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AtariBigby
01-04-2009, 07:03 PM
Now who comes in?
Or another promotion from within another average (or subpar) unit, the LB coach Winston Moss?

PackerLegend
01-04-2009, 07:06 PM
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/01/breaking-news-packers-fire-sanders/

YYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

The Vikings 1 and Done
Sanders Fired
Stock "Retired"


Woow how could this week have turned out any better.

PACKmanN
01-04-2009, 07:06 PM
I wonder what people find in Moss that makes people think he has HC potential.

EvilMonkey
01-04-2009, 07:09 PM
happy guy right here

AtariBigby
01-04-2009, 07:37 PM
Somebody else put up odds on who the Packers new DC will be.

Here's my odds:

Winston Moss 5-2
Mike Nolan 3-1
Jim Haslett 5-1
Sean McDermott 8-1
Other 2-1

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/team/CoachBios.asp?coach_id=10

princefielder28
01-04-2009, 07:38 PM
Somebody else put up odds on who the Packers new DC will be.

Here's my odds:

Winston Moss 5-2
Mike Nolan 3-1
Jim Haslett 5-1
Sean McDermott 8-1
Other 2-1

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/team/CoachBios.asp?coach_id=10

I hope it's McDermott

GB12
01-04-2009, 07:45 PM
I hope it's McDermott
I have strong doubts that he'll be the guy. I don't particularly want him either. I mean I wouldn't be upset if he is hired, but I'd rather not.

AtariBigby
01-04-2009, 08:01 PM
I have strong doubts that he'll be the guy. I don't particularly want him either. I mean I wouldn't be upset if he is hired, but I'd rather not.
If you'd 'rather not' have McDermott, who would you rather have?

GB12
01-04-2009, 08:16 PM
If you'd 'rather not' have McDermott, who would you rather have?
I think he's a very good coach, but I'm just not big on going to Philly's scheme. I know that's the popular thing right now and people want to get far away from the Jim Bates system, but I'm not sure going to that is the best option either. I gave some names I'm interested in earlier in the other thread, but I'm not really set on one guy right now. Now that Sanders is officially gone hopefully we'll start hearing some names of candidates they are actually interested in.

I do think that Haslett would be a nice medium between the two. The basis of the defense and players are similar to what we have already, but he brings the aggressiveness that so many want. Like I said I'm not really set on one guy yet, but Haslett is catching my interest quite a bit. Todd Orlando is another I hope we at least give an interview.

If we do hire Mcdermott I can more than live with it, but there are other options worth exploring.

AtariBigby
01-04-2009, 08:50 PM
From Tommy P:

Among the defensive coordinators available are former San Francisco coach Mike Nolan, former New York Jets coach Eric Mangini, former Cleveland Browns coach Romeo Crennel and former Jacksonville defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, plus probably Jim Haslett, who likely won’t be retained as coach by the St. Louis Rams. McCarthy served on Nolan's staff in San Francisco and on Haslett's staff in New Orleans.

AtariBigby
01-04-2009, 08:52 PM
Does anybody think we will actually sign even one big name FA this off-season?
I polled the Ravens Nation and they seem to think there's a chance Terrell Suggs will get away, and they don't care if they lose Bart Scott. They think he's part of the system (the same system I want by the way because it makes guys into stars).

They expect Ray Lewis to stay, as I do. He can't leave there.

Wouldn't we, with our 4-3 that has the OLBers cover more than rush, be a total mismatch for Suggs?

princefielder28
01-04-2009, 08:53 PM
Does anybody think we will actually sign even one big name FA this off-season?
I polled the Ravens Nation and they seem to think there's a chance Terrell Suggs will get away, and they don't care if they lose Bart Scott. They think he's part of the system (the same system I want by the way because it makes guys into stars).

They expect Ray Lewis to stay, as I do. He can't leave there.

Wouldn't we, with our 4-3 that has the OLBers cover more than rush, be a total mismatch for Suggs?

Suggs will be their first priority of the two and I don't see him getting away.

AtariBigby
01-04-2009, 09:22 PM
A bit more on Winston Moss, who I predict will be named our new DC. Another promotion-from-within, a la Bob Sanders.

Moss said he is not married to Sanders' scheme, or the blitz-heavy strategy used by Jim Haslett, Moss' boss for six seasons with the New Orleans Saints.

"I'm more along the line of whatever players that you end of having, put them in a great scheme, put them the best possible position to make a play and then get the hell out of the way," Moss said.

If MM decides to switch schemes and go more for a 3-4 defense, former San Francisco 49ers coach Mike Nolan and former Cleveland Browns coach Romeo Crennel are available. Nolan hired McCarthy as the 49ers' offensive coordinator in 2005

TitleTown088
01-05-2009, 10:43 AM
Apparently everyone aside from Moss was Canned on the defensive side of the ball.

AtariBigby
01-05-2009, 10:49 AM
PACKERS DUMP REST OF DEFENSIVE COACHING STAFF, EXCEPT MOSS
-January 5, 2009, 10:44 a.m.

A day after firing defensive coordinator Bob Sanders and three days after special teams coordinator Mike Stock “retired,” the Packers reportedly have scuttled the rest of their defensive coaching staff.

Per NFP, all defensive assistants except assistant head coach/linebackers coach Winston Moss have been fired.

Gone, then, are defensive ends coach Carl Hairston, defensive tackles coach Robert Nunn, secondary coach Kurt Schottenheimer, cornerbacks/nickel package coach Lionel Washington, and quality control assistant Joe Whitt, Jr.

All signs pointing to Mike Nolan, who wants to bring in his own guys. If Winston Moss was going to be the new DC, he wouldn't have had all the other coaches fired because how and where is Moss gonna bring in a total new staff from.

Who else would Nolan bring in? Anyone leftover from his defensive staff on Baltimore?

TitleTown088
01-05-2009, 11:14 AM
All signs pointing to Mike Nolan, who wants to bring in his own guys. If Winston Moss was going to be the new DC, he wouldn't have had all the other coaches fired because how and where is Moss gonna bring in a total new staff from.

Who else would Nolan bring in? Anyone leftover from his defensive staff on Baltimore?

How does anything there equate all signs point to Nolan? He's a possibility, but far from the only canidate.

Even the stregnth and conditioning coach was canned. Dayyum.

Whistler6
01-05-2009, 11:26 AM
It's shaping up to be a pretty eventful offseason.. I'm excited to see what direction the Pack go with their D.


Did anyone read the stuff about Jeff Jagodzinski possibly getting fired from Boston College just for interviewing for the Jets HC'ing job? I guess it's not exactly Packer related, but he was our Offensive Coordinator for a while and TE's coach so yeah.

Yatta!
01-05-2009, 11:33 AM
It's shaping up to be a pretty eventful offseason.. I'm excited to see what direction the Pack go with their D.


Did anyone read the stuff about Jeff Jagodzinski possibly getting fired from Boston College just for interviewing for the Jets HC'ing job? I guess it's not exactly Packer related, but he was our Offensive Coordinator for a while and TE's coach so yeah.

Woah big news. This could be interesting now.

That Jagodzinski thing is bull, he's a good coach. I think McCarthy would want him back if possible, maybe as assistant head coach if Moss gets DC. Unlikely though.

Yatta!
01-05-2009, 02:56 PM
such as? without a source, this statement is pretty baseless.

also, what about rod marinelli? bad as a head coach..but, by all accounts a great defensive mind.

There was talk on the Bears boards of him rejoining Lovie Smith, I know Marinelli definitely interviewed there. I think he was in line for a DL/assitant head coach position iirc.

GB12
01-05-2009, 03:39 PM
such as? without a source, this statement is pretty baseless.

also, what about rod marinelli? bad as a head coach..but, by all accounts a great defensive mind.
No way would I want Marinelli. I hate the Tampa 2.

GB12
01-05-2009, 03:45 PM
All signs pointing to Mike Nolan, who wants to bring in his own guys. If Winston Moss was going to be the new DC, he wouldn't have had all the other coaches fired because how and where is Moss gonna bring in a total new staff from.
I think you're right that it means it won't be Moss, but I don't see how all signs point to Nolan. It means the DC will come from outside the organization, but I don't think it narrows it down any from what we knew before. No matter who we bring in whether it's Nolan, Haslett, McDermott, whoever, they're going to bring their own guys with them. Only one that I find kind of surprising is that Schottenheimer got canned given how well the seconday was this season. That said I thought he should have been fired after 2006 and 2007 so the great secondary play this year might not have had much to do with him.

As for Jagodzinski, if he takes the interview and doesn't get the Jets job I'd take him back in a second as offensive coordinator. He had the offensive line playing well when he was here and then they all seemed to regress. Same players, but not as good as they were when he was here. Tony Moll especially. I thought he was pretty good as a rookie and now he's terrible. To run the ZBS you need a guy that can coach it and Jeff was that guy.

AtariBigby
01-05-2009, 04:01 PM
such as? without a source, this statement is pretty baseless.

Do you not read PackersNews.com or JSOnline.com Packers coverage?

jdcozart
01-05-2009, 04:10 PM
Why was the O-line coach not canned? The line isn't producing. The holes just aren't overwhelming for the RBs and I would love to see Thompson gone too!!

PACKmanN
01-05-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm a little upset over the Lionel Washington firing.

PACKmanN
01-05-2009, 04:26 PM
Do you not read PackersNews.com or JSOnline.com Packers coverage?

I would love to see a link of where they say that Nolan will be the guy all the links I read list names...

bigboiajhawk
01-05-2009, 05:05 PM
I'm a little upset over the Lionel Washington firing.

I agree there. I remember the DB's saying how much they liked him. I was a little bit suprised about Rock Gullickson getting fired too. He was the top Strength and Conditioning Coach in 2007.

GB12
01-05-2009, 05:10 PM
I agree there. I remember the DB's saying how much they liked him. I was a little bit suprised about Rock Gullickson getting fired too. He was the top Strength and Conditioning Coach in 2007.
How is that determined?

bigboiajhawk
01-05-2009, 05:16 PM
How is that determined?

Go to Packersnews.com.


It is determined by his peers in the field, the other strength and conditioning coaches in the NFL.

TitleTown088
01-05-2009, 05:41 PM
GB12, I think you're right when you say its likely not going to be Moss with all the firings, but you have to remember that TT signed him even before MM, he's not a guy who was a product of the sander, or Bates system for that matter. So IF he were the guy he'd could want his own staff and abandon the bate system.

( all this info is off the top of my head so I may not be remembering it all correctly)

AtariBigby
01-05-2009, 06:13 PM
GB12, I think you're right when you say its likely not going to be Moss with all the firings, but you have to remember that TT signed him even before MM, he's not a guy who was a product of the sander, or Bates system for that matter. So IF he were the guy he'd could want his own staff and abandon the bate system.

( all this info is off the top of my head so I may not be remembering it all correctly)

No, I said it, GB12 agreed with it. :p

Now, if Moss was to get the job, where is he going to come up with a complete staff? Who does he have access to that has the ability and experience to coach all the positions and implement whatever scheme Moss wants to run? I don't believe he would be capable of finding his own positional coaches up and down the defense. It's more likely he'd work under Nolan or Haslett than Moss being in charge. Also, I seriously doubt Moss gets the offer from the Rams.

narf029
01-05-2009, 07:14 PM
As far as filling out a Winston Moss staff, he doesn't just need to look at guys he's worked with. He can go to former teammates who want to break into the league as coaches, or former coaches during his career, or even look at the U to help him fill out a staff. I don't see that playing any role in him not being a D-Coordinator.

I feel like Winston Moss will be highly considered for DC, but in the end he'll be more valuable as assistant head coach in case McCarthy comes out next year and lays an egg in the first half of next year (so Moss will be LB/replacement HC much like Singletary was in San Francisco), and it's pretty tough to be an assistant head coach as well as manage the entire defense. I see the connections with Nolan and would be pretty happy with him. Most of all though, I'm just looking forward to the Packers finally going shopping.

The Legend
01-06-2009, 12:34 AM
I didn't get to watch to many games this year. Did Woodson move out to safety? Seems I have read that a few times now. Can someone explain to me why?

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
01-06-2009, 12:36 AM
I didn't get to watch to many games this year. Did Woodson move out to safety? Seems I have read that a few times now. Can someone explain to me why?

because the packers are so deep at corner and they were so injured at safety they put him there

AtariBigby
01-06-2009, 08:04 AM
What is this, the Ravens thread now? LOL

That's true. Our brilliant minds felt that because our #3 CB Tramon Williams was one of their best 4 DB's, that it made sense to take Charles away from the position he played best at, and move him so safety, to get Tramon onto the field at CB.

So it weakened Charles, and it weakened the CB postion at the same time.
The fact that Atari Bigby was injured almost this whole year SHOULD reveal how important he was to this defense in 07, and how good he really was in 07.

Gay Ork Wang
01-06-2009, 08:14 AM
to get Tramon onto the field at QB.

yay Tramon should play QB!

AtariBigby
01-06-2009, 09:52 AM
yay Tramon should play QB!
Why not, we're about the only team that didn't throw in any WILDCAT FORMATION this year! LOL

Tramon has great ball skillz.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
01-06-2009, 02:37 PM
whats with all the ravens talk guys?? lol yea nolan was good if you guys are looking for DC he would probably be good. just stay away from rex ryan lol good luck next year

GB12
01-06-2009, 10:52 PM
Joe Whitt Jr. will likely be named the secondary coach.

AtariBigby
01-07-2009, 01:44 PM
You must admit having the sort of highly effective and exciting defenses we've seen in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England and San Diego and trying to apply that standard to the Packers is an interesting mental exercise.

Interesting yes.
Also, exciting as hell. If we do it right, use our $40 million in cap space well, draft right, and trade Kampman for a high pick and turn that guy into a 22-year old stud, then we can reap the benefits this season, and for years to come. Nolan knows what he's doing. Thompson is a great, I mean good scout. Drafting Just Harrell that darn high eliminates him from being able to be called 'great' at scouting.

Question for people here:
Our top 4 WRs are set in stone and we like them. I personally love Ruvell Martin inside the 5-yard line because he goes up and gets the ball at a very high % of the time down there.
DD80 is getting old.... probably will slip a bit next year.....
I like James Jones, and Jordy Nelson. Jennings is a superstar.

Do we draft a WR this year?
We still have Swain on practice quad from last year's draft.

Twiddler
01-07-2009, 01:51 PM
Question for people here:
Our top 4 WRs are set in stone and we like them. I personally love Ruvell Martin inside the 5-yard line because he goes up and gets the ball at a very high % of the time down there.
DD80 is getting old.... probably will slip a bit next year.....
I like James Jones, and Jordy Nelson. Jennings is a superstar.

Do we draft a WR this year?
We still have Swain on practice quad from last year's draft.

Good question. I think there is a chance that we do, but I would think it would be in the later rounds. Then again, I think pretty much nobody thought he would take a WR in the second round last year, but he proved us wrong (although I think that the Jordy pick was a good investment for the future). But I think that he won't use anything higher than a late round pick on a WR this year.

narf029
01-07-2009, 01:56 PM
I've thought of the possibility of drafting a receiver because I want Ramses Barden, even though he doesn't really fit our current personnel. However I say no this year (or hopefully not anyways). Jennings is our superstar, Driver is our go-to-guy for big 3rd downs and everything. Jordy looks like our 3rd guy and should develop into our future possession guy when Driver retires. Jones or Martin are outstanding 4th or 5th guys, not to mention we use Finley as a receiver usually whenever he's in, and we split Lee out in our 5-wide set. Not only are all of the guys mentioned very good at what they do, but they're extremely young. I don't see us adding a receiver this year.

Besides, if we do in fact switch to a 3-4 we will be a little too preoccupied to add any skill players on offense.

PACKmanN
01-07-2009, 04:12 PM
Bring Back Jags!!!

GB12
01-07-2009, 05:11 PM
Question for people here:
Our top 4 WRs are set in stone and we like them. I personally love Ruvell Martin inside the 5-yard line because he goes up and gets the ball at a very high % of the time down there.
DD80 is getting old.... probably will slip a bit next year.....
I like James Jones, and Jordy Nelson. Jennings is a superstar.

Do we draft a WR this year?
We still have Swain on practice quad from last year's draft.I don't really see Donald Driver dropping off yet. He'll be 34 in February, but that's not terrible for a WR. Not making comparisons here but Terrell Owens is 35 and still had a good season, Marvin Harrison was still a top WR when he was 34, Joey Galloway had 3 of his best years at age 33-35. Driver doesn't rely on speed either, which is usually the first thing to go. The kind of receiver he is he can stick around a while. I think he'll be back next year with little to no dropoff and then see him stedily decline starting in 2010. Probably will come close to 1000 for the 6th staight year next season then get around 500 after that which is still good.

