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Splat
07-26-2007, 10:54 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-bengals-thurman&prov=ap&type=lgns

CINCINNATI (AP) -- Odell Thurman (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7224/;_ylt=AicQSkjlcqFKIRMmuiSDw60dsLYF)'s petition for reinstatement was denied Thursday by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, who decided that the Cincinnati Bengals (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/cin/;_ylt=At3_DassKfRRbLtYsQEV3wQdsLYF) middle linebacker should miss another season because of his ongoing problems.

Thurman was suspended for all of last season after skipping a drug test and later being arrested for drunken driving. He asked Goodell to reinstate him for the 2007 season, but was turned down.

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 10:59 AM
This seriously annoys me beyond belief.

How can ANYONE convince me that what he did was worse than what Chris Henry did? He was suspended OVER a year more than Henry who has been way worse off field. It's as if Goodell doesn't care at all that he was suspended last year, no way this warrants two full years.

By all accounts Odell actually seemed to be a changed man (this wasn't the case before his DUI) and the coaching staff (minus Marvin)/players were pulling for him because they felt he was ready to turn a new leaf.

Apparently he can reapply but it probably won't do any good. This is BS.

Moses
07-26-2007, 11:06 AM
I agree that this is very excessive. Goodell needs to institute some standards so he's not just blindly punishing guys as he sees fit. 2 years for what? A DUI and failed drug test?

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 11:08 AM
Odell didn't even test positive on the drug test, he just missed it... Granted that rightfully doesn't matter but still.

I would really like to hope there is something they could do about this because it isn't the least bit fair.

TheMadLionsFan
07-26-2007, 11:27 AM
Godell is a Sith Lord....

Vikes99ej
07-26-2007, 11:29 AM
I don't agree with Goodell's decision.

B-Dawk
07-26-2007, 11:43 AM
The union should definitely step in here

bearsfan_51
07-26-2007, 11:48 AM
Most teams would have cut Thurman after his DUI after missing/failing a drug test. Sorry but it's hard to feel any sympathy for the Bengals, you reap what you sow.

bearsfan_51
07-26-2007, 11:51 AM
Also, Thurman hasn't exactly kept his nose totally clean, he and his brother are under suspicion for an assault that happened like 5-6 weeks ago.

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 12:17 PM
Also, Thurman hasn't exactly kept his nose totally clean, he and his brother are under suspicion for an assault that happened like 5-6 weeks ago.

The guys stories didn't line up, supposedly they were trying to get some cash out of the deal but because they didn't have the same stories it never made it to the courts.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
07-26-2007, 12:21 PM
to bad, but maybe players will start getting level heads and think before they throw their careers away like most people in society do. i'm suprised in this instance, but i'm sure there is rational behind it

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 12:23 PM
As of 2 or 3 months ago he was completely clean on all of his tests, if he was actually dumb enough to fail a test within that time frame then yes I understand this tacked on time.... Otherwise there is no way to justify this.

princefielder28
07-26-2007, 12:24 PM
It's a message to the Bengals as well that they need to clean up their organization otherwise they'll be missing players that are difference makers.

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 12:26 PM
It's a message to the Bengals as well that they need to clean up their organization otherwise they'll be missing players that are difference makers.

That message has already been sent. It was Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis who pressed to have Odell suspended for the season last year anyway.

Even if that was the message how could he justify suspending Odell 24 more games than Henry?

remix 6
07-26-2007, 12:34 PM
whoever thinks this is wrong..what are u reading?

it says he will be suspended for ONGOING problems

so either hes still an alcoholic or hes still doing something wrong and getting in trouble that maybe we dont know about

bsaza2358
07-26-2007, 12:34 PM
I don't foresee this holding up. With minimal additional legal issues and no positive/missed drug tests, I can't see Odell missing much more time.

Moses
07-26-2007, 12:36 PM
whoever thinks this is wrong..what are u reading?

it says he will be suspended for ONGOING problems

so either hes still an alcoholic or hes still doing something wrong and getting in trouble that maybe we dont know

Huh? How would we not know if he's in trouble? That is public knowledge.

remix 6
07-26-2007, 12:38 PM
Huh? How would we not know if he's in trouble? That is public knowledge.

just cuz media doesnt catch it doesnt mean someone didnt get in trouble. im sure theres plenty of players that didnt get their arrest or something posted all over media.

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 12:38 PM
whoever thinks this is wrong..what are u reading?

it says he will be suspended for ONGOING problems

so either hes still an alcoholic or hes still doing something wrong and getting in trouble that maybe we dont know

He no longer has alcohol abuse issues, he has been clean for many months now and attends rehab every day (per coaches/players).

As I said earlier, if he did get busted for weed or something recently then I completely understand this... Otherwise there's no reason for it. Odell actually had a chance to be a positive story for the NFL if he came out clean after his year long suspension.

scar988
07-26-2007, 12:38 PM
This seriously annoys me beyond belief.

How can ANYONE convince me that what he did was worse than what Chris Henry did? He was suspended OVER a year more than Henry who has been way worse off field. It's as if Goodell doesn't care at all that he was suspended last year, no way this warrants two full years.

By all accounts Odell actually seemed to be a changed man (this wasn't the case before his DUI) and the coaching staff (minus Marvin)/players were pulling for him because they felt he was ready to turn a new leaf.

Apparently he can reapply but it probably won't do any good. This is BS.

this is horrible... he should take Goodell to court. He should be allowed to play...

scar988
07-26-2007, 12:39 PM
He no longer has alcohol abuse issues, he has been clean for many months now and attends rehab every day (per coaches/players).

As I said earlier, if he did get busted for weed or something recently then I completely understand this... Otherwise there's no reason for it. Odell actually had a chance to be a positive story for the NFL if he came out clean after his year long suspension.

he doesn't go to rehab... he goes to AA meetings and has a great support system... and that is what matters more.

Moses
07-26-2007, 12:39 PM
just cuz media doesnt catch it doesnt mean someone didnt get in trouble. im sure theres plenty of players that didnt get their arrest or something posted all over media.

Extremely doubtful...local papers at the very least would pickup any player arrests.

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 12:41 PM
Yeah I very highly doubt Odell could've had a positive test and the media not get ahold of it.

