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Scott Wright
10-16-2007, 05:20 AM
In my blog today (which you can read at http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/blog/wrightstuff.html) I talked about how at this point I don't see any of the quarterback prospects, including Brohm, Woodson and Ryan, as "elite" prospects.

I thought it might be an interesting discussion to see if you guys thought any or all of them were franchise-type guys and why or why not.

Discuss amongst yourselves...

JDB7821
10-16-2007, 05:40 AM
I posted a thread about it, but how do you see Ainge stacking up against these guys? Is he a 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder, possibility to jump into the late 1st? What are the negatives on him?

Crow
10-16-2007, 05:46 AM
So how far below last year's top 2 are this year's crop? At this stage, of course.

SuperKevin
10-16-2007, 08:13 AM
I agree none of them may be "elite" QBs but they can all be very good QBs

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 08:23 AM
I think Woodson is pushing on elite. When all is said and done, I think he is a top 5 pick.

Brent
10-16-2007, 08:25 AM
I am hoping that Woodson can play/workout-warrior his way into the being the top QB.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 09:16 AM
Weird how you talk about Brennan being a 2nd round pick in your blog, but a few days ago when you released your mock draft you had him going in the 1st round. Did the game against San Jose State set him back a little for you?

Scotty D
10-16-2007, 10:38 AM
I think Woodson is becoming elite. Two big wins against Louisville and LSU with 4th quarter drives. I think he has seperated himself from Brohm. His pocket prescence and "calmness" are things that stand out to me.

Geo
10-16-2007, 10:44 AM
The more I think about it, the more I think there's a gap after the top three (Woodson, Ryan, Brohm) myself. All three guys are great quarterback prospects (Top 15/20 picks) in my mind. Elite? Probably not, but then I'm not 100 percent sure I'd call Darren McFadden an elite runningback prospect, the more I think about that. Not that that changes McFadden being the top runningback on the board, you understand.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 10:53 AM
I think Woodson is pushing on elite. When all is said and done, I think he is a top 5 pick.

The way he played against LSU impressed me. If he gets the win against Florida imo there is no doubt that he is a top 5 pick.

Mr. Stiller
10-16-2007, 10:54 AM
I still think Ainge may be the best QB of this bunch.

Addict
10-16-2007, 11:13 AM
Ainge definately has the nicest-sounding name.

princefielder28
10-16-2007, 11:15 AM
I think that Colt Brennan will be the best QB to come of this draft class. Woodson, Brohm, and Ryan will all be starters for a long time for various organizations, but I think Brennan is the one who has a chance to be a Pro Bowl caliber player. For me he has the "IT" factor. He just looks, acts, plays like he has the confidence and ability to do anything. He makes bad deicisions at times, but he can make so many throws and he gets the job done. The other QBs are very nice prospects, but they don't bring to the table what Colt Brennan does.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 11:55 AM
I think that Colt Brennan will be the best QB to come of this draft class. Woodson, Brohm, and Ryan will all be starters for a long time for various organizations, but I think Brennan is the one who has a chance to be a Pro Bowl caliber player. For me he has the "IT" factor. He just looks, acts, plays like he has the confidence and ability to do anything. He makes bad deicisions at times, but he can make so many throws and he gets the job done. The other QBs are very nice prospects, but they don't bring to the table what Colt Brennan does.

The ability to do anything against the worst schedule in all of college football.

Mr. Stiller
10-16-2007, 12:08 PM
Ainge definately has the nicest-sounding name.

He has the size, arm strength and accuracy to be a solid QB.

If I'm a team that needs to fill some spots (Atlanta here's looking to you) I go OL 1 and 2a then grab Ainge at 2b. He's going to be a good one.

CARDIAC CAT 7
10-16-2007, 12:38 PM
I think Woodson is an elite QB
- Can make every NFL throw
- Calm in the toughest situation
- Makes players around him better
- Doesnt make stupid throws
- Able to scramble to make plays when the play looks dead
- Size
What else could you ask for in a QB???

soybean
10-16-2007, 12:43 PM
The ability to do anything against the worst schedule in all of college football.

that's not his fault.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 12:58 PM
that's not his fault.

I guess its not his fault that he threw 5 interceptions against Idaho and 4 against San Jose State either.

Scotty D
10-16-2007, 01:14 PM
I guess its not his fault that he threw 5 interceptions against Idaho and 4 against San Jose State either.

I think its RyanLeaf's new goal to demolish all the Colt Brennan bandwagons that even try to get started. hahaha

Geo
10-16-2007, 01:18 PM
Although I can't really come up a 4th quarterback on my board right now, I doubt it will be Colt Brennan. Honestly, I'm becoming less enamored with him by the day.

Then again, I didn't have Kevin Kolb (another system quarterback with a lot of college starts to his credit) as my 4th quarterback last year which is how he ended up as a draft selection by the Eagles early in the 2nd round. As the saying goes with respect to the draft, all it takes is one team.

Moses
10-16-2007, 01:20 PM
What are the chances that Colt Brennan falls like our good friend Omar Jacobs from Bowling Green? :D

steelernation77
10-16-2007, 01:27 PM
What are the chances that Colt Brennan falls like our good friend Omar Jacobs from Bowling Green? :D

Who then proceeded to get cut.

Moses
10-16-2007, 01:28 PM
Who then proceeded to get cut.

Multiple times.

He was selected in the fifth round of the 2006 NFL Draft, with the 164th overall pick, by the Pittsburgh Steelers. At the end of the preseason, he was sent to the practice squad. Jacobs was released from the practice squad and cut from the team following training camp. On November 21, 2006, he was signed to the Philadelphia Eagles practice squad and cut on January 3, 2007. On February 12, 2007, he was signed to the Kansas City Chiefs and allocated to NFL Europe where he was to play for the Berlin Thunder. However, prior to the start of the season, Jacobs was injured and spent the entire season on Injured Reserve. He was cut by the Chiefs on 09/02/07.

Mr. Stiller
10-16-2007, 01:30 PM
Who then proceeded to get cut.

I still didn't like that decision. Had that been in 05 or 07 Omar could have Supplanted St. Pierre.

Ben smashes his head off a Buick, they bring back St. Pierre. Omar was the best of the 3 guy vying for #3 in the pre-season (St. Pierre, Omar and that guy thats on Zona's PS now).

He didn't have Zip, but man he could put that ball anywhere and time it perfectly.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 01:42 PM
I think its RyanLeaf's new goal to demolish all the Colt Brennan bandwagons that even try to get started. hahaha

I just dont see how he gets all this hype. People want to rank him so high and put him so high on their draft board. Then he throws 9 interceptions against 2 terrible teams. Im tired of hearing its not their fault they have a terrible SOS. Okay I agree with that, but if he has 9 picks against those 2 teams, what would have happened if they would of actually been playing legit teams? Will Graham Harrell who is identical in size and weight of Colt Brennan get this much exposure next year? Graham Harrells numbers: 31 touchdowns and 3 interceptions. Colt Brennans numbers: 20 touchdowns and 10 interceptions.

JF4
10-16-2007, 01:57 PM
I just dont see how he gets all this hype. People want to rank him so high and put him so high on their draft board. Then he throws 9 interceptions against 2 terrible teams. Im tired of hearing its not their fault they have a terrible SOS. Okay I agree with that, but if he has 9 picks against those 2 teams, what would have happened if they would of actually been playing legit teams? Will Graham Harrell who is identical in size and weight of Colt Brennan get this much exposure next year? Graham Harrells numbers: 31 touchdowns and 3 interceptions. Colt Brennans numbers: 20 touchdowns and 10 interceptions.

I agree that he's a overhyped but probably not to the extent you do.

Where he get's drafted will really reflect how he does in Hawai's bowl game and the Senior Bowl. That will be the only elite competition he faces this year.

Geo
10-16-2007, 02:09 PM
Excellent point about the Senior Bowl, JF.

It will be interesting to see who attends the Senior Bowl this year, Brennan included. It's close right now among the top three, they could use the opportunity to further help their stock.

I wonder if, in retrospect, Brady Quinn not participating in the Senior Bowl hurt him in any way. I vaguely remember him nursing an injury? that might have been more convenient than anything.

Addict
10-16-2007, 02:09 PM
about the Colt Brennan thing: yes he's overhyped and he does have his stats inflated, but c'mon folks, people have off-days, and he's only human.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 02:20 PM
about the Colt Brennan thing: yes he's overhyped and he does have his stats inflated, but c'mon folks, people have off-days, and he's only human.

5 interceptions against Idaho, and 4 against San Jose State. I understand off- days, but numbers like that against those teams are unacceptable for any QB. Especially for Colt Brennan the "Next Tony Romo"... lol

Addict
10-16-2007, 02:22 PM
5 interceptions against Idaho, and 4 against San Jose State. I understand off- days, but numbers like that against those teams are unacceptable for any QB. Especially for Colt Brennan the "Next Tony Romo"... lol

you mean Tony Romo... leads the NFC in interceptions Tony Romo?

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 02:24 PM
you mean Tony Romo... leads the NFC in interceptions Tony Romo?

