats and play havent jumped drastically in a contract season so why should one be wary.

I understand you probably dont like him esp his attitude bc he stepped on a mans face, and the fact that hes huge and gets hurt is a concern, but he's not john abrham in that he depends on speed and hes getting hurt and its effecting his speed. His power is still good and hes young is my point. Thats all its probably fruitless so whatever

derza222
12-13-2007, 03:37 PM
Haynesworth played 16 games in 2002 and would have last season but was suspended it was not due to injury...

His average amount of tackles per season is 36, which is what he has now. He averages 2.5 sacks a season, this season he has 6.

These arent mind boggling jumps in a contract season. I dont know where you are getting this Ive saw him play last year and this year on sunday ticket and hes the same force.

Also I think BrJoe is right this might be a moot point, but I cant see any problem with signing him especially since your argument isnt correct his stats and play havent jumped drastically in a contract season so why should one be wary.

I understand you probably dont like him esp his attitude bc he stepped on a mans face, and the fact that hes huge and gets hurt is a concern, but he's not john abrham in that he depends on speed and hes getting hurt and its effecting his speed. His power is still good and hes young is my point. Thats all its probably fruitless so whatever


It is probably right that this is all fruitless because I doubt we get him. I have no problem with him personally, and I just meant his injury history is an issue. My mistake saying he hasn't played a full season when he had played one, but I mean the guy hasn't played an entire year since his rookie season in 2002. That has to be a concern there. And a jump of 3.5 sacks in a year off your average is pretty significant when it's more than double what you usually have. He's been a force this year, possibly the best defensive tackle in the league. In other seasons he really wasn't a part of the conversation, that's what concerns me about him. Is it possible it all came together this year? Sure. But it's also possible he just wants to get paid, it's simply a red flag. I'm not saying don't sign the guy, but signing him definitely comes with some big risks, especially with the kind of money he's going to command. Odds are he stays in Tennessee (I could see him going to the Bengals but they're trying to clean up character so...) and my point was simply whoever signs him is risking a few things (injury, decrease in work ethic) that have been problems with him in the past or come with guys that have had breakout years in contract seasons. Again, who knows, but its not a slam dunk.

As an aside, 6'2 307 DT for Oklahoma DeMarcus Granger is a RS Soph. He's eligible this year and will be coming out somewhere in the '08-'10 drafts. Interesting to follow and see if he has the frame to put on weight, how he uses leverage and hand placement, and what kind of strength he has, because he does have good height for a NT and is a top notch tackle prospect. I believe he's #96, I'll be watching him in their bowl game. Very interested to see if he has NT potential.

hcbrad08
12-13-2007, 03:55 PM
He definitely has room to put on weight. His freshman-report weight was 352. He said he lost the bad weight and just has the good weight which makes me think he can still gain some weight, but in all honesty he prob wont come out this season when he could be a 1st rd pick next season, this year hes more of a 1-2 tweener esp bc of experience and dedication. Ive seen him before I like him and I think he gives us options if he gets up around 315 and can play with pure power.
It gives us an option next draft between him and raji. We'll see good looks...

BTW he's also rumored to be 300+ but run a sub 4.95 40. He can get after it too.

derza222
12-14-2007, 04:27 PM
He definitely has room to put on weight. His freshman-report weight was 352. He said he lost the bad weight and just has the good weight which makes me think he can still gain some weight, but in all honesty he prob wont come out this season when he could be a 1st rd pick next season, this year hes more of a 1-2 tweener esp bc of experience and dedication. Ive seen him before I like him and I think he gives us options if he gets up around 315 and can play with pure power.
It gives us an option next draft between him and raji. We'll see good looks...

BTW he's also rumored to be 300+ but run a sub 4.95 40. He can get after it too.

I think the big things with him are going to be technique in general (leverage, hand placement), lower body strength, and stamina with added weight. Could definitely be a guy to watch though. That guy (Terrance Taylor?) from Michigan could be a guy to watch as well although may not have the frame to weigh as much I'm pretty sure he's got good tech and very good strength.

By the way, even though the Malcolm Jenkins vs. Vernon Gholston discussion was fun (playing devils advocate is great) and I don't think he's going to come in and completely turn around our pass rush immediately, consider me firmly planted on the Gholston bandwagon.

BroadwayJoe10
12-14-2007, 06:33 PM
I think the big things with him are going to be technique in general (leverage, hand placement), lower body strength, and stamina with added weight. Could definitely be a guy to watch though. That guy (Terrance Taylor?) from Michigan could be a guy to watch as well although may not have the frame to weigh as much I'm pretty sure he's got good tech and very good strength.

By the way, even though the Malcolm Jenkins vs. Vernon Gholston discussion was fun (playing devils advocate is great) and I don't think he's going to come in and completely turn around our pass rush immediately, consider me firmly planted on the Gholston bandwagon.

It was a fun game hah and even though i was always leaning more towards gholston, I feel now there isn't much doubt in my mind. The problem I always have with getting attached to a player is if by some chance we don't get him and then i see him become a monster on another team. It's just depressing haha. Anyways, I cannot wait for the game this weekend. I am glad my finals are over and I'm home in NY for break; it's nice seeing jets and yankees stuff wherever i go. As much as i love the city, i am damn glad to get away from the boston fans for a few weeks.

derza222
12-14-2007, 11:45 PM
It was a fun game hah and even though i was always leaning more towards gholston, I feel now there isn't much doubt in my mind. The problem I always have with getting attached to a player is if by some chance we don't get him and then i see him become a monster on another team. It's just depressing haha. Anyways, I cannot wait for the game this weekend. I am glad my finals are over and I'm home in NY for break; it's nice seeing jets and yankees stuff wherever i go. As much as i love the city, i am damn glad to get away from the boston fans for a few weeks.

I just had a difficult time passing on who I thought was the better player. Gholston is an abolute MAN CHILD though. Was a great game though... I agree I don't want to get too attached to the idea of him, especially if he somehow ends up with a team like the Pats. Can't wait for this weekends game even though I'm still stuck in Philly with finals...wish I was done and back in the NY are as well. Hoping the weather as has been pointed out by everyone works in our favor, and I also hope Mangini has been holding back a few fun tricks for this one.

BroadwayJoe10
12-16-2007, 10:50 AM
Ok, i just checked out Scott's new mock draft and even though i really like chris long, I got a little dissapointed not seeing vernon gholstons name next to the jets. I cannot wait for the senior bowl and the combine; gonna be some great stuff.

And here's to the 9ers keep on winning!!

derza222
12-16-2007, 11:01 AM
Ok, i just checked out Scott's new mock draft and even though i really like chris long, I got a little dissapointed not seeing vernon gholstons name next to the jets. I cannot wait for the senior bowl and the combine; gonna be some great stuff.

And here's to the 9ers keep on winning!!

Agree with both those statements. Love Long but Gholston is just a freak. Question: do you like Long better as an OLB or as a DE? I think the combine between weigh ins and then forty times and agility drills is going to be huge for how 3-4 teams look at him. Is he going to try and put on a few lbs and make a case to be a 3-4 DE, or is he going to slim down work on speed and agility and make a case to be a 4-3 DE/3-4 OLB. I don't think bulking up works well for him because 4-3 teams won't be as interested in him, and he doesn't have much weight on his frame. So he either sticks where he is now, probably around 280 and is stuck with 4-3 teams looking at him because he's really between OLB and DE for a 3-4, or he slims down and tries to appeal to all parties involved. Needless to say it will be some interesting stuff. Right now I hope he shows some potential to be an OLB, if he can get down to 265, 270 and show some speed, agility, and ability to cover he could be a monster there. If not I'd wonder where we'd put him if we did draft him, though I trust our F.O. to make the right pick regardless of what it is.

hcbrad08
12-16-2007, 10:45 PM
I dont love this mock but it would help us...
Vilma =1st rounder
Pennington =3rd rounder
No offseason signings

1a) Vernon Gholston -LOLB
1b) Duke Robinson -LG
2) Dre Moore -DE
3a) Jordie Nelson -WR
3b) John Greco -RT
4) Charles Godfrey / Darnell Terrell -CB
5) Ben Moffit -ILB

Here's another possibility I like it more.
Vilma =1st rounder
Pennington =3rd rounder
Sign Alan Faneca -LG
Sign Albert Haynesworth -LDE

1a) Vernon Gholston -LOLB
1b) Malcolm Kelly -WR
2) Beau Bell -ILB
3a) Trae Williams -CB
3b) John Greco -RT
4) Chris McDuffie -LG / DT
5) Owen Schmit -FB

I understand some might say if our OLine is so important why not draft a RT earlier in both, I believe Greco is a good value pick and plays with a mean streak as well as with power and pop more than a poor mans Matt Light but not as good but hed be a RT so he could play at the same level. Also I think Bender will get his chances at RT so it's better value not to draft a RT in the 1st few picks.

Drafting a FB? This guy hurts people he reminds me of Lorenzo Neal on the JETS block first run later. We need some bettrer run blocking (and we will get it from a better and younger OL but) this guy will give us a legit power rushing attack

I know the 2nd mock is unrealistic bc the odds of us making that big of a splash in FA are slim but I love the talent selected in that draft (and I think ILB and WR could be addressed earlier in order to make the team even better) and I think the Jets with the 2nd Draft would beat the Jets with the 1st draft. Thoughts? Questions? Throw up the MOCK(S)!

derza222
12-17-2007, 05:43 PM
I think the one big problem with mocks is we're doing too much assuming trades and free agency signings. I mean all of that is well and good but as an example:

Trade Jonathan Vilma to Broncos for 1st round pick

Trade Chad Pennington and Laveraneus Coles to Chiefs for 1st and 4th round picks

Sign Patrick Crayton (WR), Max Starks (RT), Floyd Womack (LG), and Ryan Fitzpatrick (QB). Crayton becomes our #1 after trading Coles and cutting McCareins. Starks is a young RT to help build our line and Womack is a big mid-level veteran guard who can step in for a couple of years and help D'Brick. Fitzpatrick gives Clemens an intelligent veteran backup. The point of this is to surround our young QB with veteran talent to help his development. Starks will stick around and hopefully after a few years we get some better wideouts but this is the best scenario for now, Womack eventually gets replaced by a younger guard but is good for the development of D'Brick and Clemens for a couple years. I think it's more likely we spend big money on O in free agency than D because it makes more sense to have vets surrounding a young QB so he develops better.

1.a. Vernon Gholston, OLB, Ohio State- Beast comes in and really helps our pass rush.

1.b. Kenny Phillips, S, Miami- Not a huge need but the best player on the board gives us a stud safety next to Kerry Rhodes.

1.c. Dre Moore, DL, Maryland- Big guy from Maryland has the quicks to play outside and the strength to step inside if necessary.

2. Antoine Cason, CB, Arizona- Slips a bit due to forty time but has a nose for the ball and is a perfect #2 across from Revis.

(TRADE the third, a fourth, and a fifth for a mid-late second)

2.b. Beau Bell, ILB, UNLV- Beast of an ILB hits like a truck and has great speed, forms a fantastic ILB duo with Harris.

4. Frank Morton, NT, Tulane- Big dude at 6'2 331 has the perfect size to play NT in our scheme and is more than worth a shot in the fourth.

5. Alex Brink, QB, Washington State- Talented QB has a shot to eventually become backup, perhaps compete for starting job if Clemens doesn't pan out. Just didn't play with much at WSU.

6. Jehuu Caulcrick, RB, Michigan State- BIG back at 6'0 260 seems like a likely pick due to our inability to convert in the red zone and on third/fourth and short. Runs with attitude.

7. Edward Williams, WR, Lane- Big 6'4 215 target runs a 4.6. Same school as Jacoby Jones, 3rd round pick last year for Houston. Worth a shot to see if he can play, steps in as our #5 wideout.

After explaining free agency and why we went offense (which at least makes sense in my head) and the draft, here's our depth chart.


