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Flippityskip91
03-05-2009, 11:34 AM
against us if memory serves

That was why Jim Leonhard ended up playing so much on D for them last year.

CantStopGregJones
03-05-2009, 11:51 AM
Didn't he also have some sort of severe neck injury last year?

and he's going ot make a full recovery. He was said to be fine the week after it happened. It was, however, best for his healthy to keep him out the remainder f the season. I know I don't want to wait for him to get healthy in Baltimore and kick our a$$es again...

Flippityskip91
03-05-2009, 11:56 AM
and he's going ot make a full recovery. He was said to be fine the week after it happened. It was, however, best for his healthy to keep him out the remainder f the season. I know I don't want to wait for him to get healthy in Baltimore and kick our a$$es again...

If we were to get him, which S spot do you think he would play? What kind of a role would you expect him to have?

CantStopGregJones
03-05-2009, 12:56 PM
Him and Brodney pool both have the ability and experience playing FS and SS, so really it will all be up to the coaches where they play. Me peronally would like to see us attack the front 7 full force with guys like Raji(5) Barwin(36) and Gilbert(50) then play both safties are centerfielder types. The reason why Pittsburgh and Baltimore safteies make so many plays is because their front 7s allow them to roam and be heat seeking ball missles...where ever the ball goes they go 1000mph.

Iamcanadian
03-05-2009, 02:47 PM
No way Aaron Curry falls to us at #5, so now we have to look different routes :(

Sign Kevin Burnettt to play ILB instead then draft B.J. Raji(5) and Connor Barwin(36). Sign nickle Chris Carr and run stopping saftey James Butler...

DE Shaun Rogers
NT B.J. Raji
DE Corey Williams
OLB Connor Barwin
ILB Kevin Burnett
ILB D'Qwell Jackson
OLB Kamerion Wimbley
CB Eric Wright
CB Brandon McDonald
NB Chris Carr
FS Brodney Pool
SS James Butler

I like our chances with that defense.


I don't, it looks worse to me than last year's defense. Very doubtful that Rogers can be an effective DE in a 3-4. Fans keep saying he would do well there but there is no real evidence he would be effective at around 365lbs on the outside. There is absolutely no assurance that Barwin won't need a couple of years to adjust to pro ball, He's only played defense for a year or 2 so asking him to start is a bit naive IMO. Burnett couldn't beat out a bunch of bums in Dallas who play ILB for them, why would he suddenly start for us? We are still left with a mediocre pass rush, weakness at MLB, a very suspect defensive backfield and a DE who probably cannot play on the outside.
With this defense I don't see anyway we take a step forward next year. In fact, you would be negating Rogers ability to rush the passer because on the outside he will be playing against far superior athletes than OG's or OC's. He'll have to beat OT's who can match his quickness.

fear the elf
03-05-2009, 03:27 PM
so apparently we signed TE robert royal

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=524495

Brown Leader
03-05-2009, 04:13 PM
Him and Brodney pool both have the ability and experience playing FS and SS, so really it will all be up to the coaches where they play. Me peronally would like to see us attack the front 7 full force with guys like Raji(5) Barwin(36) and Gilbert(50) then play both safties are centerfielder types. The reason why Pittsburgh and Baltimore safteies make so many plays is because their front 7s allow them to roam and be heat seeking ball missles...where ever the ball goes they go 1000mph.

Pool is no missile-maby a scud.

Barwin looks like a project to me. He's got all the tools but may need a season or two to contribute full time.

CantStopGregJones
03-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Everyone who says they don't want Barwin because he'll take a year or two to make an impact is a jokster.

1. It doesn't matter who we draft or where they have over 90% chance they're not going to make an impact in year 1 or maybe even 2.

2. We're not looking at winning the super bowl next year. Mangini and Kokinis are doing it the right way...building for the future and they want the guys who are going to be the best 2-3 years from now and Barwin will be better than Maybin, Brown, Kruger, Sintim, Cushing or any f those scrubs 2-3 years from now.

3. I don't give a flying F who they are or what position they play I want the best player on the board at each pick and I'm talking the guy who is going to develop into th ebest player, not the best NFL ready guy who has little room for improvement.

wonderbredd24
03-05-2009, 08:13 PM
I want Barwin... at 50

Iamcanadian
03-05-2009, 08:28 PM
I like Barwin but unless you can read the future it's doubtful you can predict he'll end up better than all the prospects named. What do you base such a claim on, do you know him personally, did you interview him, have you watched a lot of pro quality film on him or maybe you worked him out at OLB in a 3-4. I don't think you've done any of those things so predicting his success is just wishful thinking IMO with no real basis in fact.
I think he has a solid chance to be a decent player but in the end, it will be up to him to reach his potential.

CantStopGregJones
03-05-2009, 08:28 PM
I want Barwin... at 50

New England will take him before then....if they don't take him at #34.

Everyone wants to rub nuts with Larry English, but they call Connor Barwin a small school project who's going to bus. I don't get it. Same with Clay Matthews(love him) everyone wants to have his babies, but then have the audacity to call Barwin a 1 year wonder. So many hypocrites in the draft world...

wonderbredd24
03-05-2009, 08:33 PM
I'm a huge Barwin guy, but I do not think the value is there at 36. Too many other more viable options

wonderbredd24
03-05-2009, 08:36 PM
We resigned Mike Adams for 3 years, $4.1 million.

Great signing. Adams was a great backup and a solid spot starter

Iamcanadian
03-05-2009, 08:40 PM
New England will take him before then....if they don't take him at #34.

Everyone wants to rub nuts with Larry English, but they call Connor Barwin a small school project who's going to bus. I don't get it. Same with Clay Matthews(love him) everyone wants to have his babies, but then have the audacity to call Barwin a 1 year wonder. So many hypocrites in the draft world...


Where do you get this from??? Barwin is a very decent prospect but has a ton of hard work ahead of him to reach his potential. He hasn't played defense too long and now he is being asked to switch to OLB in a 3-4 defense. It is extremely hard to call round 2 but he's not yet getting a whole lot of love by NFL personnel to my knowledge so he might well be available at #50.
If you want to say he is a solid 2nd rounder with a lot of potential, I have no problem with that, but to go on and say he'll end up better than almost every 3-4 OLB in the draft is a bit much and with no substance.

Brown Leader
03-05-2009, 08:46 PM
CantStopGregJones-Okay-You like Barwin and I'm a jokster-so be it.

As far as Mangikonas-it's way to early to say how good their doing. Your saying rookies don't make immediate impact or just our rookies? How do you figure?
Certainly not saying I don't want Barwin-what I am saying is that if some other guys are available before him (Matthews/English-I don't want to be anywhere near his nuts/Sintim-I'd rather them.(not his nuts)

And how do you know where not winning the SB this season? (there i go being a jokster again)

but to go on and say he'll end up better than almost every 3-4 OLB in the draft is a bit much and with no substance.
agreed.

CantStopGregJones
03-05-2009, 10:31 PM
Sintim is a joke. Matthews Jr. and Larry English are the guys I'd consider over Barwin because they are good players too, but Sintim and Everette Brown are the two biggest frauds in the draft as far as 34 rush backers go.

I've watched the guys ever single offensive and defensive snap, watched him play basketball, listened to several interviews...they guy is going to be a damn good football player. Demarcus Ware, Lawrence Taylor, Derrick Thomas? No not going to happen, but he can be a force much like Mike Vrable with more athletic abilities.


I'm done with you and I'm done with the other nay sayers on my other two stopss. I'm just going to let his future play in the league speak for me...

CantStopGregJones
03-05-2009, 10:35 PM
no substance? wtf is this big talk garbage?

I know more about Connor Barwin than any of you know about Brian Orakpo, Everette Brown or whoever. You're all basing opinions off off what is being fed to you through the internet and boob tube.

I've watched Barwin as much as anyone here has watched all your favorite prospects. The difference between us is that I don't let the emdia outlets do my thinking for me.

wonderbredd24
03-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Could you please elaborate on why you think Sintim and Brown are frauds?

CantStopGregJones
03-06-2009, 02:39 AM
Have you seen Brown play? The guy couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag, and to top things off the guy is by far the worst wrap up tackler I've seen in this draft. Thanks, but no thanks Cleveland already has huge issues with that on our current defense. He has 2 moved OMG such an improvement from Kam...his spin is insane I will giv ehim that though.

Clint Sintim is stiffer than a morning wood and he's a pure pass rusher...nothing special stopping the run and he's pathetic in coverage. He also gets swallowed u p by blockers tooeasy and doesn't shed blocks well at all.

I'm open to guys like Orakpo, Johnson, Maybin, Matthews, English and even Cushing, but never Brown or Sintim.

keylime_5
03-06-2009, 09:25 AM
Barwin would be The Guy to get in the 2nd round (likely would be at 36 tho) if we don't get a pass rusher in round one. If we take Crabtree at 5 and Barwin in round two then we'd use our other round 2 pick on a back, center, or safety most likely....maybe corner.

keylime_5
03-06-2009, 01:42 PM
Sean Jones is gonna sign with the Eeguls. I was hoping we could upgrade at safety anyway after Jones' poor 2008 season, but we haven't done much upgrading so far this offseason at any position yet.

wonderbredd24
03-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Losing Sean Jones is unfortunate. He's a good player when healthy and it just creates one more hole for a team with few draft picks, at least right now

JSimmsy21
03-06-2009, 03:02 PM
Was Sean Jones really that good? I don't know. He never went out and "made plays" he made a bunch of good tackles and had a few picks. I don't think we utilized him very well, I just don't know if he's really that good.

Anyways, the front 7 determines how well the back 4 do. And that's where ManKok is putting there attention.

Iamcanadian
03-06-2009, 03:26 PM
It is really tough to gage DB's on a team that has no pass rush. It leaves DB's out on an island with little help. It is always amazing how a great pass rush suddenly makesa your DB's look a lot better in coverage when the WR's don't have all day to get open.
Losing Jones is OK if you have an alternative starter but we don't so I don't know how this strengthens the defense. The list of needs just gets lomger and longer.

wonderbredd24
03-06-2009, 05:24 PM
Browns inked CJ Mosely for 2 years, $5 million.

Another good signing. Rotational DE

keylime_5
03-07-2009, 06:51 PM
what do you guys think we do at strong safety prior to the draft next month? I get a feeling that they'll probably bring in Lawyer Milloy or someone like that. No long term solutions out there, it looks like safety is a position you can add to the list of very very strong possibilities on the first day (along with linebacker, wideout, runningback, center, and corner).

wonderbredd24
03-07-2009, 09:25 PM
My theory is we draft someone or go with what we have.

I'm of the belief that the front office is fishing for a compensatory pick with Jones

keylime_5
03-07-2009, 09:52 PM
well if we do get a comp pick for Jones then it'll probably only be a late rounder considering he only signed that 1 year deal. Maybe it goes up if they extend him, I'm not 100% sure how that works. I could dig going into the season with Mike Adams and a 2nd rounder like Delmas, Smith, Johnson, or Chung battling it out for the open safety spot, but it might be better to bring in Milloy or someone like that and draft a safety in like round 4 so we can use the high picks for other positions. That would make it so we either get lucky with our 4th round safety who we can develop and have start eventually if he's good, or we could get a safety next offseason.

I'm not too big on investing 1st or 2nd round picks on DBs either until we have a pass rush and the run defense settled to some degree. Build inside - out. That's why I think it might be a good idea to stopgap at SS this year and address it later while we get a pass rusher and some run stoppers this year in the draft and FA.

barry
03-11-2009, 05:10 AM
RFA SS abram elam received an offer from the browns. 1 year, 1.5 mil guaranteed.

originally undrafted, signed by the dolphins, cowboys and jets.

mainly a special teams player, but they've been concentrating on that based on the names that have been coming up.

Flippityskip91
03-11-2009, 06:32 AM
RFA SS abram elam received an offer from the browns. 1 year, 1.5 mil guaranteed.

originally undrafted, signed by the dolphins, cowboys and jets.

mainly a special teams player, but they've been concentrating on that based on the names that have been coming up.

He started something like 19? games with the Jets so I would guess that is what Mangini is hoping he can do here. Probably compete with Adams for a starting spot so that he can avoid taking a SS high in this draft.

keylime_5
03-11-2009, 10:52 AM
he was a big play guy in New York as their strong safety. He's not a guy you'd sign as a long term solution but he's an up and comer and he can start at strong safety for us to replace Sean Jones. Here's hoping the Jets don't match the offer though b/c it's not that big of an offer.

I remember when he came out of college the Browns were interested, in fact on the OBR there was an article about him called "Browns find next gem?" or something like that (alluding to Antonio Gates who we were in on back in 2004 before the Chargers signed him). I think he played for Dallas early on before he made it with the Jets and started over Eric Smith.

Mr. Goosemahn
03-11-2009, 11:13 PM
So it looks like you guys released WR Joe Jurevicius

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AkbgyQAg6.TH_PwfKX_2X7xDubYF?slug=ap-browns-jurevicius&prov=ap&type=lgns

Any news if you're looking at Crabtree or something?

keylime_5
03-12-2009, 05:33 PM
Well with Shaffer's dead weight contract gone, this is our starting line going into the draft so far:

Thomas-Steinbach-Fraley-Hadnot-Tucker

Seems like we're tearing down and building back up the right side of the line with Tucker restructured and Shaffer sent off. No depth to speak of either. Tucker better stay healthy this year, and hopefully we draft Mack/Unger/Wood in round 2 (always good to pick a lineman first day every year). There is always the possibility of getting a FA veteran RT, or we could resign Shaffer for a lesser contract possibly.

wonderbredd24
03-12-2009, 08:33 PM
There is an offer for Shaffer to restructure, though I don't expect him to take it

The_Dude
03-12-2009, 09:45 PM
How bad is Shaffer? I always thought that he was decent... but i guess that i never watched him that closely.

wonderbredd24
03-13-2009, 08:22 AM
How bad is Shaffer? I always thought that he was decent... but i guess that i never watched him that closely.

He gets very little push in the running game and in the passing game, he seems to get driven back into the quarterback. He was better at guard when Tucker was at right tackle.

Flippityskip91
03-13-2009, 01:16 PM
He gets very little push in the running game and in the passing game, he seems to get driven back into the quarterback. He was better at guard when Tucker was at right tackle.

I recall it being the other way around, with Tucker inside. I remember hearing that he was tried at RG during training camp but never saw it on gameday. Either way, he's fairly solid if you've got a quality RG next to him...but there's nothing that he's great at.

keylime_5
03-13-2009, 05:12 PM
Floyd Womack signed. So now our O-Line goes:

LT-Thomas
LG-Steinbach
C-Fraley or Hadnot
RG-Womack
RT-Tucker

though Tucker and Womack can both play RT or RG.

Flippityskip91
03-14-2009, 01:39 PM
Just a couple quick things...First, not sure how many of you have heard about it, but Stallworth struck and killed someone with his car early this morning. There's a thread on the NFL board about it. I post the link here also.

Article - http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/03/browns_stallworth_involved_in.html

Thread - http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1546188#post1546188

Really sad, hoping it was just an accident and he wasn't drunk.

2nd, Anderson got his bonus yesterday, as did C. Williams, J. Lewis, Stallworth. They're also assuming that Rogers and Thomas got their bonuses. Here's the link, it's near the bottom of the article.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/03/browns_sign_barton_and_womack.html

So what does anyone think we'd be able to get for him now that his bonus is paid? Big arm, big QB, has experience...bad accuracy, bad decision-making. Those first 3 traits are very appealing since coaches tend to think they can fix the mental part. I would expect a 2nd at least, that is if we actually trade him.

j05son
03-14-2009, 03:08 PM
Here we go Cleveland Jets....

keylime_5
03-14-2009, 07:11 PM
So what does anyone think we'd be able to get for him now that his bonus is paid? Big arm, big QB, has experience...bad accuracy, bad decision-making. Those first 3 traits are very appealing since coaches tend to think they can fix the mental part. I would expect a 2nd at least, that is if we actually trade him.

Plus he went to a pro bowl with nearly 4000 yards and 29 TDs just a season before this one...the one where the offensive line, receivers, and runningbacks actually played well. He's also very young (1 year older than Brady Quinn). We better get a 2nd for him, anything less than a very high 3rd will be bad value IMO.

Flippityskip91
03-15-2009, 05:43 PM
Very true about the value issue. If we were taking a 3rd we would need to be getting perhaps a conditional pick for next year for the value to even be reasonable. I've never particularly liked DA but I can see where his value is as a young QB. For now though, nothing else to do but wait and see what takes place.

There really aren't that many places he could end up, but a couple of teams should be very interested. I would say the Lions and Jets are the most likely options although the Panthers, Bucs, Bears, and 49ers could all be looking for QB's this year as well but I wouldn't think those last 4 would pursue DA.

fenikz
03-16-2009, 03:09 PM
You guys mind telling me a little bit about Jason Wright?

Whis seems to think he can be our 3rd down RB

j05son
03-16-2009, 03:21 PM
You guys mind telling me a little bit about Jason Wright?

Whis seems to think he can be our 3rd down RB

He's a smart player, he can pick up the blitz, no liability as a blocker, he can go out and catch balls. He's not going to be a reliable runner at all, he's pretty average [at best] in his intangibles like speed. Harrison was far more talented then Wright but he couldn't block or pick up the blitz to save his life which is what Wright did for us.

Wright won't do anything big, won't break a run, or anything [might not even see the endzone] but he does the little things. He's an underrated player and a good signing for you IMO.

fenikz
03-16-2009, 04:38 PM
He's a smart player, he can pick up the blitz, no liability as a blocker, he can go out and catch balls. He's not going to be a reliable runner at all, he's pretty average [at best] in his intangibles like speed. Harrison was far more talented then Wright but he couldn't block or pick up the blitz to save his life which is what Wright did for us.

