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SeanTaylorRIP
09-18-2007, 03:59 PM
K we will do an NFC positional rankings list. First up are RB and QB. Please include any reasoning needed. Obvious homer votes will be thrown out, such as ranking Julius Jones as the #1 RB for example.

Rank these QB's from 4-1, 1 being best:
-Donovan Mcnabb
-Jason Campbell
-Eli Manning
-Tony Romo

Rank these RB's from 6-1
-Brandon Jacobs
-Brian Westbrook
-Clinton Portis
-Ladell Betts
-Julius Jones
-Marion Barber

I'll start with mine:

QB's:
1) Donovan Mcnabb-I know he's been bad first 2 games but he's still my #1. Just rusty IMO letting throws get away from him but he still has that mobility and cannon of an arm. Doesn't help that his wideouts blow.
2) Tony Romo-Obviously has weapons but has shown the ability to spread the ball. Needs to prove he can be consistent for a whole season though to take the crown for me.
3) Eli Manning:Has many good games, and is a gunslinger but far to inconsistent to give his team a shot at serious success.
4) Jason Campbell: Trust me I could have easily had him higher but just because he has played the least I'll put him here. But potential wise I think he's the brightest of the 4.

RB's:
1) Brian Westbrook-Most dynamic player in the conference. Plays all over the field for the Eagles. Excellent pass catcher and rusher but still has never really carried a huge amount of carries in a single season.
2) Clinton Portis-The most talented back in the conference, best blocker of the bunch, solid receiver has true game breaking speed and hits the hole hard. Would be putting up 100+ every game if he didn't share the load.
3) Marion Barber-Hard runner, has speed to break away. Goaline effective running back, he however has never had to shoulder the load himself so maybe next year is the first year we see that.
4) Brandon Jacobs-Powerful runner but I still have my doubts about him being a starting RB in the league and getting 20+ carries a game.
5) Ladell Betts-Downhill runner who gets 4 yards a pop on every carry. 2nd best receiver after Westbrook, just a hard worker and a no nonsense runner.
6) Julius Jones-Crafty runner but lacks gamebreaking speed and dances a little too much.

LonghornsLegend
09-19-2007, 11:01 PM
K we will do an NFC positional rankings list. First up are RB and QB. Please include any reasoning needed. Obvious homer votes will be thrown out, such as ranking Julius Jones as the #1 RB for example.

Rank these QB's from 4-1, 1 being best:
-Donovan Mcnabb
-Jason Campbell
-Eli Manning
-Tony Romo

Rank these RB's from 6-1
-Brandon Jacobs
-Brian Westbrook
-Clinton Portis
-Ladell Betts
-Julius Jones
-Marion Barber

I'll start with mine:

QB's:
1) Donovan Mcnabb-I know he's been bad first 2 games but he's still my #1. Just rusty IMO letting throws get away from him but he still has that mobility and cannon of an arm. Doesn't help that his wideouts blow.
2) Tony Romo-Obviously has weapons but has shown the ability to spread the ball. Needs to prove he can be consistent for a whole season though to take the crown for me.
3) Eli Manning:Has many good games, and is a gunslinger but far to inconsistent to give his team a shot at serious success.
4) Jason Campbell: Trust me I could have easily had him higher but just because he has played the least I'll put him here. But potential wise I think he's the brightest of the 4.

RB's:
1) Brian Westbrook-Most dynamic player in the conference. Plays all over the field for the Eagles. Excellent pass catcher and rusher but still has never really carried a huge amount of carries in a single season.
2) Clinton Portis-The most talented back in the conference, best blocker of the bunch, solid receiver has true game breaking speed and hits the hole hard. Would be putting up 100+ every game if he didn't share the load.
3) Marion Barber-Hard runner, has speed to break away. Goaline effective running back, he however has never had to shoulder the load himself so maybe next year is the first year we see that.
4) Brandon Jacobs-Powerful runner but I still have my doubts about him being a starting RB in the league and getting 20+ carries a game.
5) Ladell Betts-Downhill runner who gets 4 yards a pop on every carry. 2nd best receiver after Westbrook, just a hard worker and a no nonsense runner.
6) Julius Jones-Crafty runner but lacks gamebreaking speed and dances a little too much.


I actually agree with both position rankings, and Im really high on campbell, loved what he did at Auburn, and he looks so poised out there, I think he's gonna end up being better then Eli and we should see some strides with him...I think he has the least experience so he should make the most mistakes this year, but he has so much potential...


really the NFC East qb's are solid top to bottom

Ward
09-19-2007, 11:22 PM
1. Donovan Mcnabb - Still clearly the best, but if he doesn't quit acting like a crybaby I may demote him to 2 just to spite him. Needs real receivers.
2. Tony Romo - Fast rising, could easily be #1 by the end of the season. Last season was no fluke!
3. Jason Campbell - Uber talented and on the way up. Will be interesting to see how he does with this year's line.
4. Eli Manning - What the hell happened to this guy? Really? Was this really the first overall pick in that draft? Good call making that trade, San Diego really got the bad end of that deal, what with Merriman and Rivers and all.

1. Brian Westbrook - Awesome player, I hate seeing him injured. Would be crazy to see him in a scheme where he was actually treated like a real running back. Amazing hands and vision.
2. Marion Barber - The actual best blocker, contrary to what ghetto thinks. The best vision, the second best hands to Westbrook. All he really lacks is that 5th gear to take it to the house.
3. Brandon Jacobs - Big beast and a one of a kind player. Sucks with him injured.
4. Clinton Portis - An injury prone, overrated, product of Denver.
5. Ladell Betts - A very strong scrub.
6. Julius Jones - A very fast scrub.

Giantsfan1080
09-20-2007, 12:08 AM
1. Donovan Mcnabb - Still clearly the best, but if he doesn't quit acting like a crybaby I may demote him to 2 just to spite him. Needs real receivers.
2. Tony Romo - Fast rising, could easily be #1 by the end of the season. Last season was no fluke!
3. Jason Campbell - Uber talented and on the way up. Will be interesting to see how he does with this year's line.
4. Eli Manning - What the hell happened to this guy? Really? Was this really the first overall pick in that draft? Good call making that trade, San Diego really got the bad end of that deal, what with Merriman and Rivers and all.

1. Brian Westbrook - Awesome player, I hate seeing him injured. Would be crazy to see him in a scheme where he was actually treated like a real running back. Amazing hands and vision.
2. Marion Barber - The actual best blocker, contrary to what ghetto thinks. The best vision, the second best hands to Westbrook. All he really lacks is that 5th gear to take it to the house.
3. Brandon Jacobs - Big beast and a one of a kind player. Sucks with him injured.
4. Clinton Portis - An injury prone, overrated, product of Denver.
5. Ladell Betts - A very strong scrub.
6. Julius Jones - A very fast scrub.

How could you possibly put Campbell ahead of Eli at this point? That's a joke. Regardless of what Eli did prior to the draft he has been a more successful QB than Campbell. And what no one ever mentions is that A) we would have to give up Osi instead of that 1st round pick B) we probably wouldn't havent taken Merriman if we did have that pick and C)Rivers has struggled the last 10 games of his professional career.

Ward
09-20-2007, 01:06 AM
How could you possibly put Campbell ahead of Eli at this point? That's a joke. Regardless of what Eli did prior to the draft he has been a more successful QB than Campbell.

Eli has accomplished nothing with an (until this season) excellent offense. If you changed his last name to Smith or Johnson, he's benched. For what it's worth, I have him and Campbell tied, but Campbell is on the way up whereas Eli is on the way down.

Giantsfan1080
09-20-2007, 11:34 AM
Eli has accomplished nothing with an (until this season) excellent offense. If you changed his last name to Smith or Johnson, he's benched. For what it's worth, I have him and Campbell tied, but Campbell is on the way up whereas Eli is on the way down.

Last time I checked Eli did make the playoffs in his first 2 years as a starter. Campbell is the one who has accomplished nothing so far.

bsaza2358
09-20-2007, 11:43 AM
Until Campbell has a full season under his belt, you have to give Eli the benefit of the doubt. Experience trumps potential at this point. At season's end, we can more fairly assess the situation in the East.

Jughead10
09-20-2007, 12:02 PM
Eli has accomplished nothing with an (until this season) excellent offense. If you changed his last name to Smith or Johnson, he's benched. For what it's worth, I have him and Campbell tied, but Campbell is on the way up whereas Eli is on the way down.

Despite being a moderator or whatever you are, you are officially a moron if you truly believe this.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-20-2007, 01:56 PM
Despite being a moderator or whatever you are, you are officially a moron if you truly believe this.

What Ward is arguing is that Campbell is a better player not who had a better career. Just because Eli has played more games and passed for more yards doesn't make him a better QB in current day. His opinion is valid. If you make that argument how the hell can you some of you rank Brandon Jacobs over Clinton Portis, when Jacobs has done nothing in his career yet.

Jughead10
09-20-2007, 02:00 PM
What Ward is arguing is that Campbell is a better player not who had a better career. Just because Eli has played more games and passed for more yards doesn't make him a better QB in current day. His opinion is valid. If you make that argument how the hell can you some of you rank Brandon Jacobs over Clinton Portis, when Jacobs has done nothing in his career yet.

I wouldn't do that either. As long as Clinton is healthy he is clearly better. But at the same token as of right now Campbell is clearly not better than Eli. That much is certain. He just can't get the ball downfield yet like Eli can.

bsaza2358
09-20-2007, 02:13 PM
Campbell hasn't had an opportunity to really throw downfield yet. Saunders is establishing the run, which is old school NFC East football. The play-action pass and the downfield game will be there. It's just not part of the repetoir just yet. I think this kind of issue needs to be discussed later in the season, when we have a chance to look at Eli and Campbell continuously for a few months.

Jughead10
09-20-2007, 02:21 PM
Campbell hasn't had an opportunity to really throw downfield yet. Saunders is establishing the run, which is old school NFC East football. The play-action pass and the downfield game will be there. It's just not part of the repetoir just yet. I think this kind of issue needs to be discussed later in the season, when we have a chance to look at Eli and Campbell continuously for a few months.

Well he missed Moss downfield for what was a TD the other night. Of course that was only one throw, but that should have been 6 points. Either way to definitively say that a guy who has started 9 games is definately better than Eli Manning is ridiculous. My reaction was more to the fact that it was said if Eli had a different last name than Manning, he would be benched. That is even more ridiculous. Or the fact that Campbell is "uber talented". I liked the Campbell pick for the Redskins, because we all knew Brunell was never gonna take them where they wanted to go, but I would never refer to him as "uber talented".

SeanTaylorRIP
09-20-2007, 02:28 PM
Well he missed Moss downfield for what was a TD the other night. Of course that was only one throw, but that should have been 6 points. Either way to definitively say that a guy who has started 9 games is definately better than Eli Manning is ridiculous. My reaction was more to the fact that it was said if Eli had a different last name than Manning, he would be benched. That is even more ridiculous. Or the fact that Campbell is "uber talented". I liked the Campbell pick for the Redskins, because we all knew Brunell was never gonna take them where they wanted to go, but I would never refer to him as "uber talented".

How is he not "uber talented", lol that word is funny. 6-5 230 pound QB's with good mobility, tough in the pocket and cannon arms don't exactly grow on trees.

Jughead10
09-20-2007, 02:33 PM
How is he not "uber talented", lol that word is funny. 6-5 230 pound QB's with good mobility, tough in the pocket and cannon arms don't exactly grow on trees.

It happens more than you would think. I mean if every QB who came along like that was actually "uber talented", every team could have a pro bowler under center.

bsaza2358
09-20-2007, 02:45 PM
Yes, because Eli has never missed a throw...

I'm not saying anything one way or another. Campbell has been efficient, but Eli is a more explosive offensive leader at this point in time. It is possible that Campbell will prove himself down the line. It's not fair to compare them because of the differing levels of experience.

Number 10
09-20-2007, 06:08 PM
Eli has accomplished nothing with an (until this season) excellent offense. If you changed his last name to Smith or Johnson, he's benched. For what it's worth, I have him and Campbell tied, but Campbell is on the way up whereas Eli is on the way down.

I disagree

Ward
09-20-2007, 10:24 PM
I'd just like to thank Giants1080 for actually engaging me with an argument, rather than insults. Thanks for having some common human decency, and a respect for the rules.

Turtlepower
09-21-2007, 12:25 AM
Eli Manning is heavenly. =D

Ward
09-21-2007, 12:32 AM
Last time I checked Eli did make the playoffs in his first 2 years as a starter. Campbell is the one who has accomplished nothing so far.

Eli went to the playoffs with his team, the result of an excellent supporting cast on offense and decent enough defense. The team wasn't really that far removed from the Super Bowl. Now it is. And it shows.

Campbell is, to quote a hero of mine, "a diamond surrounded by trash".

Turtlepower
09-21-2007, 12:34 AM
Eli went to the playoffs with his team, the result of an excellent supporting cast on offense and decent enough defense. The team wasn't really that far removed from the Super Bowl. Now it is. And it shows.

Campbell is, to quote a hero of mine, "a diamond surrounded by trash".

Campbell has two quality RBs, two quality WRs, but a somewhat suspect O-line. He definately has certain things going for him.

Ward
09-21-2007, 12:37 AM
Campbell has two quality RBs, two quality WRs, but a somewhat suspect O-line. He definately has certain things going for him.

I'd say he has one quality RBC and a fast receiving corps. The O-line would be awesome if Dockery were still there and everyone was healthy. But that isn't the case. Don't forget Campbell has had to deal with learning Saunders' infamously insane playbook.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 01:53 AM
QB's:
1) Tony Romo-Underrated QB that has bounced back from his infamous fumble and so called late season collapse that was overly criticized. Doesn't get the recognition he deserves. At some point, you have to believe what your eyes tell you.
2) Donovan Mcnabb-Based off this season's play he should be #4. The NFL is a league all about "what have you done for me lately". McNabb is resting on his laurels, but I think a turnaround is likely.
3) Eli Manning-Seriously can't stand his cry baby face. He's proved enough that he can hang in the league, but expectations are still unfairly high. Unfair because he doesn't have the ceiling to get there.
4) Jason Campbell-On the rise, but is more of a bus driver than anything else right now. I've always thought of him as a bus driver, even in college. Not that that's bad, because he could easily jump to #2 by the end of the year.

RB's:
1) Clinton Portis-Has all the talent you want. Will he finally get through a healthy year?
2) Brian Westbrook-If you can't gain the tough yard pounding your way through, you don't get the #1 ranking.
3) Marion Barber-The Barbarian plays with a controlled abandonment and is a complete RB that can run, block and catch. Could shoot to #1 sooner rather than later. This is the first year Dallas has a formidable OL since he's been w/the team.
4) Brandon Jacobs-When you combine a guy who is injury prone who runs upright, that just spells trouble.
5) Ladell Betts-Good back up.
6) Julius Jones-Just another guy.

Ward
09-21-2007, 02:09 AM
I have to ask the fans of Clinton Portis: What has this guy shown you post-Denver to make you believe he is an elite, or even great back? He's not even the most physically gifted back.

scottyboy
09-21-2007, 06:52 AM
i think D put it best with Eli having unfair expectations. He has looked great so far this year, but will never reach his older bro in terms of QB'ing. This is his 1st full year as being the leader of the O, and he's looked great so far(granted, it's 2 games in...) With even a mediocre D, he could be easily 2-0.

one thing gets me Ward, how if he wasnt a Manning would he be benched? Leading a team to the playoffs 2 years in a row doesnt call for benching, and neither does what he did in week 1. He even played very well last week. His stats have shown nothing in terms of benchin him. Many hate his "aw shucks" look and the media loves to chew him apart. His decision making has improved drastically this year, and he has to throw more and more with always playing from behind because of the lack of D.

Ward
09-21-2007, 12:20 PM
one thing gets me Ward, how if he wasnt a Manning would he be benched? Leading a team to the playoffs 2 years in a row doesnt call for benching, and neither does what he did in week 1. He even played very well last week. His stats have shown nothing in terms of benchin him. Many hate his "aw shucks" look and the media loves to chew him apart. His decision making has improved drastically this year, and he has to throw more and more with always playing from behind because of the lack of D.

Byron Leftwich has outperformed the kid over the past two years statistically, and his team has done better things with a less talented offense (IMO). And he lost his job.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 01:51 PM
Byron Leftwich has outperformed the kid over the past two years statistically, and his team has done better things with a less talented offense (IMO). And he lost his job.
Would you change your opinion if that statement wasn't true?

I mean, I'm not sticking up for Eli, cause I don't like him one bit, but that statement made me question the truthfulness of it. So out of curiosity, I had to look it up.

