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View Full Version : Denver Might Have the Worst DC in the League


bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 09:29 AM
I am completely dumbfounded at how dumb he is at times. Why is he running so much Cover 2 and zone when he has those 2 Man Coverage CBs on the edges? Why is he not blitzing? Didn't he look at the film from year's past? When Denver blitzes, they play good defense.

And putting situational pass rushers in fulltime on that dline is clearly not helping the run defense. Why not use them situationally?

Anyway, so far from what Ive seen, he's this year's Tim Lewis. Any other DC's this year that are doing a horrible job worthy of discussion?

Jakey
10-30-2007, 09:39 AM
Another one, even though its not the D'coordinaters fault is the Jets, they just havent got the personel to run a 3-4 yet, but week in week out they keep playing it. It takes time to convert a defence from a 4-3 to 3-4 and Mangenious has rushed it in my opinion, its like putting a square into a circle hole-it just aint gonna work. I think next year after they get a few more suitable players, they might be able to convert successfully, but this year i just cant see it happening.

Whats your thoughts on this???

Edit: On a side note, Dick Lebeau and Mike Tomlin are doing an awsome job! :D

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 09:41 AM
Another one, even though its not the D'coordinaters fault is the Jets, they just havent got the personel to run a 3-4 yet, but week in week out they keep playing it. It takes time to convert a defence from a 4-3 to 3-4 and Mangenious has rushed it in my opinion, its like putting a square into a circle hole-it just aint gonna work. I think next year after they get a few more suitable players, they might be able to convert successfully, but this year i just cant see it happening.

Whats your thoughts on this???

Ive been a strong advocate of running a 4-3 over there until they got the right personnell for the 3-4. Ive never favored the fulltime switch. He should at least run a 4-3 on running downs to stop the run. Then if he wants to use his 2 gap line on passing downs, go ahead, but this front is simply not made for a 3-4 right now.

Wyndham
10-30-2007, 09:45 AM
I'd say you're accurate on one count and way off on another. They don't blitz, which is awful because their DL stinks, but they play a ton of man coverage - certainly too much. They ask their 'best-evah' corners to cover a WR, to a man, and rely on their safeties to play in the box. As you saw yesterday (and it's been happening all season which is why they suck against the pass), they have no safety that can cover a high school WR, no pass rush and Bly/Bailey are NOT immortal or even close to it.

Overall, yes, Bates is horrible and vastly overrated.

Jakey
10-30-2007, 09:48 AM
Ive been a strong advocate of running a 4-3 over there until they got the right personnell for the 3-4. Ive never favored the fulltime switch. He should at least run a 4-3 on running downs to stop the run. Then if he wants to use his 2 gap line on passing downs, go ahead, but this front is simply not made for a 3-4 right now.

I agree with the fact they should stick with a 4-3 on occasions, but the bit about using the 4-3 on running plays doesnt really make sense...3-4 teams are just as capable at stopping the run as 4-3, if not better, see Ravens/Steelers/'Boys/Pats etc...

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 09:49 AM
I'd say you're accurate on one count and way off on another. They don't blitz, which is awful because their DL stinks, but they play a ton of man coverage - certainly too much. They ask their 'best-evah' corners to cover a WR, to a man, and rely on their safeties to play in the box. As you saw yesterday (and it's been happening all season which is why they suck against the pass), they have no safety that can cover a high school WR, no pass rush and Bly/Bailey are NOT immortal or even close to it.

Overall, yes, Bates is horrible and vastly overrated.

Ive seen in key situations that game they played alot of Cover 2. And against Pittsburgh, they were almost exclusively running Cover 2....over and over and over again. They mightve ran Cover 2 the entire game.

Against the Pack, I they went to more man coverage, but they still ran too much Cover 2 for my liking. With the strengths of that team, they should be a blitzing man coverage team first and foremost. Theyve abandoned the blitz almost entirely this year.

But then again, Ive only seen 3 games and highlights. So I might be off on my assessment.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 10:20 AM
I agree with the fact they should stick with a 4-3 on occasions, but the bit about using the 4-3 on running plays doesnt really make sense...3-4 teams are just as capable at stopping the run as 4-3, if not better, see Ravens/Steelers/'Boys/Pats etc...