Wright won't do anything big, won't break a run, or anything [might not even see the endzone] but he does the little things. He's an underrated player and a good signing for you IMO.


Good, that's what I was hoping for, Don't need him for running much if we draft a RB to pair with Hightower, but what Edge had that he didn't was good pass blocking. Looks like it is a 2 year 2 million(which it think is basically the minimum) so solid signing I guess

thule
03-16-2009, 04:45 PM
wonderbredd24
I'm of the belief that the front office is fishing for a compensatory pick with Jones

your dreaming...they are salary based...and he got a small deal like someone said...if he gets a new deal that doesn't help you at all. Looks to be anywhere from a 5th-7th imo...

Anyways...not sure what the story is with Elam....if you guys got him or not. But he is a good player. He was the final cut in dallas the year he left and in hindsight he should have stayed. He is a player on defense and special teams....he still has lots of untapped potential. Good signing if you guys got/get him.

CantStopGregJones
03-17-2009, 09:42 PM
How about we make this offer for a 3 way deal? I believe all 3 teams win.

Denver receives:
Derek Anderson, #5, #20, #161
Denver gives up:
Jay Cutler, #12, #79, #141

Detroit receives:
Jay Cutler
Detroit gives up:
#20, #65, #161

Cleveland receives:
#12, #65, #79, #141
Cleveland gives up:
Derek Anderson, #5

kalbears13
03-18-2009, 02:01 AM
How about we make this offer for a 3 way deal? I believe all 3 teams win.

Denver receives:
Derek Anderson, #5, #20, #161
Denver gives up:
Jay Cutler, #12, #79, #141

Detroit receives:
Jay Cutler
Detroit gives up:
#20, #65, #161

Cleveland receives:
#12, #65, #79, #141
Cleveland gives up:
Derek Anderson, #5

How does Cleveland win? Although those 4 picks are nice, it still doesn't add up to the value of the #5, so basically we would be losing DA for nothing?

j05son
03-18-2009, 02:11 AM
How does Cleveland win? Although those 4 picks are nice, it still doesn't add up to the value of the #5, so basically we would be losing DA for nothing?

^this.

The 12+65+79+141 picks = 1695.5
The 5 pick is = 1700

We are giving Anderson away at 4.5 value or the 217th pick [25th pick in round 7]...

Value Chart [That is a staple in trading draft picks] http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/Value-Chart.php

Most people are hoping to get second to third round value for Anderson. 580 is the highest second rounder and 116 is the lowest third rounder. Average would be 348 [mid-late 2nd rounder]. Instead of getting ~348 for Anderson [well, hoping to get 348 for Anderson] we would be getting ~5.

Me Likey Rookies
03-18-2009, 02:29 AM
question: who is it that Mangini wants as his starter? I heard he wants DA instead of Quinn but then you guys are talking about trading away DA. What qb are most Browns fans rooting for?

kalbears13
03-18-2009, 02:46 AM
question: who is it that Mangini wants as his starter? I heard he wants DA instead of Quinn but then you guys are talking about trading away DA. What qb are most Browns fans rooting for?

Well personally I think Quinn is awesome and is going to be one of the greatest eventually. I actually heard them leaning towards Quinn because he fits the system better. So I would have to say he likes neither.

j05son
03-18-2009, 03:17 AM
question: who is it that Mangini wants as his starter? I heard he wants DA instead of Quinn but then you guys are talking about trading away DA. What qb are most Browns fans rooting for?

I would imagine Quinn as he's been in an offense similar to New England since Notre Dame. Plus he's all set to be the face of the franchise.

CantStopGregJones
03-18-2009, 04:11 AM
^this.

The 12+65+79+141 picks = 1695.5
The 5 pick is = 1700

We are giving Anderson away at 4.5 value or the 217th pick [25th pick in round 7]...

Value Chart [That is a staple in trading draft picks] http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/Value-Chart.php

Most people are hoping to get second to third round value for Anderson. 580 is the highest second rounder and 116 is the lowest third rounder. Average would be 348 [mid-late 2nd rounder]. Instead of getting ~348 for Anderson [well, hoping to get 348 for Anderson] we would be getting ~5.

You people are the biggest cry babies in the entire league. Piss an moan about "value" all you want, but the fact is teams aren't going to give up that much to move up to the Top 5 and haven't been doing so anymore. The trade value chart is grossly out dated. We would be stupid not to trade down with that offer. Its far more value and superior deal to the Jacksonville and Baltimore deal just last year.


4 picks> 1 pick
3 picks in the first 3 rounds> 1 pick

kalbears13
03-18-2009, 05:09 AM
You wanted our opinions and we gave our opinions. If your mind is so made up then why did you even ask?

CantStopGregJones
03-18-2009, 05:15 AM
It doesn't matter what the trade is you're all still going to be crying and pissing and moaning about this God forsaken mythical value. Build a bridge...


No team is going to give up chart value for the #5 pick especially with the sorry excuse of talent in this years Top 10.

BrownsTown
03-18-2009, 07:10 AM
It doesn't matter what the trade is you're all still going to be crying and pissing and moaning about this God forsaken mythical value. Build a bridge...


No team is going to give up chart value for the #5 pick especially with the sorry excuse of talent in this years Top 10.

You seem to be the only one crying here.

wonderbredd24
03-18-2009, 07:54 AM
When Mangini interviewed, he supposedly said he could win with Quinn.

He brought in an offense extremely similar to the one Quinn ran in college.

Mangini is a ball control guy who wants someone who will make smart decisions and not turn the ball over.

And does anyone here really think Derek Anderson can excel in an offense relying on timing and accuracy?

Flippityskip91
03-18-2009, 09:05 AM
No team is going to give up chart value for the #5 pick especially with the sorry excuse of talent in this years Top 10.

Teams fall in love with prospects all the time. They judge the talent and if there's someone that they deem worthy of their obsession then they will make a move if it's possible. Often times though, it's simply not possible to move up that high which is why so few teams ever trade out of the top 5.

In regards to the Quinn vs. Anderson issue, they apparently don't feel like picking one. I would assume that they're just playing for value by not committing. If you look at the offense that they're bringing in, then Quinn should be the guy. Like you mention wonderbredd, Anderson couldn't fit into and offense that relies on timing and accuracy.

wonderbredd24
03-18-2009, 09:08 AM
You're absolutely right about how they are trying to up the QBs' values.

Unfortunately as a side effect, it's completely bewildered guys like Mike Lombardi who think we will keep both and might even draft another one.

jj45
03-18-2009, 09:16 AM
How about we make this offer for a 3 way deal? I believe all 3 teams win.

Denver receives:
Derek Anderson, #5, #20, #161
Denver gives up:
Jay Cutler, #12, #79, #141

Detroit receives:
Jay Cutler
Detroit gives up:
#20, #65, #161

Cleveland receives:
#12, #65, #79, #141
Cleveland gives up:
Derek Anderson, #5

Still say cleveland gets shafted at least throw in marshall or royal something because if anything cleveland can make that trade same with the lions and probably get the 33 for derek anderson is they threw in a 3rd

Flippityskip91
03-18-2009, 09:23 AM
Unfortunately as a side effect, it's completely bewildered guys like Mike Lombardi who think we will keep both and might even draft another one.

Mike Lombardi always seems to be confused by something. Seriously, if you've got a logjam and need to pick between 2 QB's, why on earth would you bring in another one? You wouldn't, unless you were a complete idiot.

Brown Leader
03-18-2009, 11:45 AM
question: who is it that Mangini wants as his starter? I heard he wants DA instead of Quinn but then you guys are talking about trading away DA. What qb are most Browns fans rooting for?

...Cutler.

Flippityskip91
03-18-2009, 12:08 PM
...Cutler.

I don't care much for ultra-sensitive QBs who cry about their new coach not loving them to death.

wonderbredd24
03-18-2009, 12:55 PM
He seems to want to be coddled by McDaniels. Mangini is certainly not going to do it.

Just ask Rogers

Flippityskip91
03-18-2009, 01:05 PM
He seems to want to be coddled by McDaniels. Mangini is certainly not going to do it.

Just ask Rogers

Exactly. So there would be no sense in the Browns making a move to get him. Now if we were in a 3-way trade that allowed someone else to get him and us to grab some picks then I would have to consider it.

j05son
03-18-2009, 01:32 PM
It doesn't matter what the trade is you're all still going to be crying and pissing and moaning about this God forsaken mythical value. Build a bridge...


No team is going to give up chart value for the #5 pick especially with the sorry excuse of talent in this years Top 10.

You are the only one crying here. I see a pattern, you come on and talk about how bad this forum [Draft Countdown as a whole] because users are know-it-all's but really, they just debunk your outlandish thoughts and fantasies.

The reality is that teams DO go by the draft chart, it's a staple when trading picks. The reality is that it's always been difficult to trade out of the top 10. The reality is that no GM wants to accept a bad trade [such as the one you have us doing in which we give away Anderson, if we kept Anderson it wouldn't even be bad].

If you don't like what we have to say, don't ask our opinions. If you want people to go along with your silly ideas and praise them, then keep them to your friends or somewhere that the users aren't so into football.

Flippityskip91
03-18-2009, 02:27 PM
Hey, don't know if anyone read it yet but I didn't see it mentioned on here. We signed OT John St. Clair yesterday and HB Noah Herron today. So pretty much another versatile, veteran OL in addition to Floyd Womack as well as a 3rd down back/special teamer.

I like that we're only signing cheaper FAs, and adding depth to the OL. I'd really like to see some young depth on the OL though.

keylime_5
03-18-2009, 04:55 PM
The right side of the O-Line was clearly a priority, looks like we have pretty good depth there, though we don't have any young guys. This would be a good year to get some young centers, guards, and right tackles in the middle rounds to develop. Starting O-Line for 2009 looks solid though, and that was a problem area (one of many) for our offense last year:

LT-Thomas
LG-Steinbach
C-Fraley or Hadnot
RG-Tucker
RT-St.Clair

Plus Womack as the sixth man who can play RG or RT, with St.Clair being able to play LT, LG, RG, RT, and Tucker being able to play RG or RT. If we got a guy like Mack, Unger, or Wood in round 2 that would be a great pickup IMO.

wonderbredd24
03-18-2009, 05:14 PM
Assuming he is there at 36, it'd be extremely sad to see us pass on Mack

BrownsTown
03-18-2009, 06:51 PM
I like Noah Herron. Good depth signing.

Flippityskip91
03-18-2009, 10:04 PM
I like Noah Herron. Good depth signing.

Yea, he'll probably take on a role similar to what Jason Wright had as a gunner and backup RB.

On another note, rotoworld says we signed CB Corey Ivy today as well. They just keep bringing in cheap vets. He and Poteat I'm guessing would vie for the nickel? I was hoping for someone a bit better than either of them, but at least it comes cheap and you know there's little chance of them ousting Wright or McDonald, which should be a bit of a confidence booster for the 2 young CBs.

Brown Leader
03-18-2009, 10:30 PM
Flippityskip91
I don't care much for ultra-sensitive QBs who cry about their new coach not loving them to death.

wonderbredd24
He seems to want to be coddled by McDaniels. Mangini is certainly not going to do it.

Just ask Rogers

That sensitive stuff is bull. He wants out-McDaniels has questioned his effectiveness in his system even though he is the teams unquestioned leader-this stems from Shanahan's shock firing. I agree with Carucci on this.
Cutler can carry an offense by himself-I don't think the same can be said about Quinn. I'm pulling for Kokonis to make this happen.
w24-You mentioned coddled-some might call that respect.

CantStopGregJones
03-19-2009, 03:01 AM
You people are clueless if you believe we can get the #33 pick for Derek Anderson. Get real.

CantStopGregJones
03-19-2009, 03:03 AM
The right side of the O-Line was clearly a priority, looks like we have pretty good depth there, though we don't have any young guys. This would be a good year to get some young centers, guards, and right tackles in the middle rounds to develop. Starting O-Line for 2009 looks solid though, and that was a problem area (one of many) for our offense last year:

LT-Thomas
LG-Steinbach
C-Fraley or Hadnot
RG-Tucker
RT-St.Clair

Plus Womack as the sixth man who can play RG or RT, with St.Clair being able to play LT, LG, RG, RT, and Tucker being able to play RG or RT. If we got a guy like Mack, Unger, or Wood in round 2 that would be a great pickup IMO.

We've downgraded big time on the offensive line.

Hadnot> Womack
Shaffer>St. Clair

And we let quallity depth go in Seth McKinney.

wonderbredd24
03-19-2009, 08:03 AM
Flippityskip91

wonderbredd24


That sensitive stuff is bull. He wants out-McDaniels has questioned his effectiveness in his system even though he is the teams unquestioned leader-this stems from Shanahan's shock firing. I agree with Carucci on this.
Cutler can carry an offense by himself-I don't think the same can be said about Quinn. I'm pulling for Kokonis to make this happen.
w24-You mentioned coddled-some might call that respect.

Champ Bailey was the best corner in football. That did not Washington from shipping him to Denver. Did he cry? No.

Jay Cutler and his career losing record aren't nearly as good as he'd like to think.

Flippityskip91
03-19-2009, 09:11 AM
Flippityskip91

wonderbredd24


That sensitive stuff is bull. He wants out-McDaniels has questioned his effectiveness in his system even though he is the teams unquestioned leader-this stems from Shanahan's shock firing. I agree with Carucci on this.
Cutler can carry an offense by himself-I don't think the same can be said about Quinn. I'm pulling for Kokonis to make this happen.
w24-You mentioned coddled-some might call that respect.

If he's still bitter about Shanahan being fired then he needs to grow up. It's a business, you can't always have your favorite people coaching/playing with you. If you want an emotional rollercoaster type QB, he's your guy...and I'm not just talking about this issue. He's gotten short with people in the past, and it'll undoubtedly happen again.

Coddling is what you do to an infant. You don't have to treat someone like they're your greatest gift just because they're talented. It's obvious that Mangini won't do it, look at what happened with Rogers.

Brown Leader
03-19-2009, 01:39 PM
If he's still bitter about Shanahan being fired then he needs to grow up. It's a business, you can't always have your favorite people coaching/playing with you. If you want an emotional rollercoaster type QB, he's your guy...and I'm not just talking about this issue. He's gotten short with people in the past, and it'll undoubtedly happen again.

Coddling is what you do to an infant. You don't have to treat someone like they're your greatest gift just because they're talented. It's obvious that Mangini won't do it, look at what happened with Rogers.

Emotional/getting short-like getting into a fist fight in the weight room with a teammate? or getting seriously upset after a rookie hazing?

Coddling-I'm saying they[Cutler-Rogers] are expecting to be treated with respect, not expecting they're butts wiped.
This is that Carucci story i was talking about:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=090...s&confirm=true

I agree that his reasons for wanting out are primarily professional-not just immature bullsht. McDaniels had/has doubts when he first assessed his new team that Cutler could be as good in his system as someone like Cassell. Cutler and his agent may feel he could be more effective somewhere else. The sensitive angle is just pr wars. imo.

keylime_5
03-19-2009, 02:06 PM
We've downgraded big time on the offensive line.

Hadnot> Womack
Shaffer>St. Clair

And we let quallity depth go in Seth McKinney.

St.Clair is a solid veteran starter who can play either guard spot, is a good fit at RT, and can play LT (he started 16 games for the Bears at LT last year)....and he's a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY better value than Kevin Shaffer who sucked last year and in 2006 with his huge ass contract. Hadnot was crap last year, Womack is a better roadgrater type RG/RT, Hadnot will be playing RG and C this year anyways to compete with Fraley. I think with those guys we signed plus Ryan Tucker coming back our line for sure is better than it was last year, no way around it.

CantStopGregJones
03-19-2009, 05:36 PM
St. Clair is better value no arguement there, but he is not a better player.

wonderbredd24
03-19-2009, 05:42 PM
St. Clair is better value no arguement there, but he is not a better player.

Except when Tucker was next to him, it seemed like he was constantly driven into the backfield. I don't think he ever impressed me. He was floating between ok and mediocre.

I don't think St. Clair is the answer either, but at least he should be able to get outside and take on OLBs rushing the passer and provide depth. They need a more permanent solution to center, right guard, and right tackle.

CantStopGregJones
03-19-2009, 05:47 PM
Except when Tucker was next to him, it seemed like he was constantly driven into the backfield. I don't think he ever impressed me. He was floating between ok and mediocre.

I don't think St. Clair is the answer either, but at least he should be able to get outside and take on OLBs rushing the passer and provide depth. They need a more permanent solution to center, right guard, and right tackle.

Hadnot is a fine center. He suffered from playing next to the ultimate suck that is Fraley and Kevin Shaffer.

I think we should draft a RT this year...hopefully Jamon Meredtih or T.J. Lang in the 2nd or aquired 3rd. We could draft a guard too, but Tucker is a fine solution this year and we could draft a guard next year or sign someone like Rob Sims in free agency. If we get another pick we could draft Meredith and Lang both because they both have played 4 positions and have the ability to do so in the pros too.

wonderbredd24
03-19-2009, 05:52 PM
I'd love to have Tucker back. He's still an excellent player, but he's no guarantee.

Jamon Meredith at right tackle? I dunno. I'd like to see us grab someone who gets more push in the running game, but he could add power I suppose.

The only Right Tackle prospects I really like are Michael Oher, Fenuki Topou, and if he can get clean, Alex Boone. Otherwise, I am not impressed in the least.

CantStopGregJones
03-19-2009, 05:55 PM
I'd love to have Tucker back. He's still an excellent player, but he's no guarantee.

Jamon Meredith at right tackle? I dunno. I'd like to see us grab someone who gets more push in the running game, but he could add power I suppose.

The only Right Tackle prospects I really like are Michael Oher, Fenuki Topou, and if he can get clean, Alex Boone. Otherwise, I am not impressed in the least.

