Belichick

[Staubach12]

Does Bill Belichick have class? Simple question. No homers, now. I want your honest opinion. I'm in an argument with someone, so tell me what you think.

[BrownsTown]

I think if you asked Bill Belicheck if he had class even he would say no.

[Moses]

Define class.

[Staubach12]

Define it for yourself.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Define class.

The integrity to accomplish the greatest you can, bill has that

[JK17]

Hmmm. Well I've spoken about it a lot on the forums, I say no. But you could make a case the other way I just don't buy it. Either way, I'm sure he doesn't care, and he wins, so debating how classy he is, is just begging for a fight. Plus its been discussed about 1000 times and each time its ended ugly.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

I've yet to gear a compelling reason for why he doesn't.

[Jakey]

I think its abit hard to say unless you actually know them personaly...but i voted no...simply because i havent actually seen or heard him do anything classy.

[Babylon]

He's getting paid to win football games not be Mr. Congeniality.

[JK17]

I've yet to gear a compelling reason for why he doesn't.

Blowing off handshakes. Listing Brady with a phantom shoulder injury each week. Running up the score (whether you think its fine to do so or not, its undeniable he was). Having been caught cheating. There are plenty of reasons why he could be considered not classy, its just a matter of how seriously you look upon those things that he has done.

He does win games. I don't agree with a lot of the things he does, but in terms of winning games there's no doubt he's a good coach. But winning games has no corelation with being a classy person.

[niel89]

Blowing off handshakes. Listing Brady with a phantom shoulder injury each week. Running up the score (whether you think its fine to do so or not, its undeniable he was). Having been caught cheating. There are plenty of reasons why he could be considered not classy, its just a matter of how seriously you look upon those things that he has done.

He does win games. I don't agree with a lot of the things he does, but in terms of winning games there's no doubt he's a good coach. But winning games has no corelation with being a classy person.

yes on all accounts

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

His job is to win as well as he can and have his team play as well as they can at least 60 minutes a week. He's doing his job better than anybody else, what's more classy than that?

[JK17]

His job is to win as well as he can and have his team play as well as they can at least 60 minutes a week. He's doing his job better than anybody else, what's more classy than that?

What? Doing his job and being classy are two entirely different things. Over the past couple years no one has arguably done their job better then Bellichek. That doesn't make him classy...it makes him good at his job.

[P-L]

Who honestly cares? He wins football games. I could care less how he wins football games. I'd take him in an instant to coach the Lions.

[RCAChainGang]

When I think of class it has lots of things mixed together. First you need to be an accomplished caoch or player. Yet when you lose you lose with your head high. You shake the others hand and don't put the hood over your head a give a wimpy touch and storm off the field. Sportsmanship is part of this. Belichick has no sportsmanship. He lets his players taunt the other team after winning. I think a good example of class is Cowher (not older in his career) >_>. Nearing the end he had great sportsmanship and he was succesfull. ALso another good example is Lovie Smith, after losing in the superbowl he gave a hardy hand shake with Dungy. Thats class. Being great at what you do and not insulting others or losing your temper after a game. Belichick won't even bench Tom Brady when hes killing Miami, cause he'd rather run up the scoreboard. I definately vote NO!

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Blowing off handshakes. Listing Brady with a phantom shoulder injury each week. Running up the score (whether you think its fine to do so or not, its undeniable he was). Having been caught cheating. There are plenty of reasons why he could be considered not classy, its just a matter of how seriously you look upon those things that he has done.

He does win games. I don't agree with a lot of the things he does, but in terms of winning games there's no doubt he's a good coach. But winning games has no corelation with being a classy person.

his job is to win as much as he can and have his team play as well as they can. He's got the integrity to whatever he has to to do that, that to me is class, the integrity to dedicate himself to that pursuit is class.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

The more interesting discussion would be whether being a class act is really that important to being considered a great coach and establishing the right kind of attitude in an organization.

[JK17]

his job is to win as much as he can and have his team play as well as they can. He's got the integrity to whatever he has to to do that, that to me is class, the integrity to dedicate himself to that pursuit is class.

Integrity? Really, its kind of an ironic word choice to use for a guy who was caught cheating. How can you have integrity to dedicate yourself to soemthing? Not to mention class, is more or less a synonym for sportsmanship, how well you handle victories, losses, being a role model and the respect you show to your colleagues. Not winning games. Who cares what his job is, thats irrelevant in a question about class. Like I said, he may do his job great, but that has no bearing on how "classy" he is.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

bill has chosen football as his life's pursuit. So for him to be classy he's got to accomplish greatness in his life's pursuit, aka football. He does that perfectly. I consider that true class.

[JK17]

The more interesting discussion would be whether being a class act is really that important to being considered a great coach and establishing the right kind of attitude in an organization.

Agreed. There's no denying Bellichek is a great coach. 3 Super Bowls, a perrennial winning team, and the ability to generate good team chemistry is an example of him being a great coach. None of that however, is indicative of class, which would then stress how important class is to the coaching profession.

[P-L]

Here is how the dictionary defines class:

excellence; exceptional merit

I guess it depends on how you define class.

[Staubach12]

The dictionary defines it as "excellence; exceptional merit" He's the best in the NFL.

[Staubach12]

Here is how the dictionary defines class:



I guess it depends on how you define class.

Hahahaha That's awesome.

[JK17]

Here is how the dictionary defines class:



I guess it depends on how you define class.

I didn't look it up, but wouldn't that be "the class of the NFL". For instance being "the class" of something would mean your the best. But having class, would mean something else entirely.

[Moses]

I didn't look it up, but wouldn't that be "the class of the NFL". For instance being "the class" of something would mean your the best. But having class, would mean something else entirely.

Hence why there are different definitions for words in the dictionary, based on usage.

[Staubach12]

He's getting paid to win football games not be Mr. Congeniality.

Ding ding ding ding ding! Tell him what he's won, Bob!

[Moses]

This is the definition we are likely looking for:

14. Informal. elegance, grace, or dignity, as in dress and behavior: He may be a slob, but his brother has real class.

Dress...definitely not classy. Behavior...up for debate. :D

[JK17]

Ding ding ding ding ding! Tell him what he's won, Bob!

Which, would imply he's good at his job. Not that he has class.

He may be the "class" of the NFL coaches, but not have "class" at the same time.

[Average OT LB]

Dumbest question ever. I think I'd call my dog a cat before i said bill belicheck had class..

