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nobodyinparticular
09-10-2007, 02:17 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3012989

This is not the first time that this conversation has come up in recent months, but here is some solid material to work with here. Officials confiscated a tape from the Patriots' sideline and placed it in a sealed container to be sent to the NFL league offices to be analyzed. Not only is New England suspected of using cameras to steal signals from the Jets' coordinators, but also something to do with the helmet radio frequencies. Now, if I am correct (of which I'm 99% sure) there is no written rule against stealing signals and plays during the game, just like in baseball. But, also like in baseball, it is a bit of an unwritten rule that you shouldn't do that, just out of respect.

So what are everyone's thoughts on this? Punishment or no punishment? Should they change the rulebook? And is it generally ok to do this or is it truly bush league to steal signals?

P-L
09-10-2007, 02:23 PM
If there is no rule against it, they shouldn't be punished. A rule should also be made if there isn't one already. Although it is extremely unethical.

Addict
09-10-2007, 02:25 PM
If there is no rule against it, they shouldn't be punished. A rule should also be made if there isn't one already. Although it is extremely unethical.

I agree their asses should be fined (at the very least) for this.

lol 'it's like they know what we're gonna do before we do it', guess what, they DID.

Vince Lombardi
09-10-2007, 02:25 PM
I think it crosses the line from competitive edge into cheating. If you can figure out someones signals while on the sidelines then more power too you, but to have hidden surveillance set up is extremely poor sportsmanship and kind of an acknowledgement that you can't win the game based on your own merits.

HEISMANHERSCHEL
09-10-2007, 02:29 PM
I think it is not fair, as well. But you can see the signal callers covering their mouths, so they are all trying to steal plays and they all know it. Not very professional at all, though.

Addict
09-10-2007, 02:31 PM
I didn't know the pats made Richard M. Nixon club president?

nobodyinparticular
09-10-2007, 02:34 PM
My only beef would be that it has to be an even playing field. If you have this as a "home field advantage" where you have your own cameras set up to steal signs, but the visiting team doesn't have the same technology at their disposal then it is tipping the scales too far. In this case, New England was the away team so that's not what was going on.

I also don't believe there should be a rule against it. Now the stuff about radio frequencies, that's a whole different matter, but studying tape of arm motions, lip reading etc--that's all public anyway so there's no practical way that you can truly stop that. It's important for coaches to come up with a system of communication complex enough that opposing teams can't "decode" what they are trying to communicate. That's on their shoulders.

VoteLynnSwan
09-10-2007, 02:38 PM
just more proof that The Patriots have no class.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-10-2007, 02:43 PM
just more proof that The Patriots have no class.

I just think it's funny how announcers say they are such a class organization, for nothing else other than the fact that they always win and have an all american QB, yet players frequently leave due to unfair contract negotiations and their players are juicing up. If they weren't so good we wouldn't consider them a "class" organization.

Shiver
09-10-2007, 02:48 PM
Don't forget Bill Belicheck never, ever gives an honest injury report. That guy will do whatever shady technique he can do to give his team the best chance to win.

Green Bay Scat
09-10-2007, 02:55 PM
remember the Giants didnt want to use the "Cooling system" that the Cowboys had last night cause they didnt know what theirs were gonna do, so they just said **** it.

Addict
09-10-2007, 02:56 PM
Bill Belicheck is the Jose Mourinho of football (he's a soccer coach, for chelsea, same type)

JK17
09-10-2007, 03:22 PM
I'm not entirely certain, and I'm probably very confused so don't jump down my throat if I'm wrong, but didn't Brady and the Patriots have this happen to them, by Miami, and flip out about it?

Or was that a different team/situation, I really don't remember...something to do with snap counts.

nobodyinparticular
09-10-2007, 03:47 PM
I'm not entirely certain, and I'm probably very confused so don't jump down my throat if I'm wrong, but didn't Brady and the Patriots have this happen to them, by Miami, and flip out about it?

Or was that a different team/situation, I really don't remember...something to do with snap counts.

Now that you mention it, I seem to remember the same thing after the defense absolutely pummeled the Patriots offense. Maybe I have the teams wrong, but that is what I remember as well.

yo123
09-10-2007, 03:53 PM
How is there not a rule against this? Its obviously cheating.

JK17
09-10-2007, 03:54 PM
Now that you mention it, I seem to remember the same thing after the defense absolutely pummeled the Patriots offense. Maybe I have the teams wrong, but that is what I remember as well.

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2006/12/dolphins_blast_.html

What happened was the Dolphins were accused of purchasing audio tape of Brady's cadence...When asked about this he then responded...

When Brady was asked if he thought the Dolphins knew his calls at the line of scrimmage, he wasn't amused.

"Someone told me about that on Monday. But I don’t see that. I would love to see evidence of that," Brady said in a team-released transcript. "I mean, our defense knows what our line calls are. It doesn’t matter. They can say that, but I think that is a big crock of you know what. I think it’s a matter of how we played. If you ask them, it probably sounds good for them to say that they have it all figured out, but, you know, they’re 6-7 and we’re 9-4, so you tell me who’s got it more figured out.''

Addict
09-10-2007, 04:13 PM
How is there not a rule against this? Its obviously cheating.

well we're not sure there isn't.

nfrillman
09-10-2007, 04:16 PM
I am not surprised at all. The Patriots are a dirty team from top to bottom. This camera spying, Belicheck lying on injury reports, Rodney, and their method of pass interfering or defensive backs holding every play because they know the refs won't call it every time, even though they should.

Eaglez.Fan
09-10-2007, 04:17 PM
Do whatever you can to win. It's simple. All teams can do it.

ShutDwn
09-10-2007, 04:18 PM
Makes me wonder if they taped the Jets last year.

If you watched the game you saw Tom Brady able to stand flat footed in the pocket and go through 4 progressions easily. They picked up NY's blitz like they were only rushing two lineman.

Smooth Criminal
09-10-2007, 04:20 PM
This whole thing could be avoided by letting one defensive player wear a mic just like the an. That was there are no signals from the sidelines.

Addict
09-10-2007, 04:21 PM
Makes me wonder if they taped the Jets last year.

If you watched the game you saw Tom Brady able to stand flat footed in the pocket and go through 4 progressions easily. They picked up NY's blitz like they were only rushing two lineman.

you got beat, get over it, don't start conspiracy theories.

ShutDwn
09-10-2007, 04:25 PM
you got beat, get over it, don't start conspiracy theories.

wow.

I'm totally a Jets fan. Yep.

bored of education
09-10-2007, 04:30 PM
It's not the 1st time they have been accused of this.

yo123
09-10-2007, 04:34 PM
Do whatever you can to win. It's simple. All teams can do it.



So forget the intergrity of the game?

JETS5128
09-10-2007, 04:38 PM
you got beat, get over it, don't start conspiracy theories.

Look at his sig chief

Also, apparently the pats did this to the packers too, but the pack didn't file a complaint to the nfl. Could have an effect on the punishment

CC.SD
09-10-2007, 04:52 PM
I'd brush this off...if it were the first time they'd been accused.

Ravens1991
09-10-2007, 04:56 PM
Do you think that Mangeni(sp) could have told the NFL officials that that happened. Mangeni was a Patriot coach so he could have known they do that.

TimD
09-10-2007, 05:09 PM
take away the win! i'm a jets fan, i don't care how we get a win as long as one gets there!

niel89
09-10-2007, 05:22 PM
If there is no rule against it, they shouldn't be punished. A rule should also be made if there isn't one already. Although it is extremely unethical.

there is a rule about video taping the opposing DC. if the pats do get punished it will come in the form of draft picks.

remix 6
09-10-2007, 05:32 PM
im pretty sure its common. i wont deny if we do it or not..i'll let the league and team do that but i remember Dolphins had that issue and there were other teams.

SuperKevin
09-10-2007, 05:50 PM
As if I needed another reason to hate the Patriots.

BrownsTown
09-10-2007, 05:59 PM
Yet more evidence on the Bill Belicheck is a jerk pile.

If they did this they definately should be punished. Stealing signs sometimes doesn't even give you an advantage, this clearly does. If you know what play is being run, you know exactly how to stop it.

diabsoule
09-10-2007, 06:23 PM
I would have let this slide if this was the first time I had heard this concerning the Patriots, but it's not. This time the NFL should definitely be investigating what is going on. I can't believe a team would be this classless in trying to get a win, if this is true that is.

My opinion on this is that the Pats are doing something wrong. You do not hear of other teams in the league being caught doing these kinds of things. It's only the Pats.

Shiver
09-10-2007, 06:26 PM
If they are willing to list Tom Brady on the injury report with a shoulder injury for three consecutive years, I wouldn't put anything past them.

Jay
09-10-2007, 07:03 PM
As far as the camera thing... they are investigating... sounds pretty stupid to me... don't even understand the benefit of doing it... it's not like someone could relay the message down to the field in time for the play to start, and no guarantee it would even matter. If it's true, it's just a really stupid thing to do... but I've heard there is a lot of crying going on from the Jets too so we'll see what the deal is... why couldn't they just have had a photographer do it like every other team?

But I see no difference in doing this then I do the Jets bringing in about every guy the Patriots cut this week with no intention of signing them and trying to get their plays off of them...

yodabear
09-10-2007, 07:08 PM
The are ******* great to begin with, why do they need to be ******* cheaters.

BrownsTown
09-10-2007, 07:09 PM
The are ******* great to begin with, why do they need to be ******* cheaters.

Cause Belicheck's an asshole.

P-L
09-10-2007, 07:20 PM
Where are all the innocent until proven guilty people?

bored of education
09-10-2007, 07:23 PM
They have been accused of this more than once before. And the NFL coach doesn't say OMG I THINK THEY ARE CHEATING. The NFL has officials all over the palce and I think NFL personel made the decision and accusation. I maybe wrong.

remix 6
09-10-2007, 07:44 PM
They have been accused of this more than once before. And the NFL coach doesn't say OMG I THINK THEY ARE CHEATING. The NFL has officials all over the palce and I think NFL personel made the decision and accusation. I maybe wrong.

being accused more than once doesnt make u a cheater or w.e

we got accused by Bills..they had 0 evidence.

i'll admit that BB is an asshole when the case is done and we find out if he did anything and if anything even happened at all

and for those talking about Brady on injury report. he takes sessions/practices off to rest his arm/shoulder. hes probable..why is it a big deal? u know he'll play unless he gets a new injury. he had shoulder surgery before..his arm gets tired after a lot of throwing and he gets rest and a sleeve/ice patch to rehab.

Caddy
09-10-2007, 07:49 PM
You cannot be punished for doing something unethical.

JK17
09-10-2007, 07:54 PM
being accused more than once doesnt make u a cheater or w.e

we got accused by Bills..they had 0 evidence.

i'll admit that BB is an asshole when the case is done and we find out if he did anything and if anything even happened at all
and for those talking about Brady on injury report. he takes sessions/practices off to rest his arm/shoulder. hes probable..why is it a big deal? u know he'll play unless he gets a new injury. he had shoulder surgery before..his arm gets tired after a lot of throwing and he gets rest and a sleeve/ice patch to rehab.

I am going to hold you too that. And shotty it as my sig quote if you do end up having to admit Bellichek is an asshole.

And as for the injury report, its just a dick move. You don't need to put him as probable, or questionable, if he's really not. It's just common football couresty.

Twiddler
09-10-2007, 08:02 PM
and for those talking about Brady on injury report. he takes sessions/practices off to rest his arm/shoulder. hes probable..why is it a big deal? u know he'll play unless he gets a new injury. he had shoulder surgery before..his arm gets tired after a lot of throwing and he gets rest and a sleeve/ice patch to rehab.

Getting tired is much different than being injured though. In football, people get tired all of the time, and quarterbacks with sore shoulders is always going on. Even though I don't really watch any baseball at all I believe its also pretty much like if you would say that pitchers who are icing their shoulder after throwing a game are injured. And granted, he did have surgery, but he's not the only one.

Jay
09-10-2007, 08:10 PM
You guys act like all your teams have done absolutely nothing for any form of competitive edge haha. It's laughable.

Am I justifying anything the Patriots may have done wrong? Absolutely not. But I am sure this is about par for the course when it comes to the jackassery going on around league circles...

JK17
09-10-2007, 08:12 PM
You guys act like all your teams have done absolutely nothing for any form of competitive edge haha. It's laughable.

Am I justifying anything the Patriots may have done wrong? Absolutely not. But I am sure this is about par for the course when it comes to the jackassery going on around league circles...

Of course. I'm not trying to hide the fact that San Diego may be doing this also, and are doing other things as well. I mean c'mon we have the posterboy for steroids on our roster.

But like everyone on an opposing team says when it comes to stuff like that, no one on our team got caught with it. So while its possible that our teams do things like that also, we haven't been caught/accused of it on multiple occasions.

Jay
09-10-2007, 08:22 PM
That's fine. I agree. It's stupid. I don't even see the benefit. I am under the impression teams change stuff like that all the time, especially considering situations like the Patriots ran into where guys like Reche Caldwell and Mike Elgin were going into the Jets head quarters this week looking for a job. I really don't see the difference, and as a matter of fact, I think the Jets would/should have gained more out of bringing guys in and quizzing them about what's going on with the Pats...

nfrillman
09-10-2007, 09:02 PM
How can you not see a benefit of knowing what the defense is going to do? They wouldn't even have to relay to the offense what the defense was doing. It wouldn't matter if the players knew what the defense was going to do, all the offensive coordinator would have to do is call a play they knew would probably work against that defense. The players would probably just be thinking, "Wow these plays are really working today." I always love the argument that people have when their team gets caught cheating and the response is, "Well everyone else is cheating too." Funny how people don't make that excuse for people using steroids, because that is soooo classless, as opposed to what the Patriots did.

Thecollegedropout
09-10-2007, 09:12 PM
That's fine. I agree. It's stupid. I don't even see the benefit. I am under the impression teams change stuff like that all the time, especially considering situations like the Patriots ran into where guys like Reche Caldwell and Mike Elgin were going into the Jets head quarters this week looking for a job. I really don't see the difference, and as a matter of fact, I think the Jets would/should have gained more out of bringing guys in and quizzing them about what's going on with the Pats...
And you guys brought in Tim Dwight 1-2 days before the game, what the heck is your point?

Jay
09-10-2007, 09:17 PM
How do I not see the advantage? Because I find it very hard to believe that the camera man was able to determine what the call was and then proceed to get it all the way up to someone who would be able to relay that message onto the field of play in a manner in which the entire offensive line will know what is going on. If you can explain how that can happen, you'll deserve a Nobel prize.

On top of that, this is exactly why teams have two guys calling in the plays into the defense, so the other team can't figure out the signals.

On top of THAT, I could sit in the tenth row with a decent camera or a pair of binoculars and figure out the play calls just as much as anyone could with a video camera.

ON TOP OF THAT!!! You're implying the Patriots are able to figure out what ever hand signal means, on the spot, without studying it in any way.

That camera man had ZERO impact on yesterdays game. Anyone trying to fool themselves into thinking otherwise really needs to take a look at the logistics and question their logic...

steelersfan43
09-10-2007, 09:17 PM
What does false injury reports do? How is that cheating?

Jay
09-10-2007, 09:18 PM
And you guys brought in Tim Dwight 1-2 days before the game, what the heck is your point?

Of course. It's called gamesmanship. Oneupsmanship. Everyone does the same ****. You wanted to know my point... well... you just made it...

yodabear
09-10-2007, 09:19 PM
Bill Bellicheck is like the guy from Billy Madison. The evil guy.

P-L
09-10-2007, 09:52 PM
I agree with Jay. Even if the Pats are guilty of this, it had no effect on yesterday's game. There is no conceivable way that someone could interpret the signals quickly enough to get the information on the field fast enough for Brady to explain to his OL what was going on. If they did in fact do this, I'm sure it was "extra preparation" when it comes to their next meeting with the Jets. It makes sense that they could be trying to get a leg up in their next meeting, but I do not believe there is any way this helped them in yesterday's game.

CC.SD
09-10-2007, 10:05 PM
LT: "I think the Patriots live by the saying, 'if you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying."

In a press conference.

