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zCaddyz
12-31-2007, 10:44 AM
Cant wait till the game, i think we should pull out a win if we stop there run game "TROTTER" and our o-line needs to step up

Beans
12-31-2007, 04:35 PM
Big game for me. I'm against pretty much all of my family and a lot of my friends.

Tampa 2 4 life
12-31-2007, 06:38 PM
Cant wait till the game, i think we should pull out a win if we stop there run game "TROTTER" and our o-line needs to step up

Are you saying Ruud isn't good against the run...?

Bucs 17-14. They're beat up, we can run on them, we have a physical D, and Eli is there QB.

Caddy
01-01-2008, 05:02 AM
Don't worry about zCaddyz T2. It's hard to understand what he is trying to say at the best of times.

zCaddyz
01-01-2008, 02:00 PM
nah ruuds of the chain wit it u knows dude does his dizzle naw mean but the boy trotter is dumb sick it wit it stright up head bussa..............in other words there rb ways more then ruud and i think trotter would be better for the run

Caddy
01-01-2008, 05:44 PM
See what I mean...

zCaddyz
01-01-2008, 07:58 PM
weights more then ruud is what i mean

Caddy
01-02-2008, 06:22 AM
I wasn't just referring to that particular spelling error.

zCaddyz
01-02-2008, 06:49 AM
i know, i wrote the other way just because if u cant understand when i write normal then im not and keep it hood lol

etk
01-02-2008, 08:45 AM
I'm lost.

Trotter is a monster. He moves a lot better than one would expect because he knows where to be on the field. There would be no drop-off between him and Ruud.

Chucky
01-02-2008, 09:51 AM
I'm lost.

Trotter is a monster. He moves a lot better than one would expect because he knows where to be on the field. There would be no drop-off between him and Ruud.

Except in Coverage, and he still doesnt move as well as Ruud, and is probably not in as good shape, there would be a big drop off IMO(unless of course you are joking, in which case disregard this)

Caddy
01-02-2008, 06:29 PM
Why mess with something that works? Ruud will see the majority of plays at LB this week and I think the only time that Trotter sees the field is during obvious running downs where I'd be tempted to replace June instead of Ruud anyway.

zCaddyz
01-02-2008, 10:58 PM
yeah i forgot about june, what do you guys think out him i only remember him in the first half of the season but i havent really been keeping a eye out

Caddy
01-03-2008, 01:11 AM
yeah i forgot about june, what do you guys think out him i only remember him in the first half of the season but i havent really been keeping a eye out

He has been good. Can't really fault him for a whole lot this year. But honestly, you can't really fault a whole lot of players on defense this year.

Jughead10
01-03-2008, 01:23 PM
Do you guys often not sell out games? I think there are still a bunch of tickets left. I know they tried to put a restriction on them only allowed Florida residents to buy them. But apparently the district attonery of NY wrote a threatening letter and got that removed today.

etk
01-03-2008, 01:39 PM
Except in Coverage, and he still doesnt move as well as Ruud, and is probably not in as good shape, there would be a big drop off IMO(unless of course you are joking, in which case disregard this)

Umm, I don't think so. Trotter got great depth in coverage and made some nice tackles from it. He actually saved some touchdowns. Coverage is about footwork and technique, not speed. Ruud might be faster or more athletic than Trotter, but Trotter moves very well for his size. He plays like a man possessed. Ruud is getting too much credit for his tackle output, when really the MLB in our scheme is supposed to make all the tackles. I'd be happy with either player starting.

Do you guys often not sell out games? I think there are still a bunch of tickets left. I know they tried to put a restriction on them only allowed Florida residents to buy them. But apparently the district attonery of NY wrote a threatening letter and got that removed today.

The Bucs actually sell a ton of season tickets and have a huge waiting list. We have great attendance, but playoff football is different. I was at the Panthers game and guys were saying that the crowd would be a problem because Tampa residents can't afford the playoff tickets, especially after Christmas. Obviously NY/NJ is a different story and we have a lot of empty seats available for this game for those who can afford it.

Jughead10
01-03-2008, 01:41 PM
.
The Bucs actually sell a ton of season tickets and have a huge waiting list. We have great attendance, but playoff football is different. I was at the Panthers game and guys were saying that the crowd would be a problem because Tampa residents can't afford the playoff tickets, especially after Christmas. Obviously NY/NJ is a different story and we have a lot of empty seats available for this game for those who can afford it.

