PDA

View Full Version : My Week 8 Thoughts


Shiver
10-30-2007, 01:26 AM
My week 8 thoughts are a little short and not as throughly checked this week. I’ve had a lot on my docket so I have to keep this short and sweet.



Top Story

New England runs up the score, again

I don’t care what anyone says about this being a professional’s game, and stuff like that. There is an unwritten rule that when the game is out of hand you start playing conservatively and even start taking your starters out. Albeit the line is admittedly vague and undetermined, but I am convinced that not only have the New England Patriots crossed that line, they’ve repeatedly done so. Throwing deep down the field with 3-4 WR sets, and going for it on 4th down when you are up by five touchdowns is just downright unnecessary. If they want to do that kind of thing then they need to recognize the risk. When a D-Lineman goes “Vince Wilfork” on Tom Brady in the 4th quarter when they are still throwing deep down the field, then the Patriots have no right to complain. Just like in Baseball when you know that retaliation is coming, it’s merely a matter of time.

Scheme Analysis

The existence of a shut-down corner

I for one do not buy that such a player exists. It’s only natural; the WR knows where he is going and is running forward, the CB is backpedaling and does not know where the play is going. I remember seeing the first game Brett Favre played as a Packer, and Sterling Sharpe beat Rod Woodson twice for touchdowns. And that was when the rules favored the corners more then they do now. People have been quick to proclaim Champ Bailey as a “shut-down” corner, but I don’t buy it. I have seen him get beat far too often for that term to apply. Tonight, for example, he was beat by James Jones because he was peeking in the backfield. Does that mean he isn’t a great corner? No it does not. What it does mean is that it doesn’t matter how good the corner is, if the offense executes then he will not win. That is why teams are moving towards 2-deep safety defensive schemes; particularly the Tampa 2.

Weekly News

The Saints triumphant return to relevance

He is back to being the guy we saw last year. He played near flawless football against the San Francisco 49ers. This leaves the Saints in an interesting situation. They should be able to give Tampa Bay and Carolina a good run. That being said I still like the Bucs in this division, but at least it is interesting now. The Saints are finally back offensively. I attribute this to three players getting their acts together: Jammal Brown, Marques Colston, and Reggie Bush. All three were underachieving and are now playing at a level that I would have expected out of them.

The Titans defense just wins games

Vince Young does not. Many will use the Titans’ 4-2 record with Vince Young as some form of evidence that he is doing his job as a QB. The fact is he has even regressed from last year, and is quite frankly playing miserable football right now. He isn’t making dynamic plays as a runner and certainly not as a passer. Some may say that he doesn’t have great receivers, and this is true to an extent, but that didn’t stop Kerry Collins last week from having a nice game. Last year he was the lowest rated passer in the NFL, and this year little has changed. The only good game he had as a passer was against the anemic Saints’ pass defense. The Titans defense, on the other hand, deserves an abundance of praise for their performance. Kyle Vanden Bosch and Albert Haynesworth have dominated O-Lineman all year, Keith Bulluck is having his best individual season, and the secondary is playing aggressive and physical football.

Maybe Jon Kitna wasn’t crazy after all

I picked the Lions to rise and contend for a play-off bid in the NFC, and they are exceeding even my expectations. They are 5-2 and in the conference they are in they have a great opportunity to be the wild-card. The NFC South is unlikely to get two teams in, with the winner looking to finish 9-7 at best. The NFC West is in even worse straits in regards to quality. What impresses me about the Lions is how opportunistic their defense has been. They have had struggles, sure, but they’ve made key plays when they have had to make them. After the bye week they have really clamped down on the defensive side of the ball. Even better is that now Kevin Jones is back they have a good rushing attack. Rod Marinelli has that team going in the right direction for the first time in a long time.

This is the best London could get?

An ugly and wet game that featured a match-up between a 0-7 Dolphins squad and a Giants team that played rather sloppily. The NFL has a chance to expand the sport, much like MLB and the NBA have done; however, in order to do that they need to give the international game their best stuff. The NFL’s supposed advantage over “futbol” is it’s high scoring, high octane play. When your game is 13-10 you aren’t showing what makes your game special. So I thought of what the NFL should have done: (hypothetically) next week the New England Patriots and the Indianapolis Colts face off in Wembley Stadium. You have two juggernaut Quarterbacks and high flying offenses to the masses. If you give London that game between the league’s two best teams on a neutral field then the odds that the game would have created a much larger buzz in the international community.

Hodgepodge

Antonio Cromartie has always had incredible physical abilities. After a bad start to the season the Chargers’ young defensive backs have stepped up. Cromartie, in particular, is making tremendous strides.

Vernon Davis has finally returned to the level of performance he was showing at the tail end of the past season. He was the lone bright spot in the 49ers’ game against the Saints.

The Cleveland Browns’ offense has been spectacular. Derek Anderson, and I will say this again, is making the trade for Brady Quinn look like a poor decision in hindsight. Kellen Winslow and Braylon Edwards are making spectacular catches. The O-Line is finally paying dividends. All they are missing is a dominant RB to take the offense into the elite category.

One of the problems with writing about something as unpredictable as the NFL is that often you will be proven wrong. Tonight I will have to apologize to Brett Favre, and more importantly his legion of rabid fans, for saying that the Redskins’ game was going to be indicative of his performance from then on. He played great on MNF and threw one of the best passes of the season on that strike to Greg Jennings.

