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Beans
01-29-2007, 05:06 PM
What guys playing in the NFL right now are sure to be in the HOF when they retire?

Favre, Manning, Tomlinson and Brady are prolly the most obvious ones.

I'll put a vote for Derrick Brooks, too.

255979119
01-29-2007, 05:08 PM
Favre,Manning,Brady

Martin,LT

Harrison,Gonzalez

Strahan


I could go on and on

sodar21
01-29-2007, 05:10 PM
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Peyton Manning
Ladainian Tomlinson
Curtis Martin
Marvin Harrison

Walter Jones
Orlando Pace
Jonathan Ogden

Michael Strahan
Warren Sapp
Derrick Brooks
Ray Lewis


These guys in my mind are surefire and could pretty much retire now and get into the HOF.

yourfavestoner
01-29-2007, 05:11 PM
Warren Sapp, Curtis Martin, Ray Lewis, Michael Strahan, Terrell Owens (assuming its strictly performance based), Jonathan Ogden, Orlando Pace, and Brett Favre.

Woody56
01-29-2007, 05:14 PM
Ray Lewis, Curtis Martin, Shaun Alexander (stats will get him in), Ed Reed, Brian Dawkins, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jonathan Ogden, Brett Favre, Warren Sapp, Brian Urlacher, Champ Bailey are just some

KCJ58
01-29-2007, 05:17 PM
Peyton Manning, LT, Marvin Harrison, and Tom Brady

yourfavestoner
01-29-2007, 05:19 PM
Urlacher is not a sure fire Hall of Famer right now at all.

marks01234
01-29-2007, 05:25 PM
Torry Holt has to get some mention. A couple of more seasons at his current pace and I think he's a lock.

Orlando Pace, Warren Sapp, Walter Jones, Peyton Manning, LT, Tom Brady, Champ Bailey and Brett Farve are the only real locks I see at this point. Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, Ray Lewis, Jonathan Ogden, Derrick Brooks, Michael Strahan, Tony Gonzalez, Curtis Martin and Shaun Alexander are all guys I would consider probable.

Ward
01-29-2007, 05:27 PM
Warren Sapp, Curtis Martin, Ray Lewis, Michael Strahan, Terrell Owens (assuming its strictly performance based), Jonathan Ogden, Orlando Pace, and Brett Favre.

Now why would you assume that? If it is performance based then Lee Roy Jordan, Michael Irvin, Drew Pearson, Bob Hayes, and Cliff Harris would all be in as well.

sodar21
01-29-2007, 05:28 PM
I don't think Shaun Alexander at the moment is a sure fire Hall of Famer. He needs several more years of high production to be considered.

Curtis Martin is one I forgot but hes a definite hall of famer.

Xiomera
01-29-2007, 05:28 PM
What the hell is up with this poll? :roll:

I would say that there are currently 18-25 players than are on track to go to the HoF, with about half of them being sure things.

MaxV
01-29-2007, 05:44 PM
Peyton Manning
Brett Favre
Marvin Harrison
LT
Derrick Brooks
Warren Sapp
Michael Strahan
Tom Brady
Junior Seau(if he's still active)
Orlando Pace
Johnathan Ogden
Curtis Martin
Champ Bailey

Those are all locks. The rest still need some work to do.

Woody56
01-29-2007, 05:47 PM
can't believe i left him off my list, but Marshall Faulk is a lock

UKfan
01-29-2007, 05:48 PM
Peyton Manning
Brett Favre
Marvin Harrison
LT
Derrick Brooks
Warren Sapp
Michael Strahan
Tom Brady
Junior Seau(if he's still active)
Orlando Pace
Johnathan Ogden
Curtis Martin
Champ Bailey

Those are all locks. The rest still need some work to do.

Pretty good list, can't disagree with a lot of it. I'd probably just think of adding Brian Dawkins, Ray Lewis and Walter Jones

Splat
01-29-2007, 05:49 PM
Will Shields.

Ravens1991
01-29-2007, 05:55 PM
QB- Peyton Manning, Tom Brady
RB- Ladainian Tomlinson
WR-Marvin Harrison
OL-Ogden, Pace, Jones, Shields, Allen, Mawae(not sure how many pro bowls he has)

DL- Strahan, Warren Sapp

LB-Derrick Brooks, Ray Lewis

CB-Champ Bailey


I am sure there are more I just dont feel like thinking about them.

sodar21
01-29-2007, 05:55 PM
can't believe i left him off my list, but Marshall Faulk is a lockHe isn't in the NFL anymore but will be eligible for the HOF soon and will definetly get in. Same with Cris Carter, Rod Woodson, Deion Sanders.

jag
01-29-2007, 05:55 PM
QB- Peyton Manning, Tom Brady
RB- Ladainian Tomlinson
WR-Marvin Harrison
OL-Ogden, Pace, Jones, Shields, Allen, Mawae(not sure how many pro bowls he has)

DL- Strahan, Warren Sapp

LB-Derrick Brooks, Ray Lewis

CB-Champ Bailey


I am sure there are more I just dont feel like thinking about them.
We'll check back on that in 5 years.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
01-29-2007, 06:06 PM
JOSH BROWN OMGZZZZZZ


[/tubby]


Champ Bailey
Ray Lewis
Peyton
Jay Cutler
Tom Brady
Tomlinson
Orlando Pace
Jon Ogden
Derrick Brooks
Marvin Harrison
Torry Holt

MaxV
01-29-2007, 06:07 PM
Peyton Manning
Brett Favre
Marvin Harrison
LT
Derrick Brooks
Warren Sapp
Michael Strahan
Tom Brady
Junior Seau(if he's still active)
Orlando Pace
Johnathan Ogden
Curtis Martin
Champ Bailey

Those are all locks. The rest still need some work to do.

Pretty good list, can't disagree with a lot of it. I'd probably just think of adding Brian Dawkins, Ray Lewis and Walter Jones

Sorry forgot about Ray Lewis.

Dawkins and Jones could certainly get in, but I don't think they are locks.

BTW, Tiki Barber will get in too, in my opinion.

Hurricane Ditka
01-29-2007, 06:12 PM
Urlacher is not a sure fire Hall of Famer right now at all.He's on track to be one.