NGSeiler
07-26-2007, 12:57 PM
It took local papers more than a month to pick up on Jimmy Williams' marijuana citation from June, didn't it? So I don't think you can rule out something else happening to Odell that might have been missed, especially if it was another failed test within the league. However, if Odell has been completely clean both in tests and behavior, then denying his petition for reinstatement is strange.

Moses
07-26-2007, 12:58 PM
It took local papers more than a month to pick up on Jimmy Williams' marijuana citation from June, didn't it? So I don't think you can rule out something else happening to Odell that might have been missed, especially if it was another failed test within the league. However, if Odell has been completely clean both in tests and behavior, then denying his petition for reinstatement is strange.

Why wouldn't Goodell say specifically why he wasn't being reinstated then?

bearsfan_51
07-26-2007, 01:02 PM
Why wouldn't Goodell say specifically why he wasn't being reinstated then?
Confidentiality. I don't believe they have ever stated why, it's just that the reasons are usually already out there.

Also, the assault case against Odell is not dropped as of yet, they are simply trying to collect more evidence.

bsaza2358
07-26-2007, 01:09 PM
Perhaps Gooddell could reinstate him after he delves into this recent assault issue. Probably a good idea to hold off a few days to be sure before risking anything.

Moses
07-26-2007, 01:11 PM
Confidentiality. I don't believe they have ever stated why, it's just that the reasons are usually already out there.

Also, the assault case against Odell is not dropped as of yet, they are simply trying to collect more evidence.

If somebody is charged with a crime, it is public knowledge...

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 01:12 PM
Confidentiality. I don't believe they have ever stated why, it's just that the reasons are usually already out there.

Also, the assault case against Odell is not dropped as of yet, they are simply trying to collect more evidence.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2897413

NGSeiler
07-26-2007, 01:18 PM
Why wouldn't Goodell say specifically why he wasn't being reinstated then?

Is he required to publicly give his reasons for this decision? As I understand it, it wasn't Goodell that publicly released the decision; he told the Bengals and they reported it in a statement.

bearsfan_51
07-26-2007, 01:18 PM
If somebody is charged with a crime, it is public knowledge...

From the commisioner of football? You're arguing two different things here. I really wish we could seperate the court of law from the court of the NFL, it's not the same thing at all.

Moses
07-26-2007, 01:27 PM
From the commisioner of football? You're arguing two different things here. I really wish we could seperate the court of law from the court of the NFL, it's not the same thing at all.

You're saying that Goodell can withold why he was suspended for confidentiality, right? I'm saying that anything Thurman could get suspended for is public knowledge so there is no reason for confidentiality.

JT Jag
07-26-2007, 01:34 PM
I would be shocked and appalled if the union didn't take this up.

MasterShake
07-26-2007, 03:21 PM
You're saying that Goodell can withold why he was suspended for confidentiality, right? I'm saying that anything Thurman could get suspended for is public knowledge so there is no reason for confidentiality.

OBVIOUSLY whatever he did ISN'T public knowledge because nobody on here has a freakin clue why he isn't being re-instated. That said, I doubt Goodell woke up one day and said to himself, "Hey, that Thurman guy...I'ma gunna pee in his cheerios!"

Surprisingly us message board posters don't know everything that goes on in these players lives....

TheChampIsHere
07-26-2007, 04:58 PM
What did he do to not get reinstated? I feel like the NFL owes us an explanation

themaninblack
07-26-2007, 08:30 PM
this is completely excessive and unfair. telling a young man who has seemingly been changing his lifestyle and adhered to the terms of his program that he cannot play football is not only going to hurt his playing career, but his life as well.

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 08:58 PM
I just got off work and I'm still bitter about this.

They ran a story the other night on the news about the charities Odell has become involved with. He helps run football camps and speaks on the poor decisions he had made to show the kids to not go that route. Now this. As bad as it sounds I'd like to think there's something that hasn't been leaked which led to this but the media in Cincy has leaked two massively false stories in the past few months so the second they get wind of actual true news you know they'll run it.

Moses
07-26-2007, 09:15 PM
OBVIOUSLY whatever he did ISN'T public knowledge because nobody on here has a freakin clue why he isn't being re-instated. That said, I doubt Goodell woke up one day and said to himself, "Hey, that Thurman guy...I'ma gunna pee in his cheerios!"

Surprisingly us message board posters don't know everything that goes on in these players lives....

If it's not public knowledge, then it's not illegal. Hence, he shouldn't have been suspended. The league should always disclose why a player is being suspended.

princefielder28
07-26-2007, 09:16 PM
If it's not public knowledge, then it's not illegal. Hence, he shouldn't have been suspended. The league should always disclose why a player is being suspended.

right, anything that happens in the legal system is put on the interenet in some form of curcuit courts or something of the sort

PalmerToCJ
07-26-2007, 09:42 PM
If it's not public knowledge, then it's not illegal. Hence, he shouldn't have been suspended. The league should always disclose why a player is being suspended.

Especially in this case where the reason is nonexistant.

MasterShake
07-26-2007, 10:06 PM
If it's not public knowledge, then it's not illegal. Hence, he shouldn't have been suspended. The league should always disclose why a player is being suspended.

Yes, you've stated that point before, but it seems to be irrelevent in this case because what he has done is NOT public knowledge. Once a player is suspended he does not have to break the law to stay suspended....he just has to not meet the guildlines of his suspension.

Moses
07-26-2007, 10:08 PM
Yes, you've stated that point before, but it seems to be irrelevent in this case because what he has done is NOT public knowledge. Once a player is suspended he does not have to break the law to stay suspended....he just has to not meet the guildlines of his suspension.

What could he have done that would be confidential that would keep him suspended? Also, I don't think it's true that he has to meet guildlines to play again. He already served his punishment.

NGSeiler
07-26-2007, 10:24 PM
Also, I don't think it's true that he has to meet guildlines to play again. He already served his punishment.

In order to be reinstated after a minimum banishment of one-year, the player must be in full compliance with all aspects of his treatment plan, and he likewise must submit to and pass any and all random urine tests imposed upon him. Even if the player complies with the treatment plan and passes all tests, reinstatement is not automatic.

From a report posted this afternoon @ 1pm.

MasterShake
07-26-2007, 10:27 PM
From a report posted this afternoon @ 1pm.

Thanks for saving me the trouble.

Mr. Stiller
07-27-2007, 10:18 AM
I dislike the bengals.. but frankly I find this excessive.

