PDA

View Full Version : Backbreaker/ NaturalMotion Technolgy Thread


jballa838
08-22-2007, 11:24 AM
NaturalMotion technology is the future, and Backbreaker is the football game that will have it in 2008.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/814/814249p1.html
Backbreaker site:
http://backbreakergame.com/
What can it do?
Tackle Video
http://www.naturalmotion.com/downloads.htm
More of what it can do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae3fgj2x1aI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4EF9IkhAOo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVpLWnF3MWA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bKphYfUk-M

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 11:30 AM
Whats great about this is we have never seen AI this smart and reactive before. Just imagine how good it will be to play a football game with smart computer AI.

jballa838
08-22-2007, 11:33 AM
Whats great about this is we have never seen AI this smart and reactive before. Just imagine how good it will be to play a football game with smart computer AI.
yeah. supposedly the AI is more like a reaction thing. if you watch one of the videos it shows stormtroopers trying to grab onto beams.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 11:37 AM
In the article it said that at first the couldnt get the guy to walk down a bridge but after tons of work they made it smart enough to not only balance on the bridge but also grab the bridge if its falllen off.

jballa838
08-22-2007, 11:44 AM
the wood breaking is pretty insane too.

Moses
08-22-2007, 11:53 AM
Whats great about this is we have never seen AI this smart and reactive before. Just imagine how good it will be to play a football game with smart computer AI.

Wait, technology is *gasp*...advancing?

;)

jballa838
08-22-2007, 12:07 PM
Wait, technology is *gasp*...advancing?

;)
i know. its crazy.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 12:09 PM
Wait, technology is *gasp*...advancing?

;)

This is not so much advancing as it is new. Since there arent capped animations they arent replicas. The players themselves react to each thing with no preset animation.

Moses
08-22-2007, 12:28 PM
This is not so much advancing as it is new. Since there arent capped animations they arent replicas. The players themselves react to each thing with no preset animation.

...

That is an advancement. Look at Super Nintendo compared to N64. Look at Half-Life compared to Half-Life 2. This happens all the time. Look at games like BioShock, Crysis, Assassin's Creed, etc. that are innovating again. Remember when motion capture first came into Madden and other video games?

trkaline
08-22-2007, 01:02 PM
If they sell there tech to Madden wow.......

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 01:10 PM
...

That is an advancement. Look at Super Nintendo compared to N64. Look at Half-Life compared to Half-Life 2. This happens all the time. Look at games like BioShock, Crysis, Assassin's Creed, etc. that are innovating again. Remember when motion capture first came into Madden and other <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="video%20games" onmouseover="window.status='video games'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">video games</a>?

Dude, read the article. Its not just an improvement in graphics and animations. Its not like in Madden where the polygons on a single next-gen helmet outnumber the total polygons on a whole current-gen player, that is an advancement. What the euphoria engine technology is doing is riddin canned animations which hasnt been done in a game before. All past games have been improved in areas such FPS, Branching animations, graphics, 3d Mapping and such. This is a totally new and innovative technology. Please actually do research or at least read the article before you stand firm on a point like that.

trkaline
08-22-2007, 01:17 PM
This could revolutionize the industry...

Moses
08-22-2007, 01:39 PM
Dude, read the article. Its not just an improvement in graphics and animations. Its not like in Madden where the polygons on a single next-gen helmet outnumber the total polygons on a whole current-gen player, that is an advancement. What the euphoria engine technology is doing is riddin canned animations which hasnt been done in a game before. All past games have been improved in areas such FPS, Branching animations, graphics, 3d Mapping and such. This is a totally new and innovative technology. Please actually do research or at least read the article before you stand firm on a point like that.

