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View Full Version : Why the Lions should trade for Jason Taylor. (Written and illustrated by TL.)


TacticaLion
09-19-2007, 11:58 AM
There have been rumors lately that Jason Taylor (yes... THE Jason Taylor... 2006 DPOY) is on the trading block. Many wonder why the Fins would look to trade him, but it actually makes sense: the team isn’t contending and Taylor isn’t getting younger. His stock will never be higher than it is now, which makes it the perfect time to acquire a 1st round pick and focus on the future.

Enter; Lions. Although the Fins aren’t in a position to compete, the Lions may be. An average record can get you to the playoffs in the NFC (especially the NFC North), and an incredible Defensive Line in a Cover 2 can be just the thing to turn a defense from average to outstanding.

The price? A 1st round draft pick. Sure, it sounds like a lot (as first round picks are seen as a “pot of gold” - Goodell), but what would our focus be with that pick next year? S? Interesting. A healthy Bullocks and emerging Alexander would help solidify the S position, which leaves DE as one of our biggest positions of need. A player of Jason Taylor’s caliber would satisfy that need nicely.

The result? Kalimba Edwards, who is having a solid season, would be used as a back-up, a role he should be filling anyway. Taylor offers more all-around play than Edwards does, which would help the defense as a whole. Passing down? Edwards. Tired? Edwards. Back-up? Edwards.

I know, I know… why give up a first round pick? Taylor is getting older, so why not spend the pick on a young stud? We spent a 2nd round pick on IAF, a raw but promising player. Taylor has at LEAST 3 years of solid production left, which would be just enough time for Marinelli to build IAF into the stud he imagined he’d be. What better a person to learn from than Taylor, anyway? A perfect transition…

Closing: this move would give us an elite starting DLine group with great depth… something the Lions need to compete against the great NFL teams. White-Rogers-Redding-Taylor? WRRT?! Pressure is paramount in a Cover 2 defense, and these 4 players will give us just that… pressure and big plays.

Do it, Millen, do it…

(Note: I’ll make an illustration for this later…)

TheMadLionsFan
09-19-2007, 12:47 PM
I honestly think we could get him for a 2nd round pick....but Safety isn't the only need....I still think MLB & SLB are needs...as well as CB....

Scotty D
09-19-2007, 03:59 PM
Interesting idea, but I would only consider it for a second rounder and then I'm still not sold on the idea.

I don't think we are close to enough to mortage the future. I want a stud CB, MLB, or DE in round 1. If its a DE stick him into the rotation with Edwards and White. Rookie gets playing time while White and Edwards stay fresh. Also we are forgetting about IAF who I'm sure Marinelli has big plans for.

PS. If we are in position for Long I think we should take him. Foster is upgradeable and Backus is well Backus.

TacticaLion
09-19-2007, 04:59 PM
Ha. I'm hoping that Backus can perform better with an improved supporting cast (what he has this year). Foster looks... well... OK... but, as you said, definitely upgradable.

With the pick invested in IAF, I think it would be worth it to grab Taylor. Instant playmaker and a model for IAF to emulate.

And... I'd do it for a 1st. I'd rather do it for a 2nd, but, if they'd only do it for a 1st, I'd do it.

Note: the MLB situation needs work, as does CB, but I think our SLB position COULD be solidified with Lewis. They keep playing Bailey over him, but I think he'll break out with playing time.

Isn't Quarles still a FA? Sure, he's old, but knows the system and would be an outstanding stopgap.

Scotty D
09-19-2007, 05:06 PM
Also it just doesn't make sense when both our starting DEs are playing so well. Its just such a win now move that it doesn't make sense for us. Hell if we are 5-0 and the trading deadline is week six. Make the deal.

TacticaLion
09-19-2007, 05:37 PM
Also it just doesn't make sense when both our starting DEs are playing so well. Its just such a win now move that it doesn't make sense for us. Hell if we are 5-0 and the trading deadline is week six. Make the deal.

I don't agree with that perspective, though (bold). What if getting him pushes us to a 5-0 record? Isn't it worth it?

As good as Edwards has been, Jason Taylor is a huge upgrade at the position. And, no offense to Cory Smith (who has played well in limited time), but Kalimba Edwards off the bench is just crazy. Would be an incredible DE group.

Nerv
09-19-2007, 07:32 PM
I don't think the Lions are good enough at this point to make a win now trade. Sure we are 2-0 but weve beaten 2 teams who arent very good. Maybe this trade would push us up to a wild card team but I really dont think giving up a 1st rounder (2nd maybe) is worth it to lose in the 1st round of the playoffs.

TacticaLion
09-19-2007, 09:18 PM
I don't think the Lions are good enough at this point to make a win now trade. Sure we are 2-0 but weve beaten 2 teams who arent very good. Maybe this trade would push us up to a wild card team but I really dont think giving up a 1st rounder (2nd maybe) is worth it to lose in the 1st round of the playoffs.
WHAT?! Wait... you've said that this trade might get us a wild card (the playoffs), but it isn't worth it to lose in the first round?

Huh?!

If this trade got us to a wild card, it's completely worth it. Wild card? Playoffs? That isn't worth it?

Anything can happen in the playoffs. We could pull off an upset and advance... the other team's QB could get injured (Bengals)... anything can happen.

If we could get to the playoffs, it's worth it.

bearsfan_51
09-19-2007, 10:01 PM
Even though the Dolphins aren't very good, I'd rather live in Miami and play for a mediocre team than be traded to Detroit and play for a mediocre team.

In other words, I doubt he'd sign off on it.

Jagonsucker
09-19-2007, 11:36 PM
yeah i would not trade a 1st rounder for him..a 2nd rounder yes not a 1st

Addict
09-20-2007, 02:23 AM
Even though the Dolphins aren't very good, I'd rather live in Miami and play for a mediocre team than be traded to Detroit and play for a mediocre team.

In other words, I doubt he'd sign off on it.

Well we are 2-0, so (right now) we're not all that mediocre. But I think Taylor has the attitude and the proffesionlism to play here as well as in Miami.

BUT! I'd rather trade up for a young supertalen than for a (soon to be) declining veteran)

WMD
09-20-2007, 03:04 AM
He's a great player.. but I wouldn't trade for him unless I felt my team was in a 2-3 year run of contending for the Super Bowl.

