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Thumper
04-02-2010, 06:33 PM
I looked in on Gocong in 08 and can say he's about as good as Wimbley. Kam plays the run better but I'll wager Chris will be a better rusher and overall athlete in space-a better tackler.

Gocong is a terrible blitzer and he isn't good in coverage, his best asset is his ability to stop the run. He has no pass rush moves, no technique, no first step and he can't disengage once an offensive lineman gets his hands on him. Gocong is garbage, I'm telling you guys, he sucks.

keylime_5
04-02-2010, 06:38 PM
Say Sheldon Brown plays well for, um, 3 years. That is being incredibly optimistic.

The Browns are still not going to make the playoffs in a division with the Ravens and Steelers in that timeframe if they are starting Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace. Even IF they draft a quarterback in 2010, it's going to be another 2 years minimum before he can develop into a playoff caliber player.

So basically speaking, Sheldon Brown will be cut long before he even has a chance to play in another playoff game.

yeah, what's the point in brining in good veteran players, we should only bring in young guys or ****** veterans b/c we won't be good in a long time.


the way our defense played at the end of last year and how good our run game was on offense (you know we won 4 in a row to finish the year after starting 1-11), and considering we upgraded at QB, OL, TE, LB, and now CB if we bring in an impact player or two via the draft then we have a chance to be good. No one thought Cincinnati was gonna win the division last year after being the worst team in the AFC North in 2008, everyone thought the Dolphins were a good three years away from a winning season after going 1-15 in 2007, yet they went to the playoffs in 2008 after winning a division title. It's the NFL, teams can get good or bad overnight. You can't build your roster assuming that you are going to be terrible and that you're years away from success.

thank you for coming into my forum though, we always welcome fans of other teams here and their input.

Gocong is a terrible blitzer and he isn't good in coverage, his best asset is his ability to stop the run. He has no pass rush moves, no technique, no first step and he can't disengage once an offensive lineman gets his hands on him. Gocong is garbage, I'm telling you guys, he sucks.

you know this already, but for those who don't Mangini and Heckert really love Gocong and think he'll do better in our system. He'll compete with David Bowens and Marcus Benard for playing time and a starting spot even at LOLB this year. We'll be good there either way. Gocong needed a fresh start in a new system, there's more hope that he'll have success for us than there was for Alex Hall to make an impact.

Brown Leader
04-02-2010, 06:45 PM
Gocong is a terrible blitzer and he isn't good in coverage, his best asset is his ability to stop the run. He has no pass rush moves, no technique, no first step and he can't disengage once an offensive lineman gets his hands on him. Gocong is garbage, I'm telling you guys, he sucks.

Wow. I thought I remember him flying up-field play after play? Out of control, but I felt he was disruptive. He was a starter right? sounds like your talking about Hall.

Edit-His best asset is playing the run yet he can't disengage from blocks? Sounds like he was filling lanes then? Penetrating-I'm assuming this was at or behind los?

wonderbredd24
04-02-2010, 06:47 PM
Wow. I thought I remember him flying up-field play after play? Out of control, but I felt he was disruptive. He was a starter right? sounds like your talking about Hall.

He was benched 11 games into the season

Thumper
04-02-2010, 06:59 PM
Wow. I thought I remember him flying up-field play after play? Out of control, but I felt he was disruptive. He was a starter right? sounds like your talking about Hall.

Edit-His best asset is playing the run yet he can't disengage from blocks? Sounds like he was filling lanes then? Penetrating-I'm assuming this was at or behind los?

He is at his best when he is filling the lanes, that is right, if you want to see Gocong's ceiling pop in the playoff games against the Giants and Vikings where he was really good at stuffing the run. If you want to see how terrible he is, just pop in any game this season. He is big and strong with limited range but he is good at standing up offensive lineman and filling gaps, that is why his tackle numbers are always low. Gocong is anything but disruptive. If he had anything symbolizing instincts I would say he would be a good TED linebacker, but he completely sucked at MLB for the Eagles, the Chargers ran up the middle all day.

And Gocong was benched in favor of Moses Fokou, a 7th round draft pick who is really raw.

Brown Leader
04-02-2010, 06:59 PM
He is at his best when he is filling the lanes, that is right, if you want to see Gocong's ceiling pop in the playoff games against the Giants and Vikings where he was really good at stuffing the run. If you want to see how terrible he is, just pop in any game this season. He is big and strong with limited range but he is good at standing up offensive lineman and filling gaps, that is why his tackle numbers are always low. Gocong is anything but disruptive. If he had anything symbolizing instincts I would say he would be a good TED linebacker, but he completely sucked at MLB for the Eagles, the Chargers ran up the middle all day.

And Gocong was benched in favor of Moses Fokou, a 7th round draft pick who is really raw.



I'll still take him over Hall but I guess even trade.

Brown Leader
04-02-2010, 07:21 PM
Last point-I know Gocong was benched last season but he had earned a start before that. Hall is not worthy of a start now or maby even in the near future-still raw athlete after 3 seasons. Pfw had Fokou rated as a 4-5th rd prospect whereas Marcus Bernard, who beat out Hall, was almost complete off the radar.

Morton
04-02-2010, 09:07 PM
Here's the deal:

You only should bring in 30+ year old veterans if you are primed to make a playoff run NOW.

The Browns are a TERRIBLE team with many, many holes, and zero stability at the QB position. Adding an aging, solid CB will not matter because he will only be an starter for 3 years tops, and there is nothing to indicate a playoff caliber team within that time frame. Again, you underestimate the importance of a QB.

Unless Jake Delhomme or Seneca Wallace magically turn into Peyton Manning overnight, or they draft Jimmy Clausen and he turns into Tom Brady within the next 2 years, this move really does make zero sense because a team like the Browns with so many holes and so few chances to be a playoff team should not be trading for aging veterans, and instead should be stockpiling draft picks to rebuild their roster into a talented young core.

Morton
04-02-2010, 09:12 PM
yeah, what's the point in brining in good veteran players, we should only bring in young guys or ****** veterans b/c we won't be good in a long time.


It only makes sense to bring in aging veterans who will play for 2-3 years if your team is good enough to take advantage of their skills within that time frame. Otherwise, a team should be building through the draft if it has alot of holes on the roster.



the way our defense played at the end of last year and how good our run game was on offense (you know we won 4 in a row to finish the year after starting 1-11), and considering we upgraded at QB, OL, TE, LB, and now CB if we bring in an impact player or two via the draft then we have a chance to be good. No one thought Cincinnati was gonna win the division last year after being the worst team in the AFC North in 2008, everyone thought the Dolphins were a good three years away from a winning season after going 1-15 in 2007, yet they went to the playoffs in 2008 after winning a division title. It's the NFL, teams can get good or bad overnight. You can't build your roster assuming that you are going to be terrible and that you're years away from success.


Newsflash: you need a solid QB to win in the NFL.

2009 Cincinatti: Carson Palmer
2008 Miami: Chad Pennington

Jake Delhomme is toast. He never was a great QB, but now he throws more interceptions than completions. Seneca Wallace is a career backup QB.

The Browns are going nowhere until they get a franchise QB. And if they draft one in 2010 (which is highly likely), it will take at least 2 years to fully develop into a starter. Again, by that time, Sheldon Brown will be gone.

So this deal, actually, was pretty pointless for the Browns. The Eagles didn't fleece them, but a bad team like the Browns could really use all of the draft picks it can get its hands on and shouldn't be trading them away for old veterans who won't be around for too long.

The only thing that will salvage this deal for the Browns is if Gocong turns into a great rush OLB who you can build a defense around for the next 5+ years, but I don't really see that happening.

keylime_5
04-02-2010, 09:13 PM
if you can get a 31 year old pro bowl corner (who becomes the best player in your secondary immediately) and a potential starting OLB for a 4th and 5th round pick you make that trade...especially if your secondary is as bad as our's is. You don't bulid a team by neglecting good veteran players. Having Brown here to start and form a very good duo with Eric Wright while we develop a young rookie corner (say a 3rd round pick for instance) then that is better than throwing him into the fire right away and having to go through growing pains. You act like we have something to lose by acquiring Brown. A midround pick, so what, we have 3 3rds and 3 5ths. Very good deal.

Morton
04-02-2010, 09:15 PM
if you can get a 31 year old pro bowl corner (who becomes the best player in your secondary immediately) and a potential starting OLB for a 4th and 5th round pick you make that trade...especially if your secondary is as bad as our's is. You don't bulid a team by neglecting good veteran players. Having Brown here to start and form a very good duo with Eric Wright while we develop a young rookie corner (say a 3rd round pick for instance) then that is better than throwing him into the fire right away and having to go through growing pains. You act like we have something to lose by acquiring Brown. A midround pick, so what? Very good deal.

Any and all picks that you can keep, even if they are in the 4th and 5th rounds, are valuable to a team as bad as the Browns that needs as many young players as it can get its hands on.

You fail to understand that getting a 31 year old CB is simply pointless. He's going to be off the roster before the Browns can make a potential playoff run. It's just a complete waste, unless they can magically get a solid quarterback within the next 2 years.

keylime_5
04-02-2010, 09:24 PM
yeah, bringing in a good veteran leader who can solidify our secondary even if for a few years is totally worthless if there's no way you can win a title in that time. If we can get Charles Woodson for a mid round pick we should turn it down b/c of the small chance that that player becomes something worthwhile. We have 10 picks after having 12 before the trade, we can afford to bring in a veteran pro bowler or two.

We're the freakin' browns anyway, we need to have as many winning seasons as we can even if we don't get to the playoffs just to get out of the dumpster of the NFL and we aren't gonna do that by not improving the talent on our roster.

Morton
04-02-2010, 09:37 PM
I guarantee you the Browns will not have a winning season for the next 3 years, minimum.

Enjoy your suckitude.

keylime_5
04-02-2010, 09:39 PM
that means a lot to us coming from what looks like the #1 browns hater on the board. we managed a 10-6 record in 2007, I'm sure we'll be a decent franchise again now that we have real NFL people running the team in Holmgren and Heckert. Brown is beautiful and deep down you know it :)

PickedOffTwice
04-03-2010, 04:16 AM
Any and all picks that you can keep, even if they are in the 4th and 5th rounds, are valuable to a team as bad as the Browns that needs as many young players as it can get its hands on.

You fail to understand that getting a 31 year old CB is simply pointless. He's going to be off the roster before the Browns can make a potential playoff run. It's just a complete waste, unless they can magically get a solid quarterback within the next 2 years.

So it's pointless to try to upgrade your team and put them in the best spot possible for the next season? With the only exception that you can make a "playoff run", aka see a chance to win it all?

No point in trying to win as many games as possible, EXCEPT for the few superbowl contenders.

about 25 teams should just give it up then. What's the point anyway?

keylime_5
04-03-2010, 10:24 AM
just an informative look at Holmgren's QB history, especially in regards to the draft. Notice that all the QBs he's ever picked were in round 3 or later, and that almost all of the ones who found success were taken in round 5 or 6 or so.

QBs drafted by Mike Holmgren with Green Bay Packers:

Ty Detmer-1992-RD 9
Mark Brunell-1993-RD 5
Jay Barker-1995-RD 5
Kyle Wachholtz-1996-RD 7
Matt Hasselbeck-1998-RD 6

QBs drafted by Mike Holmgren with Seattle Seahawks:

Brock Huard-1999-RD 3
Josh Booty-2001-RD 6
Jeff Kelly-2002-RD 7
Seneca Wallace-2003-RD 4
David Greene-2005-RD 3

Other QBs tutored by Holmgren in Green Bay, Seattle, as the 49ers' OC/QB coach, or at BYU:

Brett Favre
Steve Young
John Paye
Joe Montana

BJJ3rd
04-03-2010, 01:40 PM
Hey guys,

Just a quick question for you...

With the recent trade you guys completed, do you still see Haden as a possibility at 7 for the Browns? I mean of course its a possibility as anything is possible, but do you think its all that likely??

Thanks

wonderbredd24
04-03-2010, 01:54 PM
Hey guys,

Just a quick question for you...

With the recent trade you guys completed, do you still see Haden as a possibility at 7 for the Browns? I mean of course its a possibility as anything is possible, but do you think its all that likely??

Thanks

Absolutely still possible. I think Berry is the preference, but Haden or JPP or trading down would be the next set of choices

BJJ3rd
04-03-2010, 01:56 PM
Absolutely still possible. I think Berry is the preference, but Haden or JPP or trading down would be the next set of choices

alright thanks for the quick response.

as a steelers fan, i'm just hoping he slides within range that we could maybe trade up. haha unrealistic but i can dream. but yeah thank you.

keylime_5
04-03-2010, 02:54 PM
Haden definitely still in play. I think it's more likely we take a DB (Berry or Haden) than anything else at #7.

BJJ3rd
04-03-2010, 02:58 PM
Haden definitely still in play. I think it's more likely we take a DB (Berry or Haden) than anything else at #7.

thanks for the help

Brown Leader
04-03-2010, 04:48 PM
I disagree. Haden is no longer in play. Draft is deep with good CB prospects.

Safety is the #1 need for sure. Berry or Thomas is a strong possibility, then I'd say WR-Bryant then OL/DL, then LB.

JPP? He's a risky top ten but even more so as a OLB. Loving the possibility of a trade down, but who would want to come to #7 and for who? Guess this ought to go in the draft thread.

wonderbredd24
04-03-2010, 06:37 PM
I disagree. Haden is no longer in play. Draft is deep with good CB prospects.

Safety is the #1 need for sure. Berry or Thomas is a strong possibility, then I'd say WR-Bryant then OL/DL, then LB.

JPP? He's a risky top ten but even more so as a OLB. Loving the possibility of a trade down, but who would want to come to #7 and for who? Guess this ought to go in the draft thread.

You think this front office is going to take Dez Bryant? The guy is a moron, he needs a handler, and he still couldn't remember something as simple as his cleats.

I will be pissed if we take that ******, no matter how talented he might be.

keylime_5
04-03-2010, 07:47 PM
I think we take whoever is sitting on top of our draft board when we are on the clock (assuming we don't make a trade), which I think will be either Berry or Haden. I suppose a guy like Spiller or Williams could be that guy, but the positional value would be bad.

Brown Leader
04-04-2010, 08:09 AM
You think this front office is going to take Dez Bryant? The guy is a moron, he needs a handler, and he still couldn't remember something as simple as his cleats.

I will be pissed if we take that ******, no matter how talented he might be.

Yeah he'll def need a strong vet who can take him under his wing....we don't have that. But I don't doubt that Holmgren likes him.

Brown Leader
04-17-2010, 03:45 PM
Jennings arrested.
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/browns_running_back_arrested.html

Bad timing Chris.

fear the elf
04-20-2010, 11:43 AM
How would you grade out the Browns by position (or each individual player) right now? Going by the Plain Dealer depth chart (http://stats.cleveland.com/fb/teamstats.asp?yr=2010&tm=5&btnGo=Go&type=depthcharts), here is how we look:

OFFENSE
QB Delhomme
FB Vickers
RB Harrison/Hillis
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs
TE Watson
LT Thomas
LG Steinbach
C Mack
RG Womack
RT Pashos

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman/R. Smith
NT Rubin
RDE Rogers
LOLB Fujita
LILB Barton
RILB Jackson
ROLB Roth
LCB Wright
RCB Brown
SS Elam
FS Adams

*I took the liberty of moving Rogers to DE and Rubin to starting NT

Here is what I think (not a ton of thought put in, mind you):

OFFENSE
QB Delhomme :: B-
FB Vickers :: A
RB Harrison/Hillis :: B/B-
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs :: B-/C-/C-/D+
TE Watson :: B+
LT Thomas :: A+
LG Steinbach :: A-
C Mack :: B+
RG Womack :: C
RT Pashos :: B

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman/R. Smith :: C+/C+
NT Rubin :: B
RDE Rogers :: A-
LOLB Fujita :: B
LILB Barton :: C+
RILB Jackson :: B
ROLB Roth :: B+
LCB Wright :: B+
RCB Brown :: A-
SS Elam :: B-
FS Adams :: C-

Where do you think we need to make moves (aka - who needs to be replaced)? So... How do you think we grade out?

wonderbredd24
04-20-2010, 11:51 AM
How would you grade out the Browns by position (or each individual player) right now? Going by the Plain Dealer depth chart (http://stats.cleveland.com/fb/teamstats.asp?yr=2010&tm=5&btnGo=Go&type=depthcharts), here is how we look:

OFFENSE
QB Delhomme
FB Vickers
RB Harrison/Hillis
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs
TE Watson
LT Thomas
LG Steinbach
C Mack
RG Womack
RT Pashos

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman/R. Smith
NT Rubin
RDE Rogers
LOLB Fujita
LILB Barton
RILB Jackson
ROLB Roth
LCB Wright
RCB Brown
SS Elam
FS Adams

*I took the liberty of moving Rogers to DE and Rubin to starting NT

Here is what I think (not a ton of thought put in, mind you):

OFFENSE
QB Delhomme :: B-
FB Vickers :: A
RB Harrison/Hillis :: B/B-
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs :: B-/C-/C-/D+
TE Watson :: B+
LT Thomas :: A+
LG Steinbach :: A-
C Mack :: B+
RG Womack :: C
RT Pashos :: B

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman/R. Smith :: C+/C+
NT Rubin :: B
RDE Rogers :: A-
LOLB Fujita :: B
LILB Barton :: C+
RILB Jackson :: B
ROLB Roth :: B+
LCB Wright :: B+
RCB Brown :: A-
SS Elam :: B-
FS Adams :: C-

Where do you think we need to make moves (aka - who needs to be replaced)? So... How do you think we grade out?

OFFENSE
QB Delhomme :: C
FB Vickers :: A
RB Harrison/Hillis :: C+/B-
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs :: B-/C-/C-/D+
TE Watson :: B
LT Thomas :: A+
LG Steinbach :: C+
C Mack :: B+
RG Womack :: C-
RT Pashos :: B-

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman/R. Smith :: C/C
NT Rubin :: B
RDE Rogers :: A-
LOLB Fujita :: C
LILB Barton :: C-
RILB Jackson :: B-
ROLB Roth :: B
LCB Wright :: B+
RCB Brown :: B
SS Elam :: C
FS Adams :: C-

Safety, guard, defensive end, and while we have a pile of linebackers, none of them are all that great... and we need another running back and another corner

And the depth at most every position.

jriles0522
04-20-2010, 01:42 PM
OFFENSE
QB Delhomme C+
FB Vickers A
RB Harrison/Hillis C each, C+ as a unit
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs- C/C-/D/D---This is a joke.
TE Watson B
LT Thomas A+
LG Steinbach B
C Mack B+
RG Womack B-
RT Pashos B- (His play will be huge, I hope for better than average)

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman/R. Smith B-
NT Rubin B
RDE Rogers A-
LOLB Fujita B
LILB Barton B-
RILB Jackson B
ROLB Roth B+
LCB Wright A-
RCB Brown A-
SS Elam B-
FS Adams C+



Basically we have a bunch of average guys. I think WR is are weakest position.

We need studs at

WR
S
LB (both)

Brown Leader
04-20-2010, 02:23 PM
OFFENSE
QB Wallace C+
FB Vickers B
RB Harrison/Hillis/Cribbs B each
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs C/D/D/D
TE Watson B
LT Thomas A
LG Steinbach C+
C Mack A
RG Womack C
RT Pashos C

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman D
NT Rubin C+
RDE Rogers B
LOLB Gocong C
LILB Fujita B
RILB Jackson B
ROLB Roth B
LCB Wright C+
RCB Brown B
SS Elam D
FS Adams C

KR/PR Cribbs A+

Took liberty on a few spots. Clearly WR and S need the most help. But we should focus on running the ball and rushing the passer.

keylime_5
04-20-2010, 03:22 PM
I don't think they're moving Rogers to DE. I think Rogers starts at nose with Coleman and Smith at end with Rubin rotating in at NT. You gotta remember that Shaun isn't exactly a guy with a lot of endurance who plays too many snaps. They might play him some at DE b/c they like to move guys around up front, but he's the starting nose with Rubin and Mosley the 4th and 5th linemen rotating in. I expect our 6th DL will come in the draft.

QB-Delhomme/Wallace (D+)
RB-Harrison/Hillis/Davis/Jennings (B)
FB-Vickers (B+)
WR-Massaqoui/Robiskie/Cribbs/Stuckey (C-)
TE-Watson (C+)
LT-Thomas (A+)
LG-Steinbach (B)
C-Mack (A)
RG-Womack (C-)
RT-Pashos (C)

DE-Coleman (B-)
NT-Rogers/Rubin (A)
DE-Smith (B+)
OLB-Gocong/Bowens (B-)
ILB-Jackson (B+)
ILB-Fujita (B)
OLB-Roth (B+)
CB-Brown (A)
CB-Wright (A)
FS-Adams (C)
SS-Elam (C+)

we need to draft a lot of defensive players and I think it'll take at least 4 years to build a really good defensive core - though the mix of veterans and young role players we have right now can be a good scrappy unit as we saw at the end of the year at times. Offensively we need a franchise QB and a #1 WR really, everything else after that is trimmings.

keylime_5
04-20-2010, 06:02 PM
looks like we have a good chance to extend our winning streak to 5 or 6 games with week one and two matchups @TB and KC respectively.

http://www.nfl.com/schedules/interactive#/team=CLE

lacotomo
04-21-2010, 12:34 PM
Mike Adams was a safety playing corner, Mike Furrey is a wide receiver playing safety, to put it kindly Brandon McDonald is inconsistent, Hank Poteat is awful, and Abram Elam is an in-the-box safety

They threw at everyone else but Wright. Those statistics are absolutely meaningless.

I wouldn't say meaningless. When Deion had no ints and very few tackles because nobody threw to his side, was he considered not that great? Revis Island is usually pretty lonely a lot because nobody throws that way either, yet low stats don't make him average.

Before you get upset, I am not saying Wright is Deion or Revis, but if he is good enough for someone to not throw at all day (along with everyone else being bad), then that says something about his potential to be a high, high caliber player in this league. There are only a handful of corners who eliminate half the field. Let's see what he does with some help.

lacotomo
04-21-2010, 12:53 PM
Here's the deal:

You only should bring in 30+ year old veterans if you are primed to make a playoff run NOW.

The Browns are a TERRIBLE team with many, many holes, and zero stability at the QB position. Adding an aging, solid CB will not matter because he will only be an starter for 3 years tops, and there is nothing to indicate a playoff caliber team within that time frame. Again, you underestimate the importance of a QB.

Unless Jake Delhomme or Seneca Wallace magically turn into Peyton Manning overnight, or they draft Jimmy Clausen and he turns into Tom Brady within the next 2 years, this move really does make zero sense because a team like the Browns with so many holes and so few chances to be a playoff team should not be trading for aging veterans, and instead should be stockpiling draft picks to rebuild their roster into a talented young core.



Someone else mentioned the folly of not getting players unless they are prospects. Sure Brown might not play in a playoff game again in his career, but you need players like that to make you better so you can:
1. Develop/analyize players around him.(Is Wright that good, or will he be exposed when people throw his way).
2. Give your D line a chance to be disruptive.
3. Win some games a)for the fans, b) so free agents and everyone else doesn't look at Cleveland like an armpit of the NFL.
4. 2 words- STOP GAP. It gives us time to find the right long term fit, and watch out if he actually mentors some of the young guys.

In the end, Delhomme and Brown are great examples of leader type players that have done good things and can help stem the tide and keep Cleveland from being so terrible now, while building for the future. We gave up almost nothing for a starting DB, the most glaring weakness on this team for the past 2 years at least. Now the Haden love can stop (didn't like him anyway) and we can plug a different hole now and wait for the right spot in the draft, or free agent CB to help out when Brown is out of gas.

Iamcanadian
04-23-2010, 02:59 PM
OFFENSE
QB Delhomme C
FB Vickers C+
RB Harrison/Hillis C
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs- C-
TE Watson B
LT Thomas A+
LG Steinbach A-
C Mack B
RG Womack C
RT Pashos C

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman/R. Smith C
NT Rubin C-
RDE Rogers B+
LOLB Fujita C
LILB Barton C+
RILB Jackson B
ROLB Roth C
LCB Wright B
RCB Brown C+
SS Elam C-
FS Adams C-

fear the elf
04-23-2010, 03:17 PM
OFFENSE
QB Delhomme C
FB Vickers C+
RB Harrison/Hillis C
WR Massaquoi/Robiskie/Stuckey/Cribbs- C-
TE Watson B
LT Thomas A+
LG Steinbach A-
C Mack B
RG Womack C
RT Pashos C

DEFENSE
LDE Coleman/R. Smith C
NT Rubin C-
RDE Rogers B+
LOLB Fujita C
LILB Barton C+
RILB Jackson B
ROLB Roth C
LCB Wright B
RCB Brown C+
SS Elam C-
FS Adams C-

Whoa whoa whoa. You gave Vickers a C+? Not cool man. Not cool at all.

keylime_5
04-23-2010, 04:20 PM
i wouldn't call 'Canadian the most optomistic poster, you're lucky he got the "+" instead of just the "C."

Iamcanadian
04-23-2010, 09:05 PM
Whoa whoa whoa. You gave Vickers a C+? Not cool man. Not cool at all.

I think we have a few guys who can get better, Vickers and Mack among them but I'm just being realistic at this point and not getting too carried away until we start to win more than we lose.

keylime_5
04-25-2010, 12:16 PM
53 MAN ROSTER EARLY PREDICTIONS!!!

