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kalbears13
08-27-2009, 08:52 PM
Do you guys think James Davis has a chance to be the Browns' starting RB next season???

Personally, I always thought Davis had the size/ability to be a starting RB in the NFL, and I thought his draft stock was unfairly lowered by Clemson's underachieving play (in general) last season.

Yes. Of course there is a chance.

Is there a good chance though? I still think so.

I can't believe Jamal is still playing and I believe that he's going to become ineffective sooner than later. Right now, he isn't the same runningback he was years ago and he hasn't really been that runningback with the Browns at all. His only other long term competition is Jerome Harrison and any draftees next year. He should be able to beat out Jerome Harrison due to his ability to do everything else. I can't see Jerome Harrison being the starter. James Davis' biggest competition is probably anyone brought in next year.

wonderbredd24
08-27-2009, 09:07 PM
For anyone that saw the Lions' game, Jamal Lewis virtually crawled through some enormous holes.

Mack should have made enough strides to start, so with a good run blocking line plus the best fullback no one's heard of in Lawrence Vickers, there will be holes for someone... why the hell not Davis?

I expect Mangini/Kokinis will bring in a big back next year via the draft though... Mangini likes having a bigger back

keylime_5
08-28-2009, 11:10 AM
I was a massive James Davis fan ever since he was a true freshman at Clemson. I hope he and Harrison can handle the load if Lewis is ineffective this year.

wonderbredd24
08-28-2009, 11:22 AM
I was a massive James Davis fan ever since he was a true freshman at Clemson. I hope he and Harrison can handle the load when Lewis is ineffective this year.

Fixed

It's an inevitability

wonderbredd24
08-29-2009, 09:39 PM
Thoughts on the Titans game:

-The Browns run D was actually pretty good. Without Shaun Rogers, the Browns run D only gave up about 50 yards to the Titans, who have one of if not the best OLine in football as well as Chris Johnson and Lendale White. Hopefully that's a sign of things to come, because it should only get better with Rogers.

-On the other hand, the Browns pass D was mediocre. Coverage was mediocre overall and Rod Hood was abused. The pass rush showed signs of life, but the Tennessee OLine showed why it's so dominant. Kerry Collins sat back with all kinds of time and picked us apart. But you have to think the gameplan was to make Kerry Collins beat them, so they did that much right.

-Kenyon Coleman is clearly the best DEnd the Browns have had since they switched to the 3-4. He's good against the run, but he can rush the passer too. It's much easier to appreciate the 3-4 when you have ends that do not suck.

-Kamerion Wimbley had one sack and almost had another. No one is going to confuse him with DeMarcus Ware, but he deserves credit and I do think he will be better this year than the last 2.

-Tuba Rubin gets better every week and amazingly was probably the most consistent pass rusher we had tonight. He gave Kevin Mawae, a future HoFer, all he could handle. Rubin has absolutely benefited from Rogers being out.

-Alex Hall got an easy pick 6, but he looked very natural in doing so. There is definitely a reason to be excited about him.

-Jamal Lewis needs to be relegated to a short yardage back. Yea, he's alright as a receiver, but no one is afraid of him as a running back. James Davis looked solid both as a runner and a receiver. He really should be starting at this point.

-Both QBs looked pretty good tonight, although I thought Quinn looked better and should be named the starter. He led the offense effectively and got the Browns a field goal. Maybe if they didn't waste a running play on Lewis, he gets a TD instead. He led the Browns to their 1st passing TD of the preseason against Titan backups. He changed the play at the line and took advantage of one on one coverage on Edwards.

Derek Anderson looked really good for a couple passes and then after the sack he never had a chance on, took a bad penalty, then tried to kill Robert Royal to end the drive. To me, that was Derek Anderson in a nutshell.

-The Browns looked phenominal on special teams. Good returns from Cribbs, good coverage and a turnover, plus the blocked field goal. Special teams prevented 3 points from the Titans and enabled 7 for the Browns. Gotta love that.

-After one half of play, the Browns were only down 7-3. Would anyone have guessed the Browns would have been that competitive against a team like the Titans? It seems like progress to me.

keylime_5
09-01-2009, 09:25 AM
One constant for me in the 3 preseason games so far has been Kamerion Wimbley. He has been an impressive football player.

wonderbredd24
09-01-2009, 09:45 AM
One constant for me in the 3 preseason games so far has been Kamerion Wimbley. He has been an impressive football player.

There are some people saying he's still been dissapointing. The kid has been all over the field, has been great against the run, and has shown several pass rush moves that he never had in years past. Michael Roos is a great tackle and Wimbley had the sack on him and if you notice, Wimbley on one bull rushed him straight into the quarterback in addition to some near sacks on Vince Young.

I think he's going to have a big year and I am really excited about Alex Hall if he can get consistent playing time. Hall gets better everytime out

wonderbredd24
09-01-2009, 10:49 AM
The Browns traded DL Louis Leonard to the Panthers to help with their DT problem... not revealed what we got in return, but it's like found money if you ask me.

Brown Leader
09-05-2009, 12:22 PM
Is there any consensus on here that Jim Donovon and Bernie Kosar are the worst pre-season announcers in the League? The opening promo is like a clip from Anchorman and Bernie has the worst broadcasting voice I've ever heard.

J.Lewis rumors are alarming-with the way Wells has looked for Arizona, cutting Lewis after passing on Beanie would be complete failure. JD has been as advertised but I don't think he's ready to be an effective starter. As an old vet. I think Jamal holds back in pre-season.

wonderbredd24
09-05-2009, 12:28 PM
Is there any consensus on here that Jim Donovon and Bernie Kosar are the worst pre-season announcers in the League? The opening promo is like a clip from Anchorman and Bernie has the worst broadcasting voice I've ever heard.

J.Lewis rumors are alarming-with the way Wells has looked for Arizona, cutting Lewis after passing on Beanie would be complete failure. JD has been as advertised but I don't think he's ready to be an effective starter. As an old vet. I think Jamal holds back in pre-season.

Jim Donovan is great on the radio... not as good on TV, but still worthwhile

Bernie's voice is attrocious, but his analysis is phenominal especially on QBs.

The only guy I'd want analyzing if not Bernie would be Mike Mayock because of his analysis of younger players.

James Davis should start

Jamal Lewis should be in the Jerome Bettis role at the end of his career... short yardage, goal line, 4th quarter

barry
09-05-2009, 05:54 PM
beau bell, phil hubbard, et al - gone

lewis, harrison survive cut, but herron is gone; once davis picked up the blitz on the pass to massaquoi, you could see that coming.

bell didn't fit the mold of a mangini ILB. unless his learning disability is a major speed bump, he might still latch on somewhere.

i still suspect that the browns were poised to take chung at 36 but the pats traded up to snag him at 34. had the browns not taken robiskie, i wonder if hubbard might have made the final cut.

keylime_5
09-08-2009, 04:53 PM
With the emergence of Rubin this training camp/preseason and the solid guys we have in Smith, Williams, Mosley, and Coleman (and Rogers of course), I'm cautiously optomistic about our D-Line. Praying that Wimbley has a big year or else our defense will me middle of the pack at best.

wonderbredd24
09-08-2009, 04:58 PM
With the emergence of Rubin this training camp/preseason and the solid guys we have in Smith, Williams, Mosley, and Coleman (and Rogers of course), I'm cautiously optomistic about our D-Line. Praying that Wimbley has a big year or else our defense will me middle of the pack at best.

The Dline should be a strength this year if we don't get injuries. We can legitimate go 6 deep.

I am excited about Wimbley this year. He has been all over the field making plays and you definitely see just how physically gifted he is. He's been dare I say dominant as a run defender.

In addition to that, he's displayed a multitude of moves as a pass rusher. If you watch the Tennessee game, he bull rushed Michael Roos, an all pro tackle, into the quarterback.

I think he's primed to have a big year, but I'm sure he's going to make me look like an ass now.

I'm curious to see what David Bowens gives, but Alex Hall fresh off the bench as a pass rusher could be devastating for opponents

Brown Leader
09-21-2009, 10:52 PM
Feels like it's time to start some draft talk, but in order for this defense to work, which is basically the same D as Ryan's brother, u need to have a solid running game. (and of course pass rushers) Otherwise the D will be spent by the 3rd quarter. (blowouts back to back? Even Crennel avoided that) Ball control offense-maby that was part of the thinking in choosing Brady over Derek but so far epic fail. Watching Moreno last Sunday left me dreaming about my fantasy backfield of Jamal and Knowshon and wondering why Robiskie and Massaquoi were taken in the 2nd. (..and Faine, i mean Mack in the 1st.)

Few other observations: Wondering if St.Clair will get help this season-and if they'll properly execute a screen or draw. As bad as Poteat is playing might as well put Francies in the nickel. Quinn has looked particularly bad throwing deep downfield; i know its not his strong point but wow-and it's only September. If E.Wright had McDonald's toughness we'd have one really good CB.

This squad has had the most success running the ball only after opening the field with downfield passes, but DA would've been sacked even more had he been in ANd added a few picks-but we mighta had a TD. Can anyone figure what Mangini meant to be this team's identity this season?

still lol u went there..
I am excited about Wimbley this year. He has been all over the field making plays and you definitely see just how physically gifted he is. He's been dare I say dominant as a run defender. I think he's primed to have a big year, but I'm sure he's going to make me look like an ass now.
ehh..it's only week 3

wonderbredd24
09-22-2009, 10:27 AM
Yea, what a bum... only 1 sack and 3 QB hits in 2 weeks and for the entire Denver game, they put on the TE for whatever reason

Brown Leader
09-24-2009, 04:51 AM
Lol, I just checked the i hate quinn exchange last week about Brady and Wimbley.
I don't understand this Kamerion fascination (keylime-Wb24), maby it's the flashy name. It's not really an issue but im wandering rather than thinking about the likely shut out this Sunday-and because OLB is crucial in the 34-and mostly cause im procrastinating from my work.
It takes chutzpah to call a guy who's been on a perennial bottom of the league run defense a good to great run defender. Especially a guy who needs to pursue to make tackles. I'd like nothing more this sunday for our boy to get 3-4 sacks or the key tip or strip or get bunch of TFL but let's be real. I'd prefer to be wrong or totally off base, and i'd like to see him have a monster season but..

Here's a quick list of good 2nd tier 34 OLB of late that would (or would've) push Kam to 2nd string:

Shaun Phillips
Greg Ellis
Lamar Woodley
Ben Leber
Mike Vrabel
Calvin Pace
Bryan Thomas
Jarret Johnson
Dumervil ? LOL

j05son
09-28-2009, 03:43 PM
Mangini cited that one of his influences is Coach Bombay from Disney films 'The Mighty Ducks' and after re-watching the first of the trilogy [like he was going to watch that pathetic game film from Sunday] it is expected that the Cleveland Browns will be attempting to take dives [no, not like that phantom sack Anderson gave Baltimore in the Red Zone] to help move the ball.

Smoke14
10-01-2009, 12:19 AM
D'Qwell Jackson is the most overrated linebacker in the last 20 years. The guy waits for the running back to come to him every freaking time, and like last sunday even back pedals as the runner is coming to him. F that ******** midget. Lets let his a$$ walk in free agency and find a real play maker to put in his spot next to Veikune for a future duo. Oh and let Brodney Pool's terrible break down wrap up tackling a$$ walk his happy little behind right out of town too. He'll be someones 5th string saftey on the inactive list come sunday's just like Sean Jones is for Philadelphia right now. Jesus Phil Savage and Romeo Crennel couldn't spot talent if it his them right between the eyes.

Jeremy Trueblood(RT) and Tony Sheffler(TE) are brought in to enhance the offense. Stanford Routt(CB), Brad Smith(WR) Eric Coleman(S) are brought in as depth. Franchise Braylond Edwards and release Fraley, Smith, St. Clair and Poteat.

With Pool and Jackson giving their walking papers we need to find play makers in the first 3 rounds for our defense:

1(4) Sean Weatherspoon 6'2 245 LB Missouri
-downfield attacking linebacker who brings it to the ball carrier very gifted athlete and good form tackler. He plays with smarts and fundamentals something we lack severely on defense right now.

2(34) ReShad Jones 6'2 215 S Georgia
-Extremely gifted athlete who will punish recievers coming over the middle. He's a ball hawk with great range and decent form tackling ability. He'll need coached up on tackling because he goes for the knockout blow everytime, but then so does Taylor Mays.

3(68) Tyson Alualu 6'3 290 DE California
-Nasty demeanor upfront, very physical, and a decent athlete for his size and postion(34 DE). He's very stout against the run with the athletic ability and developing pass rushing skills to get after the QB. He can collapse the pockete with power and clog running lanes with ease.

4(103) Thomas Austin 6'3 315 G/C Clemson
-Physical blocker who has blocked for a very solid rushing attack each season at Clemson. He'll be the eventual replacement for Rex Hadnot at RG or at worst become a very good swing man for the interior of our offensive line adding quallity depth.

5(142) Keiland Williams 5'11 224 RB LSU
-Low mileage running back with very high upside and talent. He has pass catching skills out of the backfield for screens and check downs. He runs very hard when he wants to run hard and has the break away speed we lack in our backfield even being the bigger back he is...who knows we could strike gold considering the crowded backfield they have at LSU.

5(143) Michael Hoomanawanui 6'5 270 TE Illinois
- He'll be our eventual replacement for Robert Royal as the blocking TE but with much better recieving skills. He has caught less than 40 career pass, however, he has never dropped a single pass. He has hands like glue and blocks very well.

6(188) Walter Thurmond 6'0 190 CB Oregon
-Ultra talented play maker in the secondary for Oregon of the past 3 seasons. Unfortunetly he suffered a serious season ending injury recently and will fall hard in the draft. We take a flier on him late hoping to come up with the boom instead of gloom. If he heals and gets right he'll be a huge steal. If he doesn't then we only wasted a 6th rounder.

7(230) Carl Ihenacho 6'3 255 DE/OLB San Jose State
-Athletic DE who posted huge numbers once he got going at SJS and we all know Mangini loves his SJS players drafting 2 in the last 2 drafts. He'll most likely end up on the practice squad as our developmental 34 rush backer, or could make it as the nickle rusher if he steps up as a rook.

7(240) Aaron Pettrey 6'2 199 K Ohio State
- Phil Dawson has fallen off huge and can't kick forever. Pettrey has the long distance accuracy we could use in close games.

wonderbredd24
10-01-2009, 12:54 AM
Sean Witherspoon would be an absolutely attrocious fit in this defense. He's a prototypical WLB in a 4-3

On the other hand, homerun with Alualu who would be a fantastic fit in our defense and someone I like quite a bit.

I am not sure what to think of Keiland Williams... great competitor, but he's not great between the tackles and that's what we need.

Your 4th and other 5th are fine, but I'd wait and see what the prognosis is on Thurmond, because if what Scott mentioned is true in that he damaged all 4 tendons, his career may very well be over.

I disagree about Phil Dawson... he's actually improved with age.

It's not too bad, but that Witherspoon pick is just terrible.

Personally, the Browns board for their 1st pick should be two guys: Gerald McCoy and Eric Berry.

Personally, I'd like to see something along the lines of...

1. Gerald McCoy, DT Oklahoma - Enormous upgrade on our defensive line, where he'd step in as an immediate impact player as a 3-4 end and when Rob Ryan uses his nickel, McCoy becomes the UT.

2. Ciron Black, OT LSU - Immediate starter at right tackle. Has good enough feet to protect the passer, but is also able to bring it in the running game

Go from there

Iamcanadian
10-01-2009, 07:04 AM
I think we will be looking for a QB since we didn't draft Sanchez. We will be drafting top 3 and QB will be the #1 priority. Yeah that trade is working out nicely for us??? This team is going nowhere for a long time until we find a franchise QB. Imagine, we could have had Sanchez and be set for the next decade.

wonderbredd24
10-01-2009, 09:33 AM
I think we will be looking for a QB since we didn't draft Sanchez. We will be drafting top 3 and QB will be the #1 priority. Yeah that trade is working out nicely for us??? This team is going nowhere for a long time until we find a franchise QB. Imagine, we could have had Sanchez and be set for the next decade.

Sanchez would be awful on this team.

The transitive property does not work here

Smoke14
10-01-2009, 10:38 AM
Weatherspoon is a far greater fit in the 34 defense than D'Qwell Jackson. Everyone every year comes up with this crazy a$$ reasons why so and so wouldn't fit in a 34 defense. Its a bunch of hog wash. Watch the man play some games and you'd see he's everything D'Qwell Jackson never was, and everything that Bart Scott is today. He's fast, he's physical and he's a sure tackler. He needs work on shedding blocks, but so does Kindle, Norwood, Spikes, McClain, Johnson, and Lee. Every college linebacker for the most part is terrible at shedding blocks because they simply don't typically need to do so. Weatherspoon has the strenght and explosiveness to be able to do it once he's coached to do it.

Tyson Alualu is going to have a better career as a 34 DE so why in God's name would we draft Gerald McCoy with the 4th overall pick when we can get a much better player for less money and use the higher pick on and impact player. 34 DEs don't need to be impact players. With Alualu we're getting out Aaron Smith type who quietly going to be one of the best in the game and get no media love because his tackles numbers and sacks will be low to mediocre at best.

Walter Thurmond's knee is the hole reason he falls to the 6th round where we can take a chance. If it wasn't for him destroying his knee he was going to be a mid-late 1st round pick. He has extreme talent when right and we're just taking a flier on hoping he gets right. Its only a 6th round pick for crying out loud!!!! If he bombs and nevers gets back then so what? We didn't lose anything!!!

Keiland Williams has plenty of power and vision to run between the tackles. He does it a lot more than you think. He's just not asked to do it very often because they have had Hester and Scott filling that role. He has the ability to go inside, but they use him more on screens, dump offs and outside runs because he's the guy who has the play making ability to do so, not Scott or Hester.

wonderbredd24
10-01-2009, 10:43 AM
Weatherspoon is a far greater fit in the 34 defense than D'Qwell Jackson. Everyone every year comes up with this crazy a$$ reasons why so and so wouldn't fit in a 34 defense. Its a bunch of hog wash. Watch the man play some games and you'd see he's everything D'Qwell Jackson never was, and everything that Bart Scott is today. He's fast, he's physical and he's a sure tackler. He needs work on shedding blocks, but so does Kindle, Norwood, Spikes, McClain, Johnson, and Lee. Every college linebacker for the most part is terrible at shedding blocks because they simply don't typically need to do so. Weatherspoon has the strenght and explosiveness to be able to do it once he's coached to do it.

If he needs to improve at shedding blocks, he's not Bart Scott because both Bart Scott and David Harris can shed blocks for the Jets. That's the ONLY thing we need... a guy who can shed blocks, fight through trash, and lay the wood to put next to D'Qwell Jackson. We do not need a sideline to sideline guy, although Aaron Curry would have been the total package and Witherspoon is not Aaron Curry.

wonderbredd24
10-01-2009, 10:49 AM
Tyson Alualu is going to have a better career as a 34 DE so why in God's name would we draft Gerald McCoy with the 4th overall pick when we can get a much better player for less money and use the higher pick on and impact player. 34 DEs don't need to be impact players. With Alualu we're getting out Aaron Smith type who quietly going to be one of the best in the game and get no media love because his tackles numbers and sacks will be low to mediocre at best.

Ok, so Alualu is going to have a better career than Gerald McCoy? Really? Aaron Smith is an impact player. Richard Seymour was an impact player. Why wouldn't we want an impact player on the defensive line? And if not McCoy, grab Eric Berry.

Like I said, I like Alualu but now you're just getting nuts

Walter Thurmond's knee is the hole reason he falls to the 6th round where we can take a chance. If it wasn't for him destroying his knee he was going to be a mid-late 1st round pick. He has extreme talent when right and we're just taking a flier on hoping he gets right. Its only a 6th round pick for crying out loud!!!! If he bombs and nevers gets back then so what? We didn't lose anything!!!

Maybe it is worth a shot, but look at our 6th round picks this year. We got James Davis and Coye Francies. Maybe we can someone else in the 6th round with some promise or at least a contributor on special teams.

Also, if I was going to throw a pick at an injured player, I'd love to see them grab Stafon Johnson. He's a guy who gets it done in between the tackles and finds the end zone.

Keiland Williams has plenty of power and vision to run between the tackles. He does it a lot more than you think. He's just not asked to do it very often because they have had Hester and Scott filling that role. He has the ability to go inside, but they use him more on screens, dump offs and outside runs because he's the guy who has the play making ability to do so, not Scott or Hester.

That's the point. I'd rather have Charles Scott.

Smoke14
10-01-2009, 11:00 AM
Bart Scott could shed blocks coming into the league, Ray Lewis still can't shed blocks he just runs around his wall of DLineman. He's complained every game when he didn't have his huge DTs in front of him.

Alualu will have a better career as a 34 DE than McCoy WTF don't you get about that? McCoy is a 43 UT not a 34 DE. He's a gap shooting penetrator...not a gap controling run stopper. Get a clue.

Aaron Smith is not a game changer. He controls the Olineman so that his linebackers can dominate the game something McCoy will never do.

So you'd rather have another slow as running back like Jamal Lewis who can't get to the holes before they close? Awesome. You must be in line for Offensive Cordinator for the Cleveland Browns huh? 2 yards and a cloud of dust Awesome. WTF don't you get about Keiland Williams CAN run between the tackles? He just doesn't have to because they have someone else for the job. He has the play making ability to go outside, so why would they use him inside on every carry? Dumb just a dumb move...a Cleveland OC type of game plan. LSU uses him inside, outside and in the passing game because he can do all three.

Buh-Bye and have a great year of failed attempts at scouting this years talent. I'm out.

Iamcanadian
10-02-2009, 02:05 PM
Sanchez would be awful on this team.

The transitive property does not work here

Stafford inherited a team that lost 16 games with a rotten OL and the 2nd worst defense in the history of pro football but he is already making Detroit a far better team than last year and Sanchez is looking better than him, so to say Sanchez wouldn't help this team toward success seems way off base to me.
However you may be right that with Lerner doing the hiring, maybe nobody can save this sinking ship.

wonderbredd24
10-02-2009, 02:12 PM
Stafford inherited a team that lost 16 games with a rotten OL and the 2nd worst defense in the history of pro football but he is already making Detroit a far better team than last year and Sanchez is looking better than him, so to say Sanchez wouldn't help this team toward success seems way off base to me.
However you may be right that with Lerner doing the hiring, maybe nobody can save this sinking ship.

The offensive line was horrible last year. So what changed? Kevin Smith had an absurd number of carries his last year of school and then the workout process leading up to the draft, so I expected him to be pretty worthless his rookie year. Now, he's refreshed and a good running back. That undoubtedly helps an offensive line look better as does bringing in Pettigrew who is a fantastic blocker. And having an effective running game helps the quarterback.

That's the difference if you ask me. Oh, and having Calvin Johnson does not hurt either.

If the Browns can find a good right tackle and a feature back, this offense looks completely different to me to where Derek might look like he did at times in '07.

My concern with Brady Quinn is that he is looking at his linemen. That's a disease he's not going to get over getting the **** kicked out of him all year, so they might as well keep going with Derek Anderson.

If they deem Quinn fixable, they should try that, because Quinn really does get it pre-snap. He makes good reads and audibles in a way Derek will never be able to do.

So I think the Browns should fix the right side of the line, establish a running game and find their offensive identity before they go grab another top pick quarterback. In the meantime, they may find one on the current roster... failing that, bring in a free agent for the time being and next year or the year after, go grab a franchise quarterback.

