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Komp
08-28-2007, 10:40 PM
I sort of have tunnel vision on the whole JR situation, but are there any other 1st rd prospects still not signed?

Shiver
08-28-2007, 10:41 PM
Russell is the only one that remains unsigned. It's rather ridiculous. Typical of the Raiders' (dis-)organization.

Xonraider
08-28-2007, 10:51 PM
Russell is the only one that remains unsigned. It's rather ridiculous. Typical of the Raiders' (dis-)organization.

You would give Russell 35 million in guaranteed money even though he hasn't played 1 snap in the NFL?

PalmerToCJ
08-28-2007, 10:54 PM
You would give Russell 35 million in guaranteed money even though he hasn't played 1 snap in the NFL?

They missed out on the beauty of negotiating before the draft, you have a lot more leverage there.

Shiver
08-28-2007, 11:00 PM
They missed out on the beauty of negotiating before the draft, you have a lot more leverage there.

That's why no #1 overall pick has held out since Orlando Pace. There is just no excuse for it.

Xonraider
08-28-2007, 11:02 PM
They missed out on the beauty of negotiating before the draft, you have a lot more leverage there.

That's pretty much what I've been saying all along, but there is no such thing as a time machine, so now we have to deal with what we have, and that is an arrogant Russell and his agents demanding 35 million dollars.

Shiver
08-28-2007, 11:04 PM
I wonder what the odds are that the Raiders say 'screw it' and throw him back? Probably very, very slim.

PackerLegend
08-28-2007, 11:06 PM
I think the Raiders should have took Calvin Johnson, I see Russel turning into the next Dante Culpepper and Calvin Johnson the old Moss without the attitude.

saintsfan912
08-28-2007, 11:32 PM
That's pretty much what I've been saying all along, but there is no such thing as a time machine, so now we have to deal with what we have, and that is an arrogant Russell and his agents demanding 35 million dollars.

Of course it isn't the organizations fault for not giving the most gifted QB to ever come out the money he will deserve. Its the nature of the beast. Pay the damn man his money and get him into camp. Al Davis needs to stop being such a douche and pay the man.

neko4
08-28-2007, 11:35 PM
Of course it isn't the organizations fault for not giving the most gifted QB to ever come out the money he will deserve. Its the nature of the beast. Pay the damn man his money and get him into camp. Al Davis needs to stop being such a douche and pay the man.

How is he the most gifted QB, just cuz he can throw the ball 60 yards easier than any QB can. Like ive said before how many times do you need to throw 60 yards in a game. When it comes to every pass but the deep ones Quinn is more accurate.

PACKmanN
08-28-2007, 11:36 PM
Of course it isn't the organizations fault for not giving the most gifted QB to ever come out the money he will deserve. Its the nature of the beast. Pay the damn man his money and get him into camp. Al Davis needs to stop being such a douche and pay the man.

you can say the same thing about Russell and his agents. If he gets 35 million in grantee this year imagine how much next years first overall pick will want. When will this madness end!

Beans
08-28-2007, 11:37 PM
Of course it isn't the organizations fault for not giving the most gifted QB to ever come out the money he will deserve. Its the nature of the beast. Pay the damn man his money and get him into camp. Al Davis needs to stop being such a douche and pay the man.

When did Jamarcus Russell become the greatest QB prospect ever?

PalmerToCJ
08-28-2007, 11:37 PM
I wonder what the odds are that the Raiders say 'screw it' and throw him back? Probably very, very slim.

I've actually thought the same thing. I mean, it's not like Russell wouldn't lose out as well. It's to the benefit of both sides that he gets signed, I really don't see it reaching that point but there's always a chance...

And I see what you're saying Xon.

EDIT: And wow at Russel being the most gifted QB ever.

saintsfan912
08-28-2007, 11:51 PM
I meant physically gifted, sorry. And not one of you can say a thing about that. And about that guaranteed money thing, the range of money goes up every year. It goes up along with the salary cap, thats just the way the NFL goes. At least its not like ****** ass baseball where they let teams try and buy championships. Notice how I said try, cough Yankees.

nobodyinparticular
08-28-2007, 11:53 PM
But how easy would it be for Russell's agents to feign agreement to the vague terms of a deal only so that the Raiders were to draft Russell, and then change their demands after that? Seriously, it's the ultimate strategy because who wants to lose the #1 overall draft pick for nothing? The agents could then make any demands they want thinking that they have the team by the nuts.

nobodyinparticular
08-28-2007, 11:55 PM
I meant physically gifted, sorry. And not one of you can say a thing about that. And about that guaranteed money thing, the range of money goes up every year. It goes up along with the salary cap, thats just the way the NFL goes. At least its not like ****** ass baseball where they let teams try and buy championships. Notice how I said try, cough Yankees.

