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Bootland27
09-23-2007, 09:05 PM
12 carries - 39 yds
Part of it was the score, part of it was the inability, take your pick.

I think they took themselves outta this game early, not only because of their defense not being able to do anything, but they tried to get into a track meet meet with the eagles. And by the time martz decided to slow the pace down and try to power it up and go with a different look, it was the 3rd qtr and already a blowout at 42-21.

This is a flawed formula and not winning football.

Xiomera
09-23-2007, 09:10 PM
Is Martz overrated? Yeah, he might be.

Is Martz one of football's 5 best Offensive Coordinators? Yeah, I would say so.

I don't really care that they don't run the ball, or even try for that matter.

Bootland27
09-23-2007, 09:23 PM
Is Martz overrated? Yeah, he might be.

Is Martz one of football's 5 best Offensive Coordinators? Yeah, I would say so.

I don't really care that they don't run the ball, or even try for that matter.

All it does is make you look good statswise, but when it comes to bottom line, it leads to fewer wins than losses.

TacticaLion
09-23-2007, 09:24 PM
God. We lose 1 game, and these threads start popping up.

Yes, he doesn't like to run the ball. We know that.

We were down most of the game, which will lead to more passing attempts.

Our OLine is in shambles.

Now, lets start threads about how overrated Ol' Roy is and how he needs to be traded... or how Kitna is washed up and can't play the game anymore... or how CJ81 is weak and wasn't worth the pick. Lets mention how we're just like the old Lions, how we're the worst team in the NFL and how horrible of a job Marinelli has done with the mindset of our team.

Yes, "fans"... this is all correct. We lost a game. We wont win another. The season is over. We're the old Lions again.

Geo
09-23-2007, 09:27 PM
Martz loves to push the ball down the field, but his quarterbacks get killed because of it and they produce high interceptions totals (I'm sure being hit all game and having pressure down your neck doesn't help in that regard).

TheMadLionsFan
09-23-2007, 10:03 PM
hmmm.....would you rather have this offense or the Wet Toast Offense of Mariucci....come on....it obviously we don't have the personel to run the ball consistantly

Green Bay Scat
09-23-2007, 10:05 PM
im pretty sure the packers had about the same amount of rushing yards, yet we beat SD. Philly just had it on for that day, forget this game, and look forward to the next, u still got a chance to go to the playoffs, i mean its the 3rd game for god sakes

Addict
09-24-2007, 02:44 AM
? is this he week 3 overreaction thread?

TacticaLion
09-24-2007, 04:42 AM
? is this he week 3 overreaction thread?

Ding ding ding!

If I had an award, you'd be the recipient of it.

Addict
09-24-2007, 08:10 AM
Ding ding ding!

If I had an award, you'd be the recipient of it.

I'd like to thank God, my mom, all my friends and everyone who made this possible.... thank you for this fantastic honor!

TacticaLion
09-24-2007, 11:06 AM
I'd like to thank God, my mom, all my friends and everyone who made this possible.... thank you for this fantastic honor!Just wait for the next loss... it'll be Marinelli AND Millen on signs and shirts.

Bootland27
09-24-2007, 11:59 AM
? is this he week 3 overreaction thread?

yep.....http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13054

LionSmack
09-24-2007, 12:07 PM
Hell yes Martz is overrated. And I would say that even if the Lions had won yesterday.

Every mention the Lions get in any media, Martz' name is used. I've seen phrases like, "If Martz can run the ball, the Lions have a chance."

The way his name is used, you'd think he was the head coach, starting QB, and waterboy all rolled into one.

Yes he is a genius of the passing game, but no single person, never mind an assistant coach, could possibly be as important to a team as people make Martz out to be.

Scotty D
09-24-2007, 01:01 PM
Was Martz running the defense?

P-L
09-24-2007, 03:31 PM
In the first two games, when we ran the ball, we ran it with decent success. Yesterday's game, we didn't have the opportunity to run the ball. When you are down 21-35 points the whole game, you NEED to pass.

TacticaLion
09-24-2007, 04:02 PM
In the first two games, when we ran the ball, we ran it with decent success. Yesterday's game, we didn't have the opportunity to run the ball. When you are down 21-35 points the whole game, you NEED to pass.

Exactly. If they run the ball down 21-35, they lose the game. If they pass down 21-35, fans crucify them for not running the ball enough.

It's 1 loss. The coaches aren't panicking and neither are the players. Give them time to work and prove themselves.

P-L
09-24-2007, 07:10 PM
I'm not in full panic mode yet. If the Bears (who have injuries on defense and a bad offense) beat us 35, then I'll panic. I don't think we have a shot at winning next week, but I'd like to see us remain competitive.

TacticaLion
09-24-2007, 07:56 PM
I'm not in full panic mode yet. If the Bears (who have injuries on defense and a bad offense) beat us 35, then I'll panic. I don't think we have a shot at winning next week, but I'd like to see us remain competitive.
I think the Eagles are a better team than many thought. McNabb played like his old self (granted, our coverage was horrible), Westbrook broke out and their lines dominated ours.