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Integrity? Really, its kind of an ironic word choice to use for a guy who was caught cheating. How can you have integrity to dedicate yourself to soemthing? Not to mention class, is more or less a synonym for sportsmanship, how well you handle victories, losses, being a role model and the respect you show to your colleagues. Not winning games. Who cares what his job is, thats irrelevant in a question about class. Like I said, he may do his job great, but that has no bearing on how "classy" he is.

Integrity is the perfect word, as it describes one's dedication to one's goal, to one's driving force. For Bill this pursuit is coaching football, it's his dream. So for him integrity describes his dedication towards greatness at coaching football. Everything he's done this year has shown his dedication towards achieving greatness at coaching football. I think that's the definition of class.

[JK17]

Integrity is the perfect word, as it describes one's dedication to one's goal, to one's driving force. For Bill this pursuit is coaching football, it's his dream. So for him integrity describes his dedication towards greatness at coaching football. Everything he's done this year has shown his dedication towards achieving greatness at coaching football. I think that's the definition of class.

Well since we're using dictionary definitions...

in·teg·ri·ty - adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty

How is integrity, based off its primary definition, dedication to one's goal? Moreso, based on its primary definition, how is integrity the proper term used to describe Bellichek?

It's great that he wants to be the best coach, with the best team, or whatever. But that is not what integrity or class means, in the sense that the question in the beginning of the thread was asked in.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Well since we're using dictionary definitions...

in·teg·ri·ty - adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty

How is integrity, based off its primary definition, dedication to one's goal? Moreso, based on its primary definition, how is integrity the proper used to describe Bellichek?

It's great that he wants to be the best coach, with the best team, or whatever. But that is not what integrity or class means, in the sense that the question in the beginning of the thread was asked in.

a) My moral and ethical principles dictate that a man must seek to accomplish greatness and dedication to his passions and desires. Bills passion is to be a great football coach, so to adhere to my moral and ethical principles he must seek to successfully dedicate himself towards becoming a great football coach. Which he certainly had.

b) only person who knows in which sense integrity and class where used in the question in the beginning of this thread is the author of that and so we can only answer in respect to what each of us considers class.

[JK17]

a) My moral and ethical principles dictate that a man must seek to accomplish greatness and dedication to his passions and desires. Bills passion is to be a great football coach, so to adhere to my moral and ethical principles he must seek to successfully dedicate himself towards becoming a great football coach. Which he certainly had.

Except what you just listed are personal values. The desire to be great is a personal value. But its not a moral or ethical concern about if wanting to win is a good thing. I think everyone can agree on that; that a desire to be great is a good thing. Its the methods of achieving victory, and actions demosntrated after winning/losing that would be immoral or unethical. Its understandable to say that a person, in your eyes, needs to strive for greatness in order to be respected, in order to "have class" its still relatively insignificant. It also left out the honesty part, which the spygate scandal would directly conflict.

b) only person who knows in which sense integrity and class where used in the question in the beginning of this thread is the author of that and so we can only answer in respect to what each of us considers class.

Well your the one who introduced integrity, which has a pretty concrete definition. As far as class, that is true, but the question was phrased "does BB have class" which implies the definition Moses listed. Had it asked "Is BB the class of the NFL coaches" the story would be differnet and more open to interpretation that way.

[Ewing]

Someone needs to go after Brady's knees. Let's see Billy Belichick run up the score with his star player on a stretcher.

[yodapoop]

Someone needs to go after Brady's knees. Let's see Billy Belichick run up the score with his star player on a stretcher.

Ur not getting to them, teams have barely been able to lay a paw on him.

[The Great Jonathan Vilma]

IMO it's an obvious no! If you can't understand why i feel that way then i'm not going to both trying to explain because you either ignore all the signs of 'no class' or you are just messing around.

You can look at many different things and say he does or doesn't, but there are definite instances where his lack of class shines loud and proud

[Ewing]

Ur not getting to them, teams have barely been able to lay a paw on him.

I'll do it after the whistle is blown on the play. I don't give a **** how much they fine me. No way is some jackass running up the score on my team without any consequences.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

I'll do it after the whistle is blown on the play. I don't give a **** how much they fine me. No way is some jackass running up the score on my team without any consequences.

Why? Because your team sucked too much to stop him?

[Ewing]

Why? Because your team sucked too much to stop him?

No, because they're something called respecting the game. Something Billy hasn't shown all year. He's been a complete and total dick to everybody for the past few months and it's about time someone put him in his place.

[Average OT LB]

This game is just an example of how this thread should be very one sided.

[RCAChainGang]

No, because they're something called respecting the game. Something Billy hasn't shown all year. He's been a complete and total dick to everybody for the past few months and it's about time someone put him in his place.

amen... but who? If Tom Brady breaks TD record cause he has a receiver that is almost unfair in vertical then I'm gonna be pissed. Peyton broke that threading the needle not just chucking it up there with double coverage (twice in miami game) Don't get me wrong Tom Brady is a great QB but some of his TD's are just ridiculous. Hell, he's on my fantasy team yet I still hate his cheap TD's like that. Then I see that coach and I want to scream.

[Moses]

amen... but who? If Tom Brady breaks TD record cause he has a receiver that is almost unfair in vertical then I'm gonna be pissed. Peyton broke that threading the needle not just chucking it up there with double coverage (twice in miami game) Don't get me wrong Tom Brady is a great QB but some of his TD's are just ridiculous. Hell, he's on my fantasy team yet I still hate his cheap TD's like that. Then I see that coach and I want to scream.

You do realize the Colts had one of the most prolific offences of all-time when Peyton broke the record...

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

No, because they're something called respecting the game. Something Billy hasn't shown all year. He's been a complete and total dick to everybody for the past few months and it's about time someone put him in his place.

He doesn't have respect for the game? He's taking the game to new heights. This could be one of the greatest teams for a very long time. Nothing shows respect to a game more than playing it at the greatest level possible.

[BrownsTown]

He doesn't have respect for the game? He's taking the game to new heights. This could be one of the greatest teams for a very long time. Nothing shows respect to a game more than playing it at the greatest level possible.

Haha it's funny cause you're just trying to get people angry. And it's working. I'm getting a kick out of it.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Haha it's funny cause you're just trying to get people angry. And it's working. I'm getting a kick out of it.