TacticaLion
09-20-2007, 04:59 AM
He's a great player.. but I wouldn't trade for him unless I felt my team was in a 2-3 year run of contending for the Super Bowl.Looking at the start we've had as a team, and thinking about the impact he could have with us, couldn't we make the playoffs in our division? He immediately elevates our defense from average to strong... and, after another offseason, the team will just improve for next year.

I guess I think a player like him can do that for us.

BUT! I'd rather trade up for a young supertalen than for a (soon to be) declining veteran)But where does that leave IAF? He's raw but has the tools to be dominant... why not grab someone whose at his peak now and bring IAF along to replace him?

Even though the Dolphins aren't very good, I'd rather live in Miami and play for a mediocre team than be traded to Detroit and play for a mediocre team.

In other words, I doubt he'd sign off on it.Not everyone looks at it that way. If he thinks he has a bigger shot to give one final push with Detroit, a team on the rise, than with Miami, a rebuilding team, that would seem like the decision to make.

detroit4life
09-20-2007, 09:45 PM
No, the lions are in no position to trade their first (which still has a great chance of being a top 15 pick) for an aging veteran. Yes taylor is a great player and i would love him on this team but not at the cost of our first rounder. Our team still has a lot of building to do especially on defense and making that trade is not the right move to make.

TacticaLion
09-21-2007, 09:30 PM
No, the lions are in no position to trade their first (which still has a great chance of being a top 15 pick) for an aging veteran. Yes taylor is a great player and i would love him on this team but not at the cost of our first rounder. Our team still has a lot of building to do especially on defense and making that trade is not the right move to make.
If your perspective is that we're far from contending, than you're right and we shouldn't even think of getting rid of any pick, especially our 1st rounder. But, I see things differently.

Many can agree that our offense is incredible and (if Kitna remains healthy) will stay that way. The concern? Our defense. As we all know, we run a Cover 2. And, as we also know, it relies on pressure from our front 4 to be successful. Pressure creates hurries, sacks and bad decisions... which leads to turnovers. Adding an elite player like Taylor leaves us with a completely dominant "pressure" DLine (especially considering that our rotating DE is a pure pass-rusher)... something that would elevate our defense from average/below-average to strong.

Just ask yourself this question: if we had a solid/great defense, could we be considered a legitimate contender? If your answer is yes, trading for Taylor could give us just that.

detroit4life
09-25-2007, 09:13 PM
If your perspective is that we're far from contending, than you're right and we shouldn't even think of getting rid of any pick, especially our 1st rounder. But, I see things differently.

Many can agree that our offense is incredible and (if Kitna remains healthy) will stay that way. The concern? Our defense. As we all know, we run a Cover 2. And, as we also know, it relies on pressure from our front 4 to be successful. Pressure creates hurries, sacks and bad decisions... which leads to turnovers. Adding an elite player like Taylor leaves us with a completely dominant "pressure" DLine (especially considering that our rotating DE is a pure pass-rusher)... something that would elevate our defense from average/below-average to strong.

Just ask yourself this question: if we had a solid/great defense, could we be considered a legitimate contender? If your answer is yes, trading for Taylor could give us just that.


I completely understand your point but my feeling is that adding taylor will not give this team enough to make a significant impact this year. For starters he does not know our defense and after that the secondary and Lb positions are to weak this year that even with him our defense will still not be respectable

TacticaLion
09-25-2007, 09:14 PM
I completely understand your point but my feeling is that adding taylor will not give this team enough to make a significant impact this year. For starters he does not know our defense and after that the secondary and Lb positions are to weak this year that even with him our defense will still not be respectable
Yeah... those other positions are quite weak. I guess I just wonder if having an incredible pass-rush (and DLine in general) would compensate enough for those weaknesses.

detroit4life
10-02-2007, 07:21 PM
i know this is off topic but what ever happened to the jets looking to trade vilma? Because if they still are Millen should seriosuly look into that. Adding him would be huge to this defense. We need to replace Lenon and unless Lehman is able to do it we need to do it this off season. Vilma would not only bring his great skills he would also bring great leadership to this team. I think Marinelli would love this guy

TacticaLion
10-02-2007, 07:23 PM
i know this is off topic but what ever happened to the jets looking to trade vilma? Because if they still are Millen should seriosuly look into that. Adding him would be huge to this defense. We need to replace Lenon and unless Lehman is able to do it we need to do it this off season. Vilma would not only bring his great skills he would also bring great leadership to this team. I think Marinelli would love this guy

But at what cost? Rogers? I don't think so anymore... I've changed about him completely. Watching him work hard, be part of the team and love the game has changed the player he is. This guy is truly elite and we should hold him (unless the offer is too good).

We're going to draft Rey Maualuga anyway, though, so it's OK.

detroit4life
10-04-2007, 02:34 PM
i wonder if we could get him for a second and a 4th or somthing like that idk even if he is on the block but if he is i would rather him at MLB than anyone in this draft

TacticaLion
03-01-2008, 09:44 PM
i wonder if we could get him for a second and a 4th or somthing like that idk even if he is on the block but if he is i would rather him at MLB than anyone in this draft

You are wise beyond your years.

It has been rumored now that Taylor and the Fins are splitting ways... and they might be asking for a 2nd and 4th.

I think we should make a run for him. We've got 2 3rd round picks... so could still pull off a great draft.

Thoughts?

Cunningham
03-01-2008, 09:56 PM
not a good chance of this happening imo. like it or not the lions don't even have an outside shot at being a legitimate super bowl contender with in the next few seasons. taylor can't wait that long. seems smarter to save those picks to help build up on young talent....

TacticaLion
03-01-2008, 10:33 PM
like it or not the lions don't even have an outside shot at being a legitimate super bowl contender with in the next few seasons. taylor can't wait that long. seems smarter to save those picks to help build up on young talent....

Sorry... whether you agree with it or not, the coaches want to win now (and they believe they can). They don't want to draft a young DE, but would rather get a veteran for the position.

And, every team has an outside shot over the next few seasons. Big things happen... trades, injuries, signings... that change the league year after year. Did anyone think the Bears would fall from 1st to last in the NFC North? How about the Browns? Surging from the 3rd overall pick to 10 wins... anyone see that coming?

Teams emerge year after year... and every team has an "outside shot" at making the playoffs.

WMD
03-01-2008, 11:04 PM
Every year our only hope for having a good season is banking on us being the "surprise team". We need to get some good, young talent so we can eventually *EXPECT WINS* instead of just hoping we get lucky.