Yes, the Raiders have made an offer for a $5 million increase from the money that the last #1 pick got, which was a solid increase from the year before.

Stop being a blind LSU homer and see that $35 million in guarantees is crazy talk. Especially considering that Russell wants it in untouchable "option bonus" money so that if he holds out or gets in trouble with the law/NFL the Raiders are in massible cap trouble.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-28-2007, 11:59 PM
Most gifted ever is probably stretching it, but Mayock did say most gifted since Elway. And Neko, I gotta disagree, Russell was accurate all over, Quinn had some real struggles. Leading up to the draft, Mayock was showing video, and Quinn was taking his back foot off the ground too early, resulting in throws that were off. Russell did not have that problem.

saintsfan912
08-28-2007, 11:59 PM
I'm not a blind LSU homer. Yea, I am an LSU fanatic and to tell you the truth, would rather have Matt Flynn as our QB than Russell so its not about him. Its about being a #1 pick and him wanting to secure his future. What happens if he gets hurt by getting sacked a million times behind that pathetic excuse for a line and won't be able to play again? Then what?

nobodyinparticular
08-29-2007, 12:28 AM
I'm not a blind LSU homer. Yea, I am an LSU fanatic and to tell you the truth, would rather have Matt Flynn as our QB than Russell so its not about him. Its about being a #1 pick and him wanting to secure his future. What happens if he gets hurt by getting sacked a million times behind that pathetic excuse for a line and won't be able to play again? Then what?

Then he can live on the $31 million that he got up front.

energizerbunny
08-29-2007, 12:34 AM
If he busts you won't have to look much further past the fact that he probally threw to 3 first round WRs at LSU


35 guranteed is absolutely rediculous though, even if he does have one of the best arms in the history of the game.Even though he probally wasn't going to play this year anyway, He needs to get on the roster and start learning Kiffins offence.

Caddy
08-29-2007, 12:39 AM
I meant physically gifted, sorry. And not one of you can say a thing about that. And about that guaranteed money thing, the range of money goes up every year. It goes up along with the salary cap, thats just the way the NFL goes. At least its not like ****** ass baseball where they let teams try and buy championships. Notice how I said try, cough Yankees.

Michael Vick was quite the prospect coming out of college.

BuckNaked
08-29-2007, 12:40 AM
Michael Vick was quite the prospect coming out of college.

Same with Jim Sorgi.

Ewing
08-29-2007, 01:04 AM
You would give Russell 35 million in guaranteed money even though he hasn't played 1 snap in the NFL?

You would rather have Josh McCown as your quarterback?

BuckNaked
08-29-2007, 01:06 AM
You would rather have Josh McCown as your quarterback?

Actually Daunte Culpepper

Ewing
08-29-2007, 01:17 AM
Actually Daunte Culpepper

His knee is made of jello at this point, one hit to the leg and he'll go down quicker than a Thai hooker.

BuckNaked
08-29-2007, 02:03 AM
His knee is made of jello at this point, one hit to the leg and he'll go down quicker than a Thai hooker.

I like the comparison. Touche.

wogitalia
08-29-2007, 03:40 AM
Hard to believe he is still holding out.

Too me neither side is really at fault on this one. This is the one and basically only area where the NBA is better. Scaled rookie contracts are the best thing they have in their horrible CBA. The NFL is at fault on this one and it's unfortunate that the team and player are both so stubborn that this is the end result. Needs to be changed now rather than later.

As for the hold out... JaMarcus is being greedy, the Raiders are being stupid. Pick whichever you think is worse. I mean if he is your QB of the future like they think than he is worth what he is asking, by taking him you think he is the best prospect in this draft and a superbowl caliber QB. So pay him and get him on the training track.

Worst thing about this hold out is that JR is the guy in this draft that most needed a great training camp and preseason. He really is behind mentally in the game and is clearly prone to rapid weight gain, last thing he needs is to be sitting on his ass doing nothing.