JK17
09-11-2007, 04:46 PM
So, about LT's comments on the situation, "The Pats live by the saying if you aint cheating you aint trying", I'll be the first to say he crossed the line on this one. I love LT, respect him, and do think he is very classy, as overplayed as that is when it comes to him. But like Urlacher's comments regarding Merriman, I think this was a mistake and uncalled for.

bsaza2358
09-11-2007, 04:59 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

Looks like the NFL considers the Pats in violation. The might have to surrender "multiple draft picks" as a result. There is also another open inquiry about the Pats use of communications devices. There are allegations that they were listening to the Jets' headsets.

yo123
09-11-2007, 05:03 PM
So, about LT's comments on the situation, "The Pats live by the saying if you aint cheating you aint trying", I'll be the first to say he crossed the line on this one. I love LT, respect him, and do think he is very classy, as overplayed as that is when it comes to him. But like Urlacher's comments regarding Merriman, I think this was a mistake and uncalled for.



Well, if this is true, I think they deserve all the comments like this that they get.

CC.SD
09-11-2007, 05:09 PM
Hey, they're cheating and he called them cheaters. That sounds fine to me.

bsaza2358
09-11-2007, 05:09 PM
We have no real indication whether it is actually true or not, but it does appear that the NFL has evidence to suggest that there was some sort of rules violation.

CC.SD
09-11-2007, 05:13 PM
We have no real indication whether it is actually true or not, but it does appear that the NFL has evidence to suggest that there was some sort of rules violation.

Yah, they have the tape.

bsaza2358
09-11-2007, 05:21 PM
Lots of this involves interpretation. I'll go with the NFL's investigation results, and I'll support whatever punishment they dole out.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 05:36 PM
I agree with Jay. Even if the Pats are guilty of this, it had no effect on yesterday's game. There is no conceivable way that someone could interpret the signals quickly enough to get the information on the field fast enough for Brady to explain to his OL what was going on. If they did in fact do this, I'm sure it was "extra preparation" when it comes to their next meeting with the Jets. It makes sense that they could be trying to get a leg up in their next meeting, but I do not believe there is any way this helped them in yesterday's game.

How difficult would it be to just call the ideal play in response to the info gleaned from the camera? I'm obviously not sure exactly what the Patriots were doing with that information, but it's certainly reasonable to believe that there is a possibility that the Pats used this to their advantage during the game. Radios are live. There is no delay when these coaches speak to each other/Brady. There's no need for Brady to erect a chalkboard at midfield and breakdown exactly what's coming. The coaches just need to be able to quickly decipher at least part of what the defense is doing, and then call a play that puts them at an advantage. The players just need to execute the plays they've practiced hundreds of times.

SuperKevin
09-11-2007, 05:40 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

Goodell has claimed he views this as cheating. He is going to punish the Patriots by Friday. The Patriots could lose "multiple draft picks" or take a huge cap penalty

duckseason
09-11-2007, 05:42 PM
I realize the two sports are unrelated, but this seems a whole hell of a lot shadier than anything Pete Rose ever did.

SuperKevin
09-11-2007, 05:47 PM
Do you consider this to be worse than Tim Donaghey's gambling? That was an outside official changing games while this is an entire organization cheating

duckseason
09-11-2007, 05:51 PM
Do you consider this to be worse than Tim Donaghey's gambling? That was an outside official changing games while this is an entire organization cheating

Well I think they're about equal. We don't/may never know exactly how deep this goes. We don't know how long they've been doing things like this and exactly how much they benefited from it.

BX
09-11-2007, 05:56 PM
So what happens to any draft picks the league takes away from the Patriots?

Are they simply forfeited, as if they'd already spent the pick in a supplemental draft? Or are the picks assigned to other teams?

TitanHope
09-11-2007, 05:57 PM
Where are all the innocent until proven guilty people?

Don't be so naive. There's no such thing as innocent until proven guilty in the public eye. If you're relatively disliked, people will take any shot they can take at you. So the fact that its the Patriots and Bill Bellichik getting trashed shouldn't surprise you. The second PacMan Jones was even linked to a crime, he got called everything from a thug to a baby stabber...well, not baby stabber but you get the point. Even if he was cleared of all charges, people's opinions would stay the same. So even if the Patriots are innocent, which is the opposite of what Goodell has said, people will still maintain the opinion that they're classless and will voice that at any chance given.

Apparently, this is the first proven incident (Second reported. First one was last year by Green Bay, but they had no proof). This had effect on the game, though I still think the Pats win regardless. It doesn't take much analysis to figure out which signal means "Blitz," "Man Coverage," or "Zone," or whatever after a quarter or a half of play. If you give Brady any advantage, he will make you pay. I mean, Randy Moss was triple covered, but ran the perfect route for a TD? After absolutely no playing time during preseason. Kinda fishy. This is probably practiced by many teams, but this is the Pats second reported offense. I think discipline is warranted, especially if the radio frequency accusation is true. If Goodell is 0 tolerence against players, then he should be the same way towards organizations.

I believe the picks are forfeited, BX.

Shiver
09-11-2007, 05:57 PM
This is in no way as bad as Tim Donaghy. Stealing signs is prevalent in all sports and teams try it all the time. This is more akin to contacting an upcoming FA prior to the deadline, it's wrong, but very common.

Smooth Criminal
09-11-2007, 05:59 PM
I think the Patriots could easily have gained an advantage by this. I'm going with duckseason where the offensive players don't actually get to know everything about what the defense is doing, they only have to execute the play that is called that is perfect to beat the defense that they know is going to be called.

And to all the people that say its against the Jets to use next time they play them, what about the same allegations against GB who they wouldn't play again for 4 years, barring a superbowl.

SuperKevin
09-11-2007, 06:00 PM
So what happens to any draft picks the league takes away from the Patriots?

Are they simply forfeited, as if they'd already spent the pick in a supplemental draft? Or are the picks assigned to other teams?

probably just forfieted. I wonder if it involves 1st rounders if they'll get rid of their original pick and the one they get from San Fran?

Mr. Stiller
09-11-2007, 06:00 PM
This is in no way as bad as Tim Donaghy. Stealing signs is prevalent in all sports and teams try it all the time. This is more akin to contacting an upcoming FA prior to the deadline, it's wrong, but very common.

But does it make it any less wrong? Or should those that are caught be less severely punished because it's supposedly widespread?

Should players get weak suspensions for Steroids/Drugs because.. everyone is on Steroids?

The biggest part of any article I thought was this... everyone is focusing on the Camera-guy..

"The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game."
Per ESPN.

If they were getting the exact play calls to Pennington, it wouldn't be that hard for them to know what was coming and frankly thats worse than taking pictures.

BX
09-11-2007, 06:01 PM
Now that I think about, during an NFL Network show early last month, Peyton Manning was talking about hanging out with Belichek at the Pro Bowl, and mentioned that he was a nice guy, even though during the season "they were using cameras to try and catch our signals."

That's paraphrased, but he definitely said something to that effect. Did anyone else catch this?

Mr. Stiller
09-11-2007, 06:02 PM
I think the Patriots could easily have gained an advantage by this. I'm going with duckseason where the offensive players don't actually get to know everything about what the defense is doing, they only have to execute the play that is called that is perfect to beat the defense that they know is going to be called.

And to all the people that say its against the Jets to use next time they play them, what about the same allegations against GB who they wouldn't play again for 4 years, barring a superbowl.

My theory is your going to call the same play in a game quite a few times.

Even if it only gave Belicheck an idea of the coverage, or if a Blitz was coming, thats still an unfair advantage.

They take pictures the first 10 defensive plays, then he looks for the same signals... then signals to the Pats bench the coverage/blitz... thats an unfair advantage.

Mr. Stiller
09-11-2007, 06:05 PM
Now that I think about, during an NFL Network show early last month, Peyton Manning was talking about hanging out with Belichek at the Pro Bowl, and mentioned that he was a nice guy, even though during the season "they were using cameras to try and catch our signals."

That's paraphrased, but he definitely said something to that effect. Did anyone else catch this?

In fact, we're told by a very good source that, when the Packers caught a Pats employee doing the same thing last season, the Packers knew exactly what to look for, and nailed the guy in the act. The Packers didn't press the issue only because they lost the game 35-0, and didn't want to complain under those circumstances.

The Pats' habits in this regard were so well known that, per the same source, Colts president Bill Polian had all on-field cameras removed for the 2006 AFC championship game.

Thus, the Patriots knew that other people know what was happening. And yet they kept on doing it.

If all of this is true, it reflects a dangerous amount of arrogance in that team's coaching staff. In fact, our guess is that, now that the poo has hit the propeller, whoever put this system in place will privately justify it after the fact by explaining that, in the end, the cost was far less than the benefits that have been derived.

And it makes us -- and likely many others -- wonder how far back all of this goes. How many Lombardis are potentially tainted? How many of the games during that record-setting winning streak?

So maybe everyone knew but there wasn't much evidence, or that they didn't catch the guy in the act.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 06:07 PM
This is in no way as bad as Tim Donaghy. Stealing signs is prevalent in all sports and teams try it all the time. This is more akin to contacting an upcoming FA prior to the deadline, it's wrong, but very common.

Not in my book. Cheating is cheating and if this is true, it has a butterfly effect across the entire league and nothing that has happened since they started doing this is accurate. We don't yet know if other teams have done this, but if so, I may just quit being a fan. I actually may think it's worse than what Donaghy did, because it directly benefited one team. He seemed to move a few points here and there to cover the line one way or the other. Which is horrendous, but was likely indiscriminate as to which teams it affected. "Very common?" If so, the NFL just lost a viewer. If this goes as deep as it appears, I would expect nothing less than a banning from the league of all coaches/team employees who were involved or aware.

TimD
09-11-2007, 06:09 PM
Here's something from SI last year:

The "stealing'' of signs -- both on offense and defense -- is the area that's most often cited as fertile ground for cheating. The most common practice is for a team to videotape an opponent's signal-givers on the sideline, and later marry up those indications to the game tape in order to identify tendencies or patterns.

Though no disciplinary action by the league ever resulted, the Patriots last year were reportedly the impetus of a sternly written letter from the league office to all teams, reminding them that it was illegal for an advance scout or personnel official to bring a video recording device of any kind into the press box for the purposes of taping a potential opponent's signals or play-calling gestures from the sideline.

Teams have also been chastised for having a second camera in the press box-area video box, with one camera shooting the game action and the other one being trained on the opposing team's signal-givers. On offense, that's why coaches have taken to holding their play-calling charts in front of their mouths when they're sending in the play to the quarterback via the radio headset system.

On defense, teams have gone to having two different signal callers, with one being a dummy signaler and other being responsible for the "hot,'' or real, call. Other teams use different color wrist bands during a game, with the defensive captain switching to a different color before each series, and the defensive signal-caller calling formations and blitzes from a list that corresponds with that color.

"That type of sign-stealing goes on a ton in the league,'' said one NFL source who was both a former coach and player in the league. "From a coaching standpoint, you know who's signaling in the personnel on the opposing sideline, and then there's another guy making the play calls on the headset. Defenses used to watch the play-caller, and if a guy spoke for a real long time, that was usually a pass, because the calls take longer. A run is always a shorter call. So coaches shield their mouths when they're calling plays now. If you make your calls out in the open, the other team will steal your signals and your tendencies.''

Don Banks, I think.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 06:12 PM
This just makes me sick. I'm disgusted. Maybe they should just start writing a script like they do in pro wrestling.

Windy
09-11-2007, 06:14 PM
and they say cheaters never win :/

SuperKevin
09-11-2007, 06:18 PM
This just makes me sick. I'm disgusted. Maybe they should just start writing a script like they do in pro wrestling.

This is why I make sure i do all of my weekend errands on Sunday. I'd much rather keep Saturday open and watch college games

duckseason
09-11-2007, 06:18 PM
Next story we'll see is how Dan Snyder or Jerry Jones is installing a satellite in space featuring 31 state of the art cameras.

SuperKevin
09-11-2007, 06:21 PM
i think the only thing that would be worse than this would be if the Patriots actually had someone on the Jets sideline

Mr. Stiller
09-11-2007, 06:23 PM
i think the only thing that would be worse than this would be if the Patriots actually had someone on the Jets sideline

The investigation isn't completely over yet.

SFbear
09-11-2007, 06:32 PM
i think the only thing that would be worse than this would be if the Patriots actually had someone on the Jets sideline

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2006/11/19/mangini.jpg

DUM DUM DUMMM!!!!!!!

CC.SD
09-11-2007, 06:40 PM
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2006/11/19/mangini.jpg

DUM DUM DUMMM!!!!!!!

That's pretty hilarious.

Mr. Stiller
09-11-2007, 06:42 PM
That's pretty hilarious.

It would be pretty entertaining if Belicheck pushed Mangini and Crennel to take AFC Jobs so when they play him they lose.. thats 2 games a year and 1 per year that the browns face the Pats.

Jay
09-11-2007, 06:44 PM
How difficult would it be to just call the ideal play in response to the info gleaned from the camera? I'm obviously not sure exactly what the Patriots were doing with that information, but it's certainly reasonable to believe that there is a possibility that the Pats used this to their advantage during the game. Radios are live. There is no delay when these coaches speak to each other/Brady. There's no need for Brady to erect a chalkboard at midfield and breakdown exactly what's coming. The coaches just need to be able to quickly decipher at least part of what the defense is doing, and then call a play that puts them at an advantage. The players just need to execute the plays they've practiced hundreds of times.

And you're telling me this can be done consistently, over and over, over the course of an entire game, in under 24 seconds, and that Brady can relay the message he's getting after they break the huddle. Including when they call defensive audibles. Give me a break.

And comparing this to a referee shaving points from games is by far and away the dumbest thing I have ever heard on this message board. Congratulations, you win the prize for completely over-analysis and over-reaction of the year!

duckseason
09-11-2007, 06:58 PM
And you're telling me this can be done consistently, over and over, over the course of an entire game, in under 24 seconds, and that Brady can relay the message he's getting after they break the huddle. Including when they call defensive audibles. Give me a break.

And comparing this to a referee shaving points from games is by far and away the dumbest thing I have ever heard on this message board. Congratulations, you win the prize for completely over-analysis and over-reaction of the year!

Oh-k. Who's really overreacting here? Never claimed to know exactly what the Pats did with the info. Just that it's reasonable to assume that they directly benefited during the game. These guys aren't idiots, are they? I know I'd definitely be competent enough to take full advantage. Never said they did it consistently throughout the game, just that it's certainly within the realm of possibility. Fact is, all it takes is the occasional knowledge of blitz location and the complexion of the game is completely altered and the cheating team has a distinct advantage which can very likely result in victory. You really believe that shaving points is any different than putting them up through cheating?

fenikz
09-11-2007, 06:58 PM
All NFL players that i have seen interviewed have said it wasn't a big deal and basically if your not cheating your not trying

Staubach12
09-11-2007, 06:59 PM
Adam Schefter reported on it, and it certainly sounded to me as if there's definately going to be some repercussions for the Pats. One intruiging thing he mentioned was the possible loss of draft picks, along with some other possible punishments (including possibly suspending some coaches for several games). So, it sounded like there's definately some kind of rule about this. I could easily see Goodell to take some action on this. Schefter also said that Bill Belichick swill be (or possibly already has been) summoned to see Goodell about this in New York.

Jay
09-11-2007, 07:04 PM
Oh-k. Who's really overreacting here? Never claimed to know exactly what the Pats did with the info. Just that it's reasonable to assume that they directly benefited during the game. These guys aren't idiots, are they? I know I'd definitely be competent enough to take full advantage. Never said they did it consistently throughout the game, just that it's certainly within the realm of possibility. Fact is, all it takes is the occasional knowledge of blitz location and the complexion of the game is completely altered and the cheating team has a distinct advantage which can very likely result in victory. You really believe that shaving points is any different than putting them up through cheating?

Hahahahahahha... yeah... I do... there's a huge ******* difference....

This is so dumb I am not even going to give it the time of day...

The Great Jonathan Vilma
09-11-2007, 07:07 PM
if a bit late, i didn't know this thread was about this....but to say the least i'm a little pissed. i think its mostly because they were playing the Jets, but i don't think there is any place for this in the game. if u can see the signals thats fine, but once u start having people not on the sidelines and using cameras etc. thats not part of the game and is cheating in my books. If u can see the calls from the other sidelines, or if ur players can read the calls, good for them, but involving technology, spying, and radio frequencies is just pathetic.