Splat
01-29-2007, 06:18 PM
Peyton Manning
Brett Favre
Marvin Harrison
LT
Derrick Brooks
Warren Sapp
Michael Strahan
Tom Brady
Junior Seau(if he's still active)
Orlando Pace
Johnathan Ogden
Curtis Martin
Champ Bailey

Those are all locks. The rest still need some work to do.

Pretty good list, can't disagree with a lot of it. I'd probably just think of adding Brian Dawkins, Ray Lewis and Walter Jones

Sorry forgot about Ray Lewis.

Dawkins and Jones could certainly get in, but I don't think they are locks.

BTW, Tiki Barber will get in too, in my opinion.

BTW I think Tiki Barber won't get in.

Tubby
01-29-2007, 06:21 PM
Josh Brown
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
LDT
Walter Jones

just off the very top of my head

01-29-2007, 06:24 PM
Do yall think Ed Reed is a lock or does he have to do more. IMO if he continues to be the best safety in the NFL he will but as of now im not sure he is a lock. Maybe 1 more year.

Ravens1991
01-29-2007, 06:28 PM
Reed needs to have more time as the #1 S before he is called a lock.

Hurricane Ditka
01-29-2007, 06:28 PM
Why not just call this the let's all be homers thread?

Splat
01-29-2007, 06:33 PM
Why not just call this the let's all be homers thread?

These threads are always great I love how 75% of the players playing right now should be in the HOF.

eazyb81
01-29-2007, 06:35 PM
People need to keep in mind that simply having nice-looking stats doesn't always cut it for HOF nods; Players are judged in comparison to their peers, and HOF voters specifically like to see players that were dominant for their particular position.

Some of the players listed have great stats, but were never the best player at their position at any point in time during their career.

frogstomp
01-29-2007, 06:37 PM
Ray Lewis
Bailey
Manning
Brady
Faulk
Martin - won't be in right away, but will be in eventually.

01-29-2007, 06:39 PM
Manning
Champ
Harrison
Brady
Ray Lewis
Tony G
Ladanian
Favre
Brooks

jetsfan3
01-29-2007, 06:43 PM
CURTIS MARTIN

eazyb81
01-29-2007, 06:50 PM
CURTIS MARTIN

Just curious, but when was Curtis Martin ever the best RB in the league, or even one of the most feared RBs? Yes, he had some good seasons and was very durable, but I never remember him being one of the very best RBs in the NFL.

In my opinion, he seems like the RB version of Art Monk.

Shiver
01-29-2007, 06:51 PM
Sure Fire;

Brett Favre
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
LaDainian Tomlinson
Marvin Harrison
Orlando Pace
Jonathan Ogden
Michael Strahan
Champ Bailey
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
Brian Urlacher
Junior Seau
Warren Sapp

4pAc
01-29-2007, 06:52 PM
CURTIS MARTIN

Just curious, but when was Curtis Martin ever the best RB in the league, or even one of the most feared RBs? Yes, he had some good seasons and was very durable, but I never remember him being one of the very best RBs in the NFL.

In my opinion, he seems like the RB version of Art Monk.#4 in rushing yards all time doesnt get you in :shock:

Shiver
01-29-2007, 06:54 PM
If Curtis Martin gets in, then that paves the way for above average players who played a long time. Might as well put Keenan McCardell and Issac Bruce in too.

eazyb81
01-29-2007, 06:55 PM
CURTIS MARTIN

Just curious, but when was Curtis Martin ever the best RB in the league, or even one of the most feared RBs? Yes, he had some good seasons and was very durable, but I never remember him being one of the very best RBs in the NFL.

In my opinion, he seems like the RB version of Art Monk.#4 in rushing yards all time doesnt get you in :shock:

Again, has extremely durable, but when was he the best RB in the league?

Also, Art Monk retired as the career leader in receptions, yet is not in the Hall of Fame.

throwback54milkman
01-29-2007, 07:06 PM
don't forget about Adam Vinatieri....

as for coaches go (some may be in already)
-Parcells
-Gibbs
-Belichek
-Holmgrem
-Cowher

Splat
01-29-2007, 07:11 PM
Sure Fire;

Brett Favre
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
LaDainian Tomlinson
Marvin Harrison
Orlando Pace
Jonathan Ogden
Michael Strahan
Champ Bailey
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
Brian Urlacher
Junior Seau
Warren Sapp

Add Shields and Gonzo and like it. :D

VoteLynnSwan
01-29-2007, 07:12 PM
Sure Fire;

Brett Favre
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
LaDainian Tomlinson
Marvin Harrison
Orlando Pace
Jonathan Ogden
Michael Strahan
Champ Bailey
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
Brian Urlacher
Junior Seau
Warren Sapp

i'd agree with that list... but in a couple years i think you could add Olin Kreutz to that list... although Centers rarely get in, he has been the best in the game at his position for at least 3 years, and probably at least 3 or 4 more to come.

ny10804
01-29-2007, 07:31 PM
For Curtis Martin,

Year | Rushing Yards | League Rank | Yards from Scrimmage | League Rank

1995 | 1487 | 03 | 1748 | 05
1996 | 1152 | 09 | 1485 | 08
1997 | 1160 | 08 | 1456 | 10
1998 | 1287 | 08 | 1652 | 05
1999 | 1464 | 02 | 1723 | 05
2000 | 1204 | 12 | 1712 | 09
2001 | 1513 | 02 | 1883 | 04
2002 | 1094 | 15 | 1456 | 19
2003 | 1308 | 12 | 1570 | 14
2004 | 1697 | 01 | 1942 | 03

Pretty darn impressive. Among the top 10 in yards from scrimmage 8 times in his career. He led the league in rushing once, finished second twice, and came in third once. Although he was only the 'best' statistically once, hardly any other player can be that consistent. Running backs take the most hits, and most only have a shelf life of 5 or 6 years. He was consistently once of the best for 11 years.

My take: he's in.

TitleTown088
01-29-2007, 07:32 PM
i see like 4 lists without Brett Favre. Call me a packers homer, but that's just ******* stupid. he's easily the biggest lock currently in the NFL.

01-29-2007, 07:33 PM
i see like 4 lists without Brett Favre. Call me a packers homer, but that's just *********** stupid. he's easily the biggest lock currently in the NFL.

I think they're probably just forgetting him. Anyone that thinks he won't get in has to have some kind of disability.