Would you laugh if I told you I sincerely believed it?

[Ewing]

He doesn't have respect for the game? He's taking the game to new heights. This could be one of the greatest teams for a very long time. Nothing shows respect to a game more than playing it at the greatest level possible.

They see me trollin'...

[bearsfan_51]

Actually I tend to agree with Osi. I don't really understand why people get more mad when their team loses by 40 instead of 20. Guess what? Your team still sucks.

[BrownsTown]

Would you laugh if I told you I sincerely believed it?

That would make it less funny.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

They see me trollin'...

Am I? I've yet to hear someone prove my opinion inaccurate and so long as what i'm saying isn't inaccurate i'll continue to say it.

[NATIONALchamps]

dick jauron don't need to worry. he gets plenty of poon.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

That would make it less funny.

Sorry to disappoint you.

[Average OT LB]

Am I? I've yet to hear someone prove my opinion inaccurate and so long as what i'm saying isn't inaccurate i'll continue to say it.

You havent seen a good argument? I havent seen one either from you, but then again if i were to use your stance i may not ahve even bothered to look..

What you've said here really does nothing but cause problems..

For instance if I were to say that I'm gonna be a troll to everyone until i find an argument that i think is alright, and its up to me to decide whether it is or not.. i dont think that there will ever come a point where I may find an argument credible so long as i want to troll..

good job tho

[RCAChainGang]

You do realize the Colts had one of the most prolific offences of all-time when Peyton broke the record...

yea your right. good memories :) (excluding playoffs)

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

You havent seen a good argument? I havent seen one either from you, but then again if i were to use your stance i may not ahve even bothered to look..

What you've said here really does nothing but cause problems..

For instance if I were to say that I'm gonna be a troll to everyone until i find an argument that i think is alright, and its up to me to decide whether it is or not.. i dont think that there will ever come a point where I may find an argument credible so long as i want to troll..

good job tho

All right let me try a good argument for why Belicheck does have tremendous respect for the game.

The ultimate way to show respect to something like a sport is to play it at the greatest possible level, Belicheck is accomplishing this in a manner which we haven't seen in a long time, maybe never, I think he has absolute respect for the game because of that fact.

As far as being classy is concerned I think that for someone to be classy they don't have to just wilt to what others consider classiness, but rather they have to determine what they want and what drives them and pursue that to as far as they can. Belicheck is motived to be great at football, and he's riding that as far as he can and is accomplishing greatness in his field/Passion I consider that classiness even if the rest of the world says it makes him a selfish bastard.

[P-L]

Actually I tend to agree with Osi. I don't really understand why people get more mad when their team loses by 40 instead of 20. Guess what? Your team still sucks.
Pretty much my feelings on the matter. Would people feel that much better if the Pats kicked a FG instead of passing that TD to Ben Watson. Would a 52-10 game really make that much more a difference than a 56-10 game?

[RCAChainGang]

Pretty much my feelings on the matter. Would people feel that much better if the Pats kicked a FG instead of passing that TD to Ben Watson. Would a 52-10 game really make that much more a difference than a 56-10 game?

Well, when you already have beaten a team you shouldn't keep rubbing it in there face. I don't care if you have a record your aiming for. Peyton against the Ravens could have broken the TD record, but he kneeled. Thats just respecting the other team.

[RCAChainGang]

All right let me try a good argument for why Belicheck does have tremendous respect for the game.

The ultimate way to show respect to something like a sport is to play it at the greatest possible level, Belicheck is accomplishing this in a manner which we haven't seen in a long time, maybe never, I think he has absolute respect for the game because of that fact.

As far as being classy is concerned I think that for someone to be classy they don't have to just wilt to what others consider classiness, but rather they have to determine what they want and what drives them and pursue that to as far as they can. Belicheck is motived to be great at football, and he's riding that as far as he can and is accomplishing greatness in his field/Passion I consider that classiness even if the rest of the world says it makes him a selfish bastard.

Damn dude. Wow the point has been made to you twice already from jk17. We don't think he's a bastard because he's good, but because the way he treats the other team. The handshakes he brushes off. You still haven't adjusted to what "class" means in this discussion.

[P-L]

Well, when you already have beaten a team you shouldn't keep rubbing it in there face. I don't care if you have a record your aiming for. Peyton against the Ravens could have broken the TD record, but he kneeled. Thats just respecting the other team.
There was under 1 minute left when Peyton took a knee. I 100% guarantee the Patriots would take a knee in the same situation. However, that is irrelevant to the point I was making.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Well, when you already have beaten a team you shouldn't keep rubbing it in there face. I don't care if you have a record your aiming for. Peyton against the Ravens could have broken the TD record, but he kneeled. Thats just respecting the other team.

Why shouldn't you? I think it's more disrespectful to say "look we know you don't have a shot, so here we'll let our backups play you maybe they won't embarass you". If my team is getting blown out I'm going out there and playing my ass of and hoping the other team does the same.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Damn dude. Wow the point has been made to you twice already from jk17. We don't think he's a bastard because he's good, but because the way he treats the other team. The handshakes he brushes off. You still haven't adjusted to what "class" means in this discussion.

And I'm criticizing your use of the word class. Or at least if you're going to use it that way then don't give it such a noble connotation.

[RCAChainGang]

There was under 1 minute left when Peyton took a knee. I 100% guarantee the Patriots would take a knee in the same situation. However, that is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Its relevent. Going after a record is a big thing that can affect whether you rest your players or not. I see your opinion though, but my point wasn't irrelevent.

[Namy]

bill has chosen football as his life's pursuit. So for him to be classy he's got to accomplish greatness in his life's pursuit, aka football. He does that perfectly. I consider that true class.

Right... and this would also make Terrel Owens classy right? Lawrence Taylor was pretty classy too then? Oh, and so was Deion Sanders? Being classy is about integrity and character on/off the field.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Right... and this would also make Terrel Owens classy right? Lawrence Taylor was pretty classy too then? Oh, and so was Deion Sanders? Being classy is about integrity and character on/off the field.

how do you define integrity? I bet we seriously disagree on that as well.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness -not pain or mindless self-indulgence - is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values.

[RCAChainGang]

And I'm criticizing your use of the word class. Or at least if you're going to use it that way then don't give it such a noble connotation.

50% of class is sportsmanship its pretty much a synonym. Winning with a good attitude is noble I would think >_>.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

50% of class is sportsmanship its pretty much a synonym. Winning with a good attitude is noble I would think >_>.

