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kmartin575
08-21-2007, 12:38 AM
QB: Rivers, Cutler, Croyle
RB: Tomlinson, LJ, Henry
FB: Neal, Kyle Johnson, Justin Griffith
TE: Gates, Gonzalez, Graham
WR: Walker, Curry, Jackson
LT: McNeill, Lepsis, McIntosh
LG: Waters, Dielman, Hamilton
C: Hardwick, Nalen, Wiegmann
RG: Goff, Welbourn, Kuper
RT: Olivea, Pears, Turley

RE: Burgess, Allen, Moss
DT: Williams, Sands, Tyler
DT: Sapp, Castillo, Warren
LE: Hali, Crowder, Moses
SLB: Merriman, Derrick Johnson, Howard
MLB: Morrison, Harris, D.J. Williams
WLB: Donnie Edwards, Shaun Phillips, Ian Gold
LCB: Bailey, Asomugha, Law
SS: Huff, Pollard, Weddle
FS: Lynch, Page, McCree
RCB: Bly, Surtain, Florence
K: Kaeding, Elam, Janikowski
P: Colquitt, Lechler, Scifres

sdpads24
08-21-2007, 12:41 AM
Weddle already? He's not even going to start and he's a rookie. wow

CC.SD
08-21-2007, 09:56 AM
Culpepper>Croyle.

Shaun Phillips wouldn't sit behind Donnie Edwards either, he is beastly. and Jammer is getting dissed, I would rate him above Florence easily, and probably at least even with Surtain or Law at this point in their careers.

and Jarrad Page over Marlon McCree? there's homerism and then there's blind homerism.

255979119
08-21-2007, 10:47 AM
I would rather have Derrick Johnson in a 4-3 then Shawn Merriman. Johnson has proven that he can stuff the run as well as he can cover. Merriman is just an all out blitzer in a 3-4 scheme.

SubNoize
08-21-2007, 11:01 AM
colquitt over lechler? no way. Also the Starting Corners would be Asomugha and Bailey not Bailey and Bly, I know you were going for position but if you were making a team, I'd go with that. I'd also say Fabian Washington is better than Drayton Florence.

CC.SD
08-21-2007, 11:29 AM
I would rather have Derrick Johnson in a 4-3 then Shawn Merriman. Johnson has proven that he can stuff the run as well as he can cover. Merriman is just an all out blitzer in a 3-4 scheme.

I disagree with your Merriman assessment, but in a 4-3 he probably would play defensive end. Either way, an all AFC West team without Merriman would be stupid.

NIN1984
08-21-2007, 11:57 AM
Starting Offense-

QB - Philip Rivers

RB - LaDainian Tomlinson
FB - Lorenzo Neal

WR - Javon Walker
WR - Ronald Curry

TE - Tony Gonzalez

LT - Marcus McNeill
LG - Brian Waters
C - Tom Nalen
RG - Mike Goff
RT - Shane Olivea

Starting Defense- I'll just go with the 4-3

DE - Derrick Burgess
DT - Jamal Williams
DT - Warren Sapp
DE - Jared Allen

OLB - Derrick Johnson
MLB - Kirk Morrison
OLB - Shawne Merriman

CB - Champ Bailey
CB - Nnamdi Asomugha

FS - John Lynch
SS - Donovin Darius

K- Jason Elam
P- Shane Lechler

Head Coach - Mike Shanahan

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 12:13 PM
Culpepper>Croyle.

Shaun Phillips wouldn't sit behind Donnie Edwards either, he is beastly. and Jammer is getting dissed, I would rate him above Florence easily, and probably at least even with Surtain or Law at this point in their careers.

and Jarrad Page over Marlon McCree? there's homerism and then there's blind homerism.

From the play of Culpepper in 2006, I would not say Culpepper>Croyle. Brodie Croyle has made some stupid interceptions this preseason but he has also made some throws that not many quarterbacks can make.

Shaun Phillips is a fine fit as a 3-4 linebacker and he may get more recognition like all 3-4 linebackers do but Donnie Edwards has been one of the most consistent players in the league and he is a perfect fit on the weakside in the Chiefs cover 2.

I'm not sure I would rank Jammer very high. According to footballoutsiders.com's DVOA rankings of defense against types of receivers, San Diego was ranked 25th in the league in covering #1 WR's. That obviously would be the man Quentin Jammer was usually covering. Denver was ranked #1, Oakland was #2, and KC was #4.

Yes, Jarrad Page over Marlon McCree. Marlon McCree has been a journeyman for most of his career. KC Joyner from ESPN recently had an overrated and underrated list of safeties and Jarrad Page was listed as one of the league's underrated safeties. He had some of the best coverage statistics of all coverage safeties.

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 12:16 PM
colquitt over lechler? no way. Also the Starting Corners would be Asomugha and Bailey not Bailey and Bly, I know you were going for position but if you were making a team, I'd go with that. I'd also say Fabian Washington is better than Drayton Florence.

It's just a matter of opinion between Colquitt and Lechler, no big deal. Colquitt did have the highest net average in the NFL last year with a 39.3 net average and he is also alot younger than Lechler.

I agree the starting corners would be Asomugha and Bailey but as you said, I went by left cornerback and right cornerback.

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 12:20 PM
it's also difficult for me to believe that mcneill is better than lepsis RIGHT NOW.

Lepsis is coming off an injury and the entire Bronco offensive line looked like crap against Dallas.

McNeill is coming off a pro bowl season.