Bohleive
01-29-2007, 07:35 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Favre, Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

eazyb81
01-29-2007, 07:40 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

Bohleive
01-29-2007, 07:46 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.
You have to factor in consistency, you can't say somebody else as better in their prime (what is this anyways? A 2-year window? 1?). Consistency helps eliminate the variables involved such as the argument that JO has faced weak opposition. Thats rediculous, he's faced and dominated so many different guys. JO was better than those guys in their prime anyways, he never had a single probowler on the line with him, and still dominated. OL has been a weak link for the Ravens for their entire existence almost and still JO has never not been looked at as a top 5 OT. Pace played on one of the most prolific offenses of all time and has not made as many pro bowls or all-pro teams. What have the Ravens always been known for? Defense.

PackerFan20
01-29-2007, 07:47 PM
I also put years it could take to put them in (including the 5yr delay)
Favre (5-6)
Manning(5-7)
Brady(5-10)
Warner?(10+)
Tomlinson(5-7)
Martin(5-7)
Tiki Barber(Does he count?)(5-9)
Faulk (6-16)
Harrison (5-15)
Galloway (10-20)
McCardell (10-20)
Pace (6-12)
Roaf (6-12)
Gonzalez (8-15)
Gates? (10+ for now)
Strahan (5-10)
Bailey (6-10)
Law (6-10)
Ray Lewis (5-6)
Urlacher (5-10)
Sapp (7-15)
Vinatieri (15-25)

Players who arent so surefire
Edge: If he is highly successful in Arizona than he could get in.

Ed Reed: As stated earlier another year as the top safety then he'll get in.

Ahman Green: Green Bay's (future or present) all-time leading rusher, which means he beat out Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung.

TO: He has to go out of his career as a guy with a good personality(GROW UP!)

Moss: If he has another great season then maybe he will. He's been quiet for awhile until Lan Kiffin came in.

Gramama Johnson: If he plays long enough.

Alexander: It depends if he rebounds.

Along list, but not saying all will get picked the same year.

01-29-2007, 07:49 PM
I also put years it could take to put them in (including the 5yr delay)
Favre (5-6)
Manning(5-7)
Brady(5-10)
Warner?(10+)
Tomlinson(5-7)
Martin(5-7)
Tiki Barber(Does he count?)(5-9)
Faulk (6-16)
Harrison (5-15)
Galloway (10-20)
McCardell (10-20)
Pace (6-12)
Roaf (6-12)
Gonzalez (8-15)
Gates? (10+ for now)
Strahan (5-10)
Bailey (6-10)
Law (6-10)
Ray Lewis (5-6)
Urlacher (5-10)
Sapp (7-15)
Vinatieri (15-25)

Warner doesn't have a shot in hell and I think you're way too harsh on these years. Favre, Ray, Peyton and some others are all first ballot locks. And 15 years for Vinatieri?

draftguru151
01-29-2007, 07:50 PM
Can I mention the DMVP without being a homer?

eazyb81
01-29-2007, 07:52 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.

Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?

PackerFan20
01-29-2007, 07:53 PM
Vinatieri (15-25)

Warner doesn't have a shot in hell and I think you're way too harsh on these years. Favre, Ray, Peyton and some others are all first ballot locks. And 15 years for Vinatieri?
I just dont know how kind the voters will be on a kicker.

SFbear
01-29-2007, 07:56 PM
Sure Fire;

Brett Favre
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
LaDainian Tomlinson
Marvin Harrison
Orlando Pace
Jonathan Ogden
Michael Strahan
Champ Bailey
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
Brian Urlacher
Junior Seau
Warren Sapp

Urlacher is not sure fire. A Superbowl MVP or another DMVP would definitely help the arguement but he is not a lock yet.

Bohleive
01-29-2007, 08:03 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.

Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?

Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, it was entirely Roaf. And why is it you don't mention any of the Cheifs interior linemen?
They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?
Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.

GB12
01-29-2007, 08:06 PM
don't forget about Adam Vinatieri....

as for coaches go (some may be in already)
-Parcells
-Gibbs
-Belichek
-Holmgrem
-Cowher

I'm not sure Holmgren gets in or not. He got to 3 SBs but only won one of them. He has a good record but he could go either way. Same for Cower.

Ahman Green: Green Bay's (future or present) all-time leading rusher, which means he beat out Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung.

No way Green gets in. He is not deserving at all of the HoF.

GB12
01-29-2007, 08:07 PM
i see like 4 lists without Brett Favre. Call me a packers homer, but that's just *********** stupid. he's easily the biggest lock currently in the NFL.

I think they're probably just forgetting him. Anyone that thinks he won't get in has to have some kind of disability.

Texico...

eazyb81
01-29-2007, 08:15 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.

Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?

Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?

What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.

Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.

Bohleive
01-29-2007, 08:26 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.

Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?

Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?

What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.

Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.

Obviously the whole thread is conjecture but you use stats to prove a point. OL only have one stat; awards. Tell me stats don't factor into HOF selections.
And what is this mid-tier competition? And who is this elite competition that the other two faced? Man-handled? Because of one two-sack game against Freeny in his dome? You do realize that since then he's faced Freeny twice and not given up a sack, right? And that was all past his 'prime'. Who else dominated him? I'm dying to know. Give some names.

bearsfan_51
01-29-2007, 08:34 PM
Do yall think Ed Reed is a lock or does he have to do more. IMO if he continues to be the best safety in the NFL he will but as of now im not sure he is a lock. Maybe 1 more year.
:lol:

Try like 5 or 6. You need at least 7-8 years at the top of your game to even be considered. Ask Terrell Davis.

It always amazes me how you guys think everyone gets into the HOF.

Pit Bull #53
01-29-2007, 08:37 PM
Ahman Green was listed in this thread :lol: That made my day

eazyb81
01-29-2007, 08:38 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.

Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?

Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?

What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.

Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.

Obviously the whole thread is conjecture but you use stats to prove a point. OL only have one stat; awards. Tell me stats don't factor into HOF selections.
And what is this mid-tier competition? And who is this elite competition that the other two faced? Man-handled? Because of one two-sack game against Freeny in his dome? You do realize that since then he's faced Freeny twice and not given up a sack, right? And that was all past his 'prime'. Who else dominated him? I'm dying to know. Give some names.

