PDA

View Full Version : $30 million under the cap according to Gruden


JAlexander
11-25-2007, 09:44 AM
"Some people don't understand we have $30 million under the cap next year," Gruden said. "... Anybody that you can send a message to in your newspaper, that's interested in joining us, we will definitely be interested."

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/nov/25/sp-this-season-about-passion-pride-and-winning-for/?sports-bucs

And they still have the $15 million to use this year, but I think the deadline to use it is coming up. I think you could see long term extensions for Ruud, Joseph and Trueblood soon. They're all still a few years away from free agency but its easier to sign them the further away from free agency they are.

Notable Free Agents that would be good for us...
DE Justin Smith, put him on the ther side of Adams
DE Jared Allen, good player but the off-field issues are worrisome.
DE Terrell Suggs
CB Nnamdi Asomugha, Barber and Kelly are getting old and Kelly barely plays anyway.
DT Albery Haynesworth. I'd be careful, he has Sean Gilbert written all over him.

Lee Evans and Tommie Harris are both Free Agents after 2008. I think Harris will re-sign with the Bears before he hits FA but I think Lee Evans is going to test the market and he would be the PERFECT replacement for Galloway.

Chucky
11-25-2007, 10:19 AM
Jared Allen would be number 1 choice, He would give us a great pass rush, Terrel Suggs would also be very interesting, I just dont no if he can be a full time DE

etk
11-25-2007, 10:23 AM
Smith or Allen would be terrific LEs. Suggs is the most high-impact of the three but he projects more to the right side. The other 2 are better against the run and I don't want our defensive line to look like the Rams'.
Asomugha would be great, moving Buchanon to nickel and ending the Kelly era. I've always been intrigued as to having a big corner because of how intimidating Bolden looked on the field (too bad he sucked).
Once again, Haynesworth would be exactly the stuffer we need at NT. He would also help Gaines because he pushes the pocket so well.

Getting any of those guys would step our defense up to the next level IMO. I'd prefer drafting a CB and signing defensive lineman, so Smith, Allen & Haynesworth should be the targets.

etk
11-25-2007, 10:24 AM
Jared Allen would be number 1 choice, He would give us a great pass rush, Terrel Suggs would also be very interesting, I just dont no if he can be a full time DE

Allen is also tremendous in run support and pursuit. He's my number 1 as well, just ahead of Haynesworth. Exactly on Suggs.

Chucky
11-25-2007, 10:28 AM
I am very excited for this offseason, My prediction is that we win our first playoff game and then lose to GB/DAL, and then we can build on our progress in the offseason, and even having the luxury of spending our 2nd/3rd rounder on the likes of Erik Ainge who we can develop, or even taking one of the big 3 QB's if they happen to fall. And then being big players in the free agent market.

BucSappy
11-25-2007, 10:00 PM
Greg White has been playing pretty damn good, I really don't think we need an upgrade there, we could use one for depth but I say lets keep Kevin Carter, Spires will retire, and we draft a LDE in 2009.

I think we could use an upgrade at wide receiver. Bryant Johnson or Patrick Crayton would be able to step in and I don't think we would need to draft a receiver.

Michael Turner is an option. He is going to be expensive, but he would be great to start the season with and then he and Cadillac would destroy with the OL we have.

I would like an upgrade at center but it doesn't look like there are a lot of options for us in the market.

Haynesworth will be too expensive for us considering what we already have and I don't think an upgrade at DT is necessary, we could get better bang for out buck with the options i mentioned above imo. A less expensive option might be Tommy Kelly DL from Oakland. 6'6 300 I think he would be great for us, but Jovan Haye is playing great and Greg Peterson and Ryan Sims are flashing their potential so I think we don't need to sign a DT.

bearsfan_51
11-25-2007, 10:01 PM
Just so you know, the deadline to use this year's cap money has passed.

BucSappy
11-25-2007, 10:04 PM
Can we trade salary cap to another team to move up higher in the draft or acquire another pick?

Chucky
11-25-2007, 10:05 PM
Greg White has been playing pretty damn good, I really don't think we need an upgrade there, we could use one for depth but I say lets keep Kevin Carter, Spires will retire, and we draft a LDE in 2009.

I think we could use an upgrade at wide receiver. Bryant Johnson or Patrick Crayton would be able to step in and I don't think we would need to draft a receiver.

Michael Turner is an option. He is going to be expensive, but he would be great to start the season with and then he and Cadillac would destroy with the OL we have.

I would like an upgrade at center but it doesn't look like there are a lot of options for us in the market.

Haynesworth will be too expensive for us considering what we already have and I don't think an upgrade at DT is necessary, we could get better bang for out buck with the options i mentioned above imo

Crayton or johnson wouldnt do much for us, we really need a player who we can groom as our future number 1 once galloway moves on. Greg White still has a whole lot to prove before we disregard LDE as a need. Michael Turner would be interesting, but I would probably rather have a felix jones with our first roud pick than break the bank on turner. Also Graham has looked great so i think its unfair to completely right him off, a healthy caddilac and graham woudl be a very good tandem

Moses
11-25-2007, 10:07 PM
Can we trade salary cap to another team to move up higher in the draft or acquire another pick?

Ummmmm...no.

Tampa 2 4 life
11-25-2007, 10:30 PM
Wait, why do we want Haynesworth?

etk
11-26-2007, 10:56 AM
Greg White has been playing pretty damn good, I really don't think we need an upgrade there, we could use one for depth but I say lets keep Kevin Carter, Spires will retire, and we draft a LDE in 2009.

I think we could use an upgrade at wide receiver. Bryant Johnson or Patrick Crayton would be able to step in and I don't think we would need to draft a receiver.

Michael Turner is an option. He is going to be expensive, but he would be great to start the season with and then he and Cadillac would destroy with the OL we have.

I would like an upgrade at center but it doesn't look like there are a lot of options for us in the market.

Haynesworth will be too expensive for us considering what we already have and I don't think an upgrade at DT is necessary, we could get better bang for out buck with the options i mentioned above imo. A less expensive option might be Tommy Kelly DL from Oakland. 6'6 300 I think he would be great for us, but Jovan Haye is playing great and Greg Peterson and Ryan Sims are flashing their potential so I think we don't need to sign a DT.

Keep Kevin Carter? Have you gone mental? He's so slow he can't even move on the field. We have to cut ties with him. Spires is about equally as useless. He's gone downhill fast. That leaves us with Greg White, Gaines Adams & Patrick Chukwurah. All 3 of those guys are natural RDEs in our system. We need to draft a LDE in the first 3 rounds if we don't sign a high-impact FA.