Next week will be a big test. If Kitna gets constant pressure, there's really not a chance. But, I'd rather play a horrible offense and a good defense than the other way around.

king2am
09-24-2007, 09:36 PM
Although the lack of a running game is major problem in Detroit, I think it's much bigger than that.

And to find the answer is to dig up the same old grave: When you spend your draft picks on offense, Harrington, Jones, Williams, Williams, Rogers, Johnson, (in no specific order) and neglect the defense, you will find the Lions in games like the Eagles game.

Think Dre Bly could have shut down Curtis? I do.

Nerv
09-24-2007, 09:46 PM
Although the lack of a running game is major problem in Detroit, I think it's much bigger than that.

And to find the answer is to dig up the same old grave: When you spend your draft picks on offense, Harrington, Jones, Williams, Williams, Rogers, Johnson, (in no specific order) and neglect the defense, you will find the Lions in games like the Eagles game.

Think Dre Bly could have shut down Curtis? I do.

Maybe in man to man, but Lions just drop back into zone every play. I mean if you looked at some of the coverages (im not talking the deep balls) the lions CB's were back 10 yards of the WR and simply let them run routes to open spots to make easy catches.

Average OT LB
09-24-2007, 09:50 PM
i thought it was public knowledge that mike martz isnt really all that special.. but instead thats hes a guy who really good at getting wr open at the price of sacrificing his qbs protection.. so like .. a one dimensional guy..

king2am
09-24-2007, 11:13 PM
Maybe in man to man, but Lions just drop back into zone every play. I mean if you looked at some of the coverages (im not talking the deep balls) the lions CB's were back 10 yards of the WR and simply let them run routes to open spots to make easy catches.


Bly was just an example of the lack of priority that Detroit has in defensive players. Ernie Sims is that only name that truly comes to mind.


The point is, the problem is much larger than Martz and his pass heavy playcalling.

Addict
09-25-2007, 04:49 AM
oh please we were all happy to see Dre Bly pack his bags and head for Denver. Let's not question every single decision because we lost!

In all fairness, we got owned by a team that is much better than ours. Let's not act surprised because our D is full of holes and our defensive backfield is non-existant, we knew this even before the preseason.

When Millen selected Calvin Johnson and Drew Stanton with the first two picks it secured it's place (at least passing-wise) amongst the league's finest, but they also cemented the defense as a bottom 10. We just suck at pass D, run D is decent, but unspectacular. Hell we have three players on defense: Corey Redding, Shaun Rogers and Ernie Sims, all the other ones are there for decoration purposes. I understand this was a tough loss, we all got a bit carried away with our 2-game winning streak and forgot we can't play defense.

Next year's draft will have to be a defensive one and then the defense will slowly, very slowly get better. Now stop acting like toddlers.

Iamcanadian
09-25-2007, 01:28 PM
I don't care who the coach is, he can only do so much with the talent the GM provides him with. Kitna is far from the prototype QB that Martz is used to but what choice does he have? As for running the ball, Martz only considers it occassionally but when your getting whipped badly no coach is going to run the ball and take time off the clock. Loosing QB's almost always put up huge passing #'s when their team is being blown out.
The real question is 'where was Marinelli's defense'? He was hired for his ability to teach defense so where is it???

TacticaLion
09-25-2007, 01:33 PM
I don't care who the coach is, he can only do so much with the talent the GM provides him with. Kitna is far from the prototype QB that Martz is used to but what choice does he have? As for running the ball, Martz only considers it occassionally but when your getting whipped badly no coach is going to run the ball and take time off the clock. Loosing QB's almost always put up huge passing #'s when their team is being blown out.
The real question is 'where was Marinelli's defense'? He was hired for his ability to teach defense so where is it???
It was sacrificed when they decided to draft for offense (and when Bullocks, one of his high D picks, was injured for the season).
oh please we were all happy to see Dre Bly pack his bags and head for Denver. Let's not question every single decision because we lost!

In all fairness, we got owned by a team that is much better than ours. Let's not act surprised because our D is full of holes and our defensive backfield is non-existant, we knew this even before the preseason.

When Millen selected Calvin Johnson and Drew Stanton with the first two picks it secured it's place (at least passing-wise) amongst the league's finest, but they also cemented the defense as a bottom 10. We just suck at pass D, run D is decent, but unspectacular. Hell we have three players on defense: Corey Redding, Shaun Rogers and Ernie Sims, all the other ones are there for decoration purposes. I understand this was a tough loss, we all got a bit carried away with our 2-game winning streak and forgot we can't play defense.

Next year's draft will have to be a defensive one and then the defense will slowly, very slowly get better. Now stop acting like toddlers.Post of the year. Word for word.

Thanks for dropping the truth on them, Addict.

(Not fair... I wanna rep you again, but it wont let me.)

Iamcanadian
09-25-2007, 01:51 PM
It was sacrificed when they decided to draft for offense (and when Bullocks, one of his high D picks, was injured for the season).
Post of the year. Word for word.

Thanks for dropping the truth on them, Addict.

(Not fair... I wanna rep you again, but it wont let me.)

