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SterlingSharpe
12-30-2006, 04:35 PM
We all know that the Texans should not have taken Mario Williams with the #1 overall pick, with 2 truely special SKILL players in the draft.

But should they have taken the Heisman Sensation Reggie BUSH who some compare to, well, a lot of great ones, or should they have dealt DAVID CARR (to Miami, Oak, Min) for a high pick and then taken VINCE YOUNG and sold out every seat in the house?

BUSH or VINCE?

Remember, even with Leinart, Jarrett, etc. Bush lost to Vince as VY singlehandedly beat USC. Of course, Vince is now 8-2 I think as a starter in the NFL with 6 straight wins, for a team that was 4-12 last season.

VINCE or BUSH?

Jango
12-30-2006, 04:42 PM
I think they made the right decision by taking Mario. Maybe they shouldn't have taken him at #1 but Williams was the right pick for the team.

There, I said it.

Hurricane Ditka
12-30-2006, 04:47 PM
They should have picked D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

SterlingSharpe
12-30-2006, 04:48 PM
Jango,

Fair enough amigo.
Someone else didn't have the same balls as you though. I see 2 votes for Mario, and only you admitted it.

More later.....

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-30-2006, 04:52 PM
I voted Mario. Mario is a VERY rare DE prospect with his amazing combination of speed and size. He's got Peppers potential, except he's even bigger. They also just resigned Carr, and even though he's looking like a bust now, he was just a guy missing a line. His line still sucks but most people are sold he's a bust. But even with VY, they're in the AFC South, and in order to win that division, you gotta beat the Colts. And it's very difficult to beat them in a shootout, and as the Chargers, Steelers and Pats demonstrated, to beat the Colts, pressure Peyton Manning.

12-30-2006, 04:56 PM
Mario Williams and the reasons why:

1. Reggie Bush can not run between the tackles and does not fit the ZBS in hindsight (and he never did).
2. DE is a bigger need than the QB position and Houston lacks elite defensive talent.
3. Mario Williams has just as much upside as Vince Young and Reggie Bush.
4. In a division where you must stop the Colts offense if you want to win the division. This has not been done yet and drafting Mario Williams would be a big help.
5. Vince Young while he has made great runs is still very inconsistent when throwing the ball and still shows bad mechanics, but he is getting better.


That's all I can think of and that is more reasons imo than drafting Bush or Vince Young.

SterlingSharpe
12-30-2006, 04:56 PM
Interesting early results...... would be fun to re-visit this one in 3 years and re-read everyone's stances.

If I was Houston, I would have gotten a late #1 pick in the draft from Miami for David Carr and would have taken Vince Young. Besides the fact that he is a pure winner, he also MIGHT take the game to new heights.
Oh, and I do care about the people of Houston and they love Vince. The dude is the king of Houston... I don't see how you can overlook the cities love for the guy. And he beat Leinart/Bush by himself, and beat Ohio State last year, Michigan the year before.... the guy is unreal.

Time will tell....

scar988
12-30-2006, 04:56 PM
they made the right choice in MArio. Bush doesn't fit the ZBS and they didn't know that Young was going to bomb. in that respect Mario was the best choice fro the get go.

SterlingSharpe
12-30-2006, 05:00 PM
To be drafted ahead of those two special offensive guys, and be the #1 overall pick as a DE, you better be special, a once-in-a-decade player.
A Bruce Smith, Julius Peppers type.

Correct me if I'm wrong but those guys won every defensive award their final collegiate season, yet Mario didn't even win his conference defensive player of the year award. I think he was 3rd or 4th place in the ACC for that conference award.

I know some people get hung up on measurables, size, speed on the track, but if this guy didn't even dominate the ACC offensive linemen, why would you think he's gonna be another Bruce Smith or Peppers?

Fair question?
Results on the field are much more important that time trials.

njx9
12-30-2006, 05:03 PM
I know some people get hung up on measurables, size, speed on the track, but if this guy didn't even dominate the ACC offensive linemen, why would you think he's gonna be another Bruce Smith or Peppers?


you have heard of things like "potential" and "coaching" right? :roll:

ks_perfection
12-30-2006, 05:07 PM
I know some people get hung up on measurables, size, speed on the track, but if this guy didn't even dominate the ACC offensive linemen, why would you think he's gonna be another Bruce Smith or Peppers?

Fair question?
Results on the field are much more important that time trials.

Reggie Bush's rushing results are bad, he's averaging 3.6 yards a carry. Thats worse than most teams backups, Im pretty sure Marios sack totals arent'lower than most backups in the NFL.

njx9
12-30-2006, 05:09 PM
mario. defense was a massive need and realistically, DE is a much tougher position to fill with a potentially elite player.

then again, you've probably completely overlooked his on-field production this season (OP). or you think the texans had a stud defense? or that you don't need a good defense to be a good team?

it's also easy to say you would've gotten X from team Y for a certain player, but i don't buy for a second that miami would've given up a first for carr, given that they only gave up a second for a former 3 time pro bowl player.

it's also incredibly presumptuous and stupid to believe that "we all know the texans should not have taken ...." moreso when you follow that up by saying they should have taken vince and sold out every seat in the hosue. funny, they've already been doing that for a while. "Counting preseason contests, the Texans have played to 30 consecutive sellouts and set a team record in 2004 with 565,192 fans during the regular season, an average of 70,649 per game" - http://www.houstontexans.com/tickets/history.php

so far, the only reasonable thing you've said was that houston loved vince, which is, quite simply, a stupid reason to take a player.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-30-2006, 05:15 PM
Mario's owning this poll right now.

Jango
12-30-2006, 05:16 PM
I know some people get hung up on measurables, size, speed on the track, but if this guy didn't even dominate the ACC offensive linemen, why would you think he's gonna be another Bruce Smith or Peppers?

Fair question?
Results on the field are much more important that time trials.

Reggie Bush's rushing results are bad, he's averaging 3.6 yards a carry. Thats worse than most teams backups, Im pretty sure Marios sack totals arent'lower than most backups in the NFL.

That's not fair, look at the Bush as a reciever, return man etc. It's not fair to just look at him as a RB, of which he has improved as the season went on. But let's not get bogged down on Bush, this is about Williams.

HawkeyeFan
12-30-2006, 05:21 PM
HawkeyeFan votes for Mario

12-30-2006, 05:22 PM
Lets also not forget that it takes more time to develop as a DE than a RB (and maybe even QB) so I think Mario hasn't even reached his potential at all this season.

Jango
12-30-2006, 05:24 PM
Added to that, Mario has been playing with an injury for the majority of the season, a foot injury which has hampered him big time.

And for anyone who brings up the VY OT TD run against Houston, take another look at that play and in the top see the immense amount of holding on Williams.

SterlingSharpe
12-30-2006, 05:26 PM
So Marion has improved the Texans more than Bush has the Saints?

Jango
12-30-2006, 05:32 PM
So Marion has improved the Texans more than Bush has the Saints?

That's not the question that should be asked. Would Bush have made the same impact for the Texans that he has done for the Saints? That should be the question you should ask and honestly, I think the answer is no and that is why I believe they were right in taking Williams.

SterlingSharpe
12-30-2006, 05:33 PM
Interesting... so based on these results so far, the Texans do not deserve any criticism of the pick.

I can tell you one thing: I still remember taking Tony Mandarich ahead of Barry and Deion, and Derrick Thomas. The experts at the time said Tony was so strong, that he had natural ability not seen before, but it might take time for him to dominate........

Go_Eli
12-30-2006, 05:36 PM
Mario Williams and DeMeco Ryans will be the cornerstones of that defense for years. Williams was the right pick, maybe at the wrong spot.

njx9
12-30-2006, 05:37 PM
Interesting... so based on these results so far, the Texans do not deserve any criticism of the pick.

I can tell you one thing: I still remember taking Tony Mandarich ahead of Barry and Deion, and Derrick Thomas. The experts at the time said Tony was so strong, that he had natural ability not seen before, but it might take time for him to dominate........

so you're calling mario williams one of the biggest busts of all time and a steroid user? :roll: great comparison.

i remember a guy named ryan leaf. he sounds a lot like vince young.

ks_perfection
12-30-2006, 05:43 PM
ks_perfection wrote:
Quote:
I know some people get hung up on measurables, size, speed on the track, but if this guy didn't even dominate the ACC offensive linemen, why would you think he's gonna be another Bruce Smith or Peppers?

Fair question?
Results on the field are much more important that time trials.


Reggie Bush's rushing results are bad, he's averaging 3.6 yards a carry. Thats worse than most teams backups, Im pretty sure Marios sack totals arent'lower than most backups in the NFL.


That's not fair, look at the Bush as a reciever, return man etc. It's not fair to just look at him as a RB, of which he has improved as the season went on. But let's not get bogged down on Bush, this is about Williams.

I know its not entirely fair, but if Bush had gone to the Texans he would have been the feature back. Bush would have been forced to run alot more and had less time to be a receiver. He wouldn't have done the extra stuff he does in NO.

LSU Man
12-30-2006, 05:44 PM
I will say i was shocked that Houston didn't take Bush but looking at it now Mario was the right pick. I don't think they should have taken him with the number one pick though. Mario will improve with time he may not be Peppers next year but he will improve.


If the Texans had taken Bush or Young we would all be saying how much of a bust they are.

I voted Super Mario

dre1614
12-30-2006, 05:51 PM
I will say i was shocked that Houston didn't take Bush but looking at it now Mario was the right pick. I don't think they should have taken him with the number one pick though. Mario will improve with time he may not be Peppers next year but he will improve.


If the Texans had taken Bush or Young we would all be saying how much of a bust they are.

I voted Super Mario

Superman cant be a bust, he wins wherever he goes

Gribble
12-30-2006, 05:53 PM
Interesting... so based on these results so far, the Texans do not deserve any criticism of the pick.

I can tell you one thing: I still remember taking Tony Mandarich ahead of Barry and Deion, and Derrick Thomas. The experts at the time said Tony was so strong, that he had natural ability not seen before, but it might take time for him to dominate........

so you're calling mario williams one of the biggest busts of all time and a steroid user? :roll: great comparison.

i remember a guy named ryan leaf. he sounds a lot like vince young.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

bearfan
12-30-2006, 05:56 PM
I said Mario was the right pick. It is hard to find a prospect like williams, and even though Reggie and VY may be great players, those positions area little easier to find than a great DE IMO

Shiver
12-30-2006, 05:57 PM
I think Bush would've been a bad pick for the Texans. He isn't what they wanted, he said as much pre-draft, they never showed interest in him. A lot of people thought that was a smoke-screen to get trade offers, until Adam Schefter reported that they actually weren't that interested in Reggie Bush. That scheme doesn't fit him, the situation wouldn't fit him. Reggie Bush is in a optimal offense for his talents in New Orleans. But if he's only averaging 3.6 YPC in New Orleans what would he be doing in Houston? Especially since he is the anti-ZBS runner. Instead of cutting back, Reggie bounces everything outside.

In hindsight, I think Vince Young should've been the pick. However, at the time, David Carr was never given a fair chance. Well before the draft they extended Carr, so Young was never a legitimate option. Although, Carr's struggles this year, despite having a better scheme and wide receivers make this look like a mistake. Had they not extended him, I think Young would've been the pick.

Mario Williams has phenomenal potential, his one weakness was he was raw. He's shown glimpses of greatness. One more training camp, the Texans adding a interior force, he will be a good one. Thus, considering Young was never an option. I think that Mario Williams fits the Texans more than Reggie Bush would have. Mario Williams, as per 1/4 of NFL teams, including the Cowboys for one, had Williams as the top overall prospect in the draft.

SterlingSharpe
12-30-2006, 06:02 PM
Oh really? Ryan Leaf could run past 11 guys on defense and score a TD?

Did Ryan ever lead his team to 6 straight wins? Actually how about 1 straight win?

Again, why was Mario only voted the 4th best defensive player in the ACC if he's so great? Do you realize that? He did not dominate in college like Julius Peppers did at UNC or Bruce Smith at Virginia Tech. This was a classic reach. Classic. Sam Bowie-like.

dcarey20
12-30-2006, 06:06 PM
they should have taken maurice jones-drew 8)

Shiver
12-30-2006, 06:07 PM
Again, why was Mario only voted the 4th best defensive player in the ACC if he's so great?

Where is Mike Hass or Greg Eslinger in the NFL?

He did not dominate in college like Julius Peppers did at UNC or Bruce Smith at Virginia Tech.

I don't know about Smith, but he had almost the same amount of sacks as Peppers, with more Tackles for Loss.

This was a classic reach. Classic.

Which is why at least six teams had Williams number one on their boards, according to Ron Wolf, former reknowned GM of the Packers. One of those teams were the Dallas Cowboys, but Bill Parcells doesn't know anything about football like you do.. :roll:

Sam Bowie-like.

Enough with the Sam Bowie nonsense. That comparison makes no sense what so ever. Since;

1. His career was derailed by injuries, thus to say he failed is unfair.
2. Clyde Drexler was already in Portland, and an all-star at Jordan's position.
3. No one knew Michael Jordan would be like that, Dean Smith's system concealed Jordan's potential.
4. That is basketball, this is football.
5. Reggie Bush has no shot of being anything near Jordan great.

NYGibril28
12-30-2006, 06:10 PM
Mario


You can't judge a pick after 1 year. Mario is a special player at a need position for Houston. Houston had no idea Domanick Davis would go on IR and they'd have to go the season with Wali Lundy(although at times impressive) and Ron Dayne. They need to stabilize the O-Line before they do something about Carr.


Edit: I actually still think they should have taken D-Brick.

12-30-2006, 06:12 PM
So Marion has improved the Texans more than Bush has the Saints?

That's not the question that should be asked. Would Bush have made the same impact for the Texans that he has done for the Saints? That should be the question you should ask and honestly, I think the answer is no and that is why I believe they were right in taking Williams.

They have Deuce to run between the tackles. New Orleans needed an explosive player and Bush was the best pick for them. Sean Payton uses him very well and Bush is surrounded by great talent.

12-30-2006, 06:12 PM
Mario


You can't judge a pick after 1 year. Mario is a special player at a need position for Houston. Houston had no idea Domanick Davis would go on IR and they'd have to go the season with Wali Lundy(although at times impressive) and Ron Dayne. They need to stabilize the O-Line before they do something about Carr.

Exactly, good point.

Also, look for Houston if they don't draft Adrian Peterson in round 1 (if they have a chance to) to go after Kenny Irons or Lorenzo Booker in round 2.

Shiver
12-30-2006, 06:14 PM
If you think Mario Williams is a bad pick, or reach, then you think Bill Parcells knows less about football than you do. Jerry Jones on Bryant Gumble's HBO show said that the Cowboys, under Parcells, had Williams #1 on their board.

Case closed. :lol:

12-30-2006, 06:14 PM
I think Bush would've been a bad pick for the Texans. He isn't what they wanted, he said as much pre-draft, they never showed interest in him. A lot of people thought that was a smoke-screen to get trade offers, until Adam Schefter reported that they actually weren't that interested in Reggie Bush. That scheme doesn't fit him, the situation wouldn't fit him. Reggie Bush is in a optimal offense for his talents in New Orleans. But if he's only averaging 3.6 YPC in New Orleans what would he be doing in Houston? Especially since he is the anti-ZBS runner. Instead of cutting back, Reggie bounces everything outside.

In hindsight, I think Vince Young should've been the pick. However, at the time, David Carr was never given a fair chance. Well before the draft they extended Carr, so Young was never a legitimate option. Although, Carr's struggles this year, despite having a better scheme and wide receivers make this look like a mistake. Had they not extended him, I think Young would've been the pick.

Mario Williams has phenomenal potential, his one weakness was he was raw. He's shown glimpses of greatness. One more training camp, the Texans adding a interior force, he will be a good one. Thus, considering Young was never an option. I think that Mario Williams fits the Texans more than Reggie Bush would have. Mario Williams, as per 1/4 of NFL teams, including the Cowboys for one, had Williams as the top overall prospect in the draft.

Actually his one big flaw was that he takes plays off, not rawness. But I agree with 99.9% of what you say.

njx9
12-30-2006, 06:14 PM
Oh really? Ryan Leaf could run past 11 guys on defense and score a TD?

had vince young done that in the nfl in march? i forgot.

Did Ryan ever lead his team to 6 straight wins? Actually how about 1 straight win?

thanks for letting me know you haven't followed football very long. he actually won his first two starts. further, he was one of the best QB prospects ever, good enough to make the colts think twice about taking peyton manning. then again, i would've figured someone throwing tony mandarich's name around would you know, know that.

Again, why was Mario only voted the 4th best defensive player in the ACC if he's so great? Do you realize that? He did not dominate in college like Julius Peppers did at UNC or Bruce Smith at Virginia Tech. This was a classic reach. Classic. Sam Bowie-like.

how's danny wuerffel's career? jason white? eric crouch? they were all voted as the best players in the NATION. so they must be future hall of famers, right? get. a. grip.

Shiver
12-30-2006, 06:17 PM
I think Bush would've been a bad pick for the Texans. He isn't what they wanted, he said as much pre-draft, they never showed interest in him. A lot of people thought that was a smoke-screen to get trade offers, until Adam Schefter reported that they actually weren't that interested in Reggie Bush. That scheme doesn't fit him, the situation wouldn't fit him. Reggie Bush is in a optimal offense for his talents in New Orleans. But if he's only averaging 3.6 YPC in New Orleans what would he be doing in Houston? Especially since he is the anti-ZBS runner. Instead of cutting back, Reggie bounces everything outside.

In hindsight, I think Vince Young should've been the pick. However, at the time, David Carr was never given a fair chance. Well before the draft they extended Carr, so Young was never a legitimate option. Although, Carr's struggles this year, despite having a better scheme and wide receivers make this look like a mistake. Had they not extended him, I think Young would've been the pick.

