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View Full Version : Glenn Dorsey, 3-4 NT?


D-Unit
09-24-2007, 02:57 PM
What's your opinion on playing him there? Don't say "it's taking him away from what he does best". That's so weak and generic. Be specific.

foozball
09-24-2007, 02:59 PM
well, the last time the top DT in the draft was moved to 3-4 DE, he was a bust...know who im talking about? travis johnson. he's flourishing back in the 4-3. just an example.

TitanHope
09-24-2007, 03:05 PM
He'd obviously be best in a 4-3. But, he's a monster on the DLine, no matter what scheme. As for a 3-4 DE, I think he's a bit short. He can handle double teams and take up space, though. You might as well put him at NT. But in this case, you must use the "It's taking him away from what he does best," argument, since he demands 2 OL's on him at a time and would free up everyone else on the DLine.

619
09-24-2007, 03:05 PM
hes way too valuable as a 4-3 pass rushing DT then 3-4 DE where i dont think he would get very many sacks

BrownsTown
09-24-2007, 03:06 PM
What's your opinion on playing him there? Don't say "it's taking him away from what he does best". That's so weak and generic. Be specific.

it's taking him away from what he does best.

thule
09-24-2007, 03:09 PM
He plays a one-gap scheme at LSU. He shouldn't have a problem with the 3 tech. I think he holds some value...but obviously not as much as just a pure tampa 2 DT. I just don't think by the time his value comes around as a 3-4 DE that he will be on the board to select anyways...moot point imo

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 03:10 PM
He'd obviously be best in a 4-3. But, he's a monster on the DLine, no matter what scheme. As for a 3-4 DE, I think he's a bit short. He can handle double teams and take up space, though. You might as well put him at NT. But in this case, you must use the "It's taking him away from what he does best," argument, since he demands 2 OL's on him at a time and would free up everyone else on the DLine.
Actually, a 3-4 NT might not be the worst idea, if he's used in a one gap 3-4 scheme like Dallas has.

I think I love that idea!

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 03:11 PM
it's taking him away from what he does best.
Weak and generic.

keylime_5
09-24-2007, 03:17 PM
I think Glen Dorsey could be alright in a 3-4 at DE. But that would be like putting Tommie Harris or Warren Sapp in a 3-4....he'd be a good and solid DE, but he'd be an all-pro as a DT in a 4-3.

thule
09-24-2007, 03:18 PM
Actually, a 3-4 NT might not be the worst idea, if he's used in a one gap 3-4 scheme like Dallas has.

I think I love that idea!

He would be more effective at DE. Playing him at the NT leaves you succeptable to the intermidate middle. You have to help him by playing your inside backers closer to the line of scrimmage. I don't think it's a good idea for a team using the 3-4 to take him in the top half of the draft if this is how he is going to be used. He simply doesn't have the value needed to be selected that high in the 3-4.

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 03:25 PM
He would be more effective at DE. Playing him at the NT leaves you succeptable to the intermidate middle. You have to help him by playing your inside backers closer to the line of scrimmage. I don't think it's a good idea for a team using the 3-4 to take him in the top half of the draft if this is how he is going to be used. He simply doesn't have the value needed to be selected that high in the 3-4.
Why would it leave you susceptible? He's more of a run stuffing tackle than a penetrating one. He's used to double teams. He's extremely strong. If he's not doubled, he'll penetrate the backfield. It's that easy. The last thing he is, is a liability in run defense.

thule
09-24-2007, 03:34 PM
Why would it leave you susceptible? He's more of a run stuffing tackle than a penetrating one. He's used to double teams. He's extremely strong. If he's not doubled, he'll penetrate the backfield. It's that easy. The last thing he is, is a liability in run defense.

As a cowboys fan I would expect more from you.

Think about this...a NT in the 3-4 one gap scheme is lined up usually as the 1 tech. Now depending on the SS is which should the NT will line up on. Well if a team wants to run at the weak side....you can easily pinch the NT out of the picture because it is not his gap responsibility. With your DE in the 3 tech...now your gaurd also has the angle and leverage to create a hole. With you ILB's playing at regulare depth you have to fill the hole right away. In doing so you give up the middle. This is huge for playaction in which the LB has to fill because if he doesn't it's a huge gain. This leaves you basically playing one LB in the middle...But he also likely bites on the playaction because he knows if the FB comes and gets on your backer it's his responsibility to keep it to a minimal gain.