He got his 4 game, then year suspension. He's been clean, hasn't gotten busted for anything.

I think Chris Henry should be out completely this season and Odell reinstated.

PalmerToCJ
07-27-2007, 10:22 AM
I dislike the bengals.. but frankly I find this excessive.

He got his 4 game, then year suspension. He's been clean, hasn't gotten busted for anything.

I think Chris Henry should be out completely this season and Odell reinstated.

I completely agree. Henry deserves a year much much more than Odell does.

Odell missed drug tests (granted he could've missed them because he knew he was positive) and got a DUI and he'll get 2 years for it. Henry gets a DUI and does 10,000 other dumb things and gets 12 games total. It just doesn't make sense.

Moses
07-27-2007, 10:23 AM
Wow, that's ridiculous. Leaves way too much up to the commisioner. They allow Merriman and countless others back without barely a blip on the radar and they're suspending Thurman indefinitely? Ridiculous.

trkaline
07-27-2007, 11:08 AM
Goodell is a commissioner with something to prove. Though his sentencing is inconsistent, he's tryin to play the role of strict parent to try to save his children from taking the "wrong path." Commissioner Goodell is only one man and he's tryin to do his best ,but its a rather steep learning curve.

Moses
07-27-2007, 11:18 AM
Goodell is a commissioner with something to prove. Though his sentencing is inconsistent, he's tryin to play the role of strict parent to try to save his children from taking the "wrong path." Commissioner Goodell is only one man and he's tryin to do his best ,but its a rather steep learning curve.

Ending a guy's career isn't exactly rehabilitating him. He's been suspended a year which is plenty long enough for what he has done.

trkaline
07-27-2007, 11:24 AM
Ending a guy's career isn't exactly rehabilitating him. He's been suspended a year which is plenty long enough for what he has done.

I know that but, he's only been at this position a short time he's trying different things as you see, just this time it so happens he's screwin Thurman over to try to prove a point.

The Unseen
07-27-2007, 01:05 PM
This makes little sense. Maybe they know something we don't, but it's way excessive.

Addict
07-27-2007, 01:10 PM
This makes little sense. Maybe they know something we don't, but it's way excessive.

I think he's just sensitive.

trkaline
07-27-2007, 01:11 PM
This makes little sense. Maybe they know something we don't, but it's way excessive.

In an offseason where players actions make little sense...There is one man who can make as little sense handing out disciplinairy actions as the players...Roger Goodell stars in The Commish...

Moses
07-27-2007, 01:13 PM
In an offseason where players actions make little sense...There is one man who can make as little sense handing out disciplinairy actions as the players...Roger Goodell stars in The Commish...

More like Roger Goodell stars in Mein Kampf.

PalmerToCJ
07-27-2007, 01:18 PM
More like Roger Goodell stars in Mein Kampf.

That's what I'm saying.

trkaline
07-27-2007, 01:18 PM
More like Roger Goodell stars in Mein Kampf.

Yea I know if I was in the NFL right now i'd be scared to jay walk...

Addict
07-27-2007, 01:28 PM
Yea I know if I was in the NFL right now i'd be scared to jay walk...

http://wizbangblog.com/images/respect.jpg
^ goodell.

Smooth Criminal
07-27-2007, 02:02 PM
I still like the new way the Commish works. Has to be putting players on edge knowing that they can be suspended for very little at this point.

Maybe they will look at the talent and the privledge they have been blessed with and not abuse it by getting into trouble.

Moses
07-27-2007, 02:06 PM
I still like the new way the Commish works. Has to be putting players on edge knowing that they can be suspended for very little at this point.

Maybe they will look at the talent and the privledge they have been blessed with and not abuse it by getting into trouble.

Right, because players should be banished from the league permanently for making one mistake.

trkaline
07-27-2007, 02:08 PM
I still like the new way the Commish works. Has to be putting players on edge knowing that they can be suspended for very little at this point.

Maybe they will look at the talent and the privledge they have been blessed with and not abuse it by getting into trouble.

True I know if I were given million's I wouldnt want to f it up...I woulda just had a party at my big friggin mansion, no more DUI...

yourfavestoner
07-27-2007, 02:27 PM
I know that but, he's only been at this position a short time he's trying different things as you see, just this time it so happens he's screwin Thurman over to try to prove a point.

So it's okay for Goodell to play with people's lives while he tries to figure out the most effective punishments?

God, the whole Roger Goodell era has been so ******* ridiculous already. When did people start caring about policing athletes' lives?

trkaline
07-27-2007, 02:31 PM
So it's okay for Goodell to play with people's lives while he tries to figure out the most effective punishments?

God, the whole Roger Goodell era has been so ******* ridiculous already. When did people start caring about policing athletes' lives?

Im not tryin to justify Goodell im just saying how he could do that. The leagues always had disciplinary problems hes trying to cut them down to a minimum hes trying to do what looks best for the leagues image...only problem is soon all 32 teams wil be missing ppl...

Bengals78
07-27-2007, 03:11 PM
Goodell has lost his mind. There is no logical reason to continue to suspend Odell. He has only done stuff to make him self better since the DUI. I think it would be best if he was reinstated to be around his teamates

NGSeiler
07-27-2007, 05:09 PM
Right, because players should be banished from the league permanently for making one mistake.

A permanent ban, really? Can you provide a link to the source that says it's permanent? Because I was under the assumption he could apply for reinstatement again in six months.

PalmerToCJ
07-27-2007, 05:14 PM
A permanent ban, really? Can you provide a link to the source that says it's permanent? Because I was under the assumption he could apply for reinstatement again in six months.

I think he was just exaggerating for emphasis.

Granted, it's hard to think Odell will ever have much more of a football career after this and he's lost some serious cash.

Jared Allen gets 2 games for 2 DUI's while Odell misses some drug tests and gets one DUI and misses 2 seasons. Doesn't make sense to me, we need Al Sharpton to pull the race card on this one.

Chief49er
07-27-2007, 05:16 PM
Too bad for the Cats, he is a monster... Would of been a hell of a linebacker if he wasnt such a jackass.

As for the punishment being to hard, its called setting an example.

NGSeiler
07-27-2007, 05:32 PM
I think he was just exaggerating for emphasis.