Jay Cutler didn’t lead his team to the win, but he did lead the Broncos into position to make overtime. Who knows if the Broncos would have won the toss what would have happened, but he’s shown flashes of greatness. He still needs to refine his game and knock the kinks out.

The Jets are finally going to Kellen Clemens. Now that they are eliminated from any playoff contention they will get to see what they have for the future. I personally see very good things in Kellen Clemens and have always liked him as a prospect.

KCJ58
10-30-2007, 01:28 AM
i always enjoy reading what you think Shiver probly the best weekly post on the fourm

OzTitan
10-30-2007, 01:42 AM
VY hasn't regressed from last year, he's throwing it better as shown by a vastly better %, but the change is the play calling isn't as focused on his run threat and he is clearly not opting to scramble in place of letting passing plays develop. I think this is his first real season developing as the type of passer has to be as his style last year was never going to be sustainable for his career. It helped win games last season but he was always going to have to take on more of a passing focus and this is what we're seeing - for some reason I expected it to be smooth but now in hindsight that was clearly an unrealistic expectation because it's a significant change from what he was asked and directed to do last year.

thule
10-30-2007, 01:46 AM
As far as the Pats running up the score...I agree it is pretty bushleague. However, I think they are sending a message to other teams...saying ya we are going to beat you and beat you bad. Now while I don't agree with this type of play it might make some of those lesser teams think that have no chance...rather than saying well they only beat so and so by 10 pts...I think it is a smart idea to instill fear into your opponents...but I still think it's bush league.

jared
10-30-2007, 01:55 AM
Thanks for the good read, I enjoyed it.

d34ng3l021
10-30-2007, 02:07 AM
Sigh. I am kind of dissapointed because its shorter than usual. Good stuff though.

Caddy
10-30-2007, 03:34 AM
I always love your stuff Shiv and I too have always been high on Cromartie. I really wanted to see him as a Buccaneer but even if he made it too their pick I doubt he would have been taken anyway.

d34ng3l021
10-30-2007, 03:57 AM
Yeah. Cromartie was a man to man kind of guy, right? I really liked him coming out of college, but in the Pros he kind of dissappeared for a bit. Glad to see him making strides. He has such amazing physical talent. What did he run for his 40?

Geo
10-30-2007, 04:16 AM
Jay Cutler didnít lead his team to the win, but he did lead the Broncos into position to make overtime. Who knows if the Broncos would have won the toss what would have happened, but heís shown flashes of greatness. He still needs to refine his game and knock the kinks out.
The first sentence is right, just backwards:

Jay Cutler did lead the Broncos into position to make overtime, but he didnít lead his team to the win.

BlindSite
10-30-2007, 04:34 AM
Actually its fine the first way.

Jughead10
10-30-2007, 07:37 AM
The England game was such a mess and mostly because of the field. Not to mention that fans had whistles in the stands and were blowing them the whole game. Jason Taylor even said it messed him up on a couple of occasions. I'm just glad no one got hurt. Although on a wet field like that it might actually be harder to get hurt because you can't get caught in the field. You would just slide.

Auron
10-30-2007, 08:17 AM
Have to agree there really aren't any true "Shut Down" Corners in this league anymore that will completely take a way the whole side of the field anymore. With the contact rules prohibiting many corners from being physical outside of the 1st five yards, and also the sheer athleticism and talent at the Wide Receiver position now days every Cornerback in the league is bound to get burned at some point; it's just the nature of the position. Now there are still highly effective Cornerbacks that can severely limit what opposing teams can do in the passing game, and will consistently limit receivers to short gains and avoid giving up the big play with frequency, but even the best like Champ Bailey are bound to get burned every once in a while.

The Saints showed me that they had some character, a lot of teams would implode and turn on each other after starting 0-4 like that. I don't know whatever it was the was holding their Offense back those first four games but it looks like they got over it. Drew Brees played an All-Pro type game, Marques Colston saved up all his energy and just exploded in one game, and Reggie Bush is slowly but surely learning the nuances of being a featured workhorse Running back.

Not sure what's going on with Vince, didn't really watch the game much but the numbers look bad. I heard he had 2 crucial drops that could've been potential Touchdowns in the 4th quarter..and that will hurt. but I don't know why Chow would restrict the Offense so much by holding back Vince's best ability to scramble out of the pocket and make things happen on his own.

The Lions are impressing me, and Jon Kitna may just reach his goal. I think at the very least Detroit should be in prime position for a Wild Card in the NFC. (Green Bay will be hard to overtake in the North) The Defense is opportunistic.. yes they get beat for big plays but when turnover opportunities arise they make the most of it, and Kitna is playing at a very efficient level. Their schedule becomes a little more difficult from here on out, but this much is known: The Lions aren't pushovers anymore.

Cromartie, great physical abilities looks like he's finally starting to settle in. Derek Anderson is playing lights out; not sure if this is a flash in the pan type things or if he really developed into a Pro Bowl caliber QB, but either way I think the Browns invested too much into Quinn to trade him away. I think we'll see the Brees/Rivers, Kitna/Palmer part Deux situation play out in Cleveland. Favre still has the cannon, that was a beautiful clutch pass in OT to Jennings for the win.

