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Shiver
10-02-2007, 10:54 PM
Sorry for the slight delay, I was at someone's house Monday night.


Marvin Lewis vs. Chad Johnson

It’s come down to this, one will win, and the other will be removed. Things have finally come to a head. Chad Johnson looked like a selfish baby because he couldn’t score on Monday night. He was overtly concerned about himself. He sulked when he nearly scored, simply because he couldn’t revel in some inane dance routine he had planned. He made sure to rant and make sure his displeasure known to Carson Palmer. He made it very clear that his personal antics were a higher priority than beating the Patriots was. He did the same thing when he complained and fought his coaches in the locker room during the half time in the playoff game against the Steelers. While not mentioned directly Marvin Lewis called the team “selfish,” among other things, and all of that was obviously a shot at Chad Johnson. He tried to rein him in last year and that didn’t work. As long as a ‘me first,’ distraction like Chad Johnson exists Marvin Lewis will never truly be in control and will never be able to establish discipline. If the Bengals keep losing it’s going to be one or the other, Lewis or Chad Johnson, and I think the money making and marketing side of things will win out. What makes this situation worse is the fact that TJ Houshmandzadeh is every thing that Chad Johnson is not. Consistent, tough, team oriented, more concerned about the W-L column rather than his own personal glory.

Whisenhunt’s Revenge

There was a lot to talk about in this game in my estimation, so without further ado:

Once again Matt Leinart looked poor while Kurt Warner out-performed him. This guy needs to stop reading the press clippings and actually work to become the “franchise” QB he was hyped to be, unless he is unable to play at the NFL level in the first place. Either way a top-10 pick, supposedly up and coming young QB, shouldn’t be rotating with a past his prime veteran. Especially considering the receivers he has at his possession. I think it’s safe to say that Jay Cutler and Vince Young are better than he is, just like I thought coming out of college.

Two breakout players that really emerged in this game: Santonio Holmes and Darnell Dockett. First I’ll start out talking about Holmes. Hines Ward has been in a steady decline for the past four years and I think Holmes is set to be the primary receiver. He was very deadly as a rookie and looks even better this year, an 1,100 yard season would not be a surprise from Holmes. Dockett has been terrific for a while, now his stats are actually elite. Having 5.5 sacks in four games is very impressive, let alone from a interior D-Lineman. He, along with Adrian Wilson, is the main reason that the Cardinals defense has been much more formidable.

I'm mad I didn't predict the upset here. This really had all the makings. Old coaches who knew the favorites' tendencies and personnel in and out. A home team, even if an underdog, always have a puncher's chance. A little luck also helped with both Troy Polamalu and Casey Hampton getting hurt mid-game.


Decline of the Chargers Redux

My prediction that the Chargers would get back on track against Kansas City at home blew up in my face. I feel a little reassured since I am pretty sure the majority of people everywhere thought the same thing. LaDainian Tomlinson nearly reached my prediction of 150 and a touchdown, but Philip Rivers stunk up the joint. In a year where Ben Roethlisberger steps up as a QB and Eli Manning has somewhat become more consistent, Rivers has regressed as a starter. The majority of his passes floated far too long, he missed open receivers, and his entire timing was off. The culmination of his struggles came when he choked under pressure and held on to the ball rather than dumping it off to a wide open Tomlinson in the flat. While the Chargers offense is in a state of flux, the defense looks terrible right now. The secondary has been consistently roasted. I can see giving up a lot to Tom Brady and Randy Moss, but seriously, Damon Huard and Dwayne Bowe? AJ Smith needs to get fired and the sooner the better. His horrible decisions have sunk a seemingly Super Bowl caliber franchise. Firing Marty due to a feud, hiring Norv Turner, missing on all of his draft choices that he’s invested in that maligned secondary.

Mangini Needs to Pull the Trigger

The Jets need to go with Kellen Clemens. Watching Chad Pennington struggle is painful to me. If Clemens is the future, and he apparently is, then give him an opportunity. It isn’t as if the Jets will make the playoffs either way. At least Clemens has upside. At this stage of his career, post-injury, Pennington is a below average starter who lacks any game breaking ability and his TD/INT ratio has been lousy ever since ’02. Right now Lavernaeus Coles is relegated to 7-8 yard pass plays with Pennington at the helm. Using Clemens would open up the play-book and utilize their stellar receiving duo.

The ’05 Draft Class Finally Has Signs of Life

Ronnie Brown has had his second consecutive 200 yard performance and finally looks like the guy that everyone thought he would be. I’m not sure what has held him back; he really has all the tools. He has a tremendous combination of size, speed and agility.

Braylon Edwards has finally broken free from his inconsistencies, injuries and case of the ‘dropsies.’ With the help of Derek Anderson, and an improved Browns’ O-Line, he’s become a force at WR. Maybe he’s broken the Michigan receiver curse?

Derrick Johnson has finally lived up to his hype coming out of UT. He has been the stalwart of a solid Chiefs defensive unit. He has racked up statistics and made his presence felt.

Travis Johnson is finally showing signs of life and with him stepping up, along with Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye, the Texans have a D-Line to be feared.

Marlin Jackson has been the key to the improved play of the Colts defense. Thus far they’ve been dynamite against the pass and he’s soon to be one of the best tackling corners in the entire NFL.

John Fox Must Go

The year 2003 was a long, long time ago. Yet John Fox is still living off the legacy he established back then. Ever since that time the Panthers have underachieved and performed inconsistently. Kris Jenkins’ rant practically called out Fox for not getting the team motivated and ready to play. Fox’s team has been humiliated twice, at home no less. Anything short of a post-season run he needs to go. He will be a standout DC somewhere in ’08.

Quick Hits

Trent Dilfer looked like Jared Lorenzen out there. Not only has Alex Smith not shown himself to be a capable NFL starter, but the 49ers have no one else to turn to.
Trent Edwards is the QB of the future in Buffalo. With another solid outing there is no way Losman gets his job back.
Bobby Petrino is officially an offensive guru if he can make Joey Harrington look like a very solid NFL starter.
Osi Umenyiora IS better and more productive than Julius Peppers. No, really, I’m serious.
Derek Anderson is making the Brady Quinn pick (and the lost 1st round pick) look like a poor decision.
Detroit is the most unconventional 3-1 team ever.
I am ready to call it: Tom Brady for MVP.
As for the rookie awards things are getting interesting. Last week I would have said Willis and Peterson are near locks. Now I could honestly say that if it ended today Dwayne Bowe and Amobi Okoye would at least be very close to those aforementioned two.

soybean
10-02-2007, 11:03 PM
Matt Leinart actually wasn't that bad and had a 45 yard pass to fitz. They put warner in to try to get a quick score ala the 2 minute drill. (which he did perfectly) then they went with leinart to slow it down, run/control the clock. Although he didn't have any touchdown passes, he lead them to their 3rd touchdown drive.

seems like brady quinn is gonna have to go the brett favre route in becoming a starting/franchise qb.

PoopSandwich
10-02-2007, 11:11 PM
" * Derek Anderson is making the Brady Quinn pick (and the lost 1st round pick) look like a poor decision."

You haven't seen the games, just the stats.

soybean
10-02-2007, 11:14 PM
" * Derek Anderson is making the Brady Quinn pick (and the lost 1st round pick) look like a poor decision."

You haven't seen the games, just the stats.

what was wrong with derek anderson?

JK17
10-02-2007, 11:15 PM
Shiver, good write up and I agree with a lot of it, but as for firing AJ Smith I just can't agree with, though I can certianly see the logic.

I really don't think you can fire AJ Smith. He made a mistake in bringing in Norv, but I'm not convinced Marty would have made this team a winner...they stunk in 2005 too, and blew many games they should have won, which isn't that different from this year. Marty also got a lot more invovled with some aspects of the team, that really weren't his field to be involved in, and AJ does handle much better then him, like salary cap issues, player evaluation, etc.

I also agree that he hasn't really hit on anything in the secondary yet, but he's hit all over the board on other positions. He's also only really drafted Cromartie and Weddle as his top flight draft choices (I think, I might be wrong on this depending on when Florence was drafted). I know thats not good, and I completely agree he sucks at finding players in the secondary, but he's also the guy who found Gates as an UDFA, Dielman as an UDFA, made a good trade that netted us Merriman, found Phillips, Castillo, Olshansky, Olivea, Vjax....not all those guys are playing great this year, but they're all great finds and serious assets to the team brought in under AJ. He's good at finding talent later on in the draft and its really helped the team move out (although we're heading right back) from the basement.