Yup that guy. I just dont see it in Colt.

Addict
10-16-2007, 02:28 PM
Yup that guy. I just dont see it in Colt.

nobody saw it in Romo either, that's why he went undrafted.

lemme be clear I'm not a 'omg Colt 1st overall' guy, I'm just saying, give the guy a break. He's not the prospect many are saying he is, but he's not as poor as his stats were.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 02:30 PM
nobody saw it in Romo either, that's why he went undrafted.

lemme be clear I'm not a 'omg Colt 1st overall' guy, I'm just saying, give the guy a break. He's not the prospect many are saying he is, but he's not as poor as his stats were.

So does that mean hes not as great as what his career stats will show at the end of the year?

Addict
10-16-2007, 02:31 PM
So does that mean hes not as great as what his career stats will show at the end of the year?

if he was he'd be the greatest college QB ever, bar none, which he obviously isn't.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 02:35 PM
if he was he'd be the greatest college QB ever, bar none, which he obviously isn't.

As much as I hate to say it being a Notre Dame fan.... Matt Leinart is probably the greatest college QB ever.

Addict
10-16-2007, 02:38 PM
As much as I hate to say it being a Notre Dame fan.... Matt Leinart is probably the greatest college QB ever.

carson palmer was pretty decent as well.

Leinart's future is now in hands of a guy who pulled him every 10 seconds trying to implement some kind of 2 qb system... not good.

plus, if you like ND you should be pleased to see the line that is to protect him is shaping up pretty well.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 02:41 PM
carson palmer was pretty decent as well.

Leinart's future is now in hands of a guy who pulled him every 10 seconds trying to implement some kind of 2 qb system... not good.

plus, if you like ND you should be pleased to see the line that is to protect him is shaping up pretty well.

Well im saying Leinart was a great college QB not NFL. Notre Dames line definitely blows, but Evan Sharpley shocks the world and beats USC this weekend.... Then I wake up and realize that will never happen.

Addict
10-16-2007, 02:44 PM
Well im saying Leinart was a great college QB not NFL. Notre Dames line definitely blows, but Evan Sharpley shocks the world and beats USC this weekend.... Then I wake up and realize that will never happen.

don't worry, with Weis' recrutees ND will be soaring pretty soon.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 02:44 PM
Leaf and I are on a crusade to demolish every single Colt Brennan bandwagon out there. He got to this thread before I did though, so I'll allow him to do the damage! ;)

Sniper
10-16-2007, 02:47 PM
don't worry, with Weis' recrutees ND will be soaring pretty soon.

But Weis hasn't proven **** as a coach yet, so we don't know if they will be. I mean, 4 of "Charlie's guys" have left the program mid-season this year! That's crazy.

Back on topic, Colt Brennan sucks.

I really think Woodson is an elite QB, and Brohm is on the cusp. Ryan is a nice player, but nothing special. Woodson's got a gun and just has those intangibles you can't identify, sort of like VY. The man wins games he shouldn't.

Addict
10-16-2007, 02:48 PM
Leaf and I are on a crusade to demolish every single Colt Brennan bandwagon out there. He got to this thread before I did though, so I'll allow him to do the damage! ;)

hahahaha

hey isn't Tim Tebow a jr. as well this year?

SuperKevin
10-16-2007, 02:49 PM
hahahaha

hey isn't Tim Tebow a jr. as well this year?

No he's a true sophomore

Moses
10-16-2007, 02:49 PM
carson palmer was pretty decent as well.

Leinart's future is now in hands of a guy who pulled him every 10 seconds trying to implement some kind of 2 qb system... not good.

plus, if you like ND you should be pleased to see the line that is to protect him is shaping up pretty well.

Palmer was only dominant for one season if I remember correctly.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 02:49 PM
hahahaha

hey isn't Tim Tebow a jr. as well this year?

No, he's a sophomore. And a damn good one at that.

Addict
10-16-2007, 02:52 PM
No, he's a sophomore. And a damn good one at that.

#1 to beat in one or two years?

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 02:52 PM
But Weis hasn't proven **** as a coach yet, so we don't know if they will be. I mean, 4 of "Charlie's guys" have left the program mid-season this year! That's crazy.

Back on topic, Colt Brennan sucks.

I really think Woodson is an elite QB, and Brohm is on the cusp. Ryan is a nice player, but nothing special. Woodson's got a gun and just has those intangibles you can't identify, sort of like VY. The man wins games he shouldn't.

Your a closet Notre Dame fan. Addict is right its only a matter of time until they are back on top. Everyone has down year. And if I recall Charlie brought Notre Dame to back to back BCS bowls.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 03:07 PM
Your a closet Notre Dame fan. Addict is right its only a matter of time until they are back on top. Everyone has down year. And if I recall Charlie brought Notre Dame to back to back BCS bowls.

For the last time, I am not a closet ND fan. It might be amusing to ponder that I am, but I can assuredly tell you I'm not. No "great" team goes 1-6 with 2-10 a possibility. Michigan goes 7-5, Ohio State goes 10-3, USC goes at worst 6-6 (pre-Petey). Yes, congratulations on backing into a BCS bowl you only got into because of a gimme clause that says because you were good 4,000 years ago, you can play in a BCS game. How'd those games work out for you anyway? I think Ohio State just passed the 700 yard mark, and JaMarcus Russell wanted to thank you for fattening his bank account for him.

Back on topic, Addict, I do think Tebow is the QB to beat. He'd got great size, zip on the ball, obviously good mobility. Some of his passes need more touch, but he's going to be an excellent QB. I'd think he'd benefit by coming out in '10, because people may question if it was Meyer's spread O that makes him (ala Alex Smith). This is also assuming Jimmy Clausen doesn't beat him out for the next 3 Heismans with his mythical 1:5 TD/INT ratio ;)

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 03:23 PM
No "great" team goes 1-6 with 2-10 a possibility. Michigan goes 7-5, Ohio State goes 10-3, USC goes at worst 6-6 (pre-Petey).

In 1991 USC went 3-8 3 years later they were in the cotton Bowl with an 8-3 record.

In 1962 Michigan went 2-7 and their only wins were against Army and Illinois, but guess what good old Bump Elliot led them to the Rose bowl 2 years later.

In 1959 Ohio State went 3-5-1 and 2 years later Woody Hayes went 8-0.

All great schools have down seasons. Notre Dame does not have a conference schedule so every year they are playing top teams like Michigan, USC, Boston College..etc and dont get them gimme wins like Navy... Oh wait nevermind, but in all seriousness. Notre Dame will be in the National Championship within the next 3 years bank on it.

Back to the discussion Brennan is overrated.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 03:29 PM
In 1991 USC went 3-8 3 years later they were in the cotton Bowl with an 8-3 record.

In 1962 Michigan went 2-7 and their only wins were against Army and Illinois, but guess what good old Bump Elliot led them to the Rose bowl 2 years later.

In 1959 Ohio State went 3-5-1 and 2 years later Woody Hayes went 8-0.

All great schools have down seasons. Notre Dame does not have a conference schedule so every year they are playing top teams like Michigan, USC, Boston College..etc and dont get them gimme wins like Navy... Oh wait nevermind, but in all seriousness. Notre Dame will be in the National Championship within the next 3 years bank on it.

Back to the discussion Brennan is overrated.

I meant recently, but I understand you only relating back to the late 50s and early 60s because that's the only time ND was ever consistently good and seems to be the only era ND fans live in ;) Ty Willingham>>>>>>>Charlie Weis

Brennan=Timmy Chang

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 03:31 PM
I meant recently, but I understand you only relating back to the late 50s and early 60s because that's the only time ND was ever consistently good and seems to be the only era ND fans live in ;) Ty Willingham>>>>>>>Charlie Weis

Brennan=Timmy Chang

Im sorry but Ty Willingham is not a better coach or a better recruiter then Charlie Weis. I have all the respect in the world for Willingham and find myself always watching Washington and wanting him to win. But Weis is a better fit in South Bend. Brennan=Kingsbury.

MaddHatter
10-16-2007, 03:35 PM
None of them strike me as Franchise QB's right out of the gate, like VY/Leinart/Cutler, but more of the type of QB's who should be brought in and sat for a year or two.

If Romo and Brady can become Franchise QBs though, anyone can

Sniper
10-16-2007, 03:53 PM
Im sorry but Ty Willingham is not a better coach or a better recruiter then Charlie Weis. I have all the respect in the world for Willingham and find myself always watching Washington and wanting him to win. But Weis is a better fit in South Bend. Brennan=Kingsbury.

You're right, according to 98% of ND fans not only is Ty Willingham the cause of ND's 1-6 start, he is also directly responsible for world hunger, 9/11, world illiteracy, AIDS, kiddie porn and Jimmy Clausen's 1:5 TD/INT ratio ;)

Wow, that got out of hand quickly. Brick killed a guy with a trident! ;) Anyway, Colt Brennan will need a sick Senior Bowl to start to quell thoughts that's he's merely a slightly better version of Timmy Chang/Kliff Kingsbury/whatever other system QB out there.

scrylla
10-16-2007, 04:00 PM
On top of what everyone else has said about Woodson let me throw this out there: He changed the play at the LOS 50 % of the time against LSU Saturday after reading their D. I think I read somewhere the average college QB does this 10-15 % of the time.

