PDA

View Full Version : My Week 9 Thoughts


Shiver
11-05-2007, 04:58 PM
Top Stories

Adrian Peterson’s Assault on the Record Books

It is very difficult to put sports in perspective. All too often people are enslaved to the moment. It seems that every week you read or hear some superlatives regarding such and such player and/or performance being ‘one of the best of all time.’ Every week during the NFL season we all overanalyze and make assumptions based on one week’s performance. With all that being said I think Adrian Peterson’s game against the Chargers was the most impressive individual performance I have ever seen in football. In the NFL you will often see a changing of the guard moment, especially at the RB position. Barry Sanders walked away and Marshall Faulk became the best RB in the league, Faulk faded away and LaDainian Tomlinson came in and is a shoe-in for Canton, now we’ve seen the emergence of the next great RB. Adrian Peterson is doing things we have never seen before. I just hope he avoids fluke injuries and becomes an all-time great.

Patriots vs. Colts Aftermath

The hype this game got was unbelievable. I mentioned in my Peterson paragraph that it is very common for sports writers’ to go overboard. I think that was definitely the case with this game. Dr. Z of SI in particular posted some statements that I would deem 'overboard' regarding players in this game:

“(Wes Welker) Might be the greatest hot receiver, or blitz-control guy, who ever lived.”

“(Logan Mankins) the NFL's best guard.”

“(Asante Samuel) As close to a shutdown corner as the league has.”

“(Bob Sanders) A mini-Ray Lewis in Lewis' prime.”

That is a little too much anointing for my taste, and I didn’t even mention Tom Brady, Randy Moss, Peyton Manning, etc.

My first thought when Roosevelt Colvin caught the ball in the air after Peyton was hit by his blindside is “wow, I cannot believe the Patriots pulled this out.” They committed ghastly mistakes on both sides of the ball, they allowed Joseph Addai to run all over them, Brady looked somewhat mortal, and still they went into Indianapolis and beat the Colts. Now the Colts have to go into Foxboro in January to get to the Super Bowl, and I am convinced that is something they cannot do.

By the way: is it a coincidence that the presence of Randy Moss leads to a QB having his best individual season ever? Randall Cunningham, who prior to his ’98 season was an erratic passer, put up MVP statistics. Daunte Culpepper has been awful with Moss gone. Now Tom Brady is going to eviscerate Peyton Manning’s historic ’04 season. Even Jeff George had a great season in ’99. If Randy Moss wouldn’t have vanished into obscurity in Oakland would he have been considered the most dominant WR of all time?

“Thoughts” Analysis

Now that every team has played eight games I figured I should re-visit my pre-season column. A lot of good, but at the same time I missed on more than I would like.


“Indianapolis will not win the AFC South”

I was right about the Colts missing Tarik Glenn; however, I assumed that their defense was going to play poorly. They were starting a rookie UDFA nose tackle and have young players all over that side of the ball. The fact that they have played solid defense has shielded their LT position from the pressure of playing catch-up. In the game against Patriots we all saw the effects of not having a pro-bowl LT protecting Manning. The Colts, though, have not been in that situation enough for my prediction to be right. Tennessee has an outside shot, but when Garrard went down and Jacksonville lost to Indianapolis I knew that I most likely got this one wrong.

“Jay Cutler will establish himself as a top flight NFL QB for the next decade”

Jay Cutler has shown flashes of brilliance. He has led his team in tough situations to put his team in position to win or tie. He has a nice passer rating. I just didn’t anticipate Javon Walker and the O-Line to be injured. This may be a year too early. I was right that he was the best of the ’06 big three though.

“Mario Williams will become one of the best Defensive Ends in football”

He was already solid at the P.O.A as a rookie. So far he’s only improved. His pass rushing still needs a little more work, but it’s encouraging that he’s matched last year’s sack totals through half the season. If he finishes the season strong after the bye week I think this will be a good prediction.

“Vernon Davis will emerged as the only TE who can give Antonio Gates a run for his money”

Injuries and Alex Smith’s ineptitude have kept this one from coming true. At least he’s had back to back great games so this isn’t that bad. It’s hard to imagine him becoming an elite TE, production wise, until the 49ers fix their offensive woes. Right now Vernon Davis is their only bright spot on that side of the ball.

“Tom Brady is your 2007 NFL M.V.P”

I was dead on with this prediction. The additions of Moss, Stallworth, and Welker have shown exactly how great Tom Brady is. He has produced top-10 statistics, at the least, with mediocre at best weapons for years now. Now that he finally has weapons that his rival (Peyton Manning) has had he is going to annihilate Manning’s ’04 records.

“Jason Campbell and the Washington Redskins will be this year’s post-hype underrated team”


The Redskins defense is playing much better and right now the Redskins are in the wild-card chase. At the time I wrote this most people had them penciled in as the worst team in the NFC East and a six win team. Jason Campbell, however, won’t take the next step until he has competent receivers. He has yet to throw a TD pass to a WR. The Redskins have been plagued with drop passes and underachievement. If the Redskins finish above .500 I will count this as a ‘win.’

“The Bengals, unlike last year, will not underachieve”

This is my ugliest prediction. The Bengals have imploded. The defense has been weaker than I thought they would be, and the offense has struggled to have any semblance of consistency. I’ll notch this one as a loss for me.