Iamcanadian
10-03-2009, 03:56 AM
The offensive line was horrible last year. So what changed? Kevin Smith had an absurd number of carries his last year of school and then the workout process leading up to the draft, so I expected him to be pretty worthless his rookie year. Now, he's refreshed and a good running back. That undoubtedly helps an offensive line look better as does bringing in Pettigrew who is a fantastic blocker. And having an effective running game helps the quarterback.

Smith gained a 1000 yds as a rookie so I wouldn't call him worthless his rookie year. What changed was the coaching staff and Stafford.

That's the difference if you ask me. Oh, and having Calvin Johnson does not hurt either.

If the Browns can find a good right tackle and a feature back, this offense looks completely different to me to where Derek might look like he did at times in '07.

My concern with Brady Quinn is that he is looking at his linemen. That's a disease he's not going to get over getting the **** kicked out of him all year, so they might as well keep going with Derek Anderson.

If they deem Quinn fixable, they should try that, because Quinn really does get it pre-snap. He makes good reads and audibles in a way Derek will never be able to do.

Quinn doesn't have it and is showing no signs of improving and it is already his 3rd year in the league. He's a flop and what you see is what he is, maybe a 2nd string NFL QB and nothing more.

So I think the Browns should fix the right side of the line, establish a running game and find their offensive identity before they go grab another top pick quarterback. In the meantime, they may find one on the current roster... failing that, bring in a free agent for the time being and next year or the year after, go grab a franchise quarterback.

The trouble with this philosophy is you never know when you will get another shot at a franchise QB so passing on one isn't likely to occur. RT and RB can be found past round 1. If a franchise QB is available in this year's draft(we don't know at this point if there will be one), you don't pass on him under any circumstances.
Three franchises in the last 2 years who finished as a bottom 5 teams drafted QB's, 2 of them are now serious SB contenders and Stafford has already established himself as an improvement over what Detroit was last year. Heck, Peyton was drafted by a terrible team at the time but within 2 years the Colts were a serious SB contender.
Building a team your way never works because if you improve the team too much before looking for a franchise QB, they will rise to be a middle of the pack drafting team and these teams rarely ever get a shot at drafting a franchise QB. You have to strike while you are in a position to get that QB or your team may never get another shot. From what I have seen of Sanchez, he may be the next coming of Peyton, he has looked that good. We may regret passing on him for the next decade while the Jets go on to win a couple of Super Bowls.

wonderbredd24
10-03-2009, 09:19 AM
The trouble with this philosophy is you never know when you will get another shot at a franchise QB so passing on one isn't likely to occur. RT and RB can be found past round 1. If a franchise QB is available in this year's draft(we don't know at this point if there will be one), you don't pass on him under any circumstances.
Three franchises in the last 2 years who finished as a bottom 5 teams drafted QB's, 2 of them are now serious SB contenders and Stafford has already established himself as an improvement over what Detroit was last year. Heck, Peyton was drafted by a terrible team at the time but within 2 years the Colts were a serious SB contender.
Building a team your way never works because if you improve the team too much before looking for a franchise QB, they will rise to be a middle of the pack drafting team and these teams rarely ever get a shot at drafting a franchise QB. You have to strike while you are in a position to get that QB or your team may never get another shot. From what I have seen of Sanchez, he may be the next coming of Peyton, he has looked that good. We may regret passing on him for the next decade while the Jets go on to win a couple of Super Bowls.

It never works? The Pittsburgh Steelers and Baltimore Ravens might disagree with you. Both teams had great defenses and ready made offenses before they went out and got their franchise quarterbacks. Pittsburgh has 2 rings and Baltimore had a shot last year and looks like the front runner this year. The Jets went "my way". They have a great defense, a great OLine, and a good running game; then they went out and got a QB.

If the Browns pick another 1st round quarterback next year, it will be the 3rd in 11 years and 2nd in 4. Maybe just maybe they should go a different route than just throwing quarterbacks at the problem.

I wonder how many of the people advocating taking a quarterback next year were also advocating taking Brady Quinn over Joe Thomas. How colossal a mistake would that have been? Eric Berry and Gerald McCoy are Aaron Curry good. The Browns need talent more than anything else and should go with the best player available in round 1.

cribbsjosh
10-03-2009, 03:16 PM
James Davis out for the season, IR. Chris Jennings signed, placed on roster according to teams website. :confused: Wow when it rains it pours

Iamcanadian
10-04-2009, 01:41 AM
It never works? The Pittsburgh Steelers and Baltimore Ravens might disagree with you. Both teams had great defenses and ready made offenses before they went out and got their franchise quarterbacks. Pittsburgh has 2 rings and Baltimore had a shot last year and looks like the front runner this year. The Jets went "my way". They have a great defense, a great OLine, and a good running game; then they went out and got a QB.

Pittsburgh was a weak team before they got Roethlisberger and Baltimore just had Ogden retire so their offense was hardly set. Roethlisberger has never had much of an OL to work with and Baltimore's was pitiful. Atlanta's OL was built to suit Vick's escapability and was weak. The Jets went out and signed Favre and weren't in a position to draft a franchise QB they liked. You have to be in a position to draft a franchise QB, they don't come along everyday. Peyton went to a terrible team and even with him they went 3-13 his 1st year.

If the Browns pick another 1st round quarterback next year, it will be the 3rd in 11 years and 2nd in 4. Maybe just maybe they should go a different route than just throwing quarterbacks at the problem.

The Colts drafted Jeff George but it didn't stop them from drafting Peyton. San Diego drafted Leaf but it didn't stop them from drafting Rivers. Cincy drafted Akili Smith but it didn't stop them from drafting Palmer. You just have to keep going till you get it right. Of course you have to be in a draft position to get one if one is available. Do you know how many QB's Detroit has drafted #1 in the last 10 years??? Harrington flopped for them but they still kept at it with Stafford. NFL GM's aren't fools, they continue to draft QB's because if you don't have a franchise QB, you are never going to be a consistent contender for the SB.
What is sad is that Mangini didn't have the ability to see through Sanchez's inexperience and tell what his potential was???

I wonder how many of the people advocating taking a quarterback next year were also advocating taking Brady Quinn over Joe Thomas. How colossal a mistake would that have been? Eric Berry and Gerald McCoy are Aaron Curry good. The Browns need talent more than anything else and should go with the best player available in round 1.

Scouts and GM's had already decided that Quinn wasn't a top prospect and that is why he fell on draft day, fans aren't judges of talent. Again I am only advocating drafting a QB if the organization thinks he is a top talent, I'm not advocating drafting any QB, he has to have real franchise potential otherwise I agree that you pass and take a higher talent. All I'm saying is you don't pass on a top talent QB if he is available when it is you time to pick, it may be years before you have another opportunity to draft one.

wonderbredd24
10-04-2009, 09:53 AM
Pittsburgh was weak? They've been a perrenial playoff contender for how long? When they drafted Roethlisberger, they had Jeff Hartings at center and the best guard in all of football in Alan Faneca as part of a great offensive line protecting Roethlisberger and powering a running game, which is what carried that offense.

Baltimore lost Ogden and replaced him with Jared Gaither who has been a good left tackle for the Ravens. Their offensive line has never been bad.

The Jets weren't in position to get a franchise quarterback, so they traded up to get one. What's preventing the Browns from doing the same thing?

When the Colts drafted Peyton Manning, they had Marvin Harrison, Marshall Faulk, and Tarik Glenn as part of a good offensive line to put Manning in a fantastic position to succeed.

Phillip Rivers came to a team with LaDainian Tomlinson powering their offense

Carson Palmer is a great quarterback for a team who has struggled to protect him and his career has not been what it should have been as a result.

The Cleveland Browns desperately need an infusion of talent... not another quarterback put in position to fail. Finish building the offensive line and establish a running game, so they can put a quarterback in the best position to succeed. And with their first pick, they need to go BPA which is either gonna be Berry or McCoy

Iamcanadian
10-05-2009, 08:02 AM
Pittsburgh was weak? They've been a perrenial playoff contender for how long? When they drafted Roethlisberger, they had Jeff Hartings at center and the best guard in all of football in Alan Faneca as part of a great offensive line protecting Roethlisberger and powering a running game, which is what carried that offense.

Baltimore lost Ogden and replaced him with Jared Gaither who has been a good left tackle for the Ravens. Their offensive line has never been bad.

The Jets weren't in position to get a franchise quarterback, so they traded up to get one. What's preventing the Browns from doing the same thing?

When the Colts drafted Peyton Manning, they had Marvin Harrison, Marshall Faulk, and Tarik Glenn as part of a good offensive line to put Manning in a fantastic position to succeed.

Phillip Rivers came to a team with LaDainian Tomlinson powering their offense

Carson Palmer is a great quarterback for a team who has struggled to protect him and his career has not been what it should have been as a result.

The Cleveland Browns desperately need an infusion of talent... not another quarterback put in position to fail. Finish building the offensive line and establish a running game, so they can put a quarterback in the best position to succeed. And with their first pick, they need to go BPA which is either gonna be Berry or McCoy

Well, all I can say is that NFL GM's disagree with you, if they lack a QB and a solid prospect is available, they take them without hesitation. They know they can fill in around them but without a QB, the team is going no where. It is generally about 3 years on average before a QB reaches his peak and every year you fail to fill the position is another 3 years before the team will be a playoff contender.
If we have the 1st pick you suggest we draft McCoy or Berry and pay them close to 40 million dollars in guaranteed money. However if you are paying a 3-4 DE or a Safety that kind of money, your teams salary structure is totally out of whack in the cap era and you are not going to be able to pay a QB top dollars, so if one comes along you may have to pass on him to keep your teams salary cap structure in line. I guarantee you if we draft top 3, we won't be drafting either of these guys at #1, it will be an OLB, RB or a QB if we are interested in building a winner and want to follow the way the top teams in the NFL are built.

wonderbredd24
10-05-2009, 09:29 AM
NFL GMs disagree with me... except the ones that don't and built exactly the way I'm talking about including the Jets with Mark Sanchez

j05son
10-05-2009, 01:39 PM
The golden rule is that if you don't have a franchise QB then you need to beg, borrow and steal to get one. While I do believe this, we as a team are in an awkward position. We have 2 QB's that are basically question marks and the talent differential is sub-par at best. When you miss on a top 5 pick, it sets you back for years financially and in terms of talent. We desperately need to figure the QB position out, but first we need to see if either Quinn or Anderson can be the answer before we take the gamble and draft and commit to a new guy once again. Can you honestly say that Sanchez would have the success in Cleveland NOW that he is having in New York? Can you honestly say there is little to no talent differential between the two teams? While Sanchez looks like the second coming of Joe Namath in New York he would most likely look like the second coming of Tim Couch in Cleveland.

For IAC, I see your argument about how guys like Ryan and Sanchez are turning around franchises, but expand the time table from 2 to 5 years (top 5 picks like you stated):

2005- San Fran - Alex Smith. 2nd on the depth chart, and being labeled a bust by most.
2006- Tennessee - Vince Young. 2nd on the depth chart behind Collins who is playing horrendously.
2007- Oakland - Jamarcus Russell. Looks absolutely horrible. A trademark Al Davis pick.
2008- Atlanta - Matt Ryan. Atlanta hit a home run with the draft and adding some key free agents to some existing pieces.
2009- Detroit - Matt Stafford. Jury still out on a QB taking over a 0-16 team.
2009- New York - Mark Sanchez. Looks like the next Namath in his first three games and then proved to be a rookie in the most recent. New York was only missing one piece to the puzzle and went after that 1 piece.

That's only 5 years, go back 10 total and you can add Franchise QB's in Palmer, Manning and Rivers and busts in Vick, Carr and Harrington. I understand your argument is that you can't pass on top tier QB talent but it's still a crapshoot. It hurts bad when you whiff on a top 5 pick, but it's devastating to the franchise to do it with a QB. Especially if Quinn or Anderson leave and go on to have success with another franchise. You need to make sure the cupboard is empty before pulling the trigger on a QB in the top 5.

To your write off of Quinn and your Peyton Manning comparison. Peyton looked like absolute garbage his first year and improved GREATLY his second. Not only did Manning start every game for those first two years, he took EVERY. SINGLE. SNAP. Peyton has stated he learned more in forth quarter blow outs in his rookie year then in any other point of the game that's he's played. Then you have Quinn who has looked horrendous in just six starts. He's always had a QB shuffle, different offensive coordinators, different schemes/terminology/systems, and a substantial downgrade in talent on the all-around team. Not all QB's start off hot, and for you to even mention Peyton as an example when the amount of experience the two QB's have had in their first two years is vastly different is ludicrous at best!

Scouts and GM's knew Quinn would struggle in the NFL? That's your argument on why he fell? It had nothing to do with supply and demand? There weren't multiple teams attempting to trade up to grab Quinn most notably the RatBirds with their drafting guru Ozzie Newsome? There wasn't another highly touted QB that fell much further than anticipated due to the same reasoning and is looking like an absolute stud in Green Bay?

I agree with Wonderbredd that we shouldn't be pulling the trigger on a QB now. We HAVE to determine if Anderson or Quinn can truly be that guy or not. We HAVE to start adding talent to this team and then keep the talent we have.

Getting off the note of Quarterbacks.

Jamal Lewis getting hurt was one of the best things to happen as it allows us to see a lot more of Harrison. To bad Davis is already done for the year.

Mo Mass looked GREEEAT. I want to see what he can do against Buffalo. I want to see what this offense can do with Edwards getting less doubles and hopefully Mo Mass can draw some of that attention away from Edwards. I do wish Robo would get some more PT (behind Mo Mass obviously) to see what we're working with for the future.

Give me more Heiden and less Royal please.

Mack is looking better and better IMO. However the right side of the offensive line definitely needs work. You would think with their god given talent of letting defenders by them they could set up a screen but they can't even do that.

I want a more aggressive defense that won't miss so many tackles. I'm tired of the defense not getting themselves off the field. It'll be 3rd and long and we will only pressure with three guys. I want attack, aggression and no more missed tackles! Also Mike Furry at FS was interesting. I heard Cribbs' name mentioned back there in TC...

wonderbredd24
10-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Getting off the note of Quarterbacks.

Jamal Lewis getting hurt was one of the best things to happen as it allows us to see a lot more of Harrison. To bad Davis is already done for the year.

Mo Mass looked GREEEAT. I want to see what he can do against Buffalo. I want to see what this offense can do with Edwards getting less doubles and hopefully Mo Mass can draw some of that attention away from Edwards. I do wish Robo would get some more PT (behind Mo Mass obviously) to see what we're working with for the future.

Give me more Heiden and less Royal please.

Mack is looking better and better IMO. However the right side of the offensive line definitely needs work. You would think with their god given talent of letting defenders by them they could set up a screen but they can't even do that.

I want a more aggressive defense that won't miss so many tackles. I'm tired of the defense not getting themselves off the field. It'll be 3rd and long and we will only pressure with three guys. I want attack, aggression and no more missed tackles! Also Mike Furry at FS was interesting. I heard Cribbs' name mentioned back there in TC...

It's certainly nice to see a running game, but as good as Harrison has looked, I think it's imperative the Browns get a bigger runner who can get it done in between the tackles. Even if James Davis was healthy, I doubt that would change my mind. My favorite back that fits that mold is Ryan Matthews, a junior from Fresno State, but I also kind of like Toby Gerhart.

If Robiskie can get some PT, I envision him as a Joe Jurevicious type, which is exactly what we need to complement what we already have.

The right side of the line infuriates me, but that could be fixed in the draft... in particular, I love Ciron Black out of LSU potentially at our pick in round 2. He gives us size, power, and a sufficient pass blocker.

I think our defense would look so much better with Eric Berry on it... he's the guy I want for our 1st round pick as it stands right now. He's the total package and he complements what Rob Ryan wants to do.

Babylon
10-05-2009, 04:47 PM
What is up with Braylon Edwards punching some 130 lb friend of Lebron James? On a somewhat differant subject, football player or not i dont think i'd want Lebron pissed at me.

wonderbredd24
10-05-2009, 04:56 PM
What is up with Braylon Edwards punching some 130 lb friend of Lebron James? On a somewhat differant subject, football player or not i dont think i'd want Lebron pissed at me.

I think this is the result of a guy who had a bad game (0 catches) and took that frustration out on this friend of LeBron.

It's just stupid.

Iamcanadian
10-07-2009, 12:27 AM
The golden rule is that if you don't have a franchise QB then you need to beg, borrow and steal to get one. While I do believe this, we as a team are in an awkward position. We have 2 QB's that are basically question marks and the talent differential is sub-par at best. When you miss on a top 5 pick, it sets you back for years financially and in terms of talent. We desperately need to figure the QB position out, but first we need to see if either Quinn or Anderson can be the answer before we take the gamble and draft and commit to a new guy once again. Can you honestly say that Sanchez would have the success in Cleveland NOW that he is having in New York? Can you honestly say there is little to no talent differential between the two teams? While Sanchez looks like the second coming of Joe Namath in New York he would most likely look like the second coming of Tim Couch in Cleveland.

For IAC, I see your argument about how guys like Ryan and Sanchez are turning around franchises, but expand the time table from 2 to 5 years (top 5 picks like you stated):

2005- San Fran - Alex Smith. 2nd on the depth chart, and being labeled a bust by most.
2006- Tennessee - Vince Young. 2nd on the depth chart behind Collins who is playing horrendously.
2007- Oakland - Jamarcus Russell. Looks absolutely horrible. A trademark Al Davis pick.
2008- Atlanta - Matt Ryan. Atlanta hit a home run with the draft and adding some key free agents to some existing pieces.
2009- Detroit - Matt Stafford. Jury still out on a QB taking over a 0-16 team.
2009- New York - Mark Sanchez. Looks like the next Namath in his first three games and then proved to be a rookie in the most recent. New York was only missing one piece to the puzzle and went after that 1 piece.

That's only 5 years, go back 10 total and you can add Franchise QB's in Palmer, Manning and Rivers and busts in Vick, Carr and Harrington. I understand your argument is that you can't pass on top tier QB talent but it's still a crapshoot. It hurts bad when you whiff on a top 5 pick, but it's devastating to the franchise to do it with a QB. Especially if Quinn or Anderson leave and go on to have success with another franchise. You need to make sure the cupboard is empty before pulling the trigger on a QB in the top 5.

To your write off of Quinn and your Peyton Manning comparison. Peyton looked like absolute garbage his first year and improved GREATLY his second. Not only did Manning start every game for those first two years, he took EVERY. SINGLE. SNAP. Peyton has stated he learned more in forth quarter blow outs in his rookie year then in any other point of the game that's he's played. Then you have Quinn who has looked horrendous in just six starts. He's always had a QB shuffle, different offensive coordinators, different schemes/terminology/systems, and a substantial downgrade in talent on the all-around team. Not all QB's start off hot, and for you to even mention Peyton as an example when the amount of experience the two QB's have had in their first two years is vastly different is ludicrous at best!

Scouts and GM's knew Quinn would struggle in the NFL? That's your argument on why he fell? It had nothing to do with supply and demand? There weren't multiple teams attempting to trade up to grab Quinn most notably the RatBirds with their drafting guru Ozzie Newsome? There wasn't another highly touted QB that fell much further than anticipated due to the same reasoning and is looking like an absolute stud in Green Bay?

I agree with Wonderbredd that we shouldn't be pulling the trigger on a QB now. We HAVE to determine if Anderson or Quinn can truly be that guy or not. We HAVE to start adding talent to this team and then keep the talent we have.

Getting off the note of Quarterbacks.

Jamal Lewis getting hurt was one of the best things to happen as it allows us to see a lot more of Harrison. To bad Davis is already done for the year.

Mo Mass looked GREEEAT. I want to see what he can do against Buffalo. I want to see what this offense can do with Edwards getting less doubles and hopefully Mo Mass can draw some of that attention away from Edwards. I do wish Robo would get some more PT (behind Mo Mass obviously) to see what we're working with for the future.

Give me more Heiden and less Royal please.

Mack is looking better and better IMO. However the right side of the offensive line definitely needs work. You would think with their god given talent of letting defenders by them they could set up a screen but they can't even do that.

I want a more aggressive defense that won't miss so many tackles. I'm tired of the defense not getting themselves off the field. It'll be 3rd and long and we will only pressure with three guys. I want attack, aggression and no more missed tackles! Also Mike Furry at FS was interesting. I heard Cribbs' name mentioned back there in TC...

If you whiff on a QB as a high 1st rounder, you simply keep going till you get it right. San Diego drafted Leaf but it didn't stop them from drafting Rivers, Indy drafted Jeff George but the grabbed Peyton as soon as they could. Detroit drafted numerous QB's with high picks but they kept going till they got Stafford. Baltimore drafted Boller but it didn't stop them from drafting Flacco, Atlanta replaced Vick with Ryan etc. etc. etc. and on and on.
None of these GM's were that bothered by their failures at getting a franchise QB. They all just kept going till they got it right because they all realize you cannot win much in the NFL without that franchise QB. Close to 50% of the starting QB's in the NFL were 1st rounders.
As for Quinn, he is a flop end of story. He just doesn't have it. He has had 3 season of learning in the NFL and players like Palmer sat but were solid in his
2nd year with no prior starts or Rodgers who sat 3 seasons but came out strong with no starts under his belt either. You can argue all you want about Quinn not having his chance but he only has 6 starts because his HC's and OC's didn't see starting material in him. There is always tremendous pressure on an organization to start a 1st round pick especially if the team hasn't got a solid NFL starting QB, so if they ride the bench, there has to be real doubt about their ability and no amount of wishful thinking will chance the facts that Quinn is unable to win the starting job, hence he is a bust.
Maybe we won't get a shot at a true franchise QB in the next draft, in that case you draft another position but if one is there staring you in the face, you draft him or watch another team draft him and get all the benefit. We had a real shot at Sanchez who looks like he will be a franchise QB for the next decade and we passed. The Jets may now go on to win a # of SB's while we continue to be a bottom feeder possibly for the next decade and you want us to continue to pass on any QB who has that potential??? Hopefully Mangini learned his lesson and is smart enough to change his thinking.

Brown Leader
10-07-2009, 07:59 PM
I think the difference is we have a young QB who made the Pro Bowl then had a bad year. If DA plays more or less like he did last Sunday I don't see us taking a QB. If he yucks it up it's a QB all the way.

The problem with the offense and the defense is the running game-anything that improves that is what we should look at after this season.

Jets running the ball more than 70% of the time and they're defense is what's winning them games. Sanchez may grow to be the focal point but defense and a running game is what gets u into the post season unless you truly have an elite QB.

wonderbredd24
10-11-2009, 03:46 PM
****** Kamerion Wimbley got his 4th sack today and could have had a hat trick today.

Rob S
10-11-2009, 06:44 PM
Just though you guys would like to know that this weekend I stayed at the Browns team hotel and got to see a lot of the guys. It was pretty cool. Shaun Rodgers is not human.

j05son
10-11-2009, 06:46 PM
Just though you guys would like to know that this weekend I stayed at the Browns team hotel and got to see a lot of the guys. It was pretty cool. Shaun Rodgers is not human.

Awesome man. =]

I remember seeing Teddy Washington a few years ago. Biggest guy I've ever seen.

Rob S
10-11-2009, 06:52 PM
Dude, it is absolutely indescribable how big some of these guys are. Just ridiculous. And to imagine a lot of them run sub 5 sec forties and are agile as hell..........

Mr. Goosemahn
10-11-2009, 08:05 PM
Congrats on the win guys, not the prettiest of games, but a win is a win.