QB(3)-Jake Delhomme, Seneca Wallace, Colt McCoy
RB(3)-Jerome Harrison, Montario Hardesty, Petyon Hillis
FB(1)-Lawrence Vickers
WR(5)-Mohamed Massaquoi, Brian Robiskie, Joshua Cribbs, Chansi Stuckey, Carlton Mitchell
TE(3)-Benjamin Watson, Robert Royal, Evan Moore
OL(9)-Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Eric Steinbach, Tony Pashos, Floyd Womack, John St.Clair, Eric Ghiaciuc, Jason Capizzi, Shawn Lauvao

DL(6)-Shaun Rogers, Robaire Smith, Kenyon Coleman, Ahtyba Rubin, CJ Mosley, Clifton Geathers
LB(9)-D'Qwell Jackson, Matt Roth, Scott Fujita, David Bowens, Chris Gocong, Jason Trusnik, Marcus Benard, Kaluka Maiava, Blake Constanzo
CB(6)-Sheldon Brown, Eric Wright, Joe Haden, Brandon McDonald, Gerard Lawson, Coye Francies
S(5)-Abram Elam, Mike Adams, TJ Ward, Larry Asante, Nick Sorenson

ST(3)-Phil Dawson, Dave Zastudil, Ryan Pontbriand


BUBBLES JUUUST POPPED: James Davis, David Veikune

I figure it's Maiava vs Veikune for the last ILB spot and Sorenson vs Ventrone for the special teams safety. If we keep 5 backs instead of 4 then Davis could make the roster, but it's hard finding how to fit him in. They usually keep 6 guys, but it will be interesting to see which ones get the 5th and 6th spots. Lawson I guess since he plays special teams, and I would guess Francies is in as long as he isn't bad and if we don't sign any veteran corners.

Overall we've come a long way talent-wise compared to 2004 when Butch was fired. Granted we did take a step back after unloading Edwards, Winslow, Stallworth, Jurevicius, Anderson, and all the talent we had when we decided to rebuild again after firing Crennel...but we weren't going anywhere with those guys.

wonderbredd24
04-29-2010, 01:20 PM
Browns | Ahtyba Rubin could start this season
Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:34:28 -0400

Cleveland Browns DL Ahtyba Rubin could start at nose tackle this season, reports Tony Grossi, of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.
Browns | Could move Shaun Rogers to DE
Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:31:11 -0400

The Cleveland Browns could move DT Shaun Rogers to defensive end this season, reports Tony Grossi, of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.
Browns | Several RFAs still unsigned
Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:27:30 -0400

Cleveland Browns restricted free-agent FB Lawrence Vickers, RB Jerome Harrison, LB Matt Roth, LB D'Qwell Jackson and FS Abram Elam have not signed their tender offers and have been absent from the team's offseason conditioning program, reports the Cleveland Plain Dealer's Tony Grossi.
Browns | Could look to add veteran WR
Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:27:05 -0400

The Cleveland Browns may look to add a veteran wide receiver through free agency before the season, reports Tony Grossi, of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.
I hope the stuff with Rubin and Rogers is true

keylime_5
04-29-2010, 02:21 PM
Rubin is a guy you want to be in rotation, so Rogers is gonna play at least half of the nose tackle snaps b/c we don't have a 2nd guy to play with Rubin if Rogers were to be a full time end (which is what we heard a lot of last year with all the BJ Raji first round speculation). I expect Rogers will move around a lot kinda like how they moved Mosley and Williams around a lot last year.

wonderbredd24
04-29-2010, 02:24 PM
Athyba Rubin is a better nose tackle in our 3-4 system than Shaun Rogers. Period.

jriles0522
04-29-2010, 09:10 PM
I have high hopes for our defense.

Second year under Rob Ryan, hopefully he's got a year to evaluate the players' strengths and weaknesses, and makes necessary adjustments. We'll see what he can do with a much improved secondary.

I look for Haden, Wright, and Brown to be such an unbelievable upgrade over Wright, B-Mac, and Poteat. I can't even believe we fielded those 3 corners on an NFL roster. The safety play was just as bad, if not worse. Mike Furrey/Adams and Elam? What a joke. TJ Ward is probably the best safety on our roster right now and I've never even seen him play (except the Rose Bowl).

We've been scorched so many times by big passing performances it was impossible to watch these clowns last year at times. I have high expectations for these guys in the defensive backfield.

I think we have enough bodies at linebacker to find some decent combos. I'm looking forward to seeing who comes out of this pile as the key 5-6 guys. I don't think Veikune will ever get it, but maybe we can be surprised.

wonderbredd24
04-29-2010, 09:22 PM
I don't think Veikune will ever get it, but maybe we can be surprised.
Why do you think he won't ever get it?

jriles0522
04-29-2010, 09:46 PM
Why do you think he won't ever get it?

I guess I don't have that great of a reason. My first thought was how could a guy not even get on the field as a 2nd round pick when our entire team was decimated at LB. I mean Titus Brown, Marcus Benard, Matt Roth, Kaluka Maluka, Justin Trusnick? All those guys played ahead of him last year. Clearly he didn't get whatever the coaches were trying to get him to do. Especially since they had to think he would make a fairly smooth transition to reach for him in round 2 knowing they were going to convert him anyway. That, and the fact that he's from Hawaii? Can't exactly name any defensive stalwarts. And don't give me Travis LeBoy.

So that was my initial answer, until I realized how similar Robiskie's year was to his, and I think Robo will be fine. I think Robiskie has more talent, I've seen him play a ton, and he was a fringe first rounder, supposed to be most polished, NFL ready WR in the draft last year. Somehow, for reasons we'll never know, he didn't get on the ******* field either.

So you ask a decent question, maybe just because one guy's a converted DE from Hawaii, via a JR college and the others a polished WR from OSU.

Not the greatest answer, but maybe it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

keylime_5
04-29-2010, 09:49 PM
well Veikune's problem definitely isn't understanding the concepts of the defense or the X's and O's. It's probably a lot to do with his physical transition from the WAC to the NFL as a rookie, moving from DE to ILB no less. This is the year we find out if he's gonna be a scrub or potentially a player.

wonderbredd24
04-29-2010, 09:52 PM
I guess I don't have that great of a reason. My first thought was how could a guy not even get on the field as a 2nd round pick when our entire team was decimated at LB. I mean Titus Brown, Marcus Benard, Matt Roth, Kaluka Maluka, Justin Trusnick? All those guys played ahead of him last year. Clearly he didn't get whatever the coaches were trying to get him to do. Especially since they had to think he would make a fairly smooth transition to reach for him in round 2 knowing they were going to convert him anyway. That, and the fact that he's from Hawaii? Can't exactly name any defensive stalwarts. And don't give me Travis LeBoy.

So that was my initial answer, until I realized how similar Robiskie's year was to his, and I think Robo will be fine. I think Robiskie has more talent, I've seen him play a ton, and he was a fringe first rounder, supposed to be most polished, NFL ready WR in the draft last year. Somehow, for reasons we'll never know, he didn't get on the ******* field either.

So you ask a decent question, maybe just because one guy's a converted DE from Hawaii, via a JR college and the others a polished WR from OSU.

Not the greatest answer, but maybe it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
Personally, I always figured last year was going to be a redshirt year for Veikune because he was going from a defensive end with some experience as nose tackle of all things and was going to learn both outside and inside linebacker. That's a lot for anyone to digest, so it didn't bother me that he didn't do much last year. This year, after a full year, I think it's time for him to start showing up in camp and such.

I'm more concerned about Robiskie, but honestly I think he will be fine as well.

jriles0522
04-29-2010, 10:45 PM
well Veikune's problem definitely isn't understanding the concepts of the defense or the X's and O's. It's probably a lot to do with his physical transition from the WAC to the NFL as a rookie, moving from DE to ILB no less. This is the year we find out if he's gonna be a scrub or potentially a player.

Ha, both of you guys have totally different reasons for why he didn't make it. I tend to lean towards scheme. Who knows.

Brown Leader
04-30-2010, 01:44 AM
I don't think there's any mystery to it whatsoever. They didn't show enough to the coaches to earn playing time.

My guess-I think Robiskie's issue was his strength. With his lack of suddenness and speed he needs to push people around. Veikune is not fluid enough.

fear the elf
04-30-2010, 09:43 AM
I don't think there's any mystery to it whatsoever. They didn't show enough to the coaches to earn playing time.

My guess-I think Robiskie's issue was his strength. With his lack of suddenness and speed he needs to push people around. Veikune is not fluid enough.

Not fluid enough to be a thumping ILB?

Brown Leader
05-03-2010, 07:24 PM
Not fluid enough to be a thumping ILB?
He still has to change direction and move laterally like a LB.

On a different note-why aren't we taking a look at Javon Walker?

wonderbredd24
05-03-2010, 07:26 PM
He still has to change direction and move laterally like a LB.

On a different note-why aren't we taking a look at Javon Walker?
On top of the knee injury, the guy's life completely changed the night Darrent Williams died. He may have lost whatever it was that made him special that night.

Brown Leader
05-03-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm surprised Holmgren is not interested in even taking a look. For the league minimum, that's low risk, possible high reward at our weakest position.

keylime_5
05-04-2010, 01:33 PM
Ha, both of you guys have totally different reasons for why he didn't make it. I tend to lean towards scheme. Who knows.

well it's really the same. You can know a defense inside and out and still struggle adapting to the speed of the NFL game and the size of NFL Olinemen. It's not easy to figure out how to play ILB and OLB in an NFL defense after playing DE and even DT all your career before. I think Veikune understands the concepts and philosophy of the defense. He's a smart kid who excelled when the staff grilled him on the Xs and Os of their defense, but he's not an elite athlete and he is going from Hawaii and the WAC to the NFL and changing positions.

keylime_5
05-04-2010, 01:35 PM
I think I'd rather go for Coles, Owens, or Curtis than Walker. Walker seems to have taken a nose dive after the Williams murder as mentioned. Not sure getting a veteran like that will help us that much in the long term. We'd have to get rid of either Stuckey or Mitchell if we sign a veteran and I think I'd rather take the lumps and keep the young guys on the roster for now. We should add a true #1 next offseason.

The Dude Abides
05-05-2010, 09:02 AM
I think Veikune's problem is that he isn't good enough. "Redshirt" year or not, a second round pick on a crappy team should at least play some.

Keylime, I'd like to ask you something... Did yo really just say that you'd rather have Chansi ******* Stuckey than a fairly credible receiver like Kevin Curtis?

BuckeyeDan17
05-05-2010, 09:59 AM
No, he said he would rather keep stuckey than go after Walker.

wonderbredd24
05-05-2010, 10:21 AM
I'd rather keep Chansi Stuckey than go after Kevin Curtis.

I think he's a decent player, but we didn't have a quarterback who could throw last season so who would know?

Go with the young kids... see who can sink or swim

The Dude Abides
05-05-2010, 12:28 PM
I'd rather keep Chansi Stuckey than go after Kevin Curtis.

I think he's a decent player, but we didn't have a quarterback who could throw last season so who would know?

Go with the young kids... see who can sink or swim

Stuckey isn't even all that young anymore. He's 27 in early October, in his fourth year and has 62 career receptions. He has already had chances to sink or swim... and he sunk like a stone.

Curtis is 32 (I had no idea he was that old, I pegged at 29 or so) and the other free agent options are old as well, but they might suck less. I'm all for building young and blah, blah, blah but my god there is a limit. I kinda like to WATCH the Browns, but our WR's are unwatchably bad

keylime_5
05-06-2010, 09:38 AM
Well what i said is that if we sign a veteran we might be better for it this season, but next season we wouldn't know exactly what we have in some of the young guys like Robiskie, Mitchell, or Stuckey b/c the veteran would be stealing their minutes. If we don't sign a veteran then that means Robiskie or whoever gets to see the field a lot more and we'll know what we have going into next offseason - so we would know if we need to just bring in one new receiver in 2011 or several. I think signing a veteran would mean Mitchell likely gone to the practice squad where he becomes fair game for other teams. I would much rather keep him on the active roster and let him develop than sign a veteran for one year.

jriles0522
05-17-2010, 01:18 PM
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/05/cleveland_browns_lb_matt_roth.html

Roth asks to be traded. Sweet dude, he's represented by Rosenhaus just like Elam and Vickers.

We need him pretty bad, but how about some thanks for picking your ass off the waiver wire you *****.

fear the elf
05-17-2010, 01:42 PM
Yeah, I saw this too. Is he just trying to get a contract or does he really hate it here that much?

I mean come on, he was given away by the Dolphins. We signed him and made him a starter. He can't even stick it out for a full season?

He has no leverage at this point though. Good luck with that trade Matt.

BuckeyeDan17
05-17-2010, 07:46 PM
Dear Matt Roth,

Thank you for giving the people who gave you a chance to get your career on track the middle finger. And don't worry, you will get what's coming to you with that piss poor attitude.

Sincerely,

Browns fan going through Cleveland Sports

j05son
05-18-2010, 01:25 AM
Roth is going no where. Heckert already announced it but we all should have already knew that. He has no leverage, he's a Brown next season.

Also, I want to go on record that LBJ will remain in Cleveland as well.

wonderbredd24
05-18-2010, 07:42 PM
Roth and his agent are playing the game... it is what it is. I don't think it's going to do him much good and if Heckert signs him to a long term deal, it better be loaded with incentives that keep Roth working hard since there were concerns he wasn't playing when he probably could have in Miami

I do hope the Jackson, Roth, and Vickers deals do not impact negotiations with the rookie class though

fear the elf
05-26-2010, 12:16 PM
Hines is now the most active poster in the Browns forum. So sad :(

Brown Leader
06-01-2010, 02:11 PM
The Browns are implementing a package of plays for their athletic quarterback Seneca Wallace called the Cyclone.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/398713-cleveland-browns-offseaon-moves-have-josh-cribbs-poised-for-big-year

Daboll under more pressure than any other assistant this season? Yup. The odds Holmgren is the HC in 2011-12? I'd say pretty good.

wonderbredd24
06-01-2010, 02:26 PM
The bleacher report is written by... anyone who feels like it, so it's not a source whatsoever, however Josh Cribbs mentioned the Cyclone package at the last OTA when a reporter couldn't piece together where the Cyclone and Flash package names came from.

As for Holmgren, A. I doubt it and B. I certainly hope not

I do agree about Brian Daboll though

Brown Leader
06-16-2010, 06:10 PM
* Eric Mangini's hesitance to name Jake Delhomme his starting quarterback for the opening of camp.
Dust of the team board. If I may get into the mind of Mangini for a moment.

It's early and there's really no reason to name a starter now but...is it any wonder Gini is reluctant to name a starter. My guess is this will carry on into training camp. First Gini has a questionable history with assessing his QB's-Pennington/Clemens-Quinn/Anderson and second, he needs to win now or at least show marked improvement to keep his job-which means...

Lining up the same offense late in the year that ran the ball and focused on Cribbs is doubtful to be successful to start this year. Our opponents have had an off season to gameplan against this. Opening up the passing game with a focus on the TE's and a scrambling/running QB could be just the counterpunch the offense needs. And a running QB would ensure a dominant run game this season.

But if Heckert/Holmgren's plan is to draft a franchise QB early in the 11' draft, than I'll expect to see Delhomme the starter for most of the year and a new head coach. Imo drafting for the secondary this year, while needed, was also to take advantage of what Mangini knows best, before he's out the door.

Basically I'm making a case for Wallace as the starter. But still big board would be

1.QB J.Johnson[cause we won't have the #1 pk & Locker]
2.WR Green
3.OLB/DE Quinn

wonderbredd24
06-16-2010, 06:33 PM
Much depends on what you are willing to believe...

If you believe Jake Delhomme's assertion that much of his struggles last year were due to the fact that he was not healthy, then he should bounce back this year as he says he is now healthy

Mangini has a questionable history of assessing QBs? More like he's had **** at quarterback save Favre

I have no idea what Mangini needs to do to keep Holmgren happy, but I don't think Mangini is going anywhere just yet and I think he's a good coach that should be better since he's able to focus more as a coach this year and the players notice and appreciate the difference.

As for Cribbs... what was to figure out? The Browns could not throw... at all. Dead last in passing. In fact, the Browns ran for more yards than they passed; the only team to do that. If what they did last year won't work, it's because the Browns aren't playing the Chiefs, Raiders, Jags, and a Steeler team that quit.

I do think the running game is going to be good... instead of the corpse of Jamal Lewis, the Browns have Jerome Harrison, Montario Hardesty, Peyton Hillis, and we'll see what James Davis can do running behind Mack in his 2nd year and Vickers.

And if Delhomme can provide even competent QB play, the Browns passing game will be substantially better and I expect Massaquoi to have a nice year. Plus, everyone is praising how much better Robiskie is this year, which would be an enormous help

I will be very surprised if this team doesn't start out 2-0, but after that, it's going to be a rough going... hopefully starting out 2-0 will give this team some confidence going forward and like last year, Mangini can get them to win a game or two they had no business winning

j05son
06-21-2010, 04:38 PM
Steinbach has been getting some time at LT as Joe's primary backup if anything were to happen to him. There have been a lot of rotations on the right side seeing which set is going to work the best:

Luavao at RG, Pashos at RT
Luavao at RG, St. Clair at RT
Womack at RG, Pashos at RT
Pashos at RG, St. Clair at RT

Have been seen the most. Also, Robiskie is being called the MVP of OTA's and Minicamp.

Hines
06-22-2010, 12:41 PM
The other OLB is up.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41625

Hines
06-25-2010, 01:16 PM
MLB is up.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41665

wonderbredd24
06-25-2010, 03:10 PM
Steinbach has been getting some time at LT as Joe's primary backup if anything were to happen to him. There have been a lot of rotations on the right side seeing which set is going to work the best:

Luavao at RG, Pashos at RT
Luavao at RG, St. Clair at RT
Womack at RG, Pashos at RT
Pashos at RG, St. Clair at RT

Have been seen the most. Also, Robiskie is being called the MVP of OTA's and Minicamp.
Anything that has St. Clair on the field is a failure... he is awful. He doesn't have a kick slide. He blocks down on everything, no matter what

j05son
06-27-2010, 01:00 AM
Anything that has St. Clair on the field is a failure... he is awful. He doesn't have a kick slide. He blocks down on everything, no matter what

I agree, I was just copypasta what sites have been saying regarding our ota's, minycamp. I think Pashos is a starter, he's not getting paid that much to sit on the bench. I always thought Womack got a bad rep last year; that is was more St. Clair than him. Who knows, I'm excited to see Luavao as well.

wonderbredd24
06-27-2010, 08:27 AM
I agree, I was just copypasta what sites have been saying regarding our ota's, minycamp. I think Pashos is a starter, he's not getting paid that much to sit on the bench. I always thought Womack got a bad rep last year; that is was more St. Clair than him. Who knows, I'm excited to see Luavao as well.
Womack was surprisingly solid at right tackle when the Browns had to use him and Fraley as our right side.

I agree that he probably did get a bad wrap because St. Clair was awful.

I am very concerned about Pashos's ability to kick out and stop outside linebackers rushing the passer, but he and Womack should get a tremendous push in the run game

Hines
06-28-2010, 12:07 PM
2nd best MLB is up.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41689

Hines
07-03-2010, 02:13 PM
CB is up.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41769

Hines
07-07-2010, 06:37 PM
Best K is up.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41798

Hines
07-10-2010, 02:36 PM
What role will Cribbs have this season? Is he going to get more touches on offense? Will he be playing WR full time?

kalbears13
07-13-2010, 08:37 PM
My dad made this for one of my relative's new kids and thought you guys would appreciate it. I would have made a new thread but this thread isn't getting any action so I thought I would add something...

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o292/kaddyescalade/0712001328.jpg

wonderbredd24
07-13-2010, 08:40 PM
What role will Cribbs have this season? Is he going to get more touches on offense? Will he be playing WR full time?
He's never developed into a worthwhile wide receiver and while I suppose it could happen, it's incredibly unlikely.

Cribbs will be used much like he was last year as a wildcat QB, but there are also packages that will have he and Seneca Wallace on the field at the same time, so it remains to be seen how many touches he will get on offense, but that's the primary way he will get them.

keylime_5
07-13-2010, 09:33 PM
he's now Mr.Cleveland Sports too. Big off-field role.

j05son
07-14-2010, 02:03 AM
What role will Cribbs have this season? Is he going to get more touches on offense? Will he be playing WR full time?

He's going to be used similarly to how he was used last year. Cleveland will be running a lot of elements from Holmgren's WCO with wildcat and a new package called cyclone that will feature both Cribbs and Wallace on the field. He will also be on special teams but with a more limited role since he should be lining up offensively a bit more.

New offense is being dubbed the North Coast Offense. =]

My dad made this for one of my relative's new kids and thought you guys would appreciate it. I would have made a new thread but this thread isn't getting any action so I thought I would add something...

xd.

he's now Mr.Cleveland Sports too. Big off-field role.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h82/pseas/cribbs.jpg

Brown Leader
07-14-2010, 02:31 PM
If Cribbs gets more touches and proves to be a greater game-changer than he was last season he could change the NFL game. This type could become a staple and every team will covet one.

I'm drawing a blank on any other NFL player, present or past-who like Cribbs,
does not have a true position but is the key player of the teams offense....?

wonderbredd24
07-14-2010, 02:47 PM
Tom Matti of the Colts was this type of player

Brown Leader
07-27-2010, 10:15 PM
Y'know, come to think of it, it's already started. Bush, Harvin, Tebow, McCluster are all similar types w/o a true position. I suppose it's not that uncommon either it's just that Cribbs is more effective at it than most-and he was glaring on a talent derived squad.

And going back not quite as far as Matti, our own Metcalf for a time was the biggest playmaker on the team without a position of his own.

wonderbredd24
07-27-2010, 10:27 PM
Y'know, come to think of it, it's already started. Bush, Harvin, Tebow, McCluster are all similar types w/o a true position. I suppose it's not that uncommon either it's just that Cribbs is more effective at it than most-and he was glaring on a talent derived squad.

And going back not quite as far as Matti, our own Metcalf for a time was the biggest playmaker on the team without a position of his own.

No, Metcalf had a position... he was a halfback. He SHOULD have been a guy you put all over the field like the guys you mentioned, but that didn't happen here. And then when we traded him to Atlanta, they made him a slot receiver and he had 100+ catches for them that season.

Brown Leader
07-29-2010, 06:57 AM
2010 Pre-Camp predictions?

I read a position analysis of the Browns recently and felt like throwing in my take.

UNIT-BY-UNIT ANALYSIS

QUARTERBACKS: Starter -- Jake Delhomme. Backups -- Seneca Wallace, Brett Ratliff, Colt McCoy.

Delhomme didn’t have just one bad season in Carolina. He’s been the weak link for that squad for quite awhile. He’s the most accomplished QB on the roster so it’s understandable that he’s expected to start but I have little doubt Seneca is the better QB. At this stage Wallace would give the team a better chance to win games this year.

It serves the team no good playing an aged vet like Delhomme rather than seeing what Seneca can do as a starting QB. If you figure that Colt is a career back up-which I do-then a first round QB is a lock next year with so many good ones potentially available (preferably Jarrod Johnson). This team will have to surprise to come up with any wins in the division this year. Seneca as the starter would give the appearance of having a wildcat look on every play. If he’s in over his head and is truly a career back up you always have the teary eyed vet to fall back on.

RUNNING BACKS: Starter -- Jerome Harrison. Backups -- Montario Hardesty, Peyton Hillis, James Davis, Chris Jennings, FB Lawrence Vickers.

With the generous help of the O line and Vickers I fully expect Harrison to start where he left off last season. He is like a slower Brian Westbrook. At some point Hardesty will be the starting back but not this year. He’ll have to show his timed speed in games to beat out Jennings and Davis and lock down the complimentary role to Harrison.

TIGHT ENDS: Starter -- Ben Watson. Backups -- Robert Royal, Evan Moore, Joel Gamble.

I’ve read our TE position is weak this season but I don’t see it. Watson is coming off an injury plagued year. If not for playing with two likely hof WR’s for the last few(umm… probably not Welker) I think he would have made more of a name for himself by now. He’ll get double the looks he normally got in NE. Royal is a solid run blocking TE. Moore will push Watson for playing time and should be a factor week to week-and a big factor if I’m wrong about Watson.

WIDE RECEIVERS: Starters -- Mohamed Massaquoi, Brian Robiskie. Backups -- Josh Cribbs, Chansi Stuckey, Bobby Engram, Jake Allen, Johnathan Haggerty, Carlton Mitchell, Syndric Steptoe.

The scariest unit on the team. I don’t want to think what could happen here if the injury bug hits this position. Mohmass has the look of a guy who can develop into a #1. Robiskie should get plenty opportunities to test his strength and toughness (his weakness as a rookie imo) playing against Brown and Haden in camp but I’ll believe it when I see it. The surprise guy here I think will be Cribbs-after thrust into the starting role early last season I think he’ll be much more prepared to be a factor at this position. Odd man out will be Stuckey-beaten out by old man Engram.

OFFENSIVE LINEMEN: Starters -- LT Joe Thomas, LG Eric Steinbach, C Alex Mack, RG Floyd Womack, RT Tony Pashos. Backups -- RT John St. Clair, G Shawn Lauvao, G/C Billy Yates, OL Joel Reindeers, G Pat Murray, OT Scott Kooistra, OL Paul Fanaika, OL Casey Bender.