I know, I was trying to illustrate a point - even if you think denying Thurman's petition for reinstatement is egregious, which Moses obviously does, there's no need to exaggerate it into something it isn't.

someone447
07-27-2007, 05:34 PM
I think Goodell is trying to be the exact opposite of Bud Selig, since Selig is the worst Commish in sports history, but everyone will grow to hate Goodell the same way if he keeps this crap up. He is far from consistent and is making a mockery of the disciplinary policy.

Moses was responding to someone else who was saying they liked the way that Goodell is handling these cases. He was making a point about the entire NFL, rather than just this case.

PACKmanN
07-27-2007, 06:01 PM
So it's okay for Goodell to play with people's lives while he tries to figure out the most effective punishments?

God, the whole Roger Goodell era has been so ******* ridiculous already. When did people start caring about policing athletes' lives?

when they became a threat to citizens...

BamaFalcon59
07-27-2007, 06:20 PM
The whole Goodell era has been irritating so far. Talented players (PacMan, Odell, Henry, Vick, Tank Johnson, etc) are missing very significant time. I want to see football first and formost, and taking out so many players for half a season or more is insane. Granted, some like Vick might need to be out a year (pending what happens as far as guilt). But most of this is for the legal system to resolve IMO, the NFL should stick to football. How do things like this warrent 32 games. 32! I mean this kid had an outstanding rookie season and is now missing 2 years of football for something that IMO warrented 8 games.

TheChampIsHere
07-27-2007, 06:30 PM
its a tough situation and I understand what Goodells trying to do, set an example, clean up the league image, etc...but he could be going too far, he really needs to think about what hes doing and not get completely caught up in the idea of setting an example. Its very important that he be FAIR, and when he does something like this and doesnt even offer a good explanation as to why he has suspended Odell for an extra year it raises a lot of doubts.

PackerLegend
07-27-2007, 08:30 PM
Ouch that sucks.

critesy
07-27-2007, 09:58 PM
everything moses and palmertocj said

Quoted for truth

Aftermath
07-27-2007, 10:01 PM
This is rediculous, wtf did he do to warrant another year worth of not playing football?

Goodell is a jackass.

ripdw27
07-27-2007, 10:02 PM
thats wayy to harsh i realize hes tryin to show people he means business but that kinda excessive.. whoaa i thnk 4-6 games would be proper

Caddy
07-27-2007, 10:03 PM
Too bad for the Cats, he is a monster... Would of been a hell of a linebacker if he wasnt such a jackass.

As for the punishment being to hard, its called setting an example.

There is setting an example and there is this. 2 years is a completely ridiculous sentence for Thurman. His 12 months off was warranted but adding another 12 to that is just stupid.

themaninblack
07-27-2007, 10:06 PM
this is great now our first 2 picks from 2005 are out for 2 years a piece, for different reasons of course.

Mr. Stiller
07-27-2007, 10:38 PM
thats wayy to harsh i realize hes tryin to show people he means business but that kinda excessive.. whoaa i thnk 4-6 games would be proper

Which he already served...

4 times for 4 games.. nearly 3 times if 6 games.

I'm all about Goodell cleaning up the league.. but be consistant.

How many Run-ins did pacman have with the law? vs. Odell?
How many times did Chris Henry screw up.. how many games is he missing vs. Odell?

Mike Vick is going to miss all of TC and how many games? probably not 2 seasons worth if no indictment.

Jared Allen, What about guys that failed the drug tests?

Hollis Thomas, Shaun Rogers, Shawne Merriman..?


Does he have a dartboard, blindfold himself and say a name and a date on the board?

Seems like he struck the bullseye for Odell twice.

PalmerToCJ
07-27-2007, 10:46 PM
Well said Mr. Stiller, Bravo.

Seriously, I know it's not the homer in me coming out by protecting Odell because Henry deserves two years well before Odell does... I thought Henrys was fair but given what he's done to Odell it's entirely too leniant.

And you can't tell me Jared Allen driving drunk TWICE is 30 games less than Odell getting one DUI and even if he was positive for weed I'd rather a guy sit around doing weed than driving around endangering others lives. At least Odell didn't make the same mistake twice. That's what really annoys me is Allen getting off so lightly.

Chief49er
07-28-2007, 01:17 AM
IMHO... he would be one of the top 5 LB's right now if he played.

Mr. Stiller
07-28-2007, 11:20 AM
IMHO... he would be one of the top 5 LB's right now if he played.

I think thats going a little extreme.. but he would certainly bolster the Bengals Linebacker core missing both Odell and Pollack..

I think Pollack at Will, Brooks at Mike, and Odell at Sam would be one of the best and youngest LB groups in the nfl. Only I don't know how Pollack and Odell will do with 2 years of no action.

PalmerToCJ
07-28-2007, 12:05 PM
I actually think Odell would be a great Will (not as good as he was for MLB, though) which is where I thought he would eventually start later this season. He could be a top 5 MLB maybe but not LB overall, who knows. Odell just flat out made plays.

BlindSite
07-28-2007, 09:37 PM
I've agreed with Goodell up until this point he shouldn't have been suspended for another year.

JoeMontainya
07-29-2007, 10:42 AM
I agree that this is very excessive. Goodell needs to institute some standards so he's not just blindly punishing guys as he sees fit. 2 years for what? A DUI and failed drug test?

You honestly think Goodell did this over a DUI and missed test? Theres much more to the story I gaurantee that the NFL didnt want let out and the fact that THurman didnt fight the newest decision backs it up.

SouthernComfort
07-29-2007, 10:52 AM
You honestly think Goodell did this over a DUI and missed test? Theres much more to the story I gaurantee that the NFL didnt want let out and the fact that THurman didnt fight the newest decision backs it up.
He is appealing with the team's full backing...Get your facts straight...

If he did screw uip and the public didn't know, I would find it hard to believe the team didn't know...

PalmerToCJ
07-29-2007, 10:55 AM
You honestly think Goodell did this over a DUI and missed test? Theres much more to the story I gaurantee that the NFL didnt want let out and the fact that THurman didnt fight the newest decision backs it up.

Really? Straight off Bengals.com....


One of Odell Thurman's representatives says he plans to file an appeal through the NFL Players Association early next week of NFL commissioner Roger Goodell's decision to extend Thurman's suspension for another year.

"We've got the backing of the team and the appeal should be received Monday," said Safarrah Lawson on Friday night, a day after Goodell's decision shelved Thurman for the second straight season. "We feel like he has complied with the guidelines set down by the league. He hasn't had a positive test. He's been clean and they can test him up to 10 times a month."

