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View Full Version : June Jones comments on Tim Tebow


D-Unit
12-04-2007, 02:03 PM
Is he right or wrong about Tebow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e36f-Yql5MM

Xiomera
12-04-2007, 02:04 PM
What did he say about him?

soybean
12-04-2007, 02:05 PM
this will be a very heated arguement im guessing. In a way he could be right but he probably shouldnt have said what he said. he said things in the heat of the moment.

I heard him on espn radio and he said he was just trying to defend colt from everyone saying he's a system qb.

haha and then he went on to say that alex smith was/is a system quarterback and he hasn't shown him anything to prove otherwise.

RyanLeaf#1
12-04-2007, 02:08 PM
For him to call anyone a system QB is rediculous. What Hawaii Qb ever started in the NFL under June? Chang was like the practice squad qb on the Eagles for a little bit.

vatech=accdomination
12-04-2007, 02:09 PM
Tebow is an exception to the system, he is so good, his NFL draft status will prove it, Brennan is anywhere from a round 1 to 3rd round guy, Tebow will be top 5. He was also just trying to help sell Colt.

RyanLeaf#1
12-04-2007, 02:18 PM
Tebow is an exception to the system, he is so good, his NFL draft status will prove it, Brennan is anywhere from a round 1 to 3rd round guy, Tebow will be top 5. He was also just trying to help sell Colt.

Are you saying Tebow will be a top 5 pick in round 1?

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 02:20 PM
For him to call anyone a system QB is rediculous. What Hawaii Qb ever started in the NFL under June? Chang was like the practice squad qb on the Eagles for a little bit.
June wasn't saying Colt isn't a system QB. He was saying Tebow is also a system QB and his numbers are ALSO a product of the system. Therefore, he didn't like the argument that Colt's numbers are inflated while people are ignoring Tebow's numbers in his system.

June hasn't had a good QB in the NFL that came from Hawaii. But he's never had NFL caliber talent to work with either. On the other hand, many successful NFL QBs give June credit for success in their careers... Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Jeff George to name a few.

VoteLynnSwan
12-04-2007, 02:24 PM
Tebow's rushing numbers aren't a product of the system... you couldn't plug a non-mobile guy in there and have the same success. You could put any of the "draftable" QBs (rounds 1-7 talent wise) into Hawaii's system and put up similar numbers.

VoteLynnSwan
12-04-2007, 02:26 PM
June wasn't saying Colt isn't a system QB. He was saying Tebow is also a system QB and his numbers are ALSO a product of the system. Therefore, he didn't like the argument that Colt's numbers are inflated while people are ignoring Tebow's numbers in his system.

June hasn't had a good QB in the NFL that came from Hawaii. But he's never had NFL caliber talent to work with either. On the other hand, many successful NFL QBs give June credit for success in their careers... Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Jeff George to name a few.

a direct quote from the video YOU posted... [speaking of colt brennan] "He's not a system quarterback like Tim Tebow." 15seconds into that video.

nah, he's not saying Colt isn't a system quarterback... i see what you're saying.

bored of education
12-04-2007, 02:31 PM
Tim Tebow just finally released his pass from two saturdays ago. Congrats on that HORRID delivery.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 02:32 PM
a direct quote from the video YOU posted... [speaking of colt brennan] "He's not a system quarterback like Tim Tebow." 15seconds into that video.

nah, he's not saying Colt isn't a system quarterback... i see what you're saying.
He says that because Colt can run ANY system... he's not defined by his system. Tebow couldn't run Hawaii's system because he's not accurate. He may become accurate down the line, but he's not a great passer now.

VoteLynnSwan
12-04-2007, 02:35 PM
He says that because Colt can run ANY system... he's not defined by his system. Tebow couldn't run Hawaii's system because he's not accurate. He may become accurate down the line, but he's not a great passer now.

yea i know... but you said he wasn't saying Colt isn't a system quarterback when he directly refutes that statement.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 02:38 PM
Tebow's rushing numbers aren't a product of the system... you couldn't plug a non-mobile guy in there and have the same success. You could put any of the "draftable" QBs (rounds 1-7 talent wise) into Hawaii's system and put up similar numbers.
Of course Tebow's numbers are part of the system. First off, they have no RB. Secondly, he's asked to rush. He won't have those rushing #s and TDs in Hawaii's system. Alex Smith executed Meyer's offense perfectly. Chris Leak lead them to the Championship. Colt Brennan could do well in it as well. Tebow is a better rusher than them, and he does it well, but his numbers are still because of the plays called for him.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 02:39 PM
yea i know... but you said he wasn't saying Colt isn't a system quarterback when he directly refutes that statement.
No, you're taking it out of context. He says Colt isn't a system QB because he'd do well in ANY system. Get it?

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 02:41 PM
BTW, I voted that he was wrong because he shouldn't have brought up Tebow's name. But hey, when you're at the top and everyone is ignoring your faults that are the same faults being blamed on your QB... what's a guy to do?

Glad he opened up some eyes, even though it wasn't the ethical thing to do.

RyanLeaf#1
12-04-2007, 02:44 PM
No, you're taking it out of context. He says Colt isn't a system QB because he'd do well in ANY system. Get it?

Well thats just his opinion. Whatever June says doesnt mean its going to be true. Colt will have to prove himself at the next level. I just think June is trying to get him drafted pretty high so he can get some money from football no matter what happens. Which is the right thing for a coach to do.

Sniper
12-04-2007, 02:51 PM
Tim Tebow just finally released his pass from two saturdays ago. Congrats on that HORRID delivery.

Looks like he's doing alright for himself...How many players can say they've won a Heisman and a NC in their first two years?

soybean
12-04-2007, 02:58 PM
june did bring up a good point though. People are all in love with the record tebow set but nobody really talks about the records brennan set... which ,may i add, is just as impressive.

sweetness34
12-04-2007, 03:00 PM
No, you're taking it out of context. He says Colt isn't a system QB because he'd do well in ANY system. Get it?

Which means he's not a system QB. Like VLS has said Junes mentioned in his interview.

I don't see how that is not saying Colt isn't a system QB. But whatever....

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 03:07 PM
Which means he's not a system QB. Like VLS has said Junes mentioned in his interview.

