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View Full Version : Michael Vick ordered by Goodell to not attend Camp


Shiver
07-23-2007, 05:35 PM
I saw it on PFT and they sourced Fox 5 News in Atlanta:

LINK (http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3856472&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1)

UPDATE

LINK (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7052768)

That's pretty big news.

TheChampIsHere
07-23-2007, 05:36 PM
Maybe its true but I never believe anything on PFT if thats the only place its being reported.

princefielder28
07-23-2007, 05:37 PM
I would assume this will be a paid leave of absence......smart move for him; he can focus on his trial and in addition the Falcons can create chemistry with the QBs that will be there everyday of the week

Paranoidmoonduck
07-23-2007, 05:39 PM
I don't think Vick had a whole lot of choice here. He wanted to play football, and who knows, that may have helped. If he had played well while in court, it would have at least impressed some fans.

This is definitely the right move for Atlanta and the NFL though. The distraction would have been massive.

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 05:39 PM
If he leaves, does that mean the end of Vick in ATL?

Crazy_Chris
07-23-2007, 05:41 PM
If its true its a good move for Vick, The Falcons Orginization and the NFL.

D-Unit
07-23-2007, 05:43 PM
If he leaves, does that mean the end of Vick in ATL?
I'm willing to bet that he's already played his last down in his NFL Career. What he's doing is best for the game. I'm happy to see that he has the respect to do this. Props to him for that.

ATL should go after Culpepper... if he's still out there...

BamaFalcon59
07-23-2007, 05:48 PM
So...

Long, McFadden, Brohm, Baker, or Woodson? It looks like we will have 3 top 40 picks.

Shiver
07-23-2007, 05:48 PM
I'm willing to bet that he's already played his last down in his NFL Career. What he's doing is best for the game. I'm happy to see that he has the respect to do this. Props to him for that.

ATL should go after Culpepper... if he's still out there...

I definitely agree, on both counts.

princefielder28
07-23-2007, 05:49 PM
I'm willing to bet that he's already played his last down in his NFL Career. What he's doing is best for the game. I'm happy to see that he has the respect to do this. Props to him for that.

ATL should go after Culpepper... if he's still out there...

I agree that he has probably played his last down. As far as bringing in Culpepper, I don't know how much that'll help them. I say they start D.J. and see if he can transform into a solid starter and if not they use their Top 10 pick on a QB.

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 05:52 PM
I'm willing to bet that he's already played his last down in his NFL Career. What he's doing is best for the game. I'm happy to see that he has the respect to do this. Props to him for that.

ATL should go after Culpepper... if he's still out there...

I think in terms of his case, its not wise of him to leave the Falcons. Because let's face it, as long as he's in the NFL and playing for a team, he'll have more leverage and sympathy and makes it easier for him to get a lighter sentence.

Out of sight, out of mind. If he leaves, he loses that leverage of being this valuable NFL star who's presence is required in the sport. I think its not a wise move by him if he does this.

JagHombre22
07-23-2007, 06:00 PM
how about we all just wait and let a credible source cite this story...because I don't believe for a minute that he's going to get paid to sit and go to trial...why would arthur blank fund Mike Vick's lawyer fees and what not? He's not going to put his reputation on the line for a man that everyone has already convicted...

Geo
07-23-2007, 06:02 PM
Good news for the Atlanta Falcons, they didn't need that abhorrent media circus drowning their training camp.

I'm still very bummed that the media won't be hounding the Patriots for the purpose of seeing the Randy Moss experiment (which I don't think will be as successful as others do).

BigDawg819
07-23-2007, 06:03 PM
If he leaves, does that mean the end of Vick in ATL?

IMO he's done in the NFL period. There's an article out there from a former prosecutor's perspective on the case and he feels that the case will be more about gambling then it will be dogfighting and if Vick was gambling and convicted on it Goodell will have to ban him.

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 06:05 PM
IMO he's done in the NFL period. There's an article out there from a former prosecutor's perspective on the case and he feels that the case will be more about gambling then it will be dogfighting and if Vick was gambling and convicted on it Goodell will have to ban him.

Wowzers. Chris Houston better turn into a shutdown corner now. Because they ultimately gave up Schaub for him. If Schaub plays well in Houston, Atlanta's GM will never hear the end of it.

Shiver
07-23-2007, 06:10 PM
Wowzers. Chris Houston better turn into a shutdown corner now. Because they ultimately gave up Schaub for him. If Schaub plays well in Houston, Atlanta's GM will never hear the end of it.

Hindsight is a hilarious thing. At the time Rich McKay fleeced the Texans, by getting a mid-1st round value for a backup QB, who for one game lit up a lousy pass defense. If Schaub is great, the Falcons will be the ones who got "fleeced." Even if Justin Blalock and whomever they take in the 2nd round next year turn out to be great.

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 06:16 PM
Hindsight is a hilarious thing. At the time Rich McKay fleeced the Texans, by getting a mid-1st round value for a backup QB, who for one game lit up a lousy pass defense. If Schaub is great, the Falcons will be the ones who got "fleeced." Even if Justin Blalock and whomever they take in the 2nd round next year turn out to be great.

I think it will turn out to be a win win situation. I liked Chris Houston alot coming out, and if he can keep his head on straight, I think he'll be a good corner opposite of Hall. Especially in Zimmer's man coverage scheme. I think the Falcons have to roll the dice on Cullpepper now. He'll be available for cheap, and if Petrino can do for him what he planned on doing for Vick, then the season may become salvageable.

Shiver
07-23-2007, 06:18 PM
The Chris Houston pick was our 2nd round pick. The one from the Texans turned into Justin Blalock.

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 06:19 PM
The Chris Houston pick was our 2nd round pick. The one from the Texans turned into Justin Blalock.

Blalock will be a stud. I think they got a 2nd round steal out of him. Works even better for Atlanta then.

Moses
07-23-2007, 06:22 PM
Vick has hired a lawyer. Billy Martin is his name. I don't know much about him, but apparently he represented Monica Lewinsky during the Bill Clinton scandal. He's well connected in Washington and has a sterling reputation. Anybody know more?

bigbluedefense
07-23-2007, 06:24 PM
Vick has hired a lawyer. Billy Martin is his name. I don't know much about him, but apparently he represented Monica Lewinsky during the Bill Clinton scandal. He's well connected in Washington and has a sterling reputation. Anybody know more?

He represented a long list of NBA goons from what Ive heard. Vick has plenty of money, you know he hired the best money can buy.

Moses
07-23-2007, 06:27 PM
He represented a long list of NBA goons from what Ive heard. Vick has plenty of money, you know he hired the best money can buy.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/sports.aol.com/fanhouse/media/2007/07/billymartinjaysonwilliams.jpg

He's represented Jayson Williams (NBA), Bill Campbell (Atlanta Mayor), Monica and Lewinsky (White House Intern) among others. Very successful and proven trial lawyer from what I've read. Should be interesting to see who else he adds to the team.

D-Unit
07-23-2007, 06:40 PM
Wowzers. Chris Houston better turn into a shutdown corner now. Because they ultimately gave up Schaub for him. If Schaub plays well in Houston, Atlanta's GM will never hear the end of it.
I honestly believe that's a BIG IF... on Schaub becoming a great QB. IMO, he's very overrated. I thought he was overrated on the Falcons, when all their fan's thought he was amazing... and I still think he's overrated. He'll be LUCKY if he turns out to be any better than Steve Beuerlein did outside of Dallas.

Shiver
07-23-2007, 06:48 PM
Here is the latest from NFL Insider Jay Glazer:

LINK (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7052768)

The first of what could be a handful of actions taken against Michael Vick by the commissioner's office has been decided.

FOXSports.com has learned that commissioner Roger Goodell has ordered Vick not to attend Falcons training camp as his first step in determining Vick's future in the league. That would give the league office more time to assess the facts and judge additional facts that may come to light in the next month.

This is just the first part of what could be an extensive punishment for Vick's alleged involvement in a gruesome dogfighting operation at a property owned by him in Virginia.

There could also be a strong push to sit Vick down for the year while he clears up his personal problems. In fact, this action could even convince Vick to take a year-long leave of absence, which would certainly be the simplest resolution for all parties.

Vick is already facing federal charges for the dogfighting fiasco that has turned the Falcons upside down and could face state charges related to the operation.

Calls to the league office for comment have not yet been returned.

BigDawg819
07-23-2007, 06:48 PM
I honestly believe that's a BIG IF... on Schaub becoming a great QB. IMO, he's very overrated. I thought he was overrated on the Falcons, when all their fan's thought he was amazing... and I still think he's overrated. He'll be LUCKY if he turns out to be any better than Steve Beuerlein did outside of Dallas.