Clearly the strength of the team. Pro bowl play from Mack and a solid right side could allow us to dictate to our opponents and open up big plays in the passing game-plus keep the d fresh and allow Ryan to blitzkrieg likes he wants too and force big plays.

DEFENSIVE LINEMEN: Starters -- LDE Kenyon Coleman, NT Shaun Rogers, RDE Robaire Smith. Backups -- NT Ahtyba Rubin, NT Brian Schaefering, DE Derrick Robinson, NT Titus Adams, DL Kwaku Danso, DE Clifton Geathers, DT Swanson Miller, DL C.J. Mosley, DL Brian Sanford.

I actually like this unit a lot this season. Rubin will be the defensive breakout player and get some pro bowl attention. Schaefring could push his way into a starting role at DE. Rogers, when healthy, will play like his occasional dominant self. Coleman, Smith, Geathers will all contribute well.

LINEBACKERS: Starters -- WLB David Bowens, ILB Scott Fujita, MLB D'Qwell Jackson. SLB Matt Roth. Backups -- OLB Marcus Benard, ILB Eric Barton, ILB Titus Brown, ILB Blake Costanzo, OLB Chris Gocong, ILB Kaluka Maiava, ILB David Veikune, LB Jason Trusnik.

This is a mess. One of the top priorities in the 11’ draft will be to get some speed into this position. On a positive note this unit is filled with tough physical guys who can plug a hole. How well the blitzes are executed will be huge since everyone will be coming from everywhere and there aren’t any top notch pass rushers. I say Roth probably leads the team in sacks.

DEFENSIVE BACKS: Starters -- LCB Eric Wright, RCB Sheldon Brown, FS D.J. Ward, SS Abe Elam. Backups -- CB Joe Haden, CB Brandon McDonald, CB/S Mike Adams, SS Larry Asante, S Nick Sorensen, CB Coye Francies, S Ray Ventrone, CB Gerard Lawson, DB Chris Chancellor, DB Chris Roberson, CB DeAngelo Smith.

Mangini coached one of the most physical secondaries in the league while he was at NE. This is probably what they were going for but I think this unit will struggle mightily if the rookies get on the field. Not for lack of talent but rookies DBs get broken in. I won’t be surprised if Asante starts before Ward either. But a starting unit of Wright-Brown-Elam(Asante)-Adams looks superior to last year’s. I’m looking forward to seeing weekly smackdowns eventually.

SPECIAL TEAMS: K Phil Dawson, P Dave Zastudil, P Reggie Hodges, LS Ryan Pontbriand, PR Josh Cribbs, KR Cribbs.

It’s going to be interesting to see how opponents will deal with the greatest kick off returner of all time this season.

Shahin
07-31-2010, 02:37 AM
I'd start Wallace over Delhomme too. Dude sucks.

keylime_5
08-05-2010, 12:12 PM
Delhomme may not be that great, though I expect him to be much better than he was last year which was about as bad as can be....but we sure are a lot better off at QB than we were last year with Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn, yikes. Guys couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from 10 yards away. Seneca Wallace impressed my everytime he was called upon in Seattle, so if Jake stinks early we can fall back on a guy who won't be bad. Our accuracy in the passing game should go way up this year regardless.

Brown Leader
08-10-2010, 05:33 PM
I'm getting a little concerned at Pashos setbacks-St.Claire starting again would be a serious liability.

BuckeyeDan17
08-11-2010, 10:17 AM
Shawn L has been working with the first team a bit at RG, hasn't he?

wonderbredd24
08-11-2010, 10:23 AM
If healthy, Pashos is definitely our right tackle. And I'm excited to see Lauvao in preseason.

Unfortunately, our players are starting to drop like flies. Jackson is probably done as a Brown. Hopefully Maiava and Veikune can do something or we'll be looking at inside linebacker in the draft... again.

If Wright's injury isn't serious, it could be a blessing in disguise to get Haden more reps.

Marcus Benard is dinged up. Incredibly frustrating

Brown Leader
08-25-2010, 11:29 PM
Heading into the last meaningful preseason game for the starters I must say I'm surprised about Jake. I figured Wallace would be making a push about now.

And it's really enjoyable to sit back and watch DA and Quinn look like hot garbage and not have to root for them.

Ward is looking enough like that other #43 I might change my sig. Whether Colt's cut or not I'd like to think QB will be the top priority next draft.

Wallace's chemistry with Cribbs is one of the most intriguing things I've seen so far on offense. I'm half expecting to see QB by committee from Mangini and not sure what to make of that.

Brown Leader
09-21-2010, 05:39 PM
Is Harrison making "business decisions" out there running the ball?

He's not happy about the contract situation or the drafting of ,what was at the time, a potential franchise back. Maby it's simply about less touches but he seems to be lacking the abandon he regularly runs with. Is sharing carries with Hillis a consequence of this or just a function of the new offense? Or simply the run game as a unit just not getting it done?

It's certainly not unheard of for players to make business decisions when they're not happy contractually or otherwise. (Ricky-Moss-Chad-Jlew, come to mind)

The critical mistakes by the QB's in the first two emphasizes the need for a true difference maker at the position that ought to addressed in the first round in April but I'd still rather roll with Wallace than Jake for now.

A Vincent Jackson deal seems like an ideal trade for this squad trying to put building blocks in place...just sayin.

wonderbredd24
09-21-2010, 05:45 PM
Jerome Harrison became a ***** in the offseason. He's hesitant and he fumbles.

Peyton Hillis is a monster when he can hold onto the ball.

It's time to go get a franchise QB. The team is in a decent position for a new signal caller and it's a good draft to get one.

Vincent Jackson? I just don't know... he's pretty good, but I hesitate to give up the pick or picks needed to get him and at the moment and we have no one to get him the ball right now. And AJ Smith is a dick

Brown Leader
10-01-2010, 10:16 AM
Well my guy certainly didn't look like a 1st round pick last night. Might have to change my sig after back to back lackluster showings.

wonderbredd24
10-01-2010, 11:25 AM
Well my guy certainly didn't look like a 1st round pick last night. Might have to change my sig after back to back lackluster showings.

He's a project with a lot of tools... need to fix his throwing motion and work on him with his footwork, specifically shortening it up.

I like the fact that when Johnson scrambles in the pocket, he's still looking for someone to throw the ball, but we need a franchise QB instead of a project.

Mr. Goosemahn
10-11-2010, 03:39 PM
Mangini said Colt McCoy might very well make his first career start against Pittsburgh on Sunday.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?id=5699&sport=NFL

Thoughts?

wonderbredd24
10-11-2010, 06:59 PM
He sucked ass in preseason and probably hasn't had any snaps between then and this week, so I expect he will continue to suck ass.

BLACK_&_YELLOW
10-13-2010, 11:03 PM
I just wanna stop by and wish the Browns the best of luck, especially McCoy. Hope he makes it out of this game in one piece.

D-Unit
10-16-2010, 12:02 PM
PM me if interested in being the GM of your team in our forum mock!

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43261

ElectricEye
11-07-2010, 03:01 PM
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/610/comicy.jpg

I made this instead of watching you guys rape us at the end, hope you guys like it.

Nalej
11-07-2010, 05:41 PM
Congratz fellas, on whoopin our ass

The Unseen
11-21-2010, 03:10 PM
Good game fellas. Sucks you couldn't punch it in. You guys have heart and should be a force to be reckoned with next year.

kalbears13
12-06-2010, 02:17 PM
Cleveland @ Buffalo
Cleveland @ Cincinnati
Baltimore @ Cleveland
Pittsburgh @ Cleveland

Where does Cleveland finish? Do they finish like last year and go 4-0 in their last 4 (9-7)? I think they split the last two and go 2-2, losing to one of those two horrible teams but beating either the Steelers or Baltimore at home. I think it also depends on the QB situation too...

(I just really wanted to get discussion back up in the Browns forum)

wonderbredd24
12-06-2010, 02:21 PM
The Buffalo game worries me for a few reasons

This game against Miami was physically very tough and that could carry over into what could be a miserably cold game against a team who does not quit.

If they can win that, they go to a pretty empty Bengals stadium. If they win that, I wonder if Colt McCoy is suddenly able to go for the last 2 games with a 7-7 record, but Jake Delhomme has the power to lose the Browns any of these games, so who the **** really knows?

fear the elf
12-06-2010, 03:12 PM
I'm thinking 2-2 as well. I'm not sure how it will play out tho. I could easily see us dropping to one of the bad teams and then surprising either Pitt or Balt. 7-9 is a successful season in my eyes.

Has anyone heard what McCoy's progress is like with that ankle sprain? When is he projected to come back?

kalbears13
12-06-2010, 03:29 PM
I'm thinking 2-2 as well. I'm not sure how it will play out tho. I could easily see us dropping to one of the bad teams and then surprising either Pitt or Balt. 7-9 is a successful season in my eyes.

Has anyone heard what McCoy's progress is like with that ankle sprain? When is he projected to come back?

Holmgren says he's not going to put him in unless he's 100% so possibly not at all this season. But there's nothing concrete in when he'll be able to come back from what I've seen.

fear the elf
12-06-2010, 03:45 PM
Holmgren says he's not going to put him in unless he's 100% so possibly not at all this season. But there's nothing concrete in when he'll be able to come back from what I've seen.

Interesting. That's the right call, although I'd like to see him get more time in the offense and see him throw in the poor weather over the next 4 games.

TheMorningZoo
12-08-2010, 04:50 PM
Hey guys I am having a hard time mocking your slot @ 13. Potential prospects Off the board are : Julio Jones, Nick Fairley, Robert Quinn, Marcell Dareus, and AJ Green.

I know WR/DE is no. 1 concern, but it might be a reach for Blackmon or Baldwin at WR, and Heyward, Jordan, Bailey or Watt at DE.

What do you guys think?

MattyFos
12-09-2010, 09:06 AM
Linebacker is needed as well as WR and DE.

wonderbredd24
12-09-2010, 10:33 AM
Anything that is not a nose tackle in the front 7 is a big need.

MattyFos
12-10-2010, 09:36 PM
I haven't been on DC for a couple of months.. Please tell me that the people in here don't have a boner for Colt McCoy like all of the other browns sites I frequent. He's playing well, and I shouldn't expect much from a Rookie QB. but when he's under Center we are playing 9 on 11 because our wide outs aren't getting looks.

wonderbredd24
12-10-2010, 09:42 PM
I haven't been on DC for a couple of months.. Please tell me that the people in here don't have a boner for Colt McCoy like all of the other browns sites I frequent. He's playing well, and I shouldn't expect much from a Rookie QB. but when he's under Center we are playing 9 on 11 because our wide outs aren't getting looks.
I am excited about Colt McCoy, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. He needs to use his receivers. The only time he really seems to consistently do it is during the hurry up offense towards the end of the game. Beyond that, he's going to the tight ends and backs.

But his poise and his ability to make plays are definitely things to build upon.

MattyFos
12-11-2010, 10:45 AM
I am excited about Colt McCoy, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. He needs to use his receivers. The only time he really seems to consistently do it is during the hurry up offense towards the end of the game. Beyond that, he's going to the tight ends and backs.

But his poise and his ability to make plays are definitely things to build upon.


Yeah, you're probably right. We need a freak receiver.

MattyFos
12-11-2010, 10:48 AM
The receivers are stacked in the draft this year, right? I'm thinking we could get a solid receiver in the second round. I think we need to draft front seven in the first round.

wonderbredd24
12-11-2010, 11:34 AM
The receivers are stacked in the draft this year, right? I'm thinking we could get a solid receiver in the second round. I think we need to draft front seven in the first round.
I've been in the A.J. Green or defense in the 1st round camp for awhile, but if the Browns keep winning, they may end up with Julio Jones.

But the front seven needs a **** ton of help.

MattyFos
12-14-2010, 08:24 AM
I would like to add a ball hawking Safety. But, Abe Elam has been playing better this year than last season. So it's not a dire need.

I would like another CB, maybe in the 3-5 range.

Linebacker and Dline should be 1 and 2 on our board.

If we're sitting in the 10-15 range on draft day, move back a few spots and grab another second rounder. Then we could take Dline help, then with the two second round picks draft a WR (deep class) and a LB

We need a RT

I would like to get another RB. Hardesty will be back next year, but Mike Bell hasn't shown me anything. I'd like to get a speedster as the third Rb option. Maybe a return specialist because it seems like Cribbs is done with in the return game. (Think Laron Stephens- Howling/ Leon Washington) Get about 12 touches a game with returns, screens, and draws.


That is ALL I want for Christmas.

kalbears13
12-14-2010, 11:32 AM
I would like to add a ball hawking Safety. But, Abe Elam has been playing better this year than last season. So it's not a dire need.

I would like another CB, maybe in the 3-5 range.

Linebacker and Dline should be 1 and 2 on our board.

If we're sitting in the 10-15 range on draft day, move back a few spots and grab another second rounder. Then we could take Dline help, then with the two second round picks draft a WR (deep class) and a LB

We need a RT

I would like to get another RB. Hardesty will be back next year, but Mike Bell hasn't shown me anything. I'd like to get a speedster as the third Rb option. Maybe a return specialist because it seems like Cribbs is done with in the return game. (Think Laron Stephens- Howling/ Leon Washington) Get about 12 touches a game with returns, screens, and draws.


That is ALL I want for Christmas.

All I want for Christmas is one RT (middle rounds), a #1 WR (hopefully in the 2nd round), 6 of the defensive front 7 and a partridge in a pear tree.

Too bad Christmas is going to come 5 months late...

Good News Everyone: Colt McCoy is optimistic about being ready for the Bengals game and it sounds like he'll get the nod if he is ready.

MattyFos
12-14-2010, 06:37 PM
Lol, 6 of the front 7... Awesome. I agree

MattyFos
12-15-2010, 01:30 PM
http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=37958

MattyFos
12-16-2010, 09:30 AM
What if the Browns drafted another corner early in the draft. We need help across the board in 6 of our front 7. We'd need 5 of the front 7 is they would play Rogers at DE. But if we can get another stud corner like Peterson or Amukamara we could play man on the outside. Allowing TJ Ward to run free and freeing our LB up for more blitzes to hurry the QB. We won't get the pressure on the QB from a 34 defense without bringing Linebackers. But with another top of the line corner our "help D" (Linebackers and safeties) wouldn't be needed as much in coverage. Just an idea I'm throwing out there.

wonderbredd24
12-16-2010, 10:22 AM
What if the Browns drafted another corner early in the draft. We need help across the board in 6 of our front 7. We'd need 5 of the front 7 is they would play Rogers at DE. But if we can get another stud corner like Peterson or Amukamara we could play man on the outside. Allowing TJ Ward to run free and freeing our LB up for more blitzes to hurry the QB. We won't get the pressure on the QB from a 34 defense without bringing Linebackers. But with another top of the line corner our "help D" (Linebackers and safeties) wouldn't be needed as much in coverage. Just an idea I'm throwing out there.
Personally, I think giving up on Eric Wright would be a mistake. He has not had a good season, but he's talented, young, and probably won't cost too much. I have little doubt that if the front seven is better, Haden and Wright will both benefit. That has to be the way to go

Better run defense leads to more obvious passing situations makes coverage easier and in turn makes the improved front seven have more of a downhill effort on pressuring the quarterback

kalbears13
12-16-2010, 12:14 PM
I think that that a late round CB would be better value since there really is zero depth at that position.

Colt McCoy is announced the starter for the rest of the year.

wonderbredd24
12-16-2010, 12:17 PM
I think that that a late round CB would be better value since there really is zero depth at that position.

Colt McCoy is announced the starter for the rest of the year.
They don't have zero depth at corner. Joe Haden, Eric Wright, and Sheldon Brown is not a bad situation. I think the late round corner is very reasonable though or UDFAs. Coye Francies was brought back in replacing Eric King. Hopefully he can contribute.

I hope McCoy is healthy and I am excited to see him play in the weather. That is really the last big test I want to see him pass and it's a swing right through the division.

kalbears13
12-16-2010, 12:21 PM
They don't have zero depth at corner. Joe Haden, Eric Wright, and Sheldon Brown is not a bad situation. I think the late round corner is very reasonable though or UDFAs. Coye Francies was brought back in replacing Eric King. Hopefully he can contribute.

I hope McCoy is healthy and I am excited to see him play in the weather. That is really the last big test I want to see him pass and it's a swing right through the division.

While those are 3 good players, there is no one on the roster behind them besides Mike Adams if someone goes down during a game. Will they be able to play a Nickel D? That might be their strategy though and just bring in guys when guys do get hurt...

wonderbredd24
12-16-2010, 12:23 PM
While those are 3 good players, there is no one on the roster behind them besides Mike Adams if someone goes down during a game. Will they be able to play a Nickel D? That might be their strategy though and just bring in guys when guys do get hurt...
Consider their depth at any other position on this team and it looks pretty good.

kalbears13
12-16-2010, 12:28 PM
Consider their depth at any other position on this team and it looks pretty good.

I consider it really top heavy. Our starters and backups are really good but we LITERALLY have no one behind them. Maybe that's a good thing though that they have enough faith in them to get it done. If you look at the LB'ers there is a lot of depth but then there are really no studs.

wonderbredd24
12-16-2010, 12:33 PM
I consider it really top heavy. Our starters and backups are really good but we LITERALLY have no one behind them. Maybe that's a good thing though that they have enough faith in them to get it done. If you look at the LB'ers there is a lot of depth but then there are really no studs.
I think the LBs have depth and no real starters. At best, they have some guys who can service as starters with impact players next to them such as Roth. Benard is nice depth.

You aren't wrong about the corner position though... but if we had a legit front seven save Rubin, it would be substantially easier to protect them.

And we have literally run out of DLinemen at times resulting in the UFO stuff.

kalbears13
12-16-2010, 12:36 PM
Yeah, it sucks having to bring the house just to get a pass rush, leaving the CB's on islands. It would be nice to be able to get solid pressure with 3 or 4.

wonderbredd24
12-16-2010, 12:38 PM
Yeah, it sucks having to bring the house just to get a pass rush, leaving the CB's on islands. It would be nice to be able to get solid pressure with 3 or 4.
I don't mind leaving them on an island as long as they aren't there forever. It would be nice to be able to get pressure with less guys as well though. Getting pressure, period, would be nice

MattyFos
12-16-2010, 02:22 PM
I was just thinking locking up the corner position for maybe 10-12 years would allow more freedom out of our weak front 7. It would be easier to get another impact corner than it would be to revamp the entire front 7 in one draft. More of an instant impact.

kalbears13
12-16-2010, 02:28 PM
I was just thinking locking up the corner position for maybe 10-12 years would allow more freedom out of our weak front 7. It would be easier to get another impact corner than it would be to revamp the entire front 7 in one draft. More of an instant impact.

I would rather take my chances with wright and brown than wait even longer for a front 7.

MattyFos
12-16-2010, 06:58 PM
I would rather take my chances with wright and brown than wait even longer for a front 7.

Just for clarity, Wright would still be around in my scenario. But I was just throwing out an idea that popped in my head earlier.

MattyFos
12-16-2010, 07:01 PM
Did you guys/gals read that link I posted the other day. I guess a radio station in Cleveland was reporting rumors about Mangini not coming back because Holmgren can't find an offensive coordinator who is willing to work with him.

wonderbredd24
12-16-2010, 07:07 PM
If the CBA isn't done, a new coach cannot do **** with the team. They can't install their offense, defense, whatever. And they will not be able to do this until the CBA is done and there would likely be a very abridged camp and preseason if any, so if the lockout is of almost any length, teams hiring new coaches will be at a significant competitive disadvantage.

Is Holmgren really so stupid as to put his hand picked coach or himself in such a situation where with a less talented team, they are also trying to hit the ground running with virtually no preperation in a division with Pittsburgh and Baltimore? Holmgren also cannot afford to have his guy come out as a dud, because the fans will turn on him in a heart beat after watching Mangini's team compete so hard every week of the year, who they seem to support.

Look at the rest of the NFL. Dallas, Minnesota, and Denver fired their coaches during the season. Two of those teams might have their head coaches already in place and right now is basically working as their preseason/camp/installation for next year, so when the CBA is ironed out, they have a shot to hit the ground running.

This could also result in a very low number of job openings. Carolina will probably still be open as John Fox's contract runs out, but I think Singletary's job could be saved as a result. This might also explain Gruden's kid commenting on jobs for the 2012 season as I'm sure he and his agent saw this coming.

So Holmgren may be stuck with Mangini whether he wants to be or not.

MattyFos
12-16-2010, 07:26 PM
Good points, I haven't been a Mangini guy. I have actually been an anti-Mangini guy. But I think he has earned another year. All I want is for Brian D"A-hole" to be fired. That's all. Pretty simple. Can D"A-hole". I doubt the report is true. There has to be a Holmgren guy out there looking for a job. If not we could just move up an assistant to OC as a stopgap. But if it is true and we can't find a worthy OC because nobody wants to work with Mangini. What then? We can't keep Daboll. Is that a firable offense? Can we justify that to the players, media and fans? It seems like Mangini is getting a good following in NorthEast Ohio.

wonderbredd24
12-16-2010, 07:31 PM
Good points, I haven't been a Mangini guy. I have actually been an anti-Mangini guy. But I think he has earned another year. All I want is for Brian D"A-hole" to be fired. That's all. Pretty simple. Can D"A-hole". I doubt the report is true. There has to be a Holmgren guy out there looking for a job. If not we could just move up an assistant to OC as a stopgap. But if it is true and we can't find a worthy OC because nobody wants to work with Mangini. What then? We can't keep Daboll. Is that a firable offense? Can we justify that to the players, media and fans? It seems like Mangini is getting a good following in NorthEast Ohio.
I just don't buy that. When Mangini was hired, all we heard about was that players hated playing for Mangini, except they clearly don't. They seem to give everything they have for the guy, ripping off wins in the last 4 games last year and playing tough in every game this year, despite being at a disadvantage in talent almost every single game.

For the sake of argument though, let's say no one wants to work with Mangini. The fact remains there are only 32 offensive coordinator gigs in the NFL. Someone will want the job.

MattyFos
12-16-2010, 07:55 PM
Yeah, do we take his power grab into consideration from last season? Or do we just decide his fate off of this season. He messed up ALOT last season. Kokinis, His draft, the whole QB debacle... Should Holmgren be considering that stuff?
Another thing, who do we blame for our second half collapses? Mangini or Daboll. Of our 8 losses only the Falcons and Steelers were games we didn't stand a chance of winning. I don't know how many games we lost after leading during halftime... KC, Tampa, Jax, Buffalo(maybe, most likely).. Baltimore? I mean who do we put up on the stake for the masses.

keylime_5
12-16-2010, 08:16 PM
A lot of hate for Daboll, who is an inexperienced playcaller having only been one for less than two full seasons so far....but people have to keep in mind that we have nothing at WR and our QBs have been Quinn, Anderson, Delhomme, Wallace, and the rookie McCoy under Daboll's watch. When McCoy is in there I don't think the playcalling is that bad usually and the offense has been creative with trick plays that worked this year. I thought the playcalling against New Orleans and New England was spectacular. Now if they fired Daboll and brought in someone else I wouldn't argue at all, we definitely could do better, but I think the blame for our offensive inconsistencies go far beyond the offensive coordinator.

As for the rumor about not finding an OC who would work with Mangini: A)consider the source. Rizzo show, and Sabrina in particular is about as lousy of a source as you can find on the inside dealings of the Browns. B) all the talk about players hating to play for Mangini turned out to be bogus, most of the guys on this team speak as highly of Mangini as I have ever heard, and C)just think about that statement for a minute: why would an aspiring young coach turn down the oppurtunity to move up from say a QB coach or OL coach to become a playcaller and get a significant increase in pay? Not being able to hire a proven experienced offensive coordinator is one thing, but there are plenty of good positional coaches out there who would make great OCs and would love a job on any team.

keylime_5
12-16-2010, 08:19 PM
Yeah, do we take his power grab into consideration from last season? Or do we just decide his fate off of this season. He messed up ALOT last season. Kokinis, His draft, the whole QB debacle... Should Holmgren be considering that stuff?
Another thing, who do we blame for our second half collapses? Mangini or Daboll. Of our 8 losses only the Falcons and Steelers were games we didn't stand a chance of winning. I don't know how many games we lost after leading during halftime... KC, Tampa, Jax, Buffalo(maybe, most likely).. Baltimore? I mean who do we put up on the stake for the masses.

how about the fact that our team isn't nearly as talented as teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Atlanta. In crunch time it's Roethlisberger, Ryan, etc. against Delhomme or Wallace in those games. Who do we have on defense that would start for the Jets, Ravens, Steelers, etc.? Not many guys. We've led in all but 2 games this year in the 4th quarter, with more talent I think this team finds ways to turn those into wins.

kalbears13
12-16-2010, 08:53 PM
how about the fact that our team isn't nearly as talented as teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Atlanta. In crunch time it's Roethlisberger, Ryan, etc. against Delhomme or Wallace in those games. Who do we have on defense that would start for the Jets, Ravens, Steelers, etc.? Not many guys. We've led in all but 2 games this year in the 4th quarter, with more talent I think this team finds ways to turn those into wins.

I really want to know what the ypc are for the RB's are in the 4th quarter. I feel like it's 3 and out every possession.

wonderbredd24
12-16-2010, 09:03 PM
I am certainly willing to listen to the talent argument concerning Brian Daboll, but his playcalling is still just God awful if you ask me.

