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Kid_Ego
01-26-2008, 05:20 PM
I was reading the all nfc Central team and wondered who would make the all bust team. being a viking fan I can attest the following guys as complete busts.
QB Tavaris Jackson 2nd rounder?
HB Ciatrick Fason this guy hasnt even carried the ball 50 times in his entire career
Wr Troy williamson The guy couldnt catch a cup of water if he fell out of a boat.
OL Ryan Cook again 2nd rounder?
DL Kenichi Udueze the guy is good on run defense but has never lived up to his billing. Erasumus James the only guy to play less then robert smith did his first 4 years @ the vikings
Pretty much any player taken in the 2006 draft classifys as a possible bust. Greenway and griffin are the only two players that keep it ok and these two guys both have their own issues

neko4
01-26-2008, 05:21 PM
For Green Bay:
Ahmad Carroll, CB
Jamal Reynolds, DE
Robert Ferguson, WR

Kid_Ego
01-26-2008, 05:30 PM
QBs Jackson Grossman any qb taken by the lions in the past 20 years
RBs any runningback taken by the bears in the last 10-15 years Kevin Jones Ciatrick fason branden jackson
WR Williamson Mike Williams
OL any lion in the past 5 years
DL any viking taken in the past 5-6 years
linebacker Boss Bailey
Cornerback Again the lions own the honor of drafting the worst corners ever and Ahmad Carol
Safety We have some of the least relivant safetys in all of the NFL with the exception of the bears.
It does seem to be kinda of a trademark in this division to have pennerial bad drafting at certain positions no matter who is runnning the show.
Detriot QBS OL RBS CBS
Vikings DL CB LB S
Bears RB WR QB
Packers OL RBS

DHVF
02-07-2008, 10:38 AM
What kind of idiot would label Tarvaris Jackson as a bust at this time? Especially considering he was a project QB taken with the last pick of the second round in 06 and has shown many signs of progress in his development?...Not to mention he has only started 14 games. God I'm surprised you didn't put Aaron Rodgers down there as that would have more logic within it than Jackson.

JPLUFF
02-07-2008, 11:08 AM
how is Charles Rogers not on this team?

ESimsfan87
02-07-2008, 12:12 PM
BTW Kevin Jones has not been a bust. When healthy, he is one of the more productive backs...he's played on an offense where in certain games we have ran the ball a total of 3 times... and he is entering a campaign where he could be the starter for 5 years.

VoteLynnSwan
02-07-2008, 12:34 PM
What kind of idiot would label Tarvaris Jackson as a bust at this time? Especially considering he was a project QB taken with the last pick of the second round in 06 and has shown many signs of progress in his development?...Not to mention he has only started 14 games. God I'm surprised you didn't put Aaron Rodgers down there as that would have more logic within it than Jackson.

come on man, just give it up. Jackson is a bust until he proves he can be an effective QB in this league. He has NOT done that to date. He had a few good games, but then regressed at the end of the season. Aaron Rodgers can't yet be considered a bust (although it was obviously a wasted pick thus far) because he has NEVER started a game... Jackson has at least had the opportunity to show that he blows.

bearsfan_51
02-07-2008, 12:38 PM
For Green Bay:
Ahmad Carroll, CB
Jamal Reynolds, DE
Robert Ferguson, WR

Umm...Tony Mandarich? Arguably the biggest bust ever?

rchrd
02-07-2008, 01:02 PM
come on man, just give it up. Jackson is a bust until he proves he can be an effective QB in this league. He has NOT done that to date. He had a few good games, but then regressed at the end of the season. Aaron Rodgers can't yet be considered a bust (although it was obviously a wasted pick thus far) because he has NEVER started a game... Jackson has at least had the opportunity to show that he blows.

I may have it very wrong but the reasoning here to me reads... showed flashes, but sucks because...because he sucks. I assume because he didnt carry us to the playoffs.

Dont get me wrong i'm completely open to the prospect of him being out of the league in a couple of years but my issue is more with you trying to sound like the other guy is mildly delusional for not calling someone a bust until you say otherwise. Maybe it's more due to my hesitation in calling project players at the most difficult position in football a bust after their 1st year starting, I dunno...I guess there probably is a rationale in protecting one player drafted in the 1st round because they haven't played and then killing a project player we reached on because they have had to play...

Gay Ork Wang
02-07-2008, 01:28 PM
guys that are still playing?

GB12
02-07-2008, 03:14 PM
Umm...Tony Mandarich? Arguably the biggest bust ever?
He's not still playing...

Niether are the first two players on his list.

bearsfan_51
02-07-2008, 05:44 PM
Oh...well in that case your options are pretty limited. As long as someone is still playing for the team that drafted them you really can't call them a bust yet.

Crazy_Chris
02-07-2008, 05:59 PM
come on man, just give it up. Jackson is a bust until he proves he can be an effective QB in this league. He has NOT done that to date. He had a few good games, but then regressed at the end of the season. Aaron Rodgers can't yet be considered a bust (although it was obviously a wasted pick thus far) because he has NEVER started a game... Jackson has at least had the opportunity to show that he blows.

So by that same logic your using, do you think that Vince young, Matt Leinart are busts too? That is just absolutly ridiculous logic to use pertaining to a second year player especially at such a difficult position as QB.

mqtirishfan
02-07-2008, 06:05 PM
Kevin Williams says hi in regard to the Queens not being able to draft D-linemen.

Crazy_Chris
02-07-2008, 06:09 PM
I was reading the all nfc Central team and wondered who would make the all bust team. being a viking fan I can attest the following guys as complete busts.
QB Tavaris Jackson 2nd rounder?
HB Ciatrick Fason this guy hasnt even carried the ball 50 times in his entire career
Wr Troy williamson The guy couldnt catch a cup of water if he fell out of a boat.
OL Ryan Cook again 2nd rounder?
DL Kenichi Udueze the guy is good on run defense but has never lived up to his billing. Erasumus James the only guy to play less then robert smith did his first 4 years @ the vikings
Pretty much any player taken in the 2006 draft classifys as a possible bust. Greenway and griffin are the only two players that keep it ok and these two guys both have their own issues

That is just a completely horrible list. Kenechi Udeze is not a bust, he isn't amazing but he is a solid LDE. The only players on that list that are a busts as of right now, are Troy Williamson and Erasmus James(Due to health issues).