So this is the basic problem. With a bigger NT in the one gap scheme...aka Williams in SD although he is shooting the strongside gap he still has the mass to keep the hole on the weak side minimum. If you get a guy a little smaller you have to keep your ILB's up so that if it is a run they are in position to make the play. They aren't forced to jump on playaction because they are essentially 2-3 yards from the LOS after the snap anyways. But the main difference is...depth. With a bigger NT you can keep your backers back.

The thing is there is nothing that is set or standard. You could slant him as a NT stunt him with the DE or even play him on the weakside of the center. Bottomline is with a smaller NT in the one-gap scheme your ILB's take a lot more heat....and if a team goes playaction and you fail to get pressure you are going to see alot of stuff in the middle.

TO go even further into this you could play a robber coverage and play your safety in the void of your ILB"s but now your leaving your Safety out to dry because he has deep coverage and has to be careful not to commit to a side because he is last line of defense.

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 04:06 PM
Maybe I'm confused. The Glenn Dorsey I'm talking about is the big one. The one with tree trunk legs that can drive a MAC truck backwards. The one that can control a lineman with one arm and dive and still get to the runner. Dorsey's got that wide base combined with strength and agility to control the gaps. Weight isn't an issue because that's probably the easiest thing for a player to control. I don't think mass is a problem of his. He's got the frame to put on more and still maintain all of his nastiness.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/stewart_mandel/08/22/cfb.mailbag/t1_dorsey.jpg

Yes, he is not 330+ pounds, but in a 1 gap 3-4 scheme, the NT doesn't have to be as big as he does in a 2 gap 3-4 scheme. Your explanation still sounded like the role of a 2 gap NT. Our scheme is attacking. The DL are more responsible for making plays in the backfield and at the LOS than in Parcells' gap control scheme where the LBs are responsible for making plays. Phillips' 3-4 is not so reliant on gap control. You know that. We lined up 6 men on the DL against Chicago to stuff their run. It's all about scheming. Dorsey can control the A Gap with ease. Once he commands the attention of both the Center and Guard, that opens up things for the rest of the front 7. If not, Dorsey has the ability to control his blocker and make the play whether run or pass.

Moses
09-24-2007, 04:35 PM
Maybe I'm confused. The Glenn Dorsey I'm talking about is the big one. The one with tree trunk legs that can drive a MAC truck backwards. The one that can control a lineman with one arm and dive and still get to the runner. Dorsey's got that wide base combined with strength and agility to control the gaps. Weight isn't an issue because that's probably the easiest thing for a player to control. I don't think mass is a problem of his. He's got the frame to put on more and still maintain all of his nastiness.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/stewart_mandel/08/22/cfb.mailbag/t1_dorsey.jpg

Yes, he is not 330+ pounds, but in a 1 gap 3-4 scheme, the NT doesn't have to be as big as he does in a 2 gap 3-4 scheme. Your explanation still sounded like the role of a 2 gap NT. Our scheme is attacking. The DL are more responsible for making plays in the backfield and at the LOS than in Parcells' gap control scheme where the LBs are responsible for making plays. Phillips' 3-4 is not so reliant on gap control. You know that. We lined up 6 men on the DL against Chicago to stuff their run. It's all about scheming. Dorsey can control the A Gap with ease. Once he commands the attention of both the Center and Guard, that opens up things for the rest of the front 7. If not, Dorsey has the ability to control his blocker and make the play whether run or pass.

There is a distinct difference between taking double teams in the NFL and taking them in college. The physical ability needed to withstand being double blocked is completely different. Dorsey is physically superior to almost every linemen he will play in college. In the NFL, he's just another player and there will be plenty of linemen who are bigger and stronger than him. That's why you normally see big guys like Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, etc. playing the nose in the NFL. You need a guy who can bench press those big linemen off of them and close holes in the middle of the line.

What a guy can do in college is completely different than what they will be able to do in the NFL. That's why measurables are so important. I'm expecting Dorsey to come into the NFL at less than 300 pounds and I just don't see a player of that stature making an effective NT in the NFL.