Yeah, theyre just as capable when they have the personnell for it. If you don't have the personnell for a 3 man front, you can't run it. They Jets are getting killed in the run game because theyre running a front they can't run. If they switched to a 4-3 base on 1st and 2nd down, I guarantee you that the run defense would get significantly better.

TitleTown088
10-30-2007, 10:22 AM
Jim Bates was a good DC in Green Bay. However I haven't seen Denver play lately so I couldn't tell you.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-30-2007, 10:29 AM
I'd say you're accurate on one count and way off on another. They don't blitz, which is awful because their DL stinks, but they play a ton of man coverage - certainly too much. They ask their 'best-evah' corners to cover a WR, to a man, and rely on their safeties to play in the box. As you saw yesterday (and it's been happening all season which is why they suck against the pass), they have no safety that can cover a high school WR, no pass rush and Bly/Bailey are NOT immortal or even close to it.

Overall, yes, Bates is horrible and vastly overrated.

They suck against the pass? Well I guess the #1 pass D in the league does suck then. Who'd have thunk it? Bailey is still EASILY the best CB in the league, I don't give a flying **** if James Jones beat him once.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 10:30 AM
They suck against the pass? Well I guess the #1 pass D in the league does suck then. Who'd have thunk it? Bailey is still EASILY the best CB in the league, I don't give a flying **** if James Jones beat him once.

They don't suck against the pass, but thats also a misleading stat. Theyre #1 against the pass bc theyre so bad against the run.

Iamcanadian
10-30-2007, 10:32 AM
I'm glad to see that we have so many people here who can coach in the NFL. Their comments on how teams should play really rings with authority from guys who sit on a couch on game day and drink a beer.
Denver gave up 13 points in regulation time, that should be enough to win most games yet you criticize the DC. Duh.

Jakey
10-30-2007, 10:34 AM
Yeah, theyre just as capable when they have the personnell for it. If you don't have the personnell for a 3 man front, you can't run it. They Jets are getting killed in the run game because theyre running a front they can't run. If they switched to a 4-3 base on 1st and 2nd down, I guarantee you that the run defense would get significantly better.

Ye man i see where youre coming from now, i agree with you from that standpoint.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-30-2007, 10:36 AM
They don't suck against the pass, but thats also a misleading stat. Theyre #1 against the pass bc theyre so bad against the run.

That is true. If their run D was solid, they would probably be average. But average is not "Terrible against the pass" or whatever he said.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 10:37 AM
I'm glad to see that we have so many people here who can coach in the NFL. Their comments on how teams should play really rings with authority from guys who sit on a couch on game day and drink a beer.
Denver gave up 13 points in regulation time, that should be enough to win most games yet you criticize the DC. Duh.

im not basing my evaluation of his playcalling based on one game. he's been doing a poor job all season. :rolleyes:

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 10:38 AM
That is true. If their run D was solid, they would probably be average. But average is not "Terrible against the pass" or whatever he said.

I think they should be even better against the pass. They bolstered their front 4 from a pass rushing standpoint, and they got Dre Bly. I just don't get why your team stopped blitzing when it clearly was a great unit under a blitz heavy scheme.

Geo
10-30-2007, 10:39 AM
I too have been wondering why the Broncos aren't exclusively playing more man coverage, isn't that why they brought Bly in? Like the team opposite them, the Packers with Al Harris and Charles Woodson.

Then again, it looks like the defense might have been simplified a bit, so that the players can think less and play better. And let's not forget, the defense did hold the Packers offense to 13 points in regulation. They did their job, the defense did its job by putting the team in superb position to win this game on more than one occassion, it was undoubtedly the offense that lost this game for the Broncos.

I didn't fully understand playing Simeon Rice full-time either, maybe the Broncos were more concerned about the Packers' passing game than the running game to the point of making that decision. See above, anyways.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-30-2007, 10:40 AM
I think they should be even better against the pass. They bolstered their front 4 from a pass rushing standpoint, and they got Dre Bly. I just don't get why your team stopped blitzing when it clearly was a great unit under a blitz heavy scheme.

Yeah, I agree. I think last year, the only thing that REALLY went wrong was when we had a lead, even 3 points, with 2 minutes to go, we'd immediately drop 7-8 guys waaaay back, trying to prevent the big play. Unfortunately teams would just pick up chunks down the field and score eventually.

derza222
10-30-2007, 10:42 AM
Yeah, theyre just as capable when they have the personnell for it. If you don't have the personnell for a 3 man front, you can't run it. They Jets are getting killed in the run game because theyre running a front they can't run. If they switched to a 4-3 base on 1st and 2nd down, I guarantee you that the run defense would get significantly better.