I don't see how that is not saying Colt isn't a system QB. But whatever....
I don't get what you just said, but whatever...

keylime_5
12-04-2007, 03:32 PM
Who would know what a system QB is better than June Jones? Tim Tebow is basically Alex Smith except not nearly as smart and much bigger so he can run over the little tiny SEC linebackers. When he gets to the NFL he won't be able to do anything on those monsters except get hurt. For a QB to be mobile in the NFL and successful he needs to be shifty like Vick, Steve Young, or Vince Young, not powerful like Tebow. Tebow will be a bust in the NFL just like any Florida QB even if he is unstoppable in college.

bearsfan_51
12-04-2007, 03:37 PM
Are you saying Tebow will be a top 5 pick in round 1?
I'll say it if he doesn't. A lot could change between now and next year (or two years) but I think if he comes out early next year he's the 1st quarterback taken. Whether that is top 5 or not is obviously even less clear.

Xonraider
12-04-2007, 03:45 PM
I agree with Jesse Palmer. You as a QB adjust to your system, which most of the time makes you look like a system QB. Tim Tebow is not exactly the most natural passer, but I dont believe he is a system QB.

VoteLynnSwan
12-04-2007, 04:09 PM
No, you're taking it out of context. He says Colt isn't a system QB because he'd do well in ANY system. Get it?

No i'm not taking it out of context. He says Colt isn't a system quarterback before he's asked why he thinks Tebow isn't.

I'll quote it directly for you

Jones-
You just watch any time we've had to have a play the last two years, he's made em. And uh... you know... this guy, this kid is different, he's one of the great ones, and he's not a system quarterback like Tim Tebow. This guy is an NFL quarterback and a first round pick, and I think he's the best one in America.

Now when you say a system quarterback like Tim Tebow, what do you mean by that June?

Then Jones goes on to say how Colt could run any system and Tebow couldn't run Hawaii's system because he's not a pure passer.

I really don't know what you're trying to refute here. Jones specifically said that Colt Brennan is NOT a system quarterback, it doesn't matter what he reasons for saying it were... I really don't know what you're trying to argue about.

here's what you said.
June wasn't saying Colt isn't a system QB. He was saying Tebow is also a system QB and his numbers are ALSO a product of the system.

that is totally wrong given what i just posted.

keylime_5
12-04-2007, 04:18 PM
I agree with Jesse Palmer. You as a QB adjust to your system, which most of the time makes you look like a system QB. Tim Tebow is not exactly the most natural passer, but I dont believe he is a system QB.

No doubt he'd be good elsewhere, but his numbers are definitely from Urban Meyer's gimmick offense.

StaticGator
12-04-2007, 05:02 PM
He says that because Colt can run ANY system... he's not defined by his system. Tebow couldn't run Hawaii's system because he's not accurate. He may become accurate down the line, but he's not a great passer now.

Are you really arguing a 68.5% versus 71.4%? Also, Tebow throws for 1.1 yard per attempt more which means his passes are of greater difficulty. Tebow has the highest YPA in the country.

StaticGator
12-04-2007, 05:03 PM
Who would know what a system QB is better than June Jones? Tim Tebow is basically Alex Smith except not nearly as smart and much bigger so he can run over the little tiny SEC linebackers. When he gets to the NFL he won't be able to do anything on those monsters except get hurt. For a QB to be mobile in the NFL and successful he needs to be shifty like Vick, Steve Young, or Vince Young, not powerful like Tebow. Tebow will be a bust in the NFL just like any Florida QB even if he is unstoppable in college.

He's certainly no Troy Smith.

Tampa 2 4 life
12-04-2007, 05:04 PM
If Alex Smith can be successful in Urban Meyer's system...

VoteLynnSwan
12-04-2007, 05:23 PM
i think Alex Smith could have been at least moderately successful in most college offenses... He just doesn't have the pro skillset, but his accuracy, intelligence, and running ability would have translated well to any system.

killa3312
12-04-2007, 05:26 PM
No doubt he'd be good elsewhere, but his numbers are definitely from Urban Meyer's gimmick offense.

Meyer's 'gimmick' offense is arguably the best in the nation... their efficiency is staggering.

BTW, Tebow was a concensus five star recruit in high school and was recruited by Michigan, LSU, and USC, none of which run the spread. Pete Carroll wanted him badly, but nah... he's just a system QB.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 05:50 PM
I dunno what to say VLS, if you don't get it, I can't force you to understand.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 05:52 PM
Are you really arguing a 68.5% versus 71.4%? Also, Tebow throws for 1.1 yard per attempt more which means his passes are of greater difficulty. Tebow has the highest YPA in the country.
Let's not get into translating stats. It can be read a hundred different ways.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 05:57 PM
Meyer's 'gimmick' offense is arguably the best in the nation... their efficiency is staggering.

BTW, Tebow was a concensus five star recruit in high school and was recruited by Michigan, LSU, and USC, none of which run the spread. Pete Carroll wanted him badly, but nah... he's just a system QB.
Tim Tebow isn't winning the award because of his passing stats. His numbers are only staggering because he's a good runner and in Meyer's system a running QB can put up those kinds of numbers. His numbers are a product of the system. Just like Colt's. So discrediting Colt by calling him a system QB is an unfair argument considering nobody is saying the same thing about Tebow.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 05:59 PM
i think Alex Smith could have been at least moderately successful in most college offenses... He just doesn't have the pro skillset, but his accuracy, intelligence, and running ability would have translated well to any system.
What do you mean he doesn't have a pro skill set? You just said his accuracy, intelligence and running ability are his major strengths. Is that not good things for an NFL skill set?

Turtlepower
12-04-2007, 06:03 PM
Anyone who says that Florida is not a system is more or less stupid. Seriously, Tim Tebow is a system QB. Does that mean that mean that he is a bad QB? No. But are his stats inflated and his weaknesses deflated due to the system? Definitely yes.

no love
12-04-2007, 06:42 PM
What do you mean he doesn't have a pro skill set? You just said his accuracy, intelligence and running ability are his major strengths. Is that not good things for an NFL skill set?

Good point. Everyone can pretty much agree that Alex has the skills, work ethic, accuracy, intelligence and athletic ability to play in this league. However he is so fundamentally unsound that when his mechanics break down so too does his play. He has shown flashes of playmaking ability but just hasn't been consistent for 4 quarters.

I have said it once and I will say it again, any qb coming from Meyers system will be a project qb. It will take at least 3 years to see what you actually have because he will need to learn how to do everything that a NFL qb needs to be able to do from scratch.

