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nvot9
11-08-2007, 03:30 PM
I'm just wondering why he isn't being considered a top talent? I mean he's putting up some ridiculous numbers and doing it against some very, very good defenses such as South Florida, UConn, West Virginia....and Navy and Maryland are not awful teams either. He's got good size and power as well, if he can post a sub 4.5 40 time I don't understand why he can't be rated ahead of someone like Slaton and be the number 2 back behind McFadden. Is there any reason specifically why he's not being as highly touted as I feel he should be? Or maybe he is and I just don't know of it?

Race for the Heisman
11-08-2007, 03:47 PM
Same reason as Mike Hart. He totes the rock a ridiculous amount of times because Mike Teel is, well, Mike Teel. Teams don't want to invest that much in a guy who might fall apart with nagging injuries. That aside, he doesn't have top end speed, which isn't a necessity but it does hurt his value a bit. His vision and ball protection are great, and he's pretty elusive and good at avoiding tackles, but the wear and speed factors make teams wary/disinclined to invest that much money in a guy who might not live up to the team's hopes.

ironman4579
11-08-2007, 04:03 PM
I wouldn't necessarily say he's got good size. Both he and Mike Hart are basically the same in terms of size, and that's one reason Hart isn't considered a better prospect. Speed wise I'd say the same thing. Rice is likely slightly faster than Hart, but I still think he runs around a 4.5. I also wouldn't really say those are "very, very good defenses." He's been held to 2.8 YPC against Cincinnati, and under 100 against Maryland and Norfolk State(although he did average 6.0 YPC against Norfolk and likely only played like the first half)

And as has been previously mentioned, both he and Hart just get run into the ground by their respective teams. Rice is currently on pace to have 870 carries after his Junior year. That's just a ton of a carries for 3 years. Do I personally have a problem with it? No, but NFL teams are going to be wary of taking a guy high that has that much wear and tear on him.

For both Hart and Rice I see the 3rd round, with a very outside shot if they run faster than expected at the combine of the late 2nd, but even that's a stretch IMO.

Jonny
11-08-2007, 04:12 PM
if he can post a sub 4.5 40 time

There's your answer.

That being said, he looks a little faster this year. He's actually been better I think - faster, better hands, better pass protection. Earlier in the year we were having some problems at RG and FB, he's had more running room since then. Just because he's a third round pick doesn't mean he won't be successful in the NFL.

I disagree about Teel. He was playing great before his thumb injury. He played well last weekend when he was healthier. Schiano is just really conservative, we have good backups that he won't use.

Rice is only 5-7, but he is built like the proverbial **** house. I think the height actually helps him, but too many times have I seen him break a 20+ yard run only to be caught from behind by a defender before he can score a TD.

It does puzzle me why Rice gets so much attention on our team though. Britt looks like a first round pick next year, and Zuttah/Sosa will possibly be drafted higher than Rice this year...maybe Greene too.

BuddyCHRIST
11-08-2007, 04:15 PM
5'7"? I thought he was more in the 5'9" range. He doesnt look that small, anyways it just boils down to lack of top notch physical tools. His size and speed are ok, but not great.

ironman4579
11-08-2007, 04:18 PM
Both Hart and Rice are listed by their respective teams at 5'9". Personally I think Hart and possibly Rice could come in at just over 5'9", but there's also certainly potential that they could both come in at closer to 5'8". And as was just said, just because they'll likely be 3rd round picks at best based on measurables, it doesn't mean they can't be successful.

Travis 24
11-08-2007, 05:05 PM
Rice is so thick though...

Why is a 4.5 frowned upon?..lol..Thats still fast as hell. Breakaway speed is overrated..how many guys had breakaway speed, that flopped in the NFL?

He should be a first round pick...I think he'll measure in at 5'8" 210 lbs, which isn't small by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think he'll run a sub 4.5...Maybe in the 4.50-4.55 area, which is whats expected of him. He will KILL in the workouts though.

The guy has all you look for...he almost never fumbles, has incredible vision, has proven he can catch the ball, and can pass block..He's a 3-down back...those guys tend to go pretty early. I have him as the 3rd best back, juniors included.

ironman4579
11-08-2007, 05:22 PM
Rice is so thick though...

Why is a 4.5 frowned upon?..lol..Thats still fast as hell. Breakaway speed is overrated..how many guys had breakaway speed, that flopped in the NFL?

He should be a first round pick...I think he'll measure in at 5'8" 210 lbs, which isn't small by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think he'll run a sub 4.5...Maybe in the 4.50-4.55 area, which is whats expected of him. He will KILL in the workouts though.

The guy has all you look for...he almost never fumbles, has incredible vision, has proven he can catch the ball, and can pass block..He's a 3-down back...those guys tend to go pretty early. I have him as the 3rd best back, juniors included.

And that Rutgers sig doesn't make you seem a little biased or anything. Hey, I'm a Michigan fan, I admit I'm biased towards Hart. 4.5 isn't necessarily frowned upon, but it is by teams when the player in question is also undersized like both Rice and Hart are. I personally don't think 5'8"-5'9" 200+ is necessarily undersized, but I don't think you can act like that isn't at least slightly small when paired with fairly pedestrian 40 times.

Crickett
11-08-2007, 05:25 PM
Rice is so thick though...

Why is a 4.5 frowned upon?..lol..Thats still fast as hell.

In general? Oh sure. So is 4.7. In the NFL? Not so much.

Breakaway speed is overrated..how many guys had breakaway speed, that flopped in the NFL?

And how many guys in the NFL have succeeded in the NFL at 5'9 205 (which is what he is listed as) WITHOUT breakaway speed?