Alex Boone sucks. Oher is not worth #5. Jamon Meredith is one of the most powerful tackles in the draft and perfect fit for RT along with TJ Lang. Ya know what I'm not even going to talk to you about this..you shoot down meredith then suggest Alex Boone. Laughable. Go back to your madden game.

kalbears13
03-19-2009, 06:09 PM
What about moving Tucker to RT and drafting somebody like Eric Wood who could play RG or C.

wonderbredd24
03-19-2009, 06:10 PM
Alex Boone sucks. Oher is not worth #5. Jamon Meredith is one of the most powerful tackles in the draft and perfect fit for RT along with TJ Lang. Ya know what I'm not even going to talk to you about this..you shoot down meredith then suggest Alex Boone. Laughable. Go back to your madden game.

If Meredith is as powerful as you suggest, he certainly doesn't play that way. And judging by his athletic ability and footwork, he'd be a 1st round pick. As it is, he's a finesse blocker.

I did not suggest taking Oher at 5. I just said he'd be a very nice right tackle.

Alex Boone is not a good left tackle, but he's a pretty good football player. Afterall, he was able to shut down a guy we might pick at 5 in Orakpo. Boone is a solid enough run blocker and he's pretty decent in the passing game. And we could get Boone late in the draft.. like round 5-7 as opposed to Meredith who will be gone in the 2nd or 3rd round.

keylime_5
03-19-2009, 06:26 PM
Meredith's best position might be left guard in the NFL. he was real inconsistent his senior year, but he has excellent tools.

The good thing about right tackles and right guards is that most NFL starters from those two positions were drafted in the middle rounds. We could take a developmental guy or two in the middle of the draft to groom as future starters. Not many good pure right tackles or guards to be had in the 2nd round anyway this year.

CantStopGregJones
03-20-2009, 08:39 AM
If Meredith is as powerful as you suggest, he certainly doesn't play that way. And judging by his athletic ability and footwork, he'd be a 1st round pick. As it is, he's a finesse blocker.

I did not suggest taking Oher at 5. I just said he'd be a very nice right tackle.

Alex Boone is not a good left tackle, but he's a pretty good football player. Afterall, he was able to shut down a guy we might pick at 5 in Orakpo. Boone is a solid enough run blocker and he's pretty decent in the passing game. And we could get Boone late in the draft.. like round 5-7 as opposed to Meredith who will be gone in the 2nd or 3rd round.

You need to check yourself, go back and watch some film, and get your story straight.

1. Meredith is powerful watch some damn film, and then wittness the fact that only two tackles out pressed him at the combine. Most importantly watch the leg drive on film. You're just saying he's finesse because thats what media outlets are telling you. South Carolina was a finesse offense it wasn't his fault he didn't get to run block under Steve Spurries joke of a scheme.

2. Shut up with the Boone garbage. He's a head case with minimal talent = undrafted scrub.

3. Whoever said Meredith would be a guard then so be it. Re read my post. I mentioned he could play guard and TJ Lang who is one of the best Oline prosepects in the draft could play RT.

Thomas
Steinbach
Hadnot
Meredith/Lang
Lang/Meredith

If both end up guards then so what? Eric Steinbach is 29 years old with a huge cap number.

kalbears13
03-22-2009, 02:17 AM
So who is the #2 receiver now? Cribbs? Hubbard?

(Somewhat serious question.)

barry
03-22-2009, 04:46 AM
St.Clair is a solid veteran starter who can play either guard spot, is a good fit at RT, and can play LT (he started 16 games for the Bears at LT last year)....and he's a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY better value than Kevin Shaffer who sucked last year and in 2006 with his huge ass contract.

the question i have is why did the bears low-ball so badly him on his contract offer? granted, they drafted williams last year in the first round to take over at LT, so they weren't going to offer st clair LT starter money, but their RT tait also just retired, so with st clair's defection, the bears were forced to move their new FA backup guard omiyale to RT since backup RT balogh apparently wasn't cutting it, so it's not like the bears were dealing from a position of strength negotiating with st clair. hopefully their apparent stupidity is our gain.

BeerBaron
03-22-2009, 11:48 AM
the question i have is why did the bears low-ball so badly him on his contract offer? granted, they drafted williams last year in the first round to take over at LT, so they weren't going to offer st clair LT starter money, but their RT tait also just retired, so with st clair's defection, the bears were forced to move their new FA backup guard omiyale to RT since backup RT balogh apparently wasn't cutting it, so it's not like the bears were dealing from a position of strength negotiating with st clair. hopefully their apparent stupidity is our gain.

I was just here to look up some info on the Brown's draft needs for an explanation in my upcoming mock, but I saw this so I thought I'd give you my thoughts.

St. Clair's biggest attribute to us was his versatility. He played LT for us last year, but was borderline adequate. His value was much better at RT, and even if we did bring him back to play there, we likely would have still been looking for one early in the draft. St. Clair would then have slid to LG to pair with our other versatile FA signing Frank Omiyale who looks to be our starting RG.

I think our GM Jerry Angelo just didn't view St. Clair as that important of a starter. I was sure that St. Clair was just trying to use you guys to get a deal and have Angelo match it, but Angelo didn't. Why? Who knows....JA probably feels he can get an upgrade at RT in the first two rounds of the draft.

So enjoy St. Clair, but if your expecting some awesome starter, he's going to disappoint you. An adequate, quick-fix starter who can flip to LT should an injury occur there, yeah, that's what your getting. If you don't already have one on your roster, I'd still look for a future RT in the mid-rounds to groom behind him.

kalbears13
03-22-2009, 09:37 PM
j05son, how long have you been the Team Leader?

And on another note, I am happy with the current activity on the Browns Forum.

BrownsTown
03-22-2009, 09:42 PM
So who is the #2 receiver now? Cribbs? Hubbard?

(Somewhat serious question.)

Crabtree

!

kalbears13
03-22-2009, 09:43 PM
Crabtree

!

That's actually why I was asking...especially since we haven't gone anywhere in FA.

wonderbredd24
03-22-2009, 09:53 PM
At this point, you have to think its Syndric Steptoe. While I think he's a decent receiver, he has no business being anything above 3rd or 4th WR as of yet.

Beyond that, you're holding out hope for Paul Hubbard.

Personally, I have no problem with taking Crabtree. I think he'd be a great fit for the offense and with Edwards there, he doesn't need to be THE guy right away, which may help him develop.

keylime_5
03-22-2009, 11:20 PM
I saw that the Plain Dealer reported the only 2 guys who are "untradable" this year are Joe Thomas and D'Qwell Jackson. I wonder if they like DQ that much or if it's just a result of how terrible we are at linebacker outside of Jackson. I'm not surprised though, no one else on the team is inexpendable except Joe Thomas.

And I wish we'd sign some veteran WR to start across from Braylon. It sucks to go into the draft with a #1 WR who is going into his contract year and then a bunch of #4 and #5 receivers behind him on the roster.

j05son
03-23-2009, 03:41 AM
j05son, how long have you been the Team Leader?

And on another note, I am happy with the current activity on the Browns Forum.

08-25-2008 was my first post in the hidden team leaders board...

RoyHall#1 recommended me some time ago but JBond said I wasn't active enough but offered it to me a couple months later...

Yeah, I'm quite pleased on how the new users are turning out but wish we had some of the older guys still around... =[

kalbears13
03-23-2009, 03:44 AM
08-25-2008 was my first post in the hidden team leaders board...

RoyHall#1 recommended me some time ago but JBond said I wasn't active enough but offered it to me a couple months later...

Yeah, I'm quite pleased on how the new users are turning out but wish we had some of the older guys still around... =[

Oh wow, I didn't notice until just now...well congrats.

You wish tbraton was still around??? :P

j05son
03-23-2009, 03:46 AM
Oh wow, I didn't notice until just now...well congrats.

You wish tbraton was still around??? :P

It's funny you say that, as I had one of tbraton's alt's [Brownie] banned...

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12794&page=4

=P

But thanks man. =]

RoyHall#1
03-23-2009, 05:07 PM
Aw I miss tbra.. ha ha. I'd post here more if I could contribute :(

But yeah, I wish JoeMontanya and Freddy G were still posting. Snazel was pretty good too.

TRich28
03-23-2009, 05:14 PM
Supposedly, the Browns will be signing David Patten from New Orleans. Veteran WR, but probably not the one I would have chosen...

wonderbredd24
03-23-2009, 05:24 PM
Supposedly, the Browns will be signing David Patten from New Orleans. Veteran WR, but probably not the one I would have chosen...

He's 35 and played with the Browns in 2000.

I don't know if this is an indication that we'll be drafting a wide receiver or not, but it could be.

kalbears13
03-23-2009, 05:31 PM
Aw I miss tbra.. ha ha. I'd post here more if I could contribute :(

But yeah, I wish JoeMontanya and Freddy G were still posting. Snazel was pretty good too.

and DChess.

RoyHall#1
03-23-2009, 05:53 PM
He wasn't on here much but, yeah, I forgot him.

kalbears13
03-23-2009, 05:59 PM
He wasn't on here much but, yeah, I forgot him.

Wow, was that really it? I felt like we had way more than that.

barry
03-23-2009, 08:17 PM
I was just here to look up some info on the Brown's draft needs for an explanation in my upcoming mock, but I saw this so I thought I'd give you my thoughts.

St. Clair's biggest attribute to us was his versatility. He played LT for us last year, but was borderline adequate. His value was much better at RT, and even if we did bring him back to play there, we likely would have still been looking for one early in the draft. St. Clair would then have slid to LG to pair with our other versatile FA signing Frank Omiyale who looks to be our starting RG.

I think our GM Jerry Angelo just didn't view St. Clair as that important of a starter. I was sure that St. Clair was just trying to use you guys to get a deal and have Angelo match it, but Angelo didn't. Why? Who knows....JA probably feels he can get an upgrade at RT in the first two rounds of the draft.

So enjoy St. Clair, but if your expecting some awesome starter, he's going to disappoint you. An adequate, quick-fix starter who can flip to LT should an injury occur there, yeah, that's what your getting. If you don't already have one on your roster, I'd still look for a future RT in the mid-rounds to groom behind him.

thanks. apparently he's still an upgrade over shaffer, and we're paying him less than we paid shaffer.

barry
03-23-2009, 08:26 PM
Personally, I have no problem with taking Crabtree. I think he'd be a great fit for the offense and with Edwards there, he doesn't need to be THE guy right away, which may help him develop.

i started thinking the same way mainly because nobody else excites me as a surefire pick; i don't want to waste that high a draft pick on a non-LT OL, or a DE/OLB project who could turn out to be another gholston, and even if curry were to fall to #5, a guy who can play in a 3-4 or a 4-3 as a linebacker suggests to me that he's giving something up in either role.

i want us to take a guy who can play right away, not be a stretch, and fit the scheme we're trying to establish to give the team an identity.

j05son
03-23-2009, 09:35 PM
Wow, was that really it? I felt like we had way more than that.

The guys I mostly remember are JoeM, FreddyG, Snazel, DChess, Royhall, BT, Jsimmsy, Canadian, kbn720 [<-i might have the username wrong], McDlox, eliteeagle, keylime, jriles, and you...

^This is back when we were transitioning from just having a Team based thread [Cleveland Browns Discussion Thread] to every team having their own board...Only recalled good posters, as I remember TBra and DawgBone as well...

That's like 6/14 active members from the old original guys that were posting here....I definitely like how we're growing though. I lurked here for a couple months before joining, and I'm sure there's many lurking now...

keylime_5
03-23-2009, 09:45 PM
I remember way back we had that one guy who was always talking about changing the helmets, and he even had an avatar with his "idea" in there. Can't recall his handle though.

kalbears13
03-24-2009, 12:44 AM
I remember way back we had that one guy who was always talking about changing the helmets, and he even had an avatar with his "idea" in there. Can't recall his handle though.

I believe that was me. :D I don't recall the avatar though...

j05son
03-24-2009, 01:57 AM
I remember way back we had that one guy who was always talking about changing the helmets, and he even had an avatar with his "idea" in there. Can't recall his handle though.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7358

That? It's still on the front page, not that long ago...

I still think Brownie the elf should be our logo...

kalbears13
03-24-2009, 02:18 AM
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7358

That? It's still on the front page, not that long ago...

I still think Brownie the elf should be our logo...

HAHAHA wow. That was freaking 2 years ago. I remember doing that in Chemistry in 11th grade.

Brown Leader
03-24-2009, 03:35 PM
Quinn, Anderson to vie for QB job

Why is it not surprising that Mangini doesn't want to pick a starter-this is the same guy who wanted Clemens over Pennington. This is the reason I'd rather a deal for Cutler-Gini doesn't get it with QB's. DA has already disproven himself in Clev. but now Quinn has to look over his shoulder.
"What I haven't ruled out is [general manager] George [Kokinis] and I looking at any opportunity to improve the team," he said, according to the Plain Dealer. "But I in no way am saying that is specific to the quarterback situation. But we would look at any opportunity we thought would improve the team."
In other words if we can get Cutler we'll do it-otherwise they'll compete for the start-or if some foolish squad wants to give up a kings ransom for DA we'll move him. I think everyone involved but Mankok is tired of the Anderson/Quinn thing. QB competition = I don't know how to effectively evaluate talent or worse, we don't have good talent.

wonderbredd24
03-24-2009, 03:40 PM
Quinn, Anderson to vie for QB job

Why is it not surprising that Mangini doesn't want to pick a starter-this is the same guy who wanted Clemens over Pennington. This is the reason I'd rather a deal for Cutler-Gini doesn't get it with QB's. DA has already disproven himself in Clev. but now Quinn has to look over his shoulder.

In other words if we can get Cutler we'll do it-otherwise they'll compete for the start-or if some foolish squad wants to give up a kings ransom for DA we'll move him. I think everyone involved but Mankok is tired of the Anderson/Quinn thing. QB competition = I don't know how to effectively evaluate talent or worse, we don't have good talent.

The Browns will not trade for Cutler. There, I said it. There is no way Mangini wants Cutler. It makes no sense from any number of angles.

As far as Anderson and Quinn go... I expect the front office will say they are keeping both of them until one of them (Anderson) is gone. I am convinced Derek Anderson has no place in this offense. I don't think he can run it with any level of effectiveness and therefore would be a terrible backup.

mcdlaxbonz13
03-24-2009, 03:56 PM
Has anyone else read Steve Wyche's article on Curry looking to go first overall. The only reason i bring this up is that he mentions the teams that have asked or already held a private workout with Curry and our team name isn't on the list. The only way this makes sense is that the orginization already know that he won't be there and if he is were taking him, but still you would think they would at least want to see the kid in person. Just the thoughts of an old time poster

wonderbredd24
03-24-2009, 04:00 PM
I'm sure they talked to him at the combine. In fact, when asked about Cleveland, Curry thought he'd fit in nicely next to D'Qwell Jackson.

Why hold a private workout if you already know everything you need to know?

He's the best player in the draft and I'm not ruling him out at 5.

I don't think Detroit can take him. If for no other reason, shame. They have to take a QB or Tackle.

St. Louis needs let Pace go. They are taking a tackle.

I still think Kansas City may take Raji #3 overall. To my knowledge, they have no one to play nose and they aren't going to be able to get Brace either short of trading up and mortgaging parts of next year's draft.

Seattle has a ton of money invested at LB even after the Peterson trade and with 3 Pro Bowl caliber LBs, they only won 4 games.

Brown Leader
03-24-2009, 04:00 PM
I am convinced Derek Anderson has no place in this offense. I don't think he can run it with any level of effectiveness and therefore would be a terrible backup.
But I wonder if they'll wait till training camp to figure that out.

kalbears13
03-24-2009, 04:02 PM
Has anyone else read Steve Wyche's article on Curry looking to go first overall. The only reason i bring this up is that he mentions the teams that have asked or already held a private workout with Curry and our team name isn't on the list. The only way this makes sense is that the orginization already know that he won't be there and if he is were taking him, but still you would think they would at least want to see the kid in person. Just the thoughts of an old time poster

I'm pretty sure the Browns are having a private workout with him from what I've heard.

wonderbredd24
03-24-2009, 04:03 PM
But I wonder if they'll wait till training camp to figure that out.

It's possible. If some QB goes down to injury, Anderson may be their only option.

kalbears13
03-24-2009, 04:03 PM
But I wonder if they'll wait till training camp to figure that out.

I have a good feeling that they're doing it to encourage a trade. I really hope they're not serious.

jriles0522
03-24-2009, 04:13 PM
I just don't see how Anderson and Quinn can be on this team again for another year. I also think that moving Quinn is a mistake. Take what you can get for Anderson, he doesn't want to be here and is a bad fit for the offense anyway.

With Winslow gone, and Edwards maybe having a foot out the door already, next year for sure, this is not going to be a gunsling offense like it was when DA went to the Pro Bowl. Hopefully, we can get another high pick or two (rd 2 higher) and address all the holes we still have on this team.

Last, just wondering what you guys thought of that rumor of Edwards going to the Giants for a 2nd a 5th and Hixon or Manningham? I know Hixon showed some flashes, but I didn't hear much about Manningham.

Edwards is gone next year anyway, do you think that is ok value for him? I was actually looking through the Giants thread and they weren't too high on Braylon and I wonder if that's the sentiment after his terrible year.

j05son
03-24-2009, 04:13 PM
I have a good feeling that they're doing it to encourage a trade. I really hope they're not serious.

I think so as well.

If they go out and say, Quinn is the starter like Romeo did, that greatly diminishes Anderson's trade value.

I'm not worried what-so-ever about the competition at QB. Quinn already stated he was expecting some sort of competition, whether it be from Derek or from someone else. He stated he likes competition as it is an extra drive to achieve and get better.