I say bring the hammer down on this 'class' organization. please, someone tell me what over the past 3-4 years has given them this 'class' reputation, because nothing i see claims this. I wouldn't put this into the Ref scandal of the NBA, but at least the opposite team wasn't the one paying the refs making it a middleman, rather than one side cheating and the other just innocent. not sure if that came out right, but the point is there.

i expect fines and draft picks. ideally i'd want the win, but hey, u can't have it all.......

duckseason
09-11-2007, 07:10 PM
Hahahahahahha... yeah... I do... there's a huge ******* difference....

This is so dumb I am not even going to give it the time of day...

Right. You can't even explain your stance. Yet my post looks dumb in comparison, right? Care to go into detail about what exactly you perceive to be the "huge ******* difference" between an official altering the score of a game through cheating and an organization doing the same thing?

Zim3031
09-11-2007, 07:10 PM
Wow, I can't believe that I'm just hearing about this now.

If (A huge if at that) this is true and the pats actually are stealing signals/play calls, this is much more than just a small advantage. Scheme vs. scheme plays a major role in every football game. Everyone knows that. The blocking scheme vs. the blitzing scheme. The receivers routes vs. the coverage. The offense's running lanes vs. the defense closing the gaps etc. If one sideline is actually able to know what the opposition is planning then they could easily find ways to exploit the other side and come up with huge plays when they need it. blitzes are much easier to pick up when you know where they're coming from and who's doing it. Your coverages are much more easily blown when the receiver knows what you're covering.

Of course, I'm still of the sad belief that the patriots will forfeit and my Jets will be 1-0 going into Baltimore :D

VY10
09-11-2007, 07:14 PM
Makes me wonder how good Tom Brady really is.....

CC.SD
09-11-2007, 07:19 PM
Makes me wonder how good Tom Brady really is.....

Makes ME wonder what this does to BB's HOF "lock."




*?

The Great Jonathan Vilma
09-11-2007, 07:20 PM
Of course, I'm still of the sad belief that the patriots will forfeit and my Jets will be 1-0 going into Baltimore :D

wouldn't that be sweet justice. not many things i'd want more than beating BB and him getting busted against the Jets. damn that would make me feel good!!

locseti
09-11-2007, 07:38 PM
Give me a break Hoodie, you're a HOF coach with a squad full of studs, why do you need to steal signals?

duckseason
09-11-2007, 07:39 PM
Yeah, from what I've seen so far, Schlereth appears to be one of the few who knows and doesn't minimize how big of an advantage this practice would give a team. I'm surprised there's not more of an uproar right now.

skinzzfan25
09-11-2007, 07:44 PM
If they do loose draft picks, where do they go? Or say they loose a 1st rounder, would it be out of 31?

Don Vito
09-11-2007, 07:45 PM
This isn't good, but I doubt Ellis Hobbs burning the entire Jets kickoff team for a 108 yard TD, Randy Moss catching a 50 yard TD in triple coverage, or poor tackling/coverage on Welker and Watson's TD's had much to do with stealing signals.

What the Pats did was wrong and may deserve punishment, but forfeiting the game is ridiculous. Anyone who watched that game knows the Pats outplayed the Jets.

yo123
09-11-2007, 07:46 PM
Make them forfeit the Jets game AND suspend Belichek for next week's game. I dont think people are getting how big of a deal this is.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 07:47 PM
Give me a break Hoodie, you're a HOF coach with a squad full of studs, why do you need to steal signals?

IMO, Belichick now has a whole lot to prove before I consider him HOF worthy. Whether or not this goes that deep, he just opened up his entire career as a HC to speculation of whether or not all the accolades were deserved. That's what's sad about this whole thing. Cheaters cheat everybody, including themselves. We may never know just how great this dynasty really was. Were they really the "ultimate team," or were they just always a false step ahead of their opponents?

remix 6
09-11-2007, 07:49 PM
first of all. let me say
-the game outcome has nothing to do with the stealing signals because its video taped. so its future reference if anything

and second of all, read the article saying that an ex-cameraman/ex coach said cheating is done by just about everyone, including Jets. he was sent to do it at times as a caoch, and it happens a lot. also Lincoln Kennedy said stealing happens more often than not.

yo123
09-11-2007, 07:52 PM
first of all. let me say
-the game outcome has nothing to do with the stealing signals because its video taped. so its future reference if anything

and second of all, read the article saying that an ex-cameraman/ex coach said cheating is done by just about everyone, including Jets. he was sent to do it at times as a caoch, and it happens a lot. also Lincoln Kennedy said stealing happens more often than not.



I honestly could care less if it happens a lot, they got caught, they should pay for it, and the NFL should crack down on this. And how can you say the game outcome has nothing to do with stealing signals? You dont think it helps to know what the other team is going to do?

duckseason
09-11-2007, 07:52 PM
first of all. let me say
-the game outcome has nothing to do with the stealing signals because its video taped. so its future reference if anything

and second of all, read the article saying that an ex-cameraman/ex coach said cheating is done by just about everyone, including Jets. he was sent to do it at times as a caoch, and it happens a lot. also Lincoln Kennedy said stealing happens more often than not.

So in other words, the entire NFL is just a big sham? I mean, if that's the case, then make it a part of the game. Teams can draft cameramen and coaches can in turn sit inside tinted bubbles on the sideline. See who's the best at cheating rather than fraudulently passing these games off as legitimate.

neko4
09-11-2007, 07:55 PM
for some odd reason i dont care

diabsoule
09-11-2007, 07:55 PM
After hearing that Goodell has found the Patriots guilty I became disgusted with that whole organization.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 08:00 PM
I no longer want my Cowboys to use our top pick on a top prospect. I want us to go out and find the best audio tech in the land. All our scouting efforts should be concentrated on finding the next sound wizard. Once that glaring need is secured, we can use our other 1st rounder on either an expert hand-signal decoder, or maybe even trade it for cash to help fund our space satellite.

slightlyaraiderfan
09-11-2007, 08:02 PM
first of all. let me say
-the game outcome has nothing to do with the stealing signals because its video taped. so its future reference if anything

and second of all, read the article saying that an ex-cameraman/ex coach said cheating is done by just about everyone, including Jets. he was sent to do it at times as a caoch, and it happens a lot. also Lincoln Kennedy said stealing happens more often than not.
Yeah, no biggie...just the possibility of losing a couple draft picks, that's all.

Jay
09-11-2007, 08:05 PM
Right. You can't even explain your stance. Yet my post looks dumb in comparison, right? Care to go into detail about what exactly you perceive to be the "huge ******* difference" between an official altering the score of a game through cheating and an organization doing the same thing?

Why don't you just compare the Patriots to Michael Vick too? I really don't think it needs an explanation Corky. Figure it out on your own.

On top of that:

DAVIE, Fla. — Nick Saban never will be confused with Rodney Dangerfield, but the Miami Dolphins coach did kick off his Wednesday press conference with a pretty good zinger:

"I'm a little late today because I was watching TV tape," Saban deadpanned.

It's the story that won't go away.

Wednesday, when talk usually would center on the Dolphins' upcoming opponent — the Buffalo Bills, in this case — the subject of Audio-gate was still hot in the locker room.

Not a popular topic, just a hot one.

ESPN talk-show host Colin Cowherd had dedicated a portion of his program — and even took phone calls — about a report in the Palm Beach Post saying the Dolphins had purchased audio tapes of New England games. The story said they then used those tapes to pick up quarterback Tom Brady's cadence and audible calls, so they could scheme their blitz packages around his protection calls and pick up his audibles.

The Dolphins won the game 21-0, sacking Brady four times and holding him to just 78 yards passing.

BELICHICK SUMMONED TO NEW YORK?

WVCB in Boston reports that Pats coach Bill Belichick has been summoned to New York by Commissioner Roger Goodell to answer questions regarding allegations that the Patriots were stealing defensive signals on Sunday against the Jets.

WEEI in Boston reports that the Patriots deny the WVCB report.

Either way, this issue is generating all sorts of buzz in league and media circles. Though it could be driven by the perception that the Patriots are the top organization in the league and the other 31 franchises would love to seem them take a fall, there's just too much smoke on this one to disregard it.

Still, we doubt that the Pats are the only team stealing signals, if the final decision is that they are or have been. Multiple readers have told us that the Eagles were taking great pains to shield their own defensive signals from prying eyes against the Packers, which suggests that this could be a fairly common thing.


Would you look at what two minutes on the intergoogle can bring up?

duckseason
09-11-2007, 08:09 PM
Why don't you just compare the Patriots to Michael Vick too? I really don't think it needs an explanation Corky. Figure it out on your own.

Yeah, keep up the name calling. Real mature. Sadly, those quotes fail to explain the "huge ******* difference" between shaving points and gaining them through illegitimate means. Perhaps you could speak for yourself next time?

Jay
09-11-2007, 08:12 PM
Because that was the obvious intention smarty pants...

duckseason
09-11-2007, 08:17 PM
Because that was the obvious intention smarty pants...
K, well I guess I'll take this halfass response as an admission that there is little to no difference as far as ethics and fairness go. And that the only reason you've chosen to minimize these happenings is because it's your favorite team that's being implicated.

Jay
09-11-2007, 08:20 PM
I've already said they're wrong for doing it. What part of that doesn't compute?

yo123
09-11-2007, 08:21 PM
K, well I guess I'll take this halfass response as an admission that there is little to no difference as far as ethics and fairness go. And that the only reason you've chosen to minimize these happenings is because it's your favorite team that's being implicated.



Yeah, so if this was the Jaguars, lets say, would you still be backing them up for totally disregarding the integrity of the game? Its not because its the Patriots is it?

yo123
09-11-2007, 08:22 PM
This isn't good, but I doubt Ellis Hobbs burning the entire Jets kickoff team for a 108 yard TD, Randy Moss catching a 50 yard TD in triple coverage, or poor tackling/coverage on Welker and Watson's TD's had much to do with stealing signals.

What the Pats did was wrong and may deserve punishment, but forfeiting the game is ridiculous. Anyone who watched that game knows the Pats outplayed the Jets.



to me, its irrelevant whether or not they would have won, its obvious they would have, but they cheated, and its not the first time they have done it. The game should be forfeited.

Don Vito
09-11-2007, 08:26 PM
But if the outcome of the game wouldn'y have been effected then why change the outcome of the game. To me forfeiting the game isn't the correct penalty.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 08:28 PM
I've already said they're wrong for doing it. What part of that doesn't compute?
Pretty much this part-

Hahahahahahha... yeah... I do... there's a huge ******* difference....

This is so dumb I am not even going to give it the time of day...
I was just waiting for you to explain the apparent "huge ******* difference" you spoke so eloquently of.

...And the fact that you're minimizing the potential effects of the whole thing for no apparent reason other than to blindly defend your team. Oh, and I saw no reason for you to misrepresent my earlier post and mock me for simply stating a levelheaded point of view based in reality.

yo123
09-11-2007, 08:28 PM
But if the outcome of the game wouldn'y have been effected then why change the outcome of the game. To me forfeiting the game isn't the correct penalty.



You have to make the penalty hurt, so they dont do it again. Is a fine going to do that? Not a chance. A draft pick maybe, but if they do that it needs to be a 1st or 2nd round pick. I still like the idea of suspending Belicheck.

JK17
09-11-2007, 08:35 PM
I've already said they're wrong for doing it. What part of that doesn't compute?

Have fun with this one...I've said Shawne Merriman was wrong for getting caught with nandralone....but that one sure hasn't gone away like that...

The bottom line is, despite how many other teams are "speculated" to be having done this, Goodell and the NFL hasn't taken action against anyone else. Which means either the other teams are a lot slyer then the Patriots, which I doubt, they haven't found enough evidence yet, which is posisble, or they aren't doing it, which is the only answer we can actaully conclude based on hard evidence.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 08:36 PM
Oh, and I feel obligated to remind you as it seems to have slipped your mind, jay.
I'm made of rubber.
You're made of glue.

JK17
09-11-2007, 08:37 PM
Oh and....

being accused more than once doesnt make u a cheater or w.e

we got accused by Bills..they had 0 evidence.

i'll admit that BB is an asshole when the case is done and we find out if he did anything and if anything even happened at all


I am going to hold you too that. And shotty it as my sig quote if you do end up having to admit Bellichek is an asshole.

remix 6
09-11-2007, 08:45 PM
Oh and....

sorry. not this time. its a league wide issue and it was said by multi sources and it seems common. BB isnt doing anything other teams arent. i remember specifically the Dolphins admitting something to it(Thomas did i think). hearing about Eagles-Packers..hearing the ex coach/cameraman. tomlin said its not surpising in NFL

if BB is an asshole, i guess every team is but i'll wait to see if any other teams get cracked for it or the consequences.

every team does it..multi complaints have been filed. nothing came of it until now.

Jay
09-11-2007, 08:53 PM
Pretty much this part-


I was just waiting for you to explain the apparent "huge ******* difference" you spoke so eloquently of.

...And the fact that you're minimizing the potential effects of the whole thing for no apparent reason other than to blindly defend your team. Oh, and I saw no reason for you to misrepresent my earlier post and mock me for simply stating a levelheaded point of view based in reality.

Levelheaded?!?! Hahahaha. Just do me one simple favor. Go learn some reading comprehension and get back to me. Because I very, very clearly was NOT talking about the Patriots being right or wrong in that quote, just the pure stupidity surrounding comparing a NBA Referee with a team that may or may not have gained any form of advantage from knowing another teams signs... which them could have figured out 15 other ways aside from the one they were busted for.

LADIES AND... WELL... LADIES! WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A NEW INVENTION! It's called "reverse point shaving!" You know, running up the score!!

I seriously feel dumber for actually having to give that notion even the slightest amount of dignity. Christ. I'm going to go do something more productive like sniff glue. Maybe that will bring some of the brain cells I just lost back to life...

ShutDwn
09-11-2007, 08:55 PM
sorry. not this time. its a league wide issue and it was said by multi sources and it seems common. BB isnt doing anything other teams arent. i remember specifically the Dolphins admitting something to it(Thomas did i think). hearing about Eagles-Packers..hearing the ex coach/cameraman. tomlin said its not surpising in NFL

if BB is an asshole, i guess every team is but i'll wait to see if any other teams get cracked for it or the consequences.

every team does it..multi complaints have been filed. nothing came of it until now.

I don't think every team uses a video camera. Sure, teams try and spy, but video taping is a new low.

remix 6
09-11-2007, 08:57 PM
I don't think every team uses a video camera. Sure, teams try and spy, but video taping is a new low.

video taping, sketching, personally watching and memorizing. same deal

ex cameraman/ coach said he was sent in the past to do that and he said it happens with every team

Tomlin
"You hear rumors of things of that nature. It's nothing new. In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instance to my knowledge

A former Patriots video coordinator e-mailed to say what happened during the Jets game was incredibly common and not a big deal. To wit:

“I read your article with amusement about the Patriots camerman being nabbed at NY. Having worked in the NFL as a video coordinator with both the Pats and the Carolina Panthers, I can tell you this happens all the time. I was often asked by coaches to film opponents, usually during pregame warmups. I find it hard to believe that the Pats would be so brazen with it. We often had cameras hooked up to monitors that the coaches would watch in the booth. I never actually recorded anything, so as not to leave evidence! And I can guarantee you the Jets and everybody else are doing it too.”

duckseason
09-11-2007, 08:58 PM
Levelheaded?!?! Hahahaha. Just do me one simple favor. Go learn some reading comprehension and get back to me. Because I very, very clearly was NOT talking about the Patriots being right or wrong in that quote, just the pure stupidity surrounding comparing a NBA Referee with a team that may or may not have gained any form of advantage from knowing another teams signs... which them could have figured out 15 other ways aside from the one they were busted for.

LADIES AND... WELL... LADIES! WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A NEW INVENTION! It's called "reverse point shaving!" You know, running up the score!!

I seriously feel dumber for actually having to give that notion even the slightest amount of dignity. Christ. I'm going to go do something more productive like sniff glue. Maybe that will bring some of the brain cells I just lost back to life...
Well I think my reading comprehension is at least up to par. I fully understand everything you've posted in this thread. However, judging by the above post and those prior, you've completely misunderstood what I've been saying.