Shiver
10-16-2007, 05:28 PM
I think this QB class will be settled on the fields of Mobile, AL. The top three are very, very close in my estimation. Thus the Senior Bowl will be the tie-breaker.

Staubach12
10-16-2007, 05:43 PM
There's no elites in this class. Ryan is the best IMO, and I'd take him over Quinn just barely. It is close though... Past 3 years:

1. Jamarcus Russell
2. Jay Cutler
3. Matt Leinart
4. Vince Young
5. Matt Ryan
6. Brady Quinn
7. Andre Woodson
8. Brian Brohm
9. Colt Brennan
10. John Beck

Scott Wright
10-16-2007, 06:37 PM
Just a thought on the Notre Dame / Ty Willingham debate:

Ty had a great first class with Quinn and a ton of others but his next two classes were AWFUL. Literally the worst in Notre Dame history. In fact, poor recruiting is 90% of the reason Notre Dame is struggling this year because the 4th and 5th year guys who are supposed to be the core of the team are either buried on the depth chart or transferred out because they couldn't cut it. Even though Notre Dame is struggling on the field Weis is recruiting like a mad man and they have the #1 class in the nation right now.

I think Willingham is a great man and a very good coach but the job he did his last two years in South Bend was awful.

neko4
10-16-2007, 06:47 PM
Weird how you talk about Brennan being a 2nd round pick in your blog, but a few days ago when you released your mock draft you had him going in the 1st round. Did the game against San Jose State set him back a little for you?
While he had a bad game he brought his team back from a 2 TD deficit. I think his leadership ability is definitly up there and getting it done when it counts is what matters the most. If i remeber correctly, before John Elway's "Drive" his stats for the game were pretty poor. (I need to check that though)

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 07:23 PM
Just a thought on the Notre Dame / Ty Willingham debate:

Ty had a great first class with Quinn and a ton of others but his next two classes were AWFUL. Literally the worst in Notre Dame history. In fact, poor recruiting is 90% of the reason Notre Dame is struggling this year because the 4th and 5th year guys who are supposed to be the core of the team are either buried on the depth chart or transferred out because they couldn't cut it. Even though Notre Dame is struggling on the field Weis is recruiting like a mad man and they have the #1 class in the nation right now.

I think Willingham is a great man and a very good coach but the job he did his last two years in South Bend was awful.

This might be the first time in the 2 years I have been a member here that we have agreed on something.

princefielder28
10-16-2007, 08:13 PM
For those of you who think that Colt Brennan hasn't played anyone, how about Matt Ryan????

toonsterwu
10-16-2007, 08:16 PM
I'm too lazy to read through this thread, but the short of it is this - all along, I have said that I do not believe there is an elite QB in this class. Doesn't mean someone won't go high (top of this draft just is not pretty, and QB's get reached on anyways). The strength of the QB class, and this draft as a whole, is the depth in the 2nd and 3rd tiers of the draft, allowing for quality talent and/or good value to be found in the midrounds, potentially moreso than in recent years.

As for the top QB's, all of them have issues. I think most right now would place Woodson/Ryan/Brohm, in some order, as the top 3. While I think I still prefer Woodson, it would not surprise me if many had Ryan was on top right now (as I last mocked). That said, there's a lot of time to go and a lot of things to shake out, and it would not surprise me if the top 3 changed. For example, I think Erik Ainge (a discussed name in this thread), is putting together a good enough season that, if he finishes strong and has a good postseason, he could push the leading trio and arguably make a case to go quite high.

Here's what I'll end with - does it make more sense to go with one of the current top 3 guys early in the first, or to go with, say, a JD Booty in the 2nd/3rd? I think that's a tough question to answer, but I wouldn't be surprised to see many suggest the latter.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 08:18 PM
But Weis hasn't proven **** as a coach yet, so we don't know if they will be. I mean, 4 of "Charlie's guys" have left the program mid-season this year! That's crazy.

Back on topic, Colt Brennan sucks.

I really think Woodson is an elite QB, and Brohm is on the cusp. Ryan is a nice player, but nothing special. Woodson's got a gun and just has those intangibles you can't identify, sort of like VY. The man wins games he shouldn't.

What exactly did you receive an infraction for here? The censors are on the curse word you used.

P-L
10-16-2007, 08:20 PM
I have Ainge as my #4 QB, but in my opinion he's a lot closer to Brian Brohm than Brohm is to Woodson and Ryan.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 08:21 PM
What exactly did you receive an infraction for here? The censors are on the curse word you used.

The funny thing is that it wasn't for the censored word, which was a synonym of crap. It was for saying Colt "I throw 9 picks in 2 games vs. Idaho and SJ State" sucks. Didn't know sucks was such an inflammatory word, considering everyone on here uses it.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 08:27 PM
Scott, I have a question about your QBs.

How is Colt Brennan still ranked so highly despite some downright putrid performances but a guy like Chad Henne has dropped like crazy with sub par performances against Appalachian State and Oregon? I don't recall Chad throwing 9 INTs against crappy teams.

BUTerriers
10-16-2007, 08:53 PM
Matt Ryan may not be a superstar in the NFL, but I think he's close to former BC star Matt Hasselbeck...A fringe Pro Bowler who can put up good numbers and be a good leader. Woodson has the highest ceiling of any of them, but he probably has the biggest bust potential...I'm just not big on Brohm, and Brennan is a wild card. Put in the right situation I think he can be successful, but he may just not be cut out for the NFL.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-16-2007, 08:53 PM
Scott, I have a question about your QBs.

How is Colt Brennan still ranked so highly despite some downright putrid performances but a guy like Chad Henne has dropped like crazy with sub par performances against Appalachian State and Oregon? I don't recall Chad throwing 9 INTs against crappy teams.

I don't recall brennan losing any games.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 08:55 PM
I don't recall brennan losing any games.

That doesn't mean Brennan shouldn't drop. By your logic, Todd Boeckman, Matt Ryan and Colt Brennan should be #1,2,3 in the QB rankings.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 09:04 PM
I don't recall brennan losing any games.

That really doesnt matter come NFL draft day.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-16-2007, 09:06 PM
That doesn't mean Brennan shouldn't drop. By your logic, Todd Boeckman, Matt Ryan and Colt Brennan should be #1,2,3 in the QB rankings.
I don't agree with todd Boekman, but Brennan and Ryan have a case for atleast #2, if not 1.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 09:12 PM
I don't agree with todd Boekman, but Brennan and Ryan have a case for atleast #2, if not 1.

Are you saying that Brennan might be the 1st or 2nd quarterback picked in the draft?

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-16-2007, 09:19 PM
Are you saying that Brennan might be the 1st or 2nd quarterback picked in the draft?

Yes he might. Why wouldn't he be one of the top QB's?

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 09:23 PM
Yes he might. Why wouldn't he be one of the top QB's?

And where would Andre Woodson and Brian Brohm fall for you? Hawaii homers wouldnt even say he is going to be the 1st QB taken.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-16-2007, 09:27 PM
And where would Andre Woodson and Brian Brohm fall for you? Hawaii homers wouldnt even say he is going to be the 1st QB taken.

I never said he was going to be, but he has the chance to be 1 or 2. What if Woodson screws up every game left, or gets severly hurt? there's always a possibility, but i beleive Colt will be #4 taken behind Ryan, Woodson, and Brohm, but I would rank him as the 3rd with 1. Ryan, 2. Woodson, 3. Brennan, 4. Brohm.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 09:28 PM
Yes he might. Why wouldn't he be one of the top QB's?

You should probably stop talking, champ.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 09:28 PM
I never said he was going to be, but he has the chance to be 1 or 2. What if Woodson screws up every game left, or gets severly hurt? there's always a possibility, but i beleive Colt will be #4 taken behind Ryan, Woodson, and Brohm, but I would rank him as the 3rd with 1. Ryan, 2. Woodson, 3. Brennan, 4. Brohm.

Possibly the biggest crock of rankings I've ever seen.

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 09:29 PM
I never said he was going to be, but he has the chance to be 1 or 2. What if Woodson screws up every game left, or gets severly hurt? there's always a possibility, but i beleive Colt will be #4 taken behind Ryan, Woodson, and Brohm, but I would rank him as the 3rd with 1. Ryan, 2. Woodson, 3. Brennan, 4. Brohm.

Brennan is not getting drafted before Brohm.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-16-2007, 09:31 PM
Brennan is not getting drafted before Brohm.

I didn't say he would. Brohm is not a better QB than Brennan though, he's missing the "IT" factor that everyone talks about. His arm is decent, good accuracy, I don't see the love for Brohm, nothing really stands out.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 09:35 PM
I didn't say he would. Brohm is not a better QB than Brennan though, he's missing the "IT" factor that everyone talks about. His arm is decent, good accuracy, I don't see the love for Brohm, nothing really stands out.

Is the "It" factor an ability to throw 9 picks against sub-standard competition?