Mario Williams has phenomenal potential, his one weakness was he was raw. He's shown glimpses of greatness. One more training camp, the Texans adding a interior force, he will be a good one. Thus, considering Young was never an option. I think that Mario Williams fits the Texans more than Reggie Bush would have. Mario Williams, as per 1/4 of NFL teams, including the Cowboys for one, had Williams as the top overall prospect in the draft.

Actually his one big flaw was that he takes plays off, not rawness. But I agree with 99.9% of what you say.

He took plays off early in the year, late in the year he was a beast. Which to me, showed that he still wasn't ready. He's only 21 years old and growing into his body type.

NYGibril28
12-30-2006, 06:21 PM
any1 else find it weird that Charlie Casserly resigned as GM almost immediately after the draft? I'm not implying that he is trying to ruin the franchise, it's just a little odd

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-30-2006, 06:22 PM
Oh really? Ryan Leaf could run past 11 guys on defense and score a TD?

Did Ryan ever lead his team to 6 straight wins? Actually how about 1 straight win?

Again, why was Mario only voted the 4th best defensive player in the ACC if he's so great? Do you realize that? He did not dominate in college like Julius Peppers did at UNC or Bruce Smith at Virginia Tech. This was a classic reach. Classic. Sam Bowie-like.

Sam Bowie was an All-American. And the Blazers kinda had a HOF player at the 2 guard position they drafted the year before... although that gets lost in history. It would be like Carson Palmer getting injured for the season in game 1 next year and them drafting Jamarcus Russell first overall.

eacantdraft
12-30-2006, 06:28 PM
Reggie Bush could play WR for Houston like he does for New Orleans. That would have taken the double team off Andre Johnson.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-30-2006, 06:37 PM
Reggie Bush could play WR for Houston like he does for New Orleans. That would have taken the double team off Andre Johnson.

Hadn't they signed Moulds at the time though? I think they viewed him as the guy to take heat off Andre.

SterlingSharpe
12-30-2006, 06:42 PM
"Bill Parcells said this or that"....
Ron Wolf said this or that....

First of all, these guys usually like as a smokescreen.

Second of all, Ron Wolf is the same GENIUS who in 1998 selected another DE from the state of NC over WR Randy Moss. He has since claimed that it was his biggest mistake ever. But again, me and my brother who wanted Moss taken that day know nothing about football, because we do not have a GM postion like Wolf did.

Wolf is also the same GM who selected another DE, Jamal Reynolds from Florida State, ahead of Marcus Stroud. Wolf has a terrible track record judging first round talent. He was pathetic with his 1st round picks but did well in the mid rounds.

But that Jamal Reynolds pick cost the Packers a chance at another Super Bowl because this team was close a few years back, despite getting NOTHING out of that high pick.

Shiver
12-30-2006, 06:46 PM
With the Raiders, he took part in drafting such notable players as Art Shell, Gene Upshaw, Ken Stabler, and Jack Tatum, all of whom would play for the Super Bowl 11 Championship team in 1976, and later such players as Howie Long, Marcus Allen, and Matt Millen, all of the Super Bowl 18 Championship team, the then-Los Angeles Raiders .

With the Green Bay Packers, he hired head coach Mike Holmgren and traded for then Atlanta Falcons backup quarterback Brett Favre. Wolf also signed free-agent Reggie White, bringing in a team leader and defensive superstar. This signing, in NFL free agency's first year, also made Green Bay a more desirable destination for future potential free agents.

Over his nine-year term as GM, the Packers compiled a 92-52 record, good for a .639 winning percentage, second in the NFL over that span to the San Francisco 49ers. The Packers won Super Bowl XXXI against the New England Patriots, lost in Super Bowl XXXII to the Denver Broncos, and made the playoffs six straight times.

Yeah, he has a horrible track record. :lol: :roll:

As for Bill Parcells, that info came out after the draft. So the Cowboys saying Mario Williams was number one on their boards definitely wasn't a smoke screen.

12-30-2006, 07:14 PM
I think Bush would've been a bad pick for the Texans. He isn't what they wanted, he said as much pre-draft, they never showed interest in him. A lot of people thought that was a smoke-screen to get trade offers, until Adam Schefter reported that they actually weren't that interested in Reggie Bush. That scheme doesn't fit him, the situation wouldn't fit him. Reggie Bush is in a optimal offense for his talents in New Orleans. But if he's only averaging 3.6 YPC in New Orleans what would he be doing in Houston? Especially since he is the anti-ZBS runner. Instead of cutting back, Reggie bounces everything outside.

In hindsight, I think Vince Young should've been the pick. However, at the time, David Carr was never given a fair chance. Well before the draft they extended Carr, so Young was never a legitimate option. Although, Carr's struggles this year, despite having a better scheme and wide receivers make this look like a mistake. Had they not extended him, I think Young would've been the pick.

Mario Williams has phenomenal potential, his one weakness was he was raw. He's shown glimpses of greatness. One more training camp, the Texans adding a interior force, he will be a good one. Thus, considering Young was never an option. I think that Mario Williams fits the Texans more than Reggie Bush would have. Mario Williams, as per 1/4 of NFL teams, including the Cowboys for one, had Williams as the top overall prospect in the draft.

Actually his one big flaw was that he takes plays off, not rawness. But I agree with 99.9% of what you say.

He took plays off early in the year, late in the year he was a beast. Which to me, showed that he still wasn't ready. He's only 21 years old and growing into his body type.

I didn't say that I said that scouts said that. I didn't think that was a big concern but that WAS the main concern among scouts.

Philliez01
12-30-2006, 08:34 PM
"Bill Parcells said this or that"....
Ron Wolf said this or that....

First of all, these guys usually like as a smokescreen.

Second of all, Ron Wolf is the same GENIUS who in 1998 selected another DE from the state of NC over WR Randy Moss. He has since claimed that it was his biggest mistake ever. But again, me and my brother who wanted Moss taken that day know nothing about football, because we do not have a GM postion like Wolf did.

Wolf is also the same GM who selected another DE, Jamal Reynolds from Florida State, ahead of Marcus Stroud. Wolf has a terrible track record judging first round talent. He was pathetic with his 1st round picks but did well in the mid rounds.

But that Jamal Reynolds pick cost the Packers a chance at another Super Bowl because this team was close a few years back, despite getting NOTHING out of that high pick.

It is really easy in 2006, nearly 2007, to look back and see the blunders then make statements like that. At the time of the draft, unless you are a Jets fan, most picks seem pretty good and you see how well they develop in October. The fact of the matter is, you can easily look back and say "The Eagles took Freddie Mitchell ahead of Chad Johnson and Steve Smith" but at the time of the draft, you'd be crazy to suggest that they do it vica versa.

Some prospects just don't pan out while others do. Sam Bowie was probably projected to be an insane player in his day and I highly doubt anyone thought "Michael Jordan will change NBA history, forever". It's just the nature of the business.

King Rhabuf
12-30-2006, 08:39 PM
reggie bush wouldnt be doing crap for that team

mario was the right pick

vince young will come down to earth, that team has been getting really lucky every game

jetsfan3
12-30-2006, 08:52 PM
Traded down and taken Jones-Drew, Colston, Vince Young and still have extra picks.

The Unseen
12-30-2006, 08:58 PM
If you think Mario Williams is a bad pick, or reach, then you think Bill Parcells knows less about football than you do. Jerry Jones on Bryant Gumble's HBO show said that the Cowboys, under Parcells, had Williams #1 on their board.

Case closed. :lol:

Boy, they struck gold by reaching for Bobby Carpenter, eh?

draftguru151
12-30-2006, 09:10 PM
If you think Mario Williams is a bad pick, or reach, then you think Bill Parcells knows less about football than you do. Jerry Jones on Bryant Gumble's HBO show said that the Cowboys, under Parcells, had Williams #1 on their board.

Case closed. :lol:

Boy, they struck gold by reaching for Bobby Carpenter, eh?

He didn't look that terrible when I saw him in his limited PT. I'd take him over Allen any day.

Go Cowboys
12-30-2006, 09:26 PM
I voted Mario, why? because at the time it was the perfect pick for them, they didn't know that Dom Davis would get hurt and kill their running game, they didn't know that Bush would get much PT for them and he didn't wanna sign before the draft when they wanted to. Mario is a great End who happened to be the #1 pick but if he hadn't have been and had gone #2 and the Saints had taken Bush #1 then Mario would look like a much better player,

Also DeMeco Ryans is having a great year correct? Without Williams there to take up blockers maybe Ryans doesn't do what he does, maybe the Texans don't beat the teams they beat, and they have the #1 pick this year? What do they do then? Reggie Bush they would have but they would have gotten destroyed on D so then what do they do take Gaines Adams? Joe Thomas? Quinn? CJ? would be more questions this year.

Although i still belive D'Brick should have been the pick

comahan
12-30-2006, 09:28 PM
Bush would have been pointless. At the time, we had Domanick Davis at RB. in 04 Davis had 1200 yards, 13 TD's, and 70 catches out of the backfield in 15 games. In 05 he had 1000 yards and 40 catches in 11 games. We also had a Pro Bowl returner in Jerome Mathis. Plus Bush doesn't fit our scheme whatsoever.

Carr had just been re-signed. The thinking was that he could still be an elite QB if he were ever given more than 2 seconds of protection. So taking a QB #1 overall when you had just re-signed your young former #1 overall pick who had never really been given a chance would be pointless as well. Also, nearly everyone had him pegged to not be ready for 3 years or so. Houston is terrible.. we needed help NOW.

We are moving to a 4-3 from a 3-4. Our starting DE's would be Jason Babin and Antwan Peek. We have no true Nose Tackle, and we have a DE is playing UT. We needed D-Line help BADLY. A Mario Williams type of prospect at DE is just as rare (if not more) than an elite RB (who can't run in between the tackles) and can be more important.

Now, I love VY, being from Houston, and being a huge UT fan, he WAS Texas football. I never miss a chance to watch the titans play now. But that doesn't mean he would have been a good pick.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
12-30-2006, 09:44 PM
Everybody talking about how Reggie can't run between the tackles must have stopped watching him in Week 9. He's shown a lot of improvement in that aspect of his game.

Anyway, they needed D'Brick.

The Fat Kid
12-30-2006, 09:50 PM
mario was, is,and will be the right choice for houston.

Shiver
12-30-2006, 10:33 PM
If you think Mario Williams is a bad pick, or reach, then you think Bill Parcells knows less about football than you do. Jerry Jones on Bryant Gumble's HBO show said that the Cowboys, under Parcells, had Williams #1 on their board.

Case closed. :lol:

Boy, they struck gold by reaching for Bobby Carpenter, eh?

We don't know yet. The Cowboys are deep at LB, and I am sure Parcells would like to hold his rookies back on a contender as much as possible. Still, I doubt anyone can make a legitimate case that Parcells cannot evaluate talent.

Terrence Newman
Jason Witten
Bradie James
Julius Jones
Patrick Crayton
Demarcus Ware
Marcus Spears
Marion Barber
Chris Canty


That's a significant chunk of the current Cowboys roster, drafted under Parcells. Not to mention Terry Glenn, who was drafted by Parcells back in the day.

Iamcanadian
12-30-2006, 10:37 PM
Mario Williams and the reasons why:

1. Reggie Bush can not run between the tackles and does not fit the ZBS in hindsight (and he never did).
2. DE is a bigger need than the QB position and Houston lacks elite defensive talent.
3. Mario Williams has just as much upside as Vince Young and Reggie Bush.
4. In a division where you must stop the Colts offense if you want to win the division. This has not been done yet and drafting Mario Williams would be a big help.
5. Vince Young while he has made great runs is still very inconsistent when throwing the ball and still shows bad mechanics, but he is getting better.


That's all I can think of and that is more reasons imo than drafting Bush or Vince Young.

Brillent except Bush's team will be in the playoffs and Tennessee is very close while Houston still stinks and will continue to do so for quite a few more years.

Shiver
12-30-2006, 10:37 PM
Everybody talking about how Reggie can't run between the tackles must have stopped watching him in Week 9. He's shown a lot of improvement in that aspect of his game.


He's improved, but still, he isn't what the Texans wanted in a back. The Texans ZBS relies upon decisive cut-backs, something Bush has struggled with at times. It's also a scheme that never required a top-tier talent. The Texans never showed interest in Bush, he said as much. The Saints are better for Bush to succeed, the Texans added a much needed D-Line talent, it's win-win.

datchapin
12-30-2006, 11:03 PM
Vince Young, just like in college get's all the credit for what the rest of his team is doing. The guy is a great player, but he's not THE reason they've won so many games thus far. Against the Jag's. the Titan's didn't score a touchdown on offense, how can that be attributed to Young? The first time against the Texans the defense had 5 turnover's and a touchdown on ST's. Against the Giants they won on a 60 yd. field goal. True, Young got them there, but sixty yd. field goal. C'mon that's gotta count for something give the kicker some credit. The run in OT against the Texan's would have been negated had they called the holding on Williams changing the whole dynamic of that game. Also, it seems everyone forget's that he's working under great coaching which is the real reason that the Titans are winning. If you look at Young's individual stat's they aren't that great and would not necessarily have translated onto the Texan's.

Bush isn't making more of an impact on the Saints than their seventh rd. pick, while the guy has done well. He wouldn't have had the same result's in Houston. Also, you negate the impact of Bree's and Payton's coaching if you say Bush is the reason for them having such a successful season.

Mario on the other hand is playing through an injury and still having an impact. He doesn't depend on anybody else to get his. This is the difference between him and the other two. Bush and Young depend on the line in order to have success. Mario is the person our defense depends on in order to have success. Mario's stat's aren't indicative of his impact, occupying two people on the offense in different manners don't get stat's. Mario is having a great season, but it's all negated in the #'s because guess what people don't run at him that much. With our porous secondary it's never hard for the opposing QB to get rid of the ball that much quicker. Mario is the best option for this team and has helped in my opinion more than either of the other guys would have. If it weren't for Mario, Demeco wouldn't be in the running for DROY.

njx9
12-30-2006, 11:25 PM
i'd say the point has been proven.

12-30-2006, 11:28 PM
They made the right pick.

RCAChainGang
12-30-2006, 11:30 PM
They made the right pick.

I agree Reggie wouldnt help um and Carr is a good QB like it or not.

bakdafucup
12-31-2006, 10:22 AM
without doubt mario. he has been hurt this year and admits he cant take plays/games off like he did in college. but as a nc state student the past few years...i saw him dominate like no other player ive ever seen at times. there are games...generally big time games...where he was unblockable. he is the most physically gifted DE ever. it would be as if you put reggie bushes speed in ron daynes body. when it all comes together for mario, this will be one of the more praised picks in the draft history.

Tubby
12-31-2006, 10:55 AM
My name is Tubby Johnson-Smith, and I voted for Mario.

ks_perfection
12-31-2006, 11:04 AM
Trading down to slots 2-4 would have been good, taking Mario if he was around and Ferguson if he was taken. Of course this requires that a team was willing to make a decent offer to move up.

12-31-2006, 11:07 AM
Trading down to slots 2-4 would have been good, taking Mario if he was around and Ferguson if he was taken. Of course this requires that a team was willing to make a decent offer to move up.

They tried to trade down, no one was interested in their price.

Ewing
12-31-2006, 11:40 AM
They should have traded the pick and then drafted Ferguson and a boatload of other offensive linemen. That was their biggest need and they didn't address it until the third round. That entire offensive line is a joke; you could put five stacks of hay up there and it would do a better job of protecting Carr.

rainbeaukid2
12-31-2006, 11:51 AM
out of those 3, thye should have taken Mario because he is the only one that filled a need. they had a perennial 1,000 yd. rusher in domanick davis, and they had a former #1 draft pick in david carr.

stevo3883
01-01-2007, 05:51 PM
Vince Young, just like in college get's all the credit for what the rest of his team is doing. The guy is a great player, but he's not THE reason they've won so many games thus far. Against the Jag's. the Titan's didn't score a touchdown on offense, how can that be attributed to Young? The first time against the Texans the defense had 5 turnover's and a touchdown on ST's. Against the Giants they won on a 60 yd. field goal. True, Young got them there, but sixty yd. field goal. C'mon that's gotta count for something give the kicker some credit. The run in OT against the Texan's would have been negated had they called the holding on Williams changing the whole dynamic of that game. Also, it seems everyone forget's that he's working under great coaching which is the real reason that the Titans are winning. If you look at Young's individual stat's they aren't that great and would not necessarily have translated onto the Texan's.

Bush isn't making more of an impact on the Saints than their seventh rd. pick, while the guy has done well. He wouldn't have had the same result's in Houston. Also, you negate the impact of Bree's and Payton's coaching if you say Bush is the reason for them having such a successful season.

Mario on the other hand is playing through an injury and still having an impact. He doesn't depend on anybody else to get his. This is the difference between him and the other two. Bush and Young depend on the line in order to have success. Mario is the person our defense depends on in order to have success. Mario's stat's aren't indicative of his impact, occupying two people on the offense in different manners don't get stat's. Mario is having a great season, but it's all negated in the #'s because guess what people don't run at him that much. With our porous secondary it's never hard for the opposing QB to get rid of the ball that much quicker. Mario is the best option for this team and has helped in my opinion more than either of the other guys would have. If it weren't for Mario, Demeco wouldn't be in the running for DROY.

I have watched every play from Mario this season, and right now, he is not even close to as good as you make him out to be. His "double-teaming" is a tackle blocking him, and occasionaly a TE will chip in. Mario gets stood up at the line on a consistant basis, and rarely creates pressure because all he does is try to bull rush.

If he could develope some pass-rushing moves he could be good, but right now his move is to run straight into the tackle, and it makes him a $54 million roadblock.

Flyboy
01-01-2007, 06:00 PM
*yawns* Have fun with Mario Williams, Texans.

*points to sig*

cunningham06
01-01-2007, 06:46 PM
Mario was the right choice at the time over those two, I personally wanted D'Brick. If we can bring in a legit DE to play across from Mario we will then see how good he really is because he is getting absolutely no help.