And as for the whole QB issue, I agree with those that say that you need a good team before you get the franchise QB. You need to have either a good defense, or great offensive weapons, or something, because those teams that don't have anything else rarely have young QB's that succeed.

As for the Roethlisberger issue, he went into a team that was not depending on him to succeed. He wasn't even going to play his rookie season, but injuries forced him to. When he went in he had a pro-bowl LT, pro-bowl LG, pro-bowl C, first round RG, future Superbowl WR in Hines Ward, future pro-bowl WR Plaxico Burress, WR Antwaan Randle El, and future hall-of-famer Jerome Bettis. On the defense was Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, James Farrior, Troy Polamalu, Chris Hope, and Joey Porter. He went in and had success due to the talent surrounding him. He gradually developed into the great QB he is today, but he definitely had help. After drafting him they kept rebuilding around him. The first round pick next year was Heath Miller. A year after that it was Santonio Holmes. Two years after that it was Rashard Mendenhall. He now has a promising young back, two Superbowl MVP WR's, the most complete TE in the NFL, a rookie scorcher in Mike Wallace who proved what he can do today, an improved O-Line from last year, and a defense that was ranked #1 last year. It's his team now.

Those teams that succeeded with their young franchise QB's are teams that build before the QB's arrive, and continue building around them right after they arrive. Ryan arrived and had dangerous offensive weapons in Turner and WHite and they keep upgrading, now having Gonzo. JaMarcus arrived into a team in shambles and look at him now. Quinn arrived into a struggling team and now lost his #1 TE and #1 WR. Sanchez arrived into a team with a top-caliber defense, a legit running game, and solid WR's. The defense can make up for his mistakes, as long as they're not many. And if a rookie isn't asked to do too much, then the mistakes will decrease.

Overall, the young QB's who go into solid teams develop faster and ultimately wind up being better than those who don't. Sure, there are exceptions, but that is generally the case.

As for the Browns, I'd say they focus on improving their defense first and then the offense. Eric Berry would be a fantastic way to start, followed by a top-notch LB via free agency or draft.

Brown Leader
10-12-2009, 12:02 PM
****** Kamerion Wimbley got his 4th sack today and could have had a hat trick today.

lol I stand corrected, though it was Buffalo...

but his best production since a rookie-pleasantly surprised.

Iamcanadian
10-12-2009, 02:22 PM
Congrats on the win guys, not the prettiest of games, but a win is a win.

And as for the whole QB issue, I agree with those that say that you need a good team before you get the franchise QB. You need to have either a good defense, or great offensive weapons, or something, because those teams that don't have anything else rarely have young QB's that succeed.

As for the Roethlisberger issue, he went into a team that was not depending on him to succeed. He wasn't even going to play his rookie season, but injuries forced him to. When he went in he had a pro-bowl LT, pro-bowl LG, pro-bowl C, first round RG, future Superbowl WR in Hines Ward, future pro-bowl WR Plaxico Burress, WR Antwaan Randle El, and future hall-of-famer Jerome Bettis. On the defense was Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, James Farrior, Troy Polamalu, Chris Hope, and Joey Porter. He went in and had success due to the talent surrounding him. He gradually developed into the great QB he is today, but he definitely had help. After drafting him they kept rebuilding around him. The first round pick next year was Heath Miller. A year after that it was Santonio Holmes. Two years after that it was Rashard Mendenhall. He now has a promising young back, two Superbowl MVP WR's, the most complete TE in the NFL, a rookie scorcher in Mike Wallace who proved what he can do today, an improved O-Line from last year, and a defense that was ranked #1 last year. It's his team now.

Those teams that succeeded with their young franchise QB's are teams that build before the QB's arrive, and continue building around them right after they arrive. Ryan arrived and had dangerous offensive weapons in Turner and WHite and they keep upgrading, now having Gonzo. JaMarcus arrived into a team in shambles and look at him now. Quinn arrived into a struggling team and now lost his #1 TE and #1 WR. Sanchez arrived into a team with a top-caliber defense, a legit running game, and solid WR's. The defense can make up for his mistakes, as long as they're not many. And if a rookie isn't asked to do too much, then the mistakes will decrease.

Overall, the young QB's who go into solid teams develop faster and ultimately wind up being better than those who don't. Sure, there are exceptions, but that is generally the case.

As for the Browns, I'd say they focus on improving their defense first and then the offense. Eric Berry would be a fantastic way to start, followed by a top-notch LB via free agency or draft.


This is rubbish based on no factual evidence at all. Anybody who uses Russell a an example of a QB who failed because the team around him had no talent is ridiculous. Oakland is the dead zone of pro football. Al Davis has turned this once proud franchise into a killing zone for failure. Russell has no chance to develop there as most of the team has already quite on their HC and the team. That franchise is in complete shambles and it is a waste of time using it as any kind of example.
QB's like Aikman and Peyton went to losing teams who finished last because the team was talentless. They both suffered through 1-15 and 3-13 rookie years but then through their talent turned the team into a contender, so it is not generally the case that QB's drafted by weak teams are less likely to succeed. Ryan and Flacco didn't come to finished teams either and certainly Stafford came to the worst team in football history but they all produced and look to have bright futures.
This team must find a franchise QB, Mangini flopped in giving away Sanchez and showed in doing so that he is not a good judge of prospects and unable to project their talent level down the road like the best GM's can. He blew it and he is paying the piper.
Quinn and Anderson are not now nor ever will be solid NFL QB's and this team will drift along settling for 2-5 win seasons until the QB position is solved. I'm not saying take just anybody but if your scouts are saying that so and so is a top flight QB prospect who has a real shot at being a franchise QB, then you grab him and laugh all the way to the bank.

wonderbredd24
10-12-2009, 02:38 PM
You can keep ignoring the facts to try to prove your point, but the Colts, Ravens, Steelers, and Falcons were hardly talentless. I've broken down EVERY team to show you they had talent.

Now a fan of another team is supporting my point and you still choose to ignore it.

It's just silly at this point

Iamcanadian
10-13-2009, 11:46 AM
You can keep ignoring the facts to try to prove your point, but the Colts, Ravens, Steelers, and Falcons were hardly talentless. I've broken down EVERY team to show you they had talent.

Now a fan of another team is supporting my point and you still choose to ignore it.

It's just silly at this point

The argument is garbage. We have talent also, a very solid LT and LG, and defense that has some potential. The Colts don't have a NFL caliber LT and their defense has never been something to write home about but Peyton takes them to victory after victory. Nobody mistook Baltimore's offense for much till Flacco came on board. They could barely score at all till they solved their QB position.The Falcons built their OL to suit Vick. They gambled that Vick's escapability would make up for the weakness in their OL and when they drafted Ryan, they realized their OL needed a lot of work and drafted a LT late in round 1 in the same draft. Pittsburgh is obviously a very talented team but it isn't perfect and wasn't the powerhouse they are recently till they drafted Roethlisberger.
The fact is that it is not my opinion that you draft a franchise QB when you have the chance and don't wait till all the pieces are in place, it is the way GM draft all the time. They all grab a franchise QB if one falls to them in the draft and they are weak at that position. They DON"T wait till their team is solid, they grab the QB and build around him. Go and look at the top 5 picks in the draft going back 20 years, in particular, the #1 overall pick. Overwhelming it is a QB and don't tell ever team drafting #1 overall is a solid team. You argument holds no water because NFL GM's don't follow it, they not only draft a potential franchise QB at #1 overall, they repeat the process if that QB is a flop. They just keep on going till they get it right.
If it was just my opinion that you grab a franchise QB when one is available and you need one, you argument might hold water, but it is the overwhelming opinion of GM's that this is the way to go, so your argument and the other fan's argument does not hold up to any scrutiny and while it is your opinion, it simply isn't followed by the mass majority of NFL GM's and I suggest the GM's are right and you are wrong. If you want to argue against what GM's overwelming do, that is your right but until the vast majority agree with you, I will follow their opinion and not yours.

wonderbredd24
10-13-2009, 12:10 PM
Everyone who has commented on this has agreed with me. You just choose to ignore it.

Iamcanadian
10-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Everyone who has commented on this has agreed with me. You just choose to ignore it.

Unfortunately for you, NFL GM's don't agree with your idea. The golden rule among NFL GM's is that you never pass on a franchise type QB if one is available when you pick and you need one. Scott agrees with me that this is what pro GM's do and fans who think a pro GM will pass on a franchise QB if the team needs one and wait till the team is built up elsewhere before drafting one are simply out of touch with how GM's think.
I've heard your argument many times before but by far and large if you examine the #1 overall pick going back at least 20 years, you will find that pro GM's overwhelmingly draft QB's with that pick almost without exception and if your arguing that teams drafting #1 overall are all strong with no other weaknesses then I would question your findings and ask for examples. It is you who are choosing to ignore the facts.

Here's the list for the last dozen years:

2009 QB
2008 LT Miami passed on Ryan and Atlanta is laughing all the way to the bank as Parcells perfers veteran QB's.
2007 QB
2006 M. Williams, as not everybody was sold on VY.
2005 QB
2004 QB
2003 QB
2002 QB
2001 QB
2000 DE We drafted Couch in 1999 and didn't need to draft another QB
1999 QB
1998 QB

So over the last dozen years, a QB was taken 1st overall 9 times or 75% of the time and you have to remember that a top franchise QB isn't available in every draft. Also the top drafting team isn't always in need of a young franchise type QB. The golden rule seems to me, to be proven by these stats.

wonderbredd24
10-16-2009, 12:35 PM
Half of the QBs taken 1st overall were busts largely because they were put in horrible situations a la Cleveland, Houston, and San Francisco

QB's are taken 1st overall for many reasons. There's certainly a premium put on the position, but they in many ways are forced into the pick by ownership, the fan base, and the money involved.

Just because teams take a QB first overall doesn't mean it's a good idea and as we have seen in this thread, it often results in failure.

It's also interesting that there are 2 other threads discussing this very issue and the vast majority of people think the Browns and teams like the Browns need to improve the supporting cast before throwing another QB into the mix.

And Mario Williams is one of the best DEnds in football and Jake Long is doing a nice job in Miami

The Browns had a chance to take a QB in 2007 3rd overall and thank God they did not otherwise we'd miss out on Joe Thomas in favor of Brady Quinn and we'd be in a bigger mess than we are currently in.

Eric Berry, Ndamukong Suh, and Gerald McCoy are elite talents. Passing on them for a marginal QB class would be stupidity and it is times like these I'm glad we have Mangini because I think I can rest comfortably knowing he won't take a QB with our 1st round pick.

Improve the supporting cast, then get a QB next year in a better QB class when the team should be able to establish a decent running game and a decent defense, which has been a very common factor in quarterback success; Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan (Defense was terrible, but great running game), Peyton Manning (Same as Ryan), so on and so forth.

j05son
10-16-2009, 01:25 PM
My biggest gripe against the drafting of a QB was that I wanted to see if we had one on this roster first and foremost. Anderson is obviously not the answer and it seems that the regime is unwilling to give Quinn a shot (6 total games, 2 with an injury isn't enough IMO). They will obviously need to find a QB, but once again, I don't think you necessarily go after a QB just because you don't have one. You have to go BPA. We might need a QB, but do you seriously think that Bradford, McCoy or Tebow will potentially be better than Berry or Suh? College coaches don't develop QB's, they put them in gimmick offenses and let them win games. We may need a QB but I would rather get a guy who will be more of a 'sure thing' in Berry (position of need) or Suh who are highly touted guys who may be the elitist of this draft. None of these QB's carry the prestige of Manning, Palmer or Vick did when they came out.

Also, IAC, the whole Atlanta laughing to the bank may have been premature as obviously Miami is doing well and Henne has looked good.

Brown Leader
10-16-2009, 09:50 PM
If I'm not mistaken IAC is talking about if a legit franchise one is available and I agree but...

Getting tired of hearing how bad Browns and DA were last week-That is not the worst we've seen of DA-in fact i think he played decent. 3rd down drops killed most of the drives. And as for the philosophy-i love it. I doubt that run, run, run is the game plan every week but I'm not ruling out that DA can be the QB of a good run oriented team with a good defense and have some success. Maby i'm smoking too much but I'd like to think that's where we're headed.

and Jlew was in.

EDIT-I have been smoking too much and this IS the worst we've seen of DA.

Iamcanadian
10-17-2009, 11:39 AM
Half of the QBs taken 1st overall were busts largely because they were put in horrible situations a la Cleveland, Houston, and San Francisco

Teams that have a top 5 pick are obviously not strong teams yet half the QB's drafted by them are starting in the NFL. GM's make these decisions for any good team and a lot of good teams have drafted successful QB's #1 overall. Only 6% of QB's drafted in round 2 become solid starters in the NFL and the odds get a lot worse the further down the draft you go so you can take the 50% shot or you can take the 6% or less shot and that is why GM's draft QB's in round 1.

QB's are taken 1st overall for many reasons. There's certainly a premium put on the position, but they in many ways are forced into the pick by ownership, the fan base, and the money involved.

GM's can read the percentages and they perfer the 50% shot. They invented the golden rule not ownership and not the fans.

Just because teams take a QB first overall doesn't mean it's a good idea and as we have seen in this thread, it often results in failure.

Again, GM's can read the percentages and only a stupid GM would stake his job on finding a QB past round 1.

It's also interesting that there are 2 other threads discussing this very issue and the vast majority of people think the Browns and teams like the Browns need to improve the supporting cast before throwing another QB into the mix.

Since when are fans GM's and how many of them have actually studied the odds for finding a QB past round 1. Many solid football fans who I know support the drafting of a QB in round 1 for obvious reasons.

And Mario Williams is one of the best DEnds in football and Jake Long is doing a nice job in Miami

How long ago did Houston draft M. Williams and how many times has Houston made the playoff = zero? Besides VY wasn't liked by a lot of GM's as a true franchise type QB. Parcells is an unusual GM. As a HC he preferred veterans like Bledsoe as his QB rather than draft one. However he won the SB with a
1st round pick named Sims playing QB. Long is a very nice LT but I think Ryan will produce a lot more playoff runs than Miami will get and possibly a few SB as well.

The Browns had a chance to take a QB in 2007 3rd overall and thank God they did not otherwise we'd miss out on Joe Thomas in favor of Brady Quinn and we'd be in a bigger mess than we are currently in.

In case you missed it, Quinn wasn't a top 5 pick and was hardly a future franchise QB. When you fall as far as he did and are passed over by many teams in need of a QB, then you do not belong in this conversation.

Eric Berry, Ndamukong Suh, and Gerald McCoy are elite talents. Passing on them for a marginal QB class would be stupidity and it is times like these I'm glad we have Mangini because I think I can rest comfortably knowing he won't take a QB with our 1st round pick.

If there is no top 5 quality QB in this draft class then I'm in full agreement with passing on one, however neither you nor I yet know how the scouts and GM's actually feel about this year's QB class nor who will declare.
You also have no way of knowing if Mangini will draft a QB with our 1st round pick especially since it usually takes 3 or 4 years for a QB to reach his potential and start winning consistently. That means even if we draft a successful franchise QB in this year's draft, it will likely be 2013 before we are capable of being a playoff team and every year Mangini puts off drafting one is another year added on to this figure. You really think he will have a job if he cannot find a franchise QB real soon. How long before the fans stop buying tickets in huge #'s if we continue to be a sad sack team. Owners and fans will put up with losing if they have some hope for the future and 1st round QB's sell tickets ask Ford in Detroit. DT's don't sell tickets!!!

Improve the supporting cast, then get a QB next year in a better QB class when the team should be able to establish a decent running game and a decent defense, which has been a very common factor in quarterback success; Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan (Defense was terrible, but great running game), Peyton Manning (Same as Ryan), so on and so forth.

You don't know how good the QB class will be next year, the top ones may well declare this year, and furthermore you don't know if Cleveland will be in a position to draft the top QB available next year, I'm not even sure they will get a shot this year. All I'm saying if we get a shot this year we cannot afford to pass as you can be waiting for the next decade before you get another chance. You really expect a GM to risk his job by passing on a QB who will be possibly leading his team to the playoffs just like Ryan and Flacco did while we potentially might not get another shot for many years.
It seems you don't want to face the facts that GM's don't pass on franchise QB's, their job depends on winning and selling tickets and if they cannot do either, they will be out of work quickly. Fans never take into account ticket sales and what it does to your team's salary structure if you have to pay a rookie who is a non QB, 60 million dollars and that is why fans generally don't have a clue on what their team will do come draft day.

wonderbredd24
10-17-2009, 02:26 PM
The revisionist history on Brady Quinn could not be more entertaining.

Scott had him as his 2nd overall prospect. Joe Thomas was 4th. Almost every scouting website would put Brady Quinn near the top of their rankings. Phil Savage said he thought he had 2 of the top 5 players in that draft.

So why doesn't Brady Quinn look like a Top 5 player in that draft? He's playing on a horrible team.

Iamcanadian
10-17-2009, 11:03 PM
The revisionist history on Brady Quinn could not be more entertaining.

Scott had him as his 2nd overall prospect. Joe Thomas was 4th. Almost every scouting website would put Brady Quinn near the top of their rankings. Phil Savage said he thought he had 2 of the top 5 players in that draft.

So why doesn't Brady Quinn look like a Top 5 player in that draft? He's playing on a horrible team.

I think your the revisionist. It doesn't matter what gurus have a player rated, it only matters what scouts and GM's think of him and last I looked he went in the 20's. You see gurus don't get to work a prospect out and don't get to interview him either. Even their game film isn't up to pro standards.
Pro scouts and GM's have seen every QB who was drafted early, they worked them all out and interviewed them to see what their makeup is? They worked Quinn out and checked out his mental toughness in the interview process and 20 teams passed on him because they didn't like what they saw.
Of course every team says they got the best player in the draft and didn't think he would be available when they drafted. That tune is played for the press and fans every year but it doesn't make it true.
If playing on a horrible team kept top 5 QB's on the bench then your not watching the same NFL I am. First round QB's may sit a year although most teams break them in by mid season unless another solid QB is in their way. i.e. Rodgers and Rivers.
Quinn has been passed over by 2 HC's and 2 OC's because they though he just doesn't have enough talent and intangibles to be a winner. If you add in the 20 teams that passed on him in the draft, that makes 22 HC's, and 22 OC's who just don't think he has the talent to be a NFL starting QB. IMO, there is no way he will ever be a starting QB in the NFL, he has pretty well settled in as a career backup at best. Face it, we have 2 first rounders on the OL plus a solid LG and our LT is of all pro quality so by all rights our QB's should be flourishing not riding the bench after how many years in the league???
Anyways we have had a pleasant discussion and we each have our beliefs which obviously aren't going to change and we'll just have to pray that some how we end up with a playoff team some time in the future one way or another.

RaiderNation
10-18-2009, 09:59 PM
Who would you rather have SS Eric Berry or DT/DE Ndamukong Suh

wonderbredd24
10-18-2009, 10:14 PM
Who would you rather have SS Eric Berry or DT/DE Ndamukong Suh

If it were up to me, Berry.

My Big Board at this point:

1. Eric Berry
2. Ndamukong Suh
3. Gerald McCoy
4. Jake Locker
5. Taylor Mays

Iamcanadian
10-21-2009, 07:12 AM
If it were up to me, Berry.

My Big Board at this point:

1. Eric Berry
2. Ndamukong Suh
3. Gerald McCoy
4. Jake Locker
5. Taylor Mays

I was listening to Polamalu on NFL Network the other day and he said that replacing a Safety(he's hurt) is far easier than replacing primary position players, hence Pittsburgh can still win without him. I know financial considerations weren't on your mind when you picked Berry, but paying a seconary position player 60 million dollars or there about just isn't likely to happen, because it means you will have little money left on you cap to pay your primary position players top dollar. On every successful NFL franchise, the QB is the top paid player and the pay scale works its way down to secondary position players. If your Safety is your top paid player you will NEVER be able to put together a championship team.
I'm not criticizing Berry's talent but most of a Safeties actions happen 20 yards down the field and in pass defense they mostly cover TE's, so paying them top dollar makes no sense. Safeties for the most part don't sack QB's, don't cover WR's and only make tackles if the RB has got past the DL and LB's and that is why it is considered a secondary position on a football team. While it is nice if you get lucky and have a great safety, they really don't impact a game enough to waste a high 1st rounder on.

wonderbredd24
10-21-2009, 09:16 AM
I was listening to Polamalu on NFL Network the other day and he said that replacing a Safety(he's hurt) is far easier than replacing primary position players, hence Pittsburgh can still win without him. I know financial considerations weren't on your mind when you picked Berry, but paying a seconary position player 60 million dollars or there about just isn't likely to happen, because it means you will have little money left on you cap to pay your primary position players top dollar. On every successful NFL franchise, the QB is the top paid player and the pay scale works its way down to secondary position players. If your Safety is your top paid player you will NEVER be able to put together a championship team.
I'm not criticizing Berry's talent but most of a Safeties actions happen 20 yards down the field and in pass defense they mostly cover TE's, so paying them top dollar makes no sense. Safeties for the most part don't sack QB's, don't cover WR's and only make tackles if the RB has got past the DL and LB's and that is why it is considered a secondary position on a football team. While it is nice if you get lucky and have a great safety, they really don't impact a game enough to waste a high 1st rounder on.

If you could, would you give Ed Reed $60 million to play his career here? I sure as hell would and that's what you hope you're doing with Eric Berry, who has the potential to be even better.

Ask the Steelers fans how much they miss Polamalu when he's out. Look at how ordinary the Colts defense looks without Bob Sanders.

There's no QB worth taking in this draft and the Browns need talent before they throw another QB into the blender that is the offense. Eric Berry represents the best talent in the draft at a position of need and fits exactly what this defense does. Berry plays Safety, Corner, and Linebacker in the Vols defense, so he can blitz, cover, and is a threat to score whenever the ball is in his hands. Monte Kiffin has said he would not hesitate to take Eric Berry #1 overall. Eric Mangini and Rob Ryan could do wonders with this kid.

On top of all this, the likelihood is there will be a rookie salary cap implemented so this would be the last big contract the Browns have to worry about unless they go nuts in free agency, which is unlikely.

I wouldn't have hesitated to take Aaron Curry last year if he was at 5 even though linebackers do not typically go in the top 10 even with the big contract. I'd do the same with Eric Berry and not think twice about it.

Berry's as close to a complete football player as you will find and he doesn't turn 21 until December and he's a great kid on top of that.

djp
10-26-2009, 04:07 PM
We need Browns fans to apply for the Forum Mock, it's a ton of fun. Only 3 rounds so it's not a major time commitment.

wonderbredd24
10-26-2009, 04:10 PM
Already sent in my application

j05son
10-27-2009, 02:53 PM
We need Browns fans to apply for the Forum Mock, it's a ton of fun. Only 3 rounds so it's not a major time commitment.

Already sent in my application

I would recommend Wonderbredd24 for the mock.

Brown Leader
10-30-2009, 04:38 AM
Randy Lerner-There is no question that the Browns need a credible, vocal leader that is accountable for all levels of performance. Regardless of the title, that person, whether they're in the building currently or not, is a priority.


Down on your knees Randolph and beg Mr. Schottenheimer.

Iamcanadian
10-31-2009, 10:09 AM
Down on your knees Randolph and beg Mr. Schottenheimer.

Gee, I always thought the owner is the person responsible for the overall performance of his team. I can attest that he is not currently in the building doing his job but is a bumbling incompetent idiot who hasn't a clue on how to run a team. He in turn hired more incompetent people to run his organization and we all see the results.