An NFLPA lawyer will try to make the case with Goodell, who hears the appeals of his sanctions.

wogitalia
07-30-2007, 06:26 AM
Goodell is out of control. He is like Stern already and Stern at least had 15 good years before he lost the plot.

What these guys dont seem to get is that by sweeping it under the rug less damage is done.

Now instead of that offseason thing that happened in the past, every single game when a CB gets beaten for the Titans we are going to hear about Pacman making it rain(because so far thats as close as he has actually come to a criminal activity).

NFL is actually becoming a joke with the way they are dealing with the players, I can smell a holdout in the very near future if they dont take a step back, people are human, everyone knows someone who got done for DUI, sure it's stupid, but it isnt the big deal that the NFL seems to want to make it. I mean honestly, there are approximately 2000 players in the NFL, 10 in 2000 getting in trouble each year is nothing, I imagine it is below the average in America, especially if you consider the demographics involved.

This is worse than Pacman getting a year for being in the wrong place at the wrong time(whether he knows whoever ****** up or not).

Shahin
07-30-2007, 01:42 PM
Roger Goodell is a jackass.

#1chiefs_fan
07-30-2007, 04:23 PM
i really liked him, i thought one season was enough but I guess his career is good as over.

Aftermath
07-30-2007, 05:29 PM
I hope he wins the appeal and is on the field this season....

Jeanty - Brooks - Thurman

Would be outstanding.

Dam8610
07-30-2007, 05:43 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-bengals-thurman&prov=ap&type=lgns

CINCINNATI (AP) -- Odell Thurman (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7224/;_ylt=AicQSkjlcqFKIRMmuiSDw60dsLYF)'s petition for reinstatement was denied Thursday by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, who decided that the Cincinnati Bengals (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/cin/;_ylt=At3_DassKfRRbLtYsQEV3wQdsLYF) middle linebacker should miss another season because of his ongoing problems.

Thurman was suspended for all of last season after skipping a drug test and later being arrested for drunken driving. He asked Goodell to reinstate him for the 2007 season, but was turned down.

Goodell:
http://rebelrockrunners.org/gallery/d/15309-2/ban_him.jpg

NGSeiler
08-01-2007, 03:24 PM
So does this change anyone's mind?

Suspended Cincinnati Bengals linebacker Odell Thurman violated his Hamilton County probation and must show up in court to explain why.

Thurman, who was suspended all of last season and for all of the 2007 season by the NFL, was supposed to report to his Hamilton County probation officer July 24.

When he didn’t, Probation Officers Liz Albert and Bob Lutkenhoff filed a criminal complaint against him for not reporting.

They also said Thurman still owes $574 in fees, fines and costs due the probation department.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/SPT02/308010038

PalmerToCJ
08-01-2007, 03:32 PM
Nope, dumb that he didn't report to his probation officer but what does that have to do with him being suspended another year. He's apparently cured of alcoholism. He wasn't found driving under a suspended license or for another DUI (see Jared Allen).

THURMAN REQUEST SENT: John Michels, the attorney for Bengals linebacker Odell Thurman, has sent a letter to the NFL Players Association requesting that the union appeal Thurman's second one-year suspension from the NFL.

"We believe that he's jumped through the hoops that he was asked to jump through and that he's a good candidate for reinstatement," Michels said Tuesday.

The NFLPA has 30 days to notify commissioner Roger Goodell's office of an appeal that Michels terms "an uphill battle."

Because of the strict privacy guidelines of the league's substance abuse policy, Michels said it's "a black box process" for not only the public but for him.

Michels says he's not aware of "any definable event" that has prevented Thurman from being reinstated. He says the league may be working off factors that can't be quantified.

"We may be talking about a gradient, a slope of behavior that past a certain point he's not reinstated. But without a definable event, I don't know," Michels said.

"I think our position has to be, �Look, he sat out for a year and he did what was asked,' '' Michels said. "The reinstatement policy says to look at conduct over the period of suspension. Our position is that it was good enough to get back in. If they think it's a problem, then doesn't it make more sense to put him back in the league where he's around the club and teammates can provide a little reinforcement? If the program is designed to provide help for those who need it, I'm not sure this is helping."

Michels said he's not aware if an incident in Thurman's hometown of Monticello, Ga., last month figured in the decision. Two men accused Thurman of assault at an early-morning party, but dropped the charges before the case came before a magistrate.

The Cincinnati Enquirer reported that the NFL did ask Jasper County officlals for information about that case.

"Odell was surprised and he's very disappointed," Michels said of his client's current mindframe. "I think right now he's taking a deep breath and asking, �What next?' "

NGSeiler
08-01-2007, 03:41 PM
Nope, dumb that he didn't report to his probation officer but what does that have to do with him being suspended another year.

So you think Goodell should have reinstated Thurman, even though Odell violated the terms of his probation? Really?

TheChampIsHere
08-01-2007, 11:48 PM
so he got suspended for an entire extra season because he missed an apointment with a probation officer and owes 500 dollars? I mean of course he should have all his fees paid on time and should make sure he doesnt miss any apointments, meetings or court dates or anything. I know I always made sure I did....But cmon are you kidding me Goodell? Stuff happens, he probably has some kind of explanation and its just such a minor thing and for Goodel to ignore everything good he has done and suspend him for another year, which really hurts his chances of having any kind of career in the NFL, based on some minor stuff like that is just ridiculous.

NGSeiler
08-02-2007, 12:19 AM
But cmon are you kidding me Goodell? Stuff happens, he probably has some kind of explanation and its just such a minor thing and for Goodel to ignore everything good he has done and suspend him for another year, which really hurts his chances of having any kind of career in the NFL, based on some minor stuff like that is just ridiculous.

When did violating one's probation become a minor thing? In June, Thurman had a 90-day jail term reduced to six days in treatment and two years probation. He apparently couldn't even go two months after sentencing before violating it by missing a meeting with his probation officer.

I guess we'll get to hear Odell's reasons for missing his meeting when he goes in front of a judge on August 21st, but in light of this update regarding further problems with the law, I think Goodell's decision makes much more sense.

wogitalia
08-02-2007, 01:00 AM
I can say one thing for sure... Odel needs to hire himself a reminder. Someone who just follows him around and makes sure he turns up when he is meant to. Misses drug tests, meetings with probation officers. Thats the kind of **** that you dont forget unless you are borderline ********.