Edit:Ciatrick Fason? I wouldn't calssify him as a bust because i don't know many people that have high expecations for a 4th round pick. And just to let you know he actually has carried the ball 50 times in his career.

mqtirishfan
02-07-2008, 06:18 PM
Yeah, I also don't know how Fason, a 4th rounder, is a bust? He sucks, but a 4th round pick is not really a guy for this kind of list.

russie
02-07-2008, 08:35 PM
Kevin Williams says hi in regard to the Queens not being able to draft D-linemen.
and the purple people eaters say hi to the guy who said minnesota always drafts horribly when it comes to dl

DHVF
02-07-2008, 09:39 PM
come on man, just give it up. Jackson is a bust until he proves he can be an effective QB in this league. He has NOT done that to date. He had a few good games, but then regressed at the end of the season. Aaron Rodgers can't yet be considered a bust (although it was obviously a wasted pick thus far) because he has NEVER started a game... Jackson has at least had the opportunity to show that he blows.So according to your logic any draft pick who has received a decent amount of playing time and haven't proven to be above average are busts? I was basically just saying that it is very hard to condemn any player to be a bust as early in their career as both you and kid ego are claiming...especially when they were considered to be projects upon being drafted. According to this logic, many rookies should already be placed into the "bust" category as their performance thus far has just not been up to par with many of the other players at their respective positions.

DHVF
02-07-2008, 09:43 PM
So by that same logic your using, do you think that Vince young, Matt Leinart are busts too? That is just absolutly ridiculous logic to use pertaining to a second year player especially at such a difficult position as QB.Thank you, didn't see this before I posted above and was thinking of the same examples. Quite simply these players haven't gotten enough playing time in the NFL to be able to write them off as anything other than Incomplete. In addition to all of this, just how many quarterbacks are stars upon first coming into the NFL. One last thing is that I really disagree that Jackson regressed again at the end of last season.

GB12
02-07-2008, 09:49 PM
Thank you, didn't see this before I posted above and was thinking of the same examples. Quite simply these players haven't gotten enough playing time in the NFL to be able to write them off as anything other than Incomplete. In addition to all of this, just how many quarterbacks are stars upon first coming into the NFL. One last thing is that I really disagree that Jackson regressed again at the end of last season.
How could he regress if he never was somewhere to begin with? I don't understand why Vikings fans are still hung up on those back to back average games. I agree that he's not a bust yet, but at this point in his career he's a terrible quarterback. Maybe that will change, but like you said incomplete is the best to put him at right now.

Vikes99ej
02-07-2008, 09:54 PM
Biggest bust in the division:

http://blogs.king5.com/seahawks/images/vikings2.jpg

bearfan
02-07-2008, 10:06 PM
Offense

QB: Rex Grossman
-I would say it would be Grossman, all other QBs have been drafted in the last 3 years, jury is out on all of them. Grossman is the closest thing you can call a bust.
RB: Cedric Benson
-same as QB, Benson just didnt do well in his 1st stint at starter after 3 years in the league.
WR: Charles Rogers, David Terrell, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams
-All top 10 picks, 3 of the 4 arent even on their respective teams.
T: Marc Columbo
-Only one I can think of off the top of my head, couldnt stay healthy for us, but he is a good starter for the boys now.

Kid_Ego
02-07-2008, 10:53 PM
Seneca Wallace is a project notice he sits on the bench and watches and grows. WHAT KIND OF MORON WASTES A 2ND ROUND PICK ON PROJECTS?

This mentality is exactly why the vikings will never win a super bowl.
"Udueze and James" arent busts they just dont always stay healthy and even when they are they arent good pass rushers"
When a 36+ year old DT has more sacks in two years then your 2 1st round draft picks that you drafted to pass rush they officially become BUSTS

Ryan Cook isnt a bust we just havent found the right position for him yet. UHM yes we have the best Position for him is right next to the gatorade.

Between the 2 Draft Blunders and then our picks once we got to pick, The only reason we arent complete laughing stocks is we luckily are in the same division with the freakin Lions!!!!!

Of our Pro Bowlers How many did we actually draft?

Crazy_Chris
02-08-2008, 01:52 PM
Udeze isn't a bust, And if you actually read I said Erasmus James is a bust.

NMUBurner22
02-08-2008, 02:11 PM
Troy Williamson.....21 million guranteed money.hahahahahahahha

hes laughing his butt to the bank.

umphrey
02-08-2008, 03:15 PM
I'd give players differing amounts of time depending on position to label him a bust

Ex.

QB: 3 full years
RB: 1.5 years
WR: 2-3 years
OL: should just steadily improve for 3-5 years
LB: 1-2 years
CB: 3 years

Things like injuries can affect this, but if a guy is hurt 2 out of 3 years I'd consider him a bust until he proves otherwise.

Addict
02-08-2008, 04:27 PM
http://www.nfl.com/teams/detroitlions/depthchart?team=DET

just finished the thread.

johbur
02-09-2008, 12:04 PM
Umm...Tony Mandarich? Arguably the biggest bust ever?

I'll take the cumulative busts the Bears have rolled out over the past 17 seasons... How many losing seasons did the Packers have after Mandarich? How many losing seasons have the Bears had since that draft?

Crazy_Chris
02-09-2008, 06:34 PM
I'd give players differing amounts of time depending on position to label him a bust

Ex.

QB: 3 full years
RB: 1.5 years
WR: 2-3 years
OL: should just steadily improve for 3-5 years
LB: 1-2 years
CB: 3 years

Things like injuries can affect this, but if a guy is hurt 2 out of 3 years I'd consider him a bust until he proves otherwise.