Bryant Johnson and Patrick Crayton are not good options at WR. Until Stovall proves his worth, we need someone who can go vertical. Crayton doesn't really bring much to the table besides being another Ike Hilliard, and Johnson sucks.

Turner would rush for at least 1300 in our offense. He would be fantastic, but we'd have to trade Caddy to make it worthwhile.

We need another NT. Our UT situation is fine and loaded with young talent, but Hovan is declining. There's no use signing someone to upgrade him, but another draft pick could do the trick. I'm not in favor of signing Tommy Kelly, his reputation is one of suckage. Ask any Raiders fan.

JAlexander
11-26-2007, 12:07 PM
Bryant Johnson definitely doesn't suck. When he got the chance to start last year he put up some good production.

Caddy
11-26-2007, 06:00 PM
Bryant Johnson definitely doesn't suck. When he got the chance to start last year he put up some good production.

The same type of production we can get from our very own Ike Hilliard.

BucSappy
11-26-2007, 06:42 PM
The same type of production we can get from our very own Ike Hilliard.

But Johnson is like 7-8 years younger.

JAlexander
11-26-2007, 07:07 PM
He's only 5 years younger, but he's more explosive. And yesterday he made an unbelievable catch at the end of the game.

etk
11-26-2007, 07:09 PM
But Johnson is like 7-8 years younger.

And how much younger would a draft pick be compared to Johnson? We don't need to sign receivers, we need to draft them.

BucSappy
11-27-2007, 04:39 AM
And how much younger would a draft pick be compared to Johnson? We don't need to sign receivers, we need to draft them.

Whats the difference? We get a young receiver in Hackett, then we can focus elsewhere in the first round. We can then freely take a LT or DT in the draft (assumming one of the big 3 QBs doesn't fall to us) and it really enhance the value of our football team.

I mean I can't even imagine how much better our defense would be with a huge, athletic player like Pat Sims at DT. And once Gaines develops into a premier DE, it would be probably be a better DL than when we won the SB.

Plus, remember Gruden prefers veterans to rookies offensively, and the signing of Turner and Hackett make a lot of sense.

etk
11-27-2007, 09:19 AM
Whats the difference? We get a young receiver in Hackett, then we can focus elsewhere in the first round. We can then freely take a LT or DT in the draft (assumming one of the big 3 QBs doesn't fall to us) and it really enhance the value of our football team.

I mean I can't even imagine how much better our defense would be with a huge, athletic player like Pat Sims at DT. And once Gaines develops into a premier DE, it would be probably be a better DL than when we won the SB.

Plus, remember Gruden prefers veterans to rookies offensively, and the signing of Turner and Hackett make a lot of sense.

It doesn't make sense to sign a receiver unless it's a young promising future star. DJ Hackett is an average WCO receiver. We need to add some true weapons to develop and throw to and the best way to do that will be in the draft. Don't BS me with the Gruden prefers vets line. He drafted Clayton int he 1st and he was our #1 as a rookie, then we drafted Maurice in the 3rd. We've also drafted a ton of late round receivers: Brackins, Russell, Warren, etc. Gruden loves young receivers.

BucSappy
11-27-2007, 10:08 AM
It doesn't make sense to sign a receiver unless it's a young promising future star. DJ Hackett is an average WCO receiver. We need to add some true weapons to develop and throw to and the best way to do that will be in the draft. Don't BS me with the Gruden prefers vets line. He drafted Clayton int he 1st and he was our #1 as a rookie, then we drafted Maurice in the 3rd. We've also drafted a ton of late round receivers: Brackins, Russell, Warren, etc. Gruden loves young receivers.

If Gruden "loves" young receivers so much then why didn't he ever use Maurice Stovall, who had a great TC and preseason. It was just ridiculous I mean I really think Stovall slept with Gruden's wife or something. Stovall deserves touches and he produced last year when he got touches.

I really see what you are saying. You want a stud young WR and I definately respect that. But think about this.

From the way Joey Galloway is running, and the physical shape he is in, I'd say he has a good 2 more years in the NFL. Hilliard has 2 more good years in the NFL. Who knows if Stovall busts or becomes a complete star. I realize Hackett isn't a great WR, but he does make a lot of big plays and I think he can play the role as the third wideout really well. Will he ever be a #1 for us? Probably not.

But I don't think you understand how much of an upgrade Pat Sims would be for our defense. I know we have a lot of young talent on our team, but we are aging a little bit. Hovan is good, but he isn't great. Jovan Haye is a liability vs. the run, and Sims is a better pass rusher than he is. He would be a monster for us and I think you need to realize how a big upgrade for us at a position like DT would be huge for our football team.

I mean if we ended up taking a LT in round 1, say a player like Alex Boone from Ohio State or Sam Baker from USC, then that gives us a lot of insurance on the OL. Petigout has been injured a lot over his career.

The thing with drafting a WR in round 1 as opposed to signing DJ Hackett, is that it gives us more flexibility in the draft. It gives us more options. I mean I just don't really see how WR is a huge need for us going into the 2008 season. We can sign Hackett and then draft a slot, speedy WR in round 3-5.

etk
11-27-2007, 04:57 PM
Okay, Pat Sims man crush aside, I see what you're saying. The draft flexibility point is a good one. WR is by no means the be-all-end-all of our draft but it is definitely a position to strongly consider. The way it looks right now I would only spend a 1st on a WR if DeSean Jackson falls to our spot. There are plenty of other options available for us. We could wait a year before drafting a WR, but the same could be said for QB, OL, DT, etc. I want us to emphasize value in this draft.

We only utilize 4 receivers during the season. That leaves us with Joey, Ike, Maurice & one other. I'm not opposed to signing Hackett to a short-term deal because I've seen his capabilities on the Seahawks. I am, however, not sure if I would support the idea of adding too many options and compromising the futures of Stovall & a draft pick for older guys. Another thing: I agree that we
need to draft a speedy WR, but it doesn't make sense anymore to draft a slot
WR like Douglas or Avery. They don't really fit the mold of a WCO receiver. The guys I like as good fits are:

DJ Hall
Andre Caldwell
Darius Reynaud (may not be eligible)
Lance Leggett (hands are a problem)
Jason Rivers

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 12:57 AM
Okay, Pat Sims man crush aside, I see what you're saying. The draft flexibility point is a good one. WR is by no means the be-all-end-all of our draft but it is definitely a position to strongly consider. The way it looks right now I would only spend a 1st on a WR if DeSean Jackson falls to our spot. There are plenty of other options available for us. We could wait a year before drafting a WR, but the same could be said for QB, OL, DT, etc. I want us to emphasize value in this draft.