Beuerlein had a couple of good years in Carolina..............

D-Unit
07-23-2007, 06:59 PM
Beuerlein had a couple of good years in Carolina..............
Yeah, he even had 1 Pro Bowl year... Still never became the QB he was hyped up to be. ...and even if Schaub does that, he's won't make the trade out of ATL regrettable. It's gonna take a helluva career to make it regrettable.

BamaFalcon59
07-23-2007, 07:12 PM
Well, you figure we made ourselves in position (position being key word) to land Landry/ Peterson/ Brown, landed a first round calibre prospect in Justin Blalock, and will have another second round pick next year. We should be OK IMO as far as the Schaub trade. I was never too impressed with him.

Jay
07-23-2007, 07:31 PM
It's the beginning of the end...

BigDawg819
07-23-2007, 07:42 PM
It's the beginning of the end...

*Grabs a beer and some popcorn* cause its going to be a hell of a ride.........

D-Unit
07-23-2007, 07:49 PM
I wonder if Vick will take down others with him. You can't make me believe that not a single one of his teammates knew what he was doing. Of course they knew. I wouldn't be surprised if the Falcons Management knew. I wouldn't be surprised if their owner knew! Vick might just be the first domino. Once he starts sinking, he'll be trying to grab everyone else as well... my guess.

BigDawg819
07-23-2007, 07:54 PM
I wonder if Vick will take down others with him. You can't make me believe that not a single one of his teammates knew what he was doing. Of course they knew. I wouldn't be surprised if the Falcons Management knew. I wouldn't be surprised if their owner knew! Vick might just be the first domino. Once he starts sinking, he'll be trying to grab everyone else as well... my guess.

Well if we're going down that path then other players from other teams had to know, hell even other sports. This could have the potential to be a Pandora's Box disaster for sports in general.

Shiver
07-23-2007, 08:00 PM
Well if we're going down that path then other players from other teams had to know, hell even other sports. This could have the potential to be a Pandora's Box disaster for sports in general.

This and the NBA ref scandal could do a lot of damage to this nation's sports.

diabsoule
07-23-2007, 08:01 PM
I'm willing to bet that he's already played his last down in his NFL Career. What he's doing is best for the game. I'm happy to see that he has the respect to do this. Props to him for that.

ATL should go after Culpepper... if he's still out there...

I agree with you too. I don't think we'll see Vick again in the NFL.

VY10
07-23-2007, 08:04 PM
This and the NBA ref scandal could do a lot of damage to this nation's sports.

Ya, but we will still be way above all other country's leagues. Haha, look at the Italian soccer league. They were freaking rigging games.

BamaFalcon59
07-23-2007, 08:17 PM
For the Falcons sake they better hope he is involved to a lesser degree, takes a plea bargin for reduced/ little jail time, public image is slightly restored, and he returns.

I hate the thought of not winning for another 3-5 years or more. This team has a ton of potential needs, tons of changes going on on defense and in coaching philosophy, the Mike Vick incident(s), etc etc. If Vick is done with us then we take a QB high next year. That alone probably delays winning for 3 years, because that is usually when a QB finally starts to hit his prime.

Even worse is if a QB fails. You waste 3 years trying to develope him, fire the coach you employed after you fired the last one, draft another QB and hire another coach hoping for success. Detroit Lions for example (Steve Mariucci and Joey Harrington, fails and trys again with Rod Merinelli, stop-gap Jon Kitna and young and seemingly promising Drew Stanton).

On the other hand you have Vick, who while not amazing is above average and has potential when paired with a 'QB mastermind' in Petrino. You have no hole at the most important position, and with your top 5 pick the year without Vick you add some pieces to the puzzle (Jake Long/ Darren McFadden/ DeSean Jackson/ Sam Baker/ Barry Richardson/ Calais Campbell/ Kenny Phillips, etc.). I want to win.

The Unseen
07-23-2007, 08:19 PM
Good move, whether it is the inital move or the only move. Vick at training camp would cause alot of unnecessary tension. A training camp atmosphere is much closer and intimate for the fans, and much less security. To subject an otherwise normal training camp to hordes of media coverage, excess security personnel, and protesters (and, if you will, "con"testers) would be just too much.

BigDawg819
07-23-2007, 08:21 PM
For the Falcons sake they better hope he is involved to a lesser degree, takes a plea bargin for reduced/ little jail time, public image is slightly restored, and he returns.

I hate the thought of not winning for another 3-5 years or more. This team has a ton of potential needs, tons of changes going on on defense and in coaching philosophy, the Mike Vick incident(s), etc etc. If Vick is done with us then we take a QB high next year. That alone probably delays winning for 3 years, because that is usually when a QB finally starts to hit his prime.

Even worse is if a QB fails. You waste 3 years trying to develope him, fire the coach you employed after you fired the last one, draft another QB and hire another coach hoping for success. Detroit Lions for example (Steve Mariucci and Joey Harrington, fails and trys again with Rod Merinelli, stop-gap Jon Kitna and young and seemingly promising Drew Stanton).

On the other hand you have Vick, who while not amazing is above average and has potential when paired with a 'QB mastermind' in Petrino. You have no hole at the most important position, and with your top 5 pick the year without Vick you add some pieces to the puzzle (Jake Long/ Darren McFadden/ DeSean Jackson/ Sam Baker/ Barry Richardson/ Calais Campbell/ Kenny Phillips, etc.). I want to win.

I'm not going to express outrage over the fact that you want to overlook these off the field transgressions, I'm merely going to suggest that its best to not have high hopes for this year for the Falcons.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-23-2007, 08:22 PM
Yup. I really have no problem with this. If he said this for the season I would, but not now.

TheChampIsHere
07-23-2007, 08:24 PM
sad news for us Vick supporters but maybe the best thing considering the distraction he would be

BamaFalcon59
07-23-2007, 08:30 PM
I'm not going to express outrage over the fact that you want to overlook these off the field transgressions, I'm merely going to suggest that its best to not have high hopes for this year for the Falcons.

Oh, no doubt. I have little to no expectation for this year. Hence the reason I said if Vick comes back we will have a top 5 pick to join him. I expect a 3-13 to 4-12 season.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-23-2007, 08:44 PM
I saw a post on another board that made some sense, not sure if it's true or not, but whatever.


By suspending Vick from the camp, doesn't that free Vick from team punishment? If he were to miss Falcons camp, wouldn't the team have to punish him in someway for not making a camp, that I'm sure would be mandatory in his contract.

BigDawg819
07-23-2007, 08:56 PM
I saw a post on another board that made some sense, not sure if it's true or not, but whatever.


By suspending Vick from the camp, doesn't that free Vick from team punishment? If he were to miss Falcons camp, wouldn't the team have to punish him in someway for not making a camp, that I'm sure would be mandatory in his contract.

I'm pretty sure the league's ruling takes precedent in this matter.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-23-2007, 09:03 PM
I'm pretty sure the league's ruling takes precedent in this matter.



I know, but if he missed camp, wouldn't the Falcons suspend him for the camp, and fine him for not making it when it's in his contract? So basically he would have not been in the camp no matter what, but this saves him from fines and PETA harassment, is what I'm getting at.

Dam8610
07-23-2007, 09:07 PM
Roger Goodell's name has been spoken/seen in print FAR too much this offseason.

Goodell on Vick:
http://rebelrockrunners.org/gallery/d/15309-2/ban_him.jpg

JagHombre22
07-23-2007, 10:21 PM
it is not goodell's fault that he took over the NFL admist it's worsts cases of players being criminal...these guys are grown ass men and deserve whatever is coming to them...PacMan right on down to Vick...

by the way, someone a few posts up said something about Vick taking a plea bargin for reduced time...that **** doesn't happen in Fed cases...they are out for blood and knowing how big of icon Vick is...doesn't make it any better...

Dam8610
07-23-2007, 10:28 PM
it is not goodell's fault that he took over the NFL admist it's worsts cases of players being criminal...these guys are grown ass men and deserve whatever is coming to them...PacMan right on down to Vick...

What has either been convicted of? If they've been convicted of something, wouldn't they have their respective sentences to serve? Wouldn't that be their punishment?

BigDawg819
07-23-2007, 10:28 PM
it is not goodell's fault that he took over the NFL admist it's worsts cases of players being criminal...these guys are grown ass men and deserve whatever is coming to them...PacMan right on down to Vick...

by the way, someone a few posts up said something about Vick taking a plea bargin for reduced time...that **** doesn't happen in Fed cases...they are out for blood and knowing how big of icon Vick is...doesn't make it any better...