I don't think we go Cutler either, he's more of a Brett Farve, gunslinger who was immature with his first team and I doubt Mangini will want to put up with that again. Plus Cutler doesn't have the balls to play in Cleveland. He'll go through a lot more here then he ever did in Denver.

I just don't see how Anderson and Quinn can be on this team again for another year. I also think that moving Quinn is a mistake. Take what you can get for Anderson, he doesn't want to be here and is a bad fit for the offense anyway.

With Winslow gone, and Edwards maybe having a foot out the door already, next year for sure, this is not going to be a gunsling offense like it was when DA went to the Pro Bowl. Hopefully, we can get another high pick or two (rd 2 higher) and address all the holes we still have on this team.

Last, just wondering what you guys thought of that rumor of Edwards going to the Giants for a 2nd a 5th and Hixon or Manningham? I know Hixon showed some flashes, but I didn't hear much about Manningham.

Edwards is gone next year anyway, do you think that is ok value for him? I was actually looking through the Giants thread and they weren't too high on Braylon and I wonder if that's the sentiment after his terrible year.

Honestly, I don't think we trade him. I think we wait see how things progress, and either sign him for a deal, or tag and trade. His value is horrible at the moment. He's going to be playing for a payday and history has taught us anything, it's that players will somehow preform when they have millions on the line.

keylime_5
03-24-2009, 08:05 PM
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7358

That? It's still on the front page, not that long ago...

I still think Brownie the elf should be our logo...


no that's not it. This was way back in 2005 or so when I just joined. He had like a white helmet with a cheesy "C" and "B" on the helmet. He hasnt posted here in at least 3 years, but he used to be the most active Browns poster on here other than DChess. Good times though.

kalbears13
03-24-2009, 08:28 PM
no that's not it. This was way back in 2005 or so when I just joined. He had like a white helmet with a cheesy "C" and "B" on the helmet. He hasnt posted here in at least 3 years, but he used to be the most active Browns poster on here other than DChess. Good times though.

haha that still could have been me.

kalbears13
03-25-2009, 12:35 AM
These aren't really important to the Cleveland Browns team or the NFL Draft but I got a good chuckle from them.

Hitler and the Cleveland Browns 2008 Season
LO79sqtbo6o

Whose Line?- Cleveland Browns
2wvUIVu_6U8

fear the elf
03-25-2009, 08:34 AM
I still think Brownie the elf should be our logo...

i totally agree!

JSimmsy21
03-25-2009, 10:11 AM
i personally wouldn't mind if we changed our team name. seeing all the other teams have kickass logos bums me out sometimes. Granted, I love the team history and all its about, but this isn't those Cleveland Browns anymore.

Has anyone else seen the new Detroit uni's? Awesome!

Iamcanadian
03-25-2009, 11:26 AM
As for Anderson/Quinn, when you bring in a new management team you are back to square one and Magini will want to go through the competitive process before deciding who his starting QB will be. It will likely be another year before one of them is traded.

wonderbredd24
03-25-2009, 11:45 AM
As for Anderson/Quinn, when you bring in a new management team you are back to square one and Magini will want to go through the competitive process before deciding who his starting QB will be. It will likely be another year before one of them is traded.

I disagree. If you've ever watched Anderson play, you already now he would struggle in the offense they intend to bring in.

Just like if they were to bring in a Run 'N' Shoot, Quinn would struggle

wonderbredd24
03-25-2009, 11:46 AM
i personally wouldn't mind if we changed our team name. seeing all the other teams have kickass logos bums me out sometimes. Granted, I love the team history and all its about, but this isn't those Cleveland Browns anymore.

Has anyone else seen the new Detroit uni's? Awesome!

I wouldn't change a thing with the Browns' name, colors, or anything.

It's possibly the most original team in sports.

j05son
03-25-2009, 03:58 PM
i totally agree!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Browns_1950_Logo.PNG

Brown Leader
03-25-2009, 10:22 PM
i personally wouldn't mind if we changed our team name. seeing all the other teams have kickass logos bums me out sometimes. Granted, I love the team history and all its about, but this isn't those Cleveland Browns anymore.

Has anyone else seen the new Detroit uni's? Awesome!

UHHGH! Sacrilegious. Only thing I'd like to see changed is some cheerleaders. Call them the Brownies so we can drop that sissy nick name.

Brown Leader
04-02-2009, 09:37 PM
Courtesy Winslowbodden:

Chicago Sun-times
Cleveland might have been the winner of the Cutler sweepstakes had the player's agent, Bus Cook, not represented Brett Favre and saw the struggles the long-time Green Bay star had with coach Eric Mangini.

Mangini was fired by the Jets and landed in Cleveland. He reportedly was willing to give up Brady Quinn in a deal. Quinn, who played for Charlie Weis at Notre Dame, presumably would have been a good fit in McDaniels' system. But Cook had made it clear when talks began that Cutler wanted no part of Mangini and fears he wouldn't report to the Browns effectively shut down that deal.

...thanks Gini

keylime_5
04-02-2009, 09:54 PM
We don't need freakin' Cutler anyway. Not many Browns fans actually wanted to trade for him.

And anyone who thought Favre was gonna put up the numbers he put up in Green Bay's 2007 offense while in New York for one year in the new system that didn't fit his game needs their head examined.

osubrowns
04-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Journalist are stupid anyway. They don't know jack about sports they just like to stir things up amoung fans.

j05son
04-03-2009, 01:55 AM
Courtesy Winslowbodden:

Chicago Sun-times


...thanks Gini

I know, THANK YOU Mangini. Cutler would have been a nightmare in Cleveland, glad he didn't come here.

barry
04-03-2009, 05:43 AM
UHHGH! Sacrilegious. Only thing I'd like to see changed is some cheerleaders. Call them the Brownies so we can drop that sissy nick name.

moist, delicious, finger lickin' good?

edible, but not digestible?

Iamcanadian
04-03-2009, 07:00 AM
Sorry but I have to disagree on Cutler. Last I looked NE, Indy, Pittsburgh and the Giants all have franchise QB's and when you have an opportunity to get one who is 25 with a full career ahead of him, you pay the price no matter what it costs. We could go another decade and not have a franchise QB to take us to the SB. Look what the Giants paid for Eli and they are one of the smartest franchises in the NFL.
This was a failure on our management's abilities and to me at least, a strong indicator that we are going no where fast.

wonderbredd24
04-03-2009, 08:23 AM
Cutler would not have fit here in addition to the fact he said he didn't want to go to any team with a head coach part of the Belichick tree.

Mangini is not going to coddle anyone and Cutler clearly wants to be coddled.

Cutler's gun slinging style of play does not mesh with what Mangini wants to do; control the ball, make smart decisions, limit turnovers.

Mangini has what he wants in Quinn even if Quinn hasn't proven it yet on the field.

By the way, Phillip Rivers is currently one of the best quarterbacks in football and they also got Shawn Merriman in that deal for Eli Manning. I don't think San Diego is having buyer's remorse on that

keylime_5
04-03-2009, 09:01 AM
They got nate kaeding, shawne merriman, philip rivers, and a pick they traded for roman oben out of the eli manning deal. Eli is a good QB and he has a ring, but Rivers is just as good (and merriman might be the best pass rusher in the NFL), SD won out on that trade. I know Cutler is a great QB and he'll go to many more pro bowls, but I wonder if Denver is gonna make out in the end with two first round picks and a 3rd round pick.....chances are they'll get Mark Sanchez as replacement whether it be at 12 overall or a tradeup and I think he'll be pretty good, especially in McDaniels' offense. I am 100% behind taking our chances with Brady Quinn.

Look at it this way, if we gave up on Quinn that means that 2008 first round pick and 2007 high 2nd round pick we traded for Quinn went to waste since we'd likely have to give up Quinn plus a 2010 first rounder or more for Cutler.

keylime_5
04-03-2009, 09:08 AM
...don't get me wrong about the DEN/CHI trade though, I think Chicago did what was necessary. They haven't had a QB in 10000 years and now they have a great young proven passer for the first time...ever. It's not the same situation as NYG/SD where the Giants should've just stayed at 4 and taken Rivers and let SD deal with the Manning headache. Chicago has no option like that, they get a stud QB and give up the chance of taking what was probably gonna be a #2 WR (DH Bey?), and a mid-late 1st rounder in 2010. Good move. Denver should be fine in the end though with 2 first round picks the next 2 years

Iamcanadian
04-13-2009, 12:20 AM
...don't get me wrong about the DEN/CHI trade though, I think Chicago did what was necessary. They haven't had a QB in 10000 years and now they have a great young proven passer for the first time...ever. It's not the same situation as NYG/SD where the Giants should've just stayed at 4 and taken Rivers and let SD deal with the Manning headache. Chicago has no option like that, they get a stud QB and give up the chance of taking what was probably gonna be a #2 WR (DH Bey?), and a mid-late 1st rounder in 2010. Good move. Denver should be fine in the end though with 2 first round picks the next 2 years

Anytime a trade brings you a Super Bowl ring, I'll take it at the drop of a hat. Now Mangini wants to dump Quinn and Edwards anyways so what did we gain in the end???
Mangini has obviously decided to start from scratch with another 5 year plan which may or may not work. I cannot see us reaching the playoffs for at least 5 to 10 years when IMO, we were at least on the doorstep of being a playoff contender having got past that miserable schedule we drew last year.
We were a relatively young team still on the rise and now we must start all over according to Mangini.
I never thought I'd see the day when the Browns were run into the ground like this, but I guess I never thought we'd get an owner as bad as Lerner.

Number 10
04-16-2009, 10:37 AM
Just thought I'd let you guys know...

This Edwards trade to the Giants is about 90% done. The only hold up is contract exntension talks. Sounds like 2 picks in this draft and a performance based conditional pick in 2010 in case Edwards goes off in NY. If you want any more details, I'd prefer you PM me.

BaLLiN
04-16-2009, 10:40 AM
Just thought I'd let you guys know...

This Edwards trade to the Giants is about 90% done. The only hold up is contract exntension talks. Sounds like 2 picks in this draft and a performance based conditional pick in 2010 in case Edwards goes off in NY. If you want any more details, I'd prefer you PM me.

wow i swear to god if its a 1st and 4th then comp (possible 4th-5th) you guys wasted all your time trying to convince me into a 1st and 3rd deal

fear the elf
04-16-2009, 11:09 AM
Just thought I'd let you guys know...

This Edwards trade to the Giants is about 90% done. The only hold up is contract exntension talks. Sounds like 2 picks in this draft and a performance based conditional pick in 2010 in case Edwards goes off in NY. If you want any more details, I'd prefer you PM me.

thanks schefter. or is it mort?

wonderbredd24
04-16-2009, 11:13 AM
Peter King was on the radio in New York and said this deal was not going to happen.

The Browns want more than the Giants are willing to offer.

BaLLiN
04-16-2009, 11:15 AM
thanks schefter. or is it mort?

Peter King was on the radio in New York and said this deal was not going to happen.

The Browns want more than the Giants are willing to offer.

if you know Number 10 he doesnt report false things, he told us Strahan was going to retire after his trip to Africa. He wouldnt report false info

Flippityskip91
04-16-2009, 11:36 AM
if you know Number 10 he doesnt report false things, he told us Strahan was going to retire after his trip to Africa. He wouldnt report false info

I'll just wait and see, not doubting your pal...just want to see it happen before I say anything. If he's right, props to him. If not, well there have already been several reports regarding a possible trade, so there would be no surprise there.

fear the elf
04-16-2009, 12:04 PM
if you know Number 10 he doesnt report false things, he told us Strahan was going to retire after his trip to Africa. He wouldnt report false info

fair enough, i don't know him, and i think that i'm more just bitter because i'm hoping it doesn't happen.

anyways, +rep for hitting up the browns board so much and not being a douche.

BaLLiN
04-16-2009, 12:13 PM
I'll just wait and see, not doubting your pal...just want to see it happen before I say anything. If he's right, props to him. If not, well there have already been several reports regarding a possible trade, so there would be no surprise there.

fair enough, i don't know him, and i think that i'm more just bitter because i'm hoping it doesn't happen.

anyways, +rep for hitting up the browns board so much and not being a douche.

personally i hope hes wrong and its a 1st and a 4th with comp pick next year being 3-5 range because thats what ive been saying lol. But it seems fair, the browns get compensation if braylon does really well and the giants get their #1 in a decently long contract.

This means if you trade down you can still rape the draft and next years too. You have alot of possiblities of what path to go.

osubrowns
04-16-2009, 04:43 PM
If we're serious about getting rid of Edwards we have to do something that is going to get us the best possible player we can get.

1. Trade him for Anquan Boldin

2. Trade him and #5 to move up to land Aaron Curry who is far and away the single best improvement possible for our team.

wonderbredd24
04-16-2009, 05:03 PM
If we're serious about getting rid of Edwards we have to do something that is going to get us the best possible player we can get.

1. Trade him for Anquan Boldin

2. Trade him and #5 to move up to land Aaron Curry who is far and away the single best improvement possible for our team.

1. If they want to deal Edwards, why do it for another wide receiver? Why not just keep him?

2. That would be bonafied insanity. Under no circumstance should they trade up from 5, but the idea that they'd need Edwards to do it is ridiculous.

BaLLiN
04-16-2009, 06:16 PM
trade down!! god!!

honestly all it takes is one or two good drafts

Dark Knight01
04-18-2009, 12:48 PM
1. If they want to deal Edwards, why do it for another wide receiver? Why not just keep him?

2. That would be bonafied insanity. Under no circumstance should they trade up from 5, but the idea that they'd need Edwards to do it is ridiculous.




Exactly! Now some of you Doggs are thinking. Raji and Orakpo should be rated higher on your board than Crabtree, because the Browns need help on defense more than offense with that first pick.....unless they go for Moreno or Wells who they should rate higher than Crabtree because the lack of any good RB's on that roster after Lewis.

Trading a proven WR just to pick a rookie to replace him who is hurt at 5 is stupidity.

kalbears13
04-18-2009, 01:14 PM
Exactly! Now some of you Doggs are thinking. Raji and Orakpo should be rated higher on your board than Crabtree, because the Browns need help on defense more than offense with that first pick.....unless they go for Moreno or Wells who they should rate higher than Crabtree because the lack of any good RB's on that roster after Lewis.

Trading a proven WR just to pick a rookie to replace him who is hurt at 5 is stupidity.

What about the lack of any good WR's on the roster other than Edwards.

Dark Knight01
04-18-2009, 01:26 PM
What about the lack of any good WR's on the roster other than Edwards.



The Browns need defensive help.....BADLY!

WR's can be found in Round 2 or in later rounds to compliment Edwards.
Nicks, Robiskie, Barden, Mossaqoiu, Murphy, Thomas etc....

kalbears13
04-18-2009, 02:49 PM
The Browns need defensive help.....BADLY!

WR's can be found in Round 2 or in later rounds to compliment Edwards.
Nicks, Robiskie, Barden, Mossaqoiu, Murphy, Thomas etc....

We do need help on the defensive side but I was referring to your argument where RB Needs > WR Need.

You were saying that RB was a bigger need by saying Jamal Lewis is the only good RB on the team. I was saying that WR was just as big of a need by saying Braylon Edwards was the only good WR on the team. There are some decent RB's in Rounds 2 and later too. Donald Brown, Andre Brown, Shonn Greene, LeSean McCoy, Rashad Jennings...

The one thing though is that you will have 1-5 WR's on the field at one time. Usually around 2-3. You'll have 1 RB or less on the field 99% of the time.

barry
05-05-2009, 03:16 PM
it's a slow news day browns-wise. a dayton sportswriter covering the bengals thinks that mangini will cut steinbach!

"Steinbach doesn’t fit the mold. He’s more finesse. I look for Steinbach to get released after the 2009 season. If fact, with his fat contract, he’ll be fortunate to make the 53-man roster. Don’t be shocked if he gets terminated before the ‘09 opener."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/chickludwig/entries/2009/05/03/keep_those_cards_letters_comin.html

wonderbredd24
05-05-2009, 03:23 PM
That guy is worse than Tony Grossi

kalbears13
05-05-2009, 05:36 PM
He should be banned from the internet. That was the stupidest homer article I've ever read.

Hurricanes25
05-05-2009, 06:37 PM
The Browns signed Mike Furrey.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/05/05/browns-sign-furrey/

kalbears13
05-06-2009, 02:31 PM
The Browns signed Mike Furrey.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/05/05/browns-sign-furrey/

hmmm... he has the same birthday as i do. He's going to good for us. I can feel it :P.

barry
05-07-2009, 11:16 PM
The Browns signed Mike Furrey.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/05/05/browns-sign-furrey/

if he was a doctor he could be a furrey with the syringe on the top.

(we did the musical "oklahoma" in high school)

thetedginnshow
05-09-2009, 02:04 AM
Anyone know anything on the Braylon front?

wonderbredd24
05-09-2009, 07:53 AM
Anyone know anything on the Braylon front?

There are rumors involving the Jets and Eagles, but I don't either have much substance. It would make a ton of sense for the Jets to want him as they have a weak wide receiver core and a rookie QB, but the rumor regarding Thomas Jones is silly unless the Jets are going to pony up multiple picks with him.

Sadly for the Jets, they are in a bad spot, because the draft is over and there are no difference making wide receivers left in free agency, so the Jets would have to give up a 1st and if it were me as the GM, their 2nd or a package of like a 3rd and 5th. Thomas Jones just does not do enough for the Browns at this point.

The Eagles are also reportedly interested, but they are talking about a deal involving Sheldon Brown, which isn't terrible, but again, we'd need picks.

Ultimately, as I have said all along, I think Braylon will stay in Cleveland for this year.

thetedginnshow
05-09-2009, 12:42 PM
Knowing Mangini and then having seen what your GM does, I highly doubt they could get that much out of the Jets.

wonderbredd24
05-09-2009, 01:07 PM
Knowing Mangini and then having seen what your GM does, I highly doubt they could get that much out of the Jets.