I think you and Addict are right on. The draft surprised me and I took from it that Martz had Millen's ear and Marinelli got screwed. I could rational Johnson but how could Millen not take some defense with his 2nd pick. it's not like we absolutely had to have a QB this year. Anybody with any sense could see that our defense needed help, except Millen I guess.
I hate to say it but I got the feeling that Marinelli isn't strong enough to get his way with Millen and Martz is. I don't believe that Marinelli wanted Stanton over a defensive player and accepted willingly the fact that his defense would stink. Marinelli seems like a guy who was hired for a # of reasons but one was certainly his loyalty to an organization and his GM. He won't rock the boat like Mooch did and criticize the GM. He'll accept whatever happens within the organization without a whimper and act like he is on board.
Well, here's hoping that defense is the direction not only of the draft but also FA.

Bootland27
09-25-2007, 02:51 PM
Its obvious, nobody runs the ball when they're down by 3 touchdowns and are trying to play catchup. But here's the problem that I do have with Martz:

In the 1st qtr, I don't remember him calling more than 4 running plays, when the game was still relatively close 14-7 and 21-7. Its a 2 TD defecit but you still have 3 whole Qtrs left. Instead he scraps it completely, and does nothing but call pass plays.

Then at the start of the 3rd qtr, he does try to run the ball but its 15 mins too late and already a blowout.

I have a friend in STL, who kinda shares the same thoughts when Martz was there.
He called a double reverse from his own 2yd line.

In Superbowl 36? when they played the pats, Marshall Faulk only touched the ball 9 times.


Find me a team in the history of the NFL that has even made the playoffs, when they attempt to throw the ball on an avg. of 45 times a game.

TacticaLion
09-25-2007, 03:14 PM
Find me a team in the history of the NFL that has even made the playoffs, when they attempt to throw the ball on an avg. of 45 times a game.
Averaging 45 passes a game is completely irrelevant... with a horrible defense, a bad team will be forced to pass more than a good offense with a great defense.

Look at the Colts. They pass quite a bit but, since they're (usually) always leading late in the game, they just hand the ball off 10-20 times to finish it off.

There are always pass-first teams in the playoffs. The fact that the Lions don't have an defense leaves the games close, which forces us to pass the ball the entire game (instead of handing it off to run the clock down).

king2am
09-25-2007, 06:28 PM
oh please we were all happy to see Dre Bly pack his bags and head for Denver. Let's not question every single decision because we lost!

In all fairness, we got owned by a team that is much better than ours. Let's not act surprised because our D is full of holes and our defensive backfield is non-existant, we knew this even before the preseason.

When Millen selected Calvin Johnson and Drew Stanton with the first two picks it secured it's place (at least passing-wise) amongst the league's finest, but they also cemented the defense as a bottom 10. We just suck at pass D, run D is decent, but unspectacular. Hell we have three players on defense: Corey Redding, Shaun Rogers and Ernie Sims, all the other ones are there for decoration purposes. I understand this was a tough loss, we all got a bit carried away with our 2-game winning streak and forgot we can't play defense.

Next year's draft will have to be a defensive one and then the defense will slowly, very slowly get better. Now stop acting like toddlers.



Addict, maybe I didn't make my point clear, and I apologize. I will re-word myself.
I am not saying Dre Bly would have been the savior to this defense. Instead, what I was trying to get across was the Lack of Priority the Lions place in Defensive players.
And I then meant to say that the lack of priority in Defense in Detroit, is more to blame for the Lions loss on Sunday, and their poor performance the last few years, RATHER than the pass heavy play calling.
I agree with the statement that the next draft needs to be defensive, but what I meant by bringing up past drafts is that this team should have gone defense a long time ago, and instead did not.


You can make an average defense look good by keeping it off the field. You can make an average defense look poor by keeping it ON the field. This is what Martz's ego can not digest.

TacticaLion
09-25-2007, 06:38 PM
I am not saying Dre Bly would have been the savior to this defense. Instead, what I was trying to get across was the Lack of Priority the Lions place in Defensive players.

There's a BIG difference between a "lack of priority in defensive players" and how the Lions make character their main priority. Dre' Bly was a cancer in the locker room, as was James Hall and that other DT that publicly complained (forgot his name). They'd rather field an average 11 players who work hard, never stop and love the game than a "good" 11 players that *****, complain and don't give a **** about the team. I agree with the coaches on that decision.

And, after watching Bly get completely ran over by Fred Taylor, I'm glad he's gone. He got us Foster (an upgrade) and Bell (a solid player) in the process. Well worth it.

Addict
09-25-2007, 06:39 PM
Addict, maybe I didn't make my point clear, and I apologize. I will re-word myself.
I am not saying Dre Bly would have been the savior to this defense. Instead, what I was trying to get across was the Lack of Priority the Lions place in Defensive players.
And I then meant to say that the lack of priority in Defense in Detroit, is more to blame for the Lions loss on Sunday, and their poor performance the last few years, RATHER than the pass heavy play calling.
I agree with the statement that the next draft needs to be defensive, but what I meant by bringing up past drafts is that this team should have gone defense a long time ago, and instead did not.


You can make an average defense look good by keeping it off the field. You can make an average defense look poor by keeping it ON the field. This is what Martz's ego can not digest.

Ah, now I see your point. And it's a valid one as well...

