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osi+ap=allshallperish
11-01-2007, 04:02 PM
2:33 on the clock, Indy has the ball on their own 37 after Freeney forced a Tom Brady Fumble. Peyton leads the Colts back onto the field, a Joseph Addai draw gets the Colts a first down but takes the clock down to the 2 minute warning, the Colts are out of timeouts. Peyton lines up under center now at his own 49 and sees the Patriots overloading his left with Rodney Harrison creeping up to the line on the right, Peyton slides his protection to the left and calls to Clark to stay in and block Harrison if he blitzes. As Peyton gets ready to receive the snap your phone rings, it’s you’re girlfriend, you’re supposed to go out in a little bit and she’s calling to see if you want to stop by and hang out a little bit before your movie. You ignore the phone, you’ll call her back in a few minutes, this game is too important, you’ve got 15 bucks and your ego on the outcome. Peyton receives the snap, his line slides to handle the overload on the left and Clark stops Harrison in his tracks, Peyton scans the field and hits Reggie Wayne for 35-yard gain. Colts ball on the New England 16. Three plays later the colts are in the end zone, you’re ready to do back flips, but you know that New England still has a chance to get in field goal range. So you’re back on earth, calm and collected, ready to explode with tension. The kickoff travels a long time in the air letting the Colts’ coverage team make good progress before it’s even caught. One missed tackle, two missed tackles and day light, you’re ready to flip out, but then all is saved, the Colts not only save the touchdown but also strip the ball and recover it. 3 kneel downs later the game is over, you’ve won 15 bucks and are still undefeated on your floors “Madden Challenge”.

Many of us love Madden, many others love Madden more than the NFL, in the end both are based on competition between two teams of eleven “players” each. Madden is a Football video game where a teams success is determined by individual players making big plays, the NFL though is a different game, it’s truly defined by the eleven men on the field, and not by one or two of them. NFL teams have a certain set of things that they need to accomplish to be successful, on Offense that includes: limiting turnovers, running the ball when they have to, making plays in the passing game when called upon and in general being able to move the ball and score points, on defense you need to be able to stop the other team from running the ball or successfully throwing the ball. Turnovers greatly help this cause and can bail defenses out of earlier mistakes, but “big plays” are not the only part of the game, most NFL snaps are not “big plays” so on most downs what matters most is can the eleven guys on defense on the field on any given down do it’s job.

To succeed in today’s NFL defenses need to stop the run to the inside, contain the run to the outside, get pressure, cover the middle, cover deep, cover the wide receivers on the outside and watch for screens, no one player can do it all on every single play, although Champ Bailey does try. That is why NFL defenses have so many different players playing the same position in so many different ways. Unfortunately this doesn’t sit well with the Madden generation, who want to watch Defensive Ends’s get sacks, Linebackers make tackles and Defensive Backs grab interceptions, there's no versatility in Madden, it doesn’t work and is superfluous. So most fans look at a player, look at his position and look if he’s doing what madden says good players at that position do.

Many times more educated football fans also fall for this trap, pigeon-holing players by the position they play, using that as an indicator of how they should play the game. This wouldn’t be a problem if, as NFL fans, competition wasn’t the sole reason we watch the game, unfortunately, as members of the Madden generation, we are beaten to death with competition at all levels of the sport, between organizations, between teams, between coaches and between players. It is this need to compare players and discover who is “best” that makes the pigeon holing of players so destructive, we compare players against others at their position instead of comparing them to others who have a similar impact.

One of the leagues most popular “positional” debates is between 3-4 outside Linebackers Shawne Merriman of the San Diego Chargers and DeMarcus Ware of the Dallas Cowboys. While the two lineup in a comparable position, which is why they are both referred to as outside linebackers, their impact on the game and playing style are as about as different as you can find in the NFL. Merriman is an elite pass rusher who is absolutely monstrous when pursuing the quarterback, he’s also been effective stopping teams from running the ball and this season actually been used to cover pass catchers, Ware meanwhile is also a talented pass rusher but is more importantly on of the league’s top 3-4 outside linebackers at covering pass catchers, both in man and in zone coverage, additionally he is exceptional at holding his lane against the run and slipping blockers to make tackles when runners do attack his gap.

Now does it really make sense to compare these two players who are so incredibly different, merely because of the position they lineup at instead of the impact they have? Football is a game about eleven on eleven, the defensive eleven have to accomplish certain things and a players position isn’t the deciding factor when determining what he is able to give the defense. If a player was a defensive end but was dominant in deep zone coverage would that make him a poor defensive player? It’s clear that he would be an exceptional deep cover man and if that meant that he was less effective rushing the passer or stopping the run teams would need to adjust, either finding an linebacker or safety that would excel at rushing the passer to let the defensive end drop into coverage, and might be more effective.