QB- Kellen Clemens, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Alex Brink

RB- Thomas Jones, Leon Washington, Jehuu Caulcrick

FB- Stacey Tutt, Jehuu Caulcrick

TE- Chris Baker, Joe Kowalewski, Jason Pociask, Sean Ryan

WR- Patrick Crayton, Jerricho Cotchery, Chansi Stuckey, Brad Smith, Edward Williams

LT- D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Wade Smith

LG- Floyd Womack, Will Montgomery, Adrian Jones

C- Nick Mangold, Wade Smith

RG- Brandon Moore, Will Montgomery

RT- Max Starks, Adrian Jones, Jacob Bender


DE- Shaun Ellis, CJ Mosely, Mike DeVito

NT- Dwayne Robertson, Sione Pouha, Frank Morton

DE- Kenyon Coleman, Dre Moore, Kareem Brown

OLB- Bryan Thomas, David Bowens

ILB- David Harris, Matt Chatham

ILB- Beau Bell, Matt Chatham

OLB- Vernon Gholston, Victor Hobson

CB- Darelle Revis, Hank Poteat, Drew Coleman

FS- Kenny Phillips, Abram Elam

SS- Kerry Rhodes, Eric Smith

CB- Antoine Cason, David Barrett


K- Mike Nugent

P- Ben Graham

Breakdown (offense): 3 QB, 3 RB, 1 FB, 5 WR, 4 TE, 9 OL (25)

Breakdown (defense): 9 DL, 7 LB, 9 DB (25)

2 special teams


Obviously there's no way in hell that happens, but out of stuff that's been talked about outside of trading for Shaun Rodgers (which I thought about doing but decided to focus on draft and FA with no player for player trades) that's a pretty nice looking offseason. Gives us a pretty fantastic looking young defense (Bryan Thomas and our DL the weak links though Moore will be stepping in after a year) especially in the back 8 and helps out our OLB in a big way. In future years DL, WR, LG, and OLB are upgrades we'll focus on, but for next year this isn't a bad team. Again unrealistic (which is why I think we should only do mocks with the picks we have now, no assumed trades and no FA until the trades or FA signing occur) but it'd be nice.

thetedginnshow
12-18-2007, 04:33 AM
Wow. You guys have some ridiculously crazy ideas. Haha. Nice. In any case, of the only plausible trade ideas there, I like the idea of trading Vilma. I'd like to think that we could still get a first rounder for him (albeit late) even though he'd be coming off the injury. I highly doubt we'll sign as many FAs (if any at all) as people are predicting, nor will we make a ton of draft pick trades, but we may do a bit. It's interesting to think about a Buckeye in Gholston going to the Jets, and I certainly wouldn't complain, but I don't know if that's necessarily the right pick. If it wasn't on our DL, I'd have a hard time thinking we should draft on the defensive side first, though. As bad as our D is, if we don't get a better DL, the rest really won't be too amazingly better. Just look at Merriman when their DL went to shambles. That's a tough one for me. If we didn't take someone like Chris Long or something for the DL, I'd like something offensive, personally, like McFadden or OL. TJ will be more worthless next year than he was this year. With Leon Washington, and hell, even some trickery with Brad Smith, you could almost run the "Wildhog" with McFadden on our squad. I'm really not a huge fan of Coles either, honestly. I'd like it if we could somehow trade him or at least add a playmaker to our receiving corp. Granted he's my favorite, but I'd love to see Adarius Bowman on our team (though I sort of assume he'll be a first rounder, but maybe not). And beyond that, I'd like to repair the OL. I think we have to take strides towards building an offense around Clemens if we're going with him for the future, or whichever QB we end up putting back there. That's not to say the defense doesn't need help, but I just don't think our draft should be so defensive early on, and rather a nice mix. I'll trust they'll make some good choices though after they went ahead and drafted my boy Revis last year.

derza222
12-18-2007, 11:39 AM
Wow. You guys have some ridiculously crazy ideas. Haha. Nice. In any case, of the only plausible trade ideas there, I like the idea of trading Vilma. I'd like to think that we could still get a first rounder for him (albeit late) even though he'd be coming off the injury. I highly doubt we'll sign as many FAs (if any at all) as people are predicting, nor will we make a ton of draft pick trades, but we may do a bit. It's interesting to think about a Buckeye in Gholston going to the Jets, and I certainly wouldn't complain, but I don't know if that's necessarily the right pick. If it wasn't on our DL, I'd have a hard time thinking we should draft on the defensive side first, though. As bad as our D is, if we don't get a better DL, the rest really won't be too amazingly better. Just look at Merriman when their DL went to shambles. That's a tough one for me. If we didn't take someone like Chris Long or something for the DL, I'd like something offensive, personally, like McFadden or OL. TJ will be more worthless next year than he was this year. With Leon Washington, and hell, even some trickery with Brad Smith, you could almost run the "Wildhog" with McFadden on our squad. I'm really not a huge fan of Coles either, honestly. I'd like it if we could somehow trade him or at least add a playmaker to our receiving corp. Granted he's my favorite, but I'd love to see Adarius Bowman on our team (though I sort of assume he'll be a first rounder, but maybe not). And beyond that, I'd like to repair the OL. I think we have to take strides towards building an offense around Clemens if we're going with him for the future, or whichever QB we end up putting back there. That's not to say the defense doesn't need help, but I just don't think our draft should be so defensive early on, and rather a nice mix. I'll trust they'll make some good choices though after they went ahead and drafted my boy Revis last year.

Yeah. The point of that last one was that I think doing stuff with free agency and crazy trades gets a little excessive *shrugs* maybe that's just me. It's nice to fix your entire team in one season through all kinds of trades and free agent signings, but I'd rather stick to the draft with our team as of now and make changes based on free agency when it happens.

As far as drafting Gholston, I agree it's tough to draft a OLB without a solid DL, but I think we're drafting long-term and as long as we don't feel it would be bad for his development I'd be fine with taking him. With Long, I'm just not sure he's got the size to play DE. I know he has great leverage and everything, but look at Ellis for us, he just doesn't have the size. The run game a huge problem and I really think we need some beef at ends and inside.

You say having Jones would be worthless next year, but how much would McFadden be behind our OL? Backs are products of their lines, doesn't matter how good they are. McFadden might be slightly better but I don't think the difference is enough to sink a top 5 pick into him when we have two capable backs already. I'd love to draft OL, but at the top of the first it could be tough to sink top 5 money into two tackles and take Jake Long, and I don't think anybody else is worth that high of a pick. I sure wouldn't mind though. I think whoever we take in the first we can address OL in rounds 2 and/or 3. If we take a RT in one of those rounds and add an LG in maybe the early 4th that would be nice.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if we wheel and deal this year as we have the last 2 years with this management but it's impossible to predict so it's not worth it. And agreed, I'll have a hard time questioning what they do because our drafts have been very solid thus far.

Not sure about completely giving up on Coles because he's a good wideout but if we deal Penny, LC is probably going with him. As long as we get something nice in return I guess I wouldn't mind but it'd be tough to lose him. Bowman would be fantastic though, I'd love it if he was there in round 2. Hopefully some of the underclassmen that declare push him down a little, who knows I'd love to grab him there I think he's a great fit for us.

BroadwayJoe10
12-18-2007, 04:19 PM
Ok, I know we decided the idea about trading coles and Chad for the 1st rounder was just too good to be true, but I have been reading a lot about it and have taken a few thigns away; that they definately have been talking and a 1st rounder is definate, however the 4th pick could vary to possibly 5th etc.

The thing that was convincing on KC's part would be that they are probably going to give Herm an extra year to prove that he could win with the chiefs; I beleive he will get a year reprieve because of the loss of LJ this year and their defense has turned it around towards the end. So, this is a bit of the reasoning for KC;

KC just took Bowe last year and have no one opposite him on the outside or anyone reliable to deliver the ball to him or Tony Gonzalez. Due to the trade and the cap hit the jets will be taking the chiefs don't have to cough up signing bonuses for either Coles or Chad.

Additionally, another slight bonus for them would be if we simply cut Chad, he really would be the best free agent QB, one who is especially adapt for running Herms offense. This takes out the bidding war for him, which some here may not beleive there will be one, but in my opinion there will be. I think some fans undervalue chad, while some coaches place value on a smart QB who can keep their team in every dgame and provide leadership as well as the ability to groom their future QB. SO, they would have chad for 3 yrs and roughly 13 mill & no penalty for cutting him at any point.

Thus, the take-home message from all of this i beleive; (1) it isn't as unrealistic as i originally thought and (2) that this trade is better for herm than for the chiefs.

My point for that is that if Herm is given the extra year (and if he is fired all talks go out the window) to prove his worth, Chad and coles will instantly upgrade his team. Chad will make all the decisions that he made with us that lead us to the playoffs and he can do this because his surrounding cast will be better. LJ will be healthy, utilizing his play action. He has a stud reciever in the making in Bowe, as well as Coles who will draw attention away from Bowe and future hall of famer tony Gonzalez. One of the big things for getting these two together is that you aren't getting a QB and a WR, but a QB-WR pair who know each other in and out. With a few upgrades on the line and kansas city can be a potent offense (as potent as a herm edwards offense can be). Which is another point; Chad is perfect for herms dink and dunk run the ball, play action offense. Chad will most likely be starting this coming week and possibly the last week of the year as well, so the better he plays the more his value goes up.

Ok, basically i think the point that everyone sees is the chiefs are giving up a top 10 pick possibly top 5 pick for two past their prime players. This is true. But, you have to realize the position the chiefs are in and what will help them win next year and the next couple. (This is where i meant better for herm than the chiefs..herm will take these two maybe a bit above market in order to save his job as opposed to continue to rebuild the chiefs) Chad and coles will most certainly give the chiefs a better chance to win this coming year and the following couple as opposed to locking money into a Ryan Clady or jake long etc and waiting for their development.

I just thought that was some good info and how it isn't completely unrealistic, but i do agree that we can only really focus and discuss on the things we have for certain; ie a top draft pick. Which I feel should be for vernon gholston, but we'll see.

And finally; the trade of coles and chad would save us roughly 7 mill this year and more the next couple years on the cap. (I beleive the number to be 10+ million the following year) This isn't to mention the likely release of McCareins (who isn't just a bad reciever, but a terrible football player...I just couldnt beleive that one punt he didn't down within the 5 yards, it went right through his HANDS, and you'd think as a WR that'd be his specialty, he just flat out doestn't make plays) maybe the release or restructure of Drob and the rest. This would allow us 30+ mill under the cap in order to sign potential two top 10 picks as well as sign Rhodes long term. Just a few ideas.

hcbrad08
12-19-2007, 02:19 AM
Whoever doesnbt like Coles can just forget about football and just listen to ESPN talk about the Patriots all day bc real football is Laverneus Coles.


I think signing Faneca is not unrealistic esp considering amny say hes out in PITT (he just made the pro bowl) Haynesworth is a tough sign but if possible a greta move.

I dont see the possibility of the Jets rrturning to contetention in 1 year all too far fetched.
-fix the lg and rt
-Help pass rush and youve won 5 more games at least. Anything else will come from not making stupid mistakes.

I think the vilma trade is very viable and considering most believe pennington to ask for a trade or release I highly doubt we get a worse value than a 37 year old concussion prone QB (4th rd T Green Dolphins) Not to crazy think a little.

Like I said the jets will have roughly 20 mil under the cap when was the last time we saved this much...I think they knew theis years FA class was good and decided to save in order to build up via the draft and FA.

Its njot insane to believe a team that won last year and stumbled this year would not want to return to prominence quickly

My favs if they come out
-Loadholt
-Duke Robinson
-Vernon Gholston
-Malcolm Kelly

Looking to 2009 i could see the Jets selecting Kevin Smith outs of UCF...Hes nasty and decided to stay another season in college, he broke mad records and if we succedd enough next season he could be our feature back and succeed TJ. Look him up its def a possibility.

BroadwayJoe10
12-19-2007, 10:03 AM
Whoever doesnbt like Coles can just forget about football and just listen to ESPN talk about the Patriots all day bc real football is Laverneus Coles.


I think signing Faneca is not unrealistic esp considering amny say hes out in PITT (he just made the pro bowl) Haynesworth is a tough sign but if possible a greta move.

I dont see the possibility of the Jets rrturning to contetention in 1 year all too far fetched.
-fix the lg and rt
-Help pass rush and youve won 5 more games at least. Anything else will come from not making stupid mistakes.

I think the vilma trade is very viable and considering most believe pennington to ask for a trade or release I highly doubt we get a worse value than a 37 year old concussion prone QB (4th rd T Green Dolphins) Not to crazy think a little.

Like I said the jets will have roughly 20 mil under the cap when was the last time we saved this much...I think they knew theis years FA class was good and decided to save in order to build up via the draft and FA.