Looks like your boy Penny was finally benched ;) Have to say I agree with the decision, while I can't blame all the Jets recent problems on Pennington his physical limitations were restricting what the Jets could do on Offense too much. Will Clemens fare much better? Probably not early on.. he'll go through struggles especially behind that O-line but at least he'll receive some valuable playing experience for the future.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-30-2007, 10:35 AM
Champ was inactive last week and there's a good chance he was still feeling the effects of that. Is he a Primetime type shutdown guy? No, but he is the closest thing to it in the NFL.

CannedToast
10-30-2007, 11:34 AM
Champ was inactive last week and there's a good chance he was still feeling the effects of that. Is he a Primetime type shutdown guy? No, but he is the closest thing to it in the NFL.

Bailey is getting all this flack, but he was inches from batting the ball down.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d803bc832

If that throw wasn't perfect, or Bailey wasn't coming off of an injury, Bailey makes an amazing play saving a TD, and everyone is talking about his brilliance.

I think it's funny.

Shiver
10-30-2007, 01:02 PM
Have to agree there really aren't any true "Shut Down" Corners in this league anymore that will completely take a way the whole side of the field anymore. With the contact rules prohibiting many corners from being physical outside of the 1st five yards, and also the sheer athleticism and talent at the Wide Receiver position now days every Cornerback in the league is bound to get burned at some point; it's just the nature of the position. Now there are still highly effective Cornerbacks that can severely limit what opposing teams can do in the passing game, and will consistently limit receivers to short gains and avoid giving up the big play with frequency, but even the best like Champ Bailey are bound to get burned every once in a while.

Champ Bailey can shutdown average receivers, even above average receivers. But he has been dominated by players like Chad Johnson, Terrell Owens, and even Jerry Porter.

The Saints showed me that they had some character, a lot of teams would implode and turn on each other after starting 0-4 like that. I don't know whatever it was the was holding their Offense back those first four games but it looks like they got over it. Drew Brees played an All-Pro type game, Marques Colston saved up all his energy and just exploded in one game, and Reggie Bush is slowly but surely learning the nuances of being a featured workhorse Running back.

I still don't like their defense. That said they only need to go 5-3 to put themselves in a nice position for the NFC South crown. I would not be surprised to see 8-8 win both the South and the West.

Not sure what's going on with Vince, didn't really watch the game much but the numbers look bad. I heard he had 2 crucial drops that could've been potential Touchdowns in the 4th quarter..and that will hurt. but I don't know why Chow would restrict the Offense so much by holding back Vince's best ability to scramble out of the pocket and make things happen on his own.

I saw both of those drops. It hurt his stats, but that still didn't change the fact that Vince isn't doing anything well at this point. If you are going to be a bottom of the barrel passer you need to compensate with athletic ability. Why he isn't doing that is beyond me.

The Lions are impressing me, and Jon Kitna may just reach his goal. I think at the very least Detroit should be in prime position for a Wild Card in the NFC. (Green Bay will be hard to overtake in the North) The Defense is opportunistic.. yes they get beat for big plays but when turnover opportunities arise they make the most of it, and Kitna is playing at a very efficient level. Their schedule becomes a little more difficult from here on out, but this much is known: The Lions aren't pushovers anymore.

I like that the defense is playing much more sound defensively since the bye week. It looks like they used that extra week to tweak some things and now they are playing opportunistic and sound defense. Will that hold up? I don't know.

Cromartie, great physical abilities looks like he's finally starting to settle in. Derek Anderson is playing lights out; not sure if this is a flash in the pan type things or if he really developed into a Pro Bowl caliber QB, but either way I think the Browns invested too much into Quinn to trade him away. I think we'll see the Brees/Rivers, Kitna/Palmer part Deux situation play out in Cleveland. Favre still has the cannon, that was a beautiful clutch pass in OT to Jennings for the win.

I think the Browns may just put a nice tender on Anderson and trade him ala Matt Schaub situation. If Brady Quinn isn't good then it will be a poor decision; however, they really don't have an alternative considering they put in a 2nd round and 1st round pick to get him.

Looks like your boy Penny was finally benched ;) Have to say I agree with the decision, while I can't blame all the Jets recent problems on Pennington his physical limitations were restricting what the Jets could do on Offense too much. Will Clemens fare much better? Probably not early on.. he'll go through struggles especially behind that O-line but at least he'll receive some valuable playing experience for the future.


I think it has been a few weeks too late. If they put Clemens in against soft defenses like Cincinnati and Buffalo he would have had an easier transition. Now he faces the Redskins' defense.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 01:17 PM
I think alot of CBs have regressed this year whether its injury or age. But having a CB who is capable of playing man coverage on an island with a WR is necessary to have an elite defense. Its impossible running all out zones against an elite offense all game and shut them down. Receivers are too good for that. They'll just shred through the zone and eat it for breakfast.

Having that said, Ive read Hall get alot of heat for his play on the field this year. Being called overrated. Kill him for being a classless jerk. Kill him for being a horrible teammate and lockerroom presence. But don't kill him for his play on the field.

Hall, has been playing better than almost every CB in the league this year. And considering the circumstances he's been in this season, thats pretty damn good. He's not having a year like Bailey had last year, but name me anyone who is?