Pay attention: awards aren't "stats", they are awards, and there are a multitude of reasons why a particular player may get voted for an award. Is Ogden a great OT? Sure? Is he one of the top 5 ever? No. Was he at least the best in his era? NO.

As a Baltimore fan, i'm surprised that you continue to defend Ogden's performances against dominant speed rushers - he has struggled against them his entire career. Are you a new Ravens fan? That's the only excuse I can think of.

steelernation77
01-29-2007, 08:52 PM
hines ward is above swann and stallworth on pretty much all steeler receiving records, has a ring, and is a superbowl mvp

alan faneca has six pro bowls in a row and will probably continue that until he retires/doesn't start. (he's only 30)

sweetness34
01-29-2007, 09:00 PM
Olin Kruetz anyone? He's been one of the best C's in the NFL for what, 8 seasons now and he's got 2 more years left on his contract.

Bohleive
01-29-2007, 09:01 PM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.

Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?

Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?

What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.

Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.

Obviously the whole thread is conjecture but you use stats to prove a point. OL only have one stat; awards. Tell me stats don't factor into HOF selections.
And what is this mid-tier competition? And who is this elite competition that the other two faced? Man-handled? Because of one two-sack game against Freeny in his dome? You do realize that since then he's faced Freeny twice and not given up a sack, right? And that was all past his 'prime'. Who else dominated him? I'm dying to know. Give some names.

Pay attention: awards aren't "stats", they are awards, and there are a multitude of reasons why a particular player may get voted for an award. Is Ogden a great OT? Sure? Is he one of the top 5 ever? No. Was he at least the best in his era? NO.

As a Baltimore fan, i'm surprised that you continue to defend Ogden's performances against dominant speed rushers - he has struggled against them his entire career. Are you a new Ravens fan? That's the only excuse I can think of.

Wow, are frigging serious?
sta·tis·tic /stəˈtɪstɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[stuh-tis-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Statistics. a numerical fact or datum, esp. one computed from a sample.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=statistic&x=37&y=15
How is a number of awards not a statistic?
As for speed rushers, how about Kearse? Kearse faced Ogden twice a year with the Titans and got dominated by him annually. Is Kearse not a speed end? How about Joey Porter? What is he, a power guy?
Again, please, I'm dying for some examples of these guys who dominated Ogden in his prime. And I've been a Ravens fan since 1996 if you're so interested.

Shiver
01-29-2007, 09:13 PM
Er I forgot about Will Shields, I knew I would miss someone. Larry Allen too.

brat316
01-29-2007, 09:45 PM
IMO, Randy Moss should be a HOF.

- Currently 5th on the all-time list for TDs by a WR
- Currently 21st on the all-time list for yards by a WR
- Had one of the most dominant rookie seasons for an offense player
- Led the league in TDs three times
- 1st player in history to average 100 yards and 1 TD per game
- Was regarded as one of the most dominant WR during his years as a Viking

cunningham06
01-29-2007, 09:53 PM
IMO, Randy Moss should be a HOF.

- Currently 5th on the all-time list for TDs by a WR
- Currently 21st on the all-time list for yards by a WR
- Had one of the most dominant rookie seasons for an offense player
- Led the league in TDs three times
- 1st player in history to average 100 yards and 1 TD per game
- Was regarded as one of the most dominant WR during his years as a Viking

Had he stayed in Minnesota with Culpepper he would make the HOF but he fell off the face of the earth into the black hole and has not produced much so I don't think he will get in.

01-29-2007, 09:54 PM
IMO, Randy Moss should be a HOF.

- Currently 5th on the all-time list for TDs by a WR
- Currently 21st on the all-time list for yards by a WR
- Had one of the most dominant rookie seasons for an offense player
- Led the league in TDs three times
- 1st player in history to average 100 yards and 1 TD per game
- Was regarded as one of the most dominant WR during his years as a Viking

Unless he starts to produce more in OAK, his reputation will keep him out.

doingthisinsteadofwork
01-29-2007, 10:00 PM
Id just like to point out that everything is Moss's fault.

Finsfan79
01-29-2007, 10:34 PM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.

01-29-2007, 10:55 PM
Id just like to point out that everything is Moss's fault.

You're right. Andrew Walter and Aaron Brooks are great QB's.

Pit Bull #53
01-29-2007, 11:16 PM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.

Kevin Carter is not a HOF. Some of y'all need to raise your standards quite a bit.

01-29-2007, 11:22 PM
Dan Klecko is a lock. Along with the Sorginator.

bearsfan_51
01-29-2007, 11:22 PM
Olin Kruetz anyone? He's been one of the best C's in the NFL for what, 8 seasons now and he's got 2 more years left on his contract.
He's far from a sure thing. Interior lineman rarely are.

Again, raise your standards people, drastically.

bearsfan_51
01-29-2007, 11:23 PM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

P-L
01-29-2007, 11:51 PM
When did the Hall of Fame become "The Hall of Pretty Good Players?"

Geo
01-30-2007, 12:28 AM
can't believe i left him off my list, but Marshall Faulk is a lock
He isn't in the NFL anymore but will be eligible for the HOF soon and will definetly get in. Same with Cris Carter, Rod Woodson, Deion Sanders.
Wrong on more than one count.

First off, Marshall Faulk hasn't yet turned in his retirement papers to the league office.

If he does, considering eligibility doesn't occur until 5 years after the last game played and Faulk's last game was Week 17 of the 2005 season, Faulk wouldn't be eligible until the 2011 ballot.

Finz99
01-30-2007, 12:29 AM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

Oh god, Bearsfan_51 is getting mad again, I have a feeling a poll is going to be made soon...

yourfavestoner
01-30-2007, 12:31 AM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

:claps:

TheChampIsHere
01-30-2007, 01:17 AM
this poll doesnt make any sense at all

4pAc
01-30-2007, 01:43 AM
I choose Cingular

niel89
01-30-2007, 03:23 AM
the one guy i wish that would make it but i know he wont:

Rod Smith


i love his attitude toward the game. One of the greatest hard workers ive see. went from undrafted to where he is now. i just really think he is one best wide recievers just based apon attitude. sadly he only has 3 probolws and 1 allpro, is 15th in catches and 16th in yards. has 8 1,00 yard seasons. 2 SB rings. but sadly he never really dominated that i know of.