That said I could definitely see us drafting a WR. This is what I wrote in the Offseason thread a while ago
In all four drafts since Thompson became our GM we have taken 2 WRs. We have taken one of the two in the second round every year except for 2007 when we took James Jones in the third. Thompson is like the Matt Millen of the second round.

We are pretty well off long term though. Jennings and Nelson with Jones as the #3 should still be one of the better WR corps in the league once Driver retires and I like Martin as a 4.

PackerMidget7
01-07-2009, 07:39 PM
Question for next year... who is the biggest threat against us for the title? Is there one in our division. Somebody once told me winning the NFC North is like being the world's tallest midget. I believe with a little more experience this is the team of the future. Aaron Rogers had a good start last year, and we have new staff coming in. What're your thoughts on what needs to be done to improve?

GB12
01-07-2009, 07:44 PM
I think the Vikings are clearly the biggest competition.

AtariBigby
01-07-2009, 07:56 PM
I think the Vikings are clearly the biggest competition.
Definitely.
They did this well this year with Abbott & Costello playing QB. They can only get better at the QB position in 2009.
I think.

Would love to be wrong though because me likes the Vikings about as much as I like being bitten by a bunch of fire ants, or as much as I like picking up other people's dog crap on my lawn.

AtariBigby
01-07-2009, 08:11 PM
I will be so pissed off if we go straight to a 3-4. Stick to the scheme that our personnel fit.......


Here's the part we disagree on. Now you went on to say "it's not like we don't have good players".
Agreed. True.

But if you say "our personnel fit that scheme so well", then why the hell were they horrible in it this year? Last year they were above average with a totally healthy unit. They weren't anywhere close to great, as witnessed by myself here in the Texas Stadium when they made Tony Romo look like..... well like they made Matt Schuab and Drew Brees look this year. Contrast that to how Romo looked against Pittsburgh and Baltimore coming down the stretch this year. Or how he looked in Philly. If you can get us Jim Johnson, I'm thrilled to go to his 4-3 system. He's proven he can coordinate it.

Excuses are not a 100% valid excuse for this year because the Chargers lost their BEST player Merriman before the season and they are doing fine, the Patriots lost a ton of their players and still did fine. If our system was that fragile that the loss of 1 or 2 good players totally kills the team, then I don't want that system because guys are gonna get hurt. This ain't tiddly winks out there, or baseball.

PACKmanN
01-07-2009, 08:24 PM
Joe Whitt Jr. will likely be named the secondary coach.

don't like that at all.

AtariBigby
01-07-2009, 09:03 PM
don't like that at all.
I found something I agree with you on PACKmanN.
Give me some LeRoy Butler instead. He's watched these guys play for all their time here, knows what works and doesn't make there.

PACKmanN
01-09-2009, 02:49 PM
Moss is interviewing for the Oakland job and a report is saying MM is also interested in Greg Williams for our DC.

Also, I found a stat, Nick Collins leads the team in missed tackles with 17.

mqtirishfan
01-09-2009, 02:54 PM
But if you say "our personnel fit that scheme so well", then why the hell were they horrible in it this year? Last year they were above average with a totally healthy unit.

How long was the unit totally healthy? 2 weeks? I seem to remember Harris and Jenkins going down rather quickly, with Bigby missing most of the season. Then, Barnett went down, and Hawk was slowed by injuries. Then, the DTs were hurt as well.


Excuses are not a 100% valid excuse for this year because the Chargers lost their BEST player Merriman before the season and they are doing fine, the Patriots lost a ton of their players and still did fine. If our system was that fragile that the loss of 1 or 2 good players totally kills the team, then I don't want that system because guys are gonna get hurt. This ain't tiddly winks out there, or baseball.

1 or 2 good players? Try our DE, MLB, CB and SS missing significant time. If one thing was exposed this year, it was our lack of depth; not our ability to play the scheme.

AtariBigby
01-09-2009, 04:31 PM
We didn't miss Al Harris.

You all wanted to replace Barnett before he got hurt anyway in week 9 or 10. He had been having an off year already.

Cullen Jenkins was a big one, and that was week 4. My man Atari Bigby was the biggest one. People have no idea how important a healthy Bigby was to our defense. Compare it from 07 & 08, and he was a difference-maker in the box and knocking off receivers heads.

EvilMonkey
01-09-2009, 04:41 PM
We didn't miss Al Harris.

You all wanted to replace Barnett before he got hurt anyway in week 9 or 10. He had been having an off year already.

Cullen Jenkins was a big one, and that was week 4. My man Atari Bigby was the biggest one. People have no idea how important a healthy Bigby was to our defense. Compare it from 07 & 08, and he was a difference-maker in the box and knocking off receivers heads.

he wouldnt have done anything if he was playing this year. Having a pass rush allowed him to roam around in 07 and make plays. He woulda just had to sit in coverage this year and probably woulda got burned a lot because of it. Lack of pass-rush is the difference-maker.

mqtirishfan
01-09-2009, 04:43 PM
We didn't miss Al Harris.

********. Any time you are forced to shift down your depth chart like that, it makes an impact.


You all wanted to replace Barnett before he got hurt anyway in week 9 or 10. He had been having an off year already.

With who, Hawk? Was anyone seriously on the "bench Barnett" bus?

Cullen Jenkins was a big one, and that was week 4.

I wouldn't consider the Packers D to be embarrassingly bad until about then.

My man Atari Bigby was the biggest one. People have no idea how important a healthy Bigby was to our defense. Compare it from 07 & 08, and he was a difference-maker in the box and knocking off receivers heads.

And he was just one of the guys that was out for an extended period of time.

GB12
01-09-2009, 04:51 PM
We didn't miss Al Harris.

You all wanted to replace Barnett before he got hurt anyway in week 9 or 10. He had been having an off year already.

Cullen Jenkins was a big one, and that was week 4. My man Atari Bigby was the biggest one. People have no idea how important a healthy Bigby was to our defense. Compare it from 07 & 08, and he was a difference-maker in the box and knocking off receivers heads.
Tramon Williams filled in very well during the time Harris was out, but we're still a lot better off having all three of them. Your point there is valid because we weren't hurt by not having him, but just saying.

To put it bluntly, anyone that wanted to replace Barnett is an idiot.

Cullen Jenkins was by far the biggest, not Bigby. The loss of Jenkins killed our defensive line and the whole defense went with it. I am a Bigby supporter and think he was missed as he is a big upgrade from Rouse, but he would not have had the impact that Jenkins does.

GB12
01-09-2009, 04:54 PM
Nick Collins and Charles Woodson were named second team All Pros. Collins was placed right, but I think Woodson should have been first team over Finnegan.

narf029
01-09-2009, 06:57 PM
hello

I agree that Woodson should have been a first teamer, but I wasn't expecting it. I don't think he's getting enough love for playing out of position for some of the season. He didn't play at nearly the same level, and that sapped his season numbers, but I'm not hearing any national love for the team first attitude. I thought Collins had a great year, but I'd be homerrific if I said he was better than Polamalu or Ed Reed. Great year for both guys though.

umphrey
01-10-2009, 06:42 PM
Reading the TT interview from JSOnline, he gave a lot of generic answers but one thing that really stood out was his disappointment in our pass rush and the importance in improving it. I'd be shocked if we didn't bring in some new names on the DL.

bearsfan_51
01-10-2009, 07:21 PM
I can't disagree with the lack of pass rush, but lord almighty you guys got steamrolled in the run this year. Unless Harrell is the answer I think a strong NT is the #1 need of the Packers this year. I'm surprised more isn't being made out of this.

Hawk
01-10-2009, 08:45 PM
I can't disagree with the lack of pass rush, but lord almighty you guys got steamrolled in the run this year. Unless Harrell is the answer I think a strong NT is the #1 need of the Packers this year. I'm surprised more isn't being made out of this.

Haynesworth would be perfect.

AtariBigby
01-10-2009, 08:50 PM
Haynesworth would be perfect.
Yes he would.
But there are a ton of teams who say the same thing, and TT will not outbid everyone for a guy like that. Too bad though. Imagine him and then Everette Brown at #9, throw in Cullen Jenkins, that turns into a great DL instead of horrible one.

GB12
01-10-2009, 09:13 PM
So no one likes Brian Brohm?

princefielder28
01-10-2009, 10:19 PM
So no one likes Brian Brohm?

Unless I missed something, why do you ask that?

nevermind, must be the poll

johbur
01-10-2009, 11:52 PM
So no one likes Brian Brohm?

I love Brian Brohm, and he was a heck of a pick in the second round. He was a great college QB. If he works hard this off-season I'd really like him to take the #2 from Flynn. Flynn is scrappy and I dig that he won the trophy after JaMawcus Wussel, but I envision Brohm being a starter in his career. Imagine if A-Rod's shoulder had been done in, would you rather be preparing for this upcoming season with Flynn or Brohm? I think Brohm needs to work hard to get some things pro-ready and to deal with the bench. Flynn had three years of the bench, so he's used to working from this position. Brohm isn't. I'd like to see Brohm have a crushing, should-we-start-him type of training camp so that other teams start inquiring about what it would take to acquire him. Whether he improves and gets traded or is needed due to injury, I'm really hoping that Brohm gets his stuff together and becomes a legit threat to start.

johbur
01-11-2009, 12:32 AM
I can't disagree with the lack of pass rush, but lord almighty you guys got steamrolled in the run this year. Unless Harrell is the answer I think a strong NT is the #1 need of the Packers this year. I'm surprised more isn't being made out of this.

Oddly, the Bears and Packers gave up the same number of yards per game this year, though the Bears gave up 30 fewer points. The difference is that the Bears were #5 on run defense and Packers were #26, whereas pass defense Packers were #12 and Bears were #30.

The only DT of early R1 merit IMO is Raji, and he's more a teens/late teens guy unless he tests amazingly well at the combine like Ngata, though he could go early as there's little competition against him. Perry not likely to be there where Packers pick in R2, but maybe he or Hood would be there. I'm good with an R2 DT, considering Jolly's legal troubles and Harrell's health troubles.

R1=Orakpo, R2=Hood. Works for me if Williams the DC. Otherwise TT might need to drop to 16 and rectify the Harrell pick with Raji if Nolan the DC.

If by the draft Jolly has his legal troubles taken care of and Harrell anle to participate in off-season workouts, then who knows what Ted does. Too bad he doesn't like going after big fish, as Haynesworth and T-Sizzle are FA.

GB12
01-11-2009, 12:54 AM
I can't disagree with the lack of pass rush, but lord almighty you guys got steamrolled in the run this year. Unless Harrell is the answer I think a strong NT is the #1 need of the Packers this year. I'm surprised more isn't being made out of this.
We need to know what defense we are going to have before we discuss defensive tackles. The only prospects in this draft that fit the defense we have been running are the 2 BC guys. Raji isn't a top 10 pick and Brace seems to be a 3rd rounder.

Boston
01-11-2009, 01:44 AM
I can't disagree with the lack of pass rush, but lord almighty you guys got steamrolled in the run this year. Unless Harrell is the answer I think a strong NT is the #1 need of the Packers this year. I'm surprised more isn't being made out of this.

I guess it really depends on where we go with the defensive coordinator hiring. If it does end up being Nolan, and Orakpo is their, we take him no question. But if we hire a Williams who will more than likely stay with the traditional 4-3, I would not be surprised to see us pick a guy like Raji, who I wouldn't be disappointed in.

Kampman - Pickett - Raji - Jenkins

That would be a dominant line against the run, and it would really free our linebackers up to make plays.

PACKmanN
01-11-2009, 03:29 AM
I can't disagree with the lack of pass rush, but lord almighty you guys got steamrolled in the run this year. Unless Harrell is the answer I think a strong NT is the #1 need of the Packers this year. I'm surprised more isn't being made out of this.

sure, but I wouldn't reach for one in the first. I would rather try with Harrell and possible fail again then take Raji with the 9th pick.

umphrey
01-11-2009, 04:16 AM
I like the DT group of Pickett Jolly Harrell Cole way more than what our pass rush looks like. Not to mention bringing in a DE of any sort allows Jenkins to play tackle more. Next year we get Harrell Jenkins and Barnett back to help against the run but our pass rush is gonna be just as bad without improvements. Also I think we are obligated to give Harrell one more year.

AtariBigby
01-11-2009, 08:05 AM
We have to and we will give Harrell another year. We have no choice.
We'd all like him in the lineup. He has talent, and the dude his huge. Naturally large.

Staying healthy for him though seems as hard as sending a man to Mars. Can it be done? Sure. But when? For Harrell's sake, and perhaps TT's, it better be in 2009.

AtariBigby
01-11-2009, 08:07 AM
When did 2 people choose Matt Flynn as better than Rodgers?
Rodgers debut season as starting QB was one of the best statistically ever for an NFL QB.
Must be Bears or Vikings fans that chose Flynn.

princefielder28
01-11-2009, 10:02 AM
Interesting article today in the Green Bay Press Gazette

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090110/PKR07/90110030/1058/PKR01&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL

GB12
01-11-2009, 11:46 AM
When did 2 people choose Matt Flynn as better than Rodgers?
Rodgers debut season as starting QB was one of the best statistically ever for an NFL QB.
Must be Bears or Vikings fans that chose Flynn.
It wasn't a serious poll as the answer is quite obvious. I was just trying out changing the poll.

Yatta!
01-11-2009, 11:47 AM
It wasn't a serious poll as the answer is quite obvious. I was just trying out changing the poll.

Outrage. The orginal poll was a classic.

PackerLegend
01-11-2009, 12:47 PM
Interesting article today in the Green Bay Press Gazette

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090110/PKR07/90110030/1058/PKR01&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL

O ya cutting Tracy White that was pretty stupid. Didnt he talk to other teams when he was a free agent and then we cut him after he decided to sign with us. Thompson has made some good moves but some are pretty bad. Hopefully this year he brings in somebody big. And we sure in hell better not draft another WR in round 1-6

GB12
01-11-2009, 01:09 PM
Interesting article today in the Green Bay Press Gazette

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090110/PKR07/90110030/1058/PKR01&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL
Not very interesting. Just another writer catering to the Ted Thompson hate. What else is new? It's not even a good one.

Thompson then made a $6 million blunder when he kept Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila on the opening-day roster. It didnít take long to figure out the aging KGB had nothing left, and the Packers cut him at mid-season but were obligated to pay his full salary. Thatís a lot of wasted cash, but worse, the line was left in shambles with no depth. Thompson failed to provide enough manpower at one of the most important positions, and the Packers paid the price with several late-game defensive collapses. He whines about the lack of DL and then says we made a blunder by not cutting our only pass specialist. At the time it was not clear cut that KGB wouldn't return to his 2007 form. The money is really a non issue. We had plenty of cap space, the fact that we had to pay him more because we didn't pay him more didn't hurt us at all. Then in the same paragraph he says, "but worse, the line was left in shambles with no depth". So now he didn't want us to cut him? Make up your mind.



What could Thompson have been thinking when he traded back six spots and out of the first round last April? This is no knock on Jordy Nelson, who was a serviceable No. 3 or No. 4 receiver and was selected with the 36th overall pick. But Thompson needed to bolster his defense, and end Phillip Merling and safety Kenny Phillips were still on the board when the Packers were holding their original No. 30 pick. Thompson has virtually ignored the defense in the last two drafts, devoting just five of 20 picks to that side of the ball with no starters in the bunch. His penchant for trading down and accumulating extra picks worked early in his tenure when Thompson was rebuilding the roster. But now the Packers need some immediate impact, which means picking as high in the draft as possible.
I don't know what he could have been thinking, but he was right. This is a very poor attempt at attacking Thompson. He suggests that we should have drafted a DE or S, but at the time of the draft those weren't high needs anyway. We didn't know Cullen Jenkins and Atari Bigby would be injured. Phillips is a free safety anyway, where we have Nick Collins who is a 2nd team all pro. As for Merling he is a big run stuffing DE, not the pass rusher we needed. He also didn't do much for the Dolphins this year and only started two games. He says, "But now the Packers need some immediate impact, which means picking as high in the draft as possible" there is so much wrong with that statement that I'm not even going to start with that, but I'd like to know who that immediate impact would have been. None of the defensive players between 30 and 36 would have been a better pick and the only one with you can make a case for between 30 and our original second (60) is Quentin Groves who as a pass rusher in Jacksonville only had 2.5 sacks. If he was going to attack the fact that we traded out of the first round Dustin Keller would have been his best argument, and even that's not a good one. Keller only had 169 more yards for the same average as Nelson and 1 more touchdown in significantly more playing time. He offers next to nothing as a blocker so you can't use that. Hell, Nelson might be a better blocker than Keller. Yeah Keller is a tight end not a WR, but as a defense if he's on the field you expect him to go out on a route when he is in anyway. I'd rather have Nelson.