“The Jets are this year’s Jaguars”

I couldn’t have been more right. The Jets had no business making the post-season last year, doing so on an easy schedule, and their record this year is indicative of that. The talent simply isn’t there.

“Rise of the …. Lions? That cannot be right!”

I feel really good about this one. Rod Marinelli has this team going in the right direction. With Kevin Jones back to give their offense balance and a defense that’s playing much better together, they look like they are only getting stronger as the season goes along. How many people thought they would be 6-2?

“Larry Johnson will not be considered an elite RB by year’s end”

This is another good prediction for me. His pass blocking, more importantly his effort, have been atrocious. He also has not shown the same anger and burst he’s had in years’ past. I think that with a mediocre O-Line, and complacency from a new contract, have contributed to an unspectacular season for Larry Johnson. Now he’s likely to miss a few games to an ankle injury.


Draft Coverage

Matt Ryan: exposed

To me college acclaim is not important. I could care less about the constant “Heisman debates” that everyone else seems to get engaged in. I am all about the NFL, and I have no qualms admitting that. I will tune into college football for big games and big prospects. When I saw Matt Ryan play very well against Georgia Tech I became a fan of his. So I was eager to see what he was made off when Boston College faced the “meat” of their schedule. Would he be Jay Cutler pt. 2 and play up to the level of his opponents? Well I think I know the answer to that question. Against Virginia Tech and Florida State he has quite frankly not played well. Games against top flight collegiate defenses are the easiest way to see what a QB prospect is made out of; can he handle the pass rush? Can he make the stick throws against fast defenses? It’s impossible to say that Matt Ryan hasn’t seen his stock drop with two lackluster performances.

PACKmanN
11-05-2007, 05:04 PM
no packers news this week.

bored of education
11-05-2007, 05:10 PM
I think Adrian Peterson is kinda good at football.

Geo
11-05-2007, 05:16 PM
“Indianapolis will not win the AFC South”

I was right about the Colts missing Tarik Glenn; however, I assumed that their defense was going to play poorly. They were starting a rookie UDFA nose tackle and have young players all over that side of the ball. The fact that they have played solid defense has shielded their LT position from the pressure of playing catch-up. In the game against Patriots we all saw the effects of not having a pro-bowl LT protecting Manning. The Colts, though, have not been in that situation enough for my prediction to be right. Tennessee has an outside shot, but when Garrard went down and Jacksonville lost to Indianapolis I knew that I most likely got this one wrong.
Goodness, you're reaching horribly with a lot of the above. They missed Tony Ugoh, case closed. Ugoh is a superior pass-protector and far superior run-blocker to Charlie Johnson.

Shiver
11-05-2007, 05:20 PM
It is easy to play LT when you are in the lead. If the Colts' defense was as bad as they were in '06 I think I would have been right. I miscalculated on how good/bad they were going to be.

Moses
11-05-2007, 05:21 PM
It is easy to play LT when you are in the lead. If the Colts' defense was as bad as they were in '06 I think I would have been right. I miscalculated on how good/bad they were going to be.

I still can't believe that defence is an effective unit.

Xenos
11-05-2007, 05:22 PM
Goodness, you're reaching horribly with a lot of the above. They missed Tony Ugoh, case closed. Ugoh is a superior pass-protector and far superior run-blocker to Charlie Johnson.
Ditto. If Marvin comes back for the rematch in January completely healthy, it should make it an even closer game. Heck, you guys were playing with Moorehead out there, and came pretty close.

Shiver
11-05-2007, 05:22 PM
I still can't believe that defence is an effective unit.

That makes two of us.

Freddy G
11-05-2007, 05:22 PM
K2>Vernon Davis

Once Gates falls off the hill those two are will most likely be head and shoulders above the rest of the league.

Shiver
11-05-2007, 05:23 PM
K2>Vernon Davis

Once Gates falls off the hill those two are will most likely be head and shoulders above the rest of the league.

If he can stay healthy man, if only then I would agree. I am still skeptical.

Xenos
11-05-2007, 05:24 PM
I still can't believe that defence is an effective unit.

It's effective because of its speed and good tackling. It's hard to run on them because everyone just gangs up on the ball carrier until he gives up running. How long they can sustain that during cold weather is another question entirely.

And Moss is just the ultimate bail out of Brady. Some of the things he does with underthrown passes is incredible.

Moses
11-05-2007, 05:26 PM
It's effective because of its speed and good tackling. It's hard to run on them because everyone just gangs up on the ball carrier until he gives up running. How long they can sustain that during cold weather is another question entirely.

It's just weird that they're undersized at every level and use a lot of techniques that seem like they would make them very susceptible to the run (i.e. pass rushing upfield without gap control). Still, they manage to make it work so more power to them.

Geo
11-05-2007, 05:26 PM
The Colts don't pass the ball? Opponents haven't pass rushed against Tony Ugoh? Read what you're writing, Shiver. You talk like the Colts have built-up two-touchdown-leads before the first quarter ended.

The Colts missed Ugoh and a third receiver worth throwing to, once Gonzalez dislocated his thumb on the first play of the game. The Patriots made sure Dallas Clark wasn't going to beat them again, and Wayne couldn't make all the plays by himself. Aaron Moorehead can't catch and can't stay in bounds when he does; other than that, he's great though.