He should be a first round pick...I think he'll measure in at 5'8" 210 lbs, which isn't small by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think he'll run a sub 4.5...Maybe in the 4.50-4.55 area, which is whats expected of him. He will KILL in the workouts though.

Isn't small by any stretch of the imagination? Compare 5'8 210 to starting running backs in the NFL. You won't find many that size in the NFL without elite speed.

The guy has all you look for...he almost never fumbles, has incredible vision, has proven he can catch the ball, and can pass block..He's a 3-down back...those guys tend to go pretty early. I have him as the 3rd best back, juniors included.


Everyone you look for? You mean like size or speed?

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 05:40 PM
Rice is an immortal god who has no weakness.

Really though i just dont know how he does it. He doesnt have elite size or speed. He just break tackles and finds ways to pick up yardage. His size is knocked by many for being too small, but really he hides behind the OL from the defense and picks up yardage. He's just an animal. I love him

Wootylicous
11-08-2007, 06:27 PM
A thread of Ray Rice without ScottyBoy is impossible :D

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 06:30 PM
A thread of Ray Rice without ScottyBoy is impossible :D

i saw this and saw like 8 posts without me and was floored. If there's one thing i know better than anyone here, it's RU!!! especially my boys Ray Ray, Foster, Greene, and really i could go all day, but those are my top boys

Geo
11-08-2007, 06:44 PM
I like Mike Hart a great deal, especially the way he plays the game and his love for the game, but I just don't see much explosion from him unfortunately. I'm less concerned with the deep speed, it's burst and explosion to get immediate yards versus bigger and faster defensive players that draws my concern. And apparently the concern of all 32 teams in the league, considering how we've seen some backs drop in the Draft or even go undrafted altogether (Darius Walker anyone?). Hart has done very well thanks to his tough running and excellent vision, hopefully he can continue to do it in the pros.

I think Ray Rice is a bit more explosive than Hart, and that helps him a good deal. I really would campaign for Rice come out after this season, despite the possible depth of backs: He can't improve his stock any more, really; he can't get bigger, faster, or more explosive; and next year's class will only be as top-heavy if not moreso given the juniors that don't declare this year, plus the talented sophomores who could declare after their junior season.

Really, take the cue from Maurice Drew. Enter the league and hopefully be drafted by a good team, do your best, and reach free agency as soon as possible.

Freddy G
11-08-2007, 06:59 PM
No size, no speed, no dice.....


Both Hart and Rice are terrific natural runners and perfect back up/2nd back in a dual backfield. However, to be "that guy" something has to set you apart and niether have anything like that. I think they could probably be Rudi Johnson types, ie: clock killer for an explosive offense, but if your looking for your running game to be your focus, these guys are not for you.

Neither should be taken before the 3rd round....i probably wouldn't give them a look until day 2. I mean, outside of Curtis Martin, guys like this just don't make it as feature backs.

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 07:02 PM
No size, no speed, no dice.....


Both Hart and Rice are terrific natural runners and perfect back up/2nd back in a dual backfield. However, to be "that guy" something has to set you apart and niether have anything like that. I think they could probably be Rudi Johnson types, ie: clock killer for an explosive offense, but if your looking for your running game to be your focus, these guys are not for you.

Neither should be taken before the 3rd round....i probably wouldn't give them a look until day 2. I mean, outside of Curtis Martin, guys like this just don't make it as feature backs.

i fail to see how size is such a huge issue with RB's. These guys arent blazers, but they get the job done, and nobody can argue that. There have been much faster guys who've dont worse in the NFL and slower guy who have done just fine. I could see both guys being feature backs for a NFL teams, easily

bigbluedefense
11-08-2007, 07:16 PM
Im just hoping and praying he falls in the draft to say, the 3rd round so the Giants can steal him.

Him and Mike Hart will both be very solid RBs in a RBC system. Id take either one.

Neither can be workhorses though. Rice maybe, but not Hart.

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 07:22 PM
Im just hoping and praying he falls in the draft to say, the 3rd round so the Giants can steal him.

Him and Mike Hart will both be very solid RBs in a RBC system. Id take either one.

Neither can be workhorses though. Rice maybe, but not Hart.

well, Rice is immortal, so that could help him be a workhorse

ironman4579
11-08-2007, 07:27 PM
No size, no speed, no dice.....


Both Hart and Rice are terrific natural runners and perfect back up/2nd back in a dual backfield. However, to be "that guy" something has to set you apart and niether have anything like that. I think they could probably be Rudi Johnson types, ie: clock killer for an explosive offense, but if your looking for your running game to be your focus, these guys are not for you.

Neither should be taken before the 3rd round....i probably wouldn't give them a look until day 2. I mean, outside of Curtis Martin, guys like this just don't make it as feature backs.

Emmitt Smith? But then he had arguanbly one of the best offensive lines ever.

bigbluedefense
11-08-2007, 07:32 PM
well, Rice is immortal, so that could help him be a workhorse

I know a couple of people who've been to Ray Rice's parties....


Yeaaaaaaaaah, he's having a lot of fun....

Travis 24
11-08-2007, 07:36 PM
How big was Curtis Martin?...Clinton Portis, Brian Westbrook...how big are these guys?

Size is THE most overrated thing in the history of football.


Everything you look for: vision, he blocks, he can catch the ball, he doesn't fumble...Who the **** cares how big he is..that makes no difference. How big was Emmitt Smith??...right. His lack of speed?...who cares. The guy can find holes, and he can break tackles..