True the emphasis has been heavily on the offense, but with a OC like Martz, who albeit overrated is one of the best at his job, you can't afford not to have playmakers on O. Yes we neglected the defense, and yes we could have done much better had we invested more money into FA, but on the other hand I understand what Marinelli is trying to do. Basically he refuses to pay big contracts for veterans who he can't build on. So he waits his turn to draft. Now this takes patience and that's something that we as fans have little of as result of a million losing seasons.

Last years draft, I feel would have gone way different had CJ not been in it. We went pure BPA, and although I still feel a tradedown for a Patrick Willis or even further down for Darelle Revis may have helped our team more, you also got to look at the player you could have, and CJ is one hell of a commodity. Marinelli will get his shot next year and with a much deeper class of linebackers and with a few very good corners in the pool, I feel this could be Marinelli's dream draft as far as building blocks and cornerstones go.

So to respond to your point, yes, the emphasis has been offense and the balance has been unequal for a long long time now. But Marinelli is still a defensive coach and he's given Martz what he wants this year (Martz loved CJ and adored Stanton) and I fully expect Marinelli to go crazy on defensive picks next year. So lack of balance, yes, but not an inexplainable one. Fixable? I think so, but it may take a year, maybe two more until this strategy that I feel they're playing out takes effect.

TacticaLion
09-25-2007, 06:51 PM
Last years draft, I feel would have gone way different had CJ not been in it. We went pure BPA, and although I still feel a tradedown for a Patrick Willis or even further down for Darelle Revis may have helped our team more, you also got to look at the player you could have, and CJ is one hell of a commodity. Marinelli will get his shot next year and with a much deeper class of linebackers and with a few very good corners in the pool, I feel this could be Marinelli's dream draft as far as building blocks and cornerstones go. Agree completely. I wanted to go a different direction, but we grabbed a true stud and our potential QB of the future.

If you look at the past draft, though, it kinda makes sense. Sims (OLB), Bullocks (FS) and Brian Calhoun (RB), then CJ (WR), Stanton (QB), IAF (DE) and Alexander (FS). Two defense, then offense... and, the following year, two offense, then defense.

Lets hope they stay consistent and target two defensive players this year.

Addict
09-25-2007, 07:22 PM
Agree completely. I wanted to go a different direction, but we grabbed a true stud and our potential QB of the future.

If you look at the past draft, though, it kinda makes sense. Sims (OLB), Bullocks (FS) and Brian Calhoun (RB), then CJ (WR), Stanton (QB), IAF (DE) and Alexander (FS). Two defense, then offense... and, the following year, two offense, then defense.

Lets hope they stay consistent and target two defensive players this year.

sssssssssssssssssssssssssht don't jinx it!

P-L
09-25-2007, 07:41 PM
I think Marinelli has the defense headed in the right direction, the Lions just need to give him a chance to build it up. Last year's draft wasn't very good from a defensive stand point. We have the starting pieces, but we need Millen to allow Marinelli to add more pieces and build a finished product. We already have a very promising DL. Two of the more dominant DT in the league are locked up for a long time. Dewayne White, who is very solid is playing well so far. Ernie Sims is a stud at WLB, and it looks like we have our future safeties in Daniel Bullocks (assuming he comes back from injury) and Gerald Alexander (easily our best DB this season, although that doesn't say much). We still need an every down DE, MLB, SLB, and two starting corners (and maybe another safety). When three of your four defensive backs are among the worst at their position in terms of coverage, you are going to have major problems. When your stud WLB not only has to do his job, but help make up for the mistakes made by the other two LB, you are going to have major problems. When your DL goes up against an OL having the kind of day the Eagles OL had and you have a weak back seven, you are going to have major problems.

detroit4life
09-25-2007, 08:58 PM
Im not sure we'll see much from the running game until KJ is 100 percent. im not sure Martz is impressed with bell right now and with KJ's physical presence i think he will go back to running more. But the Eagles game was an exception to all of that because we simply couldnt stop their offense we had to go to the air early and often. The defense is terrible we all know that and loosing bullocks hurt. This draft should be all defense since last year we shored up a lot of our offense

TacticaLion
09-25-2007, 09:00 PM
Im not sure we'll see much from the running game until KJ is 100 percent. im not sure Martz is impressed with bell right now and with KJ's physical presence i think he will go back to running more. But the Eagles game was an exception to all of that because we simply couldnt stop their offense we had to go to the air early and often. The defense is terrible we all know that and loosing bullocks hurt. This draft should be all defense since last year we shored up a lot of our offense
Word for word.

This draft/offseason should improve our team a lot... the opportunity to gain a lot and lose little.

detroit4life
09-25-2007, 09:24 PM
Word for word.

This draft/offseason should improve our team a lot... the opportunity to gain a lot and lose little.

They have some decisions to make with Bailey and Lehman and i do hope they keep both if not one of them.

