PDA

View Full Version : Winston Justice's game last night....worst ever?


DMWSackMachine
10-01-2007, 12:01 PM
I'm just wondering, has anyone ever seen a worse game from a LT in their history of watching the NFL (no college stories, please)?

I mean, I'm a Cowboys fan, and I am coming from the unique perspective of a team that enjoyed the Torrin Tucker era at LT for 2/3 of a season.....with DREW BLEDSOE at QB, to boot. I have never seen anyone play the position that bad in 15 + years of watching the NFL religiously.

It's funny, because I was watching on NFL network's Top 10 most unbreakable records last week, and Derrick Thomas' 7 sack game was like 8 or 9 on the list, and everyone was going off about how no one even stood a chance at approaching it, let alone breaking it......and then here Osi Umenyiora is looking like a Reggie White and Deacon Jones hybrid on steroids not 7 days later.

Osi is a really good player, don't get me wrong, but he is by no means a bull rusher extraordinaire. After a while, he got to the point where he didn't even try to use his moves, he just lowered his head and ran right through Justice, time and time again.

Which begs the question: How on earth did the Eagles coaching staff allow him on the field? He couldn't possibly play well in practice and then come out and look that bad, they must have known going in that he would be a big-time liability. And, given that, how on earth could they have left him out there by himself against a Pro Bowl caliber pass rusher? No chip, no double, no pass-pro slide. All by himself.

So.....I'm eager to hear, has anyone ever witnessed worse?

fenikz
10-01-2007, 12:05 PM
Leonard Davis was pretty close, I mean he wasn't 6 sacks bad but he was bad.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-01-2007, 12:11 PM
Closest thing I've ever seen is just about every game Kwame Harris played at RT.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8117850700698798205&q=Kwame+Harris&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Green Bay Scat
10-01-2007, 12:23 PM
he allowed 5 sacks(Saw 3 that were against him for sure), Osi got one on a twist stunt where Mahe tried to block Osi, also its harder going from exclusivly RT, to LT, but people dont really care. Hes still got talent


edit- on a random note, i lovfe maple bars

The Great Jonathan Vilma
10-01-2007, 12:25 PM
He was weak, no doubt, but give the eagles coaches a slap, what the hell were they thinking, especially 4 sacks later...........wake up!! Your coaching a national football league game!!

SubNoize
10-01-2007, 12:32 PM
Leonard Davis was pretty close, I mean he wasn't 6 sacks bad but he was bad.

yeah because he's a guard and you played him out of position.

Addict
10-01-2007, 12:34 PM
no, never seen worse, Osi ran past him, bull-rushed him and everything in between. Terrible game, on the bright side he can only go up.

Green Bay Scat
10-01-2007, 12:35 PM
yeah because he's a guard and you played him out of position.

if ud played OLine before ud know that RT and LT are completly different possitions. Muscle memory doesnt help u when uve been a RT for 2 years then all of a sudden they throw u in a LT, they really should have helped him the whole night. If you write with ur right hand, try writing a 20 page story in handwriting with ur left. Some people can do it easier than others.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 12:37 PM
I'm just wondering, has anyone ever seen a worse game from a LT in their history of watching the NFL (no college stories, please)?

I mean, I'm a Cowboys fan, and I am coming from the unique perspective of a team that enjoyed the Torrin Tucker era at LT for 2/3 of a season.....with DREW BLEDSOE at QB, to boot. I have never seen anyone play the position that bad in 15 + years of watching the NFL religiously.

It's funny, because I was watching on NFL network's Top 10 most unbreakable records last week, and Derrick Thomas' 7 sack game was like 8 or 9 on the list, and everyone was going off about how no one even stood a chance at approaching it, let alone breaking it......and then here Osi Umenyiora is looking like a Reggie White and Deacon Jones hybrid on steroids not 7 days later.

Osi is a really good player, don't get me wrong, but he is by no means a bull rusher extraordinaire. After a while, he got to the point where he didn't even try to use his moves, he just lowered his head and ran right through Justice, time and time again.

Which begs the question: How on earth did the Eagles coaching staff allow him on the field? He couldn't possibly play well in practice and then come out and look that bad, they must have known going in that he would be a big-time liability. And, given that, how on earth could they have left him out there by himself against a Pro Bowl caliber pass rusher? No chip, no double, no pass-pro slide. All by himself.

So.....I'm eager to hear, has anyone ever witnessed worse?


I put it on Andy Reid. Ive seen alot of Justice since he was drafted (I desperately wanted the Giants to get him) and he's done a great job with everyone he's went against prior to last night. Ive seen him shut down plenty of good to solid DEs prior to this game.

But not giving a guy in his first start ANY help against one of the best DEs in the game is beyond me. Reid did a horrible job coaching last night.

I understand not sliding protection because of our defensive fronts, and stunting and blitzing, but at least chip the guy. Put a TE on that side. Do SOMETHING. Osi looked like a man possessed out there.

But let's not kill Justice for that game. Not entirely at least. He's a good player, he just got owned. And he got no help. Theres no way you let a guy get his first start against one of the best DEs in the game, and give him no help at all. That was idiotic.

Damix
10-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Got to give a lot of credit to Osi last night, all it seemed like quite a few of his sacks were up the gut and not against Justice.