Tubby
01-01-2007, 07:11 PM
Vince Young, just like in college get's all the credit for what the rest of his team is doing. The guy is a great player, but he's not THE reason they've won so many games thus far. Against the Jag's. the Titan's didn't score a touchdown on offense, how can that be attributed to Young? The first time against the Texans the defense had 5 turnover's and a touchdown on ST's. Against the Giants they won on a 60 yd. field goal. True, Young got them there, but sixty yd. field goal. C'mon that's gotta count for something give the kicker some credit. The run in OT against the Texan's would have been negated had they called the holding on Williams changing the whole dynamic of that game. Also, it seems everyone forget's that he's working under great coaching which is the real reason that the Titans are winning. If you look at Young's individual stat's they aren't that great and would not necessarily have translated onto the Texan's.

This has to be one of the smartest, truest paragraphs ive ever read on NFLDC

L6
01-07-2007, 12:06 AM
of coarse they made the right pick, and the options you put up there are bad, i really believe that if the draft were re-done, reggie bush would go somewhere in the teens, i personally wouldnt draft him there, but he probly would go somewhere in that area

texans definitly made the right choice, theres an argument for young, and an argument for fergeson, but bush doesnt even belong in the discussion, hes not a runningback, maybe as a WR, but hes not a rb

Chucky
01-07-2007, 12:09 AM
It all depends on this years draft if they are able to get AP then they should have taken vince if they could get QUinn or russell then they should have taken BUsh.

WildDude
01-07-2007, 12:32 AM
well i think Young would have been the best pick i mean i know they already have Carr but they can always trade while young is a hometown hero he'd really be great for houston. but because of the fact that they had Carr at the time and Dominick Davis the pick made alot of sense but he really stinks tho

smittyjs
01-07-2007, 12:39 AM
Mario

TH3
01-07-2007, 12:40 AM
Mario Williams

Namy
01-07-2007, 01:15 AM
Reggie Bush. He was the Texans pick before they got butt hurt and took Williams instead. Someone on the first page said Bush wouldn't fit in the ZBS? Are you freaking kidding me??

NickBam
01-07-2007, 02:53 AM
Mario. People have to stop freaking out about players rookie year. Mario is one of the very few talented players on the Texans defense and probably sees a lot of attention because of it. Defense wins championships and the Texans had a little of it.

And can someone inform on what exactly Reggie did that was sooo special this year?

yourfavestoner
01-07-2007, 03:08 AM
Reggie Bush. He was the Texans pick before they got butt hurt and took Williams instead. Someone on the first page said Bush wouldn't fit in the ZBS? Are you freaking kidding me??

The ZBS requires patience, the ability to break arm tackles, and for the runner to not dance. None of those are qualities Reggie Bush has.

jag
01-07-2007, 05:20 AM
Mario. People have to stop freaking out about players rookie year. Mario is one of the very few talented players on the Texans defense and probably sees a lot of attention because of it. Defense wins championships and the Texans had a little of it.

And can someone inform on what exactly Reggie did that was sooo special this year?

I agree completely.

steelersfan43
01-07-2007, 05:54 AM
Mario. People have to stop freaking out about players rookie year. Mario is one of the very few talented players on the Texans defense and probably sees a lot of attention because of it. Defense wins championships and the Texans had a little of it.

And can someone inform on what exactly Reggie did that was sooo special this year?


He goted t3h fotball ands he runded wits it :!:



Mario williams was the right pick...

sweetness34
01-07-2007, 07:59 AM
They should have picked D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

Agreed.

datchapin
01-07-2007, 10:44 AM
First off I'll address a comment by Stevo. You watched every down he played. Then you know the last game he played in full health was the NY Giant's game right. You remember that game, where he blew up the LT and RT to get in Mannin's face. How many DE's own a LT like that? Ever since his injury set in he's been playing through it. He still get's alot of attention he still get's close to the QB remember the last series in the Cleveland game, but he's doing it at maybe 70% of his capacity. Before the injury you could see he was starting to work on technique, but afterwards he couldn't practice so he had to rely on what he knew. Next year if the guy is healthy throughout then you will see a monster on the field.

In general I read this and I gotta say defenses don't get enough love. Look @ Arizona and Indiannapolis. Both teams got all the pieces on offense, yet they aren't really getting anything done if their defense don't step up. Yesterday the Colt's defense really stepped up had they not they would have been crushed. Young and Bush are both helping their team's, but they are just a cog in the machine, neither of them are carrying their side's of the ball, much less their teams. Tommie Harris and Greg Ellis went down and look at how their team's were affected. Can you imagine the Dolphins or Panther's if Pepper's or Taylor weren't there? Same thing with the Texans if Mario wasn't there would Demeco have had the same kind of year? Would our defense have improved the way it did? I don't think so. While I believe it would have still improved I think it wouldn't have impoved to the point where it has. Mario has really helped our defense and without him our whole dynamic on that side of the ball would be differrent.

Bush and Young haven't impacted their team's in the same manner. Young is the beneficiary of a much improved ground game and defense. The Titan's were the youngest team last yr. so obviously they were gonna improve with time. Their defense has been getting better and while Young has done some good things there I would call them ground breaking. Everyone should chill and look at his performance and not the team's record when talking about how he's done as a rookie. Same thing can be said about Bush, he really hasn't had much weight put on his shoulders and only rarely does he show flashes of dominance. Maybe next yr. they'll all be more consistent, but this yr. Mario has had the greatest impact of all of them. People should stop, just stop trying to nit pick the pick and ignore the importance of a solid defense.

01-07-2007, 10:48 AM
We all know that the Texans should not have taken Mario Williams with the #1 overall pick, with 2 truely special SKILL players in the draft.

Because skill players are the most important part of a football team. That's why the Cardinals completely tore up the NFL this year. :roll:

Mario was the right pick.

21ST
01-07-2007, 11:01 AM
It has only been one year and i think mario williams is doing just fine.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-07-2007, 11:12 AM
This thread sure didn't go the way SterlingSharpe expected.

jag
01-07-2007, 11:18 AM
This thread sure didn't go the way SterlingSharpe expected.

But doesn't it make you feel smarter seeing how some people still don't get it?

eazyb81
01-07-2007, 11:22 AM
At the time, I said on here that they were crazy to pass on Bush, and I continue to believe that.

Hurricane Ditka
01-07-2007, 11:25 AM
They should have picked D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

Agreed.That's because I'm an ultra-pimp. But seriously the Texans couldn't be more ******** for not taking Ferguson. They has just switched to the ZBS, and have been looking for a left tackle in ages.

yourfavestoner
01-07-2007, 12:21 PM
This thread sure didn't go the way SterlingSharpe expected.

But doesn't it make you feel smarter seeing how some people still don't get it?

It makes me feel good knowing that I was one of the first people on the Mario Williams bandwagon.

smittyjs
01-07-2007, 12:54 PM
They made the right pick.

I agree Reggie wouldnt help um and Carr is a good QB like it or not.At this moment i disagree.

princefielder28
01-07-2007, 02:44 PM
If I were the Texans I would have drafted Young and Bush before Mario. Reggie is a very blessed individuals and his abilities are seen less than Mario's.

energizerbunny
01-07-2007, 04:47 PM
"
But that Jamal Reynolds pick cost the Packers a chance at another Super Bowl because this team was close a few years back, despite getting NOTHING out of that high pick.


Actaully the packers didn't really lose out too much on that pick because they had KBG emerge into the talent they thought Reynolds would be. So you can't be more wrong when you say that the Reynolds pick cost them a chance at another superbowl.

look at KBG's development it is probally identical to what they expected outta Jamal.


Mario is the right pick for the Texans, because DE is the 3rd most important postion on the field. You can't even begin to harp on Mario because he played almost the entire year last year with a bad foot. You built championships in the trenches. Not with flashy skill postion players

hugegmenfan
01-07-2007, 05:15 PM
I think they made the right decision by taking Mario. Maybe they shouldn't have taken him at #1 but Williams was the right pick for the team.

There, I said it.

Ya i believe they should have traded down at least 2-4 spots and probably still coulda nabbed him because he is a good player but @ #1 will always be regarded as the guy who went before Bush and Young

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-07-2007, 05:28 PM
I think they made the right decision by taking Mario. Maybe they shouldn't have taken him at #1 but Williams was the right pick for the team.

There, I said it.

Ya i believe they should have traded down at least 2-4 spots and probably still coulda nabbed him because he is a good player but @ #1 will always be regarded as the guy who went before Bush and Young


Well Bush hasn't proven much, and could turn out to be nothing more than a Brian Westbrook who can stay healthy. Young still isn't all that great of a passer statistically, and could become a pretty big disappointment. In 3 years, if he's putting up the same numbers he did this year, he'll be considered a bust. Mario could be the next Julius Peppers.

I hate when people use that argument, because if all 3 players turn out great, NOBODY will mention it. It all started when Sam Bowie went before MJ. I got a trivia question for some people. Who was taken BEFORE Sam Bowie? I notice nobody talks about him going before MJ because he actually turned out to be a HOFer.

01-07-2007, 05:51 PM
I think they made the right decision by taking Mario. Maybe they shouldn't have taken him at #1 but Williams was the right pick for the team.

There, I said it.

Ya i believe they should have traded down at least 2-4 spots and probably still coulda nabbed him because he is a good player but @ #1 will always be regarded as the guy who went before Bush and Young

I'm sure they tried to, but it is very, very difficult to trade down from a pick in the top 3.

TCU
01-07-2007, 06:03 PM
i trade down to the #2 spot pick Mario and pickup an additional 3rd round and a 2nd round next year

ks_perfection
01-07-2007, 06:06 PM
I hate when people use that argument, because if all 3 players turn out great, NOBODY will mention it. It all started when Sam Bowie went before MJ. I got a trivia question for some people. Who was taken BEFORE Sam Bowie? I notice nobody talks about him going before MJ because he actually turned out to be a HOFer.


Hakim the Dream went first.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-07-2007, 06:10 PM
I hate when people use that argument, because if all 3 players turn out great, NOBODY will mention it. It all started when Sam Bowie went before MJ. I got a trivia question for some people. Who was taken BEFORE Sam Bowie? I notice nobody talks about him going before MJ because he actually turned out to be a HOFer.


Hakim the Dream went first. Correct. But I bet alot of posters here don't know that, and also notice that nobody ever says "WOW Houston is dumb they passed on MJ"

TH3
01-07-2007, 06:11 PM
I hate when people use that argument, because if all 3 players turn out great, NOBODY will mention it. It all started when Sam Bowie went before MJ. I got a trivia question for some people. Who was taken BEFORE Sam Bowie? I notice nobody talks about him going before MJ because he actually turned out to be a HOFer.


Hakim the Dream went first.

actually Akeem Abdul Olajuwon went first

umphrey
01-07-2007, 09:50 PM
Everyone says they should have taken VY now that he's tearing it up in TN...

Where are all the people who were saying he was a bust who would never learn an NFL scheme 1 year ago? Or criticized his "right arm throwing motion"?

Add that to the fact that the Texans already have Carr who is mediocre and still young...people would have been taking all kinds of shots at the Texans if they had taken VY.

Namy
01-07-2007, 10:28 PM
Reggie Bush. He was the Texans pick before they got butt hurt and took Williams instead. Someone on the first page said Bush wouldn't fit in the ZBS? Are you freaking kidding me??

The ZBS requires patience, the ability to break arm tackles, and for the runner to not dance. None of those are qualities Reggie Bush has.
All EASILY teachable. Patience is an easy maturing process that every RB will encounter. I don't see what you're trying to say about breaking arm tackles.... in ZBS you hit the hole once it opens up then bolt and do your thing once you hit the second level. That's it. It's pretty simple and I think bush would put up god like numbers if he's put in a good ZBS system.

I hate when people use that argument, because if all 3 players turn out great, NOBODY will mention it. It all started when Sam Bowie went before MJ. I got a trivia question for some people. Who was taken BEFORE Sam Bowie? I notice nobody talks about him going before MJ because he actually turned out to be a HOFer.
Olaujuan being a HOFer definitely softens the blow, but please don't tell me you'd rather have him over MJ.

San Diego Chicken
01-07-2007, 11:25 PM
More than anything I think the Texans needed a face of the franchise type player that will energize the fans in Houston and give them hope. Right now the team doesn't have a real personality and you have to question where they are going as a franchise.

The fact is that both Bush and Young have had a profound impact on the field for their respective teams. That's not to say that Williams has been bad, but realistically he's been the 3rd best rookie DE, behind Mark Anderson and Tamba Hali, and a guy like Kiwanuka hasn't been bad either.

Now let's say that each of the three players in question, Bush, Williams and Young reach their full potential, which players are going to be more condusive to winning football games? I think a franchise RB or QB ultimately wins more games for you than a franchise defensive end. And to this point the two guys that Houston didn't take have been flat out better than the guy they took. I've got nothing against taking a defensive approach in the draft, but with the #1 overall pick, when you've got your choice of any player on the board? It's just sort of unconventional, not to mention it alienates your fans and makes your organization look cheap for being scared of negotiating with the guy or guys who were widely viewed as the best players available. Especially when you've taken a down lineman with your first rounder they year prior.

P-L
01-07-2007, 11:58 PM
I too believe Mario Williams was the right pick. You win games in the trenches, not in the backfield. Almost all successful teams have a great OL, a great DL, or both. You can win without a franchise running back (see the Patriots of 2001 or the Buccaneers of 2002) and you can win without a franchise QB (see the Ravens of 2000 or the Buccaneers of 2002). But rarely can you win without a good OL and DL. Mario Williams was, and still is the second best DE prospect of the last 5-10 years. And while he hasn't produced up to this point like Young and Bush have, it doesn't mean he can't become a better player.

I believe that despite having better years, both Bush and Young's rookie seasons were overhyped. They both had their moments, but both have a long way to go. In my mind neither has proven to me that the Texans made a mistake in drafting Mario Williams. Bush has shown the ability to do special things with the ball in his hands, but he's been very sporadic this year. And, like it was mentioned numerous times, he was not a good fit for the ZBS at all. I hate to beat the same thing to death, but the prototypical RB for the ZBS is patient, with great vision, and the ability to make one cut and go. Bush has not shown any indication of those qualities as runner.

Vince Young on the otherhand, I believe gets too much credit for the Titans success. Now, I will admit he has exceeded mine as well as most of our expectations, but he is far from a sure thing. Watching the Titans games that I did this year, it seems to me that Titans' success has more to do with the teams' rallying around the young (no pun intended) rookie QB than it did just based on Young's peformance. I mean, he did have the second worst passer rating in the entire league and barely completed 50% of his passes. I'm really not sure the Texans would've had the same success as the Titans did, had they drafted Young.

But all three rookies have shown immense potential to go along with their question marks. But I still think that Mario was the correct pick. He plays [arguably] the most important position of the three and filled the biggest need at the time. You also have to remember that David Carr just received a contract extension and RB are not a high priority for a team running a ZBS. And finally, like it was pointed out, the Texans didn't even put much thought into taking Bush or Young. There were heavy rumors that their interest in Bush was a smokescreen and they never had any intention of taking him. And as for Young, they stopped considering him for their pick at least a month before the draft.

marks01234
01-08-2007, 05:46 PM
I voted for Mario and it isn't even close in my mind. If Houston couldn't take Mario, they should have taken D'Brick.

Remember, Mario Williams was the leagues youngest starter last year and still only 21 years old. He is close to two years younger than Gaines Adams and Quinton Moses who are entering the draft this year.

Everybody knew Mario was going to be raw. Throw in his foot problems and you shouldn't have been expecting an all-pro rookie season.

energizerbunny
01-08-2007, 07:18 PM
yall are forgetting Rbs are a dime a dozen if Kubiak can implement his system correctly. Also Bush wasn't and won't be the best RB in that class MJD,Addai and Maroney will all be better nfl runners than him. And all of those guys would fit better in the zone blocking system than Bush would.

ks_perfection
01-09-2007, 02:20 PM
I forget where I heard it but someone laid out a higharchy of positions when comparing Mario to Bush. First naturally was QB, second a WR, than DE, CB, LT and than a RB.

The reality is these days good RBs are everywhere, good DE aren't. Take Jon Abraham for example. If there was an injury prone great running back no way a team would trade a 1st rounder for him.

soybean
01-09-2007, 02:50 PM
I don't know if this was already mentioned, but when vince young beat the texans, the whole houston stadium was cheering, and then vince young jumped into the crowd and everyone was patting him on the back etc.

San Diego Chicken
01-09-2007, 03:19 PM
I forget where I heard it but someone laid out a higharchy of positions when comparing Mario to Bush. First naturally was QB, second a WR, than DE, CB, LT and than a RB.

The reality is these days good RBs are everywhere, good DE aren't. Take Jon Abraham for example. If there was an injury prone great running back no way a team would trade a 1st rounder for him.

In certain schemes, e.g. a Tampa 2 style defense I can see where a DE is key. But having a great DE isn't the only way you can create pressure on the QB. And I'll agree that there are many token 1000-1200 yard running backs in the NFL, but there aren't alot of elite, MVP candidate 1600+ rushers.

SterlingSharpe
01-09-2007, 05:35 PM
I forget where I heard it but someone laid out a higharchy of positions when comparing Mario to Bush. First naturally was QB, second a WR, than DE, CB, LT and than a RB.

The reality is these days good RBs are everywhere, good DE aren't. Take Jon Abraham for example. If there was an injury prone great running back no way a team would trade a 1st rounder for him.

In certain schemes, e.g. a Tampa 2 style defense I can see where a DE is key. But having a great DE isn't the only way you can create pressure on the QB. And I'll agree that there are many token 1000-1200 yard running backs in the NFL, but there aren't alot of elite, MVP candidate 1600+ rushers.

Well said!
As good as Julius Peppers is, and Jason Taylor, Dwight Freeney are, how many Super Bowls have the THREE WON COMBINED? How many for BRUCE SMITH or Reggie White?
Just ONE, REggie, when he went to FAVRE's PACKERS.

Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.

Grid
01-09-2007, 05:40 PM
Make no mistake, they made the right call by selecting Maio Williams.

SterlingSharpe
01-09-2007, 05:45 PM
Make no mistake, they made the right call by selecting Maio Williams.

No THEY did make a mistake. But I guess it will take a few years to convince some people.... or prove me wrong. So far, I think Tennessee and New Orleans are happy the Texans chose Mario.

smittyjs
01-09-2007, 05:55 PM
Make no mistake, they made the right call by selecting Maio Williams.

No THEY did make a mistake. But I guess it will take a few years to convince some people.... or prove me wrong. So far, I think Tennessee and New Orleans are happy the Texans chose Mario.But i'm sure the texans front office is fine with Mario, make a topic about this in three years or so.

Shiver
01-09-2007, 05:57 PM
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.

Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-09-2007, 06:06 PM
I forget where I heard it but someone laid out a higharchy of positions when comparing Mario to Bush. First naturally was QB, second a WR, than DE, CB, LT and than a RB.

The reality is these days good RBs are everywhere, good DE aren't. Take Jon Abraham for example. If there was an injury prone great running back no way a team would trade a 1st rounder for him.

In certain schemes, e.g. a Tampa 2 style defense I can see where a DE is key. But having a great DE isn't the only way you can create pressure on the QB. And I'll agree that there are many token 1000-1200 yard running backs in the NFL, but there aren't alot of elite, MVP candidate 1600+ rushers.


...Which is something Reggie hasn't come close to proving he can.

Only one position ranks above DE, and that's QB. They thought they had their QB. Also, Vince, despite what everyone may be saying, hasn't proven he's a great QB yet. He got lucky a few times, and after a year of watching film on him, defenses will be ready, if he doesn't improve. Keep in mind, he had a very low passer rating(2nd lowest, I heard someone say) 51.7% completions, and a TD:INT ratio of less than one. He still needs to become a better passer. None of the top 3 picks have really proven anything yet, even though VY won OROY. They've all had struggles.


Keep in mind, I am a BIG VY fan and absolutely LOVE what he could become. But he's not there yet, and there is no guarantee he ever will.

soybean
01-09-2007, 06:06 PM
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.

Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

except the 2000 rams. That's what i think the colts are trying to running their game plan off of.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-09-2007, 06:08 PM
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.

Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

except the 2000 rams. That's what i think the colts are trying to running their game plan off of.


I think the Rams had a top 5 defense that year.

San Diego Chicken
01-09-2007, 06:56 PM
I think that everyone can agree that defense wins championships. I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live. For as long as the Ravens have been a dominant defense, have they had a truly dominant defensive end? Pryce or Suggs are very good but they fit into a scheme where versatility is key and all of the players in the front seven and secondary are able to make plays. The Bears seem to find pass rushers very easily in the draft and in free agency. I think the value in a dominant defensive lineman is overstated and I know it's not a perfect comparison but the Courtney Brown debacle should serve as some proof that it's not always a good idea to draft them with the first pick.

Just objectively looking at Houston's situation, their defense did improve slightly, but is still not near where they need to be even though they added two impact rookies. Their main problem is scoring points. Besides Andre Johnson they have no impact playmakers on offense. They need touchdown makers - Bush and Young are that and they will be scorers for a long time in my opinion. Houston's not winning anything as long as they are one of the weakest offensive teams in the league. I realize that they're trying to replicate the Bronco's style offense but it's important to realize that Shanahan is the mastermind behind it and it will be hard for Kubiak to achieve that type of success without good talent. Frankly they don't have that talent right now, not at RB, not at QB, not on the offensive line. They have one franchise reciever who is going to waste, and that is all.

comahan
01-09-2007, 07:24 PM
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.

Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

except the 2000 rams. That's what i think the colts are trying to running their game plan off of.


I think the Rams had a top 5 defense that year.

Yea, the Rams had a good D that year, someone was throwing around their D stats, and they surprised me.

njx9
01-09-2007, 08:03 PM
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.

i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.

SterlingSharpe
01-09-2007, 08:45 PM
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.

Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

Even if you could make Mario into Peppers, HOW FAR IS DAVID CARR gonna drive that team?

How many more years?
Vince Young was meant to go to the Texans, and someone there ruined it. I think he was fired or forced out after that draft too.... something doesn't smell right about that whole deal to me.

sweetness34
01-09-2007, 08:48 PM
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.

Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

except the 2000 rams. That's what i think the colts are trying to running their game plan off of.


I think the Rams had a top 5 defense that year.

Um yea, St. Louis had a top 10 defense that year and they got a ton of takeaways as well (a defense coached by Lovie Smith). 8)

SterlingSharpe
01-09-2007, 08:49 PM
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.

i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.

Fair enough mr moderator. Reggie White was the greatest ever.

Anyway, that all being said; who was better ON THE FIELD then as a player in college?
Reggie Bush, Vince Young, or Mario Williams? Mario was 4th in voting for ACC defensive player of the year. FOURTH. In his CONFERENCE. This is another CLASSIC case of a GM/Scout overrating size and speed in a testing facility compared to actual PERFORMANCE ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD.... you can have POTENTIAL, give me PERFORMANCE.

njx9
01-09-2007, 08:56 PM
do you mean like bush's running performance? or vince young's astounding passing numbers at the pro level?

or again, maybe you believe ty detmer was the best quarterback prospect ever? or that jay cutler shouldn't have been drafted?

your argument is ridiculous. by your reasoning, all-americans and all conference teams should be drafted before anyone else, regardless of any on field performance. do you actually believe troy smith should be selected first overall? i mean, he was the BEST college football player in the nation.

San Diego Chicken
01-09-2007, 09:07 PM
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.

i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.

But most would agree QB is a more important position. And I would rather have Reggie Bush on my team than Mario Williams, that's just the way I feel about the two guys after watching them in college. I just think Bush is flat out better and would have helped Houston win more this year and in the future than Williams can. I'm not arguing that offense is more important than defense. It's not.

njx9
01-10-2007, 12:07 AM
But most would agree QB is a more important position.

the ravens wouldn't. i'm not really sure the steelers would. i'm not entirely sure the bucs would, although they might've made a weak case.

And I would rather have Reggie Bush on my team than Mario Williams, that's just the way I feel about the two guys after watching them in college.

i believe this thread had to do with hindsight, suggesting that the evaluation would be made after a year of NFL ball? in which case i don't believe you could convince me that mario williams was less valuable to the texans than bush was to the saints, moreso considering that the texans had far more holes than the saints did. i can agree to disagree, but i don't understand that argument at all.

I just think Bush is flat out better and would have helped Houston win more this year

sorry to snip, but the rest is conjecture and an "yes he will!" "no he won't!" argument would get boring quickly. how, exactly, would reggie bush have helped houston more this year? do you honestly believe demeco ryans would've made ANY plays with the texans d-line without williams? i'm interested as to why and how.

I'm not arguing that offense is more important than defense. It's not.

well, we agree on something.

San Diego Chicken
01-10-2007, 01:13 AM
But most would agree QB is a more important position.

the ravens wouldn't. i'm not really sure the steelers would. i'm not entirely sure the bucs would, although they might've made a weak case.

And I would rather have Reggie Bush on my team than Mario Williams, that's just the way I feel about the two guys after watching them in college.

i believe this thread had to do with hindsight, suggesting that the evaluation would be made after a year of NFL ball? in which case i don't believe you could convince me that mario williams was less valuable to the texans than bush was to the saints, moreso considering that the texans had far more holes than the saints did. i can agree to disagree, but i don't understand that argument at all.

I just think Bush is flat out better and would have helped Houston win more this year

sorry to snip, but the rest is conjecture and an "yes he will!" "no he won't!" argument would get boring quickly. how, exactly, would reggie bush have helped houston more this year? do you honestly believe demeco ryans would've made ANY plays with the texans d-line without williams? i'm interested as to why and how.

I'm not arguing that offense is more important than defense. It's not.

well, we agree on something.


Why wouldnt the Ravens agree? Is it a cooincidence that they had their best record in franchise history when they finally acquired a consistent veteran QB? Do you really think the Steelers win last year without Roethlisberger? He was outstanding in the first three rounds of the playoffs last year; there is a reason why they couldn't win with Kordell Stewart. Besides, those teams create more pressure with their linebackers anyway, they don't rely on a 4 man rush.

Houston needs more playmakers, both on the ground and in the passing game. Bush helps you in both areas and so does Young. Would Ryans have made as big of an impact without Williams? I really don't know. Did Williams really command that much attention to where all the credit given to Ryans should go to Williams? I'm not sure. In the (admittedly few) Texans games that I watched, that didn't appear to be the case. I did however notice that their offensive line had improved over years past, but could generate no big plays.

eacantdraft
01-10-2007, 07:45 AM
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.

i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.

Ok Mr. football genius. Jim Brown did win a championship. He just was never able to get that Super Bowl ring. Wonder why that was? :roll:

And I would love to see anyone ask Payton why he finally got one. I know where someone can get a million dollars (courtesy of the Amazing Randy) if anyone can prove they can ask Payton why he finally got one. :roll:

You got pwned yet again.
http://www.hellblazer.com/media/pwned.jpg

jag
01-10-2007, 07:56 AM
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.

i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.

Ok Mr. football genius. Jim Brown did win a championship. He just was never able to get that Super Bowl ring. Wonder why that was? :roll:

And I would love to see anyone ask Payton why he finally got one. I know where someone can get a million dollars (courtesy of the Amazing Randy) if anyone can prove they can ask Payton why he finally got one. :roll:

You got pwned yet again.
http://www.hellblazer.com/media/pwned.jpg

Dude, you proved nothing, and just made yourself look like an ass.
EDIT: my bad I forgot to add a :roll:

eacantdraft
01-10-2007, 08:10 AM
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.

i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.

Ok Mr. football genius. Jim Brown did win a championship. He just was never able to get that Super Bowl ring. Wonder why that was? :roll:

And I would love to see anyone ask Payton why he finally got one. I know where someone can get a million dollars (courtesy of the Amazing Randy) if anyone can prove they can ask Payton why he finally got one. :roll:

You got pwned yet again.
http://www.hellblazer.com/media/pwned.jpg

Dude, you proved nothing, and just made yourself look like an ass.
EDIT: my bad I forgot to add a :roll:

What did I need to prove? I'm not the ass who said Jim Brown didn't win a championship or thought I could ask Walter Payton why he finally won a championship.

eacantdraft
01-10-2007, 08:19 AM
But most would agree QB is a more important position.

the ravens wouldn't. i'm not really sure the steelers would. i'm not entirely sure the bucs would, although they might've made a weak case.

And I would rather have Reggie Bush on my team than Mario Williams, that's just the way I feel about the two guys after watching them in college.

i believe this thread had to do with hindsight, suggesting that the evaluation would be made after a year of NFL ball? in which case i don't believe you could convince me that mario williams was less valuable to the texans than bush was to the saints, moreso considering that the texans had far more holes than the saints did. i can agree to disagree, but i don't understand that argument at all.

I just think Bush is flat out better and would have helped Houston win more this year

sorry to snip, but the rest is conjecture and an "yes he will!" "no he won't!" argument would get boring quickly. how, exactly, would reggie bush have helped houston more this year? do you honestly believe demeco ryans would've made ANY plays with the texans d-line without williams? i'm interested as to why and how.

I'm not arguing that offense is more important than defense. It's not.

well, we agree on something.


Why wouldnt the Ravens agree? Is it a cooincidence that they had their best record in franchise history when they finally acquired a consistent veteran QB? Do you really think the Steelers win last year without Roethlisberger? He was outstanding in the first three rounds of the playoffs last year; there is a reason why they couldn't win with Kordell Stewart. Besides, those teams create more pressure with their linebackers anyway, they don't rely on a 4 man rush.

Houston needs more playmakers, both on the ground and in the passing game. Bush helps you in both areas and so does Young. Would Ryans have made as big of an impact without Williams? I really don't know. Did Williams really command that much attention to where all the credit given to Ryans should go to Williams? I'm not sure. In the (admittedly few) Texans games that I watched, that didn't appear to be the case. I did however notice that their offensive line had improved over years past, but could generate no big plays.

njx9 is an Eli fangirl. They don't like it when other QB's of their draft class have a better career than their dreamboat. That is why they try to put down other players who are better than their boy.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-10-2007, 10:38 AM
But most would agree QB is a more important position.

the ravens wouldn't. i'm not really sure the steelers would. i'm not entirely sure the bucs would, although they might've made a weak case.

And I would rather have Reggie Bush on my team than Mario Williams, that's just the way I feel about the two guys after watching them in college.

i believe this thread had to do with hindsight, suggesting that the evaluation would be made after a year of NFL ball? in which case i don't believe you could convince me that mario williams was less valuable to the texans than bush was to the saints, moreso considering that the texans had far more holes than the saints did. i can agree to disagree, but i don't understand that argument at all.

I just think Bush is flat out better and would have helped Houston win more this year

sorry to snip, but the rest is conjecture and an "yes he will!" "no he won't!" argument would get boring quickly. how, exactly, would reggie bush have helped houston more this year? do you honestly believe demeco ryans would've made ANY plays with the texans d-line without williams? i'm interested as to why and how.

I'm not arguing that offense is more important than defense. It's not.

well, we agree on something.


Why wouldnt the Ravens agree? Is it a cooincidence that they had their best record in franchise history when they finally acquired a consistent veteran QB? Do you really think the Steelers win last year without Roethlisberger? He was outstanding in the first three rounds of the playoffs last year; there is a reason why they couldn't win with Kordell Stewart. Besides, those teams create more pressure with their linebackers anyway, they don't rely on a 4 man rush.

Houston needs more playmakers, both on the ground and in the passing game. Bush helps you in both areas and so does Young. Would Ryans have made as big of an impact without Williams? I really don't know. Did Williams really command that much attention to where all the credit given to Ryans should go to Williams? I'm not sure. In the (admittedly few) Texans games that I watched, that didn't appear to be the case. I did however notice that their offensive line had improved over years past, but could generate no big plays.

njx9 is an Eli fangirl. They don't like it when other QB's of their draft class have a better career than their dreamboat. That is why they try to put down other players who are better than their boy.

Yeah, njx is a crazy, delusional Giants homer.

njx9
01-10-2007, 11:32 AM
Ok Mr. football genius. Jim Brown did win a championship. He just was never able to get that Super Bowl ring. Wonder why that was? :roll:


1964 the browns won the pre-merger NFL championship. but i thought jim brown was the best running back ever, and if running back is the single most important football position on the team, he should've carried them to a championship every year? right?

further, were you able to, you know, process written words, you would've realized the word i used was "championships" thus, trying to imply i'm an idiot for asking why he didn't win a super bowl isn't really meaningful and simply makes you look illiterate.

njx9
01-10-2007, 11:34 AM
njx9 is an Eli fangirl. They don't like it when other QB's of their draft class have a better career than their dreamboat. That is why they try to put down other players who are better than their boy.

what in the hell does that have to do with a conversation about mario williams? i'll even ignore that the comment itself was wrong, and we'll simply address the fact that it was completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand and is yet more evidence of your complete infatuation with a quarterback whose name you feel obligated to drag into every single thread.

njx9
01-10-2007, 11:54 AM
Why wouldnt the Ravens agree? Is it a cooincidence that they had their best record in franchise history when they finally acquired a consistent veteran QB?

you're saying trent dilfer had a big part in their super bowl victory? maybe, but in his 9 games in 2000, he was pretty mediocre.

Do you really think the Steelers win last year without Roethlisberger? He was outstanding in the first three rounds of the playoffs last year; there is a reason why they couldn't win with Kordell Stewart.

do i think they win without him going 9/21 with 2 ints? yeah, i think they probably could've managed to give the ball to bettis and parker all game. perhaps the difference there was parker? or maybe it was polamalu?

Besides, those teams create more pressure with their linebackers anyway, they don't rely on a 4 man rush.

this year's ravens actually generated more sacks from their defensive line. i would be interested in seeing numbers from some of those other systems if you have them.

Houston needs more playmakers, both on the ground and in the passing game. Bush helps you in both areas and so does Young.

as far as i could tell, houston needed talent across the board. how did baltimore and tampa build their team for their super bowls again? how many "playmakers" has new england had on offense this decade? how many super bowls did uber-playmaker Terrell Owens win?

Would Ryans have made as big of an impact without Williams? I really don't know. Did Williams really command that much attention to where all the credit given to Ryans should go to Williams? I'm not sure. In the (admittedly few) Texans games that I watched, that didn't appear to be the case. I did however notice that their offensive line had improved over years past, but could generate no big plays.

*shrug* most of that isn't really worth arguing for reasons previously stated in this thread, but they bear thinking about. their offensive line improved but david carr (from what i saw) failed completely to bother looking downfield. ever.

here's the point: as of right now, i don't believe for one second that anyone can make a convincing argument (as demonstrated so far) for vince young or reggie bush over mario. in 2 years that may completely change and i'll line up to eat crow. but as of right this minute, i don't buy that either reggie bush's mediocre rushing numbers or vince young's mediocre passing numbers can be said to be obviously or even vaguely better than the effect mario williams appeared to have on the defensive unit.

eacantdraft
01-10-2007, 12:11 PM
Ok Mr. football genius. Jim Brown did win a championship. He just was never able to get that Super Bowl ring. Wonder why that was? :roll:


1964 the browns won the pre-merger NFL championship. but i thought jim brown was the best running back ever, and if running back is the single most important football position on the team, he should've carried them to a championship every year? right?

further, were you able to, you know, process written words, you would've realized the word i used was "championships" thus, trying to imply i'm an idiot for asking why he didn't win a super bowl isn't really meaningful and simply makes you look illiterate.