I pretty much agree with that list although i would make a couple of adjustments. I'd go year 4 for QB's, and for WR i would say 3-4 years since most don't of them don't blossom till their 3rd or 4th year.

Jagonsucker
02-17-2008, 05:41 PM
for the lions:

qb: Joey Harrington
wr- Charles Rogers, Mike Williams
dline- Sean Cody
LB- Boss Bailey

crazyisme
02-23-2008, 05:19 PM
QB Tavaris Jackson 2nd rounder?

ummm, okay, you're an idiot right off the bat, 2 years into his career hes started 16 games and he has gotten noticeably better towards the end of last year, not even close to a bust....yet

HB Ciatrick Fason this guy hasnt even carried the ball 50 times in his entire career
is he even on a team right now? haha

Wr Troy williamson The guy couldnt catch a cup of water if he fell out of a boat.
as an ademant twill backer, i agree, hes a bust

OL Ryan Cook again 2nd rounder?
yeap, you nailed it, decent starting RT is definitely a bust....idiot

DL Kenichi Udueze the guy is good on run defense but has never lived up to his billing.

a very solid DE, starting, contributes and is a vital part of our defense....again...your an absolute idiot

Erasumus James the only guy to play less then robert smith did his first 4 years @ the vikings ill agree, tho i still am holding out some hope, he just seems like he doesnt have motivation,

the only thing you proved to me here, is that you arent a good football mind at all

Gay Ork Wang
02-23-2008, 06:09 PM
wow...i agree those werent the smartest picks but to personal attack him? that shows ur mind.

Kid_Ego
02-26-2008, 02:01 AM
No any coach whod put his job on the line for a second round qb who threw 9 tds and 12 ints and did little or nothing to back him up. IS an IDIOT he has a top 5 Defense and an offense who couldnt Pass Gas.

mqtirishfan
02-26-2008, 07:15 PM
ummm, okay, you're an idiot right off the bat, 2 years into his career hes started 16 games and he has gotten noticeably better towards the end of last year, not even close to a bust....yet
Better = well below average. T-Jax sucks, and if he doesn't get much better than he was showing even at the end of the year, he'll never keep a starting job in the NFL.

yeap, you nailed it, decent starting RT is definitely a bust....idiot

Decent RT? Hilarious.

a very solid DE, starting, contributes and is a vital part of our defense....again...your an absolute idiot
A vital part of an average defense, and damn near incapable of pressuring the QB.

the only thing you proved to me here, is that you arent a good football mind at all
You either agreed with the dude, or called him an idiot for things that can really go either way. There's no way in hell that any of these guys have contributed anything that merit you insulting him.

Crazy_Chris
02-26-2008, 07:41 PM
Better = well below average. T-Jax sucks, and if he doesn't get much better than he was showing even at the end of the year, he'll never keep a starting job in the NFL.

As we all know no young QB should be expected to ever struggle during their first 14 starts as a NFL QB. Also the ones that do struggle NEVER amount to anything in the NFL.

He progressed and got better as the season went on thats about all you can look for in young QB's.

Kid_Ego
02-26-2008, 09:30 PM
Where did he get better? he threw 9 touchdowns and 12 ints? When exactly did this huge progression happen? My point is we gave up two picks to get one player and then we havent dared got anyone to present even the slightest amount of competition for the guy. We handed him a keys to the car and now we are trying to find something anything he did right. I agree he had horrible wide outs yet another place we havent drafted well.

Im sorry I feel yet another guy we traded up for Ryan Cook who most would agree wasnt going any where we jumped on him way too early we could of easily gotten him with one of the two picks we traded away in the third round. and still gotten someone else to help our team. The guy simply is ok at best and we cant even decide what position the guy plays yet.

Udueze and James were both first round picks they need to produce some sacks thats why you get drafted in the first round. SACKS you can get plenty of Darrian Scotts in the second round to come in and give marginal presure and stuff the run. THEY are BUSTS. I pray every thing works out of Udueze health wise. I truly mean that. But Again the vikings dropped the ball. If you take away K Williams we havent drafted a good / great Defensive player in the first round since Dewayne Washington in the Mid Nintys. I still have hopes for Greenway. But look at our defense for christ sake we drafted one freaking starter in the first round. 1

mqtirishfan
02-26-2008, 09:32 PM
As we all know no young QB should be expected to ever struggle during their first 14 starts as a NFL QB. Also the ones that do struggle NEVER amount to anything in the NFL.

He progressed and got better as the season went on thats about all you can look for in young QB's.

Did I say anything suggesting other wise? No. I said he must improve to keep a starting job. You'd have to be foolish to disagree with that thought. Although he is still very young and may very well improve greatly this year, he was without a doubt one of the 5 worst starting QBs last season, and even as he improved, he was still very poor.

As for what I can ask of a young QB, is it not fair to hope he can perform well? I'm not ready to throw him under the bus completely, but to call him anything other than bad so far is odd, at best.

The Dynasty
02-26-2008, 10:58 PM
Where did he get better? he threw 9 touchdowns and 12 ints? When exactly did this huge progression happen? My point is we gave up two picks to get one player and then we havent dared got anyone to present even the slightest amount of competition for the guy. We handed him a keys to the car and now we are trying to find something anything he did right. I agree he had horrible wide outs yet another place we haven't drafted well.

Dude. This was the First Time i even Came to this Thread and When I saw you having Tarvaris Jackson as Bust. You are telling me You are Judging Tarvaris Jackson at this stage of 16 Career Starts? You gotta be crazy. How can we judge a Kid who only has 16 career starts and your calling him a bust. By that You should just call a good percentage of the Rookie QB's a bust. After that hit he took against the Chargers and was hurt and the next game he came back played very well. In the 5 games he Played before that game His Completion average was 45.74% then when he was injured and he came back in which he played 7 games his completion average was 67.75%. If You cant see the Progression than I don't know what to tell you.