The Jets run D last week, albeit against the Bills who we had a good game against early in the season (gave up 3.1 ypc, 3.8 to Lynch, we also wore down late in the game because the offense couldn't stay on the field) was probably the best we've had all year. Now that was David Harris' first start in place of Vilma, and he had 10 solo tackles and assisted on 7 others (also had a sack). You can draw whatever conclusions you like, but this was our best game against the run all season, especially early on before we wore down.

That said, we do need to be in a 4-3 in running situations right now. Harris helps, but only so much. But early in the season, playcalling was horrible and Mangini has taken over. So our DC does deserve to be up there on that list. Last week was probably our best defensive game of the season (we were probably only Abram Elam hitting the right guy (Lee Evans) as opposed to the wrong guy (Revis) away from giving up 6 points total that game. It looked like Revis could have picked it if he hadn't gotten hit, definitely had his hands on the ball.) Anyways, point is the defense has improved with Mangini calling plays and even though it's not the DC's fault that we're running the wrong scheme, which is on Mangini, he was not very good early on in the season.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 10:43 AM
I too have been wondering why the Broncos aren't exclusively playing more man coverage, isn't that why they brought Bly in? Like the team opposite them, the Packers with Al Harris and Charles Woodson.

Then again, it looks like the defense might have been simplified a bit, so that the players can think less and play better. And let's not forget, the defense did hold the Packers offense to 13 points in regulation. They did their job, the defense did its job by putting the team in superb position to win this game on more than one occassion, it was undoubtedly the offense that lost this game for the Broncos.

I didn't fully understand playing Simeon Rice full-time either, maybe the Broncos were more concerned about the Packers' passing game than the running game to the point of making that decision. See above, anyways.

i understand that, but my beef is moreso based on what ive seen all season opposed to just one game. GB couldve and shouldve scored more points as well. Favre threw all over the place. They just hit snags in the redzone because they can't run the ball. And stupid penalties.

Geo
10-30-2007, 10:44 AM
And because Favre missed a open Donald Driver in the endzone on 3rd down. Also, Favre fumbled the ball on a 3rd down late in the game.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 10:44 AM
Yeah, I agree. I think last year, the only thing that REALLY went wrong was when we had a lead, even 3 points, with 2 minutes to go, we'd immediately drop 7-8 guys waaaay back, trying to prevent the big play. Unfortunately teams would just pick up chunks down the field and score eventually.

*has flashbacks of Tim Lewis*

*shudders*


only difference is Tim Lewis did that all game. Its like we were in Prevent in the 1st quarter :(

Iamcanadian
10-30-2007, 10:53 AM
im not basing my evaluation of his playcalling based on one game. he's been doing a poor job all season. :rolleyes:

Let's see, I can accept Shanahan's evaluation on his DC or yours, I wonder who I'll believe.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 10:59 AM
Let's see, I can accept Shanahan's evaluation on his DC or yours, I wonder who I'll believe.

yeah because you know, its common practice for coaches to chew out their own DC during the season. happens all the time. shannahan fired his DC last year for this very reason, not blitzing enough. now his new DC is doing the same thing, how do you think Shanny really feels about him behind closed doors right now?

look, i know i don't have access to the same film that they have, but at the end of the day, common sense prevails.

if coaches were always right and always knew what they were doing, then no one would get fired. we'd just see player turnover every season. yet the amount of coaches that get fired on a yearly basis is on average 3 to 4, and thats only including head coaches.

benchod
10-30-2007, 11:03 AM
I'm glad to see that we have so many people here who can coach in the NFL. Their comments on how teams should play really rings with authority from guys who sit on a couch on game day and drink a beer.
Denver gave up 13 points in regulation time, that should be enough to win most games yet you criticize the DC. Duh.

Anyone who saw that game should know that neither team was necessarily 'held down.' Turnovers and sloppy play in the redzone kept that score artificially low.

And its justified to question Denver's play on defense, this is a team considered to be on the rise and theres no justification for such horrible play. Coaches have to put their personnel in the best position to win, and Bates simply isn't doing that.