Any excuse for not having Ryan Grant signed by the start of training camp is a bad one. Grantís agent publicly blasted the Packers last summer for their nonchalant approach to negotiations, and who could blame him? Right or wrong, the Packers concluded following the 2007 season that Grant was their go-to running back for the foreseeable future. So instead of dilly-dallying around, Thompson needed to get him signed. Instead, Grant arrived a week late, predictably suffered an injury, and then was slow out of the gate. Grant needed the full benefits of the off-season program, training camp and the exhibition season. Management is supposed to put players in the best position to succeed, but Thompson failed to deliver. That's funny because not too long ago they were saying that Thompson made a mistake by signing Grant. They said he vastly overpaid and caved into negotiations.

As long as they are bashing Thompson people will read and enjoy it so I guess it doesn't matter what crap is written.

TitleTown088
01-11-2009, 02:55 PM
I Agree GB12. All those writers have such an anti-TT agenda, and they fail to ever look past their bias.

RyanBraun8
01-11-2009, 03:00 PM
Not very interesting. Just another writer catering to the Ted Thompson hate. What else is new? It's not even a good one.

He whines about the lack of DL and then says we made a blunder by not cutting our only pass specialist. At the time it was not clear cut that KGB wouldn't return to his 2007 form. The money is really a non issue. We had plenty of cap space, the fact that we had to pay him more because we didn't pay him more didn't hurt us at all. Then in the same paragraph he says, "but worse, the line was left in shambles with no depth". So now he didn't want us to cut him? Make up your mind.


I don't know what he could have been thinking, but he was right. This is a very poor attempt at attacking Thompson. He suggests that we should have drafted a DE or S, but at the time of the draft those weren't high needs anyway. We didn't know Cullen Jenkins and Atari Bigby would be injured. Phillips is a free safety anyway, where we have Nick Collins who is a 2nd team all pro. As for Merling he is a big run stuffing DE, not the pass rusher we needed. He also didn't do much for the Dolphins this year and only started two games. He says, "But now the Packers need some immediate impact, which means picking as high in the draft as possible" there is so much wrong with that statement that I'm not even going to start with that, but I'd like to know who that immediate impact would have been. None of the defensive players between 30 and 36 would have been a better pick and the only one with you can make a case for between 30 and our original second (60) is Quentin Groves who as a pass rusher in Jacksonville only had 2.5 sacks. If he was going to attack the fact that we traded out of the first round Dustin Keller would have been his best argument, and even that's not a good one. Keller only had 169 more yards for the same average as Nelson and 1 more touchdown in significantly more playing time. He offers next to nothing as a blocker so you can't use that. Hell, Nelson might be a better blocker than Keller. Yeah Keller is a tight end not a WR, but as a defense if he's on the field you expect him to go out on a route when he is in anyway. I'd rather have Nelson.

That's funny because not too long ago they were saying that Thompson made a mistake by signing Grant. They said he vastly overpaid and caved into negotiations.

As long as they are bashing Thompson people will read and enjoy it so I guess it doesn't matter what crap is written.

agreed 110% I really didn't like the article. I'm not a TT lover or TT hater, he does good things and he makes big mistakes. But this guys bashin him is an idiot and is simply wrong in most his attepts of making a good arguement. Yeah TT haters will love it and give them more reason to complain but they need to grow up a little bit.

Ryan Grant's contract issue aguement made me laugh, the KGB one even more. I mean Grant wanted to much for to long after only one good season in his career, TT didn't give in and its not TT's fault that Grant couldn't figure out how to stay healthy. He should up and got hurt, its called take resonsibility and keep yourself ready for the season if your stubborn enough to hold out. Dont put it on TT.

Then the KGB pick a side genious! Dont complain about us having him on the team in the 1st place then complain that we didnt have depth after we let him go. You don't cut a guy in August when he has been reliable and one of your best pass rushers for years, not to forget one of the faces of the franchise. Money? how did that hurt us? Was there a huge stud FA during the season to pick up??

The other part about the Draft stuff is rediculous because we didn't need a DE!!! haha we had one of the best d-lines last season. Had a great rotation and everything. Then we lost Williams, KGB and Jenkins that hurt. Merling isn't special, I was high on Bigby and actually wanted to replace collins because i have to close my eyes everytime he goes for a tackle because eighter he misses or gets hurt but had no prob with trading down for Jordy

narf029
01-11-2009, 03:58 PM
I'm alright with anti-TT writing as long as it's well written. I personally love TT, but I'm open to reading about why people hate him. This is just dumb though. We made a mistake by keeping KGB, yet we should have drafted a defensive player like Philip Merling in the first? I think he's kind of forgetting the circumstances of the draft. I personally thought we needed the best man-coverage corner in the draft, but then Tramon Williams played well enough this year to prove I was dumb. As of now I've mostly just accepted that TT is better than I am.

AtariBigby
01-11-2009, 06:44 PM
....we should have drafted a defensive player like Philip Merling in the first...........As of now I've mostly just accepted that TT is better than I am.
That's fantastic.
But what we all need is for TT to be better than the Giants and Eagles and Vikings and Bears and Cowboys and Saints and Bucs and Panthers GMs.

So far, despite the nice finds on Collins and Jennings over his 4 years drafting, he has not been better than those guys.

tjsunstein
01-11-2009, 06:49 PM
That's fantastic.
But what we all need is for TT to be better than the Giants and Eagles and Vikings and Bears and Cowboys and Saints and Bucs and Panthers GMs.

So far, despite the nice finds on Collins and Jennings over his 4 years drafting, he has not been better than those guys.

He's rebuilt our offensive line and has given us depth at many positions. I think Thompson should make a play at some FAs this year but up until this year I haven't had a problem with the personel moves.

TitleTown088
01-11-2009, 07:26 PM
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/37317889.html Never saw this mentioned.

Moss getting interviewed by the raiders.

GB12
01-11-2009, 07:29 PM
That happend a while ago. I think it was mentioned, but maybe not.

AtariBigby
01-11-2009, 08:19 PM
He's rebuilt our offensive line and has given us depth at many positions. .......but up until this year I haven't had a problem with the personel moves.
I guess I have higher expectations that you do.
I don't like our OL. I don't see depth there. I see crappy depth there.
I don't see depth on our DL. I see crappy depth there. Those 2 positions are the meat & potatoes of the NFL.

You can get by with changing pieces at RB (see Steelers this year and Colts in 2006) and DB (see Giants last year).
You can get by with shaky WRs (see NE in 2001-2004).... but if you have patchwork OLs and DLs, your ******.

Whistler6
01-11-2009, 09:49 PM
Thomspon = depth, depth, depth.. If it was up to him, he would be 4 deep at every position. He needs to let go of this depth idea and make a play for a couple of game-breakers / game-changers. Yes, "solid", "consistent", etc players help the team, but they don't take over games. Idk

PACKmanN
01-11-2009, 09:51 PM
our lack of depth on the d-line hurt us when we lost some starters....

neko4
01-11-2009, 10:26 PM
I guess I have higher expectations that you do.
I don't like our OL. I don't see depth there. I see crappy depth there.
I don't see depth on our DL. I see crappy depth there. Those 2 positions are the meat & potatoes of the NFL.

You can get by with changing pieces at RB (see Steelers this year and Colts in 2006) and DB (see Giants last year).
You can get by with shaky WRs (see NE in 2001-2004).... but if you have patchwork OLs and DLs, your ******.

Our DL depth wasnt even a problem until this year due to injuries (Jenkins, KGB) and our OL before TT was worse than it is with TT.

narf029
01-11-2009, 10:28 PM
That's fantastic.
But what we all need is for TT to be better than the Giants and Eagles and Vikings and Bears and Cowboys and Saints and Bucs and Panthers GMs.


I resent the statement that Ted Thompson is worse than Rick Spielman.

You know how ESPN will snatch up the worst GM in the league shortly after they got fired from a 1 win team, so they can have those guys analyze games? That used to be Rick Spielman.

tjsunstein
01-12-2009, 12:15 AM
I guess I have higher expectations that you do.
I don't like our OL. I don't see depth there. I see crappy depth there.
I don't see depth on our DL. I see crappy depth there. Those 2 positions are the meat & potatoes of the NFL.

You can get by with changing pieces at RB (see Steelers this year and Colts in 2006) and DB (see Giants last year).
You can get by with shaky WRs (see NE in 2001-2004).... but if you have patchwork OLs and DLs, your ******.

It's not like TT isn't trying to ignore our lines. Before this year I think it would be safe to say that you were satisfied with our depth at DL and our OL was looking promising but things happen. We have a couple young versatile guys on the offensive line that once settled in will mesh good together and aging tackles and that should be taken care on the first day come the draft. Our D-Line was hurt - no pun intended - by injuries to Jenkins and the steep downfall of KGB. Justin Harrell is still MIA but I still have faith in him. Kampman could only do so much with Pickett next to him. It's no secret that we need to address our lines but up until this season you can't say you had a problem with the way they were being built, can you?

johbur
01-12-2009, 01:23 AM
our lack of depth on the d-line hurt us when we lost some starters....

Which falls squarely on TT's shoulders. The DL is his baby. He traded Corey Williams and his seven interior sacks a year to Cleveland (which I did not favor), drafted an injured schmoe at DT that has yet to get healthy, has not brought in a DL other than Pickett in FA and didn't address the depth on the line and has three UDFA that he's been carrying on the roster, with only Cole being worth anything on defense, though Hunter there for ST.

Now, TT has finally addressed the O-line, which has fine depth IMO, but he needs to take care of the defense. His FAs at strong safety were shoddy and cheap. Look at the how built link (http://www.packers.com/team/how_built/) on Packers.com. It is pretty telling how he's missed on defensive players a lot more than he's missed on offensive players in the draft. He's actually better with defensive FA than he is in drafting defense, IMO.

For TT, Hawk was a no-brainer and Collins is the only drafted starter on the team if Jenkins comes back from injury and Jolly goes out due to legal. Compared to how well he's taken care of the offense, that's pretty weak. It'd be nice to see the defense addressed like he's addressed the offense, though if he brings in a couple of quality defensive FAs and actually drafts some defenders that don't take three years to blossom due to adjusting from Bethine-Cookman or Mother Teresa's Sisters of The Blind and Poor University, then the defense could rebound back to 2007.

Sadly, with the DC in the air and the DL situation in the air, it's tought to say who to draft or what FA to go after.

He needs to realize that Michael Montgomery, Jason Hunter, Justin Harrell (I REALLY wish I was wrong on this. Every game he was inactive I just thought back to that Packers fan youtube video...), Alfred Malone, Fred Bledsoe and Anthony Toribio are just NOT going to cut it. Toss in unknown injury situations with Cullen Jenkins and Kenny Pettway (who I thought looked great until he got hurt) and Johnny Jolly possibly being suspended and/or in prison, and our DL needs some work!

PACKmanN
01-12-2009, 10:45 AM
Which falls squarely on TT's shoulders. The DL is his baby. He traded Corey Williams and his seven interior sacks a year to Cleveland (which I did not favor), drafted an injured schmoe at DT that has yet to get healthy, has not brought in a DL other than Pickett in FA and didn't address the depth on the line and has three UDFA that he's been carrying on the roster, with only Cole being worth anything on defense, though Hunter there for ST.
he attempted many of times of bring guys in, its not his choice that they choose a another team...the are reasons as to why some free agents don't want to sign with us, ask Woodson. And I wouldn't have been in favor of giving Williams what he got from the Browns, which btw, he having a terrible season.

Now, TT has finally addressed the O-line, which has fine depth IMO, but he needs to take care of the defense. His FAs at strong safety were shoddy and cheap. Look at the how built link (http://www.packers.com/team/how_built/) on Packers.com. It is pretty telling how he's missed on defensive players a lot more than he's missed on offensive players in the draft. He's actually better with defensive FA than he is in drafting defense, IMO.
some of the defensive guys he drafted where excepted to have plenty of talent and upside(Hawk, Lee, Collins, Rouse, Blackmon, Thompson.) and most of those guys had have successful seasons.

For TT, Hawk was a no-brainer and Collins is the only drafted starter on the team if Jenkins comes back from injury and Jolly goes out due to legal. Compared to how well he's taken care of the offense, that's pretty weak. It'd be nice to see the defense addressed like he's addressed the offense, though if he brings in a couple of quality defensive FAs and actually drafts some defenders that don't take three years to blossom due to adjusting from Bethine-Cookman or Mother Teresa's Sisters of The Blind and Poor University, then the defense could rebound back to 2007.
you say this now, but most of the guys were no-brainers and many, if not all thought they were going to be taken by the Packers.
Sadly, with the DC in the air and the DL situation in the air, it's tought to say who to draft or what FA to go after.
well he went after Rocky Bernard a couple of years ago but Rocky decide to resign with the Seahawks...
He needs to realize that Michael Montgomery, Jason Hunter, Justin Harrell (I REALLY wish I was wrong on this. Every game he was inactive I just thought back to that Packers fan youtube video...), Alfred Malone, Fred Bledsoe and Anthony Toribio are just NOT going to cut it. Toss in unknown injury situations with Cullen Jenkins and Kenny Pettway (who I thought looked great until he got hurt) and Johnny Jolly possibly being suspended and/or in prison, and our DL needs some work!ok...give the guy an off-season to address the d-line, don't be surpirsed to see Rocky Bernard as a Packer.

AtariBigby
01-12-2009, 12:17 PM
You say it's not TT's fault that he can't lure in the FA's. You say part of the issue is Green Bay itself, as Charles Woodson has said. Seems like a taboo subject on boards like this, but I know what you're referring to. Very true.

However, there's also something else behind whey TT fails sometimes. Ask Saints RB Aaron Stecker about that, Wisconsin native. It's also a taboo subject, which related to TT's, well, lack of wife I guess I can say.

That aside, he's the opposite of charismatic, charming. With the draft, it doesn't matter because those young kids are usually just happy to be drafted. They have no choice who picks them.
But when it comes to free agency, if there are multiple buyers, it usually comes down to money, but other times it will be the sales job and that falls on Thompson and his charm.

Ryan Pickett is the only one who TT has sold in 4 years, who had other comparable options when he left St Louis and came to Green Bay. Woodson had NO other teams offer him a CB spot.

TT's aloof personality has not helped this franchise. And his college scouting evaluations, supposed to be his forte, have certainly not made up for those shortcomings. It is what it is.

PACKmanN
01-12-2009, 02:53 PM
You say it's not TT's fault that he can't lure in the FA's. You say part of the issue is Green Bay itself, as Charles Woodson has said. Seems like a taboo subject on boards like this, but I know what you're referring to. Very true.

However, there's also something else behind whey TT fails sometimes. Ask Saints RB Aaron Stecker about that, Wisconsin native. It's also a taboo subject, which related to TT's, well, lack of wife I guess I can say.

That aside, he's the opposite of charismatic, charming. With the draft, it doesn't matter because those young kids are usually just happy to be drafted. They have no choice who picks them.
But when it comes to free agency, if there are multiple buyers, it usually comes down to money, but other times it will be the sales job and that falls on Thompson and his charm.

Ryan Pickett is the only one who TT has sold in 4 years, who had other comparable options when he left St Louis and came to Green Bay. Woodson had NO other teams offer him a CB spot.

TT's aloof personality has not helped this franchise. And his college scouting evaluations, supposed to be his forte, have certainly not made up for those shortcomings. It is what it is.

If the reason is that players don't want to come to Green Bay because of his lack of wife then those players are compete morons.

Woodson said that he question some of the things that were said that happened in Green Bay. Social life, racial hate, and among other things that have prevented players signing with us.

Btw, can you name me some players who you wouldn't have taken in the spots that TT has taken them in...people always question his picks yet he has had a lot of success. **waits for the Harrell pick as the only reason.**

AtariBigby
01-12-2009, 04:38 PM
Btw, can you name me some players who you wouldn't have taken in the spots that TT has taken them in...people always question his picks yet he has had a lot of success. **waits for the Harrell pick as the only reason.**
I wanted Randy Moss, but I was told by some that he was washed up, had lost his speed in Oakland. Had no desire left.

I have to admit something though (shhhhhh). Two of the picks that I was happiest about when selected were: Will Blackmon and Abdul Hodge, both in the 2006 draft. And I liked his pick of Cory Rogers.
Two of the 3 never contributed a thing to the team.

Also, of course I hated the Harrell pick, but what I was maddest about was that TT didn't cash in on the Browns, who were begging to trade up to our spot to take the free-falling Brady Quinn, who they almost took at #3 but instead went with Joe Thomas.

If Justin Harrell really was the BPA at that point (#16), then 2007 was a horrible draft and TT could have cashed in by getting the Browns #2 pick and #1 pick the following year.
Whoever that #2 pick would have been better than Harrell PLUS there's a chance he could haev had Harrell with the #2 pick, and still had an extra #1 pick the following year like Dallas did when they took Felix Jones and Mike Jenkins.