As for Mangini, if people want to judge him from year one where he had total control, they are more than welcome to do that, but what we learned is that he should not have total control and he does not. In year two as purely the coach, he seems to have been a good coach in my opinion and that is the job he is being asked to do, so in my mind, it makes more sense to judge him on that.

I'm a big fan of the Mangini that outcoached Sean Payton and Bill Belichick and the guy who has a bunch of shlubs playing competitive football consistently and am excited of the prospect of what he could do with a talent full of actual talent.

MattyFos
12-16-2010, 09:27 PM
Please don't give Daboll ANY credit for the Saints win. He was handed 14 points from Rob's defense. His offense gained a total of 12 first downs. One was the Reggie Hodges 68ish yard run. Another was the 40 yard pass interference call. So you take away the gimmick play and the pass interference you got 10 first downs..
He called a good game against the Pats, but there have been plenty of horribly called games. Here is Daboll's play sheet.
Run
Run
Pass to Hillis.

Brown Leader
01-11-2011, 04:22 PM
The Cleveland Browns have signed three more players to their offseason roster.

Cornerback Ramzee Robinson, defensive lineman Scott Paxson and quarterback Jarrett Brown were signed to reserve/future contracts on Friday.

About 9 months late on that. :D

If the Cleveland Browns intend to pursue Philadelphia Eagles offensive coordinator Marty Mornhinweg, they have yet to do so.

Is it possible Holmgren concludes that he can't find a coach better than himself?

NGSeiler
01-12-2011, 10:24 PM
League sources indicate the Browns will try to hammer out a contract with Rams OC Pat Shurmur in the next 48 hours, allowing them to introduce him as their new head coach on Friday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6015881

Da-Phins
01-17-2011, 01:15 PM
Well Dolphins hired your former turd OC, Daboll. What can you educated Browns fan who watch all the games tell me about this guy offense?

STsACE
01-17-2011, 08:04 PM
Well Dolphins hired your former turd OC, Daboll. What can you educated Browns fan who watch all the games tell me about this guy offense?

We didn't have alot of talent, so what we saw could have been misconceived.

*He's predictable when the game is on the line......run, run, 2 yard pass, punt
*On occassion it'll look like he has a tremedous offensive mind, next game you wanna hang him
*His offense here favored the TE and RBs


Phins got some better overall talent, so Daboll may impress this year, good luck with him.

diabsoule
02-09-2011, 05:19 PM
Browns just cut LB's Eric Barton and David Bowens, DL Kenyon Coleman and Shaun Rogers, TE Robert Royal and OL John St. Clair.

j05son
02-09-2011, 05:39 PM
Browns just cut LB's Eric Barton and David Bowens, DL Kenyon Coleman and Shaun Rogers, TE Robert Royal and OL John St. Clair.

I'm so so glad that piece of **** in shoulder pads St. Clair is out of here. Barton wasn't going to make the team anyways.

I really liked Bowens and Coleman but the switch to the 4-3 pretty much killed whatever value they had. I thought maybe Coleman could be a DT still but maybe the staff felt different or wanted to clear his 2.5m salary and 1m roster bonus.

Royal was a great blocking TE but a 3rd string TE making over 2m. I thought Rogers is the most surprising but then again maybe not. 6+m with salary and roster bonuses to a man who can't stay healthy and is never conditioned. I was just intrigued to see him line up next to Rubin in the middle.

The Browns should definitely go best player available this draft...
Fairley, Darues, Bowers, Quinn, Peterson or Green - One of them should fill a big need (Peterson maybe not a big need).

TheFinisher
02-09-2011, 07:06 PM
Can anyone give me an assessment about Rogers, I gotta believe he's someone Rob will try to bring to Dallas even if it's only for depth.

kalbears13
02-09-2011, 07:12 PM
Can anyone give me an assessment about Rogers, I gotta believe he's someone Rob will try to bring to Dallas even if it's only for depth.

I'm pretty sure a lot of teams are going to try and get rogers. I have a feeling it's going to be a contending team that will get him, since he's probably tired of being on below average teams.

TheFinisher
02-09-2011, 07:15 PM
I'm pretty sure a lot of teams are going to try and get rogers. I have a feeling it's going to be a contending team that will get him, since he's probably tired of being on below average teams.

Can he still play at an elite level?

kalbears13
02-09-2011, 07:24 PM
Can he still play at an elite level?

Probably not, but he's still a good player and does well in situational rolls. With the right motivation I think he can be very good.

OhioJB
02-12-2011, 08:40 AM
My guess is Rogers will play well for his next team for a year or two. When he went to Cleveland from Detroit he was motivated to play well. Lions fans I talked to wondered where that effort was when he was playing for them.

Once Mangini was hired Rogers pretty much did what he wanted it seemed like. Got out of playing pre-season for the most part (or all of it maybe), and I've heard comments that he practiced when he wanted to and Mangini was tired of it by 2010 season's end.

Rogers' conditioning was not as good in 2010 as it had been the previous couple of years, but that was at least partly because he broke his leg towards the end of the '09 season, and I had the impression he was behind schedule getting into shape for the season, and never caught up.

He'd be better as a 4-3 DT as he likes to penetrate rather than take up space as a NT in the 3-4.

He'll have time this off-season to get into better shape, and considering he'll be overpaid again by some team, he'll be motivated for a year or two. That's the most optimistic possibility in my opinion. It'll depend on what attitude he brings to the team. If he decides he wants to be motivated, he'll help a team. Even better if they play the 4-3 rather than the 3-4.

Tom Servo
02-12-2011, 09:39 AM
Really seems like we coulda gotten a mid round pick for Rogers. WTF?

OhioJB
02-12-2011, 10:10 AM
Would have been nice to get something for Rogers, but I'm pretty sure I heard or read trades are not allowed until a new CBA is agreed to. Even if that's not the case, his 5.5 mil salary, 500,000 roster bonus, and 100,000 bonus for something else, may have made it impossible to trade him. If trades are allowed my guess is Heckert and Holmgren worked the phones and couldn't get anything for him. Rogers didn't contribute enough last season to make him worth that type of money to another team.

In a way I'm sorry to see him go, because Rubin and Rogers as DT's in the 4-3 would have worked out well.

Brown Leader
02-12-2011, 10:19 AM
I'm sad every time I watch the Jets play and see S.Ellis beasting. Rogers has just as much talent, if not more, but is all but done in the league as a difference maker-whether it's injuries, conditioning or whatever.

Mr. Goosemahn
02-12-2011, 10:23 PM
Hey guys, quick question here, what do you guys think of Eric Wright? I know he had an atrocious season, but wasn't he a good CB before? What happened?

kalbears13
02-13-2011, 01:26 AM
Hey guys, quick question here, what do you guys think of Eric Wright? I know he had an atrocious season, but wasn't he a good CB before? What happened?

GOOSEMAHN!!! GTFO YOU LOST THE SUPERBOWL!!! LOL!!!

Just Kidding. I like you. Even though you like the Steelers.

But to answer your question, I have no idea what happened to Eric Wright. He showed potential in '08 and '09 and when handed the starting job this year, he looked completely lost. He has the talent, that's for sure, but maybe there was something wrong with him mentally and maybe a change of scenery will be good for him. If anything, I would guess that it was a lack of confidence after he was destroyed by Anquan Boldin.

OhioJB
02-13-2011, 06:00 AM
Eric Wright totally lost his confidence, plays soft coverage (doesn't press the WR off the line), and seems to hate contact. While Wright was getting torched by Boldin on one of the TD's, he was chasing Boldin down the middle of the field holding out both arms in desperation trying to slow him down. I don't think he even touched Boldin, and that's when I gave him the nickname 'Tickles', because it looked a bit like he was trying to tickle Boldin.

The only thing I can say in his defense is Rob Ryan's defensive scheme left CB's on an island too often, with no safety help. His first couple of years in Cleveland he played better, but never played tight coverage. He's no Joe Haden in coverage, and will never be a great tackler, but in a more conventional system he might play decently for a team. It's very unlikely to be in Cleveland. Last season I think he was just so afraid of giving up the big play when he didn't have a safety over the top, that his confidence was broken after getting torched.

Hopefully for Wright's sake he can recover from his very poor season.

j05son
02-26-2011, 09:08 AM
You can pencil in the starting LB corps as the following:

WLB - Jackson
MLB - Gocong
SLB - Fujita.

Heckert hopes to keep Jackson, who’s expected to be a restricted free agent, depending on the collective bargaining agreement. Heckert said linebacker D’Qwell Jackson, who’s missed most of the last two seasons with a pair of torn pectoral muscles, is better-suited for the 4-3. Heckert sounded as if he’d tender Jackson, as well as other restricted free agents, in an effort to retain them.

Fujita can fit any system and he's predominately been a SLB in a 4-3. They liked Gocong's play in the middle last year and think he could play any of the LB spots. Gocong was an OLB in Philly's 4-3 scheme. Tom thinks the LB corps is good and said he viewing the DL the most and says we need younger players on the DL. Says Rubin will be a good fit in a 4-3.

Staying on defense, 4-3 front has officially been confirmed (although everyone already knew). Haden is pleased we retained Jerome Henderson as DB coach and said that he, T.J. and Sheldon all had a great relationship with him. Heckert said Sheldon will probably end his career as a safety but that isn't anytime soon. Haden has been in talks with the staff and is trying to learn as much of the playbook as he can before a lockout will prevent him from doing so.

Heckert said he would have no problem drafting a cornerback at No. 6, likely LSU’s Patrick Peterson, even though he took Joe Haden at No. 7 last year. Heckert said a team can’t have enough good cornerbacks.

Offensively, Colt will be the man going into next season. They want to keep Jake along as a mentor to Colt. The staff would like to retain Wallace as a backup but Wallace wants a shot to start in the NFL.

"Oh, yeah, we will draft a quarterback. You can almost count on it," Holmgren said. "I believe in the young guy we have," he said. "I'm pretty sure we'll take one later in the draft."

Heckert said he wouldn’t hesitate to draft a quarterback with the sixth pick in the draft - “two great quarterbacks are not a bad thing” - but probably won’t given the other quality players available at the top of the draft. The Browns believe they saw enough in McCoy’s eight starts as a rookie to move forward with him as the starter.

Hardesty and Hillis should be sharing the workload which should help our running game a lot. Hillis really slowed down at the end of last year and with a two back system of similar players should keep both fresh. WCO will require the backs to catch a lot of passes and Hardesty wasn't asked to do that while at Tennessee the staff feels like he wont have any problems.

Shurmur stated that Watson is the perfect TE for his offense.

Tom hopes to sign a long term (multi-year) deal with Dawson.

Brown Leader
07-30-2011, 10:33 AM
Ffffffffffffffffffffff....*blowing the dust off this board.*

Random thoughts heading into camp:

Eric Wright made the right choice. It was possible that the new defense might suit him better but his best bet is to have a comeback season in DEt, then try to cash in.

Mitchell was a necessary resign. Who knows where he's at now but I thought he looked damn good last pre season in Minnesota. Cullen Jenkins is still out there. This guy looked like he was on the verge of a huge breakout when he earned a start in the Packers 43 at DE but got injured. He was still a difference maker in their 34 but I'd like to see if he still has big time ability at DE in an even front.

Taylor's hold up is undoubtedly concerning health issues -feet and weight-I'm guessing the club is trying to protect itself to a degree.

I've liked Usama Young since he was a prospect-I think he'll do fine as a fill in starter. A little surprised I haven't heard anything concerning Donte Whitner though.

Carlos Rogers would be a good signing. He's incredibly inconsistent but is also one of the most intimidating hitters in the league from the CB position.

I'll be shocked if Little does not clearly establish himself as the best WR by the start of the season.

Signing of Jarrett Brown went virtually unnoticed but I was pushing for this guy to be drafted instead of Colt. Really interested to see how he performs this camp. Signing Terrell Pryor would be intriguing but I think this guy needs to get out of the state of Ohio. From everything I've read and seen, none of Colt's teammates are ready to go out on a limb and declare that Colt will be a good starting QB for this team. I think that's really the whole organization's stance on him.

kalbears13
07-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Signing of Jarrett Brown went virtually unnoticed but I was pushing for this guy to be drafted instead of Colt. Really interested to see how he performs this camp. Signing Terrell Pryor would be intriguing but I think this guy needs to get out of the state of Ohio. From everything I've read and seen, none of Colt's teammates are ready to go out on a limb and declare that Colt will be a good starting QB for this team. I think that's really the whole organization's stance on him.



"I think he's himself now," Moore said. "I think Colt is a natural-born leader. When he first got here, in hindsight I realized he was definitely uncomfortable not being the leader and not being able to voice how he feels about things and push guys in a certain direction.
"Now you can tell it's not forced. He organized our offseason workouts. He basically ran our workouts. That's what you want your quarterback to do. I think he's ready go."

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/07/cleveland_browns_tight_end_eva.html

BuckeyeDan17
07-31-2011, 08:19 PM
Doesn't matter, his play will do the talking this season and the Colt debate will end, assuming he even makes it a full season. Go ahead and call me pessimistic, I really don't think he's going to cut it in the AFC north.

Brown Leader
07-31-2011, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Evan Moore
"I think he's himself now," Moore said. "I think Colt is a natural-born leader. When he first got here, in hindsight I realized he was definitely uncomfortable not being the leader and not being able to voice how he feels about things and push guys in a certain direction.
"Now you can tell it's not forced. He organized our offseason workouts. He basically ran our workouts. That's what you want your quarterback to do. I think he's ready go."

I don't mean to sound like a pessimist either but that's far from endorsing him as a solid starting QB.

j05son
08-05-2011, 03:29 AM
Starting lines so far in camp:

LT: Thomas
LG: Steinbach
C: Mack
RG: Lauvao
RT: Pashos

LDE: Mitchell
UT: Taylor
NT: Rubin
RDE: Shread

keylime_5
08-05-2011, 01:01 PM
I like what Heckert has done with the team so far. Last year the rebuilding method wasn't so clear since we kept Mangini and Mangini kept all his veteran players and his system. We were one of the oldest rosters in the league last year and were supposed to be rebuilding. This year we get rid of these veteran players:

Jake Delhomme, Lawrence Vickers, Robert Royal, John St.Clair, Kenyon Coleman, Shaun Rogers, Robaire Smith, David Bowens, Eric Barton, Matt Roth, Abram Elam, Eric Wright, and Nick Sorenson.

Now some of those guys are still young and some of those guys are quite good, but their future didn't fit with the Browns' future. We are now a very young team that has been stripped bare and is being replenished with the bevvy of draft picks the team has had in the past 2 drafts. Next year we will have a ton of picks again including two 1st rounders and two 4th rounders as well I believe, not to mention a few compensatory picks that we are bound to add after losing a bunch of quality free agents this year (notably Roth, Elam, Wright, Vickers, and Smith). We are probably two drafts away from having a very good looking young roster and people will start realizing how much better it is to build through the draft in the mold of Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, and San Diego - 4 teams who are good year in and year out and are almost exclusively built with draft picks.

This is all of our young talent, and it will look a lot better after next April (probable long term solutions bolded):

QB-Colt McCoy
RB-Peyton Hillis, Montario Hardesty, Brandon Jackson
FB-Owen Marecic
WR-Greg Little, Mohamed Massaquoi, Brian Robiskie, Josh Cribbs, Carlton Michell
TE-Evan Moore, Jordan Cameron
LT-Joe Thomas
LG-Jason Pinkston
C-Alex Mack
RG-Shawn Lauvao, John Greco
RT-

LDE-Jayme Mitchell, Marcus Benard
LDT-Phil Taylor
RDT-Ahtyba Rubin
RDE-Jabaal Sheard
WLB-Kaluka Maiava
MLB-D'Qwell Jackson
SLB-
LCB-Joe Haden, Dimitri Patterson
RCB-Buster Skrine, Coye Francies
FS-Usama Young
SS-TJ Ward, Eric Hagg

j05son
08-06-2011, 03:52 AM
I remember reading somewhere that we ended up like 396 years younger with all the moves.

Brown Leader
08-07-2011, 01:03 PM
Well aren't you the optimist Keylime. But we're chalk fill of unproven players. On offense we have maby four proven guys-Thomas-Mack-Steinbach-Watson. Leaving out Hillis because, although he carried the team last season, he took a serious pounding and at this point it's just one good year. With his style it would be surprising if he can actually improve and continue to sustain all the punishment(plus Madden cover). And leaving out Cribbs because it's unclear what role he'll take in the new offense. A bit better on defense because of the LBs(although slow) and our two promising DBs but the fact that almost half the starting D will be rookies and first time starters is just scary.

Through first week of camp:

James Walker ESPN blog:

Taylor has been the most impressive of the group. He arrived in camp four days late because of a contract dispute. But Taylor made his presence felt later in the week with his size, strength and ability to get up field. He could be a force next to fellow defensive tackle Ahtyba Rubin.
Because veteran free agents were unable to practice until Thursday, rookie fifth-round pick Buster Skrine received a lot of reps as the nickel corner this week. Skrine displayed good speed and playmaking ability. He jumped a route in team drills Tuesday and got a pick-six off McCoy, his best play of the week.

Skrine is competitive and looks like a mini-Joe Haden. He probably will make the team as a late-round pick.
Backup offensive tackle Brandon Braxton is showing flashes. He has good size and gets good leverage and position in pass protection. Braxton is pushing veteran Tony Pashos, the projected starter, through the first week of camp.
Greg Little. His drops are a concern. He has good physical tools. But by my count, Little dropped at least five passes in practice this week. He had a reputation in college for drops. It's too early to say if it's lack of concentration or bad hands. Perhaps rust also is a factor. Little was suspended at the University of North Carolina all of last season.

However, he showed up in front of the fans at Sat practice and looked like a #1 WR. By accounts he's showed marked improvement in his first week, sooo..

The Browns are a slow football team. Cleveland has decent size but definitely not enough blazers and game-changing athletes. I thought the Browns would be more aggressive in free agency to close the talent gap with the Pittsburgh Steelers and Baltimore Ravens. But that wasn't the case. Keep an eye on team speed during the regular season. I think it will be an issue.
I thought they might bring in a blazer 3rd down RB to compensate for this instead of B.Jackson. I remember seeing something that they were all set in taking Vereen if he was there, instead of Little, anyone also hear that? The only thing to the speed issue is that's where Cribbs(faster than he's given credit for) or Demtrius Williams might find a role. And on defense, why Skrine might get on the field as the nickel.

keylime_5
08-08-2011, 10:20 PM
I never said we were good, just young :). I think we're gonna struggle a lot this year because of our lack of depth at every position on defense (especially in the front seven where you have the 7 starters and maybe 1 or 2 decent backups and then a bunch of street free agents after that). I'm very excited about the direction the management is taking though and that we are actually building through the draft like San Diego, Pittsburgh, Indy, Green Bay, etc. and not just saying we're gonna build through the draft and then go and sign a bunch of free agents like Savage and Mangini did. I think after the 2012 draft we'll look a whole lot better than we do right now. Lots of unproven talent there this year. Hopefully most of those draft picks pan out. It's looking good for Haden, Ward, and Lauvao so far. We'll find out if McCoy can be the franchise QB after this year. The key for Hardesty, Taylor, Little, and Sheard this year is to stay healthy, because the talent is there and those guys seem very coachable and like they'll pan out with experience and by staying on the field.



One thing I don't get about Little is how all the predraft reviews for him were guys raving about his great hands and how he had the best hands in the entire draft, yet he is the second coming of Quincy Morgan in camp so far. I know you can have great hands and drop a lot of passes still, Jerry Rice did as a rookie, it could be concentration not his hands.

Brown Leader
08-09-2011, 09:04 PM
I've read it's like he's looking to run and not focusing on the catch. Which, if true, makes me think he's pressing, and why not? Experts dubbing him with great hands, expected to be a beast of a yac guy, the team in need of a #1, a year layoff from playing. I'd expect if your going to be good, you practice like you play but at the same time, Little strikes me as a guy who feeds off emotion, and raises his play when the lights are on.

In other news...Redskins, Browns set to attend Pryors Pro Day. (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Redskins-Browns-set-to-attend-Pryors-Pro-Day.html)
Would it be a crushing blow to Colt's confidence if we acquired Pryor? On the surface, no. But privately...yes. Imo.

fear the elf
08-11-2011, 09:38 AM
I asked for some background on Usama Young in the Saints forum a few days ago and forgot to share it, here's what I got:

Very versatile player, can play both CB and S, energetic, smart, decent in coverage and run support, and has special teams potential. Still hasn't lived up to his potential.

Sounds pretty promising. I like what the FO is doing; bringing in young guys with potential, intelligence, and looking for a place to prove themselves.

keylime_5
08-11-2011, 02:34 PM
Yeah, guys like Young and Jayme Mitchell and even Brandon Jackson are young guys whose best football is still ahead of them. Mitchell and Young in particular could be longterm starters for this defense if they pan out. Mitchell has a really high upside.

Also, it sounds like Greg Little hasn't been dropping the ball the past two practices, which is a good sign. Evan Moore has been destroying coverage with his size/speed/height mismatches, can't wait to see him play. Hopefully he stays healthy all year, we'll really need him and Watson to step up.

keylime_5
08-12-2011, 03:41 PM
preseason game vs the packers on saturday night.

most interested in watching:

Greg Little
Carlton Mitchell
EVAN MOORE!
Jabaal Sheard
and Colt McCoy of course

of course everyone is interested in seeing all the rookies during the preseason, but I wanna see Little and Sheard the most b/c those two are supposed to make a bigger impact this year more than the others. Taylor being great would be a plus, but I'm not expecting him to be a huge dominating DT so early in his career.

intrigued to watch Jayme Mitchell too to see what all the fuss is about from our FO

fear the elf
08-13-2011, 11:07 AM
preseason game vs the packers on saturday night.

most interested in watching:

Greg Little
Carlton Mitchell
EVAN MOORE!
Jabaal Sheard
and Colt McCoy of course

of course everyone is interested in seeing all the rookies during the preseason, but I wanna see Little and Sheard the most b/c those two are supposed to make a bigger impact this year more than the others. Taylor being great would be a plus, but I'm not expecting him to be a huge dominating DT so early in his career.

intrigued to watch Jayme Mitchell too to see what all the fuss is about from our FO

I can't argue with any of those. I'm always so excited for preseason; maybe I'm just conditioned after so much losing. The offseason just gives me hope I guess. Anyway. My order of guys I want to watch:

1. Colt (of course; he's the most important guy out there)
2. Jayme Mitchell
3. Hardesty (not sure if he's playing though)
4. Evan Moore
Tie - 5. Usama Young
Tie - 5. Sheard

I just don't know what I'm going to do after this week. I don't get to see any games living down in FL. At least this one is on NFLN.

Iamcanadian
08-13-2011, 09:22 PM
I like what Heckert has done with the team so far. Last year the rebuilding method wasn't so clear since we kept Mangini and Mangini kept all his veteran players and his system. We were one of the oldest rosters in the league last year and were supposed to be rebuilding. This year we get rid of these veteran players:

Jake Delhomme, Lawrence Vickers, Robert Royal, John St.Clair, Kenyon Coleman, Shaun Rogers, Robaire Smith, David Bowens, Eric Barton, Matt Roth, Abram Elam, Eric Wright, and Nick Sorenson.

Now some of those guys are still young and some of those guys are quite good, but their future didn't fit with the Browns' future. We are now a very young team that has been stripped bare and is being replenished with the bevvy of draft picks the team has had in the past 2 drafts. Next year we will have a ton of picks again including two 1st rounders and two 4th rounders as well I believe, not to mention a few compensatory picks that we are bound to add after losing a bunch of quality free agents this year (notably Roth, Elam, Wright, Vickers, and Smith). We are probably two drafts away from having a very good looking young roster and people will start realizing how much better it is to build through the draft in the mold of Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, and San Diego - 4 teams who are good year in and year out and are almost exclusively built with draft picks.

This is all of our young talent, and it will look a lot better after next April (probable long term solutions bolded):

QB-Colt McCoy
RB-Peyton Hillis, Montario Hardesty, Brandon Jackson
FB-Owen Marecic
WR-Greg Little, Mohamed Massaquoi, Brian Robiskie, Josh Cribbs, Carlton Michell
TE-Evan Moore, Jordan Cameron
LT-Joe Thomas
LG-Jason Pinkston
C-Alex Mack
RG-Shawn Lauvao, John Greco
RT-

LDE-Jayme Mitchell, Marcus Benard
LDT-Phil Taylor
RDT-Ahtyba Rubin
RDE-Jabaal Sheard
WLB-Kaluka Maiava
MLB-D'Qwell Jackson
SLB-
LCB-Joe Haden, Dimitri Patterson
RCB-Buster Skrine, Coye Francies
FS-Usama Young
SS-TJ Ward, Eric Hagg

It will all be irrelevant if McCoy doesn't take the next step toward being a solid NFL starter. Add in the lack of real impact players on defense and a very average receiving corp and it could be years before we see any positive results especially if we have to start over at QB.
Considering we have 2 very positive franchises in our Division in Pittsburgh and Baltimore, I shudder to think how long it will take to get competitive. Both of them are very solid at QB while it is still a big ??? mark for us.

fear the elf
08-13-2011, 09:46 PM
Of all the days to be negative, you pick this one? On the first day of Browns football after a lock out, after McCoy played well against a good defense, and the Browns won the game (albeit a preseason game).

