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bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 09:37 AM
A couple of quick hits. Was gonna post this in Shiv's thread but didn't want to take away from his discussion.

- Eli needs to cut down on the INTs. 11 TDs is great. 8 Ints is not. Thats the one aspect of his game thats holding him back froming being at an elite level. The stat that he forces half of those 8 ints before the half is alarming to me. To me, that means he's forcing throws for a quick score before halftime. He's got to learn not to do that.

Another alarming stat on him was his qb rating after PA pass. This further reiterates my belief that if we built our offense around the run game the way Pittsburgh and SD have, Eli would put up much better numbers. Theres no doubt in my mind that Eli will be fine and the future qb in New York for years to come. But the Ints have to come down.

- Sean Taylor is playing like the best FS in the league this season. Dare I say, better than Ed Reed. The weight loss and scheme change has done wonders for him. Hes not second guessing himself anymore, and theyre finally letting him do what he does best, and thats use his natural ability to ballhawk.

- As impressive as Willis, and Okeye have been playing, Aaron Ross absolutely deserves his name in the DROY runnings. He's been a shutdown CB as a rookie, not giving up any TDs. He doesn't even give up catches. He's been a complete shutdown CB already. And he has 3 INTs on the season, and I believe 1 (maybe 2) sacks. Granted he covers the #2 WR on the other team, but the results are still extremely impressive. In my eyes, what he's doing is more impressive than Willis or Okeye.

- The only team that has a chance of beating the Pats are the Colts. You can't stop them, you can only outscore them. And the Colts have that ability.

- Don't sleep on the Steelers and Jaguars

- This one will be controversial. But for awhile now, we've heard that Carson Palmer is an elite qb. That its Peyton, Brady, Carson, and everyone else. That those 3 are on "another level".

But what has Carson done to merit the same acclaim as Peyton or Brady? Quite honestly, outside that one 30 TD year, he hasn't proven he deserves the same cred as those 2. He has a potent offense, and doesn't put up Peyton or Brady numbers with it. His TD/Int ratio hasn't been that great. Nor has his team been that great. Brady and Peyton win, regardless of other circumstances. Carson does not.

How about this for a stat? Carson has 12 TD and 8 Ints, and a qb rating of 88.1 this season. I know and expect him to pick it up, but I honestly don't think he's worthy of his status that he's achieved, being named with the likes of Peyton and Brady.

- Shawne Merriman is still getting the job done despite the steroid scandal and lack of blitzing from Cottrell. 5.5 sacks on the season is still very impressive through 6 games. And he's dropping into coverage alot more this season. He's not being used the same way as last season, so all the nonsense of him only getting sacks because he justs blitzes every play is false. And he's just warming up. I expect him to break out soon.

- Speaking of which, DeMarcus Ware is looking better than ever. Same sack total as Merriman. He's finally putting together pressure to go along with his complete game. He's been an absolute force this season, and the scheme change has greatly benefitted him. You really couldn't go wrong between him and Merriman. Both were really great prospects, and both are gonna be tremendous players. I would still take Merriman over him, but the gap really isn't that wide. Its almost a coin toss.

- With all the talk about how big strong defenses are yesterdays news, NE proves that the strength based 3-4 is still very much a dominant front in this league with the right players. DEs that weight 310 lbs, NT that weighs 330ish, OLBs that weigh 260 LBs, ILBs that are 240ish and 270?

Thats one big front 7. That front 7 is huge. Hell, all the LBs except 1 can pass off as DEs. Yet theyre still dominant against both the run and pass. And theyre the most versatile front in the league. Easily. I can't say it enough, speed means nothing if youre running the wrong direction. Instincts and intelligence supercedes speed. Of course you need some speed, you can't be slow, but the best defenses in the league are still built the old school way.

- Everyone's forgetting about the Colts. They might be as pretty as the Pats, but theyre just as impressive.

Auron
10-16-2007, 09:54 AM
Eli is a bit of a risk taker, but he's still fairly young and I think he'll learn to be more patient with experience. Sometimes as a QB it's good to be aggressive, but you also need to wisely choose when to take your shots based on what the Defense is giving you.

Ross has been outstanding since being put in the line-up, he has good ball skills and reacts well to passes in the air. How I really, wish the Saints could've managed to get him on Draft day..we still have CB problems. Oh well hopefully Usama Young pans out for us.

Pats/Colts is shaping up to be epic.

Agreed on Carson. I think he is a very good Quarterback, but he's not Elite yet. It doesn't look like he's stepping into his throws with full authority sometimes. He had one throw vs. the Chiefs to Chad Johnson on a 18 yard Out which sailed, and Patrick Surtain broke on it too easily to pick it off. Also he has a tendency to force some throws when his teams gets down. However I can't be too critical of Palmer, the Offensive line is just collapsing around him right now. (Levi Jones was abused by Jared Allen) and without Rudi Johnson he had no running game to work with.

Agreed on the Colts, they're winning some tough games and their Defense has been stepping up. I think we'll see just how good they are when they play Jacksonville on the road next Monday Night, another team that's playing some really good ball.

megansett56BC
10-16-2007, 10:00 AM
if pats and colts are undefeated then (which seems likely) it could go down as the best regular season game ever.

i also agree with the palmer assessment.

and yes eli throws a lot of picks... but let's not forget who just set the record for career ints. i'm not saying that they are anything like each other, but it's just a thing to point out. however, i agree he won't be elite until he fixes that.

and one observation: deangelo hall makes a lot of highlight reel plays, but he is not an elite corner. he looked bad last night aside from that pick.

Geo
10-16-2007, 10:06 AM
I've disliked the Bengals offense for some time, they are too enthralled by the deep ball and the jackpot play. It reflects their immaturity, they need to be more methodical and effective as an offense in moving the chains. That's exactly why a team like the Patriots can come into their stadium and amazingly blank them 0-7 on third downs. That should never happen, even if the 1986 Giants walk through that door. They really grind my gears how they waste that great talent they have, but it never gets any darn pub because of the "Sportscenter" plays that everyone cares about. The tight end seems to be as irrelevant in their offense as possible. The Bengals offense needs to study the Colts and Patriots offenses.

They don't run the ball enough, despite having a great back like Rudi Johnson and a back-up like Keny Watson who might even be more explosive and a better pass catcher. Plus Chris Perry should be coming off the PUP this week, it's a shame they don't run it more and help keep Carson from getting battered because they want to run more freaking five and seven-step drop pass attempts.

P-L
10-16-2007, 10:08 AM
- This one will be controversial. But for awhile now, we've heard that Carson Palmer is an elite qb. That its Peyton, Brady, Carson, and everyone else. That those 3 are on "another level".

But what has Carson done to merit the same acclaim as Peyton or Brady? Quite honestly, outside that one 30 TD year, he hasn't proven he deserves the same cred as those 2. He has a potent offense, and doesn't put up Peyton or Brady numbers with it. His TD/Int ratio hasn't been that great. Nor has his team been that great. Brady and Peyton win, regardless of other circumstances. Carson does not.

How about this for a stat? Carson has 12 TD and 8 Ints, and a qb rating of 88.1 this season. I know and expect him to pick it up, but I honestly don't think he's worthy of his status that he's achieved, being named with the likes of Peyton and Brady.