You act like succeeding in football has nothing to do with actual ability..and all to do with your 40 time and if your 6'0" 220 lbs...just stop.

bigbluedefense
11-08-2007, 07:37 PM
How big was Curtis Martin?...Clinton Portis, Brian Westbrook...how big are these guys?

Size is THE most overrated thing in the history of football.


Everything you look for: vision, he blocks, he can catch the ball, he doesn't fumble...Who the **** cares how big he is..that makes no difference. How big was Emmitt Smith??...right. His lack of speed?...who cares. The guy can find holes, and he can break tackles..

You act like succeeding in football has nothing to do with actual ability..and all to do with your 40 time and if your 6'0" 220 lbs...just stop.

While size is overrated for RBs, speed is critical. You can't be a good NFL RB if you run a 4.6. Just doesn't happen.

Travis 24
11-08-2007, 07:38 PM
Did anyone say Bob Sanders couldn't play safety in the NFL because he was 5'8" (too short)...I'm sure a lot of people did.

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 07:39 PM
How big was Curtis Martin?...Clinton Portis, Brian Westbrook...how big are these guys?

Size is THE most overrated thing in the history of football.


Everything you look for: vision, he blocks, he can catch the ball, he doesn't fumble...Who the **** cares how big he is..that makes no difference. How big was Emmitt Smith??...right. His lack of speed?...who cares. The guy can find holes, and he can break tackles..

You act like succeeding in football has nothing to do with actual ability..and all to do with your 40 time and if your 6'0" 220 lbs...just stop.

i agree with size being incredibly overrated. But the Westbrook comparaison is off because Ray Ray doesnt have the blazing speed that other smaller guys. He doesnt have great size or speed but god does he just get the job done.

Travis 24
11-08-2007, 07:42 PM
While size is overrated for RBs, speed is critical. You can't be a good NFL RB if you run a 4.6. Just doesn't happen.

You think Rice will run a 4.6...?

40 times are OVER-RATED...especially for RB's. How often do backs run 40 yards in a straight line?...and pull out a stop watch, and time the difference between a 4.48 and a 4.56...you tell me, after 40 yards, if thats gonna make a huge difference on a football field.

If Rice runs a slow 10 yard dash, then we can talk about him not being a RB in the NFL..that is much, much, much more important...for almost every position.

Travis 24
11-08-2007, 07:43 PM
He doesnt have great size or speed but god does he just get the job done.

Which is what pisses me off when people talk about Ray Rice...everyone sees him as every other, run of the mill 5'9" 205 lb. RB...no one sees how damn hard this guy runs, or how hard he is to bring down...they just see "4.5 guy at best, small..can't play in the NFL."

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 07:45 PM
Which is what pisses me off when people talk about Ray Rice...everyone sees him as every other, run of the mill 5'9" 205 lb. RB...no one sees how damn hard this guy runs, or how hard he is to bring down...they just see "4.5 guy at best, small..can't play in the NFL."

nobody see him every down in every game. and i doubt people tape it, re-watch the games, and then re-watch them again while playing with myself

bigbluedefense
11-08-2007, 07:46 PM
You think Rice will run a 4.6...?

40 times are OVER-RATED...especially for RB's. How often do backs run 40 yards in a straight line?...and pull out a stop watch, and time the difference between a 4.48 and a 4.56...you tell me, after 40 yards, if thats gonna make a huge difference on a football field.

If Rice runs a slow 10 yard dash, then we can talk about him not being a RB in the NFL..that is much, much, much more important...for almost every position.

I think he runs a 4.55. Im hoping so at least. 40 times do make a big difference. If Marion Barber had a 6th gear he would be just as good as Adrian Peterson. But he doesn't, and thats why he doesn't break as many long runs as AD does.

Youre right, the first 10 yards is what matters more. Thats why his shuttle will be important as well as the first 20 yards of his 40. But to say speed doesn't mean anything is not accurate. It is important.

You can be small. But you can't be slow.

Travis 24
11-08-2007, 07:51 PM
You can tell by watching him play he's not slow...you don't need to wait until the combine so he can run his 40 time to determine that.

ironman4579
11-08-2007, 08:01 PM
While size is overrated for RBs, speed is critical. You can't be a good NFL RB if you run a 4.6. Just doesn't happen.

I don't know about that. I'll use Emmitt Smith as an example again. I've seen his combine 40 anywhere from a 4.6 to a 4.7. I'm pretty sure Curtis Martin did not fly in his 40 either(although whether it was slower than a 4.6 I'm not sure) This is my problem. Measurables have become too important to teams, as well as fans. Today, I would almost guarantee Emmitt Smith would not be selected in the first round. Hell, he might not even be drafted until the second day. Meanhwile, a guy that never did anything in college, and couldn't even maintain a steady starting spot, but had a great combine was taken in the 2nd round. Now, I realize "measurables" are important, but so is production and just being a damn football player. At some point, you've got to balance out the production with the measurables, and sadly, I think we're only moving farther and farther from that.

Now I'm not saying that either Ray Rice or Mike Hart should be first round selections. But for gods sake don't relegate them to also rans and back ups in the NFL before they've even completed their final seasons in college, let alone taken a snap in the NFL. This is directed to everyone by the way, not just you BBD.

nvot9
11-08-2007, 08:01 PM
As homeristic as Travis 24 might appear, being a Rutgers fan, I think he does bring up some excellent points. I mean to tell you the truth, this day and age, the draft is dominated by combine statistics (mainly size and speed) rather than actual game play. It's now become a draft where your selection is based upon attributes, as opposed to skill. Speed and size are definitely good things to have as an RB, but not necessary in my opinion. I think Travis brings up another good point when saying 40 yards is a little bit too much...I mean, essentially, all it determines is who would win in a footrace AFTER all the work's been done to break past the line and get past the majority of the defense. Otherwise, the difference between a 4.5 and a 4.45 is virtually insignificant...

