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Chucky
01-15-2008, 09:40 PM
From the oposing teams in the division, to add to your team. (1 from each team)

Panthers- Julius Peppers- hardest decision to make,Steve Smith was very close. Also Considered- Steve Smith- Peppers was just too much to pass up, but Smith fills the bucs number 1 need, so its tough

Saints-Jammaal Brown- Gives the bucs a stud LT, and solidifies the line

Falcons- Roddy White- Gives the bucs a good WR for the future. Also considered- Michael Boley -the bucs dont really need LB, but if brooks mentions retirement soon, then he is the pick., Deangelo Hall- great corner but not a fit for the Cover 2

thefalconer
01-15-2008, 10:01 PM
Bucs - Ruud. very underrated and will allow brooking to play at his more comfortable and capable position

Panthers - Steve Smith. with him, roddy white, and emerging rookie laurant robinson, they'll be too much for any secondary to handle

Saints - Brees. what can i say? we need a QB.

scar988
01-15-2008, 10:04 PM
New Orleans - QB Drew Brees

Tampa Bay - MLB Barrett Ruud

Carolina - RB DeAngelo Williams

Forenci
01-15-2008, 10:12 PM
Well for the Giants..

Cowboys - DeMarcus Ware: Actually kind of an interesting one since we run the 4-3. However in Spags system I feel like he could still be a beast in the 4-3. Put him at the weak side linebacker spot and allow him to blitz and make plays against the run. Would love to have him though, we lack a real play making linebacker.

Could you imagine on third down Osi Umenyiora, Justin Tuck, Mathias Kiwanuka, Michael Strahan AND DeMarcus Ware coming after the QB? Wow - I'd **** my pants if I was a QB.

Eagles - Lito Sheppard: Lito is a great CB. I think with him in our secondary we would be able to put our corners on an island more, giving us more confidence in the blitz. Lito Sheppard, Aaron Ross, Kevin Dockery and maybe Corey Webster would be an awesome tandem for the future.

Redskins - LaRon Landry: Easy one for me. Landry was one of my favorite players of the draft last year, absolutely loved him. He's a genuine player maker at the safety spot - something we lack. Plus he has versatility to play strong safety or free safety. An asset to the Giants. If we resign Gibril Wilson, we could have him play strong safety. If we don't then it's as simple as putting him at free safety and letting Michael Johnson play strong safety. Wilson and Landry would be a sick young combo though. Plus Wilson and Landry are two great blitzing safeties, something Spags loves to do.

Beans
01-15-2008, 10:21 PM
stuff

you got your own dang forum, foo'

etk
01-15-2008, 10:31 PM
.

ARRRRRRRRR!!!

Falcons:

Chris Houston. We need a CB pretty badly, and I'm madly in love with Chris Houston. I don't think any Bucs fan will forget how angry I was when we passed him up.

Panthers:

Steve Smith. Exactly the playmaker we need. JPep has had his play fall off and I'd rather get Smith and draft C. Campbell. Ryan Kalil was another guy we passed up that I'd like to have right now.

Saints:

Reggie Bush...jk. Drew Brees is my pick, and using him I'd reinvent our offense into a 4 WR spread. Steve Smith, Joey Galloway, Maurice Stovall & Michael Clayton, plus 3rd down Ike when you need him. CHAMPIONSHIP!

Caddy
01-15-2008, 10:31 PM
Panthers - Steve Smith
Saints - Jamaal Brown
Falcons - DeAngelo Hall

etk
01-15-2008, 10:34 PM
Panthers - Steve Smith
Saints - Jamaal Brown
Falcons - DeAngelo Hall

boo. notZ championshipZZZ.

Hall is a crybaby, and pretty much useless in a Cover 2. Houston is very young and very physical. Brown is okey, but so are our OTs. Scrap Gruden & Garcia, join the dark side and win the SB.

Forenci
01-15-2008, 10:35 PM
LOL, wtf? I totally thought this was under the 'NFL' section of the board, I don't know why. My apologies fellas.

etk
01-15-2008, 10:36 PM
LOL, wtf? I totally thought this was under the 'NFL' section of the board, I don't know why. My apologies fellas.

I was so close to starting a rep rape...consider yourself lucky. Apology accepted.

Chucky
01-15-2008, 10:39 PM
boo. notZ championshipZZZ.

Hall is a crybaby, and pretty much useless in a Cover 2. Houston is very young and very physical. Brown is okey, but so are our OTs. Scrap Gruden & Garcia, join the dark side and win the SB.

Brown is much better OK, he is one of the best young OT's in teh game, if not the best, and would be a huge improvement over Penn.

Also I would still prefer Peppers, because he is much younger and much more potential. Also he is a freak, and fits in perfectly at LDE, him and Gaines would be quite the Duo for the future

Caddy
01-15-2008, 10:41 PM
boo. notZ championshipZZZ.

Hall is a crybaby, and pretty much useless in a Cover 2. Houston is very young and very physical. Brown is okey, but so are our OTs. Scrap Gruden & Garcia, join the dark side and win the SB.

Yeah Hall is a cry baby, but he has some skills and I've never been a fan of Houston anyway. I think I'll stay on the light side, green/blue light sabers are better than red ones anyway :P.

etk
01-15-2008, 10:42 PM
Peppers is much younger...than who? He was born in '80 brother. What potential? If anything he's on the decline.

If you wanna talk freakish potential...talk Calais Campbell. Look me straight in my internet eyes and tell me Peppers & DeSean Jackson (if we're lucky) is better than Campbell & Smith.

Agree on Brown. Problem is we'd still have the same old scrub offense without the necessary QB to change it.

Yeah Hall is a cry baby, but he has some skills and I've never been a fan of Houston anyway. I think I'll stay on the light side, green/blue light sabers are better than red ones anyway :P.

Hall has definite skills...covering receivers man-to-man down the field. We don't need him here.

Chucky
01-15-2008, 10:42 PM
http://www.geocities.com/tomikaunisto/starwars/windu.jpg


He gets the snakes off the planes, thats all i need from my jedis

Caddy
01-15-2008, 10:46 PM
pfft etk.

Desean Jackson >>>>>>> Steve Smith & Calais Campbell combined.


/joke

Chucky
01-15-2008, 10:47 PM
Peppers is much younger...than who? He was born in '80 brother. What potential? If anything he's on the decline.

If you wanna talk freakish potential...talk Calais Campbell. Look me straight in my internet eyes and tell me Peppers & DeSean Jackson (if we're lucky) is better than Campbell & Smith.

Agree on Brown. Problem is we'd still have the same old scrub offense without the necessary QB to change it.



Hall has definite skills...covering receivers man-to-man down the field. We don't need him here.

I would like Campbell(even though im not so sure about him, but i dont want to get into that argument right now) and smith more, but if we were to take the draft into effect then we could easily package our first round pick, along with like our third rounder( probably wouldnt need to give that much but anyways) for an elite reciever like Ocho cinco or Roy Wiliams

Peppers + Ocho/Roy>>>>>>>> Smith + Campbell+ 3rd rounder

also regarding peppers being on the decline, he is only 27 years old and is now entering his prime, he will only improve and should regain his form from the past

etk
01-15-2008, 10:53 PM
I would like Campbell(even though im not so sure about him, but i dont want to get into that argument right now) and smith more, but if we were to take the draft into effect then we could easily package our first round pick, along with like our third rounder( probably wouldnt need to give that much but anyways) for an elite reciever like Ocho cinco or Roy Wiliams

Peppers + Ocho/Roy>>>>>>>> Smith + Campbell+ 3rd rounder

also regarding peppers being on the decline, he is only 27 years old and is now entering his prime, he will only improve and should regain his form from the past

Whoa...how dare you bring 2 picks and trade block WRs into the equation.

Peppers turns 28 in 3 days. I don't see how he's entering his prime now considering he put up 53.5 sacks in his first 5 years, with a measly 2.5 last year. Those numbers (age & sacks) indicate nothing but a declining football player to me.

Chucky
01-15-2008, 10:56 PM
Whoa...how dare you bring 2 picks and trade block WRs into the equation.

Peppers turns 28 in 3 days. I don't see how he's entering his prime now considering he put up 53.5 sacks in his first 5 years, with a measly 2.5 last year. Those numbers (age & sacks) indicate nothing but a declining football player to me.

Ya but being 28(the beginning of what is generally considered an athletes prime), does indicate that he is going into his prime. I truly believe that this one year is not a true indicate of what is in store for peppers, He has all the talent in the world and should be able to bounce back

etk
01-15-2008, 10:59 PM
Ya but being 28(the beginning of what is generally considered an athletes prime), does indicate that he is going into his prime. I truly believe that this one year is not a true indicate of what is in store for peppers, He has all the talent in the world and should be able to bounce back

He won't have another sub-5 sack performance for a while, but he's just not the same athlete he was when he first entered the league. FYI...28-29 is usually considered the end of a football player's prime.

Caddy
01-15-2008, 11:15 PM
I don't know if I'd consider 29 the end of a players prime, but I certainly wouldn't call it the beginning either.

Forenci
01-16-2008, 03:54 AM
I was so close to starting a rep rape...consider yourself lucky. Apology accepted.

Heh, much appreciated. I don't know what I was thinking. I need to stop using the 'New Posts' feature. Once in a while I do something moronic like this when I'm not paying attention.