Guys taken after that spot in the 2nd round from the Cleveland pick (#4 in that round) were:
#6- Zach Miller, TE
#7- Justin Blaclock, OG, Atl
#10- Tony Ugoh, OT, Indy
#14- Lamar Woodley, LB, Pit
#16- Justin Durant, LB, Jac
All of these guys would have helped a helluva lot more than Harrell has, and they could have been had for the Browns 2nd round pick.

Look, nobody is perfect. Not even you, not TT.
But if you step back and assess TT's body of work now over 4 years, overall it's about a C+ at best. Sugarcoat it as you'd like, but as he says, the proof is in the pudding.
1 good year out of 4 is below average.

narf029
01-12-2009, 04:55 PM
It's easy to say he did a bad job when you look back on drafts like that, but realistically, would we have taken Justin Blalock, a massive OG that doesn't fit our ZBS? Would we have taken Tony Ugoh when we had 2 pro bowl caliber OT's in their prime? LaMarr Woodley, a 3-4 OLB that doesn't fit our team? Justin Durant would have been an even bigger reach than Harrell was.

AtariBigby
01-12-2009, 06:19 PM
It's easy to say he did a bad job when you look back on drafts like that, but realistically, would we have taken Justin Blalock, a massive OG that doesn't fit our ZBS?
Valid point on the darned ZBS. It's a shame we have to pass on good OL because they don't fit our tricky system. The ironic thing is, our best 2 OL have also not been "physical fits" for the ZBS.

Boston
01-12-2009, 06:49 PM
I wanted Randy Moss, but I was told by some that he was washed up, had lost his speed in Oakland. Had no desire left.

I have to admit something though (shhhhhh). Two of the picks that I was happiest about when selected were: Will Blackmon and Abdul Hodge, both in the 2006 draft. And I liked his pick of Cory Rogers.
Two of the 3 never contributed a thing to the team.

Also, of course I hated the Harrell pick, but what I was maddest about was that TT didn't cash in on the Browns, who were begging to trade up to our spot to take the free-falling Brady Quinn, who they almost took at #3 but instead went with Joe Thomas.

If Justin Harrell really was the BPA at that point (#16), then 2007 was a horrible draft and TT could have cashed in by getting the Browns #2 pick and #1 pick the following year.
Whoever that #2 pick would have been better than Harrell PLUS there's a chance he could haev had Harrell with the #2 pick, and still had an extra #1 pick the following year like Dallas did when they took Felix Jones and Mike Jenkins.

Guys taken after that spot in the 2nd round from the Cleveland pick (#4 in that round) were:
#6- Zach Miller, TE
#7- Justin Blaclock, OG, Atl
#10- Tony Ugoh, OT, Indy
#14- Lamar Woodley, LB, Pit
#16- Justin Durant, LB, Jac
All of these guys would have helped a helluva lot more than Harrell has, and they could have been had for the Browns 2nd round pick.

Look, nobody is perfect. Not even you, not TT.
But if you step back and assess TT's body of work now over 4 years, overall it's about a C+ at best. Sugarcoat it as you'd like, but as he says, the proof is in the pudding.
1 good year out of 4 is below average.

God you are annoying. Everything you say is based on hindsight and an overall lack of knowledge. Really not a good combination. You do realize that not every pick made by a general manager is going to warrant an all-star? I want to make sure you understand this before I waste anymore of my time. I guess knowing the fact that not every player develops completely in their first year would be essential knowledge for you to have as well.

Guys like Nelson, Lee, Sitton, and Finley were all drafted knowing they would take more that 1 year to develop fully. When you have a team that just went 13-3, and was an overtime away from the Super Bowl, you would think they could handle that. You seem to not be able to get over the Harrell pick, and yeah, maybe it's not what we needed at the time, but had it not been for the injury before he had been picked, and the fact that he probably declared a year to late, he could have been a top ten, maybe even top five pick.

But no, keep looking back and telling me what you would have done if you were TT after knowing how the first year of every rookie panned out and what they were able to accomplish. Because really, it doesn't mean jack ****.

AtariBigby
01-12-2009, 07:53 PM
God you are annoying. Everything you say is based on hindsight and an overall lack of knowledge.
When I give you the blueprint going forward, you disagree. You say "ah naw, can't do that"......
Hindsight is history. We can't change it.
But what we need to do is LEARN from it.

I'm telling you right now we should clone the Steelers defense. Will it be perfected overnight? Of course not. But better to work on the best than to work on something mediocre or decent or just good.

Don't be afraid of a challenge.

Whistler6
01-12-2009, 08:05 PM
noo Mike Nolan, and looks like no Gregg Williams if he gets what he wants. Bummer-town

Boston
01-12-2009, 08:50 PM
When I give you the blueprint going forward, you disagree. You say "ah naw, can't do that"......
Hindsight is history. We can't change it.
But what we need to do is LEARN from it.

I'm telling you right now we should clone the Steelers defense. Will it be perfected overnight? Of course not. But better to work on the best than to work on something mediocre or decent or just good.

Don't be afraid of a challenge.

Awesome. Now I know I wasted 5 minutes of my time...

PACKmanN
01-12-2009, 08:58 PM
I wanted Randy Moss, but I was told by some that he was washed up, had lost his speed in Oakland. Had no desire left.

I have to admit something though (shhhhhh). Two of the picks that I was happiest about when selected were: Will Blackmon and Abdul Hodge, both in the 2006 draft. And I liked his pick of Cory Rogers.
Two of the 3 never contributed a thing to the team.

Also, of course I hated the Harrell pick, but what I was maddest about was that TT didn't cash in on the Browns, who were begging to trade up to our spot to take the free-falling Brady Quinn, who they almost took at #3 but instead went with Joe Thomas.

If Justin Harrell really was the BPA at that point (#16), then 2007 was a horrible draft and TT could have cashed in by getting the Browns #2 pick and #1 pick the following year.
Whoever that #2 pick would have been better than Harrell PLUS there's a chance he could haev had Harrell with the #2 pick, and still had an extra #1 pick the following year like Dallas did when they took Felix Jones and Mike Jenkins.

Guys taken after that spot in the 2nd round from the Cleveland pick (#4 in that round) were:
#6- Zach Miller, TE
#7- Justin Blaclock, OG, Atl
#10- Tony Ugoh, OT, Indy
#14- Lamar Woodley, LB, Pit
#16- Justin Durant, LB, Jac
All of these guys would have helped a helluva lot more than Harrell has, and they could have been had for the Browns 2nd round pick.

Look, nobody is perfect. Not even you, not TT.
But if you step back and assess TT's body of work now over 4 years, overall it's about a C+ at best. Sugarcoat it as you'd like, but as he says, the proof is in the pudding.
1 good year out of 4 is below average.
provide my point, all you use was the Justin Harrell pick. I call TT draft a B+, if you can get a franchise QB and WR then to get a couple of more picks to build a team, when he started, was a compete mess, then he does deserve to get a B+. Remember, the team he took over was old and in cap mess. I thank Thompson for what he did.

tjsunstein
01-12-2009, 09:05 PM
When I give you the blueprint going forward, you disagree. You say "ah naw, can't do that"......
Hindsight is history. We can't change it.
But what we need to do is LEARN from it.

I'm telling you right now we should clone the Steelers defense. Will it be perfected overnight? Of course not. But better to work on the best than to work on something mediocre or decent or just good.

Don't be afraid of a challenge.

Thanks for the blueprint, defensive coordinator. Not much is gonna change with you talking about it for days and days here. If they think its the best thing for the team then they will try to make it happen. If not, then so be it. How about you fax your plan over to the Packers front office before they hire someone other than you to take control of our defense. Lets talk about what is actually happening rather than your hypothetical situations. What are you gonna say when we hire a guy that runs a 4-3? That he isn't the best guy for the job? We should actually start cloning the 2007 Patriots offense since that was the best instead of using what he have at hand.

narf029
01-12-2009, 09:12 PM
The Cleveland Browns thought it was a good idea to clone the Patriots defense. That worked for them.

The San Francisco 49ers thought it was a good idea to clone the Ravens defense. That worked for them.

The only person in the NFL that can consistently build a defense similar to any other team is Bill Parcells, and he can clone his old defenses. I give him all the credit in the world for that.

We need to get over the fact that the Steelers had the best defense in the league this year. Building a defense of that style and that quality would take at least 5 years. The players on the Steelers are outstanding, and their talent searchers have been looking for players that fit the Steelers schemes for as long as their careers have been. The Packers have what they have. They have a lot of good players. The defense is maybe 2 or 3 good players and one good coach away from being one of the best defenses in the league. Why don't we just continue what we've been working on, and eventually have people in message boards say "We need to clone the Packers defense."

PACKmanN
01-12-2009, 10:12 PM
The Cleveland Browns thought it was a good idea to clone the Patriots defense. That worked for them.

The San Francisco 49ers thought it was a good idea to clone the Ravens defense. That worked for them.

The only person in the NFL that can consistently build a defense similar to any other team is Bill Parcells, and he can clone his old defenses. I give him all the credit in the world for that.

We need to get over the fact that the Steelers had the best defense in the league this year. Building a defense of that style and that quality would take at least 5 years. The players on the Steelers are outstanding, and their talent searchers have been looking for players that fit the Steelers schemes for as long as their careers have been. The Packers have what they have. They have a lot of good players. The defense is maybe 2 or 3 good players and one good coach away from being one of the best defenses in the league. Why don't we just continue what we've been working on, and eventually have people in message boards say "We need to clone the Packers defense."
agree 100% about the Ravens post, if you want their defense you need to hire Newsome. He built that defense, the coaching staff is living of that defense.

AtariBigby
01-13-2009, 08:10 AM
Remember, the team he took over was old and in cap mess. I thank Thompson for what he did.
That's true, but that was 4 years ago.

The past 2 off-seasons, plus this one, this team has been way under the cap.
But he didn't utilize free agency because he thinks he can draft better than everyone else. And obviously he hasn't. Look at his last 2 drafts. Where are the impact players, to go along with the 2 years worth of free agents (Frank Walker & Brandon Chillar)?

Answers please.

AtariBigby
01-13-2009, 08:12 AM
We should actually start cloning the 2007 Patriots offense since that was the best instead of using what he have at hand.
Dude, that offense was because of Randy Moss. And there were a lot of us fans who were begging for Thompson to take him on a silver platter. But TT is God, he didn't want to do it because Favre DID want it. What do I know?

Chief49er
01-13-2009, 10:08 AM
Does Hawk play the WILL or SAM position?

Thanks

rumfinator
01-13-2009, 10:16 AM
Does Hawk play the WILL or SAM position?

Thanks

Will is his slated position, but because of injuries he played all three positions this year.

Chief49er
01-13-2009, 10:17 AM
Will is his slated position, but because of injuries he played all three positions this year.

The Packers had a lot of injured LB's this year?

Seems like a draft need.

What do you think of Sintim in the 2nd round? I know he plays the 3-4 but he should be able to play the SAM position.

Yatta!
01-13-2009, 11:30 AM
We have a solid core of Hawk, Barnett (who was the biggest lost to the LB corps), Poppinga and Chillar. LB depth could be upgraded but its not a huge need.

DL and OL are by far our most pressing needs and should both be addressed on Day 1.

Check out the threads on the #9 pick or the offseason discussion for our thoughts on the draft.

Chief49er
01-13-2009, 11:32 AM
We have a solid core of Hawk, Barnett (who was the biggest lost to the LB corps), Poppinga and Chillar. LB depth could be upgraded but its not a huge need.

DL and OL are by far our most pressing needs and should both be addressed on Day 1.

Check out the threads on the #9 pick or the offseason discussion for our thoughts on the draft.

So Hawk plays WILL and Barnett is your MLB, which guy plays SAM?

rumfinator
01-13-2009, 11:35 AM
So Hawk plays WILL and Barnett is your MLB, which guy plays SAM?

A mix of Poppinga and Chillar

drowe
01-13-2009, 11:55 AM
this should be in the NFL forum.


just kidding dude.

narf029
01-13-2009, 12:39 PM
Keep in mind no team in the NFL offered a 3rd round pick for Moss. The Packers would have had to give up a 3rd rounder. Yet Thompson is the only stupid GM in the league?

Also, the reason we are way below cap is so we can extend our current stars with awful contracts. I personally think we should focus on locking Greg Jennings down for the next 5 or 6 years before we focus on getting a superstar free agent. I think we should focus on locking Nick Collins down before focusing on superstar free agents.

AtariBigby
01-13-2009, 01:00 PM
Jennings and Collins are very good players, and we will lock them up.
But they are under contract for a full season yet.
The Patriots also had some fine players too, but were able to add Moss.
I don't think they regret it.

Does TT regret not taking him, or taking Harrell a round too high, or cutting Ryan at the last minute, or regret trading Corey Williams, or cutting Stock's best special teams player Tracy White, etc.?

narf029
01-13-2009, 01:08 PM
Again, with Moss. We were the closest team to getting him. We were offering the 2nd most in the league, so you could say 30 teams were stupider than we were that offseason. We didn't get him is because the Patriots had a higher 4th round pick that they could offer because of a trade they'd made earlier (with I think the 49ers?). As far as cutting Ryan, that was because Stock had a love affair with Frost, and he went to Thompson to tell him to get him.

AtariBigby
01-13-2009, 01:33 PM
Again, with Moss. We were the closest team to getting him. We were offering the 2nd most in the league, so you could say 30 teams were stupider than we were that offseason. We didn't get him is because the Patriots had a higher 4th round pick that they could offer because of a trade they'd made earlier (with I think the 49ers?). As far as cutting Ryan, that was because Stock had a love affair with Frost, and he went to Thompson to tell him to get him.


The Moss>Packers thing was 100% engineered by Favre/Bus Cook/Randy Moss. It couldn't have been any easier for TT, and what a bargain. I mean think about the pick: He drafted WR Corey Rodgers with the same round pick.
If you don't believe TT has a gigantic ego, that he would intentionally not do a deal because it was Favre (merely a player, his employee) who masterminded it, then you've not been in the business world as much as I have. CEO's, GM's, a lot of those guys are the biggest *****holes in the world. Remember, TT had Randy Moss and Tony Gonzalez on a silver platter, it could have gotten done for a 3rd rounder and a 4th rounder, maybe a throw in late pick. That's not paying a lot, if say you wanted to win in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and not just 4 years down the road.

As for ST coach Stock, who was always had bad special teams (#32 overall in 2005 & 2006), here's more from Stock on the punter issue with Frost & Ryan: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35336559.html

GB12
01-13-2009, 03:49 PM
You didn't need to make a new thread about this (or 2). You have a simple question that could have easily been answered in our general discussion thread which is where I'm moving it now.

The Packers had a lot of injured LB's this year?

Seems like a draft need.

What do you think of Sintim in the 2nd round? I know he plays the 3-4 but he should be able to play the SAM position.No. Not really a draft need. Barnett and Hawk are set in the lineup and we just gave both Poppinga and Chillar contracts last offseason. I think that Chillar will take a hold of the final spot next year and be a fine starter. Poppinga then would be one of the better back ups in the league having started for us the previous 3 seasons. Desmond Bishop then has the 5th spot as a reserve LB/special teamer. I doubt we take a linebacker at all in the draft. The LB play was dissapointing this past season, but if Barnett can return to his usual form and we improve the defensive line we should be in pretty good shape.

Will is his slated position, but because of injuries he played all three positions this year.
Hawk played WLB until Barnett was out for the year, when he moved in the middle. He has never played SLB in the NFL.

PackerLegend
01-13-2009, 04:13 PM
God you are annoying. Everything you say is based on hindsight and an overall lack of knowledge. Really not a good combination. You do realize that not every pick made by a general manager is going to warrant an all-star? I want to make sure you understand this before I waste anymore of my time. I guess knowing the fact that not every player develops completely in their first year would be essential knowledge for you to have as well.

Guys like Nelson, Lee, Sitton, and Finley were all drafted knowing they would take more that 1 year to develop fully. When you have a team that just went 13-3, and was an overtime away from the Super Bowl, you would think they could handle that. You seem to not be able to get over the Harrell pick, and yeah, maybe it's not what we needed at the time, but had it not been for the injury before he had been picked, and the fact that he probably declared a year to late, he could have been a top ten, maybe even top five pick.

But no, keep looking back and telling me what you would have done if you were TT after knowing how the first year of every rookie panned out and what they were able to accomplish. Because really, it doesn't mean jack ****.

quoted again because this man speaks the truth, especially the bolded part.

GB12
01-13-2009, 05:19 PM
But he didn't utilize free agency because he thinks he can draft better than everyone else. And obviously he hasn't. Look at his last 2 drafts. Where are the impact players, to go along with the 2 years worth of free agents (Frank Walker & Brandon Chillar)?