Jay
09-11-2007, 09:09 PM
What is there to misinterpret about you comparing this to a referee shaving points from a game? I mean, why not just compare it to Michael Vick killing dogs too? Or maybe Lance Briggs wrapping cars around telephone polls. Or maybe Travis Henry being the poster-child for birth control and Trojan commercials? I mean, they all share about the same relevance to the situation at hand...

steelernation77
09-11-2007, 09:12 PM
sorry. not this time. its a league wide issue and it was said by multi sources and it seems common. BB isnt doing anything other teams arent. i remember specifically the Dolphins admitting something to it(Thomas did i think). hearing about Eagles-Packers..hearing the ex coach/cameraman. tomlin said its not surpising in NFL

if BB is an asshole, i guess every team is but i'll wait to see if any other teams get cracked for it or the consequences.

every team does it..multi complaints have been filed. nothing came of it until now.

Players also hold on pretty much every play in the NFL. However, if you get caught holding, you're flagged for it. Even if it is as pervasive in the league as you suggest it is (although it does seem like most of the previous rumors involved the Patriots), they should be punished accordingly. It's cheating, they've been warned about it previously, and yet they continued to do it.

Jay
09-11-2007, 09:19 PM
And they should get a pretty heavy fine for it.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 09:28 PM
What is there to misinterpret about you comparing this to a referee shaving points from a game? I mean, why not just compare it to Michael Vick killing dogs too? Or maybe Lance Briggs wrapping cars around telephone polls. Or maybe Travis Henry being the poster-child for birth control and Trojan commercials? I mean, they all share about the same relevance to the situation at hand...

Sure they do. That is, if you omit the part about intentionally altering the score of a game through means of cheating, then I agree.

And that's really not what I was referring to in my previous post. I was just pointing out that your responses don't appear to match my posts at all. You may as well not even quote me, as it appears as though you didn't even read what you quoted when you do.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
09-11-2007, 09:37 PM
remix, u've lost ur mind if u think this is acceptable. i don't care if NE is ur team, its unacceptable and shouldn't be in the sport. NE was the team caught (more than once) and they have to pay the piper. stop trying to make excuses for a cheat that was done........

bored of education
09-11-2007, 09:44 PM
A. they F=ed up
B. alot of teams do it
c. no one is single out the pats
d. they got caught
e. harrison ahem
f. 2 picks gone please
g. bill P from the Colts being on the competition committee has nothing to do with it


kthanxbye

SuperKevin
09-11-2007, 09:48 PM
if they lose draft picks it better be something more severe than losing late day 2 picks. An example has to be made to the rest of the league that this is serious or else it will continue happening

bored of education
09-11-2007, 09:49 PM
im guessing 2nd and 5th

yo123
09-11-2007, 10:03 PM
remix, i dont care if other teams do it, when New England gets punished like they should, im sure a lot of teams will think twice before spying again. This is just like saying since Barry Bonds took steroids its ok, because so did Jay Gibbons.

remix 6
09-11-2007, 10:08 PM
remix, u've lost ur mind if u think this is acceptable. i don't care if NE is ur team, its unacceptable and shouldn't be in the sport. NE was the team caught (more than once) and they have to pay the piper. stop trying to make excuses for a cheat that was done........

its not acceptable. but it goes to the whole league. NE wasnt caught more than once. we got reported before but bills had no evidence..neither did Texans or w.e

im sure other teams did it plenty of times. the problem

Patriots caught: once
Rest of league caught: zero

other teams will eventually get caught with this whole scandal now.

not right for anyone to do it and its unfair if u say "Patriots cheat/cheated"

itd be better saying "Most of league cheats/cheated"

remix, i dont care if other teams do it, when New England gets punished like they should, im sure a lot of teams will think twice before spying again. This is just like saying since Barry Bonds took steroids its ok, because so did Jay Gibbons.

im not saying cuz others do it its fine for us. im just noting that just about every team does it so its not new and just like the steroid issue, once 1 fish is caught, many follow.

so i expect league to find a few more teams in next 1-2 months with similar issue since this opened a new problem in the NFL.

BroadwayJoe10
09-11-2007, 10:08 PM
lots of things to say, ok where to begin. Obviously im a jets fan and i think what happened was bush league; but all this "just sounds like a bunch of whiney jets fans complaining," wouldn't be reason enough for the comish to punish the team, which he said he is going to do. He said he already gave a stern warning to all teams regarding this rule, and because the pats are at the top of the list of suspicions they will be punished.
I watched every minute of the game and just figured the pats outplayed the jets, which they did. They are capable of doing this to our team as well as any team in the league even without cheating. Now ya gotta assume part wasn't in the hands of the jets players; now this may or may not be true but you just don't know anymore. Secondly, to all the people that are so ignorantly thinking 'well this camera man couldn't have any type of possible outcome, becuase he wouldn't be able to know which of the two hand signals came from where blah blah or see it and recognize it and then realize it in time to tell the team,' just for one second think outside the bubble and stop trying to defend your team or maybe u just dont see it. Every single play each team does and is allowed to take a polaroid of the play before and after; if for the first 20 plays or for the first half (which was very close in score) and just analyze the data you can come up with a lot. Say you see these two hand signals used and you know the defense is going to blllitz from the left side, well after 20 plays you can distinguish between what side is going to blitz, all you then have to do is have someone tell the camera man when he sees the signal yell out blitz left, the OC then throws in a route that has a TE or reciever roll out to the right side and bam he has one on one coverage. And all of this was done in a matter of seconds. Yes, maybe for the first 10 15 plays maybe even the first half he could have been useless, but you obviously see how they have the advantage as the game goes on. Like Mark Schlereth said, you still have to execute the plays, but if your an offensive lineman and even if you are facing a stud DE who is going to take a hard route inside and you know this before you even get to the line, your job becomes immensely easier. All im saying is that it's illegal to have cameras in the coaching booth and sidelines for a reason, and should be punished as such. IF there weren't any type of advantages you could get out of it (which if you dont understand by what i've typed, you clearly need to increase your knowledge of football) than it wouldn't be illegal. Ya, maybe other teams are donig it but they havn't been caught, more than once mind you, and aren't being investigated for it. Plus, as a superbowl team with a genius of a head coach and one of the best QB's in the league you are going to be held by a higher standard, right or wrong.

Twiddler
09-11-2007, 10:10 PM
Levelheaded?!?! Hahahaha. Just do me one simple favor. Go learn some reading comprehension and get back to me. Because I very, very clearly was NOT talking about the Patriots being right or wrong in that quote, just the pure stupidity surrounding comparing a NBA Referee with a team that may or may not have gained any form of advantage from knowing another teams signs... which them could have figured out 15 other ways aside from the one they were busted for.

LADIES AND... WELL... LADIES! WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A NEW INVENTION! It's called "reverse point shaving!" You know, running up the score!!

I seriously feel dumber for actually having to give that notion even the slightest amount of dignity. Christ. I'm going to go do something more productive like sniff glue. Maybe that will bring some of the brain cells I just lost back to life...

All I have to say is maybe if you would act with the slightest bit of maturity in your responses maybe some people would actually care about what you say. But what do I know...

yo123
09-11-2007, 10:17 PM
Levelheaded?!?! Hahahaha. Just do me one simple favor. Go learn some reading comprehension and get back to me. Because I very, very clearly was NOT talking about the Patriots being right or wrong in that quote, just the pure stupidity surrounding comparing a NBA Referee with a team that may or may not have gained any form of advantage from knowing another teams signs... which them could have figured out 15 other ways aside from the one they were busted for.

LADIES AND... WELL... LADIES! WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A NEW INVENTION! It's called "reverse point shaving!" You know, running up the score!!

I seriously feel dumber for actually having to give that notion even the slightest amount of dignity. Christ. I'm going to go do something more productive like sniff glue. Maybe that will bring some of the brain cells I just lost back to life...



I understand that you are on a completely different intelligence level than all of us, but I'm going to try to give my short opinion on this entire story. I might need to take a few breaks in between though as I may have trouble concentrating on one thing for more than 10 minutes due to the severe intelligence gap that is between me and you...you and I... whatever.

1. Your Pats cheated.
2. They got caught.
3. Its not the first time.
4. It has a HUGE impact on the game. I dont understand how anybody can think knowing what the opposing team is going to do ahead of time doesnt make a difference. I've yet to hear any argument on this.
5. They need to be punished. More than a fine, and more than a 2nd day pick.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 10:20 PM
its not acceptable. but it goes to the whole league. NE wasnt caught more than once. we got reported before but bills had no evidence..neither did Texans or w.e

im sure other teams did it plenty of times. the problem

Patriots caught: once
Rest of league caught: zero

other teams will eventually get caught with this whole scandal now.

not right for anyone to do it and its unfair if u say "Patriots cheat/cheated"

itd be better saying "Most of league cheats/cheated"



im not saying cuz others do it its fine for us. im just noting that just about every team does it so its not new and just like the steroid issue, once 1 fish is caught, many follow.

so i expect league to find a few more teams in next 1-2 months with similar issue since this opened a new problem in the NFL.
I must've missed the part where it's been proven that any other team was involved in this level of cheating. Can you please provide a link? Until the NFL confiscates evidence from other teams that in turn proves to be proof of cheating, the Pat's are driving this car and they're not permitted in the carpool lane. We can speculate all we want, and I certainly have strong suspicions too, but as of right now, the New England Patriots have soiled themselves and they're the only organization in need of baby wipes.

steelernation77
09-11-2007, 10:22 PM
Write these off if you want, however they are interesting in light of recent events. I'm sure that some of the them are easy to explain away and some may be taken out of context but they're interesting. These were posted by someone on a Steeler message board I frequent

1) 2001 championship game. Hines ward and Burress complain after the game that the Patriots were calling out their plays during the game.

2) 2004 championship game on a 4th and 1. The Steelers begin to huddle and Belichick ushers over LB Teddy Bruschi
and whispers something in his ear. Bruschi whispers something to the other players after he runs back onto the field.
Bruschi then stuffs bettis on the 4th and one. After the game Bruschi was asked what did Belichick whisper to him and he replies , "the guy just knows everything, he saw something and I can't talk about it."

3) after 2004 win in championship game, Brady was asked how he figured out the steelers defense. Brady said " when you know the answers to the test, its easy."

4) Belichick has never lost to a QB twice in the same season. Remember that stat? Sure , after he loses the first time, he studies their signals after video taping the coach and knows what defenses to call the 2nd time around.

Take it for what it is. I definitely remember the first one, I just attributed it to good game planning at the time but everyone loves a good conspiracy, and if this links it back to 2001...

JK17
09-11-2007, 10:24 PM
sorry. not this time. its a league wide issue and it was said by multi sources and it seems common. BB isnt doing anything other teams arent. i remember specifically the Dolphins admitting something to it(Thomas did i think). hearing about Eagles-Packers..hearing the ex coach/cameraman. tomlin said its not surpising in NFL

if BB is an asshole, i guess every team is but i'll wait to see if any other teams get cracked for it or the consequences.

every team does it..multi complaints have been filed. nothing came of it until now.

Wait a minute....I've heard rumors about other players using steroids, but Merriman is the only one who got caught, does that mean we can assume other players are doing it to. I mean many NFL players have come out and said much of the leauge is on HGH, can we use that as evidence also, because if so, I don't want to hear anything about Merriman. Because thats all your doing in your defense, is saying rumors that other people, former Patriots employees, have said.

I mean, I can make all kinds of parallels here...

If Merriman got caught he's probably been doing it his whole career=If the Pats got caught they've probably been doing it their whole period of dominance (Illegitimate Super Bowl Trophies=Illegitimate Pro Bowl Inclusion)


No, if I have to deal with people saying how Merriman is a cheater, even though probably most of the other league is doing it, you have to admit Bill Bellichek is an asshole, like you said you would if he was caught cheating. The Patriots cheated, even if most of the other league is doing it. You said you'd admit BB is an asshole if we found he did anything. And he did.

yo123
09-11-2007, 10:25 PM
Wait a minute....I've heard rumors about other players using steroids, but Merriman is the only one who got caught, does that mean we can assume other players are doing it to. I mean many NFL players have come out and said much of the leauge is on HGH, can we use that as evidence also, because if so, I don't want to hear anything about Merriman. Because thats all your doing in your defense, is saying rumors that other people, former Patriots employees, have said.

I mean, I can make all kinds of parallels here...

If Merriman got caught he's probably been doing it his whole career=If the Pats got caught they've probably been doing it their whole period of dominance (Illegitimate Super Bowl Trophies=Illegitimate Pro Bowl Inclusion)


No, if I have to deal with people saying how Merriman is a cheater, even though probably most of the other league is doing it, you have to admit Bill Bellichek is an asshole, like you said you would if he was caught cheating. The Patriots cheated, even if most of the other league is doing it. You said you'd admit BB is an asshole if we found he did anything. And he did.



Yeah man up remix. Belicheat is an asshole. Admit it.

adschofield
09-11-2007, 10:30 PM
Knowing Goddell, the punishment will be as followed:
Belichick-Burned at the stake

Burn him, Goddell!!!!!! Burn him!!!!!!











j/k

Dam8610
09-11-2007, 10:31 PM
I hope Goodell swings the hammer just as hard on the Patriots as he has been on the players thus far. Which would mean no Day 1 for the Patriots in the 2008 NFL Draft.

yo123
09-11-2007, 10:33 PM
I hope Goodell swings the hammer just as hard on the Patriots as he has been on the players thus far. Which would mean no Day 1 for the Patriots in the 2008 NFL Draft.



yeah, if odell thurman gets 2 years suspension for doing drugs, the Pats better get hit pretty hard.

duckseason
09-11-2007, 10:36 PM
Knowing Goddell, the punishment will be as followed:
Belichick-Burned at the stake

Burn him, Goddell!!!!!! Burn him!!!!!!j/k
Yeah, I kinda doubt it will be as heavy as it probably should be. I guess it depends on his estimation of which route will damage the league the least. I'd imagine they will try to minimize it and say that it was an isolated incident that they will pay for dearly with a couple draft picks. I doubt they bring the Pats' history to the forefront and effectively further put into question the integrity of the game itself.

Don Vito
09-11-2007, 10:55 PM
I hope Goodell swings the hammer just as hard on the Patriots as he has been on the players thus far. Which would mean no Day 1 for the Patriots in the 2008 NFL Draft.

Is there any basis to using that as a consequence or as a Colts fan do you just want to see NE get screwed as much as possible?

Mr. Stiller
09-11-2007, 11:02 PM
video taping, sketching, personally watching and memorizing. same deal

ex cameraman/ coach said he was sent in the past to do that and he said it happens with every team



So we shouldn't suspend players for steroids because "everyone does it"? They got busted, they should face the penalty.

IF what they suspect is true, the Pats were on the Jets offensive frequency (Knowing exactly what they're offensive play call was) and the cameraman was taking pictures and signaling the pats bench.

It sounds as if they were actually using the information for that game. Sure he took pictures, and from what I read he was communicating the playcalls to the Pats bench.

IF both of those accusations are true, then it's the same case of Steroids practically, they artificially altered the game by cheating. It's illegal to do those things, but they gave themselves and unfair advantage.

So if every team does this, why have the Pats been caught? Only ones to be caught and only team to be pushed to League office and competition committee? Even if it's rampant they are still busted and just like a player busted for steroids they should pay the consequences, Harrison/Merriman didn't get the "Everyone does it" free card.

nfrillman
09-11-2007, 11:04 PM
First of all, we now have a definitive answer to which team's fans are the biggest homers on this forum.

It's interesting that the Patriots have developed the reputation of being excellent at halftime adjustments.......I wonder why. It'd be interesting to see the 1st half and 2nd half figures of the Patriots in the Belicheck era.

I also feel that the punishment for the Patriots should be incredibly severe. The players are getting hammered on their punishments and their actions are not effecting the integrity of the game (besides steroids). The Patriots should have every draft pick taken from them in the next draft, or have consecutive first round draft picks forfeited.

As for the claims that the entire league is doing it, how freakin crazy are you. The Patriots have been suspected of doing this multiple times, and they are the only team that has been proven guilty of this. Using that same logic that means every pitcher is scuffing the ball, every batter is corking their bat, every hockey player has a stick with too much curve, every team has someone stealing signs from centerfield, every team changes the direction of the air conditioners to the benefit of their team whether its kicking a football or playing baseball, because by god somebody has been caught doing those very things before.........thus everyone is doing them.......ignorant and assanine.

