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View Full Version : Staying or Going: Lions Offseason Roster Moves


Xiomera
01-13-2008, 09:26 AM
Here is a good article from Tom Kowalski that breaks down who is likely to return, and who is likely to be gone for next season:

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2008/01/marinellis_offseason_should_be.html

Some notable points:


Defensive backs
Staying: Travis Fisher, Gerald Alexander, Daniel Bullocks and Idrees Bashir
Leaving: Fernando Bryant, Keith Smith, Stanley Wilson and Kenoy Kennedy
On the bubble: Dovonte Edwards, Greg Blue and Ramzee Robinson
Summary: Fisher and Smith both are free agents and the Lions want them both back, but Fisher is more likely to re-sign because he has a larger role in the defense. Fisher will be the team's nickel back, which means they're still looking for two new starters -- I don't expect last year's starters, Fernando Bryant and Stanley Wilson, to return. The Lions will address this position heavily in the draft, especially in the first three rounds. Because they're so thin, don't be surprised to see the Lions draft two or three cornerbacks overall.
With Alexander and Bullocks, who will be returning from injured reserve, starting at safety, Kennedy -- because he isn't strong on special teams -- isn't a viable candidate for a backup spot.


With Lenon expected to be moved to the strong side, the Lions have to find a quality middle backer who has the speed to get downfield but the power to blast running backs in the short passing game. That's a position the Lions could address with their first-round draft pick (No. 15 overall).

I believe [Roy] Williams is going to be used as trade bait leading up to the draft because he'll likely bolt when he becomes a free agent in 2009.

Discuss . . .

JPLUFF
01-13-2008, 10:22 AM
Somewhat surprised to see both Wilson and Smith go. Bryant and Kennedy have been disappointing since they first arrived here though, so that's not the end of the world.

They better keep Greg Blue as well.

wingboy2999
01-13-2008, 12:49 PM
I am surprised at well. I wish we would have atleast kept one. Because, come on, filling TWO starter spots at a position that was already weak for us? This sucks.

P-L
01-13-2008, 02:40 PM
I actually think Lenon could be serviceable at SLB, or at least better than Boss Bailey.

wingboy2999
01-13-2008, 03:19 PM
They have said that he can play that position better.

detroit4life
01-13-2008, 04:52 PM
moving lenon to SLB is smart because there is no way we fill 2 LB spots this off season.
I hope they bring smith back but one way or the other i think we'll be looking for 2 cbs who can start.

wingboy2999
01-13-2008, 05:16 PM
I REALLY don't like having to fill 2 spots at CB.

detroit4life
01-13-2008, 05:35 PM
if bryant retires idk what our other choices would be. Fisher would be a terrible starter and same goes for wilson and smith IMO. They could work if we needed it too but if we can get a FA cb and draft one in day one then it could work out

Xiomera
01-13-2008, 08:29 PM
I think it would be a mistake to cut Kennedy. Bullocks and Alexander are the future, of course, but Kennedy didn't play bad this year, and we could still use him around. It'd be nice to have the insurance he provides until we know Bullocks is healthy and effective.

Xiomera
01-13-2008, 08:30 PM
Based on this, I would then say that our needs are as follows:

1) CB
2) MLB
3) OT
4) Another CB
5) DE

wingboy2999
01-13-2008, 08:40 PM
Now that Justin King declared I'd like to look at him in the 2nd - 3rd.

detroit4life
01-13-2008, 10:10 PM
Based on this, I would then say that our needs are as follows:

1) CB
2) MLB
3) OT
4) Another CB
5) DE

why do u have DE so low?

wingboy2999
01-13-2008, 10:42 PM
Technically it is only 4th, haha.

Scotty D
01-13-2008, 10:50 PM
I can see Kennedy getting moved on draft day for a second day pick. It's a common occurrence during the draft with players like him. Or maybe a trade up later in the draft.

These plans are certainly interesting. I've never heard anyone say anything about Lenon to SLB. It's going to be interesting where we find our MLB. I'm not that high on Connor and who knows if he's going to be around with our 15th pick. Free agency holds little options for MLB. There are some possible trade options but I'm just really wish I knew who they were going to target. I mean they have already slated Lenon to SLB so who do they have in mind?

Bootland27
01-13-2008, 11:57 PM
I don't think Wilson or Smith are starting corners in this league, and we really need to upgrade both of the starting corner spots, if Bryant does retire. I guess we could sign Trufant and get another corner with experience such as a Brian Kelly.