He doesn't deserve to be labeled as a Bust after 16 Career Starts. Also Lets face it Dude. There Was No one Better anyways. He went 8-4 this year. We went 8-8 whats that tell ya.

Like You said Our Receivers are Bad and he cant succeed if he doesn't have help so thats our problem. Is not having Wideouts, Not Tarvaris.

mqtirishfan
02-26-2008, 11:22 PM
God, I hate when people attribute team success to a player that did very little to positively determine the outcome of that game. Jackson was 8-4 as a starter, but ranged from awful to mediocre in those games, tending to stick at awful for the most part. The fact that Brooks Bollinger is even worse doesn't help Jackson going forward, because if he fails to improve, the Vikings will make damn sure there is a better option.

The Dynasty
02-26-2008, 11:35 PM
God, I hate when people attribute team success to a player that did very little to positively determine the outcome of that game. Jackson was 8-4 as a starter, but ranged from awful to mediocre in those games, tending to stick at awful for the most part. The fact that Brooks Bollinger is even worse doesn't help Jackson going forward, because if he fails to improve, the Vikings will make damn sure there is a better option.

He is 8-4 as a Starter No matter what. Even if Peterson or the Defense helped out. He was the Quaterback the player who leads the team. He didn't screw up like before when we had a 5 game win streak.

He maybe playing Medicore as you say but calling him a Bust is ridiculous. Give Him another year or a year and a half before calling him a bust.

awfullyquiet
02-27-2008, 12:10 AM
Here's the funnier stat.

grossman and peyton manning have about the same int/td ratio at the same career starts.

i don't think jackson is a bust yet. but ineffective thus far? totally. like kyle orton is ineffective (ish).

Crazy_Chris
02-27-2008, 12:23 AM
Where did he get better? he threw 9 touchdowns and 12 ints? When exactly did this huge progression happen? My point is we gave up two picks to get one player and then we havent dared got anyone to present even the slightest amount of competition for the guy. We handed him a keys to the car and now we are trying to find something anything he did right. I agree he had horrible wide outs yet another place we havent drafted well.

You are completely right Kid_Ego he never got better I mean this totally shows how he was equally bad all year long.

First Six 2007 Starts:
Completions: 68 | Attempts: 132 | 51.5% | Yards: 771 | YPA: 5.84 | TD: 2 | Int: 6 Ints | Average Rating: 60.8 | Rushes 16 | Rush Yards 84 | Rush TD: 1

Last Six 2007 Starts:
Completions: 103 | Attempts: 162 | 63.6% | Yards: 1140 | YPA: 7.04 | TD: 7 | Int: 6(one thanks to Ferguson basically throwing the ball to Urlacher) | Average Rating: 91.5 | Rushes 38 | Rush Yards: 176 | Rush TD: 2

Kid_Ego
02-28-2008, 08:45 AM
No Chris your right the kid played 12 games of a 16 game season. He killed our running game by either not being able to audible or his coach not trusting him to either way. The fact is when 9 - 10 guys in the box he still was only able to be average. If he is this great diamond in the rough it seems to me competition would only make him better. I just dont get it with you people you all agree he is a project but your scared to put people on the team that would compete with him. During the late ninetys did we worry about this? WHen we had Brad johnson Randall Cunningham Jeff George and Daunte Culpepper? Did we worry about hurting any of those guys feelings by bringing in competition? DId the Niners worry about it by aquiring Steve young while Montana was still winning superbowls? Or the packers when even after they had a young gunslinger they still went on to draft Mark Brunell Matt Hasselbeck Ty Detmer And Kurt Warner? NO this kind of management is how you never improve. Tom Brady was drafted shortly after there not so old QB Bledsoe had led them to the freaking superbowl. Good Teams dont sit idle they make competition at every position. Including QB.

rchrd
02-28-2008, 01:16 PM
Alex Smith came in and threw 1td to 11ints and people are still giving him time, we're killing Jackson for 9td-12int (plus 3 rushing td's) whilst going 8-4? I mean I dont like mentioning the record but if he's THAT bad how we went 0-4 in the other games doesnt quite make sense to me.

There's a subtle difference between arguing competition and killing a guy in his first year starting on a mediocre team.

RollingMoss
02-28-2008, 03:29 PM
If you saw the last game of the Vikings season against Denver, you know everything you need to know about TJack.

He brought them back in the game, showed off his potential, and played Great w/o AP or Chester giving him much and w/ Williamson showing how 'great' the receivers are (Hey, hey...can ya feeeeeel the sarcasm with that last one?)...

and then he muffed it in overtime. He's close. TJack's earned another season, and if people were saying AlexSmith was gonna breakout last year, they should be saying TJack is gonna breakout this year.

That said, this season is make-or-break for him. Here's hopin' he makes it.

mqtirishfan
02-28-2008, 04:20 PM
Alex Smith came in and threw 1td to 11ints and people are still giving him time, we're killing Jackson for 9td-12int (plus 3 rushing td's) whilst going 8-4? I mean I dont like mentioning the record but if he's THAT bad how we went 0-4 in the other games doesnt quite make sense to me.

There's a subtle difference between arguing competition and killing a guy in his first year starting on a mediocre team.
First of all, these are totally different situations. Alex Smith went first overall, and the 49ers are financially tied to him for now, and even with the fear of having an extremely rich backup, there are rumbings that he will never amount to anyhting and people want him benched. Bringing up another player who has sucked doesn't make your player's season any better.

Only providing 12 total TDs in as many games, and less than 2,000 yards and a 58 completion percentage clearly had more to do with the 8-4 record than Adrian Peterson's huge year. You went 0-4 without T-Jax, because as bad as he was, the Vikings running game didn't need him. The Vikings didn't run the ball well in those games, or the 4 losses he started in. There were only 2 wins by the Vikings this year that a RB did not score 2+ TDs. One was against the Falcons, and the other was the Giants game that the Vikings defense outscored either offense.

There's also a subtle difference between improving and playing well. He had more TDs than turnovers 2 times this year and had 200+ yards 3 times this year. That's simply bad. Of course he should get another year, but he certainly has an incredibly long way to go to be a quality starter. Hell, he has quite a long way to go to be an average starter.