Answers please.
They say hindsight is 20/20. So use that 20/20 vision and tell me who should we have signed in the 2007 and 2008 offseasons.

PACKmanN
01-13-2009, 06:06 PM
That's true, but that was 4 years ago.

The past 2 off-seasons, plus this one, this team has been way under the cap.
But he didn't utilize free agency because he thinks he can draft better than everyone else. And obviously he hasn't. Look at his last 2 drafts. Where are the impact players, to go along with the 2 years worth of free agents (Frank Walker & Brandon Chillar)?

Answers please.

lol, how about you answer my question on how he doesn't utilize free agents? maybe they just want to come to Green Bay, and the ones that do and Thompson likes, sign with us... Your just proving my point...there is no reason TT would just stay under the cap without a ligament reason and you will not see TT just come out and say so and so won't sign with us because they don't like Green Bay.

You always read on how players come in to Green Bay and leave not signing, don't give me this crap.

AtariBigby
01-13-2009, 06:21 PM
You always read on how players come in to Green Bay and leave not signing, don't give me this crap.

It's not just players.
Nolan and Williams both came, went, and aren't signing with us.
Woodson didn't want to either but we were really his own option.
You can't tell me that TT had to fight a bunch of other teams to get McCarthy as coach either.

But I know, most youngsters don't want to hear anything negative, or think outside the box.

PACKmanN
01-13-2009, 06:27 PM
It's not just players.
Nolan and Williams both came, went, and aren't signing with us.
Woodson didn't want to either but we were really his own option.
You can't tell me that TT had to fight a bunch of other teams to get McCarthy as coach either.

But I know, most youngsters don't want to hear anything negative, or think outside the box.

did you really just compare players signings and coaches signings? wow...there a major deference in interviewing coaches for our spots and signing players who you have scouted threw out the season...

and btw, whats with you calling us youngsters...it sounds ***...

rumfinator
01-13-2009, 07:37 PM
You didn't need to make a new thread about this (or 2). You have a simple question that could have easily been answered in our general discussion thread which is where I'm moving it now.

No. Not really a draft need. Barnett and Hawk are set in the lineup and we just gave both Poppinga and Chillar contracts last offseason. I think that Chillar will take a hold of the final spot next year and be a fine starter. Poppinga then would be one of the better back ups in the league having started for us the previous 3 seasons. Desmond Bishop then has the 5th spot as a reserve LB/special teamer. I doubt we take a linebacker at all in the draft. The LB play was dissapointing this past season, but if Barnett can return to his usual form and we improve the defensive line we should be in pretty good shape.


Hawk played WLB until Barnett was out for the year, when he moved in the middle. He has never played SLB in the NFL. He did many times with certain packages...that is what I was stating.

RockJock07
01-13-2009, 09:25 PM
That's true, but that was 4 years ago.

The past 2 off-seasons, plus this one, this team has been way under the cap.
But he didn't utilize free agency because he thinks he can draft better than everyone else. And obviously he hasn't. Look at his last 2 drafts. Where are the impact players, to go along with the 2 years worth of free agents (Frank Walker & Brandon Chillar)?

Answers please.

The NFL landscape has changed, with how rookie contracts are given out and the way salary cap is, prime free agents don't get to FA very often. AH from tennessee won't get to the open market and after Peppers no big time free agents get to free agency and when they do it, only a handful of teams can have a shot at them.

In today's NFL building through the draft is cheaper and when those FA's to be such as Jennings, Kampmann, and other are in the contract year the money you didn't spend on unattainable free agents can go back into proven talent that you drafted and that have been in your system.

Yes the packers have a good amount of money under the cap and I'm sure TT will bring in some mid-level guys, however that money needs to be used on our draft picks, current and future.

Smokey
01-13-2009, 11:56 PM
The NFL landscape has changed, with how rookie contracts are given out and the way salary cap is, prime free agents don't get to FA very often. AH from tennessee won't get to the open market and after Peppers no big time free agents get to free agency and when they do it, only a handful of teams can have a shot at them.


Two points:

Albert Haynesworth met some incentives he had signed and therefore the Titans cannot franchise him next year. Not that he won't sign out of loyalty but he is free to negotiate with other teams. I would love to see him as a Packer.

The Panthers have both Julius Peppers and Jordan Gross becoming FA this year. Which do they franchise? I read that Gross, if franchised, will count 10 mil against the cap while Peppers will count 17 million! I think there's a fair chance Peppers hits the market. Either of these guys would look great in Green & Gold.

AtariBigby
01-14-2009, 08:11 AM
Two points:

Albert Haynesworth met some incentives he had signed and therefore the Titans cannot franchise him next year. Not that he won't sign out of loyalty but he is free to negotiate with other teams. I would love to see him as a Packer.

The Panthers have both Julius Peppers and Jordan Gross becoming FA this year. Which do they franchise? I read that Gross, if franchised, will count 10 mil against the cap while Peppers will count 17 million! I think there's a fair chance Peppers hits the market. Either of these guys would look great in Green & Gold.

I would love that too, it would help our team out tremendoously. And just think, it won't cost us a single draft pick. Gonzalez would have cost us a 3rd rounder if Ted had gotten that done, Randy Moss a 3rd or 4th rounder if Ted had gotten that done.

AtariBigby
01-14-2009, 08:17 AM
did you really just compare players signings and coaches signings? wow...there a major deference in interviewing coaches for our spots and signing players who you have scouted threw out the season...


Here's the thing amigo:
Running the organization is Ted Thompson, with his right hand man as McCarthy.
Those guys have to SELL the job. They have to sell the job to prospective coaches and free agents alike.
I have heard bad things behind the scenes about Ted Thompson. And the way some things are happening, or NOT happening, it leads credence to what I have heard. Now either that, or perhaps TT's lack of personality is costing us, or else he's just a bad salesman.
Or maybe as someone pointed out, the city of Green Bay is the thing that's hurting us. We've not had ANY top notch FA CHOOSE Green Bay over another equal opportunity since Reggie White in like 1992 or 1993. Woodson had no other options. Pickett wasn't a premium FA.
Frank Walker and Brandon Chillar...... eh.

LaVar Arrington turned down more money from TT than he accepted to stay in the NFC East. That was lucky for us because it left the $ for TT to go after Woodson.

I'm just sayin, free agency is not TT's forte. It's the draft. And his drafting has not been anything better than average for his 4 years with us. That's why we're so thin on the DL and OL, which is the meat & potatoes of football. The trenches.

PACKmanN
01-14-2009, 10:40 AM
Here's the thing amigo:
Running the organization is Ted Thompson, with his right hand man as McCarthy.
Those guys have to SELL the job. They have to sell the job to prospective coaches and free agents alike.
I have heard bad things behind the scenes about Ted Thompson. And the way some things are happening, or NOT happening, it leads credence to what I have heard. Now either that, or perhaps TT's lack of personality is costing us, or else he's just a bad salesman.
Or maybe as someone pointed out, the city of Green Bay is the thing that's hurting us. We've not had ANY top notch FA CHOOSE Green Bay over another equal opportunity since Reggie White in like 1992 or 1993. Woodson had no other options. Pickett wasn't a premium FA.
Frank Walker and Brandon Chillar...... eh.

LaVar Arrington turned down more money from TT than he accepted to stay in the NFC East. That was lucky for us because it left the $ for TT to go after Woodson.

I'm just sayin, free agency is not TT's forte. It's the draft. And his drafting has not been anything better than average for his 4 years with us. That's why we're so thin on the DL and OL, which is the meat & potatoes of football. The trenches.
wow, you really don't understand it...TT has always gone after free agents, and when he do give them more money, LaVar, they still turn it down. How is it his fault...and you still are comparing free agents to coaches, you cant tell which coach will be available to talk to until after the playoffs...your just upset that we are not signing Nolan.

narf029
01-14-2009, 11:16 AM
Here's the thing amigo:
Running the organization is Ted Thompson, with his right hand man as McCarthy.
Those guys have to SELL the job. They have to sell the job to prospective coaches and free agents alike.

Have you considered the fact that Mike Nolan might have wanted to change the team to a 3-4? Have you considered the fact that maybe Sean McDermott has been our guy all along? Or perhaps somebody from your beloved Steelers? I mean I didn't hear us make an offer to Mike Nolan. We didn't want him bad enough to make an offer and set our franchise back 5 years. Were you there for the interview? Do you hear that Ted Thompson ties his interviewees to the goal post and leaves them in the blistering cold? Have you even met Ted Thompson? What kind of bad stuff could possibly go on behind the scenes?

UK_Cheesehead
01-14-2009, 02:23 PM
Out of interest what is it about the city of Green Bay that puts players off?

To me the only FA that we would want who might hit the market is either Gross or Peppers, and I can't see us being the only teams in for those.

princefielder28
01-14-2009, 02:29 PM
Out of interest what is it about the city of Green Bay that puts players off?

To me the only FA that we would want who might hit the market is either Gross or Peppers, and I can't see us being the only teams in for those.

Green Bay is a very "dead" city and there isn't too much to do here. It is also heavily a white community so minorities may feel out of place in a city like Green Bay.

Whistler6
01-14-2009, 02:53 PM
I don't see why players wouldn't want to come to Green Bay. WI has a couple bigger cities, Madison and Milwaukee which aren't "hopp'n" by any means. Still, it's a storied franchise with HUGE fan support. On top of that, how many Packer players do you hear getting in trouble? Yeah there has been a namely few, but Javon Walker leaves Green Bay and is almost immediately involved in some bad situations.

I think if anything players would see that Green Bay is somewhat isolated and quiet... A place where they can come and focus soley on their job and performance. There is always time off to take trips, party, etc.

Today's younger players seem to like the warm weather (ex. Big 10 falling off the map), but there is still a great amount who enjoy coming to a smaller city like Green Bay and playing football here.

Coasts are very attractive as are Florida and Texas, but it's not like Green Bay is the Milwaukee Brewers.. The city might be wayyyy off the map, but fact is, Green Bay is a place to come and win. They don't sit on the bottom of the NFC each year and squeak into the playoffs once every 20-odd years (Brewers) ya know? I guess we can thank Favre for that, but still.

Also, the salary cap allows Green Bay to compete with every other team. It's not a Yankees-Marlins type difference.

TitleTown088
01-14-2009, 02:57 PM
It depends ont he type of player. I'm actually quite happy that Green bay dosen't attract certain types of players. It attracts guys who are all about football.
Also, new ST guy promoted from within.
The Green Bay Packers have selected Shawn Slocum as their new special teams coordinator.


http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/37550999.html

Whistler6
01-14-2009, 03:19 PM
Your right. Green Bay has managed to be a competitive team and win for the past 2-ish decades with class players. As fans, we only get to see and hear so much of what is going on, but it really seems like the players on this team are aware of how lucky they are.

We don't hear about Pac Man's or TO's or even Plaxico Burress's here in Green Bay, and I like that. "Packer people"

Also, players here get involved in the community. Aaron Rodgers has helped out and read with little elementary school students at the same school in Oshkosh WI that I volunteer at several days a week. I only found out about that through his profile on the Packer's website, but it's still nice to hear of player's doing good in their surrounding areas.

GB12
01-14-2009, 03:33 PM
We've not had ANY top notch FA CHOOSE Green Bay over another equal opportunity since Reggie White in like 1992 or 1993.Who exactly are these top notch free agents who chose another city over Green Bay? The only top notch free agent we brought in was Charles Woodson and he is a Packer.

Now answer my question
They say hindsight is 20/20. So use that 20/20 vision and tell me who should we have signed in the 2007 and 2008 offseasons.

PACKmanN
01-14-2009, 04:08 PM
Who exactly are these top notch free agents who chose another city over Green Bay? The only top notch free agent we brought in was Charles Woodson and he is a Packer.

Now answer my question

exactly and even if there was a top free agent available, neither, since Reggie, have signed with Green Bay. Its not just a TT thing.

AtariBigby
01-14-2009, 07:18 PM
Green Bay is a very "dead" city and there isn't too much to do here. It is also heavily a white community so minorities may feel out of place in a city like Green Bay.
As Charles Woodson pointed out.
Now if I said it, you'd call me names. But Woodson said it, and so did PF28 here.
Of course, some of you can still deny this, but we're right.

True, Green Bay has been darkening up the past few years, but still what Woodson said rings true. And look at the guys: Haynesworth, Peppers, Suggs, Dansby...... they can choose a better team, and live in a place with more culture, and a GM with Charisma..... we're screwed. But maybe I'm wrong and one of those guys will take our $ and come to Green Bay. That would be nice.

GB12
01-14-2009, 07:28 PM
Can you answer that or are you just going to keep ignoring me?

AtariBigby
01-14-2009, 08:28 PM
Can you answer that or are you just going to keep ignoring me?
Who are you asking, and what is the question?
You know I'm not afraid to answer any questions. I thrive on going against the grain. So I assume you are referring to someone else, but you don't specify here. Is it secret code?

TitleTown088
01-14-2009, 08:32 PM
Who are you asking, and what is the question?
You know I'm not afraid to answer any questions. I thrive on going against the grain. So I assume you are referring to someone else, but you don't specify here. Is it secret code?

It's no enigma. He asked you plain as day...twice.



Originally Posted by GB12 View Post
They say hindsight is 20/20. So use that 20/20 vision and tell me who should we have signed in the 2007 and 2008 offseasons.
__________________

GB12
01-14-2009, 08:33 PM
I asked you twice while quoting one of your posts and once right below your post. It's not that hard to understand. See post 10636 for the question

Zycho32
01-14-2009, 08:34 PM
EDIT: Beaten to it, twice. Still, seems awfully lazy of you to not search for the question in the first place.

narf029
01-14-2009, 08:47 PM
I recently moved to the Green Bay area, and the first real thing I noticed is the city does feel dead to me. I went out at midnight one night because I was hungry, and the only place I could find open was Denny's, every other place (fast food, IHOP, every restaurant) closed at like 10. Since then I've found other things to do, but I could see how the first impression of the place is kind of dead, and dull. I do respect the fact that guys who do want to sign with us are solely focused on playing football, but the fact is some guys who enjoy a nightlife are pretty good football players. We could obviously avoid signing guys like Pac Man just by avoiding guys who get in the news for off the field stuff, but Green Bay definitely suffers a disadvantage to teams like New York in that aspect.

neko4
01-14-2009, 08:50 PM
Well alot of guys could just live in Chicago.
BTW, Buffalo, a smaller town like Green Bay, can be enjoyable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSO-kdWLFes

Whistler6
01-14-2009, 08:55 PM
Milwaukee, Madison, St. Paul, Minneapolis, Chicago, etc... Most players don't live in Green Bay anyway. Plus, during the season it's not like it's the worst thing from them not to have a club down the street to go party in. In the offseason, they can go wherever they want. Right?

Maybe I am a little one-sided because I don't see Green Bay as being dead and don't live the "celebrity" lifestyle. But Idk.. Haha, I go to UW-Oshkosh and I feel like that place is pretty awesome.

GB12
01-14-2009, 08:56 PM
Milwaukee, Madison, St. Paul, Minneapolis, Chicago, etc... Most players don't live in Green Bay anyway. Plus, during the season it's not like it's the worst thing from them not to have a club down the street to go party in. In the offseason, they can go wherever they want. Right?

Maybe I am a little one-sided because I don't see Green Bay as being dead and don't live the "celebrity" lifestyle. But Idk.. Haha, I go to UW-Oshkosh and I feel like that place is pretty awesome.
No matter what team they play for most players don't live in that city in the offseason.

TitleTown088
01-14-2009, 08:59 PM
Well alot of guys could just live in Chicago.
BTW, Buffalo, a smaller town like Green Bay, can be enjoyable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSO-kdWLFes

" They eve let me pour my own drank"

Bruce Banner
01-14-2009, 09:02 PM
I <3 TT088 so much.

I was about to make that my avy yesterday.

<3!

Zycho32
01-14-2009, 09:09 PM
Well, even if players don't live in Green Bay during the off-season, they still gotta play there half the season, and half of THAT spent in cold weather without a dome. You simply can't beat the midwest at wintertime if you want to freeze to death.

Weather's not the primary concern, but it does add up with the city itself.

PACKmanN
01-14-2009, 09:28 PM
Well alot of guys could just live in Chicago.
BTW, Buffalo, a smaller town like Green Bay, can be enjoyable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSO-kdWLFes

players can live in Buffalo because Toronto right across I believe.

PACKmanN
01-14-2009, 09:31 PM
As Charles Woodson pointed out.
Now if I said it, you'd call me names. But Woodson said it, and so did PF28 here.
Of course, some of you can still deny this, but we're right.