Brown Leader
11-02-2009, 08:45 PM
Mangini & company have been such a monumental failure this season their ability to coach up the #1 overall pk QB is real doubtful. That's why changes have to be made. On the sideline late in that game was pure comedy. DC Ryan, with his dead last defense cursing out Cutler was a new low for me- a wtf moment-almost matched by Daboll looking away every time he calls a play. Kokinis firing should just be the beginning. It should be 1 and done for Mangini just like Cam in Miami. With Kokinis out I'm curious who here thinks Mangini should be given any more time?

Iamcanadian
11-02-2009, 10:09 PM
Mangini & company have been such a monumental failure this season their ability to coach up the #1 overall pk QB is real doubtful. That's why changes have to be made. On the sideline late in that game was pure comedy. DC Ryan, with his dead last defense cursing out Cutler was a new low for me- a wtf moment-almost matched by Daboll looking away every time he calls a play. Kokinis firing should just be the beginning. It should be 1 and done for Mangini just like Cam in Miami. With Kokinis out I'm curious who here thinks Mangini should be given any more time?

I haven't seen any report that Lerner has removed Mangini from the de facto GM position. He hired Kokinis because he didn't want any friction between the HC and the GM.
Lerner is all over the map in his decisions. He fired Butch Davis who also had dual authority as HC and GM and hired Savage and Crennel in a situation where neither was happy with the other guy but he never gave Savage authority to fire Crennel as I understand it. He then fired both of them after 1 losing season following a 10 win season, something that is extremely rare in the NFL. Then he returned to a dual role for his HC and give him complete control over the draft and trades just like he did with Butch Davis, now he is returning to a situation where the new GM probably won't want Mangini and friction will exist between them if Mangini is retained???
Lerner is just going around in circles and hasn't a clue how to run an organization. I see no indication that he has learned anything from his past experience and that Cleveland can only expect more of the same. I ask you, what talented young GM is going to want the Cleveland job if all they can expect is a quick firing even if they produce a winning season?
IMO, Lerner has quickly established himself on par with William Clay Ford as an absolute terrible owner and your wishful thinking isn't going to make him more competent.

j05son
11-02-2009, 11:48 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4616312

Kokinis fired.

http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2009/11/02/sports/nh1647108.txt

Ernie Accorsi is the new GM.

Mangini apparently was given an ultimatum. (no link)

I love how Lerner is taking action now. Yes, it seems like this was another mistake at the front office positions but you have to swing to get a hit. I really want to know what the supposed ultimatum is for Mangini. =]

Scotty D
11-03-2009, 12:05 AM
Nice hire with Accorsi.

Bengalsrocket
11-03-2009, 12:35 AM
I think your the revisionist. It doesn't matter what gurus have a player rated, it only matters what scouts and GM's think of him and last I looked he went in the 20's. You see gurus don't get to work a prospect out and don't get to interview him either. Even their game film isn't up to pro standards.
Pro scouts and GM's have seen every QB who was drafted early, they worked them all out and interviewed them to see what their makeup is? They worked Quinn out and checked out his mental toughness in the interview process and 20 teams passed on him because they didn't like what they saw.
Of course every team says they got the best player in the draft and didn't think he would be available when they drafted. That tune is played for the press and fans every year but it doesn't make it true.
If playing on a horrible team kept top 5 QB's on the bench then your not watching the same NFL I am. First round QB's may sit a year although most teams break them in by mid season unless another solid QB is in their way. i.e. Rodgers and Rivers.
Quinn has been passed over by 2 HC's and 2 OC's because they though he just doesn't have enough talent and intangibles to be a winner. If you add in the 20 teams that passed on him in the draft, that makes 22 HC's, and 22 OC's who just don't think he has the talent to be a NFL starting QB. IMO, there is no way he will ever be a starting QB in the NFL, he has pretty well settled in as a career backup at best. Face it, we have 2 first rounders on the OL plus a solid LG and our LT is of all pro quality so by all rights our QB's should be flourishing not riding the bench after how many years in the league???
Anyways we have had a pleasant discussion and we each have our beliefs which obviously aren't going to change and we'll just have to pray that some how we end up with a playoff team some time in the future one way or another.

22 coaches and offensive coordinator's didn't pass on Brady Quinn because he wasn't good enough. Go back and look at the draft, there were only 4-5 teams in that draft that needed a QB. Atlanta (Vick was gone, Ryan wasn't there yet), Miami (They had Cleo Lemon & drafted John Beck that year). The third team that maybe could have drafted him would be the Texans but they literally just traded for Schaub with their 2nd round pick and I doubt they wanted to spend their 1st and 2nd round pick on QBs. The Raiders passed on Brady Quinn, for Jamarcus Russel. And I believe that had a lot more to do with Al Davis' love for physical attributes rather than the Raiders thinking Brady wasn't NFL material. and finally the 5th team is Buffalo, I don't know why they passed on him.

The other 15 teams that passed on Brady Quinn had a reason, and here they are:

Detroit - Kitna - not the greatest, but he wasn't doing poorly and if you have a veteran there to run Martz's system then you're not going to miss out on a blue chip player like Calvin Johnson)

Tampa Bay - Gruden loves his mobile QBs and Garcia was doing things for that offense.

Arizona - Leinart / Warner.

Washington - Jason Campbell - he was still their project.

Minnesota - Tavaris Jackson - he was still their project.

San Fransisco - Alex Smith - he was still their project.

St. Louis - Bulger - looked like a straight stud in 2006.

NYjets - Pennington - he was still their guy in 2007.

Pittsburgh - Roethlisberger...

Green Bay - Both Favre and Rodgers

Denver - Cutler

Cincinnati - Palmer

Tennessee - Vince Young was just the rookie of the year.

NYGiants - Eli Manning

Jacksonville - Just signed Garrard to like a 40 million dollar deal.

So realistically only those 4-5 teams passed on Quinn and I think it's safe to say that none of them were well run organizations :P All of them are either still bad (Buffalo) had a reason not to draft him (Houston) or have had serious front office changes since then (Atlanta / Miami).

MidwayMonster31
11-03-2009, 12:43 AM
I remember the talking heads saying that Quinn would be due for a slide if the Dolphins passed on him at #9 and Bengalsrocket described why.
Also, from what I understand, Vick didn't really get in trouble for dogfighting until July, so everyone assumed that he would stay in Atlanta.

jmess15
11-03-2009, 06:32 AM
Mangini & company have been such a monumental failure this season their ability to coach up the #1 overall pk QB is real doubtful. That's why changes have to be made. On the sideline late in that game was pure comedy. DC Ryan, with his dead last defense cursing out Cutler was a new low for me- a wtf moment-almost matched by Daboll looking away every time he calls a play. Kokinis firing should just be the beginning. It should be 1 and done for Mangini just like Cam in Miami. With Kokinis out I'm curious who here thinks Mangini should be given any more time?

From a Jets fans' perspective you have my condolences with Mangini. I see him making the same mistakes with you (though 10x worse) that he did with the Jets. He obviously hasn't learned from his mistakes, so it is best that you guys part ways with him before he does any further damage. Good luck

Iamcanadian
11-03-2009, 01:47 PM
22 coaches and offensive coordinator's didn't pass on Brady Quinn because he wasn't good enough. Go back and look at the draft, there were only 4-5 teams in that draft that needed a QB. Atlanta (Vick was gone, Ryan wasn't there yet), Miami (They had Cleo Lemon & drafted John Beck that year). The third team that maybe could have drafted him would be the Texans but they literally just traded for Schaub with their 2nd round pick and I doubt they wanted to spend their 1st and 2nd round pick on QBs. The Raiders passed on Brady Quinn, for Jamarcus Russel. And I believe that had a lot more to do with Al Davis' love for physical attributes rather than the Raiders thinking Brady wasn't NFL material. and finally the 5th team is Buffalo, I don't know why they passed on him.

The other 15 teams that passed on Brady Quinn had a reason, and here they are:

Detroit - Kitna - not the greatest, but he wasn't doing poorly and if you have a veteran there to run Martz's system then you're not going to miss out on a blue chip player like Calvin Johnson)

Tampa Bay - Gruden loves his mobile QBs and Garcia was doing things for that offense.

Arizona - Leinart / Warner.

Washington - Jason Campbell - he was still their project.

Minnesota - Tavaris Jackson - he was still their project.

San Fransisco - Alex Smith - he was still their project.

St. Louis - Bulger - looked like a straight stud in 2006.

NYjets - Pennington - he was still their guy in 2007.

Pittsburgh - Roethlisberger...

Green Bay - Both Favre and Rodgers

Denver - Cutler

Cincinnati - Palmer

Tennessee - Vince Young was just the rookie of the year.

NYGiants - Eli Manning

Jacksonville - Just signed Garrard to like a 40 million dollar deal.

So realistically only those 4-5 teams passed on Quinn and I think it's safe to say that none of them were well run organizations :P All of them are either still bad (Buffalo) had a reason not to draft him (Houston) or have had serious front office changes since then (Atlanta / Miami).

If Quinn had real top 5 talent and was liked all that much, teams would have been falling over themselves to move up like the Jets did last year. Even if you are relatively solid at QB, good teams will draft a top 5 talent that has fallen and use him as future trade bait even if they don't need him for themselves and certainly weak teams will grab him if they have the chance no matter how bad their organizations is. Nobody wanted him, pure and simple until Cleveland stepped forward in the 20's. None of the 20 teams who passed on him thought he was a top 5 talent or even a top 10 talent. QB's get drafted higher than their talent level all the time, the position is too important for a team to pass on one. Rodgers is an exception to the rule but he was coached by Tedford who had a miserable record for producing NFL QB's and it scared a lot of teams off him. Quinn played in a pro set, was coached by a former successful NFL offensive coordinator yet he dropped on draft day, this is no like the Rodgers situation at all. He's been on the Browns for 3 seasons yet with enormous pressure on the HC's to start an expensive
1st rounder, he has failed to win the starters job. Situations like this only exist when a player is headed in the direction of a total flop, anything else is total wishful thinking.

CherryGarcia510
11-11-2009, 12:25 AM
hahah http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/11/11/mangini-claims-he-didnt-know-about-quinns-escalators/

D-Unit
11-17-2009, 02:35 AM
I love Kaluka Maiava! Guy had a nice game yesterday! Happy to see him doing good so soon.

DaN1eL
11-17-2009, 03:18 PM
I want C.J. Spiller

Brown Leader
11-18-2009, 10:45 AM
I want C.J. Spiller

Easy-this is a family forum.

edit-lolsorry it's about that time-it's been that time for awhile now

Splat
11-25-2009, 06:25 PM
Matt Roth is a Brown (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/11/25/matt-roth-is-a-brown/)

j05son
12-02-2009, 04:11 PM
Brodney Pool is out. For how long is undetermined, the San Diego game, season, career.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d814a7db9&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

j05son
12-06-2009, 07:28 PM
Quinn looked good today. Held on a tad long a few times but overall played well against a good team. Nice to see Robo in and make some catches (though the TD drop was disappointing). Massaquoi was still inconsistent but that should improve. Evan Moore looks promising.

Every Browns game I watch, I hate St. Clair and Poteat more and more.

wonderbredd24
12-06-2009, 07:37 PM
Quinn looked good today. Held on a tad long a few times but overall played well against a good team. Nice to see Robo in and make some catches (though the TD drop was disappointing). Massaquoi was still inconsistent but that should improve. Evan Moore looks promising.

Every Browns game I watch, I hate St. Clair and Poteat more and more.

Quinn looks like an NFL QB... it'd be nice if that holds true.

Mohammed Massaquoi can play. He's a rookie, but he's clearly got ability.

Brian Robiskie can catch... that's all I know. Hopefully he can build on that.

Evan Moore has great hands, but this underlines just how putrid the talent level on this team is.

Roth last week and Moore this week come in and play well... that's good that we have them but a sad statement as far as the team goes.

jriles0522
12-07-2009, 12:38 PM
Evan Moore looks good. Big and strong, nice ball skills.

I was curious about the guy, just figuring he was a bum.

For those that don't know, he had a full ride at Stanford to play football and BASKETBALL. Ultimately choosing football obviously, he was a WR not a tight end.

He played basketball for 2 years, and during his sophomore year led the team in TD catches. Had a dislocated hip JR year and a stress fracture senior year. For the packers he was put on IR after breaking his hand.

Weird combination of injuries. Hope its just bad luck. If he stays healthy he's got all the tools to be a pass catching TE.

kalbears13
12-07-2009, 01:23 PM
I really liked him in college and totally forgot about him when he went to the pros along with Mark Bradford from Stanford. I didn't even put 2 and 2 together until I got on the computer and realized he switched from WR to TE.

j05son
12-09-2009, 09:22 PM
Coleman out against Pittsburgh. Our DL is really thin with all these injuries.

LizardState
12-11-2009, 04:19 PM
1st time posting here & I want to offer big congrats & kudos for beating the Steelers.

Everybody (me included) said the Browns were the most demoralized team in the league, had to incentive to best Pittsburgh but against all odds you did it. I found the Steelers arrogance repugnant, I'm glad you gave them a dose of humility.

MattyFos
12-11-2009, 06:42 PM
Coleman out against Pittsburgh. Our DL is really thin with all these injuries.

It's a shame when you expect something to obviously happen (Our D-Line playing bad) and then get completely surprised (8 sacks). At the same time you have to be ecstatic that your first belief was proven wrong. lol.

j05son
12-13-2009, 05:00 AM
It's a shame when you expect something to obviously happen (Our D-Line playing bad) and then get completely surprised (8 sacks). At the same time you have to be ecstatic that your first belief was proven wrong. lol.

I'm ecstatic! I was always a fan of Ryan and his schemes, and now, seeing what he can do with limited personal gives me high hopes for him.

1st time posting here & I want to offer big congrats & kudos for beating the Steelers.

Everybody (me included) said the Browns were the most demoralized team in the league, had to incentive to best Pittsburgh but against all odds you did it. I found the Steelers arrogance repugnant, I'm glad you gave them a dose of humility.

Thanks man. Best part of the win was watching all the Steelers run in the tunnel without congratulating the Browns. I know Tomlin shook hands with Mangini and I saw Clark out there for a while with Browns. Big Ben though, straight into the tunnel.


**************
I'm sure most Cleveland fans have seen that Bowens is lobbying for Mangini to stay in Cleveland and even asked to speak to Lerner directly. I thought this was interesting though...
Added wide receiver/returner Joshua Cribbs, “He deserves more time. To turn around a struggling team in just one year can’t be done. Who would want to come here after the previous coach got only a year?”

Brown Leader
12-13-2009, 10:14 AM
I love Kaluka Maiava! Guy had a nice game yesterday! Happy to see him doing good so soon.

A little quick on that Maiava thread yank. I was going to add that the sack of BigBen while he was on the ground was the best play I've seen of him all season. When you consider how many tackles Ben breaks by DE's, DT's that was an impressive play. I'm encouraged about him.

j05son
12-13-2009, 04:08 PM
A little quick on that Maiava thread yank. I was going to add that the sack of BigBen while he was on the ground was the best play I've seen of him all season. When you consider how many tackles Ben breaks by DE's, DT's that was an impressive play. I'm encouraged about him.

Sorry, it was me that yanked the thread. It didn't have any posts since October 25th though.

vikes_28
12-14-2009, 06:19 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d814f898b&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Josh Cribbs a running-back?

Brown Leader
12-14-2009, 09:12 PM
This brings to mind a comment by an older fan on another site who said Cribbs was the best returner he'd seen since Gale Sayers.

It's def. worth a look but I think he would have difficulty as a 10 to 15 carry RB unless he played in a zone scheme. He doesn't have stop start quickness to go along with his vision. He runs high and is better at breaking tacklers then making them miss. BUT I'd be real interested to see him play RB in a zone scheme-he might look something like Darren McFadden imo. His best position ought to be as wildcat QB with the ability to run or pass and returning. He needs to be relieved as a ST coverage guy though.

kalbears13
12-15-2009, 12:27 AM
Someone needs to make 10 clones of Cribbs so he can be the whole team.

MattyFos
12-15-2009, 10:03 PM
Holmgren was speaking with Lerner about Dir. of Football Operations or Player Personnel. I'm not sure what the title is. But I hear they're talking 8 mil a year. Do you guys think that's a good idea? I do. I think him and getting Weis to be offensive coordinator would make this 'project' team a contender sooner than later.. It's a shame Mangini and Kokinis basically destroyed our depth at every position and got rid of all of our stars.

MattyFos
12-15-2009, 10:06 PM
BROWN LEADER-
I would like seeing Cribbs getting carries in an Iform. Maybe 8 rushes between the tackles, a few sweeps, and some passes out of the backfield. Use Cribbs like Nawlens tries using Reggie Bush... Bush is actually becoming the playmaker we all thought he'd be. Just not between the tackles.
We'd need to run Cribbs up the middle occasionally just to keep the Defense true.

keylime_5
12-15-2009, 10:10 PM
Holmgren was speaking with Lerner about Dir. of Football Operations or Player Personnel. I'm not sure what the title is. But I hear they're talking 8 mil a year. Do you guys think that's a good idea? I do. I think him and getting Weis to be offensive coordinator would make this 'project' team a contender sooner than later.. It's a shame Mangini and Kokinis basically destroyed our depth at every position and got rid of all of our stars.

Got rid of our stars (edwards and winslow) yes, but as far as depth is concerned I think we had more depth this year than we've had in a while. The difference in talent between the top of the roster and the bottom is not as great as it usually is. That's what you get I suspect when in free agency you just sign a bunch of depth guys and on draft day you have a load of midround picks and you trade for a bunch of depth guys in tradedowns.

MattyFos
12-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Got rid of our stars (edwards and winslow) yes, but as far as depth is concerned I think we had more depth this year than we've had in a while. The difference in talent between the top of the roster and the bottom is not as great as it usually is. That's what you get I suspect when in free agency you just sign a bunch of depth guys and on draft day you have a load of midround picks and you trade for a bunch of depth guys in tradedowns.
I don't consider our secondary to be loaded with depth guys. Injuries have plagued our whole Defense, but we have mid season signings at TE and RB playing significant time. We are relying on a trade from, you guessed it, the Jets for our second WR in Stuckey.. Costanzo, Roth, and Trusnik are getting decent playing time at LB, under Crennel those guys wouldn't have seem any action that wasn't on special teams.. No Leon Williams, Alex Hall, Beau Bell (we NEVER saw him before he was cut) I like what we have in Trusnik and Roth.. But Trusnik playing over Alex Hall? I just don't get it. Did we all forget Mangini's secret QB after the pre-season? His tenure here has been messed up from the get go. Hiring a HC before a GM? It's just too weird. Better end it sooner than later... This post seems to be race driven over the LB's.. but I just liked what I saw with Leon Williams and Alex Hall. I'm surprised with what I see of the "white LB's" but I'd rather be proven right with Hall and Williams than surprised by good play?

kalbears13
12-16-2009, 01:57 PM
Welcome to the boards MattyFos! Glad to have you here.

I believe that the depth on the Browns is pretty good all around compared to last year. If you look at what they did when healthy and what they did last week with basically all backups on the defensive side, I would say they did probably just as good. But saying the difference in talent between the top and the bottom of the roster isn't as big as last year can be seen as a plus or also a minus.

Brown Leader
12-16-2009, 02:18 PM
I don't consider our secondary to be loaded with depth guys. Injuries have plagued our whole Defense, but we have mid season signings at TE and RB playing significant time. We are relying on a trade from, you guessed it, the Jets for our second WR in Stuckey.. Costanzo, Roth, and Trusnik are getting decent playing time at LB, under Crennel those guys wouldn't have seem any action that wasn't on special teams.. No Leon Williams, Alex Hall, Beau Bell (we NEVER saw him before he was cut) I like what we have in Trusnik and Roth.. But Trusnik playing over Alex Hall? I just don't get it. Did we all forget Mangini's secret QB after the pre-season? His tenure here has been messed up from the get go. Hiring a HC before a GM? It's just too weird. Better end it sooner than later... This post seems to be race driven over the LB's.. but I just liked what I saw with Leon Williams and Alex Hall. I'm surprised with what I see of the "white LB's" but I'd rather be proven right with Hall and Williams than surprised by good play?

My sense with Hall is that he gets blocked too easily-not strong enough- that's why Trusnik stepped in. Trusnik looks like a great depth guy to me with the capability of improving into a solid vet. He's just not fast. I've been impressed with Roth since he broke out in Mia. I still haven't found an answer why he was released other than the injury bug. If he stays healthy and we stick with the 34 it's kind of like the Pats acquiring Vrabel from the Steelers.

Couldn't stand to watch L.Williams play-he was terrible imo and Roth is 10x better than Hall. Depth overall is okay but the secondary is very thin.

PickedOffTwice
12-16-2009, 02:25 PM
I agree. Our secondary is HORRIBLE. Some of the guys don't even have backup quality. I wouldn't mind spending all 11 picks on secondary ;-).

Brown Leader
12-16-2009, 03:30 PM
HaHa I've always liked the secondary even when Scott Wright was mocking us Jenkins but they've been unbearable to watch this season. Although I think that Steeler game may have been E.Wright's best ever. And i think McDonald would be ok if he could just make good on some of his opportunities to make up for his give ups.

PickedOffTwice
12-16-2009, 04:16 PM
HaHa I've always liked the secondary even when Scott Wright was mocking us Jenkins but they've been unbearable to watch this season. Although I think that Steeler game may have been E.Wright's best ever. And i think McDonald would be ok if he could just make good on some of his opportunities to make up for his give ups.

Yeah, i forgot about E. Wright. Talented guy. Pool is also a good player. But damn, we need a true playmaker in the secondary.

I wouldn't mind drafting Eric Berry at all, no matter how high.

keylime_5
12-16-2009, 04:20 PM
eric wright is a keeper. I've always liked McDonald, and he's had some really good games...but is very inconsistent. I like him better in the 3rd corner role. We need a playmaker at safety and we need to develop another guy to replace Abram Elam for sure. It seems like everytime I get to see the Browns on primetime, McDonald has a good game (save for the Denver game).

j05son
12-16-2009, 05:28 PM
The only legit NFL starter in our secondary is Wright. I think the jury is still out on McDonald. The guy is obviously talented but is inconsistent and a liability in run support. At worst, I see McDonald as the nickelback but if he can become more consistent I can't see why he can't play opposite Wright. BMac and Wright (hell, even Poteat) played excellent against Pittsburgh and their coverage is one of the reasons we were able to pressure Ben so effectively.

The safeties are our biggest concerns. Pool might have a career ending concussion (but he needs replaced anyways).

I'm want to see Francies play more. He was a player I wanted late in the draft.

wonderbredd24
12-16-2009, 06:01 PM
Brodney Pool is a football ******.

Great physical tools, but has little to no idea how to use them.

Eric Wright is really good... I wish he'd tackle like he did against Pittsburgh all the time, but he's a great cover corner regardless.

j05son
12-16-2009, 06:28 PM
Holmgren not on Seattle's list. (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Tavern-talk-Holmgren-not-on-Seattles-list.html)

Browns offer Holmgren $10M (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/rumors/post/Mike-Holmgren-considering-Cleveland-Browns-foot?urn=nfl,209166)

Brown Leader
12-16-2009, 07:08 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Francies at FS. I wouldn't mind seeing any of him-from what I've read he's not seeing time because he doesn't have the playbook down/or missed assignments. Scouting on him projected him as a possible S. If Berry was the pick he'd have no problem playing SS.