The only nobility in winning is in achieving greatness, achieving less than your best can't possibly be noble.

[RCAChainGang]

The only nobility in winning is in achieving greatness, achieving less than your best can't possibly be noble.

Class isnt only based off how good you are, or how many points you score, but in the manner you achieve your goals. You refuse to let sportsmanship have any base of class.

[someone447]

Integrity is the perfect word, as it describes one's dedication to one's goal, to one's driving force. For Bill this pursuit is coaching football, it's his dream. So for him integrity describes his dedication towards greatness at coaching football. Everything he's done this year has shown his dedication towards achieving greatness at coaching football. I think that's the definition of class.

So, a professional con artist is classy? He dedicates his life to being the best con artist ever.

[Nitschke-Hawk]

The best/worst part of Belichick is showing no true happiness or sense of accomplishment in any win. That is, until the Patriots win the Super Bowls, that's the only time we've seen him that way.

It's the best thing because he has the most focused football team I've ever seen. There's no doubt that every one of these wins is just a step and you (is players) must do each to best of your ability. This team will never get complacent and play down to their competition. He knows he has the most talent. Obviously the most talented teams every year have lost because of not playing their best. He has pretty much eliminated that chance. And I hate blowing out a team for 3 quarters then they get a bunch of garbage yards and points.

It's the worst thing because it creates this image about him and his team. Most people would prefer if the opponent would beat them by 20 rather than 40, but a win is a win.

Overall I'd rather beat everybody by 40 even though it would get boring, than take care of my team's image.

[someone447]

Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness -not pain or mindless self-indulgence - is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values.

That is a very Machiavellian belief. But one that I share, the ends justify the means.

Being classy only has to do with conforming to societies views on what integrity and sportsmanship are.

Not to mention, saying Bellicheck has integrity is laughable. In order to have integrity, you must abide by the rules set forth. Cheating is showing a definite lack of integrity.

Now, not having integrity and not being classy are not necessarily bad things. I do not deny that I try to seize every advantage I can in any situation(as long as the pros outweigh the cons.) Am I classy or do I have integrity? Probably not, because I am willing to lie, cheat, or steal if it suits me.

This is the definition we are dealing with.
integrity
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility

Unless Bill Belicheck cheats at everything all the time, he does not have integrity. That would mean he does not have a firm adherence to that moral code. It is not possible to firmly adhere to a moral code of cheating, at least not while living in society. Those with integrity are the ones who have a firm adherence to specific morals.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

So, a professional con artist is classy? He dedicates his life to being the best con artist ever.

A con artist doesn't actually achieve or create greatness, his greatness is in other people and thus worthless, belichek is achieving something which will always stand on its own whether people like it or not, fall for it or not.

Although I do think a great con is something interesting, not something great and noble but still interesting.

[someone447]

A con artist doesn't actually achieve or create greatness, his greatness is in other people and thus worthless, belichek is achieving something which will always stand on its own whether people like it or not, fall for it or not.

Although I do think a great con is something interesting, not something great and noble but still interesting.

There are plenty of great con artists throughout history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil

Belicheck also depends on other people, namely, the players on his team.

By your definition, if a con artist attempts to become the greatest con artist in history, he is classy.

[JK17]

A con artist doesn't actually achieve or create greatness, his greatness is in other people and thus worthless, belichek is achieving something which will always stand on its own whether people like it or not, fall for it or not.

Although I do think a great con is something interesting, not something great and noble but still interesting.

Why do you keep pretending like achieving greatness and being a classy person are the same thing? Terrell Owens achieves greatness. He is not a classy person. Shawne Merriman achieves greatness. He is not a classy person. Chad Johnson achieves greatness. He is not a classy person.

Bill Bellichek achieves greatness. He is not a classy person.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

That is a very Machiavellian belief. But one that I share, the ends justify the means.

Being classy only has to do with conforming to societies views on what integrity and sportsmanship are.

Not to mention, saying Bellicheck has integrity is laughable. In order to have integrity, you must abide by the rules set forth. Cheating is showing a definite lack of integrity.

Now, not having integrity and not being classy are not necessarily bad things. I do not deny that I try to seize every advantage I can in any situation(as long as the pros outweigh the cons.) Am I classy or do I have integrity? Probably not, because I am willing to lie, cheat, or steal if it suits me.

This is the definition we are dealing with.
integrity
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility

Unless Bill Belicheck cheats at everything all the time, he does not have integrity. That would mean he does not have a firm adherence to that moral code. It is not possible to firmly adhere to a moral code of cheating, at least not while living in society. Those with integrity are the ones who have a firm adherence to specific morals.
Each man is responsible for his own moral code, integrity can only be achieved when someone adheres to a moral code of their own and I'm sure bill holds achieving greatest at all costs as a significant part of his moral code as do I and as should all people.

[someone447]

Each man is responsible for his own moral code, integrity can only be achieved when someone adheres to a moral code of their own and I'm sure bill holds achieving greatest at all costs as a significant part of his moral code as do I and as should all people.

That is not a part of a moral code. Achieving greatness may supersede his moral code, but it does not take the place of it.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

There are plenty of great con artists throughout history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil

Belicheck also depends on other people, namely, the players on his team.

By your definition, if a con artist attempts to become the greatest con artist in history, he is classy.

What are the goals of a con man seeking greatness? To deceive people in some manor, so his greatness I'd dependent on his public and their response.

What are the goals of a coach seeking greatness? To have a team playing football at the highest level possible, that is not dependent on the public but rather him and his co-workers achieving a tangible goal.

[JK17]

What are the goals of a con man seeking greatness? To deceive people in some manor, so his greatness I'd dependent on his public and their response.

What are the goals of a coach seeking greatness? To have a team playing football at the highest level possible, that is not dependent on the public but rather him and his co-workers achieving a tangible goal.

Isn't everyone's perceived greatness dependant on the public and their response? I mean, the con artist, in this example is working towards his goal. If he is able to work hard enough to be succesful at deciving people, much like a coach works hard to be effective at beating teams, he accomplished his goal, by himself, of being great. He will perceive himself as great if he accomplishes this goal. What the public thinks however is up to them.

Same for a football coach. He will, if he achieves his goal, perceive himself as great, yet he's still dependent on the public for it to be accepted as great by someone other then him.