Its njot insane to believe a team that won last year and stumbled this year would not want to return to prominence quickly

My favs if they come out
-Loadholt
-Duke Robinson
-Vernon Gholston
-Malcolm Kelly

Looking to 2009 i could see the Jets selecting Kevin Smith outs of UCF...Hes nasty and decided to stay another season in college, he broke mad records and if we succedd enough next season he could be our feature back and succeed TJ. Look him up its def a possibility.

Those are my favorites as well, although i may put a malcolm kelly/james hardy but it doesn't matter to me. As of now, Gholston is still my number 1 and will most likely stay that way unless chris long shocks me at the combine. Then, if we are sitting at the top of the second round and those guys are there, I would have a hard time really choosing. Kelly would be great value at the top of the second round and most likely won't be there, but with coles still on the team he isn't exactly the top priority right now. I think it would be between loadholt and Robinson. Both are absolutely massive and would fill a definate need. I love loadholt and think he has a huge ceiling, but so does Robinson and I beleive having a solid LG between Dbrick and Mangold would be extremely helpful. I really hope that the FO addresses either LG or RT in free agency.

derza222
12-19-2007, 11:31 AM
I think our front office knows that many our best players are going to be in their primes in 3-5 years. We're going to have Rhodes, Harris, Revis, Cotchery, Brick, Mangold, Leon, Smith, and perhaps Clemens in that same age range. I think we address some positions via FA and some via the draft. Personally I do think signing Faneca or some other veteran LG to a deal is realistic. However I think Faneca is going to want a long-term deal and because he's going to decline I don't know if we're going to want to give him big money over 5, 6 years. As long as we get a vet in there that Brick will know that he won't have to cover for he'll be fine. It's not like he's playing with average players at LG now, he's playing with incompetent guys at LG. I think we need a COMPETENT left guard, not a Pro-Bowler. If Faneca was 25 I could see dishing out a big long-term deal for him but by the time we hit our collective prime he's going to be in his mid thirties. I definitely think we address that spot in FA though and not the draft because it'll help Brick a lot. From what I've read about Robinson he's a monster but he may not be NFL ready in pass pro. So he'd be a great run blocker but Brick would have to help him out as well and it could be problematic. Wouldn't mind signing a decent vet as a 1-2 year stopgap and drafting Duke though.

Right tackle I think we could address through the draft. We can get a guy that can step in and play well, he'll learn from Moore on his right side and if it's a guy we take in the first three rounds I think he'll be fine as a rookie. Wouldn't be surprised if we addressed it via FA though, I think it could go either way honestly.

Wide receiver I think we have to address through both the draft and FA, especially if we deal Coles. The one very dangerous thing about drafting a guy to be your #1 wideout is that wideouts are hit or miss when it comes to producing in the league right away. Some guys will, some won't, and usually it's a three year process. That said, because we're going to have a lot of very good players in 4-5 years I think we have to draft a guy to be our #1 this year or next year. A lot of guys can be had in the second round or if we trade down in the first. Kelly obviously isn't going to be there in the second, but if Hardy runs a bad time he could be. Adarius Bowman could be there as well. OR if we sign a big guy (we'll have to sign some competent security blanket with hands for Clemens, maybe he'll be big) and he declares we could draft an Earl Bennett early second to be that guy. Other option is if Hardy or Kelly runs a 4.3 we could draft them top 10.

I think we draft a bruiser so we can FINALLY SCORE WHEN WE GET IN THE RED ZONE ON OCCASION AND RUN THE BALL ON THIRD/FOURTH AND ONE AS OPPOSED TO A PASS OR A QB SNEAK but that's going to be a day 2 pick. Maybe a FB like Owen Schmitt or Jehuu Caulcrick, I love both. I think those are really the only offensive positions we look at though, besides maybe a veteran backup and a future real backup that can be a #3 and possibly start.

Defensive end, the more I think about it, is a long shot for us to address and get a starter out of it this year. Same with nose tackle unfortunately. There are guys at end but there's really nobody at NT, and we just have bigger needs than DE right now. Ellis is one of our best pass rushers and Colemen is decent on the other side. Ellis eventually needs to be replaced but I don't think he will be next year, and we have to bring in so many new starters I really don't think we can afford to replace one of our best pass rushers with a rookie just so we can get some run D, because we suck at both. I think we'll replace Ellis when he gets older but the earliest pick I could see using on a DE is a third, possibly a fourth or fifth, as much as I love Dre Moore. It's really going to start with getting a fat boy in the middle, so we'll see how that goes but I think it has to be an area of focus for us. We could give NT a look in FA though.

Safety I feel the same way as defensive end. I think if we're stuck in a situation where the Long's, DMC, and Gholston are gone (which would suck) and we can't trade down maybe we give a Kenny Phillips a look but outside of that I don't see us addressing it. Maybe a second day pick for a good cover guy, but that's about it. A stud next to Rhodes to let him roam would be amazing (Phillips really would be a GREAT fit next to Rhodes IMO) but is a lot more of a luxury than a necessity because Elam is serviceable. Don't think we address it in FA.

OLB I think HAS to be via the draft. There's just so many guys we're bound to find somebody at some point. Don't think we'll like Harvey but you're talking Gholston and supposedly we're thinking of Chris Long as an OLB too at the top of round 1, and then in the 2-3 range you have Tommy Blake, Quentin Groves, Shawn Crable, maybe a Chris Ellis, there's lots of guys we can make an OLB and I don't think it makes sense to overpay a free agent to play a position when we could get probably a better player via the draft.'

Corner I think like RT we could go either way, it'd have to be a young guy though.

ILB I think if we address it's via draft, but we may not.

The one thing about free agency is that I think we're being stingy now so we can lock up our guys long term. Rhodes, Brick, Mangold, Revis, Harris, they're all going to want new deals. These guys are going to get paid, and I think we're going to sign a couple young guys long-term and give them decent but not great contracts (a RT, CB, WR, some mix of those three) and a veteran or two (LG, DL maybe) to a short deal so we can bring in a young guy in the future. I think we COULD compete next year, but I think we SHOULD wait to compete in a few. We have the potential to be a very good team down the road and for that to happen we will need to be smart via FA, sign a few nice deals, and mostly build through the draft. It's really tough to wait, but I think if we build right we could be perennial a Super Bowl contender in 3-5 years and I'd much rather see that than us blow up to compete next year and never seriously compete for a Super Bowl. I know it's hard but I'd rather wait for a ring than be impatient and make the playoffs. Plus it's better this way to be realistic and not expect the big FA signings. I don't think they'll happen and I'm cool with that, but maybe that's just me.

Sorry for the long post.


And as far as the Penny/Coles deal, I do think it is realistic for those reasons but I just don't think it happens. We'll see, but I'm not getting my hopes up thats for sure.

hcbrad08
12-19-2007, 01:55 PM
You just touched on every position...Do we need to just blow up the team? And some of the guys you mentioned coming into their primes arent exactly impact players everydown...

just in terms of the line I think you are forgetting that two of the best OL we've ever had in recent memory were Kendall and Mawae and both were signed via FA around 31 which is how old Faneca is ....NO ONE will give him a 6 year deal...3-4 years w buyout options in the end is prob what he'll get...dont sell that short...he could be the glue and leadership this young line needs (pro bowler)

WR in FA is not a viable option right now bc none of them fit our bill in terms of a big red zone threat. If Coles goes then I d like to see Berrian signed but other than that i would only sign them if they were coming at a very cheap price i like crayton but not tooooo much.

derza222
12-19-2007, 02:58 PM
You just touched on every position...Do we need to just blow up the team? And some of the guys you mentioned coming into their primes arent exactly impact players everydown...

just in terms of the line I think you are forgetting that two of the best OL we've ever had in recent memory were Kendall and Mawae and both were signed via FA around 31 which is how old Faneca is ....NO ONE will give him a 6 year deal...3-4 years w buyout options in the end is prob what he'll get...dont sell that short...he could be the glue and leadership this young line needs (pro bowler)

WR in FA is not a viable option right now bc none of them fit our bill in terms of a big red zone threat. If Coles goes then I d like to see Berrian signed but other than that i would only sign them if they were coming at a very cheap price i like crayton but not tooooo much.

I don't want to blow up the team but I don't see how you can think we don't have tons of needs. Some need very good players and some need situational guys but we'll have a ton of needs in the next couple of years to address. This is a process, we're going to do this over the course of a few years but we have a serious lack of talent at a lot of positions. I don't want to do everything in one year though. I mean which positions do you think we couldn't use an upgrade at?

As far as those guys that aren't impact players every down, Leon and Smith are our two best playmakers with the ball in their hands right now. I think Leon will be a teriffic #2 RB in a two back combo getting a lot of touches behind a good line and Smith will develop into a good all-around player who is versatile and a decent wideout. Keep in mind he hasn't played WR for two years even, it takes most guys coming into the league who have played the position their whole lives three years to really be good players. Give him some time, he won't be a superstar but he'll be an important cog on a good team which is what we're trying to build.

On defense we're set at one ILB spot, one corner spot, and strong safety. We've got some ends that are decent and would probably be a lot better with a traditional nose. We've got a serviceable OLB and a solid free safety and some guys that can step in at ILB if necessary next season along with a bunch of mediocre corners. That still leaves one OLB spot that needs a serious upgrade and a huge need at NT. We'll need more beef at end down the road and an ILB next to Harris along with a #2 corner hopefully this season. Thomas is probably a decent glue guy at one OLB spot and Elam is decent but not good enough that if somebody comes along we wouldn't take an upgrade there (Both Long's, DMC, and Gholston off the board who do you take? Got to be Jenkins or Phillips I'd imagine, and Phillips probably has better value there even if Jenkins is better). So within the next few years we'll need a bigger DL (2-3 guys), a new OLB and ILB, and a corner.

On offense we supposedly have our QB of the future, have huge needs at RT and LG that need to be addressed this offseason, and may be dealing our #1 wideout. We also have huge problems in the red zone and in short yardage, partially due to our OL and partially due to not having any really good short yardage backs. We'll need a vet LG of some sort this offseason and a RT from draft or FA, would you agree? Dealing our #1 wideout we'll need a new guy there because we don't have a solid starter outside of Cotchery. So thats three positions we need to upgrade this offseason in some way. A short yardage RB would be a lovely luxury as would a smart backup QB. So on offense at the very least we'll need a WR and a couple of big dudes on the line in some mix of FA and draft but we could use a good young guy at each of those positions. Please let me know what you disagree with for this paragraph and the one above.

As far as Faneca, some guards got ridiculous contracts last offseason. I understand a glue guy would be great for our offensive line, and I truly believe we need to sign a LG because drafting one this year would be enough. But if the contract is bad I do not want to sign Faneca in any way shape or form. For me, a 2 year contract for a serviceable left guard next to Brick who has good leadership and teaching skills is fine, I don't care how old he is because it's just a two year deal. If we can get Faneca for 3, maybe 4 that's fine. But a 2-3 year contract gives us a nice leader on the line and allows us to groom somebody like a Duke Robinson who has great skills but isn't quite NFL ready. I just don't want to dish a ton of money out to a guard when really our need is to have a guy that Brick doesn't have to worry about cleaning up for right now. Down the road we can grab that road grader through the draft, but I still don't think we're competing for a ring for at least 4 years.

With WR's in free agency, I think we need to sign a guy and draft a guy. Anybody with hands in free agency would be great, but for now I think Clemens needs another security blanket. When LC was out we had a converted QB and a guy with no hands out there playing wideout. If we just give Clemens two starters that can catch the ball now and develop a big guy on the side (WR's take time to develop, 3 year rule) that we can use during games but don't have to lean on we'll be fine. Sign somebody with hands and draft a Hardy, Kelly, Bowman, whoever but if we're relying on a rookie to be a starting wideout we are going to be in serious trouble. If LC doesn't get traded the sign isn't necessary, but if he does I think it is.

As far as signing a backup QB, I don't want an expensive guy I want a smart guy. Somebody that understands the game well, maybe doesn't have the biggest arm but makes good decisions and could teach Clemens to do the same. I think that would be ideal.

Anyways, that's my take.

BroadwayJoe10
12-19-2007, 06:31 PM
Some possible terrible news here for us and the rest of the AFC east;

ESPN reports Bill Parcells will sign a four-year contract to become the Dolphins' vice president of football operations.