Still didn't play well, but worst ever is a little stretch

ks_perfection
10-01-2007, 12:42 PM
Closest thing I've ever seen is just about every game Kwame Harris played at RT.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8117850700698798205&q=Kwame+Harris&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

I can't blame him for the first one. The corner he was trying to block was half his size and ran around him in the openfield. It was funny seeing him do a face plant with no one around him though.

SubNoize
10-01-2007, 12:44 PM
if ud played OLine before ud know that RT and LT are completly different possitions. Muscle memory doesnt help u when uve been a RT for 2 years then all of a sudden they throw u in a LT, they really should have helped him the whole night. If you write with ur right hand, try writing a 20 page story in handwriting with ur left. Some people can do it easier than others.

i was talking about Leonard Davis, who was a guard and the Cards tried to make him a LT, and now that he's back to guard he was mauling people again.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 12:45 PM
Got to give a lot of credit to Osi last night, all it seemed like quite a few of his sacks were up the gut and not against Justice.

Still didn't play well, but worst ever is a little stretch

He stunted alot in that game. We were overloading the middle to get pressure on McNabb, and force him to roll out at our DEs.

It was a brilliant plan by Spags, force McNabb to scramble at our strength (the outside) by bringing pressure up the middle. He knew McNabb wasn't healthy enough to do that, and it was like shooting fish in a bucket for our defense.

And Reid did NOTHING to counter this. No screen passes, no max protect, nothing. Horrible job by Reid.

Geo
10-01-2007, 12:47 PM
I couldn't agree more, and said as much in the Gameday thread. The Eagles offensive coaches, and Andy Reid especially, completely and shamefully dropped the ball. Playing at Giants Stadium is tough, especially on primetime, and I still can't believe how pathetic a job the coaches did last night.

Coincidentally, Colts rookie left tackle Tony Ugoh had his best game yet yesterday. The Colts have tweaked their offense to help him out, that's called good coaching or at least smart thinking. Cripes.

For me, this is yet another reason/incident for why Andy Reid needs to stop getting the pass that he does. Enough. He won division titles when the NFC East was piss-poor and the Eagles won the division last year because the Cowboys and Giants folded down the stretch. Defensive coordinator Jim Johnson has been/is the bigger contributing factor to the success of the Philadelphia Eagles than Reid, the defense this year has put the team in position to win all four games despite losing integral starters Lito Sheppard and Brian Dawkins.

We don't even need to mention the questionable decision-making he's made as the de facto general manager (thanks again for drafting Fred Ex over Reggie Wayne).

VoteLynnSwan
10-01-2007, 12:50 PM
Closest thing I've ever seen is just about every game Kwame Harris played at RT.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8117850700698798205&q=Kwame+Harris&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

that video is really sad to watch... he just looks completely lost, running around like an idiot

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 12:50 PM
I couldn't agree more, and said as much in the Gameday thread. The Eagles offensive coaches, and Andy Reid especially, completely and shamefully dropped the ball. Playing at Giants Stadium is tough, especially on primetime, and I still can't believe how pathetic a job the coaches did last night.

Coincidentally, Colts rookie left tackle Tony Ugoh had his best game yet yesterday. The Colts have tweaked their offense to help him out, that's called good coaching or at least smart thinking. Cripes.

For me, this is yet another reason/incident for why Andy Reid needs to stop getting the pass that he does. Enough. He won division titles when the NFC East was piss-poor and the Eagles won the division last year because the Cowboys and Giants folded down the stretch. Defensive coordinator Jim Johnson has been/is the bigger contributing factor to the success of the Philadelphia Eagles than Reid, the defense this year has put the team in position to win all four games despite losing integral starters Lito Sheppard and Brian Dawkins.

We don't even need to mention the questionable decision-making he's made as the de facto general manager (thanks again for drafting Fred Ex over Reggie Wayne).

He needs to let his OC call the plays. Thats been his Achilles heel throughout his career. He cannot coordinate an offense.

As a HC, I think he does a good job. He keeps his team motivated and ready to play every week, his teams don't quit on him, his success speaks for itself. He does outcoach most of his opponents.

And as a GM, I think he's been brilliant. He's one of the best drafting HC's in the league by far. He's an amazing GM and evaluator of talent. His GM'ing is the reason why the Eagles are consistantly successfuly every year.

Damix
10-01-2007, 12:54 PM
BBD just likes him because he drafts so many lineman =D

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 12:59 PM
BBD just likes him because he drafts so many lineman =D

haha, that is true :)

Alot of my personal beliefs when it comes to drafting coincides with Reid's drafting history. I don't believe in drafting WRs early, I love drafting linemen early.

Build your team with early picks on defense (particularly front 7) and linemen on offense. WRs, RBs, and TEs can be had after round 1.

DMWSackMachine
10-01-2007, 01:46 PM
Well, I'm not *claiming* that he was the worst ever, but I am stating its the worst I've seen, even though I have seen some truly despicable, horrid, and insufferable O-line play over the last 10 years as a fan of the Cowboys.

Now, I don't want to go overboard with this, but Justice was just awful, awful, awful. It looked like he lost his confidence early on, and he was just terrified out there from that point on. He was tentative, slow, and timid in his technique, and looked like he was in fear of getting hit. He either stayed in his stance and waited for Osi to get into him, or got caught leaning and out of balance.

