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Moses
10-11-2007, 02:53 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3056630

Interesting article. Thoughts? Your own lists?

Jughead10
10-11-2007, 03:09 PM
I don't see what the big deal is with Dwight Freeney. He should be in the group with Roy Williams and not where he is.

Shiver
10-11-2007, 03:26 PM
That was a very good read. Things I liked:

Tony Gonzalez, TE, Chiefs
Player: "They are not as creative as they were. Herm Edwards has sucked the life out of that offense." 2. Adalius Thomas, LB, Patriots
Scout: "He gives them versatility, but he's not a great rusher. He's a straight-line guy, a strider, not a young Junior Seau with bend. He gets cut and he's on the ground quite a bit. There's a lot of hype with this guy and I don't see it."

CC.SD
10-11-2007, 04:25 PM
Gates has been pretty much unstoppable this year. It's really the only thing I like Norv for so far; Cam let Gates disappear too much.

ShutDwn
10-11-2007, 04:47 PM
Gates has been pretty much unstoppable this year. It's really the only thing I like Norv for so far; Cam let Gates disappear too much.

Gates and the coaching staff have been on a mission this year. He scares me.

fenikz
10-11-2007, 05:04 PM
Adrian Wilson should definitely be on this list, imagine the number he would put up if he was unaccounted for

Moses
10-11-2007, 05:08 PM
Adrian Wilson should definitely be on this list, imagine the number he would put up if he was unaccounted for

12. Adrian Wilson, S, Cardinals
Scout: "I would not change the plan for any safety because of the nature of the position. Wilson is a solid, but not spectacular pro. I give very few safeties top grades, but would he start for 28 of 32 teams? Yeah. Good pro."

He is on a list...

remix 6
10-11-2007, 05:16 PM
That was a very good read. Things I liked:

why do u like the negative on Thomas? If you've watched him..you'd see more side to side then straight line speed. His INT and deflections were quickness and reading the play. not running straight to make plays. hes our leading tackler and overrated how so? Hes covered extremely well..played the run very well and he had a pick 6. Teams havent run up the middle or right side..its been left(offenses's left) at Green/Colvin and were still a top 5-10 run defense even though we've missed tackles. oh and hes a very good pass rusher...playing inside though he hasnt show cased it.

scottyboy
10-11-2007, 05:18 PM
why do u like the negative on Thomas? If you've watched him..you'd see more side to side then straight line speed. His INT and deflections were quickness and reading the play. not running straight to make plays. hes our leading tackler and overrated how so? Hes covered extremely well..played the run very well and he had a pick 6. Teams havent run up the middle or right side..its been left(offenses's left) at Green/Colvin and were still a top 5-10 run defense even though we've missed tackles.

i didnt read that, and dont have to, to know that is says

"Blah blah blah, Patriots do nothing wrong ever and are the bestest thing ever. We didnt cheat, it wasnt wrong"

thule
10-11-2007, 05:19 PM
They are missing some QB's. Obviously Michael Vick was one of the most gameplanned players ever. But now that he is not around it's not dead. Vince Young is probably the most gameplanned QB for his feet. But you still have guys like Tony Romo that you must keep in the pocket because of their abillity to destroy you outside of the pocket.

Shiver
10-11-2007, 05:22 PM
They are missing some QB's. Obviously Michael Vick was one of the most gameplanned players ever. But now that he is not around it's not dead. Vince Young is probably the most gameplanned QB for his feet. But you still have guys like Tony Romo that you must keep in the pocket because of their abillity to destroy you outside of the pocket.

If I interpreted what this article was about I think this has more to do with adjusting your scheme and mixing up coverages rather than just telling your D-Lineman to "mush rush." I don't think there is a team in the NFL worried about mixing up coverages to confuse Vince Young as a passer.

thule
10-11-2007, 05:30 PM
If I interpreted what this article was about I think this has more to do with adjusting your scheme and mixing up coverages rather than just telling your D-Lineman to "mush rush." I don't think there is a team in the NFL worried about mixing up coverages to confuse Vince Young as a passer.

If this is the case which it must be I'd definately understand. By picking the two smartest QB's on the field it really makes sense. If I had to add another QB to gameplan for THIS YEAR.