Wyndham
10-30-2007, 11:55 AM
They suck against the pass? Well I guess the #1 pass D in the league does suck then.

#1 in... what category is that exactly?

The Broncos are awful against the pass. Before this game, Football Outsiders ranked them 24th. Their completion %, YPA, TD:INT ratio and opposing QB rating was awful.

The ONLY statistic they ranked highly in was yards allowed. Why? Because they've faced some terrible QBs and because they get ran over like a $2 crack ***** after 15 shots of JD and acid.

The "low yardage allowed" statistic, in Denver's case, is one of those mirages that often happen in the NFL for various reasons. No one passes on Denver much, but when they do, they do so with ease and have great success.

Bailey is still EASILY the best CB in the league

True.

But pass defense isn't about how good or bad your No. 1 cornerback is. Pass defense is first, and foremost, about how much you get after the quarterback. It's also about your scheme, your safeties' ability to cover the deep ball, your linebackers in zone coverage and your MLB in 2-deep zone coverage, your #2 cornerback and your nickel and dimebacks.

Denver has a top corner in Bailey. They also have a good, albeit overrated, corner in Bly. Then, they suck. They have no pass rush, no safety who can cover for sh*t, they have no depth at cornerback, their MLB is absolutely awful in coverage and their other two are average at their absolute peak.

Vikes99ej
10-30-2007, 11:57 AM
Leslie Frazier. Our lack of a pass defense ends up putting us in a hole. Just like last year.

Moses
10-30-2007, 12:05 PM
Cover 2 has worked very well against the Packers this season. If I was Denver, I would have tried to run it until the Packers proved they can run the football.

Wyndham
10-30-2007, 12:24 PM
Cover 2 has worked very well against the Packers this season.

I haven't heard this yet, nor have I watched the Packers quite enough to notice.

Interesting, because the Chiefs are running a pretty effective cover-two system. Will Brett Favre ever beat the Chiefs? Hmm.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 12:43 PM
Cover 2 has worked very well against the Packers this season. If I was Denver, I would have tried to run it until the Packers proved they can run the football.

To a certain extent this holds true. But if you are a team that does not have the pieces to run Cover 2, then don't run it. The Giants tried running pseudo Cover 2 techniques last year and had no business doing it, and we got shredded by teams in the air.

Denver does not have the safeties, or the MIKE to pull off Cover 2 effectively. So from a personnell standpoint, it would make more sense to try to stop them another way. Preferably in a way that maximizes their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.

You can't fit square pegs in round holes. Theres a fine line between effective strategy and common sense. I think sometimes coaches try to get too cute and outgameplan the opponent instead of just doing what they do best and make the opposition adjust to you.

Average OT LB
10-30-2007, 12:58 PM
you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about (yet again) and i fail to see why you bothered posting in this thread. i highly doubt you've seen more than a single broncos game, and your BS "well the coach is always the smartest man on earth" crap is getting old, given that, several times a season, it's demonstratably not true. i'm curious if you can point me to a single post you've ever made that was insightful or relevant.




BBD - between shanahan and bates, our defense will never get better. they refuse to blitz because shanny doesn't want to. they refuse to play our guys in the right spots. lynch should NEVER have been our FS, period. he's not fast enough to do anything but be a 4th linebacker. ferguson is the worst starting safety in the league, bar none. ian gold is the worst starting defensive player. there is NO reason for us to continue to play DJ at MLB (a position he's terrible at) so that we can keep gold at WLB (a position gold is awful at, but that DJ was fantastic at). unfortunately, in terms of playing more man (and not that i like a cover 2 with two safeties who are simply not capable of covering a deep half), we don't have a capable #3 CB. foxworth routinely (and heck, i'll give him that it could be scheme) gets beat for short to intermediate passes by receivers he shouldn't have a problem with. no one on our team (with DJ at mlb) can cover a TE or RB out of the backfield. basically, we have a scheme that, with several personnel changes should be ok, that is completely lacking skill players at the positions it most needs them at.

In last nights game the broncos played alot of one safety defense, i would speculate to try to help stop the run. I thikn thats smart cause they got 2 great cover corners, but i guess the downfall is what brett favre did 2 time so i guess the question is, can the players who are playing stop the run? i like dumerville i like the story an i see hes a great pass rusher, but couldnt he be seen as a liability on the defense in terms of rush defense?