Thats a bad move by the Bucs then. The tickets are expensive. I looked and was shocked. I put best available and they gave me seats in the second level that were 350 each. I don't believe the Giants raise their ticket prices much, if at all for the playoffs. Bad move by the Bucs for pricing out their loyal fans. Just going by what I see on other all Giants mesage boards, there are a ton of people traveling down to Florida this weekend.

etk
01-03-2008, 01:45 PM
Thats a bad move by the Bucs then. The tickets are expensive. I was looked and was shocked. I don't believe the Giants raise their ticket prices much, if at all for the playoffs. Bad move by the Bucs for pricing out their loyal fans. Just going by what I see on other all Giants mesage boards, there are a ton of people traveling down to Florida this weekend.

It's a horrible move. The Tampa area is a beautiful place to visit nonetheless, so I can't see why Giants fans wouldn't wanna make the trip for a weekend. They might not wanna make it into too much of a home game, you know, being 7-1 on the road and all.

Jughead10
01-03-2008, 01:48 PM
I definitely considered going down for this one. However it seemed a bit too expensive for a three day trip right after the holidays.

etk
01-03-2008, 01:51 PM
I definitely considered going down for this one. However it seemed a bit too expensive for a three day trip right after the holidays.

It's expensive, but it's definitely worth it.

Jughead10
01-03-2008, 01:53 PM
It's expensive, but it's definitely worth it.

Maybe. I've been to the Giants last two playoff games (one at home, and one at Philly), and we've lost both. I think maybe its best I sit this one out.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-04-2008, 09:58 AM
Maybe. I've been to the Giants last two playoff games (one at home, and one at Philly), and we've lost both. I think maybe its best I sit this one out.

Yeah I been a jinx past couple games so I decided I am going not going to go for a while until I feel better about it! lol.

Caddy
01-04-2008, 10:31 PM
June Doubtful, Sears Questionable. Not the greatest news in the world going into a playoff game.

http://www.pewterreport.com/articles/view/3783 (http://www.pewterreport.com/articles/view/3783)

etk
01-05-2008, 04:25 PM
June Doubtful, Sears Questionable. Not the greatest news in the world going into a playoff game.

http://www.pewterreport.com/articles/view/3783 (http://www.pewterreport.com/articles/view/3783)

BLEEEEEP at June doubtful. We need our best guys in the box against Jacobs, at least Nece has experience.

Sears is no big deal. He played like crap near the end of the season and Lehr looked good against the Panthers. Very small drop off IMO. We run mostly to the right anyway and I don't think that will change, as Lehr is great at pulling.

Caddy
01-05-2008, 05:48 PM
Yeah at least the players who may need to fill in have plenty of starting experience although it always hurts to lose starters no matter who they are.

etk
01-05-2008, 06:01 PM
Yeah at least the players who may need to fill in have plenty of starting experience although it always hurts to lose starters no matter who they are.

It hurts losing starters in a game when you were planning on using them sparingly anyway. What are the chances?

Caddy
01-05-2008, 08:58 PM
It hurts losing starters in a game when you were planning on using them sparingly anyway. What are the chances?

Unfortunately for us, the chances were pretty good. :(

etk
01-06-2008, 01:33 PM
I'll be 100% shocked if we win this game.

Caddy
01-06-2008, 01:35 PM
Hopefully half-time will give the team time to turn the game back in our favour. Wait till the 4th quarter before passing full judgment.

Beans
01-06-2008, 01:37 PM
fuuuuuuuuuuuuck


dammit spurlock

Caddy
01-06-2008, 01:38 PM
Love him one week, hate him the next.

kingjames
01-06-2008, 01:38 PM
I know GMen fans have killed Corey Webster but he looks pretty good today.

High pick some years back from the Saban system (better zone players than man) but he has allegedly struggled.

What is the story on him?

etk
01-06-2008, 01:59 PM
I have officially stopped watching the game. Good season boys, I'm really starting to despise Gruden.

Beans
01-06-2008, 02:31 PM
I have officially stopped watching the game. Good season boys, I'm really starting to despise Gruden.

not sure hows it his fault, our defense is looking like ****

Chucky
01-06-2008, 02:55 PM
Missing Tanardand Cato killed us. ****, im really pissed off right now. WR is our number 1 need without a doubt going into the off-season, as well as LB depth.