It would be Brett Farve...he is seemingly has an audible everyplay. I would show something and play something different. With the routes he has been throwing effective this year...I would be showing my LB's blitzing and dropping them wide on the outside to take away the quick slant that is almost automatic in Green Bay this year.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
10-11-2007, 05:46 PM
definitely a good read.

love the Roy Williams insight

no love
10-11-2007, 07:04 PM
Gates and the coaching staff have been on a mission this year. He scares me.

This should have been Vernon Davis. Damn Norv for leaving us in the cold.

And as far as Adalius goes. He is absolutely a great player because he is good at everything, but I don't think he is so dominant in any one aspect that requires the team to game plan around him. I don't think his passrush is anything dominant (ie. he is no Merriman) but he can certainly consistently get good pressure against a TE or a Back. I can't even tell whether he is amazing at pass coverage because the Pats scheme is so good, he certainly has the speed for it, I don't know about the agility, ever time I've seen him play he seems like a downhill player.

Teams don't have to have a game plan for him, but they need to know where he is.

ShutDwn
10-11-2007, 07:44 PM
This should have been Vernon Davis. Damn Norv for leaving us in the cold.

And as far as Adalius goes. He is absolutely a great player because he is good at everything, but I don't think he is so dominant in any one aspect that requires the team to game plan around him. I don't think his passrush is anything dominant (ie. he is no Merriman) but he can certainly consistently get good pressure against a TE or a Back. I can't even tell whether he is amazing at pass coverage because the Pats scheme is so good, he certainly has the speed for it, I don't know about the agility, ever time I've seen him play he seems like a downhill player.

Teams don't have to have a game plan for him, but they need to know where he is.

Good point about Davis', that sucks a lot for them.

Thomas has never not played in a great scheme.

Ravens1991
10-11-2007, 08:08 PM
I was surprised to read under Troy Polumalu

"Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu have a far greater impact on the game than any corner, and it's not even close."


I was glad to see Ray on the list, I agree with what they said about the Ravens players and their rankings.

OzTitan
10-11-2007, 08:49 PM
It was a pretty good article but when was it written, 2005? There's no way teams don't scheme for Vince Young to a level it isn't worthy of mention, just ask the Jags week 1 and how Mike Peterson basically spied every snap. It was half the reason running up the middle was such a breeze.

Don Vito
10-11-2007, 09:39 PM
Adailus Thomas has been playing well this year, he just hasn't racked up great stats because he has some other talented defenders around him in that front 7. He doesn't need to make every play, he is in NE to take care of his responsibilty and make plays when they come his way. He has played pretty well this season.

I find it hard to believe Boldin is not on there. He will run through or run by pretty much everyone on the field.

Vince Young is the definition of frusturating, he will beat you with his legs or his arm when you think you have him beat. He must be on there.

The Unseen
10-11-2007, 09:43 PM
I find it hard to believe Boldin is not on there. He will run through or run by pretty much everyone on the field.

Under Underrated:

"2. Anquan Boldin, WR, Cardinals
Scout: "Larry Fitzgerald (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6762) will catch the ball at 15 yards and get 18. Boldin will catch it at 15 and get 25 or 30."

MaxV
10-11-2007, 09:48 PM
Under Underrated:

"2. Anquan Boldin, WR, Cardinals
Scout: "Larry Fitzgerald (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6762) will catch the ball at 15 yards and get 18. Boldin will catch it at 15 and get 25 or 30."

Not bad for a WR who ran his 40s at 4.7-4.8 range at the combine.

Don Vito
10-11-2007, 09:57 PM
Under Underrated:

"2. Anquan Boldin, WR, Cardinals
Scout: "Larry Fitzgerald (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6762) will catch the ball at 15 yards and get 18. Boldin will catch it at 15 and get 25 or 30."

My bad, still, I think he is the top tier of playmakers in this league. He will run through or run by most defenders. His strength-speed combination is outrageous.

Nitschke-Hawk
10-11-2007, 11:53 PM
I definitely like the idea of the lists and the choices, I'm just surprised there isn't a Packer on any of the lists.

neko4
10-12-2007, 12:17 AM
If this is the case which it must be I'd definately understand. By picking the two smartest QB's on the field it really makes sense. If I had to add another QB to gameplan for THIS YEAR.