Flyboy
10-30-2007, 02:07 PM
The Saints triumphant return to relevance

He is back to being the guy we saw last year. He played near flawless football against the San Francisco 49ers. This leaves the Saints in an interesting situation. They should be able to give Tampa Bay and Carolina a good run. That being said I still like the Bucs in this division, but at least it is interesting now. The Saints are finally back offensively. I attribute this to three players getting their acts together: Jammal Brown, Marques Colston, and Reggie Bush. All three were underachieving and are now playing at a level that I would have expected out of them.

Imagine that. The offensive line starts to actually block and we start scoring points on offense. Amazing, I tells ya.

remix 6
10-30-2007, 02:09 PM
please tell me where u learned the "unwritten rule" you've never played a sport at a professional level.

if there is 1..then let NFL players take it up. You..a fan..does not know any "unwritten rules" in NFL

JK17
10-30-2007, 02:18 PM
please tell me where u learned the "unwritten rule" you've never played a sport at a professional level.

if there is 1..then let NFL players take it up. You..a fan..does not know any "unwritten rules" in NFL

Why can't a fan know an unwritten rule? It's not like you get into the NFL and they give you a super-secret rulebook of things not to do...it's unwritten, meaning it should be assumed.

d34ng3l021
10-30-2007, 02:20 PM
I think alot of CBs have regressed this year whether its injury or age. But having a CB who is capable of playing man coverage on an island with a WR is necessary to have an elite defense. Its impossible running all out zones against an elite offense all game and shut them down. Receivers are too good for that. They'll just shred through the zone and eat it for breakfast.

Having that said, Ive read Hall get alot of heat for his play on the field this year. Being called overrated. Kill him for being a classless jerk. Kill him for being a horrible teammate and lockerroom presence. But don't kill him for his play on the field.

Hall, has been playing better than almost every CB in the league this year. And considering the circumstances he's been in this season, thats pretty damn good. He's not having a year like Bailey had last year, but name me anyone who is?

You are not a Falcons fan and you are defending Hall? wtf.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-30-2007, 02:21 PM
please tell me where u learned the "unwritten rule" you've never played a sport at a professional level.

if there is 1..then let NFL players take it up. You..a fan..does not know any "unwritten rules" in NFL

Sorry you don't know it but the NFL sends the unwritten rule to NFLDC mods so we are just few who know of it, but regular bystanders have no clue.

Shiver
10-30-2007, 02:34 PM
I think alot of CBs have regressed this year whether its injury or age. But having a CB who is capable of playing man coverage on an island with a WR is necessary to have an elite defense. Its impossible running all out zones against an elite offense all game and shut them down. Receivers are too good for that. They'll just shred through the zone and eat it for breakfast.

Having that said, Ive read Hall get alot of heat for his play on the field this year. Being called overrated. Kill him for being a classless jerk. Kill him for being a horrible teammate and lockerroom presence. But don't kill him for his play on the field.

Hall, has been playing better than almost every CB in the league this year. And considering the circumstances he's been in this season, thats pretty damn good. He's not having a year like Bailey had last year, but name me anyone who is?

Unfortunately it's the latter two that is going to get him traded. The most recent news is the Falcons held back half of his fine if he didn't complain to the media and he still opened his mouth to the tune of 50,000. That shows just how irreconcilable the situation is between Hall and the organization.

I will say this: while there are no "shutdown" corners, teams do target specific corners. Indianapolis, for example, does it more than any other team in the league. Considering they have two great receivers that always line up on the same side they have that luxury. While I say Champ Bailey isn't a shutdown corner, the Colts' strategy when they play the Broncos show that he is a very good corner. They throw to Harrison, but they would rather throw to Wayne more and let him go off for 150 and two touchdowns.

Shiver
10-30-2007, 02:45 PM
please tell me where u learned the "unwritten rule" you've never played a sport at a professional level.

if there is 1..then let NFL players take it up. You..a fan..does not know any "unwritten rules" in NFL

As a Falcons' fan I know all too well what happens when an opposing team feels that an unwritten rule has been violated. Because the Falcons' kept cut blocking their D-Lineman, teams repeatedly took dirty cheap shots on Michael Vick as retaliation. Antonio Pierce, Dan Morgan, leaders of their respective defenses were the ones doing the cheap hits. If the Patriots want to score at will and not stop, that's fine, but they need to recognize the consequences of doing such.

By the way it doesn't take experience in the NFL to know about unwritten rules. Why you continually stick up for the Patriots' dirty tactics is amazing to me. I guess ignorance is bliss when it comes to fandom. Whether it was "HGH really doesn't improve your performance," or "stealing signals with electronics isn't cheating," or "going for it on 4th down twice when you are up by five touchdowns in the fourth quarter isn't running up the score."

Jughead10
10-30-2007, 02:48 PM
As a Falcons' fan I know all too well what happens when an opposing team feels that an unwritten rule has been violated. Because the Falcons' kept cut blocking their D-Lineman, teams repeatedly took dirty cheap shots on Michael Vick as retaliation. Antonio Pierce, Dan Morgan, leaders of their respective defenses were the ones doing the cheap hits.

Eh, I remember Pierce's late hit, mainly because I was at that game in Atlanta and was going nuts when it happened. But I'm not sure that was retalitory. Pierce claimed if he slowed down Vick would have just cut in and broken off a huge run or Pierce would have hurt himself stopping so quickly. Plus Pierce has gotten a ton of late hits this year again. So I'm not so sure that was retalitory for cut blocking.