Leftwich
2005 11 Games Played 2123 Yards 15 TD 5 INT
2006 6 Games Played 1159 Yards 7 TD 5 INT

Manning
2005 16 Games Played 3762 Yards 24 TD 17 INT
2006 16 Games Played 3244 Yards 24 TD 18 INT

While Eli certainly threw more INTs, I don't know that I could call his play worse than Leftwich. I mean Leftwich only played 6 games last year. Outperformed is not a word I'd use. That comparison is not so good.

Ward
09-21-2007, 01:56 PM
Would you change your opinion if that statement wasn't true?

I mean, I'm not sticking up for Eli, cause I don't like him one bit, but that statement made me question the truthfulness of it. So out of curiosity, I had to look it up.

Leftwich
2005 11 Games Played 2123 Yards 15 TD 5 INT
2006 6 Games Played 1159 Yards 7 TD 5 INT

Manning
2005 16 Games Played 3762 Yards 24 TD 17 INT
2006 16 Games Played 3244 Yards 24 TD 18 INT

While Eli certainly threw more INTs, I don't know that I could call his play worse than Leftwich. I mean Leftwich only played 6 games last year. Outperformed is not a word I'd use. That comparison is not so good.

So we're counting injury against Leftwich? Because Leftwich had a better QB rating both of those years, and even you posting the stats doesn't prove I'm wrong, it proves Leftwich is better in any given game vs Eli Manning.

bigbluedefense
09-21-2007, 02:02 PM
Don't you think its a little early to rub the annoiting oil on Campbell? :|


He looked putrid against the Dolphins, and was inconsistent against the Eagles. Im not gonna take part in these rankings, its far too early to do that.

I'll say this. I think this division has a great cast of qbs. Campbell may one day develop into a great player, but he's far from it right now. Having that said, Id take the other 3 guys on my team anyday, with Campbell having potential to one day be "the guy". McNabb, Eli and Romo are all the real deal to me.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:03 PM
I have to ask the fans of Clinton Portis: What has this guy shown you post-Denver to make you believe he is an elite, or even great back? He's not even the most physically gifted back.
Well, I'm not a fan of Portis, but I did put him #1 in my rankings, so I'll explain some. In response to what he has done since Denver...

He was a few yards shy of 1500 combined yards in his first season with WAS with 7 TDs, 5 rushing and 2 receiving. In his second season he had over 1700 combined yards and 11 TDs. The last two years he's battled injuries, so naturally, public opinion is down on him. When healthy, he is a top RB. He appears healthy this season, so he topped my rankings. He can run, catch, block, run with power and here's how he separates himself from Barber... Portis can take it to the house and break a long one.

Westbrook gets his yardage stats, but he is overused. He would actually be better off in a RB by Committee approach. In the same period that Portis had those 5 and 11 TD seasons, Westbrook only had 3 rushing TDs in each season. He's dynamic, but he's forced to be because he's not a thumper. I just think of it as a nice way to put it that he lacks a power game.

Turtlepower
09-21-2007, 02:06 PM
So we're counting injury against Leftwich? Because Leftwich had a better QB rating both of those years, and even you posting the stats doesn't prove I'm wrong, it proves Leftwich is better in any given game vs Eli Manning.

I think you are interpreting the stats wrong. It proved that an injury prone Leftwich just threw the ball much left. His rating was higher, but not by much, but to say he would beat Manning in any given name is particular baloney.

Leftwich has been limping too much to be effective for his team.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:06 PM
So we're counting injury against Leftwich? Because Leftwich had a better QB rating both of those years, and even you posting the stats doesn't prove I'm wrong, it proves Leftwich is better in any given game vs Eli Manning.
QB rating is a poor indicator. Colt Brennan had the best QB rating last year in the history of college football. He's not the best QB ever to play college ball.

Romo's rating last year had exceeded Peyton at times... He was never better than Peyton as a QB.

Also, yes, I do believe that injury has to play a factor if you're going to compare the two since you said he "outperformed" him.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:07 PM
Don't you think its a little early to rub the annoiting oil on Campbell? :|


He looked putrid against the Dolphins, and was inconsistent against the Eagles. Im not gonna take part in these rankings, its far too early to do that.

I'll say this. I think this division has a great cast of qbs. Campbell may one day develop into a great player, but he's far from it right now. Having that said, Id take the other 3 guys on my team anyday, with Campbell having potential to one day be "the guy". McNabb, Eli and Romo are all the real deal to me.
I put Campbell fourth in my rankings and called him a bus driver. So no annointing in my rankings yet. I think this is a fun way to guage progress throughout the year. See how they change from beginning to end.

bigbluedefense
09-21-2007, 02:09 PM
Byron Leftwich is Drew Bledsoe part 2. His pocket presence is horrible. He's worse than Bledsoe in a sense that his release takes 2 years. And he puts no touch on his passes.

If he was a great qb, he wouldve gotten picked up in a heartbeat. The only team to show interest in him were the desperate Falcons. That means theres 31 teams in the NFL that felt better about their qb than Leftwich. That in itself says alot.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-21-2007, 02:10 PM
One thing I hate is when people say Clinton hasn't done anything since coming to D.C., that obviously proves you don't know what you are talking about.

bigbluedefense
09-21-2007, 02:14 PM
I think Washington has the best LB core in the East.

Washington
Fletcher
McIntosh


Thats beastly.

Ward
09-21-2007, 02:14 PM
One thing I hate is when people say Clinton hasn't done anything since coming to D.C., that obviously proves you don't know what you are talking about.

I never said he did nothing, I asked what has he done to make people believe he is elite.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:16 PM
Byron Leftwich is Drew Bledsoe part 2. His pocket presence is horrible. He's worse than Bledsoe in a sense that his release takes 2 years. And he puts no touch on his passes.

If he was a great qb, he wouldve gotten picked up in a heartbeat. The only team to show interest in him were the desperate Falcons. That means theres 31 teams in the NFL that felt better about their qb than Leftwich. That in itself says alot.
Leftwich really is a poor QB. I don't know what's good about him. My money is on him being a flop in ATL.

I think Eli would've been picked up pretty fast if he was cut. ...eventhough he is a cry baby.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-21-2007, 02:19 PM
I never said he did nothing, I asked what has he done to make people believe he is elite.

But what has Marion Barber, Brandon Jacobs, Julius Jones done, nothing, not sure anyone said he was elite but best RB in the division isn't out of the question. Also Brian Westbrook has only had 1 season that you would call great although he did share time in all of his other years and while dynamic he still is yet to prove he can be consistent in a 16 game season, and he can't get those tough yards.

Ward
09-21-2007, 02:19 PM
QB rating is a poor indicator. Colt Brennan had the best QB rating last year in the history of college football. He's not the best QB ever to play college ball.

Romo's rating last year had exceeded Peyton at times... He was never better than Peyton as a QB.

Also, yes, I do believe that injury has to play a factor if you're going to compare the two since you said he "outperformed" him.

It's not the best indicator, but it's one of the tools we have. Colt Brennan isn't the best QB ever in college, but he inarguably had one of the best seasons a QB has ever had in college. But that's neither here nor there because college QB ratings work differently.

If you're taking injury into account, then fine, that's your prerogative. But I'm not, and that's what leads me to the conclusions I've made. Give me Leftwich over Eli in any given game, and if they both had access to same weapons I am convinced Leftwich would do more. He has done more without talents like Tiki, Toomer, Burress, Shockey, and Jacobs.

bigbluedefense
09-21-2007, 02:20 PM
I don't get where all the Eli hate is coming from. I thought he's been playing very well considering the circumstances.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:20 PM
I think Washington has the best LB core in the East.

Washington
Fletcher
McIntosh


Thats beastly.
That's a pretty strong starting line up, but their depth doesn't scare anyone.

Khary Campbell - Nobody
H.B. Blades - Young and unproven
Randall Godfrey - Old and slowing down

I think Dallas has them beat from top to bottom.

Ward
09-21-2007, 02:21 PM
But what has Marion Barber, Brandon Jacobs, Julius Jones done, nothing, not sure anyone said he was elite but best RB in the division isn't out of the question. Also Brian Westbrook has only had 1 season that you would call great although he did share time in all of his other years and while dynamic he still is yet to prove he can be consistent in a 16 game season, and he can't get those tough yards.

You don't think it's odd that the one season where Westbrook was "the guy" he shined? And I don't know how you can hold injury against Westbrook vs Portis, who's played one full season in his career.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:23 PM
It's not the best indicator, but it's one of the tools we have. Colt Brennan isn't the best QB ever in college, but he inarguably had one of the best seasons a QB has ever had in college. But that's neither here nor there because college QB ratings work differently.

If you're taking injury into account, then fine, that's your prerogative. But I'm not, and that's what leads me to the conclusions I've made. Give me Leftwich over Eli in any given game, and if they both had access to same weapons I am convinced Leftwich would do more. He has done more without talents like Tiki, Toomer, Burress, Shockey, and Jacobs.
Why wouldn't you take injury into account? You said he outperformed Eli. How?

If you want to change you stance into now saying "he would do better".... well, now we're talking hypotheticals. ...and anyone can say anything without much clout.

bigbluedefense
09-21-2007, 02:23 PM
That's a pretty strong starting line up, but their depth doesn't scare anyone.

Khary Campbell - Nobody
H.B. Blades - Young and unproven
Randall Godfrey - Old and slowing down

I think Dallas has them beat from top to bottom.

Im not too big on Dallas's ILBs. Theyre good, very solid. But theres no stud in the middle of that core. Yes they have depth, but you naturally have more depth in the LB core when you run a 3-4.

I like James, I like Ayodele. Burnett needs to stay healthy. I have to admit, Carpenter isn't working out right now. There really isn't a markee guy there in the middle.

Fletcher is playing the way Pierce did for the Skins. He's still got some in the tank.

Ward
09-21-2007, 02:30 PM
Why wouldn't you take injury into account? You said he outperformed Eli. How?

If you want to change you stance into now saying "he would do better".... well, now we're talking hypotheticals. ...and anyone can say anything without much clout.

He outperformed Manning while on the field, in addition to my hypothetical. If you don't like it that I add "while on the field" then quit loving on Clinton Portis.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:37 PM
He outperformed Manning while on the field, in addition to my hypothetical. If you don't like it that I add "while on the field" then quit loving on Clinton Portis.
Well, I don't see the outperformance, but whatevers, I don't really care. Eli is just the lesser evil, imo.

If you had asked me to rank the RBs last year or the year before, Portis wouldn't have been at the top. He'd be near the bottom. My rankings are based on the present and they will as we go throughout the year. Right now Portis is healthy and is running hard. Westbrook hasn't even had a TD behind the best OL in the division. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt by ranking him above Barber.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:41 PM
Im not too big on Dallas's ILBs. Theyre good, very solid. But theres no stud in the middle of that core. Yes they have depth, but you naturally have more depth in the LB core when you run a 3-4.

I like James, I like Ayodele. Burnett needs to stay healthy. I have to admit, Carpenter isn't working out right now. There really isn't a markee guy there in the middle.

Fletcher is playing the way Pierce did for the Skins. He's still got some in the tank.
Well whether or not they "naturally" have more depth because of the system... it's still better.

I'm in agreement that neither James or Ayodele are those elite MLB types.. like an Urlacher, Lewis, heck... they're not even a Bruschi. They are effective however, and they don't do much wrong per say. The playmaking is lacking, but they are steady and they play to their potential. Burnett is a guy that yes, needs to stay healthy, but his ceiling is higher than James and Ayodele. So is Carps. Playing time is tough right now, but between Burnett and Carp I think we could have a "marquee" guy there.

Ward
09-21-2007, 02:42 PM
Well, I don't see the outperformance, but whatevers, I don't really care. Eli is just the lesser evil, imo.

If you had asked me to rank the RBs last year or the year before, Portis wouldn't have been at the top. He'd be near the bottom. My rankings are based on the present and they will as we go throughout the year. Right now Portis is healthy and is running hard. Westbrook hasn't even had a TD behind the best OL in the division. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt by ranking him above Barber.

And the best QB in the division has only thrown 1 TD in that same offense, you think that indicates talent?

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:44 PM
And the best QB in the division has only thrown 1 TD in that same offense, you think that indicates talent?
Best QB according to whom? I have Romo #1 hands down right now.

Ward
09-21-2007, 02:46 PM
Best QB according to whom? I have Romo #1 hands down right now.

We're like oil and water.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 02:51 PM
We're like oil and water.
Sorry pal, nothing personal.

I do think of myself as the oil since I rise to the top though. haha. ;) :D

Sniper
09-21-2007, 04:58 PM
Best QB according to whom? I have Romo #1 hands down right now.

And you being a Cowboys fan clearly has nothing to do with that, right?

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 05:02 PM
And you being a Cowboys fan clearly has nothing to do with that, right?
I think I was objective enough in my comments and fair across the board. Two games into the season, Romo has been the best QB in our division. Wanna contest that? Man up.

If I was being a homer, Marion Barber would not be ranked #3 in my rankings.

Sniper
09-21-2007, 05:07 PM
I think I was objective enough in my comments and fair across the board. Two games into the season, Romo has been the best QB in our division. Wanna contest that? Man up.

If I was being a homer, Marion Barber would not be ranked #3 in my rankings.

Chill dude I wasn't mocking you I was straightforwardly asking you. No sarcasm, just a question.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 05:16 PM
Chill dude I wasn't mocking you I was straightforwardly asking you. No sarcasm, just a question.
I'm chill. I just like to get into arguments that I know I can win. Just being straight forward. No sarcasm. ;)

McBain
09-21-2007, 05:42 PM
So i don't know how the rankings should go... as far as talent i think it would be

1 McNabb
2 Rhomo
3 Campbell
4 Manning

As far as the season so far

1 Rhomo
2 Manning
3 McNabb
4 Campbell

I don't think the Rhomo run is not going to last. In fact, i think he's going to do not so well against Bears which is the first real test for the cowgirls.

Manning has done good considering the circumstances in NY... i think he'll probably end up having the worst season of the 4 though.

McNabble hasn't looked very good so far but his team is on the way down... last year was there last gasp... but he's still the best QB in the division.

Campbell is good but he didn't play well against the Phins... and was only average against the iggles. I hope this game against the weak Giants secondary can be his breakout game.

RBs

Portis - Westbrook -uno
barber - 3

everyone else.

D-Unit
09-21-2007, 07:13 PM
So i don't know how the rankings should go... as far as talent i think it would be

1 McNabb
2 Rhomo
3 Campbell
4 Manning

As far as the season so far

1 Rhomo
2 Manning
3 McNabb
4 Campbell

I don't think the Rhomo run is not going to last. In fact, i think he's going to do not so well against Bears which is the first real test for the cowgirls.

Manning has done good considering the circumstances in NY... i think he'll probably end up having the worst season of the 4 though.

McNabble hasn't looked very good so far but his team is on the way down... last year was there last gasp... but he's still the best QB in the division.

Campbell is good but he didn't play well against the Phins... and was only average against the iggles. I hope this game against the weak Giants secondary can be his breakout game.

RBs

Portis - Westbrook -uno
barber - 3

everyone else.
Some posters don't understand. Once you start with the name calling and disrespect, everything you say becomes immature, irrelevant and worthless. I stopped reading after the first sentence. But hey, at least you wasted your time typing up a bunch of whatever it is you call it. McBain, welcome to my Ignore List.

McBain
09-21-2007, 07:22 PM
Some posters don't understand. Once you start with the name calling and disrespect, everything you say becomes immature, irrelevant and worthless. I stopped reading after the first sentence. But hey, at least you wasted your time typing up a bunch of whatever it is you call it. McBain, welcome to my Ignore List.

http://www.johnsonsbaby.ca/en/images/products/babyshampoo_main.jpg

I'm sorry, did i huwt you feewings?

Paul
09-21-2007, 09:25 PM
Give him a break D. I mean he actually figured out that Romo rhymed with H.omo. Genius. Because, I've never heard that before, and I mean never. He should be proud of being so observant. This could well be the highlight and pinnacle of his intellectual being, so just let him slide. Romo and H.omo. Ha, it's just so clever.

McBain
09-22-2007, 12:04 AM
Give him a break D. I mean he actually figured out that Romo rhymed with H.omo. Genius. Because, I've never heard that before, and I mean never. He should be proud of being so observant. This could well be the highlight and pinnacle of his intellectual being, so just let him slide. Romo and H.omo. Ha, it's just so clever.

If it's so not clever and stupid... then why are you making such a huge deal about it? Seriously, boo ******* hoo :'(

bigbluedefense
09-22-2007, 12:06 AM
Its nice to see the Skins fans come back. They add some spice. Theyve been waiting 10 months for this moment, lol.

McBain
09-22-2007, 12:32 AM
Its nice to see the Skins fans come back. They add some spice. Theyve been waiting 10 months for this moment, lol.