People complain about Tedford qbs... at least they know how to do a 3,5 and 7 step drop.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 06:42 PM
Real good Radio Interview of June Jones on 790 The Zone in Atlanta.

http://www.790thezone.com/vdDynamic/AudioBits/1-audiobit4095.mp3

StaticGator
12-04-2007, 06:47 PM
Let's pretend Florida had a running back that got all 194 of his rushing attempts. He is still top 10 in touchdown passes despite having between 92-327 fewer attempts than every other QB in the top 10 but Bradford who missed time due to injury. Only 2 starting QB's in the country have fewer interceptions. Only 8 starting QB's in the country have taken fewer sacks. And as I said he has the highest YPA out of everyone. Tebow's passing stats stand on their own if he didn't have 1 rushing attempt.

VoteLynnSwan
12-04-2007, 07:04 PM
What do you mean he doesn't have a pro skill set? You just said his accuracy, intelligence and running ability are his major strengths. Is that not good things for an NFL skill set?

Alex Smith can't make all the throws that an NFL quarterback needs to be able to make, that's his biggest issue. Also, his running ability does not translate into the NFL because he lacks elite speed and agility. In the college game though, he could use that ability effectively.

I dunno what to say VLS, if you don't get it, I can't force you to understand.

obviously YOU don't get it, you're the one who was wrong about what June said.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 07:04 PM
Let's pretend Florida had a running back that got all 194 of his rushing attempts. He is still top 10 in touchdown passes despite having between 92-327 fewer attempts than every other QB in the top 10 but Bradford who missed time due to injury. Only 2 starting QB's in the country have fewer interceptions. Only 8 starting QB's in the country have taken fewer sacks. And as I said he has the highest YPA out of everyone. Tebow's passing stats stand on their own if he didn't have 1 rushing attempt.
Isn't it nice to pretend?

Top 10 in passing TDs isn't good enough. Colt broke the NCAA record last year... didn't mean a thing. Fewer INTs... so? He threw less. Fewer sacks... so? He runs half the time he hikes the ball. He doesn't sit back and throw the ball nearly as much as Colt or most QBs for that matter. YPA is meaningless. It's not an indicator of a QB's efficiency. WR YAC go into that equation. The offensive scheme and play call go into the equation. What are you trying to say with that stat? It's meaningless. It definitely doesn't mean Tebow throws a nicer deep ball or that he has a quicker release or makes better reads or anything really.

Race for the Heisman
12-04-2007, 07:06 PM
He's certainly no Troy Smith.

Just curious, sarcasm or no?

As for the topic at hand, I don't know much about Tebow or Brennan before their college careers which might give an indication as to their ability to run other systems but in the end it doesn't really matter. You cannot tell me with absolute certainty that just because a guy played within a system that that makes his a system quarterback.

Tim Tebow likes easy women. All system quarterbacks like easy women. Tim Tebow is a system quarterback. It just doesn't work. Until you see what they can do in a professionally-styled offense there's no way to say for sure. You can project arm strength and accuracy to give an indication of whether or not a player might fit into a certain system but the truth is there are different systems in the NFL as well, and a quarterback who can succeed in the NFL in one (WCO; Jeff Garcia), may not be able to fit into another.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 07:08 PM
Alex Smith can't make all the throws that an NFL quarterback needs to be able to make, that's his biggest issue. Also, his running ability does not translate into the NFL because he lacks elite speed and agility. In the college game though, he could use that ability effectively.



obviously YOU don't get it, you're the one who was wrong about what June said.
Forget it. You're right. Colt Brennan isn't a system QB. I like that. ;)

VoteLynnSwan
12-04-2007, 07:16 PM
that's why i couldn't understand why you were arguing...

that being said, i think Colt definitely has better arm strength than most system quarterbacks (which always seems to be the detriment to system QBs) although his release is really awkward and flat, and that worries me as he transitions into the NFL.

StaticGator
12-04-2007, 07:24 PM
YPA is meaningless. It's not an indicator of a QB's efficiency. WR YAC go into that equation. The offensive scheme and play call go into the equation. What are you trying to say with that stat? It's meaningless. It definitely doesn't mean Tebow throws a nicer deep ball or that he has a quicker release or makes better reads or anything really.

If anything Colt Detmer runs a more YAC friendly offense where short (safe) passes are supposed to compensate for no running game. Despite the spread, a lot of what Tebow does is old school pound, pound, pound, bomb over the top. His deep accuracy is exceptional, something you can't fake, and he has an arm to make all the throws.

soybean
12-04-2007, 07:31 PM
Meyer's 'gimmick' offense is arguably the best in the nation... their efficiency is staggering.

BTW, Tebow was a concensus five star recruit in high school and was recruited by Michigan, LSU, and USC, none of which run the spread. Pete Carroll wanted him badly, but nah... he's just a system QB.

so just because he was highly recruited means he's not a system qb?

the point is his gaudy numbers are a product of urban meyer's system. There isn't another team in the nation where he would be putting up 20-20 unless the offense was tailored to his skillset.

VoteLynnSwan
12-04-2007, 07:34 PM
so just because he was highly recruited means he's not a system qb?

the point is his gaudy numbers are a product of urban meyer's system. There isn't another team in the nation where he would be putting up 20-20 unless the offense was tailored to his skillset.

perhaps, but i would argue that only a few other quarterbacks would go for 20-20 in THAT system.

StaticGator
12-04-2007, 07:47 PM
So someone remind me what kind of NFL system do you pass the ball 47 times per game?

bearsfan_51
12-04-2007, 07:49 PM
So someone remind me what kind of NFL system do you pass the ball 47 times per game?
http://www.deadspin.com/sports/mikemartz.jpg

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 07:55 PM
So someone remind me what kind of NFL system do you pass the ball 47 times per game?
What? Who are you to question June Jones? He IS an NFL guy. Have you ever seen the Patriots play football? All they do is line up in shotgun formation. Brady passed the ball 47 times against Dallas... and 54 times against the Eagles! Speaking of the Eagles, they pass like CRAZY! Your attempt to be sarcastic about June's pass happy system was a very ignorant one. Look at all the high powered offenses in the NFL... They all are very proficient passing teams.

cowboysforever
12-04-2007, 07:59 PM
Tim Tebow is alot of things but a franchise NFL QB he is not.

His footwork stinks, his throwing motion stink and he is not all that bright.