How is this advancement any different than the addition of physics into a game? Or the addition of dynamic lighting? Hell, how is it different than creating AI that learns and gets "smarter"?

jballa838
08-22-2007, 02:47 PM
How is this advancement any different than the addition of physics into a game? Or the addition of dynamic lighting? Hell, how is it different than creating AI that learns and gets "smarter"?
because there are no animations... everything is interractive with the enviornment and the speed of the hitter and angle and all that stuff, like where he makes contact and all that. plus in other games the enviornment will be all breakable like real life, and wood will break like wood, plastic like plastic

Moses
08-22-2007, 02:50 PM
because there are no animations... everything is interractive with the enviornment and the speed of the hitter and angle and all that stuff, like where he makes contact and all that. plus in other games the enviornment will be all breakable like real life, and wood will break like wood, plastic like plastic

Those features are already available in a ton of games...Hell, they've been around for 3+ years.

jballa838
08-22-2007, 02:53 PM
Those features are already available in a ton of games...Hell, they've been around for 3+ years.
not this stuff. it is going to be in Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and GTA IV when they come out.
and there are no canned animations, which is a first

Moses
08-22-2007, 02:54 PM
not this stuff. it is going to be in Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and GTA IV when they come out.
and there are no canned animations, which is a first

So it's an upgrade on existing technology...

Brent
08-22-2007, 03:08 PM
Moses is right, this isn't anything new. It's just improvement and this sort of technology isn't groundbreaking.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 04:00 PM
Moses is right, this isn't anything new. It's just improvement and this sort of technology isn't groundbreaking.

Having no canned animations IS groundbreaking.

HoopsDemon12
08-22-2007, 04:07 PM
Having no canned animations IS groundbreaking.

ya this is a whole new way of making games basically

trkaline
08-22-2007, 04:16 PM
It's realism at it's finest what isn't groundbreaking about it???

Moses
08-22-2007, 05:09 PM
Obviously you guys have played little to no FPS games in the past couple years. What canned animations are in games like Half-Life 2? It's all based off of physics, skeletons, etc.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 05:19 PM
Obviously you guys have played little to no FPS games in the past couple years. What canned animations are in games like Half-Life 2? It's all based off of physics, skeletons, etc.

Actually no, its canned animations. When you shoot something its breaks the same way and when you explode something it explodes the same way, differing only by height and amount of explosions. I can play Metal Gear Solid on PSX and experience what your talking about, reactions and such are still canned animation based in those games. As for first person shooters its the same thing.

trkaline
08-22-2007, 05:20 PM
I can say I haven't played any FPS in the last couple of years cant get into them...

Moses
08-22-2007, 05:31 PM
Actually no, its canned animations. When you shoot something its breaks the same way and when you explode something it explodes the same way, differing only by height and amount of explosions. I can play Metal Gear Solid on PSX and experience what your talking about, reactions and such are still canned animation based in those games. As for first person shooters its the same thing.

Are you kidding? Play Half-Life 2 which is about 2-3 years old now. Everything is done with physics. When you shoot something, it calculates the material, angle, what you fired at it, etc. in order to make the animation. When you kill somebody, their body falls and lands in a position according to physics.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 05:41 PM
Are you kidding? Play Half-Life 2 which is about 2-3 years old now. Everything is done with physics. When you shoot something, it calculates the material, angle, what you fired at it, etc. in order to make the animation. When you kill somebody, their body falls and lands in a position according to physics.

All games have implemented physics buddy but never has a game been made were physics are a direct result of physics rather than physics being a result of canned animations like your above post.

Moses
08-22-2007, 05:52 PM
All games have implemented physics buddy but never has a game been made were physics are a direct result of physics rather than physics being a result of canned animations like your above post.

Tell me what difference the end-user will see from this advancement? And then let me know how this is such a huge moment in video game history. Gimme a break. This is another minor advancement, just like high-dynamic range lighting.

WMD
08-22-2007, 05:53 PM
Looks beautiful. It looks. Beautiful.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 06:12 PM
Tell me what difference the end-user will see from this advancement? And then let me know how this is such a huge moment in <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="video%20game" onmouseover="window.status='video game'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">video game</a> history. Gimme a break. This is another minor advancement, just like high-dynamic range lighting.

If you actually dont think theres a difference than you know nothing.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 06:13 PM
Looks beautiful. It looks. Beautiful.

Yea its gonna be great. No release date set yet but I'm expecting it to be Q3 of 08.