I think LT's drug problems along with the trails and tribulations of the 90's Cowboys were bad situations that may have dwarfed these incidents.

yourfavestoner
07-24-2007, 01:21 AM
I think LT's drug problems along with the trails and tribulations of the 90's Cowboys were bad situations that may have dwarfed these incidents.

Exactly. If you were to look up the statistics, I'm sure that players aren't getting in trouble at a higher rate than they were in the 80s or 90s. It's just that we live in an age of sensationalism, where the media is super focused on player arrests because that's what people love to hear about.

TheChampIsHere
07-24-2007, 01:58 AM
Exactly. If you were to look up the statistics, I'm sure that players aren't getting in trouble at a higher rate than they were in the 80s or 90s. It's just that we live in an age of sensationalism, where the media is super focused on player arrests because that's what people love to hear about.

couldnt agree more

Moses
07-24-2007, 07:35 AM
it is not goodell's fault that he took over the NFL admist it's worsts cases of players being criminal...these guys are grown ass men and deserve whatever is coming to them...PacMan right on down to Vick...

by the way, someone a few posts up said something about Vick taking a plea bargin for reduced time...that **** doesn't happen in Fed cases...they are out for blood and knowing how big of icon Vick is...doesn't make it any better...

So Vick deserves to be punished even if he is innocent? That's really innovative thinking.

The Feds would be crazy to not look into a plea bargain. Vick has the best lawyers money can buy and has the ability to beat this charge. Prosecutors are almost always willing to give some sort of plea bargain because it saves time, resources, and eliminates the chance of the defendant beating the charge.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 08:30 AM
Exactly. If you were to look up the statistics, I'm sure that players aren't getting in trouble at a higher rate than they were in the 80s or 90s. It's just that we live in an age of sensationalism, where the media is super focused on player arrests because that's what people love to hear about.

I couldn't agree more with this point.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 08:32 AM
I think the Commish is doing everytjhing he should be doing in this case. He is taking a measured approach to this matter, and he's neither bowing to outside interests nor ignoring the situation. The NFL is doing its own investigation and will make a conclusion based on independent analysis. I certainly agree with this stance. In the meantime, it's best for the NFL and the Falcons to avoid this type of distraction as best possible for the time being. It will certainly affect them, but not as much as if Vick were in camp.

eacantdraft
07-24-2007, 09:41 AM
Good move on Goodnell's part. It allows the Falcons and the NFL to go ahead with things while minimumizing the Vick circus.

Reports were out the the NFL was trying to pursuade the Vickster to take a leave of abscence. Evidently the Vickster didn't get the hint. The league was forced to do this.

And as for Vick hiring high priced lawyers to help him get off. He is at one disadvantage compared to other criminal defendents. The federal proscecutors have unlimited funds. They are not going to plea bargain unless the Vickster talks. They wanted to send a message about dog fighting., and the Vickster is the unofficial messenger.

Moses
07-24-2007, 09:44 AM
Good move on Goodnell's part. It allows the Falcons and the NFL to go ahead with things while minimumizing the Vick circus.

Reports were out the the NFL was trying to pursuade the Vickster to take a leave of abscence. Evidently the Vickster didn't get the hint. The league was forced to do this.

And as for Vick hiring high priced lawyers to help him get off. He is at one disadvantage compared to other criminal defendents. The federal proscecutors have unlimited funds. They are not going to plea bargain unless the Vickster talks. They wanted to send a message about dog fighting., and the Vickster is the unofficial messenger.

That is laughable.

bored of education
07-24-2007, 09:47 AM
Vick is dead to me

eacantdraft
07-24-2007, 09:53 AM
That is laughable.


And how is this laughable? The feds can easily outspend the Vickster with no problem. It's the Vickster who has limited funds. Once again we have a Canookian who knows nothing about the American justice system, but think he does.

Moses
07-24-2007, 10:04 AM
And how is this laughable? The feds can easily outspend the Vickster with no problem. It's the Vickster who has limited funds. Once again we have a Canookian who knows nothing about the American justice system, but think he does.

So you believe that federal prosecutors are going to be better than Vick's all-star defence team?

eacantdraft
07-24-2007, 10:08 AM
So you believe that federal prosecutors are going to be better than Vick's all-star defence team?


The federal proscecutors were better than the Enron guys. They are better than Conrad Black's. And all these parties had tons of more money than the Vickster.

Moses
07-24-2007, 10:13 AM
The federal proscecutors were better than the Enron guys. They are better than Conrad Black's. And all these parties had tons of more money than the Vickster.

Huh? Just because they won the case does not mean they were better. Federal prosecutors maybe make $100,000 or more at the high end. Top private lawyers are making million upon millions a year. Where do you think the best lawyers go?

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 10:21 AM
Huh? Just because they won the case does not mean they were better. Federal prosecutors maybe make $100,000 or more at the high end. Top private lawyers are making million upon millions a year. Where do you think the best lawyers go?

Just because the federal prosecutors make less money, it doesn't mean they have less resources at their command. I would imagine that the federal prosecutors have enough resources to win this case. Vick probably has about $15mm to spend without bankrupting himself. With the way private firm lawyers bill, he could blow through that.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 10:22 AM
I think ea has a point. I think his motives are very vindictive, but he's probably right in this case.

Moses
07-24-2007, 10:26 AM
Just because the federal prosecutors make less money, it doesn't mean they have less resources at their command. I would imagine that the federal prosecutors have enough resources to win this case. Vick probably has about $15mm to spend without bankrupting himself. With the way private firm lawyers bill, he could blow through that.

I'm not saying they don't have the resources to win this case. I'm saying that Vick's lawyers are better. Why would top lawyers become federal prosecutors when they could operate their own law firm, make more money, deal with less bureaucracy, and choose what cases they want to do? Vick's lawyers are going to be superior to anything the Feds can put together. Does that mean he'll win the case? Of course not, but it sure won't be his lawyers' fault if he does.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 10:30 AM
There is no proof that Vick's lawyers are necessarily better. Federal prosecutors go into this line of work to get cases like these. What's more, they have a ton on the line with this case. Pretty much all of them will get a huge partner position at a private firm if they get a conviction. They will also get book deals and such. Those with political aspirations will have a huge boost to that end of their careers. Federal prosecutors are probably just as bright and just as motivated about this case as any defense team.

Moses
07-24-2007, 10:33 AM
There is no proof that Vick's lawyers are necessarily better. Federal prosecutors go into this line of work to get cases like these. What's more, they have a ton on the line with this case. Pretty much all of them will get a huge partner position at a private firm if they get a conviction. They will also get book deals and such. Those with political aspirations will have a huge boost to that end of their careers. Federal prosecutors are probably just as bright and just as motivated about this case as any defense team.

So you're agreeing they are less experienced lawyers that are trying to get into major private law firms? Then, there's Vick lawyers who are the best lawyers on Earth with endless experience as trial lawyers. You're kidding yourself if you think Vick's legal team isn't clearly better than anything the Feds can put together.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 10:36 AM
I'm not sure what you guys know about the 1980's financial markets, but there was a firm named Drexel Burnham Lambert that was a huge player in the financial markets. They had a head trader named Michael Milken, who built a financial network based on junk bonds. He used his influence in the markets to manipulate corporations into huge mergers and acquisitions. In one year, Milken brought in $10bb in fees to his company, and he was paid a salary + bonus of $750mm. He had pretty much total control of the financial markets. Much of what he was doing was illegal. He was handing out inside information to professional traders to force companies into selling. He was influencing people to take financial risks that were not in the best interests of shareholders. He was making side deals with companies he was selling and keeping proceeds for himself. He was running a racket.

After a 5+ year investigation, the NY Federal Prosecutor's office built a case with the SEC and filed charges against the firm and Milken for his activities. Milken, worth about $5bb or more, fought this entire matter tooth and nail. He hired the top PR people to help him, he had 3 or 4 private firms. He had pretty much unlimited resources. In the end, he crumbled, and the prosecutors secured a $500mm fine and a plea bargain, where he served about 5 years in jail and lost his trading license.

This was a bigger deal than the Vick case, and it was fought under much larger stakes by bigger players. The federal prosecutors won.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 10:39 AM
So you're agreeing they are less experienced lawyers that are trying to get into major private law firms? Then, there's Vick lawyers who are the best lawyers on Earth with endless experience as trial lawyers. You're kidding yourself if you think Vick's legal team isn't clearly better than anything the Feds can put together.

