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thebow305
08-19-2007, 05:35 PM
Who do you believe will be the top Hybrid Prospect for the 3-4 Outside Linebacker pass rushing position for the 2008 Draft?

Derrick Harvey, Vernon Gholston, Shawn Crable, Brian Cushing, Tommy Blake, or Quentin Groves? Any others?

There are a lot, and especially if they all declare (the juniors), this could be interesting. Maybe the deepest group ever, for appropriately the deepest draft ever possibly.


Blake, Gholston, Groves, and Harvey are the ones making the jump in the NFL, Cushing and Crable are already playing the position now at the collegiate level. (FYI)

I like Cushing myself, since he already has made the jump as well as having the perfect body type and skill set needed to excel at this positon at the next level. I feel Vernon Gholston may have the most upside though and best chance to rise up draft boards in April.

Because this is my favorite position in the draft and the one I find most intriguing, I would like to get everyone elses thoughts on this as well.

TACKLE
08-19-2007, 09:54 PM
I think come draft time Quentin Groves will emerge as the top DE/OLB prospect. He has been very productive throughout his career. Not to mention he runs in the 4.4 range and at 6'3 250 which is absolutely freakish. I think he is the most athletic out of the group and after the combine could be considered a Top 10 pick.

Vikes99ej
08-19-2007, 09:57 PM
I like Gholston and Cushing the best. Cushing's already done it.

BrownsTown
08-19-2007, 10:27 PM
I know I'm a homer, but Gholston is basically MADE for the hybrid position. He basically already plays it too, so the transition will be easy.

fenikz
08-19-2007, 10:40 PM
Harvey most definitely, he is a freak

Mr. Stiller
08-19-2007, 11:33 PM
I'm going Gholston..

the kid is constantly in the backfield and knows how to slide in coverage.

He's stronger and faster than everyone not named Quentin Groves.

I think Groves will fall because he's nonexistant against the run game.

I pick:

Gholston
Blake
Harvey
Cushing (I think he's more comfortable at 4-3 SLB)
Quentin Groves
Shawn Crable (I think He's like Vrabel, and I think he'd be better inside a 3-4)

P-L
08-20-2007, 01:36 AM
If he declares, Vernon Gholston.

princefielder28
08-20-2007, 08:51 AM
Tommy Blake = Animal

goblue8888
08-20-2007, 10:14 AM
I'm going Gholston..

the kid is constantly in the backfield and knows how to slide in coverage.

He's stronger and faster than everyone not named Quentin Groves.

I think Groves will fall because he's nonexistant against the run game.

I pick:

Gholston
Blake
Harvey
Cushing (I think he's more comfortable at 4-3 SLB)
Quentin Groves
Shawn Crable (I think He's like Vrabel, and I think he'd be better inside a 3-4)


No way crable plays inside linebacker at 6ft6 255 pounds plus he runs low 4.5's in the forty. Teams are going want hime rushing the passer with his size ,length and speed.

Mr. Stiller
08-20-2007, 10:44 AM
No way crable plays inside linebacker at 6ft6 255 pounds plus he runs low 4.5's in the forty. Teams are going want hime rushing the passer with his size ,length and speed.

Some may, and some may think he's got what you want at Buck in a 3-4. A Huge thumper with ability in coverage.

goblue8888
08-20-2007, 10:50 AM
Some may, and some may think he's got what you want at Buck in a 3-4. A Huge thumper with ability in coverage.



I just dont think he has the lower body strength you need to take on the blocks he would have to as an inside linebacker.

Mr. Stiller
08-20-2007, 11:56 AM
I just dont think he has the lower body strength you need to take on the blocks he would have to as an inside linebacker.

Thats also something he can work on. I see him being in a Mike Vrabel role, Capable of running outside but being better inside. Thats just what I see. Who konws he may get drafted as a 4-3 SLB and this point is moot.

thetedginnshow
08-20-2007, 12:10 PM
I love Gholston, Cushing, and Blake. Of course, I think in the NFL only Gholston would truly be a hybrid of those three and the other two would have to simply resort to the 3-4, but I think it'd be a waste of all three's talents if they weren't either in the 3-4 or some sort of hybrid system like the Ravens.