Xenos
11-05-2007, 05:28 PM
If he can stay healthy man, if only then I would agree. I am still skeptical.

Yeah that's one thing that separates Gates from the other two. He has stayed relatively healthy his entire career so far.
Plus it helps that he can run such precise routes for TE. Heck, he's one of the best receivers right now. Look at what he did to Bailey in the Denver game.

Speaking of which, I'm just agast at how terrible Norv used him in the Vikings game.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-05-2007, 05:38 PM
K2>Vernon Davis

Once Gates falls off the hill those two are will most likely be head and shoulders above the rest of the league.

Jason Witten and Jeremy Shockey will still be better TEs than K2 or Davis

PoopSandwich
11-05-2007, 05:38 PM
If he can stay healthy man, if only then I would agree. I am still skeptical.

Stay healthy? If the man was healthy... Oh man...

If his leg doesn't fall of his body then he will be fine ;)

Draft King
11-05-2007, 06:04 PM
Funny how you were dead on when it comes to some of these, and then completely off with the Bengals. And to your Randy Moss question, yes, I do believe he would be considered the most dominant WR of all-time had he not disappeared in Oakland, although it's really not all him to blame.

nvot9
11-05-2007, 06:08 PM
I thought that was a really good write up, good work. I look forward to your weekly analysis's every Monday...

San Diego Chicken
11-05-2007, 06:12 PM
Everyone will agree and disagree with a level of "annointing" according to their biases, and it evolves and changes over time. Every year we will annoint a new group of guys and sleep on another group. The next year, that slept on group becomes the overhyped group, new players get annointed, and new sleepers emerge. The cream of the crop rise to the top and have staying power. Writers (and message board users) all want to use hyperbole and strong comparisons just in case they are correct, they can look back and say "Look at me! I'm smart, I nailed that". Many people on this forum are the same way.

neko4
11-05-2007, 06:15 PM
It disgusted me the stupidity of people on this site calling the skins a bad team during the offseason. I hope they sweep the cowboys

yourfavestoner
11-05-2007, 06:16 PM
I dunno why people think Marvin Harrison will make that much of a difference when these teams play again in the postseason. In 14 postseason appearances, Harrison has had one 100 yard receiving game and two touchdowns. And those all came in one game in a 41-10 mercking of Denver in the dome.

soybean
11-05-2007, 06:16 PM
The thing I worry about is if Adrian Peterson will be able to keep it up. Wouldn't you rather him have a good rookie year but not great one? there's really no area for improvement now. There's only one way to go, down.

Someone mentioned that we shouldn't get our hopes up because the previous record holder was jamal lewis and before that, corey dillon.

Auron
11-05-2007, 06:23 PM
The Patriots won ugly on the road, and made the plays they needed to in the closing stages of the game. I too was surprised by their early struggles, but then again I think the Colts are every bit as good as them and have an argument for maybe being the better team. They were playing without Marvin Harrison, Tony Ugoh, Freddie Keiaho, (and partially without Anthony Gonzalez) and they still were able to build a 10 point lead at one point in the 4th quarter. Coming into this season I don't think anyone outside of Colts fans expected that Defense too be this good, they run a very basic scheme but they execute it so well.. just so much team speed on Defense, they break on the football so well, and swarm to the ball carriers. They can generate so much pressure of the edges with their speed rushers, that even Elite O-lines will struggle blocking them. (First time this season I've seen New England's Tackle duo struggle that much)

Moving on though, I still have to give the Patriots credit for toughing it out and making the necessary plays to win. I did think they had some questionable calls go against them, but they got through it. If Belichick makes a serious run for the Undefeated season I really think they have the legit shot to make it. In closing I think barring any unforeseen circumstances we are guaranteed to see this match up again in the AFC playoffs although this time it will most likely be at Foxborough.

neko4
11-05-2007, 06:24 PM
3000 yards for AP?

P-L
11-05-2007, 06:31 PM
3000 yards for AP?
Absolutely not. He "only" has 1242 total yards. He'll need to average 220 total yards per game from here on out. 2500 total yards doesn't seem out of the question.

Dolfan2788
11-05-2007, 06:31 PM
Daunte Culpepper had his best season when Moss was hurt for the majority of the year.

Point is taken though. Moss makes every QB look like a HOFer.

He would have done the same with the Raiders had he had enough time to get slightly downfield and a QB had time to throw it.

Borat
11-05-2007, 06:36 PM
Ugh, Vernon Davis is very overrated. He's a guarantee for at least 1 dropped pass and 1 false start penalty per game. His hands are too average to make him elite.

soybean
11-05-2007, 07:03 PM
Ugh, Vernon Davis is very overrated. He's a guarantee for at least 1 dropped pass and 1 false start penalty per game. His hands are too average to make him elite.

seriously, he's one of the if not the most overrated player on this board. He's a physical freak and has all the potential in the world but he hasn't done anything yet to warrant this "superstar" status this board seems to give him.

yourfavestoner
11-05-2007, 07:09 PM
seriously, he's one of the if not the most overrated player on this board. He's a physical freak and has all the potential in the world but he hasn't done anything yet to warrant this "superstar" status this board seems to give him.