Don Vito
09-11-2007, 11:07 PM
First of all, we now have a definitive answer to which team's fans are the biggest homers on this forum.

It interesting that the Patriots have developed the reputation of being excellent at halftime adjustments.......I wonder why. It'd be interesting to see the 1st half and 2nd half figures of the Patriots in the Belicheck era.

I also feel that the punishment for the Patriots should be incredibly severe. The players are getting hammered on their punishments and their actions are not effecting the integrity of the game (besides steroids). The Patriots should have every draft pick taken from them in the next draft, or have consecutive first round draft picks forfeited.

As for the claims that the entire league is doing it, how freakin crazy are you. The Patriots have been suspected of doing this multiple times, and they are the only team that has been proven guilty of this. Using that same logic that means every pitcher is scuffing the ball, every batter is corking their bats, every hockey player has a stick with too much curve, every team has someone stealing signs from centerfield, every team changes the direction of the air conditioners to the benefit of their team whether its kicking a football or playing baseball, because by god somebody has been caught doing those very things before.........thus everyone.......ignorant and assanine.

I definitely would not consider Patriots fans the biggest homers, the thing is very little material has come out on this yet. The Pats obviously did something wrong, but to say things like "it was just them" or "get rid of all their picks" are things that cannot be determined at this point.

BroadwayJoe10
09-11-2007, 11:39 PM
well, ive been waiting for people to come back on and argue about how stupid i was and how the camera man couldn't have affected the game; hopefully everyone has learned that he could have had a huge affect. Now, whether he did or not is not up to us nor could we ever figure it out; that is for the comish to figure out.
Now, in terms of consequences; as far as i know there hasn't been a precendent set yet for any type of punishment for this type of action. Do i think taking away every pick or every first round pick a bit sever? yes i do. And do i say things like that to my friends? of course i do. Earlier at dinner i was saying how i think the punishment should be, making Billy boy where a 3 piece suite the entire game for the duration of the season or give the jets their 1st and 2nd rounders. NOw am i serious? Nah not at all, although id love to see the look on Belichik's face when Goodell tells him he has to wear a suite to the game. But i do think it has to be severe.
There have been players who have been punished severely, if the pats are let off easy it would be setting an ugly double-standard; that one illegal act, which affects the performance of one player, is punishable for a year or 8 games, but another illegal act that has an affect on the entire outcome of the game and the way another team performs is not as reprehensible.
That having been said, I am looking forward to hearing the pats side of the story and the consequences for it. Now, the NFL still hasn't made a formal stance on it, but sources say that the comish has determine a preliminary decision on it.

yodabear
09-11-2007, 11:41 PM
Bill Bellicheck is a doo-doo brain. They should have to forefit next week, pay a 15 million dollar fine, have no draft picks in next years draft, and Bellicheck should be suspended 10 games.

JK17
09-11-2007, 11:42 PM
Bill Bellicheck is a doo-doo brain. They should have to forefit next week, pay a 15 million dollar fine, have no draft picks in next years draft, and Bellicheck should be suspended 10 games.

I say you put him in your club....

Dam8610
09-11-2007, 11:44 PM
Is there any basis to using that as a consequence or as a Colts fan do you just want to see NE get screwed as much as possible?

Odell Thurman got 2 years for a DUI. Day 1 of one draft seems like the type of price that would equate to that for years of cheating and violating league rules. The fact that I would derive pleasure out of the Patriots suffering as a Colts fan has nothing to do with it, and judging by some other comments on this thread, I'm being kind.

yodabear
09-11-2007, 11:46 PM
They must be brought down with the fullest extent of the law. I'd make them trade teams with the Cleveland Browns.

21ST
09-11-2007, 11:51 PM
They should make it so that no matter what they do during the regular season they cant go to the playoffs

tom
09-11-2007, 11:53 PM
The patriots are so ***! Talk about a dynasty? Not so... I have more respect for mike vick than I do for bill b... at least I can believe that vick is an idiot, belichik is simply a cheater... He should be fired ON THE SPOT!

The league should suspend him, ASAP... Patriots suck ass!

P-L
09-12-2007, 12:23 AM
Despite my name, I do not consider myself a Patriots fan. I have no bias towards this issue. However, some of you are being as biased against the Pats as much as the Pats fans are being for their team.

Despite previous accusations, the Patriots have been caught once. They have been proven to have done this once. Out of 209 games in the Bill Belichick era, they have been proven to be cheating in one of those games. Is it ok? Absolutely not. It is not acceptable by any means. However, you guys want to cripple a franchise for cheating in ONE game? Some of these suggestions are absurd. Lose all their first day picks? Lose their entire draft? Why don't we just force the Patriots to forfeit every single game next year? I think forcing them to forfeit one 1st Round pick and a heavy fine is a very fair punishment. I'd bet a punishment like that would make the Patriots stop as well as any other teams that are doing this.

LonghornsLegend
09-12-2007, 12:37 AM
Despite my name, I do not consider myself a Patriots fan. I have no bias towards this issue. However, some of you are being as biased against the Pats as much as the Pats fans are being for their team.

Despite previous accusations, the Patriots have been caught once. They have been proven to have done this once. Out of 209 games in the Bill Belichick era, they have been proven to be cheating in one of those games. Is it ok? Absolutely not. It is not acceptable by any means. However, you guys want to cripple a franchise for cheating in ONE game? Some of these suggestions are absurd. Lose all their first day picks? Lose their entire draft? Why don't we just force the Patriots to forfeit every single game next year? I think forcing them to forfeit one 1st Round pick and a heavy fine is a very fair punishment. I'd bet a punishment like that would make the Patriots stop as well as any other teams that are doing this.



yes but them getting caught brings into question how many times they have done it before, i find it hard 2 believe this was the very first time, im pretty sure they have done it before and had a system worked out, how many times or which games we may never know that...


but when you think about who the coach is, who the qb is, the talent they have around them, for them to STILL stoop to cheat makes you question how many games they have done this, otherwise if they were what they were made out to be i wouldnt see the need to even try something like this, unless to just rub it in the Jets faces...


either way, i think you still put an * on this whole era, and its belicheks fault, people have been calling them classy for so long, and ive yet to see it...he looks exactly the opposite, and i cant wait to hear what he has to say...cheating is cheating, steriods is cheating, stealing signals with cameras is cheating, if someone gets caught on steriods or receiving them (barry bonds) then noone knows how long he used them, what month or year, they can just assume that their stats are inflated due to cheating...


so i dont see how anyone can say, "oh its just one game, they won the rest on their own", i mean, wouldnt you like to think they could demolish the jets on their own? so if they felt the need to cheat here, hard for me to believe they never tried or thought of this before at some point, and LT was exactly right for calling them out last yr

Dam8610
09-12-2007, 01:09 AM
Despite my name, I do not consider myself a Patriots fan. I have no bias towards this issue. However, some of you are being as biased against the Pats as much as the Pats fans are being for their team.

Despite previous accusations, the Patriots have been caught once. They have been proven to have done this once. Out of 209 games in the Bill Belichick era, they have been proven to be cheating in one of those games. Is it ok? Absolutely not. It is not acceptable by any means. However, you guys want to cripple a franchise for cheating in ONE game? Some of these suggestions are absurd. Lose all their first day picks? Lose their entire draft? Why don't we just force the Patriots to forfeit every single game next year? I think forcing them to forfeit one 1st Round pick and a heavy fine is a very fair punishment. I'd bet a punishment like that would make the Patriots stop as well as any other teams that are doing this.

Why not? If ONE DUI = 2 year suspension, then ONE game of cheating = forfeit Day 1.

hcbrad08
09-12-2007, 01:17 AM
Id like to see a two week suspension of Bill Belichick. No access to facilities no contact whatsoever with the team for 2 weeks and then fine the team a draft pick and the front office a fine. This was cheating, Belichick is known for knowing eactly what goes on with his team and is accused as was parcells and as is mangini of being an obsessive micromanager... He obviously knew what was going on and was using the information...Theyve been caught twice and accused many more times (that have been undisclosed) GOODELL warned all owneers and coaches about this before the season (and the patriots were atop a watch list for this type of thing) and I think the coach should be held accountable....

I agree with the irony many people see in calling the Patriots as an organization high class.... (In order of how egregious the deed is)

1) Belichick being petty with a former assistant named mangini and only mentioning him by name when the Patriots beat the Jets.

2) Rodney Harrison taking HGH to rehab from an injury...An isolated incident (but after the spying scandal one wonders whether or not the team condoned this use and behavior.Perhaps even promoted it?)

3) The patriots steal the Jets signals during a game and cheat their way to a win (I dont care ifthey were going to win by a hundred....if tiger woods is up by 13 strokes oin the 72nd hole at augusta with a 2 inch put to win the Masters and instead he picks up his ball or kicks it in the hole, and then signs his card hes disqualified bc he violated the rules and cheated...The pats cheated and had an unfair advantage)

4)Potentially even more damning...The NFL is looking into whether the Pats were tapping into and stealing the Jets Audio Frequency at the Meadowlands...They were expliciting trying to gain an unfair advantage...and Im sure you mom todl you this in 1st grade theyre just making fun of you and trying to cheat you because theyre jealous or scared of you....The Pats were scared going into that game despite being a superior team they needed a security blanket...proving once again bill belichick is a big baby and needs his blanky and to suck on the teet bc his mommy isnt there to tell him he'll win the game. So what does the insecure coach do? CHEAT

Not high or low but...

NO CLASS

* (Think about it)

remix 6
09-12-2007, 05:18 AM
i love how people here act like their team never stole anything. ITS PART OF THE GAME. just learn to live with it

tom
09-12-2007, 05:32 AM
Steelers used to give their players steroids 20 years ago, and if that were to happen today, I'd be all for the steelers getting ******... fair play is fair play, and the pats haven't been playing fair... today this is how the nfl works, and goodell should set (yet another) example by suspending bill b.

tom
09-12-2007, 05:49 AM
i love how people here act like their team never stole anything. ITS PART OF THE GAME. just learn to live with it

EAT **** AND DIE YOU MOTHA ****** HATER!

tom
09-12-2007, 05:50 AM
not to mention belichik is a ****!

bored of education
09-12-2007, 06:45 AM
It is part of the game and your 'elitest' team got caught first in other words the hammer will drop upon the team the team formerly known as a respected organization.

A 2nd round pick and 5th round pick would suffice. An example will be made of the Patriots, showingthey are a ***** to roger G just like every other team. you want competitive advantages welp, thanks for the two forfeited picks.

know one is singling the Pats out, except for the fact the team with such success over the last few years was CAUGHT.

deal with it. everyone else does it, WE KNOW. YOU GOT CAUGHT.

Jay
09-12-2007, 07:33 AM
you are officially the biggest homer on this forum. unless remix is. no part of this complete garbage "argument" makes any sense in the slightest. what, comparing cheating to cheating is too difficult for you to figure out? you think the patriots may have cheated to NOT gain an advantage? i'm disgusted. i can't even begin to describe what an utter travesty of logic that complete load of crap is. you should seriously contemplate never posting about football again (at least, outside of the patriots team board, where you can be a homer to your little heart's content), much less anything else. clearly "logic" and "common sense" are utterly lacking in whatever corner of new england you're currently infecting.

Excuse me? Skip the rhetoric and get to your point. You quoted me saying that this in no way compares to an NBA OFFICIAL shaving points from an NBA basketball game. That is, by far and away, the most ridiculous assertion I have ever read on this message board, and trust me, you've got some real winners here. If you can't grasp the difference, then clearly "logic" and "common sense" are utterly lacking in whatever corner of this country you're currently infecting. Because please, I am begging you, attempt to show me the difference between an NBA referee intentionally calling penalties to determine the outcome of a game and an entire team doing whatever they can to win. I'll tell you what the difference is, it's called execution. The Patriots still had to go out there and play the damn game, and there is NO god damn way anyone can guarantee the end results. The Jets could have read the plays from our playbooks on Sunday and they still would have lost.

This is why they do film studies all week. Unfortunately, because of this, everything gets called into question, and that is unfortunate. But they did it to themselves.

I don't know how many times I can say they were wrong before you lot of _____ (fill in the blank, wouldn't want to get an infraction for having the audacity to question a mod) sit around and get it.

People in glass houses shouldn't be casting stones. The Pandora's box has been opened. So far there are already people crawling out of the woodworks bringing other teams to light. I've already sited and example of the Dolphins from last year. There have been complaints of the Packers from this week. remix posted a videographer's email saying he worked for both the Patriots and Panthers doing the same thing. It's only going to expand from here. So now I'd like to ask some questions to the Packers, Dolphins, and Panthers: are you going to start questioning your teams ethics????? iF u DoNt Ur A hOmErSsssss!!!11!!!!one!

Guess what, it's everyone. And if this was the Chiefs or the Jaguars or the Texans, no one would give a flying **** about this. The only reason this is a big deal is because it's the Patriots, and it's New York. And that's fine. I understand that.

But I don't want to hear anything when it comes to ethics. Are you telling me it's ethical to bring guys in for a job interview just to learn the dirt on your competition with no intention of hiring? Every team in the NFL does it, and it's widely accepted, but tell me how that's ethical. Teams spend hours and hours all week studying the other teams film to figure out their tenancies and and play schemes.

But you know, the idiotic part of this is I am wasting my time. It doesn't matter how many times I say "the Patriots were wrong," "they should be fined," "this is inexcusable," you guys are going to jump on this because Pats fans have what most of your teams don't: a winning program with lots of recent championships. It's a jealousy issue. Don't pretend it's not. You all love the fact that this is the Patriots. So I take everything that's said here with a grain of salt. Because this is clearly being played up because it's the Patriots. But I don't know how many times I can say the Patriots were wrong without screaming it in your face before you ******* get it.

Wake up and smell the ******* coffee. You should seriously consider learning the facts and knowing what you're talking about before you ever call me out again. I don't care what your status on this board is, the moment you start becoming a regular poster like everyone else, you are fair game. I will not stand for ridiculousness when it comes to the Patriots or any of my teams, and nor does anyone else when it comes to theirs. The word HOMER should be banned from this forum, because it is the most played out word in the history of the dictionary. No one on this board has the right to call anyone a homer. No one. Again, people in glass houses shouldn't be casting stones.

But hey, carry on with your petty arguments. I seriously don't know why I even bother with this place because rationality is certainly not one of its finer qualities. I'll just go back to sitting back and waiting for it all to unfold... much like I did with the Michael Vick thing...

But one last time before I hear another ******* peep from anyone:

THE PATRIOTS WERE WRONG!!!!!

THEY SHOULDN'T BE DOING THIS!!!

THEY DESERVE TO BE PUNISHED!!!

Feel better now? Even bolded everything for you so it would really stand out.

Jay
09-12-2007, 07:38 AM
EAT **** AND DIE YOU MOTHA ****** HATER!

not to mention belichik is a ****!

This all seemed very necessary.

comahan
09-12-2007, 07:43 AM
Homer. Homer. Homer?

bored of education
09-12-2007, 07:44 AM
Jay you bring up some good points, I dont address the fans of the New England Yankees of this site only when I speak of the lack of intelligence that resounds in their fan base. I live in New England, and to think that someone like you is a respresentation of the majority of New England Yankees fans is moronic. You are a 7%. But this will blow over, and another team if they are idiotic enough will get caught and the New England Yankees ebing the 1st team to be caught will be almost forgotten.

Jay
09-12-2007, 07:56 AM
I understand that you are on a completely different intelligence level than all of us, but I'm going to try to give my short opinion on this entire story. I might need to take a few breaks in between though as I may have trouble concentrating on one thing for more than 10 minutes due to the severe intelligence gap that is between me and you...you and I... whatever.

This is obvious. That's OK. I won't hold it against you. You tried really hard, and that's all that counts.

1. Your Pats cheated.
2. They got caught.

Never said they didn't. Thank you for being repetitive.

3. Its not the first time.

Nope, sure isn't the first time in NFL history that a team has done this. They've all done this or something like it many, many times, as you will soon find out. But this is, in fact, the first time a team has been busted for it. So by definition, yeah, I guess this is the first time.