SenorGato
08-20-2007, 03:24 PM
Gholston
Groves
Blake
Crable
Harvey

Those 5 are the elite. All have the potential to grade out on the Ware/Merriman level.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
08-20-2007, 03:45 PM
Gholston seems better with his hands onthe ground as a 4-3 DE. He seems more fluid and more natural at it.

theogt
08-20-2007, 04:29 PM
If they were all to be available right now I'd take Blake or Groves -- principally because they have more experience and has been productive over at least 2 seasons. Out of those two, Groves is a much better athlete that's played in a tougher conference.

If Harvey or Gholston continue to improve they may takeover the top spot, but I see Harvey as more of a pure DE.

gator3guy
08-20-2007, 04:38 PM
I voted Gholston cuz he reminds me of Merriman in college, but Tommy Blake looks like a perfect fit. He's got a perfect build. At 6'3 255 he's built like a rock, he's athletic enough to cover in space, and we all know he can rush the passer. Groves, I'll have to see more of but the few games I watched he was inconsistent. (Not to take this off topic but just think how much better Auburn would be if Stanley McClover stayed. He and Groves would be seniors terrorizing OLines from both sides.)

therock6000
08-20-2007, 05:14 PM
one name that hasn't been mentioned is matt shaughnessy of wisconsin...at
6'6" he might be better off trying to fill out his frame and playing with his hand on the ground, but the bottom line is that he straight can get to the QB

DChess
08-20-2007, 05:57 PM
i like gholsten, but groves isnt far behind.

would do an explanation, but not in the mood to type

thebow305
08-20-2007, 06:14 PM
I love Gholston, Cushing, and Blake. Of course, I think in the NFL only Gholston would truly be a hybrid of those three and the other two would have to simply resort to the 3-4, but I think it'd be a waste of all three's talents if they weren't either in the 3-4 or some sort of hybrid system like the Ravens.

Agreed. Just as I think that a 4-3 team shouldn't have drafted Carriker. Although he can be a good 4-3 tackle, he would be a Pro-Bowl 3-4 end. The Rams were just gonna take the BPA on defense because they flat out sucked on D last year.

goblue8888
08-20-2007, 06:29 PM
Thats also something he can work on. I see him being in a Mike Vrabel role, Capable of running outside but being better inside. Thats just what I see. Who konws he may get drafted as a 4-3 SLB and this point is moot.

The Michigan stregth coaches have focused on his lower body for 5 years and although he has improved, he still has chicken legs.

mqtirishfan
08-20-2007, 07:00 PM
I'm going with Graves because of his pass-rushing skills.

However, I think they'll all be nothing compared to Everson Griffen in a few years.

thebow305
08-21-2007, 12:28 AM
For those who voted for "Other," who would you have in there?

I would say Chris Ellis from Va Tech is one on the outside looking in right now.

OhioState
08-21-2007, 08:42 AM
i voted for Gholston simply because the man is huge, fast, and probably the strongest of all of these. I love Gholston and think that he will have an amazing year and will rise up draft boards into maybe the top 10-15

thebow305
08-21-2007, 02:52 PM
i voted for Gholston simply because the man is huge, fast, and probably the strongest of all of these. I love Gholston and think that he will have an amazing year and will rise up draft boards into maybe the top 10-15

You're not a homer or anything.

Just messin with you... I agree completely though.