Owner Wayne Huizenga reportedly is no longer interested in selling the franchise, which was a big development for the Tuna. Parcells may have been using the Falcons to up his price tag with Miami or increase control. He is likely to be making final personnel decisions, so don't look for a veteran name in the GM spot. High profile coordinators with Parcells connections include Patriots OC Josh McDaniels, Cowboys OC Jason Garrett, and Falcons DC Mike Zimmer. Dec. 19 - 6:45 pm et



parcells is an amazing talent evaluator and this could lead some trouble for us.

Crickett
12-19-2007, 06:42 PM
On offense we supposedly have our QB of the future, have huge needs at RT and LG that need to be addressed this offseason, and may be dealing our #1 wideout. We also have huge problems in the red zone and in short yardage, partially due to our OL and partially due to not having any really good short yardage backs. We'll need a vet LG of some sort this offseason and a RT from draft or FA, would you agree? Dealing our #1 wideout we'll need a new guy there because we don't have a solid starter outside of Cotchery. So thats three positions we need to upgrade this offseason in some way. A short yardage RB would be a lovely luxury as would a smart backup QB. So on offense at the very least we'll need a WR and a couple of big dudes on the line in some mix of FA and draft but we could use a good young guy at each of those positions. Please let me know what you disagree with for this paragraph and the one above.

The only thing I disagree with here is the assumption that the Coles/Pennington to KC rumor is true.

As far as Faneca, some guards got ridiculous contracts last offseason. I understand a glue guy would be great for our offensive line, and I truly believe we need to sign a LG because drafting one this year would be enough. But if the contract is bad I do not want to sign Faneca in any way shape or form. For me, a 2 year contract for a serviceable left guard next to Brick who has good leadership and teaching skills is fine, I don't care how old he is because it's just a two year deal. If we can get Faneca for 3, maybe 4 that's fine. But a 2-3 year contract gives us a nice leader on the line and allows us to groom somebody like a Duke Robinson who has great skills but isn't quite NFL ready. I just don't want to dish a ton of money out to a guard when really our need is to have a guy that Brick doesn't have to worry about cleaning up for right now. Down the road we can grab that road grader through the draft, but I still don't think we're competing for a ring for at least 4 years.

I'm going to assume you mean they don't need to sign a LG because drafting one this year would be enough. And on that point, I would disagree with you. The Jets have just so many needs, there is no way they cal fill them with the picks they have. I would also disagree with you about the contract. To me, Faneca is the one guy the Jets must get no matter the cost. Even if it means a Leonard Davis/Eric Steinbach type contract. Not even so much to help D'Brick. Not even so much to provide veteran leadership. But to stop the countless times Thomas Jones has been tackled for a minimal gain or loss by a d-lineman who got past the left guard.

With WR's in free agency, I think we need to sign a guy and draft a guy. Anybody with hands in free agency would be great, but for now I think Clemens needs another security blanket. When LC was out we had a converted QB and a guy with no hands out there playing wideout. If we just give Clemens two starters that can catch the ball now and develop a big guy on the side (WR's take time to develop, 3 year rule) that we can use during games but don't have to lean on we'll be fine. Sign somebody with hands and draft a Hardy, Kelly, Bowman, whoever but if we're relying on a rookie to be a starting wideout we are going to be in serious trouble. If LC doesn't get traded the sign isn't necessary, but if he does I think it is.

I see it as either or, but then again, I don't think Coles is getting traded.

ncstateviking
12-19-2007, 06:44 PM
i have no idea if it is realistic at all...and i havent heard anything about it...just something i was wondering...do you guys think a trade could be worked out involving coles, penny, and robertson to the ravens for gregg and a 1st?

derza222
12-19-2007, 07:06 PM
The only thing I disagree with here is the assumption that the Coles/Pennington to KC rumor is true.

I wasn't so much assuming the rumor is true as saying what we should do if the deal happens. Obviously if it doesn't happen we really only need a big wideout because LC is here, but if it does happen we couldn't rely on a draft pick.

I'm going to assume you mean they don't need to sign a LG because drafting one this year would be enough. And on that point, I would disagree with you. The Jets have just so many needs, there is no way they cal fill them with the picks they have. I would also disagree with you about the contract. To me, Faneca is the one guy the Jets must get no matter the cost. Even if it means a Leonard Davis/Eric Steinbach type contract. Not even so much to help D'Brick. Not even so much to provide veteran leadership. But to stop the countless times Thomas Jones has been tackled for a minimal gain or loss by a d-lineman who got past the left guard.

Not quite what I meant there, though some points you do disagree with me. I do think we need to sign a LG this offseason and would be very disappointed with just drafting one. However, we do disagree on the contract and the caliber of player we need. I don't think spending huge money on a LG is that significant because there are other positions of better value. I'd rather sign a competent LG to a good contract than a Pro Bowl guy to a huge contract. A good LG should be plenty good enough for us but I think the caliber of player we need at that position has been blown out of proportion simply because we've had guys that should not be playing that position as starters in the NFL. Also, signing Faneca to that kind of a contract could be a mistake because he's an older player on the decline. But that's just my take. I do agree that we need to sign a competent player, I just don't think it needs to be Faneca. Agree to disagree I guess.

I see it as either or, but then again, I don't think Coles is getting traded.

I think if Coles doesn't get traded it's an either or (though I'd lean towards draft). That said, I think regardless of where they go I think Coles is going to be leaving us this offseason. It seems that he doesn't like Mangini's training camps and he and Pennington are very close, I think if one goes they both go in some sort of package deal. I'd hate to see it happen because I love LC and he really epitomizes what being a football player is all about along with being a great person and leader, but I do think it's very realistic that he's gone after this season.

BroadwayJoe10
12-19-2007, 08:04 PM
According to the sources at jetnation, which are usually very reliable KC and the jets 100% had this talk about Pennington/Coles for the first and additional pick. It isn't a rumor, but truth. I willl agree with everyone else in that i won't beleive it until i see it. But it wasn't just someone making something up for the hell of it, this was a person who takes pride in his work and his sources. Generally when there is a "jets official who cannot give his name" it usually means the talks happened, however it was not given exactly when the talks took place or how warm KC was to them. The only thing i have heard is that the talks definately took place and the jets sticking ground was the 1st rounder, but other than that there doesn't seem to be any additional news considering we are passed the trade deadline.

I am going to have to agree with derza on this. I don't want to give a bloated contract to a 30 year old. I know he would do wonders, but i don't like signing 30 year olds to huge 5+ year contracts, it doesn't seem to be good business. I would rather tie that money into Max Starks who is 25 years old and maybe a lesser LG for a couple year deal while drafting a LG as well. This may not be the best for the team right at the moment, but it is fiscally sound and the better long term for our teams development.

Another thing to keep your eye is definately going to be the Lions. There were rumors this march and early april about the jets trading Drob and a draft pick for shaun rogers and then seperate ones for vilma. I generally go by the rule where there's smoke there's a little fire; so i wouldnt be surprised to see the names of those players resurfaced come postseason. Additionally, the notion that Roy Williams could be on the block and the possibility of us needing a WR if coles should leave. These are all options that have been brought up once before, so i definately willnot be surprised when u started hearing the trades; drob+vilma for rogers+williams and then add on a draft pick to either side to make it more fair. I actually am willing to pit some money on it that these rumors will start in a few months! I also expect to hear some talk about chad johnson and vilma...There is no source for this rumor, but i have just heard other forums talk about vilma for Ocho and the likes. I expect to hear a ton of crazy ideas as the combine and draft nears. Speaking of which, when are teams able to trade again???

Anyways, back to the idea of the draft. Now with parcells in the picture for the dolphins, he is one hell of a talent evaluator and i am thinking he cuold snag some of the guys we may want from us. But, my #1 choice until the combine is still vernon gholston and will remain so until Chris Long proves to me he is A) capable of weighing in around 300+ or B) capable of putting up gaudy forty and agility times at the combine. And for our 2nd rounder, i think i need to see what happens in the offseason first; if coles is traded than obviously WR is a huge need but if not then it depends on whos there RT, LG maybe eve DE if say they beleive a Frank Okam's value is too high to pass on etc.

BroadwayJoe10
12-19-2007, 08:09 PM
i have no idea if it is realistic at all...and i havent heard anything about it...just something i was wondering...do you guys think a trade could be worked out involving coles, penny, and robertson to the ravens for gregg and a 1st?

That is a lot of money for the ravens to take on and I dunno if they would be able to do it, nor do i think they would do it. Gregg is about the same size as Drob, but is a bit more stout in against the run, but also has a huge dline that enables him to not weigh 330 lbs. I am not one of the people who think gregg would do well on our dline, i think we desperately need someone who weighs the 330+, or can be 310 and hold up against the double team; something that drob cannot do. He is also 31+ i beleive?? I am not sure the jets would do it, but it could be worth it to get rid of Drobs contract. Anyways, I do have a feeling some trades will be made, but i dunno if they are gonna be of the blockbuster variety. And if they do, I see mangini doing it quickly and with 0 word. BUT, i clearly am on this forum and not in a FO for many a reason, so your guess is as good as mine! I will admit that I am quite excited for the upcoming offseason, it has some definate possibilities.

derza222
12-19-2007, 08:18 PM
As far as the rumors go:

Like you said I'm taking the wait and see approach on the KC deal, but I do believe that the talks happened. If it doesn't happen I think those two are going somewhere in a package deal. Baltimore as outlined is definitely a possibility.

Lions deals would be very nice. I'd probably take Roy and Rodgers for Vilma and D-Rob straight up, if we had to throw in a third or something I'd be cool with it too. Roy is a very good wideout and and Rodgers could be a monster inside if he actually tried. He'd make our defense a lot better, that's for sure.

Bengals trade could be good too. I don't think I'd want Chad because as much as I love him (probably my favorite player not on the Jets, him and Westbrook are very high up there) I don't think he's good for a young QB. If we could get a pick or Housh I think it's a good trade. Houshmandzadeh would be a great asset for us as he's just a very solid all-around wideout and he might have to leave because he wants to get out of Ocho's shadow and prove that he is a #1 wideout in his own right.

With Parcells, I think he's going to go Long at the #1 spot which is good for us. We'll almost certainly have Gholston or McFadden at our spot. Gholston is an easy pick and if McFadden is on the board and Gholston isn't we could definitley swing a trade down IMO. This is obviously assuming we don't win any more which might not happen, who knows I think we could definitely beat either of the teams we're playing if we play a good game.

hcbrad08
12-19-2007, 08:30 PM
I think a lot of our holes can be filled in one year and it could make us a contender, which is all we need to be until we have antoerh season with an good and active offseason

NEEDS
1)LG:
Adrien Clark is the exact reason why your strategy wouldnt work. bc just getting someone who is "servicable" as many thought adrein clark would be can also suck so why not sign a guy whos proven to be good or has a lot of potential like a draft pick and plug him in there....Clarke is the reason our Line is THIS BAD (he single handedly got Clemens hurt)

My Solution:
Plan A-Sign Alan Faneca in FA
Plan B-Draft Duke Robinson
Plan C-Draft Roy Scheuning

2)RT:
Anthony Clement gets beat consistently and is the epitome of what you prescribe doing for our line getting the best guy for the buck. Thats what he was last off season and the year before and look where that has taken us. Maybe Jacob Bender will get a shot next season but Im assuming his lasck of play this year is a vote of no confidence. maybe its not im just assuming.

My Solution:
Plan A-Draft Phil Loadholt
Plan B-Sign Max Starks in FA
Plan C-Draft John Greco


3)NT:
Dewayne is okay but should be traded to a team with a 43 plays well attacking the QB and would be good for certain teams Day 1 pick to me...2nd rd.

My Solution:
Plan A-Sign/Trade for Shaun Rodgers
Plan B-Keep Dewayne and draft another big 34 DE
Plan C-Keep Dewayne and draft Frank Morton to take a shot at a big body

4)DE:
Shaun Ellis is undersized and should be retained as a situational pass rusher (when they play stand up D) but a 65 300 lb DT coverted to DE is neccesary to bolster the line as a whole and not have anyone playing out of their strengths (ala vilma or ellis both undersized in a 34) could make DRob better.

My Solution:
Plan A-Draft Dre Moore
Plan B-Draft Kentwan Balmer
Plan C-Sign Albert Haynesworth in FA

5)OLB:
We need to generate a better pass rush = and get no push of the pocket from the edge. We try to use speed and edge rushing but Hobson is not that fast and Thomas is getting more attention after last seasons 8.5 sacks.