HoopsDemon12
08-22-2007, 06:18 PM
Tell me what difference the end-user will see from this advancement? And then let me know how this is such a huge moment in video game history. Gimme a break. This is another minor advancement, just like high-dynamic range lighting.

remember those tackles in madden where your guy will fly right by a player when you hit dive and you like push him forward... that wont happen.. the tackle animations will look liek he is actualyl being hit... no scripted tackles... so you wont get bored of the animation cause there isnt one.. its a new thing each time... thats the difference

neko4
08-22-2007, 06:22 PM
Why are we arguing about this, cant we all just say it looks nice, cant wait for it to come out?

ANyway what are they gonna use for teams in back breaker? made up stuff?

HoopsDemon12
08-22-2007, 06:23 PM
Why are we arguing about this, cant we all just say it looks nice, cant wait for it to come out?

ANyway what are they gonna use for teams in back breaker? made up stuff?

prolly the exact same thing that blitz and htem do... fake teams.. i wanna see this on NCAA though... they could do that right?

neko4
08-22-2007, 06:31 PM
prolly the exact same thing that blitz and htem do... fake teams.. i wanna see this on NCAA though... they could do that right?

i guess so
Its gameplay would blow out NCAA, but the features would be lacking

HoopsDemon12
08-22-2007, 06:35 PM
i guess so
Its gameplay would blow out NCAA, but the features would be lacking

They would finda way to work it in with the systems i think so that... maybe you wouldnt have to put so much on teh disk? like could they do something like that?

Moses
08-22-2007, 06:36 PM
If you actually dont think theres a difference than you know nothing.

It's not the quantum leap you're talking about that's for sure. There are more video games out there than Madden.

HoopsDemon12
08-22-2007, 06:39 PM
It's not the quantum leap you're talking about that's for sure. There are more video games out there than Madden.

ya.. imagine your in a war game... you throw a grnade into the square and chunks of the walls fly off as it explodes.. instead of just falling around them and the same cover animation everyone does a different one.. some hit them .. they fall.. or stumble.. giving you and advatage.. the things this can do is endless... its gonna help games be more realistic by a lot

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 06:52 PM
It's not the <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="quantum%20leap" onmouseover="window.status='quantum leap'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">quantum leap</a> you're talking about that's for sure. There are more <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="video%20games" onmouseover="window.status='video games'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">video games</a> out there than Madden.

I never once referred to Madden. If all your going to do is second guess everything and start arguements than please stop posting in this thread.

Moses
08-22-2007, 06:54 PM
ya.. imagine your in a war game... you throw a grnade into the square and chunks of the walls fly off as it explodes.. instead of just falling around them and the same cover animation everyone does a different one.. some hit them .. they fall.. or stumble.. giving you and advatage.. the things this can do is endless... its gonna help games be more realistic by a lot

Like I've said, technology that does that already exists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqtAQPt9Zs&mode=related&search=

Notice how everything is dynamic.

Madden is years behind the times.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 06:57 PM
Like I've said, technology that does that already exists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqtAQPt9Zs&mode=related&search=

Notice how everything is dynamic.

Madden is years behind the times.

Its apparent that the more you post the more you dont know. What is shown in that video has zero relation to what this thread is about.

Moses
08-22-2007, 07:00 PM
Its apparent that the more you post the more you dont know. What is shown in that video has zero relation to what this thread is about.

Nice argument. You should try coming up with one or two counterpoints.

iowatreat54
08-22-2007, 07:10 PM
ok well I think what Man of Steel was getting at was that in the video you posted, it didn't show anything that the "new" technology or NaturalMotion technology is working on...that video showed advanced animation in the way things looked, i.e. depth perception, realistic shadows, etc. whereas this thread and technology is working more on interaction between characters and environments...this technology advance or new technology has made the AI smarter and able to make its own decisions/reactions in relation to what is happening around it...so in football, players react to getting hit either low, high, hard, soft, whatever...in war games, when someone is shot or hit, their body will react to where they are hit...it is more of an advance in the relationships between things and AI being able to think for itself than animation and graphics being better

Moses
08-22-2007, 07:12 PM
ok well I think what Man of Steel was getting at was that in the video you posted, it didn't show anything that the "new" technology or NaturalMotion technology is working on...that video showed advanced animation in the way things looked, i.e. depth perception, realistic shadows, etc. whereas this thread and technology is working more on interaction between characters and environments...this technology advance or new technology has made the AI smarter and able to make its own decisions/reactions in relation to what is happening around it...so in football, players react to getting hit either low, high, hard, soft, whatever...in war games, when someone is shot or hit, their body will react to where they are hit...it is more of an advance in the relationships between things and AI being able to think for itself than animation and graphics being better

...