TheChampIsHere
08-02-2007, 02:03 AM
When did violating one's probation become a minor thing? In June, Thurman had a 90-day jail term reduced to six days in treatment and two years probation. He apparently couldn't even go two months after sentencing before violating it by missing a meeting with his probation officer.

I guess we'll get to hear Odell's reasons for missing his meeting when he goes in front of a judge on August 21st, but in light of this update regarding further problems with the law, I think Goodell's decision makes much more sense.

ummm no its not a big deal. Maybe something came up, maybe he just spaced out, maybe he got stuck in traffic...who knows, but no it is not a huge deal. You say violated his probation but there are a number of ways to violate your probation. If he violated it by getting busted for another DUI or any kind of drinking related offense (public intoxication etc) then we could call it a big deal because it would show he obviously has a alcohol problem and he has failed to get it under control....But missing a meeting with his probation officer? Yes, its a violation, and he shouldnt be missing them, he needs to be on top of his stuff and be more responsible than that, but lets not blow this up into more than it is. If hes doing everything right the whole way, one missed meeting with his probation officer is not enough to condemn the guy. This kind of stuff happens, chances are strongly against him even facing any real consquences from the law for missing his meeting with his PO, why should Goodell be putting heavy sanctions on it. Im not making excuses for the dude, but this is a minor offense and its not grounds to suspend someone for a season. Just look at it comparitavely to other players...Chris Henry and Pac-Man, who have had a hell of a lot more problems than Odell got 8 and 16 with a a chance to be cut down to 10, respectively. And for both of these players all the talk was on how excessive the punishments were and how they were trying to make an example of those 2. Look at Jarred Allen, who also had a DUI, hes getting a grand total of 2 games. Odell is getting 2 entire seasons. OK, he missed a PO meeting, it still doesnt even come close to adding up. Tank Johnson was arrested and convicted and goes to jail for having enough guns to start a war on a small country among other problems and he gets less than a season. It doesnt add up.

Honestly, I have to feel like theres something we dont know about Odell, because it doesnt make sense to me. Its hard for me to believe that Goodel could be on that much of a power trip/has that kind of grudge against Odell that he would suspend him for 2 full seasons for his violations that we aware of. I have to think there is more to this than we are being made aware of....and on that note, a main point in Goodells cracking down on off-field behavior is to clean up the public image of the league and to make examples out of violators to show that the league doesnt condone this...So if its all about the PR and whatnot, why dont we know more about this. For Goodell to have any integrity and credibility in his cause he needs to making it well known what the violators did and how he is handling it and not some kind of private matter just between him and the player (which would be fine with me, except that the whole reasoning for all these suspensions is cleaning up the leagues public image)... This whole case is very troubling to me and if some answers dont start coming out about why he is getting another season or his suspension/reinstatement status gets changed, Goodell is gonna lose a lot of credibility in my eyes.

NGSeiler
08-02-2007, 02:49 AM
ummm no its not a big deal.

We're simply just going to have to agree to disagree then, because I think when you're under the microscope trying to prove yourself, any infraction is a big deal. It was up to Odell to make his case for reinstatement. It was up to him to walk the line and do what he had to do. In this case, what he had to do was meet with his probation officer. It would seem he failed to do so, less than two months after his probation began! Violating one's probation - no matter how big or small a violation it might be - is not something you do when you're trying to prove you've matured and are ready to return to the league.

Im not making excuses for the dude

Really? "Maybe something came up, maybe he just spaced out, maybe he got stuck in traffic." It would seem as if you're going through a laundry list of excuses. :confused:

TheChampIsHere
08-02-2007, 12:11 PM
We're simply just going to have to agree to disagree then, because I think when you're under the microscope trying to prove yourself, any infraction is a big deal. It was up to Odell to make his case for reinstatement. It was up to him to walk the line and do what he had to do. In this case, what he had to do was meet with his probation officer. It would seem he failed to do so, less than two months after his probation began! Violating one's probation - no matter how big or small a violation it might be - is not something you do when you're trying to prove you've matured and are ready to return to the league.


Well I agree, he absolutely should be walking the line in his situation. Like I was saying, when I was in a similar situation, I made sure I was on time and conscientious for all my appointments and meetings and did everything I had to....but for instance one time I missed this class I was supposed to go to for the program they had put me in because while I set 2 alarms, neither one went off (AM/PM on one, volume on the other)...I worked it out with the program manager and it all ended up cool....But the point is things like missed meetings are gonna happen from time to time and he should absolutely be more responsible than that but its just not a major infraction, he didnt commit some kind of serious offense here, nothing he did was criminal in nature. And the punishment by Goodell does not come close to fiiting the crime of missing a meeting. I have to believe that there is more to this than I realize, but if this is really all there is to it, Goodell is officially out of control.

NGSeiler
08-02-2007, 01:53 PM
But the point is things like missed meetings are gonna happen from time to time and he should absolutely be more responsible than that but its just not a major infraction, he didnt commit some kind of serious offense here, nothing he did was criminal in nature.

Well for one I would argue it was criminal in nature, since it prompted two probation officers to file a criminal complaint against him, which could result in jail time.

You seem to think though that Thurman needed to commit some major infraction to justify not being reinstated, as if minor infractions should be ignored. That's where we disagree. Again, the burden is on Thurman to show he's ready to be reinstated - that means doing EVERYTHING that is required of you, minor or major. Odell apparently did not.

It would seem to me it's a pretty black and white issue, yet you continue to try and excuse it by saying how this stuff happens. Well, IMO, this stuff shouldn't happen when you're trying to prove to your boss that you've matured and you're reliable enough to return to work. When your initial infraction with the league was that you missed a drug test, missing a probation meeting usually is not a good indication that you've changed your ways and learned from your mistakes.

And the punishment by Goodell does not come close to fiiting the crime of missing a meeting.

I think this is where most people make their mistake in analyzing this. They look at it and say, "Odell was suspended 16 games for missing a meeting, that's egregious and way too much. Look at what other people got."

The problem is, Odell isn't in the same boat as other people (except maybe Pacman when he applies for reinstatement). Odell didn't get a sixteen game suspension for missing a meeting as his first suspension; Odell was denied reinstatement because he could not meet all the necessary requirements.