Iamcanadian
03-04-2008, 05:09 AM
Ha. I'm hoping that Backus can perform better with an improved supporting cast (what he has this year). Foster looks... well... OK... but, as you said, definitely upgradable.

With the pick invested in IAF, I think it would be worth it to grab Taylor. Instant playmaker and a model for IAF to emulate.

And... I'd do it for a 1st. I'd rather do it for a 2nd, but, if they'd only do it for a 1st, I'd do it.

Note: the MLB situation needs work, as does CB, but I think our SLB position COULD be solidified with Lewis. They keep playing Bailey over him, but I think he'll break out with playing time.

Isn't Quarles still a FA? Sure, he's old, but knows the system and would be an outstanding stopgap.

Taylor is on his last legs and you want to give a 1st for him???? Taylor is worth a 3rd on the open market given his age. No franchise would even give a 2nd for him at this stage of his career and it would be worth it only to a contending franchise.
Your reaching here!

Iamcanadian
03-04-2008, 05:13 AM
Sorry... whether you agree with it or not, the coaches want to win now (and they believe they can). They don't want to draft a young DE, but would rather get a veteran for the position.

And, every team has an outside shot over the next few seasons. Big things happen... trades, injuries, signings... that change the league year after year. Did anyone think the Bears would fall from 1st to last in the NFC North? How about the Browns? Surging from the 3rd overall pick to 10 wins... anyone see that coming?

Teams emerge year after year... and every team has an "outside shot" at making the playoffs.

You forget one factor that completely leaves Detroit out of the loop, Matt Millen. We aren't going anywhere with him as our GM so get used to it Tactical Lion! Cleveland has one of the best young GM's in the business and he has a solid idea on how to rebuild a franchise, Millen hasn't even a clue how to go about it.

Addict
03-04-2008, 04:40 PM
You forget one factor that completely leaves Detroit out of the loop, Matt Millen. We aren't going anywhere with him as our GM so get used to it Tactical Lion! Cleveland has one of the best young GM's in the business and he has a solid idea on how to rebuild a franchise, Millen hasn't even a clue how to go about it.

Yeah the day Millen finally realises he sucks and leaves is the first day of the Detroit Lions' rebuilding project.

TacticaLion
03-04-2008, 07:05 PM
You forget one factor that completely leaves Detroit out of the loop, Matt Millen. We aren't going anywhere with him as our GM so get used to it Tactical Lion! Cleveland has one of the best young GM's in the business and he has a solid idea on how to rebuild a franchise, Millen hasn't even a clue how to go about it.God, that's ridiculous.

Although he has made some bad moves, he has also made some great ones. The team is moving in the right direction and, as he deserves the blame for past mistakes, he deserves credit for making some right decisions.

What's winning to you? A winning record? Playoffs? Super Bowl? Look around at the best GMs in the NFL and tell me which have achieved those accomplishments on a regular basis. How many GMs is that? Not all of them.

We can win games with Millen... we can get a winning record with Millen. And, in the NFC, that can be the playoffs. We can do that with Millen. If it's a Super Bowl you're looking for, not many other GMs accomplish that either.

WMD
03-04-2008, 10:27 PM
It's not like Matt Millen is just now getting started. We've had Millen as our GM for SEVEN Years. We have not had a winning record. We're in our second rebuilding phase with him in charge. We've had SIX Top 10 Picks.. We've had FOUR Head coaches. He's blown virtually every decision he's had to make.

Bootland27
03-04-2008, 11:43 PM
First of all if Jason Taylor found out if he got traded to the lions, the first thing he'd do is ask his agent how to file retirement papers.

Second, There is absolutely nothing wrong with what IAC said about Millen.

And Lastly here we go again, just like the "Gerald Alexander is a great safety" crap. He has made way way more bad moves than good moves. With the position that we've been drafting in since he's been here, we should be a playoff team.

Houston entered the league in 2002 as an EXPANSION team and had their first non-losing season, while playing in a division with 3 playoff teams and arguably the toughest division in football. That's called progress.

Matt Millen has been around a year longer and he's still looking for his 1st non-losing season!!!

Addict
03-05-2008, 02:18 AM
It's not like Matt Millen is just now getting started. We've had Millen as our GM for SEVEN Years. We have not had a winning record. We're in our second rebuilding phase with him in charge. We've had SIX Top 10 Picks.. We've had FOUR Head coaches. He's blown virtually every decision he's had to make.

He does wear nice suits sometimes, solid decision making in that departement.

TacticaLion
03-05-2008, 05:15 AM
Second, There is absolutely nothing wrong with what IAC said about Millen.

You don't see anything ridiculous with this?:

We aren't going anywhere with him as our GM so get used to it Tactical Lion!

IAC seems to think that we'll never with with Millen, and you see nothing wrong with it. If that's the case, why even waste your time with the Lions? Why not pick up another hobby and come back in 2023 when he's gone?

I'm sorry... I don't care how long he has been our GM or how much we've struggled in the past. What... should I stop being a fan? Instead, I'll look at the positive signs: Marinelli, the slight improvement and where we can be after the draft. Millen was here when we only won 3 games, and was also here last year when we won 7. Why can't we eventually win 11 with him here? He could.

It's an absolute statement based on nothing but the past. The future doesn't always follow the same path. There are teams in the NFL that emerge year after year... yes, it's possible that we could be that team (eventually). And, yes, with Millen here.

In other words: I don't like when a realistic post is shot down by one stupid, unreasonable statement. The coaches think we can win now, and it's possible that we can. Whether that's because of Millen, or in spite of Millen, we can win now. It's possible.

Bootland27
03-05-2008, 09:57 PM
You don't see anything ridiculous with this?:

No. I feel the exact same way he does. I think it is you who is being ridiculous.

IAC seems to think that we'll never with with Millen, and you see nothing wrong with it. If that's the case, why even waste your time with the Lions? Why not pick up another hobby and come back in 2023 when he's gone?

I'm sorry... I don't care how long he has been our GM or how much we've struggled in the past. What... should I stop being a fan? Instead, I'll look at the positive signs: Marinelli, the slight improvement and where we can be after the draft. Millen was here when we only won 3 games, and was also here last year when we won 7. Why can't we eventually win 11 with him here? He could.

So if I'm a fan, I can't criticize Millen??? You fail to realize the irreparable damage that he has done to this franchise, let alone how to run one in the first place. He hasn't done anything to deserve a benefit of the doubt. We won 7 games, so what? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. If we win 5-6 games next year, Marinelli is gonna get the pink slip and he'll probably hire John L. Smith as the next coach.