Let me enjoy this. Damn dude.

keylime_5
08-13-2011, 10:12 PM
Yes, if McCoy isn't the answer then of course it will take a little longer. On the flipside, if he has a good year this year and proves that he is the franchise QB, then we aren't as far off from being a contender as we thought. Once you have a franchise QB, the battle is half won.

We are headed in the right direction regardless. We are building the team the correct way and we'll be good eventually. And I disagree about impact players. Haden and Ward are impact players. Taylor and Sheard have potential to be impact players. The FO loves Mitchell, he could be an impact player if he turns into a good pass rusher. Same with Benard. All these guys are very young. We are in the process of laying a foundation of good young cornerstones on defense, if we keep doing that then impact playmakers will emerge.

Enjoy the positives we saw today after Colt's great outing, dont' worry about all that other stuff.

SolidGold
08-13-2011, 11:07 PM
I think the Browns will be pretty solid. The 3-4 to 4-3 transition will take a little time but they seemed to believe getting these parts in the draft were a top priority this year. I think they have done a good job though with the roster. Next year they should have the "luxury" of drafting an impact WR to help Colt out after not getting Jones this year.

keylime_5
08-15-2011, 05:08 PM
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/08/cleveland_browns_quarterback_c_15.html

Article about McCoy working out with Brett Favre in Mississippi this summer to learn the west coast offense. The only thing that possibly can keep this kid from succeeding in the NFL as a starting QB is his physical tools and nothing else IMO.

Brown Leader
08-16-2011, 01:31 PM
I had read that he was putting on weight for this season but Colt looked noticeably bigger Sat night. Trying to hold off praise for what I thought was an impressive debut by Shurmur and the squad until they play again but I thought the play-calling and execution was solid. Also thought the new defense was solid. They were physical and made few mistakes. But we'll see if it's a trend or not.

But, I did find it interesting that Sam Bradford didn't look that great in his debut under McDaniels. I remember he was not pleased when hearing that Shurmur was leaving. I'm also really liking Shurmur's personality-it's probably just a byproduct of having to listen to Romeo and Mangini all these years.

Norwood was a pleasant surprise. Skrine surprised me but reports said he had moments in camp.

Brown Leader
08-16-2011, 01:51 PM
click here (http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/08/16/a-thought-about-the-cleveland-browns-my-2011-sleeper-team/) for optimism. I'll hold off until I see at least one or two more pre-season games.

fear the elf
08-18-2011, 08:11 AM
Gentlemen, I happened across this season preview this morning. Since I now live in Florida, I wasn't able to see many of last years games, so I was hoping you guys could fill me in on how accurate of picture this is...

Given that McCoy is small and fragile, the offensive line has to play better than it did last year. Left guard Eric Steinbach, once a Pro Bowl talent, has been awful the past couple of seasons. At 31, his career could be pretty much over. Pork Chop Womack and John St. Clair, respectively the starting right guard and right tackle in 2010, are both gone. Second-year Shawn Lauvao embarrassed himself in his one career start, but is currently penciled into the right guard slot. The right tackle position is up for grabs, but it appears as though the dreadful Tony Pashos is the favorite.

There are just two lone bright spots up front - left tackle Joe Thomas and center Alex Mack - so McCoy will be fortunate to play all 16 games this year.

1. I was under the impression that Steinbach was still a pretty good guard.

2. I know Pashos has been injured the past couple of years, but is he really dreadful?

I also take issue with calling out Lauvao and McCoy like that seeing as they were both rookies last year. I don't generally expect 3rd round rookies to set the world on fire.

I have a lot of issues with the write up, but will not freak out until Browns fans more in the know than I give their perspective.

http://www.walterfootball.com/offseason2011cle.php

keylime_5
08-18-2011, 01:45 PM
1-Steinbach was good last year after being injured and playing poorly in 2009 until December of that season where we won 4 in a row.

2-Pashos has been hurt so much that he's missed a lot of games. Great run blocker, we'll see how he does against pass rushers this year.

3-Lauvao had a great training camp last year but got hurt and when he did finally see game action, he looked bad, but HE WAS HURT! He has reportedly looked really good this year and quickly emerged as the starting right guard and looks really quick and strong out there so far in one preseason game (he was a beast against the Packers in those 3 series he did see). If Pashos goes down, Lauvao is our RT, that's how quick his feet are for a guard.

Our offensive line should be very very good this year unless we get bit by the injury bug. Thomas/Steinbach/Mack will be one of the best left sides in football this year again just watch. Places like walterfootball and rotoworld which is ran by fans who just write based on rumors and beat writers are usually very polar about players being great or awful.

Brown Leader
08-19-2011, 12:53 AM
Gentlemen, I happened across this season preview this morning. Since I now live in Florida, I wasn't able to see many of last years games, so I was hoping you guys could fill me in on how accurate of picture this is...



1. I was under the impression that Steinbach was still a pretty good guard.

2. I know Pashos has been injured the past couple of years, but is he really dreadful?

I also take issue with calling out Lauvao and McCoy like that seeing as they were both rookies last year. I don't generally expect 3rd round rookies to set the world on fire.

I have a lot of issues with the write up, but will not freak out until Browns fans more in the know than I give their perspective.

http://www.walterfootball.com/offseason2011cle.php

Well, imho I've been concerned about Steinbach for a couple seasons now because at times he's incredibly weak upfront-stronger tackles can just easily bulldoze him and throw him aside. But his strength is the finesse game-pulling/trapping and pass protection and he's very steady at that. I think he is a bit overrated but not awful. (pro bowl alternate right?)

Lauvao is in the same mold. Biggest problem with him is his strength. But because he's young there's room for improvement there. But I don't like letting Womack go.

It's been so long since Pashos was healthy, I really don't know about him. He's got to be about as good if not better than St.Claire though. The Jags were a ferocious running team back when he was a healthy starter but who knows if he's got anything left.

Like I posted earlier, Colt is noticeably bigger this season. I'd say if Bradford can take every snap in Shurmur's offense, there's a decent chance Colt can stay in there.

I think the defense is going to utilize some Jim Johnson type blitzing to compensate for the lack of pass rush. Even though Jauron's system is simplified I think we'll see a good amount of zone blitz.

I like Walt's write ups in general but he does tend to fall in love with or hate certain prospects and players.

Snide86
08-22-2011, 12:20 PM
Lauvao is in the same mold. Biggest problem with him is his strength. But because he's young there's room for improvement there. But I don't like letting Womack go.

Are you sure that you're thinking of the right guy? From most of the scouting reports I recall when Lauvao came out, it always said that one of his biggest strengths is well, his strength.

http://www.samoanews.com/viewstory.php?storyid=13131
Shawn placed second in the Hawaii Strong Man Competition when he was 16 (in the 16 to 18-year-old age bracket). He won the 2005 Hawaii Strongest Teen competition in April, listed as one of his most exciting sports experiences. He bench presses 420 pounds, squats 500 and power cleans 300, he was lettered five times in football and once in Track & Field

At the combine:
Lauvao was a top performer at the combine in the bench press with posting 33 reps, the three-cone drill with a 7.56-second time and in the 20-yard shuttle with a 4.51 second time.

Granted, gym strength doesn't always translate to strength on the field, but it can't hurt. Just something to think about, and perhaps feel a bit better about.

Brown Leader
08-22-2011, 02:13 PM
Are you sure that you're thinking of the right guy? From most of the scouting reports I recall when Lauvao came out, it always said that one of his biggest strengths is well, his strength.

http://www.samoanews.com/viewstory.php?storyid=13131


At the combine:


Granted, gym strength doesn't always translate to strength on the field, but it can't hurt. Just something to think about, and perhaps feel a bit better about.

Mmm I wasn't aware of his numbers, good post. I'm just basing it on what he's looked like so far. He seems to anchor well enough but doesn't get a great push. He's more athletic than the average guard but he's not winning the physical battles consistently. But if he's this strong I guess it's basically about technique and experience.

keylime_5
08-22-2011, 02:38 PM
I see where you're coming from regarding Lauvao. He has good strength and quickness, though he's not relatively huge for a guard (6'2" or 6'3" and 310-315) and he is more of a finesse guy than a nasty mauler considering how strong and stout he is. He was a left tackle at Arizona State. Interesting stat is that four of our starting offensive linemen were left tackles in college (Thomas at Wisconsin, Pashos at Illinois, Steinbach at Iowa, and Lauvao at ASU), with Mack being the only one who wasn't, a center at Cal. Steinbach played guard too in college mostly though with Robert Gallery as the LT. You'd figure our pass blocking this year should be decent eh?

kalbears13
08-22-2011, 11:31 PM
Joe Thomas signed a 7 year extension. God I love this man.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/08/cleveland_browns_pro_bowl_left.html

Brown Leader
08-23-2011, 02:23 PM
Thoughts on Evan Moore's concussions?

It's a big issue for him because he tends to run completely upright. He's been cracked more than twice because of this. What's more troubling is the concussion last Friday was a routine hit-nothing devastating.

Random

Maiava played really well against Det. It's early to tell but he looks like a future starter in this defense.

Phil Taylor seemed to shut it down after he made a nice play to cause the fumble. Much to passive for a guy with his size and ability-he really needs to find some dog in his game.

I think it was Haden that concussed Best early in that game-another guy with a serious issue concerning concussions.

Lauvao did indeed play really well against Suh.

Is Marecic looking like the best FB in his draft class? I'm not so sure but it's early.

Cribbs hammy is bad timing-I'd have liked to see him up against Philly's CBs. Is it possible Cribbs is our #1 WR going into the season? Actually I thought he was playing like a #1 early last season before injuries hit him. Sleeper guy to have a breakout season at WR-provided he's stays healthy.

Honestly loved Little's punt. He was like **** it, flag me. It's the kind of brashness that the offense needs imo. Shurmur as a first year guy of course has to scold him but he should have done it with a smile. /random

CC.SD
08-23-2011, 05:13 PM
Hey Brownies, I just want to put somewhere that I am totally rooting for the Browns this season. Love Haden, Ward and the young D, and would really like to see Colt McCoy succeed.

keylime_5
08-26-2011, 02:35 PM
best parts against Philly:

-Phil Taylor dominated Philly's rookie center and right guard (who was coincidentally his teammate at Baylor and taken just a few spots later in the first round). He flashed that Kris Jenkins/Shaun Rogers type potential as a huge nose tackle who can rush the QB.

-D'Qwell Jackson has been a monster in all three games. That hit on Vick was as clean as it gets, refs made a big mistake. I think D'Qwell has had maybe 3 or 4 TFLS in his entire career in a 3-4 defense, yet he seemed to have 3 or 4 at least just in this preseason alone in the new 4-3. He is a perfect downfield middle linebacker for this scheme, he is so fast to close on the ball carrier.

-Our D-Line created so much pressure that there were basically no throws by Vick to the outside receivers that were completed. Only Jason Avant caught one as a slot guy, everything else was to Celek or the runningbacks. Joe Haden is a beast too, that helps.

-Colt McCoy showed he could throw a great deep ball, though one bounced off Evan Moore's hands in stride that might've gone for 6, and another was caught by Brian Robiskie (Great game by him btw going against Nnamdi) but the pushoff was called (and that was a 50-50 call too, could've gone either way) negating our chance of a touchdown/redzone oppurtunity.

-Hillis is a bulldozer. Glad we only gave him 3 carries as we don't want to wear him down too much, we'll need him all year. He is such a great receiver too and can break tackles out in space like Brandon Jacobs only quicker.

penalties and allowing pressure from only 4 rushers was a problem last night and the reason why Colt didn't have as good of stats as the first two games, but McCoy actually played very well sans the one bad, off the back foot interception throw.

Cudders
08-26-2011, 04:06 PM
Phil Taylor dominated Philly's rookie center and right guard (who was coincidentally his teammate at Baylor and taken just a few spots later in the first round). He flashed that Kris Jenkins/Shaun Rogers type potential as a huge nose tackle who can rush the QB.

When the pick first happened, I was a little disappointed we had to surrender a third-rounder to move back up for him, but if he continues progressing, it will be a wise investment. Taylor definitely profiles as a corollary to the Planet Theory. There simply aren't many football players that share Taylor's blend of massive size, short-area explosiveness, and raw power. If he hones the finer points of trench play and keeps his weight from ballooning, he could establish himself as a linchpin for this defense for years to come. The titanic bulk of Ahtyba Rubin and Taylor when paired together presents significant problems to interior offensive lineman and frees up other pieces of our defense.

D'Qwell Jackson has been a monster in all three games. That hit on Vick was as clean as it gets, refs made a big mistake. I think D'Qwell has had maybe 3 or 4 TFLS in his entire career in a 3-4 defense, yet he seemed to have 3 or 4 at least just in this preseason alone in the new 4-3. He is a perfect downfield middle linebacker for this scheme, he is so fast to close on the ball carrier.

Jackson was certainly shafted when he got flagged for roughing the passer. Their helmets grazed after the hit, but their initial collision was clean, if I recall correctly. He drove through Vick with his shoulder, but I digress...

Jackson was one of the biggest beneficiaries from the transition to the 4-3. While he was still fairly effective and productive in the 3-4, it naturally mitigated his most impressive trait. Jackson's plus athleticism and solid instincts make him a prototypical run-and-hit linebacker. We've really seen that this preseason. He smoothly flows to the ball and closes on the carrier. Rubin and Taylor occupying blockers have made things easier for him. I actually think Jackson could play strongside and weakside very well in this scheme, too. That kind of positional versatility is a luxury for future drafts and free agency periods.

Our D-Line created so much pressure that there were basically no throws by Vick to the outside receivers that were completed. Only Jason Avant caught one as a slot guy, everything else was to Celek or the runningbacks. Joe Haden is a beast too, that helps.

I'm excited about our defensive line prospects, but I'm tempering it a little. It's worth noting that all of our preseason opponents are either breaking in new starters along their offensive lines or attempting to patch glaring holes with Band-Aids. These youngsters haven't been tested by anything other than offensive lines in flux.

Colt McCoy showed he could throw a great deep ball, though one bounced off Evan Moore's hands in stride that might've gone for 6, and another was caught by Brian Robiskie (Great game by him btw going against Nnamdi) but the pushoff was called (and that was a 50-50 call too, could've gone either way) negating our chance of a touchdown/redzone oppurtunity.

Colt had a live arm when he entered the NFL, but he appears to have worked at it and strengthened it during the lockout. It's not elite or great by any means, and it still concerns me in nasty weather, but it's a promising start. He's grown on me in all other facets of quarterbacking. His gamer attitude, his leadership, his initiative to learn, his tireless work ethic, his insatiable desire to be the best, etc.

Hillis is a bulldozer. Glad we only gave him 3 carries as we don't want to wear him down too much, we'll need him all year. He is such a great receiver too and can break tackles out in space like Brandon Jacobs only quicker.

Agreed. For being such a hard-nosed bruiser, his diverse skill set isn't duly appreciated.

penalties and allowing pressure from only 4 rushers was a problem last night and the reason why Colt didn't have as good of stats as the first two games, but McCoy actually played very well sans the one bad, off the back foot interception throw.

Colt was fantastic against the Packers. He was pretty good against the Lions. He struggled last night. Granted, it wasn't entirely his fault. But his interception was terrible and he missed some of his marks. That said, he was thrust into the perfect environment for the Eagles. Philadelphia jumped out to an early lead and capitalized on an advantageous situation. Between the score, our quest to implement new passing concepts, and easing our backs into the season, the Eagles knew we were going to throw. So they went to their nickel defense, pinned their ears back, and came after Colt. That nickel defense is absolutely disgusting. I didn't expect Colt to thrive in that situation. And, let's be honest, our receivers are grossly outmatched against that kind of talented subpackage.

Overall, I've been encouraged and pleased with the direction we've seen this preseason.

Brown Leader
08-27-2011, 08:51 AM
^As am I. I don't really have a problem with that dress rehearsal. If it was a reg season game we would have ran the ball more (Philly's weakness)and controlled the tempo better.

Someone lit a fire under Taylor. After last game and reading reports some were questioning his intensity, he brought it Thurs. Eagles line is young and in flux but our d line is going through a bigger transition transition and is younger than most of our opponents and it did what you would want it to do-control things upfront. A few mistakes here and there (Sheard) but it's to be expected.

Defense overall played well. Basically we were beaten by Vick by himself. Sheard also looks promising-he's playing pretty well for a rookie and looks like he's gotten more comfortable each game.

Colt is also growing on me. His deep balls have been pretty much on the money and if not for some cheapy calls and a fluke Moore drop, 1st team would have put points up. I also like that Little was featured to start things.

Hardesty seemed to look more comfortable after his first carry. It will be good to see he and Hillis together back there. I didn't think our protection was bad at all, considering what we were doing to their line.

Brown Leader
08-29-2011, 09:42 PM
President Mike Holmgren and coach Pat Shurmur consider Massaquoi their "No. 1 receiver," and apparently don't believe Little is ready for a starting job despite back-to-back solid preseason games. The first-team receiver corps in Cleveland has Massaquoi at Z, Brian Robiskie at X, and Jordan Norwood in the slot.

Smh. Cribbs, if healthy, is the better option there than Massaquoi. He's had a good camp at WR thus far and only recently been set back with a hamstring. Cribbs is more physical and explosive than Massa and imo is better at catching in a crowd. The only thing Massa does better is route running-important yes, but Cribbs just needs more live reps there to be better. And is just me, or does it seem like Little and Shurmur on not really hitting it off? 4th or 5th WR is kind of in the doghouse.

For his first NFL start, other than allowing Patterson to beat him one one play, Pinkston played pretty well at LG. Looks like a keeper-fortunate, because Steinbach might be finished-forever.

With B.Jackson down and out-he was one of the slowest backs I've seen this pre season-BEFORE the turf toe-we ought to sign Chester Taylor, who's about to be released.

Iamcanadian
08-31-2011, 11:42 AM
[QUOTE=keylime_5;2651129]
We are headed in the right direction regardless. We are building the team the correct way and we'll be good eventually. And I disagree about impact players. Haden and Ward are impact players. Taylor and Sheard have potential to be impact players. The FO loves Mitchell, he could be an impact player if he turns into a good pass rusher. Same with Benard. All these guys are very young. We are in the process of laying a foundation of good young cornerstones on defense, if we keep doing that then impact playmakers will emerge.

Here I disagree. As a fan of the Lions as well as Cleveland, I have watched as they rebuilt from a 0-16 season, the right way. Sure they drafted as bit higher than Cleveland but they drafted the correct way under their new management team and if Stafford stays healthy, they will move into the top teams class by 2012-2013 season. They added Stafford, Suh, and Johnson as true impact players with Fairley another possibility down the line.
They aren't talking about potential and who the FO likes, they can now point to the great players on their roster while we still wonder just how good the McCoy's, Taylor's, Sheard's, Bernard's and Mitchell will become. IMO, none of them are true impact players.
As long as Cleveland continues to trade out of the top 10 with the draft, they will have a long road to haul to reach contender status.

keylime_5
08-31-2011, 03:57 PM
You think we're not adding impact players in this rebuild? Colt McCoy, Peyton Hillis, Montario Hardesty, TJ Ward, Joe Haden, Evan Moore, Greg Little, Phil Taylor, Jabaal Sheard.....all of these guys have the potential to be impact playmakers for this team if they aren't already are. And what's more, you don't win championships by collecting talent on the outside in, you win championships by dominating the line of scrimmage - especially in the AFC North competing with Pittsburgh and Baltimore - and by adding Taylor and Sheard and Thomas and Mack instead of so called "impact" players all while acquiring extra quality draft picks to fill out the rest of the roster with we are well on our way to doing that. Teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore and New England have all reached contender status without picking in the top 10.

Detroit picks in the top 10 like every year. For every Matthew Stafford, Ndamukong Suh, and Calvin Johnson you have Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, Joey Harrington, Mike Williams, and Ernie Sims. They would've been better off trading out of their top 10 spot and acquiring core players instead of wasting picks on those "impact players." It's not like the Browns traded away sure things like Suh or Johnson either, they traded away the rights to Julio Jones and Mark Sanchez. I'll take Colt McCoy, Greg Little, Phil Taylor, Alex Mack, and all the extra picks we got in between gladly.

keylime_5
09-03-2011, 09:34 PM
Browns final 53 as of September 3rd, 2011:

QB-Colt McCoy, Seneca Wallace
RB-Peyton Hillis, Montario Hardesty, Armond Smith
FB-Owen Marecic
WR-Mohamed Massaquoi, Brian Robiskie, Greg Little, Joshua Cribbs, Jordan Norwood, Carlton Mitchell
TE-Benjamin Watson, Evan Moore, Jordan Cameron, Alex Smith
OL-Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Tony Pashos, Shawn Lauvao, Jason Pinkston, John Greco, Oniel Cousins, Steve Vallos, Pat Murray

DE-Jabaal Sheard, Jayme Mitchell, Marcus Benard, Derreck Robinson, Auston English
DT-Phil Taylor, Ahtyba Rubin, Brian Schaefering, Scott Paxson
LB-D'Qwell Jackson, Scott Fujita, Chris Gocong, Kaluka Maiava, Titus Brown, Benjamin Jacobs
CB-Joe Haden, Sheldon Brown, Buster Skrine, Dimitri Patterson, James Dockery
S-TJ Ward, Usama Young, Mike Adams, Ray Ventrone, Eric Hagg

K-Phil Dawson
P-Richmond McGee
LS-Ryan Pontbriand

Reggie Hodges, Eric Steinbach, and Brandon Jackson are on the IR.

I think we will sign some waiver wire guys. Paxson, Jacobs, Murray, and English's stay on the 53 man roster might be short-lived. I especially expect us to sign another OL, LB, and DT.

Iamcanadian
09-04-2011, 04:17 PM
You think we're not adding impact players in this rebuild? Colt McCoy, Peyton Hillis, Montario Hardesty, TJ Ward, Joe Haden, Evan Moore, Greg Little, Phil Taylor, Jabaal Sheard.....all of these guys have the potential to be impact playmakers for this team if they aren't already are.

Come back when they have proven something besides being starters for this team.

And what's more, you don't win championships by collecting talent on the outside in, you win championships by dominating the line of scrimmage - especially in the AFC North competing with Pittsburgh and Baltimore - and by adding Taylor and Sheard and Thomas and Mack instead of so called "impact" players all while acquiring extra quality draft picks to fill out the rest of the roster with we are well on our way to doing that. Teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore and New England have all reached contender status without picking in the top 10.

You win championships by finding 1!!!!, a true franchise QB. Pittsburgh, Baltimore and NE all have a franchise QB and until we have one, we aren't in the same league as these teams.
As for the LOS, Baltimore built its DL with high picks( Terrell Suggs and Ngata), NE's OL and DL is not a huge strength and Pittsburgh's OL needs help.

Detroit picks in the top 10 like every year. For every Matthew Stafford, Ndamukong Suh, and Calvin Johnson you have Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, Joey Harrington, Mike Williams, and Ernie Sims. They would've been better off trading out of their top 10 spot and acquiring core players instead of wasting picks on those "impact players." It's not like the Browns traded away sure things like Suh or Johnson either, they traded away the rights to Julio Jones and Mark Sanchez. I'll take Colt McCoy, Greg Little, Phil Taylor, Alex Mack, and all the extra picks we got in between gladly.

Detroit was blessed with the worst GM in NFL history for 7 seasons and to bring up his 1st round picks is a joke. Since Mayhew replaced him, and in 3 years, has the Lions poised to be one of the better teams in the NFL.
Where is Cleveland heading, can you really pretend to know because I don't? Sure, I would like to think all will turnout well for the Browns, but IMO, we have years to go before we see any positive results.

keylime_5
09-04-2011, 04:25 PM
well when i said we were building the team the right way, what I was referring to was the fact that Heckert stripped the roster bare of all the old veterans who aren't a part of the future and we are constructing the team with draft picks and young unproven guys like Peyton Hillis and Jayme Mitchell that we traded for. That's the proper way to build a team that desperately needs a makeover. If Colt is the real deal then we are certainly headed in the right direction. I love what they are doing on defense with Rubin and Taylor and Sheard up front and Jackson, Haden, and Ward being the back 7 playmakers. Keep drafting good young talent.

keylime_5
09-04-2011, 04:45 PM
...and if you don't like the Lions as an example just go look at all those top 10 picks the Bengals and Cardinals and Browns had in the past. If you hit with those top 10 picks and get lucky it's all well and good, but they don't help you fill out the depth when you have needs everywhere. You are more likely to add more impact players by having more than 2 picks in the first 2 rounds every year than by having a pick in the top of the 1st and 2nd round every year. Just ask New England how that's been working out.

j05son
09-05-2011, 04:32 PM
Just because you draft later in round 1 or pick a player outside of round 1 doesn't mean you won't get an elite player. I fully disagree with IAC, it's not where you draft someone but who you draft. This team has been bad since the return because of instability in the front office and the fact we were missing on draft picks.

Holmgren and Heckert are stabilizing the front office and they're hitting on their draft picks.

We have 4 starters from the '10 class in Haden, Ward, McCoy and Lauvao and we can have 2 more draftees contribute on offense with Hardesty and Mitchell.

Then the next very draft class we're going to have 4 new starters in Taylor, Shread, Marecic and Pinkston. Plus your going to see contributions from Little and Skirne while Cameron is a developmental player who is going to fill a niche like Evan Moore, and then you have Eric Hagg - Nebraska's defensive mvp.