MattyFos
12-16-2009, 10:23 PM
My sense with Hall is that he gets blocked too easily-not strong enough- that's why Trusnik stepped in. Trusnik looks like a great depth guy to me with the capability of improving into a solid vet. He's just not fast. I've been impressed with Roth since he broke out in Mia. I still haven't found an answer why he was released other than the injury bug. If he stays healthy and we stick with the 34 it's kind of like the Pats acquiring Vrabel from the Steelers.

Couldn't stand to watch L.Williams play-he was terrible imo and Roth is 10x better than Hall. Depth overall is okay but the secondary is very thin.

Alot of good points. I just think Hall has a ton of raw talent. He's very good at the 3-4 pass rush OLB.. I think he just can't cover. I heard Mangini loves guys that can do it all. Hall lacks that part of his game

keylime_5
12-19-2009, 10:44 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4757967

Seattle offered Holmgren a position and he declined it. Not as much power involved as the director of football operations ("football czar") position the Browns have offered to him. It would be more convenient for him to stay in Seattle since his family is all already settled in there, but the oppurtunity in Cleveland looks like it's gonna be too good for him to pass up in the end. This is good news for us.

Personally I think we need to have one guy to be the architect that builds the team ala Bill Parcells in Miami. This is what we were supposed to get in Scott Pioli last offseason but Lerner had "better" ideas in regards to having to have Mangini as his head coach. Let Mike Holmgren hire a GM and fill all of the leadership positions that need filling.

fischbowl
12-20-2009, 01:47 PM
Just wondering, did Ryan Pontbriand really just muff a snap? Really?

wonderbredd24
12-20-2009, 02:01 PM
Just wondering, did Ryan Pontbriand really just muff a snap? Really?

No, the snap was good... Nick Sorenson was in the way and it bounced off his arm

fischbowl
12-20-2009, 02:04 PM
No, the snap was good... Nick Sorenson was in the way and it bounced off his arm

Oh thank god. Ryan Pontbriand is god to long snapping

keylime_5
12-20-2009, 05:33 PM
apparently we've been misusing harrison.

fear the elf
12-20-2009, 05:52 PM
2 game winning streak!

wonderbredd24
12-20-2009, 05:52 PM
apparently we've been misusing harrison.

All they need to do is play a run defense as horrid as the Chiefs every week where Jerome Harrison looked like Timmy Smith running behind the Hogs in the Superbowl.

Alex Mack especially, but the OLine as a whole dominated and Harrison was rarely touched until the 2nd level and has the speed to make a team pay for it.

PickedOffTwice
12-21-2009, 06:01 AM
All they need to do is play a run defense as horrid as the Chiefs every week where Jerome Harrison looked like Timmy Smith running behind the Hogs in the Superbowl.

Alex Mack especially, but the OLine as a whole dominated and Harrison was rarely touched until the 2nd level and has the speed to make a team pay for it.

Still, running for 286 yards is an impressive achievement. Lot of great O-Lines and RBs play lots of awful run defenses every week. Yet, Harrison had the third highest rushing yards ALL-TIME.

Give credit where credit is due to the Line and Harrison for an amazing game. And don't forget Brady Quinn, who forced us to call about 4000 runs so he didn't have to pass... ;-)

j05son
12-21-2009, 07:49 AM
Still, running for 286 yards is an impressive achievement. Lot of great O-Lines and RBs play lots of awful run defenses every week. Yet, Harrison had the third highest rushing yards ALL-TIME.

Give credit where credit is due to the Line and Harrison for an amazing game. And don't forget Brady Quinn, who forced us to call about 4000 runs so he didn't have to pass... ;-)

Quinn had a lousy passing performance but the way he managed the game was phenomenal. Remember that Quinn calls OLine adjustments and audibles.

On Quinn though, his throws near the sideline kill me every time. He's got to keep the ball in bounds. That first INT was a WTF moment. The second INT was disappointing, but at least KC had awful field position and Quinn was taking a shot and not checking down.

keylime_5
12-21-2009, 09:11 AM
yeah, it's quinn's stuff other than throwing yesterday that impressed me. He looked like stud NFL QB managing the game and running the ball on that 4th down. Too bad 90% of quarterbacking is throwing the ball. We need to give him more time, even though it doesn't look like he'll amount to much if those accuracy issues linger. Timing with the WRs is part of the problem, and that should be solved in an offseason of work.


Hank Fraley at right guard seems to work eh? If only we had a solid right tackle our OLine would be fierce. Matt Roth and Corey Williams are two nice late bright spots this year on defense. We need to hang onto Roth.

PickedOffTwice
12-21-2009, 09:29 AM
Quinn had a lousy passing performance but the way he managed the game was phenomenal. Remember that Quinn calls OLine adjustments and audibles.

On Quinn though, his throws near the sideline kill me every time. He's got to keep the ball in bounds. That first INT was a WTF moment. The second INT was disappointing, but at least KC had awful field position and Quinn was taking a shot and not checking down.

It's true. But at the end of the day, as an NFL QB, you have to be the complete package. College QBs get by with really excelling at one of these things: Throwing, leadership, mobility, understanding the game and so forth. An NFL starter needs the total package, period.

And, like you, Quinns throws make me cringe at times. A lot of it HAS to be mental, though. The guy came out of college with great accuracy and an arm able to make (nearly) every NFL throw. He now has 3 years of pro-practice in him. I can see no reason why his throwing ability might have degressed other than it being mental.

We will probably give him a shot next year anyway, since there is no QB in this draft I can see starting right away in the NFL. So even if we draft one, Quinn willl most likely start next year.

STsACE
12-21-2009, 12:09 PM
And, like you, Quinns throws make me cringe at times. A lot of it HAS to be mental, though. The guy came out of college with great accuracy and an arm able to make (nearly) every NFL throw. He now has 3 years of pro-practice in him. I can see no reason why his throwing ability might have degressed other than it being mental.

We will probably give him a shot next year anyway, since there is no QB in this draft I can see starting right away in the NFL. So even if we draft one, Quinn willl most likely start next year.

2nd OC in 3 years. Unneeded QB competition. Inexperienced WRs. And until lately really no TE to rely on this year.

Hopefully this offseason, DA is shipped out and Quinn is told from the start that it's his team.

I agree with you guys saying that his leadership abilities is great and he also handles the no huddle very well for only having 10(?) starts now.

I also fear that we may see another OC next year as well furthering any setbacks with his development.

fear the elf
12-21-2009, 04:00 PM
I also fear that we may see another OC next year as well furthering any setbacks with his development.

definitely possible:

Here is an AFC North blog prediction: Don’t be surprised if Jim Zorn lands with the Cleveland Browns in some capacity next year. Yes, Zorn is currently the head coach of the Washington Redskins. But it's the worst-kept secret in the league that he’s on the outs and Washington is eyeing Mike Shanahan. With Mike Holmgren expected to take over the Browns this week, Zorn could be among the first people he recruits in the offseason, most likely as a quarterbacks coach, which is Zorn's specialty. Cleveland quarterback Brady Quinn has been through a lot of adversity and transition already in his young career. So Quinn could use a steady hand.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/7192/seven-step-drop-33

keylime_5
12-21-2009, 07:37 PM
now the question shifts to will Mangini's title as Cleveland Browns Head Coach survive the winter?

LonghornsLegend
12-21-2009, 07:43 PM
I'm glad to see Quinn looking decent finally, it's taken some stability, but I hope you guys get him some weapons in the draft. I really didn't think Crabtree would of been a bad pick for you guys, but hopefully you can address the right side of the line and at least get a few weapons.


I know the defense is terrible, but I'd put a priority on trying to protect Quinn and getting some play-makers, you can't do everything in one off-season.

keylime_5
12-21-2009, 07:50 PM
I was in the camp that said draft Crabtree if Curry was gone, but since we traded down and took the great pickt that was Alex Mack (who is really coming into his own as a dominating center), it's okay. Quinn has actually looked really awful throwing the ball against Pittsburgh and Kansas City, but a lot of that has to do with timing and lousy receivers - not just his erratic accuracy. We do need a right tackle and some playmakers in the passing game for Quinn though. The only thing we've been missing the past few weeks is....any sort of passing attack whatsoever.

PickedOffTwice
12-21-2009, 08:04 PM
I was in the camp that said draft Crabtree if Curry was gone, but since we traded down and took the great pickt that was Alex Mack (who is really coming into his own as a dominating center), it's okay. Quinn has actually looked really awful throwing the ball against Pittsburgh and Kansas City, but a lot of that has to do with timing and lousy receivers - not just his erratic accuracy. We do need a right tackle and some playmakers in the passing game for Quinn though. The only thing we've been missing the past few weeks is....any sort of passing attack whatsoever.

Absolutely. I mean we could have picked a lot of guys, since we actually have needs nearly everywhere. In hindsight though, the Alex Mack pick was quite awesome.

fear the elf
12-22-2009, 07:28 AM
I know the defense is terrible, but I'd put a priority on trying to protect Quinn and getting some play-makers, you can't do everything in one off-season.

This has been my thinking lately as well. Add talent to the offense and give Quinn a chance to develop next year with a great Oline and running game and a full off season to work with his receivers.

I'm a Quinn fan, and want to see him do well, but if it just doesn't work after that, the pieces will be in place, at least on offense, to draft a top QB. (I'm assuming that if Quinn doesn't work out, we will be drafting in the top half of Rd 1 again)

It's weird for me to talk like this since I'm usually a defense kind of guy, but I think the priority next year has to be finding out what we have in Quinn, WITHOUT any QB controversy distractions and a good unit around him.

j05son
12-22-2009, 08:55 AM
This has been my thinking lately as well. Add talent to the offense and give Quinn a chance to develop next year with a great Oline and running game and a full off season to work with his receivers.

I'm a Quinn fan, and want to see him do well, but if it just doesn't work after that, the pieces will be in place, at least on offense, to draft a top QB. (I'm assuming that if Quinn doesn't work out, we will be drafting in the top half of Rd 1 again)

It's weird for me to talk like this since I'm usually a defense kind of guy, but I think the priority next year has to be finding out what we have in Quinn, WITHOUT any QB controversy distractions and a good unit around him.

Agreed. I would love to see Quinn go through an entire offseason knowing he's the starter, can work consistently with the top WR's and gain some chemistry and find out what he has. The guy has less starts than Mark Sanchez.

Before the snap, Quinn is legit, after the snap he's inconsistent. Maybe more chemistry, more game experience and more confidence will improve, maybe we'll be in the same spot next year (most likely with better QB talent in Locker and Mallet).

keylime_5
12-22-2009, 10:08 AM
Brady Quinn has been put on the IR : (

Derek Anderson vs Charlie Frye this week. : D

fear the elf
12-22-2009, 10:14 AM
Damn It Brady!

fear the elf
12-22-2009, 10:48 AM
BTW, anyone want to bet that DA plays just barely well enough to f*ck us and we end up in another QB battle next season?

j05son
12-22-2009, 11:09 AM
Brady Quinn has been put on the IR : (

Derek Anderson vs Charlie Frye this week. : D

Was it when he fell/got tackled awkwardly on that bootleg? Foot/ankle/knee injury?

EDIT:

What's the over/under on Anderson and Ratliff ending up on the IR and us signing someone off the street again?

keylime_5
12-22-2009, 11:58 AM
yeah, BQ hurt his right foot on that bootleg that set up the game winning TD run. I say if Anderson gets hurt (or if he plays like Derek Anderson always plays) then we should go wildcat fulltime, haha.

PickedOffTwice
12-22-2009, 06:03 PM
yeah, BQ hurt his right foot on that bootleg that set up the game winning TD run. I say if Anderson gets hurt (or if he plays like Derek Anderson always plays) then we should go wildcat fulltime, haha.

Oh man. Tough blow... Just when you thought things are starting to click. I hope Derek Anderson gets his act together the last two games...

Derek Anderson being himself against the Raiders secondary will surely lead to approximately 10 picks...

ROADBLOCK
12-22-2009, 09:08 PM
This week's game should be interesting. I'm starting Cribbs as my RB/WR for my ESPN Fantasy Team for the 3rd week in a row. In the event that Anderson AND Ratliff end up hurt, the game will be in Josh Cribbs' hands. He's listed as the #3 quarterback for this week.

My opinion, the Browns should have never let Gradkowski go after last year. Look at what he's done in Oakland. Sure he got hurt, but he looked really good throwing the ball and getting comfortable in the pocket. Hell, Mike Vick would have been an improvement for this team.

Look at what has plagued the Browns QB situation since Tim Couch/Kelly Holcomb. QB battles ruin the season. They need to name Quinn the starter so that he can develop that essential chemistry with the Browns' young receiver corps in the offseason.

The offseason should be really interesting. With Holmgren in charge, the Browns might grow some balls and go after some big-name free agents who can educate the young team. Cleveland is notorious for throwing young draft picks straight into the game without giving them ample time to learn the playbook.

In short...
1. Name Quinn the starter in the offseason, so that he can build that essential chemistry with his receiving corps.

2. Sign a couple big name, seasoned veterans from free agency. Veterans educate young team members including fresh draft picks.

3. Mangini stays, at least 1 more year. Give Eric Mangini the chance to show he can help bring the Browns to prominence. All these coaching changes affect the players too.

Just my $.02, take it for what it's worth

MattyFos
12-22-2009, 10:00 PM
This week's game should be interesting. I'm starting Cribbs as my RB/WR for my ESPN Fantasy Team for the 3rd week in a row. In the event that Anderson AND Ratliff end up hurt, the game will be in Josh Cribbs' hands. He's listed as the #3 quarterback for this week.

My opinion, the Browns should have never let Gradkowski go after last year. Look at what he's done in Oakland. Sure he got hurt, but he looked really good throwing the ball and getting comfortable in the pocket. Hell, Mike Vick would have been an improvement for this team.

Look at what has plagued the Browns QB situation since Tim Couch/Kelly Holcomb. QB battles ruin the season. They need to name Quinn the starter so that he can develop that essential chemistry with the Browns' young receiver corps in the offseason.

The offseason should be really interesting. With Holmgren in charge, the Browns might grow some balls and go after some big-name free agents who can educate the young team. Cleveland is notorious for throwing young draft picks straight into the game without giving them ample time to learn the playbook.

In short...
1. Name Quinn the starter in the offseason, so that he can build that essential chemistry with his receiving corps.

2. Sign a couple big name, seasoned veterans from free agency. Veterans educate young team members including fresh draft picks.

3. Mangini stays, at least 1 more year. Give Eric Mangini the chance to show he can help bring the Browns to prominence. All these coaching changes affect the players too.

Just my $.02, take it for what it's worth

1. Agree

2. Not former Jets... there are 30 other teams we can get veterans from

3. Disagree. We don't keep Mangini because he fell ass backward into a winning streak. If Holmgren feels he can get a better coach, Gruden/ Cowher/ Mooch or any other candidate out there then Holmgren had to pull the trigger. If Holmgren has been impressed with what he's seen, then he will keep Mangini.

ROADBLOCK
12-22-2009, 10:48 PM
I think Mangini can make this work. You can bet that if he stays, Holmgren will have ALOT of influence on what Mangini says/does/learns as the next few years progress. However, i would like to see Bill Cowher coach the Browns. its just sad that Coach Cowher said it right there on NFL Today that he was happy with retirement. Alot of new fans don't know that Bill Cowher used to be a Browns coach. It should be interesting to see which coaches go bye-bye after the season's over. I liked Romeo Crennel, but then again, I also liked Butch Davis. Look at what Crennel did for the Patriot's defense when he was there. Davis I don't think was ready to coach NFL.

keylime_5
12-23-2009, 04:02 PM
WTF?????

Jerome Harrison breaks Jim Brown's single game rushing record, 3rd best rushing day in NFL history, and doesn't get AFC offensive player of the week?????

PickedOffTwice
12-23-2009, 07:18 PM
WTF?????

Jerome Harrison breaks Jim Brown's single game rushing record, 3rd best rushing day in NFL history, and doesn't get AFC offensive player of the week?????

Yeah, what a BS... If Peterson or Johnson would have put up those numbers in a game where their team needs a 40-burger to win, they'd won season MVP for that game alone.

j05son
12-25-2009, 09:26 AM
It's obvious by now that NFL executives/coaches like to bring in players they are familiar with. I was looking for current or ex Seahawks that would be entering free agency this year...

The three most notable names (IMO) are:
Rob Sims - G. 6'3" 312lbs, 26 years old. He's the current starting LG for Seattle. Became a starter late in his rookie season and full time starter the next three years. An Ohio boy and attended tOSU.

Chris Spencer - G. 6'3" 312lbs, 27 years old. Current starting RG for Seattle. Started 13/16 games in his second season and then became a full time starter the next three years. Was a center out of college (Mississippi) and was a first round draftee.

Ken Lucas - CB. 6' 205lbs, 30 years old. While not a starting caliber CB anymore, the 9 year pro could provide some veteran leadership and possibly an effective nickle/dimeback.

PickedOffTwice
12-25-2009, 12:57 PM
Let me please interrupt the discussion the announce the following:

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, kids. I always appreciate the Cleveland Browns discussion around here.

ROADBLOCK
12-25-2009, 09:09 PM
First off, Merry Christmas to everyone.

Now for the Browns Discussion,

Cleveland has some drastic changes coming. Holmgren is going to be the big cheese in Cleveland now. Mangini's job is in more danger than anyone knows. It's widely known that Holmgren is a West Coast offense guy, and I keep thinking that he is going to either make Mangini attempt to switch and coach the West Coast, or he's going to have Mangini fired and bring in someone who can.

As for the quarterback situation, I keep getting this gut feeling that somehow, some way, Charlie Frye is going to return to the Browns. All week long I have read article after article with Frye praising Holmgren and vice versa. Please note that Frye was mentored under Homgren for 2 years in Seattle. If Holmgren doesn't think Brady Quinn will pan out, expect to see him do something about it.

The Browns also need to solidify their position on their running game. Jerome Harrison and Chris Jennings are both good, solid running backs. A double-headed attack in the running game, along with a decent QB and the Browns un-developed young wide receivers, could be a great offensive threat. Get your young receivers matured and playing to professional standards, have a decent quarterback who can lead the offense, and use Harrison and Jennings in a double-headed running attack, and Cleveland could be a force to be reckoned with in a couple years.

As for the defense, Cleveland has alot of young players there too. What they were thinking by letting Andra Davis go is beyond me. Why would you let your best defensive veteran go? With Cleveland more than likely switching to a 4-3 defense next year, they are going to have to find another nose tackle that can match up alongside Shaun Rogers. With two big, decent, very athletic veterans in the middle, combine that with Robaire Smith(assuming he matures and develops into a decent DE) and possibly Kamerion Wimbley or Corey Williams opposite, the D-Line could be decent too. With all these linebackers the Browns have, somebody decent should erupt from there too, my personal favorite being Jason Trusnik, or as I like to call him, the "Mini-Me" to Mike Vrabel. The Browns also have a young secondary, but if they get a decent safety in the draft, and Brodney Pool comes back, Brandon McDonald and Eric Wright should be able to handle the conerback positions.

All in all, I see the Browns improving under Holmgren. It remains to be seen whether or not Holmgren is going to bring in a GM or do it himself. It should be interesting to keep an eye on the coaching situation as well as the next couple weeks unfold.

j05son
12-27-2009, 11:00 AM
Lerner buys out the remainder of tickets and donates them to charity to avoid a blackout. Second time Lerner has done this, this season!

j05son
12-28-2009, 07:19 PM
Quick notes on Holmgren's first press conference:

* Holmgren wants to have a consensous between the front heads on all decisions and he will be there to break any ties. He stated that he will push hard in certain directions and he ultimately has full power.
* Holmgren stated he's not a fan of the quick hook (in regards to firing a HC after one season) and that he doesn't believe a HC can prove himself in one season.
* Holmgren stated he gives credit to the coaching staff and players for the success the Browns had recently but will look at the season as a whole and wants to see progress.
* When asked about the QB situation, Holmgren stated that was something that will need to be asked later on down the road.
* Holmgren stated he will hire a GM and that he, the GM and the HC will look at the Browns and start planning on how to get them back on track. Holmgren believes Mangini and staff laid the foundation down regardless who the coaching staff is and that the Browns are something you can build apon, not blow up and rebuild.
* Holmgren stated the biggest reason he came to Cleveland was because of owner Randy Lerner.
* Holmgren will not coach in 2010.
* Holmgren wants a West Coast Offense and will lobby with his coach for it's implementation.
* Holmgren stated the most important thing he learned while he was GM/HC of Seattle was to make the important changes sooner than later.

MattyFos
12-29-2009, 04:09 PM
I say we try to get Nnamdi Asomugha from Oakland this off-season. Him opposite Wright in Rob Ryan's scheme and Berry/Mays floating in center field would take our Pass defense to near top.. couple that with a transition to a 4-3 and move KWimb to DE.. we could win with defense just by making a couple changes... LB's would be Roth, Jackson, Barton/Spikes/Bowens.. DL.. Wimbley, Coleman, Rogers, Williams.. That's enticing

keylime_5
01-03-2010, 05:03 PM
4 wins in a row. Please don't fire our coach.

The Unseen
01-03-2010, 05:04 PM
Good game guys. You may be on the way up.

j05son
01-03-2010, 07:41 PM
4 wins in a row. Please don't fire our coach.

My thoughts exactly.

Good game guys. You may be on the way up.

Thanks Unseen. I liked how Jacksonville never gave up and they shook our hands after the game (unlike Pittsburgh who ran into the locker room embarrassed).

PickedOffTwice
01-04-2010, 10:30 AM
Good game guys. You may be on the way up.

Thanks, man.

Bittersweet ending. On the one hand I'm really happy that we won 4 games in a row, beat Pittsburgh and Eric Mangini made the best case possible. I honestly believe, that the guy did an outstanding job this year and I always supported what he did. Hopefully we keep him. This guy will be a household name in the NFL 15 years from now.

The team impressed me with an outstanding attitude. They presented themselves on the field like any athlete should: Despite "nothing" to play for they gave everything they got and acted like role models on the field. Lots of players improved over the whole season. There were guys coming from the practice squad, free agency or waiver wires and emerged as key contributors. One could really see the excellent work ethic and team spirit on sundays. For the first time since quite long I can again be proud of the team I have supported my whole life.

On the other hand, it looks like we lost Eric Berry. I wanted us to draft the guy. A good organisation should get good players and improve the team regardless of draft position, though.

What really concerns me is the Holmgren situation. We hired Holmgren right when the team started to turn the corner. Bad timing on Randy Lerners part, who has not attended a game since. How can you make such a hire in the middle of a season? Now we have a guy who is unproven as a GM / president on a 50 million $ deal. He will probably fire the coach after an excellent first rebuilding year. So chances are, we will go out and blow everything up again. I am seriously concerned that might happen.

For me the best case would be, that Holmgren hires a proven GM (whoever that may be), who can make the most of our 11 draft picks. Mangini and Holmgren will get on the same page so the coach can continue to establish the culture he has so far. Holmgren will NOT get into coaching or GM-ing at all and will concentrate on hiring the right guys.

Having said this, happy new year people.

j05son
01-04-2010, 05:58 PM
Sadly, a lot of media outlets are stating Mangini will not be back next year.

Also a lot of rumors that Zorn has already been contacted my Holmgren and will be apart of the Browns in some capacity.

j05son
01-05-2010, 12:07 PM
Holmgren press conference at 4. Holmgren stated in his last press he learned he needed to make the important decisions sooner than later.

Possible GM announced? Mangini's and/or staff's fate? Zorn on his way? News on contract situations with Cribbs, Harrison and/or Roth?

MattyFos
01-05-2010, 02:35 PM
Holmgren press conference at 4. Holmgren stated in his last press he learned he needed to make the important decisions sooner than later.