I apologize for interrupting again, I just wanted to reiterate that as I am a complete moron it would seem. Sorry guys.

jdb1972
01-16-2008, 08:57 AM
Ryan Kalil was another guy we passed up that I'd like to have right now.
After how brutally bad he was at the beginning of this year, don't tempt me. :p

Re: Peppers, from what I've been told, he was sick and had to take medicine that left him... well, you saw his play this year. If that's correct, he should be fine next year. We'll see.

Three players:

Falcons - Roddy White. Started coming into his own, makes an exceptional complement to Smith. Considered Norwood, but we need more of a power back.

Bucs - Gaines Adams. Considered Jovan Haye just to make up for the mistake of letting him go in the first place, but he would look nice across from Pep. Thought about their LBs and corners, but those are probably the Panthers' deepest positions.

Saints - Jamaal Brown. Sorry to be unoriginal, but Wharton's a free agent and the line is being reshuffled. A good LT would be nice. Thought about McAllister, but age and injury make Brown a better pick.

D-Rod
01-16-2008, 09:33 AM
For the Falcons, it's actually quite obvious:

From the Saints, I want Brees, because we need a QB like crazy.

From the Panthers, I want Smith, because a combination of White, Smith and Robinson would be fantastic.

From the Bucs, well, actually, I'm not that fussed, but I'd take Ruud to replace Brooking at Mike.

etk
01-16-2008, 12:51 PM
Heh, much appreciated. I don't know what I was thinking. I need to stop using the 'New Posts' feature. Once in a while I do something moronic like this when I'm not paying attention.

I apologize for interrupting again, I just wanted to reiterate that as I am a complete moron it would seem. Sorry guys.

That's what I used to find this thread, but I always scroll my eyes from left to right just to be sure. Most new threads are in the Team Forums anyway.

iloxygenil
01-16-2008, 01:33 PM
Tampa Bay - Barrett Ruud - guy I wanted when he came out but Falcons weren't in a position to really draft him...but I'd love to wave bye bye to Brooking and insert this kid in next to Boley.

Carolina - Deangelo Williams - Another guy I really wanted the Falcons to pick up and has all the tools to be the feature back alongside Norwood...that'd be one great backfield to watch.

New Orleans - Jammaal Brown - Falcons need help on the offensive line, this kid gives us something to build with and helps protect whoever we get back at the QB spot.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-16-2008, 03:15 PM
Tampa Bay - Tanard Jackson. Gives us a hard hitting duo of good, young safeties for the first time ever.

New Orleans - Marques Colston. I thought about Brown because we really need a LT but this is just too perfect a fit. Smith and Colston would put Smith and Muhammed to shame

Atlanta - John Abraham. Honestly I think he may be one the most underrated star players in the NFL. Then again, maybe he's too injury prone to be considered a star. Either way, when healthy, he's a beast. Top DE in the league type beast. He solves the Rucker retirement problem and solidifies a DLine in flux with Peppers sucking, Kemo a JAG and Jenkins on his way out

ATLDirtyBirds
01-16-2008, 05:43 PM
Panthers-Steve Smith
Saints-Drew Brees
Bucs-Barrett Ruud

Flyboy
01-17-2008, 04:28 PM
Panthers - Steve Smith
Falcons - DeAngelo Hall
Bucs - Tanard Jackson

Auron
01-17-2008, 05:49 PM
Going to go against the grain..and go with some more under the radar guys. (to the casual non NFC South followers)

Falcons - Michael Boley: (LB) would give us a legitimate playmaker at the LB spot with the ability to play both ways and make the sideline to sideline tackles, and also give us solid pass coverage. I would try to play him at MIKE but I'm iffy on the fit there.. if not I would try to move Fujita inside, and keep Boley at the SAM.

Buccaneers - Jovan Haye: (DT) May seem like an odd pick but I wouldn't underestimate Haye's impact on the Buc's D-line this season. He's a quick penetrating UT with a great motor, who can really disrupt the Interior blocking which could open up our Edge rushers more and we really need some more talent at DT.

Panthers- Richard Marshall: (CB) A young and rising Corner, he's had some struggles but still manages to shine, everyone knows we desperately have a need at Cornerback and I really like Marshall's potential and I think he's a good fit for our Man-coverage scheme.

actually I do believe that adding those players could go a long way toward shoring up this Defense.

dbtb135
01-18-2008, 05:47 AM
He won't have another sub-5 sack performance for a while, but he's just not the same athlete he was when he first entered the league. FYI...28-29 is usually considered the end of a football player's prime.

I don't know where you get that. I think 30 is when fans start to mention age, and team's are less likely to throw big contracts at them. But there's plenty of Strahans, Derrick Brooks, TOs, Brett Favres, Charles Woodsons, Ray Lewis that play great well into their 30s. There's a stigma about 30, but I don't think the play drops off near anywhere near where it's made out to be. I think the prime goes a little into the 30s really.

It's easy for Steve Smith and Drew Brees from their respective teams. Falcons I just don't know. Maybe Rod Coleman for the short term, as Haye is more of a situational guy who was productive. Alge Crumpler maybe. Roddy White, there we go.

Caddy
01-18-2008, 06:50 AM
I don't know where you get that. I think 30 is when fans start to mention age, and team's are less likely to throw big contracts at them. But there's plenty of Strahans, Derrick Brooks, TOs, Brett Favres, Charles Woodsons, Ray Lewis that play great well into their 30s. There's a stigma about 30, but I don't think the play drops off near anywhere near where it's made out to be. I think the prime goes a little into the 30s really.

It's easy for Steve Smith and Drew Brees from their respective teams. Falcons I just don't know. Maybe Rod Coleman for the short term, as Haye is more of a situational guy who was productive. Alge Crumpler maybe. Roddy White, there we go.

I think the stigma on '30' is a purely historical term. As technology progresses, injury management improves, dieting improves and training methods improve, athletes are able to compete in their primes into their early or sometimes even late 30's.

etk
01-18-2008, 12:40 PM
I don't know where you get that. I think 30 is when fans start to mention age, and team's are less likely to throw big contracts at them. But there's plenty of Strahans, Derrick Brooks, TOs, Brett Favres, Charles Woodsons, Ray Lewis that play great well into their 30s. There's a stigma about 30, but I don't think the play drops off near anywhere near where it's made out to be. I think the prime goes a little into the 30s really.

It's easy for Steve Smith and Drew Brees from their respective teams. Falcons I just don't know. Maybe Rod Coleman for the short term, as Haye is more of a situational guy who was productive. Alge Crumpler maybe. Roddy White, there we go.

Woodson, Lewis and Brooks all saw their play fall off as they passed 30. They're still producing because they have talent, otherwise they would've retired already. Peppers will always be a solid LDE, but I think he's lost some of the burst and athleticism that made him a superstar in his first 3-4 years as a professional. The prime is when athletes play their best football. Only QBs, OL & maybe DTs consistently play their best football into their early 30s. A handful of exceptional players are the exception, not the trend.

I'm not buying the Haye argument. He doesn't get enough credit for the improvement of our defense. He put on a lot of pressure rushing his gap and was always involved when we made a big sack. He has a great motor and gave solid effort against the run despite a lack of size. I think he needs to work on keeping his stamina and drive at the end of drives, when he loses focus and gets driven back off the snap. I think he and Peterson are a solid 1-2 punch for the future.

Do we really need 2 WRs from other teams? I like White but we do have Clayton and Stovall, both of whom have shown promise this year, as well as Galloway and Hilliard who are yet to retire. I'd go with Chris Houston as a physical, young corner, which frees up a draft pick for luxuries like HB, C, etc.

dbtb135
01-18-2008, 07:31 PM
Woodson, Lewis and Brooks all saw their play fall off as they passed 30. They're still producing because they have talent, otherwise they would've retired already. Peppers will always be a solid LDE, but I think he's lost some of the burst and athleticism that made him a superstar in his first 3-4 years as a professional. The prime is when athletes play their best football. Only QBs, OL & maybe DTs consistently play their best football into their early 30s. A handful of exceptional players are the exception, not the trend.

Woodson is 31 (why would he retire already?) and playing as good as any CB in the NFL not named Champ Bailey. I don't think his play has fallen off at all from 3 years or so ago (your suggested end of his prime). He might even be playing better. Lewis and Brooks fell off in their MID 30s. Simeon Rice was as good as he ever was in 2005, 14 sacks in 15 games and an absolute terror in our playoff game. The main reason our defense was so good and we made the playoffs in the first place. How is that not considered to be in his prime?

This isn't a "handful of guys", it's most of them. Who are all the big time players that dropped off right after they turned 30?

How can you bring Peppers into the argument? He's not the same player because something is missing. Either he just lost it (ala Clayton), or he was juiced, or something. But I have no clue how you can make the connection of his play dropping off and his age. Thats ridiculous.

I'm not buying the Haye argument. He doesn't get enough credit for the improvement of our defense. He put on a lot of pressure rushing his gap and was always involved when we made a big sack. He has a great motor and gave solid effort against the run despite a lack of size. I think he needs to work on keeping his stamina and drive at the end of drives, when he loses focus and gets driven back off the snap. I think he and Peterson are a solid 1-2 punch for the future.

I'm giving him plenty of credit, I just don't think he's an every down lineman. He doesn't command doubles. His pressure disappeared in our playoff game.

Do we really need 2 WRs from other teams? I like White but we do have Clayton and Stovall, both of whom have shown promise this year, as well as Galloway and Hilliard who are yet to retire. I'd go with Chris Houston as a physical, young corner, which frees up a draft pick for luxuries like HB, C, etc.