It was horrific. I don't want to take away from Osi, because he was playing well, but he was not doing anything that special. He was literally running right into Justice and just going through him. Sure, he only had the 4 sacks in man-to-man with WJ, but he probably had, literally, 12-15 QB hurries against him. You have to realize that for every time he got there, McNabb made a play to get the ball out and just barely avoid a sack twice.

I wanted Justice for us on draft day, too. But after that performance, I can't see how he would be a viable player at any point in the future. I haven't seen much of him, though I have heard a comment here and there about him playing in relief at RT a few times. After last night, though.....ugh.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 01:51 PM
Well, I'm not *claiming* that he was the worst ever, but I am stating its the worst I've seen, even though I have seen some truly despicable, horrid, and insufferable O-line play over the last 10 years as a fan of the Cowboys.

Now, I don't want to go overboard with this, but Justice was just awful, awful, awful. It looked like he lost his confidence early on, and he was just terrified out there from that point on. He was tentative, slow, and timid in his technique, and looked like he was in fear of getting hit. He either stayed in his stance and waited for Osi to get into him, or got caught leaning and out of balance.

It was horrific. I don't want to take away from Osi, because he was playing well, but he was not doing anything that special. He was literally running right into Justice and just going through him. Sure, he only had the 4 sacks in man-to-man with WJ, but he probably had, literally, 12-15 QB hurries against him. You have to realize that for every time he got there, McNabb made a play to get the ball out and just barely avoid a sack twice.

I wanted Justice for us on draft day, too. But after that performance, I can't see how he would be a viable player at any point in the future. I haven't seen much of him, though I have heard a comment here and there about him playing in relief at RT a few times. After last night, though.....ugh.

He'll pick it up. I think last night was just one of those days. Ive seen him play alot in PS and he was owning guys. Familiarity breeds parity, and with more practice against the Giants he'll get better.

I guess its safe to say that he's more raw than we initially anticipated. But like I said, Im a little stumped at how he can play like that, when Ive seen nothing but excellence out of him in the past 2 preseasons, even with the starting unit going against starting DEs. Worst case scenario he can be a viable RT replacement for Runyan for the long term.

Komp
10-01-2007, 02:00 PM
And Reid did NOTHING to counter this. No screen passes, no max protect, nothing. Horrible job by Reid.

That is exactly what I was thinking last night. There were no screens, no quick routes...it was like the Eagles were running the Bill Walsh Breakfast Club offense last night. Terrible playcalling...

remix 6
10-01-2007, 02:03 PM
its unfair to put a young man with little experience against a top pass rusher. its just too much for him but yeah....the #s looked very bad as did the actual play

Jonny
10-01-2007, 02:11 PM
Give some credit to Strahan. He's completely owned Runyan throughout the years, which is why he was getting help all night and not Justice.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2007, 02:13 PM
Give some credit to Strahan. He's completely owned Runyan throughout the years, which is why he was getting help all night and not Justice.

That is also true, something we failed to point out before. Strahan got the double all night. If Strahan had the one on one, he'd probably have 4 sacks last night, instead of Osi having 6.

Shiver
10-01-2007, 02:18 PM
I think a lot of things contributed to the sacks other than just Winston Justice:

1. The Eagles sorely missed Brian Westbrook. The threat of him on draw plays and screens slows down a pass rush.

2. Donovan McNabb has clearly lost his mobility, through age and injury. Several of those sacks he tried to get away and couldn't. I remember seeing that a lot with Carson Palmer and Daunte Culpepper last year.

Addict
10-01-2007, 02:21 PM
I think a lot of things contributed to the sacks other than just Winston Justice:

1. The Eagles sorely missed Brian Westbrook. The threat of him on draw plays and screens slows down a pass rush.

2. Donovan McNabb has clearly lost his mobility, through age and injury. Several of those sacks he tried to get away and couldn't. I remember seeing that a lot with Carson Palmer and Daunte Culpepper last year.

yea I know but come on Osi just overpowered him, I don't care if he's not as mobile as he used to be Winston didn't play well at all.

Go_Eagles77
10-01-2007, 02:34 PM
That was just flat-out embarrassing. No excuses for Justice or the coaches. He was a potential top-ten pick, and he looked like a UDFA. A low-end one at that.

LonghornsLegend
10-01-2007, 02:42 PM
Is it just me, or is daunte culpepper visibly faster and more agile then mcnabb this year?

Nitschke-Hawk
10-01-2007, 03:04 PM
It was pretty amazing what Osi did. I'd like him to be more consistent though.

619
10-01-2007, 03:14 PM
umenyiora beat justice in every way possible and its kinda sad cuz hes a very athletic tackle that should have been able to handle his speed

Number 10
10-01-2007, 03:22 PM
umenyiora beat justice in every way possible and its kinda sad cuz hes a very athletic tackle that should have been able to handle his speed

He split 2 double teams for sacks and rushed up the middle for another.

Not to mention his 4 pressures and 1 knockdown....like Madden said..."I don't think I have seen that kind of performance by a DE, ever".

Geo
10-01-2007, 04:59 PM
More like Umenyiora was successful with just about every move a defensive end has at his disposal.

Hopefully we won't get back to overrating Umenyiora because of one game against the worst left tackle performance we've seen in years.

P-L
10-01-2007, 05:01 PM
That was probably the worse I've seen. I had to change the channel because watching Justice play was so painful.

D-Unit
10-01-2007, 05:05 PM
Imagine, I was disappointed when Dallas passed on Justice to draft Bobby Carpenter.