And yet, all of this, has absolutely nothing to do with a disucssion of class, rather a discussion of achieving goals, which there is no denying Bellichek does.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

That is not a part of a moral code. Achieving greatness may supersede his moral code, but it does not take the place of it.

I disagree. I consider the pursuit of greatness while staying true to your passions the most reasonable moral code.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Isn't everyone's perceived greatness dependant on the public and their response? I mean, the con artist, in this example is working towards his goal. If he is able to work hard enough to be succesful at deciving people, much like a coach works hard to be effective at beating teams, he accomplished his goal, by himself, of being great. He will perceive himself as great if he accomplishes this goal. What the public thinks however is up to them.

Same for a football coach. He will, if he achieves his goal, perceive himself as great, yet he's still dependent on the public for it to be accepted as great by someone other then him.
And yet, all of this, has absolutely nothing to do with a disucssion of class, rather a discussion of achieving goals, which there is no denying Bellichek does.

the con artist can't be great without the public granting him greatness. No matter how gclever his deception he's dependent on the public to fall for it. A great coach doesn't need the public to acknowledge his team as great for them to be great.

[someone447]

I disagree. I consider the pursuit of greatness while staying true to your passions the most reasonable moral code.

Greatness and morality are not the same thing. By your definition, Hitler was moral.

moral:
1 a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b: expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c: conforming to a standard of right behavior d: sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e: capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>

synonyms moral, ethical, virtuous, righteous, noble mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good. moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong

[someone447]

the con artist can't be great without the public granting him greatness. No matter how gclever his deception he's dependent on the public to fall for it. A great coach doesn't need the public to acknowledge his team as great for them to be great.

He is dependent on specific people to fall for it, or in another word, to LOSE to him. A coach is dependent on other people LOSING to him.

[JK17]

the con artist can't be great without the public granting him greatness. No matter how gclever his deception he's dependent on the public to fall for it. A great coach doesn't need the public to acknowledge his team as great for them to be great.

Actually without the public acknowleding a team as great, what does it matter? They'll be forgotten and what is great about that? A con artist can be great at what he does, and if he's good enough will not only be able to decieve people, but even if he doesn't, will be able to know he's great at what he does...Just as much as a coach can believe his team is great, a con artist can believe he is great, no matter what happens.

But can you just answer the most important question of this entire thread; what does being great have anything to do with being classy? You've taken a word, and given it a definition it does not have.

[someone447]

You are wrong on this one buddy. Belicheck does not have class, nor is trying to achieve greatness moral.

However, I do agree that achieving greatness is better than being a moral person.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

He is dependent on specific people to fall for it, or in another word, to LOSE to him. A coach is dependent on other people LOSING to him.

no he isn't, greatness for a coach is only reflective of a team's playing great, not of their opposition succumbing to them.

This has been fun but I've got an early recitation tomorrow so am going to bed, I'll get to your other point tomorrow, technically later today.

[JK17]

no he isn't, greatness for a coach is only reflective of a team's playing great, not of their opposition succumbing to them.

So why can't a con artists pulling off a good con, but his opposition not succumbing reflect as greatness for him? It can't be that way for one and not the other. Although its kind of a silly comparison to begin with.

Still though, explain how greatness and classiness are the same thing.

[someone447]

no he isn't, greatness for a coach is only reflective of a team's playing great, not of their opposition succumbing to them.

This has been fun but I've got an early recitation tomorrow so am going to bed, I'll get to your other point tomorrow, technically later today.

If a tea doesn't win, they will never be considered great. Do you think the Bills of the mid 90s were great? No, they were never the best team in the league, so how could they be great. Greatness for a coach is reflected in his wins and losses.

[someone447]

So why can't a con artists pulling off a good con, but his opposition not succumbing reflect as greatness for him? It can't be that way for one and not the other. Although its kind of a silly comparison to begin with.

Still though, explain how greatness and classiness are the same thing.

Of course it is a silly comparison. It was meant as an argument ad absurdum. I had to make it even more absurd by bringing in Hitler, because he just didn't see my point.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

look guys i'm going to apologize and hope you'll just forget this, I clearly misjudged you guys and didn't realize that you wouldn't understand my ideas at their core, and they're so cripplingly hard to explain. Really to understand them you'd have to understand me train of thought, and if you could understand my train of thought you'd have had the same train of thought yourself already. I was trying to explain that the drive to achieve the heroic in man is the ultimate morality but oh well. If the world thought as I did i'd love the whole world. It's a simple misunderstanding of terms, but due to the confines of the english language we're forced into this misunderstanding.

You guys seem in agreement that a great act needs to be acknowledged as great for it to truly be great, this is such a vital contradiction to my point that we might as well stop arguing, if i've failed to convince you of that already then i'll continue to fail to get you guys to see my point, so let's just stop this argument. Let's just assume I was stirring the pot just cause i was high, i'm bored now and want to go to sleep so shall we acknowledge that was fun argument and end it?

[someone447]

look guys i'm going to apologize and hope you'll just forget this, I clearly misjudged you guys and didn't realize that you wouldn't understand my ideas at their core, and they're so cripplingly hard to explain. Really to understand them you'd have to understand me train of thought, and if you could understand my train of thought you'd have had the same train of thought yourself already. I was trying to explain that the drive to achieve the heroic in man is the ultimate morality but oh well. If the world thought as I did i'd love the whole world. It's a simple misunderstanding of terms, but due to the confines of the english language we're forced into this misunderstanding.

You guys seem in agreement that a great act needs to be acknowledged as great for it to truly be great, this is such a vital contradiction to my point that we might as well stop arguing, if i've failed to convince you of that already then i'll continue to fail to get you guys to see my point, so let's just stop this argument. Let's just assume I was stirring the pot just cause i was high, i'm bored now and want to go to sleep so shall we acknowledge that was fun argument and end it?

I understand exactly what you are saying. I am just saying that you are misdefining morality. In fact, I agree with almost everything you are saying. I think achieving greatness far outweighs being a moral person. However, they are two completely separate ideas.

You are the one who was saying that a con artist relied on other people to be great. I only said that he didn't rely on others anymore than a coach relied on others.

[BlindSite]

The most successful sporting team over the last decades outside of the NFL is probably the Australian Cricket team. Hell, over the last two decades no nation in the world has realistically been able to match Australia when at full strength.

Part of the reason is their demeanor when playing.