I meant White/Smith as just an either/or option. I don't really know if I'd take both. But Clayton and Stovall definitely wouldn't stop me from anything.

As much as you (and others) bash guys like Trueblood and Sears, at least they play solid and are something you can hang your hat on. Clayton has done nothing but suck with the exception of a few DECENT games the past 3 seasons and people continue to make excuses for him.

BamaFalcon59
01-19-2008, 10:42 PM
Falcons

New Orlean Saints- Drew Brees
Carolina Panthers- Jon Beason
Tampa Bay Buccaneers- Davin Joseph

Saints was easy although Brown or the OG would be nice.

Panthers I like Beason a lot. Would replace Brooking. Peppers was second but coming off a down year. Jamaal Anderson is fat (with potential) so it would be an upgrade.

Buccaneers I like Tanard Jackson or Joseph. Joseph would be great paired inside with Blalock.

But we still would need

yuccaneers
01-20-2008, 01:33 PM
Falcons Michael Boley would replace Brooks better overall game and fit then June who gets alot of tackles after the first five yards

Panthers Chris Gamble good player with out the attitude of Hall

Saints Jammal Brown would help solidify the Bucs offensive line for years to come

Rich Jr
01-20-2008, 01:59 PM
Falcons-D. Hall-We need a shut down corner err I mean a corner.

Panthers-Steve Smith-We only have 2 WR's under contract right now, Colston (who is getting a FAT extension) and Meachem (who has never seen the field yet).

Bucs-Gaines Adams- I thought about Rudd but they run a Cover-2 and we run Man-to-Man so I feel Adams is a better fit. We could put Grant on the inside or keep Adams if we chose not to resign Smith.

etk
01-20-2008, 02:00 PM
Woodson is 31 (why would he retire already?) and playing as good as any CB in the NFL not named Champ Bailey. I don't think his play has fallen off at all from 3 years or so ago (your suggested end of his prime). He might even be playing better. Lewis and Brooks fell off in their MID 30s. Simeon Rice was as good as he ever was in 2005, 14 sacks in 15 games and an absolute terror in our playoff game. The main reason our defense was so good and we made the playoffs in the first place. How is that not considered to be in his prime?

This isn't a "handful of guys", it's most of them. Who are all the big time players that dropped off right after they turned 30?

How can you bring Peppers into the argument? He's not the same player because something is missing. Either he just lost it (ala Clayton), or he was juiced, or something. But I have no clue how you can make the connection of his play dropping off and his age. Thats ridiculous.



I'm giving him plenty of credit, I just don't think he's an every down lineman. He doesn't command doubles. His pressure disappeared in our playoff game.



I meant White/Smith as just an either/or option. I don't really know if I'd take both. But Clayton and Stovall definitely wouldn't stop me from anything.

As much as you (and others) bash guys like Trueblood and Sears, at least they play solid and are something you can hang your hat on. Clayton has done nothing but suck with the exception of a few DECENT games the past 3 seasons and people continue to make excuses for him.

Woodson has lost his athleticism. He has rejuvenated himself in a press defense, but he looks like a completely different player from his Wolverines and Raiders days. Saying he's one of the top corners in the league is a huge overstatement.

Once again, you've brought up a select few examples of NFL superstars that still have success in their early 30s. The reality is that most NFL players are out of the league by the time they turn 27-28. Runningbacks and cornerbacks start declining before they turn 30, as RBs get banged up and CBs lose speed (their game). There will always be ageless players like Joey Galloway and Brett Favre, but the reality is that very few players play their best football past 29. That is why every media source I've seen covering the NFL has projected the NFL prime at 25-28. That is why teams only pay big money for FAs under 29, and why CBS sportsline limits their FA rankings to those 28 and under.

Simeon Rice was 31 in 2005. It's no coincidence that he was cut by what...3 teams this year and he's now retired. He got hit by the injury bug, like most players over 30, and lost his explosiveness. There are other examples of Bucs who were cut after they turned 30...Warren Sapp, John Lynch, Shelton Quarles. Brian Kelly might be the next.

Peppers saw his play drop off for one reason or the other. It may not have to do with his age, but it is still proof of how it is difficult to sustain success in the NFL for a number of years. Players lose athleticism, interest, they become injured, etc. All factors for why the shelf life is short and the prime is young.

Your argument for Haye is pathetic. He doesn't command doubles? In case you've forgotten, we run a one-gap Tampa 2 defense. Our under tackle is not supposed to shut down the interior like Albert Haynesworth...he's supposed to control his gap and penetrate. I think Haye has done fine in that department, especially for his first year starting in our defense. Of course he didn't get pressure against the Giants...never in my life have I seen a defensive tackle get pressure against 3-step drops and quick throws. Our whole line didn't get pressure because our underneath coverage decided to go for a power nap.

I haven't bashed Sears once since the start of the season. I do make excuses for Clayton and Stovall because I see their talent and potential. What have they done wrong this season, anyway? Clayton has dropped a few tough passes in traffic, that's it. Stovall and Clayton are deadly on deep routes across the middle, but all Gruden does is use them on slants. He also failed to find ways to get Galloway the ball late in the season. Our offense has no creativity and Gruden recycles the same deep passing plays. I'm sick of the dink-and-dunk and how it inhibits our receivers' production and wastes their talents. In my Brees' shotgun offense, Clayton and Stovall would be terrific weapons.

oldLibid21
01-20-2008, 04:28 PM
Tampa Bay - Barrett Ruud - guy I wanted when he came out but Falcons weren't in a position to really draft him...but I'd love to wave bye bye to Brooking and insert this kid in next to Boley.

Carolina - Deangelo Williams - Another guy I really wanted the Falcons to pick up and has all the tools to be the feature back alongside Norwood...that'd be one great backfield to watch.

New Orleans - Jammaal Brown - Falcons need help on the offensive line, this kid gives us something to build with and helps protect whoever we get back at the QB spot.

Couldn't of said it better myself.

dbtb135
01-20-2008, 11:03 PM
Woodson has lost his athleticism. He has rejuvenated himself in a press defense, but he looks like a completely different player from his Wolverines and Raiders days. Saying he's one of the top corners in the league is a huge overstatement.

I disagree that he looks like a completely different player.

Once again, you've brought up a select few examples of NFL superstars that still have success in their early 30s. The reality is that most NFL players are out of the league by the time they turn 27-28. Runningbacks and cornerbacks start declining before they turn 30, as RBs get banged up and CBs lose speed (their game).

RBs, who have the shortest career and take the worst pounding of any position? Convenient choice.

There will always be ageless players like Joey Galloway and Brett Favre, but the reality is that very few players play their best football past 29.

I'm still asking who just drops off at 30? Players might not be at their athletic peak into their 30s, but they aren't judged on their athleticism, but rather their ability to play the game.

That is why every media source I've seen covering the NFL has projected the NFL prime at 25-28. That is why teams only pay big money for FAs under 29, and why CBS sportsline limits their FA rankings to those 28 and under.

I'm pointing out what I think is a misconception, then you come back with things that perpetuate it to begin with? Sportsline rankings? Thats TERRIBLE, yet classic etk. NFL teams also trade away proven, productive players for pennies on the dollar (Moss, Corey Dillon, Marshall Faulk) then give $60 mil to an unproved player.

Simeon Rice was 31 in 2005. It's no coincidence that he was cut by what...3 teams this year and he's now retired. He got hit by the injury bug, like most players over 30, and lost his explosiveness. There are other examples of Bucs who were cut after they turned 30...Warren Sapp, John Lynch, Shelton Quarles. Brian Kelly might be the next.

Rice was 31 when he was as good as ever, why is that not his prime to you? We cut Lynch and he played just as good as ever with the Broncos. Again, you're treating NFL front offices like they are infallible. They aren't. Quarles was THIRTY FIVE. We're not even having the same conversation now.

Peppers saw his play drop off for one reason or the other. It may not have to do with his age, but it is still proof of how it is difficult to sustain success in the NFL for a number of years. Players lose athleticism, interest, they become injured, etc. All factors for why the shelf life is short and the prime is young.

I'm not saying guys aren't in their prime when they are young, but how far does that go? Players turn 30 and people get crazy about the number. Is there a decline in the future? Of course! But how far? Right as they turn 30? I don't think so. I think the consensus was 30 was a sign that they were approaching the point where their skills would decline, and the association became so close that people started thinking of 30 as old and past the prime. But I think if we've got a great player at 30, we can expect a few more great years out of him.

Your argument for Haye is pathetic. He doesn't command doubles? In case you've forgotten, we run a one-gap Tampa 2 defense. Our under tackle is not supposed to shut down the interior like Albert Haynesworth...he's supposed to control his gap and penetrate.

Right, right. Only we're talking about RUSHING THE QB. Yeah, it would help if we had a UT that commanded double teams and opened up others for 1-on-1s. Like Warren Sapp did for literally all 9 seasons. Even though our system doesn't allow it. Pathetic.

I think Haye has done fine in that department, especially for his first year starting in our defense. Of course he didn't get pressure against the Giants...never in my life have I seen a defensive tackle get pressure against 3-step drops and quick throws. Our whole line didn't get pressure because our underneath coverage decided to go for a power nap.

While I agree that our coverage had some to do with that, Gaines got some good pressure. Carter got a little pressure. If Gaines who is known for his wide angles can get a sack and another couples of hurries with his 10 yard route to the QB, Haye should be able to as well having to only go 4 yards upfield.