However, I do think McNeill is a tad bit overrated and is not yet the elite left tackle that some think he is. I know Jared Allen gave McNeill alot of trouble last year. I also watched the SD vs. St. Louis preseason game and I saw either James Hall or Leonard Little (can't remember which one it was) beat McNeill easily.

ncst8fan83
08-21-2007, 12:22 PM
From the play of Culpepper in 2006, I would not say Culpepper>Croyle. Brodie Croyle has made some stupid interceptions this preseason but he has also made some throws that not many quarterbacks can make.

Shaun Phillips is a fine fit as a 3-4 linebacker and he may get more recognition like all 3-4 linebackers do but Donnie Edwards has been one of the most consistent players in the league and he is a perfect fit on the weakside in the Chiefs cover 2.

I'm not sure I would rank Jammer very high. According to footballoutsiders.com's DVOA rankings of defense against types of receivers, San Diego was ranked 25th in the league in covering #1 WR's. That obviously would be the man Quentin Jammer was usually covering. Denver was ranked #1, Oakland was #2, and KC was #4.

Yes, Jarrad Page over Marlon McCree. Marlon McCree has been a journeyman for most of his career. KC Joyner from ESPN recently had an overrated and underrated list of safeties and Jarrad Page was listed as one of the league's underrated safeties. He had some of the best coverage statistics of all coverage safeties.

how much of that is attributed to their horrid rush defense though? San Diego's corners are fairly horrible though. they were, what, like bottom 3rd at least last year. Awful.

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 12:26 PM
how much of that is attributed to their horrid rush defense though? San Diego's corners are fairly horrible though. they were, what, like bottom 3rd at least last year. Awful.

Who's horrid rush defense?

I wouldn't go as far as saying San Diego's corners were awful because I think they had a solid year last year. But they are not as good as some might think, IMO. They should be alot better considering San Diego led the league in sacks last year.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-21-2007, 12:52 PM
well let's rate everything by the preseason then...

denver was a playoff team until lepsis went down last year. the minute he got hurt, our record dropped by at least 2 games. mcneill was great for a rookie, but i doubt he's a top 5-8 LT already.

Yep. 5-1 with him, 4-6 without him. We probably wouldn't have kept the stellar pace up, but we most likely would have finished 10-6 or 11-5, and easily made the playoffs.

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-21-2007, 01:06 PM
Fabian should on the list.I like NINs list.

SuperMcGee
08-21-2007, 01:31 PM
I am huge fan of Colquitt. Top 3-5 punter in the league for sure imo. He was much better than Lechler last year but it's hard to put him ahead of Shane altogether.

sdpads24
08-21-2007, 01:41 PM
well let's rate everything by the preseason then...

denver was a playoff team until lepsis went down last year. the minute he got hurt, our record dropped by at least 2 games. mcneill was great for a rookie, but i doubt he's a top 5-8 LT already.

In terms of run blocking Mcneill is probably one of the best in the league. He opens up a lot of room for LT which contributed to his great season. In terms of pass blocking he is is not on the same level though. So in this point of his career I would probably rate him as a top 10-15 LT in the league.

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 02:46 PM
Fabian should on the list.I like NINs list.

Don't like the safeties though. Talk about a pair of over the hill, can't cover safeties. I would rather have guys like Michael Huff, Marlon McCree, or either of the Chiefs' safeties over Lynch or Darius.

Average OT LB
08-21-2007, 03:59 PM
Yep. 5-1 with him, 4-6 without him. We probably wouldn't have kept the stellar pace up, but we most likely would have finished 10-6 or 11-5, and easily made the playoffs.


but can't you contribute those losses to jake plummers poor preformance.. the games that he played the offense suffered but the D played well resulting in a win.. but plummer wasnt scoring points and you guys and so you made a change in quarterback...

im not doubting lepsis's effect on the team, because it was definitely a factor.. i just think its hard to say the team could have won 11 games if the offense was struggling to score even with him..

Average OT LB
08-21-2007, 04:06 PM
plummer was awful in the beginning as well. it was readily apparent to anyone who watched every denver game that the season essentially ended the minute lepsis went out. the offense completely changed, and the mediocre talent at a number of positions was even more exposed.

so if cutler was so good without him (9tds in what 5 games?) what is he expected to do? ... numbers wise

ncst8fan83
08-21-2007, 04:26 PM
Yep. 5-1 with him, 4-6 without him. We probably wouldn't have kept the stellar pace up, but we most likely would have finished 10-6 or 11-5, and easily made the playoffs.

with him, you scored 13.2 ppg. without him you scored 24 ppg.

You don't think it was the horrid defense that surrendered 7.3 ppg with him and 26.1 ppg without him?

Xenos
08-21-2007, 04:30 PM
From the play of Culpepper in 2006, I would not say Culpepper>Croyle. Brodie Croyle has made some stupid interceptions this preseason but he has also made some throws that not many quarterbacks can make.

Shaun Phillips is a fine fit as a 3-4 linebacker and he may get more recognition like all 3-4 linebackers do but Donnie Edwards has been one of the most consistent players in the league and he is a perfect fit on the weakside in the Chiefs cover 2.

I'm not sure I would rank Jammer very high. According to footballoutsiders.com's DVOA rankings of defense against types of receivers, San Diego was ranked 25th in the league in covering #1 WR's. That obviously would be the man Quentin Jammer was usually covering. Denver was ranked #1, Oakland was #2, and KC was #4.