Possible GM announced? Mangini's and/or staff's fate? Zorn on his way? News on contract situations with Cribbs, Harrison and/or Roth?

By my understanding, the 4 oclock press conference will not have any major announcements..
If Mangini is out- possible coaching candidate.
Mooch
Gruden
Jim Zorn
Marty Mornhinweg
Ray Rhodes
John Fox
If Mangini is retained- possible Offensive coordinators
Charlie Weis
Marty Mornhinweg
Jim Zorn

Now, discuss a combination of these coaches with or without Mangini.. who you'd like, who you wouldn't...

One quick thing about 'Morningwood' (that's what Detroit fans call him).. coaches have a higher chance of success when they are hired in their 40's (age) and they are not first time coaches.. Shannahan, Belichick, Parcells, Holmgren (?), Denny Green (first job was northwestern)

So hiring a coach like Morningwood with a career 5-27 record wouldn't exactly be a bad hire. The situation is set up for success b/c of his experience and his age (47).

I would like any of those coaches except Jim Zorn.. including Mangini (he is my last choice) as head coach. Combined with any of the three offensive coordinators.. Zorn was a QB coach at Seattle before he was hired at Washington. He's familiar with Holmgren, though he's never been an Offensive coordinator. I'm comfortable with Mornhinweg's familiarity with what Holmgren wants and expects in the WCO.
My number one choice would be Charlie Weis (Notre Dame fan). I think he is an offensive genius, and he could get Brady Quinn to where we need him.

Now, discuss

fear the elf
01-05-2010, 03:42 PM
I'd like to hold onto Mangini, provided he and Holmgren can make the whole WCO/4-3/3-4 thing work, and pick up Weis as the OC. He is obviously an excellent offensive mind and I think he would be good for Brady (he would probably already know most of the system which would allow him some stability/continuity in his short career).

Although I hated Mangini in the middle of the season, I think that the culture he is putting in place is starting to come around. That, and the way the players seem to have responded, both to Mangini's personality and on the field in terms of W's, I think you have to give him another shot and more time to try and make his "plan" work.

That is what I would like to see.

Stamper
01-05-2010, 03:43 PM
one thing is for certain, we need a new OC. db might be the worst coordinator in the league

j05son
01-05-2010, 04:26 PM
one thing is for certain, we need a new OC. db might be the worst coordinator in the league

Nice to see you back around the Browns boards...I also agree with you on Daboll.


Back to the Mike Holmgren presser:

Here is a summary of some of the topics covered:

Q: What is your timetable for hirings/firings?:

Holmgren: We’re going to make some decisions by the end of the week, hopefully. There are some rules in place by the NFL and it might take a little longer than I had hoped.

Q: What are your plans for Eric Mangini?:

Holmgren: That’s an important question for the organization. I met with Eric briefly, but not THE meeting. We have a meeting scheduled for Wednesday. I did give him a list of things to think about before our meeting. In fairness to Eric, so he’s not blind-sided it’s important for him to know where I’m coming from.

Q: Does Mangini have a legitimate chance to be retained?

Holmgren: Absolutely, or I wouldn’t schedule this meeting. I don’t dance much. I shoot straight. We’re going to have a meeting, maybe a couple of meetings and hope to have this established by the end of the week. In fairness to everybody, let’s just let this play out.

Q: Does the type of offense or defense you ran have any bearing on being on the same page?:

Holmgren: All I care about is for the organization to win. If you run a 3-4 defense and win, that’s all that matters. I learned the West Coast offense from Bill Walsh and if you ask him about it he’d say he learned it from Paul Brown.

Q: How important is it to have the personnel people and coaches together on personnel decisions?

Holmgren: I’ve coached a long time and I know the only way you win in this league is if the (president), coach and GM are all on the same page. It all boils down to egos getting in the way and it destroys the team. My goal is to have everyone in this building working together for the same goal.

Q: Is there any possibility you will coach this year?:

Holmgren: I’m not going to coach the team, but I think I can contribute offensively I’m not going to coach the team.

When I made the decision to be away from the game after coaching, I realized I missed it. I had to make a decision if I would stay on the field or approach the NFL and a team in a different way as a new challenge.

Q: What intrigues you about this job?:

Holmgren: Randy Lerner approached us and we had some interesting talks and the rest is history.The Browns have a wonderful, wonderful history and we want to get them to the playoffs and the Super Bowl. I think we did a good job in Green Bay and in Seattle of fixing things a little bit and getting to the Super Bowl.

When we won the Super Bowl in Green Bay it had been a long time since Coach Lombardi’s team had been there. There were so many more people who enjoyed that win and deserved the credit. We’re going to try very, very hard to get everyone pulling in the right direction.

Q: Is Tom Heckert a candidate for the GM job?:

Holmgren: Tom is coming in tomorrow more. There are others scheduled but I will not divulge them.

Q: How many people do you think you’ll hire?:

Holmgren: That’s in the process of being decided right now. We have a number of things we’re looking at. Some of that is re-structuring. We’re going to look at everything and stream line things.Right now, I have a lot of titles. I don’t want to do it all. We’re going to hire a general manager. Very few teams, I will be involved, but as to who will have the final say I can’t say. It’s a mistake if whoever has the responsibility to make the draft decisions doesn’t listen to the coaches or assistant coaches input. Ron Wolf said he would never draft a player that I didn’t want. Part of my job is to make sure everyone has input.

Q: Do you think you might coach again?:

Holmgren: I think I said I wasn’t going to coach this year. I enjoyed it. It was so much fun and I know I’m going to miss it. My challenge is to take my new role and help the coach be as successful as he can be. I hope I can feel as good about that as I did about coaching.

Q: Did you enjoy your year off from football?:

Holmgren: It was invigorating. I enjoyed my time off. I needed to take a break. I didn’t know if I was going to get back into football, when I took a break. However, there’s something inside of me, the challenge of rebuilding things.

Q: What are your impressions of Randy Lerner?:

Holmgren: Randy Lerner so wants this football team to be great for all the fans. When you get that type of support, that’s exciting.

Q: Are you going to extend Josh Cribbs’ contract?:

Holmgren: That’s the question. We’ve been in contract with his representatives, even when I was in Arizona. I believe players should be rewarded. Our view and the agent’s views sometimes are different. I want Josh here and he has three years left on his existing contract, so it’s a little unprecedented in that regards, but it’s just the business part of it we’re going through now.

Q: Does the final four games sway you?:

Holmgren: Well, they won four games in a row and that’s pretty good. You have to give me some time to take off my coaching hat since I’m now a big shot executive. I’ve probably been in situations where I said (the organization was a mess). The team finished strong, but there’s more than the final four games involved here.

Q: Will you be over the whole organization?:

Holmgren: My responsibility is for the organization and so I’ll take a role in everything, but I’m not going to micromanage.

Q: Have you met with Randy Lerner today?:

Holmgren: The owner was going to be here but couldn’t travel due to the weather.

Q: Do you have a list of potential head coaches if you let Mangini go?:

Holmgren: That’s a little premature before I meet with Eric .If I spent a lot of time on a list that might have been a waste of time. I’ve always kept a list of coaches.

Q: Can winning at the end of the season help you in the future?:

Holmgren: We were 4-9 in my third year and got hot and won our last three games and that was a spring board for our success later. I think you can build on that absolutely.

PickedOffTwice
01-05-2010, 05:53 PM
Just a gut feeling: From how Holmgren words his answers I think Mangini will be gone by Thursday...

Which is sad if you ask me.

j05son
01-05-2010, 07:06 PM
Just a gut feeling: From how Holmgren words his answers I think Mangini will be gone by Thursday...

Which is sad if you ask me.

I'm really not trying to read into it but I think it could go either way really. I really think the way Holmgren chose his words leaves it so it could be deciphered in multiple ways.

Hopefully your gut feeling is wrong though. ^_-

MattyFos
01-05-2010, 09:06 PM
I'm really not trying to read into it but I think it could go either way really. I really think the way Holmgren chose his words leaves it so it could be deciphered in multiple ways.

Hopefully your gut feeling is wrong though. ^_-

I didn't want Mangini, hated Mangini mid-season, and still don't want Mangini. BUT, I think he has earned himself some favor in the fan base. That's saying a lot from where he was prior to the Thursday night game... I think we still have to take the season as a whole as to whether to retain him.

Record- 5-11 in a first season is an automatic retain.

Lockerroom- He has won over most if not all of the players. That is a good sign

Fanbase- Though the fans are sympathetic to him, they still weren't buying tickets to see the Browns

Personnel Decisions- Alright draft. James Davis was injured, Alex Mack will be a solid pro, Mohammed Massaquoi can be a good receiver, we never saw Brian Robiskie, Maiva is a special teamser at best, same with Veikune (spelling).
Traded away Kellend Winslow for [essentially] Mohammed Massaquoi.
Traded Braylon Edwards for Chansi Stuckey, Jason Trusnik, and a third round pick.
On the plus side, traded down in the draft to pick up a lot picks, we have 11 draft picks for 2010.
Picked up Matt Roth and Evan Moore. Two good players. Played Jerome Harrison (out of neccesity)

Threw George Kokinis under the bus after Mangini traded Braylon Edwards without the GM (Kokinis') knowledge.

I say cut ties with him. He has earned another year with his win/loss record. But 1-11 pissed off a lot of good fans. And trading away known talent for draft picks and special teams players pissed off me.

PickedOffTwice
01-06-2010, 03:56 AM
Personnel Decisions- Alright draft. James Davis was injured, Alex Mack will be a solid pro, Mohammed Massaquoi can be a good receiver, we never saw Brian Robiskie, Maiva is a special teamser at best, same with Veikune (spelling).
Traded away Kellend Winslow for [essentially] Mohammed Massaquoi.
Traded Braylon Edwards for Chansi Stuckey, Jason Trusnik, and a third round pick.
On the plus side, traded down in the draft to pick up a lot picks, we have 11 draft picks for 2010.
Picked up Matt Roth and Evan Moore. Two good players. Played Jerome Harrison (out of neccesity)

Threw George Kokinis under the bus after Mangini traded Braylon Edwards without the GM (Kokinis') knowledge.

I say cut ties with him. He has earned another year with his win/loss record. But 1-11 pissed off a lot of good fans. And trading away known talent for draft picks and special teams players pissed off me.

I liked the trading of our "star" players to be honest. We were not going anywhere this year, so why would you keep 2 overpaid players who do nothing but ***** around? KII, he actually has skills to back it up but Edwards, man, the guy is not a good receiver in this league. Period. People in the national media always labeled him a "supertalented star". Guess how many Cleveland games these guys watch? And go ask some Jets fans what they think of the trade.

You should also see, that mangini only traded those star players who wouldn't be down with a team first attitude. Thomas is still there. Rogers is still there. Wright is still there.

Sometimes you just have to make some steps back when you start over fresh.

keylime_5
01-06-2010, 02:20 PM
okay, I'm all for keeping Mangini. Not only b/c of what he's done to close out the season and the foundation he's layed, but also b/c if we do fire him the coaches we've been rumored to maybe go after (Mornhiweg, Marriuci, etc.) don't sound very intriguing. Mostly failed NFL head coaches or guys who would be just Holmgren puppets. Gruden is a longshot with his contract to MNF. However...the rumor about us bringing in John Fox sounds good. If we fire Mangini he is one guy who I would be happy with. He's a great coach with a good track record who would work well with Holmgren and the Cleveland fan base. Proven head coach who has been to a super bowl and built a team from being 1-15 into NFC South Champs every other year. Mangini or Fox, either way it'd be cool with me.

MattyFos
01-06-2010, 06:30 PM
I liked the trading of our "star" players to be honest. We were not going anywhere this year, so why would you keep 2 overpaid players who do nothing but ***** around? KII, he actually has skills to back it up but Edwards, man, the guy is not a good receiver in this league. Period. People in the national media always labeled him a "supertalented star". Guess how many Cleveland games these guys watch? And go ask some Jets fans what they think of the trade.

You should also see, that mangini only traded those star players who wouldn't be down with a team first attitude. Thomas is still there. Rogers is still there. Wright is still there.

Sometimes you just have to make some steps back when you start over fresh.

To be fair, Mangini never gave Kellen the chance to be a team first guy. That was one of the first things Mangini did.. trading away Kellen.
About Edwards, I'd still rather have an uber-talented ego maniac who drops 10 passes a year. If my other choice was the very limited talent Chansi Stuckey, who has drop problems too.
If I had to choose one of the guys, I'd pick Kellen. He had almost 800 yards and 5 TD's for the Bucs.. Thats with three different QB's Byron Leftwich, Josh Johnson, and Josh Freeman.. A journey man, a run first passer, and a rookie.. Kellen played above and beyond the team around him..
And with Braylon, maybe Jets fans are not happy with him bc Rex Ryan didn't want him getting the 55 receptions that would have given the Browns a second rounder instead of a third.

Brown Leader
01-06-2010, 08:10 PM
okay, I'm all for keeping Mangini. Not only b/c of what he's done to close out the season and the foundation he's layed, but also b/c if we do fire him the coaches we've been rumored to maybe go after (Mornhiweg, Marriuci, etc.) don't sound very intriguing. Mostly failed NFL head coaches or guys who would be just Holmgren puppets. Gruden is a longshot with his contract to MNF. However...the rumor about us bringing in John Fox sounds good. If we fire Mangini he is one guy who I would be happy with. He's a great coach with a good track record who would work well with Holmgren and the Cleveland fan base. Proven head coach who has been to a super bowl and built a team from being 1-15 into NFC South Champs every other year. Mangini or Fox, either way it'd be cool with me.

I'm not crazy about Fox because it means dumping the 34 which finally got entertaining to watch during the last 4.

wonderbredd24
01-06-2010, 08:31 PM
Winslow was damaged goods. It was a fantastic trade. Massaquoi can clearly play and we still have another pick to use. Winslow looks good now on a horrid Tampa team, but his long term future there is sketchy at best.

Edwards' problem is body control. When he goes full speed, he can't control his body so the ball moves too much when he's trying to catch it, which is why he jumps for virtually every single pass thrown at him. Whether or not he chooses to deal with that is up to him, but he frankly sucks.

I hope the following happens. I hope they retain Eric Mangini, Rob Ryan, and Brian Cox, and Brad Seely. The rest need replaced and if I was Mike Holmgren, I'd call Mike Leach to interview for the OC job. The guy is eccentric, but he's a savant with offenses and is fantastic with QBs.

I'd try to trade Shaun Rogers and Eric Steinbach while they still have value. Eric Steinbach was mediocre at best this year and if they continue with the trend of getting bigger linemen, he simply does not fit. He struggled to get to 300lbs and our center outweighs him by 15 pounds. He's miscast here and I think a ZBS team might give us a decent pick for him.

Athyba Rubin is better at the fundamentals of being a nose tackle within the 3-4 than Rogers. Shaun Rogers is far and away the better player and athlete, but if they can't deal him, move him to defensive end let him wreak havoc from there. Rubin on the other hand, enabled our linebackers to make far more plays than when Rogers was in there. I wanted Rubin in '08, we got him, and I think he's a long term solution to start there. He should keep getting better and they should draft another guy like Rubin to develop into that position.

I see absolutely no benefit to switching to the 4-3. None whatsoever. I see no one out there right now that would be better than Mangini. Hold onto him another year and if it doesn't work, then Holmgren can take a swing at Gruden if he wants or someone else

jriles0522
01-06-2010, 10:30 PM
Holmgren offered Cribbs 1.4 million/yr. WHAT A JOKE!

******* Roscoe Parrish and Andra Davis make around 4 mil and Hester 5.5 mil.

Cribbs is better than all of those guys by a mile.

I'll give Holmgren the benefit of the doubt on most everything, but not this.

If he doesn't get it done, then **** him.

Cribbs twitters:

"Thanks everyone, I love playing for the browns & put my all in to it, but it doesn’t look good 4me at this point on returning…”

“I don’t believe I made the to do list for the team in 2010….”

– Cleveland returner/wide receiver Josh Cribbs

Iamcanadian
01-07-2010, 12:48 AM
Cribbs signed a contract which is good for 3 more years, he has no option but to play for the Browns. He may hold out but if Holmgren doesn't want to give him more, he doesn't have to.
This is why a rookie salary cap will not likely be put into place, for every top 10 pick who is overpaid, you can get 2 or 3 rookies tied up for years at a low pay with no choice but to play.

jriles0522
01-07-2010, 06:00 AM
Cribbs signed a contract which is good for 3 more years, he has no option but to play for the Browns. He may hold out but if Holmgren doesn't want to give him more, he doesn't have to.
This is why a rookie salary cap will not likely be put into place, for every top 10 pick who is overpaid, you can get 2 or 3 rookies tied up for years at a low pay with no choice but to play.

Actually one of his options is forcing a trade. I doubt Holmgren would let him sit out all year. Sometimes players outplay their contracts. For 3 years he played for essentially a minimum salary.

He deserves a raise, just like Holmgren said. If the longsnapper who is on the field 8-10 times per game gets 5 million, Cribbs deserves at least that. I'd like to see 5 years 25-30 million. More than fair.

wonderbredd24
01-07-2010, 06:28 AM
if Holmgren gives Cribbs $25-30 million over 5 years, then he's a moron.

Devin Hester's contract was idiotic and he doesn't even do kick returns anymore... he's a mediocre receiver.

Roscoe Parrish, while his contract is still stupid, at least plays another position competently.

Andre Davis' contract just shows that Houston was stupid.

Does Cribbs deserve more money? Sure, but at the end of the day, he's a kick returner who can't play another position outside of wildcat QB and kick returners have short shelf lives in general. And he does have 3 years left on his contract, so he's stuck. What's he gonna do? Hold out. I doubt he can afford it.

fear the elf
01-07-2010, 07:14 AM
if Holmgren gives Cribbs $25-30 million over 5 years, then he's a moron.

Devin Hester's contract was idiotic and he doesn't even do kick returns anymore... he's a mediocre receiver.

Roscoe Parrish, while his contract is still stupid, at least plays another position competently.

Andre Davis' contract just shows that Houston was stupid.

Does Cribbs deserve more money? Sure, but at the end of the day, he's a kick returner who can't play another position outside of wildcat QB and kick returners have short shelf lives in general. And he does have 3 years left on his contract, so he's stuck. What's he gonna do? Hold out. I doubt he can afford it.

True, but he does play our two most productive offensive positions (returner and wildcat QB) right now, and does it better than possibly anyone in the league on a bad team. It probably wouldn't be the best deal ever conceived by a GM, but for a player that does so much and wants to play for our bad team so bad, I wouldn't be upset at all if he got 4-5 mil a year.

fear the elf
01-07-2010, 09:15 AM
This sounds bad.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8158f951&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

"We're going to formally put in a request for a trade," J.R. Rickert, Cribbs' other agent, told NFL Network's Jason La Canfora. "He will not set foot in that facility again. If they had offered even something like $2.5 million per season, we could have worked with them, but to me, this offer is indefensible."

Rickert said Browns vice president of football administration Dawn Aponte, who handles contract negotiations, told him the offer was final and that Holmgren was in agreement with her.

"Dawn said this was it, this was their offer," Rickert said. "She said it would be 1.4 today, 1.4 in March and 1.4 in August."

...

"I did all the playing I'm going to play on this contract," Cribbs said. "I ain't doing nothing. I'm not showing my face until it's right."

PickedOffTwice
01-07-2010, 10:02 AM
This sounds bad.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8158f951&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

The Josh Cribbs Situation is a prime example why a player should hold out for a new contract every chance he gets. The reason: THIS is how owners treat the players...

All the time they told him "play, and your contract will be taken care of after the season". Didn't happen last year. Now this joke offer. All while the best return man in the league is playing for league minimum, giving everything he got for the team.

Right now I'm ashamed to be a Browns fan.

noondog
01-07-2010, 11:07 AM
Cribbs' agent has already basically set a figure of $2.5 per year, which I think is good for both sides...definitely not unreasonable. Holmgren would be foolish to let this drag on as Cribbs is a very important cog in the Cleveland wheel right now, both from an on-field standpoint as well as a fan standpoint.

j05son
01-07-2010, 04:09 PM
Looks like Mangini will be retained (http://cle.scout.com/a.z?s=149&p=9&c=2&cid=935847&nid=4691965&fhn=1)

PickedOffTwice
01-07-2010, 05:43 PM
Looks like Mangini will be retained (http://cle.scout.com/a.z?s=149&p=9&c=2&cid=935847&nid=4691965&fhn=1)

w00t!! (10 chars)

MattyFos
01-08-2010, 01:00 PM
Pay Cribbs 5 million a year? That is ridiculous. He is worth 2 million max. I personally think he should play out the remainder of his contract. Returnmen have very short lived careers. In most cases returnmen have a 4-6 year window in which they are special. Cribbs is sitting in year 5. So you want to offer him 30 million over 5 years? Seriously? What if he is just like every other returnman? What if this past year was his last productive year? We are going to be paying him that much money to do nothing! We all know he can't play receiver, and the Wildcat is just a gimmick offense. It's not a stable, we only run it about 8 times a game.. 30 million isn't worth a kick returner and a wildcat QB who can't play receiver.

If we can get decent trade value for him, I say pull the trigger and let someone else pay him.. not out of spite... just b/c I think the Cribbs era is coming to a close on the field.

MattyFos
01-08-2010, 01:03 PM
To be honest, Holmgren has a long to do list. Cribbs agent didn't speak with Holmgren. Give holmgren a break here guys, he said he thinks players should be payed accordingly... we'll see what happens when he's done interviewing all the people who are more important that Cribbs.

Brown Leader
01-11-2010, 01:27 AM
if Holmgren gives Cribbs $25-30 million over 5 years, then he's a moron.

Devin Hester's contract was idiotic and he doesn't even do kick returns anymore... he's a mediocre receiver.

Roscoe Parrish, while his contract is still stupid, at least plays another position competently.

Andre Davis' contract just shows that Houston was stupid.

Does Cribbs deserve more money? Sure, but at the end of the day, he's a kick returner who can't play another position outside of wildcat QB and kick returners have short shelf lives in general. And he does have 3 years left on his contract, so he's stuck. What's he gonna do? Hold out. I doubt he can afford it.

Pay Cribbs 5 million a year? That is ridiculous. He is worth 2 million max. I personally think he should play out the remainder of his contract. Returnmen have very short lived careers. In most cases returnmen have a 4-6 year window in which they are special. Cribbs is sitting in year 5. So you want to offer him 30 million over 5 years? Seriously? What if he is just like every other returnman? What if this past year was his last productive year? We are going to be paying him that much money to do nothing! We all know he can't play receiver, and the Wildcat is just a gimmick offense. It's not a stable, we only run it about 8 times a game.. 30 million isn't worth a kick returner and a wildcat QB who can't play receiver.

If we can get decent trade value for him, I say pull the trigger and let someone else pay him.. not out of spite... just b/c I think the Cribbs era is coming to a close on the field.


Returnmen have short careers? Really? I guess if they suck, but if they're good and stay healthy, they stick around forever.

In case you didn't notice, we wouldn't have won any games this year without Cribbs. As a game changer he was probably the best in the NFL this season. Not many players in the league can single handedly defeat teams. His value is beyond that of a returner/wildcat guy. As a RB/WR/KR/ST he's the most dynamic offensive player in the league-that offer was indeed an insult.

The Josh Cribbs Situation is a prime example why a player should hold out for a new contract every chance he gets. The reason: THIS is how owners treat the players...