When asked about his strategy former captain Steve Waugh said its simple "you put your foot on their throat and never let up"

The same should be done in all sports. You play till the whistle. You don't let up to nurse egos.

[someone447]

The most successful sporting team over the last decades outside of the NFL is probably the Australian Cricket team. Hell, over the last two decades no nation in the world has realistically been able to match Australia when at full strength.

Part of the reason is their demeanor when playing.

When asked about his strategy former captain Steve Waugh said its simple "you put your foot on their throat and never let up"

The same should be done in all sports. You play till the whistle. You don't let up to nurse egos.

That wasn't the question of the thread...

However, going for it on 4th down when up by a lot isn't right. If it was common practice to go for it on 4th down, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it isn't. It is like stealing bases while up by 10 runs, you just don't do it.

[BlindSite]

Why not?

The point is, if the defense can't stop you on 4th down, then you go for it.

How often does a coach get an opportunity to see what his team can do on fourth down against someone else other than the scout defense and not have the game on the line?

[someone447]

Why not?

The point is, if the defense can't stop you on 4th down, then you go for it.

How often does a coach get an opportunity to see what his team can do on fourth down against someone else other than the scout defense and not have the game on the line?

Because the goal of the game is not to embarrass the other team. I have no problem with leaving your starters in(although I think it is stupid and just asking for a cheap shot, I don't think it is wrong.) If it was a close game and you would have ANY question about going for it at that time, you kick it when you are that far ahead.

[BlindSite]

The goal of the game is to win.

Not to worry about the public face of another team.

This is football, this isn't ballet, or modeling or some other pseudo competition where it matters how the other team is feeling.

When the clock is still showing any amount of time left, its your job to score and to stop the other team from scoring.

THATS IT.

[umphrey]

I don't see how this is even a debate, he is obviously one of the most classless coaches in the league. Whether you want to argue if he's a good coach or whatever is different, but no doubt he is a classless jerk.

-Cheating
-Running up the score. Not a "is he doing it" but a "how bad is it" debate. Personally I'm fine with trying to score the entire game, but I draw the line at going for it on fourth down and passing downfield when up by more than 3 scores deep into the fourth quarter.
-Injury report: How does everyone just seem to let it go that Brady has been listed with a shoulder injury for several years now? Belicheck is clearly just making a mockery of the injury report, its just disrespectful.

I may be wrong but I can't think of a single coach that does any of these.

Also just the way his team plays, the Wilfork hit for example. I would think that that mentality comes from the coaching staff to some degree, and while it may or may not be encouraged, I doubt it is discouraged like it should be.

[SenorGato]

He's getting paid to win football games not be Mr. Congeniality.

But he's so mean about it scoring all those points.

[MikeIsGood]

Greatness and morality are not the same thing. By your definition, Hitler was moral.[/B]

I enjoyed reading both sides of this interesting thread, but Adolf Hitler was indeed whom I thought of in response the the original argument as a reductio ad absurdum to the argument's structure (for any possible philosophy enthusiasts). Most notably, from very early in this thread, the following definitions of class: "The integrity to accomplish the greatest you can," "for him to be classy he's got to accomplish greatness in his life's pursuit, aka football. He does that perfectly. I consider that true class." There were many rejoinders as the discussion went on, which added to it being interesting. There are many things that would have to be further defined and clarified for argumentative purposes for it to continue, I think. What is a great act? You can judge it in the grand sense (in terms of difficulty to accomplish, scale, etc.), or in terms of being morally "good" or "bad." I'm not applying this to the Patriot's success, but mentioning it in a broad sense. Anyways, I don't post a whole lot but I just wanted to say good read. I wasn't expecting to come across this.

To throw it out there, I wanted to reinforce what many have said that he's an incredible coach. I'll leave it at that.

[someone447]

I enjoyed reading both sides of this interesting thread, but Adolf Hitler was indeed whom I thought of in response the the original argument as a reductio ad absurdum to the argument's structure (for any possible philosophy enthusiasts). Most notably, from very early in this thread, the following definitions of class: "The integrity to accomplish the greatest you can," "for him to be classy he's got to accomplish greatness in his life's pursuit, aka football. He does that perfectly. I consider that true class." There were many rejoinders as the discussion went on, which added to it being interesting. There are many things that would have to be further defined and clarified for argumentative purposes for it to continue, I think. What is a great act? You can judge it in the grand sense (in terms of difficulty to accomplish, scale, etc.), or in terms of being morally "good" or "bad." I'm not applying this to the Patriot's success, but mentioning it in a broad sense. Anyways, I don't post a whole lot but I just wanted to say good read. I wasn't expecting to come across this.

To throw it out there, I wanted to reinforce what many have said that he's an incredible coach. I'll leave it at that.

Hitler was also the first person I thought of, but I didn't want to sound trite.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

I understand exactly what you are saying. I am just saying that you are misdefining morality. In fact, I agree with almost everything you are saying. I think achieving greatness far outweighs being a moral person. However, they are two completely separate ideas.

You are the one who was saying that a con artist relied on other people to be great. I only said that he didn't rely on others anymore than a coach relied on others.

I am disagreeing with the definition of morality. No man can live by any moral
code save his own, if everyone's morals were based on the morals of the group then who actually would have morals? An individual can't have morals b/c the group must grant him a set of morals to adopt but the group can't give anyone a set of morals if the group consists of people who submit themselves
to the public will. Somewhere someone has to have his own moral code and I think the only solution is for everyone to have their own moral code.
And my personnel belief is that man's ultimate goal is to create
something great, something efficient and effective in one's
chosen passion. Thus to me achieving that greatness is the ultimate moral pursuit and so all morality stems from that pursuit. I believe classiness is a dedication to one's morals and so think brlicheck is classy.

[osi+ap=allshallperish]

Hitler was also the first person I thought of, but I didn't want to sound trite.

whatgreatness did Hitler accomplish? He stood for a general will of a destraught people, but these people didn't stand by their own will and each submitted to the hysteria brought upon them. These people betrayed their souls, for lack of a better term, and what did Hitler accomplish? He enslaved the souls which had already corrupted themselves, he was entirely dependent on these people continuing to betray themselves to him, he was the ultimate parasite. He acheived nothing save becoming the most vile sort of parasite without a host he would have accomplished nothing and history would never have known his name nor should it have.