My Solution:
Plan A-Draft Vernon Gholston
Plan B-Draft Quentin Groves
Plan C-Draft Chris Ellis


6)WR:
We don't have a vertical threat or a threat in the redzone. For all the talk of Clemens arm we dont have anyone who can beat the deep safety with size or speed.

My Solution:
Plan A-Draft Adarius Bowman
Plan B-Draft Jordie Nelson
Plan C-Sign Bernard Berrian in FA

7)CB:
Revis is a true #1 CB and we have serviceable #2s I think we need to shuffle things up a bit and draft someone in a later round maybe someone with good value in the 4th or 5th.

My Solution:
Plan A-Draft Chevis Jackson
Plan B-Draft Darnell Terrell
Plan C-Draft Charles Godfrey



I think drafting an ILB again would be a luxury pick bc Barotn and Harris play well together, and I love Beau Bell in so many ways but Im going to have to pass this draft bc there are way too many other needs unless something happens where he slips to the 2nd and Dre moore slips to the 3rd (2nd scenario below). Safety I think Elam is a good SS and that those are the last parts of a team should worry about especially if theyre already decently assembled. You build a tema from the trenches and while Minnesota overpaid its OL its paying dividends now bc yes they have a great RB in Peterson but they won the past 4 without him, so you tell me the OL isnt important. Its the most important along with destroying it on the defensive side. Im a firm believer defenses work togethe, ie a good pass rush helps a secondary or good secondary helps a pass rush with coverage sacks but I think as we have all seen this season the former is much more effective and not having a pass rush or being able to conjure one up is extremely detrimental to a TEAM not just a defense.

Those solutions are each the best scenarios for each position. Obviously they cant all happen together but with a good FA and Draft it can be done and the team would be back to 9+ win seasons.
Put together they would look like this...

Trades
Trade Vilma: Late 1st Rd.
Trade Pennington: 3rd Rd.

Cuts
David Barrett
Andre Dyson
Justin McCareins
Adrien Clarke
Anthony Clement
Victor Hobson
Erik Coleman

Signings
Alan Faneca

Draft
1a)Vernon Gholston
1b)Phil Loadholt
2)Dre Moore
3a)Jordie Nelson
3b)Chevis Jackson
4)Robert Felton
5)Frank Morton

2nd Draft Scenario (if it happens we could get nasty really quick)

Draft
1a)Vernon Gholston
1b)Phil Loadholt
2)Beau Bell
3a)Dre Moore
3b)Jordie Nelson
4)Darnell Terrell
5)Frank Morton

My point with all this is that there is a combination of FA and players in the draft that we can bring in to fill our needs effectively NOW and help move toward the future.
I dont think all is lost

derza222
12-19-2007, 08:44 PM
Your point on the LG is ridiculous. Clarke was by no means a proven starter and we both know that. There is a LARGE difference between an unproven player with a few starts and a Pro Bowl player that is going to command a massive multimillion dollar contract and we both know that. Somewhere in the middle there you will find an older but solid proven veteran starter that will command a decent amount of money for 2-3 years. THAT is the direction we need to go in at left guard. Not an LG that is past his prime and going to command more money and years than he's worth to get signed. And how is a rookie going to be a good scenario? Not a great plan B. We need to sign a vet, just not a Pro Bowl vet.

And my point is again that there's no need to be so hasty to try and compete next season. I'd rather wait and build our team right than try and fill every single need right now, make a mistake, and not be a Super Bowl team. Patience, making good signs, not signing free agents that command too much money, is the way to become a competitive team. Once we get to that elite level we can afford to dish out a fat contract but until then let's build our team the right way, through the draft and small free agent signings. We make a mistake on a Faneca or Haynesworth contract and we tie up our books for a few years and it's a big blow for our franchise. We sign a LG that's started and isn't going to make mistakes but also isn't a Pro Bowl caliber guy and address our DL through the draft. We can draft that LG of the future and give him a year to learn, but building our team slowly through the draft and small free agency deals is the way to go.

genom
12-20-2007, 02:09 PM
hcbrad: That was a very enjoyable and thorough read. A true 3-4 DE and a true 3-4 OLB is what this defense needs. Ellis and Hobson are both undersized and need to be replaced. However, i truly dislike Quentin Groves. The guy has been displaced by a sophomore at defensive end. First round talents do not get benched and moved to OLB, where he has struggled mightily. He can't get off blocks and would be nothing more than a situational pass rusher for us.


edit: Your mock is exactly the positions I would draft and nearly the same rounds I would address them in. I think i'd take a CB possibly a round earlier, i'm thinking Chevis Jackson or Terrell Thomas. Both tall and physical corners who play very well against the run, as well as in man to man.

hcbrad08
12-20-2007, 10:30 PM
how can you ignore the fact that Pete Kendall and Kevin Mawae were both FA signings around the age of 31 and didnt clog up our cap...Even if we did sign faneca to a big deal...Its one player with a bonus that clog up the back end not now, the exact same situation as Mawae and Kendall and we didn't break the bank...You are really trying to be cheap about the most important thing we need and considering we're going to have 20+ mil under the cap next season I think the idea of making one big move in FA and then moving to the draft...In case you noticed in my first mock I had the Jets selecting a LG in the draft as well to develop behind Faneca if we signed him...you really are ignoring the ideas that the team can addres CRITICAL NEEDS and sign 1 pro bowl OL overpriced which would pay a lot of dividends as opposed to mediocre guys on the OL and WR and giving them huge contracts. Youre going to have to give the money out in FA to whoever you sign why not pay for a better product and develop someone as wel.. We could easily draft for preent day depth and future starters (like the eagles constantly do)for the OL and sign Faneca, not to mention Bender will add to our depth and versatility bc he willl have pass protecting training and be versatile at OT and OG. I think to look at the Jets like they are 5 or 6 years away and take then mnetality you have will only lead to more losing...were 1 year removed from winning 10 games and have played a lot of games close this season, there are always teams that have bad records and win close only to win a lot of games the next season...
Jeff Fischer said in the paper the Jets are the best 3-11 team Ive ever seen!

We're not dead in the water, we can turn it around and build for the future this year. No need for pessimism although I dont blame you as I too am often pessimistic as a Jets fan...We need more blinding optimism on the board.

genom
12-20-2007, 11:06 PM
Alan Faneca played outstanding tonight vs the Rams. Very solid blocker in the running game and really is a nasty player. I wouldn't mind bringing him in as a stop gap for 2 or 3 years.

thetedginnshow
12-21-2007, 01:15 AM
About that Lions rumor... should we actually do that? I know Shaun Rogers is fantastic and I love him, but for the 3-4? I mean, sure, he could fit, and his impact may be felt, but I'd love to keep draft picks, and I wouldn't be completely sold that he could do a ton more than some random rookie we can draft for that position. Plus, that'd be far less expensive, and I'd imagine we'd be drafting someone with not such an extensive injury history as Rogers' (and I'd imagine it'd only get worse as he'd be taking on potentially three blockers a game).

The KC one is pretty interesting. I'm not sure I could believe Pennington and Coles going for KC's first, but if they were even willing to give us a second and a third and maybe something else, I'd pretty much take that. That'd be one hell of a deal if they could pull it off.

As for what you said to my comment about Thomas Jones, derza, well, true, we'd need a line no matter what. But, I was under the impression we should be making strides to upgrade in that area no matter what. Now I highly doubt we'd draft OL with our first rounder if we stayed where we were, but still, I do think McFadden would be worth more behind whatever line we came up with than Jones. He's going to be 30, which is generally when RBs taper off. If Leon Washington was bigger and more durable, I think he'd be pretty productive behind our line even as is. He just runs with more pop than Jones, as McFadden would. I'm not completely campaigning for McFadden, but I do think we definitely need more offensive firepower, and I feel that he'd certainly help, especially with Mangini's creative mind.

BroadwayJoe10
12-21-2007, 09:44 AM
About that Lions rumor... should we actually do that? I know Shaun Rogers is fantastic and I love him, but for the 3-4? I mean, sure, he could fit, and his impact may be felt, but I'd love to keep draft picks, and I wouldn't be completely sold that he could do a ton more than some random rookie we can draft for that position. Plus, that'd be far less expensive, and I'd imagine we'd be drafting someone with not such an extensive injury history as Rogers' (and I'd imagine it'd only get worse as he'd be taking on potentially three blockers a game).

The KC one is pretty interesting. I'm not sure I could believe Pennington and Coles going for KC's first, but if they were even willing to give us a second and a third and maybe something else, I'd pretty much take that. That'd be one hell of a deal if they could pull it off.

As for what you said to my comment about Thomas Jones, derza, well, true, we'd need a line no matter what. But, I was under the impression we should be making strides to upgrade in that area no matter what. Now I highly doubt we'd draft OL with our first rounder if we stayed where we were, but still, I do think McFadden would be worth more behind whatever line we came up with than Jones. He's going to be 30, which is generally when RBs taper off. If Leon Washington was bigger and more durable, I think he'd be pretty productive behind our line even as is. He just runs with more pop than Jones, as McFadden would. I'm not completely campaigning for McFadden, but I do think we definitely need more offensive firepower, and I feel that he'd certainly help, especially with Mangini's creative mind.


I am going to go i guess in lists of things that are less possible to more possible. The KC trade; like i was saying before the talks happened, but i have no idea when or how welcoming KC was to the trade. I am all for it if it could happen; i do beleive those two will be traded but maybe not to KC. I have a feeling no matter where chad goes, and barring any injury in the next two games he will be a starter somewhere and i feel coles will go with him. According to rotoworld he has expressed interest to friends that he is ready to move past the jets; for whatever it's worth, he has always shown class and i guarantee will even if he is traded. I think we owe it to him to be traded to a team that can use a starter.

Shaun rogers; i mentioned it as a trade possibility only because there were talks of it last year and i wouldn't doubt it if they were brought up again. The thing that i thought was most likely to happen with Rogers is possibly being released. Now, he has 3 years left on his contract and that would be a considerable cap hit, but from what has been rumored, marinelli has been extremely frustrated with his conditionion etc. Some of the reason for his problems are that he isn't as quick and his legs are taking a serious tole, becuase he weighs a considerable amount more than the listed 340 lbs. So, if marinelli could get some value out of a trade, I think he would do that. I beleive rogers could be a force in the middle. He is only 28 and IF he was forced to get in shape and play around 340 like he is listed, or even get down to 330 he could be the dominant player he was in 2004 or the first half of this year. And, there isn't a single person in this draft that i think could be as effective as rogers, but that is just my opinion.

As for our first rounder, I still am firmly backing vernon gholston. I've heard the rumors that the jets are in love with mcfadden, but what team in the draft isn't in love with the best player available? These rumors at the top of the draft happen every year and I really don't see us going that route unless considerable measures are taken on the OL through free agency. The one thing that I know we could do, is if we signed McFadden and say Faneca to a big contract the FO can give them a substantial part of their signing bonus or part of this money towards this next year. That way, this year we could probably sign say the couple big FAs and be under the cap slightly, but the following year we are right back to the situation we are in now. I am not an expert on the cap, but I know there are plenty of possibilities for this offseason.

Speaking of which, does anybody know when trades can start again??? I have been trying to figure it out, but havnt found a date...I am assuming its gonna be in marchish?? The season ends in February and the draft is in april, so i am assuming somewheres between there.

derza222
12-21-2007, 10:23 AM
how can you ignore the fact that Pete Kendall and Kevin Mawae were both FA signings around the age of 31 and didnt clog up our cap...Even if we did sign faneca to a big deal...Its one player with a bonus that clog up the back end not now, the exact same situation as Mawae and Kendall and we didn't break the bank...You are really trying to be cheap about the most important thing we need and considering we're going to have 20+ mil under the cap next season I think the idea of making one big move in FA and then moving to the draft...In case you noticed in my first mock I had the Jets selecting a LG in the draft as well to develop behind Faneca if we signed him...you really are ignoring the ideas that the team can addres CRITICAL NEEDS and sign 1 pro bowl OL overpriced which would pay a lot of dividends as opposed to mediocre guys on the OL and WR and giving them huge contracts. Youre going to have to give the money out in FA to whoever you sign why not pay for a better product and develop someone as wel.. We could easily draft for preent day depth and future starters (like the eagles constantly do)for the OL and sign Faneca, not to mention Bender will add to our depth and versatility bc he willl have pass protecting training and be versatile at OT and OG. I think to look at the Jets like they are 5 or 6 years away and take then mnetality you have will only lead to more losing...were 1 year removed from winning 10 games and have played a lot of games close this season, there are always teams that have bad records and win close only to win a lot of games the next season...
Jeff Fischer said in the paper the Jets are the best 3-11 team Ive ever seen!