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 08:04 PM
As homeristic as Travis 24 might appear, being a Rutgers fan, I think he does bring up some excellent points. I mean to tell you the truth, this day and age, the draft is dominated by combine statistics (mainly size and speed) rather than actual game play. It's now become a draft where your selection is based upon attributes, as opposed to skill. Speed and size are definitely good things to have as an RB, but not necessary in my opinion. I think Travis brings up another good point when saying 40 yards is a little bit too much...I mean, essentially, all it determines is who would win in a footrace AFTER all the work's been done to break past the line and get past the majority of the defense. Otherwise, the difference between a 4.5 and a 4.45 is virtually insignificant...

I dont care when he goes honestly. Of course I'd love for him to go high with more $ and more respect, but he'll dominate and lead the league in rushing wherever he goes.

His "lack" of size helps him, he hides behind blockers, reads the D, and finds the hole quickly. One man cant bring him down with an arm tackle

bigbluedefense
11-08-2007, 08:06 PM
I don't know about that. I'll use Emmitt Smith as an example again. I've seen his combine 40 anywhere from a 4.6 to a 4.7. I'm pretty sure Curtis Martin did not fly in his 40 either(although whether it was slower than a 4.6 I'm not sure) This is my problem. Measurables have become too important to teams, as well as fans. Today, I would almost guarantee Emmitt Smith would not be selected in the first round. Hell, he might not even be drafted until the second day. Meanhwile, a guy that never did anything in college, and couldn't even maintain a steady starting spot, but had a great combine was taken in the 2nd round. Now, I realize "measurables" are important, but so is production and just being a damn football player. At some point, you've got to balance out the production with the measurables, and sadly, I think we're only moving farther and farther from that.

Now I'm not saying that either Ray Rice or Mike Hart should be first round selections. But for gods sake don't relegate them to also rans and back ups in the NFL before they've even completed their final seasons in college, let alone taken a snap in the NFL. This is directed to everyone by the way, not just you BBD.


I think the speed of the game has changed since Emmit's time. Emmit running a 4.6 in 1980whatever is very different from 2007.

Having that said though, I am a huge Hart and Rice fan. As Ive stated before, Id love to have either in Giant blue. Its just that, if they run a 4.6, Id be a little worried. I think both will be great in RBC systems.

ironman4579
11-08-2007, 08:08 PM
I think the speed of the game has changed since Emmit's time. Emmit running a 4.6 in 1980whatever is very different from 2007.

Having that said though, I am a huge Hart and Rice fan. As Ive stated before, Id love to have either in Giant blue. Its just that, if they run a 4.6, Id be a little worried. I think both will be great in RBC systems.

Don't get me wrong, I would as well. I don't think either will run a 4.6 however, although 4.55 isn't out of the question IMO. I think Hart's best bet would definately be a ZBS without question, and I think he could really star in that system. Sorry, bit of a threadjack. Seems every Ray Rice thread turns into a Mike Hart thread and vice versa.

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 08:09 PM
lets just agree both will do well in the NFL no matter what their measureables are. Both have great ethic and heart. i can say i know Ray Rice doesnt take plays off. He's just an animal and a grade A guy. He's just soo sweet. god he's amazing

ironman4579
11-08-2007, 08:13 PM
lets just agree both will do well in the NFL no matter what their measureables are. Both have great ethic and heart. i can say i know Ray Rice doesnt take plays off. He's just an animal and a grade A guy. He's just soo sweet. god he's amazing

Need a tissue?

scottyboy
11-08-2007, 08:23 PM
Need a tissue?

nah I've got plenty. I've got some RU highlight clips, and vasoline. It's gonna be a good night

Crow
11-08-2007, 11:31 PM
4.5 is very fast if you're able to break into the secondary. I'm more interested in what these guys do in the first 5-10 yards.

Being a homerun hitter is great and all. But it's vision, balance, and burst through the hole that make the RB, not his top end speed.

Crickett
11-09-2007, 12:58 AM
Everything you look for: vision, he blocks, he can catch the ball, he doesn't fumble...Who the **** cares how big he is..that makes no difference. How big was Emmitt Smith??...right. His lack of speed?...who cares. The guy can find holes, and he can break tackles..

You act like succeeding in football has nothing to do with actual ability..and all to do with your 40 time and if your 6'0" 220 lbs...just stop.


Yeah, that J.J. Arrington is a sure bet. People are sure underrating him.

Seriously, go find the 2005 Sports Illustrated draft profile for J.J. Arrington. I have and it reads just like this post but without the vitriol. Am I allowed to post a link?

Paranoidmoonduck
11-09-2007, 01:22 AM
I personally really like Ray Rice as a runner. I think, compared to someone like Jonathan Stewart, he runs really hard and displays very good vision. Pair that with a great frame plus the fact that he appears to have answered the question about his pass catching ability this season and the only real concern are all those carries.

He might not have been a feature back anyway, but whoever drafts him is likely going to have to pair him with another back to keep him from breaking down early.

Mr. Stiller
11-09-2007, 01:33 AM
Rice is so thick though...

Why is a 4.5 frowned upon?..lol..Thats still fast as hell. Breakaway speed is overrated..how many guys had breakaway speed, that flopped in the NFL?

He should be a first round pick...I think he'll measure in at 5'8" 210 lbs, which isn't small by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think he'll run a sub 4.5...Maybe in the 4.50-4.55 area, which is whats expected of him. He will KILL in the workouts though.