They are going to add a lot of pieces to this defense this year. I think the reason they didnt add as much last offseason was because since all the players were learning a new system they probly had a hard time telling who is just bad and whose learning the system. Its a whole different story now this year because everyone should know the system. I expect them to do a huge overhaul on this defense this off season

Bootland27
09-25-2007, 09:27 PM
Im not sure we'll see much from the running game until KJ is 100 percent. im not sure Martz is impressed with bell right now and with KJ's physical presence i think he will go back to running more. But the Eagles game was an exception to all of that because we simply couldnt stop their offense we had to go to the air early and often. The defense is terrible we all know that and loosing bullocks hurt. This draft should be all defense since last year we shored up a lot of our offense

No question the defense needs to be addressed next offseason. But, OL (depending on how they fare for the rest of the season) may also have to be addressed if we still can't protect kitna.

Iamcanadian
09-26-2007, 05:54 AM
There's a BIG difference between a "lack of priority in defensive players" and how the Lions make character their main priority. Dre' Bly was a cancer in the locker room, as was James Hall and that other DT that publicly complained (forgot his name). They'd rather field an average 11 players who work hard, never stop and love the game than a "good" 11 players that *****, complain and don't give a **** about the team. I agree with the coaches on that decision.

And, after watching Bly get completely ran over by Fred Taylor, I'm glad he's gone. He got us Foster (an upgrade) and Bell (a solid player) in the process. Well worth it.

Ya, we got character on our team and it is sure paying off big time. Unfortunately if we loose a few more games like the Eagles game another 3 or 4 guys will complain about the team stinking, rotten coaching and being in a rotten organization. But don't worry, we can dump them next year for more character guys.
Ya, losing teams are always getting rid of bad character and bringing in good character. It has done wonders for Atlanta, Buffalo, and Oakland.
I feel so sorry for NE who brings in all those bad character guys like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss, they sure bring down that team, or Dallas with Terrell Owens. Ya, winning teams never have bad character guys on their teams, selfish guys who like to play for themselves and win.
Ya, if Roy Williams starts to complain about losing or Redding or Sims, we had better dump them and start all over or could it be than most complainers just hate to lose all the time and would perfer to play for an organization which cares about winning.
Ya, if there is one thing that seperates Detroit from the top teams, it's all the character we have. Those top teams must really envy us.
Just goes along with Ford's statement that he cannot find a reason to fire Matt Millen, great character is all Ford cares about as well.

king2am
09-26-2007, 07:13 AM
Ya, we got character on our team and it is sure paying off big time. Unfortunately if we loose a few more games like the Eagles game another 3 or 4 guys will complain about the team stinking, rotten coaching and being in a rotten organization. But don't worry, we can dump them next year for more character guys.
Ya, losing teams are always getting rid of bad character and bringing in good character. It has done wonders for Atlanta, Buffalo, and Oakland.
I feel so sorry for NE who brings in all those bad character guys like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss, they sure bring down that team, or Dallas with Terrell Owens. Ya, winning teams never have bad character guys on their teams, selfish guys who like to play for themselves and win.
Ya, if Roy Williams starts to complain about losing or Redding or Sims, we had better dump them and start all over or could it be than most complainers just hate to lose all the time and would perfer to play for an organization which cares about winning.
Ya, if there is one thing that seperates Detroit from the top teams, it's all the character we have. Those top teams must really envy us.
Just goes along with Ford's statement that he cannot find a reason to fire Matt Millen, great character is all Ford cares about as well.



While his response was to MY original post about letting Bly go, I feel you mis understood what he was trying to say. He is not saying he would rather go 0-16 with nice guys, rather than 16-0 with terrible people. He is simply saying he likes that Marinelli is trying to build a foundation for an entire organization. That starts with everybody's attitude. I see you failed to mention Mike Williams in your response. Horrible attitude, poor character, and he's gone. Had all the talent in the world, never tapped into it. Why did you fail to mention him? I am a 49ers fan, and my buddies are die hard Lions fans for the most part, and I have been comparing Nolan and Marinelli for some time now. Build on character, raise expectations, and with some help from the front office (which i think is where detroit falters) you can change the attitude of an entire franchise.

Corey Dillon, Randy Moss...surrounded by what? Belichek, Brady, Seymour, Bruschi...etc. Proven LEADERS. Detroit does not have any of those types yet, so it's foolish to bring in someone of Moss's stature.

Do you know what you get when you bring in a team of the guys you mentioned?

C-I-N-C-I-N-N-A-T-I B-E-N-G-A-L-S

How has that worked out for them?

Iamcanadian
09-27-2007, 06:03 AM
While his response was to MY original post about letting Bly go, I feel you mis understood what he was trying to say. He is not saying he would rather go 0-16 with nice guys, rather than 16-0 with terrible people. He is simply saying he likes that Marinelli is trying to build a foundation for an entire organization. That starts with everybody's attitude. I see you failed to mention Mike Williams in your response. Horrible attitude, poor character, and he's gone. Had all the talent in the world, never tapped into it. Why did you fail to mention him? I am a 49ers fan, and my buddies are die hard Lions fans for the most part, and I have been comparing Nolan and Marinelli for some time now. Build on character, raise expectations, and with some help from the front office (which i think is where detroit falters) you can change the attitude of an entire franchise.

Corey Dillon, Randy Moss...surrounded by what? Belichek, Brady, Seymour, Bruschi...etc. Proven LEADERS. Detroit does not have any of those types yet, so it's foolish to bring in someone of Moss's stature.