I haven't bashed Sears once since the start of the season.

Congratulations to Arron Sears for proving me right. His suckage emanated when he whiffed at Brian Young, waving his arms like a matador and allowing him a free run at Garcia.

Proving you right or you being full of crap?

I do make excuses for Clayton and Stovall because I see their talent and potential. What have they done wrong this season, anyway? Clayton has dropped a few tough passes in traffic, that's it. Stovall and Clayton are deadly on deep routes across the middle, but all Gruden does is use them on slants. He also failed to find ways to get Galloway the ball late in the season. Our offense has no creativity and Gruden recycles the same deep passing plays. I'm sick of the dink-and-dunk and how it inhibits our receivers' production and wastes their talents. In my Brees' shotgun offense, Clayton and Stovall would be terrific weapons.

Clayton and Stovall's play and playing time cement what they have done wrong. Ike can be productive, reliable, always see the field. Stovall has yet to earn consistent PT. Clayton had one or two decent games. Not great, good, or even solid. Straight mediocre. Two years with a disappearing act, and this one with "flashes of average". Clayton also misjudged that catch in SF where he stepped out of the back of the endzone. Big mistake.

Not to mention Clayton and Stovall are BIG, SLOW, PHYSICAL, POSSESSION WRs. They should benefit MORE from a dink and dunk typical WCO than going downfield with their below average speed.

Thunder&Lightning
01-20-2008, 11:19 PM
champ baily
derrick johnson
bowe

Rich Jr
01-20-2008, 11:45 PM
Just to say..Jammal Brown is severely overrated. He commits more penalties than anyone on our offense.

Tampa 2 4 life
01-21-2008, 12:09 AM
Saints - Brees

Carolina - Steve Smith

Falcons - Michael Vick!

etk
01-21-2008, 12:44 PM
I disagree that he looks like a completely different player.



RBs, who have the shortest career and take the worst pounding of any position? Convenient choice.



I'm still asking who just drops off at 30? Players might not be at their athletic peak into their 30s, but they aren't judged on their athleticism, but rather their ability to play the game.



I'm pointing out what I think is a misconception, then you come back with things that perpetuate it to begin with? Sportsline rankings? Thats TERRIBLE, yet classic etk. NFL teams also trade away proven, productive players for pennies on the dollar (Moss, Corey Dillon, Marshall Faulk) then give $60 mil to an unproved player.



Rice was 31 when he was as good as ever, why is that not his prime to you? We cut Lynch and he played just as good as ever with the Broncos. Again, you're treating NFL front offices like they are infallible. They aren't. Quarles was THIRTY FIVE. We're not even having the same conversation now.



I'm not saying guys aren't in their prime when they are young, but how far does that go? Players turn 30 and people get crazy about the number. Is there a decline in the future? Of course! But how far? Right as they turn 30? I don't think so. I think the consensus was 30 was a sign that they were approaching the point where their skills would decline, and the association became so close that people started thinking of 30 as old and past the prime. But I think if we've got a great player at 30, we can expect a few more great years out of him.



Right, right. Only we're talking about RUSHING THE QB. Yeah, it would help if we had a UT that commanded double teams and opened up others for 1-on-1s. Like Warren Sapp did for literally all 9 seasons. Even though our system doesn't allow it. Pathetic.



While I agree that our coverage had some to do with that, Gaines got some good pressure. Carter got a little pressure. If Gaines who is known for his wide angles can get a sack and another couples of hurries with his 10 yard route to the QB, Haye should be able to as well having to only go 4 yards upfield.





Proving you right or you being full of crap?



Clayton and Stovall's play and playing time cement what they have done wrong. Ike can be productive, reliable, always see the field. Stovall has yet to earn consistent PT. Clayton had one or two decent games. Not great, good, or even solid. Straight mediocre. Two years with a disappearing act, and this one with "flashes of average". Clayton also misjudged that catch in SF where he stepped out of the back of the endzone. Big mistake.

Not to mention Clayton and Stovall are BIG, SLOW, PHYSICAL, POSSESSION WRs. They should benefit MORE from a dink and dunk typical WCO than going downfield with their below average speed.

That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. Players have a drop off in their athleticism as they age and their bodies wear-and-tear from the game. They have improved in other areas of football but they are no longer in their athletic prime when they cross 30 (about). How many of our older Bucs got injured or hurt this season? Pretty much all of them, except for the iron man Derrick Brooks. All of our rookies stayed completely healthy until week 17, when Sears got hurt, and then Tanard got hurt in the playoffs. I don't think that's a coincidence.

So you thing every team just scraps old players and shells out huge amounts of dough for unproven ones for no reason? It's all just a misconception? I don't think every NFL owner is that stupid with that much money on the line. According to you, every NFL owner is not concerned about what's best for their money and product, all over a little misconception. Older players no longer become worth their high salaries as they hit their twilights. Players who are about to hit their prime are worth more.

Rice hit the end of his prime at 31. He was one of the hardest working players the league has ever witnessed. He tirelessly worked on his speed and explosiveness but eventually his age caught up to him despite those efforts. Derrick Brooks is a fortunate exception. I disagree on Lynch. He never impressed me on the Broncos, and his athleticism decreased in every area. He still made the Pro Bowl because he is a big name and a fan favorite. He was a solid, reliable player, but he wasn't the star he was in his younger days in Tampa. That's what I call a decline for a player who's past his prime.

Warren Sapp is one of the best players of all time at his position. Haye is in his first year as a starter and managed to rush the passer better than any other DT since Sapp left. Way to misconstrue my words as well. Taking up 2-gaps isn't a requirement in our system, but of course we allow it. Hovan does this quite often, but he's our Nose. Haye is expected to control his gap and rush the passer, which I think he did admirably. He was probably our most consistent pass rusher over the course of the season, but you want to replace him when we have other more pressing needs.

We got a solid player in that age range in Luke Petitgout. He got injured right at the start of the season.

Congratulations, I bashed Sears over one play at the start of the season. I've done nothing but praise him since, even when he struggled at the end of the season.

I missed the SF game...strangely enough I was in Florida and didn't get the Bucs there. I have an image of Clayton hustling as our go-to receiver at the end of the season. He will never return to his rookie form, but I think he has the same passion he once had and the skill to be a solid option.

Clayton and Stovall might be big and physical, but neither of them are slow. Stovall is our 2nd fastest receiver and he showed his athleticism covering punts. I think he could be a great deep threat with his size and speed, similar to Plaxico Burress. Clayton is a little less athletic overall, but he showed good burst after the catch. He's not a burner, but he has above-average straight line speed. He's definitely not slow. He was our main reverse guy as well, but none of them were successful as they were poorly scripted, executed, and blocked.

Flyboy
01-21-2008, 02:33 PM
Just to say..Jammal Brown is severely overrated. He commits more penalties than anyone on our offense.

He's not THAT overrated. Considering he's just in his second year of playing LT after being All-Pro last year at his first year at LT.. he'll be fine. Still one of the best young o-linemen in the league. With that said, Jahri Evans is our best offensive linemen. He just mauls opponents.

Rich Jr
01-21-2008, 03:37 PM
He's not THAT overrated. Considering he's just in his second year of playing LT after being All-Pro last year at his first year at LT.. he'll be fine. Still one of the best young o-linemen in the league. With that said, Jahri Evans is our best offensive linemen. He just mauls opponents.I do agree with this.

dbtb135
01-21-2008, 05:18 PM
That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. Players have a drop off in their athleticism as they age and their bodies wear-and-tear from the game. They have improved in other areas of football but they are no longer in their athletic prime when they cross 30 (about).

No, we don't agree. I think guys at 30 are still as sharp as they were at their mid-late 20s. I think when they go to the deeper parts of their 30s, about 32, 33 or 34 is when they have a big dropoff. Depending on how much of a pounding they've taken. Good RBs a little early, good TEs a little late, and so on.

So you thing every team just scraps old players and shells out huge amounts of dough for unproven ones for no reason? It's all just a misconception?

I think it has to do with the RISK of an older player not just when they sign but going forward. Not signing a 30 year old to an $80 million contract isn't saying the guy has past his prime or isn't as good as he was last year, it's saying they don't want to invest that much into a guy for that amount of time. Taking what they've assessed and saying that 30 is past their prime when the league is chock full of guys playing at a high level at that age and older, yeah I am saying thats a misconception.

I don't think every NFL owner is that stupid with that much money on the line. According to you, every NFL owner is not concerned about what's best for their money and product, all over a little misconception. Older players no longer become worth their high salaries as they hit their twilights. Players who are about to hit their prime are worth more.

Now you're just taking my stance and going wherever you want with it. Is it that much to ask to actually argue what I'm saying, and not what I'm not saying?

Rice hit the end of his prime at 31. He was one of the hardest working players the league has ever witnessed. He tirelessly worked on his speed and explosiveness but eventually his age caught up to him despite those efforts. Derrick Brooks is a fortunate exception. I disagree on Lynch. He never impressed me on the Broncos, and his athleticism decreased in every area. He still made the Pro Bowl because he is a big name and a fan favorite. He was a solid, reliable player, but he wasn't the star he was in his younger days in Tampa. That's what I call a decline for a player who's past his prime.

I disagree with Rice's work ethic. It was good, but it wasn't among the best.

Lynch was exactly what he was in Tampa. Great in run support, good blitzing, plainly average in pass coverage. Story of his career. His first two seasons in Denver were right one par with his play in Tampa. Which is why people hated letting him go and keeping Phillips who he vastly outplayed those seasons. Last season and this season, he fell off.