Mr. Stiller
08-21-2007, 04:26 PM
3-4 WOLB:

Vernon Gholston
Quentin Groves
Derrick Harvey
Tommy Blake
Chris Ellis
Gunheim Greyson
Jeremy Thompson

3-4 SOLB:

Phillip Merling
Kenny Iwebema
Darrell Robertson
Chase Ortiz
Chris Harrington
Adamm Oliver
Brian Johnston


IMO.

etk
08-22-2007, 12:19 AM
Tommy Blake is a man beast. So fast around the edge, kinda reminds me of Joey Porter. He's my pick.

draftguru151
08-22-2007, 08:20 AM
3-4 WOLB:

Vernon Gholston
Quentin Groves
Derrick Harvey
Tommy Blake
Chris Ellis
Gunheim Greyson
Jeremy Thompson

3-4 SOLB:

Phillip Merling
Kenny Iwebema
Darrell Robertson
Chase Ortiz
Chris Harrington
Adamm Oliver
Brian Johnston


IMO.

What makes you rank certain guys as WLB or SLB?

thetedginnshow
08-22-2007, 08:37 AM
Just so you know, his name is Greyson Gunheim. And yes, he's a beast. Not quite on the that top tier level, but he should make for a nice mid-round sleeper provided he stays healthy.

Mr. Stiller
08-22-2007, 11:45 AM
What makes you rank certain guys as WLB or SLB?

Size vs. Agility.. I ranked the better Premier athletes for WOLB and the Stronger and possibly Slower guys for SOLB..

Do I think some guys could interchange? Certainly.. I think Harvey/Gholston will be tough no matter where they lineup. I just have that...

Offensive Left side/Defensive Right Side: Better athletes
Offensive Right Side/ Defensive Left Side: Bigger more powerful types.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 11:59 AM
What makes you rank certain guys as WLB or SLB?

Basically,

The strongside backer needs to be bigger and stronger due to them having to play the run and be on the dominant side of the offense lined up opposite the TE. Of course he needs to rush the passer but you look for a guy who can beat the TE's block and stop the run.

The weakside backer needs to be a great athlete and importantly the fastest. This is because he will need to be in pass coverage, moreso covering the weak flat. Also patterns like curls, slant outs, etc in zone coverage. He wont face alot of meat like the strongside backer but if a run is called to the weakside normally a guard will pull and the Will is expected to sort through blockers and play the run which cause alot of backside pursuit which is another trait needed in the will backer.

critesy
08-22-2007, 12:52 PM
well.. i just read in the si mag that quentin groves ran a 4.47 at 6'3 254... thats beastly he gets my vote.

Mr. Stiller
08-22-2007, 01:29 PM
well.. i just read in the si mag that quentin groves ran a 4.47 at 6'3 254... thats beastly he gets my vote.

Except he's non-existant against the run.

I think Groves will be drafted top 10 to a 4-3 team as a OLB.

draftguru151
08-22-2007, 03:53 PM
I think putting certain guys at WLB or SLB is a bit ridiculous especially since their at DEs, projecting them at OLB makes sense, dividing them up beyond that really doesn't make much sense when WLB/SLB really changes from system to system. Manny Lawson is playing SLB, DeMarcus Ware is playing SLB. I just don't see the point of projecting them to a certain OLB.

draftguru151
08-22-2007, 03:55 PM
Except he's non-existant against the run.

I think Groves will be drafted top 10 to a 4-3 team as a OLB.

Non existent? He isn't a stud against the run but that's why he projects as an OLB in a 3-4(along with his athleticism and his experience rushing from standing up). I don't see what putting him in a 4-3 at OLB would do when his best attribute is rushing the passer.

dcarey20
08-22-2007, 04:08 PM
Tommy Blake is my pick, he's so explosive and pretty underrated. He has a chance to be drafted in that hybrid role.

HoopsDemon12
08-22-2007, 04:36 PM
Tommy Blake is my pick, he's so explosive and pretty underrated. He has a chance to be drafted in that hybrid role.

only probelm wiht that is he isnt with the team right now....

etk
08-22-2007, 04:59 PM
only probelm wiht that is he isnt with the team right now....

I thought he just returned. Either way he's going to be back soon, but Sammie Stroughter is a different story right now.