But he is a GREAT COLLEGE player.

Average OT LB
12-04-2007, 08:03 PM
So someone remind me what kind of NFL system do you pass the ball 47 times per game?

This is completely correct. The man is throwing stones, from a glass house.

However, that doesnt mean his statements about tebow arent true.. I agree that Tebows skills will not translate well to the NFL and that colts' will have an easier time...

All coaches try to develop a system, so i feel his points are a little misguided. He says that tebow is a system qb because of "dives and flys" and that doesnt make sense to me because tebow is just doing what he does best.. what colt does best is throw 50 times a game... so wait... tebow is a system quarterback because he does his best to win? and because he does what he does he should be penalized? I dont know the overall goal of his statements, if it is to argue for heisman candidacy and ****, then hes straight up wrong. If hes pushing colt for the NFL then it makes sense..


either way he should not have said it.

Babylon
12-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Tim Tebow is alot of things but a franchise NFL QB he is not.

His footwork stinks, his throwing motion stink and he is not all that bright.

But he is a GREAT COLLEGE player.

Sounds like Vince Young to me.

T.Smith
12-04-2007, 08:24 PM
Urban Meyers offense = system.

Josh Harris (His QB at Bowling green) put up similar type numbers.
Harris was only one passing touchdown away from doing the big "20 TD passing, 20 TD rushing" thing everyone is getting so excited about (19 passing, 20 rushing in 2002).
People seem to forget that. Thats why when people bring that record up (20 running and 20 passing) I really don't care. I watched BG play all the time with Urban as the coach, and they had way less talent, namely speed that is needed to run a successful spread.
Tebow is a good QB, but that doesn't change the fact that he is in a system.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 08:26 PM
This is completely correct. The man is throwing stones, from a glass house.

However, that doesnt mean his statements about tebow arent true.. I agree that Tebows skills will not translate well to the NFL and that colts' will have an easier time...

All coaches try to develop a system, so i feel his points are a little misguided. He says that tebow is a system qb because of "dives and flys" and that doesnt make sense to me because tebow is just doing what he does best.. what colt does best is throw 50 times a game... so wait... tebow is a system quarterback because he does his best to win? and because he does what he does he should be penalized? I dont know the overall goal of his statements, if it is to argue for heisman candidacy and ****, then hes straight up wrong. If hes pushing colt for the NFL then it makes sense..


either way he should not have said it.
No, you are also interpreting what he said incorrectly. But first off, Hawaii's passing offense is an NFL passing offense. They don't run, like the NFL, but the pass plays in his scheme are all utilized in the NFL in some capacity. His offensive scheme calls for plays that translate to the NFL. Meyer's offense does not translate well in the NFL. Therefore, Colt's ability to make NFL passes are more proven whereas Tebow's is not. But June doesn't mention anything about Tebow's pro prospects. What he is saying is that Tebow's numbers are a product of the system. The entire nation is up in arms about him saying that, but they don't like to hear it because he's the media darling. The media is the driving force behind determining the Heisman winner. The media has been hyping up Tebow for a while now, but they question Colt's stats because of his system, yet give Tebow a free pass??? It's simply because Florida is a big program in the SEC. Put Tebow in Hawaii with Urban's system and Tebow would not be the front runner. People would be calling him a system QB. The media will never say Tebow is a system QB, but June was smart. He knew what he was doing. Now they're all thinking twice.

Tampa 2 4 life
12-04-2007, 08:53 PM
I could even make the argument that the current Hawaii offense isn't really the Run N' Shoot. In a true run and shoot, you're not making the reads that Brennan is currently making, Brennan is currently going down his progression, in a true Run N' Shoot, you look at one defensive player, he does one thing, you throw one route, he does something else, you throw a different route. Those are the type of reads Tebow makes.

killa3312
12-04-2007, 09:38 PM
June Jones said Favre couldn't make it in the NFL... that's all I need to know about his ability to evaluate talent. Look, Jones is a smart man, and he's been around the NFL game for a long time, but that doesn't mean we have to accept what he says and believe it to be true.

Tebow is only a sophomore, so burying his pro prospects this early into his college career is extremely premature. He has excellent size and arm strength, and he's obviously got mobility, so I do think he can be an NFL QB. Yes, he has a slow and awkward release, but that can be improved upon. I think he's clearly got more tools, physically, than Alex Smith who, say what you want about him, did go first overall. Tebow's physical tools won't be what stops him... it'll be his slow release if anything, and he somewhat makes up for that with his mobility.

Average OT LB
12-04-2007, 09:39 PM
No, you are also interpreting what he said incorrectly. But first off, Hawaii's passing offense is an NFL passing offense. They don't run, like the NFL, but the pass plays in his scheme are all utilized in the NFL in some capacity. His offensive scheme calls for plays that translate to the NFL. Meyer's offense does not translate well in the NFL. Therefore, Colt's ability to make NFL passes are more proven whereas Tebow's is not. But June doesn't mention anything about Tebow's pro prospects. What he is saying is that Tebow's numbers are a product of the system. The entire nation is up in arms about him saying that, but they don't like to hear it because he's the media darling. The media is the driving force behind determining the Heisman winner. The media has been hyping up Tebow for a while now, but they question Colt's stats because of his system, yet give Tebow a free pass??? It's simply because Florida is a big program in the SEC. Put Tebow in Hawaii with Urban's system and Tebow would not be the front runner. People would be calling him a system QB. The media will never say Tebow is a system QB, but June was smart. He knew what he was doing. Now they're all thinking twice.

I've looked at it again and your opinion makes sense, but i dunno if the coach is smart enough to knowingly make these comments to disrupt the mass opinion on tebow ..

I apologize for my incorrect opinion.. i missed the part where he said what he wanted to come from his comments

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 10:02 PM
June Jones said Favre couldn't make it in the NFL... that's all I need to know about his ability to evaluate talent. Look, Jones is a smart man, and he's been around the NFL game for a long time, but that doesn't mean we have to accept what he says and believe it to be true.