I would imagine that other players who have been suspended for the year and have to apply to reinstatement would be under equally large microscopes. But comparing Odell's punishment to active players in the league is a formula for misunderstanding the situation, IMO.

TheChampIsHere
08-02-2007, 03:01 PM
Well for one I would argue it was criminal in nature, since it prompted two probation officers to file a criminal complaint against him, which could result in jail time.

You seem to think though that Thurman needed to commit some major infraction to justify not being reinstated, as if minor infractions should be ignored. That's where we disagree. Again, the burden is on Thurman to show he's ready to be reinstated - that means doing EVERYTHING that is required of you, minor or major. Odell apparently did not.

It would seem to me it's a pretty black and white issue, yet you continue to try and excuse it by saying how this stuff happens. Well, IMO, this stuff shouldn't happen when you're trying to prove to your boss that you've matured and you're reliable enough to return to work. When your initial infraction with the league was that you missed a drug test, missing a probation meeting usually is not a good indication that you've changed your ways and learned from your mistakes.



I think this is where most people make their mistake in analyzing this. They look at it and say, "Odell was suspended 16 games for missing a meeting, that's egregious and way too much. Look at what other people got."

The problem is, Odell isn't in the same boat as other people (except maybe Pacman when he applies for reinstatement). Odell didn't get a sixteen game suspension for missing a meeting as his first suspension; Odell was denied reinstatement because he could not meet all the necessary requirements.

I would imagine that other players who have been suspended for the year and have to apply to reinstatement would be under equally large microscopes. But comparing Odell's punishment to active players in the league is a formula for misunderstanding the situation, IMO.

Look, I get what youre saying and I agree with most of it to a DEGREE. But the question is how far do we go with it. How hard are we gonna be on players trying to get re-instated. If he is doing everything right, has dealt with his alcohol problems, done charitable work, stayed out of trouble, met the requirements, he should be re-instated and I dont think 1 missed meeting can change all that. It is just a dangerous and unfair precedent to set.

On another note, missing a meeting with the PO is technically criminal, yes, but it is not a criminal thing by nature. We're not talking about him engaging in an activity that puts other people at risk or in harms way (DUI, assault, etc) or something self-destructive (substance abuse, etc)....were talking about missing a meeting. If someone not on probation misses a meeting with their boss or something like that, we dont consider it criminal, we just consider it as being one of two things and that is either the person is a space-case/flake/irresponsible or they got held up/stuck/emergency something like that. Either way, its not a criminal thing to do. And to me it would be understandable if a person misses a meeting, his employer could choose to terminate him. FOr instance, if he was a no-show for a game he risks getting cut by the Bengals, and theyd have every right to do and might even get to re-coup signing bonus money. But if he misses a meeting for something outside of his job, I dont think it should be up to his employer to punish him. Do you get what im saying

Fitzgerald11
08-02-2007, 03:54 PM
It goes to show you how serious Goodell is about the conduct policy. Sure it sucks for Thurman, but he'll hopefully learn. He played very well as a rookie.

NGSeiler
08-02-2007, 04:00 PM
If he is doing everything right, has dealt with his alcohol problems, done charitable work, stayed out of trouble, met the requirements, he should be re-instated and I dont think 1 missed meeting can change all that.

But it would seem he didn't stay out of trouble, nor did he meet the requirements. Missing the meeting means he's not meeting the requirements of his probation, and not meeting the requirements of his probation puts him in trouble with the law. So yeah, it would appear a missed meeting actually does change all of that.

On another note, missing a meeting with the PO is technically criminal, yes, but it is not a criminal thing by nature. We're not talking about him engaging in an activity that puts other people at risk or in harms way (DUI, assault, etc) or something self-destructive (substance abuse, etc)....were talking about missing a meeting.

Again, I don't think Goodell draws distinctions between which probation violations are okay and which are not, nor should he in the case of someone seeking reinstatement from a year suspension IMO. There shouldn't be any violations for a guy trying to prove he's ready to return to the league.

If someone not on probation misses a meeting with their boss or something like that

...okay, but we're not talking about someone not on probation. Thurman was, which is why this is an issue. What happens to people who aren't on probation seems rather irrelevant to me.

But if he misses a meeting for something outside of his job, I dont think it should be up to his employer to punish him.

But it is up to his employer when said employer has a policy related to your off-the-job conduct.

amag
08-02-2007, 04:36 PM
players who don't have respect for the game should not be allowed to play anyways.

TheChampIsHere
08-02-2007, 05:08 PM
Im saying since he got into troubles, hes had to do A LOT of stuff, Ive been through some of the processes myself and Im sure Thurman is having to do a lot more than I did.....and if he has been doing everything right except he missed one meeting for whateve reason he has, as long as it wasnt that he was too bust drinking or getting high or something, then its not fair to be that hard on him. Our legal system is not gonna be that hard on him, theyre not gonna throw him back in jail or put him on probation an extra year or anything as long as he shows up and explains why he missed it and apologize and handles it right. Why should the NFL be that tough on him.

Just think about what kind of standard you are setting where you miss an entire season and have your career pretty much go down the toilet based on missing one meeting with your PO. Thats just ridiculous.

NGSeiler
08-02-2007, 05:42 PM
then its not fair to be that hard on him.

We disagree then. I think someone who had his sentence reduced from 90 days in jail to two years probation and seemingly can't go a mere two months without violating that probation reaps what he sows. And that, IMO, is quite fair.

Just think about what kind of standard you are setting

Yes, heaven forbid we set NFL players to the standard of complying with the terms of their probation. :rolleyes:

XxXdragonXxX
08-03-2007, 08:46 AM
ummm no its not a big deal. Maybe something came up, maybe he just spaced out, maybe he got stuck in traffic...



Missing a meeting with your probation officer can land you in jail for the remainder of your original sentence....so yeah, it absolutely IS a big deal.

If he absolutely had to miss his meeting, maybe there was a really big emergency, he should have contacted his probation officer and explained why he couldn't make it. If it was a valid reason, there probably wouldn't have been criminal complaint filed.

PalmerToCJ
08-22-2007, 01:39 PM
It's a slow time for news so I figured I'd post it up, I thought the judge made a good point...

Judge in Odell Thurman Case Blasts NFL For Beer Advertising, Sales

Odell Thurman appeared before a judge this morning for a hearing about his probation violation.