Yes, Jarrad Page over Marlon McCree. Marlon McCree has been a journeyman for most of his career. KC Joyner from ESPN recently had an overrated and underrated list of safeties and Jarrad Page was listed as one of the league's underrated safeties. He had some of the best coverage statistics of all coverage safeties.

Jammer just covers the right side of the field, which was often split between the #1 and #2 receiver. He never follows the #1 like Bailey does. And he is better than Law.
And it's ridiculous to judge a 3-4 dline and linebacking core vs. a 4-3 defense. It just doesn't work that way.

ncst8fan83
08-21-2007, 04:31 PM
did you check out time of posession, or just assume it wasn't relevant? maybe rushing yards per game on either side?

i'm at work right now, but if you want me to check it out tonight i will.

Xenos
08-21-2007, 04:37 PM
In terms of run blocking Mcneill is probably one of the best in the league. He opens up a lot of room for LT which contributed to his great season. In terms of pass blocking he is is not on the same level though. So in this point of his career I would probably rate him as a top 10-15 LT in the league.

I don't know I think his pass blocking is excellent. Can it improve? Definitely especially against speed rushers like Allen and Hall. But he also only gave up 3 sacks last year for a rookie with both hands broken. So I definitely think he is better than Lepsis at this moment in time. Don't ge me wrong I think Lepsis has had a fine career, but his injury and age gets him a notch below McNeill.

Average OT LB
08-21-2007, 04:50 PM
In my opinion Marcus Mcneil is a top 5 tackle in the NFL right now and is the best run blocking T in the league... I know i havent seen all of the other T in the NFL but i have seen mcneil and i know what hes done for LT... quick stats

running towards Mcneil LT averaged 7.6 yards per carry and totaled 18 or his 28 rushing TDs

again like i said i havent seen every T but the numbers speak for themselves.. Tomlinson averaged 5.2 ypc which is very good but 7.6 just goes to show how much better Mcneil allowed him to be.. Tomlinson didnt score 30+ TDs in one year without him...

Average OT LB
08-21-2007, 04:51 PM
I don't know I think his pass blocking is excellent. Can it improve? Definitely especially against speed rushers like Allen and Hall. But he also only gave up 3 sacks last year for a rookie with both hands broken. So I definitely think he is better than Lepsis at this moment in time. Don't ge me wrong I think Lepsis has had a fine career, but his injury and age gets him a notch below McNeill.

The 3 sacks has more so to do with the chargers not being a fan of 7 step drops and passing every down... Its not like Mcneil is bad at pass blocking but if he played on the rams i think that 3 would look like an 8 9 or 10

Average OT LB
08-21-2007, 05:00 PM
and michael clayton is a top 15 nfl receiver, just like after his rookie... oh. wait.

yes so there are many players who had great rookie seasons and did not preform well the next few years.. but can you name linemen like that? i believe it is much more rare and how they play early in their career is indicitive of how their career ends up... Clayton needs the ball to be thrown to him.. for that to be effectively done he needs a good qb, with good protection, and a run game to take the pressure off.. clayton dosnet have that right now..

other skill players usually run into the same thing- their success is dependant on the preformance of other players... but Mcneil is a lineman and he does not have that problem. Randy Moss is a prime example of how a skill player is dependent on the players around him.. Jonathon Ogden is example of how lineman are really uneffected by the other players..

Xenos
08-21-2007, 05:06 PM
and michael clayton is a top 15 nfl receiver, just like after his rookie... oh. wait.

Yes McNeill could have a sophmore slump and be horrible for the rest of his career. But I'm basing it on last year and his high potential. Of course, he doesn't have the accolades that Lepsis has and if we just comparing history then Lepsis is much better. But this is about now...and I feel McNeill is better than Lepsis at this time.

Xenos
08-21-2007, 05:07 PM
The 3 sacks has more so to do with the chargers not being a fan of 7 step drops and passing every down... Its not like Mcneil is bad at pass blocking but if he played on the rams i think that 3 would look like an 8 9 or 10

So you're going to hold that against him because we don't throw it deep like other teams. It seems to me that when we do need time to throw it deep, it's always the right side that collapses.
And look at the sacks that Jordan gave up when he was the left tackle and how little time Brees had in the pocket. Even though our play was designed to get rid of the ball quickly.

Xenos
08-21-2007, 05:09 PM
yes so there are many players who had great rookie seasons and did not preform well the next few years.. but can you name linemen like that? i believe it is much more rare and how they play early in their career is indicitive of how their career ends up... Clayton needs the ball to be thrown to him.. for that to be effectively done he needs a good qb, with good protection, and a run game to take the pressure off.. clayton dosnet have that right now..

other skill players usually run into the same thing- their success is dependant on the preformance of other players... but Mcneil is a lineman and he does not have that problem. Randy Moss is a prime example of how a skill player is dependent on the players around him.. Jonathon Ogden is example of how lineman are really uneffected by the other players..

I think you mean left tackle, not linemen, since left tackle is one of the rare positions that isn't necessarily dependent on the other olinemen.

CC.SD
08-21-2007, 05:38 PM
Marlon McCree was vicious last year, and turned our pass defense into something that could actually stop teams. He was easily better than Page, who didn't even play the whole year.

and yes, Daunte Culpepper, nearly the MVP just a couple years ago before suffering a horrible injury that he is just now recovered from, is better than Brodie, who hasn't done anything, and hasn't proven anything.