Hey, you were the one who inplied that Jim Brown did not win a championship.
i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

I decided to give you the correct facts. And I still would like to see you or anyone else ask Walter Payton why he won one. Maybe when you are talking to Walter, you can also ask Babe Ruth whether he called that homerun against the Cubs.

njx9
01-10-2007, 12:19 PM
Ok Mr. football genius. Jim Brown did win a championship. He just was never able to get that Super Bowl ring. Wonder why that was? :roll:


1964 the browns won the pre-merger NFL championship. but i thought jim brown was the best running back ever, and if running back is the single most important football position on the team, he should've carried them to a championship every year? right?

further, were you able to, you know, process written words, you would've realized the word i used was "championships" thus, trying to imply i'm an idiot for asking why he didn't win a super bowl isn't really meaningful and simply makes you look illiterate.

Hey, you were the one who inplied that Jim Brown did not win a championship.

sure, it was a poorly worded question. hooray.

I decided to give you the correct facts. And I still would like to see you or anyone else ask Walter Payton why he won one. Maybe when you are talking to Walter, you can also ask Babe Ruth whether he called that homerun against the Cubs.

walter payton's answer may have had something to do with his team having had one of the best defenses ever. but yeah, i'm sure it's because his team drafted only playmakers.

eacantdraft
01-10-2007, 12:20 PM
do i think they win without him going 9/21 with 2 ints? yeah, i think they probably could've managed to give the ball to bettis and parker all game. perhaps the difference there was parker? or maybe it was polamalu?

Keep thinking that. It was Ben that made the deep pass to near the goal line after which he ran it in. Pittsburgh made the plays, Seattle couldn't. Seattle acted like the game was won between the 20's not in the red zone.

San Diego Chicken
01-10-2007, 03:28 PM
Why wouldnt the Ravens agree? Is it a cooincidence that they had their best record in franchise history when they finally acquired a consistent veteran QB?

you're saying trent dilfer had a big part in their super bowl victory? maybe, but in his 9 games in 2000, he was pretty mediocre.

Do you really think the Steelers win last year without Roethlisberger? He was outstanding in the first three rounds of the playoffs last year; there is a reason why they couldn't win with Kordell Stewart.

do i think they win without him going 9/21 with 2 ints? yeah, i think they probably could've managed to give the ball to bettis and parker all game. perhaps the difference there was parker? or maybe it was polamalu?

Besides, those teams create more pressure with their linebackers anyway, they don't rely on a 4 man rush.

this year's ravens actually generated more sacks from their defensive line. i would be interested in seeing numbers from some of those other systems if you have them.

Houston needs more playmakers, both on the ground and in the passing game. Bush helps you in both areas and so does Young.

as far as i could tell, houston needed talent across the board. how did baltimore and tampa build their team for their super bowls again? how many "playmakers" has new england had on offense this decade? how many super bowls did uber-playmaker Terrell Owens win?

Would Ryans have made as big of an impact without Williams? I really don't know. Did Williams really command that much attention to where all the credit given to Ryans should go to Williams? I'm not sure. In the (admittedly few) Texans games that I watched, that didn't appear to be the case. I did however notice that their offensive line had improved over years past, but could generate no big plays.

*shrug* most of that isn't really worth arguing for reasons previously stated in this thread, but they bear thinking about. their offensive line improved but david carr (from what i saw) failed completely to bother looking downfield. ever.

here's the point: as of right now, i don't believe for one second that anyone can make a convincing argument (as demonstrated so far) for vince young or reggie bush over mario. in 2 years that may completely change and i'll line up to eat crow. but as of right this minute, i don't buy that either reggie bush's mediocre rushing numbers or vince young's mediocre passing numbers can be said to be obviously or even vaguely better than the effect mario williams appeared to have on the defensive unit.

I believe you're putting things in rather improper context. While the ultimate goal of any team is to win a super bowl, the immediate goal for a struggling team like the Texans is respectibility. Therefore, listing off the great offensive players that didn't win super bowls is misleading and sort of propagandist - many great defensive players didn't win Super Bowls either. Even Terrell Owens has his team in the playoffs more often than not.

Going back to the specific examples, the Steelers likely don't make it out of Cincinnati without Roethlisberger. They definitely don't make it out of Indianapolis without Roethlisberger, and you should know that Roethlisberger was brilliant in the Denver win. The 2000 Ravens defense was an extremely rare phenomenon. That defense was so good that they really didn't need a quality QB, but they did need a solid running game. That quality of a defense comes around once every 20 years.

I agree that Houston needed talent across the board. They could have gone any number of directions with their first pick. Having said that, if you don't plan on trading down, why not go for the consensus best player available, especially the ones who will generate excitement around your franchise and give your fans hope?

NYGIANTSFAN_UK
01-10-2007, 03:37 PM
The Texans had so many holes at that time and RB and QB were not amongst them, so I think they were right to draft Mario Williams.

SterlingSharpe
01-10-2007, 05:12 PM
I think the most accurate answer would be if this question was posed in the TEXANS forum.
Those guys watched more of their games than we all did.

All I DO KNOW is that Super Mario did not even dominate the ACC last year.
I know that Vince and Bush DID dominate the whole NCAA and led their teams to titles. I also know that Reggie Bush was the most electric RB I had seen since Barry Sanders in 1988. And I had never seen a QB like Vince Young, although Vick was close against Florida State. But Vince got it done in the end.

I still don't see anything SPECIAL about Mario Williams other than his combine numbers.

49ersfan_87
01-10-2007, 05:23 PM
Wasnt mario williams dubbed as a lawrence taylor/julius peppers type hybrid player? Id take a chance on that.

At the time they thought that carr and davis (now williams) would be good for them. But carr still sucks, and their RB is injury prone. Besides, their defense is terrible, they wanted to start where it counts, the trenches.

And williams didnt have a bad year. He still had something like 4.5 sacks and a few hurries and FF. Not every rookie DE is going to be a monster. Besides, hasnt he been playing hurt lately?

marks01234
01-10-2007, 05:33 PM
I can't believe some people are questioning the Texans pick with Bush.

njx9
01-10-2007, 05:35 PM
All I DO KNOW is that Super Mario did not even dominate the ACC last year.

and you've STILL presented nothing that implies postseason awards have any bearing on a player's NFL ability.

what's further funny is that every texans fan i've seen reply to this thread thinks you're wrong.

Shiver
01-10-2007, 06:11 PM
All I DO KNOW is that Super Mario did not even dominate the ACC last year.

and you've STILL presented nothing that implies postseason awards have any bearing on a player's NFL ability.

what's further funny is that every texans fan i've seen reply to this thread thinks you're wrong.


I love the "Mario didn't dominate the ACC."

:roll:


Mario Williams: 62 tackles, 14.5 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 1 blocked kick, 1 safety, 4 fumble recoveries

Julius Peppers: 63 tackles, 9.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble and 3 interceptions


If you think Mario Williams was a bad pick, you must have thought Peppers was a reach too. Because Williams was even more dominant than Peppers, in their junior seasons, in the same conference. Besides; Peppers even had a redshirt season over Mario, so he was more experienced and developed. Williams just now reached his size potential, he played at 260-lbs as a sophomore, 280-lbs as a junior, and 295-lbs as a pro.

SterlingSharpe
01-10-2007, 07:11 PM
All I DO KNOW is that Super Mario did not even dominate the ACC last year.

and you've STILL presented nothing that implies postseason awards have any bearing on a player's NFL ability.

what's further funny is that every texans fan i've seen reply to this thread thinks you're wrong.

POST-SEASON AWARDS are given for PLAYING PERFORMANCE.
You don't see any correlation there?
Why was LaDanian Tomlinson just given a post-season award? BECAUSE he dominated the NFL this season.

If there were 3 better guys on defense IN THE ACC that season than Mario, why would he then dominate the NFL? Because he ran fast in Indianapolis at the combine for a large guy? He always ran fast in college too. Did he dominate and win awards for it?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-10-2007, 07:22 PM
All I DO KNOW is that Super Mario did not even dominate the ACC last year.

and you've STILL presented nothing that implies postseason awards have any bearing on a player's NFL ability.

what's further funny is that every texans fan i've seen reply to this thread thinks you're wrong.

POST-SEASON AWARDS are given for PLAYING PERFORMANCE.
You don't see any correlation there?
Why was LaDanian Tomlinson just given a post-season award? BECAUSE he dominated the NFL this season.

If there were 3 better guys on defense IN THE ACC that season than Mario, why would he then dominate the NFL? Because he ran fast in Indianapolis at the combine for a large guy? He always ran fast in college too. Did he dominate and win awards for it?

Well first off, he meant postseason awards in college. They're meaningless. Jason White, Heisman, not in the league.Ernest Shazor, Thorpe, undrafted. Mik Hass, Biletnikoff, Bears Practice squad.

Second of all, Shiver proved that he dominated more than Peppers, widely considered the NFL's best DE.

smittyjs
01-10-2007, 07:28 PM
I think the most accurate answer would be if this question was posed in the TEXANS forum.
Those guys watched more of their games than we all did.

All I DO KNOW is that Super Mario did not even dominate the ACC last year.
I know that Vince and Bush DID dominate the whole NCAA and led their teams to titles. I also know that Reggie Bush was the most electric RB I had seen since Barry Sanders in 1988. And I had never seen a QB like Vince Young, although Vick was close against Florida State. But Vince got it done in the end.

I still don't see anything SPECIAL about Mario Williams other than his combine numbers.That why you don't take player based on there college production only, potential is the most important part, Bush in zone blocking wouldn't have did much for me, and he haven't proved anymore than Williams at this point. Carr looked like the future during the draft last year, you can now make a point with them taking VY now. But i still Mario being a great pick, he may not be a superstar, but he will be a top player in the NFL in four or five years.

Flyboy
01-10-2007, 08:55 PM
he may not be a superstar, but he will be a top player in the NFL in four or five years.

However, if you have the #1 pick in the draft I believe the point would be to take the superstar and not just a top player, but whatever.

njx9
01-10-2007, 09:34 PM
POST-SEASON AWARDS are given for PLAYING PERFORMANCE.
You don't see any correlation there?
Why was LaDanian Tomlinson just given a post-season award? BECAUSE he dominated the NFL this season.

If there were 3 better guys on defense IN THE ACC that season than Mario, why would he then dominate the NFL? Because he ran fast in Indianapolis at the combine for a large guy? He always ran fast in college too. Did he dominate and win awards for it?

so if danny wuerrfel was the best PLAYER in college football, why isn't he a god in the NFL? where's eric crouch? your making a stupid argument. please try again.

energizerbunny
01-10-2007, 09:47 PM
Mario hasn't even began to tap his potential. You also have to keep in mind that Mario was one of the youngest rookies in the league last year and he is 2 years younger than Gaines Adams. HE is also a YEAR YOUNGER than Peppers was at the same age and much heavier and stronger. SOme of you people obviously don't understand the importance and potential. When you pick 1st overall your main objective should be to improve the team. The Texans already had a probowl return man in Mathis, and a 3rd down type rb. And Carr was only 4 years removed from being the #1 pick. The only player you could make a intelligent arguement for is D'Brickashaw and he isn't even on your poll!


Also if Reggie can't average over 4 yard a carry on the Saints with a Franchise QB and good oline, while he is sharing the ball with a 1,000 yard back what even gives you the slightest indication that he would have improved the Texans and gave them anything more than Jersey sales?

Dunta_23
01-10-2007, 10:12 PM
I voted for Mario Williams..

First things first....Everyone in Houston wanted Vince Young...but the Vince Young you see in Tennessee is not the Vince Young you would have seen in Houston because of Gary Kubiak....Look at the offense of the Texans...the passes are all short and quick....0 shotgun plays and he gives his QB's no room to make any changes etc....meaning MOST of Vince's skills would have gone untapped....and he would have constantly be trying to run for his life.

Secondly, Reggie Bush is good/explosive/exciting/everything....In New Orleans...I really think this is who they were after but the contract demands got so out of hand that they then switched focus to Mario...but Houston has Jerome Mathis as a KR, and started the season with Philip Buchanon as a PR...and they were to have Domanick Davis/Williams back as well as have Vernand Morency(who was traded and had a decent year in GB)...Reggie would have been less effective in Houston than he was in New Orleans....most passes went to Andre Johnson....they didnt even use Eric Moulds that much.....and also Kubiak thinks he can do without a stud RB I believe...

Now on to Mario....Defense wins Championships....with Mario, Demeco, and Dunta Robinson, they have a good start.....they had no good players at DE except for Anthony Weaver...As a lot of people have stated, Mario WAS the right pick, only debate should be if he went to high...They obviously couldnt find a trading partner or I think they would have moved down

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-10-2007, 10:33 PM
I voted for Mario Williams..

First things first....Everyone in Houston wanted Vince Young...but the Vince Young you see in Tennessee is not the Vince Young you would have seen in Houston because of Gary Kubiak....Look at the offense of the Texans...the passes are all short and quick....0 shotgun plays and he gives his QB's no room to make any changes etc....meaning MOST of Vince's skills would have gone untapped....and he would have constantly be trying to run for his life.

Secondly, Reggie Bush is good/explosive/exciting/everything....In New Orleans...I really think this is who they were after but the contract demands got so out of hand that they then switched focus to Mario...but Houston has Jerome Mathis as a KR, and started the season with Philip Buchanon as a PR...and they were to have Domanick Davis/Williams back as well as have Vernand Morency(who was traded and had a decent year in GB)...Reggie would have been less effective in Houston than he was in New Orleans....most passes went to Andre Johnson....they didnt even use Eric Moulds that much.....and also Kubiak thinks he can do without a stud RB I believe...

Now on to Mario....Defense wins Championships....with Mario, Demeco, and Dunta Robinson, they have a good start.....they had no good players at DE except for Anthony Weaver...As a lot of people have stated, Mario WAS the right pick, only debate should be if he went to high...They obviously couldnt find a trading partner or I think they would have moved down

New Orleans might have taken Mario if he was there. I remember there was alot of talk about that before the draft.

ks_perfection
01-10-2007, 10:34 PM
How is Mario so much younger than the others? They all went out as Juniors

energizerbunny
01-10-2007, 10:39 PM
He was a true junior and I believe he has a late birthday

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-10-2007, 10:39 PM
How is Mario so much younger than the others? They all went out as Juniors

Late Birthday maybe? VY was a RS Junior, so pretty much a senior. Mario might have maybe been put in school early or somthing too.

Flyboy
01-10-2007, 10:57 PM
Secondly, Reggie Bush is good/explosive/exciting/everything....In New Orleans...I really think this is who they were after but the contract demands got so out of hand that they then switched focus to Mario

Please. The contract demands had nothing to do with Houston not taking Bush.

CC.SD
01-10-2007, 11:27 PM
Secondly, Reggie Bush is good/explosive/exciting/everything....In New Orleans...I really think this is who they were after but the contract demands got so out of hand that they then switched focus to Mario

Please. The contract demands had nothing to do with Houston not taking Bush.

I don't think that's true. Texas balked, and thought themselves out of making the no brainer, because they didn't want to deal with the demands of Bush. You should be happy because of it.

P-L
01-10-2007, 11:48 PM
Secondly, Reggie Bush is good/explosive/exciting/everything....In New Orleans...I really think this is who they were after but the contract demands got so out of hand that they then switched focus to Mario

Please. The contract demands had nothing to do with Houston not taking Bush.

I think it definately had something to do with it. Houston started negotiating with both Williams and Bush days before the draft. They reached terms of a deal with Williams, but didn't with Bush. But it obviously wasn't the only reason.

njx9
01-11-2007, 12:03 AM
totally missed this one, whoops..


I believe you're putting things in rather improper context. While the ultimate goal of any team is to win a super bowl, the immediate goal for a struggling team like the Texans is respectibility. Therefore, listing off the great offensive players that didn't win super bowls is misleading and sort of propagandist - many great defensive players didn't win Super Bowls either. Even Terrell Owens has his team in the playoffs more often than not.

it's absolutely propagandist. but is there any difference between that and saying "reggie was a better pick because he looked really good in college"? nothing bush has done thus far in the NFL would possibly lead anyone to believe that he would've made a better pick. let's look at his effect on new orleans (you sort of allude to it): the selection of reggie bush excites new orleans. established. what kept their interest? a running back who wasn't, for most of the season, particularly good at running the ball, or the fact that the team was winning? do we then credit that winning completely to reggie, or to putting together good players and playing in a weaker conference, comparatively? do you actually think that reggie bush would've made houston a 12-4 team (even assuming you think he made new orleans a 12-4 team)? i still fail to see any reasonable argument that would lead opne to conclude that reggie or vince would've positively affected the houston win-loss sheet, which is, in the end, the most important thing to fans.

Going back to the specific examples, the Steelers likely don't make it out of Cincinnati without Roethlisberger. They definitely don't make it out of Indianapolis without Roethlisberger, and you should know that Roethlisberger was brilliant in the Denver win.

even though we've sort of moved on: i think NIP could've led the steelers to the win in denver, but sure, roethlisberger played well before the super bowl. then he played extremely poorly in the super bowl. and they still won. *shrug* it makes you wonder how much of the earlier success was on the QB.

The 2000 Ravens defense was an extremely rare phenomenon. That defense was so good that they really didn't need a quality QB, but they did need a solid running game. That quality of a defense comes around once every 20 years.

why are the ravens in the position they're in this year? weak running game. average quarterback. it's the defense, again. tampa bay's defense when they beat the raiders? it certainly wasn't the spectacular effort of brad johnson in the playoffs that year (not that he hurt them).

I agree that Houston needed talent across the board. They could have gone any number of directions with their first pick. Having said that, if you don't plan on trading down, why not go for the consensus best player available, especially the ones who will generate excitement around your franchise and give your fans hope?

he was the best defensive player on the board. he was compared favorably to some of the best DE's in the league, iirc. at the time of the draft, it was widely assumed that vince wouldn't translate to the NFL immediately, and it would've been a colossal mistake to take a player who wouldn't see the field for at least a year. getting back to hindsight, vince wasn't spectacular. he made some great plays, but highlight reels don't tend to fill seats unless they come with wins. i'm not sure vince is half that successful without travis henry. reggie bush was the best decoy in the NFL for most of the year. why teams didn't sit back and make him beat them, i'll never know. does that win a team without any talent games? who plays defensive line for the texans without williams? do they have any guys capable of playing all four positions in the scheme they'd just installed that year well? do they have anyone capable of playing ANY scheme well?

ncbigbody
01-11-2007, 04:33 AM
Lets leave it at this.