Combine all of this with a young core of players like Thomas, Mack, Hillis, Massaquoi, Robiskie, Evan Moore, Ahtyba Rubin and Usama Young along with some vets in Cribbs, Jackson, Gocong, Fujita, Brown, Watson, etc and we are moving in the right direction if you see it or not.

Then we go into the 2012 draft with 2 firsts, a second, a third, 2 fourths, a fifth and either a six or a seventh (we lose one for jayme mitchell trade).

Cudders
09-06-2011, 03:14 PM
For the record, I agree with the common sentiment that Heckert and Holmgren are building the foundation of this roster in a smart manner. Under Mangini, we were the most unathletic team in the NFL and one of the most talent-starved in general. The current brain trust has changed that. We've added some much-needed athleticism on both sides of the ball and stockpiled picks to create overall team depth. I like the direction we're going. That said, I don't know if I would quantify some of these guys as "impact players" yet. They very well could develop into that in the future, but we just don't know. We've seen plenty of players impress early on in their career and then wash out shortly thereafter. We can't project each individual as best-case scenario. While it's theoretically possible, it's mathematically improbable that they all reach their ceilings.

As a person that also considers the Lions their second favorite team, I agree with IAC to a degree. Yes, Detroit's management has done a commendable job with their roster makeover. They have added cornerstones when they can, developed some talent in-house, and found a competent coach to oversee the effort. But -- and I want to stress this -- there is no universal blueprint for building a championship-caliber team. Sure, historically, there appears to be some overlapping components between them, but no surefire step-by-step approach that guarantees playoff berths and Lombardi trophies. With that in mind, let's look at what Detroit has done in the draft to dig themselves out of their self-inflicted hole since Martin Mayhew took over for Millen as general manager. (As an aside, Millen did hit on Calvin Johnson. Granted, it wasn't a hard pick to make, but he did leave the Lions with one elite building block. We got Joe Thomas the next pick. I'll take him as an impact player.)

1.) The Roy Williams Trade - Stockpiling picks. Trading a proven commodity for a first, third, and sixth-round pick. The idea behind it? The Lions desperately need talent everywhere and one pretty good receiver isn't going to do much for them. (Note: With those picks, Mayhew took Brandon Pettigrew, Derrick Williams, and Aaron Brown. One hit and two misses. Pettigrew has all the makings of a very good-to-great tight end. Williams was always a better athlete than football player. Since waived. Aaron Brown never showed much more than an emergency third-string tailback. Since waived.)

2.) Finding the Franchise Quarterback - Obviously, taking Matthew Stafford first overall in 2009 was a no-brainer. I know some preferred Mark Sanchez, but Stafford had the former crushed in terms of physical talent, experience, and upside. Grabbing that franchise quarterback is the biggest part of a rebuilding project and I have a feeling that is the source of your displeasure with the Browns. The bottom-line is that the Browns haven't had the opportunity to add someone like Stafford. Sure, we had our shot at Sanchez and Freeman in 2009, but let's be honest for a moment. Sanchez wasn't in the same tier with Stafford as a prospect and Freeman was a crap shoot. He looked the part of a franchise quarterback and flashed the potential, but he was perceived as a big-time project. Anything else is revisionist history. Instead, we added three Mangini stopgaps (admittedly lackluster compensation), an extra pick (good intentions meets bust), and Alex Mack, who has developed into one of the best centers in the NFL. I can't complain with that.

Onto the 2010 NFL Draft. Top three quarterbacks were Bradford, Tebow, and McCoy. Like Stafford, Bradford went number one overall. We never had a shot at him. Neither quarterback left was worth a top ten pick, so we went with Joe Haden, the best cornerback prospect on the board. In a league becoming more and more dominated by high-octane passing attacks, defending the pass has become critically important. When you consider the fact that he also supports the run, which is paramount for winning inside our division, he was the right choice.

Onto the 2011 NFL Draft. We had three shots at a quarterback this year. Locker, Gabbert, and Ponder. Out of the three, I wouldn't have hated Locker. But you also have to consider the external forces at work here. Locker had a disappointing senior season and was considered a project that had to become more comfortable in the pocket to succeed at the next level. Gabbert screamed bust to me. And Ponder doesn't have an enormously high upside either. Plus, McCoy showed some good things on tape in 2010. If the Browns weren't absolutely sold that Locker, Gabbert, or Ponder were franchise quarterback material, they made the right move by passing on all of them.

3.) Finding the Stud Pass Rusher - A stud pass rusher is one of the four most important positions in football. The Lions had the great fortune of being able to pick Ndamukong Suh in 2010. Much like Stafford, it wasn't a hard choice to make. And, much like Stafford, the Browns haven't been in the position to select a truly elite one. B.J. Raji has shown a little pass rushing push for the Packers, but we were running a two-gap 3-4 in 2009 and already had Shaun Rogers on our roster. Brian Orakpo would have been nice, but the Ghost of Vernon Gholston unfairly hurt his value and he was gone before we got another chance at him at seventeen. In 2010, there wasn't a pass rusher that carried a top ten value. I expect Jason Pierre-Paul to develop into a formidable pass rusher with the Giants, but he was a freak athlete without much polish and lacked a complete repertoire coming out. A talent-deprived team doesn't gamble on that at seven. In 2011, we had our shot at a top-tier rusher, but we dropped back, picked up additional picks, and still found a defensive linemen we're confident in with Phil Taylor. At that point, it becomes an issue of philosophy. Would you rather have, for example, just Nick Fairley or Julio Jones or would you rather have Phil Taylor, Greg Little, and an extra first-round pick next year? Personally, I'm choosing the latter in our situation.

The Lions have good picks and signings sprinkled throughout their past three drafts and free agent periods, but the coaching staff has meant a tremendous amount to the rebuild, too. Jim Schwartz and Martin Mayhew are on the same page. They share the same vision. That's important for any team. Like I said, I think Detroit has done a savvy job of restocking the cupboards. But every team can't follow the Detroit model exactly.

kalbears13
09-06-2011, 07:32 PM
As much as I have liked what the Lions have done, they still haven't produced a winning season. I know Stafford was hurt last year but I'll believe it when I see it.

keylime_5
09-11-2011, 05:35 PM
Browns get hosed apparently, what else is new?

Sept. 11, 2011 5:23 p.m. - by Marty Gitlin - Shurmur question rule interpretation
Coach Pat Shurmur on the quick-snap play that resulted in defensive confusion and the game-winning TD . "It's my understanding that they changed personnel lining up and there are rules that go along with that. When the offense changes personnel, it's my understanding the defense has time to do so." Browns RapidReports

Iamcanadian
09-12-2011, 10:16 AM
Browns get hosed apparently, what else is new?

Sept. 11, 2011 5:23 p.m. - by Marty Gitlin - Shurmur question rule interpretation
Coach Pat Shurmur on the quick-snap play that resulted in defensive confusion and the game-winning TD . "It's my understanding that they changed personnel lining up and there are rules that go along with that. When the offense changes personnel, it's my understanding the defense has time to do so." Browns RapidReports

What league is he playing in? Many teams are using the quick snap and no huddle today to prevent the defense from switching personnel.

Brown Leader
09-12-2011, 04:02 PM
Biggest beef with the coaching first week is the use of personal. Who is the team's best playmaker? Why does that guy only get about 3 touches within the offense, for the game? (Cribbs of course). Evan Moore had two huge drops, especially the probable TD catch but in his defense, he didn't even see the field until late in the 2nd quarter. Just speculating, but more playing time might get him more comfortable rather than standing on the sidelines for an hour , than thrown in to grab a TD.

Colt had some untimely rookie type moments. But he also seemed unwilling to throw into coverage down the field. Maby that's due to the WRs hopelessly covered but the good to elite QBs in the league make their WRs better. The coaching philosophy might be conservative rather than chance a turnover but instead of a check to Hillis on 3rd and long, which is really conceding a punt, how about check to Cribbs or Armond Smith?

The defense played fine other than the game deciding mistake ;) The offense sputtered and collapsed with Colt again looking pretty dreadful in the rain. Bengals on offense actually look like they could be really scary when a really good QB emerges.

keylime_5
09-12-2011, 04:35 PM
yeah, Bengals have potential on offense with their weapons, but who wouldn't be scary with a really good QB, right?

Offense is a work in progress. Looked outstanding at times but couldn't maintain drives for most of the 2nd half. With a very young QB, a rookie head coach, and very average weapons that is to be expected. Very young team who is gonna make mistakes and lose games like that one, but they should improve as the year goes on and hopefully win at least 6 games and stay healthy.

j05son
09-12-2011, 08:30 PM
Look at the good news; I don't think we can play any worse.

How different of a game would it be without 7 1st quarter penalties, without a punter shanking 3 out of his 8 punts (the 3 in question went 20,27,30 yards) and an experienced head coach calling time out before we get embarrassed on that quick snap (which the league reviewed and stated we had ample time for a substitution).

edit: rumors are we'll be waiving McGee and signing Brad Maynard.

Iamcanadian
09-15-2011, 10:22 AM
I'm looking at 4 wins with a slight chance to go as high as 6. If we cannot beat the Bengals with their QB position, how are we going to stack up against the better teams. UGH!!!
This isn't a team where in one draft you can fix all the mediocrity, we need to concentrate on deciding if McCoy can be a true franchise QB otherwise, we will be stuck in endless losing seasons with no real future and any talk about improving will be just so much hot air.
If McCoy is just serviceable, we will be stuck drafting in the middle of the pack every year with little hope of finding real impact players.
I'm afraid I'm looking again, at a very, very long decade where we won't be competitive.

keylime_5
09-15-2011, 12:50 PM
Well for once we agree about something. We do need to concentrate on deciding if McCoy is the guy, and I think this year will be all about McCoy proving if he is the franchise QB or not. At worst I think he's a servicable NFL QB and a very good backup who can at least start games and play well for us in the pinch, but if he can be one of the better QBs in the league and consistently play like he did in the 2nd quarter against Cincinnati then we'll be set and we'll probably win more than 5 or 6 games this year. I think most had the expectations of winning 7 or 8 games this year as being acceptable considering the state of this team. If McCoy doesn't prove to be more anything more than just servicable we won't win many games this year and we'll probably look to draft Luck, Landry Jones, or Matt Barkley next April.

j05son
09-15-2011, 07:30 PM
I will agree in part but I'm a glass half full man and I'm not going to panic about one game.

#1 vs Cincinnati: I view it less of a game won by the Bengals but a game lost by us. We basically spotted them 13 points with McCoy's shaking first quarter, 7 penalties, a botched punt and giving them terrific field position. We had terrible special teams apart from Cribbs' 51 yard return and our play calling on both sides were subject (that's when the defense did call a play and not huddling during an AJ Green walk-in TD). I thought our playmakers (Hillis, Cribbs and Moore) needed to be on the field more and needed to get more touches.

I fully expect that Maynard will fix our punting issues and special teams will become a strong point for us again. I am expecting us to play more disciplined as we're a young team still learning with a shortened preparation period (not an excuses as all teams had the same amount of time and there's teams younger than us). I'm expecting the play calling to strengthen as Shurman was able to get production from his playmakers in St. Louis and Jauron is a respected defensive mind in this league.

I'm worried about our run defense since Benson did put up 121 yards on almost 5 yards a carry. Cincinnati definitely abused Shread and seemed to run the majority of plays at our right side but at the same time it was our left side that allowed Benson to score. Secondly I'm worried about-

#2 Colt McCoy: Colt played half the game like a rookie and another half as Chad Pennington. Either way it's not good enough for us to say you're our guy. I do agree with IAC that this is the year that we determine if we stick with Colt. If Colt can't play better than a Chad Pennington clone, we need to package our firsts and whatever it takes to go and get a franchise QB.

#3 The Future: As for sucking for another decade, I find that hard to believe. The biggest problem Cleveland had was instability in the front office and missing draft picks. We have a very respected president and super bowl winner in Holmgren, a general manager who has had success in the same position for many years in Philadelphia and an owner who has an open checkbook and keeps his nose out of decisions (tell me you would rather have today's version of Jerry Jones, Al Davis or Dan Snyder).

Even if we stick with Colt and he only reaches the potential of a Chad Pennington, we can still do well, albeit not Super Bowl caliber. Now I would obviously prefer Cleveland to not stick with Colt if that's as high of a ceiling he can reach and go after a QB who can rival Rogers, Manning and Brady.

None-the-less we still have a solid, young core of players who can contribute for years down the line in;

Joe Thomas - 26
Alex Mack - 25
Evan Moore - 25
Peyton Hillis - 25
Josh Cribbs - 28
Joe Haden - 22
T.J. Ward - 22
Ahtyba Rubin - 25
Chris Gocong - 27
D'Qwell Jackson - 27

as well as some who have potential, like;

Phil Taylor - 23
Jaball Sheard - 22
Buster Skrine - 22
Usama Young - 26
Kaluka Maiava - 24
Titus Brown - 25
Owen Marecic - 22
Jason Pinkston - 24
Montario Hardesty - 24
Jordan Cameron - 24
and pretty much the rest of our WR
Massaquoi & Norwood - 24
Mitchell & Robiskie - 23
Greg Little - 22

I think our young nucleus is just as good if not better than the Lions who you (IAC) have stated are doing things the right way and you're confident that they are turning around their franchise. Plus we have 2 first rounders plus future picks and the rest of the '12 draft picks including an extra 4th to go and make a package to try and get Luck if need be. While we do have question marks regarding QB (as does Detroit with Staffard) our future is looking up - even if this season goes down.

Brown Leader
09-16-2011, 12:49 AM
Ahhh smh j05son.

#1 vs Cincinnati: I view it less of a game won by the Bengals but a game lost by us. We basically spotted them 13 points with McCoy's shaking first quarter, 7 penalties, a botched punt and giving them terrific field position. We had terrible special teams apart from Cribbs' 51 yard return and our play calling on both sides were subject (that's when the defense did call a play and not huddling during an AJ Green walk-in TD). I thought our playmakers (Hillis, Cribbs and Moore) needed to be on the field more and needed to get more touches.

Okay, agreed we looked like the better team but if not for the huge defensive gaff, I don't think the Bengals score more than 3pts from that point on.

I'm worried about our run defense since Benson did put up 121 yards on almost 5 yards a carry. Cincinnati definitely abused Shread and seemed to run the majority of plays at our right side but at the same time it was our left side that allowed Benson to score. Secondly I'm worried about-

Really? I thought Sheard showed up well and made some plays against the run, being disruptive. I think he looks better than Mitchell at this point. 121yd at 5per is completely misleading. Up until his late 39yd TD run, when the game was all but decided, we played their run game very well. The Bengals are built to run the ball this year and will demolish some teams on the ground.

#2 Colt McCoy: Colt played half the game like a rookie and another half as Chad Pennington. Either way it's not good enough for us to say you're our guy. I do agree with IAC that this is the year that we determine if we stick with Colt. If Colt can't play better than a Chad Pennington clone, we need to package our firsts and whatever it takes to go and get a franchise QB.

Clearly you are forgetting how great Pennington was throughout most of his career. Colt absolutely did not look like a bonafide NFL starter against Cincy. Unless he does sort of a 180 against Indy, I think our scouting department is going on alarm.

Hard to say but I think last year's team does not lose that game. Hopefully it's a step back, two step forward kind of thing.

What's bugging me is the WR grouping. Right now it's..

1. Momass
2. Robo
3. Little
4. Cribbs

When it ought to be..

1. Little
2. Cribbs
3. Momass
4. Robo

Massa is an ideal 3rd WR to me. He's decent all around but doesn't have anything special about his game. Actually I was surprised to read that Little saw the most snaps out of the WRs at Cincy. With Massa perhaps missing the next game with a hammy, it could be blessing in disguise if Little and Cribbs get the majority of the snaps. Robo apparently went back to being useless-he should see less snaps this week.

I like Shurmur but I'm not sure I like his even keel attitude about a game we should have won. I'd prefer a guy who shows disgust and declares that it's not acceptable. What's everyone think about his personality?

j05son
09-16-2011, 02:04 AM
Pennington debuted midseason for a good NY team (division winner the year before) in '02 and lead them to 7-2 and helped them into the playoffs and lost in the divisional round.

Before Pennington
2000 = 9-7 3rd in AFC East
2001 = 10-6 3rd in AFC East, lost wild card
New York Jets
2002 = 9-7 (Pennington 7-2) won AFC East, lost divisional round
2003 = 6-10 4th in AFC East
2004 = 10-6 2nd in AFC East, lost divisional round
2005 = 4-12 4th in AFC East
2006 = 10-6 2nd in AFC East, lost wild card
2007 = 4-12 3rd in AFC East

Miami Dolphins
2008 = 11-5 1st in AFC East, lost wild card
2009 = 7-9 3rd in AFC East (Pennington 3 starts - 3 games lost)
2010 = 7-9 3rd in AFC East (Pennington threw 2 passes)

Now, I never said Pennington was bad - I even said that we would win if Colt becomes a Pennington clone. I said that Chad isn't taking people to super bowls or taking a team to the top. I would rather take a shot on Luck being a guy that could possibly rival Manning/Brees/Brady/Rogers and can make us legitimate super bowl contenders than a good qb that can't string 2 good seasons together.

On the wide receivers - I will agree with you 100%. What is a WCO - short to intermediate routes that result in YAC (sparknotes version). Cribbs is arguably our best playmaker and we've seen what he can do with the ball and some space. Give him the ball! Put him in a position to get more touches. I think Cribbs can do well in this offense. Robiskie was only targeted 3 times against Cincy for 0 catches.

keylime_5
09-16-2011, 04:19 PM
yeah, the Bengals' rushing stats are very misleading. We bottled them up the whole game. After that fluke brainfart TD to Green we sold out to stop their run on 3rd down and blitzed TJ Ward, who missed and then Benson was off to the races. One big run and all of a sudden it's a bad game statistically for our run defense when it would have been a great game otherwise. Sheard played okay, would like to see more edge pressure from him but he's a rookie. Love his motor and energy out there, he looks like he'll get his eventually.

On Colt, we shouldn't judge him yet until he's played more games this year. Offense was in too many 2nd & longs and 3rd & longs to have success against Cincy. In the 2nd quarter he made some great plays, but his work was cut out for him the rest of the game. They seemed to have recognized that and if the run game improves on early downs, then we should see a much much better offense when it comes to sustaining drives and giving Colt more time and options in the passing game.

Brown Leader
09-20-2011, 04:22 PM
Cleveland is one defensive breakdown away from leading the division.
I like how that sounds.

The good:
Colt was a fine game manger against the Colts. Massa had the best catch of his career. Cribbs started. (if we feed him the ball he can take over games-that should be obvious by now.) Sheard stood out at his new spot. We have a punter. Rubin is definitely a pro bowler-this year he might get the recognition. Browns have the second ranked pass defense after 2 games =) Hopefully this win gets the monkey off the team's back after a disappointing debut because there's a lot of winnable games ahead.

The bad:
Oline is getting 0 push in the run game...basically it.

Brown Leader
09-21-2011, 10:47 AM
Oh, and about Chad-injuries robbed him of what could have been a career similar to Brees. When healthy he was very good and absolutely capable imo of leading a team to a ring. But Herm was no Sean Payton.

recap:

2002 - 104.2 rating-his best season-1st as starter. playoffs
2003 - misses first 6gms with fractured wrist. 82.9 rat.
2004 - 91.0 rat. shoulder surgery following rotator cuff in playoffs @ Pitt
2005 - another shoulder surgery-lost week 3 for the season-Herm bailed on him and the team
2006 - 82.6 rat Comeback player of the year-playoffs-creates Mangenius
2007 - high ankle sprain early on 86.1 rat coach prefers Kellen Clemens
2008 - 97.4 rat Comeback player again-turns Mia 1 win to 11- makes Tuna and Sparano look great- playoffs- ok another bad game but that squad overachieved.
2009 - Yet another shoulder injury-lost for season after 3gms
2010 - Henne takes over. the end.
2011 - Basketball oops- Broadcasting

Iamcanadian
09-25-2011, 10:13 AM
Oh, and about Chad-injuries robbed him of what could have been a career similar to Brees. When healthy he was very good and absolutely capable imo of leading a team to a ring. But Herm was no Sean Payton.

recap:

2002 - 104.2 rating-his best season-1st as starter. playoffs
2003 - misses first 6gms with fractured wrist. 82.9 rat.
2004 - 91.0 rat. shoulder surgery following rotator cuff in playoffs @ Pitt
2005 - another shoulder surgery-lost week 3 for the season-Herm bailed on him and the team
2006 - 82.6 rat Comeback player of the year-playoffs-creates Mangenius
2007 - high ankle sprain early on 86.1 rat coach prefers Kellen Clemens
2008 - 97.4 rat Comeback player again-turns Mia 1 win to 11- makes Tuna and Sparano look great- playoffs- ok another bad game but that squad overachieved.
2009 - Yet another shoulder injury-lost for season after 3gms
2010 - Henne takes over. the end.
2011 - Basketball oops- Broadcasting

There is no physical similarity between Chad and Brees. Chad had a noodle for an arm while Brees has an above average NFL arm.
Chad was very accurate which was his strength but he couldn't make every throw which limited his effectiveness. Brees has no such limitation.

Iamcanadian
09-25-2011, 10:16 AM
I like how that sounds.

The good:
Colt was a fine game manger against the Colts. Massa had the best catch of his career. Cribbs started. (if we feed him the ball he can take over games-that should be obvious by now.) Sheard stood out at his new spot. We have a punter. Rubin is definitely a pro bowler-this year he might get the recognition. Browns have the second ranked pass defense after 2 games =) Hopefully this win gets the monkey off the team's back after a disappointing debut because there's a lot of winnable games ahead.

The bad:
Oline is getting 0 push in the run game...basically it.

The pass defense rating is totally misleading having faced Dalton and Collins and Dalton didn't even finish the game.

Da-Phins
09-25-2011, 10:37 AM
Good luck today guys. Hoping for an entertaining, injury free game today.

Brown Leader
09-27-2011, 12:49 AM
There is no physical similarity between Chad and Brees. Chad had a noodle for an arm while Brees has an above average NFL arm.
Chad was very accurate which was his strength but he couldn't make every throw which limited his effectiveness. Brees has no such limitation.

No physical similarity? What are you talking about, they both got the comb over. ;)

Meh, both small stature guys with great understanding of the game, accuracy, leadership traits. Chad's arm progressively got worse while Brees has maintained and maby even improved his arm.

The pass defense rating is totally misleading having faced Dalton and Collins and Dalton didn't even finish the game.
Hence, the smiley face after I wrote it.

But Haden is nearing a Revis like level after shutting down Green, Wayne and now Marshall. If he starts making plays on the ball too, he's there.

Sheard is really kind of beasting now. Looking like the best rookie DE. Taylor's doing fine but it irks me when he takes plays off. That doesn't look good next to a hustling beast like Rubin.

McCoy looked a lot like the first game except here he pulled out a win-good thing it wasn't raining.

SolidGold
10-03-2011, 10:21 AM
sounds like the Browns front office/coach is trying to force Hillis out of Cleveland or gain leverage on him in contract negotiaitons.. They are phasing him out of the offense for the less talented Hardesty and spreading rumors that he missed last weeks game because of his contract situation..ignoring the fact that he lost 10-2 lbs. Pretty pathetic stuff and a bad way to treat their best offensive player.

Brown Leader
10-05-2011, 08:47 PM
sounds like the Browns front office/coach is trying to force Hillis out of Cleveland or gain leverage on him in contract negotiaitons.. They are phasing him out of the offense for the less talented Hardesty and spreading rumors that he missed last weeks game because of his contract situation..ignoring the fact that he lost 10-2 lbs. Pretty pathetic stuff and a bad way to treat their best offensive player.
Browns don't want to pay Hillis for what he did in 2010. At this point they probably want to see what his role will be in the new offense before they give him a big contract. As far as the game against the Titans-I figure they felt Hardesty is more explosive and since they were down big, he was more apt to make a big play than Hillis. And "less talented" ? ...that's debatable. Less experienced for sure.

So Hillis' agent has come out and said he advised him not to play...so much for spreading rumors. Idk why it's such an issue anyways-a few players random thoughts become a media frenzy-smh. Hillis is great and needs to stay in Clev but he's not the team's best offensive player.

Brown Leader
10-11-2011, 02:01 AM
*crickets*
I'm not buying Shurmur's "getting to know the players" thing. It's the same GM who knows who the playmakers are. How could you evaluate the team before this season and come up with anything but, I need to get the ball to Hillis and Cribbs?

Cudders
10-12-2011, 04:19 AM
*crickets*
I'm not buying Shurmur's "getting to know the players" thing. It's the same GM who knows who the playmakers are. How could you evaluate the team before this season and come up with anything but, I need to get the ball to Hillis and Cribbs?

I know this sentiment appears to have gained some traction in Ohio, but I'm not prepared to throw Shurmur under the bus just yet. Granted, the offense has been tough to watch so far and that's his side of the ball. That said, I think this is more a problem of perception than reality and I don't want to overreact to the situation. On a per-game basis, Hillis is getting more touches this season than he did in 2010 under Mangini. And, mind you, this is a guy that burned out down the stretch last year after being saddled with a season-long, strenuous workload. On top of that, he was only a week or so removed from battling a viral infection and found himself a victim of falling behind early against the Titans. When examining all of those factors in conjunction, I have little problem with Hillis' role in the offense at this point.