I'm not certain about the experience level in this case. There are plenty of veterans on both sides, and I'm certain that all parties involved are tops in their field. If you tried 100 random cases between these 2 sides, I would imagine that the defense would win about 55% of the time.

The "problem" here is that the feds have a legit case and were able to secure an indictment. They are in a favorable jurisdiction. They have public opinion and "morality" on their side. They have witnesses and probably other evidence as well. They also have a big target and a big name to put with a specific series of crimes. I like the federal prosecutors with these advantages.

Moses
07-24-2007, 10:41 AM
I'm not certain about the experience level in this case. There are plenty of veterans on both sides, and I'm certain that all parties involved are tops in their field. If you tried 100 random cases between these 2 sides, I would imagine that the defense would win about 55% of the time.

The "problem" here is that the feds have a legit case and were able to secure an indictment. They are in a favorable jurisdiction. They have public opinion and "morality" on their side. They have witnesses and probably other evidence as well. They also have a big target and a big name to put with a specific series of crimes. I like the federal prosecutors with these advantages.

Where have I argued that Vick will win this case?

Why are you bringing up cases in which the Feds have won?

Those are irrelevant when talking about the skill level of the lawyers.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 10:45 AM
Where have I argued that Vick will win this case?

Why are you bringing up cases in which the Feds have won?

Those are irrelevant when talking about the skill level of the lawyers.

You haven't specifically argued that he'd win, but you seem to be leaning that way. I'm trying to head you off at the pass. There are plenty of top lawyers that choose careers in public service. Federal prosecution is a very dignified profession.

I'm bringing up cases that the Feds have won because it is relevant. Federal prosecutors have an insanely high success rate in their indictments and at trial. It is a testament to their resources, their skill, and their efforts to secure indictments and sift through the evidence to determine the facts.

CC.SD
07-24-2007, 10:48 AM
Huh? Just because they won the case does not mean they were better.

I would say that it pretty much does.

Moses
07-24-2007, 10:50 AM
You haven't specifically argued that he'd win, but you seem to be leaning that way. I'm trying to head you off at the pass. There are plenty of top lawyers that choose careers in public service. Federal prosecution is a very dignified profession.

I'm bringing up cases that the Feds have won because it is relevant. Federal prosecutors have an insanely high success rate in their indictments and at trial. It is a testament to their resources, their skill, and their efforts to secure indictments and sift through the evidence to determine the facts.

Don't put words into my mouth. I'm not arguing that Vick will win or lose his case. I'm arguing that his legal team is superior to the Feds' legal team.

The verdict of cases is irrelevant in determining lawyer skill. Yes, federal indictments have a high conviction rate. So what? Take Ray Lewis' case. Statistically, that is counted as a conviction for the Feds. What lawyers did better in that case? Some of these guys plea bargain down to next to nothing but it still counts as a conviction. If the prosecutors have a case that is gift-wrapped but they plea bargain and only get a quarter of the sentence they could, they are still rewarded with a conviction.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 10:51 AM
Defense lawyers are highly paid and are excellent at what they do. The more you pay, the more experience you get and likely the higher success rate you will enjoy. Vick has hired an excellent lead counsel. He stands a chance to win this case if the evidence and testimoney do not strongly implicate him in this case.

Moses
07-24-2007, 10:51 AM
I would say that it pretty much does.

Right, because legal proceedings are entirely determined by the skill level of the lawyers.

Not, you know...evidence...

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 10:53 AM
Don't put words into my mouth. I'm not arguing that Vick will win or lose his case. I'm arguing that his legal team is superior to the Feds' legal team.

The verdict of cases is irrelevant in determining lawyer skill. Yes, federal indictments have a high conviction rate. So what? Take Ray Lewis' case. Statistically, that is counted as a conviction for the Feds. What lawyers did better in that case? Some of these guys plea bargain down to next to nothing but it still counts as a conviction. If the prosecutors have a case that is gift-wrapped but they plea bargain and only get a quarter of the sentence they could, they are still rewarded with a conviction.

I cannot speak to the superior nature of the legal team because I am not an expert. I'm not going to go there and explicitly say anything about the skill of lawyers because it would be unfair for me to do so.

This is a case that I don't see Vick plea-bargaining. He's fighting for his name, endorsements, and livelihood, and he's going to push it as far as he can. If he's guilty, he's probably better off pleaing now. I'm not certain that he can win at trial, regardless of how strong his legal team is.

Moses
07-24-2007, 10:59 AM
I cannot speak to the superior nature of the legal team because I am not an expert. I'm not going to go there and explicitly say anything about the skill of lawyers because it would be unfair for me to do so.

This is a case that I don't see Vick plea-bargaining. He's fighting for his name, endorsements, and livelihood, and he's going to push it as far as he can. If he's guilty, he's probably better off pleaing now. I'm not certain that he can win at trial, regardless of how strong his legal team is.

Kind of odd that you would say you don't have the expertise to comment on his legal team but you would comment on whether he would win or lose this case (a much harder thing to predict).

Anyway, you can bet that if the evidence is as strong as people suggest, Billy Martin will be looking to plea bargain. It's suicide to ignore that route even if there's only a slim chance you're convicted. 6 years is a long time to spend in jail and you can bet that Billy Martin is going to immediately look for a way to reduce that sentence.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 11:03 AM
Kind of odd that you would say you don't have the expertise to comment on his legal team but you would comment on whether he would win or lose this case (a much harder thing to predict).

Anyway, you can bet that if the evidence is as strong as people suggest, Billy Martin will be looking to plea bargain. It's suicide to ignore that route even if there's only a slim chance you're convicted. 6 years is a long time to spend in jail and you can bet that Billy Martin is going to immediately look for a way to reduce that sentence.

There is limited quantitative or qualitative evidence to suggest whether individual defense lawyers are better or worse than public prosecutors. The evidence is available to all sides (fully disclosed). There is an old quote that says, "The jury meets in that little room to decide which side had a better lawyer that day." So, looking at available statistics on conviction rates, plus the media circus and interest groups, and I have to say that unless the prosecutors were sorely mistaken and improper in their actions, Vick will either plea bargain or be convicted. He will do jail time and pay a hefty fine. He will lose his endorsements and will be cut by the Falcons.

I will say that your point about the "conviction rate" has a lot of merit. I'm trying to keep things as specific to this case as possible.

Moses
07-24-2007, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=bsaza2358;528165]There is limited quantitative or qualitative evidence to suggest whether individual defense lawyers are better or worse than public prosecutors.[QUOTE]

This is just common sense. Where do the best people in any profession go? To the best jobs. Most lawyers see working in or owning a private firm as the best job. They make more money, have more freedom, and can choose exactly what they want to do. Sure, the odd top lawyer will choose to become a federal prosecutor but they would be few and far between. Also, federal prosecutors are appointed so you can bet that a lot are juiced in more on political clout than skill-level.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 11:16 AM
See, you're projecting your own motives a little too strongly. Most people are motivated by financial compensation. Most people see private legal work as the best kind of job. That is not all. The best defense that money can buy will guarantee you high bills and experienced legal professionals. That doesn't mean they're definitely the best. That is the crux of my argument.

Also, I was just talking with 2 friends who are associates at private firms. One of them works for a partner who was a federal prosecutor first. He tells me that federal prosecution work is a fantastic career builder, perhaps stronger than just a life in private firms. You don't get paid a lot early on, but when you finish your tenure, you move directly into partnership at top firms. There are a lot of different ways to get to the top of the legal world.

Moses
07-24-2007, 11:18 AM
See, you're projecting your own motives a little too strongly. Most people are motivated by financial compensation. Most people see private legal work as the best kind of job. That is not all. The best defense that money can buy will guarantee you high bills and experienced legal professionals. That doesn't mean they're definitely the best. That is the crux of my argument.

Also, I was just talking with 2 friends who are associates at private firms. One of them works for a partner who was a federal prosecutor first. He tells me that federal prosecution work is a fantastic career builder, perhaps stronger than just a life in private firms. You don't get paid a lot early on, but when you finish your tenure, you move directly into partnership at top firms. There are a lot of different ways to get to the top of the legal world.

Exactly. Federal prosecution is a great starting point for many lawyers. However, top private firms are going to have the more experienced, talented, and overall better lawyers.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 11:23 AM
I think we're probably arguing a similar point and basically agree here, so I'm going to stop. I will say that perhaps the defense team is at a slight disadvantage because of their lack of experience with federal cases. There are very few federal cases out there, so the prosecution receives a lot of experience, while the defense splits the work across the industry.