Finally... WOW at the "Best Prospect ever" thing. He was arguably the better QB in this draft that's weak for QB. He has a big arm and is big and has been alright mentally. He is slow though, in both mental and physical meaning. Was the weaker scrambling of the two first round QBs. Certainly not the best physical QB ever. Vick has a slightly weaker arm and is much more mobile. Culpepper is far more mobile and had a comparable arm. Hell Ryan Leaf had a comparable arm and mobility. Mentally he isnt in the top 50.

To be honest, if the Raiders were picking 10th instead of 1st, I think JR still ends up with them. Al Davis fell in love with him, which historically means nothing good, and as a result he went first, but talent wise, he isnt that good imo. So I guess in a way I can understand them not wanting to cough up the extra money. You've got mid 1st round talent wanting out of this world money.

Windy
08-29-2007, 04:56 AM
Al Davis fell in love with him, which historically means nothing good

historically? you've got to be kidding. lately his skills as a Owner/GM have diminished but to say historically is absolutely insane.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-29-2007, 11:03 AM
Jamarcus would have been the #1 QB taken, no matter what. There is a reason why Quinn didn't go until 22 picks later.

djp
08-29-2007, 11:34 AM
Vick was the most physically gifted QB.. his arm strength and foot speed will probably never be matched again.

saintsfan912
08-29-2007, 04:29 PM
Hard to believe he is still holding out.

Too me neither side is really at fault on this one. This is the one and basically only area where the NBA is better. Scaled rookie contracts are the best thing they have in their horrible CBA. The NFL is at fault on this one and it's unfortunate that the team and player are both so stubborn that this is the end result. Needs to be changed now rather than later.

As for the hold out... JaMarcus is being greedy, the Raiders are being stupid. Pick whichever you think is worse. I mean if he is your QB of the future like they think than he is worth what he is asking, by taking him you think he is the best prospect in this draft and a superbowl caliber QB. So pay him and get him on the training track.

Worst thing about this hold out is that JR is the guy in this draft that most needed a great training camp and preseason. He really is behind mentally in the game and is clearly prone to rapid weight gain, last thing he needs is to be sitting on his ass doing nothing.

Finally... WOW at the "Best Prospect ever" thing. He was arguably the better QB in this draft that's weak for QB. He has a big arm and is big and has been alright mentally. He is slow though, in both mental and physical meaning. Was the weaker scrambling of the two first round QBs. Certainly not the best physical QB ever. Vick has a slightly weaker arm and is much more mobile. Culpepper is far more mobile and had a comparable arm. Hell Ryan Leaf had a comparable arm and mobility. Mentally he isnt in the top 50.

To be honest, if the Raiders were picking 10th instead of 1st, I think JR still ends up with them. Al Davis fell in love with him, which historically means nothing good, and as a result he went first, but talent wise, he isnt that good imo. So I guess in a way I can understand them not wanting to cough up the extra money. You've got mid 1st round talent wanting out of this world money.

Did you ever even watch one of his games? I'm gonna guess no. He has very good speed for a 6'5 250 pound monster.

cardsalltheway
08-29-2007, 04:37 PM
How is he the most gifted QB, just cuz he can throw the ball 60 yards easier than any QB can. Like ive said before how many times do you need to throw 60 yards in a game. When it comes to every pass but the deep ones Quinn is more accurate.

It's not about being able to throw the ball 60 yards, its about having the arm strength to put a good zip on the ball on the normal throws, which JR is very good at doing. This may be way off, but I remember a reputable poster here saying that Quinn wasn't even the #2 QB on some teams' boards?

San Diego Chicken
08-29-2007, 04:39 PM
The longer this drags out, the worse off Russell will be. This is reminiscent of the Akili Smith holdout. If you as a QB are not around during installation, you can forget about making a contribution any time soon.

PACKmanN
08-29-2007, 04:43 PM
Jamarcus would have been the #1 QB taken, no matter what. There is a reason why Quinn didn't go until 22 picks later.

all of the teams except Miami didn't need a qb.

TimD
08-29-2007, 04:43 PM
Yeah i COMPLETELY agree that Russell is worse than Quinn.... (taste the sarcasm)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuHXGVudSGw (mobility and arm strength)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t1OuNvdGL0 (he can get some yards using his legs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYbpxE5sgkA (25 yards right on the money)

M.O.T.H.
08-29-2007, 04:47 PM
Why does everyone think being the next Daunte Culpepper is a bad thing? First, I'll say this...I def. like him more than Culpepper coming out and I'm expecting a great career out of him. Anyway, back to the point...pre-injury Daunte Culpepper was one of the best Qb's in the league and that 2004 season was one of the greatest seasons by a QB ever. People tend to forget how good Culpepper really was.