That's because this is a draft board, and I don't believe the people on here watch nearly as much football as they say they do. People on here rank players by:
1. draft stock/athleticism
2. Sportscenter highlights
3. regurgitation of information they've heard/watched/read
4. analyzing (and I use that term loosely) of games they watch, which is usually their team, which leads to them vastly overrating their own players, which we like to call "Homerism"

benchod
11-05-2007, 07:28 PM
I dunno why people think Marvin Harrison will make that much of a difference when these teams play again in the postseason. In 14 postseason appearances, Harrison has had one 100 yard receiving game and two touchdowns. And those all came in one game in a 41-10 mercking of Denver in the dome.


To add to that, the Patriots also played their worst game ever in terms of penalties, setting a franchise record for most yards lost due to penalties.

You can make the Colts without Marvin/Ugoh argument, but you can also say that the Patriots won't play such a sloppy game again. It goes both ways, but in the end, the Patriots beat the Colts on their home turf.

Addict
11-05-2007, 07:33 PM
To add to that, the Patriots also played their worst game ever in terms of penalties, setting a franchise record for most yards lost due to penalties.

You can make the Colts without Marvin/Ugoh argument, but you can also say that the Patriots won't play such a sloppy game again. It goes both ways, but in the end, the Patriots beat the Colts on their home turf.

Yes they did. In the end, it's a notch for them in the win column, which is all that matters.

brat316
11-05-2007, 07:41 PM
will AD hold single season record at half way point he has the most rush yard 1000 and somthing. Could we see 2000 rush yards by the end of the season. Also take in mind that AD is just taking the punishment and will not go down, remember Cadalic 2 years back, was tearing it up taking hits and keep on trucking, but then those hits came back and the injuries started to set in, same things happens to AD. I see him going for 2000, because of Taylor a more reliable back up, and give AD breaks after his long runs.

B-Dawk
11-05-2007, 07:48 PM
Absolutely not. He "only" has 1242 total yards. He'll need to average 220 total yards per game from here on out. 2500 total yards doesn't seem out of the question.

how many return yards does he have?

neko4
11-05-2007, 07:50 PM
VD just needs to become consistent to become elite IMO. He has all the speed and strength in the world

mqtirishfan
11-05-2007, 07:54 PM
VD just needs to become consistent to become elite IMO. He has all the speed and strength in the world

Dude, that **** is everywhere.

Shane P. Hallam
11-05-2007, 08:05 PM
I love you Shiver, even though you won't play Halo with me anymore because I suck. AP MAY break the single season rookie rushing record, but he still has a long way to go to be the best in the NFL IMO.

Mr. Stiller
11-05-2007, 10:41 PM
To add to that, the Patriots also played their worst game ever in terms of penalties, setting a franchise record for most yards lost due to penalties.

You can make the Colts without Marvin/Ugoh argument, but you can also say that the Patriots won't play such a sloppy game again. It goes both ways, but in the end, the Patriots beat the Colts on their home turf.

Which there should be a look-over. Frankly I'm glad the Refs called in favor of the Colts.. but that Hobbs PI call was Bunk. Wayne tackled him and got the PI.

They need to start calling Randy Moss on his PI's. He pushes off a lot and gets away with it alot.

Geo
11-05-2007, 10:55 PM
Just to add to my earlier point, ever since Tony Ugoh went down to a neck stinger or whatever the injury is in the Jacksonville game, Peyton Manning has faced constant pressure from his blind side since back-up left/right tackle Charlie Johnson stepped in. It would have been worse against Carolina if they weren't so inept at rushing the passer, but they still delivered some pressure on Manning nonetheless. Johnson gave up more sacks on Manning in one game against the Patriots then Ugoh has given up on the season so far.

Shiver
11-06-2007, 12:28 AM
Daunte Culpepper had his best season when Moss was hurt for the majority of the year.

Point is taken though. Moss makes every QB look like a HOFer.

He would have done the same with the Raiders had he had enough time to get slightly downfield and a QB had time to throw it.

Culpepper's biggest games that season were with Moss however. His stats in the games when Moss was hurt were average.

Ugh, Vernon Davis is very overrated. He's a guarantee for at least 1 dropped pass and 1 false start penalty per game. His hands are too average to make him elite.

The sad thing is he's the 49ers only decent offensive player right now.

DChess
11-06-2007, 12:38 AM
Jason Witten and Jeremy Shockey will still be better TEs than K2 or Davis

not at all. their is no way you would pick any of those guys over K2 or Davis if both are healthy

Borat
11-06-2007, 12:38 AM
The sad thing is he's the 49ers only decent offensive player right now.

Ashley Lelie FTW! :)

bearsfan_51
11-06-2007, 12:45 AM
Kellen Winslow is the best tight end in football. I will scream this from the rooftop until non-Browns fans start recognizing. Is he a douche? Sure. But that doesn't change the fact. Braylon Edwards is very good, but Witten has so many other people on that offense to spread out the defense, even last year when the Browns offense was terrible Winslow dominated.

And Shockey? Come on...he's just a poor man's Greg Olsen.;)

Mr. Stiller
11-06-2007, 12:56 AM
not at all. their is no way you would pick any of those guys over K2 or Davis if both are healthy

Depends on what you want from your TE.