We only utilize 4 receivers during the season. That leaves us with Joey, Ike, Maurice & one other. I'm not opposed to signing Hackett to a short-term deal because I've seen his capabilities on the Seahawks. I am, however, not sure if I would support the idea of adding too many options and compromising the futures of Stovall & a draft pick for older guys. Another thing: I agree that we
need to draft a speedy WR, but it doesn't make sense anymore to draft a slot
WR like Douglas or Avery. They don't really fit the mold of a WCO receiver. The guys I like as good fits are:

DJ Hall
Andre Caldwell
Darius Reynaud (may not be eligible)
Lance Leggett (hands are a problem)
Jason Rivers

I think you and ( now are for the most part on the same page. Like you I think it is very important to emphasize value in this draft, since we really don't have a lot of needs in the first place.

It truly came down to Donnie Avery, Andre Caldwell, Lavelle Hawkins, and Harry Douglas for me. But I feel like Avery has the best combination of athleticism and receiving skills.

I kind of disagree with you thought about if we are going to take a WR in round 1, then we should only take DeSean Jackson. Maybe Stovall isn't going to turn out to be the WR he was drafted to be. I certainly wouldn't mind us taking someone like James Hardy, Adarius Bowman, or Limas Sweed in round 1.

A sleeper WR I love in this draft is Steve Johnson from Kentucky. Made clutch play after clutch play for Kentucky this year and has improved his confidence, hands, route running, and he showed how great his YAC was. If he runs a 4.4-4.5 at the combine he could go as high as round 2.

But like I said, I would preferrably sign a WR in free agency simply because the FA market is pretty bare this year. No centers worth signing. Other than Albert Haynesworth I really don't see a big upgrade at DT for us that is worth the money (Paul Spicer would be an interesting fit for us at UT).

I think we can make the most of our cap by signing a big name such as Turner, we might overpay for him, but who else are we going to sign that fills a need for us?

A few WRs to consider in FA: Bernard Berrian, DJ Hackett, and Andre Davis (18.6 YPC).

dbtb135
11-28-2007, 07:18 AM
I mean I can't even imagine how much better our defense would be with a huge, athletic player like Pat Sims at DT. And once Gaines develops into a premier DE, it would be probably be a better DL than when we won the SB.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/WNT/abc_wn_webcast_football_070924_ms.jpg

THAT'S NOT TRUE!!!!! :D

Nothing beats an overachieving Chuck Darby, Greg Spires when he could rush the passer, madman Simeon, and a Warren Sapp with some prime still left in his tank.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 07:21 AM
Gaines Adams will be better than Simeon Rice was, especially versus the run.

Warren Sapp was a big name, but he was a little overrated in his last few years in Tampa. He didn't get a lot of sacks or pressures really. I mean he had that 10 sack season then dropped to like 5 for the next 2...am I right?

dbtb135
11-28-2007, 07:38 AM
Gaines Adams will be better than Simeon Rice was, especially versus the run.

Warren Sapp was a big name, but he was a little overrated in his last few years in Tampa. He didn't get a lot of sacks or pressures really. I mean he had that 10 sack season then dropped to like 5 for the next 2...am I right?

Rice was one heck of a pass rusher in his prime, and throughout most of his career. Saying Gaines will be better especially against the run is like saying Hines Ward is a better WR than Randy Moss because he blocks and goes over the middle. When one is as dominant in a big aspect of the game (and it doesn't get much bigger than pass rusher to a Cover 2 defense), you can't really make an argument that someone else is better because they are more well rounded.

I like Adams, I really do. I've been on the guy's bandwagon since before last season when it was "Quentin Moses or Gaines?" for the Bucs. He's my personal favorite on the entire Bucs team right now. But he's got a LOOOONG way to go before he gets on the level of Simeon, much less passes it. Just the way it is.

Sapp was still wreaking havoc the year we won the SB. The whole line just clicked. Sapp was a little overrated in 03 and on, though he still took up a good amount of double teams in 03, freeing up Rice, and still got some pressures and sacks. In 02, he was very, very good. He was 2nd in DTs with 7.5 sacks and I think another 2 in the playoffs. He was still doubled constantly. He got consistent pressure. He and Simeon tore through every line they face for a few stretches, including the playoffs. Anyone who doubts how good Sapp, or the line in general, was in 2002 wasn't paying attention. There's a reason why teams didn't really get close to beating us in the playoffs, and it was them.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 07:47 AM
Rice was one heck of a pass rusher in his prime, and throughout most of his career. Saying Gaines will be better especially against the run is like saying Hines Ward is a better WR than Randy Moss because he blocks and goes over the middle. When one is as dominant in a big aspect of the game (and it doesn't get much bigger than pass rusher to a Cover 2 defense), you can't really make an argument that someone else is better because they are more well rounded.

I like Adams, I really do. I've been on the guy's bandwagon since before last season when it was "Quentin Moses or Gaines?" for the Bucs. He's my personal favorite on the entire Bucs team right now. But he's got a LOOOONG way to go before he gets on the level of Simeon, much less passes it. Just the way it is.

Sapp was still wreaking havoc the year we won the SB. The whole line just clicked. Sapp was a little overrated in 03 and on, though he still took up a good amount of double teams in 03, freeing up Rice, and still got some pressures and sacks. In 02, he was very, very good. He was 2nd in DTs with 7.5 sacks and I think another 2 in the playoffs. He was still doubled constantly. He got consistent pressure. He and Simeon tore through every line they face for a few stretches, including the playoffs. Anyone who doubts how good Sapp, or the line in general, was in 2002 wasn't paying attention. There's a reason why teams didn't really get close to beating us in the playoffs, and it was them.

Gaines Adams is a great pass rushing talent. In fact, I am going to go far as to say I think he has more natural pass rushing skills than Simeon did. I mean this kid was an absolute terror at Clemson. And not only that, but he is getting the same coaching as a rookie that Simeon got during the middle of his career (Kiffen obv.) so maybe Gaines develops a little faster.

Now is he better than Simeon now. No of course not and he probably won't be for another 2-3 years. But I think like Gruden said he is "...on track to becoming a great DE in this league."