Contrary to many beliefs, I don't know how Lenon will do at SLB. You need to have some speed in this defense, regardless of any LB position you play and thats why I think he will struggle. He is a backup at best.

Looking at MLB, I don't know if there's any good FAs who are available and I pray to god they don't trade for Vilma. So, Our best bet may be to take Dan Connor.

Last but not least, we should keep Roy. If they wanna get rid of someone, get rid of either Furrey or Mcdonald. Who knows how effective they're gonna be without Martz???

wingboy2999
01-14-2008, 12:06 AM
Trufant, like Suggs, is a long shot. We need to get one through the draft or a middle tier CB. Who else can we look at?

Xiomera
01-14-2008, 11:53 AM
why do u have DE so low?

For one, I feel like it will be easier to get a DE than it will the other positions. We just scooped up Dewayne White last year and he is a fine starter. MLB's and OT's are in short supply and high demand. Focus on those positions first. And as for CB, since we need two starters, that trumps DE too.

That said, all are huge needs, and I suppose it doesn't really matter which order we address them in since we won't be a contender until they are all filled.

Bootland27
01-14-2008, 01:24 PM
Trufant, like Suggs, is a long shot. We need to get one through the draft or a middle tier CB. Who else can we look at?

Brian Kelly is also a FA. Knows the system, but is on the wrong side of 30. I believe Dominique Foxworth may also be a FA who could be on the move with champ and dre out in Denver.

detroit4life
01-14-2008, 03:50 PM
i think one of our starters will come through the draft im just praying both wont be

Addict
01-15-2008, 04:51 AM
what we need for me to believe again is

1. good FA
2. good draft
3. a 5-0 record

The Legend
01-15-2008, 05:25 AM
why is Manny Ramirez on the bubble

Iamcanadian
01-15-2008, 07:58 AM
Sometimes you guys kill me. The Cover 2 defense starts with a tremendous pass rush. If a team like Detroit cannot mount that kind of pass rush, then the CB's and LB's are left exposed no matter who you have playing those positions. We play zone defense that's what Cover 2 team play, we don't need sensational CB's or LB's to have a very good defense, we need a pass rush and without it we are always going to have a very mediocre defense.
We simply must find a great pass rusher to team with White who is adequate but not a star. Once that DE is found, our CB and LBing play will improve immeasurably as QB's won't have all day to pick our zone defense apart.
Indy, another Cover 2 team had its defense picked apart by San Diego as soon as Feeney couldn't go. Without his great pass rush, even an average QB like Rivers could shred Indy's defense which ranked 3rd overall, all season long. Indy has nobody at LB and nobody at CB but as long as they got a great pass rush nobody had the time to expose them.
Let's see we and Tampa Bay had poor records last year and drafted in the top 10. Both are Cover 2 teams needing the same talent for its defense to work. We drafted Calvin, they drafted Gaines Adams a DE, they improved and made the playoffs, we didn't. There is a message there for all Cover 2 teams, unfortunately I doubt Millen sees it.

Xiomera
01-15-2008, 11:35 AM
Sometimes you guys kill me. The Cover 2 defense starts with a tremendous pass rush. If a team like Detroit cannot mount that kind of pass rush, then the CB's and LB's are left exposed no matter who you have playing those positions. We play zone defense that's what Cover 2 team play, we don't need sensational CB's or LB's to have a very good defense, we need a pass rush and without it we are always going to have a very mediocre defense.
We simply must find a great pass rusher to team with White who is adequate but not a star. Once that DE is found, our CB and LBing play will improve immeasurably as QB's won't have all day to pick our zone defense apart.
Indy, another Cover 2 team had its defense picked apart by San Diego as soon as Feeney couldn't go. Without his great pass rush, even an average QB like Rivers could shred Indy's defense which ranked 3rd overall, all season long. Indy has nobody at LB and nobody at CB but as long as they got a great pass rush nobody had the time to expose them.
Let's see we and Tampa Bay had poor records last year and drafted in the top 10. Both are Cover 2 teams needing the same talent for its defense to work. We drafted Calvin, they drafted Gaines Adams a DE, they improved and made the playoffs, we didn't. There is a message there for all Cover 2 teams, unfortunately I doubt Millen sees it.

I'd much rather just have some talented LB's and CB's than relying on one Defensive End to be the key to the entire defensive unit.

The Colts are stupid for relying on Dwight Freeney in a way. If he is the key, then they better have some insurance at the position in case he gets hurt (which he did).