You may be right, which just means Edwards stays here.

But I think you're underestimating our GM. George Kokinis absolutely bent over the Tampa Bay Bucs in that Kellen Winslow trade. A 2nd and a 5th for a guy who is damaged goods and is already on the downside of his career.

It remains to be seen what happens with this Sanchez trade, but historically speaking, teams that give up a ton of players for one end up regretting it.

The Browns landed 2 probable starters in Elam and Coleman, a 23 year old QB with some promise and 2 years experience in the league in Ratliff, and a 2nd round pick in Veikune, whom I think (hope) will surprise people. The kid is brilliant in terms of football IQ.

That doesn't include Alex Mack that should be a dominant center in the league for years to come.

Iamcanadian
05-20-2009, 12:06 AM
You may be right, which just means Edwards stays here.

I cannot believe that Edwards stays after Mangini tried to trade him to practically every team in the NFL. Mangini has made it pretty clear that Edwards doesn't fit anywhere in his plans. I would think Quinn and Anderson cannot be too happy when he traded for another QB and basically said he isn't sold on any of the Cleveland QB's.

But I think you're underestimating our GM. George Kokinis absolutely bent over the Tampa Bay Bucs in that Kellen Winslow trade. A 2nd and a 5th for a guy who is damaged goods and is already on the downside of his career.

Winslow has been in the league 4 years, he obviously passed a physical for Tampa Bay and based on what they signed him for, it is obvious they are expecting a huge season from him and that his health is fine.

It remains to be seen what happens with this Sanchez trade, but historically speaking, teams that give up a ton of players for one end up regretting it.

Yeah, the Giants are already regretting giving up a ton of picks for Eli.

The Browns landed 2 probable starters in Elam and Coleman, a 23 year old QB with some promise and 2 years experience in the league in Ratliff, and a 2nd round pick in Veikune, whom I think (hope) will surprise people. The kid is brilliant in terms of football IQ.

I agree that Elam and Coleman are likely starters but they are very average players IMO and not likely to be impact players. Mangini had a say in drafting Gholston for the Jets so I don't think it is clear that his picks from this draft will turnout better. Veikune may have a good football IQ but he runs a very slow 4.8+ 40, far below the average for LB's in the NFL.

That doesn't include Alex Mack that should be a dominant center in the league for years to come.

The last time we drafted an OC in round 1, it was Faine and that didn't turnout too well for the Browns. There are plenty of NFL Network people who questioned Mack as a 1st rounder and the fact he lasted till pick #21 in what is being called a very weak draft doesn't suggest to me any guarantee he'll be a dominate OC in the NFL.

wonderbredd24
05-20-2009, 08:22 AM
Faine and Mack are completely different types of centers, which makes this a poor comparison.

In fact, the Browns have had good success with getting good, quality centers. The problem has been their ability to play against 3-4 nose tackles.

Jeff Faine was a good center... he was just never built to handle guys like Casey Hampton, which is why he is currently a great center for Tampa who never sees the 3-4 in their division.

Shaun O'Hara was a good center, but had the same problems... the Giants do not play the 3-4 within their division.

Fraley was better in '07 than he was in '08, but he was a pretty good center for the Eagles when they never faced the 3-4 within their division.

Alex Mack, unlike those 3 guys, is built to anchor against 3-4 nose tackles. If he turns out to be the difference between Casey Hampton, Haloti Ngata, and Kelly Gregg collapsing the pocket, Mack is worth the 21st pick and then some.

In fact, the Browns have only had one guy other than Mack who was a good fit against 3-4 nose tackles in LeCharles Bentley and he was felled by a blade of grass

Iamcanadian
05-20-2009, 09:09 AM
Faine and Mack are completely different types of centers, which makes this a poor comparison.

In fact, the Browns have had good success with getting good, quality centers. The problem has been their ability to play against 3-4 nose tackles.

Jeff Faine was a good center... he was just never built to handle guys like Casey Hampton, which is why he is currently a great center for Tampa who never sees the 3-4 in their division.

Shaun O'Hara was a good center, but had the same problems... the Giants do not play the 3-4 within their division.

Fraley was better in '07 than he was in '08, but he was a pretty good center for the Eagles when they never faced the 3-4 within their division.

Alex Mack, unlike those 3 guys, is built to anchor against 3-4 nose tackles. If he turns out to be the difference between Casey Hampton, Haloti Ngata, and Kelly Gregg collapsing the pocket, Mack is worth the 21st pick and then some.

In fact, the Browns have only had one guy other than Mack who was a good fit against 3-4 nose tackles in LeCharles Bentley and he was felled by a blade of grass

My problem with the Mack pick is that solid OC's can be found in rounds 2 and 3, why waste a 1st rounder on one. Wood and Unger are much bigger and tougher OC prospects so why take Mack to play against DNG's in the AFC North and they came at a much cheaper cost. Mack was Mayock's #3 OC prospect with a criticism of ending up on the ground way too often, not the ideal fit if you ask me for an OC who must stand his ground against huge DNG.
IMO, there is never an excuse for drafting an OC in round 1. Not one of the top teams in the NFL has an OC drafted in round 1.

wonderbredd24
05-20-2009, 09:44 AM
My problem with the Mack pick is that solid OC's can be found in rounds 2 and 3, why waste a 1st rounder on one. Wood and Unger are much bigger and tougher OC prospects so why take Mack to play against DNG's in the AFC North and they came at a much cheaper cost. Mack was Mayock's #3 OC prospect with a criticism of ending up on the ground way too often, not the ideal fit if you ask me for an OC who must stand his ground against huge DNG.
IMO, there is never an excuse for drafting an OC in round 1. Not one of the top teams in the NFL has an OC drafted in round 1.

As far as rankings go, everyone has an opinion... by most accounts, Mack was #1. There were only 2 centers I was confident could hold up against our division; Mack and Wood. Both went in round 1 and I personally liked Mack better than Wood.

Consider our division... the AFC North has got to put a higher premium on centers than any other division in football. In fact, it would not surprised me at all if the Bengals traded back into round 1 to get either Mack or Wood, because they have to face Shaun Rogers, Kelly Gregg/Haloti Ngata, and Casey Hampton twice a year each. If you cannot prevent them from collapsing the pocket, you are in a world of hurt.

This is why I was glad the Browns attacked this position the way they did. If Mack is able to do what he should be able to, prevent Hampton and Gregg/Ngata from collapsing the pocket, it gives the Browns an enormous advantage for exploiting the 3 man front. More holes to run through and more linemen to pick up blitzing linebackers... better protection for Quinn, who by the way went down because Hank Fraley was absolutely abused by Marcus Stroud. And just to hammer the point home of how important the center position is in this division, both the Bengals (Jonathan Luigs) and Steelers (AQ Shipley) also drafted centers.

You can argue against taking any position in any round, but if you are confident the guy is a great fit and a great player for your team, why not? As a result, the Browns have Joe Thomas, Eric Steinbech, Alex Mack, Floyd Womack, and Ryan Tucker as their probable starting line... that looks very good and should give us the best line in the division.

Most people would say do not take a guard in round 1 either, but would you hesitate to take Steve Hutchinson with a 1st round pick if you could get him? I wouldn't.

If down the line, Mack is in a couple Pro Bowls and is dominant at his position, will anyone care that we picked him 21st overall? I doubt it.

thetedginnshow
05-21-2009, 12:05 PM
Did you guys hear Cribbs is asking to be traded? That's just terrible. I know a KR isn't a huge deal, but he's awesome. Have any of you watched his show?

Iamcanadian
05-22-2009, 11:00 AM
As far as rankings go, everyone has an opinion... by most accounts, Mack was #1. There were only 2 centers I was confident could hold up against our division; Mack and Wood. Both went in round 1 and I personally liked Mack better than Wood.

Consider our division... the AFC North has got to put a higher premium on centers than any other division in football. In fact, it would not surprised me at all if the Bengals traded back into round 1 to get either Mack or Wood, because they have to face Shaun Rogers, Kelly Gregg/Haloti Ngata, and Casey Hampton twice a year each. If you cannot prevent them from collapsing the pocket, you are in a world of hurt.

This is why I was glad the Browns attacked this position the way they did. If Mack is able to do what he should be able to, prevent Hampton and Gregg/Ngata from collapsing the pocket, it gives the Browns an enormous advantage for exploiting the 3 man front. More holes to run through and more linemen to pick up blitzing linebackers... better protection for Quinn, who by the way went down because Hank Fraley was absolutely abused by Marcus Stroud. And just to hammer the point home of how important the center position is in this division, both the Bengals (Jonathan Luigs) and Steelers (AQ Shipley) also drafted centers.

You can argue against taking any position in any round, but if you are confident the guy is a great fit and a great player for your team, why not? As a result, the Browns have Joe Thomas, Eric Steinbech, Alex Mack, Floyd Womack, and Ryan Tucker as their probable starting line... that looks very good and should give us the best line in the division.

Most people would say do not take a guard in round 1 either, but would you hesitate to take Steve Hutchinson with a 1st round pick if you could get him? I wouldn't.

If down the line, Mack is in a couple Pro Bowls and is dominant at his position, will anyone care that we picked him 21st overall? I doubt it.

We'll just have to see how it plays itself out but I don't like the pick not because Mack doesn't have some talent but because championship teams don't waste a 1st rounder on an OC. The simple fact remains that almost all All Pro OC's came in rounds 2-7. Championship teams know this and take their chances in these rounds, they look for other position to use their #1 pick on.
Sure Cincy and Pittsburgh drafted OC's but they didn't bother using their #1 picks on them.
As for Hutchinson who was considered one of the best OG's to ever enter the draft, he lasted till #17 before he got picked because of the position he played and Mack isn't close to Hutchinson as a prospect. At #21 in this weak draft year, we were scrapping the barrel to find any talent at #21 so predicting future greatness for Mack is a huge stretch if you ask me although there is always the possibility.

wonderbredd24
05-22-2009, 11:16 AM
We'll just have to see how it plays itself out but I don't like the pick not because Mack doesn't have some talent but because championship teams don't waste a 1st rounder on an OC. The simple fact remains that almost all All Pro OC's came in rounds 2-7. Championship teams know this and take their chances in these rounds, they look for other position to use their #1 pick on.
Sure Cincy and Pittsburgh drafted OC's but they didn't bother using their #1 picks on them.
As for Hutchinson who was considered one of the best OG's to ever enter the draft, he lasted till #17 before he got picked because of the position he played and Mack isn't close to Hutchinson as a prospect. At #21 in this weak draft year, we were scrapping the barrel to find any talent at #21 so predicting future greatness for Mack is a huge stretch if you ask me although there is always the possibility.

There was plenty of talent available there... if the Browns had taken Maualuga, Wells, or Oher at 21, no one would have thought twice about it, so that point is just ignorant.

If there were more centers that warranted a 1st round grade, I imagine a championship team would have taken one by now. The Patriots have 3 rings, but did not hesitate to pull the trigger on Logan Mankins. Why? Because they don't care about positions and just felt he was a good player that could work in their system. No different than why we pulled the trigger on Mack.

Iamcanadian
05-23-2009, 12:10 AM
There was plenty of talent available there... if the Browns had taken Maualuga, Wells, or Oher at 21, no one would have thought twice about it, so that point is just ignorant.

If there were more centers that warranted a 1st round grade, I imagine a championship team would have taken one by now. The Patriots have 3 rings, but did not hesitate to pull the trigger on Logan Mankins. Why? Because they don't care about positions and just felt he was a good player that could work in their system. No different than why we pulled the trigger on Mack.


According to NFL Network staff, this was a rotten draft year which made trading out of #5 a realistic proposition. Just because some big names weren't the prospects people thought they were doesn't mean that Mack was a solid pick. At 21, in this draft year, you are looking at basically 2nd round talent no matter how well known their names were.
Look, Mack was OK at 21 but that doesn't mean the scouts and GM's thought he had Pro Bowl potential, it just means in a draft where every team was struggling to find value with their 1st pick, Mack was probably the best they could do at #21. It's when you assume that he will be an All Pro OC that I question your judgment. It is more of a maybe than any sure thing.
The Patriots took Mankins #32 in round 1, a position where taking an OG is not out of the question.
You make some good arguments but you just haven't convinced me we got enough for the #5 pick in the draft, nor that Mangini is a good drafter or a good trader. IMO, if Sanchez goes on to be a franchise QB, we will all look back on this trade as a disaster and you haven't convinced me otherwise. I guess we will have to let the cards play out the answer on the playing field because neither you or I will make one bit of difference by our opinions. In the end, it is always decided by playing the games not by thoughts or ideas.

JSimmsy21
05-23-2009, 02:52 PM
According to NFL Network staff, this was a rotten draft year which made trading out of #5 a realistic proposition. Just because some big names weren't the prospects people thought they were doesn't mean that Mack was a solid pick. At 21, in this draft year, you are looking at basically 2nd round talent no matter how well known their names were.
Look, Mack was OK at 21 but that doesn't mean the scouts and GM's thought he had Pro Bowl potential, it just means in a draft where every team was struggling to find value with their 1st pick, Mack was probably the best they could do at #21. It's when you assume that he will be an All Pro OC that I question your judgment. It is more of a maybe than any sure thing.
The Patriots took Mankins #32 in round 1, a position where taking an OG is not out of the question.
You make some good arguments but you just haven't convinced me we got enough for the #5 pick in the draft, nor that Mangini is a good drafter or a good trader. IMO, if Sanchez goes on to be a franchise QB, we will all look back on this trade as a disaster and you haven't convinced me otherwise. I guess we will have to let the cards play out the answer on the playing field because neither you or I will make one bit of difference by our opinions. In the end, it is always decided by playing the games not by thoughts or ideas.

While this was an overall weak draft class for top talent, the talent in late round 1 through round 3 was well documented. I think we did the right thing in trading down by taking less. Teams didn't want to trade up for the talent that was there, so we had to accept less in return. Just like Baltimore did last year with Jacksonville.

Alex Mack is the real deal. He is a very smart, tough, strong center that is known for being a technician. The same things were said about Joe Thomas, so I'm a little optimistic about him.

I don't think you should base whether this was a good trade or not on how well Sanchez does.
I think if Mack and Brady turn out the way we hope, then we made the best choice, regardless of Sanchez. (but we did it for less money)
If Sanchez, Mack, and Quinn all flop, then we all lost.(but we did it for less money)
If Sanchez becomes worth the #5 pick and Mack and Quinn flop, then we lost. (and we'll probably be looking for another HC/GM)

Iamcanadian
05-24-2009, 12:51 PM
While this was an overall weak draft class for top talent, the talent in late round 1 through round 3 was well documented. I think we did the right thing in trading down by taking less. Teams didn't want to trade up for the talent that was there, so we had to accept less in return. Just like Baltimore did last year with Jacksonville.

Actually, the Jets, Minny, San Fran, and a few others, were all anxious to secure Sanchez and all were willing to trade up to get him. There is no doubt in my mind that the Jets were willing to pay the going rate. It was Mangini who wanted a few average veterans instead of picks from the Jets. He could have sought picks as well probably another 1st and a 2nd in next year's draft which carried the value of another 2nd and 3rd rounder. After all, the Jets were pretty desperate for a QB as were a # of teams.
If by well documented, you are suggesting that this area of the draft was decent, you are way off the mark. This was a weak draft from top to bottom, maybe the worst in 20 years. The middle of round 2, teams were drafting round 3 talent and ditto for round 3 where teams were drafting round 4 talent by the middle of that round.

Alex Mack is the real deal. He is a very smart, tough, strong center that is known for being a technician. The same things were said about Joe Thomas, so I'm a little optimistic about him.

Mack was probably the best at the time we picked but he is a borderline 1st rounder in this weak draft and doesn't come close to being the prospect Joe Thomas was. However, 2nd round OC's can turnout to be solid contributors but certainly aren't guaranteed to be future All Pros.

Baltimore paid 60 points less to Houston to move up to get Flacco, hardly an earth shattering amount to move up 8 sports in the middle of the draft.

I don't think you should base whether this was a good trade or not on how well Sanchez does.

I think you do. At #5 in the draft, you are looking at a potential impact player not a 2nd round possibility. If Sanchez turns out to be am impact player, this trade could be pretty embarrassing IMO.

I think if Mack and Brady turn out the way we hope, then we made the best choice, regardless of Sanchez. (but we did it for less money)

Is the money in your pockets or mine. Really, who cares about the money except the owner.

If Sanchez, Mack, and Quinn all flop, then we all lost.(but we did it for less money)

Again, the money. football teams are great if they find impact players, money won't get you a championship.

If Sanchez becomes worth the #5 pick and Mack and Quinn flop, then we lost. (and we'll probably be looking for another HC/GM)

I don't know how Quinn got in this debate since we are talking about Sanchez vs Mack. Even if both are very successful, do you really think an OC is worth a successful QB or close to equal value???

Personally, I think a HC should never have last say on trades or draft picks, it is a recipe for disaster as Butch Davis era proved. I think an inexperienced Mangini got taken badly on draft day and really didn't have the experience to pull off a solid trade which caused us to get ripped off badly considering that we ended up some 16 picks further down the draft board for a measly 2nd rounder. When San Diego traded with the Giants and were in a tough position with Eli saying he wouldn't even play for them, they still got a hell of a deal just moving back a few spots but remaining in the top 5, a lot more picks that we got for moving back 16 spots. You really think we can become a championship team with Jet's castoffs???
I need to step back and relax. I shouldn't be taking out my frustrations on Cleveland fans who really had no part in the decisions that have taken place including the firing of Savage and Crennel. I'm sorry to tee off on any Cleveland fans except maybe those who thought everything would be solved by firing these guys but never looked at the consequences of allowing Lerrner another opportunity to make matters worse.

kalbears13
05-24-2009, 02:17 PM
I haven't had time to write anything about my complete opinions about much in a while so on an empty Sunday afternoon in the dorms, I think this is a good time, even though it's a little late.