It would be Brett Farve...he is seemingly has an audible everyplay. I would show something and play something different. With the routes he has been throwing effective this year...I would be showing my LB's blitzing and dropping them wide on the outside to take away the quick slant that is almost automatic in Green Bay this year.
Here's a good example
http://youtube.com/watch?v=m8lKJ1gMbPg

bantx
10-12-2007, 01:14 AM
why do u like the negative on Thomas? If you've watched him..you'd see more side to side then straight line speed. His INT and deflections were quickness and reading the play. not running straight to make plays. hes our leading tackler and overrated how so? Hes covered extremely well..played the run very well and he had a pick 6. Teams havent run up the middle or right side..its been left(offenses's left) at Green/Colvin and were still a top 5-10 run defense even though we've missed tackles. oh and hes a very good pass rusher...playing inside though he hasnt show cased it.

god if one person talks down on the pats u can always rely on remix to back up the perfect patriots, every team gets criticize.

ShutDwn
10-12-2007, 06:38 AM
It was a pretty good article but when was it written, 2005? There's no way teams don't scheme for Vince Young to a level it isn't worthy of mention, just ask the Jags week 1 and how Mike Peterson basically spied every snap. It was half the reason running up the middle was such a breeze.

Putting a spy on a QB is not a scheme buster. That is normal defense against a running QB. Putting in 4 defensive ends to rush the passer like the Broncos did against Peyton is so much bigger.

Modano
10-12-2007, 06:54 AM
5. Julius Jones, RB, Cowboys
Scout: "Marion Barber is the guy you worry about there. He runs to hurt people. He's like a linebacker playing running back, a tough runner who gives that team more of an identity than Jones ever will. A great fit for their line."


And still we give the ball to Julius and he just put us in a 3rd & long situation most of the times.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2007, 09:15 AM
I think Adalius Thomas is a scheme buster, and I personally think theyre underrating him.

His versatility makes you account for him everywhere he lines up. And he's been very productive. Look at the impact he's had on Baltimore's defense. It clearly lost a step without him.

And look at his impact on NE's defense. Theyve clearly gained a step with him.

He can play ILB or OLB, and that versatility makes it difficult for offenses to account for him and Vrabel when they line up next to eachother. One or the other can come on any play, or even both, and they sell it well, so I definately think they underrate him as a scheme buster.

He can play all 4 3-4 LB positions, he can play all 3 4-3 LB positions, as well as 4-3 DE, even DT in a nickel. How is that not a scheme buster?

OzTitan
10-12-2007, 10:03 AM
Putting a spy on a QB is not a scheme buster. That is normal defense against a running QB. Putting in 4 defensive ends to rush the passer like the Broncos did against Peyton is so much bigger.

And how many QB's in the NFL right now do you think has defenses designating spies before the 1st snap of the game?

You could degrade pretty much any measure of containing an opposing QB to "that's normal for that type of player" like you just did. When your QB is responsible for a defense giving up its middle run stopping game, maybe it's just me - I dunno - but I call that a scheme changer.

Moses
10-12-2007, 10:24 AM
I think Adalius Thomas is a scheme buster, and I personally think theyre underrating him.

His versatility makes you account for him everywhere he lines up. And he's been very productive. Look at the impact he's had on Baltimore's defense. It clearly lost a step without him.

And look at his impact on NE's defense. Theyve clearly gained a step with him.

He can play ILB or OLB, and that versatility makes it difficult for offenses to account for him and Vrabel when they line up next to eachother. One or the other can come on any play, or even both, and they sell it well, so I definately think they underrate him as a scheme buster.

He can play all 4 3-4 LB positions, he can play all 3 4-3 LB positions, as well as 4-3 DE, even DT in a nickel. How is that not a scheme buster?

Adalius Thomas is a good player, I'm not debating that. But to say he is a scheme changer, I think that is excessive. Teams don't gameplan for him. It's that simple. They don't say: How are we going to stop Adalius Thomas from hurting us this week?

bigbluedefense
10-12-2007, 11:00 AM
Adalius Thomas is a good player, I'm not debating that. But to say he is a scheme changer, I think that is excessive. Teams don't gameplan for him. It's that simple. They don't say: How are we going to stop Adalius Thomas from hurting us this week?