Having a well rounded defense is the key. I know Cover 2 relies on pass rush, but its foolish to think that a DE will solve our problems. Especially considering that we have ZERO Cornerbacks on the roster that we actually like and trust as an organization. Pass rush will mean nothing if no one is covering the receivers. HA!

jbombul
01-15-2008, 12:37 PM
Sometimes you guys kill me. The Cover 2 defense starts with a tremendous pass rush. If a team like Detroit cannot mount that kind of pass rush, then the CB's and LB's are left exposed no matter who you have playing those positions. We play zone defense that's what Cover 2 team play, we don't need sensational CB's or LB's to have a very good defense, we need a pass rush and without it we are always going to have a very mediocre defense.
We simply must find a great pass rusher to team with White who is adequate but not a star. Once that DE is found, our CB and LBing play will improve immeasurably as QB's won't have all day to pick our zone defense apart.
Indy, another Cover 2 team had its defense picked apart by San Diego as soon as Feeney couldn't go. Without his great pass rush, even an average QB like Rivers could shred Indy's defense which ranked 3rd overall, all season long. Indy has nobody at LB and nobody at CB but as long as they got a great pass rush nobody had the time to expose them.
Let's see we and Tampa Bay had poor records last year and drafted in the top 10. Both are Cover 2 teams needing the same talent for its defense to work. We drafted Calvin, they drafted Gaines Adams a DE, they improved and made the playoffs, we didn't. There is a message there for all Cover 2 teams, unfortunately I doubt Millen sees it.


don't attribute all of tampa's success to adams. the addition of jeff garcia and the play of earnest graham certainly had alot to do with that as well, although i do agree with you our need for a pass rush trumps alot of other needs

TacticaLion
01-15-2008, 01:31 PM
Sometimes you guys kill me. The Cover 2 defense starts with a tremendous pass rush. If a team like Detroit cannot mount that kind of pass rush, then the CB's and LB's are left exposed no matter who you have playing those positions. We play zone defense that's what Cover 2 team play, we don't need sensational CB's or LB's to have a very good defense, we need a pass rush and without it we are always going to have a very mediocre defense.
We simply must find a great pass rusher to team with White who is adequate but not a star. Once that DE is found, our CB and LBing play will improve immeasurably as QB's won't have all day to pick our zone defense apart.
Indy, another Cover 2 team had its defense picked apart by San Diego as soon as Feeney couldn't go. Without his great pass rush, even an average QB like Rivers could shred Indy's defense which ranked 3rd overall, all season long. Indy has nobody at LB and nobody at CB but as long as they got a great pass rush nobody had the time to expose them.
Let's see we and Tampa Bay had poor records last year and drafted in the top 10. Both are Cover 2 teams needing the same talent for its defense to work. We drafted Calvin, they drafted Gaines Adams a DE, they improved and made the playoffs, we didn't. There is a message there for all Cover 2 teams, unfortunately I doubt Millen sees it.
No... you kill me.

Stop using TB as your excuse... as said before, they didn't become a playoff team with Gaines Adams alone. How about adding a good QB? Surprising play from a lesser-known RB? Development on their OLine? We kept the same, average QB, struggled on the OLine and barely ran the ball. That, and the fact that their division is horrible this year, are just a few of the reasons why Tampa made the playoffs. Stop using that argument... it doesn't work.

You're also suggesting that Gaines Adams would've won us the same number of games that CJ did... and at least 2 more... to make us a "playoff team" like the Bucs were. Even then, we would've missed the playoffs had things unfolded like they did this year. Be realistic... Gaines wouldnt've had that big of an impact for us.

Try this stat out, IAC: The Detroit Lions finished the season with 37.0 sacks, tied for 9th in the NFL and only 1 behind the Minnesota Vikings. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers finished the season with 33.0 sacks, tied for 16th in the NFL. So, if the point of the Cover 2 is to get pressure on the QB, and Tampa has been building their defense the "right way", why did we finish with more sacks? That "Gaines Adams" argument is trash.

I get the impression that, instead of actually looking at our roster, you just read from a book: "The Cover 2 needs a great pass-rush from the front 4". We know. We get it. Now, look at our personnel:

DE:
Dewayne White - Great season until the injury. 6.5 sacks, 3 FFs and 1 INT.
Jared DeVries - Great season. Made plays when he was on the field... didn't even start, but had 6.5 sacks, 3 FFs and 3 FRs.
Corey Smith - Only started 2 games but finished the season with 2.5 sacks and 3 FFs. Needs to play more.
Kalimba Edwards - Played very well until the injury early in the season. Played in 8 games (started 6) and finished with 3.0 sacks and 2 FFs.
Shaun Rogers - Solid first half, but weak second half. 7.0 sacks, 1 FF and 1 INT.
Cory Redding - Made a much bigger impact than the stats would lead you to believe. Only finished with 1 sack.