After setting Denver Broncos franchise record for touchdowns: "I really don’t want to talk about me," he said. "I didn’t want to talk about me last week, and I don’t this week. I want to talk about our team."

Addict
01-30-2007, 04:55 AM
the only ones in without doubt would be...

favre
peyton manning
tomlinson
ray lewis
and tom brady

all others are open for discussion.

GSOT
01-30-2007, 05:17 AM
Torry Holt...WILL make the HOF....also to the guy who said Warner will make it.... :lol:

FloridaFootball
01-30-2007, 07:03 AM
If Art Monk can't get in, Harrison sure won't. Monk has 3 superbowl rings and higher ypc than Harrison, led the NFL in receptions and broke every single major record for a WR at his time, and Art Monk still isn't in.



:evil: fuking peter king.

Finsfan79
01-30-2007, 07:55 AM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

I will take Edwin Pope's opinion over yours thank you. Considering he is one of 4 people that have been to every super bowl and has been covering the NFL before you lived most likely. At the same time he has a HoF vote. He says Zach is a HoF then he is.

Kevin Carter could end up making the lists, I said Could not for sure.

But Zach Thomas will be in the HoF.

EdReedUnstoppable
01-30-2007, 07:55 AM
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.

I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.

What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.

Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?

Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?

What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.

Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.

Obviously the whole thread is conjecture but you use stats to prove a point. OL only have one stat; awards. Tell me stats don't factor into HOF selections.
And what is this mid-tier competition? And who is this elite competition that the other two faced? Man-handled? Because of one two-sack game against Freeny in his dome? You do realize that since then he's faced Freeny twice and not given up a sack, right? And that was all past his 'prime'. Who else dominated him? I'm dying to know. Give some names.

Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

EdReedUnstoppable
01-30-2007, 08:01 AM
Do yall think Ed Reed is a lock or does he have to do more. IMO if he continues to be the best safety in the NFL he will but as of now im not sure he is a lock. Maybe 1 more year.

Ed Reed needs to continue to be the most dominant safety of his era for 3 or 4 more years. That will be tough for him since he is already 28, and up and comers like Polamalu, Donte Whitner, Ko Simpson, Michael Huff, and even his own teammate Dawan Landry are all younger and will be at a high level for a longer time.

draftguru151
01-30-2007, 08:39 AM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

Way to generalize because one Dolphin fan said something about Kevin Carter, who has been on the team for 2 years. :roll:

Someone mentioned Ahman Green but Dolphins fans are the worst? Please.

eazyb81
01-30-2007, 08:45 AM
Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

Splat
01-30-2007, 08:46 AM
And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

You can't really mean that haha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 08:46 AM
I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.

draftguru151
01-30-2007, 08:55 AM
I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.

If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.

draftguru151
01-30-2007, 08:58 AM
For the OL argument, I think both Roaf and Ogden will get it, but for who is better, it's gotta be Ogden. Roaf is an amazing player, but Odgen may be the best OT ever (not saying he is, but he is closer than Roaf). I love Roaf, it was obvious how important he was to that offense last season when he was hurt, and this season as well. But pure dominance over a career, it's Ogden.

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 08:58 AM
I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.

If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.

His career isn't over. He'll be 29 in August and is already 17th or 18th I believe on the all time rushing list. People are saying Curtis Martin is a lock. When did Martin ever dominate? He compiled. James could easily do the same until he is 33. And end up with indentical numbers to Martin.

EDIT: Actually James is currently 19th on the list. He coudl easily pass both Eddie George and Tiki Barber and move to 17th in his first game next year.

Finsfan79
01-30-2007, 09:05 AM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

Way to generalize because one Dolphin fan said something about Kevin Carter, who has been on the team for 2 years. :roll:

Someone mentioned Ahman Green but Dolphins fans are the worst? Please.

He has something against Zach Thomas (most likely from being a huge urlacher fan seems they often have a problem for some odd reason).

As for Kevin Carter he would be a Ram if he did go in (he was dominate then and won a Ring then), I doubt he will but his numbers arent horrible for the length of time (longevity is looked at for the HoF in the NFL) if he keeps playing another 2-3 years and all. He is the third active leader in Sacks in the NFL currently behind Strahan and Jason Taylor

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/3235


As for zach he has average over 150 tackles a year over a ten year career http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/4392

he has done it in multiple systems with multiple D-Coordinators and Head Coaches so it is not just a single system letting him make the tackles. But, whatever he can believe what he wants. I will trust the opinion of the guys that actually have a vote instead of a kid on a message board :)

frogstomp
01-30-2007, 09:06 AM
I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.

If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.

His career isn't over. He'll be 29 in August and is already 17th or 18th I believe on the all time rushing list. People are saying Curtis Martin is a lock. When did Martin ever dominate? He compiled. James could easily do the same until he is 33. And end up with indentical numbers to Martin.

EDIT: Actually James is currently 19th on the list. He coudl easily pass both Eddie George and Tiki Barber and move to 17th in his first game next year.

Hey, hey... Martin did win the rushing title once! ... by one yard...

Finsfan79
01-30-2007, 09:07 AM
I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.

If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.

His career isn't over. He'll be 29 in August and is already 17th or 18th I believe on the all time rushing list. People are saying Curtis Martin is a lock. When did Martin ever dominate? He compiled. James could easily do the same until he is 33. And end up with indentical numbers to Martin.

EDIT: Actually James is currently 19th on the list. He coudl easily pass both Eddie George and Tiki Barber and move to 17th in his first game next year.

If he hands around for 4-5 years and is a compiler he could do it. But, that is a long time for a running back with wear and tear. It doesnt help his case that the year Indy ditches him they go the furtherest ever (even though it is a team game and people forget that often specially over QBs).

I love Edge though, and I am biased from going to the U.

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 09:10 AM
I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.

If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.

His career isn't over. He'll be 29 in August and is already 17th or 18th I believe on the all time rushing list. People are saying Curtis Martin is a lock. When did Martin ever dominate? He compiled. James could easily do the same until he is 33. And end up with indentical numbers to Martin.

EDIT: Actually James is currently 19th on the list. He coudl easily pass both Eddie George and Tiki Barber and move to 17th in his first game next year.

Hey, hey... Martin did win the rushing title once! ... by one yard...