To me, a schemebuster is a guy who makes you account for him on every play. He requires extra attention and youre always seeing where he's lining up and what he's doing.

To me, Thomas is that kind of player. Because of his versatility and ability to drop back or rush the passer out of multiple positions in the LB core and Dline, he becomes a guy you have to account for on every play. Do teams scheme around him to stop him? To a certain extent yes. Id say he has just as much impact as any ILB in this game in that regards.

Take for example, him vs Brian Urlacher. Now against Urlacher, you adjust your run blocking schemes to account for him, and on pass plays, you try to run plays designed away from his area of the field, which is primarily the deep middle. So he clearly has an impact.

But now let's look at Thomas. On any given play, you have to account for him as a guy in coverage, or as a passrusher. And because you don't know when he's doing what, you have to prepare for both on every play. Someone has to pick him up on the blitz, so you adjust your protection for him, plus he can drop in any zone or cover the TE on man, so you have to adjust for that too.

And this is the tricky part of Thomas. Because he can do so much, you can't necessarily gameplan around him. In coverage, you know Urlacher is covering the deep middle 80% of the time. Thomas in Bellichick's scheme will cover the flats, the deep middle, an intermediate zone, man up with the TE, he can move around in that LB core and play different positions etc. That kind of versatility and unpredictability drives OCs nuts, and surely effects how you run your offense. And we didn't even break down how he effects a pass rush.

If you look at the NE front 7, what makes them so tough is the fact that they have damn near 4 guys that require this type of accountability (Thomas, Vrabel, Seymour, and Colvin). And that amazing versatility out of their front is why they have the best front 7 in football. Thomas, id say, is their best LB in that front 7, so Id definately say he's a schemechanger. He's not the only one in that front that is though.

Im not sure if I made any real points here, lol. Maybe I just rambled on about nothing, but hopefully you catch my drift.

Moses
10-12-2007, 11:02 AM
To me, a schemebuster is a guy who makes you account for him on every play. He requires extra attention and youre always seeing where he's lining up and what he's doing.

To me, Thomas is that kind of player. Because of his versatility and ability to drop back or rush the passer out of multiple positions in the LB core and Dline, he becomes a guy you have to account for on every play. Do teams scheme around him to stop him? To a certain extent yes. Id say he has just as much impact as any ILB in this game in that regards.

Take for example, him vs Brian Urlacher. Now against Urlacher, you adjust your run blocking schemes to account for him, and on pass plays, you try to run plays designed away from his area of the field, which is primarily the deep middle. So he clearly has an impact.

But now let's look at Thomas. On any given play, you have to account for him as a guy in coverage, or as a passrusher. And because you don't know when he's doing what, you have to prepare for both on every play. Someone has to pick him up on the blitz, so you adjust your protection for him, plus he can drop in any zone or cover the TE on man, so you have to adjust for that too.

And this is the tricky part of Thomas. Because he can do so much, you can't necessarily gameplan around him. In coverage, you know Urlacher is covering the deep middle 80% of the time. Thomas in Bellichick's scheme will cover the flats, the deep middle, an intermediate zone, man up with the TE, he can move around in that LB core and play different positions etc. That kind of versatility and unpredictability drives OCs nuts, and surely effects how you run your offense. And we didn't even break down how he effects a pass rush.

If you look at the NE front 7, what makes them so tough is the fact that they have damn near 4 guys that require this type of accountability (Thomas, Vrabel, Seymour, and Colvin). And that amazing versatility out of their front is why they have the best front 7 in football. Thomas, id say, is their best LB in that front 7, so Id definately say he's a schemechanger. He's not the only one in that front that is though.

Im not sure if I made any real points here, lol. Maybe I just rambled on about nothing, but hopefully you catch my drift.

I don't think being versatile makes you "game planned" for. Teams do those kinds of things for every linebacker in the league. A guy that needs game planning is somebody who does something (or a few things) so well that you HAVE to account for him or he will destroy you. There are few defensive players that earn this acclaim, and I definitely don't see Thomas as one of them.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2007, 11:18 AM
I don't think being versatile makes you "game planned" for. Teams do those kinds of things for every linebacker in the league. A guy that needs game planning is somebody who does something (or a few things) so well that you HAVE to account for him or he will destroy you. There are few defensive players that earn this acclaim, and I definitely don't see Thomas as one of them.