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 05:53 PM
Jammer just covers the right side of the field, which was often split between the #1 and #2 receiver. He never follows the #1 like Bailey does. And he is better than Law.
And it's ridiculous to judge a 3-4 dline and linebacking core vs. a 4-3 defense. It just doesn't work that way.

The stats would say Jammer is not better than Law. The Chargers were also ranked only #12 against #2 WR's so either way, Jammer and Florence were far from an elite talent.

Imagine what the Chiefs corners would have done with the type of pass rush San Diego has. If San Diego's corners were in the Chiefs from last year they would have been torched because of the lack of a pass rush.

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 05:59 PM
Marlon McCree was vicious last year, and turned our pass defense into something that could actually stop teams. He was easily better than Page, who didn't even play the whole year.

and yes, Daunte Culpepper, nearly the MVP just a couple years ago before suffering a horrible injury that he is just now recovered from, is better than Brodie, who hasn't done anything, and hasn't proven anything.

Page didn't play the whole year because he was a rookie and was a 7th round pick.

Wait until you see Page start for an entire year.

Page is younger, bigger, faster, and has more upside.

And I would hardly call a season in which a safety had 42 tackles, only 1 interception, and 4 passes defended a monster season.

As a backup for most of the season Jarrad Page had 3 interceptions, 30 tackles, and 5 passes defended.

I'll take the 22 year old Page and the 22 year old Pollard over the 30 year old McCree anyday.

Xenos
08-21-2007, 06:08 PM
Page didn't play the whole year because he was a rookie and was a 7th round pick.

Wait until you see Page start for an entire year.

Page is younger, bigger, faster, and has more upside.

And I would hardly call a season in which a safety had 42 tackles, only 1 interception, and 4 passes defended a monster season.

As a backup for most of the season Jarrad Page had 3 interceptions, 30 tackles, and 5 passes defended.

I'll take the 22 year old Page and the 22 year old Pollard over the 30 year old McCree anyday.
I'll take your word for it. Especially since I feel the same way about Matt Wilhelm as opposed to Donnie Edwards.

Average OT LB
08-21-2007, 06:09 PM
The stats would say Jammer is not better than Law. The Chargers were also ranked only #12 against #2 WR's so either way, Jammer and Florence were far from an elite talent.

Imagine what the Chiefs corners would have done with the type of pass rush San Diego has. If San Diego's corners were in the Chiefs from last year they would have been torched because of the lack of a pass rush.

When you blitz as much much as our former D-coor did your gonna get alot of sacks and your gonna have alot of single coverage. While Merriman benefited from our all blitz style, it usually left our pass defense vulnerable because if the offense picked up the blitz we had so few defending recievers. Law, you could argue that he woudl have been better and that he would have been worse. Being a charger fan, i would argue that Law is getting older and doesnt have the speed to play elite WR's with little to no under neath help.

Charger fans often see Wr catch passes where the OLB would be if they didnt blitz. Oftend times those are on comeback routes or crossing routes, either way it makes the stats look bad... Those patterns are easily contained not stopped, just ask chad pennington.. or alex smith

JK17
08-21-2007, 06:16 PM
Page didn't play the whole year because he was a rookie and was a 7th round pick.

Wait until you see Page start for an entire year.

Page is younger, bigger, faster, and has more upside.

As unqaulified as I am to talk about Page because I haven't seen him play that much, or studied him that much, but I find it just as hard to believe you studied McCree anymore carefully then looking up a bunch of numbers on him.

That's not to say I think McCree deserves any kind of recognition in this discussion, but the argument of "Wait until you se Page start for an entire yaer" just reaks of homerism. I'm sure he's looked good in camp, and I'm sure he's got loads of potential. It's played out and old, and doesn't usually add up as well as the fans thought it would. Usually.

As Xenos just said, I feel the same way about Wilhelm over Edwards in our situation, but that's no justification to assume Wilhelm will be dominant this year, or in a position of prominence amongst linebackers in the AFC West. Confidence is one thing, claiming a player is better then established veterans based on a decent first year and training camp is another.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-21-2007, 08:55 PM
so if cutler was so good without him (9tds in what 5 games?) what is he expected to do? ... numbers wise

60 TDs-1 INT(they might get lucky, and I want to stay conservative here)
5500 yards, 158.3 QBR

:)

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-21-2007, 08:58 PM
with him, you scored 13.2 ppg. without him you scored 24 ppg.

You don't think it was the horrid defense that surrendered 7.3 ppg with him and 26.1 ppg without him?

A lot of the offense turning around also had to do with Cutler coming in for the last 5 games. The defense definitely did run out of gas though, but as njx said that could be because the running game stalled without Lepsis.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-21-2007, 09:00 PM
In my opinion Marcus Mcneil is a top 5 tackle in the NFL right now and is the best run blocking T in the league... I know i havent seen all of the other T in the NFL but i have seen mcneil and i know what hes done for LT... quick stats

running towards Mcneil LT averaged 7.6 yards per carry and totaled 18 or his 28 rushing TDs

again like i said i havent seen every T but the numbers speak for themselves.. Tomlinson averaged 5.2 ypc which is very good but 7.6 just goes to show how much better Mcneil allowed him to be.. Tomlinson didnt score 30+ TDs in one year without him...

Those rushing numbers may be slightly skewed, because the left tackle generally blocks the RDE, who is usually smaller and suited more to pass rushing than the LDE. Of course, that is still a phenomenal number.

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 10:31 PM
I'll take your word for it. Especially since I feel the same way about Matt Wilhelm as opposed to Donnie Edwards.