Beans
01-06-2008, 03:01 PM
WR is our number 1 need without a doubt going into the off-season, as well as LB depth.

i think we could use some youth infusion at corner, as well

WR is tops though

Tampa 2 4 life
01-06-2008, 03:03 PM
Is it just me or did Garcia look jittery after he got pressure on him and started throwing off target(I saw the same thing in the Jacksonville Game.)?

Chucky
01-06-2008, 03:06 PM
**** **** ****, Im still so ******* pissed. SHitballs

etk
01-06-2008, 03:12 PM
Why's everyone so pissed? I expected us to lose.

zCaddyz
01-06-2008, 03:19 PM
ugh. it hurts we need a playmaker at w.r. and coners anyone got chad johnsons number? And i hope theres big changes in the offseason like no JG and a new DC i love monte and i know what he has done for us but we need change

NY+Giants=NYG
01-06-2008, 03:44 PM
Good game guys. I honestly think schedule toughness is what helped us overcome a slow start. I always hated being in the NFC east, but starting to actually like the fact we play in a tough division. Just keep drafting well, and you guys will be back.

Chucky
01-06-2008, 03:48 PM
ugh. it hurts we need a playmaker at w.r. and coners anyone got chad johnsons number? And i hope theres big changes in the offseason like no JG and a new DC i love monte and i know what he has done for us but we need change

That was the stupidest comment I have ever heard. A new DC, are you kidding me, Monte Kiffen is one of the best in the business, and we have strucutured our personell on defence around his defence, to fire him would just be retarted. Also I dont believe Jon Gruden should leave, I still think he is an amazing head coach, and one of the best offensive minds in the game, we just need to get him some more weapons, I mean look what he did with and undrafted free agent at both running back and QB and with two over their prime recievers. I was very satisfied with both Gruden and Kiffen this year

etk
01-06-2008, 03:59 PM
Let's look at Chucky's track record since we won the Super Bowl...what? 5 years ago?

2003: 7-9
2004: 5-11
2005: 11-5. Upset at home by Washington after one of the most disappointing offensive performances of recent memory.
2006: 4-12
2007: 9-7. Upset at home (handily) by the New York Giants.

It's time for Gruden to go. His offense just plain stinks and doesn't work. He also sucks at drafting. We have more than enough talent and resources to build a strong team next year with a different coach, hopefully Kiffin with a new OC. I don't feel like going into depth over how bad of a coach and coordinator he is just yet, but we really need to fire him. If we keep him another year, we'll be accepting mediocrity and it will show weakness in our ownership.

Chucky
01-06-2008, 04:13 PM
Let's look at Chucky's track record since we won the Super Bowl...what? 5 years ago?

2003: 7-9
2004: 5-11
2005: 11-5. Upset at home by Washington after one of the most disappointing offensive performances of recent memory.
2006: 4-12
2007: 9-7. Upset at home (handily) by the New York Giants.

It's time for Gruden to go. His offense just plain stinks and doesn't work. He also sucks at drafting. We have more than enough talent and resources to build a strong team next year with a different coach, hopefully Kiffin with a new OC. I don't feel like going into depth over how bad of a coach and coordinator he is just yet, but we really need to fire him. If we keep him another year, we'll be accepting mediocrity and it will show weakness in our ownership.

I dont consider 3 division championships and a Super Bowl over 6 years to be mediocore. Thats better than most teams do in 10-15 years. While Gruden may not be a great drafter. Last year I think we had the best draft in the league out of anyone( I realize we had the 4th pick, but still).I dont think there is anyway we should fire Gruden after taking a 4-12 to being a division champion and making the playoffs, be realistic, that doesnt show weakness in the ownership

etk
01-06-2008, 04:46 PM
I can't argue with you there, we just have different standards with coaches. I will say that Baltimore did the same thing with Brian Billick: He won a Super Bowl, then struggled with mediocrity for many years, never maintaining a decent offense. Finally Steve Bisciotti learned his lesson and fired Billick just recently. I don't want us to struggle for another few years with Gruden's poor offense and playcalling. You do realize if it wasn't for Kiffin and his defense we would be one of, if not the worst teams in the league for the past 5 years? 2 playoff appearances and zero wins with a defense as talented and dominant as ours? 33-46 overall record? Your time's up Chucky.

