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San Diego Chicken
08-20-2007, 08:20 PM
http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/story/207699.html

I thought this was an interesting snippet from the Broncos/Cowboys preseason game. Apparently there was some sour grapes on the part of some Broncos players because of how aggressively the Cowboys were playing on defense -

Broncos safety John Lynch told Mike Klis of The Denver Post after the game, "They came out and game-planned us, blitzing every play. They came after us.

"It's not an excuse for the way we played. But I think they might have broken the code of ethics for the preseason."

What are everyone's feelings on this? Personally, I think the Cowboys are breaking in a new scheme and need to experiment and see how players perform in the different blitz packages, for evaluation purposes. I don't see anything wrong with blitzing frequently in the preseason.

Memorex
08-20-2007, 08:30 PM
I understand some people trying to make the team, but there is no need to have the 1st teamers blitzing.

ShutDwn
08-20-2007, 08:39 PM
If they want to show teams what they are trying and going to use in the regular season, let them. Sucks for the team against them right now though.

OzTitan
08-20-2007, 08:41 PM
Same deal with the Pats/Titans game. They sent the house A LOT.

bigbluedefense
08-20-2007, 08:46 PM
I have no problem with it. You want to experiment with your team in the PS and see what works and what doesnt, who can do what and who can't. The PS is a time to experiment and get away with it, so if they want to test out blitz packages, than thats fine.

As long as it doesn't get dirty. The Giants/Ravens game was the same way, unfortunately, some injuries resulted, but I don't think it had to do with the blitzing.

I have no problem with it Wade. Show us every blitz ya got. Show all of em. That way we'll be prepared for them in week 1 :)

KILLERSANTA
08-20-2007, 09:06 PM
What are everyone's feelings on this? Personally, I think the Cowboys are breaking in a new scheme and need to experiment and see how players perform in the different blitz packages, for evaluation purposes. I don't see anything wrong with blitzing frequently in the preseason.

What you said, This is the first year under Wade. We need time to learn, isn't that the whole idea of preseason?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-20-2007, 09:08 PM
Well, when I was playing in a preseason game(not NFL level, obviously) and the other team blitzed, we decided to cut block. It was fun.

Paul
08-20-2007, 09:40 PM
We have a new coach and a new defensive scheme, and for the sake of the little broncos, we shouldn't of blitzed? I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. The point of the preseason, especially when there is new coach in town, is to polish up on the the new scheme and see it in real live action. Not to tippy toe around for the sake of some " code of ethics". We are trying to make this team better. There are somethings you can't emulate on the practice field. And correct if I'm wrong but isn't Mr. John ,Helmet to Helmet, Lynch known for some cheap shots him self. He needs to keep his mouth shut.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
08-20-2007, 10:12 PM
give me a break. teams want to try what they want, it shouldn't be special rules because lets be honest, every game counts. People are trying to make teams, people want to know what they have come regular season, and people have to know what certain player strengths are. u can't control the blitz, well u better work on it for the regular season. pre season may be preseason for some guys, but not for everyone. just because u feel one way doesn't mean someone else has to. I don't think its a big deal and don't think they were really complaining to much, but if they were they need to suck it up and play better. a non issue IMO

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-20-2007, 10:35 PM
give me a break. teams want to try what they want, it shouldn't be special rules because lets be honest, every game counts. People are trying to make teams, people want to know what they have come regular season, and people have to know what certain player strengths are. u can't control the blitz, well u better work on it for the regular season. pre season may be preseason for some guys, but not for everyone. just because u feel one way doesn't mean someone else has to. I don't think its a big deal and don't think they were really complaining to much, but if they were they need to suck it up and play better. a non issue IMO


Well the first teamers aren't trying to do anything except avoid injuries. And I think that's mostly what it's about. Although I agree that I don't think he's so much complaining as explaining why they didn't look all too good. They probably were expecting, from the first team, the whole regular pre season experience.

elway777
08-20-2007, 10:50 PM
Paul I usually respect your opinion but you don't have to degrate the entire Broncos orginization. It was John Lynch's opinion, not the entire teams. He's obviously being defensive because all the teamates of his who got injured in the game. Call us the little Broncos after looking at how we have played against "Americas Team" recently. And about John Lynch being a dirty hitter. You boys would know, having a player who got an entire form of tackling outlawed.