Warren Sapp is one of the best players of all time at his position. Haye is in his first year as a starter and managed to rush the passer better than any other DT since Sapp left.

No argument there, Sapp was great. But we can't find a Tommie Harris, Amobi Okoye, or Rod Coleman?

Booger McFarland and Ellis Wyms aren't that hard to top when it comes to rushing the passer.

Way to misconstrue my words as well. Taking up 2-gaps isn't a requirement in our system, but of course we allow it. Hovan does this quite often, but he's our Nose. Haye is expected to control his gap and rush the passer, which I think he did admirably. He was probably our most consistent pass rusher over the course of the season, but you want to replace him when we have other more pressing needs.

You keep missing this and it's not hard to get at all. No one even mentioned Hovan. This is about Haye taking up two blockers consistently when he's RUSHING THE PASSER. That has nothing to do with the type of system we run, it's entirely predicated on who the other team's coordinator thinks the line should put their extra lineman in pass pro. Where are you getting lost at?

I never said make it top priority to replace him, but if we can get someone who holds up better vs. the run and can command more attention rushing the passer, go for it.

We got a solid player in that age range in Luke Petitgout. He got injured right at the start of the season.

He got injured when John Wade got pushed into the back of his knee. Yeah, thats an AGE-related injury for ya. Plus, Petitgout has been a banged up player for some time. Caddy's injury wasn't caused by anyone else but him, and he's the younger guy that went down in that game.

Congratulations, I bashed Sears over one play at the start of the season. I've done nothing but praise him since, even when he struggled at the end of the season.

I missed the SF game...strangely enough I was in Florida and didn't get the Bucs there. I have an image of Clayton hustling as our go-to receiver at the end of the season. He will never return to his rookie form, but I think he has the same passion he once had and the skill to be a solid option.

I think the player Clayton is now is one that is a dime a dozen around the league.

Clayton and Stovall might be big and physical, but neither of them are slow. Stovall is our 2nd fastest receiver and he showed his athleticism covering punts. I think he could be a great deep threat with his size and speed, similar to Plaxico Burress. Clayton is a little less athletic overall, but he showed good burst after the catch. He's not a burner, but he has above-average straight line speed. He's definitely not slow. He was our main reverse guy as well, but none of them were successful as they were poorly scripted, executed, and blocked.

Our receivers are the slowest group maybe in the entire NFL. Ike is slow. Clayton is slow. Stovall is slow. Warren is a tortoise. Clayton has well below average straight line speed. Our reverses always stunk with Clayton! That was one of the main complaints about the playcalling this season, using a slow WR on a reverse is one of the worst ideas I've seen this season.

etk
01-21-2008, 06:16 PM
Whatever, this is pointless. I disagree with basically every statement you just made, especially the ones concerning our current and former players. You make excuses for the older players and bash the younger ones harshly. I don't really understand your motives. If Maurice Stovall is slow, what does that make 80% of the WRs in the league? Whatever.

The only thing I agree with you on is that Gruden's playcalling is brutal and he needs to realize it's not the 80's anymore.

dbtb135
01-21-2008, 09:58 PM
Whatever, this is pointless. I disagree with basically every statement you just made, especially the ones concerning our current and former players.

Point it out or just don't post, because that is annoying as hell.

You make excuses for the older players and bash the younger ones harshly. I don't really understand your motives.

Who did I make excuses for? Petitgout? He got rolled up on! Lynch? What excuse? I called him the same player. I don't bash any of the young players who play well. I said we could use an upgrade for Haye. I didn't say it was priority 1. Clayton and Stovall haven't done anything in their collective past 5 seasons. Sure, I'd love for Stovall to break out next year and I'm not saying he doesn't have a chance to. But I'm not going to call him a good player until he plays well. Clayton played two or three mediocre games. If anyone is making excuses, it's you for these WRs. Plain and simple.

If Maurice Stovall is slow, what does that make 80% of the WRs in the league? Whatever.

You are continually arguing the great speed of big, physical possession WRs and arguably the slowest group of WRs in the NFL. Our biggest problem on offense, by the entire consensus of our fans, is that we have no speed at WR past Galloway. How in the world are you arguing that these guys have good speed? Make one point on them having good speed and I will never post here again.

etk
01-22-2008, 01:35 PM
Where have you pointed out that Stovall doesn't have good speed? All you say is we have big, slow receivers. Where's your proof? Galloway is one of the fastest in the league. Ike is slow. Clayton improved his speed this year and looked a lot faster. He's not a burner, but he's above-average in that department. Stovall is anything but slow. Every draft report and magazine I've seen has said that he's a deep threat, he has good speed, and he proved it on the field. He was always our first guy down on the punt team and he was one of the best gunners in the league because of it. If he played more on offense he would've shown his speed there too. He and Clayton were both kick returners at one point, and Ike was our punt returner. If these guys were the slowest players in the league...why were they so prominent on special teams, which is basically geared for speed and athleticism. Our only other receiver was Michael Spurlock, who looked slow as hell as our kick returner. We have one lighting-fast receiver, one slow receiver, and 3 with good speed. How do we have the slowest bunch in the league? They all look slow on offensebecause Gruden doesn't use them on anything but slants and curls, and Clayton's reverses were never well executed.

I'm not talking out of my ass here. I saw these guys up close against the Panthers. I saw Clayton running in the pre-game, and he looked like the fastest guy out there. I saw on him running posts and ins and he looked very fluid. If we used him more on those kinds of plays he would be effective.

Shiver
01-22-2008, 02:13 PM
New Orleans - Drew Brees
Carolina - Jordan Gross
Tampa Bay - Earnest Graham

Consider the Falcons offense fixed...

dbtb135
01-22-2008, 08:08 PM
Where have you pointed out that Stovall doesn't have good speed? All you say is we have big, slow receivers. Where's your proof?

Everything he's shown, our UNDOUBTED need of speed at WR past Joey. He's a big, bulky WR who everyone called a possession WR coming into the draft. He didn't run any better than a little below average. Wouldn't that be your first clue? A guy like Colston who is big, but not known as much as a possession WR, ran better than him, gets more separation than him (using his speed, cuts rather than his SIZE-Stovall). Just because they are big guys doesn't mean they are slow, thats not any correlation I made. But the fact that he has never shown what anyone could consider good speed. Outside of ALL that, how is he speedy until proven otherwise? Thats ridiculous.

Galloway is one of the fastest in the league. Ike is slow. Clayton improved his speed this year and looked a lot faster. He's not a burner, but he's above-average in that department.

Joey is incredibly fast, but that takes nothing away from the other WRs. You can have Brandon Jacobs, Darren Sproles, and Garrett Wolfe on the same team and it's not that they look small in comparison, but that they ARE small. Same with Joey and the other WRs when it comes to speed. I'm not saying our WRs all have to be Joey Galloway fast, but they aren't anywhere close. They have adequate speed at best. Clayton, like Stovall, never gets separation. He hasn't looked anywhere near fast since he could actually play in 04.

Stovall is anything but slow. Every draft report and magazine I've seen has said that he's a deep threat, he has good speed, and he proved it on the field. He was always our first guy down on the punt team and he was one of the best gunners in the league because of it.

He WAS a deep threat at ND. Their line gave him plenty of time to get down the field and he used his SIZE to make the catch. Plenty of other WRs have been the same in college only to have their speed and separation ability questioned at the pro level. I'm sure Clayton would make a good gunner too, but his size and physicality go a long way there. Punts take longer to develop than passing plays.

If he played more on offense he would've shown his speed there too. He and Clayton were both kick returners at one point, and Ike was our punt returner. If these guys were the slowest players in the league...why were they so prominent on special teams, which is basically geared for speed and athleticism.

They were poor returners is the answer. Mark Jones was great for us. Pittman was much better than Clayton (who wasn't terrible), and miles better Stovall. And Pittman, while having solid speed, is no burner. Yet he looked like one in comparison. Ike was there for his sure hands, and our team has been CONSTANTLY criticized having such a slow guy back there. Although, P-Buc has great speed and always fair caught the ball.

The thing I find absolutely mind-boggling is that you use these things as a REASON WHY they have good speed. The reverses with Clayton were some of the most highly criticized and downright stupid playcalls of Gruden's time here. They weren't particularly successful at all. Ike returning punts was highly criticized, since we didn't have anyone capable past recycled Torrie Cox and Mark Jones (who finally figured it out before going down). He wasn't successful. Yet you use these instances to prop up their speed, when our entire fanbase is complaining about their lack or speed and the fact that these plays haven't been successful by and large. They must have speed if they are calling reverses and returning with them. Assumptions get you nowhere.

Our only other receiver was Michael Spurlock, who looked slow as hell as our kick returner. We have one lighting-fast receiver, one slow receiver, and 3 with good speed. How do we have the slowest bunch in the league? They all look slow on offensebecause Gruden doesn't use them on anything but slants and curls, and Clayton's reverses were never well executed.

Yeah, the problem with Clayton's reverses are that they aren't well executed. Other teams use Devery Henderson or Randy Moss or Antwan Randle El or Steve Smith. Some speedster on reverses. We use a WR who only one man on the face of the earth could pass as fast. That probably has something to do with it.

I've seen Clayton try a couple of double moves, hitch-and-go, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

I'm not talking out of my ass here. I saw these guys up close against the Panthers. I saw Clayton running in the pre-game, and he looked like the fastest guy out there. I saw on him running posts and ins and he looked very fluid. If we used him more on those kinds of plays he would be effective.