Firing of Crennel and Savage

After the hopeful 2007 season they ended up using a lot of their draft picks to trade for big-name free agents. The 2008 season was looking good. A shaky start and then a horrible finish. Notorious Browns injuries pop up and the team looks tremendously weak. The offense was disgusting and the defense couldn't hold their own.

Savage and Crennel were at little risk after the 2007 season to get fired. They didn't need to rush to do anything. There was no rush to become a Super Bowl contender. They put a lot into free agency hoping to be a contender which should have been put into the draft and worked on building for the long run instead of just the 2008 season.

It's impossible to blame the coaches for the injuries but you can blame the coaches on the moral during the second half of the season. The team was down and out, yet they played like they didn't belong on the field. In 2008 when the Cleveland Indians had all that hype coming in and underperformed, lost key players to injury and free agency, the coaches made sure they didn't give up and they ended up at .500. All the Browns players seemed unmovitaved and it should have been the coaches job to encourage them but Crennel isn't that kind of guy and the whole team looked in disarray.

At the end of the 2008 season there was nothing to be optimistic about. It seemed like the players were unhappy and didn't want to be there with the coaching that they had. When you're a player on offense or defense and you can't score, it really questions your judgement of your coaching staff for a long time. I don't think Crennel and Savage are bad at what they do but I don't think they were ready to handle the losing. Also with Savage's controversy with the fan email and with Crennel/Savage arguing with each other there needed to be (I hate to say this) "Change".

Hiring of Mangini and Kokinis

I really don't agree with the way Lerner went about hiring them but they seem to be...
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o292/kaddyescalade/russellbrand.jpg
...getting along pretty well. But Mangini alone, the way Lerner went about hiring him aside, I was happy about and thought he was a good coach. Which brings us to...

The Draft/ Offseason

When Mangini started bringing in Jets free agents it made me unhappy. You were fired for a reason. It made it seem like he couldn't evaluate talent on the 31 other teams. On the other hand these people know the system and bring depth to help the ones that haven't been in his system.

I was okay with the Winslow trade because he has 50 year old knees on a 20 something year old body.

I really liked Alex Mack as a prospect during his junior season. He's a mauler and since I don't have anyones full college tapes I can only go off of scouting reports and the few videos on youtube. I believe that just adding a player like Alex Mack makes the whole O-Line way better because then they can kick off the weakest link. The trade seemed to be in desperation for picks and Mangini was willing to take anything somewhat reasonable and he did (and he got three more Jets too...). Receivers were a need and they were addressed. I didn't see the need for 2 in the 2nd though. Veikune was a questionable pick and didn't really like the highlight films. He seemed to be leaving his feet a lot but that can also be seen as a good thing. I really liked Cleveland's second day and by the end of the weekend thought that they addressed pretty much everything they could have. I'm also glad that Brady and Braylon weren't traded but a little disappointed that DA wasn't traded but that's probably because no one values him right now.

So now I'm partially caught up...

Iamcanadian
05-25-2009, 01:02 AM
I haven't had time to write anything about my complete opinions about much in a while so on an empty Sunday afternoon in the dorms, I think this is a good time, even though it's a little late.

Firing of Crennel and Savage

After the hopeful 2007 season they ended up using a lot of their draft picks to trade for big-name free agents. The 2008 season was looking good. A shaky start and then a horrible finish. Notorious Browns injuries pop up and the team looks tremendously weak. The offense was disgusting and the defense couldn't hold their own.

Your rationale is solid but I notice you didn't make mention of the fact that Cleveland drew the toughest schedule in the NFL bar none. Even then, the shaky start had a lot to do with Edwards leading the NFL in dropped passes, it totally undermined the offense and left it in a shambles. So it is little wonder the young team imploded and finished the season looking disgusting especially when we were down to our 3rd string QB. Tough schedules and 3rd string QB just don't go hand in hand.

Savage and Crennel were at little risk after the 2007 season to get fired. They didn't need to rush to do anything. There was no rush to become a Super Bowl contender. They put a lot into free agency hoping to be a contender which should have been put into the draft and worked on building for the long run instead of just the 2008 season.

Here I have to disagree a bit. The hype about the Browns without any consideration about their schedule was immense. There was considerable pressure on them by the media and their fans to produce especially when you have an owner who has never accomplished anything since he owned the team. Crennel isn't a young guy, he's was near the end either way, so he likely wanted to make a push now rather than wait.
The correct way to build a team IMO, is to build through the draft until there are enough pieces in place to be a serious contender, Cleveland was getting close so I wasn't shocked to see Savage take the plunge even if he knew it might be this coming season before the schedule gave the Brown's their first real shot. FA's often need a year to settle in and reach expectations.


It's impossible to blame the coaches for the injuries but you can blame the coaches on the moral during the second half of the season. The team was down and out, yet they played like they didn't belong on the field. In 2008 when the Cleveland Indians had all that hype coming in and underperformed, lost key players to injury and free agency, the coaches made sure they didn't give up and they ended up at .500. All the Browns players seemed unmovitaved and it should have been the coaches job to encourage them but Crennel isn't that kind of guy and the whole team looked in disarray.

Baseball schedules aren't set up like the NFL's to make sure 6-8 new teams make the playoffs every year. The Indian's schedule is pretty well fixed so dropping back to .500 isn't that great. The Browns on the other hand drew a rotten schedule, one that was designed to keep them out of contention, that's how the NFL creates a false sense of parity. The team actually played quite well till Dorsey became the starter, then the disarray became a lot more obvious.

At the end of the 2008 season there was nothing to be optimistic about. It seemed like the players were unhappy and didn't want to be there with the coaching that they had. When you're a player on offense or defense and you can't score, it really questions your judgement of your coaching staff for a long time. I don't think Crennel and Savage are bad at what they do but I don't think they were ready to handle the losing. Also with Savage's controversy with the fan email and with Crennel/Savage arguing with each other there needed to be (I hate to say this) "Change".

Losing team's dressing rooms in every sport is on edge when the team isn't performing. That's nothing new or different especially with a 53 man roster. Everybody is at each others throats, it's like that on every losing team. What can the coaching staff do when its star WR is dropping balls in every key situation, it is simply going to make it difficult to score.
I think a case if Savage agreed, could be made for replacing an aging HC like Crennel and bringing in a young HC maybe to finish the job of taking Cleveland to the next level.
It is just my opinion that a weak owner panicked and gave in to fan pressure rather than stay the course and finish what was close to reaching its goals. Fans just don't realize that when you dump you FO including your HC, that the new guys are likely top come in with the attitude of starting over with their own people and a rebuilding process can start all over again.
Change HC's, sure, it was doable but a complete makeover, I'll be shocked if it works.

Hiring of Mangini and Kokinis

I really don't agree with the way Lerner went about hiring them but they seem to be...
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o292/kaddyescalade/russellbrand.jpg
...getting along pretty well. But Mangini alone, the way Lerner went about hiring him aside, I was happy about and thought he was a good coach. Which brings us to...

If he was just the HC, I might have gone along with the hire but he was given far more reaching authority and I cannot fathom how it was justified. Mangini also has final say in the draft, trades and roster personnel. This is a recipe for disaster IMO because Mangini is just way over his head with that kind of authority.

The Draft/ Offseason

When Mangini started bringing in Jets free agents it made me unhappy. You were fired for a reason. It made it seem like he couldn't evaluate talent on the 31 other teams. On the other hand these people know the system and bring depth to help the ones that haven't been in his system.

His system is BB's system and I believe Crennel used the same system so how much of a learning curve did his returning players need. I think you were right on, he just felt more comfortable with a few of his people around him. I mean the Jets drafted Gholston so maybe Mangini isn't the great talent evaluator after all and look at the picks he might have gotten instead of a few of the Jets castoffs.

I was okay with the Winslow trade because he has 50 year old knees on a 20 something year old body.

Tampa Bay's doctors didn't think so and they are certainly willing to pay him a ton of money to prove their point??? Just a thought!

I really liked Alex Mack as a prospect during his junior season. He's a mauler and since I don't have anyones full college tapes I can only go off of scouting reports and the few videos on youtube. I believe that just adding a player like Alex Mack makes the whole O-Line way better because then they can kick off the weakest link. The trade seemed to be in desperation for picks and Mangini was willing to take anything somewhat reasonable and he did (and he got three more Jets too...). Receivers were a need and they were addressed. I didn't see the need for 2 in the 2nd though. Veikune was a questionable pick and didn't really like the highlight films. He seemed to be leaving his feet a lot but that can also be seen as a good thing. I really liked Cleveland's second day and by the end of the weekend thought that they addressed pretty much everything they could have. I'm also glad that Brady and Braylon weren't traded but a little disappointed that DA wasn't traded but that's probably because no one values him right now.

People assume that the Jets weren't desperate as well considering how many teams wanted Sanchez. I think they were quite prepared to pay the going rate but Mangini inexperience made him settle for a rotten trade.

So now I'm partially caught up...

Decent observations, just thought I'd add a few of my own.

Matthew Jones
05-25-2009, 06:02 PM
I don't know whether or not this has been mentioned yet but apparently in training camp Eric Mangini has been playing Rex Hadnot at left guard. Eric Steinbach (he of the $49.5 million deal) is apparently the backup thus far. I know Mangini is an idiot, but is he serious about this, or is there something I don't know? Steinbach looked only okay last year after a great year in 2007 (from what I saw), but you don't pay a lineman (ESPECIALLY a guard) almost $50 million and throw them on the bench after one season. Maybe they're trying to trade him? Motivate him? Figured someone on here could answer.

wonderbredd24
05-25-2009, 06:42 PM
According to multiple sources, guys are getting reps... there really isn't a first team or second team... guys are just getting reps thus far. Afterall, this is mini camp.

Supposedly, Mangini does likes bigger guards and linemen in general, but Steinbach's mediocre year was due to injuries. I will be very surprised if Steinbach does not start this year and if he didn't start, I expect they'd trade or cut Steinbach.

keylime_5
05-26-2009, 10:48 AM
that report about Hadnot and Steinbach is very misleading. Steinbach will start, it was a minicamp and guys will get mixed around to get reps. Guys who were rehabbing injuries didn't do much, guys who worked hard in the offseason got rewarded, guys like Shaun Smith who the staff is trying to straighten out and put a chip on his shoulder were held back. If it's a week worth of training camp first team reps wake me up then.

keylime_5
05-26-2009, 10:51 AM
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/05/cleveland_browns_expected_to_s.html

Browns sign CB Roderick Hood apparently. All the sudden we're really crowded at cornerback. Eric wright, Brandon McDonald, Roderick Hood, Corey Ivy, Hank Poteat, Don Carey, and Coye Francies make 7 guys to fill 6 spots.

wonderbredd24
05-26-2009, 11:05 AM
Rod Hood should have no problem dominating Derek Anderson in practice. Anderson made him look like Rod Woodson in '07.

As far as the position battle goes... the 6th round guys need to show the team something, but if they do, I'd dump Poteat, but that's me.

Brown Leader
05-26-2009, 12:37 PM
Hood has real issues in coverage at times but I like the physical style he plays with. He's good for at least one smackdown a game. Of all the guys we've added this is the first who could actually take a spot away from Wright or McDonald; barring an incredible rookie season from Carey/Francies. He might be more valuable to the Browns in a reserve S spot. Good sign.

keylime_5
05-26-2009, 01:30 PM
I think it will take some real disappointment to dump a guy like Carey or Francies in favor of a veteran who is mediocre on his best day like Poteat or Ivy. If anything they'll keep the two 6th round rookies and keep 6 CBs (Wright, McDonald, Hood, Ivy, Poteat, Francies), and move Carey to count as a safety on the roster over Sorensen. Decent depth now with Adams and Hood/McDonald as the dime and nickelbacks respectively. That's a lot better than having Ralph Brown or Terry Cousin on the field half the game.

Iamcanadian
05-26-2009, 10:08 PM
I think it will take some real disappointment to dump a guy like Carey or Francies in favor of a veteran who is mediocre on his best day like Poteat or Ivy. If anything they'll keep the two 6th round rookies and keep 6 CBs (Wright, McDonald, Hood, Ivy, Poteat, Francies), and move Carey to count as a safety on the roster over Sorensen. Decent depth now with Adams and Hood/McDonald as the dime and nickelbacks respectively. That's a lot better than having Ralph Brown or Terry Cousin on the field half the game.

Actually in the NFL today, teams want to keep every rookie they can because of salary cap limitations, for every rookie who makes the roster, there is more money to spend on veterans. Any rookie who comes even close to a veteran is sure to stay while the veteran leaves, it really doesn't matter if the veteran is the better player especially if the starter gets injured, the salary cap era has changed they way teams make their decisions on rookies.
If a rookie gets cut in the NFL, generally he really stinks because teams hate cutting them.

The Dynasty
06-04-2009, 12:23 AM
I was wondering when the Cleveland Browns single game tickets go on sale usually? I am hoping to go to the Week one game in Cleveland when the Vikings come so I am just wondering when they usually go on sale. So any help with be appreciated.

j05son
06-05-2009, 12:29 AM
I was wondering when the Cleveland Browns single game tickets go on sale usually? I am hoping to go to the Week one game in Cleveland when the Vikings come so I am just wondering when they usually go on sale. So any help with be appreciated.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/tickets/single.php

I don't know if it really answers the question but it gives some phone numbers and an email address to the Cleveland Browns Ticket Office. They would surely know. ^_-

keylime_5
06-05-2009, 09:39 PM
Browns sign FA OT George Foster (who was released by Detroit after they signed Jon Jansen). Good veteran depth who can play RG or RT, and is a great fit as a huge mauling run blocker that Mangini apparently likes for his linemen. Between Tucker, Womack, St.Clair, Foster, and Hadnot we won't be short of veterans with starting experience on the right side of the line.

Also...this guy was a big reason why Detroit didn't draft Joe Thomas a couple years ago after they trade for him from Denver. Thank you Matt Millen.

Iamcanadian
06-05-2009, 10:45 PM
Browns sign FA OT George Foster (who was released by Detroit after they signed Jon Jansen). Good veteran depth who can play RG or RT, and is a great fit as a huge mauling run blocker that Mangini apparently likes for his linemen. Between Tucker, Womack, St.Clair, Foster, and Hadnot we won't be short of veterans with starting experience on the right side of the line.

Also...this guy was a big reason why Detroit didn't draft Joe Thomas a couple years ago after they trade for him from Denver. Thank you Matt Millen.

Sorry to inform you that George Foster was a complete flop in Detroit. He is a below average player who draws a lot of penalties in crucial situations. He is nothing but below average backup material.
The right side of our OL looks pretty mediocre to me even if they are all vets. Not one of them is worth writing home about.

barry
06-05-2009, 11:43 PM
should the browns try to sign greg ellis?

j05son
06-06-2009, 04:11 AM
Sorry to inform you that George Foster was a complete flop in Detroit. He is a below average player who draws a lot of penalties in crucial situations. He is nothing but below average backup material.
The right side of our OL looks pretty mediocre to me even if they are all vets. Not one of them is worth writing home about.

Ryan Tucker says hi.

Now here comes IAC trash talking Ryan Tucker and everyone else like he always does. Let's talk about how bad the Browns are, or ever decision they've ever made, or who they have playing. Let's second guess every single thing and throw pessimistic worthless opinions out and call everyone out on it.

Iamcanadian
06-06-2009, 08:22 AM
Ryan Tucker says hi.

Now here comes IAC trash talking Ryan Tucker and everyone else like he always does. Let's talk about how bad the Browns are, or ever decision they've ever made, or who they have playing. Let's second guess every single thing and throw pessimistic worthless opinions out and call everyone out on it.

Well, we won't have a clue on the Browns until they play this season now will we, so I guess your opinions are as worthless as mine at this point. You want to be optimistic about the Browns that's your opinion and what do you have to backup your reasoning = zero, so don't come criticizing my reasoning until they actually play. Right now all we have to go on is opinion based on very little. Their play on the field will decide whose opinion was correct and if I was wrong I'll eat humble pie, I wonder if you will do the same.
Oh yeah, our team record since Lerner bought the team is abysmal but I guess that passed over your head and that isn't opinion but fact.

keylime_5
06-06-2009, 10:21 AM
Foster was an abysmal fit in Detroit's offense. At least here he'll be at home in the system. Plus as a backup, likely 3rd string (the 8th or 9th lineman to make the team if he does make it) he won't have the pressure to live up to a contract or as a starter. Adds competition and more veteran RG/RT depth which is not a bad thing at all. Upgrade over Sowells at very worst. And speaking of the right side, if he's healthy Tucker is definitely one of our best linemen. And you don't have to have really good players on the right side to have a really good line if your LT-LG-C reads Thomas-Steinbach-Mack. Our line was really good in 2007 and it was rookie Thomas at LT, Steinbach, Fraley, Tucker, and Shaffer with not that much depth at all.

keylime_5
06-06-2009, 10:23 AM
should the browns try to sign greg ellis?

I wish they would, but they won't because a)Ellis wants to play for a 4-3 team, b)Ellis probably wants to play for a team he views as a contender, and c)the staff is probably feeling like they want to go into the year with Bowens, Wimbley, Hall, and Veinuke at OLB to see what they have in those young guys as to not stunt their development.