Did you not see the physics effects?

When a tree is shot, depending on where it is hit, it will fall a different way. These are not "precanned animations". Same as if you shoot somebody. Their body does not fall the same way everytime. It takes in account what you hit them with and then they ragdoll based on real-world physics.

Yes, this technology is new to the football genre because they use ridiculously outdated technology. If you look at current-gen games coming out, they already have this functionality.

iowatreat54
08-22-2007, 07:17 PM
yea I just watched it a 2nd time and I was focusing more on the things it was focusing on the individually, but I did look closer at shooting the trees and the guys...I just think this technology is working more toward AI independent thinking...so I guess it isn't as much new as it is advancing, which I guess is what you're arguing too? lol

Moses
08-22-2007, 07:17 PM
yea I just watched it a 2nd time and I was focusing more on the things it was focusing on the individually, but I did look closer at shooting the trees and the guys...I just think this technology is working more toward AI independent thinking...so I guess it isn't as much new as it is advancing, which I guess is what you're arguing too? lol

Basically. ;)

I'm just saying this isn't going to be the difference between Super Nintendo and N64 for most people.

iowatreat54
08-22-2007, 07:20 PM
yea...I mean personally, I think it's sweet seeing videos of advancements like this because it makes me more excited to play games...but I'm perfectly content with the way the games are right now and most people won't notice a dramatic difference, you're right...but it's still good to see that they are working toward new things

SubNoize
08-22-2007, 08:35 PM
...

Did you not see the physics effects?

When a tree is shot, depending on where it is hit, it will fall a different way. These are not "precanned animations". Same as if you shoot somebody. Their body does not fall the same way everytime. It takes in account what you hit them with and then they ragdoll based on real-world physics.

Yes, this technology is new to the football genre because they use ridiculously outdated technology. If you look at current-gen games coming out, they already have this functionality.

Actually, when they show the tree being shot, it didn't blow a hole and no chunks of wood came out, it seemed very fake and is nothing like what you see in the videos for this new technology.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 08:36 PM
Actually, when they show the tree being shot, it didn't blow a hole and no chunks of wood came out, it seemed very fake and is nothing like what you see in the videos for this <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="new%20technology" onmouseover="window.status='new technology'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">new technology</a>.

Thank you.

Moses
08-22-2007, 08:40 PM
Actually, when they show the tree being shot, it didn't blow a hole and no chunks of wood came out, it seemed very fake and is nothing like what you see in the videos for this new technology.

Here's a video that shows more what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkyOTUU3Hwc

Watch the end. How is that not physics? Hell, if you've ever played Half-Life 2 or any FPS in the past 2 years you'd know what I was talking about.

Moses
08-22-2007, 08:44 PM
Here's one from Half-Life 2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dggt20D_dC0

A bridge collapsing using real-time physics.

jballa838
08-22-2007, 08:47 PM
Here's one from Half-Life 2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dggt20D_dC0

A bridge collapsing using real-time physics.
Guy walking on bridge in real time physics with NaturalMotion technology.
have fun animating all that

Plus the bridge is going to break the same everytime in Half-Life

SubNoize
08-22-2007, 08:50 PM
Here's a video that shows more what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkyOTUU3Hwc

Watch the end. How is that not physics? Hell, if you've ever played Half-Life 2 or any FPS in the past 2 years you'd know what I was talking about.

I never said it wasn't physics, i was pointing out that some it still seemed generic and unreal. The motion of the characters looks stiff and not as free going as they are in backbreaker or the starwars game. and the way the trees fall down is always the same, they snap at the middle no matter what and fall either left or right. What this new technology would do int hat game is have trees chunk in different spots and break from all different direction and in different spots everytime, which is a big breakthrough but i still think it's far from a revolution and would agree it's similar to a SNES to N64 jump.