It’s important for us, as fans, not to forget that the NFL is a team sport and that players do things on the field to help the team win, so what they accomplish isn’t about doing what a Linebacker is supposed to do, but rather what can that player do to help his team succeed.

Moses
11-01-2007, 04:07 PM
You actually expect somebody to read that?

terribletowel39
11-01-2007, 04:11 PM
i agree, break it up man, its too much of an eye f**k to read that. no paragraph breaks and what not.

Bills2083
11-01-2007, 04:18 PM
^yeah that.

neko4
11-01-2007, 04:50 PM
yes it is.
Just because they have different styles doesnt mean we cant compare them. yes they are different because they have a different amount of talent. WHich can be hard to measure

UKfan
11-01-2007, 05:16 PM
It's not a bad read actually, but yeah paragraphs would really help out your writing, nice content though.

Ewing
11-01-2007, 05:19 PM
2:33 on the clock, Indy has the ball on their own 37 after Freeney forced a Tom Brady Fumble. Peyton leads the Colts back onto the field, a Joseph Addai draw gets the Colts a first down but takes the clock down to the 2 minute warning, the Colts are out of timeouts. Peyton lines up under center now at his own 49 and sees the Patriots overloading his left with Rodney Harrison creeping up to the line on the right, Peyton slides his protection to the left and calls to Clark to stay in and block Harrison if he blitzes. As Peyton gets ready to receive the snap your phone rings, it’s you’re girlfriend, you’re supposed to go out in a little bit and she’s calling to see if you want to stop by and hang out a little bit before your movie. You ignore the phone, you’ll call her back in a few minutes, this game is too important, you’ve got 15 bucks and your ego on the outcome. Peyton receives the snap, his line slides to handle the overload on the left and Clark stops Harrison in his tracks, Peyton scans the field and hits Reggie Wayne for 35-yard gain. Colts ball on the New England 16. Three plays later the colts are in the end zone, you’re ready to do back flips, but you know that New England still has a chance to get in field goal range. So you’re back on earth, calm and collected, ready to explode with tension. The kickoff travels a long time in the air letting the Colts’ coverage team make good progress before it’s even caught. One missed tackle, two missed tackles and day light, you’re ready to flip out, but then all is saved, the Colts not only save the touchdown but also strip the ball and recover it. 3 kneel downs later the game is over, you’ve won 15 bucks and are still undefeated on your floors “Madden Challenge”.
Many of us love Madden, many others love Madden more than the NFL, in the end both are based on competition between two teams of eleven “players” each. Madden is a Football video game where a teams success is determined by individual players making big plays, the NFL though is a different game, it’s truly defined by the eleven men on the field, and not by one or two of them. NFL teams have a certain set of things that they need to accomplish to be successful, on Offense that includes: limiting turnovers, running the ball when they have to, making plays in the passing game when called upon and in general being able to move the ball and score points, on defense you need to be able to stop the other team from running the ball or successfully throwing the ball. Turnovers greatly help this cause and can bail defenses out of earlier mistakes, but “big plays” are not the only part of the game, most NFL snaps are not “big plays” so on most downs what matters most is can the eleven guys on defense on the field on any given down do it’s job. To succeed in today’s NFL defenses need to stop the run to the inside, contain the run to the outside, get pressure, cover the middle, cover deep, cover the wide receivers on the outside and watch for screens, no one player can do it all on every single play, although Champ Bailey does try. That is why NFL defenses have so many different players playing the same position in so many different ways. Unfortunately this doesn’t sit well with the Madden generation, who want to watch Defensive Ends’s get sacks, Linebackers make tackles and Defensive Backs grab interceptions, there's no versatility in Madden, it doesn’t work and is superfluous. So most fans look at a player, look at his position and look if he’s doing what madden says good players at that position do.
Many times more educated football fans also fall for this trap, pigeon-holing players by the position they play, using that as an indicator of how they should play the game. This wouldn’t be a problem if, as NFL fans, competition wasn’t the sole reason we watch the game, unfortunately, as members of the Madden generation, we are beaten to death with competition at all levels of the sport, between organizations, between teams, between coaches and between players. It is this need to compare players and discover who is “best” that makes the pigeon holing of players so destructive, we compare players against others at their position instead of comparing them to others who have a similar impact.
One of the leagues most popular “positional” debates is between 3-4 outside Linebackers Shawne Merriman of the San Diego Chargers and DeMarcus Ware of the Dallas Cowboys. While the two lineup in a comparable position, which is why they are both referred to as outside linebackers, their impact on the game and playing style are as about as different as you can find in the NFL. Merriman is an elite pass rusher who is absolutely monstrous when pursuing the quarterback, he’s also been effective stopping teams from running the ball and this season actually been used to cover pass catchers, Ware meanwhile is also a talented pass rusher but is more importantly on of the league’s top 3-4 outside linebackers at covering pass catchers, both in man and in zone coverage, additionally he is exceptional at holding his lane against the run and slipping blockers to make tackles when runners do attack his gap. Now does it really make sense to compare these two players who are so incredibly different, merely because of the position they lineup at instead of the impact they have? Football is a game about eleven on eleven, the defensive eleven have to accomplish certain things and a players position isn’t the deciding factor when determining what he is able to give the defense. If a player was a defensive end but was dominant in deep zone coverage would that make him a poor defensive player? It’s clear that he would be an exceptional deep cover man and if that meant that he was less effective rushing the passer or stopping the run teams would need to adjust, either finding an linebacker or safety that would excel at rushing the passer to let the defensive end drop into coverage, and might be more effective.
It’s important for us, as fans, not to forget that the NFL is a team sport and that players do things on the field to help the team win, so what they accomplish isn’t about doing what a Linebacker is supposed to do, but rather what can that player do to help his team succeed.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/Ewing21403/suicide.gif