It's an absolute statement based on nothing but the past. The future doesn't always follow the same path. There are teams in the NFL that emerge year after year... yes, it's possible that we could be that team (eventually). And, yes, with Millen here.

Since Millen has been here, Almost every team in the NFL has emerged at some point over the last 6 years....except the Lions. He had no clue when he first started, and still doesn't.

TacticaLion
03-05-2008, 10:13 PM
No. I feel the exact same way he does. I think it is you who is being ridiculous. You feel the exact same way he does... that the Lions will never go anywhere with Millen as our GM? Wow.

I've got a question for you then: why even talk about the Lions on an internet forum? Millen is still the GM, and you believe we'll never win with Millen. Why even discuss drafts and trades and signings and strategy when you believe that it wont matter?

I purpose an idea: trade player (x) for player (y). IAC's response to that idea is "it doesn't matter, we'll never win with Millen". What does that answer provide? Absolutely nothing. He didn't agree or disagree with the trade, and he didn't offer any insight... he just gave his general (and hopeless) opinion of the current team.

You don't think the Lions will ever win with Millen? Fantastic. Great. We get it. It's a complete waste of time and offers nothing to the topic. Instead, why don't you pick a different hobby (or team) that you feel offers hope?

Yeah... and I'm ridiculous.

(Note: I never said Alexander was a great safety... I said he had a great year. Good try, though.)

Bootland27
03-05-2008, 10:29 PM
You feel the exact same way he does... that the Lions will never go anywhere with Millen as our GM? Wow.

I've got a question for you then: why even talk about the Lions on an internet forum? Millen is still the GM, and you believe we'll never win with Millen. Why even discuss drafts and trades and signings and strategy when you believe that it wont matter?

I purpose an idea: trade player (x) for player (y). IAC's response to that idea is "it doesn't matter, we'll never win with Millen". What does that answer provide? Absolutely nothing. He didn't agree or disagree with the trade, and he didn't offer any insight... he just gave his general (and hopeless) opinion of the current team.

You don't think the Lions will ever win with Millen? Fantastic. Great. We get it. It's a complete waste of time and offers nothing to the topic. Instead, why don't you pick a different hobby (or team) that you feel offers hope?

Yeah... and I'm ridiculous.


Whenever there's a topic, whether its trades or drafts, I usually respond with something relevant. In this case I would've just said that Jason Taylor would rather retire. But what got me up in arms is when you defended Millen, and that is what I thought was ridiculous.

(Note: I never said Alexander was a great safety... I said he had a great year. Good try, though.)
That is another reason why you're ridiculous.

TacticaLion
03-05-2008, 10:36 PM
Whenever there's a topic, whether its trades or drafts, I usually respond with something relevant. In this case I would've just said that Jason Taylor would rather retire. But what got me up in arms is when you defended Millen, and that is what I thought was ridiculous.

Yeah, you do... which is what surprised me about your response here.

I wasn't really defending Millen. Sure, I don't think he's all to blame for the mistakes, but I'm encouraged by the direction of the team. Marinelli is doing things the right way, and I believe the team can be successful. Yes... with Millen here.

You don't think the team can be successful with Millen, and I'm willing to say that it's possible. If I honestly thought that the team couldn't possibly be successful (as you and IAC think), I wouldn't be on here posting. I wouldn't care. It just seems like a waste of time to me.

Scotty D
03-05-2008, 10:48 PM
For a man so dumb, he has never had any dumb luck.

Iamcanadian
03-05-2008, 11:56 PM
If you think this team is headed in the right direction, I have to question your reasoning faculty. We have no RT, we are mediocre at LT, we have a mediocre QB, unless KC is suddenly healthy, we have no RB, we lack a star DE, we are looking for a DT, we have 1 LB and need help at CB. To me, it looks like a total rebuild is where we are at and unless Marinelli is around for 5 to 7 more seasons, there is no way he will see a winning record. Is Millen to blame for this void in talent, if it isn't him, who the heck is to blame???
I'll guarantee you that we will be drafting in the top 10 maybe even the top 5 again next year, if that's the improvement your talking about I just don't get it.
I'm a Lion's fan because that is the team I live near and I'll never desert them no matter what. That doesn't mean I'm going to live in some dream world and close my eyes to this mess that Ford/Millen created. The reality is that this team is never going to see the playoffs under Millen and you cannot say that about any other franchise in the NFL. We had Houston, Cleveland and Buffalo as our closest rivals for incompetence for the last decade, guess what, they are all on the rise while we our headed backwards if that is possible.
Anybody who still believes we can be winners under Millen has to be labelled as ridiculous, you label yourself not us.

TacticaLion
03-06-2008, 08:16 AM
If you think this team is headed in the right direction, I have to question your reasoning faculty. We have no RT, we are mediocre at LT, we have a mediocre QB, unless KC is suddenly healthy, we have no RB, we lack a star DE, we are looking for a DT, we have 1 LB and need help at CB. To me, it looks like a total rebuild is where we are at and unless Marinelli is around for 5 to 7 more seasons, there is no way he will see a winning record. Is Millen to blame for this void in talent, if it isn't him, who the heck is to blame??? Umm... the scouting department, for one. Contrary to popular belief, Millen doesn't scout every college player himself and make the decision... they actually have a group of people that get paid to do it. So, yeah, it ultimately falls on him... but that scouting department (that every team has) is horrible. That's a fact.
I'll guarantee you that we will be drafting in the top 10 maybe even the top 5 again next year, if that's the improvement your talking about I just don't get it.Sweet. Guarantee that. Considering the division we're in, I think we can win 7-8 games this year (depending on the draft)... and that'll move us out of the top 10. Lets see how far that guarantee goes.
I'm a Lion's fan because that is the team I live near and I'll never desert them no matter what. That doesn't mean I'm going to live in some dream world and close my eyes to this mess that Ford/Millen created. The reality is that this team is never going to see the playoffs under Millen and you cannot say that about any other franchise in the NFL. We had Houston, Cleveland and Buffalo as our closest rivals for incompetence for the last decade, guess what, they are all on the rise while we our headed backwards if that is possible.
Anybody who still believes we can be winners under Millen has to be labelled as ridiculous, you label yourself not us."I'll never desert them no matter what."... but you believe that they'll never win under Millen. You have absolutely no hope in the team, yet call yourself a fan. I call that a waste of time.