Shiver
10-30-2007, 03:01 PM
No, Pierce said specifically that it was retaliation for the cut blocks.

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/sportscolumns/entries/2006/10/18/falcons_should.html

Near the end of the Falcons’ come-from-ahead loss on Sunday at the Georgia Dome against the New York Giants, linebacker Antonio Pierce gleefully accepted a personal foul after his violent shove of Vick out of bounds. He attributed his anger to the Falcons’ cut blocking that is used to compensate for their lack of size.

http://betnowpicks.com/football-betting-picks/Pierce-Fined-12500-After-Hitting-Atlanta-Vick.html

The Giants and his player were all expecting a sanction. Indeed Vick clearly was out of bounds when Pierce hit him. Besides the Giants' star linebacker admitted after the game that he knock out Vick to take his revenge for the cut-blocking that he endured from Atlanta offensive linemen throughout the contest.

That's the only thing I could find, but I do remember a quote of him saying something to that effect.

yodabear
10-30-2007, 03:02 PM
Shiver who is going to get the #1 pick: the Rams or the Dolphins?

TitanHope
10-30-2007, 03:58 PM
I saw both of those drops. It hurt his stats, but that still didn't change the fact that Vince isn't doing anything well at this point. If you are going to be a bottom of the barrel passer you need to compensate with athletic ability. Why he isn't doing that is beyond me.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe the Titans are one of the leaders in Passes Dropped in the NFL. Moulds is tied for 5th in the AFC with 3, and he's the most sure handed receiver. There were 3 potential TD drops on Sunday, by Troupe, and Ganther and R. Williams in the 4th QTR. Moulds also dropped a hitch route, which was around the goal line but would have had to made a play to progress towards the goal. So 4 of his 8 incompletions were drops by the receiver. I know the "He has no weapons," argument is getting lame, but it is relevant. Vince is not a polished passer and his accuracy can be bad, but his receivers aren't giving him much help when he does put the ball on the money. Aside from the RB's and O-Line, the entire Titans offense is awful and Vince takes most the blame, which he should since he is the QB.

He's not running because he wants to prove that he can pass. He's being stubborn, and when he finally does run, he hurts himself. Go figure. But I agree, he needs to run more if not just for the sake of keeping the DEF honest.

Fisher said that Sunday's game plan was to run, partially due to Vince's injury and partly because of the Raider's Run D. He didn't play well, but no one was expecting him to. Not to mention, his receivers let him down. Both things added together equals Vince suckage.

Also, good post Shiver.

bearsfan_51
10-30-2007, 04:03 PM
Bah...Derek Anderson is an abberation. The Browns will sell high (probably a 2nd rounder) and be very happy for it.

ShutDwn
10-30-2007, 04:20 PM
I just hope they keep pushing their luck. Something will happen eventually.

As for people not knowing unwritten rules because they haven't been in the NFL, just stop talking. I was going to say any idiot knows that teams don't run up the score, but I would be wrong I guess.

Shiver
10-30-2007, 04:31 PM
Shiver who is going to get the #1 pick: the Rams or the Dolphins?


I would go with St Louis. I think they have a harder schedule. The Dolphins play the Bills twice, the Jets, the Ravens, and New England with potentially nothing to play for.

soybean
10-30-2007, 04:37 PM
I would go with St Louis. I think they have a harder schedule. The Dolphins play the Bills twice, the Jets, the Ravens, and New England with potentially nothing to play for.

you underestimate bill belichick. I'd expect the exact opposite with the score somewhere around the area of 100-0 with tom brady playing all 60 minutes.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-30-2007, 04:48 PM
you underestimate bill belichick. I'd expect the exact opposite with the score somewhere around the area of 100-0 with tom brady playing all 60 minutes.

They will get the ball back up 8 scores with 2 minutes to go, and proceed to go hurry up, burning timeouts if necessary in order to score. Some people will then pass it off as "just trying to get some practice on the 2-minute drill".

Boston
10-30-2007, 05:10 PM
And here I was looking forward to the "Favre falling back down to earth" section. I guess I'll have to wait for next weeks edition...

In all honesty though, way too much stock has been put on Favre's every move this year. Do I think he's the Favre of the mid to late 90s? Hell no. But to say he's not performing in an outstanding way is ri-diculous.

Bobo
10-30-2007, 05:11 PM
I'm just going to reiterate what other Titans fans said. No, he's not doing a very good job as a passer this year. And yes we do have one of the least talented WR core in the league. The passing problems are a summation of the two.

If you're going to use this week specifically as an example, 2 TD drops and 4 total drops changes VY's stat line completely when we only throw 14 times. From a rating of 50 to well over 100. I've been concerned with both Ben Troupe and Roydell Williams drops in the past, and things ain't getting better.

I don't think VY has regressed, don't think he's changed much at all really. He needs to change for the better, but he'll never have a great WR core to throw to, so you'll never see him have a drastic improvement like say Brady this year.