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 09:37 PM
I didn't say he would. Brohm is not a better QB than Brennan though, he's missing the "IT" factor that everyone talks about. His arm is decent, good accuracy, I don't see the love for Brohm, nothing really stands out.

Brohm is not a better QB then Brennan... What have you been watching all season? Brohm has 23 touchdowns 4 interceptions 2765 yards and just beat undefeated Cincinnati. Brennan has 20 touchdowns 10 interceptions 2395 yards and his best win is against San Jose State.

neko4
10-16-2007, 09:42 PM
Who said those picks were his fault, he doesnt have the greatest WR core, outside of Bess, and i dont really think hes got that great of aline. A wr couldve ran a bad route, or tipped a pass up into the air. For all you know only 5 picks were his fault. I dont youve ever watched hawaii play outside of the SJ State game

Sniper
10-16-2007, 09:44 PM
Who said those picks were his fault, he doesnt have the greatest WR core, outside of Bess, and i dont really think hes got that great of aline. A wr couldve ran a bad route, or tipped a pass up into the air. For all you know only 5 picks were his fault. I dont youve ever watched hawaii play outside of the SJ State game

That's funny "only" 5 picks were his fault. Anything to save this year's favorite gimmick player

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 09:44 PM
Who said those picks were his fault, he doesnt have the greatest WR core, outside of Bess, and i dont really think hes got that great of aline. A wr couldve ran a bad route, or tipped a pass up into the air. For all you know only 5 picks were his fault. I dont youve ever watched hawaii play outside of the SJ State game

I dont understand your last sentence, but if your asking if I have watched other games besides the SJSU game?? The answer is yes I have watched all of them besides the 2 1AA games.

neko4
10-16-2007, 09:54 PM
That's funny "only" 5 picks were his fault. Anything to save this year's favorite gimmick player
I never said 5 picks were his fault, i said "For all you know" 5 picks were his fault. Im merely speculating

RyanLeaf#1
10-16-2007, 09:57 PM
I never said 5 picks were his fault, i said "For all you know" 5 picks were his fault. Im merely speculating

So you havent watched the games?

Smokey Joe
10-16-2007, 10:06 PM
I think Woodson will be elite and be a top 5 pick (Falcons). Ryan will probably be top 15, and I see Brohm falling into the 20's.

BucSappy
10-16-2007, 10:39 PM
I don't get it. I don't understand what this guy has to do to be considered a top 5 lock at this point.

Arm? Check
Leadership? Check Check
Size? Check Check
Poise? Check Check
Decison Making? Check
Ability to read a defense? Check Check
Upside? Check

I mean what do guys like Carson Palmer and Peyton Manning have as prospects that Woodson doesn't?

Does Woodson miss a few passes sometimes? Yes, but guess what all quarterbacks do.

Is his arm elite? No, but last time i checked his arm is very good and being a great QB is more than just having a really strong arm (see George, Jeff).

Maybe I'm missing something, but please explain your hate for Andre' Woodson, who is clearly the consensus #1 QB and a lock for the top 10 in the 2008 NFL Draft.

BucSappy
10-16-2007, 10:51 PM
Brohm is not a better QB then Brennan... What have you been watching all season? Brohm has 23 touchdowns 4 interceptions 2765 yards and just beat undefeated Cincinnati. Brennan has 20 touchdowns 10 interceptions 2395 yards and his best win is against San Jose State.

NFL Scouts don't read box scores when evaluating players.

But hey if college stats meant anything in the NFL then I guess Danny Ware, Tim Couch, and David Carr would be a Hall of Famers.

BucSappy
10-16-2007, 10:52 PM
I think Woodson will be elite and be a top 5 pick (Falcons). Ryan will probably be top 15, and I see Brohm falling into the 20's.

Totally agree about Woodson being a Falcon, but I think Brohm and Ryan will go to Chicago and Minnesota (not sure which goes where, but I think they will both be in a spot where they can't pass up taking a QB).

Saints-Tigers
10-16-2007, 10:55 PM
I don't get it. I don't understand what this guy has to do to be considered a top 5 lock at this point.

Arm? Check
Leadership? Check Check
Size? Check Check
Poise? Check Check
Decison Making? Check
Ability to read a defense? Check Check
Upside? Check

I mean what do guys like Carson Palmer and Peyton Manning have as prospects that Woodson doesn't?

Does Woodson miss a few passes sometimes? Yes, but guess what all quarterbacks do.

Is his arm elite? No, but last time i checked his arm is very good and being a great QB is more than just having a really strong arm (see George, Jeff).

Maybe I'm missing something, but please explain your hate for Andre' Woodson, who is clearly the consensus #1 QB and a lock for the top 10 in the 2008 NFL Draft.

I think you answered your own question. Is he great? sure, but he's not in the class of someone like Peyton Manning of Carson Palmer... you know, #1 locks.

BrownsTown
10-16-2007, 10:59 PM
I haven't seen much of Woodson. I saw the 2nd half of the Kentucky-LSU game, so I'm probably just talking out of my ass, but his mechanics looked ****** up. He had a weird throwing motion.

soybean
10-16-2007, 11:02 PM
he doesn't put as good a touch on the ball as peyton or carson. Also his footwork isn't that great. and his windup motion is kind of weird.

But like brownstown i rarely see him play.

Sniper
10-16-2007, 11:11 PM
Did this really need another thread? Can we just start making one thread per player instead of 198 different threads for each player?

toonsterwu
10-17-2007, 12:00 AM
reading some of the comments -

really hard to use collegiate numbers as some sort of gauge as to whether or not 1 QB is better than the other ... different schemes, different level of opponents and so forth ... you look more for skillset than you do for numbers, although the guy obviously can't be awful numbers wise relative to draft value...

thing that makes woodson not elite, in my book, has been the mechanics ... it's true that even someone like Russell needed some mechanical touching up ... that said, Woodson lacks the top level physical tools of Russell, which is what separates the two in many respects ... i think Woodson is good and as of now, I think he's the best of this year's bunch, but I don't think he's the type of prospect that is an elite player in every draft ...

Shiver
10-17-2007, 12:44 AM
I think you answered your own question. Is he great? sure, but he's not in the class of someone like Peyton Manning of Carson Palmer... you know, #1 locks.


Except Peyton Manning was not a #1 lock, specifically because he didn't have the cannon that his rival had....

Saints-Tigers
10-17-2007, 12:53 AM
Except Peyton Manning was not a #1 lock, specifically because he didn't have the cannon that his rival had....

Well, a majority had him as the #1(including the team picking) and that was against a guy that would be the first quarterback taken this year by far.

BucSappy
10-17-2007, 05:02 AM
I haven't seen much of Woodson. I saw the 2nd half of the Kentucky-LSU game, so I'm probably just talking out of my ass, but his mechanics looked ****** up. He had a weird throwing motion.

Some football guru on the BCS ratings show on FSN broke down's Woodson's mechanics in the LSU game and even dubbed him as a "perfect QB."

So you are just talking out of your ass, even Andre' Ware said Woodson last year was the most technically sound QB in college football.

BucSappy
10-17-2007, 05:06 AM
thing that makes woodson not elite, in my book, has been the mechanics ... it's true that even someone like Russell needed some mechanical touching up ... that said, Woodson lacks the top level physical tools of Russell, which is what separates the two in many respects ... i think Woodson is good and as of now, I think he's the best of this year's bunch, but I don't think he's the type of prospect that is an elite player in every draft ...

Doesn't EVERY QB in NFL Draft history lack the physical tools of a Jamarcus Russell? Mannings' arm wasn't as good as Russell's. Palmer's was great but so is Woodson's.

Why is Woodson's mechanics a problem? He has great footwork, has an overhead throwing motion, doesn't make mistakes, and has shown the ability to check into audibles at the LOS in a Peyton Manning-like way (he estimate checking out of half of the plays in the LSU game).

What does this kid have to ******* do? He makes huge plays. He wins huge games. He has great size. He has great athleticism (not necessarilly speed but he shows great poise and an uncanny ability to improvise in the passing game).

I just don't get it.

OzTitan
10-17-2007, 05:54 AM
If a QB has footwork down and a quick delivery, IMO mechanics come 3rd. I remember everyone was saying VY's passes would be batted down at the LOS constantly. Well, I honestly don't recall one. In any case, mechanics can be overblown at this stage.

Then again, his passes can sail a little bit, but I think that's just a consistency thing as they can also zip up there with the best of them. I really think good footwork is the more important asset to have.

RyanLeaf#1
10-17-2007, 07:39 AM
NFL Scouts don't read box scores when evaluating players.

But hey if college stats meant anything in the NFL then I guess Danny Ware, Tim Couch, and David Carr would be a Hall of Famers.

I know they dont read box scores, but if NFL scouts were at the last 2 games Brennan played in, he would be dropping alot. And he wouldnt be the 1st qb taken. Thats what me and Jeff S are talking about right now. Jeff S thinks he will be the 1st or 2nd QB taken in the draft. My arguement with the stats was look who Brohm has done it against, and look who Brennan has done it against. Make sure you understand the conversation before you reply with rediculous comments like the one above.