If thats the case, only literally 3 players deserve to be on that list then.

Peyton Manning
Randy Moss
Shawne Merriman

Thats it.

Moses
10-12-2007, 11:29 AM
If thats the case, only literally 3 players deserve to be on that list then.

Peyton Manning
Randy Moss
Shawne Merriman

Thats it.

Antonio Gates is definitely game planned for. You can't cover him like you can any other tight end. I think an argument for Tomlinson, Westbrook, and Bush can also be made, just because of their pass catching abilities. Schemes will likely be altered to have a player constantly shadowing said player.

And the list changes every year. Michael Vick is likely the most game planned for player of all-time. Guys like Marshall Faulk were definitely game planned for.

Shiver
10-12-2007, 12:56 PM
I definitely thought Adalius Thomas was a surprise pick, but it's always fascinating to me to read the take of NFL GMs and scouts, you get takes that are unconventional. Unlike the same jargon from the media. I am alright with information that challenges the accepted stance on player performance.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2007, 01:26 PM
Antonio Gates is definitely game planned for. You can't cover him like you can any other tight end. I think an argument for Tomlinson, Westbrook, and Bush can also be made, just because of their pass catching abilities. Schemes will likely be altered to have a player constantly shadowing said player.

And the list changes every year. Michael Vick is likely the most game planned for player of all-time. Guys like Marshall Faulk were definitely game planned for.

Its hard to say, because theres a lot of players gameplanned for. Even on the bad teams, the better players on that team are gameplanned for. So its whatever.

Gates is amazing. But he doesn't get any different treatment from Gonzalez or Winslow. They both receive the same treatment. Gates just does a better job of beating it.

But in terms of scheme, all 3 effect it the same way. Thats why I think the whole topic is slightly flawed.

Theres only a handfull of guys who truely change the way teams scheme.

BlindSite
10-12-2007, 06:07 PM
I was surprised to read under Troy Polumalu

"Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu have a far greater impact on the game than any corner, and it's not even close."


I was glad to see Ray on the list, I agree with what they said about the Ravens players and their rankings.

Troy Polamalu is still the NFL's most overrated player imo.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2007, 10:54 PM
Troy Polamalu is still the NFL's most overrated player imo.

I disagree. He can blitz effectively, support against the run, cover the TE, play a deep zone, what more do you want?

He's also a perfect fit at XBacker for that ZB scheme. He wouldn't be as good in a different scheme of course, but thats the case with alot of players in this league.

BlindSite
10-13-2007, 12:07 AM
He can blitz off the edge but doesn't consistently beat tight ends or running backs when they pick him up, he can play against the run, but struggles to shed some blocks and in deep passes he's often caught out of position hawking.

He's good, but he's no where near Adrian Wilson or for that matter Ed Reed.

no love
10-13-2007, 03:58 AM
He can blitz off the edge but doesn't consistently beat tight ends or running backs when they pick him up, he can play against the run, but struggles to shed some blocks and in deep passes he's often caught out of position hawking.

He's good, but he's no where near Adrian Wilson or for that matter Ed Reed.

He doesn't consistently beat te's or backs...he is a SAFETY. If he could CONSISTENTLY beat a TE or a Back then they could just blitz him every single down because they know that he would beat his man and get pressure on the qb. And a lot of linebackers struggle to shed blocks too.

The reason the team uses so many different blitz packages is to create confusion so that the back or the te does not pick up the free blitzer, they don't expect him to beat te's or backs. He blitzes off of the edge, in the middle and delayed, they used him in so many ways that saying pointing out a weakness in his game and ignoring all the other ways the teams uses him

Find me a safety in this league that can consistently beat te's or backs.

Maybe Adrian Wilson is better at rushing the passer and Ed Reed is better at playing the ball and gambling on coverages. But to say he is no where near those two is absurd. He has more sacks (4) than Reed in the past 3 years and more interceptions (10) than Wilson and he has just as many pd's as Wilson (30) and just a few less than Reed. And he probably creates just as much confusion for the offense if not more with his constant motion.

