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BucSappy
11-26-2007, 05:55 AM
Like previously said, we are $30M under the cap. What would you do and be reasonable about it. We aren't going to get Jared Allen, Albert Haynesworth, and Michael Turner.

Like I said I think the player that can have the biggest effect on our football team in the FA market is Michael Turner. Gruden has always talked about having 2 capable backs (suggested us drafting Adrian Peterson, even though he was bluffing) and I think it gives us insurance in case Cadillac gets hurt again.

So my dream offseason would be:

Sign RB Michael Turner
Sign WR D.J. Hackett

Draft
Round 1: Pat Sims DT Auburn (Jr.)
Round 2: Chris Williams T Vanderbilt
Round 3: Donnie Avery WR Houston
Round 4: Dwight Lowery CB San Jose State
Round 5: Fernando Velasco C/G Georgia

Okay, the Pat Sims pick probably comes as a big shock. He is an underclassman but has had a great season. The core of that Auburn DL. Doesn't register a lot of sacks but he generates a lot of pressure and forces QB to move in the pocket, and his teammates pick up the sack. A very hard worker. Kid is 6'4, 314, and runs a 4.85 40. Sick athleticism. Perfect for our scheme.

The signing of DJ Hackett allows us to draft Sims. I mean I think Sims is the kind of player we will have very highly rated and who we just can't pass up on if he committs to this draft and is available.

Chris Williams has the athletic ability to play LT much like Tony Ugoh. Can learn behind Petitgout/Penn as a rookie and step in during his rookie year. Also can play backup RT as a rookie to Trueblood.

Donnie Avery is an interesting prospect. He is best fit as a slot WR. 5'11 190. 4.29 speed, no joke this kid is fast. Our future at WR would be Stovall, Hackett, and Avery (who knows with Clayton). Pretty good WR corps if Stovall develops, and who knows how long Galloway and Hillard will keep playing.

Lowery is a perfect fit in the Tampa 2 defense. Great ball skills (the WAC doesn't throw at him a lot anymore), good tackling ability, and has a nose for forcing fumbles. Athletic player and a leader he can learn a lot from out vets.

Velasco gives us a lot of bulk and strength at center. Reminds me of LeCharles Bentley.

Thoughts?

Chucky
11-26-2007, 06:22 AM
I dont see why it is unreasonable for us to get jared ALlen or Haynesworth, If we have the most money then it definaatly can happen

BucSappy
11-26-2007, 06:27 AM
I dont see why it is unreasonable for us to get jared ALlen or Haynesworth, If we have the most money then it definaatly can happen

1. DE isn't a need for us at all, unless for depth.

2. Haynesworth is going to cost a lot of money, and if we sign Hackett and Turner I don't think there will be enough to sign Haynesworth...you complain a lot.

I mean we took a DT in round 1 and I still get criticized for not getting Haynesworth. Our defense is top 5 in nearly every category, we don't need to get Haynesworth.

YoJoeBucsFan
11-26-2007, 08:17 AM
Jared Allen will get franchised. Also no more offensive line picks in the 1st day.

BucSappy
11-26-2007, 08:24 AM
Jared Allen will get franchised. Also no more offensive line picks in the 1st day.

Why not? Left tackle is clearly a need, Petitgout can't stay healthy. Penn is good but he is nothing special.

Captain Fear
11-27-2007, 11:42 AM
Draft
Round 1: Pat Sims DT Auburn (Jr.)
Round 2: Chris Williams T Vanderbilt
Round 3: Donnie Avery WR Houston
Round 4: Dwight Lowery CB San Jose State
Round 5: Fernando Velasco C/G Georgia


Not sure about the players, but i like the positions taken. I hope we stay commited to building our team from the lines out.

Free agency will be interesting this year, since it's the first time we've had money to spend under the Gruden era. We'll see if they continue the strategy of reviving washed up bums from other franchises, or if we actually part with some money to sign elite talent.

I love the possibility of signing RB - Turner, but what do we do with Graham. I doubt he'll be happy reverting to 3rd string after this season. Any thoughts on whether he holds any trade value? mid-round pick or Samkon Gado value?

BucSappy
11-27-2007, 11:52 AM
Not sure about the players, but i like the positions taken. I hope we stay commited to building our team from the lines out.