He really screwed up bringing in Norv, but I'm still not convinced Marty was any "less wrong" then AJ in their feud. And at the end of the day, Spanos sided with AJ over Marty, it wasn't just AJ's decision. That being said....he really ****** up with Norv and Cotrell, and I've lost some of my confidence in him...but not enough I want him gone. He has excessive pride and "ego", and he does need to know he screwed this one up....but he's still one of the best their is at building a roster.

Edit: Again, I know he's made some mistakes this year, and its resulted in us being absolutely terrible in a huge year for us...but with what he has done to build this team, I'll give him another shot any day before canning him.

49ersfan_87
10-02-2007, 11:17 PM
Trent Dilfer looked like Jared Lorenzen out there. Not only has Alex Smith not shown himself to be a capable NFL starter, but the 49ers have no one else to turn to.


While smith has dissapointed thus far, you just have to look at the offense surrounding him. His OL was absolutely terrible the first 3 games and they got him knocked out for a while because Eric Heitmann decided he was going to whiff on a block against Rocky Bernard. His receivers have been terrible too. His 3rd WR was so bad he was cut today (Taylor Jacobs). And don't forget the terrible coaching by Jim Hostler, OC of the 49ers.

I don't want to make it seem like Smith doesn't deserve blame. He has a poor pocket presence and can hold on to the ball too long. He also failed to take advantage of one of the best running games last year. But he is our best option. If things keep up, i see the 49ers doing what Buffalo did, and drafting a QB in the 3rd or so round to help push him and possibly overtake him.

PoopSandwich
10-02-2007, 11:25 PM
what was wrong with derek anderson?

Alot?

He throws into coverage all of the time... Most of his yards have come off of blown coverages (Good job by him for recognizing that.) But he is sooo incredibly inconsistent and loves throwing into coverage like I said.

He isn't playing bad, but believe me, Quinn starts the beginning of next year or some time this year, Derek isn't very good.

justin sandy
10-02-2007, 11:27 PM
Alot?

He throws into coverage all of the time... Most of his yards have come off of blown coverages (Good job by him for recognizing that.) But he is sooo incredibly inconsistent and loves throwing into coverage like I said.

He isn't playing bad, but believe me, Quinn starts the beginning of next year or some time this year, Derek isn't very good.

the browns blew it when they traded frye he was doing fine... they should have done what florida did, they won a national championship with two outstanding quarterbacks (tebow and leak)... there is no reason why the browns couldnt make the playoffs with a rotation of charlie frye and derek anderson, two stellar quarterbacks who will both be starters down the road

neko4
10-02-2007, 11:29 PM
Derek Anderson is making the Brady Quinn pick (and the lost 1st round pick) look like a poor decision.
Detroit is the most unconventional 3-1 team ever.
I am ready to call it: Tom Brady for MVP.They'll probbaly trade Anderson in a year and then Quinn will be like Rivers.
What the packers arent unconventional of a 4-0 team for ya?
Favre for MVP

neko4
10-02-2007, 11:30 PM
the browns blew it when they traded frye he was doing fine... they should have done what florida did, they won a national championship with two outstanding quarterbacks (tebow and leak)... there is no reason why the browns couldnt make the playoffs with a rotation of charlie frye and derek anderson, two stellar quarterbacks who will both be starters down the road
What?
i like frye and still think he'll be good, but he played terrible recently. And 2 QB's dont typically work in the NFL especially when neither is a good runer

justin sandy
10-02-2007, 11:31 PM
They'll probbaly trade Anderson in a year and then Quinn will be like Rivers.
What the packers arent unconventional of a 4-0 team for ya?
Favre for MVP

i actually agree with you completely... drew brees and derek anderson are actually very similar, they both were overlooked for many of the same reasons and what it really comes down to is getting it done on sunday, not how big you are or what your shoe size is.

JK17
10-02-2007, 11:31 PM
the browns blew it when they traded frye he was doing fine... they should have done what florida did, they won a national championship with two outstanding quarterbacks (tebow and leak)... there is no reason why the browns couldnt make the playoffs with a rotation of charlie frye and derek anderson, two stellar quarterbacks who will both be starters down the road

Except the NFL isn't college football...Frye and Anderson are not two "outstanding QBs" a this point in their career...and the style of play Tebow was used in last year would be incredibly ineffective in the NFL, unless of course, you think Frye or Anderson could attack the middle like Tebow was able to...in college....resulting in just two QBs throwing the ball, keeping the offenese out of rythm.

yodabear
10-02-2007, 11:32 PM
The Rams suck cuz they have a women as an owner. Football is a man sport, WOMEN STAY OUT! Although they allow the Seahawks to play it. Oh ****, No I didn't.

soybean
10-02-2007, 11:33 PM
the browns blew it when they traded frye he was doing fine... they should have done what florida did, they won a national championship with two outstanding quarterbacks (tebow and leak)... there is no reason why the browns couldnt make the playoffs with a rotation of charlie frye and derek anderson, two stellar quarterbacks who will both be starters down the road

horrible idea. leak and tebow did different things. you can't rotate qbs unless you're arizona because frye and anderson have similar attributes.

I did notice he threw into coverage a lot (from watching the highlights) but i figure we can let him pass since he only had 1 INT. I'm not a browns fan so I guess i can't really have an opinion but he was a game manager. He was able get the early lead then maintain it throughout the game. We can't really fault him for taking risks since most of those were rewarded. I want to see quinn play too but if Anderson continues to win games, and at his age, there's really no choice but to hang the franchise in his hands.

soybean
10-02-2007, 11:34 PM
The Rams suck cuz they have a women as an owner. Football is a man sport, WOMEN STAY OUT! Although they allow the Seahawks to play it. Oh ****, No I didn't.

Rams should get a qb. You'd be surprised how far a good qb can take a terrible team. (i know bulger was like a top 5 qb in the years past)

yodabear
10-02-2007, 11:38 PM
Rams should get a qb. You'd be surprised how far a good qb can take a terrible team. (i know bulger was like a top 5 qb in the years past)

We need Pace and Setterstrom back so whoever is playing QB has time to throw it or whoever is running it has somewhere to run. We could have Joe Montana and Emmit Smith back there right now and we would still be 0-4 and we'd still suck.

soybean
10-02-2007, 11:40 PM
hey, at least you guys will have the first pick next year.

JK17
10-02-2007, 11:43 PM
hey, at least you guys will have the first pick next year.

Actually a lot of people don't know this, but we've been gunning for it. Everyone's so critical of AJ Smith no one saw his master plan...hire Norv, tank the year, draft McFadden, trade LT, and set up a Super Bowl run for years! Genius!...

If we keep it up though....we'll have that pick.

soybean
10-02-2007, 11:47 PM
Actually a lot of people don't know this, but we've been gunning for it. Everyone's so critical of AJ Smith no one saw his master plan...hire Norv, tank the year, draft McFadden, trade LT, and set up a Super Bowl run for years! Genius!...

If we keep it up though....we'll have that pick.

maybe you guys can trade rivers for eli. now wouldn't that be funny.

yodabear
10-02-2007, 11:56 PM
Actually a lot of people don't know this, but we've been gunning for it. Everyone's so critical of AJ Smith no one saw his master plan...hire Norv, tank the year, draft McFadden, trade LT, and set up a Super Bowl run for years! Genius!...

If we keep it up though....we'll have that pick.

We'll trade u are entire draft (it will be like the 1st pick in every round), SJax, and we'll throw in pretty much our whole team for LT.

yodabear
10-02-2007, 11:58 PM
hey, at least you guys will have the first pick next year.

Most def sir soybean.

LonghornsLegend
10-03-2007, 12:29 AM
I very much agreed with what you said about Holmes, I had him pegged as a super sleeper this year, and aside from the fact that Ward has been declining, he's not the deep threat holmes is, the steelers are doing a more vertical attack this year, and big ben looks comfortable with him, I can envision that type of year for him as well...

gstock05
10-03-2007, 12:45 AM
Derek Anderson is doing good right now more as a product of the improved Browns offensive line, and the fact that Winslow and Edwards are studs.