It takes time and it takes baby steps, and Gaines is actually surpassing my expectations this season as a player. He is so close on a lot of his sacks, but he is lacking that invaluable experience. I think Gaines has the talent to become the Bucs All Time sack leader. I didn't say it would happen, but he has the talent to do it.

dbtb135
11-28-2007, 08:07 AM
Gaines Adams is a great pass rushing talent. In fact, I am going to go far as to say I think he has more natural pass rushing skills than Simeon did. I mean this kid was an absolute terror at Clemson. And not only that, but he is getting the same coaching as a rookie that Simeon got during the middle of his career (Kiffen obv.) so maybe Gaines develops a little faster.

Simeon Rice was a beast at Illinois, better IMHO. Again, I was one of the main advocates for Gaines last year. I know what he's about. ALSO, Rice had a much better rookie year than Gaines without the coaching of Monte (or really anyone great at Arizona). Simeon, like Hovan and many others, also attribute a ton of their success here to Rod Marinelli who is not coaching Gaines Adams one step. Simeon came in here when we had Rod, Kiffin, Joe Barry, Mike Tomlin. Probably the best defensive coaching (maybe Monte, Rod, Lovie, Herm) we've ever had here. How can you even say that Gaines "maybe" develops a little faster when Rice was DROTY with 12.5 sacks, and Gaines is struggling to get 5 this year?

Now is he better than Simeon now. No of course not and he probably won't be for another 2-3 years. But I think like Gruden said he is "...on track to becoming a great DE in this league."

Gruden said a lot of great things about Clayton too, and that helped him nowhere. I'm not saying Gaines can't be a very good pass rusher in the NFL, but something a head coach says about his rookie top 5 pick is always going to be great even if the player isn't. You can't make that a basis of any point.

It takes time and it takes baby steps, and Gaines is actually surpassing my expectations this season as a player. He is so close on a lot of his sacks, but he is lacking that invaluable experience. I think Gaines has the talent to become the Bucs All Time sack leader. I didn't say it would happen, but he has the talent to do it.

Surpassing your expectations? You speak so highly of the guy, yet you basically didn't expect anything of him this year?

Again, this is making my head hurt. I, an admittedly huge fan of the guy, can admit he hasn't played that great this year. I've spent a lot of time on TBBB and PR arguing about how he should be given some time and that guys like Jason Taylor and Michael Strahan had pretty unimpressive rookie years before doing great things. But how can you say that he's surpassed expectations with his play, which has been so-so by and large, and his best games coming against depleted Arizona and Atlanta lines?

Gaines has very, very good athleticism. But Simeon had every bit of that and likely more.

You said he WILL be better than Simeon Rice was, so you kinda did say it would happen.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 08:32 AM
Surpassing your expectations? You speak so highly of the guy, yet you basically didn't expect anything of him this year?

Again, this is making my head hurt. I, an admittedly huge fan of the guy, can admit he hasn't played that great this year. I've spent a lot of time on TBBB and PR arguing about how he should be given some time and that guys like Jason Taylor and Michael Strahan had pretty unimpressive rookie years before doing great things. But how can you say that he's surpassed expectations with his play, which has been so-so by and large, and his best games coming against depleted Arizona and Atlanta lines?

Gaines has very, very good athleticism. But Simeon had every bit of that and likely more.

You said he WILL be better than Simeon Rice was, so you kinda did say it would happen.

DE is a tough position to play in the NFL. It is an even tougher position to learn. I don't measure how good a DE does by how many sacks he gets. Sometimes he forces pressure into another DL who gets the sack. Maybe I'm wrong but wasn't Simeon a senior when he entered the draft? If he was a senior than Gaines is one year ahead of him in the NFL. I am not sure on if Rice was a senior/junior in the NFL at all. I don't go that far back on my draftnik days.

I really didn't expect Gaines to play a lot this year since he was a rookie. I figured he would have the kind of year that Mario Williams had last year. Just a few sacks. A few good plays here and there but nothing special. I don't have big expectations for rookies. I expect to see brillance here and there but definately not consistently like guys such as Aaron Sears and Tanard Jackson.

When I watch Gaines play he just comes so quick off of the line its sick. He seems imo more talented than what I expected. Only game I saw of him in college was vs. Kentucky last year. (2 sacks in that game, disappeared in the 2nd half because defense was on the field a lot and Kentucky was in shotgun to neutralize the pass rush, got him tired).

dbtb135
11-28-2007, 08:57 AM
DE is a tough position to play in the NFL. It is an even tougher position to learn. I don't measure how good a DE does by how many sacks he gets. Sometimes he forces pressure into another DL who gets the sack. Maybe I'm wrong but wasn't Simeon a senior when he entered the draft? If he was a senior than Gaines is one year ahead of him in the NFL. I am not sure on if Rice was a senior/junior in the NFL at all. I don't go that far back on my draftnik days.

Pass rushing DEs develop quickly more often than not. Elvis Dumervil, Mark Anderson, Kam Wimbley, Tamba Hali, DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, the list goes on and on. This is something that is known, proven. Not a fact, that condemns Gaines to a bad career, but a majority situation. Sacks aren't the end all, be all. But Gaines hasn't gotten much more pressures than sacks. He's gotten in there a handful of times, but he's still well behind guys like Greg White and Jovan Haye in that category. In other words, his pressures haven't been anything to write home about either.

I really didn't expect Gaines to play a lot this year since he was a rookie. I figured he would have the kind of year that Mario Williams had last year. Just a few sacks. A few good plays here and there but nothing special. I don't have big expectations for rookies. I expect to see brillance here and there but definately not consistently like guys such as Aaron Sears and Tanard Jackson.

Gaines was going to see a lot of PT once Rice was gone and his only competition at RDE was Chukwurah, a situational rusher. Mario Williams played almost every down when he was healthy his rookie year.

When I watch Gaines play he just comes so quick off of the line its sick. He seems imo more talented than what I expected. Only game I saw of him in college was vs. Kentucky last year. (2 sacks in that game, disappeared in the 2nd half because defense was on the field a lot and Kentucky was in shotgun to neutralize the pass rush, got him tired).

I like Gaines' quickness, he has shown flashes. But again, he has a long way to go before he's in the Simeon level of "beating Pro Bowl LTs before they can even get halfway out of their stance". Simeon looked like he was shot out of a cannon most pass plays. Gaines has yet to come near that look, even with his great athleticism.

etk
11-28-2007, 10:33 AM
Gaines Adams will be better than Simeon Rice was, especially versus the run.