I'll ask it again, IAC: what's being "winners"? Winning season? Playoffs? Super Bowl? I have a feeling that, if we win 9 games, it wouldn't be enough. I also have a feeling that, if we happened to make the playoffs (and lost in the 1st round), it still wouldn't be enough. So, tell me... what's being "winners"?

That is another reason why you're ridiculous.Ha. Funny.

He did have a great year. He did. Only 15 fewer tackles and 1.5 fewer sacks (but 2 more FRecs) than the DPoY... that's a great year. Open your eyes.

Bootland27
03-06-2008, 07:49 PM
Umm... the scouting department, for one. Contrary to popular belief, Millen doesn't scout every college player himself and make the decision... they actually have a group of people that get paid to do it. So, yeah, it ultimately falls on him... but that scouting department (that every team has) is horrible. That's a fact.

LOL. Wow. The scouting dept????? Scouts only offer their recommendations and aren't involved in the decision making process at all. Besides, How do you know that its horrible? You have no legit proof. A desperate attempt by you to pass the buck because you don't have a leg to stand on. It just shows how biased you are.

He did have a great year. He did. Only 15 fewer tackles and 1.5 fewer sacks (but 2 more FRecs) than the DPoY... that's a great year. Open your eyes.

You're obviously smart enough to realize that players' stats don't reflect how good/bad they are. You said this was the case (in another thread) with Backus, and the high amount of sacks he allowed. I agree with that 100%. Why not use the same logic in this case? The lions defense was out on the field as long as any team in the NFL and Colts are not. I mean If Bob Sanders were on the lions, he probably would had 120+ tackles, more sacks, etc...

bearsfan_51
03-06-2008, 08:07 PM
For a man so dumb, he has never had any dumb luck.

Are you kidding? He got hired at a job where there is apparently no accountability, how much luckier can one guy get?

WMD
03-06-2008, 08:15 PM
Are you kidding? He got hired at a job where there is apparently no accountability, how much luckier can one guy get?

Just like Homer Simpson, now that I think about it.. Matt Millen is a real life Homer Simpson.

TacticaLion
03-07-2008, 04:31 PM
LOL. Wow. The scouting dept????? Scouts only offer their recommendations and aren't involved in the decision making process at all. Besides, How do you know that its horrible? You have no legit proof. A desperate attempt by you to pass the buck because you don't have a leg to stand on. It just shows how biased you are.Yeah... the scouting department. They might just make "recommendations", but those "recommendations" are very influential come draft day. Hell, if they weren't, why even have a scouting department?

This is also the second time you've claimed I didn't know what I was talking about and you didn't do the research yourself (the first was Alexander being a "leader" for the team). Many sources have touched on how poor our scouting department is, including Tom Kowalski:

David: Do you think the lions draft poorly or did they ruin those picks (Charles, Joey and Mike)?

Tom Kowalski: I think the evidence is pretty clear that they were just horrible draft picks. This wasn't a situation where any of them went someplace else and turned their career around. It's not like it was a "bad fit'' in Detroit. Harrington just isn't a leader and his being benched by three different teams in three straight seasons is evidence of that. Mike Williams is fat and lazy and even being reunited with his old college coach -- who "understood'' him -- didn't change it. As far as Rogers, he was a gifted player who wasn't mentally strong enough to deal with two straight season-ending collarbone injuries. Still, when you draft a guy who has already flunked one drug test, you'd better have a pretty strong gauge on his character and the Lions didn't.

In fact, they failed to uncover the problem with all three players -- that Harrington wasn't a leader, that Williams didn't really care about football and that Rogers wasn't mentally strong. That's a failure of scouting, no matter how you look at it.
Bo: Just wondering what insights you may have as to the state of the Lions' scouting department. Are you aware of any personnel/system changes? Also, It looked like there were more blitzes during the Chicago game last Sunday. Would you expect that to continue, or was it simply an adjustment made for that particular opponent?

Tom Kowalski: The Lions did make some changes in the scouting department, but nothing significant. This is an area that really needs to be addressed, in not in changing personnel, then in how the conduct business because they're just missing on too many guys. They've got a good job in the first round the last two years, but what else are they getting? When is the last time they had a third- or fifth-round pick light it up in his rookie season or soon after? They just don't find any gems any more.
Marinelli said that if he can't find players who are going to live up to his standard, he is going to make changes.

"If I don't like what I'm getting within that 53 (-man roster), I'll start somebody else, I'll put in somebody else, or I'll cut playing time. They know that," Marinelli said. "So there is an accountability to that if they want to play on this team."

Well, maybe it's time that Millen held his scouting department to the same standard. And maybe, just maybe, it's time that team owner William Clay Ford did the same thing with his front office.

Hondo (who is a more reliable source than you are) has made the same observations:
Hondo
Hi Hondo,
Why do the NFL’s elite teams seem to consistently find the right guy’s, via the draft, for their systems yet we continue to ‘whiff’? Do you believe that the talent scouts have not adequately prepared Lions management for these decisions?
Jesse
I certainly don’t think the Lions scouting department is anywhere close to where it should be. In fact I have talked with folks from other teams and NOT ONE thinks the Lions have a good scouting department. With that said, you don’t prove a scouting department in the first round it is the later rounds and that track record speaks for itself.

Other reputable NFLDC posters have made similar comments:
We also have the worst scouting department in the NFL, its full of Ford's favourites and he cannot find a standard for firing any of them.
ust because our scouting department and GM stink doesn't mean you pass on a franchise QB when one falls into your lap.
I'm tired of you claiming that something I said is false when you obviously didn't spend any time researching it. Pathetic. No leg to stand on? Do you see it now?


You're obviously smart enough to realize that players' stats don't reflect how good/bad they are. You said this was the case (in another thread) with Backus, and the high amount of sacks he allowed. I agree with that 100%. Why not use the same logic in this case? The lions defense was out on the field as long as any team in the NFL and Colts are not. I mean If Bob Sanders were on the lions, he probably would had 120+ tackles, more sacks, etc...You know what's pathetic, Bootland? You did the exact same thing:
Alexander didn't have a great year. He had a nice year, a pretty good year.

OJ Atogwe had a great year. 75 Tk, 8 INTs
Bob Sanders had a great year. 96 Tk, 2 INTs, 3 SCKs (DPOY)

Alexander has a ways to go in order to be a pro-bowl caliber player, but can he be great one day? Absolutely.Some funny ****, huh? Made an argument for players using their stats. I started comparing Alexander's stats to Sanders' stats... when you brought Sanders into it.