Tebow is only a sophomore, so burying his pro prospects this early into his college career is extremely premature. He has excellent size and arm strength, and he's obviously got mobility, so I do think he can be an NFL QB. Yes, he has a slow and awkward release, but that can be improved upon. I think he's clearly got more tools, physically, than Alex Smith who, say what you want about him, did go first overall. Tebow's physical tools won't be what stops him... it'll be his slow release if anything, and he somewhat makes up for that with his mobility.
June Jones never criticized Tebow's pro prospects.

someone447
12-04-2007, 10:25 PM
I don't think you guys are understanding what was said. There have been "system qbs" that have succeeded in the NFL. Jeff Garcia for one, and I will probably get quite a bit of flack for this one, but Joe Montana also. Being a system qb does not automatically mean you can't succeed in the NFL. It only means you have to be put in the right situation.

From what I have seen of Tim Tebow(admittedly not enough) he probably wouldn't run the Run and Shoot all that great. I think he would put up Timmy Chang like numbers. Tebow's skill set translates to a certain type of offense. He is a system QB in the same way that VY is a system qb. McNabb does not run the WCO as effectively as someone like Jeff Garcia. But Jeff Garcia probably wouldn't run any OTHER offense as good as McNabb.

Tim Tebow is very good at everything, but not great at anything. Colt Brennan is a GREAT passer. There may not be a better pure passer to have come out in the last 5 years. Yes, obviously he stats would be much worse if he wasn't in the Run and Shoot, but if you watch him. He can make every single throw you could ask a qb to make.

The Patriots and Packers both run offenses that can compare to the run and shoot. What people don't understand about scouting, you cannot look at the stats. You have to watch the person play. Colt Brennan may be in a system that inflates his stats, but he is not a system qb, because he can excel in any system asked of him(probably not the option, but I digress). Tim Tebow is also in a system that inflates his stats. As of right now he can succeed in any offense, but probably not excel. It is unfair to compare the two, seeing as Tebow is only in his first year starting. I have a feeling his passing will improve dramatically over the next year or two.

killa3312
12-04-2007, 10:27 PM
June Jones never criticized Tebow's pro prospects.

He sure as hell seemed to indicate such.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 10:30 PM
He sure as hell seemed to indicate such.
How so? He put it out there that Tebow's stats are system generated. He never once indicated how Tebow would do in the NFL.

yourfavestoner
12-04-2007, 10:34 PM
He says that because Colt can run ANY system... he's not defined by his system. Tebow couldn't run Hawaii's system because he's not accurate. He may become accurate down the line, but he's not a great passer now.

WTF? Since when is Tim Tebow not accurate? Stop trying to pimp your boy; it's getting pathetic now.

Here's a great post that sums Tebow up.

To me, it seems it's really way too early to tell with Tebow. Physically, there's no question he has the tools to succeed. There is no argument about his arm strength or running ability, both of which are superb. Surprising to most that don't actually watch him is that his accuracy is also extremely good as well. Whoever mentioned his accuracy as a con is clearly going by the "running QB" stigma rather than actually watching. Tebow is a more accurate pure passer than Chris Leak ever was at Florida, people just assume the opposite because Leak was a pocket passer and Tebow is a runner.

The "wait and see" on Tebow comes in the mental aspect. At this point, he can't drop back on 3rd and 15 and read the field to find the open guy quickly on a consistent enough basis. But, he's only a sophomore in his first year as a starter so that ability may or may not come.

People most commonly compare him to Vince Young, but in reality that comparison is a joke. Tebow is 100x the pure passer at this point in his career that Vince Young was at this point in his career. It took Young almost two months as a starter to throw as many TD passes TOTAL as Tim Tebow has in several INDIVIDUAL games this year.

If Vince Young passes well enough to make it in the pros, then Tebow certainly throws more than well enough. At this point in Young's career people's perception of him as a passer was that he was a complete and utter joke at it.

Tebow has never played poorly in a game in college. Never. Not once. There's almost no one else in the country (including the ENTIRE rest of the list of heisman candidates). At worst here, we can say "wait and see". There is absolutely zero basis for saying Tebow will make a poor prospect at this point.

And to the guy who mentioned Eric Crouch is off their rocker. Crouch ran a pure blooded option offense. There was no dropback passing. Tebow drops back and passes A LOT in the spread offense. Crouch threw for 7 touchdowns in his heisman winning year, Tebow has thrown for 29 this year with a game still left to play. Crouch and Tebow are no more similar than Herschel Walker and Adam Archuleta.

Let's not forget that Alabama made a HUGE push to recruit Tebow to run their pro-style offense. A guy like Crouch would never have been considered for even a D2 schools' pro-style offense. Nor should we forget that Tebow broke all kinds of PASSING records in high school in Florida, and last I heard that state has had some pretty decent players go through there.

FreeBaGeL
12-04-2007, 10:50 PM
Of course Tebow's numbers are part of the system. First off, they have no RB. Secondly, he's asked to rush. He won't have those rushing #s and TDs in Hawaii's system. Alex Smith executed Meyer's offense perfectly. Chris Leak lead them to the Championship. Colt Brennan could do well in it as well. Tebow is a better rusher than them, and he does it well, but his numbers are still because of the plays called for him.

If Chris Leak played on this year's team instead of Tebow (with this year's defense) Florida would be lucky to win 5 games.

yourfavestoner
12-04-2007, 10:53 PM
If Chris Leak played on this year's team instead of Tebow (with this year's defense) Florida would be lucky to win 5 games.

With that comment, I truly believe D-Unit doesn't know a damn thing about Florida football.

UF has won in past years despite Chris Leak, not because of him. He got a name for being this great, composed pocket passer because of his National Championship game, but the guy was the biggest puss in the world. tOSU lost that game because they refused to pressure Chris Leak.

FreeBaGeL
12-04-2007, 10:56 PM
Just for kicks:

Tyler Graunke has 118 pass attempts this year for Hawaii, enough to draw some conclusions from. Here is how he compares to Brennan in the same system, with the same WRs, and the same O-line:

Brennan completed 71% of his passes. Graunke completed 65%.
Brennan averaged 8.84 yards per attempt. Graunke averaged 9.25 yards per attempt.
Brennan threw a touchdown once in every 12.4 attempts. Graunke threw a touchdown once in every 13.1 attempts.
Brennan's QB rating was 166.31. Graunke's QB rating was 159.68.

Graunke also ran for touchdowns more often per time played than Brennan did.