They should have traded down if they wanted Mario Williams, they botched the pick, they know it, their fans will never forgive them.

And if you watched the games even in college you would know he has nowhere near the explosion Peppers has off the line.

njx9
01-11-2007, 08:57 AM
Lets leave it at this.

They should have traded down if they wanted Mario Williams, they botched the pick, they know it, their fans will never forgive them.

And if you watched the games even in college you would know he has nowhere near the explosion Peppers has off the line.

ahh yes, they should've just waved their hand and said "we want to trade down, why don't all the top 4 teams willing to give us equal value line up outside." oh, except that's actually mroe difficult in practice than in reality. :roll:

do you people ever think about the real world problems associated with these suggestions, or do you just assume that because you said it can happen, it can easily happen?

marks01234
01-11-2007, 02:16 PM
Lets leave it at this.

They should have traded down if they wanted Mario Williams, they botched the pick, they know it, their fans will never forgive them.

And if you watched the games even in college you would know he has nowhere near the explosion Peppers has off the line.

Please...

Everything coming from the Saints suggested that they had Mario #1. So the Texans would have traded down and lost the guy they wanted.

And this Peppers explosion thing is crap. Did you watch Mario? Did you see his 4.66 40 times including a amazingly fast first ten yards.

energizerbunny
01-11-2007, 02:34 PM
if the Texans traded down they wouldn't have been able to draft Mario as the saints probally would have selected him.

Shiver
01-11-2007, 02:52 PM
if the Texans traded down they wouldn't have been able to draft Mario as the saints probally would have selected him.

If they traded down their only legitimate option was D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Good, but he isn't close to Williams in terms of grade.

energizerbunny
01-11-2007, 03:01 PM
who is actaully ripping the Texans and calling it a bad pick?

njx9
01-11-2007, 03:04 PM
apparently 75 people. and the thread's author, who thinks that collegiate post season awards should absolutely determine draft position.

SterlingSharpe
01-11-2007, 03:19 PM
Lets leave it at this.

They should have traded down if they wanted Mario Williams, they botched the pick, they know it, their fans will never forgive them.

And if you watched the games even in college you would know he has nowhere near the explosion Peppers has off the line.

I think that's very smart what you said, but some people here seem to think you don't have the right to think that. Some people would lead you to believe that even if he was voted as the 4td best defensive player in the ACC that because he ran fast and jumped high in Indianapolis, and because he has similarities as Peppers, that he in fact would become Peppers. But God forbid you thought what Reggie Bush, or Vince Young did was better, and therefore there was the POSSIBILITY that those two might also be able to dominate in the NFL. If Houston took Mario, then it was the right thing to do and nobody should question it. My Packers took Mandarich at #2 overall in 1989, and that was right too, even though #1, #3, #4, #5 were Hall of Famers. (Aikman, Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas, Deion Sanders) Again, if the Packers CHOSE Mandarich, then that must have been the RIGHT pick and nobody should 2nd guess it ever.

Always draft the larger players over the special athletes, at skill postions because they are smaller and don't possess the same huge upside.

njx9
01-11-2007, 03:28 PM
My Packers took Mandarich at #2 overall in 1989, and that was right too, even though #1, #3, #4, #5 were Hall of Famers.

your argument is stupid. mandarich was an outland finalist, a first team all-american and a two time big ten linemen of the year. so by your reasoning, he SHOULD have been taken first. try again.

frogstomp
01-11-2007, 03:32 PM
They made the right pick for their team. They need to work on their lines, and a QB or RB would have done nothing behind that line anyways.

If they had drafted Young or Bush, we'd all be saying they should have taken Williams.

SFbear
01-11-2007, 04:50 PM
Lets leave it at this.

They should have traded down if they wanted Mario Williams, they botched the pick, they know it, their fans will never forgive them.

And if you watched the games even in college you would know he has nowhere near the explosion Peppers has off the line.

I think that's very smart what you said, but some people here seem to think you don't have the right to think that. Some people would lead you to believe that even if he was voted as the 4td best defensive player in the ACC that because he ran fast and jumped high in Indianapolis, and because he has similarities as Peppers, that he in fact would become Peppers. But God forbid you thought what Reggie Bush, or Vince Young did was better, and therefore there was the POSSIBILITY that those two might also be able to dominate in the NFL. If Houston took Mario, then it was the right thing to do and nobody should question it. My Packers took Mandarich at #2 overall in 1989, and that was right too, even though #1, #3, #4, #5 were Hall of Famers. (Aikman, Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas, Deion Sanders) Again, if the Packers CHOSE Mandarich, then that must have been the RIGHT pick and nobody should 2nd guess it ever.

Always draft the larger players over the special athletes, at skill postions because they are smaller and don't possess the same huge upside.


No one has said you don't have the right to have youre belief and no one is doubting the possibility Vince and Bush may be better players later down the line. Theyre arguing AT THE TIME Mario was the right pick.

You started this post to start a discussion and presented your point of view with a condescending tone that anyone that disagrees with you is crazy. Now that people are unconvinced by your arguement (in overwhleming numbers) and have presented a rebuttal to your arguement you have a responisbility to either change your beliefs or provide a rebuttal and explanation of why youre unconvinced.

Claiming that people are attacking you for your beliefs when you were the one who started the discussion is intellectual cowardice.

njx9
01-11-2007, 04:56 PM
Claiming that people are attacking you for your beliefs when you were the one who started the discussion is intellectual cowardice.

+rep.

SterlingSharpe
01-11-2007, 05:08 PM
My Packers took Mandarich at #2 overall in 1989, and that was right too, even though #1, #3, #4, #5 were Hall of Famers.

your argument is stupid. mandarich was an outland finalist, a first team all-american and a two time big ten linemen of the year. so by your reasoning, he SHOULD have been taken first. try again.

No, my reasoning and rules are ALWAYS draft the special skill player, playmaker, over the blocker.
Always.

Look at the Cowboys OL of the dynasty 90's. How many premiere picks?
With Aikman, Emmitt, and Irvin (all 1st rounders), they made that OL look great. They didn't draft any Ol #2 overall, or even first round. I think 1 of their 5 starting OL was taken high.

My Packers a few years ago, when Ahman ran for 1800, had a bunch of mid-round draft picks or low picks. For an OL to be great, you don't need high draft picks. You need good guys that work well together and are smart.

By the way, my buddy's dad is a high school football coach in Minnesota, and we as Packer fans were very intrigued by the Mandarich hype back them. I remember my friend asking his dad about Mandarich having zits all over his back and a receding hairline at age 21, while eating enough food per day to feed a country. My friend's dad said because he's on steroids. This was before the draft. Great pick that was. Is it any wonder why the Packers of that era were horrible? Passing on Sanders and Sanders and Thomas..... Sports Illustrated jinxed him I guess.

By the way, about the voting here.... it's a good one with 30 to 40 to 50, for Mario leading the way. That's fine. Good action. Let's find a panel of EXPERTS and poll them......

Shiver
01-11-2007, 05:17 PM
So your whole argument is the assumption that all "playmakers" succeed in the NFL and aren't busts? What about Bruce Smith? Julius Peppers? Simeon Rice? Kevin Carter? Derrick Thomas? All were defensive ends, who were drafted in the upper echelon of the draft and had great careers. Their impact dwarfs a lot of the "playmakers" drafted behind them.

Let's find a panel of EXPERTS and poll them......

Bill Parcells had Mario Williams over Reggie Bush. Ron Wolf, who assembled the great Packers' teams of the 90s and the great Raiders' 70s teams, had the same. There are plenty of "experts" who thought Mario Williams was just as good of a prospect.

frogstomp
01-11-2007, 06:15 PM
I don't see why the word bust is even being mentioned in this thread... Williams has only played one year, and had some injury issues as well.

He's had a lot of moments where he has lookedlike he will become another dominant DE.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-11-2007, 06:22 PM
I don't see why the word bust is even being mentioned in this thread... Williams has only played one year, and had some injury issues as well.

He's had a lot of moments where he has lookedlike he will become another dominant DE.


Just like Reggie's had moments where he looks like a dominant RB, VY has moments where he looks like a dominant QB. They all also have moments where they look like crap and you wonder how they got drafted so high. It's way too early to tell who will be a bust and who will be great. In the end, all three could bust, and then the argument becomes they should have taken D'Brick.

marks01234
01-11-2007, 07:16 PM
I think we all should agree that is way to early to call anybody a bust.

As for your theory about drafting skill position players. I guess you would have drafted Joey Harrington, Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Kijuana Carter, Tim Biakabutuka, Carlos Rogers, David Terrell and Keyshaun Johnson.

For every Robert Gallery and Courtney Brown there is at least one Kijuana Carter and Ryan Leaf.

Super Bowl winning teams have built through the draft in a variety of ways. Look at the Pats. He is by far the best ran franchise for the past 5 years. And look where they have spent their first round selections prior to last year

2005 Logan Mankins G Fresno State
2004 Vince Wilfork DT Miami (Fla.)
2004 Ben Watson TE Georgia
2003 Ty Warren DT Texas A&M
2002 Daniel Graham TE Colorado
2001 Richard Seymour DT Georgia

I'd say they are doing something right. Where do you think the Chargers would be right now if they had decided to make a sexy pick, like a WR, instead of selecting Shawne Merriman or Luis Castillo. What about the Bears who have built their great defense around a great selection in Brian Urlacher and recently Tommie Harris.

Creating a rule that when you have two players with similar draft grade, you always select the player playing position X is stupid.

ncbigbody
01-11-2007, 07:28 PM
Another one of my basic points is the Texans are trying to put fans in the stands. Houston wanted VY, Reggie Bush would have also brought fans to the stands. Instead fans get to see the same old boring Texans, failing to reach .500 again. Maybe Bush or VY wouldnt have increase the win total, but I can promise you......fans would have been happier.

I just cant see Mario Williams being a premier pass rusher in the NFL. I watched him all year living in Texas, he showed me nothing.

energizerbunny
01-11-2007, 07:56 PM
No, my reasoning and rules are ALWAYS draft the special skill player, playmaker, over the blocker.
Always.

Look at the Cowboys OL of the dynasty 90's. How many premiere picks?
With Aikman, Emmitt, and Irvin (all 1st rounders), they made that OL look great. They didn't draft any Ol #2 overall, or even first round. I think 1 of their 5 starting OL was taken high.




During the cowboys dynasty they routinely had 3-4 probowlers on the offensive line each year. I don't see how you can even begin to say that those skill positions made that line better. The only reason Emmitt broke the record or even got remotely close to it was the Oline he had infront of him. And just because the cowboys got lucky with small school guys that weren't in the first round doesn't mean that should be the blue print for building a team. Thats like saying you need to find a Hall of Fame QB in the 6th round if you wanna build a dynasty.


if you still don't get it maybe you should look around and see who some of the good teams are in the NFL right now. And notice how many 1st round lineman they have on their roster. You'll notice in the NFL today you can't win games unless you win in the trenches

datchapin
01-11-2007, 08:04 PM
I'll put it like this. The way things worked out this yr. were the best possible outcome for the Texans. David Carr is not as horrible as everyone makes it out to be and if you actually break down his performance and focus solely on him and not the outcome you would see that the guy was efficient and stepped up occasionally to make plays. Considering this is his first season in this system and everyone was still getting used to it there is no reason to think that he won't keep improving. Anyone who knows about the impact of the o-line on a QB's performance will see a direct co-relation with Carr's season. Notice that his first few games he led the league in passer rating. In the 2nd game of the season the starting center went out for a few series and we saw a fumble, also a second one by a miscommunication with the center on the first drive, but C'mon they're in the RCA dome and they don't use a silent count, that was just asking for it. Also in that game they lost their starting left tackle.

I'll take this paragraph to address the D'brick argument. We picked up Spencer and Winston in the third rd. Winston who walked in with a first rd. grade was beat out by Spencer who many viewed as a top talent and his only drawback was his limited experience. However thanks to those drawbacks he landed here. Here is something few know. In OTA's Spencer went head to head with Williams on many reps. and stalemated him many times. Anybody who watched the Jets/Texans game can see D'brick did not do that with any success. While D'brick held his own against Williams he didn't have the same success against him as Spencer. Spencer also benefit's from going against Williams on a consistent basis because there are few DE's with Williams skills and while the same could have been said had D'brick and Williams ended up on the same team I won't address that, because in no way do I see that scenario happening.

Back to the Carr thing. We lost our starting LT for the season in the second game, after that minor injuries held some of our starters out for short times. However we then lost our starting center and then our RT. Each injury went down and each time Carr's performance was hindered because the line needed time to re-adjust. A case can be made where D'brick would have helped in this situation, but injuries are unpredictable and had our starting LT not gone down D'brick might not even be mentioned in this discussion. Another thing that hindered our QB was the lack of a consistent running game.

Okay I'll take this time to address the Reggie Bush crowd. (If there is any.) Our line was doing a good job opening holes however none of our backs were able to exploit those opportunities. Now many will say, oh Bush has vision and would have taken full advantage of those hole's. WRONG! There's nothing wrong with Bush's vision, but he lack's patience he would not have had much success behind our o-line as well, because while our line did open up lanes they didn't do so on a consistent basis and this would have frustrated Bush. Many people don't realize that having a veteran RB like Duece really helped Bush. Had he been here in Houston he would have no veteran to lean on. Our so called veteran who changed his name didn't even watch any of his teams games. Much less attended them. This would have put an enormous strain on Bush and he would have had very, very little success. I am glad we didn't take Bush.

Well, I stated the reason's Carr's performance was hindered, but just for argument's sake I'll throw in another little tidbit. AJ our pro-bowl receiver led the AFC in dropped passes, this does not include balls he didn't go out and get or balls taken out of his hands. He was not the only one who missed the balls. All these problems in the receiving core reflect poorly on who? Yup, David Carr. Having said that I will now proceed to address V. Young.

With all those problems Carr faced, how, really, ask yourself. How can you think that Young would have had any success here? Vince Young does not handle loosing well as evidenced after his first loss in which he refused to address the media. How would he have coped with our teams record? Okay forget all that, our team didn't use the shotgun because the coaching staff didn't trust the centers and what would Young have done? This was a major question mark before the draft and would have been really exploited here. Add to that that VY had a consistent run game and think of how his performance would have been affected without it. Oh, yeah that would give you an idea of how he would do here as well. There are a ton of reasons that I could go through as to why Young would have been a horrendous choice for us. However I won't because hopefully what I've stated so far should suffice.

In closing after this yr. there is no argument that can be made for any of those guys that would be solid. Unlike what can be done for Williams. I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. They should just recognize that each prospect went into optimal situations and should strive forward to make better impacts in the future.

datchapin
01-11-2007, 08:10 PM
Also I find it funny that the OP refuses to address any posts that have valid points, instead opting to ignore them and pressing his opinion without valid arguments. NEWSFLASH!! All of your arguments have been a++ raped and slapped with a property tag after being pwned. I wrote this because you will probably ignore my previous post which has valid points and would be to much for your feeble mind to handle. I just wanted to bring this to your attention. :twisted:

San Diego Chicken
01-11-2007, 08:19 PM
I think the Texans are taking the right approach in rebuilding their line. Go with guys in the mid-rounds, develop them and hope they can stay together for more than just a season or two. The key in building a good offensive line is continuity and consistency. It's not neccessary to have a lot of high draft picks on an offensive line, you just need guys who are consistent, work well together and get the job done.

I hope Williams pans out for Houston, I really do. He's got great potential. I wouldn't have selected him over Reggie Bush and Vince Young, but like I said, hopefully it works out for the Texans. They haven't done much over the last five years to indicate that any desision they make is the correct one, so we'll see.

njx9
01-11-2007, 11:18 PM
Another one of my basic points is the Texans are trying to put fans in the stands.

they sold out every game this year. what was your point again?

SterlingSharpe
01-12-2007, 08:34 AM
No, my reasoning and rules are ALWAYS draft the special skill player, playmaker, over the blocker.
Always.

Look at the Cowboys OL of the dynasty 90's. How many premiere picks?
With Aikman, Emmitt, and Irvin (all 1st rounders), they made that OL look great. They didn't draft any Ol #2 overall, or even first round. I think 1 of their 5 starting OL was taken high.


I have studied that Cowboys offensive line bunny. Have you? Look at all 5 of their starters and tell me where they were DRAFTED. That's what I am talking about here, the draft. Nate Newton, Stepnoski, Allen.... go look up those guys if they wree top 5 picks or how many were even first rounders.



During the cowboys dynasty they routinely had 3-4 probowlers on the offensive line each year. I don't see how you can even begin to say that those skill positions made that line better. The only reason Emmitt broke the record or even got remotely close to it was the Oline he had infront of him. And just because the cowboys got lucky with small school guys that weren't in the first round doesn't mean that should be the blue print for building a team. Thats like saying you need to find a Hall of Fame QB in the 6th round if you wanna build a dynasty.


if you still don't get it maybe you should look around and see who some of the good teams are in the NFL right now. And notice how many 1st round lineman they have on their roster. You'll notice in the NFL today you can't win games unless you win in the trenches

SterlingSharpe
01-12-2007, 08:35 AM
Another one of my basic points is the Texans are trying to put fans in the stands. Houston wanted VY, Reggie Bush would have also brought fans to the stands. Instead fans get to see the same old boring Texans, failing to reach .500 again. Maybe Bush or VY wouldnt have increase the win total, but I can promise you......fans would have been happier.

I just cant see Mario Williams being a premier pass rusher in the NFL. I watched him all year living in Texas, he showed me nothing.