Moses
08-22-2007, 08:50 PM
Guy walking on bridge in real time physics with NaturalMotion technology.
have fun animating all that

Plus the bridge is going to break the same everytime in Half-Life

It's not animated for the millionth time. The bridge breaks according to the laws of physics. Depending on what "stress" the game designers put on the bridge, it will break a different way.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 08:51 PM
Here's one from Half-Life 2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dggt20D_dC0

A bridge collapsing using real-time physics.

Dude what is so hard for you to process, that is a canned animation. We have been through this so many times and yet with every post you still have no idea what is going on. The last 3-4 pages have been you argueing on a topic that you obviously know nothing about. Please, go do some research or actualy read what has been posted. If you dont want to do that than please stop posting in this thread because alot of users including myself want to discuss the game instead we have to read your constant ill-informed arguement inciting posts.

Moses
08-22-2007, 08:54 PM
I never said it wasn't physics, i was pointing out that some it still seemed generic and unreal. The motion of the characters looks stiff and not as free going as they are in backbreaker or the starwars game. and the way the trees fall down is always the same, they snap at the middle no matter what and fall either left or right. What this new technology would do int hat game is have trees chunk in different spots and break from all different direction and in different spots everytime, which is a big breakthrough but i still think it's far from a revolution and would agree it's similar to a SNES to N64 jump.

First of all, I'm showing you live footage from video games running in real-time. You're showing footage that is being rendered on a developer's computer. Completely different scenarios.

Also, you are wrong about the trees. Watch the "Breakable Vegetation" part of the video. He clearly shoots a part of a tree right off exactly where he shoots it.

This is not even close to the jump from 2D to 3D. That is laughable.

Moses
08-22-2007, 08:54 PM
Dude what is so hard for you to process, that is a canned animation. We have been through this so many times and yet with every post you still have no idea what is going on. The last 3-4 pages have been you argueing on a topic that you obviously know nothing about. Please, go do some research or actualy read what has been posted. If you dont want to do that than please stop posting in this thread because alot of users including myself want to discuss the game instead we have to read your constant ill-informed arguement inciting posts.

THAT IS NOT A CANNED ANIMATION. It is rendered in real-time using physics. Half-Life 2 does not have "cut scenes".

Moses
08-22-2007, 08:57 PM
CryENGINE2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryENGINE2

* Volumetric 3D Clouds
* Real time Ambient Maps with dynamic lighting and no premade shadows
* 3D Ocean Technology dynamically modifies the ocean surface based on wind and wave direction and creates moving shadows and highlights underwater
* Depth of field to focus on certain objects while blurring out the edges and far away places
* Vector Motion blur on both camera movement and individual objects
* Dynamic Soft shadows with objects casting realistic shadows in real time
* Realistic Facial Animation that can be captured from an actor's face
* Subsurface scattering
* Parallax mapping
* Breakable Buildings allowing more tactical preplanning on the player's side
* Breakable Vegetation enabling players and enemy AI to level entire forests as a tactical maneuver or other purposes
* Advanced Rope Physics showcasing bendable vegetation responding to wind, rain or character movement and realistically interactive rope bridges
* Component Vehicle Damage giving vehicles different destroyable parts, such as tires on jeeps or helicopter blades
* HDR lighting
* Fully interactive and destructible environments
* Advanced particle system with fire or rain being affected by forces such as wind
* Time of Day Lighting, with sunrise, and sunset effects ensuring realistic transition between daytime and nighttime
* Lightbeams and Shafts when light intersects with solid or highly detailed geometry, and can generate "Godray" effects underwater
* Parallax Occlusion Mapping giving a greater sense of depth to a surface texture, realistically emphasizing the relief surface structure of objects
* Long Range View Distance of up to 16km from ingame measurements
* Parametric Skeletal Animation System
* Procedural Motion Warping

jballa838
08-22-2007, 08:58 PM
THAT IS NOT A CANNED ANIMATION. It is rendered in real-time using physics. Half-Life 2 does not have "cut scenes".
it isnt a cut-scene, but it is programmed to fall due to physics because that is what is going to happen at that time. it is rendered but it is set to happen, unlike any tackle in Backbreaker or when anything will break in star wars and the AI of the people will let them react in real time to what is happening.