I can't believe my eyes. How long have you been a Bucs fan? I can't name one aspect of football where Gaines Adams has even showed glimpses of eclipsing Rice. He's not even close to Rice's talent and he never will be, that's a ridiculous
ultra-homerish comment if I've ever seen one.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 10:39 AM
I can't believe my eyes. How long have you been a Bucs fan? I can't name one aspect of football where Gaines Adams has even showed glimpses of eclipsing Rice. He's not even close to Rice's talent and he never will be, that's a ridiculous
ultra-homerish comment if I've ever seen one.

No it isn't. Adams was as ever bit the NFL prospect Simeon was when he came out. Adams was characterized as an elite college pass rusher. Not only that, but he has much more bulk on his frame than Simeon EVER did.

It isn't a homerish statement.

I mean did Rice ever play good versus the run? Ever? He was horrible. Pathetic. Worse than KGB. Adams has a much better body to hold up vs. the run, and Rice only cared about playing vs. the pass.

etk
11-28-2007, 10:51 AM
No it isn't. Adams was as ever bit the NFL prospect Simeon was when he came out. Adams was characterized as an elite college pass rusher. Not only that, but he has much more bulk on his frame than Simeon EVER did.

It isn't a homerish statement.

I mean did Rice ever play good versus the run? Ever? He was horrible. Pathetic. Worse than KGB. Adams has a much better body to hold up vs. the run, and Rice only cared about playing vs. the pass.

Adams is below-average against the run, but he can't get to the QB, so who cares. He plays RDE in our defense, and his job is to beat the LT to the QB. All those years with Rice playing in that spot we never had a problem stopping the run and having success on defense. Adams doesn't have close to the explosion Rice did off the snap. He also doesn't use his hands well like Rice or Greg White do. Rice single-handedly won games for us by beating All-Pro LTs and stripping the ball. Gaines can't even get pressure, let alone sacks. Rice worked very hard at conditioning and his craft and it showed on the field. Gaines will have to work doubly as hard since he doesn't have the natural talent Rice had.

Gaines Adams was not every bit the prospect Rice was. Rice was a two-time All American who set the Big Ten career sack record. He broke it by 8.5 sacks. He also had 16 sacks as a Junior. Rice had better measurables than Adams. He was faster, more explosive, and just a more natural pass rusher. Who cares about size? All of the best Cover 2 defenses have RDEs that suck against the run, because all the coaches care about is whether or not they get after the QB. Dwight Freeney & Mark Anderson are additional examples.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 10:56 AM
"Gaines can't even get pressure, let alone sacks."

Yeah, we should have taken Ted Ginn #4 overall. What were we thinking? We drafted a pass rush specialist #4 overall and he "canj't even get pressure, let alone sacks."

etk
11-28-2007, 10:59 AM
"Gaines can't even get pressure, let alone sacks."

Can't wait to throw this in your face 2 years from now.

I'd love to see Gaines become a pass rushing threat, but right now I don't see it.
White has better intangibles and technique and Haye has determination. Those 2 guys are getting more pressure than Adams. As previously stated, Rice had 12.5 sacks as a rookie. He has been a dominant pass rusher his whole football career. I don't just expect Gaines to come out of nowhere and blow up into a megastar. It doesn't happen very often. He can probably average 8 sacks a year for us, but we need more production that that from the RE spot to really have a dominant Tampa 2.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 11:03 AM
I'd love to see Gaines become a pass rushing threat, but right now I don't see it.
White has better intangibles and technique and Haye has determination. Those 2 guys are getting more pressure than Adams. As previously stated, Rice had 12.5 sacks as a rookie. He has been a dominant pass rusher his whole football career. I don't just expect Gaines to come out of nowhere and blow up into a megastar. It doesn't happen very often. He can probably average 8 sacks a year for us, but we need more production that that from the RE spot to really have a dominant Tampa 2.

Your not supposed to see it...You have way too high expectations for Gaines. Period. You expect him to come into the NFL and get 13 sacks, and if he doesn't, then he is nothing more than an 8 sack per year guy. Gee. Well, I guess Calvin Johnson is nothing more than an 800 yard per season kinda guy too.

Patience is a virtue. Rookies aren't supposed to come into the NFL and dominate. Especially at RDE like you said playing against a lot of talented left tackles.

etk
11-28-2007, 11:06 AM
Your not supposed to see it...You have way too high expectations for Gaines. Period. You expect him to come into the NFL and get 13 sacks, and if he doesn't, then he is nothing more than an 8 sack per year guy. Gee. Well, I guess Calvin Johnson is nothing more than an 800 yard per season kinda guy too.

Patience is a virtue. Rookies aren't supposed to come into the NFL and dominate. Especially at RDE like you said playing against a lot of talented left tackles.

I haven't seen the kind of flashes to get me excited. I don't have high expectations for him either. You weren't on the board yet, but going into the draft I said I don't think he'll be more than an above-average pass rusher. He hasn't proven me wrong. I approved of us picking him only because there was no one else to go for. I liked Okoye but Haye has turned out fine. I still wish we would've traded up for CJ, even if it cost us our 3 defensive stars (Adams, Piscitelli & Black, lol).

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 11:16 AM
I haven't seen the kind of flashes to get me excited. I don't have high expectations for him either. You weren't on the board yet, but going into the draft I said I don't think he'll be more than an above-average pass rusher. He hasn't proven me wrong. I approved of us picking him only because there was no one else to go for. I liked Okoye but Haye has turned out fine. I still wish we would've traded up for CJ, even if it cost us our 3 defensive stars (Adams, Piscitelli & Black, lol).

I see the talent. I see the explosiveness. It takes a while to be a great pass rusher in the NFL these days, especially for someone that played 8 man football 5 years ago.

And if we traded up for CJ it would have cost us Adams, Sears, and Piscitelli. We offered our #4 pick and #64 pick and they denied it.

Personally I'm glad we stood pat in our draft and ended up with the players we did. I think the draft went perfectly in my opinion. I mean I look back and there isn't a lot of players I would have past up for.

Adams, check. Sears, check. Piscitelli, look at the players drafted behind him and in my opinion it was a smart pick. Tanard Jackson, check. Quincy Black, check. And down the board it goes, even Greg Peterson was a steal imo.

Just let this rookie class develop. Be patient and relax. Have expectations but don't have too high of expectations. You want to see baby steps from Gaines and imo he has made those this year. He seems to improve each week and he gives a good effort.

etk
11-28-2007, 11:18 AM
I see the talent. I see the explosiveness. It takes a while to be a great pass rusher in the NFL these days, especially for someone that played 8 man football 5 years ago.