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 04:44 PM
There is a distinct difference between taking double teams in the NFL and taking them in college. The physical ability needed to withstand being double blocked is completely different. Dorsey is physically superior to almost every linemen he will play in college. In the NFL, he's just another player and there will be plenty of linemen who are bigger and stronger than him. That's why you normally see big guys like Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, etc. playing the nose in the NFL. You need a guy who can bench press those big linemen off of them and close holes in the middle of the line.

What a guy can do in college is completely different than what they will be able to do in the NFL. That's why measurables are so important. I'm expecting Dorsey to come into the NFL at less than 300 pounds and I just don't see a player of that stature making an effective NT in the NFL.
I don't expect Dorsey to dominate the NFL like he does in college right away, but the transition should be easier for him because of his talent. The key you said was if he does weigh in below 300. That is probably right. It would have to take a pretty big interview by a team wanting him to play NT to find out if he'd be willing to play that role. I think he could do it, but if he's not the type willing to do it, then he would be a bad pick. It takes a certain mentality to play the position. NT is still an interior defensive line position, so it's not a rocket science move to make. Dorsey is two biscuits away from being ideal. Jason Ferguson played in Parcells' 2 gap scheme at 6'3", 305.

While I agree bigger makes it more ideal, there are exceptions to the rule.

TitanHope
09-24-2007, 04:50 PM
Actually, a 3-4 NT might not be the worst idea, if he's used in a one gap 3-4 scheme like Dallas has.

I think I love that idea!

Hooray!



Jamal Williams, 348
Casey Hampton, 325
Kelley Gregg, 310
Dwayne Robertson, 317
Vince Wilfork, 325
Jason Ferguson, 310-IR
Aubrayo Franklin, 334

This is a list of the starting 3-4 NT's in the league, and their weights. The first thing that's apparent when you look at the data is that the premier DT's in the league(Williams, Hampton, Wilfork) are 320+ pounds. So weight and mass help a lot, but to say that a player can't play NT because he is currently 20 pounds lighter is purely opinion. In my opinion, being a successful NT is mostly skill and being able to gain leverage while maintaining a low center of gravity and balance. If a player can do this, he will be successful. Glenn Dorsey is the best DT prospect in recent years, so one would think he has the required skill set. Not to mention, weight is easily gained by a DT. So Dorsey can gain 20+ pounds fairly easily, unless he has a condition that prevents him from doing so.

I think Dorsey has the ability, but I maintain the logic of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 04:55 PM
I maintain the logic, "Get the best raw talent out there and mold it into what you want." All rookies are nothing but raw talent... even Calvin Johnson.

TitanHope
09-24-2007, 04:58 PM
But just because its raw doesn't mean it will comform to what you want. Which is why there are busts. I think that if you setup a player to succeed, its good coaching. If you setup a player to fail, its bad coaching.

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 05:00 PM
But just because its raw doesn't mean it will comform to what you want. Which is why there are busts. I think that if you setup a player to succeed, its good coaching. If you setup a player to fail, its bad coaching.
I can't speak for Wade Phillips, but I think that Dorsey could succeed in his 1 gap scheme. Our starting NT Jay Ratliff is 6-3, 298 and our back up Remi Ayodele is 6-2, 300. We just signed Tank Johnson who is 6-3, 300. What I'm suggesting isn't from another galaxy.

TimD
09-24-2007, 05:05 PM
Gregg is only 310 but he dominates the middle

TitanHope
09-24-2007, 05:10 PM
I can't speak for Wade Phillips, but I think that Dorsey could succeed in his 1 gap scheme. Our starting NT Jay Ratliff is 6-3, 298 and our back up Remi Ayodele is 6-2, 300. We just signed Tank Johnson who is 6-3, 300. What I'm suggesting isn't from another galaxy.

I know, which is why I agree with you. He could be able to NT in the 3-4, but he'd be more successful in the 4-3, which is the DEF he plays in college. This is only my opinion, though.

NIMV
09-24-2007, 05:20 PM
I feel he fit on 4-3 system like Tampa 2 such as Tommie Harris and Warren Sapp.

Shiver
09-24-2007, 05:21 PM
If there is an undersized DT that I think would be a great fit for a 1-gap 3-4 team, it isn't Glenn Dorsey, it's Sedrick Ellis.