Hooray for Bill Parcells!

Vikes99ej
10-01-2007, 05:46 PM
Was Tra Thomas injured or what?

ks_perfection
10-01-2007, 06:19 PM
Anyone know if he's starting again on Sunday?

NIN1984
10-01-2007, 06:25 PM
Yeah that was painful, I'm a Raiders fan so I saw some real bad O-line play last season. But what happened last night was just a flat out massacre.

Go_Eagles77
10-01-2007, 06:25 PM
We have a bye this week (thank god) and hopefully Thomas can be back in 2 weeks. Hopefully along with Brian Westbrook, Brian Dawkins, Lito Sheppard, and LJ Smith. :D

etk
10-01-2007, 09:04 PM
1) I'm 175 lbs and I personally guarantee I could have done a better job in pass protection that night. If you can't handle a bullrush from a speed rusher at least chop him off. Justice is pathetic.

2) Once again, I personally guarantee at least 3 sacks if I line up opposite Winston Justice. Osi didn't even do anything particularly special. He's a man and Justice is a boy, it's that simple.

LSUALUM99
10-01-2007, 09:37 PM
Clearly the worst performance I've seen from any LT in any one game. I thought Ogden's game against Freeny last year was bad, but this was much worse in comparison. It looked like Justice just gave up after the first 3 or so sacks. That's the worst thing a player can do in my opinion. His teamates will probably never look at him the same if they feel he's a guy that folds under pressure.

Scotty D
10-01-2007, 09:46 PM
1) I'm 175 lbs and I personally guarantee I could have done a better job in pass protection that night. If you can't handle a bullrush from a speed rusher at least chop him off. Justice is pathetic.

2) Once again, I personally guarantee at least 3 sacks if I line up opposite Winston Justice. Osi didn't even do anything particularly special. He's a man and Justice is a boy, it's that simple.

You would have died out there.

ks_perfection
10-01-2007, 09:47 PM
Reid should have taken him out, thats why you have backups. Even Reid would have done better, since he didn't appear to be doing anythign on the sideline it wouldn't be a problem.

Caddy
10-01-2007, 09:53 PM
Imagine, I was disappointed when Dallas passed on Justice to draft Bobby Carpenter.

Hooray for Bill Parcells!

I felt the same, except replace Bobby Carpenter with Davin Joseph. Boy am I glad we chose Joseph now.

XxXdragonXxX
10-01-2007, 09:58 PM
Whoever was responsible for blocking Derrick Thomas when he sacked Dave Krieg 7 times in 1 game, and had him in his arms for the 8th sack when Krieg threw the game winning TD pass. I was only 5 at the time so I didn't see it, but I imagine it was worse than Winston's performance.

LSUALUM99
10-01-2007, 10:09 PM
1) I'm 175 lbs and I personally guarantee I could have done a better job in pass protection that night. If you can't handle a bullrush from a speed rusher at least chop him off. Justice is pathetic.

2) Once again, I personally guarantee at least 3 sacks if I line up opposite Winston Justice. Osi didn't even do anything particularly special. He's a man and Justice is a boy, it's that simple.


Reminds me of all the commericals that say "You wouldn't make it in pro-football". Statements like this are truly rediculous.

I guarantee you'd have given up a sack on every single pass play in the game.

619
10-01-2007, 10:15 PM
1) I'm 175 lbs and I personally guarantee I could have done a better job in pass protection that night. If you can't handle a bullrush from a speed rusher at least chop him off. Justice is pathetic.

2) Once again, I personally guarantee at least 3 sacks if I line up opposite Winston Justice. Osi didn't even do anything particularly special. He's a man and Justice is a boy, it's that simple.

BOLD statement but u gotta be serious now..maybe u should have gone on that show pros vs joes or something if its still on to see how tough it really is

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-01-2007, 10:19 PM
I have never allowed a sack in my three years of football, I would make Osi my *****.



For one play, where I would cut him, and then promptly leave the field.

slightlyaraiderfan
10-02-2007, 01:36 AM
1) I'm 175 lbs and I personally guarantee I could have done a better job in pass protection that night. If you can't handle a bullrush from a speed rusher at least chop him off. Justice is pathetic.

2) Once again, I personally guarantee at least 3 sacks if I line up opposite Winston Justice. Osi didn't even do anything particularly special. He's a man and Justice is a boy, it's that simple.
haha...

OVL>NFL, right? :P

no love
10-02-2007, 01:45 AM
Wow, this just seemed like a case of a young player just losing complete confidence in what he was doing. It was like he lost so much confidence in his ability to move his feet that he would forget to stay low and then would lose all leverage.

Just a veteran welcoming a young guy to the NFL while the head coach stood by and watched as his players confidence was destroyed.

Damix
10-02-2007, 09:40 AM
Clearly the worst performance I've seen from any LT in any one game. I thought Ogden's game against Freeny last year was bad, but this was much worse in comparison. It looked like Justice just gave up after the first 3 or so sacks. That's the worst thing a player can do in my opinion. His teamates will probably never look at him the same if they feel he's a guy that folds under pressure.

His teammates can't really say **** to him because they gave up 8 of the 12 sacks

Twiddler
10-02-2007, 09:52 AM
1) I'm 175 lbs and I personally guarantee I could have done a better job in pass protection that night. If you can't handle a bullrush from a speed rusher at least chop him off. Justice is pathetic.