THANK YOU. Finally, someone realizes it. You don''t know how stunned I was the last time we had a QB thread, and about 35%-40% of the people said that Carson Palmer is the second best QB in the league, behind Manning. I think Palmer is the third best QB, but he is on a different tier than Manning and Brady. There are only two elite QB in the league, and they play for the Colts and the Patriots.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-16-2007, 10:23 AM
I think that the drop between Brady/Manning and everyone else is rediculous. No ones even close which is why I think QB top 5/10 rankings are pointless so many guys with a legit case for a high ranking but still no where near Brady/Manning. All of these guys could legitemately be top 5 qbs after the season: Palmer, Favre, Garcia, McNabb (when healthy), Romo, Brees, Bulger (when healthy and on a team with an oline), Big Ben, Rivers, Cutler and Eli.

Number 10
10-16-2007, 10:27 AM
Agreed on Eli for the most part...I was talking about it during the game last night and it'll probably be the centerpiece of my MVN write-up this week. These INTs are going to hurt us when we are playing good teams....let's not forget who we've played over the past few weeks.

But in his defense, he takes just as many if not more shots downfield than any QB in the league and that is going to result in a high number of INTs. Not defending him or anything...not that he needs it because he is outplaying many of the outsiders' expectations. Once he cuts out the bonehead INTs (staring down receivers under the 2 minute mark, throwing downfield while falling down) he is going to be a top 10 QB in this league, at worst.

Surprised to see Jaworksi label him a top 8 QB in the NFL....but I'm saving my rankings until the end of the season. Eli won't be Peyton, ever...but the similarities early on in their careers is almost stunning. The control they both had early on in their careers was more than other young QBs...they both are great with playaction, and they both start off their careers with high INTs but still have plenty of success.

JK17
10-16-2007, 10:36 AM
A couple of quick hits. Was gonna post this in Shiv's thread but didn't want to take away from his discussion.

- Eli needs to cut down on the INTs. 11 TDs is great. 8 Ints is not. Thats the one aspect of his game thats holding him back froming being at an elite level. The stat that he forces half of those 8 ints before the half is alarming to me. To me, that means he's forcing throws for a quick score before halftime. He's got to learn not to do that.

Another alarming stat on him was his qb rating after PA pass. This further reiterates my belief that if we built our offense around the run game the way Pittsburgh and SD have, Eli would put up much better numbers. Theres no doubt in my mind that Eli will be fine and the future qb in New York for years to come. But the Ints have to come down.

Yeah, as much as I hate him, Eli has loooked like he really took a lot of steps to improve this year. How much Plaxico playing up to potential is helping Eli, or if Eli is helping Plax can be debated, but aside from a bunch of INT's, he's looking like a much better QB. Then again though, he's always looked better the first half of the season, I believe.

- This one will be controversial. But for awhile now, we've heard that Carson Palmer is an elite qb. That its Peyton, Brady, Carson, and everyone else. That those 3 are on "another level".

But what has Carson done to merit the same acclaim as Peyton or Brady? Quite honestly, outside that one 30 TD year, he hasn't proven he deserves the same cred as those 2. He has a potent offense, and doesn't put up Peyton or Brady numbers with it. His TD/Int ratio hasn't been that great. Nor has his team been that great. Brady and Peyton win, regardless of other circumstances. Carson does not.

How about this for a stat? Carson has 12 TD and 8 Ints, and a qb rating of 88.1 this season. I know and expect him to pick it up, but I honestly don't think he's worthy of his status that he's achieved, being named with the likes of Peyton and Brady.

I'll step up and admit I was one of the people who said Palmer was the #2 QB in the league. And I'll step up now and admit I was wrong. Having seen a lot more of him then I have in year's past, and a lot more of Brady as well its clear who the better QB is. Palmer is inaccurate on a lot of his throws, and throws a lot of costly picks for every touchdown he throws. Good Quarterback, but clearly, not a top two in the league.

Shawne Merriman is still getting the job done despite the steroid scandal and lack of blitzing from Cottrell. 5.5 sacks on the season is still very impressive through 6 games. And he's dropping into coverage alot more this season. He's not being used the same way as last season, so all the nonsense of him only getting sacks because he justs blitzes every play is false. And he's just warming up. I expect him to break out soon.

- Speaking of which, DeMarcus Ware is looking better than ever. Same sack total as Merriman. He's finally putting together pressure to go along with his complete game. He's been an absolute force this season, and the scheme change has greatly benefitted him. You really couldn't go wrong between him and Merriman. Both were really great prospects, and both are gonna be tremendous players. I would still take Merriman over him, but the gap really isn't that wide. Its almost a coin toss.

I'm glad someone acknowledged that Merriman is now becoming the "complete LB" that people used as an excuse for why he had so many sacks. I was "worried" that because his sack total, although good, would still fall under criticism because its not Shawne Merrman numbers from last year. But, like you said, he's being dropped into coverage frequently, and doing fairly well with it at that.

Ware also is tremendous and your right. There is no huge gap between the two. You couldn't go wrong taking either one of these guys on your team.


Just picked out a couple of those I felt I was qualified to talk about, so I don't make an idiot of myself on the other subjects I don't know as well..

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 11:45 AM
Eli is a bit of a risk taker, but he's still fairly young and I think he'll learn to be more patient with experience. Sometimes as a QB it's good to be aggressive, but you also need to wisely choose when to take your shots based on what the Defense is giving you.

Ross has been outstanding since being put in the line-up, he has good ball skills and reacts well to passes in the air. How I really, wish the Saints could've managed to get him on Draft day..we still have CB problems. Oh well hopefully Usama Young pans out for us.

Pats/Colts is shaping up to be epic.

Agreed on Carson. I think he is a very good Quarterback, but he's not Elite yet. It doesn't look like he's stepping into his throws with full authority sometimes. He had one throw vs. the Chiefs to Chad Johnson on a 18 yard Out which sailed, and Patrick Surtain broke on it too easily to pick it off. Also he has a tendency to force some throws when his teams gets down. However I can't be too critical of Palmer, the Offensive line is just collapsing around him right now. (Levi Jones was abused by Jared Allen) and without Rudi Johnson he had no running game to work with.

Agreed on the Colts, they're winning some tough games and their Defense has been stepping up. I think we'll see just how good they are when they play Jacksonville on the road next Monday Night, another team that's playing some really good ball.

Youre right, this is a big game for the Colts. They win this one, and theyre right there with the Pats in my eyes. Whats lost in the discussion is that while the Patriots offense seems unstoppable, its like we've forgotten just how dominant the Colts offense is as well. Ive come to the conclusion that to beat the Pats, you gotta outscore them.

And the Colts can do that. The past 3 years, the Colts have their #. Adalius Thomas improves their unit, but not by so much that the Colts can't drive the ball down the field.

Couple the fact that they have the front 4 to rush Brady, and anything is possible. Of course, they MUST have a healthy Bob Sanders to pull it off, but Im not counting them out.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 11:50 AM
if pats and colts are undefeated then (which seems likely) it could go down as the best regular season game ever.

i also agree with the palmer assessment.

and yes eli throws a lot of picks... but let's not forget who just set the record for career ints. i'm not saying that they are anything like each other, but it's just a thing to point out. however, i agree he won't be elite until he fixes that.

and one observation: deangelo hall makes a lot of highlight reel plays, but he is not an elite corner. he looked bad last night aside from that pick.