[kennyb]

I think he's a classy guy, somewhat.

AS far as "cheating", I don't think he would have done it if he thought it was cut and dried against the rules. There are other ways to accomplish the SAME thing without breaking the rules. You could have two or three guys with binoculars taking notes as to what they were seeing...you could FILM the defensive signals from the coaches box...he may have been upset that the Dolphins taped the NE audibles and used it to beat NE last year 21-0 or something....it was ruled "within the rules". So he thought he'd push the letter of the law...letter says can't tape to use in "a game", but if they meant ALL GAMES they just would have said "can't tape". He was arguing that since they didn't use it in the same game they taped, it was OK.

Besides, they change and obfuscate signals all the time. Defenses are changed on a game to game basis. It's hard to see how this would help.

BB is classy in that he respects his players and they seem to like him. Moss has gone from troubled to very happy...how do you explain that?

He never "blew off a handshake" of anyone. Except maybe Mangini. He CALLED Manning before the superbowl to wish him luck. That's classy.

He goes with Jim Brown to speak to prisoners and tries to give them hope. Jim Brown thinks that is classy. He doesn't have to do it.

He never "ran up the score". Dallas called a time out...if they hadn't the Pats could have kneeled to end the game. For some reason, Dallas wanted to get the ball back even though it would only be with 25 seconds or so. Instead the Pats ran 1 play up the middle, giving a 2nd year guy a chance to score his first NFL touchdown. How mean!

Many apparently don't know that the Pats have basically no back up QB. their backup, Cassel, hasn't started a game SINCE HIGH SCHOOL. Did you know that? He's an interception machine. They should have thrown in the interception machine against Miami, after all they were up 35 points! They did, he threw an int for TD on his first series. I mean, that's a sure win, right? Same day, Houston comes back from 35 down in the 4th quarter. So which is it?

Players need practice...you can't have them thinking that games are only 2 1/2 quarters long and then they'll get to rest as they "put in the backups". What happens when they have a tough game? They won't be prepared to play into the 4th quarter. Besides NFL rules have ONLY 45 players dressing. There aren't "backups" for every position.

He is kind of a curmedgeon in that he doesn't care what other people think about him...he's focused on his job, that's it. Doesn't have an ego for the limelight, doesn't want to be invited to meet fancy people...I don't know if that's "classy", kind of different, in a refreshing way, actually.

[JK17]

I am disagreeing with the definition of morality. No man can live by any moral
code save his own, if everyone's morals were based on the morals of the group then who actually would have morals? An individual can't have morals b/c the group must grant him a set of morals to adopt but the group can't give anyone a set of morals if the group consists of people who submit themselves
to the public will. Somewhere someone has to have his own moral code and I think the only solution is for everyone to have their own moral code.
And my personnel belief is that man's ultimate goal is to create
something great, something efficient and effective in one's
chosen passion. Thus to me achieving that greatness is the ultimate moral pursuit and so all morality stems from that pursuit. I believe classiness is a dedication to one's morals and so think brlicheck is classy.

But what you're doing there is taking a word and giving it a definition it doesn't mean. I can say to me, murder is helping your neighbor. I support murder. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. What your describing is a person's accomplishing of a goal, which is an enirely different thing from being classy. When it comes to accomplishing goals, few are better then BB. When it comes to being classy or a class act, BB is hardly that. The real question would be how much does that matter...

whatgreatness did Hitler accomplish? He stood for a general will of a destraught people, but these people didn't stand by their own will and each submitted to the hysteria brought upon them. These people betrayed their souls, for lack of a better term, and what did Hitler accomplish? He enslaved the souls which had already corrupted themselves, he was entirely dependent on these people continuing to betray themselves to him, he was the ultimate parasite. He acheived nothing save becoming the most vile sort of parasite without a host he would have accomplished nothing and history would never have known his name nor should it have.

What he was working on achieving though, however wrong it may have been, was what he considered right. Therefore it was his passion he was chasing, which would counter the argument that all you need to be classy is to try and accomplish what you think is right. Also you keep neglecting the same argument for a coach. Like you said Hitler would be dependent on people "betraying their souls to him", what would a coach be if his team didn't give their coach their complete dedication and commitment. The coach is also dependent on his players, thats the thing wtih the NFL. Everyone is dependent on each other...You can't win with just talent or with just coaching. I'd try to stay away from Hitler refrences though personally...usually they end up in taking an argument out of context and threads get locked, infractions handed out...etc.

[someone447]

whatgreatness did Hitler accomplish? He stood for a general will of a destraught people, but these people didn't stand by their own will and each submitted to the hysteria brought upon them. These people betrayed their souls, for lack of a better term, and what did Hitler accomplish? He enslaved the souls which had already corrupted themselves, he was entirely dependent on these people continuing to betray themselves to him, he was the ultimate parasite. He acheived nothing save becoming the most vile sort of parasite without a host he would have accomplished nothing and history would never have known his name nor should it have.

He made Germany the most powerful nation in the world. What he did was undeniably great, even if it was completely vile. Genghis Khan was also great, yet vile.

You are wrong with your definition of morality. Period. There is no arguing that. I showed you the definition, it does not match your definition, therefore, you are wrong. Like I said earlier, achieving greatness may trump your moral code, but it is not your moral code.

But, for the sake of argument, if that was his moral code, he would be considered a sociopath.

[Turtlepower]

How the hell was Hitler brought up into the conversation? This is just getting stupid.

[someone447]

I'd try to stay away from Hitler refrences though personally...usually they end up in taking an argument out of context and threads get locked, infractions handed out...etc.

The difference between this and other threads is that I am not comparing anyone to Hitler. I am only taking his argument to a logical extreme, which is in no ways against the rules.

[someone447]

I think he's a classy guy, somewhat.

AS far as "cheating", I don't think he would have done it if he thought it was cut and dried against the rules. There are other ways to accomplish the SAME thing without breaking the rules. You could have two or three guys with binoculars taking notes as to what they were seeing...you could FILM the defensive signals from the coaches box...he may have been upset that the Dolphins taped the NE audibles and used it to beat NE last year 21-0 or something....it was ruled "within the rules". So he thought he'd push the letter of the law...letter says can't tape to use in "a game", but if they meant ALL GAMES they just would have said "can't tape". He was arguing that since they didn't use it in the same game they taped, it was OK.

Besides, they change and obfuscate signals all the time. Defenses are changed on a game to game basis. It's hard to see how this would help.