Kid_Ego
02-28-2008, 06:51 PM
I completely agree with MT,Other teams have brought in competition for better qbs and succeed Mike Holmgren drafts qbs almost every year always trying to upgrade even with the great Brett Farve he brought in Brunell just in case this is what seperates GREAT Organizations from Want to be's Not committing to unproven talent. Did the Patriots bat an eye to draft Cassill or the niners flinch to bring in steve young?

A truely Great GM bring in competition at every position. And as for your Great T-Jack come Back to me its like Elways 4th Quarter come backs sure he had a bunch to some it might show leadership to me it shows his team was losing alot of close games going into the fourth quarter. You might see that as impressive I see that as a huge problem.

Or Brett Farves consecitive starts for christ sakes the one year he three 26 ints and 12 tds anybody else's consequetive starts would of ended some where around 20 ints. He would of then been holding a clip board and handing out gatorade.

SO this whole 8-4 record how good could he really of been he had 9 tds all season. And that is with two of those coming in his lose to the broncos. Im simply saying. When we had Johnson at qb we went and got cunningham and george then still drafted Culpepper that is smart. Having a second round reach and noone to make him better is stupid. And what about the 4 games he didnt play in that is another concern. Candy coat it if you wish but most of the teams he beat are picking in front of us. ANd Eli Manning beat the giants. Not T-jack

rchrd
02-28-2008, 06:58 PM
First of all, these are totally different situations. Alex Smith went first overall, and the 49ers are financially tied to him for now, and even with the fear of having an extremely rich backup, there are rumbings that he will never amount to anyhting and people want him benched. Bringing up another player who has sucked doesn't make your player's season any better.

Only providing 12 total TDs in as many games, and less than 2,000 yards and a 58 completion percentage clearly had more to do with the 8-4 record than Adrian Peterson's huge year. You went 0-4 without T-Jax, because as bad as he was, the Vikings running game didn't need him. The Vikings didn't run the ball well in those games, or the 4 losses he started in. There were only 2 wins by the Vikings this year that a RB did not score 2+ TDs. One was against the Falcons, and the other was the Giants game that the Vikings defense outscored either offense.

There's also a subtle difference between improving and playing well. He had more TDs than turnovers 2 times this year and had 200+ yards 3 times this year. That's simply bad. Of course he should get another year, but he certainly has an incredibly long way to go to be a quality starter. Hell, he has quite a long way to go to be an average starter.

You're going to have to stretch as it's fairly difficult to find 2 identical situations in todays nfl to compare im afraid. Thanks for the extremely helpful sarcasm though, completely misread the point I was trying to make and responded with a point I in no way whatsoever tried to make but I wont take it personally, it's cool I probably over simplified the post anyway.

In fact im not even sure why you're quoting me. You're telling me things you've assumed I must be thinking and then come to the conclusion that I'm already at. If you got confused when I said i'm completely open to the possibility of him being out of the league in a couple of years then that's hardly my fault, but you probably shouldnt be talking to me as if i've in any way stated anything other than the fact I think it's irresponsible and short sighted to be killing him as much as some people in this thread have done, which judging the last couple of lines in your reply you dont seem to have a problem with.

mqtirishfan
02-28-2008, 07:04 PM
In fact im not even sure why you're quoting me

It had quite a bit to do with the whole 8-4 argument. Really, if you can't put points/yards, or protect the ball, or put up a decent completion percentage, you had an awful year. I figured the fact that you used one of the most prevalent pro-Jackson points meant you thought he was anything other than bad for the season.

I'm not arguing against the notion of giving him more time, or for the idea of him being a bust. I'm just claiming that he has been a horrible QB thusfar, which some people seem to have a major problem with.

Kid_Ego
02-28-2008, 07:48 PM
ANd Im simply saying stop sheltering him and find him some competition Brett remained the starter its time for this project to man up or ship out

Crazy_Chris
02-29-2008, 12:47 AM
No Chris your right the kid played 12 games of a 16 game season. He killed our running game by either not being able to audible or his coach not trusting him to either way. The fact is when 9 - 10 guys in the box he still was only able to be average. If he is this great diamond in the rough it seems to me competition would only make him better. I just dont get it with you people you all agree he is a project but your scared to put people on the team that would compete with him. During the late ninetys did we worry about this? WHen we had Brad johnson Randall Cunningham Jeff George and Daunte Culpepper? Did we worry about hurting any of those guys feelings by bringing in competition? DId the Niners worry about it by aquiring Steve young while Montana was still winning superbowls? Or the packers when even after they had a young gunslinger they still went on to draft Mark Brunell Matt Hasselbeck Ty Detmer And Kurt Warner? NO this kind of management is how you never improve. Tom Brady was drafted shortly after there not so old QB Bledsoe had led them to the freaking superbowl. Good Teams dont sit idle they make competition at every position. Including QB.

Ugh I'm so sick of that ignorant arguement. Why is it so hard to understand that the passing game as a whole would be the correct reason. Why is it so hard realize that teams were also stacking the box because they weren't scrared of any of our WR's. In fact if you reallyyy want to get down to it Adrian slowed down but Chester averaged 7.9 YPC over that same exact stretch so why don't we blame Adrian for some of his porblems too. I mean it's not like teams hadn't been stacking the box against us until then. Teams had been stacking the box all year and some of Adrian best runs came against stacked boxes.

ANd Im simply saying stop sheltering him and find him some competition Brett remained the starter its time for this project to man up or ship out

See but now your changing the basis of your arguement it's was not "lets just bring some competition to push him"(which absolutly no one would have a problem with), but more like "DUDE! Tarvaris is a total bust".