CC.SD
08-20-2007, 11:07 PM
Broncos whining about ethics? Just play football.

elway777
08-20-2007, 11:11 PM
Broncos whining about ethics? Just play football.

Broncos? As in Lynch speaks for the entire team?

EdReedUnstoppable
08-20-2007, 11:17 PM
The game they're playing is called football not soccer or baseball or basketball, blitzing and hitting are part of the game. You step on the field and in between those lines you hit or be hit.

PalmerToCJ
08-20-2007, 11:22 PM
I don't see why they would blitz the first team, even if they did I wouldn't see it being very exotic. I can see doing this with the second team... The Bengals were sending the second teamers on some blitzes against the Saints this week.

Anyway, it's good for the Oline/FB/RB to see blitzes so they can get practice at picking them up... Especially the younger RB's. Granted you don't want players (EX. QB) getting hurt because of it.

Paul
08-20-2007, 11:27 PM
Paul I usually respect your opinion but you don't have to degrate the entire Broncos orginization. It was John Lynch's opinion, not the entire teams. He's obviously being defensive because all the teamates of his who got injured in the game. Call us the little Broncos after looking at how we have played against "Americas Team" recently. And about John Lynch being a dirty hitter. You boys would know, having a player who got an entire form of tackling outlawed.

Agreed on the first part. It was Lynch's comments not the Broncos, so I was a bit out of line on that. That said, Lynch speaking on any kind of "code of ethics", especially on something as trivial as this, is a bit of hypocritical. I like and respect Lynch as player, honestly do, but he has gained a reputation as a head hunter. I just find it mind-boggling that he is whining about a defense trying to polish up there game, when I would think he, a Pro's Pro defensive player would understand.

On the Roy Williams thing, that's irrelevant. I've never said we were a team of boy scouts either.

Paul
08-20-2007, 11:41 PM
I don't see why they would blitz the first team, even if they did I wouldn't see it being very exotic. I can see doing this with the second team... The Bengals were sending the second teamers on some blitzes against the Saints this week.

Anyway, it's good for the Oline/FB/RB to see blitzes so they can get practice at picking them up... Especially the younger RB's. Granted you don't want players (EX. QB) getting hurt because of it.

I certainly see why they would blitz on 1st team vs. 1st team. Wade did not show his most exotic stuff out there that night, but he did want to see the progress we have made during that week, seeing that are performance the week prior was pretty mediocre. And what better way to gauge the progress then to go at the other teams best. We still have a pretty new scheme, so the more reps for your starters against the better competition will provide the best sketch at where you are as a team. that's my take on it.

ks_perfection
08-21-2007, 12:19 AM
The first-teamers play to get ready for the regular season. If the coachs feel they need practice on blitz they should blitz. Its not there trying to create injuries with questionable tactics.

BX
08-21-2007, 03:34 AM
"outlawed." Yeah right. Roy collar-tackled a Bronco during the game, right in front of a ref, and wasn't penalized for it.

Enforcement is non-existent.

OzTitan
08-21-2007, 08:56 AM
I'm amazed he continues to do it, in the preseason no less. Already helped to ruin one guy's career with it (Tyrone Calico - both knees = dead after the Roy Williams treatment). I didn't see this one but in the Calico one, he was already heading to the sideline anyway, he basically had no intention of going up field from what I recall.

Anyway, not trying to fuel an off topic discussion, it just seems to me every time I see Roy play, if he hasn't done one, he's tried to and missed the tackle because of it. The "there's no other way to bring him down" excuse loses its effectiveness when he's got to be easily the biggest offender of it out there.

CC.SD
08-21-2007, 10:02 AM
Broncos? As in Lynch speaks for the entire team?

Well, Snyder's crew apologized when Clinton Portis supported dogfighting. Do all the Redskins support dogfighting? No, but when a player employed by the organization speaks out, guess what, it represents the organization.