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:00 PM
it isnt a cut-scene, but it is programmed to fall due to physics because that is what is going to happen at that time. it is rendered but it is set to happen, unlike any tackle in Backbreaker or when anything will break in star wars and the AI of the people will let them react in real time to what is happening.

...

Then watch the rope bridge break in the Crysis video. That is not scripted. If you were to shoot the bridge it would fall in a way according to physics. I can't believe you guys think that players interacting dynamically is a new concept. It has been around for years.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 09:00 PM
THAT IS NOT A CANNED ANIMATION. It is rendered in real-time using physics. Half-Life 2 does not have "cut scenes".

This is ridiculous, yes it is a canned animation. Once again all games have physics, Half Life has good physics to make it look real however it is a pre canned aniamtion, of course the animators put in 2-3 different ways of the bridge breaking but it is a PRE-DETERMINED ANIMATION!

jballa838
08-22-2007, 09:00 PM
from your own article...
Animation System: Playback and blending between motion data (captured or key framed) combined with inverse kinematics (using biomechanical hints) and physical simulations. Special attention was applied to realistic human animation (e.g. adapting to uneven terrain, eye tracking, facial animation, leaning when running around corners, natural motion transitions).

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:03 PM
This is ridiculous, yes it is a canned animation. Once again all games have physics, Half Life has god physics to make it look real however it is a pre canned aniamtion, of course the animators put in 2-3 different ways of the bridge breaking but it is a PRE-DETERMINED ANIMATION!

How do you think ragdoll physics work? A body will fall a different way everytime. It is DYNAMIC PHYSICS.

Animators aren't sitting there putting in 1000 ways for a body, bridge, or barrel to fall. It uses physics to calculate what happens. Try shooting a barrel in Half-Life 2. Is that a precanned animation? Obviously not.

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:04 PM
from your own article...
Animation System: Playback and blending between motion data (captured or key framed) combined with inverse kinematics (using biomechanical hints) and physical simulations. Special attention was applied to realistic human animation (e.g. adapting to uneven terrain, eye tracking, facial animation, leaning when running around corners, natural motion transitions).

LOL exactly. Inverse kinematics...

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 09:04 PM
from your own article...
Animation System: Playback and blending between motion data (captured or key framed) combined with inverse kinematics (using biomechanical hints) and physical simulations. Special attention was applied to realistic human animation (e.g. adapting to uneven terrain, eye tracking, facial animation, leaning when running around corners, natural motion transitions).

OK Moses, you proved yourself wrong, what do you have to say now. Why cant you admit you are wrong?

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:05 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_animation

Quake III Arena. LOL. Even mentions my example, Ragdoll Physics.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 09:06 PM
How do you think ragdoll physics work? A body will fall a different way everytime. It is DYNAMIC PHYSICS.

Animators aren't sitting there putting in 1000 ways for a body, bridge, or barrel to fall. It uses physics to calculate what happens. Try shooting a barrel in Half-Life 2. Is that a precanned animation? Obviously not.

Actually alot of what you just said has to do with collision detectors which trigger the pre-rendered animations.

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:08 PM
Actually alot of what you just said has to do with collision detectors which trigger the pre-rendered animations.

You're wrong. Ragdoll physics is a perfect example of procedural animation, the exact concept that NaturalMotion is based off.

jballa838
08-22-2007, 09:11 PM
You're wrong. Ragdoll physics is a perfect example of procedural animation, the exact concept that NaturalMotion is based off.
ragdoll physics is just that. a ragdoll that wont react, while NaturalMotion will have the physics related people react to the envoirnment and try and grab onto stuff.
Ragdoll people will just fall off a cliff.

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:16 PM
ragdoll physics is just that. a ragdoll that wont react, while NaturalMotion will have the physics related people react to the envoirnment and try and grab onto stuff.
Ragdoll people will just fall off a cliff.

Because they're dead? Why would they grab something? That is an AI issue and has nothing to do with the enhancements brought about in NaturalMotion. Watch the beginning of the HL2 video, the girl hanging onto the bar.