LonghornsLegend
10-30-2007, 06:58 PM
Its good to see Cromartie do some of the things everyone said he could do all along, and thats really why he was drafted for potential...he never played much at FSU but always showed flashes of athletic ability off the charts, and would of been top 10 no doubt had he stayed another year or had more game film, he still has a ways to go but considering how young he was when he came in, he's developing quite nicely...Ive always been a fan, and he looks like he can be a very good #1 corner at some point, not sure who Dallas took over him that year but I do remember wanting him badly to play next to Newman

OzTitan
10-30-2007, 07:55 PM
Last season VY was making one read and either throwing it or running it, this season he's being asked to make more reads and it has limited his scrambling. This really shouldn't be unexpected, in a way this is his first true season learning how to pass at an NFL level. I feel last season his development as a passer from a play calling POV was somewhat put aside to exploit his play making ability to help generate as many wins as possible. Now that the D has become a top 5 NFL unit, they have the luxury of getting back to working on VY's passing game while still winning games, which I don't think they could have really done last season.

That and he probably wasn't ready last season to take on what he's taking on now. Lets face it, if it wasn't for his mobility, he probably would have sat all of last season. I'm sure he got some passing lessons from his rookie year but the course hasn't really started until this year where he is being forced to do more than single reads. This is a vital step, he couldn't be treated like he was last year for the rest of his career.

His play making and mobility will start to come back when he starts to feel more comfortable in this role, because when you start to see open receivers quicker you also start to see shutdown receivers quicker. I've heard a comparison to his Sophomore season at Texas, where basically the same thing happened - expanded pass responsibilities, struggling, but then understanding and getting back to his natural game. Whether or not he can do this before the season's end in the NFL or even truly at all is the question, but he definitely hasn't regressed, he has just been given more advanced responsibilities and tasks to grasp. Guys like Cutler, Smith, Leinart etc started this process a while back because they didn't have the mobility to compensate like VY did, which is why he even played last year at all.

BlindSite
10-30-2007, 08:42 PM
I liked Cromartie a lot but I felt he was a bit like Matt Jones, had a lot of potential, but had a lot of potential to bust out. Good to see he's starting to come on.

bearsfan_51
10-30-2007, 09:03 PM
Its good to see Cromartie do some of the things everyone said he could do all along, and thats really why he was drafted for potential...he never played much at FSU but always showed flashes of athletic ability off the charts, and would of been top 10 no doubt had he stayed another year or had more game film, he still has a ways to go but considering how young he was when he came in, he's developing quite nicely...Ive always been a fan, and he looks like he can be a very good #1 corner at some point, not sure who Dallas took over him that year but I do remember wanting him badly to play next to Newman
Pretty sure that was Bobby Carpenter.

soybean
10-31-2007, 12:27 AM
Anyone find it funny and weird when pats got a false start penalty tom brady was like "YOU GOT TO BE ******* KIDDING ME!!!!"

someone447
10-31-2007, 01:38 PM
please tell me where u learned the "unwritten rule" you've never played a sport at a professional level.

if there is 1..then let NFL players take it up. You..a fan..does not know any "unwritten rules" in NFL

You're an idiot, that is an unwritten rule at all levels of the game. Hell, at all levels of ALL SPORTS!

I didn't play college football until this year, yet I knew it was unwritten rule not to run up the score.

Shiver
10-31-2007, 01:44 PM
Pretty sure that was Bobby Carpenter.

Speaking of the Cowboys' nonexistent '06 draft class...

Bobby Carpenter
Anthony Fasano
Jason Hatcher

Yikes.

LonghornsLegend
10-31-2007, 09:47 PM
Pretty sure that was Bobby Carpenter.

yea, no wonder I wanted Cromartie so bad :(




Speaking of the Cowboys' nonexistent '06 draft class...

Bobby Carpenter
Anthony Fasano
Jason Hatcher

Yikes.


nonexistant?? Hatcher has been coming on strong of lately, he gets lots of playing time, and has looked better each week...it is only his 2nd season, he looks alot better then Spears overall(take that how you will, as a compliment to him or a knock), and actually looks like he can be a quality starter...he wasnt a first rd pick or anything, but has shown great flashes...


Fasano hasnt been used as much lately, but Im almost certain he could start for half the teams in the NFL as their #1 Te right now, its only so many balls that can go around, so he may not be utilized, but he has shown he runs great routes and has excellent hands, any time the ball is thrown his way he catches it, now looking back I wouldnt love a pick so high for a guy rarely used but it was Parcells pick, and he probably would be used more if he was still here...Granted, he could start for us if Witten ever missed any time and put up nice stats


Carp of course is still up in the air, he has moved around so much, but we hear about how he has all these physical attributes but he only gets to use them on special teams...another Parcells pick, not sure if he fits the mold how Wade would like him to, but he's not a bust yet, I just hope we get to see something from him soon...


picks like Spears were alot worse, 2 of those guys contribute on our team, and the other is still waiting to get a shot, and Id need to see Carp start a few games before I judged him

GB12
10-31-2007, 10:28 PM
Speaking of the Cowboys' nonexistent '06 draft class...

Bobby Carpenter
Anthony Fasano
Jason Hatcher

Yikes.

I remember many people saying he'd be the better of the two between him and Hawk.

yodabear
11-01-2007, 01:06 AM
Now second part of my question, since u said the Rams would be #1, who do u see them picking, or do u see them wanting to trade?

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-01-2007, 09:01 AM
I wonder who has more drops, the vikes receivers or the titans receivers?

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-01-2007, 09:11 AM
I wonder who has more drops, the vikes receivers or the titans receivers?