Shiver
10-30-2007, 01:03 PM
Ironically the Broncos were playing single safety on the last play of the game when Jennings torched Bly.

bigbluedefense
10-30-2007, 01:08 PM
I just see a bad use of players. Mixing and matching, moving LBs out of position, putting situational pass rushers in full time, starting a SS at FS, not blitzing out of single high Safety sets, its just bad coaching in my opinion.

Moving around LBs now makes one weakness in a LB core become 2 weaknesses.

And running Cover 2 the entire game against Ben? It took Ben 2 quarters to finally realize that they were running cover 2 all the time, so after that it was money in the bank for him. He just hit his hot route and put up 28 points after starting out very slow.

Why not get out of that shell after you see Ben lighting you up? Its just dumb.

CC.SD
10-30-2007, 01:37 PM
Well, Ted Cottrell decided he didn't need to blitz Shaun Phillips and Shawne Merriman the first five or so games of the year. I don't know if that makes him worse than Bates, but it takes a special kind of person to take the league's #1 pair of sack artists and decide to call off the dogs, and then expect success.

Namy
10-30-2007, 01:38 PM
BBD, your analysis is pretty much spot on...

Bates has done a horrific job. The Broncos do not have the likes of a Jason Taylor or a MLB like Zach Thomas (I strongly believe Al Wilson would have flourished under Bates), however, Bates insists on doing it his way although our team does not have the necessary players that fit his defensive style.

Your analysis on our safeties is a well known fact among all [knowledgeable] Broncos fans. Lynch is a great tackler but is a horrible FS and horrible against the pass... the reason why he's there? Lynch may still be a good SS, but why is he a FS? Because our organization seems to have an inexplicable man crush on Nick Ferguson. It's been frustrating... I've wanted Michael Huff, Laron Landry, and other premier safeties that have come out in recent drafts.

Also, about the blitzing... the thing is, if you live by the blitz, you die by the blitz. And with the amount of blitzing we did years ago, any good team could easily pick our defense apart through screens or with their TEs, etc. I think after the AFCC game against the Steelers, Shannahan decided that blitzing in Denver was over.

Also, about Bly and Baily getting "torched". A bad run defense WILL inevitably lead to a bad pass defense. With our run defense as bad as it is, the play action probably works against us to a copious extent... not to mention that we have bad safety help and a still pathetic (tho slowly growing) pass rush.

I hope this cleared up some things.

McBain
10-30-2007, 01:45 PM
Washington's D has been good despite gregg williams, not because of him. He's completly lost the balls to blitz and we don't have the D-line to sit in cover 2 all game. It's embarrassing, really.

PACKmanN
10-30-2007, 02:02 PM
I am completely dumbfounded at how dumb he is at times. Why is he running so much Cover 2 and zone when he has those 2 Man Coverage CBs on the edges? Why is he not blitzing? Didn't he look at the film from year's past? When Denver blitzes, they play good defense.

And putting situational pass rushers in fulltime on that dline is clearly not helping the run defense. Why not use them situationally?

Anyway, so far from what Ive seen, he's this year's Tim Lewis. Any other DC's this year that are doing a horrible job worthy of discussion?

Do they really have any non pass rushing ends? Moss, Rice, Dumervil, and Engelberger.

And are u calling Jim Bates a bad DC?

no love
10-30-2007, 03:40 PM
Ive seen in key situations that game they played alot of Cover 2. And against Pittsburgh, they were almost exclusively running Cover 2....over and over and over again. They mightve ran Cover 2 the entire game.

Against the Pack, I they went to more man coverage, but they still ran too much Cover 2 for my liking. With the strengths of that team, they should be a blitzing man coverage team first and foremost. Theyve abandoned the blitz almost entirely this year.

But then again, Ive only seen 3 games and highlights. So I might be off on my assessment.

Pittsburgh was probably a situation where you say to yourself, "I am not going to let Willie Parker beat me. So I am going to have my corners in zone so that they will defend the edge in run-support" Additionally, with a team like Pitt you want to minimize the big play because thats how they really kill you, they make you bleed with the run game, but it's the explosive plays that really hurt. It's kinda of counter-intuitive because normally you think of Pitt as a power running team, but their big play ability is what really makes them dangerous. I am not afraid of Big Ben to really carve up my defense little by little with slants, but I am afraid of his deep ball because he has one of the best deep balls in the business.