2) Once again, I personally guarantee at least 3 sacks if I line up opposite Winston Justice. Osi didn't even do anything particularly special. He's a man and Justice is a boy, it's that simple.

We would have to have your dad keep stats of you though. Just to make sure you are as good as you say you are...

Jughead10
10-02-2007, 09:57 AM
He split 2 double teams for sacks and rushed up the middle for another.

Not to mention his 4 pressures and 1 knockdown....like Madden said..."I don't think I have seen that kind of performance by a DE, ever".

I think people are missing this point, so I'm going to repeat it. Osi didn't beat Justice for all 6 sacks. I think only 3 and most of those were late in the game. I blame Reid and McNabb. Giants did a lot of things to assure our ends were blocked man up. Reid had to do something else to counter the end pressure. Either McNabb getting rid of the ball faster or Reid running more intermediate to shorter routes. Our coverage was tight downfield all game. Lets not forget on third and long we have Tuck, Kiwi, Strahan, and Osi coming at you. If Osi is double teamed with a TE, RB, etc, someone else is going to get pressure. Thus 3 sacks by Kiwi and 2 by Tuck. It was just an overall domination. I'd expect more of this next week as well. Because although it was preseason, we did the same thing to the Jets for the 3 quarters already this year. Obviously not 12 sacks again, but our D-line should dominate the Jets O-line.

portermvp84
10-02-2007, 10:14 AM
I think Hellen Keller could of done a better job at blocking Osi lol jk.

bigbluedefense
10-02-2007, 06:43 PM
Did anyone see Monday Night Countdown when Parcells broke down the protection?

He pointed out how 3 guys were blocking 2 (Osi and Tuck) most of the game, but he didn't point out something alot of us have overlooked.

And thats Tuck's impact on our pass rush. When we line up Tuck as UT in the nickel, he's flat out dominating. If you frequent the Giants board you'll see how we rave about him. He's our most consistent pass rusher.

Now, what made us so tough to block had alot to do with Tuck. They had 3 guys, but the Guard had a hard time sliding to help Osi because Tuck at UT kept demanding a double team. And at the end of the day, you gotta prevent the inside from collapsing before the outside. Now when they did seal the outside and put 2 on Osi, Tuck came free and got to McNabb (2 sacks). When Tuck exploded the middle, they had only one guy on Osi and he got to McNabb (6 sacks).

And thats just one side. One thing everyone's forgetting is how Kiwi and Strahan did. Strahan continued his annual pillaging of Jon Runyan's anus. And they had to put Runyan and the RB on him (still got 1 sack). That left Kiwi one on one against Shaun Andrews when he lined up as DT (3 sacks). So when you put that all together, plus the fact that we blitzed like hell, plus all the stunts we did, there was almost nothing they could do other than max protect. (from a protection standpoint).

Let's not forget either, Osi continually split the double team all night. So even when they did put 2 guys on him, he still got there. Our dline as a whole, with those 4 up front is damn near impossible to block on 3rd and long.

And let's give credit where credit is due. Osi isn't the first, and will not be the last guy in the NFL to go against a backup LT in this league. He produced. Can't kill him for it. Heck, anyone who went against Bob Whitfield last year against us shouldve got 10 sacks by those premises.

Here's my worry as a Giants fan. First off, Spags has made a great adjustment with his fronts. BUT, it only works against the traditional offense. Run on 1st, run/throw on 2nd, throw on 3rd. When we're in our 4-3 front with Kiwi as rushbacker however, we're still vulnerable against the pass. And this is what Im worried about. I expect offenses to adjust and start throwing more often against us on 1st down, to catch us in our vulnerable 4-3 front.

I also expect alot of cutback runs to catch Kiwi out of his gap. Those 2 things worry me going forward. But only time will tell what happens. This defense is far from perfect, and we still have a lot of holes in the back 7. But good pressure from the front 4 can help mask some of it. Now we're finally seeing a healthy Osi, Strahan seems like he's back in football shape, and Tuck is staying healthy. So we'll see, but im still very cautious.

Props to whoever read all this, lol.

etk
10-02-2007, 08:26 PM
I felt the same, except replace Bobby Carpenter with Davin Joseph. Boy am I glad we chose Joseph now.

You wanted Winston Justice? There goes the credibility of another Bucs poster concerning the draft...

We would have to have your dad keep stats of you though. Just to make sure you are as good as you say you are...

Actually my dad is the announcer. It would be anarchy if he was the statistician.
Thanks for returning the favor, though.

To the other 5+ people who quoted me, grab a Diet Pepsi, experience something youthful, stop being so serious and learn how to detect a joke. Also look up "overemphasis" in the dictionary.

619
10-02-2007, 08:29 PM
lol wasnt winston justice at one time projected to go in the top 10 of the draft

etk
10-02-2007, 08:35 PM
lol wasnt winston justice at one time projected to go in the top 10 of the draft

Yes, on this site specifically.

rainbeaukid2
10-02-2007, 08:46 PM
2 words: Kwame Harris

doingthisinsteadofwork
10-02-2007, 09:57 PM
Im an Oakland fan and Id have to say that was hard to watch.

DMWSackMachine
10-03-2007, 02:41 PM
I wish the Giants posters would quit trying to come in here and play-down the horrid pass blocking from Justice as a non-factor--or at least a smaller-than-reality factor--in that all-time worst performance.