I've been here the whole time. But thank you for the spice comment... i like to think of myself as a veritable spicy mcchicken... or maybe the ranch blt. They are both delicious but have that kick. But that's what i would be if i had to define myself on mcdonalds menu. Now if were talking BK.... i'm thinking texas double whopper.

fryman
09-22-2007, 04:31 PM
I doN'T think the Rhomo run is NOT going to last.

So you think "Rhomo" (don't know why you spelled it that way, it would still be pronounced the same) is going to continue playing well? great to hear!

McBain
09-22-2007, 05:59 PM
So you think "Rhomo" (don't know why you spelled it that way, it would still be pronounced the same) is going to continue playing well? great to hear!

Yes, but i'm enunciating the h... even if i wasn't, it's how it looks as well. Just a typo... i wrote it all pretty quickly.... but the meaning is still pretty obvious. Whatever i guess.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-27-2007, 03:45 PM
OK Next set of rankings, here we go:

FB's:
-Mike Sellers
-Robert Douglas
-Oliver Hoyt
-Thomas Tapeh

My rankings:
1) Mike Sellers: No doubt no question, beastliest FB in the league in my opinion. Crushing Blocker, and Short yardage runner, the most money redzone receiving threat of all FB's in the league.
2) Thomas Tapeh:Solid All around FB
3) Oliver Hoyt:Who Cares
4) Robert Douglas:Who Cares

WR's:
-Kevin Curtis
-Reggie Brown
-Santana Moss
-Antwaan Randle El
-TO
-Terry Glenn
-Plaxico Burress
-Amani Toomer

My Rankings
1) TO- No question, TD machine, physically dominant, inconsistent hands.
2) Plaxico Burress- Still hasn't lived up to his physical talents, but he is a huge vertical threat, big strong guy who grabs the high balls.
3) Santana Moss- Is a pro bowl level player with inconsistent QB play, is 10x better against NFC East opponents basically torching all of the teams. Most explosive wideout in the division, best deep ball receiver, negatives are at times lapses in concentration on the shorter passes, not a redzone jumpball threat, tries to block and go down the middle but physical deficiencies hold him back.
4) Amani Toomer-A solid vet who can still play ball.
5) Terry Glenn-Speedy vet, has yet to play this season. Has shown the real ability this season to step up and be a real #2 wideout. Has much more value in trick plays and returning punts.
6) Antwaan Randle El- Most dynamic receiver in the division.
7) Kevin Curtis-Was huge last week with Donovan but up to that didn't really do anything, physical capabilities will always hold him back as an average receiver.
8) Reggie Brown-Great physical tools and showed last year in glimpses of being great, but is highly inconsistent and has been invisible this year dropping many passes.

TE's:
-Jason Witten
-Jeremy Shockey
-Chris Cooley
-LJ Smith

That list would probably be my rankings.

scottyboy
09-27-2007, 03:49 PM
I agree with basically all the rankings. The giants right now dont use a FB at all. Hedgecock is our main blocker though. Douglas doesnt play much, and BJ/RD take the short yardage carries.

I'm glad somebody appreciates Toomer as much as Giants fans do. vastly under rated IMO.

Now SHockey and Witten are a toss up at #1 TE spot. My homerism gives it to Shockey, but it could go either way

Jughead10
09-27-2007, 04:15 PM
I agree with basically all the rankings. The giants right now dont use a FB at all. Hedgecock is our main blocker though. Douglas doesnt play much, and BJ/RD take the short yardage carries.

I'm glad somebody appreciates Toomer as much as Giants fans do. vastly under rated IMO.

Now SHockey and Witten are a toss up at #1 TE spot. My homerism gives it to Shockey, but it could go either way

Shockey is physically superior to Witten in every way. I'd even say he is now even a better blocker. The only reason they are close and a toss up is Shockey's laspes in concentration which Witten doesn't have.

D-Unit
09-28-2007, 09:51 AM
Shockey is physically superior to Witten in every way. I'd even say he is now even a better blocker. The only reason they are close and a toss up is Shockey's laspes in concentration which Witten doesn't have.
When it comes to on field performance... which is all that should matter... Witten trumps Shockey so far this year. Who cares who's physically superior if it doesn't show up on the field? ...and no... Shockey's blocking is not better. OMG.

Jughead10
09-28-2007, 09:54 AM
When it comes to on field performance... which is all that should matter... Witten trumps Shockey so far this year. Who cares who's physically superior if it doesn't show up on the field? ...and no... Shockey's blocking is not better. OMG.

The on field performance isn't that far apart this year. Especially considering Witten got to torch our defensive secondary which is terrible. At one point Shockey's blocking wasn't better, but I suggest you re-evaluate it. Shockey is almost a downright dominate blocker now.

Number 10
09-28-2007, 10:00 AM
D-Unit-

I love Shockey's intensity and what he brings to the field week in and week out. However, there are so many antics I have started to get fed up with and I have even had thoughts of what we could get in a trade for him because sometimes I feel he just isn't worth it.

But in terms of evaluating his play...he is a better blocker than Witten. Gilbride keeps him into block so often now and it used to drive me buts because I thought he should be out there running routes. But I have put the eyeball on him and his blocking and he has been tossing defensive linemen around like nothing. The guy puts on muscle weight every year (I think he's close to 260 now even though Giants.com has 251)....hes just such a beast.

I actually think Shockey has passed Witten as a blocker but Witten actually might be on his way to passing Shockey as a receiver. Just an observation.

bigbluedefense
09-28-2007, 10:49 AM
When it comes to on field performance... which is all that should matter... Witten trumps Shockey so far this year. Who cares who's physically superior if it doesn't show up on the field? ...and no... Shockey's blocking is not better. OMG.

Id say at this point, theyre equal blockers. Seriously, people are vastly underrating how good Shockey has become as a blocker. He's seriously become a very very good blocker over the years. People just ignore that part of his game because he hates doing it, and he's known as a passcatcher.

As far as pass catching goes, Shockey is better. Witten plays the 2 TE offense, its designed around him. In our offense, Shockey is basically a decoy, designed to pull the safety for the WRs. He barely gets any plays called for him. But he still puts up very good numbers.

And you know Im a huge fan of Witten, Ive stated it lots of times, but honestly, if I had to choose who I would rather have, Id take Shockey.

Witten does have better hands though and better concentration. But he doesn't stretch the field as well as Shockey. I just think with a different offensive scheme, Shockey can put up way better numbers than he is right now. But I love Witten too. Right now if I were to rate TEs in the league, I have them like this.

1. Gates
2. Winslow
3. Gonzalez (tenior, although he could slip out of the 3 spot soon)
4. Shockey
5. Witten

Achilles33
09-29-2007, 01:06 PM
On the field performance is all that matters, and Witten is spanking Shockey right now.

And as for physical tools, Shockey is far superior? Keep smoking that pipe buddy. Witten is definetly bigger and stronger, you can't even tell yourself when your drunk that Shockey isn't a bit** about getting hit. Also just look at them on the field, Witten is huge compared to him. Witten also has better hands. Shockey isn't even that much faster either. Witten is definitly the better TE as of right now. Also, Shockey can be a cancer in the locker and a little cry baby, Witten is a class act and a team leader.

Homerism aside, it's a pretty easy decision for me. Witten.

scottyboy
09-29-2007, 01:12 PM
On the field performance is all that matters, and Witten is spanking Shockey right now.

And as for physical tools, Shockey is far superior? Keep smoking that pipe buddy. Witten is definetly bigger and stronger, you can't even tell yourself when your drunk that Shockey isn't a bit** about getting hit. Also just look at them on the field, Witten is huge compared to him. Witten also has better hands. Shockey isn't even that much faster either. Witten is definitly the better TE as of right now. Also, Shockey can be a cancer in the locker and a little cry baby, Witten is a class act and a team leader.

Homerism aside, it's a pretty easy decision for me. Witten.


yes, because a biznatch would never run through 4 defenders helmetless to pick up a 1st in a playoff game.

please just stop...

Jughead10
10-01-2007, 07:49 AM
On the field performance is all that matters, and Witten is spanking Shockey right now.

And as for physical tools, Shockey is far superior? Keep smoking that pipe buddy. Witten is definetly bigger and stronger, you can't even tell yourself when your drunk that Shockey isn't a bit** about getting hit. Also just look at them on the field, Witten is huge compared to him. Witten also has better hands. Shockey isn't even that much faster either. Witten is definitly the better TE as of right now. Also, Shockey can be a cancer in the locker and a little cry baby, Witten is a class act and a team leader.

Homerism aside, it's a pretty easy decision for me. Witten.

Did you see Shockey roll over Roy Williams week 1? You can say a million things about Shockey if you want, but being a bit** about getting hit just isn't one of them. Sometimes I almost wish he would stray away from contact because he looks for it too much.

Sniper
10-01-2007, 08:23 AM
Did you see Shockey roll over Roy Williams week 1? You can say a million things about Shockey if you want, but being a bit** about getting hit just isn't one of them. Sometimes I almost wish he would stray away from contact because he looks for it too much.

I want Shockey on the Eagles so badly. The guy's is a ******* truck and plays his ass off every game. Shockey may be a lot of things, but a ***** isn't one of them.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 12:08 PM
On the field performance is all that matters, and Witten is spanking Shockey right now.

And as for physical tools, Shockey is far superior? Keep smoking that pipe buddy. Witten is definetly bigger and stronger, you can't even tell yourself when your drunk that Shockey isn't a bit** about getting hit. Also just look at them on the field, Witten is huge compared to him. Witten also has better hands. Shockey isn't even that much faster either. Witten is definitly the better TE as of right now. Also, Shockey can be a cancer in the locker and a little cry baby, Witten is a class act and a team leader.

Homerism aside, it's a pretty easy decision for me. Witten.

Posts like this is the reason why no one respects what you say.

D-Unit
10-01-2007, 02:35 PM
Is it the coaching?

I'm not sure what the problem is with the Giants getting Shockey involved more. When people talk about him, they mention he's a good pass catcher, he stretches the field, runs over would be tacklers... so what's going on this year? Why isn't he involved more. He skipped going to Miami to train during the offseason to build more chemistry with Eli, but so far the results aren't showing.

In a lot of ways, Shockey is the Giants version of Roy Williams...still living off his rookie year highlights and overrated by fans of his team. A highlight here and there keeps his hype alive, but consistent production is a problem.

Shockey has been a huge let down this year so far and he's killin' my fantasy team. :( The Giants have been having a down year, but the offense has still been putting points on the board. It's just that Shockey isn't apart of the equation much and when he has been targeted, he's dropped some key catches. I'm not sure using him as a decoy is the smartest thing for your offense.

Sniper
10-01-2007, 02:48 PM
I just realized that was Achilles/Tnew..Glad to see he's back and more homerism than ever

SeanTaylorRIP
10-01-2007, 03:00 PM
OK time for the real debate to start, NFC East Safety Rankings:

-Brian Dawkins
-Sean Consadine
-Sean Taylor
-LaRon Landry
-Roy Williams
-Ken Hamlin
-Gibril Wilson

1) Sean Taylor-Yeah I did it, shoot me for it. ST has taken the next step this year, after having slimmed down 10 pounds in the offseason. He is still the biggest hitter and elite against the run, but now is agile and an above average cover safety in the league. He has yet to be beaten deep all season long. He is making plays all over and covering wideouts 1 on 1 with good success. His worst play this season was a play in which Plaxico juked him on an open field tackle, but other than that flawless play.
2) Brian Dawkins-Still a huge hitter, not as good in coverage, old, injured.
3) Gibril Wilson-I really think he would be a very very good safety if he had someone playing beside him.
4) Roy Williams
5) Ken Hamlin
6) Laron Landry-Could be higher on the list but is a rookie. A tackling machine and blitzing specialist, has not been challenged this year deep yet.
7) Sean Consadine-Solid

Sniper
10-01-2007, 03:05 PM
OK time for the real debate to start, NFC East Safety Rankings:

-Brian Dawkins
-Sean Consadine
-Sean Taylor
-LaRon Landry
-Roy Williams
-Ken Hamlin
-Gibril Wilson

1) Sean Taylor-Yeah I did it, shoot me for it. ST has taken the next step this year, after having slimmed down 10 pounds in the offseason. He is still the biggest hitter and elite against the run, but now is agile and an above average cover safety in the league. He has yet to be beaten deep all season long. He is making plays all over and covering wideouts 1 on 1 with good success. His worst play this season was a play in which Plaxico juked him on an open field tackle, but other than that flawless play.
2) Brian Dawkins-Still a huge hitter, not as good in coverage, old, injured.
3) Gibril Wilson-I really think he would be a very very good safety if he had someone playing beside him.
4) Roy Williams
5) Ken Hamlin
6) Laron Landry-Could be higher on the list but is a rookie. A tackling machine and blitzing specialist, has not been challenged this year deep yet.
7) Sean Consadine-Solid


Them be fightin' words, putting Taylor ahead of Dawkins.

1. Brian Dawkins. He's the best. Great in coverage, not always amazing against the run but does a good enough job. Huge hitter, but he is climbing in age.
2 or 1A really. Sean Taylor. As our Ghettorific homie pointed out, he's covering much better and he's excellent against the run. He looks MUCH faster than last year and is poised to take over Dawkins.
3. Gibril Wilson. Vastly underrated. An excellent safety who consistently flies under the radar.
4. LaRon Landry. Better in coverage than Roy Williams, which to me is really what seperates them.
5. Roy Williams. Essentially a undersized linebacker. Brutal in pass coverage, but huge near the line of scrimmage.
6. Ken Hamlin. Essentially the same as Roy, but slightly better in pass, slightly worse in run.
7. Sean Considine. Much better so far than last year, added bulk has helped. Poised to slide over to FS when Dawkins retires.

Jughead10
10-01-2007, 03:08 PM
I love how our other safety isn't even mentioned. You rank the safeties 1-7.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 03:11 PM
Is it the coaching?

I'm not sure what the problem is with the Giants getting Shockey involved more. When people talk about him, they mention he's a good pass catcher, he stretches the field, runs over would be tacklers... so what's going on this year? Why isn't he involved more. He skipped going to Miami to train during the offseason to build more chemistry with Eli, but so far the results aren't showing.

In a lot of ways, Shockey is the Giants version of Roy Williams...still living off his rookie year highlights and overrated by fans of his team. A highlight here and there keeps his hype alive, but consistent production is a problem.

Shockey has been a huge let down this year so far and he's killin' my fantasy team. :( The Giants have been having a down year, but the offense has still been putting points on the board. It's just that Shockey isn't apart of the equation much and when he has been targeted, he's dropped some key catches. I'm not sure using him as a decoy is the smartest thing for your offense.

I actually think our Roy Williams is Gibril Wilson. He's also overrated by many Giants, and living off his reputation from his rookie year. I don't find him to be anything special at all, but many Giant fans believe he can recapture that 8 game span of dominance from his rookie year. *shrug*

By my count, Shockey's # was called 3 times last night. One was caught for 18 yards, one was incomplete, the other an INT. The man can produce, but Coughlin just isn't a TE guy.

He uses Shockey for the most part to pull the coverage, and open up the WRs. Thats how this offense runs. Its a WR offense. I don't agree with it, but thats just how it is.

I do agree that he drops some balls, and is not taking advantage of the few times his number is called, but I also believe that if he gets his number called more, he can have much better numbers. Sending him deep to pull the safety on every play isn't the best way to utilize him imo. And he's doing an awful lot of blocking this year to help out Diehl.

Consistency is definately a problem, and he does have to work on his hands. But even with that, there really aren't many TEs out there that are better. If you want to put Witten ahead, you can, I won't necessarily argue with it, but other than him, Gonzalez, Gates, and Winslow, would you take anyone else over Shockey? I wouldn't. And being top 5 at your position isn't too shabby.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 03:17 PM
wow, Im surprised at how you guys are ranking Wilson so far. Honestly, I don't see it, maybe Im just in the minority. *shrug*


If we're basing these rankings off this year only, you put Taylor at 1A and Dawkins at 1B, because Taylor has been lights out thus far. But overall, its hard for me to not put Dawkins at 1. The man's resume speaks for itself.

Number 10
10-01-2007, 03:29 PM
I love how our other safety isn't even mentioned. You rank the safeties 1-7.

We don't have another safety. That's why we got lit up int he first 2 weeks, we only had 10 players on the field.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 03:30 PM
We don't have another safety. That's why we got lit up int he first 2 weeks, we only had 10 players on the field.

Actually with McQuarters out there covering their #1 WR, and Webster covering their #2, it was more like 8....