Iamcanadian
06-08-2009, 10:22 AM
Foster was an abysmal fit in Detroit's offense. At least here he'll be at home in the system. Plus as a backup, likely 3rd string (the 8th or 9th lineman to make the team if he does make it) he won't have the pressure to live up to a contract or as a starter. Adds competition and more veteran RG/RT depth which is not a bad thing at all. Upgrade over Sowells at very worst. And speaking of the right side, if he's healthy Tucker is definitely one of our best linemen. And you don't have to have really good players on the right side to have a really good line if your LT-LG-C reads Thomas-Steinbach-Mack. Our line was really good in 2007 and it was rookie Thomas at LT, Steinbach, Fraley, Tucker, and Shaffer with not that much depth at all.


No problem with left side or with OC although rookie OLmen can struggle for awhile. Right side is a different story and if Foster even makes the team, he will be no worse than 2nd string.
Teams need talent to pass block on their left side but usually run to their right side, so the right side must be solid run blockers if you want the running game to work. Tucker is injury prone and Foster could end up starting there and he is mediocre at best and a liability when it comes to penalties. Detroit switched to a very similar offense last year with a run first mentality, so Foster was in a perfect system for him last season and the results weren't positive. He's an average backup but better than a rookie if he makes the team.
Basically our OL should be solid as long as the injuries are at a minimum, it is the skill positions on offense where we may struggle, QB, WR and RB. If these positions produce, our offense will be effective but there are a lot of question marks at these position that need to be answered before we know whether the offense will be solid. Anytime you have to ask 'who is our starting QB', you have to wonder just how good an offense you are going to have???

wonderbredd24
06-10-2009, 11:27 AM
I am holding absolutely no hope out for George Foster being good here.

He's 28 and from what I've read, has no idea how to play his position. He has the size and strength to dominate, but his technique is just horrendous.

He struggles at holding his ground against a bull rush... that's frankly embarrassing for a man his size.

I'll be surprised if he's not cut before the end of camp.

jriles0522
06-10-2009, 05:02 PM
http://www.whatifsports.com/beyondtheboxscore/default.asp?article=2009NFLANORTH

Certainly hope these guys are way off.

I didn't think we were going to be THAT bad.

Then again, we really don't have anyone worth a **** on our team.

We really Fd up not taking Maualuga and a RB.

I'll take Mack, Maualuga, McCoy, Robiskie. I think, but hope I'm wrong, that Veikune and Massaquoi are just total whiffs.

barry
06-10-2009, 06:16 PM
I wish they would, but they won't because a)Ellis wants to play for a 4-3 team, b)Ellis probably wants to play for a team he views as a contender, and c)the staff is probably feeling like they want to go into the year with Bowens, Wimbley, Hall, and Veinuke at OLB to see what they have in those young guys as to not stunt their development.

the few things i've seen suggest that veinuke might see time at ILB. this came as a surprise initially, but it seems that barton was signed as much for his abilities to QB a defense as mangini's defensive scheme calls for the ILB's to do this, and as such, barton's greatest impact could be as a mentor to jackson in this role (and we better extend jackson's contract ASAP). once d'qwell proves he can handle the responsibility, barton could go to the bench - at the very least on situational downs, where veinuke could come in and switch in and out of a 4-3 look lining up on the line as an edge rusher but with the options of rushing or dropping off into coverage - or even blitzing from an ILB position.

if he's used intelligently, i think we'll be quite pleased with what veikune brings to the table. the scheme is as important as the skill set.

kalbears13
06-11-2009, 12:48 PM
http://www.whatifsports.com/beyondtheboxscore/default.asp?article=2009NFLANORTH

Certainly hope these guys are way off.

I didn't think we were going to be THAT bad.

Then again, we really don't have anyone worth a **** on our team.

We really Fd up not taking Maualuga and a RB.

I'll take Mack, Maualuga, McCoy, Robiskie. I think, but hope I'm wrong, that Veikune and Massaquoi are just total whiffs.

And we rush for 1800 yards? If we're losing that much I doubt we get that many rushing yards...

Just one of the many things that don't make sense on that website.

Iamcanadian
06-13-2009, 02:09 AM
the few things i've seen suggest that veinuke might see time at ILB. this came as a surprise initially, but it seems that barton was signed as much for his abilities to QB a defense as mangini's defensive scheme calls for the ILB's to do this, and as such, barton's greatest impact could be as a mentor to jackson in this role (and we better extend jackson's contract ASAP). once d'qwell proves he can handle the responsibility, barton could go to the bench - at the very least on situational downs, where veinuke could come in and switch in and out of a 4-3 look lining up on the line as an edge rusher but with the options of rushing or dropping off into coverage - or even blitzing from an ILB position.

if he's used intelligently, i think we'll be quite pleased with what veikune brings to the table. the scheme is as important as the skill set.

Veinuke ran somewhere in the 4.8's at the combine which makes him one of the slowest LB's in the whole NFL. He can only play ILB in a 3-4 where speed isn't a top priority because with 4 LB's in a 3-4, they only have to cover a quarter of the field rather than a third like a 4-3 team asks them to do.
Cleveland is hoping Veinuke can be a tackling machine on the inside because he lacks the speed to do anything else. Rushing the passer is likely to be a skill he possesses, even dropping into coverage won't be a strong point.

wonderbredd24
06-13-2009, 01:18 PM
Veikune's 40 was slow, but his cone drills and other things were actually very good.

He has the burst to be a pass rusher, plus he has a great motor, and a ton of strength. Should be interesting to see what kind of bull rush he can bring.

And when I went back and watched him in the Senior Bowl practices, he fared pretty well against future division opponent Michael Oher.

keylime_5
06-13-2009, 09:22 PM
4.8 on that slow ass track in Indy for a 6'2"/257 stoutly built guy like that who is a power guy and not a speed rusher is fine. He compares favorably to Tedy Bruschi who ran in the 4.8 - 5.0 second range in his forty.

j05son
06-13-2009, 09:33 PM
David Veikune's official numbers...

Combine Results:
40 Yard Dash : 4.87 seconds
Bench Press : 35.0 reps
Vertical Jump : 33.0 inches
Broad Jump : 110.0 inches
3 Cone Drill : 7.2 seconds
20 Yard Shuttle : 4.46 seconds
Wonderlic: 28

Hawaii Pro-Day:
40 yard dast: 4.75
10 yard split: 1.59
20 yard split: 2.76

I couldn't find all of the pro day numbers.

Iamcanadian
06-13-2009, 11:29 PM
Well let's hope he is the tackling machine we need badly in the middle.

RoyHall#1
06-14-2009, 09:28 AM
Is a 28 good on the Wonderlic? I can't remember.

keylime_5
06-14-2009, 10:13 AM
yeah, that's really good.

j05son
06-14-2009, 11:27 AM
Is a 28 good on the Wonderlic? I can't remember.

Yeah, it's real good. The average for an NFL linebacker is 19.

Here's some breakdowns of some past LB's I've found...I have to use Veikune's pro-day as I can't find his combine splits (I didn't look entirely hard though)

David Veikune
40 yard dash: 4.75
10 yard split: 1.59
20 yard split: 2.76
Bench Press : 35
Wonderlic: 28

Patrick Willis
40 yard dash: 4.51
10 yard split: 1.53
20 yard split: 2.62
Bench Press : 22
Wonderlic: 12

Aaron Curry
40 yard dash: 4.52
10 yard split: 1.50
20 yard split: 2.58
Bench Press : 25
Wonderlic: 26

Jerod Mayo
40 yard dash: 4.56
10 yard split: 1.52
20 yard split: 2.57
Bench Press : 22
Wonderlic: --

A.J. Hawk -- Ohio State Pro Day #'s [OSU has a fast track]
40 yard dash: 4.47
10 yard split: 1.56
20 yard split: 2.72
Bench Press : 24
Wonderlic: --

DeMarcus Ware
40 yard dash: 4.56
10 yard split: 1.62
20 yard split: 2.70
Bench Press : 27
Wonderlic: 20

Lofa Tatupu
40 yard dash: 4.83
Bench Press : 23
Wonderlic: 29

D'Qwell Jackson
40 yard dash: 4.71
10 yard split: 1.65
20 yard split: 2.74
Bench Press : 19
Wonderlic: 28

I tried finding Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher and others but it's a lot easier to find recent guys...

JSimmsy21
06-15-2009, 07:06 AM
Detroit switched to a very similar offense last year with a run first mentality, so Foster was in a perfect system for him last season and the results weren't positive.

I thought they switched to a ZBS last year? That wouldn't be a similar system.

Veinuke ran somewhere in the 4.8's at the combine which makes him one of the slowest LB's in the whole NFL. He can only play ILB in a 3-4 where speed isn't a top priority because with 4 LB's in a 3-4, they only have to cover a quarter of the field rather than a third like a 4-3 team asks them to do.
Cleveland is hoping Veinuke can be a tackling machine on the inside because he lacks the speed to do anything else. Rushing the passer is likely to be a skill he possesses, even dropping into coverage won't be a strong point.

That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard about football. Terrell Suggs ran a 4.8. Gholston and Orakpo ran between a 4.6 and a 4.7. If a LB is running 40 yards, then that means 10 other people screwed up too. The 10 and 20 yards splits are more important. And these times don't even take into account how fast a player diagnoses a play, which is really the most important part.

Is a 28 good on the Wonderlic? I can't remember.

Didn't Vince Young get a 3 or 5 or something like that?

j05son
06-15-2009, 08:49 AM
I thought they switched to a ZBS last year? That wouldn't be a similar system.



That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard about football. Terrell Suggs ran a 4.8. Gholston and Orakpo ran between a 4.6 and a 4.7. If a LB is running 40 yards, then that means 10 other people screwed up too. The 10 and 20 yards splits are more important. And these times don't even take into account how fast a player diagnoses a play, which is really the most important part.



Didn't Vince Young get a 3 or 5 or something like that?

I don't know what Detroit did.

I agree, the 40 time isn't as important as people think it is.

VY got a 6. LOL. Apparently he retook it and scored a 16 but the average for NFL QB's is 24. Like anything else though, I don't know how important it is, Dan Marino scored a 16 and Alex Smith scored a 40. I thought it was funny that Javon Walker outdid VY's 6 and he has a learning disability. At lease we all know why VY sounds like an idiot in all of his press conferences.

Source: USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/draft/2006-03-01-young-wonderlic_x.htm)

keylime_5
06-16-2009, 11:03 AM
I thought they switched to a ZBS last year? That wouldn't be a similar system.

indeed

http://blog.mlive.com/highlightreel/2008/04/detroit_lions_offensive_line_t.html

Iamcanadian
06-17-2009, 01:54 AM
I thought they switched to a ZBS last year? That wouldn't be a similar system.

No, they simply used a run first scheme, they never switched to a ZBS.



That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard about football. Terrell Suggs ran a 4.8. Gholston and Orakpo ran between a 4.6 and a 4.7. If a LB is running 40 yards, then that means 10 other people screwed up too. The 10 and 20 yards splits are more important. And these times don't even take into account how fast a player diagnoses a play, which is really the most important part.


Didn't Vince Young get a 3 or 5 or something like that?

LB"S are often called upon to cover a RB out of the backfield and when you run a 4.89 at the combine, it isn't likely that you'll be able to stay with a RB. Indeed a LB may be asked to run 40 or more yards on occasion.
He should be solid with the play in front of him but he is going to be a liability when asked to cover a RB. Remember Suggs was a very high pick in the draft because he exhibited a talent level far above Veinuke's. Veinuke was a 2nd round pick in what is considered a very weak draft, maybe one of the weakest in a long time. He is a limited player. If he turns out to be a tackling machine, great, but he is no sure thing to ever be a starter as a Brown especially when you consider that you can count on one hand the # of LB's as slow as him.

wonderbredd24
06-17-2009, 10:22 AM
Your constant crap about a weak draft is unfounded and increasingly stupid.

It lacked elite talent at the top, but there was a wide concensus that there was quality to be had throughout.

And if the kid knows how to rush the passer, he won't be asked to do much coverage. And if he's in at ILB, it will not be on passing downs. That's just stupid. They have Jackson and now Maiava for that

And you are putting way too much emphasis on the 40, which also makes you look extremely foolish. His burst and change of direction speed is more than satisfactory.

j05son
06-18-2009, 12:46 AM
Your constant crap about a weak draft is unfounded and increasingly stupid.

It lacked elite talent at the top, but there was a wide concensus that there was quality to be had throughout.

And if the kid knows how to rush the passer, he won't be asked to do much coverage. And if he's in at ILB, it will not be on passing downs. That's just stupid. They have Jackson and now Maiava for that

And you are putting way too much emphasis on the 40, which also makes you look extremely foolish. His burst and change of direction speed is more than satisfactory.

This.

Come on now IAC. First time someone calls you a horse you punch them in the nose. The second time someone calls you a horse you call them a jerk. The third time someone calls your a horse, maybe it's time to go shopping for a saddle.

Iamcanadian
06-18-2009, 01:23 AM
Your constant crap about a weak draft is unfounded and increasingly stupid.

It lacked elite talent at the top, but there was a wide concensus that there was quality to be had throughout.

And if the kid knows how to rush the passer, he won't be asked to do much coverage. And if he's in at ILB, it will not be on passing downs. That's just stupid. They have Jackson and now Maiava for that

And you are putting way too much emphasis on the 40, which also makes you look extremely foolish. His burst and change of direction speed is more than satisfactory.

It is NFL Network's opinion not just mine. Mayock called it the thinnest draft in years, Casserely, the ex GM of the Texans agreed with him completely.
They both felt that there were at most 21 real first rounders in the draft, another reason I questioned the trading down pattern. With 11 2nd rounders going in round 1, round 2 and 3 was exceptionally weak as each successive round stole large numbers from the round that followed it.
No doubt a few teams will still have an exceptional draft provided they had an experienced, successful GM with a proven track record. You have to question whether or not Mangini fits that description even with the help of the new GM.
You may hate hearing it but it is a fact nevertheless.
As for Veinuke, he went in round 2, never the strongest recommendation for for any prospect and considering the weakness of the draft(sorry but I accept NFL Network's assessment over just about any draft guru), Veinuke may really struggle. As for his 40 time, every draft magazine I have ever read indicates that 4.90 is the dead minimum speed for an ILB in the NFL and at 4.89, Veinuke is close to that mark. You can say it is insignificant but that doesn't make it true. Time of course will decide if Veinuke will be successful and he may well surprise, but all I'm pointing out is that the odds aren't in his favour.

Iamcanadian
06-18-2009, 01:56 AM
This.

Come on now IAC. First time someone calls you a horse you punch them in the nose. The second time someone calls you a horse you call them a jerk. The third time someone calls your a horse, maybe it's time to go shopping for a saddle.

Just because someone disagrees with your opinion and you are unable to refute his argument, you seem to think insults will win you points. When someone questions my opinion I give him my feedback, he can accept it, ignore it or refute it, it's his choice and I don't take it personally either way.
Nobody forces you to read my posts, it's your choice and if they bother you that much ignore them but that doesn't seem to be your strategy.
For the last 5 years I hounded the Lion's board telling them that Millen was a cancer and for 5 years they tried to believe until it became impossible to ignore but I don't remember them resorting to insults to win. The arguments were always civil.
Yes, I'm very pessimistic about the Browns because my experience in studying successful franchises leaves me cold on Lerner especially since I held down important administrative positions during my career and can spot a weak organization when I see one. What experience do you have???
If you can refute my points then do so by all means, if you can't then ignore me if you want, but name calling only demeans you in everybody's eyes.

barry
06-30-2009, 08:13 PM
i think time will show whether the 2009 draft was a decent class or not. what you choose as criterion can make it murky. but IIRC the 2005 draft was billed as being rather mediocre - and it showed:

- in that only one top 10 pick has made the pro bowl - BE;
- in the percentage of second day picks that stayed in the league. a few seasons ago, it was zero, but when i checked again recently, a couple finally managed to stick with teams in backup roles.

also, it seems to me that high school draft ratings can be somewhat of an indicator like it has been for basketball in projecting the strength of any given class.

keylime_5
08-02-2009, 02:20 PM
wow, training camp is less than two days old and about 95% of the talk so far has been about DA and Quinn. So far sounds like Quinn has been excelling at what he does well, and DA has been excelling at what he does well. I wish we could combine their powers and make a megazord QB out of the two.

D-Unit
08-04-2009, 01:45 PM
How is David Veikune looking? Is he signed yet?

kalbears13
08-04-2009, 03:26 PM
How is David Veikune looking? Is he signed yet?

Yeah, he's signed. All of the rookies were signed before training camp. I haven't heard anything about his performance so far.

j05son
08-04-2009, 06:02 PM
Quick thoughts of Training Camp written by Lane Adkins from the Orange and Brown report.

www.cle.scout.com

- WR Braylon Edwards (ankle), NT Shaun Rogers (ankle) and Don Carey (shoulder) all missed the Monday morning practice session. Edwards and Rogers were enjoying a pleasant morning riding on the stationary bikes, while Carey was not on the field.

- CB Eric Wright left the practice session after appearing to have tweaked a hamstring. Corey Ivy gained additional reps when Wright went down and fared reasonably well in breaking up a couple passes, although he was beaten by WR Lance Leggett on a deep route. QB Brady Quinn laid in a perfectly thrown pass from 50+ yards out into the waiting arms of Leggett, who bobbled the pass, but hauled in what was a TD reception.

- With Rogers on the sideline, Robaire Smith, Ahtyba Rubin, Louis Leonard and C.J. Mosely rotated at the nose tackle position. Rubin, believed the be the front-runner to backup Rogers this season, fared best of the group.

- During drills pitting offensive versus defensive linemen. Mosely blew by LT Joe Thomas with surprising ease. Thomas did not set in position quick enough and Mosely wasted little time in exposing Thomas. In their next encounter, Thomas anchored down, displayed a quick and decisive punch, stopping Mosely dead in his tracks, providing the defensive lineman very little drive opportunity.

- Rubin gaining some additional exposure as he got the best of two encounters with rookie center Alex Mack. On one occasion, Rubin drove Mack into the backfield and the second Rubin maintained the upper hand in a very physical battle.