Some people actually want a TE that can block.. In that case K2 is out of the question.

Witten, Shockey, Heap and Miller.. along with Gonzo if he's still kicking would be there.

There's more to a TE than just "receiving", there's just no stats for blocking.

Man_Of_Steel
11-06-2007, 12:59 AM
Depends on what you want from your TE.

Some people actually want a TE that can block.. In that case K2 is out of the question.

Witten, Shockey, Heap and Miller.. along with Gonzo if he's still kicking would be there.

There's more to a TE than just "receiving", there's just no stats for blocking.

So given the choice you would choose Shockey over Winslow? Thats hard to believe.

Shiver
11-06-2007, 01:01 AM
The TE position has evolved to a point where a large segment of offenses use them as slot receivers. Blocking is no larger a necessity for the position. As long as you have a blocking specific TE (Heiden, Manumaleuna) to compliment your dynamic receiving TE (Winslow, Gates).

Moses
11-06-2007, 01:09 AM
Kellen Winslow is the best tight end in football. I will scream this from the rooftop until non-Browns fans start recognizing. Is he a douche? Sure. But that doesn't change the fact. Braylon Edwards is very good, but Witten has so many other people on that offense to spread out the defense, even last year when the Browns offense was terrible Winslow dominated.

And Shockey? Come on...he's just a poor man's Greg Olsen.;)

Kellen Winslow over Antonio Gates? I can't buy that at this point.

Mr. Stiller
11-06-2007, 01:12 AM
So given the choice you would choose Shockey over Winslow? Thats hard to believe.

Depending on my team, it's very possible.

Not a great Receiver, Shockey is still very dominant as a short to mid receiver and red zone threat.

If you have good enough receivers, I'd rather have a TE that could block.. IE Steelers..

In Clevelands and San Francisco's case, I can see why they grabbed those guys. Provide a mismatch as a receiver. Davis can atleast block. Gates is the better blocker between K2 and himself.

I'd take Gates first.. Davis Second..

But again it depends on my roster.

Last year for the Steelers I wouldn't have taken K2 or Gates over Miller, because either one of those two aren't nearly as good as Miller blocking and that likely would've resulted in about 10-15 more sacks against Ben

Man_Of_Steel
11-06-2007, 01:13 AM
Right now Id have to rate the top 5 TEs like so...

1. Gates
2. Winslow
3. Miller
4. Witten
5. Clark

Granted it is team scheme and philosophy dependent thats my five.

Mr. Stiller
11-06-2007, 01:18 AM
Right now Id have to rate the top 5 TEs like so...

1. Gates
2. Winslow
3. Miller
4. Witten
5. Clark

Granted it is team scheme and philosophy dependent thats my five.

Not a fan of Shockey? Gonzalez?

You're going to get blasted for having Heath Miller top 3.

Man_Of_Steel
11-06-2007, 01:20 AM
Not a fan of Shockey? Gonzalez?

You're going to get blasted for having Heath Miller top 3.

Just because Gonzo isnt in my top 5 dosent mean Im not a fan, I like Gonzo but hes no longer top 5 in my opinion. As for Shockey, no Im not a fan I find him terribly overrated.

Modano
11-06-2007, 01:50 AM
Right now Id have to rate the top 5 TEs like so...

1. Gates
2. Winslow
3. Miller
4. Witten
5. Clark

Granted it is team scheme and philosophy dependent thats my five.

Yeah, Heath Miller is a better and more productive TE than Jason Witten. Please.

BlindSite
11-06-2007, 01:51 AM
That makes two of us.

Chemistry is far more important than big names.

Almost everyone on that defense would be unseated by players on say the bears defense, but chemistry wise, there's no team playing better football than the Colts D right now.

bearsfan_51
11-06-2007, 01:52 AM
Kellen Winslow over Antonio Gates? I can't buy that at this point.
I like Gates but I've never been overwhelmed by him the way I am with Winslow. Gates is a very very very very good player, but he's not a gamechanger, nor is he the best offensive player on his team.

It's a lot easier to get open as a tight end when the linebackers have to constantly worry about what LT is doing.

bearsfan_51
11-06-2007, 01:56 AM
Right now Id have to rate the top 5 TEs like so...

1. Gates
2. Winslow
3. Miller
4. Witten
5. Clark

Granted it is team scheme and philosophy dependent thats my five.
Desmond Clark??

nrk
11-06-2007, 02:49 AM
Desmond Clark??

Hopefully he means Dallas Clark

d34ng3l021
11-06-2007, 02:59 AM
Damn man. No Falcon news. You have to promote the newly breakout players in Roddy White and Michael Boley (kind of. He was all over the field last year as well, but this year, even more).

yourfavestoner
11-06-2007, 03:18 AM
People on this board overrate Gates' blocking ability.

diabsoule
11-06-2007, 06:54 AM
I agree whole-heartedly about Matt Ryan. I think he is vastly overrated.

BPhilb
11-06-2007, 07:15 AM
Right now Id have to rate the top 5 TEs like so...

1. Gates
2. Winslow
3. Miller
4. Witten
5. Clark

Granted it is team scheme and philosophy dependent thats my five.