Kid_Ego
02-29-2008, 12:59 AM
He is a BUST we gave up two third round draft picks for a guy who hasnt even proved he can play a full season. Your trying to act like this dude did something to keep his job he didnt and if he was on any other team something tells me youd see him for what he is a project. PROJECTS arent second round picks period

DHVF
02-29-2008, 01:16 AM
He is a BUST we gave up two third round draft picks for a guy who hasnt even proved he can play a full season. Your trying to act like this dude did something to keep his job he didnt and if he was on any other team something tells me youd see him for what he is a project. PROJECTS arent second round picks period
Dude, he's had one season to prove that he could stay healthy, which was the only reason he didn't start every game, so lay off. And what in the hell does that second part regarding projects even mean? In one moment you basically call him a project, than the next you go on to say that a team cannot make a project out of its second round pick, which is even more ludicrous of a statement to make. The second round as well as every other round are used all the time as places to select a "project" type player that teams wish to groom into an eventual starter for their future.

Kid_Ego
02-29-2008, 01:19 AM
we traded away two thirds for a project? and then got rid of any formidable competition

Crazy_Chris
02-29-2008, 01:24 AM
Kid how about Brodie Croyle, Kellen Clemens, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, all total busts too right? You expect too good of results too soon these kids are playing the hardest position in all of football. It takes time they don't all play as well as some one like Jay Cutler has.

RollingMoss
02-29-2008, 10:53 AM
Your trying to act like this dude did something to keep his job he didnt and if he was on any other team something tells me youd see him for what he is a project.

What?


Dude...he did do something to keep his job, did you watch the Denver game? Up until That game, I'd be right here agreeing with you, but that game Happened. That game, coupled with a noticeable and statistical improvement in accuracy and decision-making that I would've ignored too if not for the Denver game, has Earned him another season. He pretty much single-handedly brought us back against a defense that while banged-up and underachieving, had enough talent to destroy a "bust" who Had to pass to bring back his team.

And I'm pretty sure no one is arguing that he's not a project. We're simply saying he has Earned another season - and that's as good as it is scary.

And first-round picks have been spent on projects too, ya know; Vince Young, for starters.

We do need a Capable back-up, true, but you're talking about competition for some reason; there isn't and shouldn't be a competition for QB. TJack is the QB next year, and your "reasoning" for why he shouldn't be is not based on factual/objective evidence; it's based on subjective feelings.

vikesrock28
04-17-2008, 02:37 AM
Over-rating combine stats and work outs over game play and talent faced in college contributed to Tarvaris Jackson, Demetrius Underwood, Troy Williamson, etc.

gmose10
04-26-2008, 11:15 AM
um Kevin Jones is a complete bust in 4 years with the Lions he never even played all 16 games with them once

BSD
08-04-2008, 10:40 AM
Some guys from 2002 onwards...first and second rounders only.

Bears:
Michael Haynes
Rex Grossman
Cedric Benson
Mark Bradley

Lions:
Joey Harrington
Charles Rogers
Mike Williams
Shaun Cody

Packers:
Terrence Murphy (injury)
Ahmad Carroll

Vikings:
Troy Williamson
Erasmus James
Marcus Johnson
Dontarrious Thomas
Raonall Smith

Gay Ork Wang
08-04-2008, 11:19 AM
Mark Bradley is not a bust yet

GB12
08-04-2008, 11:25 AM
Mark Bradley is not a bust yet
He hasn't done **** in three years. He's averaging only 12 catches a year and they have declined each season. 6 catches for 71 yards and 1 TD was what he had in 15 games last year, that's what a good WR gets in one game. As of now it's definitely fair to call him a bust.

Gay Ork Wang
08-04-2008, 11:31 AM
thats because sexy rex was more concerned of running around and throwing the ball away. If Mark can stay healthy, i think he could make sth happen.

BSD
08-04-2008, 12:21 PM
thats because sexy rex was more concerned of running around and throwing the ball away. If Mark can stay healthy, i think he could make sth happen.

Bradley hasn't done anything in the NFL as of yet. He's done less than even Troy Williamson who is basically unamiously a bust.

There is also no way you can blame Grossman for the numbers Bradley put up.

Addict
08-07-2008, 08:06 AM
You make this list without including Joey Harrington and C-Rog... crazy.

drowe
08-08-2008, 10:48 AM
ok, i'm really gonna try this...but, i'll probably get bored and quit. and i'm just gonna use players that were drafted in the past 10 years...i know somebody said players that are still playing...but, F that guy.


QB-Joey Harrington-Grossman and Jackson will never overtake him, because they had SOME success...and Harrington had much higher expectations as the 3rd overall pick.

RB-Cedric Benson-again, he takes it due to high expectations as a top 5 pick...and close to nothing in terms of production.

WR-Charles Rogers-he is the #1 bust. second pick and nothing to show for it. that sucks
WR-Mike Williams-he gets the nod over T-Will because he's been released by most NFL teams already.

TE-Greg Olson-yeah, it is too early. and it's not his fault anyway. but somebody had to win...and nobody else has drafted a TE early recently.

Offensive Line-the collective early draft picks of the Bears and Lions...and Ryan Cook.

DE-Jamal Reynolds-yeah, good thing we didn't waste this pick on Richard Seymour.
DE-Erasmus James-gets the nod over Udeze because he sucks more...and Udeze has AIDS and stuff now.
DT-Justin Harrell-because it was a stupid pick and now he's missing TC because his vagina hurts.
DT-Shaun Cody..was he a DE or a DT? i don't care. i'm putting him here.

LB-Dimitrius Underwood-i can't remember when he was drafted...but it was awesome when he retired before his rookie year.
LB-Boss Bailey-i didn't know he was that bad...but some other dude used him...so, i'll buy that.
LB-Brian Urlacher. seriously. so over rated. just kidding Bears fans.
but, seriously, i'm getting bored.

CB-Ahmad Carroll-yeah, i just toughed it out through the LBs so i could mention this ass clown.
S-Cade McNown-yeah, i know. but, nobody uses high draft picks on safetys. so, i just needed to remind everybody how bad this guy was.

bearsfan_51
08-11-2008, 03:07 PM
Greg Olsen is a bust? *Scratches head* Olsen had a good year last year and the arrow appears to be nothing but pointed up.