Do you know what you get when you bring in a team of the guys you mentioned?

C-I-N-C-I-N-N-A-T-I B-E-N-G-A-L-S

How has that worked out for them?

Mike Williams has never shown the talent to be an effective NFL player. Just because Matt Millen loved him doesn't make him a talented player. He was in essence fired for not producing. Rogers is a fat lazy guy but you don't see Detroit getting rid of him because he's shown he can be an effective NFL player.
Every team drafts character but not ahead of talent as Tachical Lion suggests. All the character in the world won't make you a NFL starter and your team a winner.
It's a pure myth that Marinelli looks at character 1st or he'd have dumped Rogers long ago. I hate it when guys believe the hype put out by an organization which doesn't fit the facts. Loosing teams look for scapegoats to relieve the pressure on the organization. There isn't one loosing organization that doesn't have locker room malcontents. It goes along with loosing. Those are the guys who in reality cannot stand loosing and hate playing for an organization not committed to winning. Loosing organizations dump those players because they cannot afford to have players around who complain about the mismanagement of the team, it brings their decisio making into question.
Bly was traded to Denver. You think they cared about his criticism of the Detroit organization, get real, they appreciated the fact he wants to be on a winner and not some dysfunctional team that is still going in the wrong direction.
The Cincinnati Bengals are a far better team than Detroit and it is their HC who is under fire for not being a top team. Most HC's in the NFL would love to get the Cincy HCing job when Lewis is fired. Winning locker rooms shut up malcontents, loosing locker rooms are filled with them. That is just life in the NFL.

TacticaLion
09-27-2007, 06:53 AM
Mike Williams has never shown the talent to be an effective NFL player. Just because Matt Millen loved him doesn't make him a talented player. He was in essence fired for not producing. Rogers is a fat lazy guy but you don't see Detroit getting rid of him because he's shown he can be an effective NFL player.
Every team drafts character but not ahead of talent as Tachical Lion suggests. All the character in the world won't make you a NFL starter and your team a winner.
It's a pure myth that Marinelli looks at character 1st or he'd have dumped Rogers long ago. I hate it when guys believe the hype put out by an organization which doesn't fit the facts. Loosing teams look for scapegoats to relieve the pressure on the organization. There isn't one loosing organization that doesn't have locker room malcontents. It goes along with loosing. Those are the guys who in reality cannot stand loosing and hate playing for an organization not committed to winning. Loosing organizations dump those players because they cannot afford to have players around who complain about the mismanagement of the team, it brings their decisio making into question.
Bly was traded to Denver. You think they cared about his criticism of the Detroit organization, get real, they appreciated the fact he wants to be on a winner and not some dysfunctional team that is still going in the wrong direction.
The Cincinnati Bengals are a far better team than Detroit and it is their HC who is under fire for not being a top team. Most HC's in the NFL would love to get the Cincy HCing job when Lewis is fired. Winning locker rooms shut up malcontents, loosing locker rooms are filled with them. That is just life in the NFL.WHAT!? When did I suggest that every team drafts character ahead of talent? I never said that.

If there are two players with similar talent and college production, but one has character concerns while the other is a focused, hard working and responsible individual, many teams would choose the no-character concern player. That character player might be valued 1-2 rounds higher than the other, because attitude and work ethic are important attributes of success. It's just the way it is... especially with the backlash from some players (Chris Henry, Pacman Jones, ect...) and the response from Goodell. Even before these situations, "problem" players has divided locker rooms and ruined teams.

Mike Williams has never shown the talent to be an effective NFL player.Oh come on. He was a top-tier prospect in his draft... had a lot of talent but completely lacked a work ethic. Just because he hasn't "shown" the talent to be an effective NFL player doesn't mean that he didn't show the talent to be an effective football player at the college level. He's got great size, decent speed and used his body well... things that translate to the NFL level. If he had the drive, he might still be on the roster.

Unfortunately if we loose a few more games like the Eagles game another 3 or 4 guys will complain about the team stinking, rotten coaching and being in a rotten organization.HA! Then, you bring up the Pats and Cowboys, two top tier teams, and wonder why their "character risks" didn't bring their team down.

Umm... they aren't losing games? As you said, the complaining hits after a few losses... something the 3-0 Pats and 3-0 'Boys have nothing to worry about. Both teams made the playoffs last year and both will (most likely) be back there.

Rogers is a fat lazy guy but you don't see Detroit getting rid of him because he's shown he can be an effective NFL player.

It's a pure myth that Marinelli looks at character 1st or he'd have dumped Rogers long ago.
Absolutely not.

Rogers was on the team when it hit its lowest point. Rogers has been here for the losing seasons, the Harrington fallout and the negative mindset. You said yourself that losing brings the negative mindset... do you see why he might have been demotivated? I've never heard a report of Rogers missing a meeting, being late for a practice or "not putting out" in the Marinelli regime... because Marinelli has brought a positive mindset to the team. I've only heard that he's been working his ass off and it's showing on the field.

Apply your logic to your own arguments.