Yeah, he simply has to cut down on the INTs. Of course, a stronger commitment to the run game would help his cause. We ran very effectively on the Falcons, and we shouldve ran even more. One thing I will say though, that im happy about is that our pass:run ratio is much better this year opposed to last year, in terms of meaningful runs. Last year we did a bunch of meaningless runs at the end of the game to make the ratio seem alot closer than it truely was.

Actually, Hall has been stellar this season prior to this game. Granted he didn't have a great game, but it wasn't horrible either. I didn't get why he wasn't on Plax more. He gave up underneath catches, but didn't get beat deep. And let's not forget, prior to this game, he has been absolutely shutdown against every other receiver he went against. He's not a great person or team player, but he is a great corner. And the way other CBs have been playing this year, he's actually played better than all of them not named Champ Bailey up to this point in the season.

Having that said, I wouldn't want him on my team. Too much of a lockerroom cancer.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 11:52 AM
THANK YOU. Finally, someone realizes it. You don''t know how stunned I was the last time we had a QB thread, and about 35%-40% of the people said that Carson Palmer is the second best QB in the league, behind Manning. I think Palmer is the third best QB, but he is on a different tier than Manning and Brady. There are only two elite QB in the league, and they play for the Colts and the Patriots.

Exactly. I don't want to come off as if Im ripping him. He is still the 3rd best in the league. But he simply isn't on the same tier as Brady and Peyton, and shouldn't be labeled as such.

I've disliked the Bengals offense for some time, they are too enthralled by the deep ball and the jackpot play. It reflects their immaturity, they need to be more methodical and effective as an offense in moving the chains. That's exactly why a team like the Patriots can come into their stadium and amazingly blank them 0-7 on third downs. That should never happen, even if the 1986 Giants walk through that door. They really grind my gears how they waste that great talent they have, but it never gets any darn pub because of the "Sportscenter" plays that everyone cares about. The tight end seems to be as irrelevant in their offense as possible. The Bengals offense needs to study the Colts and Patriots offenses.

They don't run the ball enough, despite having a great back like Rudi Johnson and a back-up like Keny Watson who might even be more explosive and a better pass catcher. Plus Chris Perry should be coming off the PUP this week, it's a shame they don't run it more and help keep Carson from getting battered because they want to run more freaking five and seven-step drop pass attempts.

This is also true. The OC and playcalling and oline definately have not helped him. And they desperately need Henry back as their 3rd option, because the TE is meaningless in their system.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 11:57 AM
He has improved every year since coming into the league in this aspect but Tom Coughlin and Pope may have turned Jeremey Shockey into the best blocking TE in the league. And I'm just referring to the so-called "every down" TEs. I know most teams have their specialized blocking TEs who are more smaller OTs because they can't do anything else. Shockey last night was mauling people all over the field as well as having maybe he best receiving game of the year. Sealing the outside on all those off tackle runs. Jacobs wouldn't even get touched for 5 yards. Ward could have skipped into the end zone from 8 yards out.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 11:57 AM
Yeah, as much as I hate him, Eli has loooked like he really took a lot of steps to improve this year. How much Plaxico playing up to potential is helping Eli, or if Eli is helping Plax can be debated, but aside from a bunch of INT's, he's looking like a much better QB. Then again though, he's always looked better the first half of the season, I believe.



I'll step up and admit I was one of the people who said Palmer was the #2 QB in the league. And I'll step up now and admit I was wrong. Having seen a lot more of him then I have in year's past, and a lot more of Brady as well its clear who the better QB is. Palmer is inaccurate on a lot of his throws, and throws a lot of costly picks for every touchdown he throws. Good Quarterback, but clearly, not a top two in the league.



I'm glad someone acknowledged that Merriman is now becoming the "complete LB" that people used as an excuse for why he had so many sacks. I was "worried" that because his sack total, although good, would still fall under criticism because its not Shawne Merrman numbers from last year. But, like you said, he's being dropped into coverage frequently, and doing fairly well with it at that.

Ware also is tremendous and your right. There is no huge gap between the two. You couldn't go wrong taking either one of these guys on your team.


Just picked out a couple of those I felt I was qualified to talk about, so I don't make an idiot of myself on the other subjects I don't know as well..

Very true on Eli. Its way too early to feel good about him because of his 2nd half struggles. I have confidence in him, but if he does in fact struggle again, I'll have my worries. I believe the Air Coryell system we run leads to alot of his struggles in December. You can't run Air Coryell in NY, or in Chicago. Its just too windy and cold to execute. If you want to run a high powered offense in cold weather environments a WCO type of system is ideal. You can't hurl it deep every other play when the wind is blowing like that.

Look at history too. Most of the successful passing attacks in cold weather environments were WCO style systems. Favre in GB, Brady in NE, Elway in Denver, Paul Brown in Cleveland, etc.

Shawne Merriman is a dominant player. In my opinion, the most dominant rushbacker since LT. He's no Lawrence Taylor, but who is? He'll establish himself as the 2nd best rushbacker in NFL history when the dust settles.

Agreed on Eli for the most part...I was talking about it during the game last night and it'll probably be the centerpiece of my MVN write-up this week. These INTs are going to hurt us when we are playing good teams....let's not forget who we've played over the past few weeks.

But in his defense, he takes just as many if not more shots downfield than any QB in the league and that is going to result in a high number of INTs. Not defending him or anything...not that he needs it because he is outplaying many of the outsiders' expectations. Once he cuts out the bonehead INTs (staring down receivers under the 2 minute mark, throwing downfield while falling down) he is going to be a top 10 QB in this league, at worst.

Surprised to see Jaworksi label him a top 8 QB in the NFL....but I'm saving my rankings until the end of the season. Eli won't be Peyton, ever...but the similarities early on in their careers is almost stunning. The control they both had early on in their careers was more than other young QBs...they both are great with playaction, and they both start off their careers with high INTs but still have plenty of success.

Let's not jinx him :) I have confidence in him, it would just be nice if he developed a little quicker than he has. But i have alot of faith in Eli.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 11:59 AM
He has improved every year since coming into the league in this aspect but Tom Coughlin and Pope may have turned Jeremey Shockey into the best blocking TE in the league. And I'm just referring to the so-called "every down" TEs. I know most teams have their specialized blocking TEs who are more smaller OTs because they can't do anything else. Shockey last night was mauling people all over the field as well as having maybe he best receiving game of the year. Sealing the outside on all those off tackle runs. Jacobs wouldn't even get touched for 5 yards. Ward could have skipped into the end zone from 8 yards out.

Shockey, out of the top 5 TEs in the league (Gonz, Winslow, Gates, Witten and Shock in no order) is the best blocking TE of the bunch. People have overlooked how dominant of a blocker he's become.

Sorry to the others who I haven't gotten to. Its hard replying to everyone.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 12:00 PM
I'm not so shocked that he is a top 8 QB according to Jaws. Although I'm guessing he would be 8th. In the up and down world of the NFL these days, QB play is so hit or miss. Its so hard to find a good one. And many of the guys who have been some of the betters QBs over the last 3-4 years have struggled mightily recently.