If you want a 1st round TE how about Bubba Franks? Yeah he had a decent career, but mid-1st round pick good? I certainly don't think so.

drowe
08-11-2008, 03:12 PM
Greg Olsen is a bust? *Scratches head* Olsen had a good year last year and the arrow appears to be nothing but pointed up.

If you want a 1st round TE how about Bubba Franks? Yeah he had a decent career, but mid-1st round pick good? I certainly don't think so.

he made the pro bowl multiple times (3, i think). no way he's a bust. and, i said greg olsen wasn't a bust...but he's the only candidate since nobody else drafted a TE early.

but between Franks and Olsen, Olsen would be the bust of the two.

bearsfan_51
08-11-2008, 03:21 PM
I'm sorry but that's absurd. I don't care how many pro bowls Franks made, is he a probowl tight end? No. Olsen averaged more yards and catches in his rookie season than Franks did throughout a 7 year career with the Packers. This includes being part of a passing offense, being a starter for the majority of the time, and not playing with a ****** at quarterback. Franks sucked so bad by year 5-6 that he got shipped out of town.

Not to mention that Franks was taken 16 spots higher than Olsen in the draft. If Olsen does no better than Franks did in Green Bay I will be very suprised. You're taking a guy that's been cut over a guy that had close to 40 catches for 400 yards as a backup rookie.

mqtirishfan
08-11-2008, 03:29 PM
I'm sorry but that's absurd. I don't care how many pro bowls Franks made, is he a probowl tight end? No.

This is one of the most fantastic statements I've ever read.

bearsfan_51
08-11-2008, 03:31 PM
Thanks. The logic of Franks making the probowl is so irrational that it couldn't have possibly happened.

Gay Ork Wang
08-11-2008, 03:41 PM
This is one of the most fantastic statements I've ever read.
Its not in the times when ProBowl apparences mean popularity and when he uses pro bowl tightend as actually quality

drowe
08-11-2008, 03:51 PM
no. you're wrong. Bubba Franks had 5 years as a huge part of the Packer's offense and one of the most productive TEs in the league. and, stats aside, dude was a good blocker too. the fact that he faded late in his career and was replaced by younger/cheaper talent is irrelevant. ya don't have to be tony gonzalez to NOT be labled a bust.

drowe
08-11-2008, 04:02 PM
and, really, just the fact that greg olsen was an offensive skill position player drafted by the bears makes him a bust. david terrell, curtis enis, cedric benson, rex grossman, cade mcnown. see, the historical factor alone justifies me putting him there.

mqtirishfan
08-11-2008, 04:06 PM
Its not in the times when ProBowl apparences mean popularity and when he uses pro bowl tightend as actually quality

Either way, to say he isn't a pro bowl tight end is absolutely as false as it gets.

Gay Ork Wang
08-11-2008, 04:06 PM
So Calvin Johnson will be a bust too?

drowe
08-11-2008, 04:11 PM
hey, at least the Lions had some success drafting WRs.

any skill position players drafted by the bears in the first round can expect the same success and longevity as a drummer from Spinal Tap.

bearsfan_51
08-11-2008, 04:25 PM
Either way, to say he isn't a pro bowl tight end is absolutely as false as it gets.

No **** sherlock. If you want to be literal about it that's a pretty obvious statement. But Franks was never a top tight end, regardless of whether he made the probowl or not. He had one season where he had more yards or catches than Greg Olsen had in his rookie season. It's ridiculous to say that Olsen is the more likely bust after a strong rookie season when we've already seen that Bubba Franks never lived up to the billing as a 14th overall pick as a pro.

bearsfan_51
08-11-2008, 04:26 PM
hey, at least the Lions had some success drafting WRs.

any skill position players drafted by the bears in the first round can expect the same success and longevity as a drummer from Spinal Tap.

And yet we'll still sweep the Packers.

Lovie Smith- 6

Packers- 2

drowe
08-11-2008, 06:28 PM
And yet we'll still sweep the Packers.

Lovie Smith- 6

Packers- 2

that's all ya got.

you can keep making those kind of predictions about the packers though. we all know how it worked last year when the packers didn't easily win the division :)

bearsfan_51
08-11-2008, 06:42 PM
Hey even Socrates was wrong on occasion.

RockJock07
08-11-2008, 06:52 PM
And yet we'll still sweep the Packers.

Lovie Smith- 6

Packers- 2

And they both have 0 super bowl wins in that time, who cares what the record is? In addition to that, the bears will have a hard time getting 2 wins vs. the packers this season with their roster.

bearsfan_51
08-11-2008, 06:58 PM
And they both have 0 super bowl wins in that time, who cares what the record is? In addition to that, the bears will have a hard time getting 2 wins vs. the packers this season with their roster.
Short of winning the Superbowl or the division, sweeping the Packers is the next best thing for a Bears fan. When we went 13-3 in 2001 and lost twice to the Packers it wasn't quite the same. I'm guessing there is a fair share of Packers fans that feel the same way about last year. If you don't care about beating your rival you should stop watching sports.

drowe
08-11-2008, 07:07 PM
Lovie Smith- 6

Packers- 2


so, on a much larger scale...what's the bears' record against brett favre? :)

mqtirishfan
08-11-2008, 07:37 PM
Short of winning the Superbowl or the division, sweeping the Packers is the next best thing for a Bears fan. When we went 13-3 in 2001 and lost twice to the Packers it wasn't quite the same. I'm guessing there is a fair share of Packers fans that feel the same way about last year. If you don't care about beating your rival you should stop watching sports.

Nah, the loss to the Giants was about a million times worse than a useless loss to the Bears.

Gay Ork Wang
08-12-2008, 07:22 AM
hey, at least the Lions had some success drafting WRs.

any skill position players drafted by the bears in the first round can expect the same success and longevity as a drummer from Spinal Tap.
Just Like Walter Payton?

drowe
08-12-2008, 08:36 AM
Just Like Walter Payton?.....

who?