The guy has all you look for...he almost never fumbles, has incredible vision, has proven he can catch the ball, and can pass block..He's a 3-down back...those guys tend to go pretty early. I have him as the 3rd best back, juniors included.

It's possible, but then again, Jones-Drew was more productive against better defenses in my opinion and he lasted until round 2 running a 4.39 at 5'7 207lbs. His triangle #'s were ridiculous as well.

Hart has injury issues and that could certainly drop him (though if he was there in round 2 I'd be hard pressed not to take him)

Rice had an off season ankle surgery, is running against some not so tough defenses...

Navy, Norfolk State, Buffalo, Maryland, Cincinnati, Syracuse, South Florida, West Virginia, Connecticut, Army, Pittsburgh and Louisville.

Of those I can Say that Maryland and South Florida have respectable defenses.

Then I will state that Rice only had 72 yards against Norfolk State and 97 against Maryland.

I like Rice and I'm not trying to knock him down, but he would likely get passed over for a .. Jamaal Charles or Rashard Mendenhall because they're bigger and faster.

I think Rice will be a solid RB in the Pro's but I don't know about an everydown or #1 RB. I feel the same way about Mike Hart. Which is why like I said, Wouldn't use a 1, would be tempted to use a 2.. definitely throw a three if he falls that far.

scottyboy
11-09-2007, 05:53 AM
rice had only 72 against norfolk state because he only played the 1st half...

he also tore south florida a new one each of the last 2 years

Freddy G
11-09-2007, 08:03 AM
I think a good comparison here would be Jerome Harrison. He was 5'9 200 soaking wet coming out, yet he was extremely shifty (more so than rice or hart) had great vision, un real production, and used his blockers probably as as anyone in that draft, he can catch as well. Yet he only runs a 4.5 and was 5th (maybe a 6th) round pick. Now he couldn't block or break a tackle, but still it just goes to show that production doesn't get you far.

Note i am not comparing running styles, just draft implications.

Too bad Hart has so much mileage/injuries on him or i think he could be a first day pick. His vision is great, never fumbles, and is the hardest 205 pounder to bring down i have ever seen.

Travis 24
11-09-2007, 03:57 PM
I don't think Arrington or Harrison are good comparisons...Rice is so much stronger than both of them..

Paranoidmoonduck
11-09-2007, 04:02 PM
I don't think Arrington or Harrison are good comparisons...Rice is so much stronger than both of them..

Arrington is actually quite strong and is built a bit like Rice, but he was much more of a straight line runner than Rice is. I love the way Rice bounces through gaps when he runs inside. That really isn't something Arrington does.

sweetd20
11-09-2007, 04:29 PM
Rice is one of those guys that will just get it done but will slip because he doesn't measure in with certain numbers. As far as 40 times go they are and always will be slightly to moderately over rated. Emmitt ran a 4.7 40 yard dash and wasn't that fast in the NFL either. I don't like to use Emmitt so much because he ran behind one of the greatest O-lines in all of football and played on a very balanced offense, but regardless he is the all time leading rusher in NFL history. More than 40 times for RBs the important things are vision and the ability to stop and go with out missing a beat. Rice has both of those while also being a rood receiver and blocker.

He doesn't have the Barry Sanders type of running ability (will anybody ever?) but he can find the cutback and get to top speed quickly. Barry I believe ran a very good 40 but in the NFL for most of his career that 40 didn't compute. Barry had what I said all great runners need, vision and acceleration but with pads on the top end that his 40 would suggest wasn't there. He knew it himself after watching film and seeig himself tackled numerous times from behind after breaking off big runs. So he dedicated himself to getting faster and was rewarded with a 2000 yard season.

Now will Rice ever have careers like a Sanders or Smith? Maybe not but he has a huge heart and the dedication to be a great RB in the NFL. Neither one of those guys were the biggest or fastest but given the right attitude and situation anything is possible. If Rice comes out this year and is taken in the 2nd round some team is going to be very happy with their RB situation.

DSlay4
11-10-2007, 09:12 AM
You can tell by watching him play he's not slow...you don't need to wait until the combine so he can run his 40 time to determine that.

Exactly. Some people care way too much about 40 times. I wonder if NFL teams even care about them. I seen Ray Rice play and he hits the hole as hard as anyone.

Mike Hart on the other hand is kinda slow, but he has tremendous vision,doesnt fumble, and never loses yards. That has to count for something.

Sniper
11-10-2007, 11:20 AM
How big was Curtis Martin?...Clinton Portis, Brian Westbrook...how big are these guys?

Size is THE most overrated thing in the history of football.


Everything you look for: vision, he blocks, he can catch the ball, he doesn't fumble...Who the **** cares how big he is..that makes no difference. How big was Emmitt Smith??...right. His lack of speed?...who cares. The guy can find holes, and he can break tackles..

You act like succeeding in football has nothing to do with actual ability..and all to do with your 40 time and if your 6'0" 220 lbs...just stop.

Portis runs a 4.4, Westbrook is one of the most elusive backs in football in open space, Martin, was, well just damn good.

Emmitt Smith had one of the sickest lines ever as well as a great QB and a great WR to take heat off of him.

metafour
11-10-2007, 12:00 PM
This sounds awfully similar to the Antonio Pittman hype from last year.

Granted I like Rice a ton more than Pittman, but either way, when you draft a RB in the first round you're looking for a guy who can be a feature/franchise back. Rice doesn't have the measurables to be that back.

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 12:05 PM
This sounds awfully similar to the Antonio Pittman hype from last year.