It a very interesting topic. Taking biases aside because I have one here with Tiki, do you let more people in like Martin because of their total career compiling numbers. Or do you take more guys like Tiki, whose career numbers are decent but dominated for a course of a few years. Sure you are going to get that rare guy like Tomlinson who are both. However lets say James stays on this pace for 4 more years. Most likely he'll have close to 14,000 yards rushing but a 4.0 or 4.1 avg. Tiki on the other hand had three straight years like no other RB and averages 4.7 over his career. But his final rushing numbers will only be 10,400.

Bohleive
01-30-2007, 09:11 AM
Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

eazyb81
01-30-2007, 09:29 AM
I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

I'm sorry, but you're an idiot - do you even watch Baltimore games? The DEs I named did indeed line up against Ogden during the game; I know this may shock the hell out of you, but DEs sometimes change which side they line up on during a game....crazy, eh?

Finally, i'm not even arguing for Roaf - I think Pace is the best Olineman of our generation. I have no idea why you keep trying to change the argument over to Roaf; i'm guessing you have a serious case of ADD.

Splat
01-30-2007, 09:32 AM
Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 09:35 AM
Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

How many times was he an All Pro? Just wondering. Not saying Roaf isn't a hall of famer, but pro bowls for OTs are useless. I'm sure Roaf didn't deserve at least 3 or 4 of those pro bowls.

Splat
01-30-2007, 09:37 AM
Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

How many times was he an All Pro? Just wondering. Not saying Roaf isn't a hall of famer, but pro bowls for OTs are useless. I'm sure Roaf didn't deserve at least 3 or 4 of those pro bowls.

Roaf was on the all 90's team and that was before he came to KC and he got even better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_1990s_All-Decade_Team

Bohleive
01-30-2007, 09:40 AM
I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

I'm sorry, but you're an idiot - do you even watch Baltimore games? The DEs I named did indeed line up against Ogden during the game; I know this may shock the hell out of you, but DEs sometimes change which side they line up on during a game....crazy, eh?

Finally, i'm not even arguing for Roaf - I think Pace is the best Olineman of our generation. I have no idea why you keep trying to change the argument over to Roaf; i'm guessing you have a serious case of ADD.

I was responding to someone else on Roaf. And of course I realize that they change who they lineup against, I even made that point with Merriman, who got no sacks when lined up against Ogden. And as for Peppers, no, he never lined up against him. Period. He doesn't get moved around; that's the way they play him.
And do you ever watch Ravens games? I haven't missed one since '98. Are you some kind of avid Ravens fan? My points stand.
I think you're the one with ADD. You keep changing your argument. What ever happened to a number of Pro Bowls not being a stat?
You're just spouting off bull****. Give some evidence to back up your opinion.

eazyb81
01-30-2007, 09:43 AM
Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

How many times was he an All Pro? Just wondering. Not saying Roaf isn't a hall of famer, but pro bowls for OTs are useless. I'm sure Roaf didn't deserve at least 3 or 4 of those pro bowls.

Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.



:roll:

Bohleive
01-30-2007, 09:46 AM
Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.

You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.

I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.

How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.

How many times was he an All Pro? Just wondering. Not saying Roaf isn't a hall of famer, but pro bowls for OTs are useless. I'm sure Roaf didn't deserve at least 3 or 4 of those pro bowls.

Roaf was on the all 90's team and that was before he came to KC and he got even better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_1990s_All-Decade_Team
You've changed my mind on Roaf, he now makes my HOF list. I still don't think he was better than Ogden though.

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 09:47 AM
Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.



:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

eazyb81
01-30-2007, 10:10 AM
I was responding to someone else on Roaf.

Then respond to them directly.

And of course I realize that they change who they lineup against, I even made that point with Merriman, who got no sacks when lined up against Ogden.

So if you realize DEs change where they line up, why did you argue it for so long? That makes no sense. Anyways, glad we now agree on the DEs that have given Ogden trouble over the past couple years. Moving on...

And do you ever watch Ravens games? I haven't missed one since '98. Are you some kind of avid Ravens fan? My points stand.

I am a fan of the NFL, and I true to watch many Baltimore games because of their defense - Sunday Ticket is a wonderful product, you should look into it. And what points did you make again? All you have said during this tirade is to name DEs that have been successful against Ogden; I have done this, you agree with them, so I fail to see what "points" are left standing.

I think you're the one with ADD. You keep changing your argument. What ever happened to a number of Pro Bowls not being a stat?
You're just spouting off bull****. Give some evidence to back up your opinion.

While the accumulation of Pro Bowl awards could loosely be considered a stat, a Pro Bowl award itself is not a quantitative stat that can be measured; rather, it is a subjective award voted on by moronic fans. It's too bad that more stats aren't collected for Olinemen, but we have to work with what is at our disposal - sacks allowed and our own eyes. And my own eyes tell me Ogden was not the best Olineman of our generation.

eazyb81
01-30-2007, 10:10 AM
Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.



:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

Of course, but you could say that for everyone, so i'm not sure what your point is.

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 10:13 AM
Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.



:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

Of course, but you could say that for everyone, so i'm not sure what your point is.

My point is I wouldn't throw around the number 11 pro bowls as a good justification of why he should make the HOF. Which is why I orginially asked how many times he was voted All Pro before I had the sarcastic southeast media bias comment with the rolling eyes thrown in my face.

Splat
01-30-2007, 10:14 AM
Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.



:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

You could say the same thing about Michael Strahan.

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 10:15 AM
Yeah, we all know about that southeast media bias, especially for the dynasty known as the early 90's New Orleans Saints - that franchise was just a Pro Bowl factory.



:roll:

No media bias. Once you make two or three deserving Pro Bowls on the offensive line, most likely you make it 8 in a row. Thats just the way it is. Look at Larry Allen this year. Roaf might of deserved to make all 11, but I seriously doubt that.

You could say the same thing about Michael Strahan.

Actually no. DEs for example are generally voted to the Pro Bowl primarily on their sack counts. Strahan hasn't really made Pro Bowls he doesn't deserve. Which is why he hasn't had 8 or 9 in a row. However that sometimes leads to one dimensional pass rushing only DEs making the Pro Bowl.

Bohleive
01-30-2007, 10:22 AM
I was responding to someone else on Roaf.

Then respond to them directly.

And of course I realize that they change who they lineup against, I even made that point with Merriman, who got no sacks when lined up against Ogden.