Number 10
10-16-2007, 12:01 PM
I think Heap might be a better blocker than Shockey, but Gonzo has taken a step back there. If anyone says Shockey is not a dominant blocker after last night, they're simply not watching him at all or they are a hater, plain and simple.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 12:02 PM
Shockey, out of the top 5 TEs in the league (Gonz, Winslow, Gates, Witten and Shock in no order) is the best blocking TE of the bunch. People have overlooked how dominant of a blocker he's become.

Sorry to the others who I haven't gotten to. Its hard replying to everyone.

Agreed. I was going through the top TEs in the league who are on the field almost every down, and was trying to think of someone who is a better block. I couldn't. Last night's domination by Jeremey led me to finally state what I've kind of been believing all along.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 12:03 PM
I think Heap might be a better blocker than Shockey, but Gonzo has taken a step back there. If anyone says Shockey is not a dominant blocker after last night, they're simply not watching him at all or they are a hater, plain and simple.

Thats true about Heap. Haven't seen much of him this year. He is always more banged up than Shockey and that's hard to do.

Mr. Stiller
10-16-2007, 12:09 PM
Agreed. I was going through the top TEs in the league who are on the field almost every down, and was trying to think of someone who is a better block. I couldn't. Last night's domination by Jeremey led me to finally state what I've kind of been believing all along.

Homerism aside I think you're overlooking Heath Miller. He's even coming on strong as a receiver this season.

I think He has to put up some great #'s but I think he's worthy of a Trip to Hawaii. I think Gates, Winslow and it's between Heap/Gonzo/Miller.

Miller is the best blocker of those 5 and right now he's receiving better than Heap/Gonzo.

DMWSackMachine
10-16-2007, 12:19 PM
I think that the Colts haven't been that much less impressive on the season than the Pats, and they have played a much tougher sched. They have gone against TB, Ten, Den and Houston, all fairly solid teams to some extent or another, and they have beaten them fairly resoundingly. The Patriots have been legitimately running up the score on people, going for TDs on 4th and goal late in the 4th qrt with the game decided in all but one or two games this year, and legitimately trying to embarrass people after the fact. I don't know how this has not been more of a story (probably because people are too busy talking about whether or not they are the best team ever.....ugh), but it should be.

Meanwhile, the Colts are on cruise control. If anything, they have switched roles with the Pats this season. The Colts now understand that the regular season doesn't mean much in the big-scheme of things. They have had their run at perfection, and seen it all come crashing down from one Murphy's Law game in the post-season that was likely brought on by overconfidence stemming from their domination in the regular year. They know what its about now, and they are just taking-care-of-business.

The Pats are killing people to take out their anger from Camera-gate, as well as their bad showings in 05 and 06. They are turning fairly close games into blowouts with late TDs, and they are hiding their suspect running game and defense with an unstoppable ball-control passing attack and a weak schedule.

Even with all that, the Pats are among the most impressive teams I have ever seen, because of the unbelievable proficiency of their passing game. But let's get real here, its possible that the Jets, Phins, and Bills are all bottom 10, maybe even bottom FIVE in the league. That is nearly half of their schedule on the year, and constitutes 2 of their 6 games so far (along with a better-than-expected-but-still-pretty-bad Brown team, and the reeling Bengals). I am duly impressed, but they were matched punch for punch by the Cowboys through 3 quarters, even with the benefit of bad officiating/stupid penalties by Dallas that killed multiple Cowboy drives while sustaining a couple of Patriot drives.

I am happy to give the Patriots the props that they deserve, but their cosmetic boosting of wins is making their stats look better than they should be (though they would still be massively impressive). They still have 3 games against a (surprisingly) good NFC East division, and road games against the Colts and Pittsburgh. If they run the table, they will deserve all the praise heaped upon them.

Even then, I can't escape the impression that this team is the antithesis of everything the 3 SB Patriot teams stood for.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 12:23 PM
A few other things I noticed. Is Michael Jenkins not almost a complete bust by now. The guy might have the worst hands in football. Giants dominated last night especially considering 7 points were off one huge run, but it could have been closer if Jenkins and some of the other Falcon targets could catch some balls.

I only saw part of the Seattle game because I fell asleep, but has Shaun Alexander hit that wall? Did losing Hutchinson make that much of a difference?

Look at the Browns. They have extremely nice pieces there. Braylon is breaking out right in front of our eyes. Winslow is already a stud. Quinn is going to inherit a lot of talent because Derek Anderson is not the answer. He is extremely fortunate right now.

Last thing. I don't think Maroney is all that hurt anymore. I think the Pats were literally saving him for the stretch run knowing they could win without him. That might have to end though of Sammy Morris misses any significant time.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 12:27 PM
Miller and Heap are both great blocking TEs. But theyre not top 5 TEs in the league, thats why I think we weren't including them in the discussion.

But I love both of em. Im a huge Miller fan especially. One of the most underrated players in the league.

Geo
10-16-2007, 12:28 PM
The Browns offensive line is really giving their skill position players the opportunities to succeed, especially their young studs in Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow Jr. It's a great story this season.

Anyone else think the Browns will try to sign Michael "The Burner" Turner this offseason? He's got a great blend of power and speed, he'd be a good fit for the Dawg Pound. Plus the Browns don't have a 1st round pick in the 08 Draft, but signing Turner could be just as good.

Of course, their defense still needs a lot more talent. But as long as their offense can keep doing well, that will excite the fans and Crennel can keep his job, giving him and Phil Savage time to continue making the defense better through the Draft.

Edit: Keep in mind the Browns still have LeCharles Bentley who is now eligible to come off the PUP list.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 12:29 PM
I also thought Bellichick was classless in doing that.

Being a jerk is one thing, but being classless is another. Bellichick is crossing the jerk line and stepping into the classless territory.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 12:31 PM
The Browns offensive line is really giving their skill position players the opportunities to succeed, especially their young studs in Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow Jr. It's a great story this season.

Anyone else think the Browns will try to sign Michael "The Burner" Turner this offseason? He's got a great blend of power and speed, he'd be a good fit for the Dawg Pound. Plus the Browns don't have a 1st round pick in the 08 Draft, but signing Turner could be just as good.

Of course, their defense still needs a lot more talent. But as long as their offense can keep doing well, that will excite the fans and Crennel can keep his job, giving him and Phil Savage time to continue making the defense better through the Draft.

You know....thats a damn good point on Turner. He's be a perfect fit.

And youre absolutely right about the oline. Thats why they can finally put up points. Their qb is standing up.

Geo
10-16-2007, 12:32 PM
Well, expect Belichick to crush the Dolphins in Miami this week.

Don't forget: the Dolphins beat the Patriots 21-0 last year in Miami. You think that team will forget that? John Beck, get ready to play, son. Belichick is going to make him some Lemonade.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 12:36 PM
Well, expect Belichick to crush the Dolphins in Miami this week.

Don't forget: the Dolphins beat the Patriots 21-0 last year in Miami. You think that team will forget that? John Beck, get ready to play, son. Belichick is going to make him some Lemonade.