JT Jag
10-17-2007, 04:10 PM
John Henderson and Marcus Stroud force offensive coordinators to gameplan around them. Literally.

DaBears9654
10-18-2007, 12:46 PM
I have comments on a couple of Bears on the list.
7. Brian Urlacher, LB, Bears
Player: "It's simply his size. He is so big in there that you change your pass game."
Whoever said that doesn't know what he's talking about. Sure, Url's 6-4, 260 or somewhere in that neighborhood, but he is probably the fastest LB there is (or at least top 5) and about the only thing he can't do all that well is shed blocks. And that has improved under Lovie Smith.
11. Devin Hester, PR/KR, Bears
Coach: "Why do people kick to him? Kick that [football] out of bounds. I'd rather give up 10 yards in field position because the ball went out of bounds on a bad angle instead of him returning one for a touchdown."
For my comments on this one, see this post (http://weblog.xanga.com/wyo_justin/621164265/kicking-away-from-great-return-specialists.html) in my blog.

BlindSite
10-19-2007, 03:59 AM
He doesn't consistently beat te's or backs...he is a SAFETY. If he could CONSISTENTLY beat a TE or a Back then they could just blitz him every single down because they know that he would beat his man and get pressure on the qb. And a lot of linebackers struggle to shed blocks too.

The reason the team uses so many different blitz packages is to create confusion so that the back or the te does not pick up the free blitzer, they don't expect him to beat te's or backs. He blitzes off of the edge, in the middle and delayed, they used him in so many ways that saying pointing out a weakness in his game and ignoring all the other ways the teams uses him

Find me a safety in this league that can consistently beat te's or backs.

Maybe Adrian Wilson is better at rushing the passer and Ed Reed is better at playing the ball and gambling on coverages. But to say he is no where near those two is absurd. He has more sacks (4) than Reed in the past 3 years and more interceptions (10) than Wilson and he has just as many pd's as Wilson (30) and just a few less than Reed. And he probably creates just as much confusion for the offense if not more with his constant motion.

No one is anywhere near Adrian Wilson in the NFL, no one.

Besides, which. Maybe you're not familiar so I'll say this slowly.

Safety's aren't meant to be the big play makers on defense, they're there to prevent big plays and support other positions. Everything else is gravy. I don't care if polamalu has twice as many interceptions as adrian wilson. He'll still get beat and caught out of position twice as much.

Jakey
10-19-2007, 05:49 AM
^ Adrian Wilson and Troy polamalu might aswell be playing completely different positions...they get used completely differently. Troy is used as as a decoy to confuse the quaterback on most plays, so the plays he does make are because he has such good instincts, speed and knowledge of the game. For instance Troy would line up at the line of scrimmige (fake the blitz) and still manage to get back and knock the pass down 20 yards down field... there is no way Adrian Wilson could do that. Wilson is probably the better conventional safety, but Troy isn't a conventional safety... so i think its unfair to compare them in that way.

jsagan77
10-19-2007, 10:20 AM
NO SEAN TAYLOR!!!

I bet he'll be one of the front runners on there next year now that Landry is next to him. No one will throw his way and when they do, it will be an int... he has such sick range that it's scary..

BlindSite
10-20-2007, 09:03 PM
I'm not saying Troy is by any measure bad, I just don't think he's on the same level as Adrian Wilson and I'll leave it at that.

Jakey
10-21-2007, 08:47 AM
I'll leave it as this... Troys' better.

Moses
10-21-2007, 11:47 AM
I'll leave it as this... Troys' better.

Wow, awesome post.

Geo
10-21-2007, 11:53 AM
I know I'm convinced.

Flyboy
10-21-2007, 11:54 AM
I know I'm convinced.

So deep yet... so concise.

Moses
10-21-2007, 11:55 AM
So deep yet... so concise.

I'm surprised the mods haven't moved it to the Hall of Fame section yet.

Geo
10-21-2007, 11:58 AM
Knowledge comes to us,
like clear water from a spring,
enriching our lives.

Jakey
10-21-2007, 01:44 PM
Thanks guys, i was thinking the same thing :p

p.s I did explain my arguement earlier in the thread.