That's fine. Matt Willhelm is bigger and probably a better fit in your 3-4. Put him on the weakside in our cover 2 and that would be a different story.

kmartin575
08-21-2007, 10:32 PM
When you blitz as much much as our former D-coor did your gonna get alot of sacks and your gonna have alot of single coverage. While Merriman benefited from our all blitz style, it usually left our pass defense vulnerable because if the offense picked up the blitz we had so few defending recievers. Law, you could argue that he woudl have been better and that he would have been worse. Being a charger fan, i would argue that Law is getting older and doesnt have the speed to play elite WR's with little to no under neath help.

Charger fans often see Wr catch passes where the OLB would be if they didnt blitz. Oftend times those are on comeback routes or crossing routes, either way it makes the stats look bad... Those patterns are easily contained not stopped, just ask chad pennington.. or alex smith

The Chiefs run the cover 2. Law doesn't have to be super fast.

RaiderNation
08-21-2007, 10:54 PM
QB Rivers,Cutler,Cullpeper
RB LT,LJ, Henry
FB Neal,Griffith
WR Walker,Porter
LT: McNeill, Lepsis, McIntosh
LG: Waters, Dielman, Hamilton
C: Hardwick, Nalen, Wiegmann
RG: Goff, Welbourn, Kuper
RT: Olivea, Pears, Turley
WR Curry,Jackson

DE Burgess,Hali
DT Williams,Sands
DT Sapp,Castillo
DE Allen,Moss

OLB Johnson,Howard
MLB Morrison,Williams
OLB Merriman,Phillips

CB Bailey,Bly,Law
FS Lynch,Page
SS Huff,Darius
CB Asomugha,Washington

K Elam
P Lechler

Average OT LB
08-21-2007, 10:55 PM
The Chiefs run the cover 2. Law doesn't have to be super fast.


exacty... thats pretty much what i was pointing out. Law is a good fit for his system, not ours. With our Pass rush, he would be on his own and would be responsible for not getting beat, and wouldnt have the luxury of goign for picks. His INTs would be cut in half, and his tackles would go up. but since law doesnt tackle, i guess those number wouldnt go up. Jammer is a good fit because hes fast enough not to get beat, and strong enough to make tackles consistantly.

neko4
08-21-2007, 11:13 PM
60 TDs-1 INT(they might get lucky, and I want to stay conservative here)
5500 yards, 158.3 QBR

:)

call me pessimistic but
Cutler projection:
57TD's
2INT's
5400YDS
14-1-1 record

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-21-2007, 11:20 PM
call me pessimistic but
Cutler projection:
57TD's
2INT's
5400YDS
14-1-1 record

Woah woah. I was being conservative to not seem like a homer. But you are just blindly hating right now. Neg rep.

Average OT LB
08-21-2007, 11:58 PM
QB Rivers,Cutler,Cullpeper
RB LT,LJ, Henry
FB Neal,Griffith
WR Walker,Porter
LT: McNeill, Lepsis, McIntosh
LG: Waters, Dielman, Hamilton
C: Hardwick, Nalen, Wiegmann
RG: Goff, Welbourn, Kuper
RT: Olivea, Pears, Turley
WR Curry,Jackson

DE Burgess,Hali
DT Williams,Sands
DT Sapp,Castillo
DE Allen,Moss

OLB Johnson,Howard
MLB Morrison,Williams
OLB Merriman,Phillips

CB Bailey,Bly,Law
FS Lynch,Page
SS Huff,Darius
CB Asomugha,Washington

K Elam
P Lechler

Castillo is a DE.. as for the OLB the chargesr on teh same side because... ?

kmartin575
08-22-2007, 12:10 AM
exacty... thats pretty much what i was pointing out. Law is a good fit for his system, not ours. With our Pass rush, he would be on his own and would be responsible for not getting beat, and wouldnt have the luxury of goign for picks. His INTs would be cut in half, and his tackles would go up. but since law doesnt tackle, i guess those number wouldnt go up. Jammer is a good fit because hes fast enough not to get beat, and strong enough to make tackles consistantly.

Since Law doesn't tackle?

Law has always been a very good tackler.

kmartin575
08-22-2007, 12:11 AM
Castillo is a DE.. as for the OLB the chargesr on teh same side because... ?

Yes but in the 4-3, which is what most of us have used in our rankings, he would be an interior lineman.

Average OT LB
08-22-2007, 12:15 AM
Since Law doesn't tackle?

Law has always been a very good tackler.

I'll clean up my charger fanism, Law is not an above average tackler.

kmartin575
08-22-2007, 01:06 AM
I'll clean up my charger fanism, Law is not an above average tackler.

Why, because you have seen Ladainian Tomlinson juke him a couple of times? Big deal. Part of being a cover 2 corner is the ability to tackle well and Law fits the mould perfectly. He can come up in run support and he can tackle receivers on short routes very well.

Paul
08-22-2007, 01:09 AM
I'll clean up my charger fanism, Law is not an above average tackler.

What are you talking about? Law has always been known for his physical play and tackling ability as a cornerback. When did you start watching football?

Average OT LB
08-22-2007, 01:29 AM
What are you talking about? Law has always been known for his physical play and tackling ability as a cornerback. When did you start watching football?

I live in jet country.. unlike you.. i was able to listen to commentators critic his tackling.. and see it for myself.. yes the LT thing was embarressing but thats not the only thing i draw towards my conclusion..