All the time they told him "play, and your contract will be taken care of after the season". Didn't happen last year. Now this joke offer. All while the best return man in league history is playing for league minimum, giving everything he got for the team.

Right now I'm ashamed to be a Browns fan.

This.

Iamcanadian
01-11-2010, 03:07 AM
Plenty of GM/Presidents tell their players to shove it since they can only hold out for so long before they show up to play. Some give in and give their players what they deserve but not too many.
Hard to say which way Holmgren will go. If Cribbs is pissed and has an off year, the team will likely lose a ton of money because he is one of the few guys who sells tickets for this franchise. They could lose a lot more than 5 million dollars if the fans turn away from buying tickets especially if he holds out for a long time.
Hopefully some sort of compromise is reached and he comes into camp happy.

MattyFos
01-11-2010, 03:15 PM
The most dynamic offensive player in the league?
I saw a guy who couldn't run a sharp route to save his life, a guy who doesn't know where the first down marker is.
We didn't see much running between the tackles (which I would have liked) but when he lines up as wildcat we're basically airmailing our play to the defense. How many wildcat runs were for 0-2 yards?
I know how important Cribbs was to our wins this year. I made that very argument on another site when we were ranking him on all-time return man list. He shows up when we need him... but 5 million a year is WAY too much and that was the point I'm making.

Return men stick around forever if they're good and healthy? Name one who played returnman (primarily) for more than 6 years.. They all have to make a transition to another position. Hester tries to play receiver, Metcalf tried playing running back.. Cribbs is trying to play receiver.
When I say primarily.. don't give me Deion.. b/c he was a corner and that was why he was on the team. Punt return Deion was a bonus for the Cowboys.

Brown Leader
01-11-2010, 08:46 PM
The most dynamic offensive player in the league?
I saw a guy who couldn't run a sharp route to save his life, a guy who doesn't know where the first down marker is.
We didn't see much running between the tackles (which I would have liked) but when he lines up as wildcat we're basically airmailing our play to the defense. How many wildcat runs were for 0-2 yards?
I know how important Cribbs was to our wins this year. I made that very argument on another site when we were ranking him on all-time return man list. He shows up when we need him... but 5 million a year is WAY too much and that was the point I'm making.

Return men stick around forever if they're good and healthy? Name one who played returnman (primarily) for more than 6 years.. They all have to make a transition to another position. Hester tries to play receiver, Metcalf tried playing running back.. Cribbs is trying to play receiver.
When I say primarily.. don't give me Deion.. b/c he was a corner and that was why he was on the team. Punt return Deion was a bonus for the Cowboys.

Dynamic-as in the ability to make a game changing play at numerous positions. Consistently did this maby more than any other player in 09.

Averaged about 6ypc or so right?

Didn't realize you were talking about strictly return guys-who does anymore anyways? Only guy comes to mind is Brian Mitchell i guess.

Metcalf tried playing running back.. That's harsh. My favorite player growing up was a great offensive player at WR/RB/KR. Cribbs is WR/RB/Wildcat QB-which by the way is going nowhere.

My point is that offering him 1.4 again was an insult.

MattyFos
01-15-2010, 12:47 PM
Dynamic-as in the ability to make a game changing play at numerous positions. Consistently did this maby more than any other player in 09.

Averaged about 6ypc or so right?

Didn't realize you were talking about strictly return guys-who does anymore anyways? Only guy comes to mind is Brian Mitchell i guess.

Metcalf tried playing running back.. That's harsh. My favorite player growing up was a great offensive player at WR/RB/KR. Cribbs is WR/RB/Wildcat QB-which by the way is going nowhere.

My point is that offering him 1.4 again was an insult.

1.4 may be an insult to Cribbs and to you. But I'm just making the point that the guy throwing Hester money into the conversation is insulting me, the organization and fans who have a knowledge NFL history. He's not worth anything more than 2 million. I just think if Cribbs wants to be a Brown he'd better take the 1.4 and shut up. Or he'll find himself returning for another team next year...

Brown Leader
01-16-2010, 08:17 AM
That's a tough stance to take on a guy who's the best player on his team. I hope Heckart and Holmgrem see more value in our mvp.

wonderbredd24
01-16-2010, 08:20 AM
That's a tough stance to take on a guy who's the best player on his team. I hope Heckart and Holmgrem see more value in our mvp.

He's not the team's MVP and definitely not the best player, but if he were, that says more about how horrid this team rather is than how good Cribbs is

fear the elf
01-16-2010, 12:50 PM
He's not the team's MVP and definitely not the best player, but if he were, that says more about how horrid this team rather is than how good Cribbs is

I see two guys who you could make a case for as better than Josh. Joe Thomas and Shawn Rogers. Yes the team is bad, but to say Josh isn't that good, when everyone knows he is our only weapon, and they know that they have to stop him, and he still produces... Well, I think that's pretty unfair.

j05son
01-16-2010, 06:42 PM
Cribbs isn't the best player on the team. He's a special team ace as well as a RB in the Wild Cat.

Stop with the notions that he needs to be paid some multi-million dollar deal. How can you justify a $20+ mil deal that I've read in this thread for a guy who returns and covers kicks and gets less than 10 touches a game in the offense.

I would even go as far to say that if it's true that the 9ers would offer a first for Cribbs I say go for it.

mattm2482
01-16-2010, 08:08 PM
Browns should stick with Quinn and see how he goes with someone to throw to. Possibly bring in Troy Smith. Vincent Jackson and Miles Austin would be good to pick up in the free agents as well as Brandon Marshall who has yet to find his best form. A big man like jared gaither to cover the right tackle position. Demeco Ryans or Karlos Dansby would help aswell. Joe Haden would be a good pick in the draft and pick up nick collins in the FA otherwise try and move up to take Berry.

Would love to have a strong superstar running back as well. dont know if there is anyone available right now tho, I am still a fan of Reggie Bush and think he could still live up to his potential.

wonderbredd24
01-16-2010, 08:17 PM
Browns should stick with Quinn and see how he goes with someone to throw to. Possibly bring in Troy Smith. Vincent Jackson and Miles Austin would be good to pick up in the free agents as well as Brandon Marshall who has yet to find his best form. A big man like jared gaither to cover the right tackle position. Demeco Ryans or Karlos Dansby would help aswell. Joe Haden would be a good pick in the draft and pick up nick collins in the FA otherwise try and move up to take Berry.

Would love to have a strong superstar running back as well. dont know if there is anyone available right now tho, I am still a fan of Reggie Bush and think he could still live up to his potential.

How realistic of you.

mattm2482
01-16-2010, 08:26 PM
How realistic of you.

i dont mean to get it all mate. i just mean try and get someone. instead of doing nothing.

DeepThreat
01-16-2010, 08:33 PM
And all of those guys are RFA's if there isn't a new CBA.

I'm done with Quinn.

jriles0522
01-17-2010, 11:34 AM
I would trade Cribbs for a first rounder any day. I'd look hard if a mid to high second round was offered too. Name the KR on any of the playoff teams, Harvin? Jones? Bush on punts? A guy at his position won't make you a great team. Those guys are studs at their own positions.

I'd expect DA, and either shaun rogers or corey williams to be moved. Although I like the idea of rogers at DE with rubin in the middle, he may bring great value in a trade too. Call me crazy but I think Williams, now healthy, could bring a 2nd rounder from a 43 team.

MattyFos
01-17-2010, 04:26 PM
I would trade Cribbs for a first rounder any day. I'd look hard if a mid to high second round was offered too. Name the KR on any of the playoff teams, Harvin? Jones? Bush on punts? A guy at his position won't make you a great team. Those guys are studs at their own positions.

I'd expect DA, and either shaun rogers or corey williams to be moved. Although I like the idea of rogers at DE with rubin in the middle, he may bring great value in a trade too. Call me crazy but I think Williams, now healthy, could bring a 2nd rounder from a 43 team.
I agree with the first half of your post.. But I think we need to keep all of the talent we have on our DLine. The game is won on the line of scrimmage.. we need to keep those big versatile guys on D and actually BRING PRESSURE from the linebackers on the opposing QB's.. Our Secondary gets burned most games b/c the opposing QB has all day to stand in the pocket and avoid our 3 man rush. Trading Rogers or Williams away would not be in our best interest.

EDIT*
I think DA will be moved as well. I can see Holmgren drafting a senior QB in the draft like Tony Pike in the mid rounds.

The Canton rep did a piece on our QB situation toady (Sun Jan 17) and how Holmgren likes Tim Tebow. Knowing this, if Tebow falls past the Jaguars and falls into the second.. Holmgren will wither grab him with our pick or trade up for him. Not sure how I feel about this. I think Tebow isn't an ideal QB prospect.. but he has something about him that inspires teams to play better, he's a great guy off the field, and His mechanics are better than most people think.

thule
01-17-2010, 04:37 PM
Is there any smoke to Rogers being moved...or is that just hypothetical. I know last year he wanted to be moved...and with no Cap in place moving him becomes a lot easier for a team to handle now than last year for a field product standpoint.

If a team offered a 2nd round pick to a disgruntled player would it make sense for the Browns. Or is he not disgruntled anymore? I guess I'm just looking for an update on his feelings towards the organization and how likely they'd be to move him to bring in ammunition via the draft or young players.

j05son
01-17-2010, 05:03 PM
Is there any smoke to Rogers being moved...or is that just hypothetical. I know last year he wanted to be moved...and with no Cap in place moving him becomes a lot easier for a team to handle now than last year for a field product standpoint.

If a team offered a 2nd round pick to a disgruntled player would it make sense for the Browns. Or is he not disgruntled anymore? I guess I'm just looking for an update on his feelings towards the organization and how likely they'd be to move him to bring in ammunition via the draft or young players.

I don't know if there's any fire for all the smoke. The media hates Cleveland and all they do is report the supposedly bad and never the real story (like the whole water bottle fine), IMO. Rogers was angry over a "snub" when Mangini walked right by him without saying a word when he was just hired. The two went out to lunch and everything was fine from that point on.

It would make sense to trade Rogers. Like you said, there will be no cap hit and Rogers will be 31. Plus Rubin is an arguably better NT than Rogers is. Rogers is too undisciplined for a 3-4 NT often shooting the gaps and ruining the gap integrity. The Browns defense took a leap forward once Rogers went on IR with a broken leg and Rubin stepped in.

I wouldn't be shocked to see either Rogers or Corey Williams traded this offseason. I personally would prefer to keep Rogers and try him at DE but if we get something to help us win later, I would be all for it.

j05son
01-17-2010, 05:30 PM
Some guys on the "hot seat" and their current contract status...

Brady Quinn
2010 700k
2011 700k
2012 FREE AGENT

Derek Anderson
2010 7.45M + 2M Roster Bonus (due in March)
2011 FREE AGENT

Eric Steinbach
2010 5.75M
2011 6.25M
2012 6.00M
2013 6.25M
2014 FREE AGENT

Shaun Rogers
2010 6.9M
2011 5.5M
2012 5.6M
2013 5.5M
2014 7M (voidable)
2015 FREE AGENT

Corey Williams
2010 4.2M + 1.7 Roster Bonus (March?)
2011 4.9M
2012 4.9M
2013 5.4M
2014 FREE AGENT

Donte Stallworth
2010 1.5M
2011 2.775M
2012 4.55M
2013 5.65M
2014 5.95M
2015 FREE AGENT

MattyFos
01-17-2010, 09:15 PM
I don't know if there's any fire for all the smoke. The media hates Cleveland and all they do is report the supposedly bad and never the real story (like the whole water bottle fine), IMO. Rogers was angry over a "snub" when Mangini walked right by him without saying a word when he was just hired. The two went out to lunch and everything was fine from that point on.

It would make sense to trade Rogers. Like you said, there will be no cap hit and Rogers will be 31. Plus Rubin is an arguably better NT than Rogers is. Rogers is too undisciplined for a 3-4 NT often shooting the gaps and ruining the gap integrity. The Browns defense took a leap forward once Rogers went on IR with a broken leg and Rubin stepped in.

I wouldn't be shocked to see either Rogers or Corey Williams traded this offseason. I personally would prefer to keep Rogers and try him at DE but if we get something to help us win later, I would be all for it.

Then slide Rogers to DE. He's too talented to trade him away.... Well, I actually made this same argument for K2 and Braylon.. so I guess this argument falls on deaf ears (Mangini's)

j05son
01-17-2010, 10:30 PM
Then slide Rogers to DE. He's too talented to trade him away.... Well, I actually made this same argument for K2 and Braylon.. so I guess this argument falls on deaf ears (Mangini's)

I was for the Winslow and Edwards trade.

Winslow was one of my favorite Browns players. He was tough, had a rare size/speed combo, great hands and was a playmaker although he was definitely a liability in blocking. He left a void when we traded him to Tampa, but look at all the pros in the trade. We ended up Mohammed Massoquoi who will be a legit starting WR, we don't have to pay Winslow high contract, we don't have to try and guess how much longer Winslow can be effective with his (insert number) knee surgeries and the fact that it seems like he's always playing hurt (that separated shoulder his last season in Cleveland), a fifth round pick still to add even more to the trade and the fact that Evan Moore while young and only a handful of games, looks to be a promising player at the position.

Braylon has had one good season in his entire career, has been nothing special for New York to the point that there's a ton of speculation of him not being retained next year. Braylon is facing a suspension to start next season and a suspended 180 jail sentence for punching LeBron's friend. “Am I worried about him getting a reputation for dropping the football? No. Because let’s be honest — he’s earned it.”

New York got an under-preforming WR who is still battling issues catching the ball, plus off the field issues, is going to be a FA and want more $$$ than his ass is actually worth. We got Stuckey who hasn't been anything special, Trusnik who is a great special teamer and spot LB a 3rd (could have been a 2nd if Edwards wasn't so bad) and a 5th.

While Rogers still has value and could succeed at DE can he be effective in 2 years or so when we can start being competitive? He's turning 31 and coming off of a broken leg. I wouldn't mind keeping him, playing him at DE and NT and having him be in Cleveland for the rest of his career, but I also wouldn't mind trading him away and getting good value for him.

Rogers (or what we get in return for Rogers) will help us either way, but Anderson, Stallworth and Corey Williams all need to go.

MattyFos
01-18-2010, 10:13 AM
Alright, we essentially traded Kellen for MoMass Kellen had 884 yards and 5 TD's for Tamps Bay. Kellen also had THREE different QB's. Josh Johnson (Runner), Byron Leftwich (Journey man now-a-days) Josh Freeman (Rookie)
Those are stellar numbers and you can make a case for Kellen's QB situation 1. worse than the Browns 2. inconsistent at best. How many passes did Kellen catch in Brady's debut last year v.s. Denver.. I think 8 or 9 possibly 10. Wouldn't it be smart to keep Kellen.. you know.. b/c our he was our STARTING QUARTERBACKS FAVORITE TARGET! Yes, he hurt his shoulder last year.. but he didn't miss any games til the end of the season when we gave up and were playing Ken Dorsey and Bruce Gradkowski. He also hurt his shoulder in 2007 and played the entire season. He was quoted as saying he couldn't brush his own teeth until the Thursday after games. He was riddled with injuries.. but when you're 6'4 and have a big bady.. there's a good chance somebody will hit you more often than not. He played through injuries. Then gets screwed by Phil Savage and the filthy Browns training facilities giving him a staph infection (Not the first Brown to get one.. Bentley, Jo Juri come to mind.)
I want to address your MoMass good starter and Braylon I don't know what you said.. was it not good in New York.. I wrote the following on a Cleveland Sports website.. I copied and pasted it for all of my bud's here at DC Forum. I hope you enjoy it.. maybe it'll open your eyes on how "ineffective" Braylon was for the NYJ..
.
.
So I crunched the numbers of Braylon and Sanchez then Massaquoi and BADQ (Brady-Anderson-Derek-Quinn).. Braylon played with Sanchez for only 11 games (Sanchez sat out a game, I subtracted Braylon’s number from that game). Then I crunched the numbers of MoMass (15 games… minus the Denver game, when he got shut out)and combined the numbers of Quinn (minus Denver game) and Anderson.
All of these Braylon numbers are with Sanchez at QB. All of the MoMass numbers are combined DA and BQ (BADQ)

Braylon averaged 3.18 catches/game, 49.18 yards/game, 0.36 TD’s/game

MoMass averaged 2.66 catches/game, 41.6 yards/game, 0.2 TD’s/game

Then I did percentages of Braylon to Sanchez’ stats as a whole and MoMass to BADQ’s stats as a whole.

Braylon caught 24% of Sanchez’ completions, resulting in 29% of Sanchez’ yards, and 50% of Sanchez’ TD’s (In those 11 games)

MoMass caught 17% of BADQ’s completions, resulting in 23% of BADQ’s yards, and 25% of BADQ’s TD’s (In those 15 games)

Take those numbers as you want. I’m running on energy drinks and no sleep. And I miss Barylon.. MoMass is no substitute

fear the elf
01-18-2010, 10:28 AM
lots of stuff...

I'm not totally sure what you were going for with the Braylon/MoMass comparison. You are comparing a 5th year player to a Rookie, and the stats are not significantly better at all. Extrapolating your calculations across 16 games:

Braylon: 51 - 787 - 6

MoMass: 43 - 666 - 3

These are terrible stat lines for any #1 WR.

About Kellen. You can make a case that it was a bad move... but you can make a case the other way too. I'm not sure how I feel. I hated him at first, but he really grew on me.

MattyFos
01-18-2010, 10:37 AM
I'm not totally sure what you were going for with the Braylon/MoMass comparison. You are comparing a 5th year player to a Rookie, and the stats are not significantly better at all. Extrapolating your calculations across 16 games:

Braylon: 51 - 787 - 6

MoMass: 43 - 666 - 3

These are terrible stat lines for any #1 WR.

About Kellen. You can make a case that it was a bad move... but you can make a case the other way too. I'm not sure how I feel. I hated him at first, but he really grew on me.

yes, I'm comparing a 5th year to a rook.. I'm also going on a game status, not the whole. And Braylon with Sanchez (rook) v.s MoMass and DABQ (1 pro bowl and essentially a guy in his rookie season as starts are concerned). Sanchez didn't light up the stat sheet.. but Braylon was the shining light in their passing game.. yes, his number were down from 2007.. but Sanchez didn't throw for 3000+ yrds and 30+ TD's like DA did in 2007

keylime_5
01-18-2010, 10:57 AM
MoMass was a rookie. K2 and Braylon have much much much much much bigger contracts, and are both primadonnas (Braylon moreso than Kellen), and Kellen has that knee that will probably keep him from playing past 30 and he gets hurt often as well. I wouldn't have minded keeping Winslow Solja, but Edwards was a good trade. Getting anything at all for Sir Dropsandbitchesalot is a bargain.

MattyFos
01-18-2010, 11:00 AM
MoMass was a rookie. K2 and Braylon have much much much much much bigger contracts, and are both primadonnas (Braylon moreso than Kellen), and Kellen has that knee that will probably keep him from playing past 30 and he gets hurt often as well. I wouldn't have minded keeping Winslow Solja, but Edwards was a good trade. Getting anything at all for Sir Dropsandbitchesalot is a bargain.
You don't mind the Browns bringing in Holgren for up to 50 million dollars and Heckert for a hefty sum.. but you hate players making money?

keylime_5
01-18-2010, 11:03 AM
Well Holmgren and Heckert don't count against a salary cap.

MattyFos
01-18-2010, 11:10 AM
I's rather be competitive toeing the salary cap line, then dumping off contracts and competing for a top ten pick in the NFL draft

Brown Leader
01-18-2010, 11:53 AM
The Browns defense took a leap forward once Rogers went on IR with a broken leg and Rubin stepped in.



Browns defense took a step forward because of the emergence of the running game behind Harrison, "only a returner" Cribbs and the Oline. See Jets for a better example.

Fellas on here amaze me. How anyone could watch what Cribbs did to the Steelers, our biggest win since re-conception, and view him as only a returner is beyond me. Key offensive plays as a RB/KR in all our 5 wins were made by Cribbs. He was clearly the only guy opponents feared all season until Harrison's late surge. He deserves a 2mill bonus for that Steeler game alone lol.

The guy may be in my sig but I'm looking objectively at our season. If this guy was not our mvp than who was? If this guy isn't arguably our best player than who is? And don't say Thomas, who didn't even have his best year to earn that all-pro praise. Jake Long might beg to differ.

Yeah lezz trade him.

fear the elf
01-18-2010, 12:22 PM
Browns defense took a step forward because of the emergence of the running game behind Harrison, "only a returner" Cribbs and the Oline. See Jets for a better example.

Fellas on here amaze me. How anyone could watch what Cribbs did to the Steelers, our biggest win since re-conception, and view him as only a returner is beyond me. Key offensive plays as a RB/KR in all our 5 wins were made by Cribbs. He was clearly the only guy opponents feared all season until Harrison's late surge. He deserves a 2mill bonus for that Steeler game alone lol.

The guy may be in my sig but I'm looking objectively at our season. If this guy was not our mvp than who was? If this guy isn't arguably our best player than who is? And don't say Thomas, who didn't even have his best year to earn that all-pro praise. Jake Long might beg to differ.

Yeah lezz trade him.

This is what I've been saying. I don't think you break the bank on him, but paying him for what he has done and what we hope he continues to do is fine with me. I would have no problem paying a man that can play up to 4 positions, 3 mil per year. That being said, if we were offered a high 1st round pick, I don't know how I would feel. Those are just so valuable, but then again so is the production and versatility of a proven commodity in Josh Cribbs. That's a tough one for me.

jriles0522
01-18-2010, 01:58 PM
You don't mind the Browns bringing in Holgren for up to 50 million dollars and Heckert for a hefty sum.. but you hate players making money?


Come on dude. Braylon was the "shining light" in their passing game? Are you serious? What passing game. Their passing game is WORSE since Edwards came over. You can say teams figured out Sanchez, or spin it however you want, but he hasn't done jack ****. Cotchery is a better receiver than Edwards there.

In their last 6 games they've cracked 200 yards ONCE. Sanchez has 4 tds and 10 interceptions! Including the last 2 games of the regular season where the colts and bengals laid down. In that same time, Edwards caught more than 3 balls one time, when he had 5.

How many times has Edwards dropped a touchdown since he's been there or has a pass thrown his way been picked off because he is out of position. TONS of times.

In the playoffs Edwards has 4 catches for 33 yards.

Is Massaquoi better than Edwards? No. But stop acting like we traded ******* Andre Johnson away.

Anderson is not a pro bowl QB anymore, its not ******* 2007, and Quinn sucks, so you cannot say Massaquoi had a good QB throwing to him.

We missed Winslow no doubt, but we weren't going anywhere this year or next year. Guy was a cancer in the locker room anyway. He might only play 1 or 2 more years.




Most important if we would've picked players that were worth a **** with those 2nd round picks YOU would have no argument.

If we would have gotten Loadholt at RT and McCoy at RB it'd be different.

Value was good, bad execution on draft picks.

MattyFos
01-18-2010, 03:36 PM
Come on dude. Braylon was the "shining light" in their passing game? Are you serious? What passing game. Their passing game is WORSE since Edwards came over. You can say teams figured out Sanchez, or spin it however you want, but he hasn't done jack ****. Cotchery is a better receiver than Edwards there.

In their last 6 games they've cracked 200 yards ONCE. Sanchez has 4 tds and 10 interceptions! Including the last 2 games of the regular season where the colts and bengals laid down. In that same time, Edwards caught more than 3 balls one time, when he had 5.

How many times has Edwards dropped a touchdown since he's been there or has a pass thrown his way been picked off because he is out of position. TONS of times.