I dunno about that. I'm taking the Phins plus the 17 points. Pats will win but I think they have a bit of a letdown week.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 12:37 PM
yes! i thought i was going crazy. what kind of worthless, classless coach is lining up 5 wide with under a minute to go with a 14+ point lead? and then no one on espn/whatever says a word? it's disgusting. if i had one ounce less shame, i'd actually start hoping he gets brady injured doing that garbage.

Maybe if Wade Phillips didn't make comments earlier in the week, Bill would have let up on him.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 12:39 PM
*shrug* maybe if bill hadn't done this in every single game so far that would be a valid excuse/argument.

Yeah I said this the other day. Either way Phillips shouldn't talk but Bill is sending a message. It started up in Buffalo. If people around the league want to doubt the validity of his Super Bowls, he is going to embarass some teams around the league.

thule
10-16-2007, 12:48 PM
There is such a disparity at the QB position this year.

You have your 2 locks.

You have your hype guys in Palmer, McNabb, Brees, Hasselbeck

You have your up and coming guys...Cutler/Young/Campbell/Rivers

The you have guys that are playing great this year...Garrard and Anderson

The real guys who have lots of questions to answer like Eli/Romo/Schaub

Mr. Stiller
10-16-2007, 12:49 PM
Miller and Heap are both great blocking TEs. But theyre not top 5 TEs in the league, thats why I think we weren't including them in the discussion.

But I love both of em. Im a huge Miller fan especially. One of the most underrated players in the league.

Maybe not top 5. But then again, I would say Heath Miller is a top 5 blocking TE, and a top 10 Receiving TE.

It's hard to judge who's the best blocker, but the guys that go to Hawaii aren't there because they're the best blockers..

It's the #'s they put up and this year Miller is doing that. 3 Touchdowns, 17 Receptions for 241 yards. Averaging 14.2 yds per catch.

Thats not too shabby for a team that normally ignores TE's and isn't a passing team anyways.

Looking at it:

Heath Miller is
#10 Receiving yards (241) after 5 games in 6 weeks
#4 in Average Yards Per Catch (14.2)
#8 in Yards Per game (48.2)
#7T in TD's (3)
#5T in Catches of 20+ Yards (5)

I think with another season or two he should be in the top 5 frankly.

I don't think he gets the recognition because...

Gates is the only legitimate receiving threat SD has
Winslow is a WR playing TE.
Gonzo is going to go downhill fast.


Heap is injury prone.. and with a solid season Miller could be the #3 Receiving TE in the AFC.

as for Best blocking TE .. I'd lean towards Daniel Graham.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2007, 12:50 PM
There is such a disparity at the QB position this year.

You have your 2 locks.

You have your hype guys in Palmer, McNabb, Brees, Hasselbeck

You have your up and coming guys...Cutler/Young/Campbell/Rivers

The you have guys that are playing great this year...Garrard and Anderson

The real guys who have lots of questions to answer like Eli/Romo/Schaub

Glad you brought up Schaub's name.

Is it possible, that in the Eli/Rivers/Ben/Lossman/Schaub draft, that Schaub may be the best of the bunch?

He's been playing GREAT this year, and has all the tools to succeed. Im very impressed with him. Its a shame his name isn't thrown into this debate more often.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 12:58 PM
who (in terms of people who are actually loud enough for bill to hear) has doubted the validity of the super bowls? every single major media outlet has basically annointed the patriots the best team in the history of everything, have proclaimed that tom brady may be the single greatest human ever, and are generally incredulous that this team could've possibly done anything wrong. there might be one actuall sportswriter out of thousands a week who actually suggests the patriots haven't already won the next 47 super bowls.

Thats not true. ESPN and sportswriters are two totally different beasts. ESPN may have acted the way you explain, but I'm not sure Bill even pays attention to ESPN. Sportswriters were critical. And then like I said even though it started earlier, it didn't help that Phillips called it a blackmark to the team. Coaches are a tight knit fraternity. They aren't supposed to talk about each other the way Wade did.

Geo
10-16-2007, 12:59 PM
I've thought that Trent Edwards is the "Matt Schaub" of the past Draft, he was a steal for the Buffalo Bills at the bottom of the third round. Quick release, great accuracy.

I'm very interested to see who the Bills go with at quarterback this week, between JP Losman and Trent Edwards. I suspect it will be Losman, he's a veteran and has seen the Ravens defense before, plus they could go with Losman now and then Edwards but the opposite might prove more difficult. A few players on offense, Lee Evans most notably, have voiced support for Losman coming back.

But I could also see the team going with Edwards from here on out, I like the Tom Brady comparison that was made on last Monday Night. Mind you, the Tom Brady of today is a far cry from the Tom Brady in his second year in the league (don't even bring up the first year). Brady has developed a great deal for the better with each passing season.

JK17
10-16-2007, 01:02 PM
Yeah I said this the other day. Either way Phillips shouldn't talk but Bill is sending a message. It started up in Buffalo. If people around the league want to doubt the validity of his Super Bowls, he is going to embarass some teams around the league.

Actually, embarrasingly enough it started against us (San Diego) in week 2. Going for it on fourth and short, and fourth and goal towards the end of the game, with it clearly wrapped up....

CC.SD
10-16-2007, 01:03 PM
Glad you brought up Schaub's name.

Is it possible, that in the Eli/Rivers/Ben/Lossman/Schaub draft, that Schaub may be the best of the bunch?

He's been playing GREAT this year, and has all the tools to succeed. Im very impressed with him. Its a shame his name isn't thrown into this debate more often.


It definitely will be in the future, especially once Andre Johnson gets back.

Are we done saying the 2006 QB class has any chance against 2004 yet?

Big Ben; Ring.
Rivers; Pro Bowl, 17-5
Eli; okay, he's played well in the first half of the season. like always.
Schaub; Very promising start, all the tools.
Losman; has been up and down, but I'd say still a starter in this league.


Matt; Jury's still out. Way out.
Vince; Awesome, but still needs a lot of development
Cutler; At this point, on this board, I don't know how you don't say he's overrated. Blasphemy? He's lucky not to be 0-5 this year.

Jughead10
10-16-2007, 01:07 PM
at least in the few papers i read, i have yet to see anyone seriously question whether super bowls were tainted, and i have yet to see anyone suggest that brady/belichick are anything less than perfect human beings.

Well I do get the NY papers here and the Jets writers I guess were probably on it more than other markets. And rightfully so because the incident occured against them.

Geo
10-16-2007, 01:12 PM
Seeing as how this is an observations thread ... I'd like to see Cutler hit his receivers more in stride.

I chalk that up to how new his receiving core has been for him though, especially once Javon Walker got hurt and missed a number of games. He's hit Walker very well in stride, from what I saw, but not so much the other receivers. Once Cutler has time to work with and grow with his receiving core, I think that's a facet of his game that will improve. The offense needs the YAC.

But you don't want Brandon Stokley making jump balls, and then falling hard to the ground and getting hit hard by awaiting defenders. He has a hard enough time staying healthy.

Geo
10-16-2007, 01:22 PM
Another observation I'd like to point out:

The Seahawks lost defensive tackle Chuck Darby for the year, mind you they have already lost their valuable presence inside in Marcus Tubbs for a consecutive year. The great draft pick of Brandon Mebane is even better now as he will be a starter, but this hurts their depth and possibly their run defense as well for the remainder of the year.