I find any list without Gonzalez laughable. The guy has been a beast with no receiving help. This year with the addition of Dwayne Bowe he's finally getting a little room to play with and is carrying the KC offense. It's all a moot point though, Chase Coffman will lead this list in about 4 years.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-06-2007, 08:29 AM
not at all. their is no way you would pick any of those guys over K2 or Davis if both are healthy

i most certainly would. Davis and K2 have crazy physical tools, but as TEs they still don't compare to witten and shockey. Witten is a better route runner, has better hands and is a far superior blocker. Shockey is so much hetter as a blocker it's rediculous, plus while kw may be a soldier shockey's a freaking warrior.

Sniper
11-06-2007, 08:42 AM
I dunno why people think Marvin Harrison will make that much of a difference when these teams play again in the postseason. In 14 postseason appearances, Harrison has had one 100 yard receiving game and two touchdowns. And those all came in one game in a 41-10 mercking of Denver in the dome.

Thank you!!!!!!!

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-06-2007, 08:43 AM
Kellen Winslow is the best tight end in football. I will scream this from the rooftop until non-Browns fans start recognizing. Is he a douche? Sure. But that doesn't change the fact. Braylon Edwards is very good, but Witten has so many other people on that offense to spread out the defense, even last year when the Browns offense was terrible Winslow dominated.

And Shockey? Come on...he's just a poor man's Greg Olsen.;)

Winslow is one of the worst blocking tight ends in the league witten and shock are two of the best blockers in the league so I'd perfer either over winslow.

art vandelay
11-06-2007, 08:45 AM
The Bills never make Shiver's thoughts...(frown)

Sniper
11-06-2007, 08:46 AM
Winslow is one of the worst blocking tight ends in the league witten and shock are two of the best blockers in the league so I'd perfer either over winslow.

QFT......Winslow is essentially a slower receiver....TEs should block and catch.

And Borat, give Davis some time. He's gonna be sooooooooooooo nasty once he finds a pair of hands on Ebay.

draftguru151
11-06-2007, 08:55 AM
Winslow is 9th in receiving yards and #1 for TEs at 15.6 ypc and is on pace to break Gonzalez record for yards in a season for a TE, at 20 less catches. Just thought some people might find that interesting. Winslow also had more catches last year than Gates with one leg.

Also Ryan wasn't amazing against FSU but he is getting trashed a bit too much. He made some great passes in the pocket and made some great runs on the run too. Showed great pocket presence. There was one play where he was scrambling to his left and threw a laser to the left sideline for a 10 yard gain. Yea he made mistakes and threw some passes he shouldn't have, but that really is nothing new for Ryan. If anyone got exposed the past 2 weeks, it's Gosder Cherilus, not Matt Ryan.

draftguru151
11-06-2007, 08:58 AM
seriously? people are discussing vernon davis as if he's one of the best te's in the league right now? some of you need to have your head checked.

But he ran a 4.3!!!!!

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-06-2007, 09:00 AM
QFT......Winslow is essentially a slower receiver....TEs should block and catch.

And Borat, give Davis some time. He's gonna be sooooooooooooo nasty once he finds a pair of hands on Ebay.

winslow's great for what the browns ask of him. I just perfer complete TEs

PoopSandwich
11-06-2007, 09:52 AM
[QUOTE=SNIPER26;712443]QFT......Winslow is essentially a slower receiver....

QUOTE]

That creates missmatches and is probably the biggest part to our offense because of the attention he commands ESPECIALLY in the red zone.

I would say he was the biggest part of our offense, but everyone knows the line is the most important.

bigbluedefense
11-06-2007, 10:12 AM
Food for thought:

If GB didn't choke against the lowly Bears, they'd be undefeated right now...with no run game.

Its like the rules of football that we've known for years are being rewritten in front of our eyes. Last year, the team with the worst rush defense in the league wins the SB, now this year we have a 7-1 team that can't run for its life.

Geo
11-06-2007, 10:20 AM
Well, if they didn't fluke wins against the Eagles, Redskins, and Broncos, they'd be 4-4 right now.

bigbluedefense
11-06-2007, 10:21 AM
How about those Bills? If it wasn't for 2 chokejobs, they'd be 6-2 right now. Theyre a dangerous 4-4 ballclub.

bigbluedefense
11-06-2007, 10:22 AM
Well, if they didn't fluke wins against the Eagles, Redskins, and Broncos, they'd be 4-4 right now.

thats very true as well. do you see a 2nd half collapse?

Man_Of_Steel
11-06-2007, 10:25 AM
Desmond Clark??

Dallas Clark.

Geo
11-06-2007, 10:29 AM
No, I don't think so. I think the Packers will win the NFC North actually.

Here's their remaining schedule: Min, Car, @Det, @Dal, Oak, @StL, @Chi, Det. The game at Detroit is on a short week, being a Thanksgiving game, and the Dallas game is actually also a Thursday game the next week. But those two games strike me as the most difficult, plus I think the Packers have finally settled on a runningback with Ryan Grant.

The one big thing I'd be worried about is Favre in the playoffs. He could be so desperate and anxious to make plays and advance further, it might hurt him actually.