46 of those 118 attempts for Graunke came against Nevada, who was the 3rd best passing defense Hawaii played. Also of note, the only game where they both played significant time (Utah State, where Brennan got hurt right around half time) Graunke had 3x the ypa and quadrupled Brennan's TD total in half the attempts.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 11:01 PM
Just for kicks:

Tyler Graunke has 118 pass attempts this year for Hawaii, enough to draw some conclusions from. Here is how he compares to Brennan in the same system, with the same WRs, and the same O-line:

Brennan completed 71% of his passes. Graunke completed 65%.
Brennan averaged 8.84 yards per attempt. Graunke averaged 9.25 yards per attempt.
Brennan threw a touchdown once in every 12.4 attempts. Graunke threw a touchdown once in every 13.1 attempts.
Brennan's QB rating was 166.31. Graunke's QB rating was 159.68.

Graunke also ran for touchdowns more often per time played than Brennan did.

46 of those 118 attempts for Graunke came against Nevada, who was the 3rd best passing defense Hawaii played. Also of note, the only game where they both played significant time (Utah State, where Brennan got hurt right around half time) Graunke had 3x the ypa and quadrupled Brennan's TD total in half the attempts.
Graunke isn't as bad as you think, but he's more Timmy Chang than Colt Brennan.

someone447
12-04-2007, 11:05 PM
Just for kicks:

Tyler Graunke has 118 pass attempts this year for Hawaii, enough to draw some conclusions from. Here is how he compares to Brennan in the same system, with the same WRs, and the same O-line:

Brennan completed 71% of his passes. Graunke completed 65%.
Brennan averaged 8.84 yards per attempt. Graunke averaged 9.25 yards per attempt.
Brennan threw a touchdown once in every 12.4 attempts. Graunke threw a touchdown once in every 13.1 attempts.
Brennan's QB rating was 166.31. Graunke's QB rating was 159.68.

Graunke also ran for touchdowns more often per time played than Brennan did.

46 of those 118 attempts for Graunke came against Nevada, who was the 3rd best passing defense Hawaii played. Also of note, the only game where they both played significant time (Utah State, where Brennan got hurt right around half time) Graunke had 3x the ypa and quadrupled Brennan's TD total in half the attempts.

9 TDs 5 INTs compared to 38 TDs 14 INTs.

That isn't even comparable.

It is the same thing with Timmy Chang, he threw a hell of a lot more ints than Brennan did.

If you want to find a Run and Shoot qb who had a pretty good NFL career, look no farther than Neil Lomax.

Iamcanadian
12-04-2007, 11:13 PM
a direct quote from the video YOU posted... [speaking of colt brennan] "He's not a system quarterback like Tim Tebow." 15seconds into that video.

nah, he's not saying Colt isn't a system quarterback... i see what you're saying.

I think what he is saying is that Colt has real talent and can play in any system and be productive while Tebow needs Meyer's system to be successful.
I'm not sure I completely buy that line about Tebow but I certainly think Colt has a real shot at a solid pro career while Tebow will have a huge adjustment to make.
A player is only a system QB when he lacks the talent to be successdul in another offense, especially a pro offense. Jones is simply saying that Colt has real talent that pro teams covet and can make that move to pro ball because of it.

soybean
12-04-2007, 11:39 PM
LOL. did you guys see tim tebow respond to June Jones comments?

Tim Tebow: well I ran it in high school so I think i'd be ok... i dont know... I guess it depends on the system you're in
[reporters laugh]
Reporter: What do you think of Colt Brennan?
Tim Tebow: he's a good quarterback... he's in a good system... [smirk]
[reporters laugh]

he was kind of smug in that interview.

D-Unit
12-04-2007, 11:43 PM
LOL. did you guys see tim tebow respond to June Jones comments?

Tim Tebow: well I ran it in high school so I think i'd be ok... i dont know... I guess it depends on the system you're in
[reporters laugh]
Reporter: What do you think of Colt Brennan?
Tim Tebow: he's a good quarterback... he's in a good system... [smirk]
[reporters laugh]

he was kind of smug in that interview.
LOL. He thinks he ran it in HS?

[the State of Hawaii laugh]

someone447
12-04-2007, 11:45 PM
LOL. He thinks he ran it in HS?

[the State of Hawaii laugh]

If he ran anything like it, it was a much simplified version.

Run and Shoot supporters, UNITE!

FreeBaGeL
12-05-2007, 12:00 AM
LOL. He thinks he ran it in HS?

[the State of Hawaii laugh]

No one asked Tebow if he could run Hawaii's offense. The question the reporter asked was "do you think you could run a run and shoot offense?".

Which he did, in high school, which was his answer.

Isn't Hawaii's scheme a bit more complicated then boiling it down to the terms "run and shoot"?

Average OT LB
12-05-2007, 12:01 AM
Just for kicks:

Tyler Graunke has 118 pass attempts this year for Hawaii, enough to draw some conclusions from. Here is how he compares to Brennan in the same system, with the same WRs, and the same O-line:

Brennan completed 71% of his passes. Graunke completed 65%.
Brennan averaged 8.84 yards per attempt. Graunke averaged 9.25 yards per attempt.
Brennan threw a touchdown once in every 12.4 attempts. Graunke threw a touchdown once in every 13.1 attempts.
Brennan's QB rating was 166.31. Graunke's QB rating was 159.68.

Graunke also ran for touchdowns more often per time played than Brennan did.

46 of those 118 attempts for Graunke came against Nevada, who was the 3rd best passing defense Hawaii played. Also of note, the only game where they both played significant time (Utah State, where Brennan got hurt right around half time) Graunke had 3x the ypa and quadrupled Brennan's TD total in half the attempts.

The numbers just go to show that they have the tools and talent as well as the right system to put up some huge numbers.

But lets not get carried away, Colt takes that system to a whole new level. He is very much the better quarterback NFL prospect at this time. In 2 years, who knows. But right now, regardless of how others play in his stead, Colt makes that offense and not the other way around.

FreeBaGeL
12-05-2007, 12:06 AM
9 TDs 5 INTs compared to 38 TDs 14 INTs.

That isn't even comparable.

It is the same thing with Timmy Chang, he threw a hell of a lot more ints than Brennan did.

If you want to find a Run and Shoot qb who had a pretty good NFL career, look no farther than Neil Lomax.

Graunke through 5 INTs in 2.5 games but one of those games was against Nevada, the 3rd best pass defense on Hawaii's schedule. In Brennan's 3 games against the other decent pass defenses on their schedule he threw 11 INTs.