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 05:23 PM
If there is an undersized DT that I think would be a great fit for a 1-gap 3-4 team, it isn't Glenn Dorsey, it's Sedrick Ellis.
Interesting suggestion. I've always thought Ellis was overrated though. I don't think he could hold Dorsey's jock strap.

Shiver
09-24-2007, 05:26 PM
Interesting suggestion. I've always thought Ellis was overrated though. I don't think he could hold Dorsey's jock strap.

Ellis is a monster. He blew me away during their game against Nebraska. At one point threw the Nebraska center (a senior at that) to the ground and sacked Keller before he could even turn around. He has incredible power for his size.

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 05:28 PM
Can Charlie Weis play NT?

http://www.hannahandfriends.org/images/WeisCharlie.jpg

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 05:29 PM
Ellis is a monster. He blew me away during their game against Nebraska. At one point threw the Nebraska center (a senior at that) to the ground and sacked Keller before he could even turn around. He has incredible power for his size.
I'll have to keep my eye out. I do think that was a good suggestion.

Moses
09-24-2007, 06:05 PM
I don't expect Dorsey to dominate the NFL like he does in college right away, but the transition should be easier for him because of his talent. The key you said was if he does weigh in below 300. That is probably right. It would have to take a pretty big interview by a team wanting him to play NT to find out if he'd be willing to play that role. I think he could do it, but if he's not the type willing to do it, then he would be a bad pick. It takes a certain mentality to play the position. NT is still an interior defensive line position, so it's not a rocket science move to make. Dorsey is two biscuits away from being ideal. Jason Ferguson played in Parcells' 2 gap scheme at 6'3", 305.

While I agree bigger makes it more ideal, there are exceptions to the rule.

Jason Ferguson was no great NT though, remember that. Kelly Gregg is considered smaller (at easily 20+ pounds bigger than Dorsey and a couple inches shorter) but he gets away with it because he's a brilliant technician who really understands leverage. All that said, he's not even close in terms of ability to a Williams or Hampton. All great NTs are big, physical pillars who can't be moved on the interior. I just don't see that in Dorsey. I would be extremely surprised if a team selected Dorsey for anything other than a 4-3 DT role.

slightlyaraiderfan
09-24-2007, 06:39 PM
Interesting suggestion. I've always thought Ellis was overrated though. I don't think he could hold Dorsey's jock strap.
Last year he was injured and came on late in the season, so I can see why people might want to cal him overrated. This year, has been a different story, he has been a monster like Shiver said...he is insanely strong for his size and has been dominating. I would still rank him 2nd behind Dorsey, but I don't think the difference is that big like most people make it out to be....but of course, this might be my homer side talking.

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 07:17 PM
Last year he was injured and came on late in the season, so I can see why people might want to cal him overrated. This year, has been a different story, he has been a monster like Shiver said...he is insanely strong for his size and has been dominating. I would still rank him 2nd behind Dorsey, but I don't think the difference is that big like most people make it out to be....but of course, this might be my homer side talking.
What's your take on Ellis' ability to possibly play NT?

mqtirishfan
09-24-2007, 07:40 PM
I don't get the point of this thread. It's a debate about the potential success of Dorsey in a 3-4, and you remove the best possible reason not to do so (that he is a better fit in a 4-3 with his skill-set)? He might be able to play well in a 3-4, but is he a top 5 pick at that spot? Is he worth that kind of money if you take away what he can do in a 4-3 defense? It's much like sticking Calais Campbell in a 3-4. He has the athletic ability that makes you believe he'll be successful, but his skill set is perfect for a 4-3 End.

draftguru151
09-24-2007, 07:50 PM
Ellis is a monster. He blew me away during their game against Nebraska. At one point threw the Nebraska center (a senior at that) to the ground and sacked Keller before he could even turn around. He has incredible power for his size.

That was awesome, I watched that a few times to see if the center tripped over someones foot but Ellis just put him on the ground with one punch.

As for Dorsey/Ellis at NT, I don't think either have first round value at the position.

Also D, about the molding players part and best talent, taking a player and building a scheme around him can work, but taking a player and trying to mold him into a scheme as proven to NOT work. It can, but there are many instances where it doesn't. Taking a guy that has shown the skills to fit into the role with less talent would make a lot more sense than taking a guy who has shown to not fit into the role with more talent.