Moses
07-24-2007, 11:33 AM
I think we're probably arguing a similar point and basically agree here, so I'm going to stop. I will say that perhaps the defense team is at a slight disadvantage because of their lack of experience with federal cases. There are very few federal cases out there, so the prosecution receives a lot of experience, while the defense splits the work across the industry.

Billy Martin alone has been in several high-profile cases including Monica Lewinsky, Jayson Williams, Allen Iverson, etc...

Federal prosecutors don't generally stick around very long because they are appointed and are just using the position as a stepping stone.

LonghornsLegend
07-24-2007, 11:52 AM
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/sports.aol.com/fanhouse/media/2007/07/billymartinjaysonwilliams.jpg

He's represented Jayson Williams (NBA), Bill Campbell (Atlanta Mayor), Monica and Lewinsky (White House Intern) among others. Very successful and proven trial lawyer from what I've read. Should be interesting to see who else he adds to the team.

im really curious as to how much these lawyers end up making for one high profile case like the ones named, or Vick's...

six figures? gotta be sky high

princefielder28
07-24-2007, 11:57 AM
im really curious as to how much these lawyers end up making for one high profile case like the ones named, or Vick's...

six figures? gotta be sky high

It's atleast six figures. When you're fighting for someone's innocence, especially people with alot of money, you get paid a nice amount to try and keep them out of prison.

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 12:01 PM
These top lawyers are billing their own time at at least $500 an hour per partner hour. Senior Associate hours are billed at between $250-300 an hour, junior associates up to $200 an hour, and paralegal hours are about $100. In most cases, the associates and support staff are paid a salary, so you get plenty of profit margin out of them. Partners are sometimes on salary as well. The firm could book hundreds of thousands in profits from a single case that goes to trial.

Moses
07-24-2007, 12:30 PM
im really curious as to how much these lawyers end up making for one high profile case like the ones named, or Vick's...

six figures? gotta be sky high

Six figures EASILY. I'm not sure on specifics, but I would not be surprised if Billy Martin is adding at least 7 figures to his bankroll.

V. Young
07-24-2007, 12:43 PM
I'm willing to bet that he's already played his last down in his NFL Career. What he's doing is best for the game. I'm happy to see that he has the respect to do this. Props to him for that.

ATL should go after Culpepper... if he's still out there...

Hes not making that decision man, goodell is ordering him too.

bored of education
07-24-2007, 12:52 PM
IS the NFL a coporation, maybe even each team is seen as a corporation.

Fire him.


If this happened with me and my company, I'd lose licensing and be blacked balled across the board, have no references etcs.

F-- Due PROCESS!

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 01:25 PM
There are many forces at work here. First of all, cutting Vick would cost the Falcons $21mm in cap space over the next 2 seasons, and they'd get no compensation for the loss of a dynamic playmaker. If they keep him on the roster for this season, the cap hit in 2008 is much less. Under the existing conduct policy, the NFL will need a lot of evidence to back themselves up against an almost guaranteed union appeal. They need to do their due dilligence before acting rashly. Finally, if Vick goes out and gets a not-guilty verdict, the NFL and the Falcons look like a bunch of dicks.

Moses
07-24-2007, 01:30 PM
There are many forces at work here. First of all, cutting Vick would cost the Falcons $21mm in cap space over the next 2 seasons, and they'd get no compensation for the loss of a dynamic playmaker. If they keep him on the roster for this season, the cap hit in 2008 is much less. Under the existing conduct policy, the NFL will need a lot of evidence to back themselves up against an almost guaranteed union appeal. They need to do their due dilligence before acting rashly. Finally, if Vick goes out and gets a not-guilty verdict, the NFL and the Falcons look like a bunch of dicks.

Not to mention the huge lawsuit that would ensue...

Vick could sue for lost wages, lost sponsors, public embarassment, etc. etc.

Shiver
07-24-2007, 01:58 PM
News on the Vick front:

Commissioner Goodell informed Vick that the review would be completed as soon as possible and that Vick’s full cooperation is expected.

That means if Vick doesn't cooperate, Goodell will suspend him. It's highly unlikely Vick would testify to the commissioner. If he does so, what he says would be used against him in court. That will give Goodell the autonomy to banish Vick for the season. Vick has the right to not testify in court; however, that won't apply when the league asks for his knowledge of the situation.

Another facet of this is if Vick is suspended by the league, the Falcons can make a play to get their signing bonus money back. That's the main reason he's still on the team. If they can get the money back, they can cut him without hesitation.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
07-24-2007, 02:19 PM
This and the NBA ref scandal could do a lot of damage to this nation's sports.

Steroids in baseball.. dogfighting in football... crooked refs in basketball... nascar being nascar...

It is time for hockey to make it's valiant return.

Shiver
07-24-2007, 02:24 PM
Steroids in baseball.. dogfighting in football... crooked refs in basketball... nascar being nascar...

It is time for hockey to make it's valiant return.

More like Beckham brings the World's sport to the U.S.


(I hope not)

JagHombre22
07-24-2007, 02:54 PM
Not to mention the huge lawsuit that would ensue...

Vick could sue for lost wages, lost sponsors, public embarassment, etc. etc.

how could vick sue for public embarrassment...he put himself at those dogfights, he was the one whose property it was on...come on people, get past looking at Mike Vick as an icon and think about if it was (hypothetically) your dog who was killed in these fights, you'd want the person ultimately responsible to be held accountable...right? that's what mike vick is...accountable...he's going to go to jail and he's not going to play for the falcons...their fans are living in a dream world...federal cases have a 97.6 conviction rate...you really think that the feds piled a case against vick that wasn't airtight...knowing how big of a star and icon he is...think people!

I heard visiting hours in federal prisons are from 12-2pm...

bsaza2358
07-24-2007, 02:57 PM
If Vick is found not guilty, he could sue for what is tantamount to slander/libel/defamation of character to recoup his lost wages and endorsements.

Moses
07-24-2007, 02:57 PM
how could vick sue for public embarrassment...he put himself at those dogfights, he was the one whose property it was on...come on people, get past looking at Mike Vick as an icon and think about if it was (hypothetically) your dog who was killed in these fights, you'd want the person ultimately responsible to be held accountable...right? that's what mike vick is...accountable...he's going to go to jail and he's not going to play for the falcons...their fans are living in a dream world...federal cases have a 97.6 conviction rate...you really think that the feds piled a case against vick that wasn't airtight...knowing how big of a star and icon he is...think people!

I heard visiting hours in federal prisons are from 12-2pm...

He might as well start serving his sentence now. Screw the justice system. Screw looking at evidence. We should just base decisions like this based on what we read in the media. After all, they've never been wrong on anything.

Shiver
07-24-2007, 03:01 PM
I thought this was hilarious:

http://www.profootballtalk.com/UsualSuspects.jpg

TheChampIsHere
07-24-2007, 03:15 PM
how could vick sue for public embarrassment...he put himself at those dogfights, he was the one whose property it was on...come on people, get past looking at Mike Vick as an icon and think about if it was (hypothetically) your dog who was killed in these fights, you'd want the person ultimately responsible to be held accountable...right? that's what mike vick is...accountable...he's going to go to jail and he's not going to play for the falcons...their fans are living in a dream world...federal cases have a 97.6 conviction rate...you really think that the feds piled a case against vick that wasn't airtight...knowing how big of a star and icon he is...think people!

I heard visiting hours in federal prisons are from 12-2pm...

I dont think Mike Vick kills other peoples dogs here, any dogs that were killed were raised by dogfighters its not like some random peoples housepets were killed in these dogfights here and the owners of those dogs want Vick punished for it, which is what youre making it sound like.

As far as what will happen, who knows, us fans dont have all the facts. I think its best we just wait and see rather than jump to conclusions.

D-Unit
07-24-2007, 03:26 PM
What Goddell has done is "SET THE PRECEDENCE".

I love the NFL under his reign. Stars are not exceptions to the rules and he'll make up new rules for new circumstances to keep the league away from harm.

Geo
07-24-2007, 03:37 PM
Something to keep in mind, especially with regards potential repercussion from Goodell and the league office, is the illegal gambling aspect of this indictment. That's not an area you want to cross with the league offices imo.

ks_perfection
07-24-2007, 08:03 PM
If Vick is found not guilty, he could sue for what is tantamount to slander/libel/defamation of character to recoup his lost wages and endorsements.