He might be playing well (10x better than Frye), but he still lacks consistency, accuracy, and being a top NFL qb. Quinn IS better no doubt about that. He can potentially be a good quarterback, but he's not the star his stats show him to be.

LonghornsLegend
10-03-2007, 12:49 AM
well i think anderson is playing well enough that a team wouldnt mind bringing him in next year for more money then the browns are

Xenos
10-03-2007, 01:15 AM
Shiver, good write up and I agree with a lot of it, but as for firing AJ Smith I just can't agree with, though I can certianly see the logic.

I really don't think you can fire AJ Smith. He made a mistake in bringing in Norv, but I'm not convinced Marty would have made this team a winner...they stunk in 2005 too, and blew many games they should have won, which isn't that different from this year. Marty also got a lot more invovled with some aspects of the team, that really weren't his field to be involved in, and AJ does handle much better then him, like salary cap issues, player evaluation, etc.

I also agree that he hasn't really hit on anything in the secondary yet, but he's hit all over the board on other positions. He's also only really drafted Cromartie and Weddle as his top flight draft choices (I think, I might be wrong on this depending on when Florence was drafted). I know thats not good, and I completely agree he sucks at finding players in the secondary, but he's also the guy who found Gates as an UDFA, Dielman as an UDFA, made a good trade that netted us Merriman, found Phillips, Castillo, Olshansky, Olivea, Vjax....not all those guys are playing great this year, but they're all great finds and serious assets to the team brought in under AJ. He's good at finding talent later on in the draft and its really helped the team move out (although we're heading right back) from the basement.

He really screwed up bringing in Norv, but I'm still not convinced Marty was any "less wrong" then AJ in their feud. And at the end of the day, Spanos sided with AJ over Marty, it wasn't just AJ's decision. That being said....he really ****** up with Norv and Cotrell, and I've lost some of my confidence in him...but not enough I want him gone. He has excessive pride and "ego", and he does need to know he screwed this one up....but he's still one of the best their is at building a roster.

Edit: Again, I know he's made some mistakes this year, and its resulted in us being absolutely terrible in a huge year for us...but with what he has done to build this team, I'll give him another shot any day before canning him.

AJ got cocky after the Wade Phillips hire in 2004.

fenikz
10-03-2007, 01:28 AM
Matt Leinart actually wasn't that bad and had a 45 yard pass to fitz. They put warner in to try to get a quick score ala the 2 minute drill. (which he did perfectly) then they went with leinart to slow it down, run/control the clock. Although he didn't have any touchdown passes, he lead them to their 3rd touchdown drive.

Ya basically anything being said about Leinart is extremely exaggerated, he looked very good closing out the win against the Steelers, and very good against Seattle 2 Weeks ago.

CannedToast
10-03-2007, 01:35 AM
Disagreements:

Osi being "a better and more productive DE than Julius Peppers."

You may say that Osi is more productive *so far* in *this season*, but he isn't a better player. It just so happened that Osi played a game against Winston Justice while Peppers hasn't, or else we would be complaining about both of their levels of production.

Pennington: This year he's at 5 TD's 2 INT (not including his rushing TD)... that's 2.5:1, which really isn't that bad, considering we have no running game. Also, you say that Eli and Ben have stepped up, but neither averages the percentage (Penny 77, Ben 58, Eli 60) Avg (Penny 7.6, Ben 7.4, Eli 6.7) and they have pretty much TD/INT and TD/Game ratios (with Eli being the worst of the three for both of the last two). Not to mention Penny's QB rating, which of people with 50+ attempts, has him at 5th in the league. People just love to hate Chad.

BlindSite
10-03-2007, 03:16 AM
John Fox Must Go

The year 2003 was a long, long time ago. Yet John Fox is still living off the legacy he established back then. Ever since that time the Panthers have underachieved and performed inconsistently. Kris Jenkins’ rant practically called out Fox for not getting the team motivated and ready to play. Fox’s team has been humiliated twice, at home no less. Anything short of a post-season run he needs to go. He will be a standout DC somewhere in ’08.


I don't think its time to go, but I think its time for a major overhaul of his understaff. Carolina has a great LBers, Receivers and RBs coach, Dave Magdzu is working wonders with the offensive line and Jeff King under Jeff Davidson has been looking like a legitmate tight end. Nothing like guys like Crumpler or Witten of course, but at least like a viable option like a Daniel Graham. Which is what the team needed.

Sal Sunseri has largely done a good job on the defensive line developing Peppers, Jenkins and Kemoeatu (who has been good this year). However, he needs to get rid of Mike Rucker and if need be sit Peppers for a game till whatever is wrong gets better.

Danny Crossman is a terrible ST coach and since he took over in 04 the Panthers have been in the bottom of the league consistently in special teams despite brining in pretty decent and above all else, fast and hard hitting talent from around the NFL and through the draft. The players there have tools as they showed them in other teams and in college but the production, technique and seemingly preparation aren't there.

On defense Trgovac is useless, he continuously calls stupid plays like 3 man rushes on 4th down and tries to use Peppers like a linebacker. What he needs to do is become a lot more aggressive like Del Rio was, and like the defense as in '03 when Trgovac was using Del Rio's blue print.

Marty Hurney needs to remove Trgovac and Crossman altogether and poach another coach from ANYWHERE who'll call plays to suit our team. We've got linebackers who can blitz as its all TD did in college and we've got Stanley McClover who could be a force as an edge rusher. Rucker is old slow and weaker but Otis Grigsby has shown promise, as did Damoine Lewis playing in spot duty as a DE. Why have none of these options been revisited?

The problems with the Panthers are the coordinators and assistants not pulling their heads out of their asses and catering to the team's strength. They've got a do what we want mentality instead of do what they can, which is the problem. Fox needs to fix this, yes. However Hurney has a long leash with Richardson and that needs to be altered to give Fox more control.

Fox needs to right the ship, but a lot has to change before he should be kicked to the curb.


Quick Hits
[
Osi Umenyiora IS better and more productive than Julius Peppers. No, really, I’m serious.[/LIST][LIST]

You're going to say Umenyiora is a better DE when Peppers has his first down year EVER? Since a rookie he's been a dominant force EVERYWHERE, he gets sick, misses a lot of the offseason and continues to play ill (coaches were checking his pulse on the sideline against Tampa, speaking volumes to his health imo).

Osi is good, possibly even getting to the area he's on Par, but better? Not yet.

TitleTown088
10-03-2007, 06:02 AM
A week 4 "thoughts" thread without mentioning the all time TD record? What an atrocity.

bigbluedefense
10-03-2007, 11:07 AM
I agree on Trent Edwards. This kid has "it". I haven't seen Lossman as much as I should, but Edwards has impressed me more in his one outing.

Think about it, he's a rookie in his first start, and he does that? I was very impressed.


Smith shouldn't be fired. Im glad to see him eat humblepie though. I hated his arrogant attitude.

Xenos
10-03-2007, 01:05 PM
I agree on Trent Edwards. This kid has "it". I haven't seen Lossman as much as I should, but Edwards has impressed me more in his one outing.

Think about it, he's a rookie in his first start, and he does that? I was very impressed.


Smith shouldn't be fired. Im glad to see him eat humblepie though. I hated his arrogant attitude.

I blame Marty for the firing as well. It seems like it's an ongoing problem with him wherever he coaches. He wants to be a GM as well as a coach, and that's not gonna happen. Essentially we watched power plays between the two men.

Geo
10-03-2007, 01:22 PM
If the San Diego debacle has done one good thing, it's that it has reminded people that Marty Schottenheimer is a very good head coach, something that was completely eclipsed by his last playoff loss.

Yes, Marty's playoff record speaks for itself. No doubt. But he has put his teams in position to win, take a look for yourself.

JK17
10-03-2007, 01:40 PM
If the San Diego debacle has done one good thing, it's that it has reminded people that Marty Schottenheimer is a very good head coach, something that was completely eclipsed by his last playoff loss.

Yes, Marty's playoff record speaks for itself. No doubt. But he has put his teams in position to win, take a look for yourself.