And as for Weis, he certainly has the body type, but I'm not sure he plays with the proper leverage for the position, and there a lot of concerns with his weight and he may get TOO BIG to play NT.

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 08:14 PM
I think a lot of people are just too caught up in ideal measurables. I say, put 'em on the field and let 'er rip. Talent... Real Talent trumps all. A lot of people end up busts, but I don't blame a system for making a player a bust.

Canadian_kid16
09-24-2007, 08:14 PM
Actually, a 3-4 NT might not be the worst idea, if he's used in a one gap 3-4 scheme like Dallas has.

I think I love that idea!

^^^

Is that what you were TRYING to get at with this thread?? :p

D-Unit
09-24-2007, 08:15 PM
^^^

Is that what you were TRYING to get at with this thread?? :p
We have a winner!!! :D

thule
09-25-2007, 12:43 AM
Dorsey is still being knocked for taking a few plays off over the course of a game by scouts. If Ellis wasn't injured last year he would be the top prospect. Every week that Ellis plays he is that much closer to being the #1 overall prospect. Dorsey is a great player....but he really reminds me of Marcus Spears as far as type of player is concerned. They both dominated in college had a couple of questions about how hard they played at all times...but in the end Spears just couldn't get into the backfield like he did in college. Now it's not fair to judge Dorsey by what Spears has done in the NFL. But that is what makes me think Dorsey...couldn't earn his draft status for the position of play.

D-Unit
09-25-2007, 01:43 AM
Dorsey is still being knocked for taking a few plays off over the course of a game by scouts. If Ellis wasn't injured last year he would be the top prospect. Every week that Ellis plays he is that much closer to being the #1 overall prospect. Dorsey is a great player....but he really reminds me of Marcus Spears as far as type of player is concerned. They both dominated in college had a couple of questions about how hard they played at all times...but in the end Spears just couldn't get into the backfield like he did in college. Now it's not fair to judge Dorsey by what Spears has done in the NFL. But that is what makes me think Dorsey...couldn't earn his draft status for the position of play.
Well from what I've seen, I don't see a slacker. Still more games to watch, but so far, he's been pretty impressive if you ask me.

Marcus Spears was amazing in college, so I totally understand the fear. DT is one of the harder positions to grade. He could be the next Jimmy Kennedy, Ryan Simms or the next Kevin Williams or Marcus Stroud.

The scouting of Dorsey and Ellis is going to be so fun :D

thule
09-25-2007, 03:38 AM
Well from what I've seen, I don't see a slacker. Still more games to watch, but so far, he's been pretty impressive if you ask me.

Marcus Spears was amazing in college, so I totally understand the fear. DT is one of the harder positions to grade. He could be the next Jimmy Kennedy, Ryan Simms or the next Kevin Williams or Marcus Stroud.

The scouting of Dorsey and Ellis is going to be so fun :D

McShay and Kiper are two guys that I have seen that say Ellis is closing the gap on Dorsey. Now this doesn't have to do with a huge part of Dorsey taking plays off but I think it has more to do with the fact Ellis has been playing at a high level more consistently this season as to Dorsey.

Dam8610
09-25-2007, 04:26 AM
His pro comparison is Warren Sapp for a reason. He's a great 3-tech 1 gap UT, and shooting the gap and making plays in the backfield is how he'll be able to have his greatest success in the NFL. Moving him to a 1-tech 2 gap NT who is required to eat blockers and attempt to collapse the pocket would be a bad idea, as it will force him to learn his role over again, as it will have completely changed, and give him responsibilities he's never dealt with, and thus there's no proof that he can handle. In the 3-tech, he can still draw a double and be effective in that regard, but if he doesn't, he's going to be able to get in the backfield and either stuff the RB for a loss or apply pressure on the QB.

Addict
09-25-2007, 04:41 AM
I think a lot of people are just too caught up in ideal measurables. I say, put 'em on the field and let 'er rip. Talent... Real Talent trumps all. A lot of people end up busts, but I don't blame a system for making a player a bust.