D-Unit
10-01-2007, 04:00 PM
I actually think our Roy Williams is Gibril Wilson. He's also overrated by many Giants, and living off his reputation from his rookie year. I don't find him to be anything special at all, but many Giant fans believe he can recapture that 8 game span of dominance from his rookie year. *shrug*

By my count, Shockey's # was called 3 times last night. One was caught for 18 yards, one was incomplete, the other an INT. The man can produce, but Coughlin just isn't a TE guy.

He uses Shockey for the most part to pull the coverage, and open up the WRs. Thats how this offense runs. Its a WR offense. I don't agree with it, but thats just how it is.

I do agree that he drops some balls, and is not taking advantage of the few times his number is called, but I also believe that if he gets his number called more, he can have much better numbers. Sending him deep to pull the safety on every play isn't the best way to utilize him imo. And he's doing an awful lot of blocking this year to help out Diehl.

Consistency is definately a problem, and he does have to work on his hands. But even with that, there really aren't many TEs out there that are better. If you want to put Witten ahead, you can, I won't necessarily argue with it, but other than him, Gonzalez, Gates, and Winslow, would you take anyone else over Shockey? I wouldn't. And being top 5 at your position isn't too shabby.
Sounds similar to Jason Witten last year. He was asked to block a lot more and was often decoy boy.

D-Unit
10-01-2007, 04:15 PM
OK time for the real debate to start, NFC East Safety Rankings:

-Brian Dawkins
-Sean Consadine
-Sean Taylor
-LaRon Landry
-Roy Williams
-Ken Hamlin
-Gibril Wilson

1) Sean Taylor-Yeah I did it, shoot me for it. ST has taken the next step this year, after having slimmed down 10 pounds in the offseason. He is still the biggest hitter and elite against the run, but now is agile and an above average cover safety in the league. He has yet to be beaten deep all season long. He is making plays all over and covering wideouts 1 on 1 with good success. His worst play this season was a play in which Plaxico juked him on an open field tackle, but other than that flawless play.
2) Brian Dawkins-Still a huge hitter, not as good in coverage, old, injured.
3) Gibril Wilson-I really think he would be a very very good safety if he had someone playing beside him.
4) Roy Williams
5) Ken Hamlin
6) Laron Landry-Could be higher on the list but is a rookie. A tackling machine and blitzing specialist, has not been challenged this year deep yet.
7) Sean Consadine-Solid

1. Sean Taylor - Haven't watched him at all this year yet, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt of being the top S in the division.

2. Ken Hamlin - He's put together a nice string of games here and is really starting to emerge as one of the best players on Dallas' defense. He's shown to be a ball hawk and perfect fit in Phillips' defense.

3. Roy Williams - He's still producing at a Pro Bowl level. Hasn't given up any big plays this year yet.

4. LaRon Landry - Playing pretty well for a rookie. Has made some highlights, but still needs to progress.

5. Gibril Wilson - Seeing a lot of action his way. Not a good thing.

6. Sean Consadine - Glad he's not a starter for Dallas. He's serviceable, but mistake prone.

7. Brian Dawkins - Call it age, call it hard luck... he's not on the field, so Dawkins can't be rated any higher. He's had a hell of a career. Hopefully it doesn't end like this.

Sniper
10-01-2007, 04:25 PM
1. Sean Taylor - Haven't watched him at all this year yet, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt of being the top S in the division.

2. Ken Hamlin - He's put together a nice string of games here and is really starting to emerge as one of the best players on Dallas' defense. He's shown to be a ball hawk and perfect fit in Phillips' defense.

3. Roy Williams - He's still producing at a Pro Bowl level. Hasn't given up any big plays this year yet.

4. LaRon Landry - Playing pretty well for a rookie. Has made some highlights, but still needs to progress.

5. Gibril Wilson - Seeing a lot of action his way. Not a good thing.

6. Sean Consadine - Glad he's not a starter for Dallas. He's serviceable, but mistake prone.

7. Brian Dawkins - Call it age, call it hard luck... he's not on the field, so Dawkins can't be rated any higher. He's had a hell of a career. Hopefully it doesn't end like this.

Pretty sure Dawk missed two games out of 4. So he's been on the field to be graded. Hamlin and Williams at 2 and 3 is ludicrous.

D-Unit
10-01-2007, 05:11 PM
Pretty sure Dawk missed two games out of 4. So he's been on the field to be graded. Hamlin and Williams at 2 and 3 is ludicrous.
If it's ludicrous, then explain why. My grades are based off of actual play so far this year. Not career history, not potential... now.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-01-2007, 05:19 PM
Punt Returner Rankings

-Reno Mahe
-Antwaan Randle El
-Patrick Crayton??? I think he's the regular punt returner right?
-R.W. McQuarters

1) Antwaan Randle El-Biggest threat to break it every time he touches it, but does too much dancing, it's either a 50 yard return or 5 yard return.
2) Patrick Crayton
3)R.W. McQuarters
4) Reno Mahe-Could be the worst punt returner ever. It is an accomplishment if he doesn't fumble the punt, if he gets 2-5 yards on the return that is just icing on the cake.

Kick Returners
-Tyson Thompson
-Correll Buckhalter
-Rock Cartwright
-Ahmad Bradshaw

1) Rock Carwright
2) Tyson Thompson
3) Ahmad Bradshaw
4) Correll Buckhalter

D-Unit
10-01-2007, 05:22 PM
Punt Returner Rankings

-Reno Mahe
-Antwaan Randle El
-Patrick Crayton??? I think he's the regular punt returner right?
-R.W. McQuarters

1) Antwaan Randle El-Biggest threat to break it every time he touches it, but does too much dancing, it's either a 50 yard return or 5 yard return.
2) Patrick Crayton
3)R.W. McQuarters
4) Reno Mahe-Could be the worst punt returner ever. It is an accomplishment if he doesn't fumble the punt, if he gets 2-5 yards on the return that is just icing on the cake.

Kick Returners
-Tyson Thompson
-Correll Buckhalter
-Rock Cartwright
-Ahmad Bradshaw

1) Rock Carwright
2) Tyson Thompson
3) Ahmad Bradshaw
4) Correll Buckhalter
This is moot as Dallas will have Desean Jackson on returns next year.

scottyboy
10-01-2007, 05:50 PM
DE ratings:

Osi
Osi
Osi
Osi

LSUALUM99
10-01-2007, 08:55 PM
Worst LT in the division? Easily Winston Justice.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-04-2007, 10:53 AM
I think the reason gibril is rated so highly is he was our only db the first two weeks and landry is a rookie. Honestly he's nothing special but that's enough to be better than the Dallas safeties and considine. Disagree with him over landry but once landry gets some more starts he'll move up

As for shockey I think this year has shown him to be a more complete player as his impacting the game without getting the ball, and he's done it with his blocking and running his routes well enough to where teams have to respect him

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-04-2007, 10:57 AM
DE ratings:

Osi
Osi
Osi
Osi

U mean:
osi
osi
tuck
osi
kiwi (the last two games he's played rush backer and used more like a de than an olb)
osi

Sniper
10-04-2007, 11:04 AM
4) Reno Mahe-Could be the worst punt returner ever. It is an accomplishment if he doesn't fumble the punt, if he gets 2-5 yards on the return that is just icing on the cake.



Reno was signed BECAUSE he doesn't fumble. He fair catches too much, but he doesn't fumble and led the league in yards per return last year. So I don't get your reasoning.

Sniper
10-04-2007, 11:05 AM
Worst LT in the division? Easily Winston Justice.

It's a good thing he's not a starter and had his first ever start against an elite DE then right? You really want to match up backups?

Sniper
10-04-2007, 11:06 AM
This is moot as Dallas will have Desean Jackson on returns next year.

How exactly does that impact the question Ghetto brought up?

LonghornsLegend
10-11-2007, 12:15 AM
Originatting back to the first thread, Clinton Portis is the best back in the conference to me because he can do everything, has anyone noticed how good of a blocker he is? He can catch out the backfield, run inside or out, has the 5th gear, he just hasnt been able to stop getting nicked up...

I give him the nod over westy, just slightly, because portis can do everything pretty damn good, and if they were interested in making him a feature back he could put up huge numbers...


only thing that seperates Barber out of that class of those 2 is his top end speed, everything else I can argue that he does just as good as every other back in the conference...


as far as safeties Hamlin is getting ranked pretty low, but thats fine...he does so much for our D its not even funny, hope we keep him around...

Sniper
10-11-2007, 12:22 AM
Originatting back to the first thread, Clinton Portis is the best back in the conference to me because he can do everything, has anyone noticed how good of a blocker he is? He can catch out the backfield, run inside or out, has the 5th gear, he just hasnt been able to stop getting nicked up...

I give him the nod over westy, just slightly, because portis can do everything pretty damn good, and if they were interested in making him a feature back he could put up huge numbers...


only thing that seperates Barber out of that class of those 2 is his top end speed, everything else I can argue that he does just as good as every other back in the conference...




A) How do you give Portis the nod ahead of Westbrook saying he "can do everything pretty damn good"? Do you not know what Westbrook does?
B) And the fact that he hasn't proved he's anything more than a situational back (Barber) He's not as good a receiver as Westbrook or Portis.

Turtlepower
10-11-2007, 12:26 AM
A) How do you give Portis the nod ahead of Westbrook saying he "can do everything pretty damn good"? Do you not know what Westbrook does?
B) And the fact that he hasn't proved he's anything more than a situational back (Barber) He's not as good a receiver as Westbrook or Portis.

I would give Portis the nod because of injury concerns. If they are both healthy, westbrook is a beast, but due to westbrook's injuries, his stock drops. =D

Sniper
10-11-2007, 12:28 AM
I would give Portis the nod because of injury concerns. If they are both healthy, westbrook is a beast, but due to westbrook's injuries, his stock drops. =D

But Portis has been injured too.

Turtlepower
10-11-2007, 12:29 AM
But Portis has been injured too.

But not this year so far... As of this year, it is Portis. As of the last century, Westbrook. If Portis goes down tomorrow, I give it to Westbrook. You see my lack of logic?

Sniper
10-11-2007, 12:32 AM
But not this year so far... As of this year, it is Portis. As of the last century, Westbrook. If Portis goes down tomorrow, I give it to Westbrook. You see my lack of logic?

It's not so much a lack of logic as a testament to both players as to how good they are, IMO.

LonghornsLegend
10-11-2007, 09:53 AM
A) How do you give Portis the nod ahead of Westbrook saying he "can do everything pretty damn good"? Do you not know what Westbrook does?
B) And the fact that he hasn't proved he's anything more than a situational back (Barber) He's not as good a receiver as Westbrook or Portis.

yes im aware of what westbrook does, but I dont think thats a knock putting portis over him...portis is a better blocker, a more tough runner, does it inside and outside, and is a pretty damn good receiver out of the backfield, of course there are things westy does better, but i think portis is more complete and if i had to take one back in my backfield i would rather have a healthy portis over a healthy westbrook, just my opinion though not as if it really means Portis is definately the better back


and Barber is just as good of a receiver as portis or westbrook, he's not as explosive as westbrook is or making people miss, but he catches pretty much everything, knows how to turn and get up field, and gets those tough yards after the catch...im not really one for the whole "he hasnt proved anything" argument, he gets his chances on the field and does everything you could ask a back to do, and does it really well...No he's not better then westbrook or portis yet, but I do think he's as good of a receiver as those 2, and he does things better then some of those 2 as well...

Sniper
10-11-2007, 09:55 AM
yes im aware of what westbrook does, but I dont think thats a knock putting portis over him...portis is a better blocker, a more tough runner, does it inside and outside, and is a pretty damn good receiver out of the backfield, of course there are things westy does better, but i think portis is more complete and if i had to take one back in my backfield i would rather have a healthy portis over a healthy westbrook, just my opinion though not as if it really means Portis is definately the better back


and Barber is just as good of a receiver as portis or westbrook, he's not as explosive as westbrook is or making people miss, but he catches pretty much everything, knows how to turn and get up field, and gets those tough yards after the catch...im not really one for the whole "he hasnt proved anything" argument, he gets his chances on the field and does everything you could ask a back to do, and does it really well...No he's not better then westbrook or portis yet, but I do think he's as good of a receiver as those 2, and he does things better then some of those 2 as well...

Let me rephrase my receiver point. He hasn't done as much as Westbrook or Portis. While a very competent receiver, he doesn't possess the same type of open field elusiveness.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-11-2007, 10:07 AM
Let me rephrase my receiver point. He hasn't done as much as Westbrook or Portis. While a very competent receiver, he doesn't possess the same type of open field elusiveness.

Neither does shockey or anquan boldin, but getting a physical runner in space really isn't much less effective, personally I'm a big fan of Marion the Barbarian

MaddHatter
10-11-2007, 10:13 AM
QB's:
1 - McNabb (when healthy)
1b - Romo
3 - Manning
3b - Campbell

RB's:
1 - Westbrook
2 - Portis
3 - Barber
4 - Jacobs
5 - Jones
6 - Betts

TE's:
1 - Witten
2 - Cooley
3 - Shockey
4 - Smith

WR's:
1 - Owens
2 - Burress
3 - Glenn
4 - Moss
5 - Crayton
6 - Brown

Canadian_draft_fan
10-11-2007, 10:23 AM
QB's:
1 - McNabb (when healthy)
1b - Romo
3 - Manning
3b - Campbell

RB's:
1 - Westbrook
2 - Portis
3 - Barber
4 - Jacobs
5 - Jones
6 - Betts

TE's:
1 - Witten
2 - Cooley
3 - Shockey
4 - Smith

WR's:
1 - Owens
2 - Burress
3 - Glenn
4 - Moss
5 - Crayton
6 - Brown

Let me guess - your a Philly fan. Your WRs - Brown over Randel El?!?! Please.

MaddHatter
10-11-2007, 10:37 AM
Let me guess - your a Philly fan. Your WRs - Brown over Randel El?!?! Please.

Dallas fan actually

Canadian_draft_fan
10-11-2007, 11:03 AM
Dallas fan actually

OK. Fair enough - my mistake. And further to your WR ranking - Crayton & Randel El are very close statistically on '07 so I wouldn't say Crayton is head & shoulders above Randel El. You can make a case for Crayton ranked over him but I can make a case for the reverse.

MaddHatter
10-11-2007, 11:06 AM
OK. Fair enough - my mistake. And further to your WR ranking - Crayton & Randel El are very close statistically on '07 so I wouldn't say Crayton is head & shoulders above Randel El. You can make a case for Crayton ranked over him but I can make a case for the reverse.

Quite honestly, I have only seen 3 Skins games, and none led me to believe that Randel El could dominate as a #2 in the NFL - though statistically you're right, they are pretty close

Canadian_draft_fan
10-11-2007, 11:13 AM
Quite honestly, I have only seen 3 Skins games, and none led me to believe that Randel El could dominate as a #2 in the NFL - though statistically you're right, they are pretty close

The Miami & Detroit games convinced me he is a good #2. I realize Detroit has a poor secondary but he caught 7 for 100yds in one half without the presence of Moss. Crayton's big game came against a poor St. Louis secondary and he had the benefit of having T.O. on the field. I'm not sure I'd call Crayton a dominant #2 either.

Honestly, if the Skins had a big bodied WR as a #2 Randel El would be very effective as a slot reciever. He is developing excellent chemistry with Campbell so he will probably be the #2 next year as well.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-11-2007, 02:01 PM
QB's:
1 - McNabb (when healthy)
1b - Romo
3 - Manning
3b - Campbell

RB's:
1 - Westbrook
2 - Portis
3 - Barber
4 - Jacobs
5 - Jones
6 - Betts

TE's:
1 - Witten
2 - Cooley
3 - Shockey
4 - Smith

WR's:
1 - Owens
2 - Burress
3 - Glenn
4 - Moss
5 - Crayton
6 - Brown

No way at this point in his career is Glenn better than Moss and Reggie Brown deserves to be on no list, he is absolute trash, his tools and talent are top 5 but on field production he is only the 4th-5th best wideout on his own team.

Sniper
10-11-2007, 02:48 PM
No way at this point in his career is Glenn better than Moss and Reggie Brown deserves to be on no list, he is absolute trash, his tools and talent are top 5 but on field production he is only the 4th-5th best wideout on his own team.

Uh, yes to the first part, no on the second. Ghetto, you actually think Kevin Curtis, Jason Avant, Hank Baskett and Greg Lewis are better than Brown? I beg to differ.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-11-2007, 03:59 PM
Uh, yes to the first part, no on the second. Ghetto, you actually think Kevin Curtis, Jason Avant, Hank Baskett and Greg Lewis are better than Brown? I beg to differ.