HoopsDemon12
08-22-2007, 05:04 PM
I thought he just returned. Either way he's going to be back soon, but Sammie Stroughter is a different story right now.

oh i only found out he was gone like 2 days ago... ya i havnt heard anyhting about him returning yet but i could be wrong

etk
08-22-2007, 05:15 PM
oh i only found out he was gone like 2 days ago... ya i havnt heard anyhting about him returning yet but i could be wrong

It's hard to be a Canadian football fan, but yeah his absence is kinda old news. Stroughter is the new juice.

thebow305
08-22-2007, 07:40 PM
I think putting certain guys at WLB or SLB is a bit ridiculous especially since their at DEs, projecting them at OLB makes sense, dividing them up beyond that really doesn't make much sense when WLB/SLB really changes from system to system. Manny Lawson is playing SLB, DeMarcus Ware is playing SLB. I just don't see the point of projecting them to a certain OLB.

I agree. But especially the way he is doing it. It is very rare to see these pass-rushing Hybrid Defensive ends from college that transition into the 3-4 outside backers spot in the pros and are also able to play the pass. A good majority of these guys are mainly put there because of the their pass rushing abilities. Which the Strongside is perfectly suited for. Some guys are put on the weakside just by default because another backer with more experience was already on that strongside position when they got there. Bottomline, college defensive ends are not known for nor should they be for their coverage abilities. They are strictly pass rushing specialists for the most part and that is what the Hybrid/Elephant Position is all about. Period.

draftguru151
08-22-2007, 07:55 PM
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/08/17/tommy-blake-goes-mia-at-tcu/

Article about Blake, he is back at practice (practiced yesterday), but why he left is kinda weird.

princefielder28
08-22-2007, 07:59 PM
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/08/17/tommy-blake-goes-mia-at-tcu/

Article about Blake, he is back at practice (practiced yesterday), but why he left is kinda weird.

awesome news!

YAYareaRB
08-23-2007, 01:17 AM
Vernon Gholston is a given since he already does it playing in that Buckeye defense. I think Shawn Crable is athletic enough to play DE or OLB in the league. He's got perfect size for a hybrid.

ThaU4Life
08-23-2007, 03:11 PM
I think putting certain guys at WLB or SLB is a bit ridiculous especially since their at DEs, projecting them at OLB makes sense, dividing them up beyond that really doesn't make much sense when WLB/SLB really changes from system to system. Manny Lawson is playing SLB, DeMarcus Ware is playing SLB. I just don't see the point of projecting them to a certain OLB.

Ware plays WLB and I think Lawson does too.


But my vote goes to Tommy Blake, most people have never seen him and I think if he played at a different school he would be a favorite.

draftguru151
08-23-2007, 04:34 PM
Ware plays WLB and I think Lawson does too.


But my vote goes to Tommy Blake, most people have never seen him and I think if he played at a different school he would be a favorite.

Spencer and Banta Cain are the WLBs for the Cowboys and 49ers. Ware was at WLB but moved to SLB this season and Lawson was a SLB in a 4-3 last year, and is there in the 3-4 now.

theogt
08-23-2007, 05:30 PM
Spencer and Banta Cain are the WLBs for the Cowboys and 49ers. Ware was at WLB but moved to SLB this season and Lawson was a SLB in a 4-3 last year, and is there in the 3-4 now.Spencer plays SOLB. You're correct that Lawson plays SOLB, which is quite strange (err...strange that he plays the position, not that you're correct).

thebow305
08-23-2007, 05:36 PM
Spencer plays SOLB.

Yes, as of right now Spencer is the backup to Greg Ellis at Strongside Linebacker. Demarcus Ware is the starter on the Weakside, although Ware is a Strongside backer really, Greg Ellis has little to no coverage ability and Ware has gotten better in that department, so if anything he is at Weakside by default. That settles that.

draftguru151
08-23-2007, 05:57 PM
I thought I read that Ware would be moving to SLB, oh well. It still doesn't make sense to project a college DE to SLB or WLB.

theogt
08-23-2007, 06:46 PM
Yes, as of right now Spencer is the backup to Greg Ellis at Strongside Linebacker. Demarcus Ware is the starter on the Weakside, although Ware is a Strongside backer really, Greg Ellis has little to no coverage ability and Ware has gotten better in that department, so if anything he is at Weakside by default. That settles that.Spencer is not backing up Greg. He's playing the starting position. Greg will not be ready for Week 1 (or the first quarter of the season most likely). When he comes back it will be in a situational role at first. Because of this recent development, Bobby Carpenter has been moved back to SOLB, backing up Spencer.