Beans
11-01-2007, 05:23 PM
what ......

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-01-2007, 05:30 PM
My bad. For some reason it didn't keep my paragraph breaks from word.

Scarface
11-01-2007, 05:39 PM
i think that peyton manning would win and get another commercial deal.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-01-2007, 05:55 PM
You actually expect somebody to read that?

i expect some people will read it and give me advice, it's the intro for an article my buddy's posting on his site about player comparisons, he picks some examples and breaksdown how different "elite" players help their teams from different spots on the field.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-01-2007, 05:57 PM
yes it is.
Just because they have different styles doesnt mean we cant compare them. yes they are different because they have a different amount of talent. WHich can be hard to measure

I agree that sometimes it's clear which player is superior, but in cases such as Ware v Merriman or Adrian Wilson v Troy P your comparing two players who are asked to do completely different things and so have completely different games based on the fact that they lineup in similar spots on the field.

neko4
11-01-2007, 06:00 PM
But you can still speak of which is more talented, i'll admit its hard because of how they are used

bigbluedefense
11-02-2007, 09:15 AM
For those that didn't read it, let me summarize quickly.

He's saying that its unfair to compare players just because they play the same position. Because with different teams and schemes, players have different responsibilities. 2 players can play the same position, have totally different roles, and have the same impact, thus making it difficult to compare the 2.

He also says that our need to constantly compare players comes from the Madden generation, and we look at fancy stats as proof which is not an accurate measure of success.

Alot of what he says is true. This is not baseball. Stats don't mean anything in football, which is why i hate using them as validation for why a certain player is better than another. Sometimes stats can't be ignored, but generally I like using the eyeball comparison moreso than stats.

However, I'll disagree on the point that players can't be compared. Because while positions have different responsibilities according to scheme, you can always evaluate players based on how well rounded they are.

Its a necessary evil to do so. Because without player comparisons, how would we have a Hall of Fame? Its never an easy thing to do, and often times we use inaccurate metrics to quantify who's better than who, but it is a necessary part of the game. And thats what we love doing as fans too. Without it, the sport wouldn't be as exciting as it is.

no love
11-02-2007, 03:25 PM
Thanks for the synopsis BBD. And I would argue that many times we turn to stats because it is something that we have been trained to take as fact or solid evidence.

Of course stats are no accurate measure of any sort of success, but it often works to validate what we know about a player. I admit I am guilty of using stats to try to prove my point often times because it is the only hard evidence that I can provide to back up my analysis of a player.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-05-2007, 06:18 PM
Thanks for the synopsis BBD. And I would argue that many times we turn to stats because it is something that we have been trained to take as fact or solid evidence.

Of course stats are no accurate measure of any sort of success, but it often works to validate what we know about a player. I admit I am guilty of using stats to try to prove my point often times because it is the only hard evidence that I can provide to back up my analysis of a player.

It's not just the abuse of stats it's that we use stats that don't even reflect what a player's job is but rather stats that we would like from a position but aren't necessitated, like sacks for DTs or run stuffing DEs.