Free agency will be interesting this year, since it's the first time we've had money to spend under the Gruden era. We'll see if they continue the strategy of reviving washed up bums from other franchises, or if we actually part with some money to sign elite talent.

I love the possibility of signing RB - Turner, but what do we do with Graham. I doubt he'll be happy reverting to 3rd string after this season. Any thoughts on whether he holds any trade value? mid-round pick or Samkon Gado value?

I don't think Graham has any more trade value than what he will be worth to this team even as a 3rd string RB.

I mean we sign Turner, or maybe someone like Fred Taylor, then you start him Week 1. I think we need ot make the most of our OL, and quite frankly Graham isn't as good as Turner or Taylor.

And this isn't the first year we have had money to spend in teh FA market. We did just bring in Luke Petitgout, Jeff Garcia, Kevin Carter, and Cato June.

Captain Fear
11-27-2007, 12:19 PM
And this isn't the first year we have had money to spend in teh FA market. We did just bring in Luke Petitgout, Jeff Garcia, Kevin Carter, and Cato June.

I suppose, but we've yet to make a real splash in free agency. These are all 'B' level FA's at best, and tend to reinforce our frugal approach to FA. These signings made sense last year since we had a lot of needs. I just question whether Bucs management is willing to spend the money required to get top free agents. Personally, I like the way we've managed our cap over the recent years. I prefer seeing us build through the draft and save our cap space to re-sign those players (whether their worth re-signing, ie. Clayton, Cadillac...com'on prove your worth!). That said, we currently don't have any glaring needs, but there's plenty of areas that could use upgrades. So I guess this should be the year we make that splash if we have 30 mil to spend.

Watchman
11-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Win the lotto, pay off the house, buy some cars, put a bunch of money away, go on a cruise or something, buy some more cars, take the kids to Disney, go on vacation (after Disney), buy a new house, go on vacation, buy some new stuff for the new house, set up the new saltwater aquarium, go on vacation, spend week 1 at the Bellagio in Vegas.

That'd do it. If all that happened I'd just catch up with what the Bucs did during their offseason before kick off of week 1 in between getting some bets down.

Forgot to add giving some people at the office a piece of my mind - after winning the lotto of course.

etk
11-27-2007, 04:32 PM
Not sure about the players, but i like the positions taken. I hope we stay commited to building our team from the lines out.

Free agency will be interesting this year, since it's the first time we've had money to spend under the Gruden era. We'll see if they continue the strategy of reviving washed up bums from other franchises, or if we actually part with some money to sign elite talent.

I love the possibility of signing RB - Turner, but what do we do with Graham. I doubt he'll be happy reverting to 3rd string after this season. Any thoughts on whether he holds any trade value? mid-round pick or Samkon Gado value?

If we sign Turner, it will be Caddy leaving, not Graham. Caddy's useless to us as a backup. There's the injury problems, the contract, and I don't think he would take a spot on the bench too kindly (he is a great person though). Graham has spent his whole career as a backup, knows his role, is durable and is one of our best special teamers (has the passion for it).

Our RB situation would have to look like any of these options:
1) Turner, Cadillac, Graham [Bennett, Darby]
2) Turner, Graham, {Bennett, Darby or outsider}
3) Turner, Graham & Pittman [Bennett & Darby]

The second one makes the most sense for this team IMO.

Tampa 2 4 life
11-27-2007, 07:03 PM
"Our top story on ESPN, Jeff Garcia has found the fountain of youth and has reverted back to the age of 20."

But seriously, Pat Sims? Over a Clady/Baker or a J-Stew? I'd rather draft a corner like Jenkins/Cason and get rid of Kelly. I don't like Sims' lack of productivity and I think he profiles more as a UT in the pros, frankly he shouldn't even THINK about leaving early anyways, so it's a moot point.

Canadian_kid16
11-27-2007, 07:57 PM
Colt Brennan in round three (or even the second round) would make me happy, and we need a LDE...and a LT, as long as we fill those need and add a coupel of high priced luxuries, I would be happy

etk
11-27-2007, 10:12 PM
"Our top story on ESPN, Jeff Garcia has found the fountain of youth and has reverted back to the age of 20."