Are you watching the same Reggie Brown that I am??? I'm pretty sure he probably doesn't even have 5 catches this year and he starts every game. He showed flashes last year but this year he is flat out awful, gets no separation on routes and drops balls. Like I said talent and physical tools he's top 5, but on field production he is awful especially this year. No consistency.

skinzzfan25
10-11-2007, 04:12 PM
Are you watching the same Reggie Brown that I am??? I'm pretty sure he probably doesn't even have 5 catches this year and he starts every game. He showed flashes last year but this year he is flat out awful, gets no separation on routes and drops balls. Like I said talent and physical tools he's top 5, but on field production he is awful especially this year. No consistency.

No love for "Downtown" Reggie Brown? :( lol

DMWSackMachine
10-13-2007, 12:30 AM
I'm late to the conversation, but here's my lists with a few thoughts:

QB:

1) McNabb: Not the best this year, but this early in the season you aren't justified in moving a young guy ahead of a perennially elite player.
2) Romo: Has started as well as any QB in NFL history.
4a) Manning: After a superb opening game, has fallen back to his inconsistent ways. Still waiting for him to play up to his ability on a game-to-game, play-to-play basis.
4b) Campbell: We haven't seen him challenged nearly enough to place him in a ranking like this. He kind of reminds me of Phillip Rivers last year, with the impressive start masking the fact that, well, he hasn't done anything. Like what I've seen so far, though.

RB

1) Westbrook: Bill Parcells says that he is the best player in the division. That's enough for me.
2) Portis: No brainer.....or is it? Portis hasn't done anything to deserve the kind of props he gets on NFLDC. In Denver, he looked like a younger, faster version of TD. In Washington, he looks like....an above average RB, and that's it.
3) Barber: see Barbarian, Marion the
4) Betts: Very underrated. His late season stretch last year showed what he could do given the chance. Is obviously a 100% better fit for the offense than Portis is, but politics are preventing him from getting the burn he's earned.
5) Jones: An impressive talent who hasn't gotten the opportunity to be the #1 guy like he should be. I'm in the minority, but I think that with a 20 att/g workload, the guy would break out.
6) Jacobs: Amazing power, questionable durability, and an unprecedented physique for the position. Haven't seen anything to put him higher, but that could change.

TE

1) Witten: Might just have been the best player at any position in the division through the first quarter of the year. An absolute beast of a player. Has blossomed as a blocker, becoming--no exaggeration here--dominant in that area of the game, and with the increased role in the passing game is starting to get the pub he has always deserved.
2) Shockey: I'll give him the slight edge over Cooley, even though I probably shouldn't. An amazing talent that just hasn't quite "clicked" yet.
3) Cooley: Excellent all-around player. A little on the small side to be considered a true TE, or be great as an in-line blocker, but helps to make up for that with his intelligence, grit, and ability to make contact in space.
4) Smith: What does it say when you are one of the top 10 or 12 players at your position in the league, and yet you are the worst in your division? Good player.

WR

TO: All-time great, still playing like he's in his prime.
Glen: I have him here for the same reason that I have McNabb where he is. This guy has perennially been one of the 5 most underrated players in the league, and is an amazing, amazing player in his own right. Should have had a career comparable to Harrison, Moss, TO and Bruce, but off-the-field problems prevented that from happening. Will likely move down by season's end.
Burress: Will likely move up to the 2 spot before long. An amazing start to the season, would benefit from a more consistent effort. I wonder how much the ankle problems have to do with his improved concentration and focus during games.
Moss: Great deep threat and YAC guy, but size limits him in a lot of ways.
Toomer: One of my favorite guys from the past. Has never gotten the recognition he has earned. Probably doesn't deserve to be here for this season, but I'm giving him props anyways.
Crayton: Really coming on in the absence of Glen. Not particularly big or fast, but gets the job done and comes through big in the clutch. Don't know if Washington fans remember, but this is the guy that caught the 45 yard TD pass in the 2nd to last game of 2004 that beat them with under 1:00 in the game.

This division is well above average at every one of the offensive skill positions. Our TEs are just drop-dead bad ass. The only other division in the league that compares with ours at that position is the AFC North. But even then, you could make the contention that the best TE in that division would be no better than 4th in ours (Heap and Winslow are both probably better than Cooley, but its certainly not a hands-down thing)

LonghornsLegend
10-13-2007, 12:38 AM
Eh, im going to give the wr nod to burress over TO...call me crazy, but as of right now at this point, if Burress is focused I think he dominates a game more so then TO does right now, id trust Burress more in the redzone, and I think hes more sure handed and very underrated at running after the catch...Everyone pretty much knows he's going to be the main target in the redzone every week but he gets up and goes and gets the ball, I love that about him...And its pretty wierd this is the best Ive ever seen him play and he has a bad foot...

Shiver
10-13-2007, 03:46 AM
At this point in their careers I think Burress is the superior receiver. Terrell Owens' hands are terrible right now; he led the NFL in drops last year and is the current leader now. Burress is by no means Mr. Consistency either, but he's finally living up to his natural play-making abilities.

robert_in_bigd
10-13-2007, 10:25 AM
If it's ludicrous, then explain why. My grades are based off of actual play so far this year. Not career history, not potential... now.

Well for starters, Roy Williams is playing LB on most passing downs. Watkins and Hamlin are playing Safety.

Hard to call Roy a Safety anymore.

robert_in_bigd
10-13-2007, 10:26 AM
Burress is better than TO.

Jughead10
10-15-2007, 07:45 AM
At this point in their careers I think Burress is the superior receiver. Terrell Owens' hands are terrible right now; he led the NFL in drops last year and is the current leader now. Burress is by no means Mr. Consistency either, but he's finally living up to his natural play-making abilities.

This year I have to attribute his inconsistency in the first halves of games to his ankle. The guy hasn't practiced in almost a month now and just toughs it out on gameday with his ankle. And the Giants are hush hush about how bad in ankle really is. High ankle sprain most likely, that has kept DJ Hackett out since week 1. DJ's is probably worse but Plax still plays through it every week. He needs the bye week more than anyone right now. I'd even consider leaving him in the states for the London game week 9 and give him three weeks to rest before the Cowboys game.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-15-2007, 06:33 PM
I've got no gripe with to over plax, while plax has less drops and more big plays he also leaves more big plays on the field.

What irks me is that people have less respect for shockey when he's showing that he still makes a big impact on games even when they're not throwing it to him. He has taken his blocking to another level and is having a big impact as a decoy. I don't think is even close between shockey and cooley and I think shockey's just a smidgeon above witten but its too close to call.

Paul
10-15-2007, 07:37 PM
Have we done Longsnappers yet?

SeanTaylorRIP
10-15-2007, 07:48 PM
Have we done Longsnappers yet?

Nope but Ethan Albright is the best longsnapper in the league

http://www.oddjack.com/gambling/images/albright_sucks.jpg

Sniper
10-15-2007, 08:17 PM
Nope but Ethan Albright is the best longsnapper in the league

http://www.oddjack.com/gambling/images/albright_sucks.jpg

Madden doesn't seem to think so;)

703SKINS202
10-15-2007, 11:50 PM
i honestly dont know who the best long snapper is but albright is spotless

Paul
10-15-2007, 11:56 PM
Nope but Ethan Albright is the best longsnapper in the league

http://www.oddjack.com/gambling/images/albright_sucks.jpg

I don't know LP Ladouceur is French, so being bent over is pretty natural and innate thing for him.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 07:28 AM
Ryan Kuehl was the best in the business. But he is out for the year.

DMWSackMachine
10-16-2007, 04:08 PM
Very surprising--even given the natural biased viewpoints of division rivals--to see anyone ranking Shockey ahead of Witten. At this point, I really can't see anyone justifying that. I have always preferred Witten, even when Shockey was considered by most fans to be hands-down better, but this year we are actually seeing what Witten is capable of when given free-rein in the offense, and his blocking has reached elite levels. He is killing people in every way. All that you have with Shockey is "Well, if he was in a better scheme..." Here's a look at each of their last 3 seasons in the passing game:

Year........Witten..................Shockey
2006......64-754-11.8-1td......66-623-9.4-7td
2005......66-757-11.5-6td......65-891-13.7-7td
2004......87-980-11.3-6td......61-666-10.9-6td
Avg.....72.3-830-11.5-4.3td....64-727-11.4-6.7td

Witten's best season outstrips or at least matches Shockey's best year with more catches and more yards with just one less TD. Meanwhile, the averages are easily in Witten's favor. The only thing that Shockey has outproduced him in is TDs, and that is only because of last year when TO, Barber and Glenn were hogging all the goal-line targets. Now look at the pace they are on this season:

Witten: 86-1210-11tds
Shockey: 62-781-4tds

I mean, at some point you have to put away your preferences and recognize a clearly better player.

On top of all this, Witten is still--even with Shockey's improvement--a better blocker. Where is the argument?

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 04:12 PM
In all honesty Shockey is the better blocker in my opinion. He dominates and finishes more than any TE out there. As a Dallas fan you should know how scheme with a TE is key. Bledsoe never looked for Witten. Witten's production went up a lot when Romo came in. And now Garrett utlizes him even more. Don't use the weapons excuse in the red zone either with Witten. Giants have had just as much if not more weapons over the last two seasons.

703SKINS202
10-16-2007, 05:57 PM
question for skins fans, would u trade cooley for witten or shockey?

MaddHatter
10-16-2007, 06:08 PM
At this point in their careers I think Burress is the superior receiver. Terrell Owens' hands are terrible right now; he led the NFL in drops last year and is the current leader now. Burress is by no means Mr. Consistency either, but he's finally living up to his natural play-making abilities.

You mean Gator Arms finally manned up over the middle? :eek:

MaddHatter
10-16-2007, 06:10 PM
Have we done DE, DT/NT, OLB or ILB yet?

McBain
10-16-2007, 06:26 PM
question for skins fans, would u trade cooley for witten or shockey?

no............................................... no

703SKINS202
10-16-2007, 07:06 PM
no............................................... no

same here man

Number 10
10-16-2007, 10:09 PM
I'll say this and I'm gonna hate saying it.

But I would take Witten over Shockey right now, no matter what kind of offense I run. Both are very good TEs and make opposing defenses think twice about leaving just a LB or just a safety covering them. But I have seen every game of both teams this season and Witten has overtaken Shockey as an overall TE.

He runs better routes, doesn't drop the ball like Shockey, and suprisingly is better after the catch. All of Shockey's injuries to his lower half over the years have really taken a toll on his explosiveness and Witten has actually surprised me with how explosive his first few steps are with the ball in his hands. Now, could Witten's status be a tad inflated because of a QB that constantly looks his way? Possibly....but I'm not going to use that against him, just isn't fair.

In terms of blocking however DMW, Shockey is better. Not by a wide margin, but the guy has gained close to 25 pounds the past 3 years of brute strength and under Mike Pope has, like Jug said, become an absolutely dominating blocker. It used to drive me crazy how much Shockey was kept in on passing down to block but it makes a little bit more sense now considering his performance in that area.

Now I understand Shockey's past reputation has been as a receiver, but you have to put the eyeball on him. He is man-handling LBs and DEs on a consistent basis, just check out how many times we run the ball outside to his side and what he does to his man. It has surprised me even....Next time you watch the Giants just watch him if you can, and you'll see what I mean. I don't want you to come here and say..."#10 you were right"...that's not the point. Just sit and watch the guy block and I guarantee you will agree with me.

And you guys with the Cooley talk....please

bigbluedefense
10-17-2007, 10:29 AM
#10 is spot on with his evaluation. Everything he said is true.

Im still not sure though if Shockey wouldn't put up better #s if he wasn't such a decoy in our passing attack. I also expect Witten's #s to dip a little with Glenn back in the lineup. But you can't argue with that evaluation.

bigbluedefense
10-17-2007, 10:57 AM
I will say this, if Witten continues his pace then Ill bump him up ahead of Shockey.

But its too small of a sample size to declare him better already. Its 6 games. For the past 3 years, Shockey has been the better overall TE. And thats coming from a Witten fan, Ive been a supporter of his for awhile.

I felt last year he shouldve gotten the ball more, this year he has and the results speak for themselves. But its still too early to declare him better already. Its just 6 games.

Thats like saying Plaxico Burress is better than Owens. Because he has been outperforming him for 6 games. While Plax has definately shown improvement, it would be naive on our part to declare him better than Owens when Owens past track record would say otherwise. 6 games is just 6 games.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-17-2007, 11:43 AM
I completely agree with bbd on this one witten v shockey is too close to call based on 6 games. But shockey has become one of the most dominant blockers to play te and in the past has shown that while he's a less refined receiver he's no less effective. Also I love shockey's obvious passion for the game, he gets a bad rep for calling for the ball but to me it's no different than a great basketball player demanding the ball with the game on the line, he just wants to do whatever he can for the team to win and very often getting the ball in shockey's hands is the best chance we have to win. I'm sure he'd play special teams and defense if we let him.

DMWSackMachine
10-17-2007, 01:15 PM
Listen, just ignore this year and look at past seasons. Witten has a better avg yearly production, he has a better peak season, and he's always been a better blocker.

Then when you show what has happened this year, it finishes off any doubt.

Those are just the numbers. If you want to argue blocking.....it becomes very difficult. Don't think I am undermining Shockey's value as a blocker. I have noticed his improvement from year to year, and he has looked even better this year. I acknowledge all of that. But Witten has the better physique for it, he has always had the mindset of a blocker, something I believe that Shockey has had to learn with time, and he has been better in the past while continually improving. Besides anecdotal evidence, there is very little to support either of our opinions. The closest I can come is what KC Joyner has done with his blocking metrics the past few seasons. He evaluates every blocker both in terms of success % and production in the running game. Witten has continually graded out as the second best overall TE in the league because of his quality blocking combined with his receiving numbers, while placing in the top 5 among all TE in terms of sheer blocking. Take that for WIW, but there is no way you can really make the case that Shockey is a better player now, or in the immediate past.

All that said, I don't think your evaluation is too far off #10. Your point is much more reasonable than the first few Giants fans to chime in, but I am still strongly convinced that Witten is the superior blocker.


But, let's get real here, both players are excellent, and to be not quite as good as Witten (imo, unquestionably the 2nd best TE in the league right now) is no shame.

As for the Cooley homers.....wtf?

D-Unit
10-17-2007, 05:27 PM
I think Witten's #'s could drop significantly. The Patriots have put out a blue print on how to beat the Cowboys and all they did was stop Witten. Now they didn't completely stop him, but they tried their darnedest and were successful for the most part. If teams follow suit, and the Cowboys don't make adjustments, Witten's numbers should return back to normal levels. Cause so far he's been playing out of his mind. Antonio Gates who???

bigbluedefense
10-17-2007, 05:36 PM
I think Witten's #'s could drop significantly. The Patriots have put out a blue print on how to beat the Cowboys and all they did was stop Witten. Now they didn't completely stop him, but they tried their darnedest and were successful for the most part. If teams follow suit, and the Cowboys don't make adjustments, Witten's numbers should return back to normal levels. Cause so far he's been playing out of his mind. Antonio Gates who???

I think the return of Terry Glenn will also lead to a dropoff in #s. Before he got hurt, he was always the #2 option.

Im surprised that Fasano isn't more involved in the pass game. I expected big things out of him, but this year the 2 TE set isn't used as often as last year.

Sniper
10-17-2007, 06:00 PM
I think the return of Terry Glenn will also lead to a dropoff in #s. Before he got hurt, he was always the #2 option.

Im surprised that Fasano isn't more involved in the pass game. I expected big things out of him, but this year the 2 TE set isn't used as often as last year.

Brent Celek>>>>>>>>>all the noobs at TE in the NFC East. ;)

No, but seriously, if you could put Celek's blocking and LJ's offensive production, you would have Jeremy Shockey, who IMO is the best TE in the division. It's really splitting hairs, but Shockey's BAMF move of running through 4 Eagles with no helmet gives him the win. I love players who wear their emotions on their sleeve, and I'd take Shockey on my team any day of the week.

D-Unit
10-17-2007, 06:33 PM
I think the return of Terry Glenn will also lead to a dropoff in #s. Before he got hurt, he was always the #2 option.

Im surprised that Fasano isn't more involved in the pass game. I expected big things out of him, but this year the 2 TE set isn't used as often as last year.
I mentioned in the Boys forum how I thought Fasano should be used more as well. He's the kind of guy that can be a real pest out there. He just needs to cut down on his silly penalties. That irritates me.

Only time he's getting is with Witten on the bench tho... so...

DMWSackMachine
10-18-2007, 11:10 AM
Yeah, I actually think that Fasano can be a star in this league if he gets the chance. He is huge, physical, tough, and athletic with good hands. Last I checked, that's what you want in a TE. I don't understand why we haven't used a ton of 2 TE sets with Terry out. Hurd is a nice developing prospect, but who gives you the better playmaker and matchups, him or Fasano?