BUTerriers
10-17-2007, 10:10 AM
Let's be fair to Brennan here...9 INTs against Idaho and SJSU is disconcerting, but that doesn't mean he can't be a success in the NFL...He's not the only QB that has struggled in games against inferior opponents. Some of those QBs even went on to success in the NFL. I'm not saying he will or won't, but those 9 INTs shouldn't be used as a be all, end all reason why he will fail.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-17-2007, 06:23 PM
I know they dont read box scores, but if NFL scouts were at the last 2 games Brennan played in, he would be dropping alot. And he wouldnt be the 1st qb taken. Thats what me and Jeff S are talking about right now. Jeff S thinks he will be the 1st or 2nd QB taken in the draft. My arguement with the stats was look who Brohm has done it against, and look who Brennan has done it against. Make sure you understand the conversation before you reply with rediculous comments like the one above.

No, my arguement to you is that Brennan isn't a sucky QB. He is not the best, but is in the top 4 definintly. I have him being taken 4th(as I've said before), but think he is the 3rd best QB in the class.

thebow305
10-17-2007, 06:47 PM
I think Brohm needs the right system to be able to flourish, like his old system with Petrino in Atlanta. If he goes there I think he will be good, otherwise he will struggle heavily.

Woodson I think could be anwhere as good as Culpepper in his prime, or just a solid type like Jason Campbell.

Ryan I think is the only one that will be Elite. I don't know how most people aren't seriously considering him to be Tom Brady-esque, because that is exactly what I see from him. Someone who will make a mistake from time to time, but has a great arm and will always find a way to get it done. Very smart individual as well. He has everything you look for in a quarterback. Not very mobile, but who cares!?

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-17-2007, 06:56 PM
Ryan I think is the only one that will be Elite. I don't know how most people aren't seriously considering him to be Tom Brady-esque, because that is exactly what I see from him. Someone who will make a mistake from time to time, but has a great arm and will always find a way to get it done. Very smart individual as well. He has everything you look for in a quarterback. Not very mobile, but who cares!?

Matt Ryan is my #1 QB, and I compare him to a Tom Brady. Just has that demeanor to win games and get it done.

Sniper
10-17-2007, 08:05 PM
Matt Ryan is my #1 QB, and I compare him to a Tom Brady. Just has that demeanor to win games and get it done.

Wheras Woodson doesn't? I forgot he looked brutal in that loss to #1 LSU....Wait.......Ryan hasn't had to beat anyone good this year.

D-Unit
10-18-2007, 12:36 AM
Man, why didn't I find this thread before???

Brennan haters going off without me??? That's no fun.

The only thing I hear from the haters are 2 things:

- 9 INTs in 2 games vs Idaho and SJSU

- Weak Strength of Schedule

Anything else? Cuz I'ma eat you up alive if that's all the ammo you got. Bring it now before I bust your chops and drop some knowledge on your head.

Giantsfan1080
10-18-2007, 12:49 AM
Man, why didn't I find this thread before???

Brennan haters going off without me??? That's no fun.

The only thing I hear from the haters are 2 things:

- 9 INTs in 2 games vs Idaho and SJSU

- Weak Strength of Schedule

Anything else? Cuz I'ma eat you up alive if that's all the ammo you got. Bring it now before I bust your chops and drop some knowledge on your head.

I'm not really a hater but how do you explain those 2 things?

soybean
10-18-2007, 12:54 AM
why does it matter who thinks colt is good and who thinks he is bad? Let him prove either of your sides right or wrong. Great players don't need defending.

D-Unit
10-18-2007, 02:13 AM
I'm not really a hater but how do you explain those 2 things?
Ha ha.. Well the short of it is...

To the first point... the 9 interceptions... Before I get to the explanation of the interceptions, let me just say... If someone is going to criticize a player based off stats, they should look at his entire stat resume, not just base an entire opinion off 1 or 2 games. If you're gonna kill him for 9 INTs in 2 games, then praise him for 58 TDs vs 12 INTs in 13 games last year (and he only played through a handful of 4th quarters before getting benched)... throwing 5500+ yards at a 73% completion percentage... 185.6 QB Rating (highest rating ever in the history of college football). I have no problems smashing him when his stats are down as long as you acknowledge him when his stats are up. But no, critics won't acknowledge that because it puts them back in their hole.

Now let's look at the 9 INTs...

Critics will say he was terrible against Idaho. Yeah, well I don't disagree. However, he got injured in practice the day before the game. His ankle was torn up but he decided to play anyways. Turned out to be a bad decision as he had problems planting his foot. Honestly, it's fair for critics to say he was bad, but at the same time, it does show his toughness and willingness to play through pain. It is impossible to deny that he played on a healthy foot though.

Let's look at the stats:

First 2.25 games (he only finished the LaTech game) of the year:
N. Colorado (first half only), @Louisiana Tech, @UNLV (3 quarters play): 16 TDs/1 INT

*Sprains ankle*

@Idaho, Utah St., @San Jose St.: 10 TDs/9 INTs

Obviously something is wrong with that picture. Knock a guy down while he's hurt, that's what the critics will do. Credit him when he does good? Nah, never. They've got an excuse for that too. S.O.S. But I'll get to that later.

Against SJSU, again Brennan played a bad game. Did anyone see that field and weather conditions he played though??? It's the kind of game that if you ran the ball a lot there would be a lot of fumbles. The kind of game that if you pass a lot, there would be a lot of interceptions. That field was a mud pond and it was raining. For an offense like Hawaii's that is based off timing and precision route running, let's just say those conditions were not ideal. "The elements played a factor a little bit, they definitely threw us off, but that's what football is all about." --Colt. He's a freakin' competitor who loves to face the odds. Hey, wanna blame the system when he does good? Then blame the system when he passes for a school record 75 times in the mud and rain... only coming away with 4 interceptions... that's impressive.

But naw... you wanna talk about impressive? Hawaii down by 14 with 5 minutes left in the game... San Jose St. fans are gleaming with pride minutes away from upsetting the 18th ranked team in the land. Coach Dick Tomey (former Hawaii football coach) had geared his team up for this game all year... Biggest game of the year for them... on their home field... no other coach in the entire nation knows the Hawaii team better than Tomey who used to be the radio game announcer for Hawaii football less than 2 years ago... and knows Coach Jones and his system intimately... not to mention getting back at Hawaii for the romping they received last year sure sounds sweet... Colt doesn't care. They get the ball back at their own 3 yard line and he drives them down the field flawlessly going 8 for 8 passing 97 yards for a TD in 3 minutes 25 seconds. Still down 1 TD. Hawaii D causes a fumble and Colt gets the ball back at the SJSU 45 yard line. 8 more plays, 2 min 25 seconds later with 18 seconds left on the clock, Colt runs it in to tie the game to force Overtime. Game not over yet, Hawaii gets the pressure of being first on offense. No problem. Colt drives down in 4 plays and throws a TD to Jason Rivers. SJSU can't answer. Hawaii wins! Wanna talk about that "it" factor??? There you go folks. This ain't the first time and it ain't the last. Same thing happened in LaTech. Amazing comeback. Same thing happened last year against Purdue with Hawaii storming back for the win in a 4th Quarter comeback victory. Same thing happens time and time again. The guy is a winner. He has all the confidence in himself to get the job done and rally the guys around him on offense AND defense. Now you're gonna tell me some guy looks at 4 interceptions on the stat sheet and says Colt is gonna be a bust? Get the hell outta town!

At SJSU Game...
http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/29ce46db-416f-49b3-bd91-dff078926940.jpg

More pics of the field:
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=UHSPORTSGALLERY0201&archiveURL=http%3A%2F%2Fthe.honoluluadvertiser.com %2F2007%2FOct%2F13%2Fsp%2Fuhfootball.html

Game Video: http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071013/VIDEO05/71012009/1035

June Jones was not happy with the field conditions at San Jose State's Spartan Stadium, calling it "atrocious" and an "an embarrassment for a Division I field" during Monday's teleconference.



So point #2: Weak SOS.

First off, the schedule is not his fault. Second of all, he's performed at the same high level even against bigger opponents, so he has proven that what he does is not a fluke. 41-24 2006 Hawaii Bowl, Hawaii over Arizona St. Colt throws for 560 yards, 5TDs at 79% completion percentage on national TV.

This year's schedule is weak. But it's looking better than it was than when the season first started. Who knew UNLV would take Wisconsin down to the last minute of the 4th Qtr, who knew Frenso would take then ranked #16 Texas A&M into OT, who knew Hawaii would beat Idaho in Idaho worse than USC would beat them in the Collesium??? SOS talk is a weak argument to base the grade of a QB regardless if his schedule is weak or strong at any time of the year in any year. Right now, teams are starting to show that they are better than advertised in the preseason. Teams across the nation are showing that they were better than they were and some are showing that they were worse than they were. SOS changes weekly. Games that determine BCS SOS go down to the very last game of the year for many teams. I'm not saying Hawaii has a tough schedule all of a sudden, but the actual SOS is still yet to be determined.