But seriously, Pat Sims? Over a Clady/Baker or a J-Stew? I'd rather draft a corner like Jenkins/Cason and get rid of Kelly. I don't like Sims' lack of productivity and I think he profiles more as a UT in the pros, frankly he shouldn't even THINK about leaving early anyways, so it's a moot point.

Thumbs up! I'd probably run out of ink if I made up a list of the players I'd draft ahead of Sims and printed it out.

dbtb135
11-27-2007, 10:35 PM
The thing with Turner is that A) we don't usually overpay for guys and B) top FAs usually look past Tampa because they either want a boatload or to go to a top contender, we usually offer neither. Turner is almost assuredly going to be the most sought after FA, and the team who gets him is going to win (or lose, depending on how you see it) a bidding war for the guy. I don't think Bruce or Jon is going to want to pay out the rear for a guy who hasn't been THE back. It's like an even more pricey Chester Taylor or LaMont Jordan situation.

Also, I don't see Lowery falling into day 2 (bottom half of the 4th at that). I'd prefer his talent in the 3rd over Avery anyway.

etk
11-27-2007, 10:40 PM
The thing with Turner is that A) we don't usually overpay for guys and B) top FAs usually look past Tampa because they either want a boatload or to go to a top contender, we usually offer neither. Turner is almost assuredly going to be the most sought after FA, and the team who gets him is going to win (or lose, depending on how you see it) a bidding war for the guy. I don't think Bruce or Jon is going to want to pay out the rear for a guy who hasn't been THE back. It's like an even more pricey Chester Taylor or LaMont Jordan situation.

Also, I don't see Lowery falling into day 2 (bottom half of the 4th at that). I'd prefer his talent in the 3rd over Avery anyway.

Michael Turner is well worth the investment. He's done more than just produce in limited time. If you actually watch him play, he looks like he could be a star as a feature back. There's no guarantee, but I actually think he's one of the 10 most talented backs in the league. He's proven more than Taylor & Jordan did when it comes to taking advantage of limited touches (behind a record-breaking MVP mind you).

I don't see Lowery in the 4th either. He could drop into the new Day 2 though.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 12:04 AM
I don't think Caddy necessarilly would be on the bench if we had both he and Turner. They could split carries. Plus, Turner would be our feature back for the first half of the season anyways since Caddy will likely be out, and we can afford to not rush him at all into the season.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 12:14 AM
"Our top story on ESPN, Jeff Garcia has found the fountain of youth and has reverted back to the age of 20."

But seriously, Pat Sims? Over a Clady/Baker or a J-Stew? I'd rather draft a corner like Jenkins/Cason and get rid of Kelly. I don't like Sims' lack of productivity and I think he profiles more as a UT in the pros, frankly he shouldn't even THINK about leaving early anyways, so it's a moot point.

I don't understand why we would draft a corner in round 1 given Ronde and P-Buc will likely be starting in 08. Round 2 yes so we could groom him. Also, it just isn't like Kiffin. He knows he can find great DB talent without spending a first round pick. I mean Tanard Jackson? Jermaine Phillips is playing great for us now. We can find a very capable corner (in an extremely deep CB class mind you if enough juniors committ) in round 2 or 3.

Also, I don't think LT is a huge need for us really. Especially with the way Penn is playing as a backup. He's had a great season and he is a young player who will only get better with more experience. Petitgout will be back next year (I hope) and I don't think we should give up on him just yet.

I don't understand how Pat Sims has had a "lack of productivity this season." He has played great, did you watch the AU/Bama game? NFL Draft Scout even has him ranked as the #1 Jr. DT. Jovan Haye is good, but he isn't great. And Hovan's pass rush is pretty non-existent.

etk
11-28-2007, 10:41 AM
I don't think Caddy necessarilly would be on the bench if we had both he and Turner. They could split carries. Plus, Turner would be our feature back for the first half of the season anyways since Caddy will likely be out, and we can afford to not rush him at all into the season.