And if we traded up for CJ it would have cost us Adams, Sears, and Piscitelli. We offered our #4 pick and #64 pick and they denied it.

Personally I'm glad we stood pat in our draft and ended up with the players we did. I think the draft went perfectly in my opinion. I mean I look back and there isn't a lot of players I would have past up for.

Adams, check. Sears, check. Piscitelli, look at the players drafted behind him and in my opinion it was a smart pick. Tanard Jackson, check. Quincy Black, check. And down the board it goes, even Greg Peterson was a steal imo.

Just let this rookie class develop. Be patient and relax. Have expectations but don't have too high of expectations. You want to see baby steps from Gaines and imo he has made those this year. He seems to improve each week and he gives a good effort.

Sears, Jackson and Peterson were great picks. Adams was a check but we could've done better in trading up. We could've negotiated a trade for our second 2nd and our 3rd. We also could've offered future picks. I doubt Detroit would've turned that down.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 11:27 AM
Sears, Jackson and Peterson were great picks. Adams was a check but we could've done better in trading up. We could've negotiated a trade for our second 2nd and our 3rd. We also could've offered future picks. I doubt Detroit would've turned that down.

It was like Chris Mortensen said during the draft, "How can you continue to ignore your defense? We love throwing the ball we love quarterbacks, receivers, but you have to address the defense sometime or another."

From a need standpoint, I think Gaines was a better pick for us than CJ would have been, and when you consider he is the prototypical fit for the Tampa 2 defense at RDE it is a match made in heaven when you can keep your mid round picks and get some great players.

Also, trading future picks is a huge mistake unless your roster is stacked (like the Chargers and they can make big trades for Weddle and Chambers).

Only trade in NFL Draft history that I can remember when a team traded a future high draft pick and it seemed to have worked out for them is Indy last year getting Tony Ugoh and giving up their 08 first. He looks like a very good player for them at LT and it was certainly worth it. On the other hand (think abou this) San Fran gave up their 08 first for Joe Staley, when they could have kept that pick and then drafted Ugoh with their 2nd round pick.

etk
11-28-2007, 11:57 AM
It was like Chris Mortensen said during the draft, "How can you continue to ignore your defense? We love throwing the ball we love quarterbacks, receivers, but you have to address the defense sometime or another."

From a need standpoint, I think Gaines was a better pick for us than CJ would have been, and when you consider he is the prototypical fit for the Tampa 2 defense at RDE it is a match made in heaven when you can keep your mid round picks and get some great players.

Also, trading future picks is a huge mistake unless your roster is stacked (like the Chargers and they can make big trades for Weddle and Chambers).

Only trade in NFL Draft history that I can remember when a team traded a future high draft pick and it seemed to have worked out for them is Indy last year getting Tony Ugoh and giving up their 08 first. He looks like a very good player for them at LT and it was certainly worth it. On the other hand (think abou this) San Fran gave up their 08 first for Joe Staley, when they could have kept that pick and then drafted Ugoh with their 2nd round pick.

We didn't get great players, though. Piscitelli & Black have done nothing so far and Adams isn't even our best DE. If we traded for CJ, we would have the following:

-CJ on our offense. I don't even wanna think about the possibilities...
-We could still have Sears, or we could've used the pick on a defensive lineman. I'd keep Sears.
-Greg White starting full time from Week 1. He's our best RDE and we would've had more pressure if he got more PT from the start of the season.
-The opportunity to draft some outstanding defensive players from a good defensive class.

What we would have lost:
-Gaines Adams. A 25 year old rookie DE with very little proven. Greg White could've started the whole year, we could've drafted a DE later on as a backup and not missed a beat. Then we could've taken advantage of this year's outstanding DE class and drafted a better option later on to groom as a starter.
-Sabby Piscitelli. Worthless career backup who couldn't even make an impact on specials. He'll be off the roster before the next decade.
-Quincy Black. The jury's out on him, but Brooks & June are playing exceptionally well, while Ruud has stepped his game way up. We wouldn't lose much by waiting a year to draft someone else. Once again, there are some great OLB prospects in the draft this year.

I like the CJ option a lot. We gain a playmaker and a dominant physical specimen for our offense that's lacking both, and we lose very little 07 or future impact.

Chucky
11-28-2007, 04:11 PM
Quincy Black is a project player and the bucs knew that when they picked him. He will wait for 2-3 mjore years and then should be able to start once cato/brooks leave. Also he contributes on special teams. I liked the pick

dbtb135
11-28-2007, 08:32 PM
Sears, Jackson and Peterson were great picks. Adams was a check but we could've done better in trading up. We could've negotiated a trade for our second 2nd and our 3rd. We also could've offered future picks. I doubt Detroit would've turned that down.

Detroit set their price high and wouldn't budge. Who are you to say we "could have" negotiated our 2nd and 3rd? On what basis do you think they would have taken that offer?

Also, don't crap on Gaines and Sabby. I agree, Gaines hasn't looked too good, but give him more than just 11 games. I'm not going to list again all the DEs who looked bad and were unproductive their first year, then blew up. Then again, I do disagree strongly with someone who places him above Simeon for the future based on what he's shown. There's got to be some middle ground on his potential. It can't be as cut and dry as "average pass rusher" or "better than a HOFer". Sabby hasn't even gotten nearly any PT on defense, so I don't see where you come off making that bold of a statement. You, not so long ago, were talking the same crap about Sears and he's rivaling Jackson as our best rookie, and maybe our best lineman.

etk
11-28-2007, 10:16 PM
Quincy Black is a project player and the bucs knew that when they picked him. He will wait for 2-3 mjore years and then should be able to start once cato/brooks leave. Also he contributes on special teams. I liked the pick

He actually hasn't contributed very much on special teams. He's on the teams, but he's not exactly a standout.

Detroit set their price high and wouldn't budge. Who are you to say we "could have" negotiated our 2nd and 3rd? On what basis do you think they would have taken that offer?

Also, don't crap on Gaines and Sabby. I agree, Gaines hasn't looked too good, but give him more than just 11 games. I'm not going to list again all the DEs who looked bad and were unproductive their first year, then blew up. Then again, I do disagree strongly with someone who places him above Simeon for the future based on what he's shown. There's got to be some middle ground on his potential. It can't be as cut and dry as "average pass rusher" or "better than a HOFer". Sabby hasn't even gotten nearly any PT on defense, so I don't see where you come off making that bold of a statement. You, not so long ago, were talking the same crap about Sears and he's rivaling Jackson as our best rookie, and maybe our best lineman.