4. It has a HUGE impact on the game. I dont understand how anybody can think knowing what the opposing team is going to do ahead of time doesnt make a difference. I've yet to hear any argument on this.

Sure you have. It's called convincing me that a camera operator can figure out what a hand signal means, decipher the play call, get it to the offensive coordinator who then puts it over to Brady who then manages to get the entire offense to understand what's going on all within a nice 24 second window, then yeah, I'll agree it had a huge impact on the game. But I don't see it happening. And you could put the same camera guy in the second row with a pair of binoculars and accomplish the same thing.

Why do you think teams have two guys on the sideline calling out plays, one being a decoy? Could it be... just maybe... that every team in the league tries to figure out the other teams plays?????????

Oh sweet irony. But of course, I feel inclined to remind everyone that this doesn't excuse the Patriots in this situation, because god knows I have to throw that disclaimer out there any time I accuse another team of doing anything.

5. They need to be punished. More than a fine, and more than a 2nd day pick.

If you can cite for me an example in NFL history where a team has had to forfeit a draft pick and compare it to this, I'll be right there on the bandwagon with you.

Jay
09-12-2007, 08:01 AM
Jay you bring up some good points, I dont address the fans of the New England Yankees of this site only when I speak of the lack of intelligence that resounds in their fan base. I live in New England, and to think that someone like you is a respresentation of the majority of New England Yankees fans is moronic. You are a 7%. But this will blow over, and another team if they are idiotic enough will get caught and the New England Yankees ebing the 1st team to be caught will be almost forgotten.

Completely sensible, and I thank you. I think. I just think people are getting way too carried away. I think this will be bad for the NFL, to be honest, because it's only going to bring this all to light in the grand scheme of it all.

Just like Rodney Harrison, I am not denying that the Patriots were wrong at all. I just want people to stop being so god damn irrational and use their head. It's always something with the Pats. It was Randy Moss, and he's going to be a horrible teammate, and he's going to ruin the Patriots, you'll see, haha couldn't happen to a better team. And guess what. Model citizen. Incredible first game.

And it's not just here. The New England media is out of ******* control. These idiots here actually put out reports that the Patriots were thinking of releasing Randy Moss. It's just getting old quick.

Jay
09-12-2007, 08:23 AM
I'm not trying to call you out or anything, I just think people need to take a step back (myself included) and wait for the facts to come out before they get carried away and wrapped up in all this. What I found fascinating was:

WERE PATS STUNG BY COMPETITION COMMITTEE?

There's a theory making the rounds in league circles that the Sunday confiscation of Matt Estrella's camera was the result of a specific effort by the NFL's Competition Committee to nail the Patriots.

It was, some believe, a sting operation.

Rumors also are swirling that Jets coach Eric Mangini, who was with the Pats through the 2005 season, began to spread the word to other teams in 2006 regarding the tactics that Bill Belichick employs. But even after a close call last year in Green Bay, the Patriots kept doing it.

The thinking in some circles is that the Competition Committee, which has endorsed the use of a radio receiver in the helmet of one defensive player, wants to use the Patriots' situation as the impetus for getting the additional two votes necessary to pass the rule.

In March 2007, 22 of the 24 teams needed to push the measure through voted in favor of it.

Though such a rule will not be perfect given the extent of the substitutions made on defense, it would eliminate the temptation to steal defensive signals, because it would eliminate the defensive signals.

And, in our view, it's a no-brainer that this rule will be passed come March 2008.

Whoever brought up the Bill Polian factor is about to get some rep. Again, I add the disclaimer, that this excuse the Pats, but where are the ethics in colluding with other teams to make an example of your main competition so you can get a rule to pass? (and keeping in mind that pretty much every team is trying to get signs in some form or fashion) Just some food for thought...

bored of education
09-12-2007, 08:25 AM
A. they F=ed up
B. alot of teams do it
c. no one is single out the pats
d. they got caught
e. harrison ahem(joke obviously no correlation)
f. 2 picks gone most likely
g. bill P from the Colts being on the competition committee has nothing to do with it


kthanxbye


That was ME

Jay
09-12-2007, 09:19 AM
Yeah, OK. I'd totally go through all that if I cared. But I don't. You just keep telling yourself whatever makes you feel good about yourself. It'll all come to a head. Everyone can continue making their ridiculous assessments of the situation. Moral of the story: as long as you don't get caught, it's OK.

Jay
09-12-2007, 09:28 AM
Tomlin on alleged spying: 'Where's there's smoke, there's fire'

15 hours ago

PITTSBURGH (AP) — Steelers coach Mike Tomlin isn't surprised a New England Patriots employee is suspected of videotaping signals by Jets coaches during Sunday's season opener.

Spying rumours in the NFL are nothing new, Tomlin said Tuesday, and he wouldn't be surprised if the allegations were true.

"Usually where there's smoke, there's fire, so those rumours are founded on something," said Tomlin, an NFL assistant coach for six years with Tampa Bay and Minnesota before being hired by Pittsburgh. "No, it's not totally shocking, no."

NFL security confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee during New England's 38-14 victory Sunday, ESPN.com reported. The employee was accused of aiming his camera at the Jets' defensive coaches as they signalled to players on the field.

Last season, the Green Bay Packers had an issue with a man wearing a Patriots staff credential who was carrying a video camera on their sideline.

Tomlin did not say he suspects the Patriots of spying - the Steelers and New England meet on Dec. 9 - but said all NFL coaches are aware of and protect against subterfuge.

"You hear rumours of things of that nature, but there's nothing new in terms of confirming it," he said. "It's never been confirmed in any incidence in my knowledge."

The lone first-year NFL coach to win his opener last weekend, Tomlin said the Steelers have methods to protect against spying, but he wouldn't reveal them.

"We like to keep our methods private so we can continue to be successful," Tomlin said. "We don't spend a lot of time worrying about that, but we are sharp enough to protect ourselves versus the potential of something like that happening against us.

"Really, this is nothing new. You see offensive play callers covering their mouths, that's been going on for a long time, and that's the reason that's done."

Hmm... trying not to get caught...

bored of education
09-12-2007, 09:32 AM
Jay you lost SOME cred with that, if that means anything lol. Tomlin is saying how he tries to prevent it happening to his team(someone stealing his stuff). He is not saying he is hiding his ways of stealing other teams strategies and signals.

Jay
09-12-2007, 09:33 AM
9/12/07
Statement from Bill Belichick

New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick has issued the following statement.

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment.”

http://www.patriots.com/search/index.cfm?ac=searchdetail&pid=27642&pcid=41&rss=1

JK17
09-12-2007, 09:33 AM
Yeah, OK. I'd totally go through all that if I cared. But I don't. You just keep telling yourself whatever makes you feel good about yourself. It'll all come to a head. Everyone can continue making their ridiculous assessments of the situation. Moral of the story: as long as you don't get caught, it's OK.

A section of what he said has to deal with when you claimed it was just because its the Patriots that there is outcry.

He mentioned what I am trying to say with Merriman. Its funny, because the Patriots are the biggest group of fans who are willing to say the guy doesn't deserve to play the game, the guys a cheater, this, that. Yet when your team gets caught cheating its okay because everyone else in the league does it. I just don't understand how they are excused. You say that you admit its wrong, you admit its not okay, your not making excuses. But you are making excuses, you keep referencing other teams in the league doing this based on speculation. you keep saying it couldn't have had this big of an effect. Those are excuses for what your team did.

Now I'm not saying people should keep harping on the issue, and associating all Patriots or Patriots fans with this. Your a fan of the team, and you can only control so much. Because I'm a Charger fan doesn't mean I support steroids, or support anything like that. But the excuses aren't neccesary there's no hiding or excusing the issue.

Jay
09-12-2007, 09:34 AM
Jay you lost SOME cred with that, if that means anything lol. Tomlin is saying how he tries to prevent it happening to his team(someone stealing his stuff). He is not saying he is hiding his ways of stealing other teams strategies and signals.

Meh, either way. It implies a lot. I am a little surprised he was that candid.

bored of education
09-12-2007, 09:34 AM
Bellicheck, oddly enough, said nothing.

JK17
09-12-2007, 09:35 AM
Hmm... trying not to get caught...

He is trying to prevent his signals from being stolen. Like he said, he's not suprised their is speculation of this going on, but its not like he's mentioned or proven any other teams of doing it.

The article does indicate that the Patriots did steal signals, and that Tomlin had suspected them of this.

Jay
09-12-2007, 09:39 AM
A section of what he said has to deal with when you claimed it was just because its the Patriots that there is outcry.

He mentioned what I am trying to say with Merriman. Its funny, because the Patriots are the biggest group of fans who are willing to say the guy doesn't deserve to play the game, the guys a cheater, this, that. Yet when your team gets caught cheating its okay because everyone else in the league does it. I just don't understand how they are excused. You say that you admit its wrong, you admit its not okay, your not making excuses. But you are making excuses, you keep referencing other teams in the league doing this based on speculation. you keep saying it couldn't have had this big of an effect. Those are excuses for what your team did.

Now I'm not saying people should keep harping on the issue, and associating all Patriots or Patriots fans with this. Your a fan of the team, and you can only control so much. Because I'm a Charger fan doesn't mean I support steroids, or support anything like that. But the excuses aren't neccesary there's no hiding or excusing the issue.

Are you specifically citing me?

Rodney Harrison got suspended. I feel bad for him, I understand where he was coming from, but he broke the rules and deserved to be suspended. That is all I have said about the matter and that's all there is to it.

I really don't get what you are getting at. There are no excuses. They were wrong, they are going to be punished and that's all there is to it. I just don't want to hear people start acting self-righteous because their team didn't get caught. Thus the "glass house" comment, which I very clearly understand.

At this point, the steroids thing has touched fans of about every team/city. I certainly don't want to hear anything from a Broncos fan about Rodney Harrison when they had Bill Romanowski and Todd Sauerbraun roiding up on their watch...

YAYareaRB
09-12-2007, 09:39 AM
In a game last year, we played against some team and memorized the coaches defensive signals. It was so basic, it was too easy. Would that be considered cheating?

Jay
09-12-2007, 09:42 AM
________
He is trying to prevent his signals from being stolen. Like he said, he's not suprised their is speculation of this going on, but its not like he's mentioned or proven any other teams of doing it.

The article does indicate that the Patriots did steal signals, and that Tomlin had suspected them of this.

Really?

Tomlin did not say he suspects the Patriots of spying - the Steelers and New England meet on Dec. 9 - but said all NFL coaches are aware of and protect against subterfuge.

JK17
09-12-2007, 09:49 AM
Are you specifically citing me?

Um, as to the part about there being an outcry because its the Patriots yes, but the rest of it is a blanket statement on Patriots fans in general that may or may not include you, I haven't read enough of your posts on the other issues to know for sure.

Rodney Harrison got suspended. I feel bad for him, I understand where he was coming from, but he broke the rules and deserved to be suspended. That is all I have said about the matter and that's all there is to it.

Agreed, I'm not referencing that situation, just the reaction and similarities there are in the situations between cheating with steroids, and cheating with signal stealing.

I really don't get what you are getting at. There are no excuses. They were wrong, they are going to be punished and that's all there is to it. I just don't want to hear people start acting self-righteous because their team didn't get caught. Thus the "glass house" comment, which I very clearly understand.

I know there are no excuses, but I don't think anyone is acting any more self righteous then usual. No one has said "X team is more classy then the Patriots because...". But saying that other teams are doing it, or it didn't make a difference, things you have said, are excuses whether you claim to be making them or not.

At this point, the steroids thing has touched fans of about every team/city. I certainly don't want to hear anything from a Broncos fan about Rodney Harrison when they had Bill Romanowski and Todd Sauerbraun roiding up on their watch...

I know, but that doesn't change that when Merriman was at first caught, the entire NFL fanbase was ready to kill him like he was the only one. Granted, using that same analogy, it would be a fair assumption to say that every team is equally effected in signal stealing. But that doesn't make it okay, and it doesn't allow you to call out other teams until something is proven. If, in response to a Merriman comment, I was to accuse Rodney Harrison of HGH use, before he was caught, I can almost guarantee you every single New England fan would be screaming bloody murder. Thats the way it goes, you can't claim other people are definitely doing it unless they are. You can speculate but thats not solid evidence at all.

JK17
09-12-2007, 09:51 AM
Really?

Yes, Really.

Steelers coach Mike Tomlin isn't surprised a New England Patriots employee is suspected of videotaping signals by Jets coaches during Sunday's season opener.

Spying rumours in the NFL are nothing new, Tomlin said Tuesday, and he wouldn't be surprised if the allegations were true.

Jay
09-12-2007, 09:57 AM
point to one confirmed instance of denver stealing signs via videotape.

Don't have to. That is not the point. If you think the Broncos are completely innocent of attempting to figure out other teams signals, by whatever means, then you are incredibly jaded.

point to a single failed test, while in denver, by bill romanowski or todd sauerbrun.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_4022235%20Todd%20Sauerbrun

Romo... lol... he's written a whole book about it. I don't really need a failed test to prove that...

then, think really hard about how the hell i've thrown a single "stone" from my "glass house". the front door's open, and for all the ridiculous innuendo you've been throwing out trying to distract everyone from the fact that the patriots are the ONLY team being disciplined for this, you can't find a single thing in it. so seriously? stop with the glass house crap. it's still a terrible proverb that you clearly don't understand.

No, I clearly don't have a problem with the concept, and I am not going to sit here and argue semantics. Other teams didn't get caught because the Patriots were specifically targeted. And guess what, I doubt another team will ever get caught because the Patriots will be made an example of. But if you want to go on thinking other teams haven't done anything like this... I think I've already covered that...

Jay
09-12-2007, 10:00 AM
Yes, Really.

Yeah, and then he specifically speaks in generalities, and specifically wouldn't say whether or not he through the Patriots were actually doing it. So yeah...

JK17
09-12-2007, 10:04 AM
Don't have to. That is not the point. If you think the Broncos are completely innocent of attempting to figure out other teams signals, by whatever means, then you are incredibly jaded.




No, I clearly don't have a problem with the concept, and I am not going to sit here and argue semantics. Other teams didn't get caught because the Patriots were specifically targeted. And guess what, I doubt another team will ever get caught because the Patriots will be made an example of. But if you want to go on thinking other teams haven't done anything like this... I think I've already covered that...

Yeah, and then he specifically speaks in generalities, and specifically wouldn't say whether or not he through the Patriots were actually doing it. So yeah...

But your not making excuses....right?

Jay
09-12-2007, 10:49 AM
or, gosh, i go by the evidence and not by a patriots fan defending his team by assuming everyone is doing it. speaking of stones...

Again, missing the point.

"Thank you for visiting The Denver Post. We are sorry the article that you requested is no longer available. Please search for this article in our archive search."

nice article.

Headline is still there... but since that one didn't work...

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_4472889

Broncos decide to punt Sauerbrun
By Bill Williamson
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 10/10/2006 11:23:11 PM MDT

Todd Sauerbrun's Broncos career essentially ended on a July minicamp day when he was informed he failed an NFL drug test.

Sauerbrun did what he promised the Broncos he wouldn't do. He let the team down after it went out on a limb by trading for him in May 2005.

Tuesday, more than three months after that fateful July day, the Broncos closed the door on Sauerbrun. His Denver days ended when his replacement, Paul Ernster, did everything the team asked him to do in Sauerbrun's absence. Ernster was solid enough on punts and kickoffs that the Broncos decided to release Sauerbrun on Tuesday and make Ernster their choice.

But just in case that's not enough:

http://www.fanturf.com/nfl/news/story.php?id=5794842
http://www.bettingexpress.com/news/sports_betting/205615.html
http://kissmesuzy.blogspot.com/2006/07/obese-punter-terrorizes-denver.html

OK, you get it, you were wrong.

how about this one, clearly pointing out that he was a PANTHER when it happened and that he only served his suspension while on our roster.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10951-2005Mar29.html

speaking also of "facts"...

Haha... you know damn well what I am talking about and that there were two incidents.

which is a good excuse for not having one. fine, find me a quote out of his book stating that he used banned substances while on the denver roster. or are you simply assuming again?