The underlying force at work here is Hillis' contract situation, even generating some attention in my parts of the woods. Two things are clear to me though. One, it's clear that Hillis wants to be paid. And two, it's clear there's a gulf with the potential to get contentious separating the parties involved. Likely, Hillis wants to be paid like an upper echelon back. Frankly, he's not worth that kind of money. Let some other team overpay for his services if that's the case. How does his contract affect his current status? Simple. If the Browns front office and coaching staff have reasonable doubts that Hillis won't be returning to Cleveland next season, it makes it imperative to evaluate Montario Hardesty accordingly and gauge exactly what he brings to the table for your football team. Personally, I don't think the drop-off is significantly severe, but the injury history worries me moving forward.

I wouldn't mind getting the ball in Cribbs' hands more because he is our best option to take a short pass the distance, but he's still a gadget player to me. As far as I'm concerned, the experiment at wide out is over. He's not a starting caliber receiver. He certainly has a spot in specialized packages and he's dangerous when he gets the rock in space, but he's better suited deeper on the depth chart long-term. Like I said though, since this offense seems reliant on short throws, I wouldn't be opposed to increasing his usage. Which brings me to...

Colt McCoy. From what I've seen, I haven't been impressed. Color me a skeptic or pessimist or whatever, but I'm souring on him more and more. Yes, he's made some strides and improved a little as a passer since first entering the league. And, sure, he doesn't have the best supporting cast to work with. But I don't like what I've seen from him through the first block of games. I don't know if it's a lack of confidence in his arm or unfamiliarity with the offense or the reads that the system itself dictates, but this offense is vertically challenged in the worst way. In today's NFL, offenses need at least pose a vertical threat to stretch the field. The Browns don't. With athleticism and speed trending upward on the other side of the ball, it's much harder to move the chains by attacking defenses horizontally. Offenses that successfully accomplish it often have years of continuity and veteran execution on their side. The Browns have neither of those things. Yet this is a dink-and-dunk offense. Now, I'm not saying that McCoy should be run out of town this week or even the next. He should play out the rest of the season and get plenty of snaps on tape for evaluation purposes. What I am saying though is that McCoy hasn't shown me enough to warrant seriously considering alternatives in 2012.

SolidGold
10-12-2011, 08:15 AM
It also baffles me that the Browns don't get Evan Moore involved more in the offense. He is a good offensive weapon and could be used in several ways.

Brown Leader
10-12-2011, 08:00 PM
I know this sentiment appears to have gained some traction in Ohio, but I'm not prepared to throw Shurmur under the bus just yet. Granted, the offense has been tough to watch so far and that's his side of the ball. That said, I think this is more a problem of perception than reality and I don't want to overreact to the situation. On a per-game basis, Hillis is getting more touches this season than he did in 2010 under Mangini. And, mind you, this is a guy that burned out down the stretch last year after being saddled with a season-long, strenuous workload. On top of that, he was only a week or so removed from battling a viral infection and found himself a victim of falling behind early against the Titans. When examining all of those factors in conjunction, I have little problem with Hillis' role in the offense at this point.

The underlying force at work here is Hillis' contract situation, even generating some attention in my parts of the woods. Two things are clear to me though. One, it's clear that Hillis wants to be paid. And two, it's clear there's a gulf with the potential to get contentious separating the parties involved. Likely, Hillis wants to be paid like an upper echelon back. Frankly, he's not worth that kind of money. Let some other team overpay for his services if that's the case. How does his contract affect his current status? Simple. If the Browns front office and coaching staff have reasonable doubts that Hillis won't be returning to Cleveland next season, it makes it imperative to evaluate Montario Hardesty accordingly and gauge exactly what he brings to the table for your football team. Personally, I don't think the drop-off is significantly severe, but the injury history worries me moving forward.

I wouldn't mind getting the ball in Cribbs' hands more because he is our best option to take a short pass the distance, but he's still a gadget player to me. As far as I'm concerned, the experiment at wide out is over. He's not a starting caliber receiver. He certainly has a spot in specialized packages and he's dangerous when he gets the rock in space, but he's better suited deeper on the depth chart long-term. Like I said though, since this offense seems reliant on short throws, I wouldn't be opposed to increasing his usage. Which brings me to...

Colt McCoy. From what I've seen, I haven't been impressed. Color me a skeptic or pessimist or whatever, but I'm souring on him more and more. Yes, he's made some strides and improved a little as a passer since first entering the league. And, sure, he doesn't have the best supporting cast to work with. But I don't like what I've seen from him through the first block of games. I don't know if it's a lack of confidence in his arm or unfamiliarity with the offense or the reads that the system itself dictates, but this offense is vertically challenged in the worst way. In today's NFL, offenses need at least pose a vertical threat to stretch the field. The Browns don't. With athleticism and speed trending upward on the other side of the ball, it's much harder to move the chains by attacking defenses horizontally. Offenses that successfully accomplish it often have years of continuity and veteran execution on their side. The Browns have neither of those things. Yet this is a dink-and-dunk offense. Now, I'm not saying that McCoy should be run out of town this week or even the next. He should play out the rest of the season and get plenty of snaps on tape for evaluation purposes. What I am saying though is that McCoy hasn't shown me enough to warrant seriously considering alternatives in 2012.

We're actually from the same neck of woods-CT. I'm not quite ready to give up on the dream of Cribbs becoming a starting WR in the mold of T.J. Houshmanzadeh or Hines Ward, guys who worked their way up from ST to become solid receivers, however unlikely it is. It really would be interesting though to see what Cribbs might look like with a truly good QB at the helm.

Going forward it'll be interesting to see just how committed Shurmur is to the run. If he prefers an Andy Reid style offense there might not be a need for two starting caliber 3 down RBs. I'd prefer a run heavy, Gruden style WCO, in which Hillis and Hardesty would be ideal but I'm doubtful that's the identity Shurmur is going for.

Completely agree on McCoy. Although I will say, he's missed on a few deeper throws that, if completed, would make his play and that of the overall offense look a whole lot better. But, still, I'm already taking a hard look at the 2012 QB prospects.

Iamcanadian
10-13-2011, 01:58 PM
I have no problem with the HC. When you hire a new HC, a house cleaning takes place as he replaces those who don't fit his system.
The fact is if you remove the rose coloured glasses, this team lacks impact players on both sides of the ball with a mediocre talent base at best, and we aren't going to be competitive until we find REAL impact players in the draft.
Unfortunately with Baltimore and Pittsburgh in our Division, we are years away from being truly competitive. We have settled into a franchise that will draft top 10 but never top 5 and that means we will never get a shot at the "Luck's" of this world. We are going to need an awful lot of luck at the draft table to find the necessary impact players to take us to the next level and I'm not sold on the idea that our owner has the patience needed to build a winner correctly and will panic again and bring in a new management team 2 or 3 years down the road and start all over.

SolidGold
10-13-2011, 02:06 PM
I think Pittsburgh is on the downswing to be honest. I would not be surprised to see the Bengals and Browns both split the series with them this year. The Browns and Bengals both have youth on their side. The next few years the Steelers will be losing their defensive core - Hampton, Keisel, Smith, Polamalu, Clark, Ike Taylor, Farrior and James Harrison are all in their early to mid 30s. Ben is a very underrated QB imo, without him they are a .500 team at best. That offensive line is a wreck.

Cleveland has done a pretty good job in the past few drafts. They need a big play WR - luckily the next draft is deep in this position, an impact 4-3 DE, O-line help - Right tackle and Guard and depending on McCoy's development a QB.

Cudders
10-14-2011, 01:23 PM
We're actually from the same neck of woods-CT. I'm not quite ready to give up on the dream of Cribbs becoming a starting WR in the mold of T.J. Houshmanzadeh or Hines Ward, guys who worked their way up from ST to become solid receivers, however unlikely it is. It really would be interesting though to see what Cribbs might look like with a truly good QB at the helm.

Nice to know I'm not the only Browns fan around here, haha.

To your point, I think Cribbs should be viewed as a weapon first and foremost. He's a jack-of-all-trades and our best big play threat to boot. With how much this offense revolves around underneath stuff and mesh concepts, I wouldn't mind Cribbs getting more targets this year. But he's still way too inconsistent for my liking on the perimeter and I don't trust him enough to pencil him in as our long-term split-end, flanker, or slot. And, by the way, I absolutely love him in that role as a fourth wide out and full-time special teams demon. He brings a lot to the table for an offense and football team. But at this point his ceiling is a debate of plausible versus possible.

Going forward it'll be interesting to see just how committed Shurmur is to the run. If he prefers an Andy Reid style offense there might not be a need for two starting caliber 3 down RBs. I'd prefer a run heavy, Gruden style WCO, in which Hillis and Hardesty would be ideal but I'm doubtful that's the identity Shurmur is going for.

I'm interested to see how his scheme unfolds as well. Shurmur used the tools available to him as offensive coordinator of the Rams. In 2009, Steven Jackson had 324 rushing attempts, which was third most in the NFL. In 2010, Steven Jackson followed that up with 330 rushing attempts, which was second most in the NFL. So Shurmur's body of work certainly suggests that he isn't opposed to a run-heavy offense. Whether his play-calling in St. Louis was influenced by Spagnuolo's philosophies remains to be seen though.

Completely agree on McCoy. Although I will say, he's missed on a few deeper throws that, if completed, would make his play and that of the overall offense look a whole lot better. But, still, I'm already taking a hard look at the 2012 QB prospects.

His deep ball is a long-standing source of doubt though. I've gotten in numerous arguments so far about McCoy as the future of this organization. Quite frankly, I wasn't expecting him to light the world on fire in 2011. Far from it. All I was expecting was some tangible improvement in a few areas and he hasn't delivered those results. For being heralded as an accurate passer, I've been disappointed with him in that regard even in the short-to-intermediate ranges. He's leaving balls at his receiver's feet far too often. And, for being touted as a cerebral quarterback, he looks awfully uncomfortable and uncertain in the pocket.

McCoy's shortcomings are especially troubling if Shurmur does intend on implementing a pass-first system. I was never ready to buy into Colt as a guy that could put a pro team on his shoulders and carry an aerial attack. But, if he was surrounded with a plethora of talent on offense and backed with a strong defense, I thought he had a legitimate shot at being a reliable caretaker; however, if Shurmur intends to make him the identity of the offense, I think it's putting Colt in a precarious position. A struggling young passer without much help offensively in an environment notoriously ill-suited for passing games? Oh boy...

I have no problem with the HC. When you hire a new HC, a house cleaning takes place as he replaces those who don't fit his system.

Hillis isn't an issue of fit. Hillis is a permeable back. He can carve out a spot in all types of offenses, including any variant of the West Coast system. He's a bruiser with plus athleticism and surprising softness in the passing game. I'd be mildly shocked if Hillis' role in this offense was related to anything other than his contract situation.

The fact is if you remove the rose coloured glasses, this team lacks impact players on both sides of the ball with a mediocre talent base at best, and we aren't going to be competitive until we find REAL impact players in the draft.

Who argues otherwise? In reality, the Browns have four guys that I would feel comfortable calling impact players. Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Joe Haden, and Josh Cribbs as a special unit ace. Then they have a few players that are very solid contributors. Peyton Hillis, D'Qwell Jackson, Ahtyba Rubin, etc. I think Greg Little and Phil Taylor have fair potential to become impact players from what we've seen so far. But I really don't think anyone is arguing the Browns as contenders as currently constructed. The need for a talent infusion or two is quite obvious.

Unfortunately with Baltimore and Pittsburgh in our Division, we are years away from being truly competitive. We have settled into a franchise that will draft top 10 but never top 5 and that means we will never get a shot at the "Luck's" of this world. We are going to need an awful lot of luck at the draft table to find the necessary impact players to take us to the next level and I'm not sold on the idea that our owner has the patience needed to build a winner correctly and will panic again and bring in a new management team 2 or 3 years down the road and start all over.

Teams do not need a slew of top five picks to become competitive. It's popular to say on a draft site, but it's simply not true. You can find talented players and important pieces all over the draft. The only position your argument has its merits at is quarterback. But it isn't impossible to find a promising signal-caller unless you're drafting first overall. Not to mention, the Browns have the ammunition to make a move for a big-time quarterback prospect if it's deemed necessary next April.

I think Pittsburgh is on the downswing to be honest. I would not be surprised to see the Bengals and Browns both split the series with them this year. The Browns and Bengals both have youth on their side. The next few years the Steelers will be losing their defensive core - Hampton, Keisel, Smith, Polamalu, Clark, Ike Taylor, Farrior and James Harrison are all in their early to mid 30s. Ben is a very underrated QB imo, without him they are a .500 team at best. That offensive line is a wreck.

I couldn't agree more on Big Ben. His style of play isn't easy to watch, but it's incredibly effective. Even when their defensive core completely falls apart outside of Timmons and Woodley, I think Ben's underrated ability keeps them very relevant within the division. But you're right. It's not like the Steelers are an unsurpassable road block. The same can be said for the Ravens.

Cleveland has done a pretty good job in the past few drafts. They need a big play WR - luckily the next draft is deep in this position, an impact 4-3 DE, O-line help - Right tackle and Guard and depending on McCoy's development a QB.

That's a spot-on assessment of Cleveland's needs more or less. If Colt doesn't improve, quarterback is a first-round priority. So is a game-changing receiver and a stud pass rusher. Right tackle and guard are mid-round values to me. Personally, I would like the Browns to add some athleticism next to D'Qwell Jackson at linebacker. The second level of this defense is woefully unathletic. Free safety is probably a need too, I'm just not sure how dire yet.

Iamcanadian
10-16-2011, 12:35 PM
Nice to know I'm not the only Browns fan around here, haha.

To your point, I think Cribbs should be viewed as a weapon first and foremost. He's a jack-of-all-trades and our best big play threat to boot. With how much this offense revolves around underneath stuff and mesh concepts, I wouldn't mind Cribbs getting more targets this year. But he's still way too inconsistent for my liking on the perimeter and I don't trust him enough to pencil him in as our long-term split-end, flanker, or slot. And, by the way, I absolutely love him in that role as a fourth wide out and full-time special teams demon. He brings a lot to the table for an offense and football team. But at this point his ceiling is a debate of plausible versus possible.



I'm interested to see how his scheme unfolds as well. Shurmur used the tools available to him as offensive coordinator of the Rams. In 2009, Steven Jackson had 324 rushing attempts, which was third most in the NFL. In 2010, Steven Jackson followed that up with 330 rushing attempts, which was second most in the NFL. So Shurmur's body of work certainly suggests that he isn't opposed to a run-heavy offense. Whether his play-calling in St. Louis was influenced by Spagnuolo's philosophies remains to be seen though.



His deep ball is a long-standing source of doubt though. I've gotten in numerous arguments so far about McCoy as the future of this organization. Quite frankly, I wasn't expecting him to light the world on fire in 2011. Far from it. All I was expecting was some tangible improvement in a few areas and he hasn't delivered those results. For being heralded as an accurate passer, I've been disappointed with him in that regard even in the short-to-intermediate ranges. He's leaving balls at his receiver's feet far too often. And, for being touted as a cerebral quarterback, he looks awfully uncomfortable and uncertain in the pocket.

McCoy's shortcomings are especially troubling if Shurmur does intend on implementing a pass-first system. I was never ready to buy into Colt as a guy that could put a pro team on his shoulders and carry an aerial attack. But, if he was surrounded with a plethora of talent on offense and backed with a strong defense, I thought he had a legitimate shot at being a reliable caretaker; however, if Shurmur intends to make him the identity of the offense, I think it's putting Colt in a precarious position. A struggling young passer without much help offensively in an environment notoriously ill-suited for passing games? Oh boy...



Hillis isn't an issue of fit. Hillis is a permeable back. He can carve out a spot in all types of offenses, including any variant of the West Coast system. He's a bruiser with plus athleticism and surprising softness in the passing game. I'd be mildly shocked if Hillis' role in this offense was related to anything other than his contract situation.



Who argues otherwise? In reality, the Browns have four guys that I would feel comfortable calling impact players. Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Joe Haden, and Josh Cribbs as a special unit ace. Then they have a few players that are very solid contributors. Peyton Hillis, D'Qwell Jackson, Ahtyba Rubin, etc. I think Greg Little and Phil Taylor have fair potential to become impact players from what we've seen so far. But I really don't think anyone is arguing the Browns as contenders as currently constructed. The need for a talent infusion or two is quite obvious.

Personally, I'd leave Mack out of the equation, OC is a secondary position on a pro football team, a position that almost all teams fill with a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Thomas is certainly an impact player and Haden is close but they were expected to be since they were both top 10 picks. Cribbs is a very nice player but like Hester isn't really an every down player.
My philosophy is simple, learned over 50 years of watching pro sports teams build themselves into champions, 'you finish last to get the top end talent to finish first', constantly finishing in the middle keeps you there for years.
Sure, it is easy to say, top 10 talent especially top 5 talent won't make you a champion but you put a solid NFL GM in charge of a team and he will use those picks to produce a solid contender.
Yeah, we can all point out players who became impact players from being drafted later in round 1 and even the lower rounds but it is a very tough challenge to find them and very few teams can rebuild using later picks.
Look at NE, a team that develops talent very well but drafts later in round 1, they have the 32nd ranked defense with only one impact player on that side of the ball, Mayo, who by the way is the only high draft pick on their defense. So if we continue to totally waste our high round 1 picks by trading back, it is a sure fire recipe for mediocrity, and with an owner who cannot stay the course and tends to panic quickly, no GM is ever going to get the time with him, to use a slow method of development.
I'd say our future is currently bleak, it is going to take a real miracle to right this sinking ship.


Teams do not need a slew of top five picks to become competitive. It's popular to say on a draft site, but it's simply not true. You can find talented players and important pieces all over the draft. The only position your argument has its merits at is quarterback. But it isn't impossible to find a promising signal-caller unless you're drafting first overall. Not to mention, the Browns have the ammunition to make a move for a big-time quarterback prospect if it's deemed necessary next April.

Here I completely disagree, see above, I repeat, you finish last to get the talent to finish first through the draft. Sure, for years, Cincy, Buffalo, and even Arizona had high picks every year but they were all low income teams with very small scouting departments who lacked the funds to hire the top people to make their draft picks.
Detroit under Matt Millen is a perfect example of a horrible GM hired by a weak owner, who destroyed his team with high picks, but suddenly the owner gets lucky and finds a GM who got the job done with high picks and the Lions will only get better and be a top team for years.


I couldn't agree more on Big Ben. His style of play isn't easy to watch, but it's incredibly effective. Even when their defensive core completely falls apart outside of Timmons and Woodley, I think Ben's underrated ability keeps them very relevant within the division. But you're right. It's not like the Steelers are an unsurpassable road block. The same can be said for the Ravens.



That's a spot-on assessment of Cleveland's needs more or less. If Colt doesn't improve, quarterback is a first-round priority. So is a game-changing receiver and a stud pass rusher. Right tackle and guard are mid-round values to me. Personally, I would like the Browns to add some athleticism next to D'Qwell Jackson at linebacker. The second level of this defense is woefully unathletic. Free safety is probably a need too, I'm just not sure how dire yet.

First and foremost, we must get a franchise QB, without a stud at this position, you are not a contender, period.

SolidGold
10-16-2011, 05:01 PM
So is Hillis pretty much done in Cleveland? After all the lip service from Shurmur looks like they are going with Hardesty anyways.

BuckeyeDan17
10-16-2011, 09:03 PM
Yup. Madden curse exists through coaching decisions now not just injury. Cleveland: Innovation for curses. ****

keylime_5
10-18-2011, 01:26 PM
seems like they suck at running the ball no matter who they put in there. I guess losing both of the starting OGs from last year and replacing them both with in all essence two rookies will do that.

I really don't get the whole not play hillis and until sunday hardly play evan moore (which was replaced with play watson a lot less). seems like we're taking our best playmakers off the field too much.

Our offense last year was Hillis and Watson. We need to get Hillis, Watson, and Cribbs the ball a LOT more if we're gonna do anything on offense. The west coast system is supposed to be about short passes with the backs and tight ends heavily involved. It seems like Colt's completion pct. is really low in part b/c we throw it downfield to our below average WRs too much.

Cudders
10-19-2011, 07:19 AM
Personally, I'd leave Mack out of the equation, OC is a secondary position on a pro football team, a position that almost all teams fill with a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Thomas is certainly an impact player and Haden is close but they were expected to be since they were both top 10 picks. Cribbs is a very nice player but like Hester isn't really an every down player.

Center is the second most important position on the offensive line. They’re responsible for making all of the line calls and keeping the quarterback clean. Alex Mack is one of the best in the NFL. He absolutely qualifies as an impact player.

As far as Cribbs goes, it doesn’t matter that he isn’t an every-down player. On special teams, he has an indelible impact on the course of a game. That makes him an impact player. He’s a fearsome weapon to have in the battle of field position. Consistently winning that battle is critical in the NFL.

My philosophy is simple, learned over 50 years of watching pro sports teams build themselves into champions, 'you finish last to get the top end talent to finish first', constantly finishing in the middle keeps you there for years. Sure, it is easy to say, top 10 talent especially top 5 talent won't make you a champion but you put a solid NFL GM in charge of a team and he will use those picks to produce a solid contender.

I understand the basic premise behind the draft. But, again, that’s simply not true. See below.

2009 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: None.

2009 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(13) Brian Orakpo, 1(15) Brian Cushing, 1(21) Alex Mack, 1(22) Percy Harvin, 1(26) Clay Matthews, 2(42) Jairus Byrd, 3(84) Mike Wallace, 5(140) Johnny Knox.

Notable Contributors: 1(17) Josh Freeman, 1(19) Jeremy Maclin, 1(20) Brandon Pettigrew, 1(29) Hakeem Nicks, 1(30) Kenny Britt, 1(31) Beanie Wells, 2(35) James Laurinaitis, 2(53) LeSean McCoy, 2(55) William Moore, 2(58) Sebastian Vollmer, 3(65) Shonn Greene, 3(76) DeAndre Levy, 4(107) Mike Thomas, 4(108) Brian Hartline, 4(110) Victor Butler, 4(127) Austin Collie, 6(203) Jason McCourty, 7(232) Julian Edelman, 7(240) LaRod Stephens-Howling, 7(250) Rashad Jennings.

Undrafted Free Agents: Arian Foster (Pro Bowler), Jacob Lacey, Jamaal Westerman, Michael Bennett.

2008 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(1) Jake Long, 1(3) Matt Ryan, 1(10) Jarod Mayo.

2008 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(12) Ryan Clady, 1(16) Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, 1(24) Chris Johnson, 1(25) Mike Jenkins, 2(49) DeSean Jackson, 2(55) Ray Rice, 3(73) Jamaal Charles, 5(164) Carl Nicks.

Notable Contributors: 1(13) Jonathan Stewart, 1(18) Joe Flacco, 1(20) Aqib Talib, 1(22) Felix Jones, 1(23) Rashard Mendenhall, 2(35) Brandon Flowers, 2(36) Jordy Nelson, 2(44) Matt Forte, 2(50) Calais Campbell, 2(54) Jason Jones, 3(91) Jermichael Finley, 3(92) Cliff Avril, 3(95) Mario Manningham, 4(122) Tashard Choice, 4(135) Josh Sitton, 5(139) Ryan Torain, 5(149) Tim Hightower, 6(190) Ahtyba Rubin, 6(205) Pierre Garcon, 7(224) Steve Johnson, 7(227) Peyton Hillis.

Undrafted Free Agents: Dan Carpenter (Pro Bowler), Clifton Smith (Pro Bowler), Danny Amendola, Davone Bess, BenJarvus Green-Ellis, Gary Guyton, Jameel McClain, Mike Tolbert, Danny Woodhead.

2007 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(2) Calvin Johnson, 1(3) Joe Thomas, 1(7) Adrian Peterson.

2007 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: (11) Patrick Willis, 1(12) Marshawn Lynch, 1(14) Darrelle Revis, 1(19) Michael Griffin, 1(23) Dwayne Bowe, 1(24) Brandon Meriweather, 1(25) Jon Beason, 2(38) Zach Miller, 2(45) Sidney Rice, 2(46) LaMarr Woodley, 2(51) Steve Smith, 2(59) Ryan Kalil, 4(116) Zak DeOssie, 4(137) LeRon McClain, 6(178) Nick Folk.

Notable Contributors: 1(15) Lawrence Timmons, 1(18) Leon Hall, 1(29) Ben Grubbs, 2(34) Paul Posluszny, 2(36) Kevin Kolb, 2(37) Eric Weddle, 2(39) Justin Blalock, 2(47) David Harris, 3(68) Quincy Black, 3(78) James Jones, 3(79) Mike Sims-Walker, 3(83) Charles Johnson, 3(85) Brandon Mebane, 3(86) Marshal Yanda, 4(100) Michael Bush, 4(106) Tanard Jackson, 4(108) Paul Soliai, 4(115) LeRoy Harris, 4(122) Doug Free, 4(125) Jermon Bushrod, 4(126) DaShon Goldson, 4(136) Clint Session, 5(153) Kevin Boss, 5(162) Brent Celek, 5(172) Legedu Naane, 6(192) Desmond Bishop, 6(193) Mason Crosby, 7(250) Ahmad Bradshaw.

Undrafted Free Agents: Eric Weems (Pro Bowler), Pierre Thomas, Lyle Sendlein, Stephon Heyer, Melvin Bullitt, Mike DeVito.