Well there's intanglibles as well... If talent was everything Ryan Leaf would be the greatest QB in the NFL right now.

thule
09-25-2007, 04:43 AM
His pro comparison is Warren Sapp for a reason. He's a great 3-tech 1 gap UT, and shooting the gap and making plays in the backfield is how he'll be able to have his greatest success in the NFL. Moving him to a 1-tech 2 gap NT who is required to eat blockers and attempt to collapse the pocket would be a bad idea, as it will force him to learn his role over again, as it will have completely changed, and give him responsibilities he's never dealt with, and thus there's no proof that he can handle. In the 3-tech, he can still draw a double and be effective in that regard, but if he doesn't, he's going to be able to get in the backfield and either stuff the RB for a loss or apply pressure on the QB.

We are talking about using him in a 3-4 one-gap scheme. in the 3-4 t gap scheme NT's usually play the 0-tech so that they can controll both gaps on the LOS...if they played the 1-tech it would be easier for a team to run to the side they aren't shading. A NT plays the 1-tech in a 1 gap scheme. Which is similar to the responsibilities of the 3 tech...just got to deal with a few more double teams. This whole discussion has to do with the one-gap scheme I haven't seen anyone in here recommend him for playing the nose in the standard 2 gap 3-4 scheme.

Javzz
09-25-2007, 10:07 AM
McShay and Kiper are two guys that I have seen that say Ellis is closing the gap on Dorsey. Now this doesn't have to do with a huge part of Dorsey taking plays off but I think it has more to do with the fact Ellis has been playing at a high level more consistently this season as to Dorsey.

What are you talking about? Really? Dorsey is constantly praised for his motor. Name one scout who's criticized it? And he's been playing lights out. After all, he's a Dt that's on some peoples Heisman Watch lists for the moment.

Not to mention Marcus Spears is a DE?

Addict
09-25-2007, 10:11 AM
What are you talking about? Really? Dorsey is constantly praised for his motor. Name one scout who's criticized it? And he's been playing lights out. After all, he's a Dt that's on some peoples Heisman Watch lists for the moment.

Not to mention Marcus Spears is a DE?

he just named two, McShay and Kiper.

draftguru151
09-25-2007, 10:12 AM
Yea, I don't really get the motor questioning for Dorsey. I don't think I've seen him take a play off. Ellis catching up to him is just Ellis' stock going up because he's been playing so well.

moc182
09-25-2007, 10:21 AM
Nice to see Ellis getting the respect he deserves. I had him ranked as the #3 overall Senior coming in to the season, and it looks like that's starting to be the consensus.

Sniper
09-25-2007, 10:43 AM
he just named two, McShay and Kiper.

Kiper ok, but McShay doesn't count.

Addict
09-25-2007, 10:50 AM
Kiper ok, but McShay doesn't count.

I don't know who the hell he is anyways, but he got his name called.

Freddy G
09-25-2007, 12:27 PM
You bring up an interesting question question, one i have often thought about myself.

What if you put a 1 gap (Tommie Harris, Warren Sapp, Glenn Dorsey) at NT in the 3-4? Lets first look at the resposibility of the 34 NT. Prototypically he is tremendously strong, squaty, and nearly impossible to move without 2-3 guys (Casey hamton, Jamal Williams)....thus forcing the double team that allows the LBs to run freely. However, quickness and pass rush are greatly sacrificed.

Now, what if you put a quick penetrator at NT? Just like Tommie Harris or Warren Sapp (in prime) in the 34, they would will still require a double team, right? So what is the difference between a double team on a pass rusher and a double team on a run stuffer? Both allow the LBs to run free which is the point of the 34 scheme. If you have Tommie Harris at NT and you don't double him, he would just shoot in and make the play in the backfield, just like we see Glenn Dorsey doing at LSU, would that translate to the 34? I don't see why not. Both have also proven they are stout enough to hold the pivot when they are double teamed.

So basically, instead of using an imovable object to require more OL attention, you would be using an unstoppable force to require more OL attention. Occupying blockers is occupying blockers no matter how you slice it. However, in both cases you still need an elite talent, so i guess it would come down to what is easier had.

Personally, i think it something that is defenitely worth a shot and Glenn Dorsey seems like exactly the type that could do it because of his combination of stength and leverage to go with what he is more known for, his quickness.