DeMarcus Ware is not at all a strongside backer, and I'll explain why shortly.

I thought I read that Ware would be moving to SLB, oh well. It still doesn't make sense to project a college DE to SLB or WLB.What you may have read is that Ware will be changing sides this year. Wade has the defense change sides according to how the offense lines up. Ware will almost always be on the weak side of the offense. This is because teams would motion their TE or RB out toward Ware's side last season, effectively requiring him to be in coverage, rather than rushing the passer. Bill Parcells, in his bizarre reluctance to change his scheme despite what his opponent was doing, did nothing to fix this and we saw Ware in coverage an inordinate amount late in the season.

So, essentially Ware will be even more of a weak side linebacker this season.

thebow305
08-23-2007, 07:06 PM
Spencer is not backing up Greg. He's playing the starting position. Greg will not be ready for Week 1 (or the first quarter of the season most likely). When he comes back it will be in a situational role at first. Because of this recent development, Bobby Carpenter has been moved back to SOLB, backing up Spencer.

DeMarcus Ware is not at all a strongside backer, and I'll explain why shortly.

What you may have read is that Ware will be changing sides this year. Wade has the defense change sides according to how the offense lines up. Ware will almost always be on the weak side of the offense. This is because teams would motion their TE or RB out toward Ware's side last season, effectively requiring him to be in coverage, rather than rushing the passer. Bill Parcells, in his bizarre reluctance to change his scheme despite what his opponent was doing, did nothing to fix this and we saw Ware in coverage an inordinate amount late in the season.

So, essentially Ware will be even more of a weak side linebacker this season.

Forgot Ellis was injured.

thebow305
08-26-2007, 12:39 AM
Man, I didn't think Gholston would run away in this one so easily. WOW!

Man_Of_Steel
08-26-2007, 12:48 AM
Man, I didn't think Gholston would run away in this one so easily. WOW!

I was expecting Blake to be up there.

TACKLE
08-26-2007, 11:41 AM
I have a feeling though that when Quentin Groves runs a 4.4 at the combine, a lot of people will jump on his bandwagon.

Mr. Stiller
08-26-2007, 02:40 PM
I have a feeling though that when Quentin Groves runs a 4.4 at the combine, a lot of people will jump on his bandwagon.

It may just be me.. But when I want to spend a 1st round pick on a 3-4 OLB.. I want a guy thats a complete OLB.

I have a feeling Groves will be a beast in coverage (For his size) and will be solid at rushing the passer. I just haven't seen him do anything against the run. Now perhaps being in a 3-4 OLB role that would improve. If Pittsburgh got Groves, I'd be stoked. I just think Gholston, Harvey and Blake are more complete.

Raiderz4Life
08-26-2007, 05:20 PM
i got a question?

why is brian cushing on the polls....i thought he was a pure 4-3 olb

HoopsDemon12
08-26-2007, 05:42 PM
i got a question?

why is brian cushing on the polls....i thought he was a pure 4-3 olb

He is a ten times better fit at 4-3 linebacker... he has the size to play 3-4 but just isnt well suited with hsi style of play. But who knows someone may give him a shot at OLB in a 3-4

thebow305
08-26-2007, 05:51 PM
He is a ten times better fit at 4-3 linebacker... he has the size to play 3-4 but just isnt well suited with hsi style of play. But who knows someone may give him a shot at OLB in a 3-4

I wouldn't say that. He has the perfect body type along with the strength, speed, and explosiveness off the edge to make a great outside backer in the 3-4. He could also play inside in the 3-4 though. Really, you can stick him virtually anywhere and in any defensive scheme and it would work though. He is very versatile and is just a great player.