Yeah, I mean I take AJ's side on the issue, but I'll defend Marty as a coach too. I think he reaches too far on what his power should be, but people tend to forget that "Martyball" does win football games. A lot of those things like running the ball with the lead, playing good defense, preventing turnovers....those are things every coach praises, and something we desperately need....but when it becomes "Martyball" all of a sudden it was a bad decision.

soybean
10-03-2007, 01:46 PM
I agree on Trent Edwards. This kid has "it". I haven't seen Lossman as much as I should, but Edwards has impressed me more in his one outing.
Think about it, he's a rookie in his first start, and he does that? I was very impressed.


Smith shouldn't be fired. Im glad to see him eat humblepie though. I hated his arrogant attitude.

seriously. When i was watching the draft and they called "Kevin Kolb" and "John Beck" I was like WTF?

Jakey
10-03-2007, 01:49 PM
I completeley agree about Holmes and Dockett, i watched the Pitt/Arz game and them two were by far the most impressive young players in the game. I think they've both got bright futures in the NFL.

Shiver
10-03-2007, 01:51 PM
You're going to say Umenyiora is a better DE when Peppers has his first down year EVER? Since a rookie he's been a dominant force EVERYWHERE, he gets sick, misses a lot of the offseason and continues to play ill (coaches were checking his pulse on the sideline against Tampa, speaking volumes to his health imo).

Osi is good, possibly even getting to the area he's on Par, but better? Not yet.


Osi Umenyiora will have had the better overall season in two of the last three years more than likely, and the year he wasn't as good as Peppers he missed five games. Peppers has shown dominance, usually in the even numbered years, but he disappears far more often than he should. He'll go a whole month without making an impact. Last year he could have won the DPOTY award, but he didn't do anything the last half of the year. Not to mention Peppers has never been as good against the run as he should be considering his size.

Number 10
10-03-2007, 02:13 PM
You're starting to see the light Shiv

bigbluedefense
10-03-2007, 02:15 PM
Osi Umenyiora will have had the better overall season in two of the last three years more than likely, and the year he wasn't as good as Peppers he missed five games. Peppers has shown dominance, usually in the even numbered years, but he disappears far more often than he should. He'll go a whole month without making an impact. Last year he could have won the DPOTY award, but he didn't do anything the last half of the year. Not to mention Peppers has never been as good against the run as he should be considering his size.

Its about time someone other than a Giants fan said it.

ShutDwn
10-03-2007, 02:52 PM
John Fox Must Go

The year 2003 was a long, long time ago. Yet John Fox is still living off the legacy he established back then. Ever since that time the Panthers have underachieved and performed inconsistently. Kris Jenkins’ rant practically called out Fox for not getting the team motivated and ready to play. Fox’s team has been humiliated twice, at home no less. Anything short of a post-season run he needs to go. He will be a standout DC somewhere in ’08.



It has been a little more than the last two games Shiver.In the last four home games including last year they have been outscored 118-44.

They called a players only meeting today, doubt it helps because most of the team has the same BS complacent attitude Fox does.

The defense has been awful, playing a bend and then break defense the entire season, only getting lucking when Orlando Pace went down and Hall imploding. With Jake gone, and Carr completely oblivious as to how to get the ball to Smith, they are looking at a very high draft pick.

Shiver
10-03-2007, 03:07 PM
Yikes! There is nothing worse for a HC's future than a player's only meeting. It's even worse than the dreaded "vote of confidence."

keylime_5
10-03-2007, 04:47 PM
Derek Anderson is making the Brady Quinn pick (and the lost 1st round pick) look like a poor decision.

Au contrare! I think he's making it look like a good decision-if we win more than 7 games then our first round pick was worth trading for a player like Brady Quinn since it won't be a top 10 pick. Derek is playing very well this year, but he is not gonna be a franchise QB who we can builld the team around and win playoff games with anytime soon. He has proved he can be a starting QB, but not a great QB. Quinn has more upside than any QB we've had here in Cleveland in a long long time, and is the type of leader who can become a Peyton Manning/Carson Palmer/Tom Brady type player possibly if he lives up to his potential.

Nutshell:As well as Anderson has done, he's not the longterm answer. At very best we have the next Brees/Rivers situation, but I kinda doubt that. Quinn will be the starter next year ala the 04 Bengals (no pt for Palmer yet he was named starter outright despite a good year by Kitna).

Just my opinion, but I do think your post was a very good one.

BlindSite
10-03-2007, 04:54 PM
Osi Umenyiora will have had the better overall season in two of the last three years more than likely, and the year he wasn't as good as Peppers he missed five games. Peppers has shown dominance, usually in the even numbered years, but he disappears far more often than he should. He'll go a whole month without making an impact. Last year he could have won the DPOTY award, but he didn't do anything the last half of the year. Not to mention Peppers has never been as good against the run as he should be considering his size.


You're looking at stats, not the impact plays, there's a lot of hurries, pressures, hits and stops behind the line that are never taken into account statistically. Football outsiders DVOA ranked Peppers last year behind the games DPOTY for effectiveness and ability.

As for his ineffectiveness against the run I really do not know where this is coming from teams routinely run away from Peppers knowing his ability and favour heading against rucker.

Not only that but he's consistently double and triple teamed. If he wasn't ill this season and having his first down year due to an illness there wouldn't even bea discussion.

bigbluedefense
10-03-2007, 05:07 PM
You're looking at stats, not the impact plays, there's a lot of hurries, pressures, hits and stops behind the line that are never taken into account statistically. Football outsiders DVOA ranked Peppers last year behind the games DPOTY for effectiveness and ability.

As for his ineffectiveness against the run I really do not know where this is coming from teams routinely run away from Peppers knowing his ability and favour heading against rucker.

Not only that but he's consistently double and triple teamed. If he wasn't ill this season and having his first down year due to an illness there wouldn't even bea discussion.

and how does this not apply to Osi?

And what premises does Football outsiders use? For every debateable stat you find, someone can find a counter stat. Those type of stats can't be measured. Its like trying to use metrics to justify who's better than who in the offseason.

And i still can't believe people use the "he's always doubled" saying. Because its seriously an old tired excuse. Every team's #1 pass rusher is doubled. That is meaningless to the conversation.

LonghornsLegend
10-03-2007, 05:09 PM
Au contrare! I think he's making it look like a good decision-if we win more than 7 games then our first round pick was worth trading for a player like Brady Quinn since it won't be a top 10 pick. Derek is playing very well this year, but he is not gonna be a franchise QB who we can builld the team around and win playoff games with anytime soon. He has proved he can be a starting QB, but not a great QB. Quinn has more upside than any QB we've had here in Cleveland in a long long time, and is the type of leader who can become a Peyton Manning/Carson Palmer/Tom Brady type player possibly if he lives up to his potential.

Nutshell:As well as Anderson has done, he's not the longterm answer. At very best we have the next Brees/Rivers situation, but I kinda doubt that. Quinn will be the starter next year ala the 04 Bengals (no pt for Palmer yet he was named starter outright despite a good year by Kitna).

Just my opinion, but I do think your post was a very good one.


I guess thats true, but you guys could of also took Peterson early on, and made an outside push at the playoffs with anderson, thats why alot of teams passed on quinn because they felt like they could win with who they had, even if it wasnt a "franchise qb", so i dont feel like it was abad move, but it could of went another direction and turned out better or just as good...then maybe if you still want your franchise left tackle you trade next yrs 1st rd for joe staley, and ride anderson out 2 or so years...he looks good, weapons are developing...and honestly with peterson and staley who knows where it could of taken your team...


i like trading up for quinn regardless, because like you said your pick wont be as high next year, so you took the franchise qb when you had the chance to nab one, but I could of also seen you guys passing on him and becoming a better team

ShutDwn
10-03-2007, 05:39 PM
Peppers is probably still recovering from what he had, he is just completely flat right now, being blocked by nobodies. It is probably a combination of the sickness and the team sucking and nobody believing in the system.

But I am not going to make excuses for him, I expect the best out of him.


Yikes! There is nothing worse for a HC's future than a player's only meeting. It's even worse than the dreaded "vote of confidence."

I sense sarcasm. Fox isn't fired yet, but the fact that the team has no enthusiasm and can't get up for a game against a division rival at home is pathetic. It will take a bad season to get him fired, one where people won't pull out the injury excuse. Making the Delhomme injury even worse.

JETS5128
10-03-2007, 06:38 PM
Don't really agree with benching Penny. He is not playing poorly at all right now, his 2 ints this season were both when he was facing pressure and was forced to try and make a play. He certainly isn't a game-changer, but he is an above average QB. However, if we are clearly out of the playoff picture later in the year i see no reason to not play Clemens

BlindSite
10-04-2007, 02:16 AM
and how does this not apply to Osi?