BB is classy in that he respects his players and they seem to like him. Moss has gone from troubled to very happy...how do you explain that?



He never "ran up the score". Dallas called a time out...if they hadn't the Pats could have kneeled to end the game. For some reason, Dallas wanted to get the ball back even though it would only be with 25 seconds or so. Instead the Pats ran 1 play up the middle, giving a 2nd year guy a chance to score his first NFL touchdown. How mean!

Many apparently don't know that the Pats have basically no back up QB. their backup, Cassel, hasn't started a game SINCE HIGH SCHOOL. Did you know that? He's an interception machine. They should have thrown in the interception machine against Miami, after all they were up 35 points! They did, he threw an int for TD on his first series. I mean, that's a sure win, right? Same day, Houston comes back from 35 down in the 4th quarter. So which is it?

Players need practice...you can't have them thinking that games are only 2 1/2 quarters long and then they'll get to rest as they "put in the backups". What happens when they have a tough game? They won't be prepared to play into the 4th quarter. Besides NFL rules have ONLY 45 players dressing. There aren't "backups" for every position.

He is kind of a curmedgeon in that he doesn't care what other people think about him...he's focused on his job, that's it. Doesn't have an ego for the limelight, doesn't want to be invited to meet fancy people...I don't know if that's "classy", kind of different, in a refreshing way, actually.

It was definitely cheating, if it was borderline, the NFL would not have punished them so severely. He knew damn well he was breaking the rules. You are naive if you believe they weren't breaking that film down by halftime and using it in the second half.

He blew off Mangini, that is completely classless.

When you go for it on 4th down up by 20+ you are running up the score. When you throw downfield with your starters when you are up by 20+ you are running up the score. I have no problem playing your starters, but you rein in the offense, you run a lot more, and when you pass you throw just long enough for the first down.

If your backup sucks, JUST RUN THE BALL and don't take chances downfield.

[someone447]

How the hell was Hitler brought up into the conversation? This is just getting stupid.

Because osi stated that achieving ones goals make someone classy. So I took his definition to the logical extreme, that by his definition, Hitler would be classy. Since he wasn't responding to us giving definitions, I had to show him how is argument was completely absurd. It was an reductio ad absurdum.

[Addict]

He's not classy, but he doens't need to be. He wins games and superbowl rings.

In today's NFL, when it comes to winning, the 'how' doesn't matter, just the 'what'

[comahan]

Hes a good heel. Lacks charisma though.

[Ewing]

Hes a good heel. Lacks charisma though.

There's only one man who can put him in his place...

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAHF154_8x10-No350~Iron-Sheik-Posters.jpg

BREAK HIS BACK AND MAKE HIM HUMBLE!

[RCAChainGang]

Because osi stated that achieving ones goals make someone classy. So I took his definition to the logical extreme, that by his definition, Hitler would be classy. Since he wasn't responding to us giving definitions, I had to show him how is argument was completely absurd. It was an reductio ad absurdum.

I was thinking the exact thing about his definition. Hitler apparently has "class" according to Osi. Its not stupid to mention him, because half the world was against him, but he did extraordinary things. Osi thinks if you do great things and become the best then your classy; Hitler was one of the best dictators in history.

My opinion is somewhat agreeable. To have class you do have to good at what you do. Yet, you need to have good sportsmanship and it doesn't include cheating, refusing to shake hands, or letting your team mock the other. Respect the other team win or lose.

Belichick is a great coach, but when he loses in big games he reminds me of when I was 5 playing soccer. After we beat a team they had spit on there hands and passed in the handshakes. Belichick isn't far from that.

[RCAChainGang]

How the hell was Hitler brought up into the conversation? This is just getting stupid.

Go read Osi's explanation for class -.-

[Geo]

The Rat Bastard wouldn't have class if he went back to school. He is who he is.

Also, I'm sick and tired of Brady whining his Golden Boy ass off to the refs with every play.

[RCAChainGang]

HAHA Geo capped it off! :D

[619]

i dont care if a coach has class or not as long as he shows up to work everyday, gives it all hes got and gets the job done and bill does that better than anyone in the business

[RCAChainGang]

i dont care if a coach has class or not as long as he shows up to work everyday, gives it all hes got and gets the job done and bill does that better than anyone in the business

Thats not the discussion... We all know he is a great coach.

[P-L]

Thats not the discussion... We all know he is a great coach.
I think "does class matter" is a better discussion than "does Belichick have class." I think it's already established that Bill isn't a "nice guy."

[JK17]

I think "does class matter" is a better discussion than "does Belichick have class." I think it's already established that Bill isn't a "nice guy."

Then in terms of "does class matter" I'll try to get a discussion started on that...

I would say it does to a degree and Bellichek is a prime example. For a lot of people Bellichek carries a huge negative connotation. He's considered a douche by a lot of people, which hurts his image by the media at times, and the public's perception of him.

However, look at how much New England's fanbase and the success of the team skyrocketed with his success. After all, he doesn't have to keep fans in San Diego or Indianapolis happy in order to be successful for the organization. While other organizations may be insulted with the way he treats other teams/players, it really does not matter, as is evidenced because his fan base will keep showing up strong and supporting the team as long as he is winning, making it a profitable organization.

Therefore, in terms of being a good coach, no, it doesn't matter at all. But then by that token, its perfectly okay to hate Bellichek, with no other reason then just the kind of guy he is.

It's also probably important to note though, if Bellichek was losing, class would matter a great deal. A team and its fanbase will never be forgiving of a losing coach, but they would certianly condemn a classless coach much sooner then they would a coach who does have class. I guess in conclusion, I would say class doesn't matter in terms of being successful, but if you aren't successful, you'll be thrown out a hell of a lot faster then you would if you weren't a douchebag coach. Personally I don't see a need to not show class, its common courtesy, but I'm not ignorant enough to think everyone who doesn't show class will be criticized for it. Also, its harder to get a level of respect as a coach if you show no respect to others, but still, if you're winning, who knows how much that matters...

[someone447]

I think "does class matter" is a better discussion than "does Belichick have class." I think it's already established that Bill isn't a "nice guy."

Like I said somewhere else in this thread. The ends justify the means. I may hate Belichick for it, but there is no arguing with his success. I would rather be hated by most, and loved by a few while being successful than loved by most, hated by few, and toiling in mediocrity.