I do. Especially now with the injury, Turner is leaps and bound ahead of him. Caddy doesn't have the best running style for our offense. He doesn't hit the hole hard enough and he slashes too much. I've seen too many plays as a Bucs fan where Caddy had an opportunity to pick up 3-4 yards but we ended up with a one yard loss because he doesn't dip his shoulders and drive. Earnest Graham is having great success this year against loaded boxes because he always picks up maximum yardage by bulling straight ahead. Turner has that same running style with more explosion and breakaway speed. With Graham starting, we've also been able to see how well our offense flows with a receiving option out of the backfield. Caddy can't catch.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 10:52 AM
I do. Especially now with the injury, Turner is leaps and bound ahead of him. Caddy doesn't have the best running style for our offense. He doesn't hit the hole hard enough and he slashes too much. I've seen too many plays as a Bucs fan where Caddy had an opportunity to pick up 3-4 yards but we ended up with a one yard loss because he doesn't dip his shoulders and drive. Earnest Graham is having great success this year against loaded boxes because he always picks up maximum yardage by bulling straight ahead. Turner has that same running style with more explosion and breakaway speed. With Graham starting, we've also been able to see how well our offense flows with a receiving option out of the backfield. Caddy can't catch.

I know what you are talking about with Caddy, and he is a much more hesititant runner than when he first got here and it is because he lost a lot of confidence in his OL (cuz they couldn't block for ****). He started like he was coming back to his old self in week 3 and 4, then boom knee injury season over.

Michael Turner hasn't had the greatest year, his FA contract will be based solely on potential.

@GB: 1-3
vs. KC: 2-(-2) (that's negative 2 yards)...1 fumble on two carries?
vs. OAK: 5-8
@ HOU: 4-10
vs. MIN: 1 -(-3) another negative

He's only had one good game this season vs. DEN 10-147. I know he never gets many touches because of LdT, but still he has dropped some bombs this year.

Now I know I just criticized him a whole lot but I still want him because the talent is there, our OL is better than SD's (Hartwick has been injured as well for them), and there isn't much else to look forward to in the FA market.

etk
11-28-2007, 10:57 AM
I know what you are talking about with Caddy, and he is a much more hesititant runner than when he first got here and it is because he lost a lot of confidence in his OL (cuz they couldn't block for ****). He started like he was coming back to his old self in week 3 and 4, then boom knee injury season over.

Michael Turner hasn't had the greatest year, his FA contract will be based solely on potential.

@GB: 1-3
vs. KC: 2-(-2) (that's negative 2 yards)...1 fumble on two carries?
vs. OAK: 5-8
@ HOU: 4-10
vs. MIN: 1 -(-3) another negative

He's only had one good game this season vs. DEN 10-147. I know he never gets many touches because of LdT, but still he has dropped some bombs this year.

Now I know I just criticized him a whole lot but I still want him because the talent is there, our OL is better than SD's (Hartwick has been injured as well for them), and there isn't much else to look forward to in the FA market.

I see your concerns. I just feel that Turner gives our offense a lot more flexibility and such, similar to what Jeff has done for us this year at QB. Picking up 4 yards on first down as opposed to 1 would do great things for our offense. Like you said, Cadillac is too hesitant and doesn't fight for yardage like a Graham or Turner. Having Turner does a few things for us, IMO:

1) More YPC, therefore more first downs.
2) Another option as a receiver out of the backfield.
3) Breakaway speed and explosion. Caddy has it, Graham doesn't.
4) The durability to carry the load and get rhythm in games. Caddy was never a great 3rd down back and it helps running backs to stay in flow of the game.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 11:01 AM
I don't think Caddy is tradable coming off the injury. We obviously wouldn't trade him for anything but a first round pick, and I'm not sure anyone would do that like I said coming off the injury.

Turner-Caddy-Graham-FTMFW

etk
11-28-2007, 11:08 AM
I don't think Caddy is tradable coming off the injury. We obviously wouldn't trade him for anything but a first round pick, and I'm not sure anyone would do that like I said coming off the injury.

Turner-Caddy-Graham-FTMFW

I would trade him for a 3rd, but that's just me. I agree that the coaches probably wouldn't just throw him away, but I think they should.

BucSappy
11-28-2007, 11:11 AM
I would trade him for a 3rd, but that's just me. I agree that the coaches probably wouldn't just throw him away, but I think they should.

For a 3rd are you kidding? That's ridiculous. He has way too much talent and you don't spend a #5 overall pick then later trade him for a 3rd round pick unless he is an absolute bust, and Caddy isn't. He had a great rookie year. A horrilbe OL and QB in his soph year. And he was injured this year.