Iamcanadian
09-27-2007, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE=TacticaLion;636639]WHAT!? When did I suggest that every team drafts character ahead of talent? I never said that.

If there are two players with similar talent and college production, but one has character concerns while the other is a focused, hard working and responsible individual, many teams would choose the no-character concern player. That character player might be valued 1-2 rounds higher than the other, because attitude and work ethic are important attributes of success. It's just the way it is... especially with the backlash from some players (Chris Henry, Pacman Jones, ect...) and the response from Goodell. Even before these situations, "problem" players has divided locker rooms and ruined teams.

Your stating the obvious for every team but I quote you "and how the Lions make character their main priority." to indicate that the Lions would draft character over talent or did I misinterpret you.

Oh come on. He was a top-tier prospect in his draft... had a lot of talent but completely lacked a work ethic. Just because he hasn't "shown" the talent to be an effective NFL player doesn't mean that he didn't show the talent to be an effective football player at the college level. He's got great size, decent speed and used his body well... things that translate to the NFL level. If he had the drive, he might still be on the roster.

Why, because Millen drafted him high? That doesn't mean the top talent appraisers on other teams saw the same thing. Millen as he showed with Rodgers cannot appraise character. When has Mike Williams actually showed that he has real talent in the NFL. What you do in college doesn't mean squat once you reach the NFL.

HA! Then, you bring up the Pats and Cowboys, two top tier teams, and wonder why their "character risks" didn't bring their team down.

Umm... they aren't losing games? As you said, the complaining hits after a few losses... something the 3-0 Pats and 3-0 'Boys have nothing to worry about. Both teams made the playoffs last year and both will (most likely) be back there.

So you agree that one team's complainers can be effective on a wining team, so just maybe our complainers were just the scapegoats for bad management who cannot produce a winner.


Absolutely not.

Rogers was on the team when it hit its lowest point. Rogers has been here for the losing seasons, the Harrington fallout and the negative mindset. You said yourself that losing brings the negative mindset... do you see why he might have been demotivated? I've never heard a report of Rogers missing a meeting, being late for a practice or "not putting out" in the Marinelli regime... because Marinelli has brought a positive mindset to the team. I've only heard that he's been working his ass off and it's showing on the field.

Every new HC brings a positive mindset to a team, if he produces a winner, the mindset remains, if he continues to loose, some players will become locker room cancers complaining about the rotten coaches and organization. The jury is still out on Marinelli as to whether or not he can turn this franchise around and my guess is he won't because he's still got Millen doing the drafting and organizing the management team. I don't believe any HC can be successful with Millen running the show.

TacticaLion
09-27-2007, 11:37 AM
Your stating the obvious for every team but I quote you "and how the Lions make character their main priority." to indicate that the Lions would draft character over talent or did I misinterpret you.
Now, let me quote you:
Every team drafts character but not ahead of talent as Tachical Lion suggests.Do you see the glaring difference from your statement to mine? I didn't say "every team", I said the "Lions". Yes, a lot of teams prefer high-character players, but Marinelli has made it a point of emphasis over the last two years. He wants hard working, non-stop players who want to learn and love the game... not just the most talented player on the board.

Look at Cleveland (for one example). They took Wright, regardless of his character concerns, while other teams wouldn't even look his way. It was a known fact that quite a few teams took certain players completely off their boards because of their past actions.

Why, because Millen drafted him high? That doesn't mean the top talent appraisers on other teams saw the same thing. Millen as he showed with Rodgers cannot appraise character. When has Mike Williams actually showed that he has real talent in the NFL. What you do in college doesn't mean squat once you reach the NFL. Bah. Whatever. Mike Williams and Charles Rodgers were elite prospects coming out of college. Their failures in the NFL don't take away the prospects they were.

So you agree that one team's complainers can be effective on a wining team, so just maybe our complainers were just the scapegoats for bad management who cannot produce a winner.You said it yourself... losing can cause a problem within a team, and it's usually true. Although not all players become completely beligerant, some do.

The fact that, instead of working harder, our complainers simply gave up, divided the team and started pointing fingers is the difference from our situation to others. Bly was a negative player from the beginning... the losing only fueled it.

Every new HC brings a positive mindset to a team, if he produces a winner, the mindset remains, if he continues to loose, some players will become locker room cancers complaining about the rotten coaches and organization. The jury is still out on Marinelli as to whether or not he can turn this franchise around and my guess is he won't because he's still got Millen doing the drafting and organizing the management team. I don't believe any HC can be successful with Millen running the show.Marinelli has done what many coaches will NOT do, and that's rebuild the entire team. You can't deny that he took a much different approach and made character and hard work paramount. Looking back, Morningweg (or whatever) and Mooch did nothing like what Marinelli did.

Saying that no team will be successful with Millen running the show is the same as when it was suggested that Peyton Manning would never win "the big game". He fell short a few times, and many made statements like that... until he won. You're just another one of those fans... "I haven't seen it, so it can't happen". It can happen. Especially with the foundation Marinelli has established.

Addict
09-27-2007, 03:31 PM
It's acutally a bit sad we're defending the past in a discussion about the present and future. What's done is done, we aren't ever gonna change the fact Rogers and BMW are busts, albeit they looked like solid selections at the time.