True, Green Bay has been darkening up the past few years, but still what Woodson said rings true. And look at the guys: Haynesworth, Peppers, Suggs, Dansby...... they can choose a better team, and live in a place with more culture, and a GM with Charisma..... we're screwed. But maybe I'm wrong and one of those guys will take our $ and come to Green Bay. That would be nice.

what the hell does an GM with charisma have to do? are we watching wrestling or something? the only time a player should be in an GM office is to be resigned or be cut. I doubt a players cares much for the GM then things like money and location.

You love to always spin things back at TT don't you.

PACKmanN
01-14-2009, 10:01 PM
Does anyone know why Woodson is being replaced by Barber in the Pro Bowl?

GB12
01-14-2009, 10:14 PM
Does anyone know why Woodson is being replaced by Barber in the Pro Bowl?
Woodson didn't want to go.

Bruce Banner
01-14-2009, 10:15 PM
I hope that Barber you speak of isn't Ronde.

AtariBigby
01-14-2009, 10:41 PM
what the hell does an GM with charisma have to do? are we watching wrestling or something? the only time a player should be in an GM office is to be resigned or be cut. I doubt a players cares much for the GM then things like money and location.

You love to always spin things back at TT don't you.

Location sucks, CHECK
Culture of area sucks, CHECK
GM players rally behind, NO CHECK

All these things make it a hard sell to both coaches and potential free agents.

If that's too hard for you to comprehend, then get back to us after a couple more years in the real world. Oh, ding me some rep in the meantime.

Zycho32
01-14-2009, 11:14 PM
Pardon me, but isn't the GM the one that 'signs' the Free Agents? Isn't he the front man when it comes to 'enticing' said players to sign up with their club, or is that the dominion of the Coach?

Because if it's the GM, then Atari's contending that TT isn't good at 'selling' the perks of the Green Bay Packers to prospective players, whether by personality or by lowballing.

mqtirishfan
01-14-2009, 11:23 PM
Because if it's the GM, then Atari's contending that TT isn't good at 'selling' the perks of the Green Bay Packers to prospective players, whether by personality or by lowballing.

What ******* perks are there? Hey you, come to Green Bay, where it's currently negative ******* 40.

PackerLegend
01-14-2009, 11:30 PM
Woodson didn't want to go.

I read that the coaches and him agreed it would be best if he had ample time to heal. Really he probably doesn't need it but, no reason to have one of our most important players in the probowl. He did have a broken toe but that has to be fully healed by now Id think.

UK_Cheesehead
01-15-2009, 04:38 AM
Thanks for the replies guys, as you can probably tell I've never been to GB/WI (would like to go one day for a game) so when people say stuff like that I have to rely on you guys.

I agree with the poster who said that in a way it is good though, because they won't be off shooting themselves in the leg, or doing whatever pacman does, or bringing down the franchise because of their stupid antics, and they focus 100% on their football. Although it obviously may hinder certain players coming who enjoy perhaps hot weather all year round, or a bit of a party lifestyle, we get the guys who wanna play for this team and I think I prefer it like that.

TitleTown088
01-15-2009, 11:27 AM
Location sucks, CHECK
Culture of area sucks, CHECK
GM players rally behind, NO CHECK

All these things make it a hard sell to both coaches and potential free agents.

If that's too hard for you to comprehend, then get back to us after a couple more years in the real world. Oh, ding me some rep in the meantime.
Location sucks? Yeah, the best venue in sports sucks alright.
Culture sucks? Players should be there to play football. They don't even reside in Green bay during the off season. No to mention not every player is looking for a NYC type atmosphere. Keep your Plexicos out of Green bay I'll take guys like Greg Jennings all day.

Most importantly...$$$$, CHECK.




What difference does it make whether players rally behind the GM? Look for them to Rally behind the damn coach, who Ted hired to do so.

johbur
01-15-2009, 06:09 PM
With regards to the nightlife, what I like about GB is that the area is about football. Maybe some hunting to entice guys like Brett, but really, it's about football. The guys who go to NO, Dallas or NY seem to just end up in a lot more trouble, usually with the starting phrase: "While out at a club at 2 am..."

That can be good for guys with a history that are trying turn things around and focus on football and making money. Donald Driver dealt crack as a youth and who knows what would have happened had he gone to NY instead of GB. There's just not opportunity to get involved in as much trouble, though players will do as their character dictates.

We have the money to entice some of the good free agents, IF TT would ever pull the trigger. Given the 10 or so guys that will be FA in 2010, he just might save his pennies to keep Jennings and Collins and everyone else. We also have a good QB and are a year removed from the NFC Championship game OT loss. It's not like we're the Lions trying to recruit guys to a winless team.

PackerLegend
01-15-2009, 06:12 PM
Randy Moss a 3rd or 4th rounder if Ted had gotten that done.

If Moss would have been traded to GB that would have stunted Jennings growth and he wouldn't be what he is right now because of that. Jennings>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moss, Jennings is entering his prime and Moss is about to leave it. Not to mention attitude and character. Favre would have thrown 56898532456 int's trying to force it to Moss 24/7

AtariBigby
01-15-2009, 06:29 PM
If Moss would have been traded to GB that would have stunted Jennings growth and he wouldn't be what he is right now because of that. Jennings>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moss, Jennings is entering his prime and Moss is about to leave it. Not to mention attitude and character. Favre would have thrown 56898532456 int's trying to force it to Moss 24/7

I agree with you about Favre probably throwing a bunch of Ints to a double covered Moss. That's true. Favre makes his mind up in the huddle and doesn't let anything like coverage change his mind. True that.

But I don't think Jennings growth would have been stunted really. He was a natural, even as a rookie. His stats surely would have been down, but with Moss scoring almost a TD a game (with Brady), that would have been okay if it kept GJ's #'s down a bit. Bottom like, Jennings was wide open in OT against the Giants with the Super Bowl on his finger tips, and like you said, Favre just went with his pre-read to Driver..... Int.

TitleTown088
01-15-2009, 06:30 PM
. Favre would have thrown 56898532456 int's trying to force it to Moss 24/7

True, but think about How many balls Moss would have came down with?

Favre and Moss would have been a match made in heaven.

GB12
01-15-2009, 06:31 PM
You know I'm not afraid to answer any questions.
Over 49 hours later and you still haven't answered.

johbur
01-16-2009, 01:43 AM
They say hindsight is 20/20. So use that 20/20 vision and tell me who should we have signed in the 2007 and 2008 offseasons.

OK, I pretty much post this ahead of time every year.

If you're actually using hindsight, then Michael Turner would have been worth whatever draft pick he cost to acquire as an RFA.

Of the UFA's in 2007, I had advocated at the time to address TE, with Eric Johnson or Daniel Graham. I still think TE needs to be addressed. Our TEs just did not seem noticeable this year, and when A-Rod was running around, I didn't see them open as the escape valve or picking up crucial 3rd downs.

Our Offensive line in 2007 was unacceptable. In particular, TT had failed miserably to address the OG position, which lead to Sherman gone in 2006 and I think contributed in a heavy way to the 8 losses in 2007. Leonard Davis was available, and he's only gone to the Pro Bowl for the Cowboys. Maybe he "wouldn't have fit the scheme" but, with Clifton, Taush and then Davis not fitting the scheme, maybe you get a new scheme!!! On the non-hindsight, I advocated to bring in Kris Dielman or bring in Dwayne Carswell for a look.

On the DL, Jared Allen was an RFA in 07. Think he might have been worth going after? Maybe just a bit? I think Patrick Kerney would have been a solid choice and Ian Scott at the time deserved a look.

Now, in 2007, this was pre-Hawk, so look at the wealth of talent at LB: Adalius Thomas, Cato June (who I was very public about bringing in), Joey Porter, Rob Morris and London Fletcher. We brought in and were spurned by LaVar Arrington.

Nate Clements got stupid money, but the player I wanted was the other safety from Seattle instead of Manuel: Ken Hamlin. Instead he goes to the Cowboys and goes to the Pro Bowl. At the time, Deon Grant was worth a look and Gibril Wilson was an RFA and had been drafted in the 5th round. I don't think he was tendered at a 1st round compensation, so for anything less than a first rounder he'd have been a steal. Toss a poison pill in the contract and we'd have had a tremendous strong safety and the Giants wouldn't have had him when we played them...

2008 a different animal as we were coming off 13-3 than 8-8. There were not as many obvious holes.
Players to look at acquiring:
Mike Anderson as a HB/FB and mentor in the ZBS. Kuhn has been solid, but very different from a FB that could produce in the running game.
We were set at WR, HB for the most part and QB. LB looked good at the time and TT brought in Chillar, who should be starting over B-Pop, IMO.
Lee as a starter looked good, but there was no one behind him. Bubba Franks would have been a heck of a lot better as the #2 TE than what we had this past year, and he'd have been a veteran leader. Eric Johnson also worth a look.
The O-Line still not settled and the interior still a weakness. Alan Faneca available, but not sure he was worth the money. Jake Scott would have been interesting to bring in. Chris Myers an RFA that the Texans took from the Broncos.
On the D-Line, I would have re-signed Corey Williams. We had the cap space (and still do). His interior pass rush made our defense very strong against the pass when he was here. Wouldn't you have rather had Corey Williams than Brian Brohm?
Jared Allen still would have made a better Packer than a Viking. Him opposite AK with Jenkins inside would have been savage, though he was franchised. Perhaps the best DE option at the time that was realistic would have been Justin Smith. I wanted Lance Briggs as an FA then as SLB was a problem, and still covet him.
In the secondary, I advocated for Asante Samuel. He's in the playoffs with the Eagles and we're not. Yep, he'd have cost a lot of money. I thought he was worth it, though. Every year Allen Rossum is up, I still want to acquire him. He should have been a lifelong Packer. OJ Otogwe an RFA worth getting, IMO, especially as Collins wasn't all that good pre-2008 and Bigby had one good year. In 2008 I think it would have been better to have kept Williams and Franks. I don't know if Samuel would have greatly impacted the team, but Woodson could have moved to SS and we'd have had Samuel, Harris (with Woodson filling in at CB when he got hurt), Woodson and Collins in the secondary. That doesn't suck.

That's 20-20 vision though. There's guys worth getting in this FA cycle, particularly on the line and maybe at LB. I'd like to see who's available when FA starts and pick up an impact guy for the money up-front this year (like with Woodson), and then next year's cap can be applied to the big class of our own FAs.

TT has addressed most of the offense through the draft, but the defense isn't as young and going to get better like the offense. He either needs to fill spots with FA or actually get some players that stick on defense. He scrood the pooch on Harrell and some others just haven't materialized like the offensive players like Abdul Hodge, Blackmon as a CB, Jeremy Thompson and Patrick Lee as of yet, the safeties that have gone injured like Underwood (who I really liked) and the continual trading down and passing guys like Kenny Philips and Calais Campbell is wearisome.

I hope TT gets on the stick and hits some home runs in the draft, but he is so married to the draft that he skips looking for RFA players and he dabbles in FA.

jackalope
01-16-2009, 08:53 AM
My two bigget issues with this...


Now, in 2007, this was pre-Hawk, so look at the wealth of talent at LB: Adalius Thomas, Cato June (who I was very public about bringing in), Joey Porter, Rob Morris and London Fletcher. We brought in and were spurned by LaVar Arrington.

We drafted Hawk in 2006. Arrington was a FA in the 2006 offseason, but June, Porter, Thomas, and Fletcher weren't fee agents until 2007, after we had Hawk. Morris didn't even play this season so I'm not sure why we should have signed him.


In the secondary, I advocated for Asante Samuel. He's in the playoffs with the Eagles and we're not. Yep, he'd have cost a lot of money. I don't know if Samuel would have greatly impacted the team, but Woodson could have moved to SS and we'd have had Samuel, Harris (with Woodson filling in at CB when he got hurt), Woodson and Collins in the secondary. That doesn't suck.


Bringing in Samuel wouldn't have been a good move. Samuel wouldn't have been an improvement over Woodson, so had we been able to sign him, we would have essentially been spending a lot of money to move Woodson to SS.

AtariBigby
01-16-2009, 09:29 AM
Over 49 hours later and you still haven't answered.

You have a question somewhere, hidden in code or something? I don't have the time or patience to sort thru FIVE, count em, 5 Packer threads here and many messages in each. I post on 3 different forums, not just this one.

What's your question for me, make it clear.

jackalope
01-16-2009, 11:01 AM
They say hindsight is 20/20. So use that 20/20 vision and tell me who should we have signed in the 2007 and 2008 offseasons.

This is the question that he's quoted and referred to several times.

GB12
01-16-2009, 01:18 PM
You have a question somewhere, hidden in code or something? I don't have the time or patience to sort thru FIVE, count em, 5 Packer threads here and many messages in each. I post on 3 different forums, not just this one.

What's your question for me, make it clear.
I've posted it like 5 different times in this thread for you with at least 2 of them quoting one of your posts. Everyone else here knows what I'm talking about, so unless you consider plain english a code then no it's not in a hidden code.


They say hindsight is 20/20. So use that 20/20 vision and tell me who should we have signed in the 2007 and 2008 offseasons.

AtariBigby
01-16-2009, 04:12 PM
They say hindsight is 20/20. So use that 20/20 vision and tell me who should we have signed in the 2007 and 2008 offseasons..

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few players who would have made our team better.
2007
The Seahawks signed DE Patrick Kerney from Atlanta. He seemed to do okay for Seattle, making the Pro Bowl. Imagine him getting some money from us that year instead of KGB.

Adalius Thomas in 2007 would have been a nice addition. he can play multiple positions, and would have been a nice replacement for our then #2-highest paid player, KGB.

In 2007, we signed only Franky Walker, from the Giants. They also had a couple of other UFA's that year, named Shaun O'Hara, and Visanthe Shiancoe. They've both done pretty well since, while Frank Walker was a one & done nothing for us.

Leonard Davis, the big OG/OT was signed away from AZ by Dallas. He's made 2 Pro Bowls since. Our OL certainly could have used some help, as we all know.

In 2008, it might have been nice to give some money to RB Michael Turner instead of Ryan Grant, as I hear everyone complaining about how Grant was this year. I personally think Grant did well, all things considered.

PACKmanN
01-16-2009, 04:18 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few players who would have made our team better.
2007
The Seahawks signed DE Patrick Kerney from Atlanta. He seemed to do okay for Seattle, making the Pro Bowl. Imagine him getting some money from us that year instead of KGB.

Adalius Thomas in 2007 would have been a nice addition. he can play multiple positions, and would have been a nice replacement for our then #2-highest paid player, KGB.

In 2007, we signed only Franky Walker, from the Giants. They also had a couple of other UFA's that year, named Shaun O'Hara, and Visanthe Shiancoe. They've both done pretty well since, while Frank Walker was a one & done nothing for us.

Leonard Davis, the big OG/OT was signed away from AZ by Dallas. He's made 2 Pro Bowls since. Our OL certainly could have used some help, as we all know.

In 2008, it might have been nice to give some money to RB Michael Turner instead of Ryan Grant, as I hear everyone complaining about how Grant was this year. I personally think Grant did well, all things considered.
I am so thankful you are not the Packers' GM or in the Front Office for the Packers. Maybe you should consider sending your resume to the Bears, Vikings or even the lonely Lions.

AtariBigby
01-16-2009, 04:52 PM
Why not tough guy?

You don't think Adalius Thomas, Patrick Kerney, Shaun O'Hara, Leonard Davis, Michael Turner, or Randy Moss for that matter, could have made our team?

If our team is that good, why did our defense rank in the bottom 10 this year?

You got a lot of explaining to do there Canada, but I won't hold my breath. You CANNOT explain it, you're the type of student who just knows how to throw darts at others instead of find logic against them.

GB12
01-16-2009, 05:23 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few players who would have made our team better.
2007
The Seahawks signed DE Patrick Kerney from Atlanta. He seemed to do okay for Seattle, making the Pro Bowl. Imagine him getting some money from us that year instead of KGB.
A 6 year contract to a 30 year old DE doesn't do it for me. He had a career year in 2007, but Seattle's going to be stuck with a 36 year old DE making 5.6 million in 2012. I'll pass on that. He was injured this year and I think he'll have a sharp decline next season. He was on the decline before going to Seattle even.

Adalius Thomas in 2007 would have been a nice addition. he can play multiple positions, and would have been a nice replacement for our then #2-highest paid player, KGB. Thomas would have been a nice addition, but he wanted to go to the Patriots. He didn't even bother going anywhere else because he knew he wanted to sign with New England.

In 2007, we signed only Franky Walker, from the Giants. They also had a couple of other UFA's that year, named Shaun O'Hara, and Visanthe Shiancoe. They've both done pretty well since, while Frank Walker was a one & done nothing for us.
Shiancoe was nothing in New York. In 4 years with the Giants he had 35 catches for 253 yards and 3 TDs. He sucked big time for the Vikings last year. It wasn't until this past year that he did anything and other than the Falcons game he wasn't that great. I'd take Donald Lee over him.