And what premises does Football outsiders use? For every debateable stat you find, someone can find a counter stat. Those type of stats can't be measured. Its like trying to use metrics to justify who's better than who in the offseason.

And i still can't believe people use the "he's always doubled" saying. Because its seriously an old tired excuse. Every team's #1 pass rusher is doubled. That is meaningless to the conversation.

So you just said Stats are ********, yet that's what you and shiver and all the other osi lovers out there are doing...

I'm sorry but a double standard doesn't wash... Yeah, Peppers is doubled and Osi has Strahan the most productive DE ever on his other side. Peppers has Mike Rucker who was last effective as a pass rusher in 2003...

There's a big difference with the supporting cast here. Peppers has the better defensive tackles yes, but he's also made a lot more game changing high impact plays than Osi Umenyiora has.

TitleTown088
10-04-2007, 07:51 AM
If i read another 15 page Osi-Peppers debate I'm going to stab myself in the face.

bored of education
10-04-2007, 08:00 AM
Jared Allen is better(at drinking)than both so ****!

Jughead10
10-04-2007, 08:22 AM
So you just said Stats are ********, yet that's what you and shiver and all the other osi lovers out there are doing...

I'm sorry but a double standard doesn't wash... Yeah, Peppers is doubled and Osi has Strahan the most productive DE ever on his other side. Peppers has Mike Rucker who was last effective as a pass rusher in 2003...

There's a big difference with the supporting cast here. Peppers has the better defensive tackles yes, but he's also made a lot more game changing high impact plays than Osi Umenyiora has.

I think the problem is that Peppers should be hands down better than Osi, and he just isn't. If Peppers played the way he could or should, no one would be having this discussion. But he isn't and we are having this discussion. And for someone of his size, he should play the run much better. Osi has done that better over the past 2 year and this year so far in that aspect of the game.

Number 10
10-04-2007, 10:42 AM
Peppers has the edge in people's minds off the bat in a comparison because of his measurables and where he was selected in the draft, it's that simple.

But, if you took the time to actually watch both of them play it is clear that Osi brings more to the table on a week in and week out basis. I still remember going to the Carolina-Giants game in Carolina last year and just hearing some of the things Panthers fans were saying about Peppers being non-existent again cracked me up.

bigbluedefense
10-04-2007, 11:45 AM
So you just said Stats are ********, yet that's what you and shiver and all the other osi lovers out there are doing...

I'm sorry but a double standard doesn't wash... Yeah, Peppers is doubled and Osi has Strahan the most productive DE ever on his other side. Peppers has Mike Rucker who was last effective as a pass rusher in 2003...

There's a big difference with the supporting cast here. Peppers has the better defensive tackles yes, but he's also made a lot more game changing high impact plays than Osi Umenyiora has.

The last thing i want is another Osi/Peppers debate. And no, Im not saying Osi is better bc of stats (im not even saying Osi is better, I have to see more to declare that). I don't like judging players on numbers, in fact i hate it. I judge them based on what i see. I was pointing out how you can't use immeasureable stats such as hurries as justification that one is better than another. You can't even really use tackles or sacks, its not the end all be all determinant of who can do what.

And from my eyeball evaluations of both players, as touted as Peppers is, he doesn't play the run as well as Osi, and theyre (prior to this year) equal as pass rushers when both are healthy. So I just don't see all the fuss in Peppers. My biggest complaint about him is the ridiculous hype he gets. People rave about Peppers like he's the best DE in years, and that is simply not true. He only had one dominant season where he was runner up for DPOY. Other than that, how can we label a guy the clear best at his position when other players at his position have been outperforming him for several years?

Heck, Ive heard people compare him to Reggie White. And that is absolutely ridiculous.

Its not a Osi/Peppers thing I have an issue with personally. I just think that as physically gifted as he is, he should be so much better than he really is, and i think the mass public grossly overexaggerates his skillset based on his measureables. Thats my stance on it. And that has always been my stance on this subject.

ShutDwn
10-04-2007, 02:15 PM
The last thing i want is another Osi/Peppers debate. And no, Im not saying Osi is better bc of stats (im not even saying Osi is better, I have to see more to declare that). I don't like judging players on numbers, in fact i hate it. I judge them based on what i see. I was pointing out how you can't use immeasureable stats such as hurries as justification that one is better than another. You can't even really use tackles or sacks, its not the end all be all determinant of who can do what.

And from my eyeball evaluations of both players, as touted as Peppers is, he doesn't play the run as well as Osi, and theyre (prior to this year) equal as pass rushers when both are healthy. So I just don't see all the fuss in Peppers. My biggest complaint about him is the ridiculous hype he gets. People rave about Peppers like he's the best DE in years, and that is simply not true. He only had one dominant season where he was runner up for DPOY. Other than that, how can we label a guy the clear best at his position when other players at his position have been outperforming him for several years?

Heck, Ive heard people compare him to Reggie White. And that is absolutely ridiculous.

Its not a Osi/Peppers thing I have an issue with personally. I just think that as physically gifted as he is, he should be so much better than he really is, and i think the mass public grossly overexaggerates his skillset based on his measureables. Thats my stance on it. And that has always been my stance on this subject.

Peppers is good against the run, that is why teams run to the left more than right against the Panthers.

But really, I don't see why these four games are the deciding factor that Osi is better than Peppers. Osi had been shut out as well before getting 6 sacks.

Number 10
10-04-2007, 02:18 PM
Peppers is good against the run, that is why teams run to the left more than right against the Panthers.

But really, I don't see why these four games are the deciding factor that Osi is better than Peppers. Osi had been shut out as well before getting 6 sacks.

Did you see what happened to Osi on the first drive of the first game? Did you watch the second hald of the Washington game?

Noone is saying Peppers is a bad player, he clearly is one of the best DEs in the NFL. I would run to the other side of the line too, I mean....look who they have on the other side.

ShutDwn
10-04-2007, 03:46 PM
Did you see what happened to Osi on the first drive of the first game? Did you watch the second hald of the Washington game?

Noone is saying Peppers is a bad player, he clearly is one of the best DEs in the NFL. I would run to the other side of the line too, I mean....look who they have on the other side.

What does the first drive of the first game have to do with anything? Did he get hurt? I am betting that would be an excuse if he hadn't racked up all those sacks.

However, Peppers missed at least a week of training camp and is still not the Julius we know. This is far beyond Peppers disappearing for a few games, he is nowhere close to being 100%, he doesn't even look 70%. Not just from his play on the field, where he has no energy and no explosion, but on the bench where he is getting checked on constantly, and held out for plays. He is even using an inhaler. Who knows what it is, possibly something like walking Pneumonia, which if you have had you would know it takes a ton of energy to go up ten stairs let alone beat an offensive lineman.

It is also curious as to why the entire line is failing to do anything. Possibly an indicator to Peppers' impact on the defense.

Number 10
10-04-2007, 03:50 PM
What does the first drive of the first game have to do with anything? Did he get hurt? I am betting that would be an excuse if he hadn't racked up all those sacks.

However, Peppers missed at least a week of training camp and is still not the Julius we know. This is far beyond Peppers disappearing for a few games, he is nowhere close to being 100%, he doesn't even look 70%. Not just from his play on the field, where he has no energy and no explosion, but on the bench where he is getting checked on constantly, and held out for plays. He is even using an inhaler. Who knows what it is, possibly something like walking Pneumonia, which if you have had you would know it takes a ton of energy to go up ten stairs let alone beat an offensive lineman.

It is also curious as to why the entire line is failing to do anything. Possibly an indicator to Peppers' impact on the defense.

The fact that you don't know what happened on the first drive of the game makes your view on this comparison even more invalid. You need to have more knowledge of Osi AKA watch him more before you can have an opinion of him.

scottyboy
10-04-2007, 04:06 PM
the point that Osi and Peppers both had 0 sacks until last game. It's true, and even if Julius is/was 70%, Osi missed basically a whole game and had an injury some were speculating could keep him out a month. and sure, they had the same amount of sacks for 3 weeks, until Osi had 6 in week four. no matter how you slice and dice it, Osi still has 6 more sacks than peppers.