Chucky
01-06-2008, 04:52 PM
I can't argue with you there, we just have different standards with coaches. I will say that Baltimore did the same thing with Brian Billick: He won a Super Bowl, then struggled with mediocrity for many years, never maintaining a decent offense. Finally Steve Bisciotti learned his lesson and fired Billick just recently. I don't want us to struggle for another few years with Gruden's poor offense and playcalling. You do realize if it wasn't for Kiffin and his defense we would be one of, if not the worst teams in the league for the past 5 years? 2 playoff appearances and zero wins with a defense as talented and dominant as ours? 33-46 overall record? Your time's up Chucky.

Well I think that if our defence had been as "dominant" as it had been all year then this would be a non issue and we would be gearing up to play the cowboys next week. And also its not Grudens fault Garcia didnt make the throws that he had been making all year, today

etk
01-06-2008, 05:10 PM
Garcia was fine. It was Gruden who didn't have an answer to the Giants pass rush, which was an expected issue. You can't leave Trueblood one-on-one against Strahan all game. He scripted some of the worst pass plays. We didn't take advantage of mismatches and we didn't have any good deep routes to beat the Giants safeties. We just kept throwing to the inside where there was major traffic. We didn't motion Galloway enough to free him from the jam. Gruden didn't prepare our offense well for this game, and it showed. On the other hand, Gilbride and the Giants took advantage of our D's achilles heel...the short pass.

Caddy
01-06-2008, 05:31 PM
etk is right. We were not only outplayed, but outcoached too. We failed to get significant pressure on Manning which allowed him to make countless short passes to Toomer, Smith, Boss and his running backs. Whilst the Giants were consistently pressuring Garcia and not allowing him to get comfortable in the pocket.

Chucky
01-06-2008, 05:40 PM
Garcia was fine. It was Gruden who didn't have an answer to the Giants pass rush, which was an expected issue. You can't leave Trueblood one-on-one against Strahan all game. He scripted some of the worst pass plays. We didn't take advantage of mismatches and we didn't have any good deep routes to beat the Giants safeties. We just kept throwing to the inside where there was major traffic. We didn't motion Galloway enough to free him from the jam. Gruden didn't prepare our offense well for this game, and it showed. On the other hand, Gilbride and the Giants took advantage of our D's achilles heel...the short pass.

Garcia was trying to force throws to garcia and made very poor throws, for example that interception to webster and that long pass to galloway in the endzone, that was a very poorly thrown ball and very flat. Also that ball that went through michael johnsons hands was a poor decision and throw. THere wasanother example in the first half where it was a 3rd and around 8, garcia escaped some pressure buth then made a low throw to someone(i think galloway). THose are all throws that garcia usually makes and u cant blame gruden to get the same production and decision making out of garcia that he got all year

Tampa 2 4 life
01-06-2008, 05:45 PM
Why would we fire a coach one year after we just practically rebuilt?

zCaddyz
01-06-2008, 06:04 PM
"Best offensive minds in the game" could of fooled me

Bucs147
01-06-2008, 06:39 PM
Giants were playing 8 men in the box with a heavy 6 men pass rush zone-blitz because our deep ball game just sucked today. Both Garcia and Galloway were injured and were playing like crap. Since his injury against Washington, Garcia is awful. He was awful against both Atlanta and San Francisco. Galloway was unable to run any deep route today with all his injures. The lack of deep ball game killed the Bucs O. Plus, a healthy Jeff Garcia would have run the ball sometimes to gain some yards instead of forcing the play and throw pretty bad pass. A healthy Garcia and Galloway would have changed that game.

Also, I love Monte Kiffin, but he brought no adjustments during the game. He focused on Jacobs and let Manning play his game. Giants understood that after the 1st quarter and start to throw the ball. Manning had no-pressure during all the game. You have to force Manning to force the play if you want him to throw his bonehead pass. Bad game for Kiffin, but he is still a great defensive coordinator. He doesnít suck. I feel the same way about Gruden. Average game, but his career isnít over.

The Bucs just start to rebuild, how can you change the coach?