- Veteran center Hank Fraley worked well in the practice session, limiting the advances of NT Shaun Smith and Louis Leonard. Lined up with the starting unit in team drills, Fraley was in the middle of some effective blocking in drills.

- Midway through the session on Sunday, veteran Ryan Tucker gained reps with the starting unit. Since this time, Tucker appears to be regaining his feel for the game, and has been much more competitive and fluid in drills.

- Alongside Tucker has been free agent acquisition Floyd "Pork Chop" Womack. Womack has been quietly effective throughout the four practice sessions to date.

- John St. Clair lined up as the starter at RT early in the camp sessions, but has worked with the second unit at LT and RT of late. This movement is part of the evaluation process of the coaching staff to determine versatility and depth.

- Undrafted rookie free agent Branndon Braxton continues to display some impressive skills. Long and athletic, Braxton is showing improving footwork and strength that makes him a viable prospect for this team. Braxton is a player to watch and evaluate his development.

- OLB David Bowens has been effective in gaining pressure coming off the edge from his OLB position. Throughout practice sessions Bowens has been driving linemen, TE's and RB's back in drills; this morning Bowens destroyed RT George Foster in one specific blocking drill. Foster did make a better showing when the two faced off again; in gaining positioning and balance, Foster fended off the rush of Bowens.

- TE Steve Heiden got to remove the red limited-contact jersey and was involved in drills, catching a pass in a team drill midway through the session.

- TE Martin Rucker was blown off the ball in blocking drills by OLB Alex Hall. In their second encounter, Rucker fared better, but still had his hands full with the quick and decisively stronger Hall.

- DE Kenyon Coleman batted down a pass again in today's practice session. Getting hands up to block the view of the QB has been a facet worked on during drills.

- The ILB's, namely Eric Barton and D'Qwell Jackson play instinctively; flowing to the ball has not been an issue for the pair as the defensive staff installs new scheme packages.

- The Monday morning session was an up and down affair for Quinn and Derek Anderson. Anderson threw the ball well on most occasions, but was again intercepted, this time by safety Hamza Abdullah who returned the pick for a TD. Despite the interception, Anderson's poise and accuracy were solid for the second straight session.

- Quinn simply appears to get better as a practice session progresses and facing live competition. Granted, the QB still threw numerous passes behind the receivers, one which would have been an easy TD pass to rookie Jordan Norwood. But, his overall touch down field is improving with each passing session. As with Anderson, the number of errant passes should diminish once the timing with the receivers and within the offensive sets become second nature.

- Another practice in the books and another day I have to write about rookie RB James Davis. Again in this session against top-of-the-depth chart competition, Davis' quick one-cut-and-go ability, coupled with what appears to be excellent vision and quickness makes him interesting and intriguing to follow. Now, we have viewed players in the past waltz into camp and excite -- let's see what happens in a couple weeks when the practices begin to take their physical and mental toll on a player and the preseason games begin.

- WR Paul Hubbard has not gotten off to a solid start in camp. Hubbard has dropped a few passes, which was the knock on the speedy receiver when coming out of Wisconsin. During the Monday morning session, Hubbard cut off a route which resulted in an incomplete pass, came back and made a fantastic reception of a Quinn dart in the hurry-up, then flailed aimlessly at another Quinn attempt later in the same session.

j05son
08-07-2009, 02:17 PM
Carey to IR: Mangini said that DB Don Carey was waived and placed on injured reserve. He did say that Carey’s injury was to his shoulder and it was to the point that he wouldn’t be available to play for quite some time.

“Carey wouldn’t be available until next year’s minicamp, so we went ahead and made the move.”
10characters....

keylime_5
08-07-2009, 05:39 PM
If they stay healthy we should have a pretty decent DLine this year with that much depth in the rotation. We were supposed to be good last year, but Williams was a bust and there was no one else at DE. This year with Rogers back at NT, and Coleman/Williams/Smith/Mosley at DE we should be pretty tough up front.

j05son
08-07-2009, 09:39 PM
If they stay healthy we should have a pretty decent DLine this year with that much depth in the rotation. We were supposed to be good last year, but Williams was a bust and there was no one else at DE. This year with Rogers back at NT, and Coleman/Williams/Smith/Mosley at DE we should be pretty tough up front.

To early to call Williams a bust. With everything that happened last year and his bum shoulder, way to early.

kalbears13
08-08-2009, 04:02 AM
I'm flying out to Cleveland tomorrow morning. I'm going to be there for the week and I'm going to go to the Browns training camp. Hopefully I'll be back with some information. Maybe I'll see you guys there.

j05son
08-08-2009, 03:18 PM
I'm flying out to Cleveland tomorrow morning. I'm going to be there for the week and I'm going to go to the Browns training camp. Hopefully I'll be back with some information. Maybe I'll see you guys there.

Have fun and be safe.

If you go into Cleveland be prepared to hear Cleveland's official saying; "Hey man, spare a dalla?"

keylime_5
08-08-2009, 03:36 PM
To early to call Williams a bust. With everything that happened last year and his bum shoulder, way to early.

williams was a bust last year i mean. tbd on the overall signing.

j05son
08-09-2009, 01:33 AM
Shaun Smith cut.

Steptoe hurt his shoulder and had to be carted off.

Looks like Hadnot tore his MCL and not his ACL which is good.

wonderbredd24
08-09-2009, 04:12 PM
It's fantastic news about Hadnot as he is the primary backup at center and left guard... possibly right guard.

It could however spell the end of Hank Fraley in Cleveland... remains to be seen.

Corey Williams is not a bust yet. He will however likely be the primary backup, but that has a lot to do with the fact that Robaire Smith is playing out of his mind for a guy coming off that injury (PEDs perhaps?) and who knows how long that is going to last. Corey Williams is definitely getting better and has gotten pressure on the QB this camp.

The depth chart on the DLine probably goes as follows right now:

LDE: Robaire Smith, Corey Williams
NT: Shaun Rogers, Ahtyba Rubin
RDE: Kenyon Coleman, CJ Mosely

It looks like a good rotation to me, which should keep guys fresh.

Mohammed Massaquoi is inconsistent, but making huge strides and some people think he's ahead of Robiskie and taking some of his reps.

j05son
08-09-2009, 06:58 PM
Brown and White scrimmage was today.

Derek Anderson got the nod and started for Brown which had the first team offense and the second team defense. Quinn was on White which was the second team offense but the first team defense.

Anderson went 12-21, 107yds, 1 rushing TD and 1 INT.

Anderson scrambled 6 yds for a score. Anderson led Brown into the redzone before throwing a pick to D'Qwell Jackson in the endzone. Another time Anderson was near goal line and was sacked by Shaun Rogers. Anderson retaliated with spiking the ball at Rogers and gained an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty moving Brown outside of the 5.

Brady Quinn was 11-19, 121 yrds, 1 TD, 1 INT.
First play of the game Quinn hit Lance Leggett off of playaction for a 51 yard TD. I don't know who caught Quinn's INT but I read it was off of Leggett's hands.

Brett Ratliff hit David Patten for the Brown team twice, once for a 70 yard score [against first team defense] and again for a 50+ which put Brown on the 6 yard line to end the third quarter. Anderson took over the helms and scrambled in for the score.

17-14 Brown ahead, Quinn rallied back and took the White team from their own 30 to Brown's 30 where Dawson missed the FG.

wonderbredd24
08-09-2009, 07:03 PM
Mike Adams got the tipped Quinn pass

j05son
08-09-2009, 07:23 PM
I like Adams. He's a good asset to have on the team. From everything I've read, it basically praised Quinn and talked about how Anderson seemed shaky, indecisive, made bad decisions [the unsportsmanlike call and I guess he telegraphed and tried to force the throw Jackson intercepted in the endzone and almost took it the other way].

Steptoe is out for the year and will require surgery after falling in the rain in a non contact, no tackling, no pads, shorts and jersey practice. Steptoe's agent states it's Mangini's fault. I'm guessing Steptoe will be waived, who knows if he'll be signed again and placed on the IR like Carey was.

keylime_5
08-10-2009, 07:24 PM
two things:

1-I don't like the brown pants. They're okay, but the white looks way better and I hope the change isn't permanent.

2-I'm liking that Massaqoui is impressing and the favorite to be the #2 WR this season so far. I always thought that he had a ton of potential watching him at Georgia, especially after his breakout senior year. Robiskie is gonna be a fine pro WR and a career #2 eventually, but MoMass has a lot of potential.

keylime_5
08-11-2009, 12:32 PM
Starting lineup according to the first preseason depth chart:

QB-Derek Anderson/Brady Quinn (costarters)
RB-Jamal Lewis
FB-Lawrence Vickers
WR-Braylon Edwards
WR-Mike Furrey
TE-Robert Royal
LT-Joe THomas
LG-Eric Steinbach
C-Hank Fraley
RG-Floyd Womack
RT-John St.Clair

LE-Corey Williams
NT-Shaun Rogers
RE-Kenyon Coleman
LOLB-Kamerion Wimbley
LILB-D'Qwell Jackson
RILB-Eric Barton
ROLB-David Bowens
LCB-Eric Wright
RCB-Brandon McDonald
FS-Brodney Pool
SS-Abram Elam

FULL DEPTH CHART (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/chart.php)

kalbears13
08-12-2009, 04:56 PM
TC Update (More like observations. All of this is my opinion and I was on one side of the field and sadly I don't have 100 pairs of eyes):

-Brady Quinn looked like Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson looked like Derek Anderson. Brady was working solely with the first team and Derek was working with the second team, but that could be just for today. Neither were consistent. Working with the 1st team, he could sit in the pocket longer than Derek.

- Derek Anderson made some really good throws but it looked like when the pressure came, he would hold onto the ball too long and tried to scramble, which isn't one of his best attributes. Working with the 2nd team gave him less time though

- Brady Quinn dinked and dunked and didn't really make huge mistakes but didn't show great accuracy and overthrew a lot of players, even when it was just him and the receiver. He had a nice drive during what looked like the two-minute drill.

-I was disappointed to not see James Davis out there.

-Cribbs looked pretty polished at receiver.

-Braylon pulled up limp on a Brady Quinn pass and he sat out for the rest of practice. (Whether it was legit, I do not know.)

-Jordan Norwood looks good and quick.

-Zastudil didn't punt today but when asked, he said he is going to punt tomorrow.

- Leggett, Patten and Harrison were on the bikes all day.

- Noah Herron dropped two consecutive passes in the flats from Brady Quinn.

- Nick Sorensen had two picks. One in 7 on 7 and another off of Massoquoi's shoulder pad during what looked like a two minute drill, 11 on 11.

- Robiskie showed some skill in the red-zone, making two acrobatic catches in the corner and tough coverage.

- I didn't get to see a lot of defensive stuff because that was on the other side of the field.

- I got Pontbriand, Hunt, Robiskie and Quinn's autograph. It was a pretty good day, though Joe Thomas kept ignoring me and I'm kinda disappointed that I didn't get his autograph, but whatever.

- I'll post some pictures when I get back to California.

wonderbredd24
08-12-2009, 05:54 PM
How did Massaquoi look? There are a few people in the media making this guy sound like an absolute stud already

Did you get a chance to look at Wimbley, Hall, and Veikune?

They also are making Coye Francies sound like a beast out there

kalbears13
08-12-2009, 07:49 PM
How did Massaquoi look? There are a few people in the media making this guy sound like an absolute stud already

Did you get a chance to look at Wimbley, Hall, and Veikune?

They also are making Coye Francies sound like a beast out there

I saw Massaquoi just a little bit. He didn't do anything extraordinary but he didn't drop anything. This is also just 2 hours of practice I saw.

The defensive players were mostly on the far end of the field so I couldn't really see them. I mostly paid attention to the stuff on my side which was the offense. I really would have loved to see them though. The only thing I saw was Wimbley 50 yards away and he looked like a man-child, but that's old news.

Smoke14
08-13-2009, 06:35 PM
I'm hearing that Alex Hall has completely fallen out of favor with the coaching staff. They were willing to give him a achance to start, but now he is no longer even a lock to make this team.

Can someone please tell me this is just typical terrible media coverage in Clevelandand that Alex Hall will make this team and be given a chance to contribute. What is the real truth?

Oh and I hope Mary Kay Cabot gets hit by a bus and Shaun Smith gets backed over by the same bus. Her reporting is always terrible and it always seems she is out to get this team. She's letting out a majority of the information that always comes back to make us look like a terribly run organization.

wonderbredd24
08-13-2009, 06:46 PM
Not sure where you heard this, but the team likes Alex Hall

As it stands now, he will likely be the primary pass rush specialist coming in on 3rd downs. He is primarily playing on the 2nd team and really getting after the quarterback, but he's also shown glimpses of being very effective in coverage. His ability to read is improving, but has a way to go and he can still get bigger... there's a lot of room left on that frame.

keylime_5
08-14-2009, 01:25 PM
I hear conflicting things about Hall, both very credible the way and by who I've heard them. He won't start but he should play a lot. Titus Brown could push for playing time as he has been a real surprise this camp and is taking some of David Bowens' first team reps away at times. Hall has been consistently a 2nd teamer in practice. And as for Kamerion Wimbley he'll be moving around a lot this year (LOLB, ROLB, ILB, DE), but his primary position this year is LOLB which I think will help him out a lot, and help us out a lot.

wonderbredd24
08-14-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm just happy to see a preseason where I can still be interested in watching our 3rd string QB lead the offense.

Ken Dorsey was just brutal to watch... and it would be extremely hard to see anyone else in the offense do anything worthwhile

I'm excited to watch Brett Ratliff

kalbears13
08-17-2009, 01:00 AM
I just finished watching the 2009 State Farm All-Star Challenge with Jordan Norwood...

I wish Braylon had his hands.

D-Unit
08-17-2009, 12:31 PM
Thoughts on Veikune? I didn't get to see his INT. How'd it go down?

Haven't really been following his progress either. His agent was on the radio saying they want to try him at ILB? Thought that was interesting.

Brown Leader
08-17-2009, 01:46 PM
And as for Kamerion Wimbley he'll be moving around a lot this year (LOLB, ROLB, ILB, DE), but his primary position this year is LOLB which I think will help him out a lot, and help us out a lot.

It doesn't really matter where they play Wimbley, he has apparently lost all his instincts since his rookie season. His best attribute was his quickness and fluidity, once that goes... I like Hall but he doesn't get off the block-If he gets there he punishes though. Ultimately, defensively, until this 34 finds pass rushers it won't succeed, simple as that.


Thoughts on Veikune? I didn't get to see his INT. How'd it go down?

Veikune is being used at ILB. His pick was off a strip/pressure caused by OLBTitus Brown I think, and he showed decent instincts to go get.

Some thoughts after pre-season gm #1-Failure.
Played exactly like some pro evaluators said they would be this season-one of the worst teams in football.

DA/Quinn: Only thing I have to say about Quinn is that 20+ yd plays are a necessity if your going to score points. I'd like to see him not hesitate to throw to the 2nd and 3rd window as quick as he is to throw to the 1st window.
DA's footwork is as slow as ever. This negates his quick release. Maby it's been practicing against a poor pass rush this camp but he was too slow setting up against the Packers blitzes.

Edwards has a problem. Sooner he acknowledges this, the faster he can work to solve it. But imo his ego and pride will prevent him from facing up. He remains a liability for this team as a #1WR.

Positive note-Impressed with Rubin and Francies Sat. IF Cribbs can get into the starting lineup as the #2WR he'll improve the play of the whole offense. Harrison needs equal carries and more overall touches than Jamal. BRobiskie could feast against nickel backs if he gets that opportunity.

keylime_5
08-17-2009, 01:50 PM
One thing that stood out to me in that game was Kam Wimbley on defense getting pressure, forcing the QB to scramble out of the pocket, being around the ball a lot. That's what we need to see out of KWimbley every week, even if he's not getting double digit sack numbers. He's a good player, if we had a great pass rusher on the weakside to compliment him then we'd be set at OLB. I don't think he's gonna be the #1 pass rusher like a Demarcus Ware, Joey Porter, Shawne Merriman, but he can be a very good #2 pass rusher off the edge.

Brown Leader
08-17-2009, 02:53 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree mi amigo. I checked back and what stands out to me is Wimbley being controlled by TE/WR D.Lee. Embarrassing. He recorded a couple of pressures(1 unblocked) Sat. but too often he exerts so much energy to get a pressure he is completely out of control once he's close to the QB. (which reminds me he's a bad tackler moving downhill) He is far from his rookie year as a pass rusher where his movement quickness was too much for many OT's. I can think of only 1 impact(big play) tackle he's made in the run game for his career and none in the pass game. :confused:

wonderbredd24
08-17-2009, 02:59 PM
Veikune will be used inside and outside

I was extremely encouraged by Kamerion Wimbley... he used 2 different moves that he never used last year effective. He used a fake inside and went right around a tackle on one play and he bull rushed effectively on another. In addition to that, he was all over the field. He is deceptively fast.

wonderbredd24
08-17-2009, 03:02 PM
As the biggest Ahtyba Rubin fan here, I think he's gotten much better, but he was a 50/50 player. He'd look good on one play and then on another just stand up and get shoved backward.

I like him as Rogers' backup, but he's got a ways to go before he could start.

Coye Francies was a guy I liked going into the draft and he has not dissapointed thus far. He can hit too

kalbears13
08-24-2009, 08:51 PM
I put some pictures from my training camp visit in the training camp photo thread.

MicktheGreat
08-27-2009, 08:32 PM
Do you guys think James Davis has a chance to be the Browns' starting RB next season???

Personally, I always thought Davis had the size/ability to be a starting RB in the NFL, and I thought his draft stock was unfairly lowered by Clemson's underachieving play (in general) last season.