ShutDwn
10-04-2007, 05:05 PM
The fact that you don't know what happened on the first drive of the game makes your view on this comparison even more invalid. You need to have more knowledge of Osi AKA watch him more before you can have an opinion of him.

So you are saying that you have watched the Panthers this year every game and Julius Peppers?

I saw Osi leave the field, I know he was hurt. However, it wasn't enough to stop him from practicing.

"When it first happened I thought I was going to be out for a while, but it doesn't look like I am going to be out for that long right now," he said. "I feel pretty well. I feel actually all right."

Doesn't seem that bad to me.

Peppers hasn't been healthy since training camp, being held out of preseason games and practices.

the point that Osi and Peppers both had 0 sacks until last game. It's true, and even if Julius is/was 70%, Osi missed basically a whole game and had an injury some were speculating could keep him out a month. and sure, they had the same amount of sacks for 3 weeks, until Osi had 6 in week four. no matter how you slice and dice it, Osi still has 6 more sacks than peppers.

I don't see your point. Osi missed a game? Big deal, Peppers shouldn't even be out there. Read the quote, Osi doesn't feel that bad.

Osi seems to be injured a lot.

Note that I do think that Osi is a great player and that Julius does disappear in the season, but this is not one of those times. I wish Peppers was more of that pure pass rusher Osi is, but he doesn't have a Strahan to help him out in that department. Fox as failed to get Peppers to reach his potential, yes it is also the players job, but being as athletic as he is, Julius is going to lean toward relying on his athleticism. The coaches haven't taught him to play more consistently. Peppers is over rated at times, but other times he does live up to his hype and plays rediculous. I just don't see why these last four games (where both were ineffective for their first three games, and than Osi with a monster game) are the deciding factor on who is better.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-04-2007, 07:45 PM
For what it's worth, osi is the only player I've ever seen make walter jones his *****

justin sandy
10-04-2007, 09:21 PM
theres a reason why the browns drafted derek anderson.. they saw promise in him, and i think hes the guy over quinn for the next couple years unless something drastic happens (a big injury or anderson struggles i guess)

BlindSite
10-05-2007, 12:15 AM
Peppers is good against the run, that is why teams run to the left more than right against the Panthers.

But really, I don't see why these four games are the deciding factor that Osi is better than Peppers. Osi had been shut out as well before getting 6 sacks.

I really have no idea where these statements about him being poor against the run are coming from.

Every Play Counts: Julius Peppers

10/18/2006

by Michael David Smith

Is Julius Peppers underrated? That might seem like a silly question because everyone who follows football knows that Peppers is a good player, a rare talent who has not only the typical strength of a defensive end but also the speed and athleticism of the power forward he once was. But watching Peppers on every play of the Carolina Panthers’ 23-21 victory over the Baltimore Ravens, my jaw dropped at seeing not just a good or even very good player, but a defensive lineman doing things I didn’t think a defensive lineman could do.

Baltimore’s blocking schemes revolved around controlling Peppers. On each play of the Ravens’ first possession, both right tackle Tony Pashos and running back Jamal Lewis blocked Peppers. All three plays were passes, and on all three Lewis chipped Peppers before running his route because the Ravens figured that Pashos couldn’t keep Peppers off quarterback Steve McNair without Lewis’s help. Peppers didn’t do anything extraordinary on that possession, but just seeing the way Baltimore opened the game showed how much its game plan focused on Peppers.

On the second possession, Baltimore still doubled Peppers, with little success. On the first play of the series both Pashos and right guard Keydrick Vincent blocked Peppers. On the second play, Vincent held Peppers, but it wasn’t called. On the third play, Peppers bull-rushed Vincent, collapsing the pocket and forcing McNair into a bad throw, which strong safety Colin Branch intercepted. At this point, the Panthers’ defense had been on the field for six plays. Peppers had been doubled four times and held once, and on the one play he was neither, he forced a turnover.

Holding was Baltimore’s most effective strategy. On a second-and-4 on Baltimore’s fifth possession, Peppers stunted to the inside and Vincent held him. In fact, Vincent held Peppers every time they went one-on-one. Later in the game Pashos started joining Vincent in holding. The officials never called it, though. It was actually a smart tactic. Referee Peter Morelli’s crew was calling the game, and that crew has called by far the fewest holding penalties of any group of officials this year. If the officials aren’t going to call it, the linemen might as well do it. My advice to all offensive linemen: When Morelli works your game, just hold all day.

On the Ravens’ third possession, Carolina’s defense revealed a different wrinkle when Peppers dropped into coverage on first-and-10. Peppers’ presence kept McNair from having an easy checkdown to Lewis or tight end Todd Heap, and that forced McNair to hold onto the ball too long. Linebacker Chris Draft and defensive end Mike Rucker sacked him, knocking him out of the game.

Peppers dropped into coverage a few more times as Carolina zone-blitzed with Draft or other linebackers. On a first-and-10 in the third quarter, Todd Heap went in motion to the right and Peppers dropped back to cover Heap, which would usually be a linebacker’s job. Kyle Boller (who played most of the game in relief of McNair) rolled to his right and threw to Heap, and Peppers tackled him for a nine-yard gain. In general, I don’t like that strategy for the Panthers. Why not have Peppers rush the passer so Boller can’t roll to the right in the first place, rather than having Peppers drop back and therefore giving Boller free rein to find someone open? It’s not that Peppers can’t cover the tight end, it’s just that he’s so great at rushing the passer that having him in coverage seems like a waste. It’s an interesting strategy for an occasional change of pace, but generally if the other team is passing and Peppers isn’t rushing, Carolina isn’t using his talents properly.

After the sack that knocked McNair out of the game, Boller’s first two plays were probably Peppers’ most impressive plays of the day. On second-and-19, Peppers lined up at left end. Boller threw a short pass to Lewis along the sideline on the opposite side of the field, and Peppers pursued Lewis across the field and pushed him out of bounds after a gain of only five yards. Defensive ends just aren’t supposed to run down running backs like that, but Peppers did it. And on the next play, Peppers made the tackle in pursuit on the opposite side of the field again. It was third-and-14 and Peppers rushed to the outside. Pashos blocked him, and running back Musa Smith helped with a chip. Boller rolled out and took off running on the other side of the field, and Peppers ran across the field and tackled him for a gain of only six yards.

That pursuit is what separates Peppers from other defensive ends. On third-and-15 on Baltimore’s fourth possession, the Ravens ran a draw to Smith. Peppers started the play on an outside rush. On that type of play, the offense doesn’t worry about the defensive end — even the best defensive ends can’t be expected to rush to the outside and then tackle a running back on a draw up the middle. But when Peppers recognized the draw, he reversed course, drilled Smith and forced a fumble. Peppers isn’t like other defensive ends.

On a first-and-10 later, Mike Anderson took a handoff off the right tackle, running away from Peppers. But when the right side of the Panthers’ defense bottled up Anderson, it was Peppers, pursuing the play from the backside, who tackled Anderson for a loss of two.

While I’m praising Peppers I should acknowledge the obvious, which is that he doesn’t make every play. On a third-and-9 with Boller in the shotgun, Peppers tried to rush to the outside, and Pashos did a nice job allowing him to rush upfield but not collapse the pocket. Boller had time to pick up the first down while Peppers essentially took himself out of the play. But those plays were the exception, and Peppers’ pressure masked some bad coverage from Carolina’s secondary. On a third-and-6 on Baltimore’s sixth possession, Heap beat Carolina defensive back James Anderson and was open deep, but Peppers’ pressure forced Boller to throw the ball without getting completely set, causing an incompletion on what could have been a 40-yard gain. On one first-and-10 in the third quarter, Lewis was left to block Peppers one-on-one. That was a mismatch. Boller rolled to the outside, Peppers got past Lewis and got in Boller’s face, and Boller had to throw the ball away to avoid a sack.

Sacks are the main way defensive linemen get attention, but I haven’t even mentioned Peppers’ two sacks Sunday. One was a first-and-10, when Peppers rushed straight ahead into Pashos, knocked him to the ground, and sacked Boller for a loss of six yards. The other came on a second-and-10 when Peppers rushed to the outside and evaded both Pashos and Vincent. Boller tried to run up the middle, and Peppers reversed course, getting into the middle of the field to sack Boller for a three-yard loss. Peppers shows a very instinctive ability to know where the ball carrier is going. Most defensive ends would have continued to rush to the outside, but Peppers seemed to sense that Boller was going to go up the middle, and he got there in time to sack him.