I think we could have offered those picks. If they were reasonable they would accept, but who knows?

There is definitely middle ground on Gaines Adams. My problem is that we spent the 4th overall pick on him, and he doesn't appear to be the stud we would expect from that pick or from the RDE spot (very important in our defense).

Sabby sucks, okay. He sucked at Oregon State and he was never worth such a high selection. He has the size, speed and overall athleticism but he's just not a football player. In college he somewhat got away with his talents but his lack of instincts and fundamentals are costing him right now. He just hasn't been able to adjust to the speed of the pro game, as evidenced by lack of PT and struggles the rare times he is on the field. There's still the possibility that we coach him up to a higher level. Our coaches are capable of that but I don't think he is. His career isn't over but he's definitely headed in the wrong path. I don't see a point in defending him either because Jermaine Phillips is one of the MVPs of our defense right now and there was never a need to draft a replacement. Phillips was victimized in coverage from time to time, but I blame a lot of that on Will Allen, who is one of the worst Bucs to ever don the pewter and red. He's always been a big hitter and a good tackler, but it's hard to expect a guy to play up to his potential when the whole defense is struggling.

The story on Sears is this: I thought he was a decent player coming out of college, but I never liked us drafting him. I liked his tenacity at Tennessee, but I didn't see the need for us to draft another interior lineman so early in the draft. I don't have the inside information that the coaching staff possesses so I wasn't aware that Buenning's injury was so severe. Even under those circumstances, I thought Blalock had better credentials. Blalock was more athletic, stronger and smarter. Sears has the intangibles and Blalock was an overachiever, neither of which I realized until this season, where Sears has dominated (I agree that he's our best lineman) and Blalock has struggled. I misjudged him a bit, but I never hated Sears like I hated Sabby. Everyone makes mistakes but I have a lot of knowledge concerning the draft, hence why I post here and not anywhere else.

dbtb135
11-29-2007, 02:18 AM
I think we could have offered those picks. If they were reasonable they would accept, but who knows?

There is definitely middle ground on Gaines Adams. My problem is that we spent the 4th overall pick on him, and he doesn't appear to be the stud we would expect from that pick or from the RDE spot (very important in our defense).

He isn't a stud yet, giving up hope now seems quite premature.

Sabby sucks, okay. He sucked at Oregon State and he was never worth such a high selection. He has the size, speed and overall athleticism but he's just not a football player.

I guess Greg White sucks also, since he made his way out of the league.

In college he somewhat got away with his talents but his lack of instincts and fundamentals are costing him right now.

He had a good break on the ball, which is important, in college. Thats pretty big when you're talking safety instincts and the Tampa 2. And costing him RIGHT NOW? Right now, he's on IR. An injury is the only thing costing him right now.

He just hasn't been able to adjust to the speed of the pro game, as evidenced by lack of PT and struggles the rare times he is on the field. There's still the possibility that we coach him up to a higher level. Our coaches are capable of that but I don't think he is. His career isn't over but he's definitely headed in the wrong path.

Phillips and Jackson are playing well right now, thats the reason for his lack of PT. He wasn't even 2 1/2 games into his rookie year when he went on IR, and didn't play that much on the defense. How can you make a fair judgment on him and talk about his "struggles" in such a short amount of time. He was a late 2nd rounder who apparently did well pre-season and got injured after a couple of games. If you can deduct how his career is going to go from here on out based on that, NFL teams should be knocking down your door. But that frame of reference of not even three games on STs and a handful of snaps on the D is ridiculously small.

I don't see a point in defending him either because Jermaine Phillips is one of the MVPs of our defense right now and there was never a need to draft a replacement. Phillips was victimized in coverage from time to time, but I blame a lot of that on Will Allen, who is one of the worst Bucs to ever don the pewter and red. He's always been a big hitter and a good tackler, but it's hard to expect a guy to play up to his potential when the whole defense is struggling.

Phillips is an MVP? Pfft, ahahahah. He's playing better than before, but over Ruud, Jackson, P-buc, June, Greg White, even Ronde after some of his plays? Phillips was toasted in coverage even when the tandem of Will Allen and Dex were playing well in 05. He's played at a very average to below average level since he replaced Lynch and everyone thought we'd be seeing an upgrade at SS because he was younger, faster, and more athletic (sounds like Sabby). This year is the only year that Phillips is REALLY hitting well and consistently, not missing tackles, and not getting his butt handed to him in coverage. He's never been a very good tackler.

The story on Sears is this: I thought he was a decent player coming out of college, but I never liked us drafting him. I liked his tenacity at Tennessee, but I didn't see the need for us to draft another interior lineman so early in the draft. I don't have the inside information that the coaching staff possesses so I wasn't aware that Buenning's injury was so severe. Even under those circumstances, I thought Blalock had better credentials. Blalock was more athletic, stronger and smarter. Sears has the intangibles and Blalock was an overachiever, neither of which I realized until this season, where Sears has dominated (I agree that he's our best lineman) and Blalock has struggled. I misjudged him a bit, but I never hated Sears like I hated Sabby. Everyone makes mistakes but I have a lot of knowledge concerning the draft, hence why I post here and not anywhere else.

Go back to a thread in the NFC South forum where you moaned about him getting beat and referenced talking about how bad a pick he was.

Watchman
11-29-2007, 02:07 PM
Gaines Adams will be better than Simeon Rice was, especially versus the run.

Warren Sapp was a big name, but he was a little overrated in his last few years in Tampa. He didn't get a lot of sacks or pressures really. I mean he had that 10 sack season then dropped to like 5 for the next 2...am I right?

Part of the reason Sapp's sack totals declined in 02 was because he was tasked with stopping the run first. That was a big difference in the 02 defense from previous years, it was harder to run on them.

Caddy
11-30-2007, 08:36 PM
I've been away for a week now and I have to say, I'm dissapointed that you all had such a thrilling discussion without me. :(

etk
11-30-2007, 10:59 PM
I've been away for a week now and I have to say, I'm dissapointed that you all had such a thrilling discussion without me. :(

Actually, things have gone really well without you. Except for some blind homerism towards Gaines Adams, we've had a productive week. You can leave now. Speaking on behalf of the Bucs fans of NFLDC, we're sick of the dead weight that is a Chas Gessner fan. You are the weakest link, goodbye.