LonghornsLegend
11-01-2007, 09:36 AM
I remember many people saying he'd be the better of the two between him and Hawk.


i dont remember hearing that, but I still think if the right team took Carp who was using him on a week 2 week basis would have a good linebacker, im just to the point where id rather start him a few weeks and see what we have or trade him for scraps...Im really not a big fan of taking a round 1 guy and playing him on special teams

Flyboy
11-01-2007, 10:57 AM
I wonder who has more drops, the vikes receivers or the titans receivers?

Devery Henderson has them all beat.

Pit Bull #53
11-01-2007, 11:34 AM
I wonder who has more drops, the vikes receivers or the titans receivers?

I don't think our receivers have a ton of drops (haven't looked it up), but it seems like the ones that they do drop are either in the endzone or with the game on the line.

Other than that, we're golden. Lol

bearsfan_51
11-01-2007, 11:37 AM
Fasano hasnt been used as much lately, but Im almost certain he could start for half the teams in the NFL as their #1 Te right now

There's really nothing to back that statement up at all.

VoteLynnSwan
11-01-2007, 12:51 PM
No particular order
1. Antonio Gates-SD
2. Tony Gonzalez-KC
3. Jason Witten-DAL
4. Dallas Clark-IND
5. Kellen Winslow-CLE
6. Jeremy Shockey-NYG
7. Heath Miller-PIT
8. Chris Cooley-WAS
9. Ben Watson-NE
10. Desmond Clark-CHI
11. Greg Olsen-CHI
12. Alge Crumpler-ATL
13. Randy McMichael-STL
14. Todd Heap-BAL
15. Vernon Davis-SF
16. Tony Scheffler-DEN
17. Owen Daniels-HOU
18. Alex Smith-TB
19. Daniel Graham-DEN
20. Leonard Pope-ARI
21. Marcedes Lewis-JAC
22. Zach Miller-OAK

those are all TEs that have either proven more, or are more talented than Anthony Fasano... i'm sure there's more but really i just got tired of listing them. Obviously though he wouldn't start on half the teams in the league.

And bf_51, i'm surprised you even bothered reading what he wrote, it's usually pretty worthless.

Shiver
11-01-2007, 02:40 PM
I remember many people saying he'd be the better of the two between him and Hawk.

I never, and I mean never, understood the love some people had for Bobby Carpenter.

Now second part of my question, since u said the Rams would be #1, who do u see them picking, or do u see them wanting to trade?

It's way too early. Right now it is hard to say since they have so much invested in Marc Bulger and Steven Jackson. As I've mused earlier I have no idea at this point. This upcoming draft has no clear cut shoe-in #1 pick.

I wonder who has more drops, the vikes receivers or the titans receivers?


Probably the Titans. They have been awful. That's why Vince Young's stubbornness and refusal to take over with his athletic ability is so baffling.

Sniper
11-01-2007, 02:43 PM
No particular order
1. Antonio Gates-SD
2. Tony Gonzalez-KC
3. Jason Witten-DAL
4. Dallas Clark-IND
5. Kellen Winslow-CLE
6. Jeremy Shockey-NYG
7. Heath Miller-PIT
8. Chris Cooley-WAS
9. Ben Watson-NE
10. Desmond Clark-CHI
11. Greg Olsen-CHI
12. Alge Crumpler-ATL
13. Randy McMichael-STL
14. Todd Heap-BAL
15. Vernon Davis-SF
16. Tony Scheffler-DEN
17. Owen Daniels-HOU
18. Alex Smith-TB
19. Daniel Graham-DEN
20. Leonard Pope-ARI
21. Marcedes Lewis-JAC
22. Zach Miller-OAK

those are all TEs that have either proven more, or are more talented than Anthony Fasano... i'm sure there's more but really i just got tired of listing them. Obviously though he wouldn't start on half the teams in the league.

And bf_51, i'm surprised you even bothered reading what he wrote, it's usually pretty worthless.

LJ Smith, while soft and overrated, has also done more than Fasano

Jughead10
11-01-2007, 02:55 PM
Probably the Titans. They have been awful. That's why Vince Young's stubbornness and refusal to take over with his athletic ability is so baffling.

He probably wants to avoid Vick comparisons.

TitanHope
11-01-2007, 03:06 PM
Currently, any comparison to Michael Vick should try to be avoided...

Shiver
11-01-2007, 03:26 PM
He probably wants to avoid Vick comparisons.

Right now Vince Young is a poor man's Michael Vick.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-01-2007, 03:48 PM
Probably the Titans. They have been awful. That's why Vince Young's stubbornness and refusal to take over with his athletic ability is so baffling.

I dunno, tj hasn't been great for the Vikings but his receivers have been even worse.

TitanHope
11-01-2007, 06:15 PM
Right now Vince Young is a poor man's Michael Vick.

Really? How so?

Shiver
11-01-2007, 06:36 PM
Really? How so?

The only thing Vince does better is he is willing to throw to his running backs in check downs; hence he has a higher completion percentage. Other than that Vick was a better and more explosive runner, had a bigger arm, and always had a + TD/INT ratio. Young has upside to be better in the long run, and certainly is a better person, but right now he hasn't done anything Vick didn't do when he was in the NFL. Vick actually had an awesome sophomore season, he actually regressed in his last couple of years in the league for whatever reason. Young, like Vick did back in '03/'04, has the tag of "winning games" in spite of unimpressive statistics. I think Vince Young has the celling of a Steve McNair, basement of being a Michael Vick. The ultimate goal is for Young to attain Randall Cunningham status.