In the playoffs Edwards has 4 catches for 33 yards.

Is Massaquoi better than Edwards? No. But stop acting like we traded ******* Andre Johnson away.

Anderson is not a pro bowl QB anymore, its not ******* 2007, and Quinn sucks, so you cannot say Massaquoi had a good QB throwing to him.

We missed Winslow no doubt, but we weren't going anywhere this year or next year. Guy was a cancer in the locker room anyway. He might only play 1 or 2 more years.




Most important if we would've picked players that were worth a **** with those 2nd round picks YOU would have no argument.

If we would have gotten Loadholt at RT and McCoy at RB it'd be different.

Value was good, bad execution on draft picks.

Could that be because they were dominating teams on the ground?

Edwards was a cancer in the locker room b/c guys like YOU got pissed that he had the audacity (Obama vocab word) to punch Lebron's friend in the face. OMG! He's a horrible person.

It doesn't matter to me how those picks panned out. You DO NOT trade know talent for draft picks. That is the dumbest thing ever thought of. If you have a known commodity.. a 6'5 wideout who runs in the 4.4's and has the leaping ability to have a chance on any jump ball you DO NOT trade him away for a draft pick. Dradt picks, as the Browns franchise has know since 1999 are a crap shoot. You are not guaranteed any production out of your picks. So when you get a Wideout who has the ability to be one of the best b/c of his size, speed, leaping ability, and hands on impossible catches (bengals, steelers) you have to hold onto that... I think DA and Brady would rather have seen Kellen and Braylon out there instead of Robert Royal/ Evan Moore Chansi Stuckey and MoMass. Get real dude.
Don't let your hate for Braylon think we are better off without him than we were with him.
P.S. Braylon had a drop problem coming out of college, he had a drop problem his rookie year, he had a drop problem his sophmore year, he had a drop problem his PRO BOWL year, he had a drop problem last year (And that's when you started catching onto it, you moron) He had a drop problem this year...
I'd rather have Braylon who has the ability to put up 1000 yard seasons and 80 receptions with 12 drops (I think that's his career high) then MoMass who can MAYBE reach 900 in a contract year and MoMass will still get you 12 drops.. he was dropping passes all year.

Cotchery had 10 more receptions than Edwards and 140 yards more receiving. He also had one less TD than Braylon.. I'd say the two are pretty similar.

wonderbredd24
01-18-2010, 03:38 PM
Braylon is 6'3" and he can't catch. He had 16 drops last year

fear the elf
01-18-2010, 03:52 PM
Could that be because they were dominating teams on the ground?

Edwards was a cancer in the locker room b/c guys like YOU got pissed that he had the audacity (Obama vocab word) to punch Lebron's friend in the face. OMG! He's a horrible person.

It doesn't matter to me how those picks panned out. You DO NOT trade know talent for draft picks. That is the dumbest thing ever thought of. If you have a known commodity.. a 6'5 wideout who runs in the 4.4's and has the leaping ability to have a chance on any jump ball you DO NOT trade him away for a draft pick. Dradt picks, as the Browns franchise has know since 1999 are a crap shoot. You are not guaranteed any production out of your picks. So when you get a Wideout who has the ability to be one of the best b/c of his size, speed, leaping ability, and hands on impossible catches (bengals, steelers) you have to hold onto that... I think DA and Brady would rather have seen Kellen and Braylon out there instead of Robert Royal/ Evan Moore Chansi Stuckey and MoMass. Get real dude.
Don't let your hate for Braylon think we are better off without him than we were with him.
P.S. Braylon had a drop problem coming out of college, he had a drop problem his rookie year, he had a drop problem his sophmore year, he had a drop problem his PRO BOWL year, he had a drop problem last year (And that's when you started catching onto it, you moron) He had a drop problem this year...
I'd rather have Braylon who has the ability to put up 1000 yard seasons and 80 receptions with 12 drops (I think that's his career high) then MoMass who can MAYBE reach 900 in a contract year and MoMass will still get you 12 drops.. he was dropping passes all year.

Cotchery had 10 more receptions than Edwards and 140 yards more receiving. He also had one less TD than Braylon.. I'd say the two are pretty similar.

So let's go in order:

1. The difference between the Pro Bowl year and the other years is that in between the drops, was production. To the tune of 1300 yds and 16 TDs. Braylon has never reached 900 yards, except for that Pro Bowl season.

2. Personal attacks. That's low. They are not allowed, and nobody attacked you, just disagreed with your opinion.

3. How can you claim to know that MoMass will only be able to reach 900 yards in a contract year? He has only played 1 year so far and has never played for a new contract. There is no merit to any part of that statement.

keylime_5
01-18-2010, 04:05 PM
Most important if we would've picked players that were worth a **** with those 2nd round picks YOU would have no argument.

If we would have gotten Loadholt at RT and McCoy at RB it'd be different.

Value was good, bad execution on draft picks.

this is a good point. It's too early to judge how good Massaqoui or Veikune or Robiskie are, but there are definitely second round picks both this past year and every year who are worth while. The value was good in the Winslow trade, it's just a matter of getting the right guy. I think in the end Massaquoi will be a career #2 WR in the NFL. Guys like Jarius Byrd, Phil Loadholt, Louis Delmas are current/future pro bowlers taken in round 2.

keylime_5
01-18-2010, 04:08 PM
...regarding Edwards, he's a guy you don't want on your team. He fusses and causes problems in the locker room, he gets paid well more than he's worth, and he drops passes more than anyone else in the league. Getting a 3rd and 5th round pick or whatever is not just worth his value, getting rid of him for nothing has a positive impact in itself. The guy replacing him might not get as open as much or have as good of stats, but he's less likely to drop it and won't be as big a distraction in the locker room.

jriles0522
01-18-2010, 08:24 PM
Whatever fos.

You can trade talent when the production disappears and the guy kills the locker room. He's always been a prick. I've hated him since he complained about the Browns fans booing him since he was from Michigan. Really Braylon? They booed you when you couldn't catch the ball anymore.

He wanted out. He was dogging it here when we started to lose. If you don't want to be here and play hard, get the f out. We can replace your 700 yards. If he returns to pro bowl form one day, fine. He wouldn't have here.

It's like Moss in Oakland, except Braylon was way shittier. You think if Moss stayed in Oakland he ever would've revived his career? He quit, got a trade, and that's the way it goes sometimes.

I didn't mind Winslow nearly as much. He played hard all the time for us. I think the injury thing, with his contract, and Mangini's philosophy was just a bad mix.

By the way I'm not a moron. For you to say Edwards is some godsend to the Jets just isn't correct, and there are no stats or evidence to make that case. Teams weren't exactly lining up for Edwards if you remember. No one would even offer a No. 2 for him. If he's such a stud #1 guy, wouldn't teams do that? If you don't trade talent for a draft pick, then why wouldn't the giants or any other team give us a #2 for him? The giants decided they'd rather have fing Hakeem Nicks!

Its unfair to compare him to Massaquoi, the trade wasn't made with the thought that he was better than Edwards. We didn't trade Winslow thinking Robert Royal would be the answer either.

Splat
01-20-2010, 04:54 PM
Browns announce four new personnel execs (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/20/browns-announce-four-new-personnel-execs/)

Cicero
02-19-2010, 02:28 AM
Where would you guys put Eric Wright as far as CB rankings go? I don't see a lot of the Browns on tv but the few times I thought if he had a better surrounding cast he would shine.

wonderbredd24
02-19-2010, 06:48 AM
Where would you guys put Eric Wright as far as CB rankings go? I don't see a lot of the Browns on tv but the few times I thought if he had a better surrounding cast he would shine.

Eric Wright is good and getting better. He's a real threat as a cover corner to get INTs and the second half of the season really came on as a tackler too.

He's the best, young player on the Browns defense. If the Browns pair him with Haden, they would have a sick corner duo for a very long time.

Brown Leader
02-19-2010, 08:55 AM
Eric Wright is good and getting better. He's a real threat as a cover corner to get INTs and the second half of the season really came on as a tackler too.

He's the best, young player on the Browns defense. If the Browns pair him with Haden, they would have a sick corner duo for a very long time.

I would agree he's our best young player on defense but for what it's worth the Browns ranked 31st total and 29th in pass defense-that's while getting 40 sacks for 8th in the league. I'd say he's a solid CB now, probably in the top 20, with a chance this season being good, and nearing the top 12 because so many of the best are getting older.

wonderbredd24
02-19-2010, 04:40 PM
I would agree he's our best young player on defense but for what it's worth the Browns ranked 31st total and 29th in pass defense-that's while getting 40 sacks for 8th in the league. I'd say he's a solid CB now, probably in the top 20, with a chance this season being good, and nearing the top 12 because so many of the best are getting older.

Mike Adams was a safety playing corner, Mike Furrey is a wide receiver playing safety, to put it kindly Brandon McDonald is inconsistent, Hank Poteat is awful, and Abram Elam is an in-the-box safety

They threw at everyone else but Wright. Those statistics are absolutely meaningless.

keylime_5
02-19-2010, 04:55 PM
Haden and Wright would be a great start in the secondary. We'd still need a free safety, but it's a lot easier to find a good safety than it is to find two great young corners. Wright really came on last year as the season went on.

j05son
03-04-2010, 11:12 PM
DT Cory Williams has been traded to the Detroit Lions for a mid round draft pick. It's still unknown if the pick is this year or next years. It's being rumored that Williams would have been cut if this trade didn't go down.

Also, 6 Browns tendered at the second round tender:

Abe Elam, Jerome Harrison, Jason Trusnik, D'Qwell Jackson, Lawrence Vickers and Matt Roth.

Three Browns have been tendered in which we will have exclusive rights to:

Marcus Benard, Blake Costanzo and Chris Jennings.

Brodney Pool and Greg Estandia have officially become free agents.

kalbears13
03-05-2010, 04:32 PM
Cribbs signs three-year contract.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/03/05/browns-pay-cribbs-with-new-three-year-contract/

j05son
03-07-2010, 05:55 PM
Browns sign LB Scott Fujita and RT Tony Pashos. Pashos is looking to be the early favorite for starting RT. His contract is a 3 yr 10.3 Mil deal and the specifics on Futita's deal hasn't surfaced yet.

Looks like Hadnot is visiting with Denver and Pool is visiting with St. Louis.

Also it's rumored that we have shown interest in RB Mike Bell from New Orleans and QB David Carr from New York Giants. There was also talk on a Buffalo radio show about a Derek Anderson for Trent Edwards trade.

Brown Leader
03-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Whew, no longer have to worry about us taking McClain.

TRich28
03-12-2010, 02:37 PM
With all of the talk about trading Quinn, who or what would you like to see the Browns get for him?

Before they signed Ben Watson, I was thinking about a possible trade with Denver: Quinn for Tony Scheffler, with some draft picks thrown in to even it out.

I have also heard that Carolina likes Quinn, and he could compete with Moore for the starting QB position there. It has been said that when the Panthers tendered CB Richard Marshall at the 2nd round level, that they were doing so in hopes of letting him go and get some compensation. Don't know if that is true, but how about a trade of Quinn and a lower pick (4th/5th) for Marshall?

On another note, do you think the Browns should try for O.J. Atogwe as a replacement for Pool at FS? It would require no compensation, the only thing the Rams could do is match the offer sheet. If they got Atogwe and somehow Eric Berry fell to the 7th spot, that would be a serious improvement, in my mind, over Pool and Elam. What do you think?

wonderbredd24
03-12-2010, 03:20 PM
I don't think Quinn will be traded because they will not get enough for him and his cap number is pretty low, so money isn't an issue. I just don't think the league thinks much of him right now.

We need a free safety, but that's where Eric Berry would go if we got him.

CT Bronco Fan
03-14-2010, 05:31 PM
I don't think Quinn will be traded because they will not get enough for him and his cap number is pretty low, so money isn't an issue. I just don't think the league thinks much of him right now.

We need a free safety, but that's where Eric Berry would go if we got him.

Denver Traded for Quinn today, and gave you Peyton Hillis and 2 draft picks, no word on what round those picks are in.

Hopefully Hillis gets the chance to play over there, as he was in McD's doghouse for some reason. He showed amazing potential as a rookie, and hopefully it can be fulfilled with Cleveland.

MizzouBig12
03-15-2010, 10:26 AM
Hillis is a good fit in the backfield with Jerome Harrison, who did very well last year. If the O-line does their job, it will be tough to defend that combination of quick/fast (Harrison) and speed/power (Hillis). The H & H backfield.

keylime_5
03-15-2010, 05:42 PM
Hillis, Harrison, Vickers, Cribbs, Davis, and Jennings is a pretty decent backfield I think. Lots of babbling about Quinn on the NFL forum but what we did was get rid of a guy who stunk last year that none of the coaches or personnel guys liked and upgraded at QB with Delhomme and Wallace (even if Delhomme sucks we have Seneca to fallback on) and I think the odds of those two veterans being as bad as Quinn/Anderson are very low.

We have 12 picks including three 3rds and I think four 5ths plus a 1st and 2nd (and tradeable guys like Jackson and Rogers) so if we want to trade up to get Sam Bradford or Jimmy Clausen we probably have the ammo to do so. I think the Rams will get so enamored with Bradford that they'll make the price for the #1 pick unreachable.

Morton
03-16-2010, 11:06 AM
If Brady Quinn goes and puts up a 3500+ yard season with 20+ TDs and <10 INTs in Denver, and then Delhomme puts up another patented 18+ INT season in Cleveland, will Browns fans just want to tar and feather Mike Holmgren or what?

j05son
03-16-2010, 10:49 PM
If Brady Quinn goes and puts up a 3500+ yard season with 20+ TDs and <10 INTs in Denver, and then Delhomme puts up another patented 18+ INT season in Cleveland, will Browns fans just want to tar and feather Mike Holmgren or what?

However unlikely, yes. Cleveland isn't patient.

barry
03-19-2010, 05:01 PM
let's go *real* unlikely and envision DA & BQ facing each other in the 2011 SB. the haters would have a field day.

Rosebud
03-21-2010, 01:18 AM
Out of curiosity what do you guys think Shaun Rogers might fetch in a trade?

Brown Leader
03-22-2010, 03:05 PM
Out of curiosity what do you guys think Shaun Rogers might fetch in a trade?

Nothing less than a 3rd rd pick, although with 10 seasons on him that might be a stretch-but Holmgren likes over sized athletic dlineman.

wonderbredd24
03-22-2010, 03:22 PM
Nothing less than a 3rd rd pick, although with 10 seasons on him that might be a stretch-but Holmgren likes over sized athletic dlineman.

At least a 2nd... he's an elite nose guard and those guys play deep into their 30s at a very high level. Shaun Rogers is a freak and would give the Giants, Vikings, Eagles, or Saints a huge ugrade to the position.

keylime_5
03-22-2010, 03:38 PM
late 2nd or 3rd.

TRich28
03-22-2010, 04:42 PM
How about Shaun Rogers and D'Qwell Jackson for Derrick Johnson and the Chiefs' 2nd round pick (#50) that they received from Atlanta?

wonderbredd24
03-22-2010, 09:24 PM
How about Shaun Rogers and D'Qwell Jackson for Derrick Johnson and the Chiefs' 2nd round pick (#50) that they received from Atlanta?

No thank you. We'd be taking a huge loss on that move

Brown Leader
03-22-2010, 09:49 PM
No thank you. We'd be taking a huge loss on that move

That's putting it mildly. **** NO!! TRich28.

PoopSandwich
03-23-2010, 01:48 PM
D'Qwell needs a solid MLB to go with him and we could get much more if we packaged a pick + shaun rogers to move up I think (Maybe from 7 to 1)

redbills
03-23-2010, 09:30 PM
Anyone have any info on Alex Hall? In 08 he had a soild year and many thought he be very good last year, did he just get into the dog house or what? thanks.

fear the elf
03-26-2010, 03:59 PM
Anybody else see this comment by Scott in his new Mock Draft?

Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace form the worst two-deep of QB's in the league.

Now, Scott's a smart guy (at least in the realm of football), but this is a stupid comment. I mean, yeah, it's bad, so don't get me wrong. But, the worst two-deep in the NFL? No. I would say Seneca is actually one of the better backups in the league and we will see if Delhomme has anything left in the tank, but even if they are the worst, it's not by such a wide margin that this comment is warranted.

Ok, sorry. That just bothered me. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this way, but it still pissed me off.

PickedOffTwice
03-27-2010, 06:56 AM
Anybody else see this comment by Scott in his new Mock Draft?



Now, Scott's a smart guy (at least in the realm of football), but this is a stupid comment. I mean, yeah, it's bad, so don't get me wrong. But, the worst two-deep in the NFL? No. I would say Seneca is actually one of the better backups in the league and we will see if Delhomme has anything left in the tank, but even if they are the worst, it's not by such a wide margin that this comment is warranted.

Ok, sorry. That just bothered me. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this way, but it still pissed me off.

Yeah, I mean we are not exactly in great shape at the position, but what about Buffalo, Miami, KC, Carolina or St. Louis. These teams don't have exactly a stellar QB tandem either. To call Clevelands the WORST, is quite a stretch.

Anyway, QB is a major need for us this year or the next.

Brown Leader
04-02-2010, 11:40 AM
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/36149592/ns/sports-player_news/:D

What a deal.

wonderbredd24
04-02-2010, 01:10 PM
Not exactly thrilled to get a 31 year old veteran corner and what amounts to be a 26 year old draft pick.

Couldn't care less about losing Alex Hall, but I wouldn't have been shocked to get a pass rushing project just as good as Gocong in the 4th or 5th round who would be 3-5 years younger.

I hope this doesn't rule out Haden, since Brown's not gonna be here all that long.

fear the elf
04-02-2010, 01:19 PM
It's a good deal. Both corner spots are locked down, at least for a couple years, and we got, at worst, a good rotational OLB, for a 4th and 5th and a guy that didn't even see the field last year. It's not like we were going to draft and sign 12 guys anyways.

wonderbredd24
04-02-2010, 01:28 PM
It's not like we were going to draft and sign 12 guys anyways.

Why? Jacksonville had between 15 and 20 rookies on their team last year and their roster is better than the Browns.

Brown Leader
04-02-2010, 01:51 PM
Not exactly thrilled to get a 31 year old veteran corner and what amounts to be a 26 year old draft pick.

Couldn't care less about losing Alex Hall, but I wouldn't have been shocked to get a pass rushing project just as good as Gocong in the 4th or 5th round who would be 3-5 years younger.

I hope this doesn't rule out Haden, since Brown's not gonna be here all that long.

What are you talking? Charles Woodson is 34-AP Def player of the year, Gocong does not amount to a draft pick, he's a steady vet, still with upside. We would be especially lucky to find a 4th or 5th that could match up.

jriles0522
04-02-2010, 03:12 PM
What are you talking? Charles Woodson is 34-AP Def player of the year, Gocong does not amount to a draft pick, he's a steady vet, still with upside. We would be especially lucky to find a 4th or 5th that could match up.

Seconded. Come on dude. We didn't give up ****.

Alex Hall=0.

Our 4th rounder, and one of our 4 5th round picks?

I mean come on Gocong started for the Eagles, a pretty solid team, and it's generally agreed he'll be better in a 3-4. Plus he's young, we basically traded Wimbley for Gocong, and moved up from our 4th rounder into the 3rd. Brown is 31 yea, but he instantly becomes our best corner, and if he's solid for 2 years, then moves to a nickel its still a great value. You are seriously bitching about trading one of our FOUR 5th round picks for a pro-bowl caliber starting corner?

Plus, now we actually have a veteran cornerback to mentor the young guys we bring in, instead of just throwing them out their and saying good luck.

Go look at the Eagles message board and see how pissed they are about losing Sheldon Brown for nothing.

wonderbredd24
04-02-2010, 03:52 PM
What are you talking? Charles Woodson is 34-AP Def player of the year, Gocong does not amount to a draft pick, he's a steady vet, still with upside. We would be especially lucky to find a 4th or 5th that could match up.

You're comparing Sheldon Brown to Charles Woodson? Seriously?

Gocong has 4 career sacks in 5 year. Marcus Benard had 3.5 last year in 6 games. Gocong had 1 more sack than I did last year

keylime_5
04-02-2010, 04:34 PM
Not exactly thrilled to get a 31 year old veteran corner and what amounts to be a 26 year old draft pick.

Couldn't care less about losing Alex Hall, but I wouldn't have been shocked to get a pass rushing project just as good as Gocong in the 4th or 5th round who would be 3-5 years younger.

I hope this doesn't rule out Haden, since Brown's not gonna be here all that long.

for a 4th and 5th (and we have like 3 more 5th rounders still) and a scrub it's cookies for a pro bowl cornerback and a project OLB who Heckert and Mangini both really loved coming out of college 3 years ago (who has been in the wrong system). There is no losing in this scenario considering we'd be lucky to get a single decent starter with those 2 picks, let alone a pro bowl cornerback (for at least 2 seasons) and an OLB who might start for us this year. And no, it doesn't rule out Haden, but it certainly puts CB much lower on our list of needs. Keep in mind Brown can play safety too, and has the flexibility to let us have Wright-Elam-Brown-Haden OR Wright-Elam-Berry/Thomas-Brown starting if need be.

Not much to lose, and very little chance of not getting great production in this trade. Great trade for us. We still have 10 draft picks including three 3rds and three 5ths.

Morton
04-02-2010, 04:50 PM
Say Sheldon Brown plays well for, um, 3 years. That is being incredibly optimistic.

The Browns are still not going to make the playoffs in a division with the Ravens and Steelers in that timeframe if they are starting Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace. Even IF they draft a quarterback in 2010, it's going to be another 2 years minimum before he can develop into a playoff caliber player.

So basically speaking, Sheldon Brown will be cut long before he even has a chance to play in another playoff game.

Brown Leader
04-02-2010, 06:27 PM
Say Sheldon Brown plays well for, um, 3 years. That is being incredibly optimistic.

The Browns are still not going to make the playoffs in a division with the Ravens and Steelers in that timeframe if they are starting Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace. Even IF they draft a quarterback in 2010, it's going to be another 2 years minimum before he can develop into a playoff caliber player.

So basically speaking, Sheldon Brown will be cut long before he even has a chance to play in another playoff game.

I'm not sure you understand how bad are defense and the secondary played last year. If Brown can play at or near his usual level of play for even two seasons it's a win for us.

I looked in on Gocong in 08 and can say he's about as good as Wimbley. Kam plays the run better but I'll wager Chris will be a better rusher and overall athlete in space-a better tackler.

You're comparing Sheldon Brown to Charles Woodson? Seriously?

Gocong has 4 career sacks in 5 year. Marcus Benard had 3.5 last year in 6 games. Gocong had 1 more sack than I did last year
Of course not, but you brought up his age. There's no reason to believe he can't continue to be effective for another 3 seasons or so. He played at a higher level last season than Wright.

Chucky
04-02-2010, 06:30 PM
Say Sheldon Brown plays well for, um, 3 years. That is being incredibly optimistic.

The Browns are still not going to make the playoffs in a division with the Ravens and Steelers in that timeframe if they are starting Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace. Even IF they draft a quarterback in 2010, it's going to be another 2 years minimum before he can develop into a playoff caliber player.

So basically speaking, Sheldon Brown will be cut long before he even has a chance to play in another playoff game.

With this thinking....bad teams should never try to do anything to improve their team unless it involves drafting top prospects?

I understand you are dissapointed that the Eagles made a boneheaded move that you can't seem to understand and have to attempt to rationalize through putting down the winners of the trade, but it is just pathetic on your part