Paul
08-22-2007, 01:47 AM
I live in jet country.. unlike you.. i was able to listen to commentators critic his tackling.. and see it for myself.. yes the LT thing was embarressing but thats not the only thing i draw towards my conclusion..

Unlike me, huh:rolleyes: . Well if you haven't noticed there is this new thing called "National Broadcasting", where believe it or not you get to see other games out of your area. Shocking I know. So I've seen enough of Law over the yeasr, to come up with my conclusion as well. Law consistently recorded 60-70 tkls a year in his prime, which is excellent for a Cornerback. And from what i've seen from his time in NE, he always got the job done getting to the ball carrier. He never pussyfooted or ran away from contact. Form and technique aside, he always got the job done and got his man. But please tell me where did you get the conclusion about him not being good tackler?

Average OT LB
08-22-2007, 04:48 AM
Unlike me, huh:rolleyes: . Well if you haven't noticed there is this new thing called "National Broadcasting", where believe it or not you get to see other games out of your area. Shocking I know. So I've seen enough of Law over the yeasr, to come up with my conclusion as well. Law consistently recorded 60-70 tkls a year in his prime, which is excellent for a Cornerback. And from what i've seen from his time in NE, he always got the job done getting to the ball carrier. He never pussyfooted or ran away from contact. Form and technique aside, he always got the job done and got his man. But please tell me where did you get the conclusion about him not being good tackler?

imma stick by what i said.. hes not an above average tackler

look at jammer.. look how he tackles, you have national television so this shouldnt be a problem. watch jammer, tell me if they tackle the same. Law cannot do the same job that jammer does in our defense.

bored of education
08-22-2007, 06:45 AM
AFC Wests pwns. Ty Law is finally healthy unlike the last 2 years, I think a reemergence of Law occurs this year.

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-22-2007, 10:48 AM
other skill players usually run into the same thing- their success is dependant on the preformance of other players... but Mcneil is a lineman and he does not have that problem. Randy Moss is a prime example of how a skill player is dependent on the players around him.. Jonathon Ogden is example of how lineman are really uneffected by the other players..No Randy Moss is lazy and thats why he played awful last year.Not to mention he doesnt try at all if his team doesnt win.He dropped more balls than he caught.Curry only started 3 games last year and gained over 700 yards.

PackerLegend
08-22-2007, 11:12 AM
the AFC west all together like that would make a pretty good team besides WR.

bored of education
08-22-2007, 11:23 AM
Who needs WR's when you have Antonio Gates, LDT, LJ, Gonzo. Javon Walker is a solid WR. Bowe, Marshall, V. Jack, Davis, Porter, Curry, Kennison, Steve Largent would suffice.

CC.SD
08-22-2007, 11:28 AM
Who needs WR's when you have Antonio Gates, LDT, LJ, Gonzo. Javon Walker is a solid WR. Bowe, Marshall, V. Jack, Davis, Porter, Curry, Kennison, Steve Largent would suffice.

Yeah, Steve Largent would suffice. So would Charlie Joiner.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-22-2007, 11:43 AM
Javon Walker is borderline top 10 WR. And he did that with a horrible QB for 11 games, and a rookie with little chemistry for the other 5.

bored of education
08-22-2007, 12:43 PM
Yeah a 2 TE set with Gates and Gonzo, LJ, LDT, and Walker would own anyways.

kmartin575
08-22-2007, 03:04 PM
I live in jet country.. unlike you.. i was able to listen to commentators critic his tackling.. and see it for myself.. yes the LT thing was embarressing but thats not the only thing i draw towards my conclusion..

He played with the Jets for one season. That's a pretty short time frame to draw a conclusion on a player.

kmartin575
08-22-2007, 03:06 PM
AFC Wests pwns. Ty Law is finally healthy unlike the last 2 years, I think a reemergence of Law occurs this year.

Yep, him and Surtain both lost 10 to 15 pounds so boths hould be alot faster.

Average OT LB
08-22-2007, 04:49 PM
No Randy Moss is lazy and thats why he played awful last year.Not to mention he doesnt try at all if his team doesnt win.He dropped more balls than he caught.Curry only started 3 games last year and gained over 700 yards.


Randy moss averaged over 80 catches 1300 yards and 13 touchdowns in minnesota.. including a year when he had 111 catches 1632 yards and 17 Tds

are you trying to tell me that the only reason why he did bad was he wasnt trying, and that he could reach these numbers if he had tried. Even if it was only his laziness and not the people around him that effected his numbers, why was he lazy? He was lazy because the TEAM was losing. In other words, he was dependent on the preformance of players around him...

just to clarify, i didnt say he wasnt lazy

CC.SD
08-22-2007, 04:58 PM
Yeah a 2 TE set with Gates and Gonzo, LJ, LDT, and Walker would own anyways.

Gates+Gonzo=unstoppable. Playaction LT.