Another time you used stats to argue the talent of a player:
I think he can become a great player. He had 2 ints, 2 sacks and 6 PDs. Solid for a rookie but not spectacular, especially in the pass deflection department with so many passes thrown on our defense.I love it.

In other words... I do have reliable sources that say that the scouting department is horrible, and you're the one that started relating stats to success (and Alexander's stats were close to Sanders in 2007).

Have a great day.

Addict
03-07-2008, 05:12 PM
Are you kidding? He got hired at a job where there is apparently no accountability, how much luckier can one guy get?

One could get laid by Natalie Portman, for instance.

Bootland27
03-09-2008, 06:24 PM
I'm impressed that you took time to do the research. You convinced me that the scouts suck, But who do you think hires them? Sorry, but you've attempted to pass blame from Millen onto the scouts over and over and it has failed. All you've established is that the scouts are terrible. The fact that Millen still takes advice from the same $hitty-*** scouting dept or not willing to make changes and find good scouts(if he is able to) is an absolute abortion.

This is also the second time you've claimed I didn't know what I was talking about and you didn't do the research yourself (the first was Alexander being a "leader" for the team).

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showpost.php?p=920429&postcount=12

Not a huge surprise, coming from someone who likes to pass the buck.

Regarding Bob Sanders/Gerald Alexander; I listed the stats, but also indicated that he won DPOY which is not decided upon who has the best stats. Yet you continue to compare the two like fantasy football and won't stop arguing how great he was. I know you're optimistic, but your lack of objectivity in this whole argument is preposterous.

Another time you used stats to argue the talent of a player
The other time I said that, it wasn't in the same context and was a statistical standpoint, unlike this one.

TacticaLion
03-09-2008, 07:08 PM
I'm impressed that you took time to do the research. You convinced me that the scouts suck, But who do you think hires them? Sorry, but you've attempted to pass blame from Millen onto the scouts over and over and it has failed. All you've established is that the scouts are terrible. The fact that Millen still takes advice from the same $hitty-*** scouting dept or not willing to make changes and find good scouts(if he is able to) is an absolute abortion.Yes... Millen has kept *some* of them around... and deserves blame for that. I'll happily give him blame for that. He has been horrible on some of his personnel decisions.

But, most of the **** that Millen takes is because of the draft selections. And, if we can agree that the scouting department is horrible, they should shoulder some of the blame.
Is Millen to blame for this void in talent, if it isn't him, who the heck is to blame???Void of talent - quite a few areas are to blame.

The only truly great move Millen has made was bringing Marinelli to Detroit. I trust Rod 100% and I believe he has this franchise going in the right direction.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showpost.php?p=920429&postcount=12

Not a huge surprise, coming from someone who likes to pass the buck.Pass the buck? I don't get it... when did I pass the buck? You claimed that I had "no clue" about Alexander's presence in the locker room, and I had a few sources that said he was a leader. *shrugs*.

Regarding Bob Sanders/Gerald Alexander; I listed the stats, but also indicated that he won DPOY which is not decided upon who has the best stats. Yet you continue to compare the two like fantasy football and won't stop arguing how great he was. I know you're optimistic, but your lack of objectivity in this whole argument is preposterous.No... you're missing the point.

I don't think that Alexander is anywhere near as good as Sanders and I truly don't think they should be in the same conversation. That being said, Alexander had a great season (IMO). He played each game, made big plays, showed flashes of brilliance and earned the respect of his teammates. The picks, the fumble recoveries, the tackles, the break-ups... I feel he had a great season. Remember; I didn't bring Bob Sanders into the conversation.

That isn't be being a homer and that isn't me being "optimistic". I watched every game and will be the first to say when a player sucks or when a player is playing well. Alexander played very well (and with a lack of talent around him).

I've been told, time and time again in this thread, that I'm ridiculous for believing that the Lions can "win" in the upcoming years. I see a lot of potential in the team, I love the mindset that the players have taken from Marinelli and feel that he's building the team the right way.

It's possible that the Lions can "win"... and believing that shouldn't make me ridiculous.

bearsfan_51
03-09-2008, 07:12 PM
It's ridiculous to blame the scouts for Millen's faults when Millen is the one who appoints and directs them. Being in the military you more than anyone should know that hierarchy works in a way that the head of any entitity is inevitably responsible for its faults. If you're getting faulty information from someone it's still your fault for thinking that they are competent enough to appoint them to an intelligence-gathering position.

Bootland27
03-09-2008, 07:36 PM
Yes... Millen has kept *some* of them around... and deserves blame for that. I'll happily give him blame for that. He has been horrible on some of his personnel decisions.

But, most of the **** that Millen takes is because of the draft selections. And, if we can agree that the scouting department is horrible, they should shoulder some of the blame.

I'd still blame Millen more than the scouts. Maybe something like 75% Millen to 25% scouts. He hired them and if they can't do a good enough job, its his fault for not getting the right scouts.

Pass the buck? I don't get it... when did I pass the buck? You claimed that I had "no clue" about Alexander's presence in the locker room, and I had a few sources that said he was a leader. *shrugs*.

Did you even click on the link??? I didn't claim anything.

No... you're missing the point.

I don't think that Alexander is anywhere near as good as Sanders and I truly don't think they should be in the same conversation. That being said, Alexander had a great season (IMO). He played each game, made big plays, showed flashes of brilliance and earned the respect of his teammates. The picks, the fumble recoveries, the tackles, the break-ups... I feel he had a great season. Remember; I didn't bring Bob Sanders into the conversation.

That isn't be being a homer and that isn't me being "optimistic". I watched every game and will be the first to say when a player sucks or when a player is playing well. Alexander played very well (and with a lack of talent around him).


I watched the games too. He made some good plays but, he also made mistakes at times too (in coverage and missing tackles). In order to be great, he needs to limit his mistakes and continue to fine tune his overall game.

I've been told, time and time again in this thread, that I'm ridiculous for believing that the Lions can "win" in the upcoming years. I see a lot of potential in the team, I love the mindset that the players have taken from Marinelli and feel that he's building the team the right way.

It's possible that the Lions can "win"... and believing that shouldn't make me ridiculous.

We'll see. I'm at the point now where they just need to show me what they can do on the field.