So he has been for the most part very very unlucky.

ks_perfection
11-28-2007, 01:11 PM
I dont see why it is unreasonable for us to get jared ALlen or Haynesworth, If we have the most money then it definaatly can happen

Haynesworth will get tagged at the least. Allen will likely get tagged and if he hits the market he'll get a ton with all the excess cap space.

Tampa 2 4 life
11-28-2007, 03:16 PM
I don't understand why we would draft a corner in round 1 given Ronde and P-Buc will likely be starting in 08. Round 2 yes so we could groom him. Also, it just isn't like Kiffin. He knows he can find great DB talent without spending a first round pick. I mean Tanard Jackson? Jermaine Phillips is playing great for us now. We can find a very capable corner (in an extremely deep CB class mind you if enough juniors committ) in round 2 or 3.

Also, I don't think LT is a huge need for us really. Especially with the way Penn is playing as a backup. He's had a great season and he is a young player who will only get better with more experience. Petitgout will be back next year (I hope) and I don't think we should give up on him just yet.

I don't understand how Pat Sims has had a "lack of productivity this season." He has played great, did you watch the AU/Bama game? NFL Draft Scout even has him ranked as the #1 Jr. DT. Jovan Haye is good, but he isn't great. And Hovan's pass rush is pretty non-existent.

CB would be a MUCH better 1st round pick than Pat Sims. Our UT rotation is FINE. Haye is a good player. Greg Peterson was a beast earlier in the season and once he gets more instruction from Kiffin no doubt he becomes a beast. I really don't care what Sims did against an Alabama team that just had its spirit crushed against UL-Monroe. By that logic, Sims is a horrible player because he didn't do much against a USF team earlier in the year who was playing 2 inexperienced interior lineman.

Penn has been awful against the speed rush, why do you think Garcia's been sacked so much since Petitgout's been out. We need a solid LT.

dbtb135
11-28-2007, 08:46 PM
Michael Turner is well worth the investment. He's done more than just produce in limited time. If you actually watch him play, he looks like he could be a star as a feature back. There's no guarantee, but I actually think he's one of the 10 most talented backs in the league. He's proven more than Taylor & Jordan did when it comes to taking advantage of limited touches (behind a record-breaking MVP mind you).

I don't see Lowery in the 4th either. He could drop into the new Day 2 though.

I have seen him play. But how can you say the guy is worth such a bidding war that is imminent with him, over some split carries? He looks like an improved version of LaMont Jordan to be honest with you. Guys who were looked at as the next big FA back, despite not proving themselves, playing behind great backs, etc. Jordan had a little over 1200 yards after 4 seasons, Turner will have the same. Turner also benefits from a line that was very good since he got there. That line was dominant last year, if you watched them play. ;)

etk
11-28-2007, 10:00 PM
I have seen him play. But how can you say the guy is worth such a bidding war that is imminent with him, over some split carries? He looks like an improved version of LaMont Jordan to be honest with you. Guys who were looked at as the next big FA back, despite not proving themselves, playing behind great backs, etc. Jordan had a little over 1200 yards after 4 seasons, Turner will have the same. Turner also benefits from a line that was very good since he got there. That line was dominant last year, if you watched them play. ;)

How can I see he's worth the bidding war? He's everything I look for in a RB, and
deserves a lot more than split carries. I'm not expecting us to be much of a factor in Turner talk this offseason, but I really want him and I'm holding out hope.

dbtb135
11-29-2007, 02:22 AM
How can I see he's worth the bidding war? He's everything I look for in a RB, and
deserves a lot more than split carries. I'm not expecting us to be much of a factor in Turner talk this offseason, but I really want him and I'm holding out hope.

Proven, productive, reliable, a really good receiver. He's about half the things I look for in a RB.

etk
11-29-2007, 09:38 AM
Proven, productive, reliable, a really good receiver. He's about half the things I look for in a RB.

He is all of those things. He's not proven because he's backing up the best RB in the league.

dbtb135
11-29-2007, 11:36 PM
He is all of those things. He's not proven because he's backing up the best RB in the league.