Something to keep an eye on, I suppose.

osi+ap=allshallperish
10-16-2007, 01:23 PM
I love how you dismiss Eli and don't critique rivers while Eli has been playing very well this year short of his one or two stupid ints a game. While has had some good points but been largely over rated

PoopSandwich
10-16-2007, 01:45 PM
You know....thats a damn good point on Turner. He's be a perfect fit.

And youre absolutely right about the oline. Thats why they can finally put up points. Their qb is standing up.

I've been saying that since we dont have a first next year, we need to break the bank on Micheal Turner and draft defense.

PoopSandwich
10-16-2007, 01:47 PM
Heap is injury prone.. and with a solid season Miller could be the #3 Receiving TE in the AFC.

Winslow Gonzalez Gates.

CC.SD
10-16-2007, 01:47 PM
because you've actually watched him play and aren't judging him on the basis of our garbage defense. i don't know how YOU call him overrated when you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and how you've been doing this for several weeks now.

we won't even get into the fact that you just pimped rivers, who's been highly average at best this year.

Hostile much?

I have watched Cutler play, and I don't think he's God. Say whatever you want about the defense, it is awful. But he still only put up 3 points on a SD team that was absolutely REELING. I think he's got all the tools, and will one day be great, but right now he needs some work. The guy has yet to start a game without throwing an interception; I think when he pulls that feat off, then people can start talking him up more. This is pretty much the first time I've spoken on Cutler this season, so I think you must be confusing me for someone else. I have seen him play 3 games this year, which isn't all of them, but I don't get a chance to see all of them.

And how was I pimping Rivers? All I stated were facts; the guy was elected to the pro bowl, and his record is 17-5 as a starter. Are you disputing these realities?


edit: also, I was writing a one sentence blurb for every 2004/06 QB, not digging deep into the flaws of every player. I think Rivers is the most up/down quarterback in the league right now, and it needs to stop; one week he is AFC POTW, another he is garbage, and then he is tossing 3 TDs and 300 yards in a close loss, etc.

DMWSackMachine
10-16-2007, 02:00 PM
So far this year, I think its been more of the same with the 04 class, though slightly better "the same", of course. Eli will still look like Peyton one minute, and then, um,....well, Eli the next. He was terrific against Dallas, surprise!, but then played a horrible half against Washington, folllowed by a good one. Then a mediocre game against the Eagles in which he barely gave his team enough to win even though the defense turned in an all-time stat-stuffer performance. Then he was All-Pro in the 1st against Atlanta, and All-Bench in the 2nd. More of the same, but a little better overall.

Rivers has been exposed when he's had to move the team by himself. The guy right now needs more time to be a bell-cow QB that can take the team on his shoulders, and maybe he never will be. He's an example of how good a young QB can look when you give him time to watch, and then surround him with a good team that doesn't rely on him to win games. I like him, but he has been really bad at times this year.

Ben is the furthest along in his development, I think. Still, he is maddeningly inconsistent. I have each of these guys in important FF leagues, and each have saved AND screwed me in their own ways. I still think Ben is the best of the bunch, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that its a no comparison between 04 and 06. 04 is just further along right now, that's all. And 06 is finally starting to see the other side of the pancake after a darling-type start to their careers. I still think each of them will be fine.

Geo
10-16-2007, 02:24 PM
One observation I've been meaning to make for some time, I'm glad I remembered. Actually it's more of a reminder to those that have forgotten:

Randy Moss is playing on a one-year deal with the Patriots, he's an unrestricted free agent after this season.

DMWSackMachine
10-16-2007, 02:28 PM
True dat......but is there a chance in hell that they don't extend him? It will be interesting to see how that develops , as the Pats are notorious for holding out on long-term lucrative deals with players that are over 30. Knowing Randy, if they try that ****, it will get ugly fast. Maybe even a TO/Eagles 2.0 type deal. LMAO that would be cool!

Number 10
10-16-2007, 02:43 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to see Moss elsewhere at all....Pats have Welker-Stallworth-Jackson (people are forgetting about him)-Gaffney.....If Moss idiotically demands big time money, I don't think he'll get it

Moses
10-16-2007, 02:45 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to see Moss elsewhere at all....Pats have Welker-Stallworth-Jackson (people are forgetting about him)-Gaffney.....If Moss idiotically demands big time money, I don't think he'll get it

How would Moss be an idiot for demanding big-time money? He is the best wide receiver in the league at this point. Hence, he should be paid accordingly.

Number 10
10-16-2007, 02:53 PM
How would Moss be an idiot for demanding big-time money? He is the best wide receiver in the league at this point. Hence, he should be paid accordingly.

Him without Brady? I don't think he wants to go down that road again, he was all but forgotten up until the trade to NE.

Moses
10-16-2007, 02:58 PM
Him without Brady? I don't think he wants to go down that road again, he was all but forgotten up until the trade to NE.

He was forgotten while he was in Oakland. Who wouldn't be in that situation? He has been a top receiver in the league since his rookie season. Put him on a team with some semblance of a quarterback and offence and he will produce.

Number 10
10-16-2007, 03:01 PM
He was forgotten while he was in Oakland. Who wouldn't be in that situation? He has been a top receiver in the league since his rookie season. Put him on a team with some semblance of a quarterback and offence and he will produce.

Without Brady he is talked as amongst the best WRs in the game....with Brady there isn't anyone close to him.

Moses
10-16-2007, 03:03 PM
Without Brady he is talked as amongst the best WRs in the game....with Brady there isn't anyone close to him.

I'm not sure there was anybody close to him when he was in Minnesota. Regardless, he deserves top dollar and I'm sure he'll get it, whether it's in New England or not.

DMWSackMachine
10-16-2007, 03:44 PM
He'll get a lot, the likelihood is that he'll want 2-3 more mil a year more than NE is willing to offer. The answer to "where will he be next year?" lies there. If he takes the "Pat discount" to keep playing with Brady, then he will be there. If he says "I want the absolute most money I can get" then he will likely be somewhere else. I hope he goes for the money.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-16-2007, 06:54 PM
Cutler; At this point, on this board, I don't know how you don't say he's overrated. Blasphemy? He's lucky not to be 0-5 this year.


1. Denver clearly outplayed both teams they beat.
2. Cutler is not even close to a problem on the team. It's plainly obvious from watching that he is one of the very few brightspots the team has. He throws many of his picks because we're down late and need a play. That is a TERRIBLE situation for a young QB to be in, and we need to improve as a team ASAP.

Also, on the defensive side of the ball, we're #32 against the run, #1 against the pass. But if you look further into the numbers...

#22 in yards per pass attempt against.
#28 in completion percentage at an astonishing 67%.
#27 in opposing QB rating.

The only reason we have the #1 pass D is it's clearly better than our atrocious run D. This is evident based on:

20.6 pass attempts per game against. Fewest in the league.

Shiver
10-16-2007, 06:59 PM
Jay Cutler is having a similar season to Carson Palmer of '04.

Geo
10-16-2007, 07:04 PM
Is he? I wouldn't have particularly thought so myself.

Palmer came on very strong in the second half of 2004 which set up 2005, so let's see how Cutler does.