Moses
11-01-2007, 07:04 PM
The only thing Vince does better is he is willing to throw to his running backs in check downs; hence he has a higher completion percentage. Other than that Vick was a better and more explosive runner, had a bigger arm, and always had a + TD/INT ratio. Young has upside to be better in the long run, and certainly is a better person, but right now he hasn't done anything Vick didn't do when he was in the NFL. Vick actually had an awesome sophomore season, he actually regressed in his last couple of years in the league for whatever reason. Young, like Vick did back in '03/'04, has the tag of "winning games" in spite of unimpressive statistics. I think Vince Young has the celling of a Steve McNair, basement of being a Michael Vick. The ultimate goal is for Young to attain Randall Cunningham status.

Basement of a Michael Vick? Vick was one of the better quarterbacks in the league.

BlindSite
11-01-2007, 07:31 PM
No particular order
1. Antonio Gates-SD
2. Tony Gonzalez-KC
3. Jason Witten-DAL
4. Dallas Clark-IND
5. Kellen Winslow-CLE
6. Jeremy Shockey-NYG
7. Heath Miller-PIT
8. Chris Cooley-WAS
9. Ben Watson-NE
10. Desmond Clark-CHI
11. Greg Olsen-CHI
12. Alge Crumpler-ATL
13. Randy McMichael-STL
14. Todd Heap-BAL
15. Vernon Davis-SF
16. Tony Scheffler-DEN
17. Owen Daniels-HOU
18. Alex Smith-TB
19. Daniel Graham-DEN
20. Leonard Pope-ARI
21. Marcedes Lewis-JAC
22. Zach Miller-OAK

those are all TEs that have either proven more, or are more talented than Anthony Fasano... i'm sure there's more but really i just got tired of listing them. Obviously though he wouldn't start on half the teams in the league.

And bf_51, i'm surprised you even bothered reading what he wrote, it's usually pretty worthless.

Add Jeff King to the list.

Sniper
11-01-2007, 08:01 PM
Basement of a Michael Vick? Vick was one of the better quarterbacks in the league.

Michael Vick is a terrible QB.

Moses
11-01-2007, 08:07 PM
Michael Vick is a terrible QB.

Care to explain why? All he did was win games. He was the most gameplanned for player in the NFL.

ks_perfection
11-01-2007, 09:08 PM
Great numbers is one thing, but having decent numbers without good recievrs is entirely different and should be accomplisehd by a great QB.

The thing about VY is he's regressing since his rookie year. He had much better rookie eyar than I expected, I expected him to be really bad if he played but he was just medicore-alright (if you include running). His passing numbers weren't bad for a rookie, weren't great either but for a very raw player with poor recievers it was better than I expected. This year he's regressing and his attitude isn't one of someone wanting to improve and realizing that he has a longway to go.

The teams success, him going ot be Pro Bowl, ROY and the priase from the media seems to be hurting him long-term as he thinks he's awesome and not working harder.

LonghornsLegend
11-01-2007, 09:59 PM
And bf_51, i'm surprised you even bothered reading what he wrote, it's usually pretty worthless.

whatever you say man, half the time on here most I do is offer my opinions, get insight whever I can, and post without "trolling" all over the place...im not scott wright, but take it for what its worth...

Shiver
11-01-2007, 10:16 PM
shiver, i'm shocked you have yet to comment on how similar vince's "excuses" sound to vick's, yet there aren't 4,000,000 people screaming about how bad vince is. not sure if you're holding back or not, but it's intriguing to me that suddenly, the fact that a qb's receivers suck is actually a legitimate argument as to why a qb may not have great numbers. or that his system is, currently at least, not effective for the type of player he is.

All I do know is that Vince Young is much more likable than Michael Vick ever was. Michael Vick had a stigma surrounding him that he was a thug, dumb QB when he played. Vince on the other hand, wonderlic scores aside, doesn't carry that same stigma.

The fact is the excuses and the logic behind the supporters of Young are eerily similar to things I would have said two and three years ago. Eventually it doesn't matter what system you've been in, how long you have been in the league, who you are throwing to, you have to gradually improve. Vick, contrary to what I hoped, never progressed and the Falcons were mired in mediocrity because of that. It is still to be determined if Young will improve. At least while he is learning to be a passer I would have expected him to use his legs more, but he hasn't.

Shiver
11-01-2007, 10:22 PM
Basement of a Michael Vick? Vick was one of the better quarterbacks in the league.


Vick was great one third of the time, other than that he wasn't good. That is why the Falcons were so inconsistent with him as their QB. I never knew what to expect from him on any given week.

BlindSite
11-01-2007, 10:26 PM
People were spoiled last year by his efforts imo.

They forget so quickly that a QB usually takes 3 seasons to be a competitive force and 5 years to be, if they're ever going to be, dominant.

Guys like Roethlisberger doing brilliant things his first 2-3 years is very much the exception, not the rule.

steelernation77
11-02-2007, 01:01 AM
Add Jeff King to the list.

Matt Spaeth has 3 TDs to Fasano's 0 in far fewer games.

Not that it really proves anything.

TitanHope
11-02-2007, 10:33 PM
I know Vince is slower than Vick, but this year he doesn't look as fast as he did last year. I don't know why though, but maybe it's just me.