You can't call a guy reliable when he's started what? 2 games or something like that? Or productive when he's put up 300 yards a season. And it's not like he splitting carries like Alstott and Dunn were or anything, he's just getting spot duty. From what I have seen, he's nothing great as a receiver. Pitt is better, Graham is better.

etk
11-29-2007, 11:39 PM
You can't call a guy reliable when he's started what? 2 games or something like that? Or productive when he's put up 300 yards a season. And it's not like he splitting carries like Alstott and Dunn were or anything, he's just getting spot duty. From what I have seen, he's nothing great as a receiver. Pitt is better, Graham is better.

He's been reliable when he's in the game, and he hasn't been hurt much either. He's been productive when he gets the ball, look at his YPC. He is a good receiver, but I agree that Pittman and Graham are better. Pittman has had some uncharacteristic drops this year, which frustrated me, but I still trust his hands.

dbtb135
11-30-2007, 12:07 AM
He's been reliable when he's in the game, and he hasn't been hurt much either. He's been productive when he gets the ball, look at his YPC. He is a good receiver, but I agree that Pittman and Graham are better. Pittman has had some uncharacteristic drops this year, which frustrated me, but I still trust his hands.

Reliable usually means that you can go to him often, over a long period of time. Like Curtis Martin. Turner isn't like that. His production has been good for what he's asked to do, but guys like T.J. Duckett and LaMont Jordan have put up good averages in good rushing offenses and not been studs outside of them. I haven't seen anything good about Turner's receiving abilities, and his stats there are like nil. I actually expected to see some reception numbers with the short passing game the Chargers have had for a while, but nope.

etk
11-30-2007, 07:45 PM
As a Senior at NIU he caught 19 balls for 230 yards and 3 TDs. He's more than a capable receiver, but he rarely gets opportunities. Like I said before, he's not a Pittman or Graham but he's a good receiver, well above-average.

dbtb135
11-30-2007, 11:44 PM
As a Senior at NIU he caught 19 balls for 230 yards and 3 TDs. He's more than a capable receiver, but he rarely gets opportunities. Like I said before, he's not a Pittman or Graham but he's a good receiver, well above-average.

19 catches doesn't seem like he's "well above average".

etk
12-01-2007, 01:57 PM
19 catches doesn't seem like he's "well above average".

If you point out evidence of Turner being a bad receiver and dropping balls, maybe I'll listen. Right now you're just arguing with me that he's not a good receiver but he doesn't have the stats, but you seem to have forgotten how very little opportunities he gets. When you throw him the ball, he catches it. His explosion makes him a very good threat on screens. I'm not saying Turner is the best receiving runningback, all I said is that he's a viable option. He's better than Cadillac but below Graham and Pittman, what's to argue?

dbtb135
12-01-2007, 09:49 PM
If you point out evidence of Turner being a bad receiver and dropping balls, maybe I'll listen.

So in order to be a well above average receiver, you don't have to put up the numbers or show yourself as a big receiving threat. Simply 28 catches in the last 5 years of football can do it. I didn't say the guy was a bad receiver, so proof of drops isn't really necessary. I just said he's got to show he's a very good receiver to be called a very good receiver. Not exactly a crazy theory. 5 catches a year, weighted by his 19 catches in his senior year (not that great, offense centered around him, poor competition). I'm not that impressed.

Right now you're just arguing with me that he's not a good receiver but he doesn't have the stats, but you seem to have forgotten how very little opportunities he gets.

Even with the opportunities in mind, he's an UNPROVEN NFL receiver. So how am I supposed to call him well above average?

When you throw him the ball, he catches it. His explosion makes him a very good threat on screens. I'm not saying Turner is the best receiving runningback, all I said is that he's a viable option. He's better than Cadillac but below Graham and Pittman, what's to argue?

9 catches isn't enough of a sample size for me. We don't use many screens. Michael Bennett had 10 catches for the Chiefs last year, playing behind workhorse Larry Johnson. I'm not going to put him up there with good receivers.

And Cadillac is a terrible pass catcher. Pittman is one of the best receiving backs in the league. Graham is above average, but I wouldn't put him in with the Gores, SJs, Pittmans, Westbrooks, Reggie Bushs, or Ronnie Browns of the NFL. Saying that he isn't as good as Pittman and not as bad as Caddy doesn't really give a good gauge of where he is at. Thats like saying a QB has a stronger arm than Chad Pennington, but not as strong as JaMarcus Russell.