I am hoping we can find a way to integrate him, because I am convinced that if he leaves, he will be making several runs at the Pro Bowl. Plus, we spent a premium pick on him when we could have had Marcus McNeill instead. We need him to produce for us.

Gribble
10-18-2007, 11:00 PM
I think Witten's #'s could drop significantly. The Patriots have put out a blue print on how to beat the Cowboys and all they did was stop Witten. Now they didn't completely stop him, but they tried their darnedest and were successful for the most part. If teams follow suit, and the Cowboys don't make adjustments, Witten's numbers should return back to normal levels. Cause so far he's been playing out of his mind. Antonio Gates who???

D, I disagree with your point of "the Patriots have put out a blue print on how to beat the Cowboys and all they did was stop Witten". Not plausible, man. They scored 48 points, went something like 12-17 on third downs, and we had 12 penalties- and you're saying how they shut down Witten was the way to beat us? I don't see your reasoning here.

McBain
10-18-2007, 11:43 PM
And you guys with the Cooley talk....please

i would take cooley over both those foolio's. have you seen his legs?

Number 10
10-19-2007, 09:13 AM
i would take cooley over both those foolio's. have you seen his legs?

I honestly can't even think you're being serious, therefore I don't want to waste my time talking about this.

703SKINS202
10-19-2007, 01:18 PM
I honestly can't even think you're being serious, therefore I don't want to waste my time talking about this.


well, lets see here

shockeys best season came in 2005 lets compare those to cooleys


jeremy drop-ey:
2005 NY Giants 15 65 891 7

Cooley:

2005 Washington16 71 774 7



ummmmmmmm, so shockey u could say his best year he had like 80 more yards but cooley had trifflin brunell throwin him the ball with an arm of a grandma..... but the thing that skins love cooley for is, he doesnt drop passes which shockey does a lot, also all his yards are yac and o yea hes not a idiot who makes boneheaded plays and penalties


its fine with me if cooley doesnt get the repesct he deserves i just wish people wouldnt be so ignorant and realize this guy can play, nfc east fans should know especially

McBain
10-19-2007, 01:20 PM
I honestly can't even think you're being serious, therefore I don't want to waste my time talking about this.

please you act like they are so head and shoulder's above cooley. i would take cooley over both of them. i don't really care what you think about that, because it's the truth.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-19-2007, 01:48 PM
Cooley is so underrated aside from his pass catching skills which is well documented he is a terrific blocker, he even has the versatility to line up at FB and lead block for Portis, I'd like to see Shockey lead block from the backfield taking on a DT or LB. Shockey no doubt is flashier and more prone to big plays but he has so many lapses of concentration and drops, Cooley is money with anything thrown to him, Shockey is Kevin Garnett, Cooley is Tim Duncan. Cooley may not be noticed as being flashy but he will do the little things and perform when the game is on the line, you never have to worry about him being bad.

cowboysforever
10-19-2007, 01:48 PM
Witten
Cooley
Shockey

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-19-2007, 07:10 PM
This is a joke right? Shockey's a far more dominant blocker, more explosive receiver and he'd run through brick wall if it helped the team, cooley might try to run through a brick wall but shockey actually would do it. Now cooley's a great teammate and is a smart te but he's just not on witten/shockey's level as a blocker and is a step behind those two as a receiver. This is not meant as a slight to cooley but shockey and witten are top 5 TEs and cooley is not.

bigbluedefense
10-19-2007, 08:04 PM
If you believe Cooley is better than Witten and Shockey, then I got a bridge in Brooklyn i want to sell you.

D-Unit
10-19-2007, 08:05 PM
Where the hell is Anthony Fasano in this conversation???? OMG OMG!!!




:D

scottyboy
10-19-2007, 08:10 PM
Where the hell is Anthony Fasano in this conversation???? OMG OMG!!!




:D

What about Kevin Boss. His college numbers are crazy in that excellent competition he faced in that tough division West Oregon plays in.

703SKINS202
10-20-2007, 11:49 AM
i cant believe the blind homerism of giants fans love for shockey, top 5 my ass

scottyboy
10-20-2007, 11:51 AM
i cant believe the blind homerism of giants fans love for shockey, top 5 my ass

wow, if thats not blind homerism i dont know what is. Look up some stats, and get me when cooley risks his own health by running for 3 extra yards without a helmet in a huge playoff game for a 1st down.I'll fetch some stats for you, and we'll see who has blind homerism.

scottyboy
10-20-2007, 11:57 AM
Career stats: now Shockey's will be higher playing in 22 more games, but it's not hard to get the jist of it...
Shockey Cooley
Games: 75 53
Receptions: 337 184
Yards: 3902 2007
Avg per catch: 11.6 10.9
TD's 25 23
Catch per game: 4.49 3.47

Hmmm interesting eh? and i dont wanna hear the Brunell excuse because Shockey played with Warner and with an OC who never liked to throw to the TE. Cooley has the big edge in TD's b/c he's more of an option down there, and the giants tend to throw to Amani and Plax.

703SKINS202
10-20-2007, 12:03 PM
Career stats: now Shockey's will be higher playing in 22 more games, but it's not hard to get the jist of it...
Shockey Cooley
Games: 75 53
Receptions: 337 184
Yards: 3902 2007
Avg per catch: 11.6 10.9
TD's 25 23
Catch per game: 4.49 3.47

Hmmm interesting eh? and i dont wanna hear the Brunell excuse because Shockey played with Warner and with an OC who never liked to throw to the TE. Cooley has the big edge in TD's b/c he's more of an option down there, and the giants tend to throw to Amani and Plax.


hahahaha what edge is there????? he has more yards and catches because he has played 2 more season like u said, everything else is even except for the fact that cooley has 25 tds to shockeys 23 while this is only Cooleys 4th year, hmmmmmmm interesting eh? if i cant yuse a brunell excuse u cant use an amani plax excuse its a cheap cop out

scottyboy
10-20-2007, 12:07 PM
hahahaha what edge is there????? he has more yards and catches because he has played 2 more season like u said, everything else is even except for the fact that cooley has 25 tds to shockeys 23 while this is only Cooleys 4th year, hmmmmmmm interesting eh? if i can yuse a brunell excuse u cant use an amani plax excuse its a cheap cop out

well more catches and yards per game says something, so there goes the old 22 games excuse. It's a known fact that cooley is used all over the field which makes him a very dangerous weapon down in the red zone, especailly as a FB out of the backfield. Shockey also blocks alot more than Cooley, and doesnt go out as much. I'm not dissing Cooley, he's one helluva player, but isnt even close to being better than Shockey.

the only TE's better than Shockey are Gonzalez, and maybe Gates and Crumpler. the top 5 are-
1 Gonzalez
2 Gates
3 Crumpler
4a: Shockey
4b: Witten

Shockey and Witten are so close, that they're 4a and 4b, which ever way you want to put them. Obviously i put shockey ahead being I'm a g-men fan

Heap isnt nearly the athlete or playmaker the others are, and lets see Winslow do it for a couple years before we crown his ass

neko4
10-20-2007, 12:12 PM
Maybe gates? Gates is w/o a doubt the best TE in the league. I love Gonzo but he isnt the best anymore. Also Kellen Winslow Jr who catches passes from QB's like the Great Frye and Derek Anderson. He aint too badd as i recall. As a matter of fact he led the league in TE receptions last year. I think he has proven enough to be top 5 for now.

Top 5
gates
gonzo
winslow
crumpler
witten/cooley/shockey

703SKINS202
10-20-2007, 12:13 PM
im not trying to diss shokcey either but wow i cant believe u, ur saying hes so much better because he averages 1 more catch per game and .7 yards which to my estimate is 2 feet, so in ur arguement we can just go ahead and say shockey is 2 feet better than cooley and ill be cool with that, cooley has 4 tds already to shockeys 1, and i think tds are good in football not sure though.... witten crushes shockey too by the way

scottyboy
10-20-2007, 12:13 PM
Maybe gates? Gates is w/o a doubt the best TE in the league. I love Gonzo but he isnt the best anymore. Also theres this guy name Kellen Winslow Jr who catches passes from QB's like the Great Frye and Derek Anderson. He aint too badd as i recall. As a matter of fact he led the league in TE receptions last year.

i put gates as the 2nd, i think gonzo is still the best, untill maybe after this year. And i'm not on the winslow bandwagon, and his blocking definately needs work

scottyboy
10-20-2007, 12:16 PM
im not trying to diss shokcey either but wow i cant believe u, ur saying hes so much better because he averages 1 more catch per game and .7 yards which to my estimate is 2 feet, so in ur arguement we can just go ahead and say shockey is 2 feet better than cooley and ill be cool with that, cooley has 4 tds already to shockeys 1,and i think tds are good in football not sure though.... witten crushes shockey too by the way

sure and shockey has 4 more catches and 108 more yards than Cooley, I'm pretty sure thats good too. you cant base a TE on TD's, as WR's are the main targets down in the redzone, especially for the Giants who have a 6'3 Toomer and 6'5 alien hands Burress. I never said shockey was "so much better" I'm saying he's clearly better. I never gave how much better.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-20-2007, 12:17 PM
Cooley isn't even comparable as a blocker, that's not mentioning that shocked gets more catches per game and yards per catch and plays like a madman out there. Now there's no team in the league that wouldn't want cooley on its roster, but he's just not on shockey or witten's level.

703SKINS202
10-20-2007, 12:18 PM
whatever man i dont really care, ur arguements make no sense from a football standpoint, i'll just be happy knowing we got cooley and u dont

703SKINS202
10-20-2007, 12:20 PM
Cooley isn't even comparable as a blocker, that's not mentioning that shocked gets more catches per game and yards per catch and plays like a madman out there. Now there's no team in the league that wouldn't want cooley on its roster, but he's just not on shockey or witten's level.

once again, averages 1 more catch and .7 yards than cooley, wooooooooooooooooooooow killin cooley o wait not, cooley gets tds instead of droppin em

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-20-2007, 12:25 PM
im not trying to diss shokcey either but wow i cant believe u, ur saying hes so much better because he averages 1 more catch per game and .7 yards which to my estimate is 2 feet, so in ur arguement we can just go ahead and say shockey is 2 feet better than cooley and ill be cool with that, cooley has 4 tds already to shockeys 1, and i think tds are good in football not sure though.... witten crushes shockey too by the way

Look cooley is a very good receiving tight end. Shockey's just a little better there and a lot better as a blocker.

As for witten i disagree there aswell, witten's a more consistent receiver who realizes he doesn't have to carry his team to victory, but again shockey's a more dominant blocker and a comparable receiver.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-20-2007, 12:29 PM
lso shockey gets .7 yards more per catch, which is significant b/c shockey touches the ball more.

703SKINS202
10-20-2007, 12:30 PM
thats cool then, but i would never trade cooley for him

cowboysforever
10-20-2007, 12:30 PM
I'll give Shockey the blocking thing but catching the ball? Shockey drops too many passes to be better than Cooley or Witten.

Gates and Winslow are money though and better atheletes than any of the above.

scottyboy
10-20-2007, 12:32 PM
whatever man i dont really care, ur arguements make no sense from a football standpoint, i'll just be happy knowing we got cooley and u dont

hah look who's speaking. the man who hasnt come up with an actual argument, stat or fact to prove anything.

that's fine, I'll be happy knowing we beat you and have shockey

scottyboy
10-20-2007, 12:33 PM
I'll give Shockey the blocking thing but catching the ball? Shockey drops too many passes to be better than Cooley or Witten.

Gates and Winslow are money though and better atheletes than any of the above.

i know shockey has areputation for drops, but would you care to show me some stats on how many drops he has compared to the other 2? especially cooley.

703SKINS202
10-20-2007, 12:34 PM
lso shockey gets .7 yards more per catch, which is significant b/c shockey touches the ball more.

no because the touches you refer to is 1 more than cooley which would mean touch not touches, multiply that times 16 and u get something like 11.2 yards..... cut the crap on this weak arguement

cowboysforever
10-20-2007, 12:35 PM
hah look who's speaking. the man who hasnt come up with an actual argument, stat or fact to prove anything.

that's fine, I'll be happy knowing we beat you and have shockey

The one thing that keeps Shockey below Gonzo, Gates, Winslow, Witten and Cooley are the drops. Too many easy drops. The TO of Tight Ends.

703SKINS202
10-20-2007, 12:36 PM
hah look who's speaking. the man who hasnt come up with an actual argument, stat or fact to prove anything.

that's fine, I'll be happy knowing we beat you and have shockey

yea look at the thread those numbers i posted represent stats

cowboysforever
10-20-2007, 12:38 PM
i know shockey has areputation for drops, but would you care to show me some stats on how many drops he has compared to the other 2? especially cooley.

I don't compile stats but I do watch lots of games. When Witten drops a pass I am shocked. He has great hands. When Shockey does I am not surprised.

Every time I see Shockey plays and he gets a few his way 1-2 passes end up on the ground that could have been caught.

As I said, he reminds me of TO. All the talent and maybe too focused on RAC but can't remember a game of his that a drop did not occur if he had a few his way.

On Cooley, I will say the following, that team's passing attack is relies lots more on the slot receiver and the RBs than either the Cowboys or Giants. I see Cooley and I see the 4th or 5th option on that team. Goal line, a litle different b/c they love the trickeration with Cooley.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-20-2007, 12:43 PM
I'll give Shockey the blocking thing but catching the ball? Shockey drops too many passes to be better than Cooley or Witten.

Gates and Winslow are money though and better atheletes than any of the above.

I'm not saying shockey couldn't improve his consistency, and that really bugs me since the only reason he hasn't is because he's constantly trying to make a great play and run over 3 people instead of securing the ball and then getting up field. I don't care that the media and casual fans have labeled him as a playmaker so he thinks he needs to make a big play on every catch. If he improved his consistency I would be willing to call him the leagues top tight end.

cowboysforever
10-20-2007, 12:47 PM
If he improved his consistency I would be willing to call him the leagues top tight end.

All hypotheticals start with "IF"

He is too much of a veteran to be in the "IF" world. If this was year 2 of his pro career .....

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-20-2007, 12:49 PM
no because the touches you refer to is 1 more than cooley which would mean touch not touches, multiply that times 16 and u get something like 11.2 yards..... cut the crap on this weak arguement

Actually 1 (the number of catches a game that shockey makes over cooley) times 16 (the number of games in an NFL season) times 11.6 (shockey's ypc) equals 185.6 so shockey averages 16 catches and 185 yards per season over cooley.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-20-2007, 12:55 PM
All hypotheticals start with "IF"

He is too much of a veteran to be in the "IF" world. If this was year 2 of his pro career .....

Oh I agree, if ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk, but for shockey this if is based on a subtle change of mentality, which is part of the reason i want a new hc or oc

cowboysforever
10-20-2007, 02:05 PM
Oh I agree, if ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk, but for shockey this if is based on a subtle change of mentality, which is part of the reason i want a new hc or oc

I gues what I am trying to say with Shockey is that he is too much of a Veteran to start talking about what he "could be if."

He is what he is. A very good TE with tremendous physical talent. Unfortunately, to the outsider he makes many critical mistakes in the form of drops and is not the deep threat he was earlier in his career.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-20-2007, 05:17 PM
I gues what I am trying to say with Shockey is that he is too much of a Veteran to start talking about what he "could be if."

He is what he is. A very good TE with tremendous physical talent. Unfortunately, to the outsider he makes many critical mistakes in the form of drops and is not the deep threat he was earlier in his career.

He wouldn't be first veteran who suddenly had it click but you're right that was just my being a giants fan and dreaming about how great things could be. But I don't know if I agree that he's no longer a great deep threat for the position, we use him almost exclusively as a decoy and blocker this year so we haven't seen if he can still produce as a deep threat.

cowboysforever
10-20-2007, 11:02 PM
He wouldn't be first veteran who suddenly had it click but you're right that was just my being a giants fan and dreaming about how great things could be. But I don't know if I agree that he's no longer a great deep threat for the position, we use him almost exclusively as a decoy and blocker this year so we haven't seen if he can still produce as a deep threat.

I love all the U guys so I am not a hater in this case. He is a fine player.

I will say this to his defense, why use him deep when you have Plax and some pretty good WRs.

D-Unit
10-22-2007, 03:57 AM
QB's:
1) Tony Romo-Underrated QB that has bounced back from his infamous fumble and so called late season collapse that was overly criticized. Doesn't get the recognition he deserves. At some point, you have to believe what your eyes tell you.
2) Donovan Mcnabb-Based off this season's play he should be #4. The NFL is a league all about "what have you done for me lately". McNabb is resting on his laurels, but I think a turnaround is likely.
3) Eli Manning-Seriously can't stand his cry baby face. He's proved enough that he can hang in the league, but expectations are still unfairly high. Unfair because he doesn't have the ceiling to get there.
4) Jason Campbell-On the rise, but is more of a bus driver than anything else right now. I've always thought of him as a bus driver, even in college. Not that that's bad, because he could easily jump to #2 by the end of the year.