Granted I like Rice a ton more than Pittman, but either way, when you draft a RB in the first round you're looking for a guy who can be a feature/franchise back. Rice doesn't have the measurables to be that back.

measureables dont mean ****. He's got the stats, heart, ability, work ethic, and mindset of a franchise back

Crickett
11-10-2007, 01:22 PM
measureables dont mean ****.

Tell me that after your team drafts 220 lb defensive tackles and corners that run 4.9 40's.

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 01:25 PM
Tell me that after your team drafts 220 lb defensive tackles and corners that run 4.9 40's.

for a RB, measureables dont mean jack. of course size is required for a DT, thats obvious, but i dont give a **** if my CB runs a 4.9, if he makes plays on the ball, is a great tackler and doesnt constantly get beat, i dont care what his 40 is. How often is he gonna need to sprint 40 in sneakers and no pads in an ideal zone? It's shiftiness and acceleration that really matters.

so yes, size is needed for certain positions, mainly on the O and D line, but everywhere else, it doesnt matter as much as people hype it up to be.

neko4
11-10-2007, 01:52 PM
Anquan Boldin and Jerry Rice come to mind when speaking of 40's

josh07039
11-10-2007, 03:32 PM
Just curious, does anyone know what Priest Holmes ran in his 40?

Staubach12
11-10-2007, 03:44 PM
There's a lot of tread that could theoretically be gone, and that's something that concerns teams...

Sniper
11-10-2007, 03:53 PM
Anquan Boldin and Jerry Rice come to mind when speaking of 40's

And Troy Williamson and Ted Ginn also do ;)

BamaFalcon59
11-10-2007, 04:23 PM
Of those I can Say that Maryland and South Florida have respectable defenses.
.

Cincy and West Virginia hhave top 20 defenses don't they?

BamaFalcon59
11-10-2007, 04:25 PM
Ray Rice remninds me a lot of Travis Henry.

Crickett
11-10-2007, 06:03 PM
Edit: Ray Rice is a god among men and 40 times are completely irrelevant. 5'9 200 running backs who run 4.6's are more than big enough and fast enough to run 2000 yards a season every season for ten years.

I wouldn't want to be a difficult prick. :rolleyes:

Douchebags.

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 06:17 PM
clarett was also WAY out of shape and out of football for an entire year. I fail to see how that's comprable to Rice

Crickett
11-10-2007, 06:19 PM
clarett was also WAY out of shape and out of football for an entire year. I fail to see how that's comprable to Rice

Actually, I was just making a comment about 40 times. But nice try.

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 06:20 PM
Actually, I was just making a comment about 40 times. But nice try.

ok, if you want to talk about 40 times, start a thread about it. Clarett and his time have no reason at all being in a Ray Rice thread.

Crickett
11-10-2007, 06:30 PM
ok, if you want to talk about 40 times, start a thread about it. Clarett and his time have no reason at all being in a Ray Rice thread.

Speed has been an issue in this thread since the very first post. And quite frankly, you've been making them an issue as well. Remember "measurables don't mean ****"? You wrote it.

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 06:31 PM
Size and speed have been issues in this thread since the very first post.

yes, slower back who've been succesful and faster players who havent. Who cares about clarett?

Crickett
11-10-2007, 06:33 PM
yes, slower back who've been succesful and faster players who havent. Who cares about clarett?

Who cares about Ted Ginn Jr.? Or Jerry Rice? Or anyone else discussed in this thread?

Tampa 2 4 life
11-10-2007, 06:33 PM
Ray Rice reminds me of a tougher Thomas Jones.

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 06:37 PM
Who cares about Ted Ginn Jr.? Or Jerry Rice? Or anyone else discussed in this thread?

their size/40's were relevant showing speed isnt everything. your's showed that clarett blew.

Crickett
11-10-2007, 06:47 PM
their size/40's were relevant showing speed isnt everything. your's showed that clarett blew.


So I'm not allowed to show that speed isn't irrelevant? Right. :rolleyes:

nvot9
11-10-2007, 06:51 PM
So I'm not allowed to show that speed isn't irrelevant? Right. :rolleyes:

Crickett, what the hell are you talking about? Stop being a difficult prick just for the sake of being difficult. It is absolutely clear, that Clarett's downfall was NOT because of his lack of speed, and it would be utterly ridiculous to claim that.

Crickett
11-10-2007, 06:56 PM
There, any reference to Maurice Clarett has been erased. Have fun with your Ray Rice circlejerk.

metafour
11-10-2007, 07:16 PM
measureables dont mean ****. He's got the stats, heart, ability, work ethic, and mindset of a franchise back

Antonio Pittman had the stats, heart, ability, work ethic, and mindset of a franchise back as well. He fell all the way to the 4th round because he was a smaller back who lacked speed on the field and wasn't big enough to be a power back either. After he fell there were a ton of Pittman homers who cried about how big a steal Pittman was going to be - is Pittman even on the Saint's roster anymore? JJ Arrington is a different type of back compared to Rice, but once again, he had the stats (ridiculous stats at that) and everything else you're blabbering about - how has Arrington worked out in the NFL? Didn't Garrett Wolfe lead the NCAA in rushing last year? Funny, I dont remember him getting drafted very high at all...and I also dont see him doing anything in the NFL either. What could be the reason? Clearly its not his lack of measurables...oh wait, yes it is.

Yeah, measurables dont mean ****. I mean, its not like Adrian Peterson wouldn't be leading the league in rushing (while breaking the single-game rushing record) if he didn't possess ridiculous acceleration and awesome straight-line speed. Clearly these two unique traits that Peterson possesses definitely aren't playing as big a role as his "heart" and "mindset" LMAO.