Sue Who? The government had enough evidence to get by the grand jury so its not like its baseless. Only if it was way out of line could he sue, just losing doesn't cut it. Can't sue the media as they are just reporting what the government is saying. The NFL is just going to suspend him, nothing more and there doing it because of what embarrasing menat already occured.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-24-2007, 08:32 PM
Sue Who? The government had enough evidence to get by the grand jury so its not like its baseless. Only if it was way out of line could he sue, just losing doesn't cut it. Can't sue the media as they are just reporting what the government is saying. The NFL is just going to suspend him, nothing more and there doing it because of what embarrasing menat already occured.


He was talking if the NFL suspended him and he was found innocent.

D-Unit
07-24-2007, 09:17 PM
He was talking if the NFL suspended him and he was found innocent.
Vick innocent??? It's more likely that Lindsey Blowhan goes clean.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070724/070724_lohanmug_vlrg_8a.widec.jpg

JagHombre22
07-25-2007, 04:21 AM
He was talking if the NFL suspended him and he was found innocent.

the nfl has the right to suspend any player they believe has broken one of their policies...and clearly mike vick's actions over the past however many months have been detrimental to the team...which is a basis for suspension...also, someone mentioned it previously, illegal dogfighting is also a form of gambling which in today's modern era of sports is a HUGE no-no...I love everyone who owns a Vick jersey seems to be dismissing the fact that Mike Vick whether or not he personally killed any dogs was the ringleader of this whole thing...just because he makes close to a 100 million dollars does not make him above the law...

ATLDirtyBirds
07-25-2007, 06:23 AM
the nfl has the right to suspend any player they believe has broken one of their policies...and clearly mike vick's actions over the past however many months have been detrimental to the team...which is a basis for suspension...also, someone mentioned it previously, illegal dogfighting is also a form of gambling which in today's modern era of sports is a HUGE no-no...I love everyone who owns a Vick jersey seems to be dismissing the fact that Mike Vick whether or not he personally killed any dogs was the ringleader of this whole thing...just because he makes close to a 100 million dollars does not make him above the law...



A first time offender who gets suspended before he is found guilty in a court of law? Then he is found innocent, and he has lost all of his sponsers, and been destroyed by the media. The NFL would be sued beyond belief. Vick's lawyers would have an absoulute field day as they take MILLIONS from the NFL.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-25-2007, 06:25 AM
Vick innocent??? It's more likely that Lindsey Blowhan goes clean.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070724/070724_lohanmug_vlrg_8a.widec.jpg


I honestly have no idea how you can say for sure Vick is guilty without even hearing, or seeing what the defense has to offer.

BlindSite
07-25-2007, 06:36 AM
A first time offender who gets suspended before he is found guilty in a court of law? Then he is found innocent, and he has lost all of his sponsers, and been destroyed by the media. The NFL would be sued beyond belief. Vick's lawyers would have an absoulute field day as they take MILLIONS from the NFL.

Why? They didn't terminate his employment, just suspended him from active duty, which under the law, both statutory and common, is perfectly fine ;)

Vick's lawyers won't have a leg to stand on.

http://storage9.myopera.com/Eddie_Lopez/blog/The_More_You_Know.jpg

Moses
07-25-2007, 07:45 AM
Why? They didn't terminate his employment, just suspended him from active duty, which under the law, both statutory and common, is perfectly fine ;)

Vick's lawyers won't have a leg to stand on.

http://storage9.myopera.com/Eddie_Lopez/blog/The_More_You_Know.jpg

???

You cannot suspend somebody without pay unless you have just cause, just like you can't terminate their employment without just cause.

BlindSite
07-25-2007, 04:02 PM
Just cause in this case is a federal indictment. Besides which, the NFL isn't necessarily suspending him, since he hasn't been suspended for any games. He's only been asked not to attend training camp.

That's like someone saying to you, don't come into the office, work from home till this mess is sorted....

Ewing
07-26-2007, 03:27 PM
Don't let the door hit your dog fighting, herpes giving, jewelry smuggling, game blowing ass on the way out Michael. I don't want to hear any bullcrap about how he is innocent. Enough is enough. He gets into trouble every ****ing year and nothing comes of it. Go look at the footage and pictures of dog fighting and tell me he doesn't deserve to go to prison.

Shiver
07-26-2007, 04:17 PM
Don't let the door hit your dog fighting, herpes giving, jewelry smuggling, game blowing ass on the way out Michael. I don't want to hear any bullcrap about how he is innocent. Enough is enough. He gets into trouble every ****ing year and nothing comes of it. Go look at the footage and pictures of dog fighting and tell me he doesn't deserve to go to prison.

That's one of the more ignorant statements I have ever seen. Unless you are in possession of exclusive footage of Michael Vick actually fighting dogs. Since when are we living in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany or Saddam's Iraq? Where mere conjecture leads to imprisonment.

BlindSite
07-26-2007, 04:21 PM
There were 4 corroborating witnesses that are featured i the indictment, how many do you want.

Source for the above, SI.com

Shiver
07-26-2007, 05:29 PM
All I want is a jury to convict him. The odds are he will be.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-26-2007, 05:39 PM
All I want is a jury to convict him. The odds are he will be.


I would have to think the Feds have some, but a money trail, or some kind of evidence would be nice. I wouldn't put a helluva lot of stock in 4 of Vick's thug friends.

bsaza2358
07-26-2007, 05:46 PM
Really, are 4 friends of an athlete with minimal credibility really going to help convict that same athlete of a federal crime? I would hope the feds have something tangible.

SubNoize
07-26-2007, 05:46 PM
???

You cannot suspend somebody without pay unless you have just cause, just like you can't terminate their employment without just cause.

police officers get suspended all the time before they are proven innocent or guilty, this would be no different. obviously vick has been indicted so he's being accused of wrong doing, and they are simply asking him not to come into work without everything being sorted out first, same as police officers. i don't think it's a big deal and wouldn't be offended if he was booted for the year without being charged, this is bad for the league no matter what the outcome.

D-Unit
07-26-2007, 05:47 PM
"Falcons owner Arthur Blank said the team wanted to suspend Vick for four games, the maximum penalty a team can assess a player, but the NFL asked him to wait. Instead, Blank has told his embattled player to focus on his legal problems, not football."

Blank sure is pissed off. The NFL is handling this correctly so far.

Vickissick07
07-26-2007, 05:51 PM
police officers get suspended all the time before they are proven innocent or guilty, this would be no different. obviously vick has been indicted so he's being accused of wrong doing, and they are simply asking him not to come into work without everything being sorted out first, same as police officers. i don't think it's a big deal and wouldn't be offended if he was booted for the year without being charged, this is bad for the league no matter what the outcome.

I must LOL @ that analogy. Police officers perform a service in the public in which their actions or lack thereof can endanger lives and/or cause harm to others. Vick's job is to play a game. There is very little in common with what you are trying to say.

SubNoize
07-26-2007, 05:57 PM
I must LOL @ that analogy. Police officers perform a service in the public in which their actions or lack thereof can endanger lives and/or cause harm to others. Vick's job is to play a game. There is very little in common with what you are trying to say.

yeah because i compared their jobs right? I compared the situations in which somebody can be asked to not come in while an investigation was pending. also while not causing physical harm, vicks actions could do harm to the falcons orginization and players in a mental aspect. i also doubt you did "lol", which is by far the most womanly expression one could possibly use.

Vickissick07
07-26-2007, 06:03 PM
yeah because i compared their jobs right? I compared the situations in which somebody can be asked to not come in while an investigation was pending. also while not causing physical harm, vicks actions could do harm to the falcons orginization and players in a mental aspect. i also doubt you did "lol", which is by far the most womanly expression one could possibly use.

Comparing their jobs is something you must do to compare the punishment. I'm sorry that is difficult for you to comprehend.

Moses
07-26-2007, 06:06 PM
I love when people just come in and make an ignorant post and leave.

"OMG Vick fights dogzz they get treated so bad put him in jail for life no trial kicked out of league now!! 4 ppl said he did it111!!!"

KTHXBAI.

SubNoize
07-26-2007, 06:11 PM
Comparing their jobs is something you must do to compare the punishment. I'm sorry that is difficult for you to comprehend.

oh yes, comparison is much too difficult for me to comprehend, thank you for coming along and pointing that out. it's a fair asessment to say that the situations are similar in the fact that an employee has done something that warrants investigation, and are asked to step aside until the outcome is 100% clear. their duties have no bearing on the comparison of suspected wrong doing and suspension for just the possibility of it happening. i'm sorry that you can't comprehend that. i'm in no way saying the nfl should folow the same scale of punishment for officers, just comparing the way that both fields can issue suspension or paid absence pending further investigation.

Vickissick07
07-26-2007, 06:11 PM
I love when people just come in and make an ignorant post and leave.