TacticaLion
03-09-2008, 08:11 PM
I'd still blame Millen more than the scouts. Maybe something like 75% Millen to 25% scouts. He hired them and if they can't do a good enough job, its his fault for not getting the right scouts. And I'd agree with you. Which was my point...

IAC said that Millen was the only one to blame, and you agreed with him. My point was that there's more to blame than Millen... the scouting department included. Yes, he hired them, but didn't hire them expecting them to be horrible. It's similar to the Harrington situation: they didn't draft him thinking he'd be horrible. Year after year, they hoped he'd improve... a minor change here, a tweak there... he'll come around, right? It never happened. The same is most likely true about the scouting department.

So, my only point was that it wasn't all on Millen... and it seems we can agree on that now.

Did you even click on the link??? I didn't claim anything.You said this:And as far as team leader, how would you know that. You can't tell who is the leader in the locker room.You questioned my statement about Alexander, and I gave you proof.

We'll see. I'm at the point now where they just need to show me what they can do on the field.Wait... you no longer think it's impossible for the Lions to "win" under Millen? You called me ridiculous, over and over, for thinking they can.

You don't see anything ridiculous with this?:
We aren't going anywhere with him as our GM so get used to it Tactical Lion!No. I feel the exact same way he does. I think it is you who is being ridiculous.I think it's possible that we can "go somewhere" with Millen as our GM (and, more importantly, Marinelli as our coach).

TacticaLion
03-09-2008, 08:29 PM
It's ridiculous to blame the scouts for Millen's faults when Millen is the one who appoints and directs them. Being in the military you more than anyone should know that hierarchy works in a way that the head of any entitity is inevitably responsible for its faults. If you're getting faulty information from someone it's still your fault for thinking that they are competent enough to appoint them to an intelligence-gathering position.No.

Being in the military has taught me that blame must be appointed. Someone must be held accountable for failure, regardless if that person is actually responsible for the mistakes. Knowing that someone must be blamed, you realize that administering blame becomes a routine and not a reaction.

Once you realize that blame must follow failure (in life, war and sports), you learn that those blamed aren't always those responsible. Yeah, Millen is responsible for the failure of his scouts, but it's the scouts that first failed. It's not like Madden... the scouts didn't have a rating assigned to them. He chose who he thought would succeed and they didn't. It's his fault... but it's also theirs.

bearsfan_51
03-09-2008, 08:45 PM
Ok. Sooo...it's his fault. It doesn't matter why it's his fault. Maybe he had an evil elf that snuck into the draft day room and made all of the picks for him. Regardless, he allowed it to happen, and he is the one responsible for the product, so it's his fault.

bearsfan_51
03-09-2008, 08:48 PM
To put it another way, if I'm hired as a CEO, my primary responsibility is to make sure the value of my company's stock increases.

Perhaps the stock decreases because my company makes an inferior product due to the fact that they hired a bunch of dumbasses in some remote city that is about 20 notches below my direct authority. It doesn't matter. My stock went down when I'm the head honcho, therefore it's my head more than anyone else.

TacticaLion
03-09-2008, 09:16 PM
To put it another way, if I'm hired as a CEO, my primary responsibility is to make sure the value of my company's stock increases.

Perhaps the stock decreases because my company makes an inferior product due to the fact that they hired a bunch of dumbasses in some remote city that is about 20 notches below my direct authority. It doesn't matter. My stock went down when I'm the head honcho, therefore it's my head more than anyone else.More than anyone else... that's my point.

I blame Millen... I do. I give him quite a bit of the blame. But, he isn't the only person to blame.

You said it yourself: "more than anyone else". That implies that others are also to be blamed... but he deserves more blame than anyone else. I give him most of it, but was trying to make the point that he isn't the only one to blame.

It looks like my point was understood.

TacticaLion
03-09-2008, 09:41 PM
Ok. Sooo...it's his fault. It doesn't matter why it's his fault. Maybe he had an evil elf that snuck into the draft day room and made all of the picks for him. Regardless, he allowed it to happen, and he is the one responsible for the product, so it's his fault.

Yeah... but listen to what you're saying. Sure, he'll take the blame, but it was really the "evil elf" that did something wrong (and security could be blamed for letting him in).

In terms of holding someone accountable, Millen is to blame. But, logically, we both know that the elf sabotaged the draft and security didn't stop him.

(Lets use a military example: our LtCol is the highest-ranking Marine at my current duty station. He's responsible for everything; the Marines, the compound and everything in between. Lets say an angry Cpl gets his hand on the armory lock combination, grabs a M16A2 and kills himself. The LtCol would be immediately relieved and his career would most likely end. Was he "responsible" for the incident? Yes. Did he have anything to do with it? No. The armorer is to blame... he let the combination get out... but, although he'd be reprimanded, the LtCol's career was ruined from this one situation.

You can train a unit for years, but incidents happen. Blame becomes a routine and not a reaction... and, those with common sense can look past the routine and make the decision for themselves.)

Bootland27
03-09-2008, 10:45 PM
You said this:

You questioned my statement about Alexander, and I gave you proof.

:confused:

TL, put down the the crack pipe.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18787

It was from this thread, particularly #4-12. I don't see myself anywhere in that sequence.


Wait... you no longer think it's impossible for the Lions to "win" under Millen? You called me ridiculous, over and over, for thinking they can.
No I still do. I was referring to Marinelli and his influence.

bearsfan_51
03-09-2008, 11:24 PM
Yeah... but listen to what you're saying. Sure, he'll take the blame, but it was really the "evil elf" that did something wrong (and security could be blamed for letting him in).

In terms of holding someone accountable, Millen is to blame. But, logically, we both know that the elf sabotaged the draft and security didn't stop him.

(Lets use a military example: our LtCol is the highest-ranking Marine at my current duty station. He's responsible for everything; the Marines, the compound and everything in between. Lets say an angry Cpl gets his hand on the armory lock combination, grabs a M16A2 and kills himself. The LtCol would be immediately relieved and his career would most likely end. Was he "responsible" for the incident? Yes. Did he have anything to do with it? No. The armorer is to blame... he let the combination get out... but, although he'd be reprimanded, the LtCol's career was ruined from this one situation.

You can train a unit for years, but incidents happen. Blame becomes a routine and not a reaction... and, those with common sense can look past the routine and make the decision for themselves.)
That's all fine and good, but unless you're part of the Lions organization you have no idea how the actual dynamics operate. Of course the people that blame Millen for everything don't either, but as a figurehead he becomes the obvious target for their angst.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
03-10-2008, 09:20 AM
That's all fine and good, but unless you're part of the Lions organization you have no idea how the actual dynamics operate. Of course the people that blame Millen for everything don't either, but as a figurehead he becomes the obvious target for their angst.