The haters have a comment to knock him down only because they favor someone else. It's not hating him because he lacks skill, it's hating him because of the word, "Favoritism". There's also haters out there that want to be known for taking a stance on an issue. They want self credit. They want to be known as the guy who said this and that way back when. It's personal glory they seek in making a big point out of an issue. I call it like I see it.

Fact of the matter is that Colt Brennan has legit pro skills and a growing body (He's gained 15 pounds since the end of last year). How you rank him now versus other QBs out there is meaningless. Even the best NFL scouts can't get a good read on him, so I don't expect any know it all here to. Only time will tell. Colt is a champion of the underdog. America loves the underdog. That's where the hype is coming from. Hawaii football is at a height never seen in it's entire history of the school. June Jones took over a program that went 0-12. Today his team is in the top 20 among talks for a freaking BCS bowl bid and undefeated season with a QB in the Heisman race on the cover of ESPN the Magazine and all over the news in other publications. None of this is possible without Colt. None of it.

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/5955/mag10082007cf6.jpg

thule
10-18-2007, 02:29 AM
Great post D.

The thing I find funny is last year scouts had him rated in the top 20. I remember Scott having him go to the Jags at one point in time. Now he isn't even considered a top 50 prospect by most. It's not like he has gotten worst of the course of the year.

SchizophrenicBatman
10-18-2007, 04:43 PM
Matt Ryan is overrated. There, I said it. He's getting hyped up now because BC is undefeated (though their schedule hasn't been all that tough either...) and he hasn't done anything dumb this year. Just wait until he throws a couple picks off his back foot (like he always does) and loses a game he shouldn't and his stock will come crashing back down. If he can prove that he's put that stage of his career behind him, then he's a very nice prospect. Has the size and the arm is good enough. I don't think he's worth an early first round pick, however

I've been on the Woodson bandwagon since day one but he has his flaws too. First, he's almost too calm. The way he seems in control all the time is great in many aspects, but QBs do need a sense of urgency and he takes a lot of sacks on account of this. Other than that and the way he lifts the ball as he goes into his motion I love everything about him. The touch he uses especially

Brohm, well, I'm pretty much in agreeance with everyone else here on him. I've just never been that impressed by him, though there's no denying that he deserves upper tier mention. Reminds me of the Quinn situation a bit, though their flaws aren't similar

Also, re: Henne struggling vs Brennan struggling. I think a lot of people were skpetical of Henne coming into the year to begin with and he did nothing to prove them wrong. Meanwhile with Brennan, it still remains a polarizing debate. The people who thought he was nothing more than a system QB thought that last year and they still think it now

Geo
10-18-2007, 04:47 PM
It couldn't be the Boston College is undefeated because Ryan has played so great. With a new head coach who was the offensive coordinator of the Green Bay Packers in 2006. No, it couldn't be that at all.

SchizophrenicBatman
10-18-2007, 05:15 PM
What are you trying to say? That Tom O'Brien was overrated and couldn't take BC to the next level even though he built them from nothing? Because I fully agree on that point, though this isn't a discussion of college football. Ryan's managed not to blow a game against a bottom dweller this year but he still has plenty of time. In fact, he had bad games against NC State and UMass, but the rest of his team covered that up

dre1614
10-19-2007, 08:06 AM
Brennen reminds me of Tony Romo, only more polished than him when coming out of college, and not quite an athlete as Romo.

Shiver
10-28-2007, 02:30 AM
How does this week change things for your perspective?

Matt Ryan - 25/52, 2 TD, 2 INT (impressive end to the game, terrible first 56 minutes)

Andre Woodson - 24/42, 2 TD, 3 INT (upset loss to Mississippi State)

Brian Brohm - 21/30, 2 TD, 1 INT (once again their defense is at fault for Louisville's problems, not Brohm)

d34ng3l021
10-28-2007, 02:36 AM
The conditions that Matt Ryan was playing through...Rainy against a VT defense. And to shrug that off at the end to pull through. Impressive.

Geo
10-28-2007, 10:04 AM
I believe I heard that Kentucky was without their top receiver Keenan Burton against Mississippi State. Granted, Steve Johnson is as clutch as Michael Knight and his car KITT, but I personally can't speak knowledgable about the talent/depth of the remaining Kentucky receivers. They were already without their top two runningbacks.

Not that that is an excuse for their home loss.

PoopSandwich
10-28-2007, 10:20 AM
Matt Ryan is overrated. There, I said it.

YOU DONT DOWNGRADE HIM BECAUSE HE DOES EVERYTHING RIGHT, AND MAY NOT PLAY AS WELL ON SATURDAYS.

Attacking an amature athlete for doing everything right...

BuckNaked
10-28-2007, 10:47 AM
All of Woodson's picks came in the 4th quarter from Joker Phillips being a dumbass and calling the deep ball every play without Burton on the field to take attention away from some other recievers. He definitely would have had more TD's, if Tamme didn't have that fumble and if our 5th string freshman running back Moncell Allen, who was playing because the first four were injured, didn't have that stupid fumble. The thing about having Burton is, that even if he's hurt, if he is on the field he pulls some of that attention away from Johnson and Lyons which really opens them up.

Addict
10-28-2007, 11:05 AM
so... if I am getting it right..

Brennan throws INT's thus he is an overrated product of the system, Ryan has a tough game and he's an overrated talentless idiot who is lucky his team is solid, Andre Woodson throws 3 INT's thus the playcalling is done by idiots...

did I miss anything?

BuckNaked
10-28-2007, 11:44 AM
so... if I am getting it right..

Brennan throws INT's thus he is an overrated product of the system, Ryan has a tough game and he's an overrated talentless idiot who is lucky his team is solid, Andre Woodson throws 3 INT's thus the playcalling is done by idiots...

did I miss anything?

I turned the game off before he threw the last interceptions. The first one he threw was a good pass on a deep ball to Johnson, but it got tipped up and another corner caught it off the tip. I didn't watch the other two, but I heard they were both on deep balls. By no means am I defending Woodson, he really didn't play a great game and missed some recievers. I'm just trying to point out that it wasn't all his fault, due to our first four running backs being injured, with Keenan Burton out, the fumbles by the offense (even thought Tamme was down) and the defense certainly got manhandled by Mississippi State. There were just a lot of blown opportunities all around the field. The blame shouldn't be placed on top of any single player, it should be placed upon the entire football team. However, this game definitely didn't help his draft stock. Luckily, he still has a number of games to play to make up for it.

P-L
10-28-2007, 01:01 PM
I'm still not a fan of Brohm, and I still think the only place he has a chance to live up to his hype is in Atlanta with Bobby Petrino. I wonder if there is something wrong with Woodson. He broke the NCAA record for most consecutive passes without an INT and showed very good decision making skills. Now he's thrown 6 INT in Kentucky's last 4 games.

umphrey
10-28-2007, 01:01 PM
I like Woodson the best by far, but he'll need a little time to develop. The Matt Ryan comparisons to Tom Brady are silly - it seems that all you have to do to get that label these days is to win a lot of games with marginal talent. Look what happened to Leinart (who got the same comparisons), he had everything set up for him to succeed and he looks just average so far. I think the same will happen to Ryan - he will be brought in somewhere with big expectations, and be just average.

Staubach12
10-28-2007, 01:14 PM
While there really isn't an elite talent this year, there is a lot of talent spread out.

1st tier
1. Matt Ryan, BC
2. Andre' Woodson, Kentucky
3. Brian Brohm, Louisville
4. Colt Brennan, Hawaii
2nd tier
5. Sam Keller, Nebraska
6. Erik Ainge, Tennessee
7. John David Booty, USC
Third tier
8. Chad Henne, Michigan
9. Dennis Dixon, Oregon
10. Joe Flacco, Delware1st tier


That's my rankings right now. Honestly, I could see 4 or 5 QBs going in the first.

BucSappy
10-28-2007, 07:44 PM
Everyone loves what Ryan did against VT. He is a good player. But Woodson was clutch against Louisville, Arkansas, LSU, and a lot of times against Florida.

Woodson is the elite QB in this draft, but Ryan will push him. Andre' Woodson WILL be an Atlanta Falcon.

BucSappy
10-28-2007, 07:46 PM
Today his team is in the top 20 among talks for a freaking BCS bowl bid and undefeated season with a QB in the Heisman race on the cover of ESPN the Magazine and all over the news in other publications. None of this is possible without Colt. None of it.

I don't think any of that is possible without playing a creampuff schedule or the run n' shoot offense.

Addict
10-28-2007, 08:01 PM
Everyone loves what Ryan did against VT. He is a good player. But Woodson was clutch against Louisville, Arkansas, LSU, and a lot of times against Florida.

Woodson is the elite QB in this draft, but Ryan will push him. Andre' Woodson WILL be an Atlanta Falcon.

1. WAY too early to tell
2. Petrino - Brohm seems awfully obvious

D-Unit
10-28-2007, 08:07 PM
I don't think any of that is possible without playing a creampuff schedule or the run n' shoot offense.
Gotta love it, huh. Hawaii should schedule easy opponents every year. It doesn't matter.