I don't remember O'Hara's situation exactly, but I don't think there was ever a question that he'd be back with the Giants.

Leonard Davis, the big OG/OT was signed away from AZ by Dallas. He's made 2 Pro Bowls since. Our OL certainly could have used some help, as we all know.Leonard Davis was a bust as a guard, he'd have to play tackle where both Clifton and Tauscher were very good at that time. Not to mention that he belongs in a power scheme. Add in the 7 year $50 million contract and it's a huge no.

[quoteIn 2008, it might have been nice to give some money to RB Michael Turner instead of Ryan Grant, as I hear everyone complaining about how Grant was this year. I personally think Grant did well, all things considered.[/quote]
I'm with you on Grant. Turner certainly is better though. However at the time Turner had never started a game, played behind one of the best run blocking lines in the league and the best RB in the league, and Grant was coming off of a great second half. Signing Turner last year was never a realistic though.


It's easy to blast Thompson for his free agency moves by saying he doesn't sign anyone, but in reality that has been a good thing. Even when you use hindsight there were only 6 players from those 2 years that you think would like. And there is good reason to not sign them for each of them. I don't think that Thompson is afraid of free agency, he is just smart about it. He will sign a player if the value is there as shown by Woodson and Pickett in '06, but if it's not he'll stay out of it as shown in '07 and '08. This year will probably be one of the best free agent classes in a while so I think we'll see a bigger signing this time again.

PACKmanN
01-16-2009, 05:46 PM
Why not tough guy?

You don't think Adalius Thomas, Patrick Kerney, Shaun O'Hara, Leonard Davis, Michael Turner, or Randy Moss for that matter, could have made our team?

If our team is that good, why did our defense rank in the bottom 10 this year?

You got a lot of explaining to do there Canada, but I won't hold my breath. You CANNOT explain it, you're the type of student who just knows how to throw darts at others instead of find logic against them.

Thomas: Wouldn't take him at 10 million a year...
Kerney: I would take him but I'm fine with Jenkins and Kampman, plus there was no serenity that he would return to his old form.
O'Hara: Never seen anything of him being a free agent and what would we do with a center plus he loves NY...
Davis: What on earth would you want him in a ZBS...
Turner: We are not in a need to get a running back would making 35 million in 6 years.
Moss: He wanted to come here until he found out that the Patriots had interest in him...

narf029
01-16-2009, 06:41 PM
Atari, you listed off only offensive players except for Adalius Thomas, and Kerney (who is now an injured commodity with a horrible contract thanks to free agency), yet you said "Why did our defense rank in the bottom 10 this year?" What would Visanthe Shiancoe do to improve our defense?

AtariBigby
01-16-2009, 06:41 PM
So there ya go, a few guys that would have been upgrades.
And as for the ZONE blocking crap, get rid of it.

TitleTown088
01-16-2009, 07:01 PM
So there ya go, a few guys that would have been upgrades.
And as for the ZONE blocking crap, get rid of it.

Yeah, let go ahead and scrap a very good offense already. It's been terrible.

AtariBigby
01-16-2009, 07:09 PM
Yeah, let go ahead and scrap a very good offense already. It's been terrible.

Nothing stays the same. Either you can improve, or get worse.
Which do you want?

cuzifelt1ikeit
01-16-2009, 07:10 PM
haha. so i usually just read what everyone has to offer here and dont post much anymore.. but its been hard to do lately with bigsby picking fights with everyone.. i think it would be easier if you just stopped being a packer fan, changed your user name to troypolamalu and move to steel city, pa.

save us all the trouble, you suck.

AtariBigby
01-16-2009, 08:30 PM
haha. so i usually just read what everyone has to offer here and dont post much anymore...
hey, if i could u outta your comfort zone and got you to post, anything, then the world is a better place because of it.
spend 5 minutes with cuz, you're a better person for it.

god bless the PACKERS!

Whistler6
01-16-2009, 09:26 PM
haha. so i usually just read what everyone has to offer here and dont post much anymore.. but its been hard to do lately with bigsby picking fights with everyone.. i think it would be easier if you just stopped being a packer fan, changed your user name to troypolamalu and move to steel city, pa.

save us all the trouble, you suck.

Right on man.. I mean GOD. We all have opinions but there is no reason to attack everyone and be a complete douche. Honestly. I have almost stopped posting because instead of Packer fan conversation, it's negativity and attacking. Geez.

cuzifelt1ikeit
01-16-2009, 09:48 PM
hey, if i could u outta your comfort zone and got you to post, anything, then the world is a better place because of it.
spend 5 minutes with cuz, you're a better person for it.

god bless the PACKERS!

does not compute.. arent you the person who is "smart"? what does if i could u outta mean anyway..

mqtirishfan
01-16-2009, 11:53 PM
Nothing stays the same. Either you can improve, or get worse.
Which do you want?


You don't improve by starting over from scratch.

tjsunstein
01-17-2009, 12:31 AM
I stopped posting in this thread in majority because of AtariBigby. Seems to have everything figured out for the team when looking in hindsight. Really, you would have signed Kerney with Kampman and a finally healthy Jenkins on the end? Let's not forget at the time we also had KGB. But yea, you probably would have taken him because you saw this down year for our defense. If you hate everything about the Packers and what they do, why are you a fan?

umphrey
01-17-2009, 01:47 AM
Agreed. I usually skim over his posts and then I end up getting bored and doing something else.

PACKmanN
01-17-2009, 02:31 AM
Nothing stays the same. Either you can improve, or get worse.
Which do you want?

this is where you are wrong...this is a young offense. Other then Clifton and Driver, the only guys who are over 30 with a contract on the Packers' offense. Each year they grow and learn more...how could they get worse, care to explain...

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 10:21 AM
Here's the problem:

I first came on here about a month ago, or 2-3 weeks, can't remember, because my sources were telling me that McCarthy was after Mike Nolan and he was looking at converting to a 3-4.

I immediately got yelled at by a few of you, hockeyface, and GB12, and told that "because WE already had this talk for 6 pages and WE proved that it was NOT AN OPTION" that I should just shut up and forget it.

What? You don't tell anyone that. When i get apologies, then I will turn into the nice, friendly, and informative poster that I can be.

It's not starting from scratch either, if you convert to a 3-4. It's just a change. Did we start from scratch on offense last year changing QBs for the 1st time in 15 seasons? It went okay didn't it, on offense.

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 10:22 AM
Hard to believe Charles Woodson isn't on this poll of favorite Packer, yet Tauscher is.

cuzifelt1ikeit
01-17-2009, 11:07 AM
Here's the problem:

I first came on here about a month ago, or 2-3 weeks, can't remember, because my sources were telling me that McCarthy was after Mike Nolan and he was looking at converting to a 3-4.

I immediately got yelled at by a few of you, hockeyface, and GB12, and told that "because WE already had this talk for 6 pages and WE proved that it was NOT AN OPTION" that I should just shut up and forget it.

What? You don't tell anyone that. When i get apologies, then I will turn into the nice, friendly, and informative poster that I can be.

It's not starting from scratch either, if you convert to a 3-4. It's just a change. Did we start from scratch on offense last year changing QBs for the 1st time in 15 seasons? It went okay didn't it, on offense.

i appologize for the entire green bay packer forum posters. let the informing begin...

changing quarterbacks, especially one that has been on the roster for several seasons, is a HUGE difference in comparison with changing defensive schemes.

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 11:33 AM
changing quarterbacks, especially one that has been on the roster for several seasons, is a HUGE difference in comparison with changing defensive schemes.
Are we already making changes on defense with a new defensive coordinator?
Are we going to be doing the exact same thing, with a new guy yelling orders?
Or are we going to be going to a new system or scheme?
What do you think?

Twiddler
01-17-2009, 12:05 PM
Here's the problem:

I first came on here about a month ago, or 2-3 weeks, can't remember, because my sources were telling me that McCarthy was after Mike Nolan and he was looking at converting to a 3-4.

I immediately got yelled at by a few of you, hockeyface, and GB12, and told that "because WE already had this talk for 6 pages and WE proved that it was NOT AN OPTION" that I should just shut up and forget it.

What? You don't tell anyone that. When i get apologies, then I will turn into the nice, friendly, and informative poster that I can be.

It's not starting from scratch either, if you convert to a 3-4. It's just a change. Did we start from scratch on offense last year changing QBs for the 1st time in 15 seasons? It went okay didn't it, on offense.

Please never, ever make this comparison again. I know that in general they are both "changes" but having Rodgers take over the starting job and switching to a 3-4 are completely different changes. Yes, I imagine that many details of the offense were changed to accommodate to Rodgers but we did not have to bring in new players to fit our scheme or other things like that.

GB12
01-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Hard to believe Charles Woodson isn't on this poll of favorite Packer, yet Tauscher is.
There can only be 10 choices and I was going in alphabetical order with the options I was including. I meant to include him, but ran out of space. It doesn't really mean anything, just wanted to change the old one. I'll change this one soon enough too.

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Please never, ever make this comparison again. I know that in general they are both "changes" but having Rodgers take over the starting job and switching to a 3-4 are completely different changes. Yes, I imagine that many details of the offense were changed to accommodate to Rodgers but we did not have to bring in new players to fit our scheme or other things like that.
Well why don't you ask opponents on defense if they thought of the Packers a lot differently with no more Favre there. It may not have been a big change to YOU, but in actuality, it was a HUGE CHANGE.
And we know Rodgers did great.

NOW HOPEFULLY the team all has 100% confidence in him and we can get our swagger back.

A kick-butt defense would help. We need players, a better coach, and a better system. 4-3, fine, just run it better.

cuzifelt1ikeit
01-17-2009, 12:50 PM
Are we already making changes on defense with a new defensive coordinator?
Are we going to be doing the exact same thing, with a new guy yelling orders?
Or are we going to be going to a new system or scheme?
What do you think?

4-3 is still a 4-3. the base personnel is still the same. granted you might have to change a peice or two depending on the exact scheme of it. its like switching from clevelands 3-4 to dallas's 3-4. 4-3 to 3-4 is an orange while the rest are apples. i dont know what you dont see in that

Well why don't you ask opponents on defense if they thought of the Packers a lot differently with no more Favre there. It may not have been a big change to YOU, but in actuality, it was a HUGE CHANGE.
And we know Rodgers did great.

NOW HOPEFULLY the team all has 100% confidence in him and we can get our swagger back.

A kick-butt defense would help. We need players, a better coach, and a better system. 4-3, fine, just run it better.

again you are comparing changes in defense to changes to a specific player. of course its a huge change. its like going from ahmad carroll at db to having charles woodson. do you think opposing qb's changed their gameplanning at all? of course they did, they are professionals.

Twiddler
01-17-2009, 12:53 PM
Well why don't you ask opponents on defense if they thought of the Packers a lot differently with no more Favre there. It may not have been a big change to YOU, but in actuality, it was a HUGE CHANGE.
And we know Rodgers did great.

NOW HOPEFULLY the team all has 100% confidence in him and we can get our swagger back.

A kick-butt defense would help. We need players, a better coach, and a better system. 4-3, fine, just run it better.

Of course it was a big difference, but it wasn't a HUGE DIFFERENCE to the Packers. Meaning, we didn't have to bring in all new players and coordinators in order to best suit Rodgers' skill set. That was my point.

Whistler6
01-17-2009, 12:54 PM
Are we already making changes on defense with a new defensive coordinator?
Are we going to be doing the exact same thing, with a new guy yelling orders?
Or are we going to be going to a new system or scheme?
What do you think?

WE are fans.. WE are not the front office or part of the team. They will do what they want to do. WE will talk about what we would like them/the team to do.

Pet Peeve #1:
1) Calling the team you cheer for "we"



Anyways, it really looks like McCarthy is trying to make a big spalsh with his DC pick. He seems to want a proven big name, vet. I'm pretty happy about that and I hope they don't promote from within. Since Nolan is gone, Dom Capers seems to be a solid pick. He has to be worthy especially since he's been HC in a couple places.

Did anyone read the NFL Forum about Peppers? Realistically, does Green Bay have a shot at a guy like him? He would give the defense an actuallly identity, and their weakness would immediately be their strength. Here's to hoping...before we are all eventually let down. haha.

Twiddler
01-17-2009, 12:59 PM
Did anyone read the NFL Forum about Peppers? Realistically, does Green Bay have a shot at a guy like him? He would give the defense an actuallly identity, and their weakness would immediately be their strength. Here's to hoping...before we are all eventually let down. haha.

Well, I think its remotely possible, but it would have to depend on a few things. Most importantly, TT is going to have to want to spend, or at least figure out that he's going to have to throw the bank at Peppers if we're going to have any chance. Secondly, Peppers is going to have to want to come to Green Bay, which is hit or miss. In all reality, Green Bay has great tradition and is nice, quiet place where a player can focus on football, but the player must want these things.

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 01:09 PM
I would say the chances up us getting Peppers are well less than 1/32.
Same with Big Albert.

But until they go elsewhere, or re-sign with their current teams, we can dream can't we?

PackerLegend
01-17-2009, 01:27 PM
I would say the chances up us getting Peppers are well less than 1/32.
Same with Big Albert.

But until they go elsewhere, or re-sign with their current teams, we can dream can't we?

Less then 1/32 hmm thats possible seeing how there is only 32 teams. I know what your trying to say though. Its obvious your a TT hater. Please dont bring up anymore stupid **** that we have already heard spew out of your mouth366928582750510257285828858232052895082952509 20885728579826658972975877287857827857275872858729 5687209582811827095898638387483 times.

Frankly Bigby you might as well stop posting in this thread. Even if you do post something that is decent, Nobody in here will actaully read it our take it serious because you have dug such a big hole as an annoying ****ing douche!


In the words of Bigby "I AM AFRAID OF CHANGE" thats is why I myself, and everyone doesnt want to listen to this stupid **** anymore. Not because its just ****ing stupid but because we are afraid of change my friend.

Your above post was alright, this rant is stemming from all your 689 worthless posts!

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 01:29 PM
I think TT is an above-average collegiate talent evaluator.
What do you think about TT?

Do you think he has great people skills?

Do you think he's very effective in managing people?

Do you think he's very effective in free agency?

Let's hear your accurate, overall assessment of TT the GM, President of Football Operations.

Go on record, instead of just throwing darts at others.

AND BEGIN.....

PackerLegend
01-17-2009, 01:38 PM
I think TT is an above-average collegiate talent evaluator.
What do you think about TT?

Do you think he has great people skills?

Do you think he's very effective in managing people?

Do you think he's very effective in free agency?

Let's hear your accurate, overall assessment of TT the GM, President of Football Operations.

Go on record, instead of just throwing darts at others.

AND BEGIN.....

TT hasnt been the very best but he has been about as good as any other GM, he has found gems and he has had busts like any GM.

Favre- You said yourself you could have handled that better. Well he got rid of Favre for a pick when we could have got nothing. His choice of picking Rodgers over Favre also meant he was right and picked the better QB in 2008. Not only that self centered Favre is gone, we managed to not upset our franchise QB and we have the ****ing retirement headache off our hands.

He has put us in much better cap health then what we had with Sherman. His free agent signings have been lacking a little but by doing that he also isnt throwing a lump sum of money at some average at best talent that has been in FA. He has brought in Woodson but he is also building throw the draft first, and retaining his key players instead of letting them go and getting free agents.

See Redskins- How well did all their big free agent signings work, how good are they in cap space? Worse, and even worse

And I will just stop now because even if I do add more which I easily could, you will just sit their and blab about a bunch of stupid **** again.

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 01:43 PM
TT hasnt been the very best but he has been about as good as any other GM, he has found gems and he has had busts like any GM.

His free agent signings have been lacking a little......

There you go, in your own honest words.
He's been average in drafting.
And he's been below average in free agency.
That might explain the 6-10 record, or the 3 out of 4 losing seasons under his watch. Good call on your part.

narf029
01-17-2009, 01:49 PM
I think TT is an above-average collegiate talent evaluator.
What do you think about TT?

Do you think he has great people skills?

Do you think he's very effective in managing people?

Do you think he's very effective in free agency?

Let's hear your accurate, overall assessment of TT the GM, President of Football Operations.

Go on record, instead of just throwing darts at others.

AND BEGIN.....

Are you asking the board in general or just feuding with PackerLegend? Cuz I'll take a crack at some of these questions.

I think he is well above average at evaluating talent, though I think he is poor at gauging the other 31 teams' evaluations (which leads to some reaches which end up being alright such as James Jones and Josh Sitton)

I think he has horrendous MEDIA skills, which naturally leads to writers ripping into him because they aren't friends. From what I've heard from several Packer employees is that he's somewhat airy, constantly busy and doing something, but in general his people skills are better than the public knows. I went to the Packer employee Christmas party, and it was optional for Players, coaches, and all other personnel to be there. Thompson was there for 3 out of the 4 hours talking to people, greeting fans who had the courage to go talk to him, and just being friendly in general. He absolutely had no obligation to be there, and the fact that he found time in his schedule to show up showed me that his people skills are more than adequate.