Like I've been saying, NaturalMotion is just an extension of something that already exists. There is no need for tacking or the like in FPSes right now so they haven't used their technology for things like that. Also, technology is only now allowing things like this to be rendered in real-time.

What is innovative about this technology? This: it takes procedural animation to the next level by attempting to animate as much as possible using it. Current gen stuff tends to only use it for certain things like ragdoll physics, particle systems, etc.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 09:19 PM
LOL exactly. Inverse kinematics...

Okay you obviously dont know what Inverse Kinematics is. Let me inform you its a setup to an animation where a start and endpoint is determined.

You're wrong. Ragdoll physics is a perfect example of procedural animation, the exact concept that NaturalMotion is based off.

Natural Motion isnt the engine so obviously your spewing alot of BS. Euphoria is the new engine and its made by natural motion. Games like UT3 and Half life use procedural animation. The animations that are in Backbreak are simular to procedural animation but only are completley 100% real-time.

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:23 PM
Okay you obviously dont know what Inverse Kinematics is. Let me inform you its a setup to an animation where a start and endpoint is determined.



Natural Motion isnt the engine so obviously your spewing alot of BS. Euphoria is the new engine and its made by natural motion. Games like UT3 and Half life use procedural animation. The animations that are in Backbreak are simular to procedural animation but only are completley 100% real-time.

Wow, I called it NaturalMotion instead of "euphoria" or whatever they call it. That somehow makes my argument defunct?

You're agreeing with me here. Euphoria renders everything in real-time whereas current gen renders only things that really need it in real-time. That is what you call an advancement.

jballa838
08-22-2007, 09:23 PM
Because they're dead? Why would they grab something? That is an AI issue and has nothing to do with the enhancements brought about in NaturalMotion. Watch the beginning of the HL2 video, the girl hanging onto the bar.

.
so if you push someone off a cliff they will just ragdoll instead of trying to grab a branch or something like they would in NaturalMotion video games

Wow, I called it NaturalMotion instead of "euphoria" or whatever they call it. That somehow makes my argument defunct?

You're agreeing with me here. Euphoria renders everything in real-time whereas current gen renders only things that really need it in real-time. That is what you call an advancement.

yes it does, and it is a major advancement because nothing is close to it.
so you just adreed to him

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:24 PM
so if you push someone off a cliff they will just ragdoll instead of trying to grab a branch or something like they would in NaturalMotion video games

That is an AI issue and has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

jballa838
08-22-2007, 09:26 PM
That is an AI issue and has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
it does because that is what it does too. it is more then enviornment, it is everything.

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:28 PM
it does because that is what it does too. it is more then enviornment, it is everything.

Actually, euphoria is an animation system. It does not have anything to do with AI.

jballa838
08-22-2007, 09:30 PM
Actually, euphoria is an animation system. It does not have anything to do with AI.
o rly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVpLWnF3MWA

Moses
08-22-2007, 09:34 PM
o rly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVpLWnF3MWA

That is not the impressive thing about this technology. How is that any different than guys throwing grenades back at you in HL2? This is innovative because it uses procedural animation of a grander scale. The AI still has to be programmed in just like in every other game.

Man_Of_Steel
08-22-2007, 09:34 PM
Actually, euphoria is an animation system. It does not have anything to do with AI.

Actualy yes it does. The characters real time animation is dependent on the charcters knowlegde of what is around him, body, mind, muscles everything is dependent on AI and the Euphoria system does it. The Euphoria engine is both animation and AI, thats common knowledge if you should know since you are pressing this arguement.

awfullyquiet
08-23-2007, 04:20 PM
Wait. who's actually a programmer around here?

That would be me.

There's three problems I see with natural motion. Yes, moses is right, it's not revolutionary, it's just focusing on a part that most people think aren't as necessary, especially considering the current hardware trends...

To get something to be rendered real time 100% of the time, like what's been shown, no current gen platform, not even the PS3 can do what they're thinking. Only the highest end computers can compete in that.