The Giants have a TOTAL of 4 sacks in their other 3 games this season. Yes, they have a lot of quality pass rushers. Yes, they were playing well, and yes, BBD, Tuck looks pretty darn good as an inside pass rusher. SURE. But the bottom line is that you don't get 12 sacks in a game, and 6 from one guys, without completely terrible pass blocking that has no place in an NFL game. I don't care if you line up Lawrence Taylor and Deacon Jones on the outside, with Reggie and Bruce playing inside, and give them a 40 point lead against a Mike Martz offense that is passing on every down to catch up, they won't get 12 sacks in a game if the O-line they are playing is average or better, and the QB is getting the ball out.

They played a pretty good game all-around, and sure there were plenty of shoddy performances across the board from the other Philly linemen, but the bottom line is that when you are defending a guy's performance with the words "HE ONLY GAVE UP FOUR OF THOSE SACKS, so he wasn't that bad", then maybe you need to re-evaluate your opinion.

bigbluedefense
10-03-2007, 02:52 PM
I wish the Giants posters would quit trying to come in here and play-down the horrid pass blocking from Justice as a non-factor--or at least a smaller-than-reality factor--in that all-time worst performance.

The Giants have a TOTAL of 4 sacks in their other 3 games this season. Yes, they have a lot of quality pass rushers. Yes, they were playing well, and yes, BBD, Tuck looks pretty darn good as an inside pass rusher. SURE. But the bottom line is that you don't get 12 sacks in a game, and 6 from one guys, without completely terrible pass blocking that has no place in an NFL game. I don't care if you line up Lawrence Taylor and Deacon Jones on the outside, with Reggie and Bruce playing inside, and give them a 40 point lead against a Mike Martz offense that is passing on every down to catch up, they won't get 12 sacks in a game if the O-line they are playing is average or better, and the QB is getting the ball out.

They played a pretty good game all-around, and sure there were plenty of shoddy performances across the board from the other Philly linemen, but the bottom line is that when you are defending a guy's performance with the words "HE ONLY GAVE UP FOUR OF THOSE SACKS, so he wasn't that bad", then maybe you need to re-evaluate your opinion.

No one is saying that the performance was good by the Philly oline. In fact, i think we've all been very critical of it. But to say that they only got those sacks because of poor performance by Philly is something I disagree with. Its not like our guys just got those sacks because Philly played horribly. Our guys played pretty well too, to shun their accomplishment is not fair either. Let's not forget, Philly had 8 sacks against the Giants last year. I wouldn't pencil that performance in as one of the worst in NFL history. It was bad sure, but come on. Its not just the protection, we got guys who can rush the passer. Last week was a combination of both. Im not gonna say that those numbers aren't "inflated", but to shun them completely is not right either.

Like I said, Osi isn't the first, and won't be the last DE to go against a backup LT. I could only imagine what he'd do if he went against Art Shell's pass protection last year. So let's not totally shun his accomplishment because he went against shoddy protection. I know youre not doing that, but its clear that youre also trying to downplay what he did as well. 6 sacks is 6 sacks, regardless of the circumstances.

Let's be honest, I don't think you'd feel the same way if DeMarcus Ware was the one who got those 6 sacks. ;) And come on, the way my defense has been performing, we'll take what we can get.

Number 10
10-03-2007, 02:52 PM
DMW-

There is no way around it. The Giants defensive line has the most dominant defensive performance as a unit so far this season. The Eagles line has highly been regarded as one of the best in the league lately, let's not forget the other 4 guys are pretty good players.

You can take way 4 of those sacks by Osi (which isn't entirely fair but who cares) and the line still walks out of the game with eight sacks. Giants deserve all the credit in the world for what they did Sunday night, can't think of many teams that could even potentially do what they did.

DMWSackMachine
10-03-2007, 05:27 PM
Lol, I can see that you guys are desperately holding onto whatever you can to provide you some hope for the season, and that is understandable. BBD, btw, I specifically gave your team its kudos, so don't act like I didn't. I said it before, I'll say it again, they were playing well. They have a nice arsenal of pass rushers, probably the deepest and most diverse set of get-after-the-QB guys on one team in the league. Fine. All that said, you still have 12 sacks against the Eagles and 4 sacks--in 3 times as many games--against everyone else. Let's keep it real.

But that's not even my main point at all.

Listen, I know for sure BBD, (and I'm almost certain with you too, N10) that I have heard you assert the absolutely critical and undeniable importance of the Left Tackle on the performance of an OL unit as a whole. I've heard you eloquently and passionately defend the universal and ground-shaking impact that the position makes upon what is--in your mind--the most important unit on a team. Now you want to turn around and say that having a scared and shaking-in-his-boots LT who literally didn't block anyone all night long is not going to take a toll on the rest of the line? Especially a line that has played well all season up to this game, but suddenly looks incompetent and out of synch? Dude, you know how biased and self-serving that sounds.

Justice may have only given up 4 sacks directly, but his play clearly had a ripple effect on the O-line. Hell, Herremans looked nearly as bad as he did, messing up multiple switches on stunts that are routine, and not getting out to help Justice on several 3-on-2 plays.