Caddy
01-06-2008, 07:24 PM
Not a bad post for a first timer. You are right on a lot of things but I really doubt that a healthy Garcia and Galloway (they weren't far from 100% anyway) would have made much difference at all. The Giants defense just plain schooled us.

etk
01-06-2008, 09:14 PM
Yeah, like NFL.com said, we got home schooled. Personally, I've had enough embarassment, and I'd like a new offense. If Gruden can completely reinvent the offense, he can stay. Otherwise I'll have my arms crossed until he's fired.

zCaddyz
01-06-2008, 09:21 PM
I mean gruden had years to do something on the offense and really hasn't, two times teams came to our home-field in the playoffs and beat us. and also like a wise man once said ou with the old and in with the new and that means players too.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-06-2008, 09:21 PM
Not a bad post for a first timer. You are right on a lot of things but I really doubt that a healthy Garcia and Galloway (they weren't far from 100% anyway) would have made much difference at all. The Giants defense just plain schooled us.

A big plus for our team was firing Tim Lewis our DC who was with us when we went to the playoffs last 2 years. Spags is what our team needed, and I truly believe the coaches, specifically the coordinators earned their pay. Some who is close to the giants, who we rely on said, the week of the Pats game we got rid of alot of option routes in our passing game, and simplified it alot. I think that's key because our passing game never looked this game two games in a row, so something if def. changed.

Caddy
01-06-2008, 09:31 PM
The Giants defensive coordinator definitely deserves a lot of credit for the win. Osi, Strahan & co never let our offense get going (not that it has ever been that great) which allowed Eli Manning to control and consequently win the game.

etk
01-06-2008, 10:39 PM
I mean gruden had years to do something on the offense and really hasn't, two times teams came to our home-field in the playoffs and beat us. and also like a wise man once said ou with the old and in with the new and that means players too.

I like what he's done with our offensive personnel. I like it a lot. He just hasn't created an effective system, hasn't called any sort of consistent and effective plays, and hasn't game planned well for different opponents. It seems like we go into every week with the same thing happening on offense, which doesn't work in the NFL, especially not in the playoffs. We need to reshape our offense or find someone else who can.

zCaddyz
01-06-2008, 11:14 PM
ditto 67890

dbtb135
01-07-2008, 07:19 PM
Garcia was fine. It was Gruden who didn't have an answer to the Giants pass rush, which was an expected issue. You can't leave Trueblood one-on-one against Strahan all game. He scripted some of the worst pass plays. We didn't take advantage of mismatches and we didn't have any good deep routes to beat the Giants safeties. We just kept throwing to the inside where there was major traffic. We didn't motion Galloway enough to free him from the jam. Gruden didn't prepare our offense well for this game, and it showed. On the other hand, Gilbride and the Giants took advantage of our D's achilles heel...the short pass.

Garcia played as bad as anyone, even taking pressure into account. On the end zone INT Webster had, Garcia had good protection and just threw an awful ball.

The protection was bad, but we've got a young OL and they've got the best pass rushing DL in the league. It was a big hurdle to overcome, a few different adjustments doesn't mean that we wouldn't be completely over-matched by faster players.

Deep routes? Joey was injured. Anyone, including an injured Joey, would take days to get deep down-field. Garcia would be in a heap on the ground by the time Clayton or Ike or Stovall got 35 yards deep. Galloway couldn't beat the jam anywhere you put him on the field. HE WAS INJURED! HIS ONLY SKILL (SPEED) WAS TAKEN AWAY. No adjustment is going to help him. Blaming that on Gruden is really reaching, and you know it.

etk is right. We were not only outplayed, but outcoached too. We failed to get significant pressure on Manning which allowed him to make countless short passes to Toomer, Smith, Boss and his running backs. Whilst the Giants were consistently pressuring Garcia and not allowing him to get comfortable in the pocket.

The 2nd half was unwatchable because of our defense. We schemed to stop the pass, many times dropping 7. Yet our zone played behind the rush was so soft that I could complete consistent 5-15 yard throws. How you drop 7 men back IN ZONE and not have one defender within 5 yards of a WR who's at the sticks is beyond me. And we didn't adjust by bringing more or playing more man. Thats what got me. On offense, we WERE over-matched by superior talent. On defense, we weren't. We had some guys who could bring pressure off the end, we had solid LBs, we had all our corners healthy. The T-Jax loss did hurt us, but the Giants didn't beat us on the FS. They beat us on Ronde and Buchanon and Kelly. Monte is as much to blame on this loss as anyone, if not moreso, and it stings to say that because he's been the rock of this team for the past dozen years.

dbtb135
01-07-2008, 07:23 PM
Giants were playing 8 men in the box with a heavy 6 men pass rush zone-blitz because our deep ball game just sucked today. Both Garcia and Galloway were injured and were playing like crap. Since his injury against Washington, Garcia is awful. He was awful against both Atlanta and San Francisco. Galloway was unable to run any deep route today with all his injures. The lack of deep ball game killed the Bucs O. Plus, a healthy Jeff Garcia would have run the ball sometimes to gain some yards instead of forcing the play and throw pretty bad pass. A healthy Garcia and Galloway would have changed that game.