So if you realize DEs change where they line up, why did you argue it for so long? That makes no sense. Anyways, glad we now agree on the DEs that have given Ogden trouble over the past couple years. Moving on...

And do you ever watch Ravens games? I haven't missed one since '98. Are you some kind of avid Ravens fan? My points stand.

I am a fan of the NFL, and I true to watch many Baltimore games because of their defense - Sunday Ticket is a wonderful product, you should look into it. And what points did you make again? All you have said during this tirade is to name DEs that have been successful against Ogden; I have done this, you agree with them, so I fail to see what "points" are left standing.

I think you're the one with ADD. You keep changing your argument. What ever happened to a number of Pro Bowls not being a stat?
You're just spouting off bull****. Give some evidence to back up your opinion.

While the accumulation of Pro Bowl awards could loosely be considered a stat, a Pro Bowl award itself is not a quantitative stat that can be measured; rather, it is a subjective award voted on by moronic fans. It's too bad that more stats aren't collected for Olinemen, but we have to work with what is at our disposal - sacks allowed and our own eyes. And my own eyes tell me Ogden was not the best Olineman of our generation.

First off, what? I never argued that DL didn't shift where they lined up. I merely said certain guys didn't line up vs JO. That remains true of Peppers. As for Mathis, I misspoke; he rarely lined up against JO and did nothing against him when he did. And I never agreed with you on JO getting dominated by anyone on your list other than Freeny, for one game out of three, in the dome, with bum knee. In fact I never conceded that they even 'gave him trouble'.
Secondly, you gave names, that's it. I responded with facts. None of those names got a sack against Ogden this season. Go ahead, respond with facts. Your opinion only has so much weight.
Finally, Pro Bowls can be measured; 3 Pro Bowls, see theres a measurement. It's quantitative. Of course the award itself is not intrinsicly a statistic, a tackle by itself without numbers, the simple act, is not a quantitative statistic either. What's your point? And of course fans weigh in on pro bowls, but you neglect to mention that coaches and players have an equal say. Besides, who would you rather be the third party? Tennis fans. At least the fans follow the game. The system is flawed, but it works.

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 10:28 AM
Ogden most certainly made Pro Bowls he didn't deserve, but right now he is the best OT of this era. Pace had a chance to pass him but I don't its gonna happen anymore. The fact that he won a Super Bowl and was on a unit that blocked for a 2,000 yard rusher are two huge things he has over most OTs.

eazyb81
01-30-2007, 10:55 AM
First off, what? I never argued that DL didn't shift where they lined up. I merely said certain guys didn't line up vs JO. That remains true of Peppers. As for Mathis, I misspoke; he rarely lined up against JO and did nothing against him when he did. And I never agreed with you on JO getting dominated by anyone on your list other than Freeny, for one game out of three, in the dome, with bum knee. In fact I never conceded that they even 'gave him trouble'.

I mentioned about 5 players that gave Ogden trouble, and the only one you refuted was Peppers. Therefore, it was implied that you agreed with me on the other players. I know for an absolute fact that Mathis did indeed get a sack off of Ogden, so i'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously at this point.

Secondly, you gave names, that's it. I responded with facts. None of those names got a sack against Ogden this season. Go ahead, respond with facts. Your opinion only has so much weight.

LOL, what "facts" did you respond with outside of Pro Bowls? You have mentioned ad nauseum about Ogden's vaunted Pro Bowl nominations, but that simply indicates how well he was regarded by the fans - it has no bearing on his actual play.

It appears that the crutch of your argument is the number of Ogden's Pro Bowl nominations, which is fairly weak on your part. Why even enter this discussion if the only tool you can use to judge a player's worth is how many times he has been to Hawaii? You could easily look up this information on wikipedia and save yourself a lot of time.

Finally, Pro Bowls can be measured; 3 Pro Bowls, see theres a measurement. It's quantitative. Of course the award itself is not intrinsicly a statistic, a tackle by itself without numbers, the simple act, is not a quantitative statistic either. What's your point?

You really can't comprehend by now what my point? Jesus man, you are slow. My whole point, which we have gone back and forth on numerous times, is that a Pro Bowl nomination is qualitative and subjective, not quantitative. It's a popularity contest. Period. End of story. I wish you could realize this, but it's obvious by now that you're slower than the average bear.

eazyb81
01-30-2007, 10:57 AM
Ogden most certainly made Pro Bowls he didn't deserve, but right now he is the best OT of this era. Pace had a chance to pass him but I don't its gonna happen anymore. The fact that he won a Super Bowl and was on a unit that blocked for a 2,000 yard rusher are two huge things he has over most OTs.

:?:

Pace has a SB ring and was the best blocker for one of the greatest offensive units of this era - The Greatest Show On Turf.

Jughead10
01-30-2007, 11:00 AM
Ogden most certainly made Pro Bowls he didn't deserve, but right now he is the best OT of this era. Pace had a chance to pass him but I don't its gonna happen anymore. The fact that he won a Super Bowl and was on a unit that blocked for a 2,000 yard rusher are two huge things he has over most OTs.

:?:

Pace has a SB ring and was the best blocker for one of the greatest offensive units of this era - The Greatest Show On Turf.

I know Pace has a ring as well. But the 2,000 yard rusher is much more impressive than blocking for the greatest show on turf. Especially since it was a different year than Ogden's Super Bowl year. Pace seems to tiring out and getting banged up a bit earlier in his career than Ogden. I thought Pace would be considered the best of this era but I don't think that is the case anymore.

Bohleive
01-30-2007, 11:06 AM
First off, what? I never argued that DL didn't shift where they lined up. I merely said certain guys didn't line up vs JO. That remains true of Peppers. As for Mathis, I misspoke; he rarely lined up against JO and did nothing against him when he did. And I never agreed with you on JO getting dominated by anyone on your list other than Freeny, for one game out of three, in the dome, with bum knee. In fact I never conceded that they even 'gave him trouble'.

I mentioned about 5 players that gave Ogden trouble, and the only one you refuted was Peppers. Therefore, it was implied that you agreed with me on the other players. I know for an absolute fact that Mathis did indeed get a sack off of Ogden, so i'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously at this point.

Secondly, you gave names, that's it. I responded with facts. None of those names got a sack against Ogden this season. Go ahead, respond with facts. Your opinion only has so much weight.