LonghornsLegend
08-29-2007, 04:53 PM
Yes, the Raiders have made an offer for a $5 million increase from the money that the last #1 pick got, which was a solid increase from the year before.

Stop being a blind LSU homer and see that $35 million in guarantees is crazy talk. Especially considering that Russell wants it in untouchable "option bonus" money so that if he holds out or gets in trouble with the law/NFL the Raiders are in massible cap trouble.



oh please...im tired of raiders fans blaming it on Russell...the smart thing is to talk to him before hand, and his agent pre-draft...see what his ballpark figure is, when he throws out a figure that you dont want to pay, DONT DRAFT HIM! plain and simple...if you want a qb still move down and take quinn, if not take CJ at one and hope for the best with what you have...


but you dont take a qb #1, and then be stingy with the money, as bad as you guys were...if you dont want to pay that much in general, usually you take the best offer, move down and pay some guy an average price who wont help you win any games

LonghornsLegend
08-29-2007, 04:57 PM
all of the teams except Miami didn't need a qb.

like who? the lions, vikings, browns, bucs, all dont have a qb of the future, along with miami...everyone has a guy they can plug in and play now, but neither has a young guy they are set with..and they all passed on quinn, i highly doubt the same would of been said if Jr was there

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-29-2007, 05:10 PM
all of the teams except Miami didn't need a qb.

Please. If you don't have a surefire franchise QB or VERY promising QB of the future, you take an elite QB prospect, without a doubt. The Lions, Browns, Bucs, Vikings, Dolphins, and Jaguars all fit this bill. If he was elite, one of those teams would have taken him. By not taking him, they were saying they had better options. Just like Houston did by trading for Schaub pre-draft.

SubNoize
08-29-2007, 05:21 PM
His knee is made of jello at this point, one hit to the leg and he'll go down quicker than a Thai hooker.

his knees looked fine dragging a bunch of Rams here....

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site571/2007/0825/20070825__raiders25~08_Gallery.jpg

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-29-2007, 06:58 PM
oh please...im tired of raiders fans blaming it on Russell...the smart thing is to talk to him before hand, and his agent pre-draft...see what his ballpark figure is, when he throws out a figure that you dont want to pay, DONT DRAFT HIM! plain and simple...if you want a qb still move down and take quinn, if not take CJ at one and hope for the best with what you have...


but you dont take a qb #1, and then be stingy with the money, as bad as you guys were...if you dont want to pay that much in general, usually you take the best offer, move down and pay some guy an average price who wont help you win any games
Uhh no we did talk with Russell about this before the draft.And he wanted 30-32 in gurantees.We offered him 31 and he didnt take it.Him and is agents are the ones that are causing the problems.

wogitalia
08-30-2007, 03:02 AM
Did you ever even watch one of his games? I'm gonna guess no. He has very good speed for a 6'5 250 pound monster.

He is fairly fast for a 6'5 250 pound monster. He is not fast by NFL standards or QB standards though. He has good pocket sense and he moves well but he isnt a scrambler, he couldn't do it in college he isnt going to do it in the NFL. Physically he is as mobile as most QB's are(Brady, Quinn, Manning and co). He isnt a stiff like Bledsloe but he isnt going to be doing anything major with his legs. I swear that because he is black people seem to get the misconception that he can run or something. As far as mobility goes, he wasn't the most mobile QB taken in the first round this year...

If you don't have a surefire franchise QB or VERY promising QB of the future, you take an elite QB prospect, without a doubt. The Lions, Browns, Bucs, Vikings, Dolphins, and Jaguars all fit this bill. If he was elite, one of those teams would have taken him. By not taking him, they were saying they had better options. Just like Houston did by trading for Schaub pre-draft.

Who is to say the same teams didnt feel the same about JR? I heard a lot of hype of teams that thought Quinn was the better QB or that other guys altogether were. It was a very weak draft for QB. JR has the measurables and Quinn the college performances but neither is a sure fire franchise guy. Neither is better than a Cutler or Leinart last year. Neither are better prospects than Brohm or a couple of others next year. Both picked great years to come out because they basically were the only options. JR could just as easily have fallen to the 20s if the Raiders dont fall in love with him and now they dont even want to pay him.