Caddy
12-02-2007, 03:55 AM
Actually, things have gone really well without you. Except for some blind homerism towards Gaines Adams, we've had a productive week. You can leave now. Speaking on behalf of the Bucs fans of NFLDC, we're sick of the dead weight that is a Chas Gessner fan. You are the weakest link, goodbye.

Haha yeah I noticed. I believe BucSappy is the main culprit this week. But we all have our homeristic days so I can forgive him.

etk
12-02-2007, 12:08 PM
Haha yeah I noticed. I believe BucSappy is the main culprit this week. But we all have our homeristic days so I can forgive him.

Apparently 1 sack every 3 or so games is enough to be better than Simeon Rice, who was DROY with 12.5. Or maybe Adams has more potential, you know, since he's almost 25 already and has no pass rush moves.

Tampa 2 4 life
12-02-2007, 01:20 PM
Apparently 1 sack every 3 or so games is enough to be better than Simeon Rice, who was DROY with 12.5. Or maybe Adams has more potential, you know, since he's almost 25 already and has no pass rush moves.

We shoulda waited for Selvie. ;)

etk
12-02-2007, 04:39 PM
We shoulda waited for Selvie. ;)

I'm not a big Selvie fan, but I agree that he's a better prospect than Gaines was (still a Soph too). Vernon Gholston is my favorite of the 3...

Tampa 2 4 life
12-02-2007, 04:47 PM
I'm not a big Selvie fan, but I agree that he's a better prospect than Gaines was (still a Soph too). Vernon Gholston is my favorite of the 3...

I like Gholston too. Selvie could easily jump ahead if he puts on some freaking weight. He's got a barrage of moves and has a great motor, but 242 pounds is inexcusable for an end.

dbtb135
12-02-2007, 09:27 PM
We still need another big pass rusher. I don't know about Selvie/Gholston though. Selvie would just be another RDE in the mold Gaines is. Gholston, on the other hand, has freakish ability. So while he'd be able to play LDE and vastly improve our pass rush, he'd probably go too high for us next year. I'm still praying for an under the radar stud UT.

BaLLiN
12-02-2007, 09:30 PM
Dre Moore anyone?

etk
12-02-2007, 10:21 PM
We still need another big pass rusher. I don't know about Selvie/Gholston though. Selvie would just be another RDE in the mold Gaines is. Gholston, on the other hand, has freakish ability. So while he'd be able to play LDE and vastly improve our pass rush, he'd probably go too high for us next year. I'm still praying for an under the radar stud UT.

I was speaking in terms of "what if". I wish we would've skipped out on Gaines and waited until this year to draft VG. No way in hell should we draft another DE in Round 1, but Gholston slipping would be tempting.

I highly doubt that a later-round UT will be an improvement over Haye/Peterson.
An earlier UT would not be worth it, unless his name was Sedrick Ellis. We could, however, draft a run-stopping UT since Haye has struggled some in that department. Either that or we give Sims some more minutes because he's looked better on 1st and 2nd down.

dbtb135
12-04-2007, 12:37 AM
I was speaking in terms of "what if". I wish we would've skipped out on Gaines and waited until this year to draft VG. No way in hell should we draft another DE in Round 1, but Gholston slipping would be tempting.

Eh, Gaines is starting to come on real strong here. He got a sack yesterday, forced Brees into Ronde's drive-ending sack, played the run well, and blew up that reverse at the end with his driving Jammal Brown back. If we pass on him, who do we take this year? Gholston, I'm sure once he gets to the combine, will impress a lot. I could see him as the #2 DE this year, with the way guys like Campbell and Harvey are playing. If we had missed out on Gaines, then Gholston went before we picked, we'd be in bad shape. As it stands, we've got a very athletic one who's making strides every week seemingly. I'll take it.

etk
12-04-2007, 10:07 AM
Eh, Gaines is starting to come on real strong here. He got a sack yesterday, forced Brees into Ronde's drive-ending sack, played the run well, and blew up that reverse at the end with his driving Jammal Brown back. If we pass on him, who do we take this year? Gholston, I'm sure once he gets to the combine, will impress a lot. I could see him as the #2 DE this year, with the way guys like Campbell and Harvey are playing. If we had missed out on Gaines, then Gholston went before we picked, we'd be in bad shape. As it stands, we've got a very athletic one who's making strides every week seemingly. I'll take it.

The lack of impact rushers is disappointing, and it's too bad we had to settle for lesser value for necessity. I guess you're right that Gaines is all we can get.

dbtb135
12-04-2007, 11:48 PM
The past month, Gaines has been very, very good for us. He's really doing better that you're giving him credit for.

11 solo tackles, 3 sacks, 1 FF, 1 PD. The Redskins stop on 4th down, the FF in Atlanta, blowing up the Saints reverse so Reggie tossed it to no one in particular, great hits on Hurt Warner and Brees. He's made some splash plays.

By comparison Calvin Johnson this past month:

14 receptions, 182 yards, 13.0 YPC, and 2 TDs.

If we had taken CJ and gotten this production, I doubt anyone would be questioning the "lesser value".

etk
12-05-2007, 09:22 AM
The past month, Gaines has been very, very good for us. He's really doing better that you're giving him credit for.

11 solo tackles, 3 sacks, 1 FF, 1 PD. The Redskins stop on 4th down, the FF in Atlanta, blowing up the Saints reverse so Reggie tossed it to no one in particular, great hits on Hurt Warner and Brees. He's made some splash plays.


You don't need to go out of your way to prove it. I'll be the first to admit that Gaines has stepped up in the past 4 (I think) weeks. He's probably been our best rusher and lineman overall in that period. I still think Greg White is better but his conditioning is starting to look poor, whereas Gaines plays his best ball late in the game. Gaines will be good for about another 6 years or so, but I don't think he'll ever be elite. I expect more from a top-5 pick, to be honest, but things could change.

dbtb135
12-05-2007, 09:27 AM
You don't need to go out of your way to prove it. I'll be the first to admit that Gaines has stepped up in the past 4 (I think) weeks. He's probably been our best rusher and lineman overall in that period. I still think Greg White is better but his conditioning is starting to look poor, whereas Gaines plays his best ball late in the game. Gaines will be good for about another 6 years or so, but I don't think he'll ever be elite. I expect more from a top-5 pick, to be honest, but things could change.

Outside of Joe Thomas, none of the top 5 players are playing anywhere near elite. He has the tools to become elite, and he's starting to put a lot of things together. I'd be excited about it, rather than disappointed he's not among the league's elite already. At this pace, both him and the offensive line will be hitting their strides come the post season. Thats something to look forward to.