Timmy Chang also turned the ball over a lot less than Brennan, so I don't know where you got this idea that Chang throws more INTs. Brennan threw an INT once every 33 attempts this year. Chang threw one once ever 46 attempts.

FreeBaGeL
12-05-2007, 12:12 AM
The numbers just go to show that they have the tools and talent as well as the right system to put up some huge numbers.

But lets not get carried away, Colt takes that system to a whole new level. He is very much the better quarterback NFL prospect at this time. In 2 years, who knows. But right now, regardless of how others play in his stead, Colt makes that offense and not the other way around.

Oh I certainly agree with you. Colt is leaps and bounds better than anyone else in that offense, but there's no doubt that offense is successful regardless of who they put in there. More successful with Brennan than the others because he's better than them, but it's not like he's coming in and throwing 55 TDs a year after the team struggled to throw 15 TDs the year before.

He's putting up all those touchdowns in the same offense the last guy put up 40 TDs in, and the same offense that the next guy will probably put up 40 TDs in as well. Tebow has put up 51 TDs in 12 games, whereas the previous QB in the same offense put up 23 TDs in 14 games.

Tebow and Brennan are both great QBs who have their numbers aided by a system perfectly tailored for them. Neither would put up 50 TDs in a different system, but both would still be good in a different system.

However to claim one is a system QB and one is not, when the one being accused of being a system QB is the one outplaying the system by more than the other is wrong.

Iamcanadian
12-05-2007, 12:12 AM
The numbers just go to show that they have the tools and talent as well as the right system to put up some huge numbers.

But lets not get carried away, Colt takes that system to a whole new level. He is very much the better quarterback NFL prospect at this time. In 2 years, who knows. But right now, regardless of how others play in his stead, Colt makes that offense and not the other way around.

I agree, good assessment.

D-Unit
12-05-2007, 12:14 AM
Graunke through 5 INTs in 2.5 games but one of those games was against Nevada, the 3rd best pass defense on Hawaii's schedule. In Brennan's 3 games against the other decent pass defenses on their schedule he threw 11 INTs.

Timmy Chang also turned the ball over a lot less than Brennan, so I don't know where you got this idea that Chang throws more INTs. Brennan threw an INT once every 33 attempts this year. Chang threw one once ever 46 attempts.
You really need to get a clue.

FreeBaGeL
12-05-2007, 12:15 AM
A player is only a system QB when he lacks the talent to be successdul in another offense, especially a pro offense. Jones is simply saying that Colt has real talent that pro teams covet and can make that move to pro ball because of it.

It's worth noting that Alabama made a HUGE recruiting push to try and get Tebow to run their pro-style offense.

FreeBaGeL
12-05-2007, 12:17 AM
You really need to get a clue.

Let's just make sure I've got this straight.

He tells me that Chang threw way more INTs than Brennan does.

I look up the actual numbers and see that Chang threw 13 INTs in 602 attempts (one every 46 attempts) while Brennan threw 14 INTs in 472 attempts (one every 33 attempts) and I'M the one that needs to get a clue?

Riiiggghhhttt...

D-Unit
12-05-2007, 12:25 AM
Let's just make sure I've got this straight.

He tells me that Chang threw way more INTs than Brennan does.

I look up the actual numbers and see that Chang threw 13 INTs in 602 attempts (one every 46 attempts) while Brennan threw 14 INTs in 472 attempts (one every 33 attempts) and I'M the one that needs to get a clue?

Riiiggghhhttt...
Timmy Chang holds the NCAA record of 80 Interceptions. ...and I saw every one.

D-Unit
12-05-2007, 12:26 AM
Let's just make sure I've got this straight.

He tells me that Chang threw way more INTs than Brennan does.

I look up the actual numbers and see that Chang threw 13 INTs in 602 attempts (one every 46 attempts) while Brennan threw 14 INTs in 472 attempts (one every 33 attempts) and I'M the one that needs to get a clue?

Riiiggghhhttt...
Oh and Brennan threw those INTs on a badly sprained ankle that he shouldn't have played on... and also in a mud fest.

Average OT LB
12-05-2007, 12:27 AM
Let's just make sure I've got this straight.

He tells me that Chang threw way more INTs than Brennan does.

I look up the actual numbers and see that Chang threw 13 INTs in 602 attempts (one every 46 attempts) while Brennan threw 14 INTs in 472 attempts (one every 33 attempts) and I'M the one that needs to get a clue?

Riiiggghhhttt...

Chang 2436 attempts 117 touchdowns 80 interceptions 3 4,000+ yard seasons

Brennan 1546 attempts 131 touchdowns 39 interceptions 2 4000 seasons 1 5,000 season

"Riiiggghhhttt"

RyanLeaf#1
12-05-2007, 07:44 AM
Graunke isn't as bad as you think, but he's more Timmy Chang than Colt Brennan.

I think Graunke is terrible. I would take Chang any day over Graunke.

keylime_5
12-05-2007, 09:12 AM
Meyer's 'gimmick' offense is arguably the best in the nation... their efficiency is staggering.

BTW, Tebow was a concensus five star recruit in high school and was recruited by Michigan, LSU, and USC, none of which run the spread. Pete Carroll wanted him badly, but nah... he's just a system QB.

Who wouldn't want a QB like Tebow running their offense. He'd be a star QB anywhere he'd go...but his numbers this year are b/c he's in that system, they'd be a lot different in a pro system or at another school, or if say Florida actually had a decent tailback. Tebow's overwhelming success this year is from being in Urban Meyer's gimmick shotgun spread offense.

D-Unit
12-05-2007, 11:55 AM
I think Graunke is terrible. I would take Chang any day over Graunke.
He can be frustrating to watch. I think 3rd string QB Inoke Funaki is actually a better QB.

RyanLeaf#1
12-05-2007, 12:25 PM
He can be frustrating to watch. I think 3rd string QB Inoke Funaki is actually a better QB.

I think if they bring a JUCO transer QB in he should start over Grunke.

D-Unit
12-05-2007, 02:28 PM
I think if they bring a JUCO transer QB in he should start over Grunke.
Watch out for the name Jacob Bower. ;)

#1 JUCO QB has Hawaii near the top of his list. Visit scheduled for Dec 15.

andyjo672
12-05-2007, 03:40 PM
BTW, I voted that he was wrong because he shouldn't have brought up Tebow's name. But hey, when you're at the top and everyone is ignoring your faults that are the same faults being blamed on your QB... what's a guy to do?