That hearing was continued but the judge in the case, John Burlew, made a statement concerning the NFL and its beer advertisements.

The suspended player missed an appointment with a probation officer in connection with his arrest last year on charges of drunk driving.

Officials say Thurman failed to show up for the meeting just days before he learned the NFL would not reinstate him this season.

In court today, Judge Burlew told Thurman, "It upsets me more than anything else and, primarily with your employer, the National Football League. The allegations are that you had an illegal substance, alcohol, in your body. A substance they advertise and take money from, millions of dollars a year. They're hypocrites. If they are really interested in pursuing this issue, they'd give everybody who went to that stadium and comes out of it a breathalizer, but they won't do it because they want the money."

.....Burlew said if the league really wanted to crack down on alcohol abuse, they would give everybody who left a football stadium a blood alcohol test.

“You don’t like alcohol, take those Budweiser commercials off TV,” Burlew said. “Stop selling alcohol in the stadium.”

Burlew complimented the 23-year-old for now following through with his probation officers

Thurman said after his arrest he spent four months at an in-patient alcohol treatment program followed by out-patient treatment.

NGSeiler
08-23-2007, 04:05 PM
It's a slow time for news so I figured I'd post it up, I thought the judge made a good point...

Sounds more like a local judge trying to get his name in the paper by using his bench as a soap box in a case that's receiving some national coverage. I also disagree with his labeling of alcohol an illegal substance - Thurman wasn't suspended simply for drinking a beer, but rather because he then got behind the wheel with a BAC over twice the legal limit. Thus, I don't think I see much hypocrisy from the NFL.

BigDawg819
08-23-2007, 04:08 PM
If Odell is the reason they stop selling beer at stadiums I will not rest until he ceases to exist!

Flyboy
08-23-2007, 04:33 PM
Godell is a Sith Lord....

Maybe it's just me but I was way too amused by this comment.

NFL2007
08-23-2007, 04:43 PM
Goodell is a hypocrite because Leonard Little killed someone while driving drunk and isn't missing any time because of it. :(

BigDawg819
08-23-2007, 04:50 PM
Goodell is a hypocrite because Leonard Little killed someone while driving drunk and isn't missing any time because of it. :(

Goodell wasn't commish then, maybe do a bit of research befoire speaking. ;)

P-L
08-23-2007, 06:12 PM
I guarantee you if Goodell was commissioner when that happened Little would've got at least a year suspension. Leonard was already punished by Tagliabue, so Goodell isn't going to punish him again.

Mr. Stiller
08-23-2007, 06:30 PM
Sounds more like a local judge trying to get his name in the paper by using his bench as a soap box in a case that's receiving some national coverage. I also disagree with his labeling of alcohol an illegal substance - Thurman wasn't suspended simply for drinking a beer, but rather because he then got behind the wheel with a BAC over twice the legal limit. Thus, I don't think I see much hypocrisy from the NFL.

I think Jared Allens 2 DUI's are pretty convincing.. he not only got busted once, but twice. He's currently facings a mere 4 games.

PalmerToCJ
08-23-2007, 08:35 PM
I think Jared Allens 2 DUI's are pretty convincing.. he not only got busted once, but twice. He's currently facings a mere 4 games.

After suspension it's a mere 2 games, 1 game per DUI.

I don't buy Little not getting anything given the fact that Henry didn't do a thing wrong while Godell was commish.

LonghornsLegend
08-24-2007, 07:24 PM
Missing a meeting with your probation officer can land you in jail for the remainder of your original sentence....so yeah, it absolutely IS a big deal.

took the words right out of my month, you could have a 6 month probation term, for a misdemeanor, but if you miss a PO meeting you WILL end up in jail for 6-12 months, regardless of the reason, or what your on probation for ...thats the way normal people have to live their life, shouldnt be any different for a millionaire...


i mean yes it sucks, but some people need to ask themselves how important getting re-instated was to thurmann....


if someone told anyone on this board "ill give you a contract for 10 million dollars, if you show up for a few meetings on time, and do a couple charity events", you would be breaking your neck to make sure it was done, and showing up an hr early if you had to, because that to us would mean alot...


obviously it wasnt too important to him, because if so he would of made sure he finished ALL of his requirements with no problems

BigDawg819
08-24-2007, 07:46 PM
took the words right out of my month, you could have a 6 month probation term, for a misdemeanor, but if you miss a PO meeting you WILL end up in jail for 6-12 months, regardless of the reason, or what your on probation for ...thats the way normal people have to live their life, shouldnt be any different for a millionaire...

You certainty is noble but misguided. People can miss meetings with PO's and not go to jail, thats at the discretion of the PO.

NGSeiler
08-24-2007, 07:46 PM
I think Jared Allens 2 DUI's are pretty convincing..

Convincing of what?

I don't buy Little not getting anything given the fact that Henry didn't do a thing wrong while Godell was commish.

Little was suspended for eight games in 1999. Are you going to suspend him AGAIN retroactively? Doesn't make sense to punish him twice for one incident that happened nine years ago.

PalmerToCJ
08-24-2007, 09:01 PM
Little was suspended for eight games in 1999. Are you going to suspend him AGAIN retroactively? Doesn't make sense to punish him twice for one incident that happened nine years ago.

Henry was suspended 4 games last season then commited no other stupid crimes and was suspended another 8.

NGSeiler
08-24-2007, 10:17 PM
Henry was suspended 4 games last season then commited no other stupid crimes and was suspended another 8.

According to KFFL, Henry was suspended for two games last October after pleading guilty to a concealed weapons charge a month before. He then pleaded guilty to reckless operation of a car in January '07, and was subsequently suspended again in April. So, I don't see your point, as it does not appear he was being suspended twice for one incident.

BigDawg819
08-24-2007, 11:09 PM
Henry was suspended 4 games last season then commited no other stupid crimes and was suspended another 8.

Now I'm not a Henry or a Bengal fan but his problem is the fact that he doesn't get it. He still gets in trouble and hasn't seemed to grow up. NFL N had certain players record events during training camp and TJ had one and theres a part in a WR's meeting with Henry throwing up gang signs. That shows that he just doesn't get it and I won't be sad when he ultimately winds up kicked out of the league. Its sad for the franchise because the kid does have talent and they seem to be trying to help him but him just like Pacman just don't seem to get it.