Quick strikes are a double whammy against Pitt bc then you get into a situation where you start to play from behind and the defense can pin their ears back and just create chaos.

So I think the game plan was a fine game plan. Problem is he doesn't have the type of defense that is going to be really effective in a cover two scheme. The broncos best defenders are good "downhill" players, taking DJ Williams and dropping him in coverage and taking John Lynch and taking him away from the line really are moving away from the strengths. This is generally the sign of a bad d-coordinator, someone who schemes poorly for his personnel.

JCutlery
10-30-2007, 05:38 PM
he's been doing a poor job all season. :rolleyes:

Amen to that. Bates joins Henry and Graham on the list of 07 busts.

Xenos
10-30-2007, 06:29 PM
Well, Ted Cottrell decided he didn't need to blitz Shaun Phillips and Shawne Merriman the first five or so games of the year. I don't know if that makes him worse than Bates, but it takes a special kind of person to take the league's #1 pair of sack artists and decide to call off the dogs, and then expect success.
Oh he has blitz them, just not at the same time. I believe the only time he has done that was in the Raiders game. I could be wrong though.
I'm trying to decide if this will help us in the long run or not. I can see why Cottrell wanted to use Merriman and Phillips more in coverage, because you risk being too predictable with them always being the blitzers. The blitz is particularly dangerous against someone like Manning. I'm just trying to figure out what Ted is doing.

Mr. Stiller
10-30-2007, 09:42 PM
Ive seen in key situations that game they played alot of Cover 2. And against Pittsburgh, they were almost exclusively running Cover 2....over and over and over again. They mightve ran Cover 2 the entire game.

Against the Pack, I they went to more man coverage, but they still ran too much Cover 2 for my liking. With the strengths of that team, they should be a blitzing man coverage team first and foremost. Theyve abandoned the blitz almost entirely this year.

But then again, Ive only seen 3 games and highlights. So I might be off on my assessment.


Aren't a lot of their DL Injured? I mean, I'm pretty sure against us Rice and Bailey were out.. not to mention Moss, Crowder, Engleburger and Dumerville are all the DE's they have left...

It's not like they have a complete DE left up there.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-30-2007, 09:45 PM
Dumervil and Rice are our two best DEs, period. Neither is good against the run, but the rest of our DEs suck so much at this point you almost have to put him in. Crowder should be that guy, the complete base end that we need on the other side, and Moss and Elvis can rotate at the RE spot.

CC.SD
10-31-2007, 12:16 AM
Oh he has blitz them, just not at the same time. I believe the only time he has done that was in the Raiders game. I could be wrong though.
I'm trying to decide if this will help us in the long run or not. I can see why Cottrell wanted to use Merriman and Phillips more in coverage, because you risk being too predictable with them always being the blitzers. The blitz is particularly dangerous against someone like Manning. I'm just trying to figure out what Ted is doing.

Yah I know I was just simplifying. I think the new passive scheme is going to bite us in the ass against the big boys, though obviously it is working fine against teams like the Texans and Broncos.

A Perfect Score
10-31-2007, 12:41 AM
you think wathcing denvers run defense is sad...try being a ravens fan. Our offense is absolutely terrible. Jim Bates's futility on offense can only be matched by Rick Neuheisel's total inability to do anyhting good at all. Its almost sad to watch...2nd and 1 and we throw the ball twice to turn it over on downs. yes its that bad.

Xenos
10-31-2007, 12:50 AM
Yah I know I was just simplifying. I think the new passive scheme is going to bite us in the ass against the big boys, though obviously it is working fine against teams like the Texans and Broncos.

Against the Texans, we blitz our DBs more, in particular Weddle. I would like more stunts up the middle. And let's see Merriman move around more to cause more havoc that way. He doesn't always have to rush from the outside.

Iamcanadian
10-31-2007, 07:09 AM
you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about (yet again) and i fail to see why you bothered posting in this thread. i highly doubt you've seen more than a single broncos game, and your BS "well the coach is always the smartest man on earth" crap is getting old, given that, several times a season, it's demonstratably not true. i'm curious if you can point me to a single post you've ever made that was insightful or relevant.