P-L
11-06-2007, 11:01 AM
Mark Schlereth (I think) believes that the Lions will overtake the Packers and win the NFC North. I honestly don't see it happening. They have a much better defense and an easier schedule.

CannedToast
11-06-2007, 12:12 PM
1. Gates
2a) Winslow
2b) Witten
4. Gonzalez
5. Clark

Edit*

Actually, with Ben Watson, Miller, Shockey, Teh Crump, etc, I say all that matters is Gates is 1, Winslow, Witten, and Gonzo are next, and then there's a group of really good TE's, but not quite as good as the above group.

Geo
11-06-2007, 12:15 PM
Mark Schlereth (I think) believes that the Lions will overtake the Packers and win the NFC North. I honestly don't see it happening. They have a much better defense and an easier schedule.
Well, the Lions are just a game back (6-2) with two games against the Packers remaining. They have the opportunity before them, if they can capitalize.

yourfavestoner
11-06-2007, 12:15 PM
No, I don't think so. I think the Packers will win the NFC North actually.

Here's their remaining schedule: Min, Car, @Det, @Dal, Oak, @StL, @Chi, Det. The game at Detroit is on a short week, being a Thanksgiving game, and the Dallas game is actually also a Thursday game the next week. But those two games strike me as the most difficult, plus I think the Packers have finally settled on a runningback with Ryan Grant.

The one big thing I'd be worried about is Favre in the playoffs. He could be so desperate and anxious to make plays and advance further, it might hurt him actually.

I'd start worrying about November and December. Green Bay is setting themselves up for a rude awakening if they're expecting Brett to throw it 35 times a game in the Lambeau cold.

Addict
11-06-2007, 12:19 PM
Well, the Lions are just a game back (6-2) with two games against the Packers remaining. They have the opportunity before them, if they can capitalize.

scary thing is it's actually possible, I'm not saying likely, just possible, the Lions manage to beat the packers at least once (when they're @ford field).

Geo
11-06-2007, 12:24 PM
Well, the Lions travel on the road to Arizona this week I believe, not sure about next week, and then have the Packers at home for Thanksgiving. If they can win a second road game in a row this Sunday, and win that Packers game at home on Thanksgiving, doing that and coming out of Thanksgiving with a 9-2 or 8-3 record can really catapult that team for the remainder of the season. Absolutely.

Jughead10
11-06-2007, 12:25 PM
Well, the Lions travel on the road to Arizona this week I believe, not sure about next week, and then have the Packers at home for Thanksgiving. If they can win a second road game in a row this Sunday, and win that Packers game at home on Thanksgiving, doing that and coming out of Thanksgiving with a 9-2 or 8-3 record can really catapult that team for the remainder of the season. Absolutely.

They have the Giants at home between the Cards and Pack.

Addict
11-06-2007, 12:30 PM
They have the Giants at home between the Cards and Pack.

I don't think we can beat the pack and the giants, I think with A LOT of effort, a bit of luck and a bad performance on their part we might beat them, my guess fo our record in three weeks: 7-4

Geo
11-06-2007, 12:31 PM
Good to know, and I'd pick the Giants in that game myself (then again I haven't shown the Lions much love in picking them this season). I still think the Giants are the best team in the NFC.

But it's a definite plus for the Lions that that match-up is in the home dome, the defense seems markedly improved/effective there this season.

yodabear
11-06-2007, 12:39 PM
The Packers play the Rams, that is a guaranteed loss right there.

Shiver
11-06-2007, 12:46 PM
I am pretty sure Detroit will be able to split with Green Bay. Brett Favre has had struggles against the Lions in the past in Detroit. If their defense continues playing well they could make a plays on Favre.

Xenos
11-06-2007, 01:33 PM
People on this board overrate Gates' blocking ability.

He's a better pass blocker than he is a run blocker.

bigbluedefense
11-06-2007, 05:13 PM
Hey Yoda, when I checked nfl.com for the Rams record, it didn't even say 0-7, it just said "SUCKS" next to St. Louis.

Haha, i just wanted to break Yoda's balls. Im here for you brother, if you need a hug, im here.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-06-2007, 05:56 PM
I think the lions will struggle with the giants and packers, both defenses get pressure and can manhandle the lions oline.

bearsfan_51
11-06-2007, 06:02 PM
I am pretty sure Detroit will be able to split with Green Bay. Brett Favre has had struggles against the Lions in the past in Detroit. If their defense continues playing well they could make a plays on Favre.
The Tampa 2 in general plays well against Favre because if you play off the ball long enough in the secondary and get in his face from the d-line he'll make a bad decision and throw a pick or two.

Moses
11-06-2007, 06:22 PM
The Tampa 2 in general plays well against Favre because if you play off the ball long enough in the secondary and get in his face from the d-line he'll make a bad decision and throw a pick or two.

More importantly than that is that the Packers can't run the ball. If you let a team sit back in 2 deep coverage all game because you can't run the ball you're not going to be as effective. That's why I guarantee McCarthy will give the Lions a nice healthy dose of whatever scrub runningback they have healthy. :D

yodabear
11-06-2007, 07:18 PM
Hey Yoda, when I checked nfl.com for the Rams record, it didn't even say 0-7, it just said "SUCKS" next to St. Louis.

Haha, i just wanted to break Yoda's balls. Im here for you brother, if you need a hug, im here.