The same cannot be said for 34 DE though. Simply because then you are going against 6'5+ 320+ OTs who would just swallow up a guy like Dorsey (see Warren Sapp at 34 DE, yes i am saying Sapp, IN HIS PRIME, would be better at NT than DE). You have to remeber that a guy like Dorsey is a special case though, because almost never are there 1 gap types that are as strong and stout as he. I see him as lighter quicker version of Vince Wilfork, yet maybe just as strong.

Yeah, sorry if this just an incoherant babble, i didn't feel like writing a book and getting technical.

Iamcanadian
09-25-2007, 12:40 PM
I can't speak for Wade Phillips, but I think that Dorsey could succeed in his 1 gap scheme. Our starting NT Jay Ratliff is 6-3, 298 and our back up Remi Ayodele is 6-2, 300. We just signed Tank Johnson who is 6-3, 300. What I'm suggesting isn't from another galaxy.

Maybe it is because he has nobody else to play the position in Dallas. He certainly didn't use a small 1 gap guy at San Diego. Defending against Chicago and defending against a top team that can both run and pass are 2 totally different things. Dorsey would be a huge liability against teams like NE, Indy and Pittsburgh who can beat you with the run or the pass. As a previous poster pointed out, if your NT is a smaller guy, he isn't going to be able to protect against the run by himself and it will require that an ILB cheat towards the line. That make work against a team that has a weak passing attack but it would really expose the middle against a good passing team.
Yes, Dorsey could play the NT position, anybody can be put in there but he would be swallowed up by huge OG's and Centers who double team him.
Outside of the Giants who put up a lot of points on your defense, Miami and Chicago are hardly offensive juggernauts. Teams are going to attack Dallas's NT position every game this season, it is an obvious weakness and a player like Dorsey wouldn't solve it.
Dorsey would probably be effective as a DE in a 3-4 but is best suited as a 1 gap penatrater in a basic 4-3 or a Tampa 2 scheme.

D-Unit
09-25-2007, 02:02 PM
Maybe it is because he has nobody else to play the position in Dallas. He certainly didn't use a small 1 gap guy at San Diego. Defending against Chicago and defending against a top team that can both run and pass are 2 totally different things. Dorsey would be a huge liability against teams like NE, Indy and Pittsburgh who can beat you with the run or the pass. As a previous poster pointed out, if your NT is a smaller guy, he isn't going to be able to protect against the run by himself and it will require that an ILB cheat towards the line. That make work against a team that has a weak passing attack but it would really expose the middle against a good passing team.
Yes, Dorsey could play the NT position, anybody can be put in there but he would be swallowed up by huge OG's and Centers who double team him.
Outside of the Giants who put up a lot of points on your defense, Miami and Chicago are hardly offensive juggernauts. Teams are going to attack Dallas's NT position every game this season, it is an obvious weakness and a player like Dorsey wouldn't solve it.
Dorsey would probably be effective as a DE in a 3-4 but is best suited as a 1 gap penatrater in a basic 4-3 or a Tampa 2 scheme.
I'm not arguing that Dorsey isn't a better fit in the 4-3, but I'm merely seeing if it is possible to make a case for him as a 1 gap 3-4 NT. I see your point about using the guys we have because that's all we have, but it doesn't hold much water because Remi Ayodele and Tank Johnson were both brought in by Phillips. If he didn't think they could work, he wouldn't have brought them in in the first place. Remi and Tank both came straight off the streets.

Sure, a case can be made that bigger is better. But a case can also be made because of the elite talent that is Dorsey.

Dallas has had NT problems ever since their change to the 3-4. Jason Ferguson never commanded a double team. Dorsey would at the very least do that. Playing the 0 technique, Dorsey has the ability to read the direction of the run and control his leverage with the center to get to the ball carrier and make the tackle. If he gets doubled, then his mission is accomplished and the LBs or DEs need to do their jobs. Against the pass, Dorsey can do the same, control the center and get by him or draw the double and open up a seam or free up a blocker for the LBs or DEs to get to the QB.

Freddy G
09-25-2007, 03:40 PM
I think Dorsey would have his best chance to succeed at 34 NT if he had some good space eaters at DE. In other words, let Dorsey play the 1 gap tech in the middle and get penetration, which would flush the QB to the OLBs, then have your DEs as the guys eating blockers. Then on running downs, do something similar and have Dorsey get penetration and flush the play outside. You have to have some Igor, Warren type DEs (or Seymour type of course) who excell in the run game (i think Spears is also solid against the run, correct me if i am wrong).