Also, I love Monte Kiffin, but he brought no adjustments during the game. He focused on Jacobs and let Manning play his game. Giants understood that after the 1st quarter and start to throw the ball. Manning had no-pressure during all the game. You have to force Manning to force the play if you want him to throw his bonehead pass. Bad game for Kiffin, but he is still a great defensive coordinator. He doesnít suck. I feel the same way about Gruden. Average game, but his career isnít over.

The Bucs just start to rebuild, how can you change the coach?

I agree about Galloway.

But as someone who has a decent grasp of the game, you should know the Giants 90+ yard drive, consistent with most of the 2nd half, was against our defense dropping 7. Thats not playing Jacobs and making Manning beat you.

etk
01-08-2008, 09:34 AM
I agree about Galloway.

But as someone who has a decent grasp of the game, you should know the Giants 90+ yard drive, consistent with most of the 2nd half, was against our defense dropping 7. Thats not playing Jacobs and making Manning beat you.

Yeah, we just couldn't stop the short pass. Either our DBs weren't in the right spots or our LBs weren't getting to their landmarks quick enough. A lot of it is common sense too. If it's third and medium, cover up the middle because the slot is probably gonna do a slant. I don't like how we always have the same zone coverage because it's easy to diagram routes to beat it. Kiffin needs to put our guys in better spots in coverage.

Jughead10
01-08-2008, 09:41 AM
Yeah, we just couldn't stop the short pass. Either our DBs weren't in the right spots or our LBs weren't getting to their landmarks quick enough. A lot of it is common sense too. If it's third and medium, cover up the middle because the slot is probably gonna do a slant. I don't like how we always have the same zone coverage because it's easy to diagram routes to beat it. Kiffin needs to put our guys in better spots in coverage.

Honestly, as a Giants fan, I think your team underestimated Eli. Eli pump faked the crap out of your defense all day. It was obviously part of our gameplan. He moved your defenders around in their zone pretty much wherever he pleased and then hit open guys. That was the plan and it worked. He pump faked maybe 3 times the amount he normally does during that game. The Tampa 2 tries to take away the deep ball. We let you do that. Not attempting many deep balls at all, if any. But we took whatever we wanted short to intermediate. Your coaches should have popped in our tape against Detroit, because our gameplan was similar against the same defense up there.

etk
01-08-2008, 10:45 AM
That's the same thing the Colts did early in the season to run up and down our defense, and it worked. Manning threw one deep pass and it was picked off, while his seconds deepest pass got Clark laid out. They learned their lesson and attack us mostly with comeback routes. Later in the year we saw even mediocre teams like Houston, SF & Carolina go to that strategy and have success. It's a major problem going into next year.

Jughead10
01-08-2008, 10:52 AM
What do you think the problem is. Has age caught up with certain players on that defense and they just can't cover as much zone as they used to.

Also Giants coaches said the last TD was planned for Eli to pump fake Ronde. They wanted him to get one on Ronde.

etk
01-08-2008, 10:56 AM
I think the problem is our defense is too predictable and OCs can script patterns knowing where the soft spots are in the zone. Other than Ronde and maybe Brooks our defenders have 0 instincts in zone coverage and simply cover grass, so receivers always get open on short-to-medium routes. The only way we stop that kind of passing game is to jump some passes and get turnovers. If we play against a decent QB that takes care of the football and throws quickly we just get pummeled. For example, Washington and Jason Campbell went up and down the field twice on us to try to tie late in the ballgame, and both times we got INTs in the red zones to save ourselves. We need to have a better answer to this problem than hoping for a turnover.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-11-2008, 12:58 PM
My Giants and Bucs breakdown

http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=267177

NY+Giants=NYG
01-11-2008, 01:58 PM
[QUOTE=Shockey+Manning=Shocking;834021]My Giants and Bucs breakdown
is here.

http://www.savefile.com/files/1311983