BBD - between shanahan and bates, our defense will never get better. they refuse to blitz because shanny doesn't want to. they refuse to play our guys in the right spots. lynch should NEVER have been our FS, period. he's not fast enough to do anything but be a 4th linebacker. ferguson is the worst starting safety in the league, bar none. ian gold is the worst starting defensive player. there is NO reason for us to continue to play DJ at MLB (a position he's terrible at) so that we can keep gold at WLB (a position gold is awful at, but that DJ was fantastic at). unfortunately, in terms of playing more man (and not that i like a cover 2 with two safeties who are simply not capable of covering a deep half), we don't have a capable #3 CB. foxworth routinely (and heck, i'll give him that it could be scheme) gets beat for short to intermediate passes by receivers he shouldn't have a problem with. no one on our team (with DJ at mlb) can cover a TE or RB out of the backfield. basically, we have a scheme that, with several personnel changes should be ok, that is completely lacking skill players at the positions it most needs them at.

Another idiot who thinks he is a coaching genius sitting on his couch at home drinking a beer while watching the game. Yeah, I'm sure the NFL is lining up to sign you to coach a team with your great insite. Yeah, Shanahan and Bates don't have a clue how to coach defense, your definitely the genius(in your own mind) who can teach them. Duh.

bigbluedefense
10-31-2007, 09:32 AM
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nothing softens fabrics quite like Downy. Downy, the fabric softener.

bigbluedefense
10-31-2007, 09:37 AM
Pittsburgh was probably a situation where you say to yourself, "I am not going to let Willie Parker beat me. So I am going to have my corners in zone so that they will defend the edge in run-support" Additionally, with a team like Pitt you want to minimize the big play because thats how they really kill you, they make you bleed with the run game, but it's the explosive plays that really hurt. It's kinda of counter-intuitive because normally you think of Pitt as a power running team, but their big play ability is what really makes them dangerous. I am not afraid of Big Ben to really carve up my defense little by little with slants, but I am afraid of his deep ball because he has one of the best deep balls in the business.

Quick strikes are a double whammy against Pitt bc then you get into a situation where you start to play from behind and the defense can pin their ears back and just create chaos.

So I think the game plan was a fine game plan. Problem is he doesn't have the type of defense that is going to be really effective in a cover two scheme. The broncos best defenders are good "downhill" players, taking DJ Williams and dropping him in coverage and taking John Lynch and taking him away from the line really are moving away from the strengths. This is generally the sign of a bad d-coordinator, someone who schemes poorly for his personnel.

nooo. When you come out in 2 deep safety, youre vulnerable against the run bc you have 7 in the box.

anyway, what i said was wrong. THey stuffed the box on 1st and 2nd down. What they did was run Cover 2 on every 3rd and long. And it worked great at first. But after doing it EVERY single 3rd down, Ben picked it up and picked it apart.

My problem wasn't with running it, but why run it even after it was clear that Ben figured it out? Why KEEP running it? That was my issue.

bigbluedefense
10-31-2007, 09:39 AM
BBD, your analysis is pretty much spot on...

Bates has done a horrific job. The Broncos do not have the likes of a Jason Taylor or a MLB like Zach Thomas (I strongly believe Al Wilson would have flourished under Bates), however, Bates insists on doing it his way although our team does not have the necessary players that fit his defensive style.

Your analysis on our safeties is a well known fact among all [knowledgeable] Broncos fans. Lynch is a great tackler but is a horrible FS and horrible against the pass... the reason why he's there? Lynch may still be a good SS, but why is he a FS? Because our organization seems to have an inexplicable man crush on Nick Ferguson. It's been frustrating... I've wanted Michael Huff, Laron Landry, and other premier safeties that have come out in recent drafts.

Also, about the blitzing... the thing is, if you live by the blitz, you die by the blitz. And with the amount of blitzing we did years ago, any good team could easily pick our defense apart through screens or with their TEs, etc. I think after the AFCC game against the Steelers, Shannahan decided that blitzing in Denver was over.

Also, about Bly and Baily getting "torched". A bad run defense WILL inevitably lead to a bad pass defense. With our run defense as bad as it is, the play action probably works against us to a copious extent... not to mention that we have bad safety help and a still pathetic (tho slowly growing) pass rush.

I hope this cleared up some things.