That's the same thing as I think, and I saw from Mario in his last year at NC State and his season this year..... sure I am not calling him a bust yet. I think he will be a good DE probably. But he will never be as good as Peppers, as Jason Taylor. And for a DE to be chosen ahead of Vince and Bush they should be.

njx9
01-12-2007, 08:56 AM
"Never" is a mighty big word to use when so far your only actual breakdown of mario williams is that he didn't win any ACC honors before he was drafted. :roll:

SterlingSharpe
01-12-2007, 01:55 PM
"Never" is a mighty big word to use when so far your only actual breakdown of mario williams is that he didn't win any ACC honors before he was drafted. :roll:

You are right, never say never. You never know.... like Sol Rosenburg said, you never, neva, neva know. Nevah..

energizerbunny
01-12-2007, 02:50 PM
I have studied that Cowboys offensive line bunny. Have you? Look at all 5 of their starters and tell me where they were DRAFTED. That's what I am talking about here, the draft. Nate Newton, Stepnoski, Allen.... go look up those guys if they wree top 5 picks or how many were even first rounders.





I don't see the point your trying to make, Larry Allen was taken in the top of the 2nd round from a small school. He was just a freak and if he had gone to a D1 school he would have been a 1st round pick without question. And Stepnoski was a 3rd round pick as a center, . Nate Newton was a rare case as he was undrafted out of Flordia A&M but had he also played D1 he probally would have gotten drafted as well. Because scouting wasn't like it was today and many gems could be found in later rounds. Erik Williams was also a 1st day guy taken in the 3rd round from another small school.


If you look at the teams with domiant Lines in the NFL loook at how many high picks they have on them. With the combines and proday's you can't just find these gems anymore out of no where and turn them into perennial pro bowlers. You have to take them early in the draft. Because Great Lines make average players look great, but rarely if ever will good skill positions make average lines look good.

Shiver
01-12-2007, 03:00 PM
If you want evidence of the need for elite Line talent, look at last year's Super Bowl game.

Pittsburgh:

Alan Faneca
Casey Hampton
Kendall Simmons
Marvel Smith (top of the 2nd)
Jeff Hartings

Seattle:

Walter Jones
Steve Hutchinson
Marcus Tubbs
Grant Wistrom

Both teams had top-5 NFL O-lines, both teams had front sevens capable of rushing the passer as well as stopping the run. You win championships in the trenches. Every single Super Bowl team I can remember has a bevy of elite D-Line and O-Line players.

San Diego Chicken
01-12-2007, 03:34 PM
The Texans are not even close to being Super Bowl caliber right now. Super Bowl teams have elite talent throughout their rosters at nearly every position. They need to focus on just trying make the playoffs for now. While the Super Bowl should be the ultimate goal for any team, it's going to take 3, 4, maybe 5 more drafts until the Texans have that type of talent.

Shiver
01-12-2007, 03:39 PM
The Texans are not even close to being Super Bowl caliber right now. Super Bowl teams have elite talent throughout their rosters at nearly every position. They need to focus on just trying make the playoffs for now. While the Super Bowl should be the ultimate goal for any team, it's going to take 3, 4, maybe 5 more drafts until the Texans have that type of talent.


By that time, Reggie Bush's career will be half over, five years for a running back is an eternity, especially in contrast to a Defensive End. They are not close now, so that makes the case for taking a 21-year old 6'7" 290-lbs, but raw, 'End even more strong. By the time they rebuild that O-Line, and patch up the defense a bit, he will just be entering his physical prime. What would Reggie Bush have done to this organization? He wouldn't have helped them win now, and he certainly wouldn't help patch the biggest problems they have, O-Line and D-Line.

San Diego Chicken
01-12-2007, 03:50 PM
The Texans are not even close to being Super Bowl caliber right now. Super Bowl teams have elite talent throughout their rosters at nearly every position. They need to focus on just trying make the playoffs for now. While the Super Bowl should be the ultimate goal for any team, it's going to take 3, 4, maybe 5 more drafts until the Texans have that type of talent.


By that time, Reggie Bush's career will be half over, five years for a running back is an eternity, especially in contrast to a Defensive End. They are not close now, so that makes the case for taking a 21-year old 6'7" 290-lbs, but raw, 'End even more strong. By the time they rebuild that O-Line, and patch up the defense a bit, he will just be entering his physical prime. What would Reggie Bush have done to this organization? He wouldn't have helped them win now, and he certainly wouldn't help patch the biggest problems they have, O-Line and D-Line.

Bush is also 21 years old, and he's not the type of running back who wears down after five years since he avoids punishment rather than deals it out. So I really don't buy that Mario will be entering the prime of his career while Bush will be close to the end of his career (is that what you were insinuating?)

I don't think there are any cut and dry rules to the NFL draft. Should the Chargers have picked Richard Seymour over Ladainian in 2001? Seymour is as dominant a defensive player as there is but would they really have been that much closer to a Super Bowl with Seymour? But apparently there is an unwritten rule that line players are far more important than skill position players (which I don't buy). Could the Chargers have used Seymour or someone like Leonard Davis? Absolutely, the Chargers were a terrible team at the time on both lines.

Shiver
01-12-2007, 03:54 PM
I don't think there are any cut and dry rules to the NFL draft. Should the Chargers have picked Richard Seymour over Ladainian in 2001? Seymour is as dominant a defensive player as there is but would they really have been that much closer to a Super Bowl with Seymour? But apparently there is an unwritten rule that line players are far more important than skill position players (which I don't buy). Could the Chargers have used Seymour or someone like Leonard Davis? Absolutely, the Chargers were a terrible team at the time on both lines.


What has Tomlinson's individual accomplishments done for the Chargers? What about Seymour, oh yeah, he has three rings and is a perennial all-pro.

San Diego Chicken
01-12-2007, 03:56 PM
I don't think there are any cut and dry rules to the NFL draft. Should the Chargers have picked Richard Seymour over Ladainian in 2001? Seymour is as dominant a defensive player as there is but would they really have been that much closer to a Super Bowl with Seymour? But apparently there is an unwritten rule that line players are far more important than skill position players (which I don't buy). Could the Chargers have used Seymour or someone like Leonard Davis? Absolutely, the Chargers were a terrible team at the time on both lines.


What has Tomlinson's individual accomplishments done for the Chargers? What about Seymour, oh yeah, he has three rings and is a perennial all-pro.

I think you're missing the point. Would the Chargers have won three Super Bowls with Seymour instead of Tomlinson? Of course not, football doesn't work that way.

Shiver
01-12-2007, 04:06 PM
I don't think there are any cut and dry rules to the NFL draft. Should the Chargers have picked Richard Seymour over Ladainian in 2001? Seymour is as dominant a defensive player as there is but would they really have been that much closer to a Super Bowl with Seymour? But apparently there is an unwritten rule that line players are far more important than skill position players (which I don't buy). Could the Chargers have used Seymour or someone like Leonard Davis? Absolutely, the Chargers were a terrible team at the time on both lines.


What has Tomlinson's individual accomplishments done for the Chargers? What about Seymour, oh yeah, he has three rings and is a perennial all-pro.

I think you're missing the point. Would the Chargers have won three Super Bowls with Seymour instead of Tomlinson? Of course not, football doesn't work that way.

No, but one of the greatest of all time backs hasn't propelled his team to a championship. He lost three years, fighting for a lost cause, for a team that wasn't very good. Was Seymour the single reason for the Super Bowl dynasty? No. But it shows the idealogy of the perennial top flight teams. Teams like New England, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh build from the inside out. The Patriots have spent four of the past six seasons with drafting a line player.

As for Reggie Bush, his career won't be winding down, but it is much shorter than Williams. A 15-year franchise Defensive End is much more important than a 8-10 year 3DRB/Slot Receiver. The Texans' top two needs were O-Line/D-Line, and Gary Kubiak, who knows Running Backs, chose to pass on Bush. It was his call, he has won championships. Bush doesn't fit the ZBS well, nor did he fit the Texans' needs either. If he can't average over 3.6 YPC, and no 20+ yard runs in New Orleans, how would he have performed in Houston!? :shock:

San Diego Chicken
01-12-2007, 04:28 PM
I don't think there are any cut and dry rules to the NFL draft. Should the Chargers have picked Richard Seymour over Ladainian in 2001? Seymour is as dominant a defensive player as there is but would they really have been that much closer to a Super Bowl with Seymour? But apparently there is an unwritten rule that line players are far more important than skill position players (which I don't buy). Could the Chargers have used Seymour or someone like Leonard Davis? Absolutely, the Chargers were a terrible team at the time on both lines.


What has Tomlinson's individual accomplishments done for the Chargers? What about Seymour, oh yeah, he has three rings and is a perennial all-pro.

I think you're missing the point. Would the Chargers have won three Super Bowls with Seymour instead of Tomlinson? Of course not, football doesn't work that way.

No, but one of the greatest of all time backs hasn't propelled his team to a championship. He lost three years, fighting for a lost cause, for a team that wasn't very good. Was Seymour the single reason for the Super Bowl dynasty? No. But it shows the idealogy of the perennial top flight teams. Teams like New England, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh build from the inside out. The Patriots have spent four of the past six seasons with drafting a line player.

As for Reggie Bush, his career won't be winding down, but it is much shorter than Williams. A 15-year franchise Defensive End is much more important than a 8-10 year 3DRB/Slot Receiver. The Texans' top two needs were O-Line/D-Line, and Gary Kubiak, who knows Running Backs, chose to pass on Bush. It was his call, he has won championships. Bush doesn't fit the ZBS well, nor did he fit the Texans' needs either. If he can't average over 3.6 YPC, and no 20+ yard runs in New Orleans, how would he have performed in Houston!? :shock:

I think you're overstating things a bit. All three of the teams you named have franchise QB's (two of whom were 1st round draft picks). The Patriots spent a first rounder on a running back just this past year, so they understand the value of a good one. And the centerpiece of the Eagles' recent run has been a very Bush-like running back/weapon. Obviously all three teams have great lines but those are built over time. Also, Philadelphia's defensive line selections have not been overly successful, they've used free agency to strenghten their defensive line more than the draft. There are many different ways you can build a winner, again, there are no rules that are set in stone.

Don't be so quick to write out these guys whole careers yet. Both Williams and Bush have the potential to be big time players. Bush's YPC is exactly what Ladainian Tomlinson's was in his rookie season. Eventually Bush will grow into an every down back role just like Tiki Barber and Brian Westbrook have.

Shiver
01-12-2007, 04:48 PM
Bush's YPC is exactly what Ladainian Tomlinson's was in his rookie season.

This would be valid, if New Orleans didn't have a very good O-Line and Deuce McAllister was outclassing him as a running back. Marshall Faulk broke down Bush on NFL Total Access, he showed multiple times where Bush broke plays outside, when he could've cut back for big yards. Since that is the antithesis of what is needed from a ZBS runner, it isn't really a surprise that Bush said that the Texans were never really interested in him, prior to the draft.

Eventually Bush will grow into an every down back role just like Tiki Barber and Brian Westbrook have.

Maybe, or he could be what he has been for New Orleans, primarily a slot receiver who runs end arounds.

2drama
01-12-2007, 04:58 PM
The texans need all what they can get get :lol: :lol:
i would have said to trade down for more picks

If i was playing madden franchise mode
as a GM carr would have been traded
my options in the draft would have been

1-VY would have been picked
or
(2) trade down for more picks to fill team need & holes

i voted for VY

Shiver
01-12-2007, 05:00 PM
The texans need all what they can get get :lol: :lol:
i would have said to trade down for more picks

The problem with that is;

1. No one wanted to trade up.
2. The Texans couldn't have aquired Williams in a trade down.

2drama
01-12-2007, 05:03 PM
The texans need all what they can get get :lol: :lol:
i would have said to trade down for more picks

The problem with that is;

1. No one wanted to trade up.
2. The Texans couldn't have aquired Williams in a trade down.


shiver who was the Number 2 DE in that draft

San Diego Chicken
01-12-2007, 05:17 PM
Bush's YPC is exactly what Ladainian Tomlinson's was in his rookie season.

This would be valid, if New Orleans didn't have a very good O-Line and Deuce McAllister was outclassing him as a running back. Marshall Faulk broke down Bush on NFL Total Access, he showed multiple times where Bush broke plays outside, when he could've cut back for big yards. Since that is the antithesis of what is needed from a ZBS runner, it isn't really a surprise that Bush said that the Texans were never really interested in him, prior to the draft.

Eventually Bush will grow into an every down back role just like Tiki Barber and Brian Westbrook have.

Maybe, or he could be what he has been for New Orleans, primarily a slot receiver who runs end arounds.

I'm not sure New Orleans has a "very good O-line" just yet. They've improved over the last half of the season but they're about average at run blocking right now. And come on, McAllister is a veteran former pro bowler who gets twice as many opportunities as Bush does right now. Bush is a 21 year old rookie. He's still learning the intangibles needed to become an all around running back. He was still the best player in the draft last year and he still has the potential to become the best player in the draft. Let's not totally write him off just yet, OK? Especially when we're being extremely cautious and patient in regards to one Mario Williams.

L6
01-12-2007, 06:02 PM
Defense doesnt win championships, good teams do.

Note i still think they made the right pick, i just hate it when people say stupid things like "defense wins championships" or "you just have to run and stop the run".

energizerbunny
01-12-2007, 06:10 PM
I'm not sure New Orleans has a "very good O-line" just yet. They've improved over the last half of the season but they're about average at run blocking right now. And come on, McAllister is a veteran former pro bowler who gets twice as many opportunities as Bush does right now. Bush is a 21 year old rookie. He's still learning the intangibles needed to become an all around running back. He was still the best player in the draft last year and he still has the potential to become the best player in the draft. Let's not totally write him off just yet, OK? Especially when we're being extremely cautious and patient in regards to one Mario Williams.


Rbs are expected to have the biggest impacts as rookies though and most rookie Rbs are very hot from the start. With short RB careers they are expected to be esstentially hitting their prime after their rookie years.

The reason everyone is being so patient with Mario is because of his insane physical talent and the fact that most Dlineman don't start hitting their prime until they are 26-27.. And by that time the Texans should be a good team where as in 5-6 years Reggie will be ending his prime

ncbigbody
01-12-2007, 06:15 PM
Another one of my basic points is the Texans are trying to put fans in the stands.

they sold out every game this year. what was your point again?

Ok, well watching many of their games this year, i still saw tons of empty seats. Take that for what it is.

And dont make your remarks like a little *****.

njx9
01-12-2007, 07:02 PM
Ok, well watching many of their games this year, i still saw tons of empty seats. Take that for what it is.

if the tickets were sold, and are sold again next year, it's unlikely the team cares. this is a business and they likely don't lose much money because a few people didn't show up.

And dont make your remarks like a little ***********.

:roll: grow a slightly thicker skin and you won't have to worry about it. or just cry about it.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 12:56 AM
I'm not sure New Orleans has a "very good O-line" just yet. They've improved over the last half of the season but they're about average at run blocking right now. And come on, McAllister is a veteran former pro bowler who gets twice as many opportunities as Bush does right now.

If anything McAllister hasn't been used enough.

Bush is a 21 year old rookie. He's still learning the intangibles needed to become an all around running back.

Yet every other Running Back, from the '06 class, has outclassed Bush as pure Running Backs. This is the one position in which instant production isn't just the usual, it's expected. The position is predicated a lot on instincts and god-given talent. There isn't a lot of precedent for a 'great' Running Back struggling in his first year, then becoming an elite back. That is why he may only be what he is, or I should say what he was down the stretch for the Saints. Most of his productive "rushing" stats have actually came on end around from the slot receiver position.


He was still the best player in the draft last year

According to most, but not all.

and he still has the potential to become the best player in the draft.

Hardly, that would belong to Vince Young.

Let's not totally write him off just yet, OK?

He will improve, but he won't be "the next Faulk" as conjectured by ESPN.

Especially when we're being extremely cautious and patient in regards to one Mario Williams.

That's the difference; his position has precedent for learning curve, Bruce Smith for example. Running Back is the antithesis of this. Besides;Multiple games he had an impact, without actually getting the stats. The Jets, Raiders and Jaguars games for example. As is always the case with the position. He started out slow, but finished strong. He just needs to develop his technique.

San Diego Chicken
01-13-2007, 07:05 AM
I'm not sure New Orleans has a "very good O-line" just yet. They've improved over the last half of the season but they're about average at run blocking right now. And come on, McAllister is a veteran former pro bowler who gets twice as many opportunities as Bush does right now.

If anything McAllister hasn't been used enough.

Bush is a 21 year old rookie. He's still learning the intangibles needed to become an all around running back.

Yet every other Running Back, from the '06 class, has outclassed Bush as pure Running Backs. This is the one position in which instant production isn't just the usual, it's expected. The position is predicated a lot on instincts and god-given talent. There isn't a lot of precedent for a 'great' Running Back struggling in his first year, then becoming an elite back. That is why he may only be what he is, or I should say what he was down the stretch for the Saints. Most of his productive "rushing" stats have actually came on end around from the slot receiver position.


He was still the best player in the draft last year

According to most, but not all.

and he still has the potential to become the best player in the draft.

Hardly, that would belong to Vince Young.

Let's not totally write him off just yet, OK?

He will improve, but he won't be "the next Faulk" as conjectured by ESPN.

Especially when we're being extremely cautious and patient in regards to one Mario Williams.

That's the difference; his position has precedent for learning curve, Bruce Smith for example. Running Back is the antithesis of this. Besides;Multiple games he had an impact, without actually getting the stats. The Jets, Raiders and Jaguars games for example. As is always the case with the position. He started out slow, but finished strong. He just needs to develop his technique.


Hmm, well, I'm not entirely sure that there is NO precedent for a rookie back "struggling" in his rushing numbers and then becoming elite at his position. I'll leave it up to you to do the research, but there have been situations in the past where a rookie running backs have not put up eye-popping rushing statistics but ultimately went on to have long and productive (in some cases hall of fame) careers.