RB's:
1) Clinton Portis-Has all the talent you want. Will he finally get through a healthy year?
2) Brian Westbrook-If you can't gain the tough yard pounding your way through, you don't get the #1 ranking.
3) Marion Barber-The Barbarian plays with a controlled abandonment and is a complete RB that can run, block and catch. Could shoot to #1 sooner rather than later. This is the first year Dallas has a formidable OL since he's been w/the team.
4) Brandon Jacobs-When you combine a guy who is injury prone who runs upright, that just spells trouble.
5) Ladell Betts-Good back up.
6) Julius Jones-Just another guy.
ONE MONTH LATER....

QBs
1) Tony Romo-Has only solidified his position at the top, leading the Cowboys to a 6-1 record so far.
2) Eli Manning-My my my... looks like Eli's noticed the pubs on his balls and has decided it's time to grow up some. Getting a positive buzz out there in the media for good reason.
3) Jason Campbell-Still a bus driver, but at least the bus is going in the right direction.
4) Donovan Mcnabb-People starting to make up excuses for him now. That's not good. He is what he is... A once great QB.

RB's:
1) Marion Barber-I'm sorry, but nobody in the division runs with more determination and consistently produces as well as Barber right now. Less than a handful of backs I'd rather have in the entire league.
2) Clinton Portis-Healthy and runnin' hard so far this year. Still a good talent, but some luster has faded off of this star.
3) Brian Westbrook-Injuries have already affected his season so far. Can't say that I didn't expect it. Most dynamic RB in the division, but dynamic just means he has to resort to untraditional methods to be successful.
4) Derrick Ward-Best pure RB on the Giants. Came in and has forced people to notice him.
4) Brandon Jacobs-Saw the trouble a mile ahead. ...and now he might be reinjured??? Not good. Not good at all.
5) Ladell Betts-Has gone from a good back up to just a back up.
6) Julius Jones-Has taken on the nickname Julia Jones by resident Cowboys fans.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-22-2007, 07:19 AM
Putting Ward above Jacobs just shows you haven't been watchng the giants, not faulting you for it but Jacobs is far superior, Ward is a product of our oline being great at run blocking.

Westbrook is still number 1 with his injuries we are seeing just how important he is to the eagles. And while I love Marion the Barbarian I wouldn't put him at one until after the season.

D-Unit
10-22-2007, 01:41 PM
Putting Ward above Jacobs just shows you haven't been watchng the giants, not faulting you for it but Jacobs is far superior, Ward is a product of our oline being great at run blocking.

Westbrook is still number 1 with his injuries we are seeing just how important he is to the eagles. And while I love Marion the Barbarian I wouldn't put him at one until after the season.
Jacobs is better when he's on the field... but he's not build for long successful career. So I don't consider him a better player if he can't handle the starting role. He needs to go back to his safe 3rd down back role where he doesn't see the field as often. Ward has a nice compact build and he's done well with the carries he's had and he doesn't complain when he's taken out of games. Call it him benefiting from a strong OL... Eli gets the love behind the same OL, so should Ward. I'd love to hear a Giants fan say Eli is only good because of the OL. Won't happen. Ward is underrated by his own team's fans.

Number 10
10-22-2007, 02:02 PM
Jacobs is better when he's on the field... but he's not build for long successful career. So I don't consider him a better player if he can't handle the starting role. He needs to go back to his safe 3rd down back role where he doesn't see the field as often. Ward has a nice compact build and he's done well with the carries he's had and he doesn't complain when he's taken out of games. Call it him benefiting from a strong OL... Eli gets the love behind the same OL, so should Ward. I'd love to hear a Giants fan say Eli is only good because of the OL. Won't happen. Ward is underrated by his own team's fans.

Ward is good....but if I had to pick one I'd go with Jacobs right now. The line is mauling people in the running game right now (along with Shockey). They are built for the run game especially with Diehl at LT now...so I think that is where the confusion of who benefits from them in terms of the QB and RBs. I questioned his health as being the only thing that seperated BJ andf a potential big year and I still do. He is more than a 3rd down back...but les than an every down back. Let's not forget Ward got beat up pretty bad in the starting role as well....but the way Gilbride is using them right now is perfect. Let em' split 25-30 carries.

DMWSackMachine
10-22-2007, 02:25 PM
Anyone who puts any RB in our division in front of Brian Westbrook is a douche bag. Sorry, D, but it's true. Westbrook is head and shoulders above any other RB, and might just be the best player in the division at any position.


As for the ongoing TE debate, WHERE ARE PEOPLE GETTING THE IDEA THAT SHOCKEY IS A BETTER BLOCKER THAN WITTEN? It is blowing my mind, truly.

Until the last two seasons, this hasn't even been close. Shockey was a terrible blocker coming into the league, and didn't appear interested in getting better early on. It wasn't until midway into Coughlin's tenure that he started showing the same tenacity and drive in his blocking as he did in the pass game. Meanwhile, Witten has always been a solid blocker, who has gotten progressively better throughout his career, to the point where now I would legitimately label him as a top 10, possibly top 5 blocking TE in the entire league. Considering how inferior most pass receiving TEs are in that phase of the game, that is a mind-boggling statement to make.


Also, you skins fans need to take a chill pill. Cooley is a great young player, and nothing to be ashamed off, not by a long shot. But he just isn't quite there on the same plane as Shockey. At the first of the season, I would have called it fairly equal, based upon the previous play, with the inconsistency of Shockey balancing out his superior explosiveness as a playmaker. However, he looks much improved in the running game as a blocker and hasn't had as many mental lapses as in year's past, giving him the clear edge.

Cooley is what he is, a very good, versatile and disciplined player who gets his job done very well, but that's all he can ever be. He doesn't have that elite-level ability to make him an All-Time type, which Shockey and Witten both have in spades.

bigbluedefense
10-22-2007, 02:31 PM
Anyone who puts any RB in our division in front of Brian Westbrook is a douche bag. Sorry, D, but it's true. Westbrook is head and shoulders above any other RB, and might just be the best player in the division at any position.


As for the ongoing TE debate, WHERE ARE PEOPLE GETTING THE IDEA THAT SHOCKEY IS A BETTER BLOCKER THAN WITTEN? It is blowing my mind, truly.

Until the last two seasons, this hasn't even been close. Shockey was a terrible blocker coming into the league, and didn't appear interested in getting better early on. It wasn't until midway into Coughlin's tenure that he started showing the same tenacity and drive in his blocking as he did in the pass game. Meanwhile, Witten has always been a solid blocker, who has gotten progressively better throughout his career, to the point where now I would legitimately label him as a top 10, possibly top 5 blocking TE in the entire league. Considering how inferior most pass receiving TEs are in that phase of the game, that is a mind-boggling statement to make.


Also, you skins fans need to take a chill pill. Cooley is a great young player, and nothing to be ashamed off, not by a long shot. But he just isn't quite there on the same plane as Shockey. At the first of the season, I would have called it fairly equal, based upon the previous play, with the inconsistency of Shockey balancing out his superior explosiveness as a playmaker. However, he looks much improved in the running game as a blocker and hasn't had as many mental lapses as in year's past, giving him the clear edge.

Cooley is what he is, a very good, versatile and disciplined player who gets his job done very well, but that's all he can ever be. He doesn't have that elite-level ability to make him an All-Time type, which Shockey and Witten both have in spades.

None of us are saying that Shockey was great at blocking throughout his career. But last year going into this year, he's been a terrific blocker. And this year he's been flat out dominant as a blocker.

I can honestly say, that he's been blocking better than Witten this year. That takes nothing away from Witten because he's also a dominant blocker himself.

But Ive seen Shockey block DeMarcus Ware one on one and give him the business this year. I don't even think Witten can do that in all honesty. Watch the film against the 49ers, he was dominant blocking, and was the main reason why our RBs got to the 2nd level.

Overall, Witten has been the better player this year. But if you put on the film and watch both of them block THIS YEAR, emphasis on this year, Shockey has been blocking better than him.

But again, to reiterate, Witten has been the better overall player this year. And still a dominant blocker.

Again, we're talking about this year. I just want to clarify that.

Number 10
10-22-2007, 02:33 PM
Yestersay was yet another game in which Shockey tossed defensive lineman around. Anyone see the amount of room is closed off to the outside when they run behind #80? Jacobs doesn't accelerate quickly enough but yet when he bounces to the outside nobody is even close to him until he is 3-4 yards past the line.

bigbluedefense
10-22-2007, 02:36 PM
Yestersay was yet another game in which Shockey tossed defensive lineman around. Anyone see the amount of room is closed off to the outside when they run behind #80? Jacobs doesn't accelerate quickly enough but yet when he bounces to the outside nobody is even close to him until he is 3-4 yards past the line.

he was consistently blocking 2 guys and paving the way for Jacobs. He was like a fullback out there. Anyone who doesn't believe he's an amazing blocker now just needs to watch the film of that game to know what we're talking about. We're not pulling it out of our ass or anything.

Sniper
10-22-2007, 02:38 PM
Will you guys shut the **** up about who's got the best TE and just trade ONE of them to Philly? ;) Our red zone offense is awful, a nice TE would be helpful

DMWSackMachine
10-22-2007, 03:35 PM
Will you guys shut the **** up about who's got the best TE and just trade ONE of them to Philly? ;) Our red zone offense is awful, a nice TE would be helpful

I think you finally made a statement that everyone here can agree with. Definitely QFT.

An idea that struck me after I read your post is that the Eagles should offer the Cowboys a 2nd rounder for Fasano. He is a great young player with plenty of upside who is ready to produce now, is still on his rookie contract, and would provide an immediate upgrade in both the pass and run game.

Then they could run more 2 TE sets, which would probably suit Westrbook's talents better anyway, and it would help resolve their redzone shortcomings on top of everything else.

This is, of course, a complete and utter daydream, but it sure would benefit both teams greatly. Too bad.

Damix
10-22-2007, 03:53 PM
Jacobs is better when he's on the field... but he's not build for long successful career. So I don't consider him a better player if he can't handle the starting role. He needs to go back to his safe 3rd down back role where he doesn't see the field as often. Ward has a nice compact build and he's done well with the carries he's had and he doesn't complain when he's taken out of games. Call it him benefiting from a strong OL... Eli gets the love behind the same OL, so should Ward. I'd love to hear a Giants fan say Eli is only good because of the OL. Won't happen. Ward is underrated by his own team's fans.

Don't see how you can knock down Jacobs for his style of running and still put Barber first. As long as Barber keeps looking for contact on all of his runs his career will be as short as Jacobs. They both need to step out of bounds every once in a while if they want to stay in this league for a long time.

scottyboy
10-22-2007, 03:57 PM
D it's spelled "pubes" not pubs. geez lol

and I'm pretty sure shockey didnt have a drop last game now did he?

D-Unit
10-22-2007, 04:57 PM
Anyone who puts any RB in our division in front of Brian Westbrook is a douche bag. Sorry, D, but it's true. Westbrook is head and shoulders above any other RB, and might just be the best player in the division at any position.


As for the ongoing TE debate, WHERE ARE PEOPLE GETTING THE IDEA THAT SHOCKEY IS A BETTER BLOCKER THAN WITTEN? It is blowing my mind, truly.

Until the last two seasons, this hasn't even been close. Shockey was a terrible blocker coming into the league, and didn't appear interested in getting better early on. It wasn't until midway into Coughlin's tenure that he started showing the same tenacity and drive in his blocking as he did in the pass game. Meanwhile, Witten has always been a solid blocker, who has gotten progressively better throughout his career, to the point where now I would legitimately label him as a top 10, possibly top 5 blocking TE in the entire league. Considering how inferior most pass receiving TEs are in that phase of the game, that is a mind-boggling statement to make.


Also, you skins fans need to take a chill pill. Cooley is a great young player, and nothing to be ashamed off, not by a long shot. But he just isn't quite there on the same plane as Shockey. At the first of the season, I would have called it fairly equal, based upon the previous play, with the inconsistency of Shockey balancing out his superior explosiveness as a playmaker. However, he looks much improved in the running game as a blocker and hasn't had as many mental lapses as in year's past, giving him the clear edge.

Cooley is what he is, a very good, versatile and disciplined player who gets his job done very well, but that's all he can ever be. He doesn't have that elite-level ability to make him an All-Time type, which Shockey and Witten both have in spades.
I don't see the big deal in Westbrook as a RB outside of him being able to catch the ball real well. Reason why Philly has never been able to win the big one is because they've lacked a pure RB. Westbrook as the #1 RB in the division? They guy has to be taken out when they're on the goalline for goodness sakes. ...and I can't even remember when the last time he played all 16 games.

My ratings are "current" ratings. How they are at this point in time. Westbrook has had a better career than Barber... but I'd take Barber over Westbrook when I go to battle every day of the week. No ifs ands or butts... even IF people wanna call me a douche.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-22-2007, 05:10 PM
Don't see how you can knock down Jacobs for his style of running and still put Barber first. As long as Barber keeps looking for contact on all of his runs his career will be as short as Jacobs. They both need to step out of bounds every once in a while if they want to stay in this league for a long time.

This is very true about Barber's running style, Jacobs may take more hits for being taller and running higher but Barber is looking for an injury every time he steps out on the field, it's just a matter of time. Also just a sidenote but anyone else have a problem with Romo on Crayton's fumble play. I mean wtf slide tackling 2 guys that's dirty and cheap and he deserved any injury he might have gotten. You can hurt players that way, and wtf the was he doing his team was trying to tackle Cedric Griffin not blocking so why would you slide tackle 2 guys who weren't even going after him.

Number 10
10-22-2007, 06:23 PM
I won't knock Barber's running style for being "dangerous to his health" until he's injured. You can't say that about Jacobs because he keeps on getting those nagging injuries.

cowboysforever
10-22-2007, 09:39 PM
I won't knock Barber's running style for being "dangerous to his health" until he's injured. You can't say that about Jacobs because he keeps on getting those nagging injuries.

Honestly, I see Barber giving out more than he takes. That stiff arm punch is pretty effective. He moves his hips and legs when he get hit

Jacobs is just a bull. When you hit him he either goes down or you do. Their is no wiggle in his body.

Lifke the difference between concrete and steel. Concrete is stronger head on but once is cracks..... steel just bends more and more.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-23-2007, 10:52 AM
Jacobs is like concrete that chips easily.

DMWSackMachine
10-23-2007, 11:36 AM
Pretty sure that Westbrook has one of the 2 or 3 highest YPA figures in the NFL, as well as being the best receiving back in the league, a terrific pass blocker despite his small size, and a true game breaker. Saying he needs to be subbed at the goal-line is stupid, because 1) he often gets gl carries and 2) even if he was subbed out, it doesn't mean much. A lot of great RBs in the history of the league have been subbed at the goal line. Hell, Barry ***** Sanders was subbed out at the goalline. Tiki was subbed regularly. It has happened quite a bit, and it didn't stop those players from being great.

Westbrook suffers plenty from Reid's irritating lack of commitment to the running game. Additionally, his fragility is certainly a mark against him. Even with all that, though, he is still the best--far and away--at his position in this division, and with the way the year has gone so far, probably the conference, too.

bigbluedefense
10-23-2007, 11:40 AM
I personally have them rated as such.

1. Westbrook








2. Marion Barber
3. Clinton Portis
4. Brandon Jacobs
5. Derrick Ward
6. Ladell Betts
7. Julius Jones
8. The Eagles 2nd RB really isn't even relevant to be honest.

Jughead10
10-23-2007, 11:49 AM
Derrick Ward is not better than Jacobs not even close. For a smaller shiftier guys, he doesn't even have better hands. It's rather easy to compare two guys running behind the same O-line and against the same competition. There shouldn't even be question here.

bigbluedefense
10-23-2007, 11:50 AM
Derrick Ward is not better than Jacobs not even close. For a smaller shiftier guys, he doesn't even have better hands.

I have Jacobs rated ahead of him.

Ward does fit our system better than Jacobs though. Id love a Mike Hart type of running back. Thats the perfect type of player for our offense.

Sniper
10-23-2007, 12:02 PM
I personally have them rated as such.

1. Westbrook








2. Marion Barber
3. Clinton Portis
4. Brandon Jacobs
5. Derrick Ward
6. Ladell Betts
7. Julius Jones
8. The Eagles 2nd RB really isn't even relevant to be honest.


Correll Buckhalter had 106 yards against the Giants on 17 carries.