Why don't we just post a poll, and get some objective opinions on this?

etk
01-22-2008, 09:21 PM
Once again, I haven't seen any evidence posted by you to prove how Clayton and Stovall are slow. Instead, all you do is point out flaws in my argument instead of making your own. When I do post something you agree on, like how Spurlock has good speed, you just ignore it in your response.

I could do the same things you do...like when you say we have the slowest receivers in the league, I could say "Jacksonville Jaguars". I choose to focus on the actual argument in itself, which is you saying Clayton and Stovall are slow when they really aren't. Once again, to imitate you, Clayton struggles to get separation because he doesn't have good quickness in and out of cuts. Our offense involves short-drops where speed is basically stripped of you unless you can make plays after the catch. Galloway is very effective because he is quick and has the suddenness that the bigger guys lack. What Clayton does have is good straight-line downfield speed. I don't see how that opinion is subjective. I'm not a Clayton fanboy, I just repeat what I see.

I think you're confused, to be honest. You're mixing up different kinds of athleticism. You say Pittman has good speed, when I disagree. Pittman is elusive and quick, so he looks fast, but I'd bet good money that Stovall and Clayton would beat him in a race. Of course 2 6'4 receivers aren't as shifty so they don't look fast, which I understand. Stovall can run, as we saw at ND, the Senior Bowl and on punt coverage. I've never seen him look slow on a fade or go.

Let me read you this quote from tSN, which devotes more people to scouting the draft and the NFL than probably anyone. "Stovall is built like a tight end, but he's fast...he plays a little like Randy Moss and Terrell Owens, minus the attitude." Is that not an objective opinion for you? Obviously there's a lot more to the story, but a player as talented as Stovall should be getting more touched in our offense.

I also found it funny how you credited ND's line for Stovall getting deep in college. ND's line was constantly criticized from what I remember, and should you fault Stovall for using his size to make catches? Marques Colston is another guy with similar speed (good, not great speed) to Stovall who does the same. I think Stovall has the talent to be used as a Colston, but I guess Gruden has different thoughts.

dbtb135
01-22-2008, 10:17 PM
Once again, I haven't seen any evidence posted by you to prove how Clayton and Stovall are slow. Instead, all you do is point out flaws in my argument instead of making your own. When I do post something you agree on, like how Spurlock has good speed, you just ignore it in your response.

Sure, play speed, separation, 40 time, no evidence whatsoever. And your evidence? "I saw him in Carolina, and I think he's fast." How am I supposed to refute that?

Instead, all you do is point out flaws in my argument instead of making your own.

If I disagree with something, why wouldn't I point it out? Is that not allowed? I've made PLENTY of my own arguments, go back through the page my god! It's like talking to a wall here.

When I do post something you agree on, like how Spurlock has good speed, you just ignore it in your response.

I'm trying to cover everything I can here, sorry it doesn't measure up to standards. Spurlock, I don't really have any opinion on him. He won't make our next cut and his return was mostly blocking.

I could do the same things you do...like when you say we have the slowest receivers in the league, I could say "Jacksonville Jaguars".

Hey, they're fast because they aren't the slowest! That is the point of this whole thing, remember?

I choose to focus on the actual argument in itself, which is you saying Clayton and Stovall are slow when they really aren't.

I've given you all I can. The consensus, so not MY bias in any way, shape or form. Their below average 40 time(no bias). Their SEPARATION, which you haven't answered but it clear they don't get (again, no bias). And all you keep saying is "yeah, they do have good speed(room for bias). See, we used Clayton on a couple of reverses (assumption). He MUST be fast! I saw him in warm-ups and he looked fast to me(room for bias)."

Once again, to imitate you, Clayton struggles to get separation because he doesn't have good quickness in and out of cuts. Our offense involves short-drops where speed is basically stripped of you unless you can make plays after the catch.

In mid-season when our line came together, and a lot when Luke McCown was in, players were given more time for their routes to develop than before. Even then, when Clayton actually got on the field, he wasn't getting anything. His timed speed was poor coming into the league, but played faster. I'm not going to take away from his rookie year because he PLAYED FASTER, but since then obviously his speed, hands, production, separation, everything has gone well downhill. Leaving only his blocking.

I also found it funny how you credited ND's line for Stovall getting deep in college. ND's line was constantly criticized from what I remember, and should you fault Stovall for using his size to make catches? Marques Colston is another guy with similar speed (good, not great speed) to Stovall who does the same. I think Stovall has the talent to be used as a Colston, but I guess Gruden has different thoughts.

ND's line was pretty good until bowl games. Then they dropped up big time this year. In 05 though, they gave Quinn plenty of time except against OSU. Even played SC well, though they were no defensive powerhouse then.

I never faulted Stovall for using his size, I don't know how you are reading some of this and responding in the manner you are. It's mind-boggling really.

Colston was and still is heavier, faster, and smoother than Stovall. I like Stovall, but he can be more of a big, lumbering guy at times. I'm not saying he is, but he is not on par with the better big, smooth, athletic WRs of the league. But I'm sure you'll twist that into a slight on the guy.

etk
01-23-2008, 09:08 AM
I have one question. If you're so negative about every player on our team, why are you a fan? All I've ever seen you do here is pick arguments with me where you give negative commentary to players.

This argument is pointless. I've given non-biased examples to how Stovall and Clayton aren't slow, among other things, and you just ignore those points and reply to the ones that suit your picking needs. If I keep replying, you will continue with this pick-and-choose style.

dbtb135
01-23-2008, 05:45 PM
I have one question. If you're so negative about every player on our team, why are you a fan? All I've ever seen you do here is pick arguments with me where you give negative commentary to players.

How am I negative about every player on our team? I've supported guys like Trublood, Sears, and I'm not sure but I think Adams too. I supported Jeff back before he won the QB job, when I believe it was you knocking him. I support tons of our players. I support Haye, even though I don't think he's an every down lineman. He's way better at the Ellis Wyms role than Ellis Wyms ever was. My problem is our WRs are by and large slow and lackluster past Joey Galloway. Again, when the consensus within AND outside the fanbase is that our biggest need may be WR and that we definitely need speed at WR, then I don't think I'm out of line at all to say the same thing. Why do you?

I've agreed with you sometimes, it's just that more often than not I don't. I don't target anybody, I just come on here and post my thoughts. If there's something I agree/disagree with, I'll point that out too.

This argument is pointless. I've given non-biased examples to how Stovall and Clayton aren't slow, among other things, and you just ignore those points and reply to the ones that suit your picking needs. If I keep replying, you will continue with this pick-and-choose style.

I broke down that plain and simple. The only thing that you have brought up that was unbiased were the draft mags, which I'm sure some questioned his speed. Didn't get a chance to cover that.

etk
01-23-2008, 10:56 PM
I'm sorry for accusing you of hating our players. You've bashed Haye, Stovall & Clayton pretty hard in this thread so that's where I took it.

Not trying to assume anything from your posts, but it seems like you're simply taking out frustration on 2 culpable targets when really you're missing the point. Our receivers are poor and they do lack quickness and burst out of cuts (beyond Galloway). I think you're making a large overstatement by saying they're slow, because I don't think Stovall, Clayton, Jones, Spurlock, etc. are slow. I think all 4 of them have ample speed and I don't know why you find that so obnoxious. Our WRs by and large lack overall athleticism, but I like what they have to offer on deep speed (fades, posts, etc.).

We definitely do need speed at WR, but not the way you imply it. We need an Avery/Caldwell type that breaks smoothly and sharply in-and-out of cuts. Any Bucs fan would agree on that.

It probably was me knocking Jeff. It took me a little while to realize Simms just didn't cut it in Gruden's offense, so I took it out on Jeff because I wanted an answer for our future QB. I've completely reversed my thought process on that issue since then.

If Haye's not an every-down lineman, what's your solution? Do we play have him share minutes with Hovan at UT and start Sims? Do we draft or sign someone? I think all we need is Greg Peterson to step up and spell Haye more often to give him more resting time. Haye is a motor guy and that motor fell off towards the end of the season as he wore down, especially at the end of drives. I don't think we need any drastic change there.

dbtb135
01-23-2008, 11:34 PM
I'm sorry for accusing you of hating our players. You've bashed Haye, Stovall & Clayton pretty hard in this thread so that's where I took it.

Not trying to assume anything from your posts, but it seems like you're simply taking out frustration on 2 culpable targets when really you're missing the point. Our receivers are poor and they do lack quickness and burst out of cuts (beyond Galloway). I think you're making a large overstatement by saying they're slow, because I don't think Stovall, Clayton, Jones, Spurlock, etc. are slow. I think all 4 of them have ample speed and I don't know why you find that so obnoxious. Our WRs by and large lack overall athleticism, but I like what they have to offer on deep speed (fades, posts, etc.).

We definitely do need speed at WR, but not the way you imply it. We need an Avery/Caldwell type that breaks smoothly and sharply in-and-out of cuts. Any Bucs fan would agree on that.

It probably was me knocking Jeff. It took me a little while to realize Simms just didn't cut it in Gruden's offense, so I took it out on Jeff because I wanted an answer for our future QB. I've completely reversed my thought process on that issue since then.

If Haye's not an every-down lineman, what's your solution? Do we play have him share minutes with Hovan at UT and start Sims? Do we draft or sign someone? I think all we need is Greg Peterson to step up and spell Haye more often to give him more resting time. Haye is a motor guy and that motor fell off towards the end of the season as he wore down, especially at the end of drives. I don't think we need any drastic change there.