An all-time performance can never happen without all factors coming into play. Good/great play by one party, horrible play by the opponent, luck, circumstance....they all come into factor whenever you put up a number like 12 sacks in one game. So don't think I'm saying that the Giants didn't play their parts, but it's clear as the day is long that the Eagles' O-line as a whole was operating at near-all-time-worst levels. Add in the fact that the LT was playing a new position in his first NFL start and was obviously to the naked eye, playing like ****, and you have a no-brainer case for what everyone is saying.....everyone, that is, except a couple of forlorn Giants fans looking for something to keep their hopes up.

I can't say that I blame you, but I think if you took a step back and took stock of things objectively, that you would probably agree. That is, after all, what makes you BBD.

bigbluedefense
10-03-2007, 05:37 PM
Ok, thats fair enough.

But I never said that Justice didn't have a negative effect on the play of the entire oline. I was breaking it down from a defensive perspective, and how the Giants players attacked the pass protection. But I will readily admit that the Philly line did not play well at all. Theres no question about it.

My initial post was more directed at Justin Tuck. I just wanted to point out how much Tuck has impacted our rush on 3rd down. And its the God honest truth, he really has had a huge impact. He's so tough to block when he lines up inside, and its not just from one game. Look at all 4 of our games so far, and look at the tape. Including PS if you want. Tuck has been an unblockable force at UT in our nickel package all season. That was the main initial point of that post.

ny10804
10-03-2007, 10:41 PM
Watching Aaron Kampman abuse Ryan Cook last year was pretty bad (3 sacks, 6 solo tackles).

Jughead10
10-04-2007, 08:31 AM
We had Bob Whitfield at LT for half a season last year, and I believe only gave up a little more than double the sacks on the season that our defense had last Sunday. The same Bob Whitfield who couldn't move at all and is now no longer in the league. I'm sure he faced some pretty good pass rushers, including the likes of Demarcus Ware, Trent Cole, etc, and none of them managed to get 6 sacks or even close to that. Although that might be because Bob was too busy holding and getting personal fouls called on him. Either way, like it was said the Giants probably have the best assembled group of pass rushers. Of course I'm not expecting 12 sacks ever again, but third and longs will be terrible terrible mismatches for opposing teams all season long. And lets not forget that Osi was hurt and Strahan was getting into shape those first three games of the season. Not to mention that Kiwinuka wasn't used nearly as much on the line those games as well. Last week was the first week where all those guys were 100%. I'd expect to see dominance again this weekend against the Jets when it comes to our D-line matching up against their O-line.

I'm also looking foward to our upcoming schedule heading into the bye. Jets, San Fran, Atlanta, and Miami. We could realistically be 5-3 with two weeks to prepare for the Cowboys at home. Scheduling is a huge factor in the NFL. Last year it hurt us, this year we could perhaps benefit from it.

DMWSackMachine
10-04-2007, 11:27 AM
Well, as long as the other team trots out 5 lineman, no team is going to get 12 sacks unless they have a good arsenal of pass rushers.

I've been waiting for Tuck to emerge for seemingly forever. I liked him a lot coming out, but he's never been able to crack that monster lineup. Maybe he has found a home in the nickel.

Also, I think Coughlin should be drawn and quartered for how he has handled Kiwanuka. I can see him playing a little bit of LB, but only if you are rushing him on a regular basis, at least 40% of the time. It looks like he's starting to figure it out, so that should be good. Kiwi might end up being the steal of that draft if the coaches don't **** it up first.

Jughead10
10-04-2007, 11:37 AM
Also, I think Coughlin should be drawn and quartered for how he has handled Kiwanuka. I can see him playing a little bit of LB, but only if you are rushing him on a regular basis, at least 40% of the time. It looks like he's starting to figure it out, so that should be good. Kiwi might end up being the steal of that draft if the coaches don't **** it up first.

Yet at the time of that draft people thought Kiwi might be the most overrated player. Mainly because he played injured most of his senior season because he took a dirty cut block to knee against Virginia.

bigbluedefense
10-04-2007, 11:52 AM
Well, as long as the other team trots out 5 lineman, no team is going to get 12 sacks unless they have a good arsenal of pass rushers.

I've been waiting for Tuck to emerge for seemingly forever. I liked him a lot coming out, but he's never been able to crack that monster lineup. Maybe he has found a home in the nickel.

Also, I think Coughlin should be drawn and quartered for how he has handled Kiwanuka. I can see him playing a little bit of LB, but only if you are rushing him on a regular basis, at least 40% of the time. It looks like he's starting to figure it out, so that should be good. Kiwi might end up being the steal of that draft if the coaches don't **** it up first.

Tuck in all likelihood will be Strahan's heir. He fits the LE spot better than Kiwi. We use him in the nickel now because of Strahan's tenior, but many of us felt that while Strahan was getting back in football shape, Tuck shouldve started over him.

Im guessing when Strahan retires, Tuck will play LE, Kiwi his hybrid role, and in the nickel, Kiwi moves to LE and Tuck UT. Right now we have both Kiwi and Tuck as UTs in our nickel. Im guessing the long term UT next to Tuck after Strahan retires will be Alford. Thats just a guess.