Ur a good hugger, if u or I didn't have balls, I could see this working out. But I have Xiomera and her sexy little ass.

yourfavestoner
11-06-2007, 08:33 PM
Yoda is, has, and always will be my favorite poster on this board.

yodabear
11-06-2007, 08:47 PM
Yoda is, has, and always will be my favorite poster on this board.

I am the Paris Hilton of NFLDC.

Borat
11-06-2007, 08:51 PM
I am the Paris Hilton of NFLDC.

"One Night in Yodachu" .... should be a top seller.

yodabear
11-06-2007, 08:53 PM
"One Night in Yodachu" .... should be a top seller.

It already is.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-06-2007, 09:07 PM
Yodachu should join an actual NFL team, not the rams or phins, as head cheerleader/locker room ***** for the players.

neko4
11-06-2007, 09:13 PM
people seem to forget the lions cant run the ball well either. So i think theyll have a bad road record in nov and december

LonghornsLegend
11-06-2007, 10:19 PM
people seem to forget the lions cant run the ball well either. So i think theyll have a bad road record in nov and december

That hasnt been really true as of lately, Jones is a beast in the Martz offense, and they have been running the ball alot more the past 3 weeks, hence the drop off in Roy Williams stats

yourfavestoner
11-06-2007, 10:30 PM
people seem to forget the lions cant run the ball well either. So i think theyll have a bad road record in nov and december

Kevin Jones says hello.

diabsoule
11-06-2007, 10:39 PM
It already is.

I have several.

Shiver
11-07-2007, 05:46 AM
people seem to forget the lions cant run the ball well either. So i think theyll have a bad road record in nov and december

So says the Packers fan.... :rolleyes:

Besides the Lions' got Kevin Jones back, he's the 2nd best RB in the division. Kevin Jones has notched at least 70 yards, on good YPC, for the last three weeks.

thule
11-07-2007, 05:58 AM
So says the Packers fan.... :rolleyes:

Besides the Lions' got Kevin Jones back, he's the 2nd best RB in the division. Kevin Jones has notched at least 70 yards, on good YPC, for the last three weeks.

Not only that...but when you have 3 WR's to spread the defense out...it makes life a lot easier on KJ who really saw a lot of 8 man fronts when he was healthy do to the inept qb play in the past. Detroit is a prime example of a team that can pass to set up the run.

Shiver
11-07-2007, 06:01 AM
The only trepidations I have about the Lions' playoff chances is the health of Jon Kitna. If he can avoid injury I think they are a lock.

Shiver
11-07-2007, 06:05 AM
seriously? people are discussing vernon davis as if he's one of the best te's in the league right now? some of you need to have your head checked.

I would say right now that Vernon Davis is somewhere between (better than) Ben Watson and (worse than) Kellen Winslow.

Addict
11-07-2007, 06:23 AM
The only trepidations I have about the Lions' playoff chances is the health of Jon Kitna. If he can avoid injury I think they are a lock.

Really? there's a lot of tough games coming up... plus the pack looks like a more rounded team, so I'm not sure. Maybe (MAYBE) a wildcard...

PoopSandwich
11-07-2007, 07:01 AM
I would say right now that Vernon Davis is somewhere between (better than) Ben Watson and (worse than) Kellen Winslow.

Every tight end is worse than Kellen Winslow ;)

P-L
11-07-2007, 07:14 AM
132 rushing yards per game since Kevin Jones took over as the stater.

Jones stats in the same time frame: 252 yards (84 yards per game), 4.6 yards per carry, 2 TD

Yeah, the Lions can't run the ball at all...

Addict
11-07-2007, 07:19 AM
132 rushing yards per game since Kevin Jones took over as the stater.

Jones stats in the same time frame: 252 yards (84 yards per game), 4.6 yards per carry, 2 TD

Yeah, the Lions can't run the ball at all...

haahaha didn't tactica have something like that in his sig at one point? "the point isn't we can't run, but that we choose not to do it so much"

Auron
11-07-2007, 07:21 AM
132 rushing yards per game since Kevin Jones took over as the stater.

Jones stats in the same time frame: 252 yards (84 yards per game), 4.6 yards per carry, 2 TD

Yeah, the Lions can't run the ball at all...

IMO the doubt is not if the Lions can run the ball.. (Kevin Jones is a very effective downhill runner and is starting to really come on) but the concern was whether or not Martz would actually stay the course with the running game. The knock on him is that he gets too "Pass Happy" in his play calling, and at times neglects the run.

And as we've seen the past few games that has not been the case lately. Martz is being more patient with the run game, and has taken the opportunities. Which is maybe why Kitna's numbers have somewhat dropped, but they are winning games.

Geo
11-07-2007, 09:57 AM
I'm inclined to believe Rod Marinelli is an influencing factor in the Lions' current commitment to running the ball. And good for the team, it's good to see. Hopefully it continues.

Honestly, I didn't think Jones would be back to full health right now or maybe even this season, I'm glad to see it. I've always liked KJ, he's just needed to stay healthy.

osi+ap=allshallperish
11-07-2007, 10:33 AM
I stilldon't trust that oline to protect kitna from more talented pass rushing defenses like gb, NYG and dallas.