Shiver
10-16-2007, 07:06 PM
I remember Palmer of '04 quite well. QB throws for a ton of yards and makes great plays at times, but is pressured by his lousy defense to throw with reckless abandon and therefore throws several boneheaded passes as well.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-16-2007, 07:09 PM
I think it would really help our team to just let Cutler do what he's good at. He will lead us down the field pretty consistently, but then as soon as we're near the redzone, the running game takes over, and since the plays are poorly called, we get into third and long and Cutler goes shotgun. They should let Jay throw more often when he gets in close, and maybe let him roll out of the pocket(he's already one of the best throwers on the run) to make plays. He's having a better year than it looks like from the TD:INT thing.

neko4
10-16-2007, 07:13 PM
1. Denver clearly outplayed both teams they beat.
2. Cutler is not even close to a problem on the team. It's plainly obvious from watching that he is one of the very few brightspots the team has. He throws many of his picks because we're down late and need a play. That is a TERRIBLE situation for a young QB to be in, and we need to improve as a team ASAP.

Also, on the defensive side of the ball, we're #32 against the run, #1 against the pass. But if you look further into the numbers...

#22 in yards per pass attempt against.
#28 in completion percentage at an astonishing 67%.
#27 in opposing QB rating.

The only reason we have the #1 pass D is it's clearly better than our atrocious run D. This is evident based on:

20.6 pass attempts per game against. Fewest in the league.

I am no longer afraid of the Broncos D, i was stressn all weak, shoulda looked at the real numbers

ny10804
10-16-2007, 07:17 PM
Random note: 13 days from now, we'll be watching a very intriguing matchup: The vaunted Green Bay rushing attack (32nd) goes against the the iron curtain that is the Denver Bronco run defense (32nd). Gues we'll find out just how bad each is.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-16-2007, 07:18 PM
I am no longer afraid of the Broncos D, i was stressn all weak, shoulda looked at the real numbers

Yeah, I was originally thinking we might have a chance against the Packers. The Packers are a better team obviously, but their lack of a run game won't dominate our lack of a run defense. Then I saw those numbers and realised the only way we'll beat anyone is if we play up to our talent level.

Moses
10-16-2007, 08:52 PM
deshawn wynn for 432568 yards.

just tell whoever's coaching you now to run it straight at ian gold repeatedly. he might make 1/34 tackles.

League's worst rush offence versus the league's worst rush defence. I can't wait. :D

Gotta put my cash on the Packers rush offence in this one just because they'll likely be pretty scared to run slants against Champ Bailey.

SFbear
10-16-2007, 09:34 PM
it's a good bet. the fact that anyone is even questionable on it suggests to me that they don't yet understand how disgustingly bad our linebackers and safeties are. hopefully everyone gets it when all three running backs you people use go for 34857943 yards.

on the plus side, you can probably go a week without hearing about favre's ints, since he won't even need to attempt a pass.

You guys need to get good again. I miss when we could always rely on the Broncos to beat Belicheck in the playoffs.

Moses
10-16-2007, 09:56 PM
it's a good bet. the fact that anyone is even questionable on it suggests to me that they don't yet understand how disgustingly bad our linebackers and safeties are. hopefully everyone gets it when all three running backs you people use go for 34857943 yards.

on the plus side, you can probably go a week without hearing about favre's ints, since he won't even need to attempt a pass.

What happened to Ian Gold and D.J. Williams? They were good players from what I remember.

Number 10
10-16-2007, 11:00 PM
What about Cameron Vaughn NJX....has he seen an opportunity?

Number 10
10-16-2007, 11:09 PM
not to be a smartass, but who?

i'd assume not, although there's a chance he got in at some point in the san diego game after i'd decided i had better things to do.

actually just read his bio on broncos.com, sounds like another WLB. they're probably trying to plug him in at NT or QB or something. because guys who are better at WLB inevitably get pushed to other positions on our defense. apparently bates liked that non-functional bit of coyer's old scheme.

I liked him coming out of LSU a couple years ago...

7-11
10-16-2007, 11:26 PM
dare i say, it's time to show him the door?

Jesus Christ, have those words ever been come across the lips of anyone?

fondoffilm
10-17-2007, 03:27 AM
i used to suggest it regularly in the early plummer days.

Vikes'll take him.

BlindSite
10-17-2007, 03:30 AM
True dat......but is there a chance in hell that they don't extend him? It will be interesting to see how that develops , as the Pats are notorious for holding out on long-term lucrative deals with players that are over 30. Knowing Randy, if they try that ****, it will get ugly fast. Maybe even a TO/Eagles 2.0 type deal. LMAO that would be cool!

Yeah but if they get to the AFCCG and lose, he might want his best shot at getting a ring after getting so close.

yourfavestoner
10-17-2007, 03:13 PM
Do people not remember how turnover prone Peyton was early in his career? He was considered promising, but not great, until 2003, when he started taking much better care of the football.

bigbluedefense
10-17-2007, 05:39 PM
Do people not remember how turnover prone Peyton was early in his career? He was considered promising, but not great, until 2003, when he started taking much better care of the football.

Yes, but if any Giants fan even dares to make Eli to Peyton comparisons, we'd get tarred and feathered on this board.

And in all fairness, it wouldn't be fair to make that comparison anyway. He's gotta prove it on the field first.

DMWSackMachine
10-17-2007, 06:11 PM
While Peyton was a bit more TO prone in his earlier years than he is now, its not fair to make it out like that. His INT% was 2.8 and then 2.6 in his 2nd and 3rd years, numbers that will place you in the upper third of the league in most years. Plus he was putting up 90+QB ratings in those years, too.

I think what you are remembering was the two year span in 01 & 02 when he inexplicably regressed in this area and threw 42 picks over that span. Even so, people were still talking about him being elite in his 2nd year, as he was a top 5 passer on a 13-3 team. But I get your point.

CC.SD
10-17-2007, 06:20 PM
you also said "Are we done saying the 2006 QB class has any chance against 2004 yet?" suggesting that the 2006 class is garbage in comparison. then only used rivers record (which again, probably has little to do with the defense) and a pro bowl after three seasons to justify his inclusion. i can't imagine how you were trying to make rivers look good. mystifying.

Dude, he was elected to the Pro Bowl. He's led some pretty insane comebacks, which you should know. He hasn't played consistently this season, but I don't need to pimp him out, his accomplishments after 1 season and some change speak for themselves.

Am I going to have to go through this every time we compare the QB classes? I'm sorry I offended Cutler, I hope he doesn't hear about it. I think it should be a given by now that the 2004 class has been way more successful than 06. Even Eli is looking sharp-ish. (hey, he did commit 3 turnovers against Atlanta, the spoiled brat. :D) But that's natural, they've been around longer.


oh and you got me, I forgot I had that little blurb about Cutler. I do think it's natural that any time you go from a perennially winning team to a losing team, and there's been a quarterback change, you have to ask some questions. Obviously the Denver D is not looking good, but the O isn't looking great either. The units feed off each other, and changing QBs changes the whole chemistry of a team. Like I said, I still think Cutler will be great, but I don't think he is right now. Just one guy's opinion.

kmartin575
10-17-2007, 06:23 PM
I've disliked the Bengals offense for some time, they are too enthralled by the deep ball and the jackpot play. It reflects their immaturity, they need to be more methodical and effective as an offense in moving the chains. That's exactly why a team like the Patriots can come into their stadium and amazingly blank them 0-7 on third downs. That should never happen, even if the 1986 Giants walk through that door. They really grind my gears how they waste that great talent they have, but it never gets any darn pub because of the "Sportscenter" plays that everyone cares about. The tight end seems to be as irrelevant in their offense as possible. The Bengals offense needs to study the Colts and Patriots offenses.