LOL, what "facts" did you respond with outside of Pro Bowls? You have mentioned ad nauseum about Ogden's vaunted Pro Bowl nominations, but that simply indicates how well he was regarded by the fans - it has no bearing on his actual play.

It appears that the crutch of your argument is the number of Ogden's Pro Bowl nominations, which is fairly weak on your part. Why even enter this discussion if the only tool you can use to judge a player's worth is how many times he has been to Hawaii? You could easily look up this information on wikipedia and save yourself a lot of time.

Finally, Pro Bowls can be measured; 3 Pro Bowls, see theres a measurement. It's quantitative. Of course the award itself is not intrinsicly a statistic, a tackle by itself without numbers, the simple act, is not a quantitative statistic either. What's your point?

You really can't comprehend by now what my point? Jesus man, you are slow. My whole point, which we have gone back and forth on numerous times, is that a Pro Bowl nomination is qualitative and subjective, not quantitative. It's a popularity contest. Period. End of story. I wish you could realize this, but it's obvious by now that you're slower than the average bear.

First, Mathis DID NOT get a sack against Ogden. He got one off of Pashos in the playoff game if that is what you are refferring to. Second, I did gave facts; # of sacks vs. Third, I never even mentioned the number of pro bowls that JO has been to. Fourth, I said that a number of pro bowls was a statistic, nothing else. If you were making the point that they were subjective, it was nebulous at best. Of course they are subjective. So are HOF selections. That doesn't mean they are irrelevant. I also already said that the system, while subjective, is still useful. By your logic, HOF selections are a popularity contest too, so why shouldn't pro bowls be considered?

eacantdraft
01-30-2007, 11:15 AM
Warren Sapp is not a sure thing and neither is Curtis Martin (the Art Monk among RBs).

bearsfan_51
01-30-2007, 11:20 AM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

I will take Edwin Pope's opinion over yours thank you. Considering he is one of 4 people that have been to every super bowl and has been covering the NFL before you lived most likely. At the same time he has a HoF vote. He says Zach is a HoF then he is.

Kevin Carter could end up making the lists, I said Could not for sure.

But Zach Thomas will be in the HoF.
Edwin Pope writes for the Miami Herald, what the hell do you expect him to say? Jesus Christ.

This is not an overgeneralization, and I have no agenda against Thomas, I'm just sick of every single Dolphins fan thinking Thomas has a legacy in this game when he doesn't. We even made a freakin' poll if he had ANY chance of making the HOF, and guess what, he lost!!!!

He was never the best at his position.

The Dolphins haven't done bumpkis in the playoffs in his career.

He's not a game changer, he's not influential, he doesn't make impact plays, and he doesn't have the ProBowls or the awards.

He's a tackling machine, and he's a scrappy player, but that doesn't get you in the HOF. Give it up.

Space Ghost
01-30-2007, 12:11 PM
QB: Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Tom Brady
RB: Marshall Faulk, Ladanian Tomlinson, Curtis Martin
WR: Torry Holt, Marvin Harrison
TE: Tony Gonzalez
OL: Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden
DL: Michael Strahan, Warren Sapp, Jason Taylor
LB: Ray Lewis, Derrick Brooks, Junior Seau
DB: Champ Bailey, Brian Dawkins
K: Adam Vinatieri

Thats 20 and there are some younger guys who could make their way onto this list soon so it could be anywhere from 20 to 35, Im going to say no more than 30 though.

Finz99
01-30-2007, 04:55 PM
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.

I will take Edwin Pope's opinion over yours thank you. Considering he is one of 4 people that have been to every super bowl and has been covering the NFL before you lived most likely. At the same time he has a HoF vote. He says Zach is a HoF then he is.

Kevin Carter could end up making the lists, I said Could not for sure.

But Zach Thomas will be in the HoF.
Edwin Pope writes for the Miami Herald, what the hell do you expect him to say? Jesus Christ.

This is not an overgeneralization, and I have no agenda against Thomas, I'm just sick of every single Dolphins fan thinking Thomas has a legacy in this game when he doesn't. We even made a freakin' poll if he had ANY chance of making the HOF, and guess what, he lost!!!!

He was never the best at his position.

The Dolphins haven't done bumpkis in the playoffs in his career.

He's not a game changer, he's not influential, he doesn't make impact plays, and he doesn't have the ProBowls or the awards.

He's a tackling machine, and he's a scrappy player, but that doesn't get you in the HOF. Give it up.

ZOMG NOT A POLL!!!!1111!!111!!! :roll:

I personally think him and Jason Taylor will be in the Hall of Fame.

Shiver
01-30-2007, 05:32 PM
And TMQ's Gregg Easterbrook said that Jeff Saturday was a future Hall of Famer. :roll: Just because on person said something, doesn't make it so. Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor epitomize the "Hall of the very good." They aren't famous, and when this era is looked back upon, they won't be looked upon like there more heralded peers.

sodar21
01-30-2007, 08:39 PM
You can toss Randy Moss in as a sure fire hall of famer. His strech of dominance was probably the greatest ever by any reciever.

yourfavestoner
01-30-2007, 08:44 PM
Warren Sapp is not a sure thing and neither is Curtis Martin (the Art Monk among RBs).

Warren Sapp probably has the best chance to make it into the Hall than any of his Tampa Bay counterparts like Brooks, Rice, Barber, and Lynch. If one player from that defense makes it into the Hall, it's going to be Sapp.

sodar21
01-30-2007, 09:26 PM
Brooks will get in. Rice is a bit of a longshot but he does have great career sack totals.

Barber and Lynch won't get in though.

njx9
01-30-2007, 09:41 PM
just because being a homer is fun occasionally...

rod smith should get in, imo. i doubt he will solely on the "never the best at his position" bit, but there were years (pre-griese) in which he was one of the top wrs in the league.

tom nalen should get in, but as 51 noted, the interior o-line bias (and the denver bias) will likely keep him out.

i'd argue for lepsis, but being a top 5-10 LT is just nowhere near good enough. he could have his bust put up a mile or so down the street.

al wilson strikes me as a guy who could be on the list for a few years before dropping off. as does john lynch.

and just because i'm being a homer, i'm going to completely ignore the post guidelines and say that it's terrible that randy gradishar hasn't been inducted and that gary zimmerman likely won't be.