Sniper
10-23-2007, 12:04 PM
Westbrook suffers plenty from Reid's irritating lack of commitment to the running game. Additionally, his fragility is certainly a mark against him. Even with all that, though, he is still the best--far and away--at his position in this division, and with the way the year has gone so far, probably the conference, too.

I swear Andy has a Jiminy Cricket in his ear telling him "That's enough Andy! You've gashed the defense with one of the best backs in the league all day. STOP IT NOW! PASS ANDY, PASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!"

bigbluedefense
10-23-2007, 12:17 PM
Correll Buckhalter had 106 yards against the Giants on 17 carries.

Thats one game. And he barely touches the ball at all. Hell, he'll be lucky to get 5 touches a game. He's irrelevant to the discussion. Its like arguing who has the best 3rd string LT. Whats the point? Out of sight, out of mind.

D-Unit
10-23-2007, 04:52 PM
Pretty sure that Westbrook has one of the 2 or 3 highest YPA figures in the NFL, as well as being the best receiving back in the league, a terrific pass blocker despite his small size, and a true game breaker. Saying he needs to be subbed at the goal-line is stupid, because 1) he often gets gl carries and 2) even if he was subbed out, it doesn't mean much. A lot of great RBs in the history of the league have been subbed at the goal line. Hell, Barry ***** Sanders was subbed out at the goalline. Tiki was subbed regularly. It has happened quite a bit, and it didn't stop those players from being great.

Westbrook suffers plenty from Reid's irritating lack of commitment to the running game. Additionally, his fragility is certainly a mark against him. Even with all that, though, he is still the best--far and away--at his position in this division, and with the way the year has gone so far, probably the conference, too.
Only situation that I want Westbrook in the game over Barber is if it's 4th and 20 and we're going for it. Other than that I want Barber.

How much is Westbrook's numbers apart of the system? Answer that. Westbrook is a system RB who wouldn't have the same type of success in an offense that didn't feature so much receiving from the RB.

Last I checked Barber was a damn good receiver out of the backfield in his own right. Simply put, he's just a more complete back. Westbrook has the ability to break a game open with his speed, which is good, but it is also why he is just a glorified 3rd down back.

neko4
10-23-2007, 04:55 PM
Theres this guy name Clinton Portis, who is probably suffering more from Oline injuries than any RB in this division.
I think it would be hard to seperate between Westbrook, Portis and Barber, theyre all pretty damn good and any one of them could get the job done

1a- Westbrook
1b- Portis
1c- Barber
4a- Betts
4b- Jacobs
4c- Jones


7- Ward
8- Buckhalter
9- Sellers
10-Everyone else

scottyboy
10-23-2007, 04:56 PM
guys we could have endless debates about the RB's all day long, but we all know all of our RB's are nothing compared to the greatness of Brian Leonard.



I think the NFC East would have a devastating OL, or at least guard combo. with Snee and Andrews, any RB could go for 100+ a game

DMWSackMachine
10-24-2007, 11:21 AM
Only situation that I want Westbrook in the game over Barber is if it's 4th and 20 and we're going for it. Other than that I want Barber.

How much is Westbrook's numbers apart of the system? Answer that. Westbrook is a system RB who wouldn't have the same type of success in an offense that didn't feature so much receiving from the RB.

Last I checked Barber was a damn good receiver out of the backfield in his own right. Simply put, he's just a more complete back. Westbrook has the ability to break a game open with his speed, which is good, but it is also why he is just a glorified 3rd down back.

I have a feeling that you live in a Whale's Vagina, do you speak German?

D-Unit
10-24-2007, 08:27 PM
I have a feeling that you live in a Whale's Vagina, do you speak German?
No, but I have a feeling you've been in a Whale's vagina before. Did you meet a German there or something?

703SKINS202
10-24-2007, 08:36 PM
terrible comeback to a worse joke

scottyboy
10-24-2007, 08:38 PM
whales vagina? guys, i thought we were leaving DChess's mom out of this

D-Unit
10-25-2007, 02:04 AM
terrible comeback to a worse joke
That wasn't a comeback, I was being serious.... but...uh...What would your comeback have been?

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-25-2007, 08:14 AM
That wasn't a comeback, I was being serious.... but...uh...What would your comeback have been?

An anchorman joke that's that bad doesn't require a comeback.

DMWSackMachine
10-25-2007, 05:47 PM
At least someone got the reference, if not the actual joke.

Translation: D, you are clearly f.o.s., and you are making yourself look pretty ridiculous by insisting that MBIII, as good as he is, is anywhere near as good as Westbrook is. It's just not true. Not even close.

Much like Mr. Burgundy, you are just going to have to "agree to disagree"

bigbluedefense
10-25-2007, 09:28 PM
we can disagree without taking shots at each other, let's not turn this into the same mess the cowboys board has become.

Sniper
10-25-2007, 09:29 PM
we can disagree without taking shots at each other, let's not turn this into the same mess the cowboys board has become.

Shut the **** up *****!

I kid, I kid.

DMWSackMachine
10-26-2007, 01:09 PM
Shut the **** up *****!

I kid, I kid.

Nice.

So, now what should we move on to? Shall we finish off with OL and rank these players according to position?

T:

Adams
Colombo
McKenzie
Diehl
Runyan
Thomas
Samuels
Jansen--or whatsisname(Heyer, is it?), wtfever

G:

Snee
Seubert
Herremans
Andrews
Kendall
Thomas
Davis
Kosier

C:

Gurode
Jackson
O'Hara
Rabach



My best shot (though I haven't seen much of Seubert or Kendall)

Spaces indicate breaks in tiers

T:
1. Samuels
2. Adams
3. Thomas

4. Runyan
5. McKenzie
6. Colombo
7. Diehl

8. that one dude

G:

1. Andrews
1a. Davis (this is ridiculously close)

3. Snee
4. Thomas

5. Kosier
6. Herremans

unranked: Seubert and Kendall

C:

1. Gurode
2. Rabach
3. O'Hara
4. Jackson

Jughead10
10-26-2007, 01:14 PM
Nice.

So, now what should we move on to? Shall we finish off with OL and rank these players according to position?

T:

Adams
Colombo
McKenzie
Diehl
Runyan
Thomas
Samuels
Jansen--or whatsisname(Heyer, is it?), wtfever

G:

Snee
Seubert
Herremans
Andrews
Kendall
Thomas
Davis
Kosier

C:

Gurode
Jackson
O'Hara
Rabach



My best shot (though I haven't seen much of Seubert or Kendall)

Spaces indicate breaks in tiers

T:
1. Samuels
2. Adams
3. Thomas

4. Runyan
5. McKenzie
6. Colombo
7. Diehl

8. that one dude

G:

1. Andrews
1a. Davis (this is ridiculously close)

3. Snee
4. Thomas

5. Kosier
6. Herremans

unranked: Seubert and Kendall

C:

1. Gurode
2. Rabach
3. O'Hara
4. Jackson

You have all the Giants ranked awfully low when they are probably the best O-line in the NFC.

Sniper
10-26-2007, 01:23 PM
My best shot (though I haven't seen much of Seubert or Kendall)

Spaces indicate breaks in tiers

T:
1. Samuels
2. Adams
3. Thomas

4. Runyan
5. McKenzie
6. Colombo
7. Diehl

8. that one dude

G:

1. Andrews
1a. Davis (this is ridiculously close)

3. Snee
4. Thomas

5. Kosier
6. Herremans

C:

1. Gurode
2. Rabach
3. O'Hara
4. Jackson

Runyan is better and more consistent than William Thomas. Andrews and Davis are most definitely not ridiculously close. Andrews is still better than Davis on an off year. Jackson is vastly underrated

Number 10
10-26-2007, 02:24 PM
Diehl below Columbo?!?!?!

Jughead10
10-26-2007, 02:25 PM
Diehl below Columbo?!?!?!

Didn't you know Reese dropped the ball on not getting a LT this offseason?

Number 10
10-26-2007, 02:32 PM
I was starting to come around on you DMW....but those rankings are awful. I'll try to get mine up soon.

Number 10
10-26-2007, 02:47 PM
Cureent rankings....injured players left out

Tackle

1 - Chris Samuels - Redskins
2 - Flozell Adams - Cowboys
3 - David Diehl - Giants
4 - Tra Thomas - Eagles
5 - Kareem McKenzie - Giants
6 - Jon Runyan - Eagles
7 - Marc Columbo - Cowboys
8 - Todd Wade - Redskins

Guard

1 - Shawn Andrews - Eagles
2 - Leonard Davis - Cowboys
3 - Chris Snee - Giants
4 - Todd Herremans - Eagles
5 - Peter Kendall - Redskins
6 - Kyle Kosier - Cowboys
7 - Rich Seubert - Giants
8 - Jason Fabini - Redskins

Center

1 - Andre Gurode - Cowboys
2 - Shaun O'Hara - Giants
3 - Casey Rabach - Redskins
4 - Jamaal Jackson - Eagles

Sniper
10-26-2007, 03:03 PM
Jamaal Jackson gets absolutely no love. Other than that, I like your list

Jughead10
10-26-2007, 03:07 PM
Jamaal Jackson gets absolutely no love. Other than that, I like your list

There are a lot of good centers in the East. If there was a ranking of the entire NFC, he would certainly grade a lot better compared to other centers.

Ward
10-26-2007, 03:19 PM
Wow, the east has a pretty good O-line except for guard.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-26-2007, 03:55 PM
It's so sad that the Skins line is decimated because they could have had a nasty line with Samuels, Pete Kendal, Casey Rabach, Randy Thomas, and Jon Jansen.

Burns336
10-26-2007, 06:15 PM
Cureent rankings....injured players left out

Tackle

1 - Chris Samuels - Redskins
2 - Flozell Adams - Cowboys
3 - David Diehl - Giants
4 - Tra Thomas - Eagles
5 - Kareem McKenzie - Giants
6 - Jon Runyan - Eagles
7 - Marc Columbo - Cowboys
8 - Todd Wade - Redskins

Guard

1 - Shawn Andrews - Eagles
2 - Leonard Davis - Cowboys
3 - Chris Snee - Giants
4 - Todd Herremans - Eagles
5 - Peter Kendall - Redskins
6 - Kyle Kosier - Cowboys
7 - Rich Seubert - Giants
8 - Jason Fabini - Redskins

Center

1 - Andre Gurode - Cowboys
2 - Shaun O'Hara - Giants
3 - Casey Rabach - Redskins
4 - Jamaal Jackson - Eagles

I would put Kyle Kosier on the bottom of that list... I only have one emotion towards that man and it's hate.

Number 10
10-26-2007, 07:08 PM
The two best offensive lines in the NFC reside in the east. It's hard to tell which group is better between Dallas and New York, they're dominant in very different fashions.

neko4
10-26-2007, 07:09 PM
The two best offensive lines in the NFC reside in the east. It's hard to tell which group is better between Dallas and New York, they're dominant in very different fashions.
I would say Washington is just as good if not better than NYG or DAL's when healthy

bigbluedefense
10-26-2007, 07:15 PM
I think Dallas has a slightly better line than the Giants. Id rate Dallas's oline as the 2nd best in the league right now, only behind NE, whereas I have the Giants oline playing at around 5 in the league.

If I were to rate olines in the NFL top 5 would be

1. New England
2. Dallas
3. Tennesee Titans
4. Colts
5. Giants

Either way, the 3 best olines in the NFC are in the East, with Dallas, then the Giants followed by the Eagles.

Now I know the Eagles are getting heat, and alot of people are weighing that one game with Justice against them, but the Eagles offensive woes aren't because of their line. They just have no commitment to the run game, which is what their oline has actually become dominant at (run blocking) and they have WRs who simply aren't getting open.

I think injuries to Westbrook, and from the naked eye it seems that theyre also going more vertical then years past with their playbook, it makes the oline look bad.

But this unit is still great, its just that the pieces around them are not. Even for Philly standards, their WR core this year is below par.

Number 10
10-26-2007, 07:21 PM
I would say Washington is just as good if not better than NYG or DAL's when healthy

No way. Jansen hasn't been good in awhile and both Kendall and Rabach are average.

They were good when they made the playoffs but now they're average...top half of the league probably.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-26-2007, 08:35 PM
are you guys crazy diehl hasn't done anything well. The giants are stupid for taking over-rated Ross instead of probowler joe staley.

bigbluedefense
10-26-2007, 08:39 PM
Yeah I gotta admit, Im pleasantly shocked at how well Diehl is playing LT right now. I did not expect that at all.

Turtlepower
10-26-2007, 09:21 PM
are you guys crazy diehl hasn't done anything well. The giants are stupid for taking over-rated Ross instead of probowler joe staley.

Because Joe Staley has been playing great. Are you being sarcastic, or are you high?

Number 10
10-26-2007, 09:42 PM
Because Joe Staley has been playing great. Are you being sarcastic, or are you high?

He's being sarcastic...Staley has looked worse than awful.

Burns336
10-26-2007, 11:46 PM
I love the Aaron ross pick by you guys, I was hopin he would fall to the 'boys. Glad to see he looks like he is on his way to good things. I just hope he has a bad game everytime he plays Dallas. I guess it's good we got spencer though, we would of been in trouble with Ellis' injury had we not. Plus he looks to have some upside. Athletic dude.

Sniper
10-27-2007, 12:40 AM
The two best offensive lines in the NFC reside in the east. It's hard to tell which group is better between Dallas and New York, they're dominant in very different fashions.

Philly's was nasty before this year. They're still good, but old. People make it seem like Justice plays every game

DMWSackMachine
10-27-2007, 03:00 AM
Cureent rankings....injured players left out

Tackle

1 - Chris Samuels - Redskins
2 - Flozell Adams - Cowboys
3 - David Diehl - Giants
4 - Tra Thomas - Eagles
5 - Kareem McKenzie - Giants
6 - Jon Runyan - Eagles
7 - Marc Columbo - Cowboys
8 - Todd Wade - Redskins

Guard

1 - Shawn Andrews - Eagles
2 - Leonard Davis - Cowboys
3 - Chris Snee - Giants
4 - Todd Herremans - Eagles
5 - Peter Kendall - Redskins
6 - Kyle Kosier - Cowboys
7 - Rich Seubert - Giants
8 - Jason Fabini - Redskins

Center

1 - Andre Gurode - Cowboys
2 - Shaun O'Hara - Giants
3 - Casey Rabach - Redskins
4 - Jamaal Jackson - Eagles


I was starting to come around on you DMW....but those rankings are awful. I'll try to get mine up soon.

Come again? It looks like to me that our rankings are pretty similar. The obvious difference is that I don't rank the Giant players as high as you do, particularly Diehl.

Now, I admit, he has been much better so far than I ever expected, but I am still not going to crown his ass. If you want to, then do so. I will admit that he isn't what I thought he was, though. I need to see more, and especially against some higher quality of defenses.

As for the rest, you moved OHara up one spot, but I really like Rabach, and I really like Jackson. The 4 aren't that far separated from each other, though Gurode is clearly the best. O'Hara and Rabach was kind of a toss up for me, and I took Rabach. Don't agree that he is merely mediocre. I like him.

You have Herremans waaaay too high. He has regressed in every game I have watched so far. Half of the debacle in the "Winston Justice" game was because of him, and he has been blowing assignments in the running game. Not a big fan right now, though I had high expectations for him coming in.

But really, what's your beef? You act like I just claimed that DeMarcus Ware>>Lawrence Taylor, my rankings are perfectly defensible. I think you're just irked because I put Diehl so low. If it makes you feel better, I will move him if/when he continues his play into the final month of the season.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-27-2007, 08:10 AM
you put diehl below Colombo which is indefensible.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-27-2007, 08:13 AM
I haven't paid much attention to Jackson this year, but last year he had a legit case to take gurode's probowl spot. Has he really reyressed to where he's worse than rabach? I can understand gurode and o'hara, one was a probowl starter and the other a probowl alternate but rabach? Are you sure?

Sniper
10-27-2007, 09:10 AM
I haven't paid much attention to Jackson this year, but last year he had a legit case to take gurode's probowl spot. Has he really reyressed to where he's worse than rabach? I can understand gurode and o'hara, one was a probowl starter and the other a probowl alternate but rabach? Are you sure?

No he hasn't regressed that much. He's been very consistent and makes a lot of good calls. Our sack total is pretty high (obviously a huge chunk from the Giants game) but a lot of them are due to our receivers sucking and only having one offensive weapon, resulting in a lot of coverage sacks. JJ is very good.

DMWSackMachine
10-28-2007, 01:15 AM
I think all of the NFC East centers are in roughly the same range. Apparently I like Rabach a lot more than everyone else, but I've always felt that he is a very good player. O'Hars is excellent as well, and I like Jackson, although his relative inexperience played a big role in putting him 4th. All are very good players, though.