Exactly unless you know how his decisions came about and what happened in the draft room, then you can't just put the blame all on Millen. Millen has a lot of the blame because decisons were made, but you have to know the reasoning behind those decisions. And maybe that is why Ford is keeping Millen around.

Who knows maybe Mooch begged Millen to take Mike Williams. Once Mooch was gone, Millen was pretty quick to get rid of Williams. I know Millen loves WRs. But as a former hard nosed LB, why would he love WRs. Offensive minded Mariucci and a West Coast offense may have had a lot to do with it.

TacticaLion
03-10-2008, 09:34 AM
That's all fine and good, but unless you're part of the Lions organization you have no idea how the actual dynamics operate. Of course the people that blame Millen for everything don't either, but as a figurehead he becomes the obvious target for their angst.
This argument (before you entered) wasn't about administering blame... it was holding someone responsible for the failure. IAC said it was only Millen and I argued that there are others who are also responsible for it. You've taken a different (and obvious) approach (we know Millen receives all of the blame), and it really doesn't apply to the conversation.

TacticaLion
03-10-2008, 09:38 AM
:confused:

TL, put down the the crack pipe.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18787

It was from this thread, particularly #4-12. I don't see myself anywhere in that sequence. It's official... I've gotten you confused with MNYM2. Happens... apologies.
No I still do. I was referring to Marinelli and his influence.What!? You still think it's impossible for the Lions to "win" under Millen?

I've been told, time and time again in this thread, that I'm ridiculous for believing that the Lions can "win" in the upcoming years. I see a lot of potential in the team, I love the mindset that the players have taken from Marinelli and feel that he's building the team the right way.

It's possible that the Lions can "win"... and believing that shouldn't make me ridiculous.
We'll see. I'm at the point now where they just need to show me what they can do on the field.It doesn't sound like you think it's impossible from that statement.

Although I could really care less.

bearsfan_51
03-10-2008, 10:16 AM
This argument (before you entered) wasn't about administering blame... it was holding someone responsible for the failure. IAC said it was only Millen and I argued that there are others who are also responsible for it. You've taken a different (and obvious) approach (we know Millen receives all of the blame), and it really doesn't apply to the conversation.
No, my point is that it's not anymore of an illogical statement that the Lions can't win with Millen as it is that they can. In fact, he's got 6-7 years of history on his side. Even if Millen isn't totally responsible for all of the errors (and none of us really know), he has still presided over a totally incompetent organization. Therefore, it's not illogical at all to assume that so long as he is in charge, it will continue to be incompetent, regardless of whether he is individually responsible for every mistake.

This is why GM's and coaches are fired, and why Millen should have been fired 5 years ago.

TacticaLion
03-10-2008, 10:38 AM
No, my point is that it's not anymore of an illogical statement that the Lions can't win with Millen as it is that they can. In fact, he's got 6-7 years of history on his side. Even if Millen isn't totally responsible for all of the errors (and none of us really know), he has still presided over a totally incompetent organization. Therefore, it's not illogical at all to assume that so long as he is in charge, it will continue to be incompetent, regardless of whether he is individually responsible for every mistake.

This is why GM's and coaches are fired, and why Millen should have been fired 5 years ago.OK. So, if his track record of poor decisions as a GM means, to you, that he'll continue to make poor decisions... and, the losing while he has been GM means the team will continue to lose with him as GM... what about Marinelli?

First season: 3-13. Second season: 7-9. So far, the team has only improved while Marinelli has been coach. Is it reasonable for me to say that they will definitely continue to improve because that's all they've done under Marinelli? No... it isn't. Hell, you may think so (or should think so)... you seem to think that's the way life (and sports) work.

The team is moving in the right direction, but past failures (or success) do not determine future outcomes. Millen made many early mistakes, but has since made many correct decisions. What happened in the past with Millen... drafting Harrington (the logical pick), CRog (a projected star) and MWilliams ("future HoF")... are behind us. Because of those decisions, we've had a horrible few years. But, the team is moving in the right direction now... and those situations are in the past.

bearsfan_51
03-10-2008, 10:52 AM
Or you could say that Marinelli is 1-7 in his last 8 games, it's all in how you break it down. I don't see the Lions as having momentum on their side at all. Clearly you do, but it's a cold day in hell when you look at anything pertaining to the Lions without the rosiest of glasses. Even fellow Lions fans think you're a homer.

The Bears went 6-10 in 2000, then went 13-3 in 2001, and back to 4-12 in 2002. Why? Becuase we were run by morons. Bad organizations are bad organizations, even if they have a few positive blips here and there. I'm not saying the Lions will unequivocally never make the playoffs with Millen in charge, but it's not that hard to make the case that they won't.

TacticaLion
03-10-2008, 11:14 AM
Or you could say that Marinelli is 1-7 in his last 8 games, it's all in how you break it down. I don't see the Lions as having momentum on their side at all. Clearly you do, but it's a cold day in hell when you look at anything pertaining to the Lions without the rosiest of glasses. Even fellow Lions fans think you're a homer. First of all, I could care less what other Lions fans think. I don't post on here for popularity or to make friends, and I don't care if others agree with me.

OK... Marinelli is 1-7 in his last 8 games. Millen is 7-9 in his last season... an improvement from previous years. You're right, it's all how you break it down, which is why it's unreasonable to think that it's impossible for the Lions to win with Millen as GM because he has struggled in the past. The past means nothing... but I think this team is moving in the right direction.

Believe what you want, but I'm not a homer. I don't think the Lions are a great team in the NFL, but I think they can win some games. As horrible as they finished the season last year, they were 2 wins away from making the playoffs. All hope is not lost.
The Bears went 6-10 in 2000, then went 13-3 in 2001, and back to 4-12 in 2002. Why? Becuase we were run by morons. Bad organizations are bad organizations, even if they have a few positive blips here and there. I'm not saying the Lions will unequivocally never make the playoffs with Millen in charge, but it's not that hard to make the case that they won't.That's exactly what others have said (and what I'm arguing against). IAC and Bootland have both said that it's impossible to win with Millen as GM... and I find that statement ridiculous (anyone with common sense would agree). That's my only point in this argument... that it isn't impossible.