CB:
Fernando Bryant - The only CB on the roster that could start on another team (and as a #2).
Stanley Wilson - A better #3 or #4 option in a traditional defense.
Keith Smith - Makes big plays but struggles as well. A true #4.
Travis Fisher - Struggles. Wouldn't start on another team.
Dovonte Edwards - Made some nice plays late in the season but has to learn to play CB... the right way.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers' pass defense finished the season 1st in the NFL in passing yards against (170.5 yards/game average), whereas the Lions' pass defense finished 31st in the NFL (258.2 yards/game average). Yes, a pass-rush helps that number... but, if the pass-rush is measured in sacks, we outperformed them (Lions - T9th, Bucs - T16th).

If we can keep White healthy and use Edwards as a situational pass-rusher, our DLine is actually OK. Our secondary, though, will continue to be horrible without new, talented players. Look at the Eagles game: max protect and launch the ball. Why did it work? We have absolutely no talent at CB.

Oh... and Indy's CBs are actually very good... not a wise comment.

/general

Moving Lenon to SLB is a great move. Now, draft a stud MLB in round 1, CBs in rounds 2-3 and trade Roy for additional picks/talent. Give the front 4 talented players behind them... actually build a defense. That's what I want... and I'm glad they're looking in that direction.

(Anyone remember my man-crush on Willis? I remember a certain poster [IAC] questioning his impact at the professional level... I think Willis proved the point himself.)

bigredballer
01-15-2008, 01:34 PM
Let's see we and Tampa Bay had poor records last year and drafted in the top 10. Both are Cover 2 teams needing the same talent for its defense to work. We drafted Calvin, they drafted Gaines Adams a DE, they improved and made the playoffs, we didn't. There is a message there for all Cover 2 teams, unfortunately I doubt Millen sees it.

I think maybe there is something to do here with the fact that Tampa plays in a division where 1) Carolina went through 5? starting QB's. 2) Atlanta's best QB was the one and only Detroit castoff Joey H. AND their coach quit before the season ended AND their leader is in jail for dogfighting. 3) New Orleans started the season too late and ended too early, Bush is not the player people thought he would be....yet.

I think those factors had more to do with Tampa going to the playoffs and losing in the first round than just drafting Gaines Adams. Sure, they improved, but the other teams in their division stunk. Not exactly true for the North division with Green Bay and Minnesota.

Bootland27
01-15-2008, 02:58 PM
Sometimes you guys kill me. The Cover 2 defense starts with a tremendous pass rush. If a team like Detroit cannot mount that kind of pass rush, then the CB's and LB's are left exposed no matter who you have playing those positions. We play zone defense that's what Cover 2 team play, we don't need sensational CB's or LB's to have a very good defense, we need a pass rush and without it we are always going to have a very mediocre defense.
We simply must find a great pass rusher to team with White who is adequate but not a star. Once that DE is found, our CB and LBing play will improve immeasurably as QB's won't have all day to pick our zone defense apart.
Indy, another Cover 2 team had its defense picked apart by San Diego as soon as Feeney couldn't go. Without his great pass rush, even an average QB like Rivers could shred Indy's defense which ranked 3rd overall, all season long. Indy has nobody at LB and nobody at CB but as long as they got a great pass rush nobody had the time to expose them.
Let's see we and Tampa Bay had poor records last year and drafted in the top 10. Both are Cover 2 teams needing the same talent for its defense to work. We drafted Calvin, they drafted Gaines Adams a DE, they improved and made the playoffs, we didn't. There is a message there for all Cover 2 teams, unfortunately I doubt Millen sees it.

If you are insinuating that TB made the playoffs because they drafted Gaines Adams, you're wrong on so many levels. I can give you 20 reasons why TB made the playoffs and Gaines Adams wouldn't even be on that list. He was one of the least impactful players drafted in the top 10 not named Jamarcus Russell. 3 of his 5.5 sacks came against atlanta's morbid o-line in 2 games, but in the rest of the games he was barely visible and had just 2 sacks.

You wanna know the real reason why they made the playoffs???? I'm sure Ronde Barber and co. had something to do with allowing the 2nd fewest passing yards.