How about this entire interview that he talks about it?

http://www.weei.com/pages/268228.php

Or how about this trip down memory lane:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2190441

Romo tells '60 Minutes' he used steroids

Associated Press

Updated: October 13, 2005, 6:35 PM ET

NEW YORK -- Bill Romanowski used steroids and human growth hormone supplied by Victor Conte, the former NFL linebacker tells CBS' "60 Minutes" in an interview to be broadcast Sunday.

Romanowski said he took illegal steroids for a two-year period starting in 2001 and got them from Conte, the former head of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, which has been at the center of a steroids controversy in several sports.

Hmm... he started in 2001... his last year in Denver... 2001... he has come out himself and admitted using it... don't really think I need anything else. But hey, you were successful in getting me to spend WAY more time than I wanted to looking for it (which was like longer than 2 minutes), so good job.

they were made an example of because they got caught. jesus christ. unless you think the league office is out to get a team that, according to the media, is the "model of good behaviour" and whatever other ridiculous nonsense ESPN spoonfeeds you on a regular basis? you've officially left the realm of reality in your hurry to defend anything and everything the patriots have ever done by saying "well you've done it too, even though i have absolutely no proof, i KNOW you did it and you're stupid for thinking that just because no evidence exists your team is innocent!!!"

No **** sherlock, of course I know why they are being made example of. Thanks for stating what I've already said in an effort to make your argument. And again, if you think other teams are completely innocent, you're being extremely arrogant and ignorant. But that's on you, I don't care.

fine, let's play that game: i KNOW you committed murder yesterday, and it doesn't require any evidence to prove it because if you don't believe it you're just "jaded" (which is again, the complete opposite of the word you probably actually intended to use). i mean, it's obvious. my buddy's friend who was totally there said you did it. and this homeless dude says he thinks you could've done it. and my dad says a lot of people commit murder. so clearly, you're guilty. wonderful "logic" you're using there, kiddo.

http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/laugh.gif

Yeah, you're not being dramatic at all. Have fun convincing yourself that the big bad evil Pats are the only one's doing anything like this. Think whatever you want. I really don't give a ****.

JK17
09-12-2007, 11:13 AM
Hmm... he started in 2001... his last year in Denver... 2001... he has come out himself and admitted using it... don't really think I need anything else. But hey, you were successful in getting me to spend WAY more time than I wanted to looking for it (which was like longer than 2 minutes), so good job.

Now, I hate defending the Broncos, in any circumstances, but wouldn't the fact that those two players Sauerbraun, and Romanowskis' years where they were either caught or admitted to starting using illegal supplements, were their last years on the Broncos roster, mean that those teams actually took a stance and did something about it, like getting the players off their roster?

Finsfan79
09-12-2007, 11:39 AM
They should be fined heavily by the league. They should lose draft picks (1st, 2nd,3rd, etc etc), they should be forced to forefit that game as well.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
09-12-2007, 11:44 AM
njx9 i'd just stop, there is obviously no way he's going to realize or admit that he's wrong. he has put in far to much effort and argued for to long.

It is obvious to everyone but him and apparently most Pats that what the Pats are/were doing is wrong and they are hopefully being punished accordingly. Jay's argument carries nothing of substance but rather an assumption that others must be doing it because the Pats were, but with nothing to actually show as evidence. How someone can argue so homerishly for something like this shocks me, especially when the evidence stands right infront of you.

TitleTown088
09-12-2007, 11:56 AM
Jay how difficult is it to admit the Pats are immensly limp in the wrist? Hellooooo McFly!! They got caught cheating, therfore they are cheaters.

CC.SD
09-12-2007, 12:26 PM
The upside to all this that no one's talking about: because the Patriots cheated, freakin TO does not have a Super Bowl ring. You know he'd be ten times worse if that happened.

bored of education
09-12-2007, 12:33 PM
LT could have had a ring thoughhh.....

Shiver
09-12-2007, 12:45 PM
John "Czar" of Fox Sports is reporting:

The Pats could lose a third-round draft choice, which is a pretty steep penalty. Others are asking for multiple picks. Also, a one-game suspension is seriously being considered for Belichick. A lot of teams are suggesting that.http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7216720?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

I think this portion of his blog id 100% accurate:

There is no doubt that offensive coaches have strongly influenced the NFL's Competition Committee and that's why for the second year in a row a proposal to allow a defensive player to have a radio helmet — like the quarterback's — was defeated at the March meetings. The coach-to-defensive player radio transmitters missed by two votes, 22-10. The year before the vote was 18-14. With the Patriots getting caught, there definitely is a very good chance the defensive proposal will pass this April in Palm Beach.
"I really believe if the defense had radio helmets, coaches like Bill wouldn't be using a video camera like this," said one NFL head coach.

It made no sense to not do that in the first place.

JK17
09-12-2007, 01:07 PM
John "Czar" of Fox Sports is reporting:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7216720?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

I think this portion of his blog id 100% accurate:



It made no sense to not do that in the first place.

As for the one game suspension that was suggested, I'd support it, but really don't want it to come this week, solely for personal reasons. If we lose, I want to know we lost with the "best coach" there, and if we win, I don't want to hear an excuse like they were missing their coach.

CC.SD
09-12-2007, 01:17 PM
LT could have had a ring thoughhh.....

I'm confident e'll snag one before it's all said and done anyway.

nobodyinparticular
09-12-2007, 01:51 PM
which is a good excuse for not having one. fine, find me a quote out of his book stating that he used banned substances while on the denver roster. or are you simply assuming again?


Until getting caught with HGH from BALCO while a member of the Raiders, Romo had, according to his biography, stayed one step ahead of the rules. He would use the latest products out there that had yet to be banned by the NFL and when that was banned he would move to something else. Why he continued with HGH after it was added to list of banned substances, who knows.

So if his word is to be trusted, Romo's book actually proves njx9 right--he did not use banned substances while a Bronco.

nobodyinparticular
09-12-2007, 01:54 PM
John "Czar" of Fox Sports is reporting:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7216720?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

I think this portion of his blog id 100% accurate:



It made no sense to not do that in the first place.

It's sickening that even in this article, they treat Belichick like a football god, one who is perfect and all success should be compared to him.

Mr. Stiller
09-12-2007, 01:56 PM
a 3rd round pick is a joke.

The steelers lost a 3rd round pick a few years ago because of a cap issue they mis-figured.

we were like $5k over the cap, and reported it, then we reported a cut or something to fix it and we still got docked a 3rd rounder.

if it's just a 3rd round pick, Belicheat wins again.

nobodyinparticular
09-12-2007, 01:58 PM
a 3rd round pick is a joke.

The steelers lost a 3rd round pick a few years ago because of a cap issue they mis-figured.

we were like $5k over the cap, and reported it, then we reported a cut or something to fix it and we still got docked a 3rd rounder.

if it's just a 3rd round pick, Belicheat wins again.

It needs to be more than a 3rd. Agreed.

D-Unit
09-12-2007, 02:03 PM
My Motto: Cheaters ALWAYS Win!

Mr. Stiller
09-12-2007, 02:03 PM
It needs to be more than a 3rd. Agreed.

Depending on the leagues decision of the severity of the case, I think they should forfeit the Jets game (For the sheer fact they cheated DURING that game and should forfeit their W). The Jets don't get the W because they too Lost.
Pats are 0-0 next week, Jets are 0-1.

That would fix that.

As for the other aspects:

2M cap penalty per year for the next 2 years (They are docked 2M from the available cap room). Of which that 2M of penalty is given to charities.

Belicheck misses 4 games (Standard for a player caught with Steroids)

Belicheck is also fined $50,000

JK17
09-12-2007, 02:04 PM
Depending on the leagues decision of the severity of the case, I think they should forfeit the Jets game (For the sheer fact they cheated DURING that game and should forfeit their W). The Jets don't get the W because they too Lost.
Pats are 0-0 next week, Jets are 0-1.

That would fix that.

As for the other aspects:

2M cap penalty per year for the next 2 years (They are docked 2M from the available cap room). Of which that 2M of penalty is given to charities.

Belicheck misses 4 games (Standard for a player caught with Steroids)

Belicheck is also fined $50,000

There is no way in hell, a team ends up 0-0 after a week, it would cause way to much confusion and controversy come time for the playoffs.

Mr. Stiller
09-12-2007, 02:14 PM
There is no way in hell, a team ends up 0-0 after a week, it would cause way to much confusion and controversy come time for the playoffs.

How would it cause controversy?

They don't get the W. Then at the end of the season if they don't have enough W's they don't get in.. if they do, then you do it as normal.

and if that doesn't float.. Fine give them a L as well.

JK17
09-12-2007, 02:16 PM
How would it cause controversy?

They don't get the W. Then at the end of the season if they don't have enough W's they don't get in.. if they do, then you do it as normal.

and if that doesn't float.. Fine give them a L as well.

I just don't see the forfeit as a possibility...If they did though it would have to be giving them a loss, not just blanking the game..

How would it cause controversy? They'd have a different winning percentage, they'd have a different head to head status with NYJ, different record vs. AFC, all kinds of tie breakers would be effected if they only had 15 instead of 16 games on the record.

duckseason
09-12-2007, 02:17 PM
You must spread some reputation around before giving it to njx9 again

Thanks buddy, I was in need of some quality entertainment.

Sure you have. It's called convincing me that a camera operator can figure out what a hand signal means, decipher the play call, get it to the offensive coordinator who then puts it over to Brady who then manages to get the entire offense to understand what's going on all within a nice 24 second window, then yeah, I'll agree it had a huge impact on the game. But I don't see it happening. And you could put the same camera guy in the second row with a pair of binoculars and accomplish the same thing.

I just wanted to point out yet again that there is no need for the camerman to decipher anything and relay the information within 24 seconds. He just needs to get the footage to the coaches. Once they've discovered the meaning of just one signal, they have an advantage. There's no need to know exactly what every single play is for the entire game. And we don't know exactly how much useful info the Pats gleaned from these tapes anyway. But I don't think there's any question that they did indeed benefit greatly one way or the other. Otherwise, why go through all the trouble and risk getting caught? You really think your beloved Patriots are so dense that they were unable to use that information to enhance their chances of winning games? You "don't see that happening?" So what was the motive here? Were they using the tapes to satiate a hand-signal fetish?

slightlyaraiderfan
09-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Losing draft picks is fair enough punishment, especially if its a 3rd like that stuff that Shiver posted.

duckseason
09-12-2007, 02:44 PM
Losing draft picks is fair enough punishment, especially if its a 3rd like that stuff that Shiver posted.

Yeah, regardless of what punishment the league decides on, I think the Pats have already inflicted a ton of suffering on themselves. Their image has been forever tarnished. Discussions about Tom Brady will now include jokes about how he's "always been great at reading the defense." Wink, wink. Rather than solid praise for his ability to read the defense. Bill Belichick has often been talked about as perhaps one of the greatest coaches the game has seen, but now that discussion has a whole new chapter that makes him look like a joke and pale in comparison to the legends. The loss of respect is massive and will hurt them more than anything else, imo. Like I said earlier, cheaters cheat everybody, including themselves. Jay can sit there and say that we're all happy this happened because we hate the Patriots and we're jealous of their success, but really, it just makes me angry. I'm not happy at all to see them do this to themselves. I want to believe that the Pats really are that good. That they really are the ultimate team. That Belichick really is Kasparov-esque. I don't want to think that those things were possible mirages.

bored of education
09-12-2007, 02:46 PM
a 2nd, 5th or 6th and some other stuff(fines or other consequences) would suffice

JK17
09-12-2007, 02:49 PM
Yeah, regardless of what punishment the league decides on, I think the Pats have already inflicted a ton of suffering on themselves. Their image has been forever tarnished. Discussions about Tom Brady will now include jokes about how he's "always been great at reading the defense." Wink, wink. Rather than solid praise for his ability to read the defense. Bill Belichick has often been talked about as perhaps one of the greatest coaches the game has seen, but now that discussion has a whole new chapter that makes him look like a joke and pale in comparison to the legends. The loss of respect is massive and will hurt them more than anything else, imo. Like I said earlier, cheaters cheat everybody, including themselves. Jay can sit there and say that we're all happy this happened because we hate the Patriots and we're jealous of their success, but really, it just makes me angry. I'm not happy at all to see them do this to themselves. I want to believe that the Pats really are that good. That they really are the ultimate team. That Belichick really is Kasparov-esque. I don't want to think that those things were possible mirages.

So then, how much do you think this would actually taint their Super Bowls? Obviously there's always a layer of skepticism as of recently, but do you think this casts a legitimate shroud, or asterisk, around everything they have done since 2001?

bored of education
09-12-2007, 02:57 PM
It has to be questioned. It may not be a big deal, but any sort of competitve edge of this nature I think is a bigger deal than it is made out to be. Being able to pick up tendencies of a D or O just by certain hand signals, etc is huge. Picking up blitzes, coverages and the like definatly played a role greater than assumed. Even though I'm assuming that. Alot of things in the past few years that the Pats have done has me thinking more and more about this. Once I break down films with Jaws and Steve Sabol and have some evidence, I'll let you all know.

duckseason
09-12-2007, 02:59 PM
So then, how much do you think this would actually taint their Super Bowls? Obviously there's always a layer of skepticism as of recently, but do you think this casts a legitimate shroud, or asterisk, around everything they have done since 2001?

Well, it certainly raises questions. Definitely makes people wonder. Although, this whole thing also makes you wonder just how prevalent this type of thing has been across the entire league. For me personally, just looking back on the miracle season and everything, yeah, I've got an asterisk next to their entire "dynasty" at this point. But that's just me. That's what's sad about the whole thing. We'll never know just how good they really were. For all we know, Bonds may have passed Aaron all by himself.

LonghornsLegend
09-12-2007, 03:03 PM
I think this puts a big asterisk * on their era just like barry bonds, because now we never know...we dont know if bonds took steriods because he was never caught, the pats were caught but we dont know how long or what games they did it...


*

Basileus777
09-12-2007, 03:32 PM
I think this puts a big asterisk * on their era just like barry bonds, because now we never know...we dont know if bonds took steriods because he was never caught, the pats were caught but we dont know how long or what games they did it...


*

Steroids give a much bigger competitive advantage than stealing signals, its not even comparable. This whole situation has been overblown. Everyone tries to steal signals, the only thing special here is that the Pats used a camera to record it. The Patriots should be punished, but all this talk of asterisks is silly.

bored of education
09-12-2007, 03:36 PM
I think stealing signals is worse. Steroids=one or two guy. Signals=alert guys, whole squad. But that's just me. I'm a frigging jerk

duckseason
09-12-2007, 03:49 PM
Steroids give a much bigger competitive advantage than stealing signals, its not even comparable. This whole situation has been overblown. Everyone tries to steal signals, the only thing special here is that the Pats used a camera to record it. The Patriots should be punished, but all this talk of asterisks is silly.

I think that's debatable. Football is all about the X's and O's. You can have all the 'roided out beasts you want, but they're still just chess pieces that need to be put in the correct position to topple the King. You're right, these two forms of cheating really aren't comparable. The main reason being that the advantage gained cannot be accurately quantified either way.

Mr. Stiller
09-12-2007, 03:53 PM
Steroids give a much bigger competitive advantage than stealing signals, its not even comparable. This whole situation has been overblown. Everyone tries to steal signals, the only thing special here is that the Pats used a camera to record it. The Patriots should be punished, but all this talk of asterisks is silly.

Steroids: 1 player gains advantage.

Stealing signals: Offense/Defense know whats coming, and where. By which they call the perfect play to expose the opponents offense/defense.

But yes, I can see how Steroids give the edge over knowing exactly what is happening:rolleyes:

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
09-12-2007, 04:09 PM
So forget the intergrity of the game?

The integrity of the game? Son, that was gone long ago when they started using steroids...

Eaglez.Fan
09-12-2007, 04:11 PM
So forget the intergrity of the game?

What integrity of the game... I'm completely against hacking the systems of playcallers and such.

But what is different between studying the other teams playbook and guessing which type of play they are going to call in which situation. Or guessing what the other team is going to call via studying what signals mean what. there is no difference therefore that part should be allowed. And I'm sure alot of teams do it.

then would you call this cheating?

Say if Ray Lewis happens to look over to the opposing teams coach and see's him raise his right arm for example. And the other team throws it long for a TD. Then that same thing happens again. And he knows to look for it.