In short I would rather judge these players by what they do on an individual basis rather than where the so called positional precedent dictates they should be at in their development. I just think that it's a really faulty way to try to evaluate a player and I'll give you a simple example of why using your last paragraph: the inverse of your Bush statement would indicate that very few, if any defensive ends have made an major impact in their rookie seasons. Is that the truth? No, far from it in fact (again, do your own research in this regard). Are we then to assume Williams won't be successful? Of course not, because not all players are created equal, and not all situations are created equal.

Again, I think I'm better off than you will be by not assigning a certain expectation simply because a guy plays this position or that position. I sense a bit of an agenda on your part because you assign completely different standards to two players that are both highly regarded rookies out of college, both very young even by NFL rookie standards,

OzTitan
01-13-2007, 07:29 AM
I vote VY - having the chance to draft a home town hero is rare enough, let alone a home town hero with the potential VY has. I think VY was a once in a franchise's history type of opportunity given said potential and home town connection, and their reasoning for not taking that opportunity, David Carr, is now looking less and less plausible.

josh07039
01-13-2007, 09:00 AM
I vote VY - having the chance to draft a home town hero is rare enough, let alone a home town hero with the potential VY has. I think VY was a once in a franchise's history type of opportunity given said potential and home town connection, and their reasoning for not taking that opportunity, David Carr, is now looking less and less plausible.I agree, just on a PR/ticket selling standpoint, Vince Young is the pick, obviously his talent is also a huge factor, but he would have been too huge for words at least until he played behind that O-line.

P-L
01-13-2007, 11:40 AM
Marshall Faulk didn't average more than 4.1 ypc until his 6th year in the league. He also averaged 3.7 and 3.0 in his second and third year respectively. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 in his first two seasons. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 in his rookie year. O.J. Simpson only got 3.9 in his rookie year. So I'd say there is plenty of precedent to RB starting out slow and picking it up.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 02:34 PM
They pick it up, Reggie will improve. However; I don't see Reggie Bush ever becoming a better pure runner than he is a slot receiver who runs end around plays. Remember, most of his explosive runs came from the slot position, not from the backfield. I think everyone needs to look at him, outside the context of just a Running Back. He's an offensive weapon, he's the Excalibur to Sean Payton's Arthur. :lol: I just don't see him being good enough to warrant bypassing the Texans' biggest need by far, and a almost as good of a prospect, per consensus.

SterlingSharpe
01-13-2007, 05:00 PM
Marshall Faulk didn't average more than 4.1 ypc until his 6th year in the league. He also averaged 3.7 and 3.0 in his second and third year respectively. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 in his first two seasons. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 in his rookie year. O.J. Simpson only got 3.9 in his rookie year. So I'd say there is plenty of precedent to RB starting out slow and picking it up.


WOW, someone bringing some FACTS to the table. Thanks amigo.

Reggie Bush was HUGE in opening up that Saints offense and if anyone doesn't see that, they know nothing about the game of football.

Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't. Who's the difference-maker? It ain't Mario. GREAT POLL ACTION THOUGH..... good activity.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-13-2007, 05:06 PM
Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't.


Two of them played at top programs who basically take their pick of the top recruits in the country... one didn't.

SterlingSharpe
01-13-2007, 05:08 PM
Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't.


Two of them played at top programs who basically take their pick of the top recruits in the country... one didn't.

Good point Chris.... so those two not only ACCOMPLISHED special things in NCAA, but they weren't flukes.... they ALWAYS had been special athletes. Athletes who backed it up at the next level.... and dominated again.

P-L
01-13-2007, 05:23 PM
Marshall Faulk didn't average more than 4.1 ypc until his 6th year in the league. He also averaged 3.7 and 3.0 in his second and third year respectively. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 in his first two seasons. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 in his rookie year. O.J. Simpson only got 3.9 in his rookie year. So I'd say there is plenty of precedent to RB starting out slow and picking it up.


WOW, someone bringing some FACTS to the table. Thanks amigo.

Reggie Bush was HUGE in opening up that Saints offense and if anyone doesn't see that, they know nothing about the game of football.

Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't. Who's the difference-maker? It ain't Mario. GREAT POLL ACTION THOUGH..... good activity.

Well facts also show that Curtis Enis averaged 3.7 in his first year, Rashaan Salaam averaged 3.6, and Lawrence Phillips averaged 3.3, so it does work both ways...

Shiver
01-13-2007, 06:03 PM
Marshall Faulk didn't average more than 4.1 ypc until his 6th year in the league. He also averaged 3.7 and 3.0 in his second and third year respectively. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 in his first two seasons. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 in his rookie year. O.J. Simpson only got 3.9 in his rookie year. So I'd say there is plenty of precedent to RB starting out slow and picking it up.


WOW, someone bringing some FACTS to the table. Thanks amigo.

Reggie Bush was HUGE in opening up that Saints offense and if anyone doesn't see that, they know nothing about the game of football.

Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't. Who's the difference-maker? It ain't Mario. GREAT POLL ACTION THOUGH..... good activity.

Well facts also show that Curtis Enis averaged 3.7 in his first year, Rashaan Salaam averaged 3.6, and Lawrence Phillips averaged 3.3, so it does work both ways...

Or;

Gale Sayers

+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1965 chi | 14 | 166 867 5.2 14 | 29 507 17.5 6 |

Barry Sanders

+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1989 det | 15 | 280 1470 5.2 14 | 24 282 11.8 0 |

Tony Dorsett

+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1977 dal | 14 | 208 1007 4.8 12 | 29 273 9.4 1 |


Although I am a bit surprised by the examples you gave. It can go both ways. And I feel it's a bit different as the feature back, as most of those were, in contrast to the role Bush has played this year. He hasn't made the explosive runs you would expect from the 'change of pace' back, with explosive speed, to the power back.

The thing about Bush, as a Tailback, he is averaging about 4.5 Y.P.C in "wide" runs, and 2.6 Y.P.C inside. A lot of those wide runs come on end around plays, from the slot position. It's been something Sean Payton has done all season, utilizing Bush coming around, and Deuce up the gut, to keep defenses honest.

P-L
01-13-2007, 06:19 PM
The problem with the examples that I gave were that I couldn't think of, off the top of my head, a RB that started his career off as a change of pace back, that was either a bust or a hall of famer and fit my arguements. Bush is a rare exception in that regard, whereas the majority of RB (especially highly drafted ones) are thrust into the starting role immediately.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 06:21 PM
Personally I don't think it's appropriate to classify Reggie Bush as just a Running Back.

P-L
01-13-2007, 06:27 PM
Well I don't think he's just a RB either. That's why when his career is over with, I don't think it'd be fair to judge him just based on his ypc or rushing TD. Reggie Bush is more of an all around player. As we've seen this year, he's had an impact in multiple phases of the game. If the Saints keep using him like they are, Reggie could set receiving records for a RB. Although, like we've agreed it wouldn't be fair to give him those records as a "Running Back."

Eaglez.Fan
01-13-2007, 06:45 PM
I'd take Mario pause not

Reggie is the guy

SterlingSharpe
01-13-2007, 08:21 PM
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-13-2007, 08:28 PM
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....

Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so ******* premature.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-13-2007, 08:30 PM
Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't.


Two of them played at top programs who basically take their pick of the top recruits in the country... one didn't.

Good point Chris.... so those two not only ACCOMPLISHED special things in NCAA, but they weren't flukes.... they ALWAYS had been special athletes. Athletes who backed it up at the next level.... and dominated again.

I don't get what you're saying here. I was getting at the fact that Bush had a Heisman QB, a top-5 O-Line, great WRs, and an excellent defense other than last year. NC State has the D-Line, and that's it as far as I know.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 08:30 PM
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....

Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so *********** premature.

QFT

Also; I love the 'teams don't game plan Defensive Ends,' that is quite possibly the most moronic thing I have ever read.

ncbigbody
01-13-2007, 08:31 PM
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....

Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so *********** premature.

Vince Young's game is not padded with stats, its padded with wins. Thats what he does. Talk to me when Mario helps the Texans win games.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-13-2007, 08:37 PM
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....

Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so *********** premature.

Vince Young's game is not padded with stats, its padded with wins. Thats what he does. Talk to me when Mario helps the Texans win games.


He sure had alot to do with that game against Jacksonville, where the offense couldn't move the ball at all, and the D/ST scored 3 times. And he sure played great in a game that would have gotten them in the playoffs if they won. 42% completions with 0 TD and 2 INT is stuff of legend. He did everything he could.

P-L
01-13-2007, 08:39 PM
The rule (whether we agree with it or not) is that QB get too much credit when they win, and too much blame when they lose. For some reason, Vince Young is the exception to the rule. He's gets too much credit when he wins, but no blame when he loses.

ncbigbody
01-13-2007, 08:41 PM
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....

Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so *********** premature.

Vince Young's game is not padded with stats, its padded with wins. Thats what he does. Talk to me when Mario helps the Texans win games.


He sure had alot to do with that game against Jacksonville, where the offense couldn't move the ball at all, and the D/ST scored 3 times. And he sure played great in a game that would have gotten them in the playoffs if they won. 42% completions with 0 TD and 2 INT is stuff of legend. He did everything he could.

He won 6 games in a row with the No Talent Tennessee Titans. You can point out his stats in the few games he lost as a starter. But Vince Young is rookie of the year if I do recall correctly.

P-L
01-13-2007, 08:42 PM
Rookie of the Year is all about media hype. The award it self means nothing.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 08:43 PM
The rule (whether we agree with it or not) is that QB get too much credit when they win, and too much blame when they lose.


Context is something some people just don't understand.

njx9
01-13-2007, 08:48 PM
The rule (whether we agree with it or not) is that QB get too much credit when they win, and too much blame when they lose.


Context is something some people just don't understand.

seriously? on this site?

=P

ncbigbody
01-13-2007, 08:49 PM
VY. 2750 total yds. 19 total td's 12 int's. 8-5 as starter.

Of course its premature to decide if Mario is going to be good. But dont say Vince Young has'nt already made a statement in this league.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 08:50 PM
He's been better than expected, but he doesn't deserve credit for three of those "wins" he has. That is all anybody is saying. I am a big fan of Vince Young.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 08:52 PM
By the way; the two impressive Reggie Bush runs, were the antithesis of what is required the ZBS. I cannot stress that enough, Kubiak was never interested in a player with his running style. There is a reason Mike Shannahan thought Laurence Maroney was the best RB in the class, because he can hit the holes with authority.

ncbigbody
01-13-2007, 08:54 PM
He's been better than expected, but he doesn't deserve credit for three of those "wins" he has. That is all anybody is saying. I am a big fan of Vince Young.

Which games?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-13-2007, 08:56 PM
Yeah I'm as big a VY fan as anyone, his major love fest is still a little premature though. And I know he's an excellent runner, and he had a great rookie year, but I don't care how great of a runner you are, if you have a Pass TD:INT ratio below one, that ain't good. It isn't bad for a rookie, as Matt Leinart also had below one, but if it doesn't improve in the next few years, he can't be considered a great QB. I doubt he has as easy a time running next year anyway. Teams will probably look at tape and devise a way to defend it better. If they can force him to stay in the pocket and pass, he'll need to prove he can consistently do that well. Which he still hasn't done.

SterlingSharpe
01-13-2007, 08:58 PM
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....

Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so *********** premature.

Vince Young's game is not padded with stats, its padded with wins. Thats what he does. Talk to me when Mario helps the Texans win games.

EXACTLY.
Just WIN baby...... how are the Texans doing this year with Mario making a difference?
This draft had tons of impact players in it, but Mario was the biggest reach at #1 I have ever seen since Steve Entman.... but I am sure most of you kids have never heard of him.... just go back 12 months... last January, even February... he was penciled in to Green Bay at #5 in a lot of mocks, some lower.... then all of a sudden as a result of his impressive COMBINE he became a top 3 pick..... and then under the table to the suprise of ALL of us, the Texans broke the heart of their city and took Mario Williams. He was never a #1 overall talent. Still isn't. Never will be.

SterlingSharpe
01-13-2007, 08:59 PM
He's been better than expected, but he doesn't deserve credit for three of those "wins" he has. That is all anybody is saying. I am a big fan of Vince Young.

Who deserves the credit? Jeff Fisher who was about to be fired before Vince straightened them out?
Travis Henry?
Those great WRs on the Texans? Name those great WRs.... the U of Texas has a better group of WRs than the Texans.

P-L
01-13-2007, 09:01 PM
VY. 2750 total yds. 19 total td's 12 int's. 8-5 as starter.

Of course its premature to decide if Mario is going to be good. But dont say Vince Young has'nt already made a statement in this league.

Certainly he's had an impact. And he has played better than his numbers have shown. But he hasn't played uber-amazing or anything. He isn't dominating and playing like a franchise QB up to this point. Sure he's been good in spurts, but Mario Williams has been good at times too. Did Vince Young have the better year? Obviously. Was it so much better that we know for a fact he was a better pick than Williams? No, not at all.

P-L
01-13-2007, 09:03 PM
By the way; the two impressive Reggie Bush runs, were the antithesis of what is required the ZBS. I cannot stress that enough, Kubiak was never interested in a player with his running style. There is a reason Mike Shannahan thought Laurence Maroney was the best RB in the class, because he can hit the holes with authority.

Why do all the Bush lovers just ignore the fact that he is the complete opposite of a ZBS runner? Multiple people have brought this up in this thread, but everyone seems to ignore it or respond with something along the lines of "OMG!!! He is like so good!!!" It's really frustrating.

ncbigbody
01-13-2007, 09:04 PM
VY. 2750 total yds. 19 total td's 12 int's. 8-5 as starter.

Of course its premature to decide if Mario is going to be good. But dont say Vince Young has'nt already made a statement in this league.

Certainly he's had an impact. And he has played better than his numbers have shown. But he hasn't played uber-amazing or anything. He isn't dominating and playing like a franchise QB up to this point. Sure he's been good in spurts, but Mario Williams has been good at times too. Did Vince Young have the better year? Obviously. Was it so much better that we know for a fact he was a better pick than Williams? No, not at all.

True. I will give Mario one more year to prove he deserved to be chosen over the likes of some great players. If he doesnt post at least 8 sacks next year, I will be seriously disapointed.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 09:13 PM
He's been better than expected, but he doesn't deserve credit for three of those "wins" he has. That is all anybody is saying. I am a big fan of Vince Young.

Which games?


The game against Philadelphia, Jacksonville and Indianapolis.

ncbigbody
01-13-2007, 09:33 PM
He's been better than expected, but he doesn't deserve credit for three of those "wins" he has. That is all anybody is saying. I am a big fan of Vince Young.

Which games?


The game against Philadelphia, Jacksonville and Indianapolis.

Against Philly: 150 total yds 1 td, no TO's, game management.
Against the Jag's: 89 total yds, no td's no TO's. Not a great game, but he didnt make the big mistake.
Against Indy: 241 total yds, 2 td's 2 int's. One of the Int's was bogus, he played fairly well that game, I feel he won that game.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-13-2007, 09:43 PM
He's been better than expected, but he doesn't deserve credit for three of those "wins" he has. That is all anybody is saying. I am a big fan of Vince Young.

Which games?


The game against Philadelphia, Jacksonville and Indianapolis.

Against Philly: 150 total yds 1 td, no TO's, game management.
Against the Jag's: 89 total yds, no td's no TO's. Not a great game, but he didnt make the big mistake.
Against Indy: 241 total yds, 2 td's 2 int's. One of the Int's was bogus, he played fairly well that game, I feel he won that game.

I don't remember alot about the Eagles game, so I can't comment on that.

Jacksonville game, he didn't make the big mistake, I'll give him that, but he didn't really do anything either. His Defense and Special teams won that game.
Indy game, I don't think he won it, but at the same time, he didn't really do anything to lose it either. He needed the 60 yard FG, but they won by 3, so it woulda been OT if not for that. That one was a push.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 10:26 PM
The Eagles game, Travis Henry and McNabb's injury were the reason for the victories. The Colts game was Rob Bironas and again, Travis Henry.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 10:27 PM
How about that Reggie Bush fumble... :lol: He sure showed his rare ability to make big mistakes. First the lateral in the Rose Bowl, the fumble against Pittsburgh and he gave the Eagles life.

I jest, a bit. But if you praise him for a couple good plays, then by precedent I can trash for him for a couple awful plays.

draftguru151
01-13-2007, 10:29 PM
Travis Henry ran for over 1000 yards, all when Young was starting. That sure does help. Young is so ridiculously overrated.

P-L
01-13-2007, 10:31 PM
How about that Reggie Bush fumble... :lol: He sure showed his rare ability to make big mistakes. First the lateral in the Rose Bowl, the fumble against Pittsburgh and he gave the Eagles life.

I jest, a bit. But if you praise him for a couple good plays, then by precedent I can trash for him for a couple awful plays.

I really wouldn't bring up college plays when talking to Bush supporters. But I'll keep that our little secret.

smittyjs
01-13-2007, 10:34 PM
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....

Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so *********** premature.

Vince Young's game is not padded with stats, its padded with wins. Thats what he does. Talk to me when Mario helps the Texans win games.


He sure had alot to do with that game against Jacksonville, where the offense couldn't move the ball at all, and the D/ST scored 3 times. And he sure played great in a game that would have gotten them in the playoffs if they won. 42% completions with 0 TD and 2 INT is stuff of legend. He did everything he could.Yeah the jacksonville game wasn't great, but then again we had the ball three tmes in the second and threw the ball two times in the second half.

Shiver
01-13-2007, 10:38 PM
How about that Reggie Bush fumble... :lol: He sure showed his rare ability to make big mistakes. First the lateral in the Rose Bowl, the fumble against Pittsburgh and he gave the Eagles life.

I jest, a bit. But if you praise him for a couple good plays, then by precedent I can trash for him for a couple awful plays.

I really wouldn't bring up college plays when talking to Bush supporters. But I'll keep that our little secret.

Oh no, bring it on. Then I can play the he only dominated in the weaksauce Pac-10 card.