Yeah that did clear some things up. And I agree, live with the blitz, die with the blitz. But they should at least incorporate it back into the gameplan a little more. Theyre at their best that way. *shrug*

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-31-2007, 10:25 AM
I'd rather ride the blitz to an AFC Championship loss than ride our horrible 4 man rush to another January without Broncos football.

bigbluedefense
10-31-2007, 10:33 AM
I'd rather ride the blitz to an AFC Championship loss than ride our horrible 4 man rush to another January without Broncos football.

I feel the same way. I overexaggerated, he's not on Tim Lewis's level (nobody is) and not the worst in the business, but he's not doing a good job either.

Xenos
10-31-2007, 12:36 PM
I feel the same way. I overexaggerated, he's not on Tim Lewis's level (nobody is) and not the worst in the business, but he's not doing a good job either.

What's your opinion on Ted Cottrell BBD?

bigbluedefense
10-31-2007, 07:15 PM
What's your opinion on Ted Cottrell BBD?

Don't like how he's dropping Merriman and Phillips back so much. Also he's not doing enough stunts and shades to get in the backfield.

However, for the longterm development of Phillips and Merriman its a good thing. Because if they can learn how to drop back the way Ware did, that defense will be so unpredictable and difficult to block, it will be scary.

For the immediate future, he can do a better job applying pressure and being more creative with his blitzes.

Denver Bronco99
10-31-2007, 11:15 PM
For me watching the games...we have talent, but the coaches are not using a scheme to best suit it


DJ has great tools to be a good MLB....but the way bates like his D is not suited for a MLB like williams

Champ and Bly would have been amazing with the way coyer played his CBs...the last 2 years bailey has 8 and 10 ints....but they change it????



I just think its terrible schemeing

Denver Bronco99
11-01-2007, 08:54 PM
based on your comments, you haven't actually watched a single broncos game this season. i'm curious what scheme change, exactly, would allow bailey and bly to have had more ints? is there one that would've hidden bly's tendency to bite and then get burned? is there one that would replace our linebackers and safeties with people who can tackle? seems unlikely. your further assertion that DJ can play MLB is demonstratably wrong. he can't and it's not the scheme. i don't care that you think he's good in madden, or whatever weak rationale led you to believe that, but it's simply not true.

not to excuse the coaching, which has been abysmal, but we lack talent at key positions.

I was referring to the scheme Coyer ran last year where the corners played off, in that scheme bailey was picking off pass left and right

Moses
11-01-2007, 08:57 PM
I was referring to the scheme Coyer ran last year where the corners played off, in that scheme bailey was picking off pass left and right

I noticed in the Packers game they were playing off a lot of the time, at least anytime I looked over. They were facing directly inwards, looking at each other instead of the receivers. Weird stance to say the least.

Iamcanadian
11-01-2007, 09:14 PM
[QUOTE=njx9;701168]your insight amazes me. should i suggest that you're yet another idiot who thinks he can capably figure out who i am and what i'm not, or shall i suggest that you leave the amateur psychology to, you know, people who actually do it for a living?

Talk about an ameteur making an asinine statement " I suggest you leave the ameteur pyschology to, you know, the people who actually do it for a living'. I strongly suggest you leave the ameteur coaching to, may I repeat your own words. "PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY DO IT FOR A LIVING"
Talk about putting your foot right down your own throat, you really take the cake and I suggest you follow your own advice because you obviously don't have a clue about what you are talking about. I suggest your the idiot who thinks "he can capably figure out what a coach is and what he isn't" FOOL!
Talk about being owned by your own words, YOUR OWNED FOR LIFE!!!

bigbluedefense
11-02-2007, 09:19 AM
I noticed in the Packers game they were playing off a lot of the time, at least anytime I looked over. They were facing directly inwards, looking at each other instead of the receivers. Weird stance to say the least.

Ive used that stance before. Its actually pretty good if youre defending the sidelines. Because it allows you to anticipate the inside cut better, and if he runs a go route, you just go with him.

Youre susceptible to double moves, but if you have good body balance that shouldn't be an issue.

Moses
11-02-2007, 01:16 PM
Ive used that stance before. Its actually pretty good if youre defending the sidelines. Because it allows you to anticipate the inside cut better, and if he runs a go route, you just go with him.

Youre susceptible to double moves, but if you have good body balance that shouldn't be an issue.

I think they were mainly doing it to stop slants, but I'm not 100% sure. It obviously didn't work.