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 09:38 PM
Antonio Pittman had the stats, heart, ability, work ethic, and mindset of a franchise back as well. He fell all the way to the 4th round because he was a smaller back who lacked speed on the field and wasn't big enough to be a power back either. After he fell there were a ton of Pittman homers who cried about how big a steal Pittman was going to be - is Pittman even on the Saint's roster anymore? JJ Arrington is a different type of back compared to Rice, but once again, he had the stats (ridiculous stats at that) and everything else you're blabbering about - how has Arrington worked out in the NFL? Didn't Garrett Wolfe lead the NCAA in rushing last year? Funny, I dont remember him getting drafted very high at all...and I also dont see him doing anything in the NFL either. What could be the reason? Clearly its not his lack of measurables...oh wait, yes it is.

Yeah, measurables dont mean ****. I mean, its not like Adrian Peterson wouldn't be leading the league in rushing (while breaking the single-game rushing record) if he didn't possess ridiculous acceleration and awesome straight-line speed. Clearly these two unique traits that Peterson possesses definitely aren't playing as big a role as his "heart" and "mindset" LMAO.

so you gave some examples. as did people in support of Rice. Pretty sure risks on size with Rice and Smith were bigger rewards than the "busts" of Pittman, arrington and wolfe.

Also, Rice is faster than pittman and WAY bigger and more powerful than Wolfe. try watching some of his games ok champ?(and tell me who Wolfe ran against, he played for the freakin solukis)

neko4
11-10-2007, 09:56 PM
I dont know about Rice being more powerful than Wolfe...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9s0qfxGlGQk

And its WAAAAAAY to early to judge Pittman and Wolfe

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 10:00 PM
I dont know about Rice being more powerful than Wolfe...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9s0qfxGlGQk

And its WAAAAAAY to early to judge Pittman and Wolfe

exactly, you cant judge rooks on half a year.

what just pisses me off the most is that half these guys havent watched more than 4 games of Ray Rice and are saying how he's not big or fast enough. stupid n00bs

etk
11-10-2007, 10:00 PM
How big was Curtis Martin?...Clinton Portis, Brian Westbrook...how big are these guys?

Size is THE most overrated thing in the history of football.



Clinton Portis has the speed that Rice doesn't, along with rare aggressiveness for a RB with the ball or when blocking. Westbrook...will leave Rice choking in the dust in a race. How do you compare Rice to two smaller backs when their speed and explosiveness is not comparable at all? Oh right, that's a rhetorical question...you're another Rutgers homer.


Did anyone say Bob Sanders couldn't play safety in the NFL because he was 5'8" (too short)...I'm sure a lot of people did.

Once again, Bob Sanders has elite speed and explosiveness for his position. His height is still a weakness, but other qualities help him achieve stardom. Just like some other posters who have responded to your ludicrous arguments, I don't feel Rice has the speed (important requirement for the position) to make up for his lack of size. Creases are not easy to find or create in the NFL, so teams expect their RBs to burst through those creases for large gains when they do occur. Having a back like Rice handicaps your offense. When you also factor in the issue of durability from being a one-man workhorse in an offense, you get a big question mark of a prospect. Rice will be fortunate if he ever makes Day One.

scottyboy
11-10-2007, 10:05 PM
Clinton Portis has the speed that Rice doesn't, along with rare aggressiveness for a RB with the ball or when blocking. Westbrook...will leave Rice choking in the dust in a race. How do you compare Rice to two smaller backs when their speed and explosiveness is not comparable at all? Oh right, that's a rhetorical question...you're another Rutgers homer.




Once again, Bob Sanders has elite speed and explosiveness for his position. His height is still a weakness, but other qualities help him achieve stardom. Just like some other posters who have responded to your ludicrous arguments, I don't feel Rice has the speed (important requirement for the position) to make up for his lack of size. Creases are not easy to find or create in the NFL, so teams expect their RBs to burst through those creases for large gains when they do occur. Having a back like Rice handicaps your offense. When you also factor in the issue of durability from being a one-man workhorse in an offense, you get a big question mark of a prospect. Rice will be fortunate if he ever makes Day One.


you're points are vaild. Sanders and Westbrook have elite speed and portis is faster than Rice. those points he brought up were dumb, mine arent as much.
I'm just saying he's under rated and people who dont watch him rag on him alot.

etk
11-10-2007, 10:12 PM
you're points are vaild. Sanders and Westbrook have elite speed and portis is faster than Rice. those points he brought up were dumb, mine arent as much.
I'm just saying he's under rated and people who dont watch him rag on him alot.

Ray Rice can be a serviceable back in the league, he's just not a candidate for a high draft choice. A team who drafts him knows what to expect: a guy who can step in as a backup from Day One and help ease the load of the starter. His vision and forward running style should allow him to maintain a solid and reliable YPC, but he's not big enough to be a goal line back or fast enough to be a dominant feature back. If he had more explosion, I'd pin him as a solid ZBS back, but instead he falls more along the lines of Selvin Young in that system.

metafour
11-10-2007, 10:35 PM
Also, Rice is faster than pittman and WAY bigger and more powerful than Wolfe. try watching some of his games ok champ?(and tell me who Wolfe ran against, he played for the freakin solukis)

I'm not comparing them as players!! What I'm busting is your ridiculous statements that measurables dont mean anything when CLEARLY they flat out DO. Pittman and Wolfe were both GREAT collegiate backs who lacked top-notch measurables (like Rice) but possessed all of the "other" things you mentioned which are supposedly going to make Rice an NFL star. Neither was drafted high (like expected by anyone who knows anything about the draft) and neither has made an impact, and likely never will make MUCH of an impact on the NFL level. As for who Wolfe ran against, I seem to remember him tearing up the (at the time) #1 OSU defense playing with an inferior supporting cast. Wolfe ran for 171 yards and had 114 yards receiving against OSU. Has Rice ever had a better game against an opponent as good?