2006 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(1) Mario Williams, 1(3) Vince Young, 1(4) D’Brickashaw Ferguson, 1(5) Vernon Davis, 1(7) Michael Huff.

2006 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(11) Jay Cutler, 1(12) Haloti Ngata, 1(19) Antonio Cromartie, 1(20) Tamba Hali, 1(23) Davin Joseph, 1(27) DeAngelo Williams, 1(28) Mercedes Lewis, 1(29) Nick Mangold, 1(30) Joseph Addai, 2(33) DeMeco Ryans, 2(43) Roman Harper, 2(50) Marcus McNeil, 2(52) Greg Jennings, 2(57) Devin Hester, 2(60) Maurice Jones-Drew, 4(98) Owen Daniels, 4(108) Jahri Evans, 4(117) Leon Washington, 4(118) Stephen Gostkowski, 4(119) Brandon Marshall, 4(126) Elvis Dumervil, 5(134) Kyle Williams, 6(207) Antoine Bethea, 7(215) Cortland Finnegan.

Notable Contributors: 1(17) Chad Greenway, 1(24) Jonathan Joseph, 1(25) Santonio Holmes, 2(34) D’Qwell Jackson, 4(103) Brad Smith, 4(116) Stephen Tulloch, 4(124) Barry Cofield, 4(127) Ray Edwards, 5(145) Jerome Harrison, 5(146) Dawan Landry, 6(180) Lawrence Vickers, 7(252) Marques Colston.

Undrafted Free Agents: Miles Austin (Pro Bowler), Tramon Williams (Pro Bowler), Brent Grimes (Pro Bowler), Donald Penn (Pro Bowler), Montell Owens (Pro Bowler).

2005 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(2) Ronnie Brown, 1(3) Braylon Edwards, 1(8) Antrel Rolle.

2005 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(11) DeMarcus Ware, 1(12) Shawne Merriman, 1(13) Jamaal Brown, 1(24) Aaron Rodgers, 1(27) Roddy White, 1(30) Heath Miller, 1(32) Logan Mankins, 2(41) Michael Roos, 2(45) Lofa Tatupu, 2(51) Nick Collins, 2(57) Justin Miller, 2(61) Vincent Jackson, 3(65) Frank Gore, 3(74) Justin Tuck, 4(109) Marion Barber III, 4(114) Jerome Mathis, 5(146) Trent Cole, 6(213) Derek Anderson, 7(224) Jay Ratliff, 7(230) Matt Cassel.

Notable Contributors: 1(14) Thomas Davis, 1(20) Marcus Spears, 2(36) Barrett Ruud, 2(43) Corey Webster, 2(59) Jonathan Babineaux, 3(66) O.J. Atogwe, 3(78) Kirk Morrison, 4(106) Kyle Orton, 4(115) Brandon Jacobs, 4(123) Kerry Rhodes, 4(130) Darren Sproles, 4(132) Chris Canty, 5(160) Michael Boley, 7(250) Ryan Fitzpatrick.

Undrafted Free Agents: Cameron Wake (Pro Bowler), Josh Cribbs (Pro Bowler), Leonard Weaver (Pro Bowler), Robbie Gould (Pro Bowler), Heath Farwell (Pro Bowler), John Denney (Pro Bowler), Ryan Grant, Lance Moore, Nate Washington, Jim Leonhard, James Butler.

2004 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(1) Eli Manning, 1(3) Larry Fitzgerald, 1(4) Philip Rivers, 1(5) Sean Taylor, 1(6) Kellen Winslow, 1(7) Roy Williams, 1(8) DeAngelo Hall.

2004 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(11) Ben Roethlisberger, 1(12) Jonathan Vilma, 1(14) Tommie Harris, 1(16) Shawn Andrews, 1(18) Will Smith, 1(21) Vince Wilfork, 1(24) Steven Jackson, 1(27) Jason Babin, 2(34) Chris Snee, 2(44) Bob Sanders, 2(55) Greg Jones, 3(64) Darnell Dockett, 3(65) Nate Kaeding, 3(66) Nick Hardwick, 3(71) Randy Starks, 3(81) Chris Cooley, 3(90) Matt Schaub, 4(98) Shaun Phillips, 4(110) Nathan Vasher, 4(126) Jared Allen, 5(154) Michael Turner, 6(188) Andy Lee.

Notable Contributors: 1(28) Chris Gamble, 2(33) Karlos Dansby, 2(35) Igor Olshansky, 2(47) Tank Johnson, 2(50) Devery Henderson, 3(75) Max Starks, 3(77) Bernard Berrian, 3(94) Travelle Wharton, 4(108) Jerricho Cotchery, 5(135) Antonio Smith, 7(216) Patrick Clayton.

Undrafted Free Agents: Wes Welker (Pro Bowler), Jason Peters (Pro Bowler), Vonta Leach (Pro Bowler), Willie Parker (Pro Bowler), Mat McBriar (Pro Bowler), Jon Condo (Pro Bowler), Ryan Lilja, Malcom Floyd.

2003 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(1) Carson Palmer, 1(3) Andre Johnson, 1(5) Terrance Newman, 1(8) Jordan Gross, 1(9) Kevin Williams, 1(10) Terrell Suggs.

2003 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(11) Marcus Trufant, 1(16) Troy Polamalu, 1(21) Jeff Faine, 1(23) Willis McGahee, 1(24) Dallas Clark, 1(27) Larry Johnson, 1(31) Nnamdi Asomugha, 2(37) Jon Stinchcomb, 2(39) Rashean Mathis, 2(40) E.J. Henderson, 2(42) Ken Hamlin, 2(54) Anquan Boldin, 2(56) Osi Umenyiora, 3(68) Lance Briggs, 3(69) Jason Witten, 4(111) Terrance McGee, 4(120) Asante Samuel, 4(124) Brandon Lloyd, 4(134) Ovie Mugheli, 5(138) Robert Mathis, 5(142) Ryan Pontbriand, 5(160) David Diehl, 5(164) Dan Koppen, 6(188) Hanik Milligan, 6(198) Cato June, 6(211) David Tyree, 6(213) Yeremiah Bell.

Notable Contributors: 1(13) Ty Warren, 1(18) Calvin Pace, 1(29) Nick Barnett, 2(33) Eric Steinbach, 2(35) Charles Tillman, 3(74) Kevin Curtis, 3(81) Derrick Dockery, 4(109) Jarrett Johnson, 5(146) Aubrayo Franklin, 5(149) Mike Scrifes, 5(173) Tony Pashos, 6(195) Antonio Garay, 7(239) Tully Banta-Cain, 7(251) Scott Shanle, 7(255) Kevin Walter.

Undrafted Free Agents: Antonio Gates (Pro Bowler), Tony Romo (Pro Bowler), Kris Dielman (Pro Bowler), Quinten Mikell (Pro Bowler), Brendan Ayanbadejo (Pro Bowler), Jon Dorenbos (Pro Bowler), Kassim Osgood (Pro Bowler), Fred Jackson, Cullen Jenkins, Gary Brackett, Earnest Graham.

2002 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(2) Julius Peppers, 1(7) Bryant McKinnie, 1(8) Roy Williams, 1(9) John Henderson.

2002 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(11) Dwight Freeney, 1(14) Jeremy Shockey, 1(15) Albert Haynesworth, 1(20) Javon Walker, 1(24) Ed Reed, 1(26) Lito Sheppard, 2(37) Andre Gurode, 2(44) LeCharles Bentley, 2(51) Clinton Portis, 2(58) Michael Lewis, 3(91) Brian Westbrook, 3(94) Chris Hope, 4(108) David Garrard, 5(154) Jonathan Goodwin, 5(156) Aaron Kampman, 7(242) Brett Keisel.

Notable Contributors: 1(25) Charles Grant, 1(29) Marc Colombo, 1(30) Kendall Simmons, 2(50) Chester Pitts, 2(53) Langston Walker, 2(59) Sheldon Brown, 2(62) Antwan Randle El, 2(63) Antonio Bryant, 2(65) Deion Branch, 3(71) Ben Leber, 3(73) Will Witherspoon, 3(89) Akin Ayodele, 4(104) Alex Brown, 4(128) Larry Foote, 5(143) Scott Fujita, 5(146) Rocky Bernard, 5(147) Kenyon Coleman, 6(207) Chester Taylor, 7(244) Kevin Shaffer, 7 (248) Kyle Kosier.

Undrafted Free Agents: James Harrison (Pro Bowler), Bart Scott (Pro Bowler), Ryan Nece (Pro Bowler), Ryan Clark, Ma’ake Kemoeatu, Brandon Moore.

2001 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(1) Michael Vick, 1(2) Leonard Davis, 1(4) Justin Smith, 1(5) LaDainian Tomlinson, 1(6) Richard Seymour, 1(9) Koren Robinson.

2001 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(11) Dan Morgan, 1(13) Marcus Stroud, 1(16) Santana Moss, 1(17) Steve Hutchinson, 1(19) Casey Hampton, 1(21) Nate Clements, 1(23) Deuce McAllister, 1(27) Michael Bennett, 1(30) Reggie Wayne, 1(31) Todd Heap, 2(32) Drew Brees, 2(34) Kyle Vanden Bosch, 2(35) Alge Crumpler, 2(36) Chad Johnson, 2(39) Kendrell Bell, 2(44) Kris Jenkins, 2(46) Aaron Schobel, 2(48) Matt Light, 2(52) Chris Chambers, 2(58) Travis Henry, 2(61) Shaun Rogers, 3(63) Derrick Burgess, 3(64) Adrian Wilson, 3(74) Steve Smith, 4(100) Rudi Johnson, 5(140) Alex Bannister, 6(204) T.J. Houshmandzadeh.

Notable Contributors: 1(18) Jeff Backus, 1(29) Ryan Pickett, 2(50) Dominic Riola, 2(62) Gary Baxter, 3(79) Kareem McKinzie, 3(95) Jonas Jennings, 4(97) Anthony Henry, 4(128) Floyd Womack.

Undrafted Free Agents: Rob Bironas (Pro Bowler), Antonio Pierce (Pro Bowler), Shayne Graham (Pro Bowler), Dominic Rhodes, Rich Seubert.

2000 NFL Draft

Top 10 Pro Bowlers: 1(2) LaVar Arrington, 1(3) Chris Samuels, 1(5) Jamal Lewis, 1(6) Corey Simon, 1(7) Thomas Jones, 1(9) Brian Urlacher.

2000 NFL Draft Pro Bowlers: 1(12) Shaun Ellis, 1(13) John Abraham, 1(14) Bubba Franks, 1(15) Deltha O’Neal, 1(16) Julian Peterson, 1(19) Shaun Alexander, 1(30) Keith Bulluck, 2(38) Marvel Smith, 2(39) Mike Brown, 2(40) Ian Gold, 2(44) Chad Clifton, 2(59) Marcus Washington, 3(78) Laveranues Coles, 5(142) Shane Lechler, 5(149) Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, 5(153) Dante Hall, 6(168) Marc Bulger, 6(169) Neil Rackers, 6(186) Adalius Thomas, 6(199) Tom Brady, 7(230) Brian Jennings.

Notable Contributors: 1(18) Chad Pennington, 2(33) Darren Howard, 2(55) Fred Robbins, 3(80) Darrell Jackson, 3(81) Reuben Droughns, 4(96) Terrelle Smith, 6(177) Dhani Jones, 6(196) Robaire Smith, 7(224) Mark Tauscher.

Undrafted Free Agents: Adewale Ogunleye (Pro Bowler), Brian Water (Pro Bowler), Shaun O’Hara (Pro Bowler), Hank Fraley, James Hall.

For the record, that's forty-three Pro Bowlers coming from the top ten, one hundred eighty-eight Pro Bowlers from the remainder of the draft, and thirty-seven Pro Bowlers signed as undrafted free agents. Like I said, you can find legitimate talent outside the top ten.

Now, the Pro Bowl isn't an impeccable measuring stick of productivity, but it's a reasonable indicator of success and gives us a baseline way to judge the talent spersed throughout the draft.

As you can see, the success rate of top ten picks is nowhere near 100%. In fact, it probably hovers right around 50%. Every guy drafted high isn’t going to hit. And, to your last point, if you put a competent general manager in charge of a team, he will use whatever picks he has to produce a contender. Be they top five or fifth-round.

Yeah, we can all point out players who became impact players from being drafted later in round 1 and even the lower rounds but it is a very tough challenge to find them and very few teams can rebuild using later picks. Look at NE, a team that develops talent very well but drafts later in round 1, they have the 32nd ranked defense with only one impact player on that side of the ball, Mayo, who by the way is the only high draft pick on their defense. So if we continue to totally waste our high round 1 picks by trading back, it is a sure fire recipe for mediocrity, and with an owner who cannot stay the course and tends to panic quickly, no GM is ever going to get the time with him, to use a slow method of development.


Mayo isn’t even New England’s best defensive playmaker. That honor belongs to Vince Wilfork. Who, by the way, wasn’t a top ten pick. And no one is arguing that it isn’t harder to find playmakers deeper in the draft. That’s an obvious point. But the best front offices and franchises make a habit out of unearthing diamonds in the rough. Stockpiling high picks isn’t the key to building a team and contending on a yearly basis. Having smart decision-makers in your war room is the key.

How exactly did we “totally waste” our first-rounder by trading back this year? Let me pose you a question. In football, the ultimate team sport, would you rather have Julio Jones or Nick Fairley OR would you rather have Phil Taylor AND Greg Little. Personally, I’d rather have the latter. The early returns on both those picks look pretty promising, too.

Here I completely disagree, see above, I repeat, you finish last to get the talent to finish first through the draft. Sure, for years, Cincy, Buffalo, and even Arizona had high picks every year but they were all low income teams with very small scouting departments who lacked the funds to hire the top people to make their draft picks.

And, I repeat, that’s just not true. See above. It goes without saying that low-income teams with scouting departments in shambles aren’t going to find sustainable success anywhere in the draft; however, the top people do consistently find success at every level of the draft. In the top ten, in the early rounds, in the mid rounds, and in the late rounds. The draft process is a fraught with pitfalls, sure, but the best of the best maximize every selection. Overall team depth is an important component of competing in the NFL. Injuries happen in a sport as physical as football. Teams that find themselves thin at essential positions rely on staying healthy for an entire season. The odds of that happening though are pretty slim. That’s why the most successful front offices value all of their picks, not just the highest ones.

Here I completely disagree, see above, I repeat, you finish last to get the talent to finish first through the draft. Sure, for years, Cincy, Buffalo, and even Arizona had high picks every year but they were all low income teams with very small scouting departments who lacked the funds to hire the top people to make their draft picks.

Once again, the Lions are not the be-all, end-all model. There was a fair amount of luck involved in their ascendance. Two of the best prospects of the past decade fell right into their laps in Stafford and Suh. Those are the only high picks under Mayhew that are contributing for them right now. Not every team can count on being so blessed.

First and foremost, we must get a franchise QB, without a stud at this position, you are not a contender, period.

Agreed.

Brown Leader
10-19-2011, 10:56 PM
FRANTZ' RANTS: Cribbs' talent being wasted (http://morningjournal.com/articles/2011/10/19/sports/doc4e9f45471336a804548317.txt?viewmode=default)
This, this and more this.

SolidGold
10-20-2011, 08:03 AM
Good article on Cribbs. I have to agree, the WCO is predicated on the short/medium range passing game. Cribbs has the ability to break tackles and put up good YAC numbers. Part of me thinks Shurmur is a little overmatched so far. He seems pretty pass happy with this offense.

fear the elf
10-24-2011, 09:14 AM
Since moving to FL 2 years ago, I don't get to see many Brown's games, so I'll defer to you guys on how we are playing, but from what I hear on the radio and see in highlights, I'm starting to get worried about Colt.

I was taking a wait-and-see approach this year, as he is still young and needs reps to get accustomed to NFL speed, but he just doesn't seem to taking steps anymore. If I could see tangible evidence of improvement week-over-week, I'd be more willing to be patient, but it just doesn't seem to be clicking for him.

I think the most troubling thing to me is his lack of accuracy, when that is supposed to be his major strength. If he's not accurate, he doesn't have anything and we need to move on next year. I hope he can find himself again, because I like Colt and think he has all the tools to win in this league if he can regain his accuracy and confidence. I find the arm strength arguments overblown.

We seem to need a lot of help on this side of the ball. I don't know if the running game should be blamed on the passing game not stretching the field, the OL not opening holes, or the RB's not being as good as I thought, but something needs to be done. I think we need a RT, possibly another WR (depending on how Little develops as a starter), and maybe a QB (I hope not).

Mostly I think we lack speed/explosiveness.

On the plus-side, the defense is really impressing me. I'm trying to take it with a grain of salt seeing as we've not played any explosive offenses, but currently we have the 4th ranked defense in terms of yards/game. We are getting much more pressure on the QB than last year (without Marcus Benard) and Joe Haden is obviously turning (has already turned) into a stud, shutdown type CB.

We are so young right now that I think we have a chance to be really good on defense for a long time. What do you guys think? Maybe another OLB, probably a Sam to replace Fujita, and a CB opposite Haden. Possibly a FS as well, I'm not sure how Usama Young has looked.

BuckeyeDan17
10-24-2011, 03:35 PM
His arm strength argument isn't overblown. It's weak as ****. I gave it the benefit of the doubt prior to the season; however, when you watch him try to throw 15+ yards it looks like a punt. A ******* punt. He holds onto the ball for too long too when receivers create separation for a second.

He is making no progress whatsoever, as a matter of fact, he gets worse on a week to week basis. And you're also correct about his inaccuracy. He's having trouble hitting ******* 5 yard crossing routes. Little is our best receiver sadly, a 2nd round pick that hadn't played football in a year. It's a fact we need help at receiver, not an opinion.

And also, the right side of our line sucks Lauvao is ineffective from what I can see and Pashos is.. well, I don't know, average at best? We need some roadgraders. It doesn't matter if we have 2 pro bowlers, they can't block 5 defenders.

Hardesty looked fine this week running against one of the best run defenses in the league, i know his YPC was **** this week but if you watched jesus christ did he fight for his yards. He and Hillis could be pretty effective if used properly. BUT WAIT, I forgot, safeties against us can play 8 yards off the line of scrimmage for run support because Colt can't ******* throw 20 yards downfield.

We have no speed, no deep threat, our offense scares no one. And yeah, trust me, I get that Colt hasn't even started a full season but jesus ******* christ his completion percentage is laughable for a WCO qb.

You're right with our defensive needs to: 2nd cb, coverage FS is a def need. Usama is nothing. We do need some speed at outside linebacker also. Perhaps a more effective replacement for Mitchell even though he has been okay. Not bad.

Cudders
10-24-2011, 06:20 PM
Since moving to FL 2 years ago, I don't get to see many Brown's games, so I'll defer to you guys on how we are playing, but from what I hear on the radio and see in highlights, I'm starting to get worried about Colt.

I was taking a wait-and-see approach this year, as he is still young and needs reps to get accustomed to NFL speed, but he just doesn't seem to taking steps anymore. If I could see tangible evidence of improvement week-over-week, I'd be more willing to be patient, but it just doesn't seem to be clicking for him.

I think the most troubling thing to me is his lack of accuracy, when that is supposed to be his major strength. If he's not accurate, he doesn't have anything and we need to move on next year. I hope he can find himself again, because I like Colt and think he has all the tools to win in this league if he can regain his accuracy and confidence. I find the arm strength arguments overblown.

We seem to need a lot of help on this side of the ball. I don't know if the running game should be blamed on the passing game not stretching the field, the OL not opening holes, or the RB's not being as good as I thought, but something needs to be done. I think we need a RT, possibly another WR (depending on how Little develops as a starter), and maybe a QB (I hope not).

Mostly I think we lack speed/explosiveness.

On the plus-side, the defense is really impressing me. I'm trying to take it with a grain of salt seeing as we've not played any explosive offenses, but currently we have the 4th ranked defense in terms of yards/game. We are getting much more pressure on the QB than last year (without Marcus Benard) and Joe Haden is obviously turning (has already turned) into a stud, shutdown type CB.

We are so young right now that I think we have a chance to be really good on defense for a long time. What do you guys think? Maybe another OLB, probably a Sam to replace Fujita, and a CB opposite Haden. Possibly a FS as well, I'm not sure how Usama Young has looked.

The worries regarding Colt are pretty much spot-on. Now, I wasn't expecting Colt to come out and light the world on fire this year, but I was expecting measurable improvement. Just clear signs of progress. Asking any sophomore for mastery of their position is unreasonable, especially one as complex as quarterback. Understandably, Colt is still working through a steep learning curve. That said, I haven't seen any indicators that would suggest he's a long-term answer at quarterback aside from his intangibles and work ethic. And, suffice it to say, those two qualities can only carry you so far at such a demanding position. Eventually you need to show people you belong on the field.

A bloc of Browns fans have argued that it's impossible to get a fair assessment of Colt because he lacks talent around him. While that's a valid point, I don't consider it so simple. Colt can still control certain things. Certain things that he isn't currently doing. For example, his accuracy and ball placement have regressed. With his limitations in arm strength, he doesn't have much room for error in those departments. If he can't be an accurate passer in the short-to-intermediate range, his shot at succeeding is slim to none. Also, our wide receiver corps is getting hammered, and a lot of the criticism is justifiable, but Colt isn't helping them out. The best quarterbacks in the NFL make their receivers better. They throw with anticipation. They throw their guys open. Colt isn't doing either of those things. He's jittering in the pocket waiting for them to do all the work and gain separation. Separation is a different concept in the NFL from college. In college, when you hear about separation, it's often a receiver breaking completely free of his man and leaving his quarterback an easy throw. In pro ball, the windows are a lot tighter, so quarterbacks need to make more and more stick throws. Right now, Colt hasn't shown the capability to do that. If he doesn't improve, and I'm growing skeptical he does, then he needs to be replaced.

Regarding our other needs, on the offensive side of the ball, I think we need to makeover the right side of the offensive line with a couple maulers. A dynamic playmaker on the perimeter is a necessity, even though I'm optimistic concerning Greg Little's prospectus. Maybe add a shiftier runner to the stable to compliment our current backs. Defensively, our biggest need is an impact pass rusher. The young linemen have played well, but I don't think either defensive end profiles as a true difference-maker and stockpiling pass rushers is a smart strategy. I think we need to put at least another athletic, run-and-hit linebacker next to D'Qwell. I'm curiously watching Skrine's development. He has all the tools to be a legitimate starting cornerback in this league. If the free safety play doesn't pick up, that's also a need. Overall, we need to improve team athleticism and explosiveness. We were the most unathletic team in the NFL under Mangini. That needs to change. Obviously, all of those needs aren't going to be crossed off in a single off-season, but there's plenty of shopping to do for Browns management.

Brown Leader
11-28-2011, 11:59 PM
3. The Browns continue to stink against the AFC North. (http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_4793_Browns_Report%3A_Falling_Short_in_the_AFC_ North%2C_Again.html)
Since the AFC North was created during realignment in 2002, the Browns own a 14-42 record against the division. Worse yet, the Browns started off with a 7-11 record from 2002-2004. Therefore, the Browns are 7-31 since 2005 against the AFC North, with three wins of those wins coming in 2007. If the Browns get swept by the Baltimore Ravens and Pittsburgh Steelers, as they already were by the Bengals, the Browns will average one win per season against the division since 2005.
http://www.lostseed.com/extras/free-graphics/images/jesus-pictures/jesus-troubled-look.jpg

CDCB14
01-11-2012, 08:57 AM
Hey guys, Cowboys fan here. I guess Rob liked your secondary coach from when they worked together and he's been brought to Dallas. Is Henderson any good? Thanks.

Brown Leader
01-11-2012, 12:44 PM
Probably better than Campo. Helped develop Revis and Haden. Our secondary help up decently this year without much beyond Joe Haden-guess he's taken some credit for that.

keylime_5
01-11-2012, 02:22 PM
Henderson is a big get for Dallas. Gonna be sad to see him go. People in the know really thought he was a great DB coach.

CDCB14
01-12-2012, 12:12 AM
Thanks for the input guys. I saw you guys were 2nd against the past this year, but the two years prior to that it was 18 and 28th I believe. Any reason for the jump in production?

As a Cowboys fan I find it pretty funny and disturbing that the year after Rob Ryan leaves your passing defense was great, but with him it wasn't...

kalbears13
01-12-2012, 01:53 AM
Thanks for the input guys. I saw you guys were 2nd against the past this year, but the two years prior to that it was 18 and 28th I believe. Any reason for the jump in production?

As a Cowboys fan I find it pretty funny and disturbing that the year after Rob Ryan leaves your passing defense was great, but with him it wasn't...

Because why would you pass when you're playing the 30th ranked run defense?

fear the elf
01-12-2012, 03:32 PM
Because why would you pass when you're playing the 30th ranked run defense?

That's definitely got a lot to do with it but it should be pointed out that we were essentially just as bad at defending the run in '09 and '10, so some improvement definitely took place this year; just not sure how much...


Year :: Rk :: Att :: Att/G :: Yards :: Avg :: TD
2011 :: 30 :: 534 :: 33.4 :: 2,359 :: 4.4 :: 12
2010 :: 27 :: 505 :: 31.6 :: 2,070 :: 4.1 :: 7
2009 :: 28 :: 506 :: 31.6 :: 2,314 :: 4.6 :: 15