No problem man.

Jones has good speed, although I don't know how well he'll come back from the same injury Caddy got. You could tell the difference between him on returns and everyone else we've had on returns. I do think Clayton is pretty slow to be honest. He wasn't his rookie year, but since then he isn't getting much separation on anyone. Stovall I think has slightly below average timed speed and plays at about the same level. I really don't think he needs great speed though to play the same position Ike Hilliard and Keyshawn have both excelled at. But just him with the group of Clayton, Ike, Warren just don't get it done from a speed standpoint.

Hovan is not a UT since his pass rushing days are well behind him. I think we should look to draft someone and try to develop Peterson at LDE. Like Haye, not a starter, but I think he would be a good run defending DE and has a little flash of pass rushing like Spires used to. I'm probably in the minority on Peterson to end though. I don't think he's terrible or even bad to have there, it's just like LT to me though; so important that if you can get an upgrade you should go after it. Luke Petitgout looked good last year when he played and Penn did a little too, but I wouldn't hesitate to pick someone with great talent because of any of them. Haye is only in his 2nd season though, so the staff may want to hold off on anything that might phase him out as we all saw how quickly Wyms went from being "the guy" at UT after the Booger trade to completely out the door.

Good stuff.

etk
01-24-2008, 11:52 AM
I think Peterson could take over Carter's role at LDE for the short term, with Gaines taking over on passing downs. I'd rather see us draft an every-down LDE or another pass rusher though. There's Campbell and Merling in the 1st, L. Jackson in the 2nd, but the most realistic is Jeremy Thompson. He explodes well off the snap and sets up blockers well with his moves. He uses his hands to separate on an edge rush like White, but he also has counter moves to the inside. He would be a great pick-up.

I think elite UTs are very rare, and we have a good one in Haye. Sapp, Harris and Kevin Williams don't grow on trees. All we can do is add competition to the position unless Ellis falls or someone great becomes available in FA.

Wyms was just a notch below Haye, and injuries killed off any chance he had of being "the guy". If we go DT, I think Trevor Laws would be our best bet. He's good enough with leverage to play Hovan's role, but he separates well enough from blocks (great handwork and technique) to provide depth at UT, and a better option versus the run.

In the other thread, I said Chris Williams would be a good upgrade. If Penn continued to improve, I wouldn't hesitate to have him replace Trueblood and his wide base either.

dbtb135
01-24-2008, 07:24 PM
I think Peterson could take over Carter's role at LDE for the short term, with Gaines taking over on passing downs. I'd rather see us draft an every-down LDE or another pass rusher though. There's Campbell and Merling in the 1st, L. Jackson in the 2nd, but the most realistic is Jeremy Thompson. He explodes well off the snap and sets up blockers well with his moves. He uses his hands to separate on an edge rush like White, but he also has counter moves to the inside. He would be a great pick-up.

I think elite UTs are very rare, and we have a good one in Haye. Sapp, Harris and Kevin Williams don't grow on trees. All we can do is add competition to the position unless Ellis falls or someone great becomes available in FA.

Wyms was just a notch below Haye, and injuries killed off any chance he had of being "the guy". If we go DT, I think Trevor Laws would be our best bet. He's good enough with leverage to play Hovan's role, but he separates well enough from blocks (great handwork and technique) to provide depth at UT, and a better option versus the run.

In the other thread, I said Chris Williams would be a good upgrade. If Penn continued to improve, I wouldn't hesitate to have him replace Trueblood and his wide base either.

With Greg White likely moving over to LDE as Adams becomes more comfortable, I think we just need a solid player and not a 1st rounder at the position. Peterson would work great as he balances White very well. I think we need more of a rush up front, mainly at NT if could be had.

I want to keep Haye and get him a good number of snaps, but if we can add more to the position, I'd be in favor of it.

Wyms had some decent numbers last year with 5 sacks in limited time. Kinda Haye-like production over the course of a season. But he never brought it together. Laws would be a great pickup IMO.

I like Williams too, very balanced. I don't think he's an elite level LT, more of a David Deihl type, but I think he'd be a Pro Bowl level RT, like Willie Anderson.

etk
01-24-2008, 10:30 PM
Have these White-LDE rumors been substantiated, or is it just what's assumed on the Bucs boards? I don't love that move and I'd rather have him and Adams split time on the right, with Gaines playing the left side on 3rd downs.

If White is indeed our full-time starter at LDE...NT immediately becomes our biggest need on the defensive front. I honestly never watched ND this year (had enough of them) except for their OT against Navy, so I don't really know any of their prospects prior to know. Laws looks like something special. He's as close to unblockable as you can get from a DT, and he put up ridiculous tackle numbers on that defense.

Williams probably doesn't have the potential of a Ryan Clady or Jeff Otah, but he is solid against run and pass. He looks like a sound pass blocker from a footwork and technique standpoint, but he won't be shutting down the elite pass rushers that have perfected their craft and pass rush moves. I think he does project to LT, but he will need help against guys like Mario Williams and Dwight Freeney, especially early on. Once again, what separates him from a RT prospect like Gosder Cherilus is his footwork and natural bend.

Caddy
01-25-2008, 12:50 AM
Technically the Buc's had White listed at LE for most of the 07 season on the depth chart so take that for what you will.

ChezPower4
02-19-2008, 08:35 PM
Panthers- Julis Peppers: A very rare physical specimin, add to that his unbelievable athletisim. He is one of the best DE's in the NFL. Fits great into the Tampa 2.

Falcons deangelo hall: He may not be a perfect fit for Monte's tampa 2 but he is an elite cover corner and Kiffin would find a way to make it work.

Saints Marques Colston: A young very productive WR that has many good years ahaed of him. Would Give the Buc's a much needed boost a WR and would be a great fit in the west coast offence.

scar988
04-28-2008, 11:58 PM
in a re-do after the draft:

Carolina - OT Jordan Gross (to play RG)
Tampa Bay - CB Ronde Barber
New Orleans - OT Jamaal Brown (to play RT)

D-Rod
04-30-2008, 06:00 AM
Post-draft:

Carolina: RT Jordan Gross
Bucs: RG Davin Joseph
Saints: DT Sed Ellis

BamaFalcon59
04-30-2008, 08:18 PM
These two Bucs fans sound like a less angry version of me and another Falcons fan poster.

Post draft-

New Orleans- Sedrick Ellis, DT
Tampa Bay- Devin Joseph, OG
Carolina- Ryan Kalil, C

Going young and in the trenches.

Caddy
04-30-2008, 09:41 PM
Here is my post draft version.

Carolina - Steve Smith: Despite drafting Dexter Jackson, adding a receiver of Steve Smith's quality would be wonderful.

Atlanta - John Abraham: Nobody excites me terribly about the Falcons but Abraham and Adams would be a force to be reckoned with on 3rd down.

New Orleans - Jamaal Brown: Petitgout and Penn are quality players, but Brown is a tier above them.

dbro
05-18-2008, 02:11 PM
Panthers- Julius Peppers
Bucs- Ronde Barber
Falcons- Michael Turner

SaintsMan
05-19-2008, 04:41 PM
For the Saints...

Steve Smith, WR, Carolina Panthers
Tanard Jackson, FS, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Michael Turner, RB, Atlanta Falcons

Splat
06-02-2008, 08:55 PM
Since I'm a Chiefs fan I will go AFC West.

SD - OG Kris Dielman

Oak - CB Nnamdi Asomugha

Denver - WR Brandon Marshall

xooberon
06-04-2008, 05:43 PM
Falcons: John Abraham
Saints: Jahri Evans
Bucs: ....not sure. maybe Jovan Haye

dj825
01-11-2009, 01:33 AM
Saints: Drew Brees
Falcons: Roddy White
Buccaneers: Gaines Adams

Draft King
01-11-2009, 09:07 AM
Panthers: Jon Beason
Bucs: Gaines Adams
Saints: Jammal Brown (at RT)

Chucky
01-11-2009, 10:20 AM
Falcons: Matt Ryan
Panthers: Julius Peppers
Saints: Marques Colston

That was easy.

etk
01-11-2009, 11:21 AM
Ryan....eww no way.

Brees
Peppers
White

Championship.

d34ng3l021
01-11-2009, 11:47 AM
Ryan's the future!

Bucs: FS Tanard Jackson
Saints: DT Sedrick Ellis
Panthers: OT Jordan Gross

xooberon
01-11-2009, 12:35 PM
Falcons: John Abraham
Saints: Drew Brees
Bucs: Aqib Talib
updated for this season.

kiranadwaney
01-07-2010, 04:57 AM
Bucs: Aqib Talib
Panthers: Julius Peppers
Saints: Marques Colston

BamaFalcon59
01-07-2010, 12:08 PM
Hmm. To win a game right now...

Bucs: Aquib Talib
Panthers: Julius Peppers
Saints: Lance Moore

Championship!

ATLDirtyBirds
01-07-2010, 01:31 PM
Hmm. To win a game right now...

Bucs: Aquib Talib
Panthers: Julius Peppers
Saints: Lance Moore

Championship!