"OMG Vick fights dogzz they get treated so bad put him in jail for life no trial kicked out of league now!! 4 ppl said he did it111!!!"

KTHXBAI.

Considering they haven't even heard the defenses story I find it rather funny as well. Think about how many of todays stars would be in jail everytime the public rushed to judgement because the media controls them.

Vickissick07
07-26-2007, 06:12 PM
oh yes, comparison is much too difficult for me to comprehend, thank you for coming along and pointing that out. it's a fair asessment to say that the situations are similar in the fact that an employee has done something that warrants investigation, and are asked to step aside until the outcome is 100% clear. their duties have no bearing on the comparison of suspected wrong doing and suspension for just the possibility of it happening. i'm sorry that you can't comprehend that. i'm in no way saying the nfl should folow the same scale of punishment for officers, just comparing the way that both fields can issue suspension or paid absence pending further investigation.

Ok fair enough. I just think the police officer analogy is completely off base.

D-Unit
07-26-2007, 06:12 PM
Wow. Vick is not getting any breaks. More charges are to be added. ...and the trial is set for November. Usually, these things take a year or more. 3 months is all Vick is getting before his trial. Wow. I almost feel sorry for him. ...but he brought this upon himself.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-26-2007, 06:23 PM
Wow. Vick is not getting any breaks. More charges are to be added. ...and the trial is set for November. Usually, these things take a year or more. 3 months is all Vick is getting before his trial. Wow. I almost feel sorry for him. ...but he brought this upon himself.


Where did you hear this? And what else is being added?

SubNoize
07-26-2007, 06:29 PM
nothing added yet but could be added... the court date is actually surprising though, doesn't leave a huge amount of time for the defense.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2950226

Moses
07-26-2007, 06:35 PM
nothing added yet but could be added... the court date is actually surprising though, doesn't leave a huge amount of time for the defense.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2950226

This court is known for it's speed. Also, the judge is known as a very tough sentencer.

D-Unit
07-26-2007, 06:39 PM
Where did you hear this? And what else is being added?
ESPN.


The extra charges are related to monkey fighting rings. Hhaha... Just kidding there... but I would pay to see that. LMAO.

SubNoize
07-26-2007, 06:51 PM
ESPN.


The extra charges are related to monkey fighting rings. Hhaha... Just kidding there... but I would pay to see that. LMAO.

I would post a picture but it has an F bomb in it, but it's hilarious.

Ewing
07-26-2007, 07:47 PM
That's one of the more ignorant statements I have ever seen. Unless you are in possession of exclusive footage of Michael Vick actually fighting dogs. Since when are we living in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany or Saddam's Iraq? Where mere conjecture leads to imprisonment.

You know what's more ignorant? The constant defense of this child from Atlanta Falcon fans. How much crap does this guy have to do before you realize he's a bad apple. Even if he didn't fight those dogs it was still his property and he should have been monitoring what was going on. Let's just take a look at all the crap he's pulled:

The Ron Mexico Lawsuit: Sure, he never went to court but he settled out of it. In my mind if Vick was innocent he would have gone to court and won. Settling out of court is usually an indication that a guy is guilty.

Flipping Off The Fans: Yeah, there was a heckler but real athletes ignore them. Not only was he stupid enough to react but there were rows of kids all around the guy.

The Water Bottle: Yes, nothing was found but nobody buys a water bottle meant to smuggle jewelry just for fun. He had that for a reason. I'm not buying the "to hide my own jewelry" excuse.

Capitol Hill: Yeah, the AirTrain flight was late leaving for Tampa but he still no showed the second flight. You don't book a date on Capitol Hill and then no show it because you're mad at an airline.

How much more is it going to take for you and every other Falcon fan to wake up and realize that this guy is bad for not only the Falcons but the NFL?

Vickissick07
07-26-2007, 07:58 PM
You know what's more ignorant? The constant defense of this child from Atlanta Falcon fans. How much crap does this guy have to do before you realize he's a bad apple. Even if he didn't fight those dogs it was still his property and he should have been monitoring what was going on. Let's just take a look at all the crap he's pulled:

The Ron Mexico Lawsuit: Sure, he never went to court but he settled out of it. In my mind if Vick was innocent he would have gone to court and won. Settling out of court is usually an indication that a guy is guilty.

Flipping Off The Fans: Yeah, there was a heckler but real athletes ignore them. Not only was he stupid enough to react but there were rows of kids all around the guy.

The Water Bottle: Yes, nothing was found but nobody buys a water bottle meant to smuggle jewelry just for fun. He had that for a reason. I'm not buying the "to hide my own jewelry" excuse.

Capitol Hill: Yeah, the AirTrain flight was late leaving for Tampa but he still no showed the second flight. You don't book a date on Capitol Hill and then no show it because you're mad at an airline.

How much more is it going to take for you and every other Falcon fan to wake up and realize that this guy is bad for not only the Falcons but the NFL?

Those are some of the dumbest paragraphs my eyes have been laid upon. Sure, nobody buys a water bottle to hide jewelry in, especially if that was the sole purpose the bottle was created...

Capitol Hill? You can't even spell capital right so I'm not even gonna touch that one.

Flipping off the fans? No excuse there, bad judgement, shiz happens. Brett Favre made an obscene jesture to another player and there wasn't a big uproar over it.

The Ron Mexico law suit? It isn't illegal to give somebody else a sexually transmitted disease even if it was true. Ever had a fever blister? Congrats, you have herpes.

scar988
07-26-2007, 08:23 PM
Ewing... please don't group me in with some of these guys... I know Vick is guilty here. I know Blank was 2 signatures from cutting him (I have my sources from within the organization who will back me up on this) I also know that Vick will never wear the Falcon red again.

D-Unit
07-26-2007, 08:44 PM
Ewing... please don't group me in with some of these guys... I know Vick is guilty here. I know Blank was 2 signatures from cutting him (I have my sources from within the organization who will back me up on this) I also know that Vick will never wear the Falcon red again.
Leave it to an old skool nfldc poster to know how to look at things objectively.

scar988
07-26-2007, 08:52 PM
Leave it to an old skool nfldc poster to know how to look at things objectively.
more like a true Falcon fan and not a Vick fan like some of these guys.

Moses
07-26-2007, 09:17 PM
Leave it to an old skool nfldc poster to know how to look at things objectively.

That is laughable. I love how looking at something objectively here is saying a guy is guilty before he even has a chance to defend himself.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-26-2007, 09:31 PM
That is laughable. I love how looking at something objectively here is saying a guy is guilty before he even has a chance to defend himself.


Not only that, but all we have right now, is an iditiment issued by the Feds. Of course it looks bad, if it wouldn't look bad, there wouldn't be an inditment.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-26-2007, 09:32 PM
You know what's more ignorant? The constant defense of this child from Atlanta Falcon fans. How much crap does this guy have to do before you realize he's a bad apple. Even if he didn't fight those dogs it was still his property and he should have been monitoring what was going on. Let's just take a look at all the crap he's pulled:

The Ron Mexico Lawsuit: Sure, he never went to court but he settled out of it. In my mind if Vick was innocent he would have gone to court and won. Settling out of court is usually an indication that a guy is guilty.

Flipping Off The Fans: Yeah, there was a heckler but real athletes ignore them. Not only was he stupid enough to react but there were rows of kids all around the guy.

The Water Bottle: Yes, nothing was found but nobody buys a water bottle meant to smuggle jewelry just for fun. He had that for a reason. I'm not buying the "to hide my own jewelry" excuse.

Capitol Hill: Yeah, the AirTrain flight was late leaving for Tampa but he still no showed the second flight. You don't book a date on Capitol Hill and then no show it because you're mad at an airline.

How much more is it going to take for you and every other Falcon fan to wake up and realize that this guy is bad for not only the Falcons but the NFL?



Go hunt down Kobe Bryant. He's a rapist by that logic.

DraftMichaelHuff
07-26-2007, 09:37 PM
I dont know how the trial will go, i just hope the real truth is told. Ideally id like Michael Vick to be proven not guilty of all charges (provided of course he is actually not guilty) not only for the Falcons but as a reward for those who have followed the intention of the Legal system "innocent until proven guilty" and not rushed to judgements. I would hate to be one of the avid "he is 100% guilty even before trial" bandwagon if he is then proven NOT guilty of all charges in the end, especially one who is also a supporter of the Falcons, the very team who, if he is aquitted, myself and presumably both the NFL and the Falcons organisation would have no problem with AND no REAL case agaisnt him returning to play for.