Hell after the rogers selection there were analysts who said they were the next big thing in receiver-qb tandems, so let's not get into that discussion, since it's almost as corny as the 'lol Eli Maning' threads.

TacticaLion
09-27-2007, 04:29 PM
It's acutally a bit sad we're defending the past in a discussion about the present and future. What's done is done, we aren't ever gonna change the fact Rogers and BMW are busts, albeit they looked like solid selections at the time.

Hell after the rogers selection there were analysts who said they were the next big thing in receiver-qb tandems, so let's not get into that discussion, since it's almost as corny as the 'lol Eli Maning' threads.

Yeah... it was a discussion about "character" and "busts", and they happen to come up. I feel ya, though...

KCJ58
09-27-2007, 09:25 PM
wat's up with Detroit Lion fans having huge sigs

TacticaLion
09-27-2007, 09:32 PM
wat's up with Detroit Lion fans having huge sigs

FYI, my sig doesn't make the entire page bigger, but my side column smaller. I fit it exactly to the block provided.

Just so you know...

Good choice of thread, by the way.

Addict
09-28-2007, 01:42 AM
wat's up with Detroit Lion fans having huge sigs

if that's the opening to your new stand-up comedy show, I'd think about it again.

TacticaLion
09-28-2007, 08:36 AM
if that's the opening to your new stand-up comedy show, I'd think about it again.

Haha... I can actually imagine someone starting a show like that. Same tone, same delivery.

Addict
09-28-2007, 10:16 AM
Haha... I can actually imagine someone starting a show like that. Same tone, same delivery.

yeah, what's up with lions fans having huge sigs? they're like really.... big!

tata-cha

Iamcanadian
09-28-2007, 11:36 PM
Tachical Lion quote:
Marinelli has done what many coaches will NOT do, and that's rebuild the entire team. You can't deny that he took a much different approach and made character and hard work paramount. Looking back, Morningweg (or whatever) and Mooch did nothing like what Marinelli did.

I think it is safe to say that Martz makes all the personnel decisions on offense and Marinelli makes all the personnel decision on defense. Martz rebuilt our offense and it is at least solid.
Marinelli has won 5 out of 16 games so far and the defense carries a highly suspect rating and if it were even slightly competitive with the top teams we might even be a playoff contender instead of a pretender. Where is the evidence that Marinelli's approach on his side of the ball has produced anything but a weak defense. So far character and hard work by our defense hasn't shown up on the field against a top team. Mooch won 6 games his 1st year in Detroit I think, with Harrington as his QB, Marinelli won 3 games with Kitna and Martz on his side, a far superior talented offense than Mooch ever had. So how is Marinelli's approach more successful than Mooch's approach.
Morninweg is a whole different ballgame. He had a rookie QB named Harrington as his starter and we all know how talented Joey turned out to be.
Please explain to me how a defense that got completely blown out by Philly shows that Marinelli's approach is working or how 5 wins in 19 games qualifies as being successful???
I know we have to give Marinelli more time to succeed but I don't understand where the myth comes from that his method is working wonders and is a far superior approach to Morninweg and Mooch's. I remember everybody on this site laughing at me when I predicted that Mooch could have a worse season following his 6 victory campaign and might be fired. Everybody here predicted a better than 6 win season and thought the Lions would maybe make the playoffs if Harrington improved along with the return of C. Rodgers and our new 1st rounder Mike Williams. We all know today that Harrington wasn't a NFL QB, that Rodgers was doomed to failure and Mike Williams was a complete bust yet everybody jumps all over Mooch who had nothing to do with those players being drafted and he being asked to win with them. Roy Williams and Garcia were injured and also of little use to Mooch, yet people go on about his method of coaching vs Marinelli's without any facts to show that Marinelli's method will even work???
Could we at least wait to see how our defense pans out before going ape over Marinelli's methods??? I just hate it when people give credit when none has been earned.

Bootland27
12-03-2007, 04:07 PM
Here are my reasons why the Lions should **** can Martz.

-his unwillingness to run the ball. When given the touches, KJ does a good job. Not a great job, but he gives you a running game.

-the o-line cant protect Kitna to save their life, so instead of quick slants to Furrey and McDonald more often, he calls these long developing pass plays and by the time Kitna is on his seventh step in his drop back he has 2 guys in his face.

-his lack of use of Calvin time and time again. I get that he's a rookie and all that, but as Keyshawn would say, give him the damn ball.

Anyone else have reasons? feel free to add.

Bootland27
12-03-2007, 04:07 PM
Care to rescind that statement???

Is Martz overrated? Yeah, he might be.

Is Martz one of football's 5 best Offensive Coordinators? Yeah, I would say so.

I don't really care that they don't run the ball, or even try for that matter.

P-L
12-03-2007, 06:10 PM
Martz is a joke. We ran the football THREE times before the starters were pulled. Of our first 26 plays, 25 of them were passes. He doesn't understand that when you have an OL that can't pass block, you need to run the ball. Team are dropping 7 guys into coverage and still getting to Kitna with a four man rush. Any time an opposing defense sends more than four, it's almost a guaranteed sack.