Half-Life 2 doesn't exclusively used pre-canned animations because it doesn't need to. It uses physics, and with less important things, like as said, bridges blowing up... it will blow up the same every time? why? because, you can determine it, structural engineers do it every day, they can plan out how to blow up a building, and 99/100 times it will blow up in exactly the same way because it's all calculated so precisely... does it need to be that way? i think people also neglect when they're discussing this, half life is 3 yrs old. A lot of what half life does though is AI considerations (and the sheer amount of time that it would take to program such considerations and the tweeking them really made it unrealistic for valve to do that... when you increase complexity, product delivery time increases and product cost increases...) i've watched some of my developer friends in their spare time write code using the Unreal 3 engine... and they're like, good developers... they can come up with that in the spare time on a small scale... sure, if naturalmotion has an engine that makes it easier, i'm sure it'll be great, but will it benefit gameplay? not as much as you say it will. especially in the context of football. football right now could be made so much better (but that's EA's fault), it could involve more dynamic collisions, but they don't.

so.
yeah. unless there's something that i missed, it doesn't sound as revolutionary as you'd believe.

Man_Of_Steel
08-23-2007, 06:29 PM
Wait. who's actually a programmer around here?

That would be me.

There's three problems I see with natural motion. Yes, moses is right, it's not revolutionary, it's just focusing on a part that most people think aren't as necessary, especially considering the current hardware trends...

To get something to be rendered real time 100% of the time, like what's been shown, no current gen platform, not even the PS3 can do what they're thinking. Only the highest end computers can compete in that.

Half-Life 2 doesn't exclusively used pre-canned animations because it doesn't need to. It uses physics, and with less important things, like as said, bridges blowing up... it will blow up the same every time? why? because, you can determine it, structural engineers do it every day, they can plan out how to blow up a building, and 99/100 times it will blow up in exactly the same way because it's all calculated so precisely... does it need to be that way? i think people also neglect when they're discussing this, <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="half%20life" onmouseover="window.status='half life'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">half life</a> is 3 yrs old. A lot of what half life does though is AI considerations (and the sheer amount of time that it would take to program such considerations and the tweeking them really made it unrealistic for valve to do that... when you increase complexity, product delivery time increases and product cost increases...) i've watched some of my developer friends in their spare time write code using the Unreal 3 engine... and they're like, good developers... they can come up with that in the spare time on a small scale... sure, if naturalmotion has an engine that makes it easier, i'm sure it'll be great, but will it benefit gameplay? not as much as you say it will. especially in the context of football. football right now could be made so much better (but that's EA's fault), it could involve more dynamic collisions, but they don't.

so.
yeah. unless there's something that i missed, it doesn't sound as revolutionary as you'd believe.

Actually a PS3 can run 100% real-time.

awfullyquiet
08-24-2007, 05:42 PM
Actually a PS3 can run 100% real-time.

well, sure it can run 100% real time with current programming trends.
in three years, i'm not 100% sure.

Man_Of_Steel
08-29-2007, 11:29 PM
http://backbreakergame.com/

Backbreaker's official site.

Man_Of_Steel
09-01-2007, 01:45 AM
I really cant wait for more info of this game to be announced.

Man_Of_Steel
09-01-2007, 02:47 AM
http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=541&page=1

Interview with one of the producers.

jballa838
09-01-2007, 10:43 AM
http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=541&page=1

Interview with one of the producers.
that was awesome. 3rd person view sounds tight

Man_Of_Steel
09-04-2007, 01:11 PM
This would be the ideal game engine for the new UFC game.

trkaline
09-04-2007, 01:22 PM
Truthfully I want that in every game....

jballa838
01-28-2008, 10:27 PM
Crazy Game.
Controls of their upcoming game is here:
http://forum.backbreakergame.com/showthread.php?t=413
and more info to be posted about the game in here soon.

M.O.T.H.
01-29-2008, 12:28 AM
I hate the hulking player models.

jballa838
02-29-2008, 08:49 PM
The sounds of the game Dev Diary 5:
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/855/855627p1.html

EDIT: BTW this is amazingly detailed sounds.

awfullyquiet
02-29-2008, 10:23 PM
impressed with the sound.

really. i'm an audiophile, and think that no one puts enough effort into game soundtracks and effects. in another life, i wish i was a foley.

jballa838
04-15-2008, 02:27 PM
Gameplay Video!!!!!!!!
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/866/866627p1.html