We're not dead in the water, we can turn it around and build for the future this year. No need for pessimism although I dont blame you as I too am often pessimistic as a Jets fan...We need more blinding optimism on the board.


The thing is Mawae and Kendall both came to us when we were a more successful football team. We both know that we're a good football team capable of competing but we are by no means a playoff caliber team right now. Also, you saying the sign wouldn't clog up the cap now but more so for the back end means nothing, because the back end of the deal is what I'm worried about. That's when we're going to need to sign guys to put us over the top. The "we have the money now so we may as well spend it" approach just doesn't work for me. I've been a fan when we've spent money on some free agents and made the playoffs year after year. That's not enough for me. Let's get to the point where we can compete for the playoffs through small free agent signings and the draft and make that big sign that doesn't make a lot of sense to go from a playoff contender to a Super Bowl contender. I don't want to get to 10 wins next year and then plateau a bit from there. I don't think we're dead or hopeless or not capable of competing. Fact of the matter is as much as it's tough to see all of the elite players go by and not sign with us I love what we've been doing in the past offseasons with this regime because it's a smart way of going through free agency. The way I see it if we draft well we can make a jump to somewhere around 8-8 next season. Another good draft next year, maybe 9-7 with a more difficult schedule. We're competing for the playoffs. Year after that we end up in the 10-6, 11-5 range. And THEN we make that big sign to put us over the top, not to make the playoffs but to go deep into the playoffs. Maybe it'd take another year or so than what I'm saying but that's how I'd love to see it happen. Obviously we disagree here and neither one of us is going to change our minds but I just think building the team slowly is the way to go, and I also still do not see the need for a Pro Bowl left guard when a solid starter would be more than enough for a few years to develop a guy behind. That's just my take, agree to disagree I guess we're getting nowhere.

For the record, I am not saying we should not sign Faneca under any circumstances. But this "we need a Pro-Bowl left guard and should sign Faneca even if it means we need to overpay for him" talk is a little ridiculous IMO. There are many good but not great left guards that would be fine with this offense. I'm not saying a borderline starter, I'm saying a solid starter who is definitely considerably better than average but isn't a Pro Bowl guy. And really I think overpaying for anyone (i.e. paying them more than they are worth) is a mistake at this stage of the game. If we can get him for a reasonable contract sure, but I'm not excited to go out and overpay for a guy either. Deciding you need a player "at any cost" can only lead to bad things (you sign him for way too much money or you get incredibly disappointed and think all is lost when you don't).

As for Jones vs. McFadden obviously McFadden is the more talented player but Jones has young legs because he hasn't taken too many carries over the years so he's really not your typical over 30 back. Plus he keeps himself in tremendous physical shape, so I have no worries about him declining. I honestly think if we took McFadden with our first rounder it would be because we don't want him to slip to the Patriots or were going the BPA strategy. I just don't see how well the BPA strategy works when you have two competent players at the position that would do much better with actual starting caliber NFL players at all 5 line spots as opposed to just 3. Arkansas also has a running scheme which is gimmicky and that worries me a tad. What we need at RB is a bruiser for short yardage IMO, not a do it all top of the draft HR hitter.

Crickett
12-21-2007, 01:24 PM
About that Lions rumor... should we actually do that? I know Shaun Rogers is fantastic and I love him, but for the 3-4? I mean, sure, he could fit, and his impact may be felt, but I'd love to keep draft picks, and I wouldn't be completely sold that he could do a ton more than some random rookie we can draft for that position. Plus, that'd be far less expensive, and I'd imagine we'd be drafting someone with not such an extensive injury history as Rogers' (and I'd imagine it'd only get worse as he'd be taking on potentially three blockers a game).

Not convinced he could do a ton more than some random rookie?

http://www.nfl.com/players/paulsoliai/profile?id=SOL128376

There you go.

Me? I'd rather have the 6'3 350 2 time pro bowler at nose tackle.

BroadwayJoe10
12-21-2007, 02:45 PM
Not convinced he could do a ton more than some random rookie?

http://www.nfl.com/players/paulsoliai/profile?id=SOL128376

There you go.

Me? I'd rather have the 6'3 350 2 time pro bowler at nose tackle.

Exactly. Like i said before, when healthy, rogers is a probowl defensive tackle and could be one of the most dominant ones. He is young and almost ideal size for a 34 NT, but the only problem with him is getting him into shape and wanting to play. Regardless, he isn't on our team, but I would love if he were.

Another guy that i havn't brought up in a bit because i have totally forgot about him was Stacy Andrews. I think it was march of this year when we brought in both Andrews and ***, but didn't sign them because of the 2nd round tender they both had. It was said everywhere how we gave them the "red-carpet treatment" and we weren't planning on signing them, but doing scouting for the next year. I think a 2nd rounder on Andrews prior to this season would have been much, because he was such a risk. He had played only one year of organized football at Miss. and was basically learning this position in the NFL. This year, he has really shown improvement and the ability his 6'7 340lb frame and 4.9 forty has. At 26 years old i think he should most definately be high on our list. I fully expect to see our FO make strong pushes at both *** and Andrews this offseason.

I also understand the desire to get a pro-bowl offensive guard such as Faneca, but i think people are ruling out the possibility that someone like Jordan Grimes could have a large impact as well, at a much cheaper price. It isn't unheard of for a guard to come in and have an impact right away. I'm not saying he will or we'd even draft him, but there are other guys besides Duke Robinson that can come in and start and be very productive, look at marshal yanda. I just think when people get in the mindset that we need this one person or couple guys, that's when u are blinded by the downsides of it as well as tend to possibly overpay.

thetedginnshow
12-21-2007, 03:42 PM
Not convinced he could do a ton more than some random rookie?

http://www.nfl.com/players/paulsoliai/profile?id=SOL128376

There you go.

Me? I'd rather have the 6'3 350 2 time pro bowler at nose tackle.

That did nothing for me. Unless you're saying that the Jets are as poor of drafters as the Dolphins, in which case I'm sorry you think that way.

BroadwayJoe10
12-21-2007, 06:52 PM
That did nothing for me. Unless you're saying that the Jets are as poor of drafters as the Dolphins, in which case I'm sorry you think that way.

I think he was just trying to say that any rookie thrown into the NT spot can't just come in and do as well as a two time probowler. Solai has a good frame, but just isn't that good as of yet; there won't be any other guys who could probably do more than him ie. frank morton or such. Red Bryant and Jason Shirley are too tall to play NT but either way the point is Shaun Rogers if you can get him to play he can be a dominant DT. We shall see what our FO does tho.

hcbrad08
12-22-2007, 02:15 AM
I agree w BJoe and Crickett...Maybe itsa bc Pauli solai is so huge and is ebtter at playing th erun than the pass which DT in 43 are supposed to do, but still 3 tsckels come on. SHAUN RODGERS IS 10000xs better than any TRU NT in this draft. Unless you count Glenn Dorsey as a a pure NT then Rodgers at this point wo Dorsey playing a down in the NFL is comprable

thetedginnshow
12-22-2007, 03:15 AM
I think he was just trying to say that any rookie thrown into the NT spot can't just come in and do as well as a two time probowler. Solai has a good frame, but just isn't that good as of yet; there won't be any other guys who could probably do more than him ie. frank morton or such. Red Bryant and Jason Shirley are too tall to play NT but either way the point is Shaun Rogers if you can get him to play he can be a dominant DT. We shall see what our FO does tho.

I know what he's trying to say, but considering we've never seen Rogers do just that, as in dominate as a NT in the 3-4, plus his injury history, plus all the more money he'd get in comparison, I don't know if it's worth it if a rookie could do a job relatively similar.

BroadwayJoe10
12-22-2007, 09:47 AM
I know what he's trying to say, but considering we've never seen Rogers do just that, as in dominate as a NT in the 3-4, plus his injury history, plus all the more money he'd get in comparison, I don't know if it's worth it if a rookie could do a job relatively similar.

The injuries are understandable, but if it were a trade for Drob as suggested, he would be making less money than Drob. However, if he is just flat out released he won't demand a high contract, plus he is relatively young. There is no denying his flat out dominance when healthy and in shape, you gotta just look at the first half of this season. But, the question with him is always IF you can get him in shape and IF you can get him motivated to play every down etc. I would still take him over any NT in the draft and most of the ones next year. He is an inch or so taller than i would like, but he plays with great leverage, can handle double teams and still get penetration and not to mention he squeezes all the gaps and holds the point of attack. I for one would absolutely love him if mangini could get him to play.


The person i'm getting more growing interest in is stacy andrews. The more i read about him and see him, the more intrigued i am at his possibility and hoping the jets do end up pickin him up. It'll be interesting to see whether they pick up both gaay and andrews, the two players they "courted" highly before this years draft.

genom
12-22-2007, 12:58 PM
I know what he's trying to say, but considering we've never seen Rogers do just that, as in dominate as a NT in the 3-4, plus his injury history, plus all the more money he'd get in comparison, I don't know if it's worth it if a rookie could do a job relatively similar.

Shaun Rogers can occupy two blockers with ease. In that system he is sometimes asked to take on double teams while the linebackers come up to make the stop, and he does this very well.

Crickett
12-22-2007, 05:35 PM
I know what he's trying to say, but considering we've never seen Rogers do just that, as in dominate as a NT in the 3-4, plus his injury history, plus all the more money he'd get in comparison, I don't know if it's worth it if a rookie could do a job relatively similar.

1. I'm certainly glad you see what I'm trying to say. I figured after the last response that no other example was going to get it across because those teams "drafted poorly" including the Jets selection of Sione Pouha a few years ago. Keep in mind I was one of the few who liked the selection of Pouha at the time because I thought he could develop into a good nose tackle.

2. No, we haven't seen Rogers dominate in the 3-4, but the Jets aren't going to acquire any of the people who we have seen dominate in the 3-4, such as Jamal Williams or Vince Wilfork. But Rogers has been dominating in the 4-3 and unlike so many other options, he has the size, skillset and build necessary to succeed as a 3-4 NT. Nobody saw Ted Washington dominate in the 3-4...... until they did. If there is anyone in the NFL who isn't already a successful 3-4 NT who could make that transition, it's Shaun Rogers.

derza222
12-22-2007, 06:16 PM
Agreed, making a move for Rodgers would be huge. He's the best potential fit of any DT playing in a 4-3, and better than anybody in this draft. No way I want a rookie starting for us at that spot. The only question is motivation, and if we had that question after communicating with him I don't think we'd go after him at all. Plus it probably wouldn't require all that much to get him, I really think it would be a great move and if we actually pulled it off I'd be unbelievably excited.

thetedginnshow
12-22-2007, 10:01 PM
Decent points, but I just wouldn't want them to give and/or pay too much for an injury-prone DT that can dominate when he tries. But I trust the Jets will do the right thing, and either potentially get a steal like the Pats did with Moss for a 4th, or manage to motivate him somehow enough so he can dominate once more, and do so for a full season.

BroadwayJoe10
12-22-2007, 11:20 PM
Decent points, but I just wouldn't want them to give and/or pay too much for an injury-prone DT that can dominate when he tries. But I trust the Jets will do the right thing, and either potentially get a steal like the Pats did with Moss for a 4th, or manage to motivate him somehow enough so he can dominate once more, and do so for a full season.

Yaa, the key with him is going to be 100% motivation. Which, i'm sure if he ever gets a new contract it'll have weight clauses in it. But, it all depends on what marinelli wants to do with him; he could either give him one more chance to get in shape and then cut/trade him, or just trade him before the preseason starts. I for one am hoping they bring back the Drob for Rogers+pick talks, but i would be perfectly happy with Drob for Rogers straight up. I will say this for Drob, he always gives it his all and you don't see him doggin it like rogers, but rogers also is vastly out of shape around 370ish. This is probably the single trade i would want more than anything for our offseason. Having Shaun Rogers at the nose and drafting vernon gholston would give us a very respectable defense. That is just assuming Rogers plays decent, but if he plays up to his potential, it could completely give our defense a 180. I don't want to get all excited about it, because just like last year i got upset when nothing happened with it. But the idea of having a true NT causes a lot of excitement.