So if Peppers can sack quarterbacks, run down running backs, and cover tight ends, is there anything he can’t do? If I were an opposing offensive coordinator, I’d try to run directly at him. Peppers is a strong player and a sure tackler, but if he showed any weakness Sunday it was that Pashos sometimes beat him in straight-ahead run blocking. But this is a mere quibble. Peppers showed on Sunday that he’s not just a good player. He’s the best defensive player in the NFL.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-05-2007, 09:04 AM
Another thing you can look at: Osi goes against the LT on the opposing team, whereas Peppers goes against the RT. The LT is always better than the RT.

bigbluedefense
10-05-2007, 09:18 AM
Blindsite, your last post is a perfect example of what Im talking about.

Peppers fans always point out how he's doubled, how he's chipped etc. Do you honestly think that he's the ONLY DE in the league that gets this? Every team's best pass rusher faces that same problem. Peppers isn't the only one.

Michael Smith isn't the end all of arguments either. I can find a writer who praises Osi too. Big deal. Smith even points out how Peppers is vulnerable against the run.

The only thing I give Peppers is his coverage abilities. But like Ive said a million times, thats just a cherry on top situation. If youre a DE, youre ultimately measured by how you stop the run and rush the passer. Peppers is not the best run stuffing DE, nor the best pass rushing DE. He's very good, and one of the best, but he is not THE best. Plain and simple.

Anyway, Im tired of beating the same dead horse over and over again, so this is my last post on this matter. Again, I want to clearly state, that my issue isn't an Osi/Peppers thing, but the fact that Pepper's is overrated as a football player by many fans. Is he one of the best? Yes. Is he the absolute best? NO. Is he an all time great? NO. He has alot to prove before we pencil him in for Canton.

All these kiddies see how great he is in Madden, and ZOMG Pepperz is the big1111!!! Im tired of it. Watch the ****** game.

Jughead10
10-05-2007, 09:24 AM
Agreed about the chipping and double team. Smith starts the article by syaing how much attention was put on Peppers right away because he was blocked by the RT and chipped by a RB before he went on a route. Big deal.

People wanted to originally say Peppers was the next Michael Strahan. Well he is no where near close. Thats why we can even have this debate about how much better or worse he is than Osi. Michael Strahan was held, doubled, and tripled his whole career. And he never dissapeared like Peppers does. Only now that he is 35 or 36 does he dissapear.

Shiver
10-05-2007, 12:52 PM
Another thing you can look at: Osi goes against the LT on the opposing team, whereas Peppers goes against the RT. The LT is always better than the RT.


Which is why when Osi Umenyiora beat Walter Jones like a drum when he had two years without getting beat is more impressive than anything Peppers has done.

Chucky
10-05-2007, 12:54 PM
Which is why when Osi Umenyiora beat Walter Jones like a drum when he had two years without getting beat is more impressive than anything Peppers has done.

Even though he did get two sacks in that game, Osi was pretty much non-existant for the the rest of the game, so i wouldnt exactly call that beating jones like a drum

Geo
10-05-2007, 01:05 PM
Osi Umenyiora transcends reality and fact, don't you know?

Jughead10
10-05-2007, 01:08 PM
Osi Umenyiora transcends reality and fact, don't you know?

That's Chief Osi Umenyiora to you.

Number 10
10-05-2007, 02:42 PM
Even though he did get two sacks in that game, Osi was pretty much non-existant for the the rest of the game, so i wouldnt exactly call that beating jones like a drum

Wohhhhh.

That was, without a doubt the best game of Osi's career, well up until Sunday night. He did not disappear for one second....I think he finished with 7-8 tackles, 2 sacks, and 2 pressures. He toyed with Jones the entire game, I have the tape.

And I'll give you that Jones handled Osi pretty well last year, and I won't cop put like some people by talking about double teams and chip blocks.

BlindSite
10-05-2007, 11:55 PM
Another thing you can look at: Osi goes against the LT on the opposing team, whereas Peppers goes against the RT. The LT is always better than the RT.

You act like a RT is nothing, you also forget that its more likely that the Left End faces running backs and tight ends on chips and double teams, which happens a hell of a lot.

Blindsite, your last post is a perfect example of what Im talking about.

Peppers fans always point out how he's doubled, how he's chipped etc. Do you honestly think that he's the ONLY DE in the league that gets this? Every team's best pass rusher faces that same problem. Peppers isn't the only one.

Michael Smith isn't the end all of arguments either. I can find a writer who praises Osi too. Big deal. Smith even points out how Peppers is vulnerable against the run.

The only thing I give Peppers is his coverage abilities. But like Ive said a million times, thats just a cherry on top situation. If youre a DE, youre ultimately measured by how you stop the run and rush the passer. Peppers is not the best run stuffing DE, nor the best pass rushing DE. He's very good, and one of the best, but he is not THE best. Plain and simple.

Anyway, Im tired of beating the same dead horse over and over again, so this is my last post on this matter. Again, I want to clearly state, that my issue isn't an Osi/Peppers thing, but the fact that Pepper's is overrated as a football player by many fans. Is he one of the best? Yes. Is he the absolute best? NO. Is he an all time great? NO. He has alot to prove before we pencil him in for Canton.

All these kiddies see how great he is in Madden, and ZOMG Pepperz is the big1111!!! Im tired of it. Watch the ****** game.

I don't actually play madden anymore, but whatever...

I posted an article that helps to support my point that stats don't tell the full story, which we're on the same page for.

I watch games every week and the vast majority of runs against the Panthers go away from Peppers, way away, the reason being because he is good against the run. You're acting as if he's inept.

To top it off he's got better athletic ability than anyone at his position and he makes plays that are needed when they're needed.

Like I said before if the guy wasn't recovering from an illness and had a full off season program this wouldn't even be a debate.

I'm not replying anything else you've got to say on the matter, we're not going to change each others opinion and Shiver just likes to bust on any Panther in any discussion.

draftguru151
10-06-2007, 12:03 AM
theres a reason why the browns drafted derek anderson.. they saw promise in him, and i think hes the guy over quinn for the next couple years unless something drastic happens (a big injury or anderson struggles i guess)

He was drafted by the Ravens and cut before the season started. :/

Shiver
10-06-2007, 12:17 AM
I'm not replying anything else you've got to say on the matter, we're not going to change each others opinion and Shiver just likes to bust on any Panther in any discussion.


That's a ridiculous statement to make and you have no basis for proving it.

A Perfect Score
10-06-2007, 12:42 AM
He was drafted by the Ravens and cut before the season started. :/

beat me to it...i was just about to point that out lol

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-06-2007, 12:50 AM
Yeah IIRC Shiver was actually a big Peppers guy before he laid this egg.

Shiver
10-06-2007, 12:57 AM
I used to be on the opposite side of the Peppers/Umenyiora thing, and I still think Peppers' is one of the best DEs in the NFL. I just think that if Umenyiora has a standout season, this will be the second time in three seasons that he will have played superbly. Eventually he needs to be recognized as the best DE in the game.

As for my supposed bias against the Panthers: I really like DeAngelo Williams, Jordan Gross, Mike Wahle, Steve Smith, Richard Marshall, and Jon Beason.

mqtirishfan
10-06-2007, 01:29 AM
He was drafted by the Ravens and cut before the season started. :/

Well... Cleveland thought enough of him to pick him up and sit him on the bench before this year. :D

BlindSite
10-06-2007, 01:33 AM
I used to be on the opposite side of the Peppers/Umenyiora thing, and I still think Peppers' is one of the best DEs in the NFL. I just think that if Umenyiora has a standout season, this will be the second time in three seasons that he will have played superbly. Eventually he needs to be recognized as the best DE in the game.

As for my supposed bias against the Panthers: I really like DeAngelo Williams, Jordan Gross, Mike Wahle, Steve Smith, Richard Marshall, and Jon Beason.

Sorry dude, you're right, my apologies.

Shiver
10-06-2007, 01:45 AM
beat me to it...i was just about to point that out lol


You're ballsy to post in my thread with a Reggie Bush sig....