I'm not trying to make any particular point, other than don't be so nitpicky.

dc4life
08-21-2007, 11:42 AM
Do you guys even know what the horse collar rule is ? As long as the defender gets one hand on the ball carrier's body FIRST, he can still drag him down by his collar/shoulder pad area (which is usually the 2nd move). They only flag it if the defender goes directly for the horse collar tackle. So as long as you put one hand on them first, and then drag them down from their collar, it is LEGAL. Which is what he did. The rule also doesnt apply if the offensive player is in the pocket.

"All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside collar of the back of the shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling down the runner. This does not apply to a runner who is in the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket. Previously, the “horse-collar” tackle rule did not include the back of the shoulder pads or jersey. This increases the scope of the rule. Penalty: Loss of 15 yards. "

Smooth Criminal
08-21-2007, 11:50 AM
I don't see any reason that you wouldn't be allowed to do whatever you want in the preseason. The preseason is about getting your team ready for the regular season so whatever you think is the best way to do that, go for it.

Everyone seems to forget that teams get a say in who they play in the preseason. If there is a team that you know goes hard in the preseason and you don't want your team going against them, make sure they don't end up on your schedule.

dc4life
08-21-2007, 11:51 AM
do you even know what hit we're talking about, or did you just feel it necessary to quote a rule and act indignant? what's even sillier is that you suggest that as long as i touch you, i can horse tackle you, even though the rule you quoted RIGHT AFTER does not imply that at all. let's try to keep up.

I believe the tackle was against Travis Henry. I've watched all Dallas Cowboy games and I can tell you this. Roy has never been flagged for it. Unless the NFL has made some amendments to this rule, which I dont know about, the "as long as I touch you first, I can horse collar you" is sill in effect. I've heard announcers in many different games confirm this. And yes the ref was right there. Do you think hes that dumb ? The rule is basically aimed at one player, but yet he never gets flagged for it? gee I wonder why.

dc4life
08-21-2007, 12:04 PM
are you honestly going to tell me he DIDN'T horse collar travis henry, just because the ref didn't call it? that's utterly asinine. and he never gets flagged for it? are you nuts? does anything you've said in the recent past have ANY basis in reality, or are you just quoting dallas talk show hosts and beat reporters now? you tried to pass off a phrase that doesn't exist in the rule as being part of that rule because an announcer said it? they also said that ebenezer ekuban's ACL was torn, not his achilles. i'm sure that makes his medical report wrong. because some announcer said it. right? because announcer's are typically the most knowledgeable guys. not the rule book. the rule book is wrong. because al michaels said so.

get a grip.

LOL, I'm not arguing if he horse collared Henry or not. The point is you guys think horse collaring is illegal under all circumstances. My quote is proving to you that horse collaring is legal in certain situations. If you think all aspects of horse collaring are illegal and deserves a flag, you're dreaming...

Care to tell me why Roy never gets flagged for the hundreds of times hes done it?

Cause right now all I see is "omgz hes horse collaredz! Throwz the flags cause I'm in nfl ref!"

dc4life
08-21-2007, 12:17 PM
that's exactly what you see. or maybe it was "there was a clear horse tackle on an end around run right at the refs feet that he didn't throw a flag on." which sounds exactly like that crap you just tried to pass off as my words. no one cares that it's occasionally legal because those situations don't pertain to anything being discussed. please, try to keep up with at least some part of a conversation before becoming a part of it.

further, please prove that there have been "hundreds" or horse tackles that he didn't get flagged for. i buy that there are a few a season. there are also a few holds per season. i guess those must be legal too, because it doesn't get called 100% of the time.

Right, cause a hold is as obvious as a horse collar in open field and on top of that it is usually done on the ball carrier which is where all focus is. Ask any Cowboy fan how many times Roy has been flagged for horse collaring and how many times hes done it. I don't have time to research this for you just to prove a point, so you might wanna do this yourself.

bigbluedefense
08-21-2007, 12:23 PM
what bothers me about the horsecollar rule is that they will call it on other players, yet the biggest culprit of it, Roy Williams, NEVER gets called for it.