I'm not even "hating" on Rice. I already stated that I like him a lot more than Pittman. His measurables are decent but they flat out are not good enough to make him a first round talent. No way. He deserves to be a first day pick, but I'd have to seriously question your knowledge if you persist to state that measurables dont mean anything for a runningback.

The best NFL backs ALL have some sort of unique/special measurables:

Tomlinson: Good size + Good speed + Good agility + Good power
Peterson: Great speed and great acceleration + Great power + Good size
Johnson: Great power + Great size + Good speed
Jackson: Great size + Great power + Good speed
Westbrook: Great speed, Great agility
etc.
etc.

Name me one elite NFL runningback that didn't have a single special attribute. The only real example you MIGHT be able to argue is Emmitt Smith, a guy who played over a decade ago and was easily overrated due to the system he played in. You can get away with only decent measurables collegiately and still dominate, but that is next to impossible on the NFL level unless you possess some unreal vision or other "un-measurable" attribute. I dont believe that Rice has any special attribute that sets him apart from elite runningbacks.

lod01
11-11-2007, 09:13 AM
He's like Frank Gore. He can be elite. If he's not totally worn out by then. This is one guy who is declaring early.

Sniper
11-11-2007, 09:14 AM
Westbrook: Great speed, Great agility
etc.
etc.



You could also add underrated power for Westbrook. Just sayin'.

josh07039
11-11-2007, 10:00 AM
Elite running back without good measurables=curtis martin

ironman4579
11-11-2007, 10:38 AM
Elite running back without good measurables=curtis martin

Actually, I think Curtis Martin actually did turn heads at the combine with something like a 41 1/2 in vert which was the best at the combine and the longest standing broadjump at the combine with a 10'11" standing broadjump.

Travis 24
11-11-2007, 01:02 PM
Here's what etk sees when looking at Ray Rice = 5'9" 205 lbs, 4.6 40 = Backup in the NFL.

Actually, thats what everyone sees when looking at him...whatever

scottyboy
12-21-2009, 04:33 PM
so random events in IRC led me to google "Raymell Rice nfldraftcountdown" and it led to this. here's me doing my happy, "i told you so dance".
i can haz win on interwebz?

http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=849297
^^^ tons of fail

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
12-21-2009, 04:49 PM
so random events in IRC led me to google "Raymell Rice nfldraftcountdown" and it led to this. here's me doing my happy, "i told you so dance".
i can haz win on interwebz?

http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=849297
^^^ tons of fail

Can you help me quote Metsox at the end of that thread????? I will finally take APS off my sig quote if you do.

billsfootball15
12-21-2009, 04:59 PM
lol at who bumped this up. who would've guessed? hahaha

scottyboy
12-21-2009, 04:59 PM
Can you help me quote Metsox at the end of that thread????? I will finally take APS off my sig quote if you do.

i dont think you can link the quote because it's a locked threat. but you could manually use copy and paste

i think

CC.SD
12-21-2009, 05:10 PM
Hilarious thread is hilarious.

Massive fail, even MetSox would admit it.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
12-21-2009, 05:21 PM
Well it looks like APS will no longer suffer from his words when he sees my post but not it will be Metsox who will have to see it

baronzeus
12-22-2009, 04:56 AM
As an avid Bengals fan, I can say Ray Rice is by far the scariest player the Bengals faced this year on any side of the ball other than Andre Johnson. Total game changer. That includes AP, Cribbs, Jared Allen--everyone. It saddens me that he's going to be on that team for years to come.

Saints-Tigers
12-22-2009, 08:46 AM
Too be fair, when you tout every player from your school, you don't really get to say "I told you so" when one hits.

Unless you want to man up to being totally wrong about Brian Leonard. ;)

GaMeTiMe
12-22-2009, 09:10 AM
so random events in IRC led me to google "Raymell Rice nfldraftcountdown" and it led to this. here's me doing my happy, "i told you so dance".
i can haz win on interwebz?

http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=849297
^^^ tons of fail

It proves that half the people on this board just run into threads and argue the other side of the fence just for the sake of it. You see it in every single thread.
Everyone wants to sound like the best "scout". Digging up these kind of things may make people think twice before saying things like this:

No size, no speed, no dice.....


Both Hart and Rice are terrific natural runners and perfect back up/2nd back in a dual backfield. However, to be "that guy" something has to set you apart and niether have anything like that. I think they could probably be Rudi Johnson types, ie: clock killer for an explosive offense, but if your looking for your running game to be your focus, these guys are not for you.

Neither should be taken before the 3rd round....i probably wouldn't give them a look until day 2. I mean, outside of Curtis Martin, guys like this just don't make it as feature backs.

It's not even being so down on Rice particularly, it's the grouping with Mike Hart who's the definition of street free agent.

Sniper
12-22-2009, 09:20 AM
It's not even being so down on Rice particularly, it's the grouping with Mike Hart who's the definition of street free agent.

Right. I hope Hart's not the backup RB on the league's lone undefeated team. He must be on the streets with no NFL job.

stephenson86
12-22-2009, 09:26 AM
rice is pretty sick

Abaddon
12-22-2009, 10:09 AM
Steal of my FFL draft. I took him and Steve Smith (NYG) and have looked like a genius.