Basileus777
09-12-2007, 04:15 PM
Steroids: 1 player gains advantage.

Stealing signals: Offense/Defense know whats coming, and where. By which they call the perfect play to expose the opponents offense/defense.

But yes, I can see how Steroids give the edge over knowing exactly what is happening:rolleyes:

I probably wasn't clear enough in my post. I said that in regards to Barry Bonds and his "tainted" records and the issue of asterisks, not about whether steroids helps you win games. Bonds would have never come close to breaking Aaron's record without steroids, the same cannot be said of the Patriots' Superbowl victories. We don't know how much of an advantage stealing defensive signals gives, but I doubt the Patriots knew "exactly what was happening" all the time.

bored of education
09-12-2007, 04:16 PM
ROFLZ LOL ZOMGZ@this reminding me of the Coors light commercial.. THE RULES ARE THERE..THE COMPETITIVE BALANCE IS THERE!! haha

Jvig43
09-12-2007, 04:17 PM
i just want to hear the punishment and move on, i feel bad for the players, im pissed about this, and im only a fan, i cant imagine how the players feel knowing that their head coach cheated, we all wounder how long this has been going on, but think about how brady and co. feel? and the fact that now every time they win this is all were going to hear about.

bored of education
09-12-2007, 04:19 PM
Head Coach Cheated..they were all in on it

PACKmanN
09-12-2007, 04:23 PM
so does that make the coach on the hot seat? players might lose all of the respect they had for him, I know he has all of these SB but he just made the organization an embarrassment.

nfrillman
09-12-2007, 04:54 PM
Jay, I cannot believe you don't see how this could be a competitive advantage. Again, the players do not have to know what the defense is going to do. All the coaches have to do is call a play that puts their team at a schematic advantage against the play the other team is calling, and if the cheating team does what they are supposed to then it will be a successful play. How hard is that to understand? For example, if the coaches realize the other team is running an all out blitz, they might just give Brady a quick screen pass. And then holy smokes, they catch that screen pass and there is no one around because most the defense is going after the QB. Do you find it completely inconcievable that they could use one of those fancy VCR machines at halftime and see what hand signals corresponded to what plays? A team would not break the rules for no reason at all. That is completely insane to think a team would break rules knowing they had no ability to gain from it.

You cannot make your argument from the stance you are making it, it is ridiculous. Everything that is being said about the Patriots is based on FACT. You are simply claiming, from some mysterious source the rest of us have no knowledge of, that everyone does it. Do you not see how ridiculous that is? Do you really think that argument would stand up in any other real life situation? I get caught speeding, I tell the officer everyone does it. Does it change the fact that I broke the law, and I got caught? No it doesn't. Stop being so incredibly absurd with your arguments. You cannot make blanket accusations against the entire league without siting your evidence against the entire league. If you fail to do so you just make yourself look like a gigantic flaming pile of homer.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
09-12-2007, 05:18 PM
Steroids give a much bigger competitive advantage than stealing signals, its not even comparable. This whole situation has been overblown. Everyone tries to steal signals, the only thing special here is that the Pats used a camera to record it. The Patriots should be punished, but all this talk of asterisks is silly.

the mental aspects of the game are half the battle there bud. If u can cut out half of the challenge, and all u know have to do is execute, u can't honestly believe that there isn't a huge advantage. Also, steroids can be linked to a single individuals advantage, not an entire team........

The Great Jonathan Vilma
09-12-2007, 05:28 PM
i just want to hear the punishment and move on, i feel bad for the players, im pissed about this, and im only a fan, i cant imagine how the players feel knowing that their head coach cheated, we all wounder how long this has been going on, but think about how brady and co. feel? and the fact that now every time they win this is all were going to hear about.

haha, ya, okay. Lets feel bad for all the players who were on a cheating team. A team that may or may not have cheated its way to the longest winning streak in NFL history, multiple Superbowls, and endless media love. Boy, i sure do feel bad for those guys, rough life.


I'm not saying that this had been going on that long, but we will never know, and speculation will be everywhere around them. I don't feel bad for them in the least

Eaglez.Fan
09-12-2007, 05:35 PM
one is against the rules, one isn't. further, it's amazing that you think studying the playbook and knowing what's in it is the same as seeing it called and knowing EXACTLY what play the team will be running across from you. did you honestly just suggest they're the same thing?

Do you really think that the opposing teams are that stupid that they call the exact same play using the exact same signs. No they don't. The sign that they call doesn't give out the whole play. Do you really think Al Saunders has 700+ signs on what they are calling. No they don't. They might have 10 signs that just say one aspect about the play. And going by what I just said, yes they are the same. Guessing which play they are running via watching film or guessing which play they are about to run via hoping they didn't change there system over halftime, or timeout etc.. It's still taking a guess and they don't know the entire play by using on simple sign or motion from the coach.

slightlyaraiderfan
09-12-2007, 05:44 PM
Do you really think that the opposing teams are that stupid that they call the exact same play using the exact same signs. No they don't. The sign that they call doesn't give out the whole play. Do you really think Al Saunders has 700+ signs on what they are calling. No they don't. They might have 10 signs that just say one aspect about the play. And going by what I just said, yes they are the same. Guessing which play they are running via watching film or guessing which play they are about to run via hoping they didn't change there system over halftime, or timeout etc.. It's still taking a guess and they don't know the entire play by using on simple sign or motion from the coach.
How do you know?

Eaglez.Fan
09-12-2007, 05:58 PM
First of all could you even think of 700 different plays. Second of all those last 600 must be very creative and you don't see those guys doing really weird things they are mainly regular signs.

And btw Drew Brees said that if your stealing plays on the feild or during a game, then it's part of the game.

That's the only thing I agree with.

Jvig43
09-12-2007, 06:12 PM
Head Coach Cheated..they were all in on it

uhuh because espn interviewed the team, and all of them were completely blown away by it, and surprised, but i guess that means they all cheated :rolleyes:. yeah and im sure that each forty seconds before every play, he looked at the camera and then shared with the whole team. they cheated, ok, as been said by almost everyone, all teams do it, the pats took the next step and got caught and will be penalized for it, and rightfully so, but to say the coach did it which means the whole team did it is bull sh**. they dont know whats going on off the feild during the game.

slightlyaraiderfan
09-12-2007, 06:14 PM
Wait, what am I thinking. The offense doesn't have any signs, those are called through radios. Only defenses need signs, and I imagine that there isn't that many calls on defense.

Dam8610
09-12-2007, 06:14 PM
It's called convincing me that a camera operator can figure out what a hand signal means, decipher the play call, get it to the offensive coordinator who then puts it over to Brady who then manages to get the entire offense to understand what's going on all within a nice 24 second window, then yeah, I'll agree it had a huge impact on the game.

It's called halftime adjustments. You get their defensive signals down in the first half, go in at halftime, analyze, and base your playcalls in the second half off of the opponent's defensive playcalls. Notice how the Patriots pulled away convincingly in the second half after a closely contested first half? Is that coincedence, or cheating?

Whoever brought up the Bill Polian factor is about to get some rep.

Of course, because anything bad that happens to the Patriots is Bill Polian's fault. Even if this was Bill Polian's plan, he obviously knew about the Patriots' cheating ways well before that, as he had all sideline cameras removed from both sidelines prior to the 2006 AFC Championship Game. Now why would he do that if he didn't know what the Pats were doing? So because he knows about something that gives a team an unfair advantage and acts upon it as one of the leaders of the competition committee, that makes him the bad guy? Sounds like a Pats fan itching to place the blame elsewhere to me.

Moral of the story: as long as you don't get caught, it's OK.

What proof do you have that any other team in the NFL violates league rules in its gameday practices? None? Then why do you continue to make this foolish assertion?

Don't have to. That is not the point. If you think the Broncos are completely innocent of attempting to figure out other teams signals, by whatever means, then you are incredibly jaded.

What proof is there of Denver trying to steal signals? None? Then how can you assert without a doubt that Denver does it? Or any other team for that matter? Just because the Patriots did it DOES NOT mean every team in the NFL does it.

No, I clearly don't have a problem with the concept, and I am not going to sit here and argue semantics. Other teams didn't get caught because the Patriots were specifically targeted. And guess what, I doubt another team will ever get caught because the Patriots will be made an example of. But if you want to go on thinking other teams haven't done anything like this... I think I've already covered that...

"Oh woe is me, Bill Polian targeted us because he's jealous." Bulls***! IF Bill Polian was involved in a competition committee "sting" on the Patriots (which is simply a rumor, not a fact), then it was because he KNEW what was going on, and had to act on it as a member of the competition committee. If he didn't know what the Patriots were doing, why would he demand that all sideline cameras be removed prior to the 2006 AFC Championship Game?

I wonder if I'll get any type of response to this...

bored of education
09-12-2007, 07:27 PM
LOL@what drew brees said

remix 6
09-12-2007, 07:33 PM
"we did it so everyone does it so it's totally ok that we did it."

are you serious? further, i'm still waiting for actual proof, you know, like the league taking action against a team, to show that other teams are doing this. can't find any examples? can't find 31 other examples? weird. makes you look sort of... well.. wrong.

did i ever say "we can do it because other teams did" ?

no. i said other teams do it too and theres a witness (ex cameraman/coach gurantees everyone else does it)


my point: were not the only ones so stop saying "Patriots are cheaters..they wont because they cheated"

its been an issue for awhile and for all we know, Steelers, Colts, Bucs, Ravens might have done it during SB year.s Other teams could have done it. Is anyone is cheating its the whole league. we just got caught..31 other teams didnt

theres been many cases where teams have filed something against another but they didnt have enough evidence.

Dolphins bought a special tape when they went nuts on D against us and 1 of their players admitted "it helped"

just because nothing has been said, doesnt mean other teams dont do it or have done it. all depends if they get caught or not or if the other team takes action against it and tries to get them in trouble

-dolphins stealing Patriots last year. admitted by a player that the "special tape helped

-Packers-Eagles had an issue aswell.

other broken rules "cheating".
-Broncos cheating the salary during their '97-98 championship

SchizophrenicBatman
09-12-2007, 07:36 PM
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/3740/recordingitsph3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

bored of education
09-12-2007, 07:42 PM
Ahahhahahahah

JK17
09-12-2007, 08:00 PM
did i ever say "we can do it because other teams did" ?

no. i said other teams do it too and theres a witness (ex cameraman/coach gurantees everyone else does it)

By frequently referencing how often other teams allegedly do it, you keep insinuating that its excusable...

Oh but wait ur ex-cameraman and coach say everyone does it.....ooo okay.

my point: were not the only ones so stop saying "Patriots are cheaters..they wont because they cheated"

Right, because you were so leinient on Merriman in not calling him a cheater right? Get real. If this weren't the Patriots you would not feel the same way. Its fact, look at how you, personally react to Merriman, I've argued with you before about him and you keep insisting he's a cheater, even though everyone else in the league has probablydone it. And I'm not saying he's not, he cheated. So don't act like the Patriots didn't cheat, because they did.

its been an issue for awhile and for all we know, Steelers, Colts, Bucs, Ravens might have done it during SB year.s Other teams could have done it. Is anyone is cheating its the whole league. we just got caught..31 other teams didnt

Yeah, except which of those teams were caught doing it? No, were there allegations of those teams doing it? No. So don't call out other teams on stuff that you really don't have any evidence.

theres been many cases where teams have filed something against another but they didnt have enough evidence.

Name some. I'm sure there might be but I doubt you know that for fact or you would have listed them right away.

Dolphins bought a special tape when they went nuts on D against us and 1 of their players admitted "it helped"

Yeah, and your entire team and fanbase flipped out about it. So why is your situation differnet. So I'm sure it helped you guys too, so you just made the other point right there, it did in fact, help you.

just because nothing has been said, doesnt mean other teams dont do it or have done it. all depends if they get caught or not or if the other team takes action against it and tries to get them in trouble

Yeah, but go ahead. Keep accusing all these other teams with no evidence but current Patriots and ex-patriots employees. Considering you had the same reaction, about steroids when it came to Merriman...wait no, you didn't?

-dolphins stealing Patriots last year. admitted by a player that the "special tape helped

And that was cheating. Everyone agreed. That's one other team, and they werne't stealing signals, they were listening to snap counts.

-Packers-Eagles had an issue aswell.
Explain this issue. I don't know too much about it, but I bet its not the same thing as what the Pats did. Just a hunch though.

other broken rules "cheating".
-Broncos cheating the salary during their '97-98 championship
Oh, wait, so you mean you don't have any more examples of more similar things? But there were so many right? And violating the salary cap now makes it okay for the Pats to do this?

Bottom line is you just can't admit the Pats screwed up. Get over it, they're not this class organization everyone paints them to be. And further, you promised you'd admit Bellichek was an asshole if he was guilty of anything....

So...I'm still waiting...

Dam8610
09-12-2007, 08:02 PM
did i ever say "we can do it because other teams did" ?

no. i said other teams do it too and theres a witness (ex cameraman/coach gurantees everyone else does it)

So the evidence of your assertion is hearsay from a former NFL employee? That's a strong case you have there, what a fool I was for ever doubting your theory that every NFL team does this.

my point: were not the only ones so stop saying "Patriots are cheaters..they wont because they cheated"

You've yet to produce any proof that the Patriots are not in fact the only team in the NFL to do this, apart from hearsay from a former NFL employee. Why should his word be taken for fact again?

its been an issue for awhile and for all we know, Steelers, Colts, Bucs, Ravens might have done it during SB year.s Other teams could have done it. Is anyone is cheating its the whole league. we just got caught..31 other teams didnt

Again you assert that other teams are doing this WITH NO PROOF. Here's a similar argument to the one you've made here: For all we know, this former cameraman/coach is disgruntled that he hasn't gotten another oppurtunity with an NFL team, and therefore wants to make the entire establishment look as bad as he possibly can.

Quite frankly, I'm offended that you would accuse the Colts of cheating in this fashion during their championship run after Bill Polian ensured that no such type of cheating could occur during the 2006 AFC Championship Game by requiring that all sideline cameras be removed from both sidelines prior to the game. I'm sure this was just Polian being a control freak, and not ensuring fair competition, right?

theres been many cases where teams have filed something against another but they didnt have enough evidence.

Meaning there's no proof. Show PROOF of another team cheating, or stop claiming that the rest of the league does it.

Dolphins bought a special tape when they went nuts on D against us and 1 of their players admitted "it helped"

Did that violate league rules? Obviously not, because this was a publicized incident, and the NFL took no action against the Dolphins. The NFL is going to take action against the Patriots, so, again, you've failed to produce an example of another team cheating.

just because nothing has been said, doesnt mean other teams dont do it or have done it. all depends if they get caught or not or if the other team takes action against it and tries to get them in trouble

PLEASE STOP trying to defend the Patriots by saying "everyone else does it" when you can't even provide ONE example of another team violating league rules to gain an unfair competitive advantage.

-dolphins stealing Patriots last year. admitted by a player that the "special tape helped

Addressed above.

-Packers-Eagles had an issue aswell.

What issue was that? Was any action taken by the league against either team? Or is this you yet again looking for any way you can to defend the Patriots?

VY10
09-12-2007, 08:25 PM
It's OK Pats homers. Your team is getting what they deserve. Have fun watching next years draft!

ks_perfection
09-12-2007, 08:26 PM
uhuh because espn interviewed the team, and all of them were completely blown away by it, and surprised, but i guess that means they all cheated :rolleyes:. yeah and im sure that each forty seconds before every play, he looked at the camera and then shared with the whole team. they cheated, ok, as been said by almost everyone, all teams do it, the pats took the next step and got caught and will be penalized for it, and rightfully so, but to say the coach did it which means the whole team did it is bull sh**. they dont know whats going on off the feild during the game.

They all benefited from it, but I agree that they didn't know about it. For the simple reason it you don't go telling people about cheating unless they need to know about it. The more people know about it the higher the chances it will get out, especially when the players will move to different teams in the off-season. Like Enron, the top management didn't tell all of its employs about their illegal activities.

VY10
09-12-2007, 08:36 PM
The Patriots are a low class organization all the way around.
-Their thug players
-Their smug fans
-Their hobo coach
-Their extensive cheating that they actually did enough to get caught

This could not have happened to anyone better.