Glad he opened up some eyes, even though it wasn't the ethical thing to do.

There was nothing unethical about it at all. Ethics never came into question here. Was it classy? No. Was it mature? No. But to call it unethical is a ridiculous overstatement. Ethics boil down to slightly more deep, intense topics: Death penalty, abortion, war/pacifism, etc.

PS: Tebow's response to June was good. When asked how he thinks he would do in the Run and Shoot offense he said something along the lines of, "Look at my high scool numbers, I think I did pretty well."

D-Unit
12-05-2007, 04:02 PM
There was nothing unethical about it at all. Ethics never came into question here. Was it classy? No. Was it mature? No. But to call it unethical is a ridiculous overstatement. Ethics boil down to slightly more deep, intense topics: Death penalty, abortion, war/pacifism, etc.

PS: Tebow's response to June was good. When asked how he thinks he would do in the Run and Shoot offense he said something along the lines of, "Look at my high scool numbers, I think I did pretty well."
It's called football ethics, smarty pants. There are social ethics, work ethics, all kinds of ethics. ...depends on the situation/environment. You're the one being ridiculous.

Tebow's response was cute, but HS numbers can't validate anything.

andyjo672
12-05-2007, 04:53 PM
It's called football ethics, smarty pants. There are social ethics, work ethics, all kinds of ethics. ...depends on the situation/environment. You're the one being ridiculous.

Tebow's response was cute, but HS numbers can't validate anything.

You know, I've been watching football for about 15 years now. I've never actually heard of football ethics. And the ethic you refer to in work ethic, doesn't have the same meaning as social ethics. What June Jones said didn't lack any ethics, "football" or otherwise, it lacked social grace.

And I didn't say HS numbers validate anything, I just thought it was a funny response.

andyjo672
12-05-2007, 04:54 PM
PS: I would make the argument that Hawaii quarterback numbers can't validate anything. They should put an asterik next to those numbers.

Turtlepower
12-05-2007, 05:03 PM
PS: I would make the argument that Hawaii quarterback numbers can't validate anything. They should put an asterik next to those numbers.

I would put that same asterisk on Tim Tebow's QB numbers. As well as Darren McFadden's rushing numbers. Both of these players play in a system, so why aren't their numbers an asterisk?

someone447
12-05-2007, 05:14 PM
You know, I've been watching football for about 15 years now. I've never actually heard of football ethics. And the ethic you refer to in work ethic, doesn't have the same meaning as social ethics. What June Jones said didn't lack any ethics, "football" or otherwise, it lacked social grace.

And I didn't say HS numbers validate anything, I just thought it was a funny response.

Well, I have been playing football for 10 years, and I have most definitely heard of football ethics. You don't run up the score, a coach does not talk negatively about a player on another team, you don't play to injure people, etc.

no love
12-05-2007, 06:45 PM
Chang 2436 attempts 117 touchdowns 80 interceptions 3 4,000+ yard seasons

Brennan 1546 attempts 131 touchdowns 39 interceptions 2 4000 seasons 1 5,000 season

"Riiiggghhhttt"

This whole stat analysis stuff is getting ridiculous. Anyone who has seen Brennan and Chang play will tell you that they are vastly different players in terms of their talent level. And if you try to make a comparison of the two beyond playing in the same system, then you are just showing how ignorant your are.

Judge the players by their skill set and use stats to back it up.

For instance, when you take a stat like interceptions, both guys threw so many passes that interceptions are inevitable and a bad measure. Interceptions happen for so many different reasons when you have only 14 interceptions, it is not the same as saying "well he made 14 bad decisions" as some ints are due to the WRs misreading coverage on an option route, a corner back making a bad play, or due to pressure.

Even if your argument was that every int was a very bad decision... 14 very bad decisions vs. 337 good decisions, is pretty damn good. It just seems rather silly don't you think?

Inevitably when judging a qb look at how accurate the qb is, where he delivers his passes to his wrs, whether he has the arm strength to make all of the throws in the nfl, whether he can escape the pocket and make the accurate pass on the run. That is, if you actually watch hawaii play...

someone447
12-05-2007, 07:17 PM
This whole stat analysis stuff is getting ridiculous. Anyone who has seen Brennan and Chang play will tell you that they are vastly different players in terms of their talent level. And if you try to make a comparison of the two beyond playing in the same system, then you are just showing how ignorant your are.

Judge the players by their skill set and use stats to back it up.

For instance, when you take a stat like interceptions, both guys threw so many passes that interceptions are inevitable and a bad measure. Interceptions happen for so many different reasons when you have only 14 interceptions, it is not the same as saying "well he made 14 bad decisions" as some ints are due to the WRs misreading coverage on an option route, a corner back making a bad play, or due to pressure.

Even if your argument was that every int was a very bad decision... 14 very bad decisions vs. 337 good decisions, is pretty damn good. It just seems rather silly don't you think?

Inevitably when judging a qb look at how accurate the qb is, where he delivers his passes to his wrs, whether he has the arm strength to make all of the throws in the nfl, whether he can escape the pocket and make the accurate pass on the run. That is, if you actually watch hawaii play...

Exactly. He uses stats like a drunk man uses a lamppost, for support rather than illumination.

D-Unit
12-05-2007, 07:51 PM
You know, I've been watching football for about 15 years now. I've never actually heard of football ethics. And the ethic you refer to in work ethic, doesn't have the same meaning as social ethics. What June Jones said didn't lack any ethics, "football" or otherwise, it lacked social grace.

And I didn't say HS numbers validate anything, I just thought it was a funny response.
No, not work ethic as far as your work drive... At work (place of employment) there is a code of conduct that you must abide by. Gee ma nees.

someone447
12-05-2007, 08:04 PM
No, not work ethic as far as your work drive... At work (place of employment) there is a code of conduct that you must abide by. Gee ma nees.

Business ethics would probably have been a better way to phrase that.

D-Unit
12-05-2007, 08:29 PM
Business ethics would probably have been a better way to phrase that.
Ah Yeeeesssssss............. http://www.deadlyfiregfx.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/apploud.gif

hot route
12-06-2007, 06:11 PM
jones just wanted to give the national media a small sampling of what he has to go through to defend colt's talents EVERY DAY. that being said, maybe tebow couldnt succeed in the R&S b/c of its complicated reads.. but i'd bet safe money he could succeed in any other system.