MaxV
10-28-2007, 08:13 PM
While there really isn't an elite talent this year, there is a lot of talent spread out.

1st tier
1. Matt Ryan, BC
2. Andre' Woodson, Kentucky
3. Brian Brohm, Louisville
4. Colt Brennan, Hawaii
2nd tier
5. Sam Keller, Nebraska
6. Erik Ainge, Tennessee
7. John David Booty, USC
Third tier
8. Chad Henne, Michigan
9. Dennis Dixon, Oregon
10. Joe Flacco, Delware1st tier


That's my rankings right now. Honestly, I could see 4 or 5 QBs going in the first.

Probably not.

There are very few teams that are looking for a QB, combine that with the fact that this is a deep class and a good QB prospect could be found in the 2nd and maybe even 3rd rounds and I think you'll see several of those names fall.

Geo
10-28-2007, 08:18 PM
I agree with Max, I don't see another first round pick at quarterback past the Big Three at the moment. Teams interested can wait until the second round, the third round, as we saw in the 2007 Draft.

MaxV
10-28-2007, 08:22 PM
I acctually think that 1 of those "Big 3" may acctually fall all the way to late-1st.

jballa838
10-28-2007, 08:23 PM
Gotta love it, huh. Hawaii should schedule easy opponents every year. It doesn't matter.
ending with #22 Boise State and a University of Washington team, that played well against some of the best teams in the nation, is not going to be an easy task.
Plain and Simple, Brennan will be tested and judged in those two games. and if Hawaii comes out on top in those, not only are they a BCS team, he is taken in the first 1 and a 1/2 rounds of the draft.

BuckNaked
10-28-2007, 09:04 PM
Gotta love it, huh. Hawaii should schedule easy opponents every year. It doesn't matter.

No, they really shouldn't. Considering they don't play anybody, nobody knows if they're actually a good team or not. One of the bottom tier teams in a conference like the SEC for example would most likely go undefeated with Hawaii's schedule.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-28-2007, 09:08 PM
1. WAY too early to tell
2. Petrino - Brohm seems awfully obvious

Bush - Petrino in the 3rd seemed like a lock, but Petrino didn't pick him up, Granted he had a big leg injury, which Petrino knew the best. Now, I don't think Petrino will be a Steve Spurrier or a Rick Pitino, where he tries to bring in all of his former players, but Brohm being in Petrino's system will probably be able to start in his 1st year and that should be what puts him above others in Petrino's eyes. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Petrino doesn't pick Brohm and goes in another direction though.

D-Unit
10-28-2007, 10:20 PM
No, they really shouldn't. Considering they don't play anybody, nobody knows if they're actually a good team or not. One of the bottom tier teams in a conference like the SEC for example would most likely go undefeated with Hawaii's schedule.
They'll know once we get to a BCS game.

neko4
10-28-2007, 10:22 PM
They'll know once we get to a BCS game.
Sorry D ive gotta agree w/ the dude, I love me some SEC foosball

BuckNaked
10-28-2007, 10:36 PM
They'll know once we get to a BCS game.

I really hope they don't make it considering they would take a spot away from a team that actually deserves it.

neko4
10-28-2007, 10:43 PM
I dont know about that, i feel this years Hawaii team is better than last years Boise St team

Primetime21
10-28-2007, 10:45 PM
I really hope they don't make it considering they would take a spot away from a team that actually deserves it.

If they beat BSU and Washington, I think they deserve it. Boise State showed the WAC isnt entirely made up of toddler teams.

D-Unit
10-28-2007, 10:49 PM
I really hope they don't make it considering they would take a spot away from a team that actually deserves it.
Like who Kentucky? LOL. Hawaii would smash Kentucky. They wouldn't know what hit them.

BuckNaked
10-28-2007, 10:51 PM
Like who Kentucky? LOL. Hawaii would smash Kentucky. They wouldn't know what hit them.

I'd really like to see Hawaii beat LSU.

Primetime21
10-28-2007, 10:51 PM
I dont know about that, i feel this years Hawaii team is better than last years Boise St team

Hawaii lost a lot of impact players like Leonard Peters,Ikaika Alama-Francis, and Samson Satelle which could be argued as best players of their position in Hawaii history. Also no newcomers have really stepped up and Brennan has regressed.

There is almost no argument that they were better than BSU last year. Hawaii last year, however I believe is better than this years.

neko4
10-28-2007, 10:53 PM
Hawaii lost a lot of impact players like Leonard Peters,Ikaika Alama-Francis, and Samson Satelle which could be argued as best players of their position in Hawaii history. Also no newcomers have really stepped up and Brennan has regressed.

There is almost no argument that they were better than BSU last year. Hawaii last year, however I believe is better than this years.
I think its been well pointed out that Brennan had an ankle injury attributing to his regression

D-Unit
10-28-2007, 10:57 PM
Hawaii lost a lot of impact players like Leonard Peters,Ikaika Alama-Francis, and Samson Satelle which could be argued as best players of their position in Hawaii history. Also no newcomers have really stepped up and Brennan has regressed.

There is almost no argument that they were better than BSU last year. Hawaii last year, however I believe is better than this years.
The OL is definitely weaker losing both OTs and C, Samson Satele. The running game is also not as good.

The defense on the other hand has already outproduced last year's squad as far as sacks, ints are concerned. The scheme change back to the 4-3 is a better fit for the personnel and it's showing. 27 sacks, 16 ints, 7 FF, 1 BK. Offensively, they aren't clicking like they did last year, but the Defense is something nobody is paying attention to.

Iamcanadian
10-28-2007, 11:07 PM
I think Woodson is becoming elite. Two big wins against Louisville and LSU with 4th quarter drives. I think he has seperated himself from Brohm. His pocket prescence and "calmness" are things that stand out to me.


We totally agree. I always look for pocket presence and calmness when judging a QB provided he has a pro arm. Woodson simply doesn't have the talent around him and yet produces wonderful stats against good teams that far outman Kentucky.

BucSappy
10-29-2007, 02:10 AM
Like who Kentucky? LOL. Hawaii would smash Kentucky. They wouldn't know what hit them.

HAHHAHAHHAHAHHAA

You think your defense could stop our offense. Give me a ****** break.

I mean if Brennan can get picked 6 times against Idaho, I have to believe Kentucky can at least stop Hawaii a few times in the game.

BucSappy
10-29-2007, 02:11 AM
Woodson simply doesn't have the talent around him and yet produces wonderful stats against good teams that far outman Kentucky.

Keenan Burton
Dickey Lyons
Steve Johnson
Jacob Tamme
All 5 of Kentucky's RBs
A pretty good OL...I think he has talent around him.

BucSappy
10-29-2007, 02:14 AM
I really hope they don't make it considering they would take a spot away from a team that actually deserves it.

I totally disagree. I want Hawaii to go undefeated because I want to see them get smashed and then hear what the Unit has to say about it.

Brennan: 17/83, 155 yards passing, 12 INTs

D-Unit: "He just had a bad day. His girlfriend broke up with him the day before. His puppy died..."

nobodyinparticular
10-29-2007, 02:16 AM
So how far below last year's top 2 are this year's crop? At this stage, of course.

As a fan of a team who recently spent a #1 overall draft pick on a QB, I will echo this question. If you had to make a list of the 2006, 2007 and 2008 QB class, where would you rank them all?

D-Unit
10-29-2007, 02:19 AM
I totally disagree. I want Hawaii to go undefeated because I want to see them get smashed and then hear what the Unit has to say about it.

Brennan: 17/83, 155 yards passing, 12 INTs

D-Unit: "He just had a bad day. His girlfriend broke up with him the day before. His puppy died..."
Typical newbie. Always trying to make it personal. Other than immature and easily offended, who are you?

I think it's hilarious how Kentucky fans are coming out of the woodwork this year. They talk as if their team has been good this century. Kentucky football? WTF is that???

nobodyinparticular
10-29-2007, 02:26 AM
Typical newbie. Always trying to make it personal. Other than immature and easily offended, who are you?

I think it's hilarious how Kentucky fans are coming out of the woodwork this year. They talk as if their team has been good this century. Kentucky football? WTF is that???

Awww... be nice to the poor band wagoners...

thule
10-29-2007, 02:54 AM
As a fan of a team who recently spent a #1 overall draft pick on a QB, I will echo this question. If you had to make a list of the 2006, 2007 and 2008 QB class, where would you rank them all?

2006 Class
Jay Cutler
Matt Leinart
Vince Young

2007 Class
JaMarcus Russell
Brady Quinn
Trent Edwards

2008 Class
Matt Ryan
Andre Woodson
Brian Brohm

I'll just assume you mean their prospect status...because obviously some people are going to use NFL production to grade the 06 prospects.