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-22-2007, 07:16 PM
Randy moss averaged over 80 catches 1300 yards and 13 touchdowns in minnesota.. including a year when he had 111 catches 1632 yards and 17 Tds

are you trying to tell me that the only reason why he did bad was he wasnt trying, and that he could reach these numbers if he had tried. Even if it was only his laziness and not the people around him that effected his numbers, why was he lazy? He was lazy because the TEAM was losing. In other words, he was dependent on the preformance of players around him...

just to clarify, i didnt say he wasnt lazy
No he was lazy because he jogged on his routes and he dropped alot of balls.Not to mention he went on the radio every week and whined.
Hes also crappy character wise.Just because the team is losing he doesnt want to play.Our defense gave their best throughout the year even though they knew winning was a very slim chance.

fondoffilm
08-22-2007, 10:49 PM
QB: Jay Cutler
RB: LaDainian Tomlinson
FB: Justin Griffith
WR: Javon Walker, Jerry Porter
TE: Antonio Gates
LT: Marcus McNeill
LG: Kris Dielman
C: Nick Hardwick
RG: Mike Goff
RT: Shane Olivea

DE: Derrick Burgess, Tamba Hali
DT: Jamal Williams, Warren Sapp
SLB: Derrick Johnson
MLB: Kirk Morrison
WLB: Shawne Merriman
CB: Champ Bailey, Nnamdi Asomugha
FS: John Lynch
SS: Michael Huff

K: Jason Elam
P: Mike Scifres

HC: Mike Shanahan
OC: Mike Heimerdinger
DC: Rob Ryan

Average OT LB
08-23-2007, 12:18 AM
No he was lazy because he jogged on his routes and he dropped alot of balls.Not to mention he went on the radio every week and whined.
Hes also crappy character wise.Just because the team is losing he doesnt want to play.Our defense gave their best throughout the year even though they knew winning was a very slim chance.

so it was just his laziness.. nothing else, no other factors

So the raiders have just as good an offense, if not better, than what randy had in minnesota? Becuase if they were worse, that would be a reason why his preformance suffered... but you just said that wasnt the case, but that he was lazy..

kmartin575
08-23-2007, 01:42 AM
There was a small tidbit on ESPN.com how Michael Huff has been struggling this preseason and might be replaced in the starting lineup by Donovin Darius.

CT Bronco Fan
08-23-2007, 02:12 AM
AFC West Team

QB Philip Rivers
RB LaDainian Tomlinson / Larry Johnson
FB Lorenzo Neal
WR Javon Walker / Eddie Kenninson / Eric Parker
TE Antonio Gates / Tony Gonzalez
T Matt Lepsis / Marcus McNeill
G Brian Waters / Kris Dielman
C Tom Nalen

DE Derrick Burgess / Tamba Hali
DT Jamal Williams / Warren Sapp
OLB Shawne Merriman / Shaun Phillips
MLB Kirk Morrison
CB Champ Bailey / Nnamdi Asomugha
FS John Lynch
SS Michael Huff
K Jason Elam
P Shane Lechler

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-23-2007, 08:49 AM
so it was just his laziness.. nothing else, no other factors

So the raiders have just as good an offense, if not better, than what randy had in minnesota? Becuase if they were worse, that would be a reason why his preformance suffered... but you just said that wasnt the case, but that he was lazy..Umm no I never said that but as I said that.Again as I said before Curry was able to gain over 700 yards and he only started 3 games.So maybe if Randy wasnt a lazy piece of crap he could have put up much better numbers than he did.Maybe over 1000 yards.

CC.SD
08-23-2007, 10:06 AM
There was a small tidbit on ESPN.com how Michael Huff has been struggling this preseason and might be replaced in the starting lineup by Donovin Darius.

Wow, what an awful idea. If Stu outlasts Huff...

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-23-2007, 10:08 AM
We'll be using the Wolverine package so all three S's will be getting alot of playing time.Huff only had one bad game against SF.

NIN1984
08-23-2007, 10:37 AM
Yeah Huff looked like crap in that 49ers games, some back up TE beat him for a TD. not cool

SubNoize
08-23-2007, 10:51 AM
Yeah Huff looked like crap in that 49ers games, some back up TE beat him for a TD. not cool

it was preseason, too many people are in a panic over that. Huff is a second year player and it takes some people more than just a season to get fully acclimated to the pros, I mean look at Asomugha, he's just barely come out of his shell the last couple years and he's a multi-year veteran. Also as stated before, the Raiders will use their Wolverine package almost as much as the base 4-3. Huff will be playing the Nickel in this package and wont have to line up so close to the LOS, that is where DD will be. I actually like Huff as a corner because I don't think he has the full bulk to be a hard hitting SS, he either needs to go corner or FS full time. Maybe it's a possibility that if the Raiders don't sign Asomugha to the huge contract he'll want, that they can let Huff move to corner and draft a true SS or let BJ Ward take the honors.

nobodyinparticular
08-23-2007, 12:16 PM
it was preseason, too many people are in a panic over that. Huff is a second year player and it takes some people more than just a season to get fully acclimated to the pros, I mean look at Asomugha, he's just barely come out of his shell the last couple years and he's a multi-year veteran. Also as stated before, the Raiders will use their Wolverine package almost as much as the base 4-3. Huff will be playing the Nickel in this package and wont have to line up so close to the LOS, that is where DD will be. I actually like Huff as a corner because I don't think he has the full bulk to be a hard hitting SS, he either needs to go corner or FS full time. Maybe it's a possibility that if the Raiders don't sign Asomugha to the huge contract he'll want, that they can let Huff move to corner and draft a true SS or let BJ Ward take the honors.

Strong safeties do not need to be re-incarnations of The Assassin. They need to be able to lend a hand in run-support--something that Huff proved a LOT last year in standing RBs up in the tracks--and they need to be able to add a hand over the top--something that Darius and Ward have a hard time with, but Huff excels at.