If he is found guilty sure, ill be as disgusted as everyone and he deserves what he gets, but whats the point of a trial if he is already guilty?...there isnt one.Therefore he must be given a chance to prove his innocence. If he is guilty i dont want him being a falcon, if he is innocent i dont see why he shouldnt be allowed to continue his NFL career. As long as there is an element of doubt im not gonna be rushing to a conclusion either way

Moses
07-26-2007, 09:44 PM
I dont know how the trial will go, i just hope the real truth is told. Ideally id like Michael Vick to be proven not guilty of all charges (provided of course he is actually not guilty) not only for the Falcons but as a reward for those who have followed the intention of the Legal system "innocent until proven guilty" and not rushed to judgements. I would hate to be one of the avid "he is 100% guilty even before trial" bandwagon if he is then proven NOT guilty of all charges in the end, especially one who is also a supporter of the Falcons who, if he is aquitted, i would have no problem with him returning to play for.

If he is found guilty sure, ill be as disgusted as everyone and he deserves what he gets, but whats the point of a trial if he is already guilty?...there isnt one.Therefore he must be given a chance to prove his innocence. If he is guilty i dont want him being a falcon, if he is innocent i dont see why he shouldnt be allowed to continue his NFL career. As long as there is an element of doubt im not gonna be rushing to a conclusion either way

This is known as rational thought. Enjoy it, it doesn't frequent Michael Vick threads.

ATLDirtyBirds
07-26-2007, 09:46 PM
This is known as rational thought. Enjoy it, it doesn't frequent Michael Vick threads.


For sure. Welcome to the club.

DraftMichaelHuff
07-26-2007, 09:51 PM
...yeah ive been looking around reading various boards and sifting through the bias crap, without responding for too long, had to finally comment.

Also, I'm Australian, located on the other side of the world and it seems i am able to comprehend the "innocent untill proven guilty" logic better than many of those from the country in which its written for.

Once again though, i reiterate, IF he is guilty he deserves what he gets

Ewing
07-27-2007, 05:05 AM
Those are some of the dumbest paragraphs my eyes have been laid upon. Sure, nobody buys a water bottle to hide jewelry in, especially if that was the sole purpose the bottle was created...

Capitol Hill? You can't even spell capital right so I'm not even gonna touch that one.

Flipping off the fans? No excuse there, bad judgement, shiz happens. Brett Favre made an obscene jesture to another player and there wasn't a big uproar over it.

The Ron Mexico law suit? It isn't illegal to give somebody else a sexually transmitted disease even if it was true. Ever had a fever blister? Congrats, you have herpes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill,_Washington,_DC

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's an "o" not an "a'.

You know what it wasn't made a big deal of? Because Favre made a gesture towards a teammate and not a row of kids. Plus, Favre acts lke an adult unlike Vick.

No, it's not illegal to give someone herpes but to use a fake identity to get laid when you're one of the most well known stars in sports is just childish.

Moses
07-27-2007, 07:43 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=munson_lester&id=2950481

Vick pleads not guilty, as do the other defendants.

Interesting article with a lot of good tidbits that tell us a lot more about this case.

The trial will have a jury which definitely works against Vick.

ks_perfection
07-27-2007, 10:43 AM
Jury could help as it could only takes 1 die hard Vick supporter to hang the jury no matter the evidence.

Moses
07-27-2007, 10:45 AM
Jury could help as it could only takes 1 die hard Vick supporter to hang the jury no matter the evidence.

I doubt any Vick supporters will be able to actually get onto the jury. They'll probably automatically filter out any football fans. The jury is more likely to fall for the whole "look at how bad these dogs were tortured" evidence.

jackson34
07-27-2007, 11:18 AM
You don't have any insiders within the Falcons. If you did you would have known what the falcons were going to do in the draft instead of being way off with all of your predictions. If you have insiders who are they? It is amazing to me how many people on these boards know insiders? Like someone said before if you had insiders why would you be wasting your time on message boards.

SubNoize
07-27-2007, 01:49 PM
Reebok and the NFL will longer sale Vick jerseys or merchandise. if you did order a Vick jersey, you can be refunded. I guess no matter what the trial outcome Vick is a guilty man in the public eye.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

Moses
07-27-2007, 02:00 PM
Reebok and the NFL will longer sale Vick jerseys or merchandise. if you did order a Vick jersey, you can be refunded. I guess no matter what the trial outcome Vick is a guilty man in the public eye.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

If he's cleared of the charges jerseys will go back on sale, guaranteed.

SubNoize
07-27-2007, 02:03 PM
If he's cleared of the charges jerseys will go back on sale, guaranteed.

i know that, i just find it odd that they pulled the plug all together, i wonder if pacman merchandise or jerseys are available.

trkaline
07-27-2007, 02:15 PM
For every Falcons #7 jersey you buy....Vick kills a puppy.....

Windy
07-27-2007, 11:21 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2952092

LMAO. co-defendant to make a plea deal.

scar988
07-27-2007, 11:26 PM
You don't have any insiders within the Falcons. If you did you would have known what the falcons were going to do in the draft instead of being way off with all of your predictions. If you have insiders who are they? It is amazing to me how many people on these boards know insiders? Like someone said before if you had insiders why would you be wasting your time on message boards.

who are they? I'm not gonna release info... btu they are a couple guys in the scouting department and a higher up in the FO... and this past draft I was saying we were going to go with Anderson if the top 6 were gone (Landry, Peterson, Adams, Calvin, Brown, Thomas.) and we did. I have quite good knowledge... but you also have to realize that the draft changes pick by pick as well... every single time someone comes off the board, the board of who is the BPA changes... oh and I waste my time on message boards because 1) I don't want to work for ESPN. and 2) Why the hell would I want to waste time as a sports analyst...

lod01
07-28-2007, 12:57 PM
scar988, your boy is going down!!! OUCH.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7067196?MSNHPHMA

Lucky for you. This year with Joe Horn, he would have been totally exposed for the fraud of a QB that he was. Lucky for the Falcons though. Now they can make a run at Brohm and turn the franchise around.

trkaline
07-28-2007, 02:08 PM
Day 136 of The Michael Vick Trial...Closing Statements...

Ladies and gentleman of the Jury...I have some questions to ask you...do you like chicken? Ok now ask yourself this, what if I was to say your not allowed to eat chicken, how would that strike you? You'd probably do it anyway wouldn't you? Yes in your own house you think your safe... Chicken is so tasty I don't care what the consequence is huh?..You would still eat chicken correct? Well my client...has a slightly different taste, he perfers canine..No no wait im not finished...he killed those dogs with the intentions of eating them...I defy you to tell me how you and my client are different....Think what if it was chicken? What if it was me?....I know you will do the right thing... I rest my case...

jag
07-28-2007, 02:10 PM
Day 136 of The Michael Vick Trial...Closing Statements...

Ladies and gentleman of the Jury...I have some questions to ask you...do you like chicken? Ok now ask yourself this, what if I was to say your not allowed to eat chicken, how would that strike you? You'd probably do it anyway wouldn't you? Yes in your own house you think your safe... Chicken is so tasty I don't care what the consequence is huh?..You would still eat chicken correct? Well my client...has a slightly different taste, he perfers canine..No no wait im not finished...he killed those dogs with the intentions of eating them...I defy you to tell me how you and my client are different....Think what if it was chicken? What if it was me?....I know you will do the right thing... I rest my case...

Dear god. +rep

SubNoize
07-28-2007, 02:24 PM
Day 136 of The Michael Vick Trial...Closing Statements...

Ladies and gentleman of the Jury...I have some questions to ask you...do you like chicken? Ok now ask yourself this, what if I was to say your not allowed to eat chicken, how would that strike you? You'd probably do it anyway wouldn't you? Yes in your own house you think your safe... Chicken is so tasty I don't care what the consequence is huh?..You would still eat chicken correct? Well my client...has a slightly different taste, he perfers canine..No no wait im not finished...he killed those dogs with the intentions of eating them...I defy you to tell me how you and my client are different....Think what if it was chicken? What if it was me?....I know you will do the right thing... I rest my case...

I'm hoping that this was meant as a joke...

trkaline
07-28-2007, 02:25 PM
I'm hoping that this was meant as a joke...

Ofcourse...unless his defense team really wants to use it...

neko4
07-28-2007, 02:26 PM
Ofcourse...unless his defense team really wants to use it...

Cochran would, and it would work

SubNoize
07-28-2007, 02:29 PM
Cochran would, and it would work

Cochran would never abandon his most proven defense...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/08/0330chewbacca.jpg

THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!