I would rank them like this...
JaMarcus Russell
Jay Cutler
Brady Quinn
Matt Ryan
Andre Woodson
Brian Brohm
Vince Young
Trent Edwards
Matt Lienart

Taking a look at the group. I really think JR and JC have the best tools more of your John Elway. I think Quinn and Ryan will be more of the Tom Brady. The bottom 5 really has to do with flavor. Woodson is a good prospect but could use a year or two to learn...Brohm imo could be successful starting right away...but only in the right system. I thought Vince was going to need about 3 years of learning to get the mental part of the game down. I loved Edwards as a prospect just felt he could make all the needed throws...but injuries left his draft status lower for me. Now the real question comes out...would I take Edwards over Lienart...I really don't know but Lienart is the only one of the afore mentioned who worried me making all the NFL throws...and while he is a good prospect...he just isn't in his companies class.

evershot
10-30-2007, 04:52 AM
You know Matt Ryan reminds me more of Chad Pennington before Chad had all of those injuries. Matt has always been more of a nickel and dime QB.

This isn't a knock on Matt Ryan because people forget Pennington was pretty good QB before the injuries.

Addict
10-30-2007, 05:36 AM
Ryan has more arm than Pennington.

How's Eric Ainge's stock doing thus far?

evershot
10-30-2007, 08:57 AM
What I'm comparing are their similar styles of play. They are both nickel and dime QB's. Before Pennington got injured he was the best at nickel and dime'n you to death. And that's what Matt Ryan is good at. His yards per completion shows that he is more of a nickel and dimer.

BucSappy
10-30-2007, 10:11 AM
Typical newbie. Always trying to make it personal. Other than immature and easily offended, who are you?

I think it's hilarious how Kentucky fans are coming out of the woodwork this year. They talk as if their team has been good this century. Kentucky football? WTF is that???

I have been a Kentucky football fan my whole life. I said that Woodson would be a Heisman contender when he was in high school. I was there when Kentucky lost to Ohio in 2004 and at rock bottom. I've been following this team as closely as a die hard can. Ever since the days of the demise of this team into probation thanks to overrated Hal Mumme and to the rise of this program when this stadium will be named after Rich Brooks.

We have more national championships than Hawaii has (even if it is half of one). I mean if Hawaii was in the SEC they would never ever win. What kind of a history does Hawaii have anyways. How long have you actually had a football program?

princefielder28
10-30-2007, 11:41 AM
I have been a Kentucky football fan my whole life. I said that Woodson would be a Heisman contender when he was in high school. I was there when Kentucky lost to Ohio in 2004 and at rock bottom. I've been following this team as closely as a die hard can. Ever since the days of the demise of this team into probation thanks to overrated Hal Mumme and to the rise of this program when this stadium will be named after Rich Brooks.

We have more national championships than Hawaii has (even if it is half of one). I mean if Hawaii was in the SEC they would never ever win. What kind of a history does Hawaii have anyways. How long have you actually had a football program?

Honestly how can you make a statement like that with Woodson being Heisman type in high school???

Sniper
10-30-2007, 12:14 PM
I have been a Kentucky football fan my whole life. I said that Woodson would be a Heisman contender when he was in high school. I was there when Kentucky lost to Ohio in 2004 and at rock bottom. I've been following this team as closely as a die hard can. Ever since the days of the demise of this team into probation thanks to overrated Hal Mumme and to the rise of this program when this stadium will be named after Rich Brooks.

We have more national championships than Hawaii has (even if it is half of one). I mean if Hawaii was in the SEC they would never ever win. What kind of a history does Hawaii have anyways. How long have you actually had a football program?

And today's overrating of the SEC is brought to you by...............BucSappy!

theogt
10-30-2007, 01:19 PM
Woodson > Brohm > Russell > Ryan > Quinn

sweetd20
10-30-2007, 03:40 PM
You know Matt Ryan reminds me more of Chad Pennington before Chad had all of those injuries. Matt has always been more of a nickel and dime QB.

This isn't a knock on Matt Ryan because people forget Pennington was pretty good QB before the injuries.


I hear what you are saying and Tom Brady has put himself up there with the greats of the game and his career has been made by nickel and diming defenses. To be a good QB in the NFL you have to be able to take what the defense gives you. A lot of big stat QBs that get by in college by exploiting inexperienced or inferior talent laden defenses bomb in the NFL. Once they start playing against faster and more complex defenses they just can't hack it and the success rate of the bomb down the field even by guys like Manning isn't that successful as far as completion %.

no love
10-30-2007, 05:56 PM
Woodson > Brohm > Russell > Ryan > Quinn

Wow. Gotta love them spread offenses huh?

Where does Alex Smith and Colt Brennan fit into this equation, speaking of guys who are/were in the spread.

I don't really see what makes Brohm or Woodson a better prospect than Russell, I just don't. Both of those guys are huge projects compared to Russell who might be able to be successful early because of his ridiculous physical skills. Unless you believe they have a higher upside than Russell, I don't see it.

Ryan I don't even know what to say, because he has average accuracy, average speed, average build, average arm strength and an uncanny ability to win. I almost don't wanna knock him for fear that he will be the next Tom Brady, but he definitely will need to get in the right system. Quinn is the opposite of Ryan, great build, athleticism, arm strength, though not really accuracy, but he seems like a great leader and for some reason I am really really high on him.

paparoach614
10-30-2007, 09:16 PM
I think the key to remember is that this QB draft has a lot more depth than last year's. Brohm, Woodson, Booty, Ryan and Henne are all solid, experienced guys who are proven winners. Dixon is a wildcard who could move up the board on "upside" and Colt Brennan will enamor someone. Erik Ainge could also slide into the first three rounds.

Overall, I think this draft will be about quarterbacks, especially since teams are calling up Tim Rattay, Vinny Testaverde and Drew Bledsoe...there is a dearth of reliable depth at the QB position, and this draft has a bunch of solid signal callers.

dre1614
10-31-2007, 06:13 AM
Zac Robinson will be a good one by the time he leaves OSU.

Also keep an eye out for Redshirt Freshman Christian Ponder out of FSU, he is a Tom Brady clone.

BucSappy
10-31-2007, 11:16 AM
Honestly how can you make a statement like that with Woodson being Heisman type in high school???

I played basketball with him at North Hardin and I knew of the kind of leader he was. I knew he had the physical tools to dominate the college game. If Kentucky could get any talent around him I knew he would make some serious noise. I thought he would be one of the best quarterbacks in the country when he was a senior...but then again I am sure someone in Florida said Kyle Wright would be a Heisman candidate when he was in high school so you just never know...but I really thought Dre' was a special player early in his career.

D-Unit
11-06-2007, 03:32 PM
For the critic's of Colt Brennan's system...

http://starbulletin.com/2007/11/06/sports/story03.html

"When June Jones tuned in to the hyped NFL matchup of undefeated New England and Indianapolis on Sunday, he immediately noticed something familiar.

"So, I find it interesting now when I turn on the game, (New England) is running our offense," the Hawaii football coach said with a wry grin at the podium of the weekly Honolulu Quarterback Club luncheon. "(Patriots coach Bill Belichick) kind of learned what it takes to move the football."

ones had been asked what he thought of Belichick, whose placid and stoic demeanor was compared to his own.

The coach paused and weighed the question, proving the analogy somewhat justified.

"He's kind of a cerebral guy, who watches and studies," Jones said, then added that in several games coaching with the Houston Oilers (as an assistant) and later as head coach of the Atlanta Falcons, he had never lost to a Belichick-coached team.

"When I got my head job at Atlanta (1994-96), he was the head coach at Cleveland," Jones said. "We would go to Cleveland and spend two weeks there and practice against him. The reason he wanted to practice against us was because he couldn't stop us, and he kind of always wanted to know and watch how we did things."

neko4
11-06-2007, 03:44 PM
I kinda feel like GB runs a system similar to Hawaii's
We atleast throw it as much as they do

Staubach12
11-10-2007, 03:52 PM
My new QB rankings, by the way:

1st tier
1. Brian Brohm
2. Andre Woodson
3. Brian Brohm
2nd tier
4. Dennis Dixon
5. Colt Brennan
6. Chad Henne
3rd tier
7. John David Booty
8. Sam Keller
9. Erik Ainge

Dixon has been flying up my list lately. Wouldn't it be nice if (hypothetically) Pat White could bulk up and have a year like that? He's got tools...

BamaFalcon59
11-10-2007, 04:07 PM
I really like Brohm, even though he isn't my first choice in the draft for the Falcons. Stays calm when down, has a good demeanor. Accurate, appropriate arm strength on his passes, and generally smart.

The biggest negatives on him for me would be locking on to a certain receiver (ie Harry Douglas), and not having a great distance arm. As in he can bullet it but he can't throw as far as a lot of QBs. But everything else I like.

MaxV
11-10-2007, 04:23 PM
My new QB rankings, by the way:

1st tier
1. Brian Brohm
2. Andre Woodson
3. Brian Brohm
2nd tier
4. Dennis Dixon
5. Colt Brennan
6. Chad Henne
3rd tier
7. John David Booty
8. Sam Keller
9. Erik Ainge

Dixon has been flying up my list lately. Wouldn't it be nice if (hypothetically) Pat White could bulk up and have a year like that? He's got tools...

You have Brohm 1st and 3rd.

I also disagree with you regarding Dixon. Yes, he's playing great in college, but I don't think he'll be a successful QB in the NFL. I think a position change is very possible.