And if he were outright cut, he wouldn't demand a top dollar contract even if there was a "bidding war" on him. And if we traded him, his remaining three years i doubt is anywhere near the money left for drob.

derza222
12-23-2007, 10:24 AM
Exactly. One of the major appeals of Rodgers is that he wouldn't cost all that much financially (wouldn't require a huge deal if cut) or in a trade (D-Rob who isn't a good scheme fit, and we could even get picks in return. I still think we could stand to draft a backup NT like a Frank Morton even if we got Rodgers especially with his stamina and injury issues, but I see this as a low risk/very high reward scenario which is why I love it.

BroadwayJoe10
12-23-2007, 10:28 AM
Speaking of trades with the lions, possible players would be Drob and Vilma. I was wondering if anyone knew the status on vilma? From what i have heard on other boards and forums is that it was a general knee cleaning and it was said 100% that he didn't have to get microfracture surgery. His status is extremely important when discussing trade value; proven healthy and no real lingering affects he is a definate 1st rounder, but if not he seems to be more of a 3rd rounder and i would just assume keep him. They will obviously have to divulge the severity of the injury once teams inquire about his health, but until than i dont foresee them saying exactly what surgery it was.

derza222
12-23-2007, 11:51 AM
Speaking of trades with the lions, possible players would be Drob and Vilma. I was wondering if anyone knew the status on vilma? From what i have heard on other boards and forums is that it was a general knee cleaning and it was said 100% that he didn't have to get microfracture surgery. His status is extremely important when discussing trade value; proven healthy and no real lingering affects he is a definate 1st rounder, but if not he seems to be more of a 3rd rounder and i would just assume keep him. They will obviously have to divulge the severity of the injury once teams inquire about his health, but until than i dont foresee them saying exactly what surgery it was.

I'm sure he'll have to pass a physical to get to another team so I'd assume we'll work out a deal assuming he's healthy and then it'll get nullified if he doesn't pass it. That would seem to be a pretty reasonable scenario, but I really have no idea. We shall see I guess.

BroadwayJoe10
12-25-2007, 11:27 AM
Well, this is the second time i've heard about Coles and getting a new contract. I'm not sure if that means if they restructure it it's easier to move him or what, but i have a feeling he may not be going anywhere.


Laveranues Coles said Sunday that he and the Jets have begun preliminary talks about renegotiating his contract.

Coles has expressed dislike of coach Eric Mangini's coaching style in the past, and that his good friend Chad Pennington appears to be on his way out has led to speculation that Coles could demand a trade this offseason. Still, Coles seemed pleased with the talks. "I'm sure that everything (Mangini) can do within his power to make things happen and work for me to finish my career here he will, but there is a business side to it," he said. "Hopefully we can just reach something."


Oh, and Clemens looks to be starting this weekend; so that should allow us possibly some comfort going into the offseason. Assuming of of course that he plays well. (lets hope) Becuase, with a good game that gives us plenty of positive things to think about before the draft before all of the speculation about getting a new QB i'm tierd of hearing about.

derza222
12-25-2007, 11:47 AM
I really hope LC isn't going anywhere. He's a great leader for this team and a fantastic target for a young QB. The KC trade would be hard to pass up but it appears that it isn't a realistic possibility. However, losing Coles would hurt and would also open up a large hole on a team that has many holes as it is. I think a wideout is still a need but we don't need an NFL ready guy and we don't need to spend a high pick on one, though we could if the right guy becomes available. We'll see if any trades come up with other guys but I think we're in decent position to continue to build our team this year. Next week's game is going to be huge for draft position as well, should be interesting to see where we end up and what guys we can focus on at that spot. I wonder what we'll target if we end up in that 5-8 range as well. Should be interesting. Does anybody know what our potential range is?

Edit: Looks like we can end up somewhere between 2 and 7. Right now we're at the third spot. Ignoring strength of schedule, if we lose and the Rams win we end up at 2. If we both lose we end up at 3. And if we win, based on the combinations of other teams that win we can end up all the way down at 7. KC would obviously leapfrog us, and if they lose Baltimore, Oakland, and Atlanta would leapfrog us as well. The Rams are playing in Arizona, the Falcons are playing Seattle at home, Baltimore is hosting the Steelers, and Oakland is hosting the Chargers.

BroadwayJoe10
12-25-2007, 10:24 PM
I really hope LC isn't going anywhere. He's a great leader for this team and a fantastic target for a young QB. The KC trade would be hard to pass up but it appears that it isn't a realistic possibility. However, losing Coles would hurt and would also open up a large hole on a team that has many holes as it is. I think a wideout is still a need but we don't need an NFL ready guy and we don't need to spend a high pick on one, though we could if the right guy becomes available. We'll see if any trades come up with other guys but I think we're in decent position to continue to build our team this year. Next week's game is going to be huge for draft position as well, should be interesting to see where we end up and what guys we can focus on at that spot. I wonder what we'll target if we end up in that 5-8 range as well. Should be interesting. Does anybody know what our potential range is?

Edit: Looks like we can end up somewhere between 2 and 7. Right now we're at the third spot. Ignoring strength of schedule, if we lose and the Rams win we end up at 2. If we both lose we end up at 3. And if we win, based on the combinations of other teams that win we can end up all the way down at 7. KC would obviously leapfrog us, and if they lose Baltimore, Oakland, and Atlanta would leapfrog us as well. The Rams are playing in Arizona, the Falcons are playing Seattle at home, Baltimore is hosting the Steelers, and Oakland is hosting the Chargers.

i beleive, like most people have been saying the last month or so, that we will be drafting more towards the 10 spot than the 1 spot. I didn't go back and check, but I am pretty sure someone said 10 and someone said 5 and we all compromised at 7 haha. So, maybe it'll be a blessing in disguise. If we win, we can hope for a good game from clemens and that will allow us less doubt (even though he needs a full season to really evaluate) about him entering the offseason, it'll build momentum, give the players some hope and pride and possibly make our draft choice that much easier. It could be that us being at 7 allows for the right player to fall to us and being that much lower (3 to 7) allows us more possibilites for a trade down if thats what we want, because the value is significantly less. I still am definately pulling for vernon gholston, but i am somewhat worried that oakland will take him.

hcbrad08
12-26-2007, 12:32 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12242007/sports/jets/coles_looking_forward_to__next_season_an_810029.ht m

I have hope for Coles....But Pennington not so much (although you all know I love him...no h0m*)... I think Coles, who I respect more than anyone on the Jets, knows his OVERALL value and that he can lead a team to a super bowl, read the article it says a lot for a few words.

Merry Christmas. I checked for Gholston under my tree only to find a note saying, "Wait for April!" -Santa.

Oh Chris Cringle you slay me...
NOW GIVE ME VERNON GHOLSTON A$$HOLE!

derza222
12-26-2007, 10:44 AM
Here's a question. If we make significant free agency moves, would you be willing to trade up for Gholston? I think we've all decided we really like him and his value is through the roof to the point where we may not be able to get him if we win Sunday which seems very likely. But is he that valuable to the future of our team?? I never thought I would consider trading up with so many needs but I'm tempted. And if we do land at 7, who are we going to target?

ncstateviking
12-26-2007, 06:25 PM
i think trading up is very possible. our front office has shown no hesitation at all moving around the draft to land the players they want and they keep hitting with the picks. so if they decide gholston is worth it...i think there will be no hesitation to make the move.

BroadwayJoe10
12-27-2007, 02:20 AM
I think it's a valid question whether or not we make significant upgrades in FA. I think the one thing that our FO has shown us is there ability to scout talent and go and get the players that we want; perfect examples are Revis and Harris. I think if gholston is the one player we want (or possibly long if thats who they want) than they will go get him if they have the ability to do so. The draft is the one thing i have 100% faith in our management in; and there is a rule that each team needs to spend a certain percentage of their cap space each year. It basically says they can't be the florida marlins who operate at such a low team salary; so it pretty much says that we will definately be spending money. Whether that is a contract extension to rhodes, big free agent pickups or both, we have to spend money this offseason. I am not sure on the percentage so i can't give you the amount of money we need to spend, but i have a feeling that we will be diving into the FA pool this offseason.

derza222
12-27-2007, 11:03 AM
I think it's a valid question whether or not we make significant upgrades in FA. I think the one thing that our FO has shown us is there ability to scout talent and go and get the players that we want; perfect examples are Revis and Harris. I think if gholston is the one player we want (or possibly long if thats who they want) than they will go get him if they have the ability to do so. The draft is the one thing i have 100% faith in our management in; and there is a rule that each team needs to spend a certain percentage of their cap space each year. It basically says they can't be the florida marlins who operate at such a low team salary; so it pretty much says that we will definately be spending money. Whether that is a contract extension to rhodes, big free agent pickups or both, we have to spend money this offseason. I am not sure on the percentage so i can't give you the amount of money we need to spend, but i have a feeling that we will be diving into the FA pool this offseason.

I think that has to be a top priority this offseason. We cannot let Rhodes get anywhere as he is a stud and a leader on this defense. A couple of mid-level signings in free agency along with extending Rhodes and paying a high draft pick should do the trick. I have no doubt we will make some signings in free agency (and I thought you made a great call on the Andrews and **** stuff last offseason) but I'm not sure if we're going to go with big contracts or smaller ones. Medium stuff has been where we seem willing to go and if we have to dish out medium contracts for guys like those two, Suggs, Berrian, etc I'd be okay with that.

BroadwayJoe10
12-30-2007, 12:00 AM
I've been pretty puzzled over the idea of our draft spot for the last couple days. If we are sitting around 7 and mcfadden, long, long, gholston are both gone i really am not sure who i would select; there isn't a single person who stands out to me. I would have to imagine trade down if possible, but if we are forced to choose someone i honestly have no idea who it wuld be. I am still keeping my eye out on Tommy Blake and one of the main reasons is because we had scouts visit him in the beginning of the year. From what i have read his teamates have said he is "the old tommy again" and that he is smiling and happy to be playing football. He was quoted as saying that he beleives that right now he is a 2-3 round pick, but knows he is way better than that but his only focus is on getting in shape. He said he wants to prove them wrong. I watched the kid and his speed was very impressive in his last game where he recorded a sack weighing about 280+. From what i've read he can play anywhere from 255-275 and be in top shape. He said he may have trouble answering all the questions nfl teams ask him about his mishaps this season and i think this could be one of the times mangini's give everyone a chance thing really paying off (besides elam, because that seems to be a fantastic find..one of the real reasons i think rhodes is playing better in the 2nd half of the year).

Here is a video of blake's speed. Bare in mind that he weighs 260+

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4500006698130411671&q=tommy+blake&total=331&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

hcbrad08
12-30-2007, 01:57 AM
great clip and great example of hustle that exemplifies what mangini lvoes...


Dre Moore played awfully last night. Unless his numbers are off the charts 64 310 4.5 Im not using a 2nd rounder on him. He took plays off during the run and isnt fast enough to be a speed rusher. I liked that he could bull rush but he wasnt as impressive as you would want a 34 DE taken in the 2nd round to be. We'll see, Ive seen a portion of the whole body of work but its not a 2nd rd caliber to me.

Im also wondering if the Jets are going to address a lot of defense in the draft. I have a funny feeling even though I think we're all in consensus we need some new faces up front that we might choose to go OLB or DE NOT BOTH. I dunno I hope we hit all points like BJoe said we can make the playoffs next year and then its 3-4 more wins and thats the mountain top. We can play with anyone, BUT CAN WE BEAT THEM IN THE END? thats the question this team needs to ask itself.

BroadwayJoe10
12-30-2007, 11:05 AM
great clip and great example of hustle that exemplifies what mangini lvoes...


Dre Moore played awfully last night. Unless his numbers are off the charts 64 310 4.5 Im not using a 2nd rounder on him. He took plays off during the run and isnt fast enough to be a speed rusher. I liked that he could bull rush but he wasnt as impressive as you would want a 34 DE taken in the 2nd round to be. We'll see, Ive seen a portion of the whole body of work but its not a 2nd rd caliber to me.

Im also wondering if the Jets are going to address a lot of defense in the draft. I have a funny feeling even though I think we're all in consensus we need some new faces up front that we might choose to go OLB or DE NOT BOTH. I dunno I hope we hit all points like BJoe said we can make the playoffs next year and then its 3-4 more wins and thats the mountain top. We can play with anyone, BUT CAN WE BEAT THEM IN THE END? thats the question this team needs to ask itself.