Same for me, except I'd rather have Evans Or Nicks from NO.

brasho
01-24-2010, 02:59 PM
Panthers: DeAngelo Williams
Saints: Will Smith
Falcons: Roddy White

BuffaloBillsFan
02-06-2010, 05:26 PM
If you don't mind a Bills fan playing along, this is who I would take:

Panthers: Jon Beason
Saints: Drew Brees
Falcons: Michael Turner
Bucs: Aqib Talib

zachsaints52
02-09-2010, 12:41 AM
Panthers- Julius Peppers
Atlanta- Sam Baker
Tampa Bay- Sad to say, but Jeff Faine

Bosanac01
07-11-2011, 01:11 AM
Panthers: Cam Newton
Saints: Drew Brees
Bucs: Josh Freeman

etk
07-12-2011, 09:44 AM
Newton for WR, Freeman for TE, Brees for RB, maybe even QB coach?

Falcons: Curtis Lofton.
Panthers: Jordan Gross.
Saints: Jahri Evans.

Upgrade the OL and get a thumper MLB. Hell yeah. I'd like a safety as well but slim pickins in this division.

Revis Island
07-13-2011, 04:29 PM
Saints: Jahri Evans
Panthers: Jon Beason (OLB)
Bucs: Gerald McCoy

Smash28Dash34
07-13-2011, 04:55 PM
Saints: Jahri Evans
Bucs: Mike Williams
Falcons: Julio Jones

Revis Island
07-13-2011, 10:30 PM
Saints: Jahri Evans
Bucs: Mike Williams
Falcons: Julio Jones

I'm assuming taking Julio over Roddy is building for the future.

bullg8rdaddy
08-03-2011, 03:02 AM
Panthers: LB Beason
Saints: LG Nicks
Falcons: RT Clabo

the_dark_knight
08-15-2011, 01:52 PM
Bucs:
Kellen Winslow

Panthers:
Charles Johnson

Saints:
Carl Nicks

etk
08-15-2011, 09:18 PM
Newton for WR, Freeman for TE, Brees for RB, maybe even QB coach?

Falcons: Curtis Lofton.
Panthers: Jordan Gross.
Saints: Jahri Evans.

Upgrade the OL and get a thumper MLB. Hell yeah. I'd like a safety as well but slim pickins in this division.

Atlanta: John Abraham
Carolina: Greg Olsen
New Orleans: Mark Ingram

Big changes from last time. I'm very comfortable with our OL right now and I wouldn't want to change up chemistry. Kalil would be a nice upgrade over Faine but Faine is a leader and makes the line calls. Lofton is obviously an upgrade over Foster but Foster should be good enough. They're similar players.

Instead I chose Abraham because we could use another quality edge rusher. He's a major upgrade over Clayborn in the short-term, but Clayborn is still a huge upgrade over White from last year (yeesh). Olsen gives us a dangerous weapon for Freeman. I'm not comfortable with our TE depth and Winslow's knee is always a concern. Ingram instantly becomes our best RB imo but more importantly he's an excellent 3rd down back and short-yardage back. Those are 2 weaknesses with the current group.

Burger
01-10-2012, 03:10 AM
Since I am a Packer fan, I will pick one player from each team.

Falcons: John Abraham, We need a pass rush, and I love Abraham. His use of power would be able to help Green Bay generate a passrush opposite of Clay, and he would function like a Justin Smith in the 2008 49ers D, playing OLB, and DE.

Panthers: Matt Kalil, He would be a great guard on our team. He is a quick agile lineman who is extremely smart. He's a pro bowl caliber player on a team that makes him underrated, much like Jordan Gross. He would be an upgrade to our TJ Lang.

Saints: Marques Colston, Colston would compliment the deep ball ability of Jordy and Greg. His possession abilities would help Aaron find an open reciever when the other 4 are covered.

Buccaneers: Adrian Clayborn, I love how this man plays defensive line. He is able to run defend and penetrate the line to generate pressure. He has a lot of upside if he played next to BJ Raji.

Smash28Dash34
01-10-2012, 06:54 PM
Falcons: Julio Jones- Cam needs a young WR to grow up with and even as a Panther fan I have no trouble admitting this kid is going to be a nightmare for the rest of the division for years to come. Saints: Jahri Evans- Best G in the NFL Imo. We need to upgrade our o-line bad and this guy solves that problem easily. Bucaneers- Aqib Talib- Despite his off the field baggage his immense talent is too hard to ignore. We need a stud opposite Gamble and this guy would shore up our secondary.

Bulldogs
01-10-2012, 10:35 PM
Panthers: Matt Kalil

Saints: Jahri Evans/Carl Nicks (interchangeable)

Panthers: Chris Gamble

Would fix our O-Line issues, and give us a legitimate corner to pair with Brent Grimes

kBuc5
01-21-2012, 10:03 AM
Saints - D. Sproles

Panthers - Greg Olsen

Falcons - Grimes

the_dark_knight
01-21-2012, 01:28 PM
Saints - D. Sproles

Panthers - Greg Olsen

Falcons - Grimes

Gag me.

Best player on the Stains for the Bucs is Sproles? Lulz Drew Brees says hi2u Jimmy Graham says hi2u, Every WR on the Saints says hi2u, Will Smith *waves* I mean c'mon...

Most impactful player from the Panters - Greg Olsen (for one of the worst pass rushes in the league?)

Falcons - Grimes, meh okay, but Abe, Julio, Roddy, all come to mind as massive upgrades along with Lofton.

the_dark_knight
01-21-2012, 01:31 PM
Panthers: Matt Kalil

Saints: Jahri Evans/Carl Nicks (interchangeable)

Panthers: Chris Gamble

Would fix our O-Line issues, and give us a legitimate corner to pair with Brent Grimes

You forgot that you picked 2 panthers and left off the Bucs.

For me...

Saints: Jimmy Graham would prolly get the edge over the 2 guards but just barely.

Panthers: I love your Matt Kalil pickup, hard to argue that one, but at the same time, if I have a chance to get Charles Johnson I'm taking it.

Bucs: Gimme, the water boy, he does a good job down there. Jk jk. Despite his off field issues I'd still have to put Talib at the top of my Buc list, I like some of the young talent down there, but I couldn't put any of them over Talib yet.

kBuc5
01-22-2012, 11:02 AM
Gag me.

Best player on the Stains for the Bucs is Sproles? Lulz Drew Brees says hi2u Jimmy Graham says hi2u, Every WR on the Saints says hi2u, Will Smith *waves* I mean c'mon...

Most impactful player from the Panters - Greg Olsen (for one of the worst pass rushes in the league?)

Falcons - Grimes, meh okay, but Abe, Julio, Roddy, all come to mind as massive upgrades along with Lofton.

You could name a lot of players that would be upgrades. We had the 30th ranked rushing offense, you could argue every player you listed but give me Sproles because I don't like what the Panthers and Falcons have there. If our Dline can stay healthy they will be fine, Winslow is on his last legs and the attitude started to come outlast year, I'll take Olson. Just go watch EJ Biggers highlight reel from last year, gimme Grimes.... And FWIW Talib is overrated, how long can you use the word potential for someone?

Bulldogs
01-22-2012, 07:40 PM
You forgot that you picked 2 panthers and left off the Bucs.

For me...

Saints: Jimmy Graham would prolly get the edge over the 2 guards but just barely.

Panthers: I love your Matt Kalil pickup, hard to argue that one, but at the same time, if I have a chance to get Charles Johnson I'm taking it.

Bucs: Gimme, the water boy, he does a good job down there. Jk jk. Despite his off field issues I'd still have to put Talib at the top of my Buc list, I like some of the young talent down there, but I couldn't put any of them over Talib yet.

You're right. Change Nicks/Evans to Jimmy Graham, and throw in Davin Joseph from the Bucs. That way our O-Line is still set, and we have a replacement for Tony G.

the_dark_knight
01-23-2012, 11:08 AM
You're right. Change Nicks/Evans to Jimmy Graham, and throw in Davin Joseph from the Bucs. That way our O-Line is still set, and we have a replacement for Tony G.

I like this, I like it a lot actually. I'm still a fan of Talib, but I forget about Joseph because he's just in such a piss poor offensive line.

As far as the prior comment to Talib being overrated, I don't think he is at all, I think he's very fairly rated. No one is saying he's a top flight corner in the NFL, he's got the skill set to improve further, if he can eliminate off field distractions, which he's proven he has a hard time with. But he's a big fast physical guy who plays pretty well and I would consider him a nice upgrade to the Falcons secondary.

scar988
01-25-2012, 10:19 PM
my choices:
New Orleans - OG Carl Nicks
Tampa Bay - DE Adrian Clayborn
Carolina - LT Jordan Gross

Offense with the line of:
Gross - Blalock - McClure - Nicks - Clabo
would be scary. would much rather have a top 3 OG to go with the top 3 RT and a top 10 LT to go with a top 15 LG than Graham from NO and Johnson from CAR. That being said had Tampa had better OL I would have gone with a LT from them, but I don't like Penn. and Clayborn is a good pass rusher.

kBuc5
01-28-2012, 05:31 PM
I like this, I like it a lot actually. I'm still a fan of Talib, but I forget about Joseph because he's just in such a piss poor offensive line.

As far as the prior comment to Talib being overrated, I don't think he is at all, I think he's very fairly rated. No one is saying he's a top flight corner in the NFL, he's got the skill set to improve further, if he can eliminate off field distractions, which he's proven he has a hard time with. But he's a big fast physical guy who plays pretty well and I would consider him a nice upgrade to the Falcons secondary.

Talib was ranked the 7th worst starting CB in the league (Defensive CB FF rankings). He's overrated and a knuckle head and is probably doing prison time this time next year.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/