Basically, your flipping the philosophy.

no love
09-25-2007, 05:55 PM
I think a lot of people are just too caught up in ideal measurables. I say, put 'em on the field and let 'er rip. Talent... Real Talent trumps all. A lot of people end up busts, but I don't blame a system for making a player a bust.

Sure a lot of people are caught up in idea measurables, but thats because they help to predict the ease of transition from the college game to the pros. Of course they are not the only thing, such as drive/work ethic, intelligence, instinct, etc, but a players physical measurables have A LOT to do it. Sometimes even for the most talented players it takes time to transition to the NFL, systems can do a lot to giving a young player confidence and allowing him to grow, rather than have his confidence shot.

Everyone in the NFL has "real talent," you can't just put any good player in any scheme and expect him to excel. Players that really excel are those who have coaches have to play to the players strength just as the players have to work their butts off to play in the scheme.

darnik44two
09-25-2007, 06:27 PM
hes way too valuable as a 4-3 pass rushing DT then 3-4 DE where i dont think he would get very many sacks

DE's in a 3-4 aren't asked to pile up sacks. They need to be run stuffers, and eat up blockers to allow the OLB's (the rush ends in a 3-4) get to the QB. Dorsey because of his height really would only work as a NT, they are asked to do pretty much the same thing as the DE's are with more of an emphasis on stuffing the run. So if a 3-4 team like say Dallas is sitting in the top 5 (via Cleveland), they would pass on Dorsey so they didn't hurt his career sack total? Dorsey would need to add 20-30 pounds to his frame to play NT though. He has plenty of strength already.

D-Unit
09-25-2007, 07:04 PM
DE's in a 3-4 aren't asked to pile up sacks. They need to be run stuffers, and eat up blockers to allow the OLB's (the rush ends in a 3-4) get to the QB. Dorsey because of his height really would only work as a NT, they are asked to do pretty much the same thing as the DE's are with more of an emphasis on stuffing the run. So if a 3-4 team like say Dallas is sitting in the top 5 (via Cleveland), they would pass on Dorsey so they didn't hurt his career sack total? Dorsey would need to add 20-30 pounds to his frame to play NT though. He has plenty of strength already.
Once again, we're not talking about a traditional 2 gap NT. If you follow the conversation going on, that's what we've been saying. In a 1 gap scheme, like that of Dallas, Dorsey wouldn't HAVE TO add 20-30 pounds. Gaining weight is simple, but he wouldn't have to.

M.O.T.H.
09-25-2007, 07:15 PM
He could do it...def. not the best fit at all but, for our one gap scheme he would fit fine. We have 295-298 pound Jay Ratliff there right now and he has been very effective. I doubt it would happen but, if it did...I dont have any doubts that he could play the position and be very effective in doing so.

Big_Pete
09-25-2007, 08:54 PM
I think Glenn Dorsey as a 3-4 NT has some merit.

size can be an advantage at NT; but there are also players who are smaller, using strength, very good leverage, technique and quickness to get the job done.

Kendrick Clancy (6-1, 305) and LaRoi Glover (6-2, 290) have both been used at 3-4 NTs (backing up Casey Hampton and Jason Ferguson). Fersugon is listed at 6-2, 312, hardly the huge plugger people normally picture when you mention 3-4 NTs; his current backup Jay Ratliff is listed at 6-4, 298. so smaller guys can do the job.

I think people tend to think of bigger NTs because it is easier to find a bigger guy to put in there and get the job done; that doesn't mean smaller guys can't do the job, just that smaller guys who can do the job are much harder to find.


back to Dorsey....


Glenn Dorsey is currently listed at 299 lbs; he could well end up in the 310 - 315 lbs range in the pros.

Glenn Dorsey isn't the traditional plugger that most people think of in a 3-4 NT. The real question is, does Dorsey have the strength, leverage etc?


People get carried away with measurables, after all many draft experts thought that guys like Merriman, Pollack and Kiwanuka didn't have the speed and agility to play LB.



Dorsey as a possible NT is thinking outside the box and it is an intruging option (particularly in a year that is weak in genuine 3-4 NT prospects).

If Dorsey could play NT, then that opens up alot more options for defensive coordinators.