I too was extremely dissapointed in Moore's play last night. To me, he is definately not worth the high 2nd that I had him as coming into this game.

I too am interesting on how we are going to spend out picks and I feel that we will have a strong indication of this based on our actions in free agency. Does anybody know when this starts?? Is it right after the superbowl, or are there different dates for players and coaches etc.

derza222
12-30-2007, 12:09 PM
No clue of when free agency starts. Also I agree with hcbrad I don't know if we're going to address both DE and OLB, I think if we addressed just one it would be OLB but we do need both. Part of me wonders if we're going to make offense a priority to ensure we don't hinder Clemens' development. Either way I'd really rather solidify one side of the ball in FA and work the other in the draft. For example, sign a couple of OL's and work defense along with a big wideout in the midrounds. Or sign an OLB/DE and a corner and draft offense and a DE/OLB. Something like that where we have a little more focus in FA and in the draft as well. I'd probably rather sign offense and draft defense but I think it shows some organization and focus and allows us to do a better job addressing our needs, and if we do need to get vets anywhere it's probably more important on offense IMO.

As far as Moore and Blake I really don't think either was all that impressive. Moore as said didn't look good, but Blake also looked slow and overweight. If he sticks where he is now I don't think we can draft him but if he slims down and gets faster then he could be draftable. Anybody have a gut feeling on where we go if we stick at 7?

derza222
12-30-2007, 11:09 PM
Alright so we have the #6 pick, which is far better than #7 IMO. Picking ahead of us in some order will be Miami, St. Louis, Atlanta, KC, and Oakland. I'm going to assume that KC is going to go OL and Atlanta is going to go QB (their owner has repeatedly said he wants to draft a QB). This would mean that Jake Long and some QB, probably Matt Ryan, is off the board. This would leave McFadden, Gholston, Chris Long, and Dorsey to probably be on the board. Odds are Gholston or Chris Long will slip to us. Worst case scenario is probably the three defensive guys, McFadden, and Ryan or Jake Long is off the board. If Ryan's off the board we could get a trade up for Long but that's unlikely and we'd probably have to take Jake Long. If Jake Long's off the board maybe we'll catch somebody trading up for a QB. If McFadden or Dorsey (arguably the two best prospects in the draft) slip to our spot we can probably get a good trade down. And if Chris Long or Gholston is on the board (I think it's more likely that Gholston slips because I can't see the Raiders passing on Chris Long) either one is a solid pick. However I'm pretty sure we'll either have a good trade down with McFadden or Dorsey or we'll be able to take Chris Long or Gholston with our pick, because it seems likely Atlanta goes QB and KC goes OL. I'm actually pretty content with our position even though we won, more so than I thought I was going to be. Definitely not unhappy we pulled off the win and have some momentum heading into next season.

hcbrad08
01-01-2008, 04:39 PM
Completely agree, I like picking where we are the only benefit if we lost the game was that if we trade down we could get more, but where we're sitting a lot of things can happen. I like a lot of possibilities.

Crickett
01-01-2008, 04:50 PM
#6 is a prime position for the Jets IMO. It allows them to draft Gholston without reaching badly or feeling any remorse that they didn't pick Chris Long, because he's probably not going to be there at #6 anyway.

Miami - Likely to draft Dorsey or one of the Long's.
St. Louis - Same
Atlanta - Likely to draft Matt Ryan, Darren McFadden or Jake Long.
Kansas City - If there is one thing they don't need, its a running back. But if there is another thing they don't need, it's a defensive end. No threat to draft Gholston. Maybe a cornerback to replace one of their aging corners if Jake Long is off the board?
Oakland - Probably the only team I'm worried about to take Gholston, but looking at their defense, if I were them, I'd go with Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey if he hasn't been selected yet. After all, their run defense was 31st and who is going to help them there more, Ellis (who doesn't fit the 3-4 IMO) or Gholston?

tishdog
01-01-2008, 07:39 PM
Anyone see Long's play today? He was phenomenal.

BroadwayJoe10
01-01-2008, 10:58 PM
I thought long had a great game, but his play was never the problem i had with him. I always loved his play, his motor and everything about him, the drawing line was and will always be his weight. He is just too light to play 34 DE and unless he drops weight and puts up crazy agility drills i don't see him being the right selection for the jets. I still think the best selection is going to be vernon gholston.

After hearing mangini praise harris on his ability to rush the qb, i think whoever our DC next year is gonna be blitzing him more. This may sound crazy, but the jets may have a player an offense will have to scheme around haha. I am praying gholston is our choice, because if Ryan comes to the jets, he'll inherit a solid secondary (hopefully we can get an upgrade at #2 CB) and be able to blitz the LB's like crazy.

hcbrad08
01-02-2008, 01:48 AM
A couple of mocks for the top 5 leading up to our pick..essentially my prediction/hope of what we are left with...

1)Miami: G. Dorsey
2)St. Louis: C. Long
3)Atlanta: M. Ryan
4)Kansas City: J. Long
5)Oakland: D. McFadden

Leaves us: Gholston, Jenkins (both), Clady.
I really think Gholston is the only time we don't trade out of this pick

1)Miami: G. Dorsey
2)St. Louis: J. Long
3)Atlanta: D. McFadden
4)Kansas City: C. Long
5)Oakland: V. Gholston

Leaves us: Jenkins (both), Clady.
In a scenario like this I want a trade down

Anyone else think another team would take someone different as of today?

Crickett
01-02-2008, 03:46 AM
A couple of mocks for the top 5 leading up to our pick..essentially my prediction/hope of what we are left with...

1)Miami: G. Dorsey
2)St. Louis: C. Long
3)Atlanta: M. Ryan
4)Kansas City: J. Long
5)Oakland: D. McFadden

Leaves us: Gholston, Jenkins (both), Clady.
I really think Gholston is the only time we don't trade out of this pick

1)Miami: G. Dorsey
2)St. Louis: J. Long
3)Atlanta: D. McFadden
4)Kansas City: C. Long
5)Oakland: V. Gholston

Leaves us: Jenkins (both), Clady.
In a scenario like this I want a trade down

Anyone else think another team would take someone different as of today?

I think Oakland would take Sedrick Ellis ahead of Gholston (or at least I hope they would) and I can't imagine Kansas City drafting a DE unless they let the league's leading pass rusher go (and I doubt that).

NIN1984
01-02-2008, 10:08 AM
Its really hard to tell whats going on right now but IMO, Chris Long or Vernon Gholston will go #1 overall to Miami. We don't know what defense they will use 3-4 or 4-3, with Long or Gholston it doesn't matter because they both can play in a 4-3 or 3-4.

With NO trades...

1. Dolphins - Vernon Gholston - Aging defense needs new playmakers

2. Rams - Chris Long - heard rumors that Rams might move to a 3-4, if that's true. Long would be the perfect pick, if not he can still play in a 4-3

3. Raiders - Darren McFadden - Could go Dorsey but McFadden is McFadden, Raiders need a NT more than a UT so they can take McFadden and than target Red Bryant in the 2nd.

4. Falcons - Matt Ryan - Falcons need a QB but if they end up with the 3rd pick it should be interesting to see what they do, if McFadden is on the board.

5. Chiefs - Glenn Dorsey - Chiefs might use the ZBS next season so they might hold off on drafting O-line. Dorsey would be perfect for Herm's cover 2 defense.

6. Jets - Jake Long - Long would be best off a RT in the NFL and that's right where the Jets need him. (do Jet fans like this pick?)

Whoever wins the coin flip between Raiders and Falcons will take McFadden if he is still on the board at #3 IMO

Crickett
01-02-2008, 11:26 AM
6. Jets - Jake Long - Long would be best off a RT in the NFL and that's right where the Jets need him. (do Jet fans like this pick?)

Whoever wins the coin flip between Raiders and Falcons will take McFadden if he is still on the board at #3 IMO

I'd have a problem taking Jake Long in the top 5 to play right tackle, but since the Jets aren't picking in the top five............ I'd be borderline.

I think it's a moot point as I can't believe KC would pass on Jake Long.

derza222
01-02-2008, 05:07 PM
I'd have a problem taking Jake Long in the top 5 to play right tackle, but since the Jets aren't picking in the top five............ I'd be borderline.

I think it's a moot point as I can't believe KC would pass on Jake Long.

Agreed. And in the case KC takes long we could trade down with a team looking to grab Dorsey.

throwback54milkman
01-02-2008, 06:50 PM
any scenario where u see us moving up to get Gholston or either one of the Longs, if persay KC gets the 3rd pick we could set up a package with Chad and exchange some picks to ensure we get the player we want.

hcbrad08
01-03-2008, 12:59 AM
NO CHANCE we trade up after 2007 draft...last draft was proof trading up is for teams who think they are there or almost there or those who have a lot of picks. And even then its risky...I think given the immense amount of needs and the slot we sit at I can only see us picking gholston or trading down w someone like dallas (should mcfadden be on the board.) or others simply for the 6th pick and a guy they covet.

Crickett: youre right if and only if Jared Allen goes that is the only reason I would have Long going to KC... and considering I think KC is a worse team that the Jets and considering our needs I can def see a scenario where Allen is allowed to go and they rebuild...You can understand that, right? I do see them letting him go if they think Long is their guy, bc they have Tamba Hali and remember its HERM him and his FO are about as smart as a new born.

Oh and the FB from WV Owen Schmitt if the Jets take him I will def NOT be upset...He's a real FB.

ncstateviking
01-03-2008, 03:56 AM
i completely disagree with you. why do bad teams need to stock up on lesser players? i would be ok only drafting 2 players per year if we get guys like revis and harris. bad teams need studs to build around. not role players.

Crickett
01-03-2008, 10:43 AM
i completely disagree with you. why do bad teams need to stock up on lesser players? i would be ok only drafting 2 players per year if we get guys like revis and harris. bad teams need studs to build around. not role players.

The mid to late rounds is where you find gems. And those gems can make teams great. But getting guys like Revis and Harris is great, but if the Jets don't get a few more Kerry Rhodes', Laveranues Coles' and Jerricho Cotchery's, they're never going to be more than what the Washington Redskins are now.

hcbrad08
01-03-2008, 12:31 PM
i completely disagree with you. why do bad teams need to stock up on lesser players? i would be ok only drafting 2 players per year if we get guys like revis and harris. bad teams need studs to build around. not role players.


Yea and in a draft with no true CANT MISS players at the top of the draft why would we trade up and if you say Darren McFadden is a can't miss player you're dreaming. And Crickett is right a team improves by finding more gems...
Yea Revis and Harris are great, but Bender and Stuckey were non existant which would you prefer...
Brick, Mangold, Leon, Brad Smith, E Smith, Clemens where you get 2 greats some good and a couple of oks OR
Revis and Harris 2 greats.

I really think you have a very top down mentality in terms of the draft always looking up to top prospects who also command TOP dollar instead of great value something that builds teams like the Patriots....

Example of great value=Kerry Rhodes 5th rd pick salary for 2008 580,000
Example of "GREAT PLAYER" at the top of the draft=Dewayne Robertson 4th overall 2008 salary 12 million +

who would you rather have?


OH....and an example of role players winning...look no further than the first 2 superbowls the Patriots won. Name a breakaway reciever or RB. They had an inexperienced QB and role players who played their roles well...thats all you need...The 1998 Jets were the same way...granted these teams have some big play ability, like any team in the NFL but ultimately a team of role players with a couple of studs beats a team of studs who don't play their roles well.

Think about it.

NOW TELL ME: which philosophy is better?

BroadwayJoe10
01-04-2008, 04:55 PM
I think we are going to have to add defensive coordinators to the list of potential offseason aquisitions. I am extremely pissed off that Ryan is staying with the raiders, but enough of that because we need to find someone to replace sutton.

hcbrad08
01-05-2008, 02:53 AM
bjoe im so upset can we get a list goin of potentials...i have no idea where to start...ill exmaine a list...as i said I dont know but still id like to see if somewone knows those available...

BroadwayJoe10
01-05-2008, 10:20 AM
I've been trying to get a list together, but i have really no idea. I know that cinci fired there DC, but i don't want him. I heard Rex Ryan is available, but i see him getting one of the head coaching positions. I'm pretty sure we are going to have to ask certain teams to interview their coaches.

Also, i just heard that Brian Schottenheimer is going to be intreviewing for the head coaching position at atlanta. I really do'nt see him getting it at all, but that would not be ideal for clemens getting a new oc.