They made the rule because of him, yet they continue to let the person who does it the most get away with it? Come on, thats ridiculous. He does it at least once a game. And don't give me that mumbo jumbo about how technically he's not doing it, because I see the games too. And yeah, he is. The Giants got called for a horsecollar in their PS game, and Ive seen Roy Williams do WAY worse horsecollars and not get flagged for it. Its a joke, it really is.

dc4life
08-21-2007, 12:24 PM
why would i do YOUR research for you to prove a point YOU made that i disagree with? are you serious? or have you compeltely run out of even vaguely valid points to make so instead, you're just going to start the "i'm right because me and other cowboys fans know i'm right so i don't need to look anything up because i'm so busy" crap. awesome, kid.


Cause i've seen it first hand. It may come to a surprise to you watching preseason games and seeing it happen for the very first time, but I completely understand. If i didn't know specific details about the rule, I too would be jumping out of my seat throwing tissues at the screen, pretending to be an NFL ref in the process.

dc4life
08-21-2007, 12:25 PM
what bothers me about the horsecollar rule is that they will call it on other players, yet the biggest culprit of it, Roy Williams, NEVER gets called for it.

They made the rule because of him, yet they continue to let the person who does it the most get away with it? Come on, thats ridiculous. He does it at least once a game. And don't give me that mumbo jumbo about how technically he's not doing it, because I see the games too. And yeah, he is. The Giants got called for a horsecollar in their PS game, and Ive seen Roy Williams do WAY worse horsecollars and not get flagged for it. Its a joke, it really is.

Thanks for proving my point-- "He never gets called for it, why?"

+rep lol

dc4life
08-21-2007, 12:26 PM
Wow njx9 actually gave me negative rep ! I did prove my point, Its in the freakin' quote.

bigbluedefense
08-21-2007, 12:28 PM
Thanks for proving my point-- "He never gets called for it, why?"

+rep lol

ive seen him do it illegally plenty of times, even by your definition of the rule, yet not get flagged for it.

ive watched at least 10 cowboys games last year, im not making it up. he does it quite often

bigbluedefense
08-21-2007, 12:40 PM
there's no proof in the bloody quote! you just SAID he's done it "hundreds of times" and never gotten flagged. that's hardly proof. and as much as i respect BBD's opinion on nearly everything defense, his post is hardly indisputable fact. christ.

and regardless, YOUR original point was that what he's doing is NOT illegal. when it CLEARLY was in the denver game. and apparently clearly has been to BBD in other games. so wtf are you even arguing? do you have any idea what you're even talking about at this point?

yeah i was confused when he thought i was agreeing with him.

my point is, he does illegal horsecollars all the time, and its bs that he never gets called for it. just to clarify.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
08-21-2007, 12:52 PM
Wow njx9 actually gave me negative rep ! I did prove my point, Its in the freakin' quote.

rep is something that people can give out for anything. i've seen positive rep been given out for less, so don't worry its not the end of the world. To be honest, i can see why he gave it to u.

i ahven't watched a whole lot of Dallas games recently (i try to avoid seeing TO at all costs), but in the games i have seen (mostly on Fox) it seems fairly evident that Roy Williams does horsecollar. Just because a flag isn't thrown doesn't make it the correct call. Refs are human, and as the NBA ref scandal shows, anything is possible.

But seriously, i've seen him get flagged, and i've compared tackles he's made and didn't get flagged for then looked at other players doing the same thing and getting flagged. i've seen even less be called. To say that its not a horsecaller because it wasn't called, or because his one hand touched the front of his body or whatever first, doesn't mean that u can then do whatever it takes (ie horsecollar) to bring him down

Smooth Criminal
08-21-2007, 12:54 PM
what does any of this have to do with being allowed? that has little to nothing to do with the ethics involved. alex rodriguez was allowed to scream at the 3rd baseman on that infield pop-up. but by baseball's ethics, it wasn't the right thing to do.

I'm just saying I dont see anything wrong with blitzing in the preseason. If its allowed in the regular season it should be allowed in the preseason. These games are about getting a good look at players in a real game scenario. How is it real game scenario if they dont use the same blitzs that will be used in the real games.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-21-2007, 01:09 PM
I'm just saying I dont see anything wrong with blitzing in the preseason. If its allowed in the regular season it should be allowed in the preseason. These games are about getting a good look at players in a real game scenario. How is it real game scenario if they dont use the same blitzs that will be used in the real games.