Kiwi's role on this team is very dependent on how he does as a LB. He's clearly a better DE than LB, but if he can make this hybrid role work, that gives the Giants team defense more leverage because now they can use Tuck alot more than they do now. It remains to be seen how Kiwi does. He has 5 sacks so far, and he's slowly improving as a LB. They finally started rushing him more. Against Dallas and GB, they barely rushed him, I don't know why, but eh. I guess Spags wanted to catch em off guard by blitzing Mitchell instead. I definately agree that Kiwi can only work at SAM if we rush him 40% of the time. My worries as a Giants fan is that means that Pierce is running down the seam with the TE, or we have James Butler against the TE. Either way, the TE is open all day. On 1st and 2nd down that is.

Ward
10-04-2007, 12:15 PM
Closest thing I've ever seen is just about every game Kwame Harris played at RT.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8117850700698798205&q=Kwame+Harris&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

My favorite moment is when he goes to high five Vernon Davis and VD leaves him hanging. Great video, very funny.

Ward
10-04-2007, 12:20 PM
Was Tra Thomas injured or what?

Please...

HIS NAME IS WILLIAM

DMWSackMachine
10-04-2007, 01:55 PM
I still don't see how they are going to make it work with Kiwi. He is so stiff and slow in space that he is a HUGE liability in pass coverage. Watching Witten abuse him in Week 1 told you all you need to know. In order to make up for him, you're going to have to play a lot of Cover 3, or even Cover 1, with Wilson matched up against the TE. Needless to say, that will expose the deep sides of your D, which is already an area of concern.

I see how having him there could provide some nice matchups in the pass rush, and you're just trying to get him on the field in order to have as many of your best players on the field as possible, but is it worth it? To be honest, if I was the Giants I would be shopping Kiwi around to see if I could get a top prospect or draft pick in return. I'm sure his value is really high around the league, as young pass rushers like him aren't just lying around on the scrap pile.

It wouldn't work for us, but if you could do a swap of him for Bobby Carpenter, that would do wonders for your D. It would be hard to give up a quality young guy of his caliber, though.

bored of education
10-04-2007, 02:13 PM
Did GRF dress in Winston Justice's uni?

Number 10
10-04-2007, 02:16 PM
I still don't see how they are going to make it work with Kiwi. He is so stiff and slow in space that he is a HUGE liability in pass coverage. Watching Witten abuse him in Week 1 told you all you need to know. In order to make up for him, you're going to have to play a lot of Cover 3, or even Cover 1, with Wilson matched up against the TE. Needless to say, that will expose the deep sides of your D, which is already an area of concern.

I see how having him there could provide some nice matchups in the pass rush, and you're just trying to get him on the field in order to have as many of your best players on the field as possible, but is it worth it? To be honest, if I was the Giants I would be shopping Kiwi around to see if I could get a top prospect or draft pick in return. I'm sure his value is really high around the league, as young pass rushers like him aren't just lying around on the scrap pile.

It wouldn't work for us, but if you could do a swap of him for Bobby Carpenter, that would do wonders for your D. It would be hard to give up a quality young guy of his caliber, though.

I disagree for the most part.

I think you need AT LEAST 3 very good pass rushers on your teams at all times in order to potentially have a top tier defense in this scheme that we play. Strahan is no longer a very good pass rusher, he's good but he is now a level below the other three. I think this is his last year if not his second to last year, thus keeping Kiwanuka is a must in most cases.

We've played 4 games and got torched but the two best teams in the NFC on defense, but then came out with arguably the most dominant performance over a 4 quarter and 2 quarter time period against mid-level NFC teams. So it's hard to tell where this defense is really at and considering we're just a fourth into the season, we obviously will have a lot of time to see how Kiwanuka can progress at SAM.

No disrespect to the Cowboys but I would in no way trade Kiwi for Carpenter, not just because we're in the same division. I loved Carpenter coming out but Kiwanuka is clearly a better player than him. I understand our need for a more natural LB but I'll take my chances with Kiwi before I give him up for a player that has been merely average because the ceiling's of both players are far too different.

Would I trade Kiwanuka for a top 20 pick this year if Strahan was returning? Possibly but I'd have to see what our offseason panned out and who was available with that pick. It would have to be a sweet deal though because Kiwanuka has way too much potential to watch him progress greatly over the first 2 years only to see him be shipped off.

bigbluedefense
10-04-2007, 09:48 PM
I still don't see how they are going to make it work with Kiwi. He is so stiff and slow in space that he is a HUGE liability in pass coverage. Watching Witten abuse him in Week 1 told you all you need to know. In order to make up for him, you're going to have to play a lot of Cover 3, or even Cover 1, with Wilson matched up against the TE. Needless to say, that will expose the deep sides of your D, which is already an area of concern.

I see how having him there could provide some nice matchups in the pass rush, and you're just trying to get him on the field in order to have as many of your best players on the field as possible, but is it worth it? To be honest, if I was the Giants I would be shopping Kiwi around to see if I could get a top prospect or draft pick in return. I'm sure his value is really high around the league, as young pass rushers like him aren't just lying around on the scrap pile.

It wouldn't work for us, but if you could do a swap of him for Bobby Carpenter, that would do wonders for your D. It would be hard to give up a quality young guy of his caliber, though.

Thats tough. Its hard trading away a talent like Kiwi. I agree that he's very stiff out there. The thing is, its not really an easy transition, especially in the 4-3, so I want to see him in week 16 and monitor his growth before I write off the experiment.

Worst case scenario is we move him back to DE, and try to use a rotation between him and Tuck. And move Tuck inside on the nickel.

Kiwi would be a great 3-4 rushbacker.