They don't run the ball enough, despite having a great back like Rudi Johnson and a back-up like Keny Watson who might even be more explosive and a better pass catcher. Plus Chris Perry should be coming off the PUP this week, it's a shame they don't run it more and help keep Carson from getting battered because they want to run more freaking five and seven-step drop pass attempts.

I was amazed when the Chiefs held them to 1-11 on 3rd downs. They didn't get a conversion until the 4th quarter.

bigbluedefense
10-17-2007, 07:06 PM
Oh I forgot to mention this.

DO NOT SLEEP ON THE EAGLES

I cannot emphasize that enough. Theyre 2-3, despite a rash of injuries and poor performance. Theyll get better as McNabb gets more of a rhythm. They always start out poor. And like I said, its not like theyre 0-5, theyre 2-3. This is a 16 game season, there is plenty of time to go. Im not sleeping on them one bit, and wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the season, theyre making a serious run.

Lets not forget, the 2 teams that seem to be frontrunners for the division right now, the Cowboys and Giants, both have a history of playing poorly in the 2nd half of the season. This fight is far from over.

Geo
10-17-2007, 07:59 PM
I love the job Jim Johnson has done with the Eagles defense this year, it's a completely unheralded defense but they've done such a great job. They're probably top 5 in scoring defense, I'll have to check. Keep in mind how many points were scored that weren't allowed by the defense itself, thanks to their inept offense and special teams. Mind you, they've done this without Lito Sheppard since the first half of Week 1 and Brian Dawkins since the second half of Week 2, arguably the best corner and best free safety in the NFC.

The Eagles defense has put the team in great position to win every single game this year so far, and the rest of the team has been a dud. The Eagles offense is trash, they are as bad as I can remember for some time. McNabb is as inaccurate as ever, their receivers aren't anything special, they have nothing from the tight end position. The offensive line is underperforming to their talent level even more than usual. Essentially, it's all on Brian Westbrook. Who I love, one of my favorite players and an elite back in this league when healthy, but this team will not make the playoffs.

Which hopefully puts Andy Reid on some kind of hot seat, I can't believe the free pass he gets time and again. He should thank and hug Jim Johnson every day for coaching the Eagles, because Johnson has been the more important coach/factor to the Andy Reid era in Philadelphia by a mile. The defense has been the root for this team's success. Reid can't hold Johnson's playsheet as a coach.

Also, Peyton Manning's career stats (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/4256/career;_ylt=AivXUnaiq.CHyjw3cZrliqn.uLYF)

keylime_5
10-17-2007, 07:59 PM
Thats one big front 7. That front 7 is huge. Hell, all the LBs except 1 can pass off as DEs.

Bruschi, Vrabel, Thomas, Colvin......all 4 were DEs in college.

Geo
10-17-2007, 08:01 PM
I was amazed when the Chiefs held them to 1-11 on 3rd downs. They didn't get a conversion until the 4th quarter.
1 of 11? That's disgusting. No, disgusting doesn't even describe it. Pathetic, maybe.

And this is them coming off their bye, having evaluated themselves.

bigbluedefense
10-18-2007, 10:58 AM
I don't know if theyll win the division, but im sure as hell not counting them out. The Eagles always rise from the dead just when you think theyre out for the count. Their track record itself will not allow me to brush them off after 5 games.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they make the playoffs one way or another.

As for Reid, Ive always felt that he is the reason why theyre consistantly successful, but he's also the reason why theyll never win a SB. As much as Johnson's defense helps, its Andy Reid's GM'ing ability that replenishes the talent and keeps them playing at a high level every year. So its a double edged sword.

I'll say this much, if Reid is fired and they get a new GM, they won't have the consistency that they have now. So theyre in a tough spot as an organization.

BlindSite
10-19-2007, 04:02 AM
I like Eli a lot, having seen quite a few of his games I find myself saying one of two things, "Man this kid could win an MVP one day" and "wtf, how did he come to even get drafted, let alone go first overall?"

Usually on the same drive.

Dam8610
10-19-2007, 04:09 AM
- This one will be controversial. But for awhile now, we've heard that Carson Palmer is an elite qb. That its Peyton, Brady, Carson, and everyone else. That those 3 are on "another level".

But what has Carson done to merit the same acclaim as Peyton or Brady? Quite honestly, outside that one 30 TD year, he hasn't proven he deserves the same cred as those 2. He has a potent offense, and doesn't put up Peyton or Brady numbers with it. His TD/Int ratio hasn't been that great. Nor has his team been that great. Brady and Peyton win, regardless of other circumstances. Carson does not.

How about this for a stat? Carson has 12 TD and 8 Ints, and a qb rating of 88.1 this season. I know and expect him to pick it up, but I honestly don't think he's worthy of his status that he's achieved, being named with the likes of Peyton and Brady.

See: Peyton Manning circa 2001 for the effects a HORRIBLE defense (see: most points allowed, as the Bengals have now) can have on the numbers of a QB. Tom Brady doesn't have a season like that. Why? His defense has never been worse than 17th in Points Allowed.

Geo
10-19-2007, 11:18 AM
Don't forget Edge suffering his season-ending knee injury in Week 7, at Kansas City, of 2001. Undrafted free agent rookie Dominic Rhodes came in and rushed for 1,000 yards, making NFL history, but still.

Man, Edge came in and tore up the league. Imagine Adrian Peterson winning the rushing title as a rookie, because James did that with a Colts team that was 3-13 the year before.

Edgerrin James his first three years in the league
Year Team G Rush Yds Y/G Avg 100Yd TD Rec Yds Y/G Avg TD
1999 IND 16 368 1549 96.8 4.2 10 13 63 593 37.1 9.4 4
2000 IND 16 387 1709 106.8 4.4 9 13 63 594 37.1 9.4 5
2001 IND 6 151 662 110.3 4.4 5 3 24 193 32.2 8.0 0

Geo
10-19-2007, 01:51 PM
This is more an observation on my part, but I didn't realize the Colts set an NFL record in third down conversion rate (56.1 percent) last year. I was under the impression it was one of the best ever, but I didn't know it was the best the game has ever seen.

(The 2007 Colts offense is converting 55.6 percent of third downs so far this season.)

bigbluedefense
10-19-2007, 02:25 PM
Edge, Rhodes, and now Addai are all benefitting from the scheme.

Don't get me wrong, theyre good backs, but their #s are inflated because they go against nickel defenses. The scheme greatly benefits them.

The same can be said of Tiki Barber and the Giants. Why don't you think most Giants fans weren't overly concerned when Tiki left? Why is it that an UDFA like Ward can step in and produce?

Same reason. The scheme in place. When teams play against the Giants, they come out in nickel packages and try to stop Eli. The run game benefits as a result.

Thats a big reason why i said Eli's situation is far diff from Ben or Rivers. Teams try to stop the run with 8 in the box against those 2. Eli has went against nickel defenses his whole career. Totally different situations.