They need to get a look at their second and third teamers, yes. But they already know what Demarcus Ware can do. If they wanna bring "blitzes that will be used in real games", they can, because they're idiots. You don't want to give stuff away in preseason, which is why teams usually don't blitz. Once it's been used in preseason, opposing offenses can spot it a mile away, and beat it.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-21-2007, 01:11 PM
rep is something that people can give out for anything. i've seen positive rep been given out for less, so don't worry its not the end of the world. To be honest, i can see why he gave it to u.

i ahven't watched a whole lot of Dallas games recently (i try to avoid seeing TO at all costs), but in the games i have seen (mostly on Fox) it seems fairly evident that Roy Williams does horsecollar. Just because a flag isn't thrown doesn't make it the correct call. Refs are human, and as the NBA ref scandal shows, anything is possible.

But seriously, i've seen him get flagged, and i've compared tackles he's made and didn't get flagged for then looked at other players doing the same thing and getting flagged. i've seen even less be called. To say that its not a horsecaller because it wasn't called, or because his one hand touched the front of his body or whatever first, doesn't mean that u can then do whatever it takes (ie horsecollar) to bring him down

I got neg repped for saying humans are generally more important than dogs.

Smooth Criminal
08-21-2007, 02:54 PM
They need to get a look at their second and third teamers, yes. But they already know what Demarcus Ware can do. If they wanna bring "blitzes that will be used in real games", they can, because they're idiots. You don't want to give stuff away in preseason, which is why teams usually don't blitz. Once it's been used in preseason, opposing offenses can spot it a mile away, and beat it.

I didn't say it was smart or that I would do it but the fact is if the Cowboys want to blitz their first team guys they are allowed so this shouldn't even be any argument. If this is what the Cowboys want to do to get their team ready to play, they are allowed to do it and should.

I wouldn't change the way I wanted to get my team ready if I believed it was the best way because of some un written rule of preseason ethics.

Smooth Criminal
08-21-2007, 03:52 PM
i don't disagree with any of that. and i doubt lynch meant to imply that blitzing in the pre-season was wrong, just that it borders on impolite.

Impolite is a word I would use to describe the game of football.

zoinks
08-21-2007, 05:33 PM
Seems to me this whole thing could be solved with a 5-minute phone call between the HC's.

"Listen, Mike....our DC is working on some new blitz packages...just wanted to let you know you'll be seeing some of them this week."

"Sure thing, Wade....we weren't gonna dress things up much, but what the heck....probably help Cutler to see some different looks, anyway. Listen, we've got a couple rooks we're trying to work in, but they're still getting the big eyes. Think you could maybe call off the dogs a little in the second quarter, let 'em get their feet wet?"

"Sure thing, coach...no problem."

slimx37
08-23-2007, 08:12 AM
about the horse collar rule
the rule is you cant use the collar inside or outside of the pads to IMMEADIATELY bring another player to the ground. basically what this means is that as long as you don't yank them backwards right as you get a hold of the player it is legal the rule is set up in a way that limits the chance of injury while still allowing a defensive player to make a play. on the play with roy williams and travis henry roy didn't use the collar to yank henry backwards instead he rode henry slowing his forward momentum and then pulled him to the ground that is why it wasn't called

dc4life
08-23-2007, 10:37 AM
about the horse collar rule
the rule is you cant use the collar inside or outside of the pads to IMMEADIATELY bring another player to the ground. basically what this means is that as long as you don't yank them backwards right as you get a hold of the player it is legal the rule is set up in a way that limits the chance of injury while still allowing a defensive player to make a play. on the play with roy williams and travis henry roy didn't use the collar to yank henry backwards instead he rode henry slowing his forward momentum and then pulled him to the ground that is why it wasn't called

No use trying to prove it to them bro, but I know what you're saying.

nobodyinparticular
08-23-2007, 12:18 PM
I understand some people trying to make the team, but there is no need to have the 1st teamers blitzing.

If you run a 3-4 defense, you have to blitz. Otherwise you have a 3-man rush coming all the time. That's ridiculous. You don't play less hard because it's a preseason game. You need to take the time to work on certain things in the first live action before it actually counts.