rainbeaukid2
08-26-2007, 05:59 PM
He is a ten times better fit at 4-3 linebacker... he has the size to play 3-4 but just isnt well suited with hsi style of play. But who knows someone may give him a shot at OLB in a 3-4

brian cushing would actually be a very good 3-4 OLB as he can rush the passer(shown as he played DE last year), can play the pass(he has played 4-3 OLB) and whenever USC used a 3-4 last year cushing played OLB. i think he would actually be a pretty good pick as a 3-4 OLB

thebow305
08-26-2007, 06:28 PM
brian cushing would actually be a very good 3-4 OLB as he can rush the passer(shown as he played DE last year), can play the pass(he has played 4-3 OLB) and whenever USC used a 3-4 last year cushing played OLB. i think he would actually be a pretty good pick as a 3-4 OLB

Exactly! I forgot to mention the fact he played a little DE in their 4-3 package last year. He's the perfect fit at OLB in the 3-4.

Don Vito
08-26-2007, 07:44 PM
I think it is Harvey, he has all the tools. All 40 times aside, I think he is the best athlete out of the bunch. He is a great pass rusher with the frame to hold up at DE and the athleticism to play on his feet.

Mr. Stiller
08-26-2007, 08:07 PM
I think it is Harvey, he has all the tools. All 40 times aside, I think he is the best athlete out of the bunch. He is a great pass rusher with the frame to hold up at DE and the athleticism to play on his feet.

I don't think Harvey is a better Athlete than Gholston or Groves.

Don Vito
08-26-2007, 11:59 PM
I don't think Harvey is a better Athlete than Gholston or Groves.

If you are going by measurables then maybe not, but Harvey looks like a much better athlete when he's on the field to me.

thebow305
08-27-2007, 12:32 AM
If you are going by measurables then maybe not, but Harvey looks like a much better athlete when he's on the field to me.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/198/481650931_330be744a2.jpg

I doubt Harvey looks more like an athlete than Gholston does.

Don Vito
08-27-2007, 11:55 AM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/198/481650931_330be744a2.jpg

I doubt Harvey looks more like an athlete than Gholston does.

I guess you didn't understand what I was trying to say. Harvey plays like a better athlete. Bigger biceps doesn't make Gholston a more athletic football player. I guess what I am trying to say is Harvey looks like a smoother athlete when he's on the field.

thebow305
08-27-2007, 06:13 PM
I guess you didn't understand what I was trying to say. Harvey plays like a better athlete. Bigger biceps doesn't make Gholston a more athletic football player. I guess what I am trying to say is Harvey looks like a smoother athlete when he's on the field.

No, its ok I got you. I was just messin around.

SuperKevin
08-27-2007, 07:30 PM
Don't rule out Ian Campbell the Junior from kansas State. Played really well as a DE his first two years and now is playing OLB in Prince's 3-4 defense he brought from Virginia.

BroadwayJoe10
09-17-2007, 10:28 PM
Well, the only guys i've really gotten to see a lot of was Groves and Gholston. So far, I feel that groves has been starting to separate himself from ghoslton atleast (like i said, i dont know how the rest have played, an update if anyone knows would be awesome). That sack against kansas state was absolutely unreal. He looked pretty good in coverage, his hips looked a lot more fluid than last year. I am trying to keep an eye on all the projected 3-4 OLB's considering besides OG that is the main thing i want the jets to focus on this draft. I saw a bunch of maryland games a few years ago cause my best friends bro went to school there and was on the practice squad and i fell in love with merriman and ever since than ive wanted the jets to have someone to be able to put constant pressure on a qb like him. Well, man crush aside, is there any other under the radar DE/OLB type players who i should keep my eye out for besides the main guys; Groves, gholston, blake, crable and harvey?

fischbowl
09-18-2007, 02:24 PM
I voted for Tommy Blake. I liek Jameel McClain at 3-4 OLB too.