LOL

Moses
10-06-2007, 08:38 AM
I used to be on the opposite side of the Peppers/Umenyiora thing, and I still think Peppers' is one of the best DEs in the NFL. I just think that if Umenyiora has a standout season, this will be the second time in three seasons that he will have played superbly. Eventually he needs to be recognized as the best DE in the game.

As for my supposed bias against the Panthers: I really like DeAngelo Williams, Jordan Gross, Mike Wahle, Steve Smith, Richard Marshall, and Jon Beason.

Osi the best DE in the league? He's recorded double digit sacks once in his career. Other than in 2005, he has been average in the statistics department.

Number 10
10-06-2007, 10:37 AM
Blindsite-

Just FYI because you obviously don't watch enough of the Giants...The majority of the runs go away from Osi as well. However, his ability to pursue the ball and still cut the RB off at the line of scrimmage is arguably the best part of his game.

remix 6
10-06-2007, 11:18 AM
just a random though. how would a player like Reggie Bush be in a place like New England?

keep in mind
-versatility
-moving him around
-our coaching
-our offense

i know hes versatile, moves around as it is in New Orleans but anyone think under a guy like BB hed be a monster?

note: this is no rumor/speculation or anything. i just like Bush and i dream sometimes

bigbluedefense
10-06-2007, 01:35 PM
just a random though. how would a player like Reggie Bush be in a place like New England?

keep in mind
-versatility
-moving him around
-our coaching
-our offense

i know hes versatile, moves around as it is in New Orleans but anyone think under a guy like BB hed be a monster?

note: this is no rumor/speculation or anything. i just like Bush and i dream sometimes

He wouldn't fit well. Bellichick is from the Parcells school of thought. He likes RBs who run downhill.

And until Reggie works on his vision as a RB, he won't have more success anywhere else. He's in a great situation to succeed in NO. Once they get their oline settled, he really has no excuse not to perform. Right now you pin his struggles on the line somewhat, but there isn't a team in the league better suited for him outside of NO. He has all the pieces around him to succeed (once the oline picks it up that is).

soybean
10-06-2007, 01:45 PM
He wouldn't fit well. Bellichick is from the Parcells school of thought. He likes RBs who run downhill.

And until Reggie works on his vision as a RB, he won't have more success anywhere else. He's in a great situation to succeed in NO. Once they get their oline settled, he really has no excuse not to perform. Right now you pin his struggles on the line somewhat, but there isn't a team in the league better suited for him outside of NO. He has all the pieces around him to succeed (once the oline picks it up that is).

I disagree. Bush is good at taking what is given to him (well last year that is). If Sammy Morris can succeed, then there's no reason why bush, or any running back can't do well in New England.

bearsfan_51
10-06-2007, 01:46 PM
For what it's worth, osi is the only player I've ever seen make walter jones his *****
Mark Anderson completely dominated Jones last year.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2007, 01:51 PM
Mark Anderson completely dominated Jones last year.

Mark Anderson is a beast. 5th round pick. I think he was the steal of the draft.


Him and Kiwi are on the same level to me from an athetic standpoint. Andersen might be a better pure passrusher though. Kiwi as a player is probably better against the run.

remix 6
10-06-2007, 01:51 PM
I disagree. Bush is good at taking what is given to him (well last year that is). If Sammy Morris can succeed, then there's no reason why bush, or any running back can't do well in New England.

first of all Sammy is a good back imo. before he came here..he dominated us last year in 2nd game

but anyways..i think our OL is better than Saints..we have a QB with almost Peyton Manning like control of offense (i dont think Brady gets 3 plays in huddle and decides)

Maroney has run well...Dillon..Faulk..Morris..all last few years.

Maroney is not like Reggie in receiving. I think Bush is better than Faulk as a receiver since hes more of a threat as a runner..hes simply more dynamic although Faulk is 1 of the best 3rd down backs in the league and 1 of our msot reliable players. We can find a great way for Reggie to succeed. We'll change it up for him to make him comfortable just like we are doing with Maroney and the ZBS and Morris with power blocking against Bengals.

i think it would be crazy. maybe i been playing too much madden last few days :\

bigbluedefense
10-06-2007, 01:55 PM
Sammy Morris is a good player. Great vision, hits the hole hard, finishes with power, good shiftiness, good speed. He's a solid player if you ask me.

He's an above average #2 back. I would love to have him on the Gmen. I love those types of backs.

Shiver
10-06-2007, 02:48 PM
just a random though. how would a player like Reggie Bush be in a place like New England?

keep in mind
-versatility
-moving him around
-our coaching
-our offense

i know hes versatile, moves around as it is in New Orleans but anyone think under a guy like BB hed be a monster?

note: this is no rumor/speculation or anything. i just like Bush and i dream sometimes

He would be used as a faster version of Kevin Faulk, which wouldn't be a bad thing. Eventually people are going to realize he isn't magically going to become a dual-threat runner and receiver and they'll feature him more as a receiver.

draftguru151
10-06-2007, 02:53 PM
Sammy Morris is a good player. Great vision, hits the hole hard, finishes with power, good shiftiness, good speed. He's a solid player if you ask me.

He's an above average #2 back. I would love to have him on the Gmen. I love those types of backs.

He was nice to have in Miami. Versatile guy, played FB and did well when Ronnie got hurt.

soybean
10-06-2007, 02:59 PM
that kind of came out wrong, I didn't mean to imply he sucks. Just that if a backup can get 100+ yards fairly easy, then I believe many other starting runningbacks would flourish behind the patriots oline.

Shiver
10-06-2007, 03:01 PM
i think it would be crazy. maybe i been playing too much madden last few days :\


Reggie Bush is a monster in Madden. If he were 1/2 as good in real life as he is in Madden he'd be a top-5 NFL RB.

Moses
10-06-2007, 03:04 PM
Reggie Bush is a monster in Madden. If he were 1/2 as good in real life as he is in Madden he'd be a top-5 NFL RB.

His highlight stick moves are too slow though. ;)

I have him and LenDale White in my fantasy draft team. Nice combination. I just played a game where they had 25 carries a piece.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-06-2007, 03:24 PM
On Madden 05 I had Tatum Bell get over 3k yards running nothing but HB Counter.

remix 6
10-06-2007, 03:54 PM
that kind of came out wrong, I didn't mean to imply he sucks. Just that if a backup can get 100+ yards fairly easy, then I believe many other starting runningbacks would flourish behind the patriots oline.

take note that Bengals had 4 LBs going into the game..2 of them got hurt. they played 5-2 defense and even had Robert Geathers at OLB at 1 point :\

yes he played a great game but just because he got 100 yards against Bengals doesnt mean everyone will flourish here. our OL is too inconsistent

P-L
10-06-2007, 05:43 PM
I like both Osi and Peppers a lot, but I'm not ready to proclaim Osi the best DE in the NFL after one game against a very bad back-up LT, who is more suited to play RT. I give Osi a lot of credit, he had a hell of a performance but Justice looked lost all game. How quickly one 60-minute game of football can make people forget that Osi only had 8 tackles and 0 sacks in his first three games (I know he played very little of the Cowboys game).

Peppers struggled in the last 7 games last year and so far in his first 4 this year. But we need to also remember that 9 games into the 2006 season we were all going to hand him the Defensive Player of the Year without question. His 45 tackles and 11 sacks up to that point was crazy. I'm not trying to ignore Peppers' poor performances in 6 of his final 7 games of 2006 and the first 4 games of 2007, but I think we're being overly critical here.

If Osi can build off of his performance against the Eagles and have a great season, while Peppers continues to struggles then I'll probably move Osi ahead of him. But right now, I'll keep Peppers ahead of Osi. If Peppers comes out tomorrow and gets 3 or 4 sacks, then some of the guys who jumped ship after one game will look silly.

BlindSite
10-08-2007, 01:54 AM
Blindsite-

Just FYI because you obviously don't watch enough of the Giants...The majority of the runs go away from Osi as well. However, his ability to pursue the ball and still cut the RB off at the line of scrimmage is arguably the best part of his game.

Osi is good in this arena, but as far as chasing RBs down, there's none better in the NFL than Peppers, Michael Pittman and Emmitt Smith I'm sure will agree.

As will Reggie Bush who he ran down toady.

Oh and from the looks of things Peppers is getting healthy, 0 Sacks but he was every where today with a monster blocked FG and key Pass defense on second and 10 on the saints final drive.