GB12
08-16-2008, 07:14 PM
I don't care how many pro bowls Franks made, is he a probowl tight end? No.
Yes, he was. In 2001, his first pro bowl, he lead NFL tight ends in TD receptions with 9. In 2002 he again lead NFL tight ends in TD receptions with 7. 2003 he was not deserving, but then in 2004 he was deserving and didn't go. He suffered neck and knee injuries in 2005 and has been pretty awful since, but he was very good from 2002-2004.

bearsfan_51
08-20-2008, 08:44 PM
That's fine, I'll let the Franks thing go as I don't care that much, but I'm still willing to bet that Greg Olsen has a better career relative to draft slot, inferior quarterback or no.

Marlo
09-17-2008, 11:53 AM
That's fine, I'll let the Franks thing go as I don't care that much, but I'm still willing to bet that Greg Olsen has a better career relative to draft slot, inferior quarterback or no.

Well he's already beating Franks in fumbles lost... :rolleyes:

sweetness34
09-19-2008, 05:19 PM
You really want to get into this? Lets look at the much larger scale and see that the Bears still lead the all-time series against the Packers.

That's right Vince, that was Halas' fist in your face.

drowe
09-19-2008, 05:43 PM
You really want to get into this? Lets look at the much larger scale and see that the Bears still lead the all-time series against the Packers.

That's right Vince, that was Halas' fist in your face.

yeah, the bears "fans" always play the all time head to head card because it's all they have. they know they are the far inferior franchise in every way. less championships, crappy stadium, terrible ownership. wonder what they'll do in a decade when the packers take the all time series lead away...

bearsfan_51
09-19-2008, 05:43 PM
Well he's already beating Franks in fumbles lost... :rolleyes:
Holy crap he had a bad game, let's set him on fire.

bearsfan_51
09-19-2008, 05:44 PM
yeah, the bears "fans" always play the all time head to head card because it's all they have. they know they are the far inferior franchise in every way. less championships, crappy stadium, terrible ownership. wonder what they'll do in a decade when the packers take the all time series lead away...
How is that going to happen when we keep sweeping you?

drowe
09-19-2008, 05:46 PM
You really want to get into this? Lets look at the much larger scale and see that the Bears still lead the all-time series against the Packers.

That's right Vince, that was Halas' fist in your face.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Superbowl_Trophy_Crop.jpg

that's right George. if you were half the man/coach Vince was, this trophy would be named after you.

drowe
09-19-2008, 05:48 PM
How is that going to happen when we keep sweeping you?

keep talking about the Bears sweeping the Packers. i'll make sure to come back to this thread and get a nice collection of quotes. :)

or, is it your goal to be in every Packer fan's sig quote at some point?

drowe
09-19-2008, 05:51 PM
Holy crap he had a bad game, let's set him on fire.

yeah, really. can't expect the poor guy to have a breakout, probowl year in just his second year in the league.....like Bubba did. :)

Gay Ork Wang
09-19-2008, 05:53 PM
Greg Olsen has Kyle Orton throwing him the ball...KYLE ORTON

bearsfan_51
09-19-2008, 06:55 PM
keep talking about the Bears sweeping the Packers. i'll make sure to come back to this thread and get a nice collection of quotes. :)

or, is it your goal to be in every Packer fan's sig quote at some point?
Even if the Packers win the next 4 games, they will still only break even against the Bears under Lovie Smith. On that point, however, you were the one that brought up breaking the win differential, even though recent history suggests it's only getting larger.

There's very often a thin line for you between logical argument and blatant inflammatory homerism. The facts aren't on your side in this case.


As for Olsen, there is of course the Orton factor, along with the fact that we operate out of a 2 tight end set, which will hurt his numbers. I think we've already established that Bubba had a few nice years. I also think it's pretty safe to say that if you take a tight end with the 14th pick in the draft, you're going to expect at least that much if not much more career longevity.

Anyway, like I've said before, I find the Olsen is a bust comment simply stupid at this point, so there's really no need to rehash.

johbur
09-20-2008, 12:56 PM
Short of winning the Superbowl or the division, sweeping the Packers is the next best thing for a Bears fan. When we went 13-3 in 2001 and lost twice to the Packers it wasn't quite the same. I'm guessing there is a fair share of Packers fans that feel the same way about last year. If you don't care about beating your rival you should stop watching sports.

QFT.

There's only one Super Bowl winner out of 32 teams. Does that mean everyone team that didn't win the SB championship had a terrible year? There's winning your Division and winning your Conference. and there's beating the teams you hate. I still like smacking Yampa Bay around, even though they're gone out of the NFC Norte. That year of 13-3 for the Bears and our 13-3 last year have that little touch of: nice record, but your rival is still going to talk smack to you due to the double loss.

Look in the off-season, even with the players. Favre retires and the Vikings D-line is going on about how they'll get after Rodgers. The O-line stones them and then the smack talk starts in reverse.

Also, for this thread, who CURRENTLY on your roster do you think is under-performing?

Rodgers has started to earn his 1st round selection. Brandon Jackson has filled in OK and has had a chance in Grant's absence, but for a second round RB, I'm thinking starter more than back-up. For the Packers though, Justin Harrel, DT, is on PuP and has been a total dissappointment. What a worthless pick. It's even a worse pick when I look over who could have been taken, namely Aaron Ross to be groomed as the 3rd CB, which also would have hurt the Gints.

bearsfan_51
09-20-2008, 01:04 PM
Well we cut so many busts this offseason, there aren't as many left, but Mark Bradley continues to stick around to remind everyone how completely non-productive he's been.

Jury is still out on Chris Williams.

sweetness34
09-20-2008, 01:05 PM
No need to get defensive. And yes, the Lombardi trophy is the Super Bowl trophy, he is still the face of the NFL for what he accomplished.

But hey, the Halas Trophy is the NFC Championship and he was one of the founders of this great league.

Just sayin' that we lead the all-time series and our current coach has kicked your ass. :D