SubNoize
08-23-2007, 12:24 PM
Strong safeties do not need to be re-incarnations of The Assassin. They need to be able to lend a hand in run-support--something that Huff proved a LOT last year in standing RBs up in the tracks--and they need to be able to add a hand over the top--something that Darius and Ward have a hard time with, but Huff excels at.

I'm not asking for devastating blows, i just hink Huff needs to add bulk and work more on his technique, he imporved a lot last year in run support but he's still far from being stellar in this area. With Huff skill set i just think he's better suited for roaming the backfield and not stacking the box.

Average OT LB
08-23-2007, 02:25 PM
that is not a direct cause-effect relationship. a player could go to a worse offense and put up better numbers (or vice versa) for a HUGE number of reasons, ONE of which could have to do with motivation.

I agree. Do you feel that randy moss did poorly soley because he was lazy?

Average OT LB
08-23-2007, 02:31 PM
Umm no I never said that but as I said that.Again as I said before Curry was able to gain over 700 yards and he only started 3 games.So maybe if Randy wasnt a lazy piece of crap he could have put up much better numbers than he did.Maybe over 1000 yards.

you dont soud all that convinced that if he wasnt lazy he would be as amazing as he was in minnesota..

I know you didnt actually say that oaklands offense is better than minnesota, but you did imply that there was no fall off.

You did that when you said that laziness was the only factor why he did bad.

Average OT LB
08-23-2007, 03:02 PM
i don't dispute it whatsoever, given that i don't pay attention to the raiders unless they're playing denver. there's no chance i'll make a random assumption based on very little information.

on the other hand, your use of the word "would" in your original argument leads one to believe that you a) know that the worse offense is the sole contributing factor, or b) that there's no question being in a worse offense will always impact a player's ability/numbers negatively. neither of which is realistically true.

I agree with B, but not A. I said earlier that i believed he was lazy, but that it wasnt the only factor... my words were

"just to clarify, i didnt say he wasnt lazy"

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-23-2007, 03:02 PM
you dont soud all that convinced that if he wasnt lazy he would be as amazing as he was in minnesota..

I know you didnt actually say that oaklands offense is better than minnesota, but you did imply that there was no fall off.

You did that when you said that laziness was the only factor why he did bad.
No I never implied our Offense was close to Minnesotas.And I agree if he hadnt been lazy he still wouldnt be as good as he was in Minnesota at least statistically.But if he had actually played hard he could have put more than decent numbers especially when Curry who didnt get half of the playing time he did got over 700 yards.

M.O.T.H.
08-23-2007, 04:19 PM
When Ronald Curry is the 2nd best WR in a division...you have a problem.

I'd go w/ Porter...Kennison being a close 2nd...this of course is behind Walker.

Anyway, next year...Walker #1....Vince Jackson #2.

Average OT LB
08-23-2007, 04:43 PM
No I never implied our Offense was close to Minnesotas.And I agree if he hadnt been lazy he still wouldnt be as good as he was in Minnesota at least statistically.But if he had actually played hard he could have put more than decent numbers especially when Curry who didnt get half of the playing time he did got over 700 yards.

I guess there is where we will go our seperate ways. You feel that his laziness was his only detractor while i feel that the horrible oakland line, bad running game, ineffective passing game, and last place offense was more significant

NFL2007
08-23-2007, 04:45 PM
AFC West: Home of the tight end and running back.

SubNoize
08-23-2007, 05:05 PM
AFC West: Home of the tight end and running back.

Disclaimer: Oakland not included.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-23-2007, 05:18 PM
We've also got some very promising QBs in the division. Three young guys who were top 11 in the draft, including a first overall pick.

CC.SD
08-23-2007, 06:41 PM
We've also got some very promising QBs in the division. Three young guys who were top 11 in the draft, including a first overall pick.

...and Croyle.

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-23-2007, 06:55 PM
Disclaimer: Oakland not included.
Not for long.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-23-2007, 06:59 PM
...and Croyle.

He is the "other" three members of the Jackson 5.

Average OT LB
08-23-2007, 07:40 PM
Not for long.

yeah how long has it been? cant be the worst team in the league for too long..

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-23-2007, 08:22 PM
yeah how long has it been? cant be the worst team in the league for too long..
yeah how long has it been since San Diego went to the SB how long has it been since San Diego won a SB?
Or better yet how long have you been a Charger fan?since they started winning?

Average OT LB
08-23-2007, 08:45 PM
yeah how long has it been since San Diego went to the SB how long has it been since San Diego won a SB?
Or better yet how long have you been a Charger fan?since they started winning?


I've been a charger fan since 1996 when I lived in San Diego. As far as I know oakland hasn't won a super bowl for a long time, still have a messy offense, an have shown few signs of life. I apologize for comments, I am a charger fan and by law I must despise the raiders.

CC.SD
08-24-2007, 01:56 PM
He is the "other" three members of the Jackson 5.

Gotta stop drinking soda while reading this board. If the Chiefs tank it and pick a quarterback high, the AFC West will definitely have a lot of young talent at QB. Uh, if Jamarcus doesn't go back into the draft.

With the 8th overall selection of the 2008 draft, the Chiefs select...Jamarcus Russell. Bowe will rejoice.


Calm down Raider fan, you have to be able to take a little **** talking when your team has done so horribly for so long. The Raiders are back on the road to redemption though.

CC.SD
08-24-2007, 06:45 PM
don't get their hopes up.

It's fun though.

nobodyinparticular
08-24-2007, 06:48 PM
don't get their hopes up.

I'm not 100% in love with your tone right now.