Effective at managing people.. I don't know A) how to describe this, or B) the scale of relevance it has to do with his job. He's good at managing his scouting department and talent evaluators. It seems he pretty much lets McCarthy have his reign over the actual team and coaches, which is what a GM should do, rather than being Al Davis, and calling the coach saying "Go deep!" If you want me to describe managing people differently then let me know, because I don't really know how to describe it.

I love his strategy in free agency. He has a very solid hit/miss percentage, and he doesn't break the bank unless he knows it will work out. For every Drew Brees, there are 2 Nate Clements, and Thompson doesn't waste his money on Free Agents that bust. He also has avoided the Vikings strategy of throwing money at everybody and eventually you'll hit it big. He builds through the draft, with a couple key free agents, rather than building through free agency with a couple key draft picks. I feel this is how the best run teams in the NFL get the job done.

If you have any other Thompson-related questions I'd be more than willing to share my 2 cents.

GB12
01-17-2009, 01:57 PM
I think narf029 did a great job in his opinions so I'll just give my short answers.


What do you think about TT? I think he's a great GM and I've glad to have him. I think that the general fan base and majority of the media are morons on evaluating Ted Thompson, which leads to more and more people being that way. Judging by his overall work as GM of the Packers I'm very pleased with what he has done.

Do you think he has great people skills? Who cares? He is not a motivational speaker, he is a GM.

Do you think he's very effective in managing people? Yes.

Do you think he's very effective in free agency? Absolutely.

PackerLegend
01-17-2009, 01:59 PM
There you go, in your own honest words.
He's been average in drafting.
And he's been below average in free agency.
That might explain the 6-10 record, or the 3 out of 4 losing seasons under his watch. Good call on your part.

No actually you missed it, I sad his free agents signings "may" have been lacking a little but it is also better that he hasnt thrown a **** ton of money at average at best free agents. Instead of doing that he has retained his key players instead of letting them hit the free agent pool.

His drafts

2005
Aaron Rodgers- Stud
Nick Collins- Stud
Poppinga- Solid player for us

2006
AJ Hawk- Above average waiting to break out
Colledge- Solid
Jennings- Stud Stud Stud
Spitz- Solid
Blackmon- Packers have a good returner finally
Jolly- Beastly

2007
Harrell- to early to tell
Brandon Jackson- soon to be a beast
James Jones- Great rookie year, was hurt all year but this kid will be a beast
Rouse- Solid
Korey Hall- Good then was hurt all year this year
Bishop- alright
Crosby- Good and our K for the next 10 years
DeShawn Wynn- has shown signs, time will tell

2008
To early to tell, 2007 was to early as well


4-12 our team blew, and everyone was expecting a full blown rebuild mode. Instead Favre stuck around and will tried to build and win

8-8 a losing season, not really seeing as we were 1 game away from the playoffs

13-3 an int in OT away from the superbowl

6-10 lose like 8 games by chokes in the 4th quarter but thats TT's fault. Not to mention we had a first year QB who was great.

Everyone here realized that by going from Favre to Rodgers their would be bumps in the road. Along with key injuries it led to a down season. Next year will be the year to see what TT has built. As long as injuries stay away I can tell you we will be good.


I also like what TT has done, at times I have questioned some stuff but he has shut me up and proving he did the right thing.

PackerLegend
01-17-2009, 02:04 PM
I think narf029 did a great job in his opinions so I'll just give my short answers.


What do you think about TT? I think he's a great GM and I've glad to have him. I think that the general fan base and majority of the media are morons on evaluating Ted Thompson, which leads to more and more people being that way. Judging by his overall work as GM of the Packers I'm very pleased with what he has done.

Do you think he has great people skills? Who cares? He is not a motivational speaker, he is a GM.

Do you think he's very effective in managing people? Yes.

Do you think he's very effective in free agency? Absolutely.


And I would agree with everything that GB12 has posted here. The great people skills one is classic, i loled

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 02:20 PM
So we've had 1 good season out of 4.
We've had favre for 3 years and a good season from Rodgers in the other 1 year.

And you accept that as a GM doing a great job?
1/4 success rate?

I'll tell you what: this 5th year better be a winner. If it's not, will all you TT-lovers close your eyes some more? How do YOU judge his effectiveness if not by playoffs and wins & losses?

TT had Randy Moss and Tony Gonzalez offered to the Packers on a silver platter, and he couldn't bring them in. They both went on to have career years right after he let them slip away.

I want to like TT, I really do. I know he's about a B-, B, in terms of collegiate talent evaluator, but I would say he's been a C+ at best for us so far..... It's what he LOVES to do. He loves watching young, athletic men, and prodding and observing and evaluating them. He'd scout them 365 days a year if he could. He'd rather not deal with the media and the adult players on the team.

narf029
01-17-2009, 02:36 PM
I'd rather he not deal with the media either. Being a dick to the media has nothing to do with your job. Otherwise Bill Belichick wouldn't get votes for coach of the year every year. As far as a 1/4 success rate. How many teams have had a 13-3 year in the past 4 years? I consider the 8-8 year to be a success because it showed the improvement of the team.

If the team went 6-10 this year by just being worse than the other team the 10 times they lost I'd blame it on Thompson. However, I witnessed at least 4 games, maybe even more where the Packers simply dominated the other team and lost the game. The talent on the field is better than a 6-10 team. I know the term "a win is a win, a loss is a loss" but when it comes to judging a GM tht's not necessarily the case. If we had won half the games that the special teams and playcalling blew in the end, there would be no questions about Thompson's competence.

TitleTown088
01-17-2009, 03:49 PM
TT as a motivational speaker? I'd pay to see that attempt.

Fav packer poll up top? That's tough between Rodgers,Woodson( how the hell is he not on that list), Jennings, Colledge and Kamp. I'll go with Rodgers off the list simply because of his value. Of course my answer would be different if Jordy were on there. That's not coming from the classic Jordy love on this board either, the kid is going to be one hell of a player. He may never make the individual plays Jennings does but hes going to be very important for the offense. His size, strength, and speed are pretty freaking amazing when you think about it. He may not be the quickest off the line, but when he gets going, he's damn fast and not easy to stop. Jennings has the route running down pat and Driver has his little jerky quirk moves. Jordy is just a juggernaut. Watch Bennett try to jam his ass. Not happening.
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d2535c
Not to mention his run blocking. my god his run blocking. http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80c8dd6a @ 2:12

I really think MM is lickin' his chops with the possibilities he can do with Jordy, a WR built fairly near a TE's size. I think in the fufture MM is going to get pretty exotic with him.Call me nuts, but I could even see him possibly get in a couple looks with the Hback.

OK I'm done with my man-love rant.

Oh and of course, Jordyzzzzz.

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 04:29 PM
Jordy is solid.
We also need James Jones to get back to the James Jones we saw in the first half of his rookie season.

neko4
01-17-2009, 05:01 PM
Al Harris... sure he isnt as good as he was in the past, but there is a certain sense of pride that he plays with that I truly admire.

In a 2004 game against Randy Moss, Harris held him to 2 catches for 30 yards (Granted, Moss was hurt that season).
I remember him playing against Marvin Harrison that season, and while the rest of the secondary got torched, Harris held Harrison to 65 yards.

In 2005 he held Steve Smith to 12 yards, Chad Johnson to 62, and Hines Ward to 12.

In 2006 Anquan Boldin (Fitz was hurt) was held to 47 yards, Holt to 40, Colston was held to 58 (but that game was early on so he might have been playing against Horn who had 88 ), and Roy Williams was held to 11 yards in the 2nd meeting (not sure about the first one).

In 2007, Harris began his decline with poor games against TO and others, but Harris remained an imposing cornerback. WRs know that when you play Al Harris, your going to have to fight on every play to get open, and nothing is going to come easily.

AtariBigby
01-17-2009, 05:39 PM
I still love Brother Al, and see him in our plans going forward. He got torched by Plaxico, but he's solid and reliable.

Wish we could give him and Charles 5 more years, fountain of youth potion.

someone447
01-17-2009, 05:56 PM
First off, I am far from a TT lover, I like results. TT has gotten results. There is no way you can blame TT for the 4-12 year the Packers had a few years back. It was Mike Sherman's team, TT could do nothing to salvage that season. I also wouldn't blame this year on TT either. Something like 8 games were lost by fewer than a touchdown? The Packers outscored their opponents this year. TT has done a wonderful job acquiring talent, I just wish he would be a little more aggressive in going for those stars(Moss/Gonzalez.) Hopefully he will make a big play for Peppers, we have the cap space, and that would improve our defense more than the pick up of Woodson.

Bigby, you need to look at things from the big picture. You are just angry about the year the Packers had. Relax and take a step back. The pieces are in place to have a very good team, we just need someone who can rush the passer, and someone who can cover a TE wouldn't hurt.

Whistler6
01-17-2009, 07:04 PM
I don't get how we can all blame TT for a 6-10 season. The players didn't make plays and some of Green Bay's most important players went down with injuries or didnt perform.

I would rather blame Jenkins getting hurt, Tausch getting hurt, 1st year starting QB, young (a bit overrated RB) Ryan Grant, soft defensive line, safety injuries, TERRIBLE punting, etc as to the reason they faileld this year instead of it (all) being TT's fault.

princefielder28
01-17-2009, 07:11 PM
I would rather blame Jenkins getting hurt, Tausch getting hurt, 1st year starting QB, young (a bit overrated RB) Ryan Grant, soft defensive line, safety injuries, TERRIBLE punting, etc as to the reason they faileld this year instead of it (all) being TT's fault.

Scratch Tauscher getting hurt b/c that was late in the year, but you also have a bad argument there too. Alot of the faults that you point out talk about the weaknesses of the players we have on the team, and Thompson is the one who brought those players in and put them together. So, to a certain extent, it is his fault.

Mr.Regular
01-17-2009, 08:30 PM
Anyone else thing Raji @ 9 is a real possibility, especially if Jenkins, Orakpo/Brown, and Monroe/ A.Smith are gone?

mqtirishfan
01-17-2009, 08:31 PM
What exactly are the odds of all 5 of them being gone, with players like Stafford, Crabtree and the LBs around? Not to mention I like Jason Smith a lot.

GB12
01-17-2009, 08:38 PM
Anyone else thing Raji @ 9 is a real possibility, especially if Jenkins, Orakpo/Brown, and Monroe/ A.Smith are gone?
I posted this earlier, but I'll say it again.

You listed 5 guys, then there is Stafford, Crabtree, and Curry who are all top 10 locks. That's 8 players and we pick at 9. I would also take Jason Smith over Raji and maybe Oher. Two of Orakpo, Jenkins, Brown, Smith, Smith, Monroe, and Oher are guaranteed to be there at our pick so it's a no on Raji for me. If we were picking in the 12-14 range I'd consider him, but there are better options for where we are.

jackmadden
01-17-2009, 11:05 PM
There you go, in your own honest words.
He's been average in drafting.
And he's been below average in free agency.
That might explain the 6-10 record, or the 3 out of 4 losing seasons under his watch. Good call on your part.
One of the reasons the Packers haven't spent a lot of money on FAs is that 2010 is going to be an uncapped season unless the owners and player's union get together and work out a deal.

http://www.620wtmj.com/sports/19107024.html

tjsunstein
01-17-2009, 11:08 PM
How can you say TT isn't a people person if you've never met the guy? I really didn't think players cared to hang out with their GM rather than join a potentially successful team.

TitleTown088
01-18-2009, 03:20 AM
Anyone else thing Raji @ 9 is a real possibility, especially if Jenkins, Orakpo/Brown, and Monroe/ A.Smith are gone? I've been thinking this to myself for some time. Typical TT pick.

What was the Packers major problem last season? Run D. Who would fix that? Raji. I'd be very happy with the pick.

AtariBigby
01-18-2009, 09:32 AM
How can you say TT isn't a people person if you've never met the guy? I really didn't think players cared to hang out with their GM rather than join a potentially successful team.
Alright, let me try and put this as delicately as possible.
Some people in today's society don't have a problem interacting with g** (think Ellen Degeneres, Rock Hudson, Richard Simmons) people.
But some still do. To some, it's still a problem, it's still awkward. Nobody wants to talk about it, people are uncomfortable about it. Ask former Packer Esera Tuaola. Football is a man's game.

One day, everyone will know this about TT. Currently, it's one of the better kept secrets. And don't throw darts at me if you don't believe it. It's true. I didn't make it up. Some day it will start being leaked into the mainstream media.

Again, as long as he puts out a team that wins, it doesn't matter to me. But if his 'personality' is part of the reason he fails on getting free agents or top notch coaches to come to our team, then it's a problem.

And TT was named GM of the year last year as we won 13 games.
Then he obviously deserves the opposite accolades for this year's disaster of 6 wins, especially with 3 first & second round NO-HELPS in Harrell, Brohm, and Pat Lee, on top of the fact that he's ignored free agency for those same 2 years. How anyone can ignore that is beyond me. :confused:

jackalope
01-18-2009, 10:18 AM
Alright, let me try and put this as delicately as possible.
Some people in today's society don't have a problem interacting with g** (think Ellen Degeneres, Rock Hudson, Richard Simmons) people.
But some still do. To some, it's still a problem, it's still awkward. Nobody wants to talk about it, people are uncomfortable about it. Ask former Packer Esera Tuaola. Football is a man's game.

One day, everyone will know this about TT. Currently, it's one of the better kept secrets. And don't throw darts at me if you don't believe it. It's true. I didn't make it up. Some day it will start being leaked into the mainstream media.

Again, as long as he puts out a team that wins, it doesn't matter to me. But if his 'personality' is part of the reason he fails on getting free agents or top notch coaches to come to our team, then it's a problem.

And TT was named GM of the year last year as we won 13 games.
Then he obviously deserves the opposite accolades for this year's disaster of 6 wins, especially with 3 first & second round NO-HELPS in Harrell, Brohm, and Pat Lee, on top of the fact that he's ignored free agency for those same 2 years. How anyone can ignore that is beyond me. :confused:

Even if he is ***, how does that give him "bad people skills"? If it's as well kept a secret as you say, the people he's talking to wouldn't know he's ***. Players aren't making decisions on whether they come to a team or not based on if they like the GM. After signing the player, the GM is barely gonna talk to the player in the future. I think we can see now why you really hate Thompson.

AtariBigby
01-18-2009, 11:36 AM
Even if he is ***, how does that give him "bad people skills"? If it's as well kept a secret as you say, the people he's talking to wouldn't know he's ***. Players aren't making decisions on whether they come to a team or not based on if they like the GM. After signing the player, the GM is barely gonna talk to the player in the future. I think we can see now why you really hate Thompson.

No I don't hate Thompson. Hate is a strong word, I try not to ever use, and describing our GM, it's nowhere near hate. I just think he's got some of the skills necessary to be a good GM, but not all of them. He'd make a great head of collegiate scouting though.

But people often wonder why he botches so many things up, from his relationship with Mr Packer Favre, to his free agent dealings, etc.

I'm telling you, players know. Some are bothered by that. Some not so much. Aaron Stecker is a guy from Wisconsin, on the Saints. He said this. If he knows, others know. I'll trust this current NFL player thank you. Also, if you know this you can read between the lines on other things. Go back and read LeRoy Butler's comments during the TT-Favre saga.

narf029
01-18-2009, 11:39 AM
Alright, let me try and put this as delicately as possible.
Some people in today's society don't have a problem interacting with g** (think Ellen Degeneres, Rock Hudson, Richard Simmons) people.
But some still do. To some, it's still a problem, it's still awkward. Nobody wants to talk about it, people are uncomfortable about it. Ask former Packer Esera Tuaola. Football is a man's game.

One day, everyone will know this about TT. Currently, it's one of the better kept secrets. And don't throw darts at me if you don't believe it. It's true. I didn't make it up. Some day it will start being leaked into the mainstream media.

Are you getting this from the same sources that told you there's a 90% chance Green Bay hires Mike Nolan? Seriously where could you have heard this that none of the rest of us could have?

tjsunstein
01-18-2009, 11:55 AM
That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Apparently AtariBigby has inside sources with every team and now with GM's personal lives. Nothing he says with have any creditbility in my book from now on unless there is a link provided. I think we dont land big market FAs because WE ARENT A BIG MARKET!

Twiddler
01-18-2009, 11:58 AM
That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Apparently AtariBigby has inside sources with every team and now with GM's personal lives. Nothing he says with have any creditbility in my book from now on unless there is a link provided. I think we dont land big market FAs because WE ARENT A BIG MARKET!

Exactly, its almost like Green Bay, Wisconsin isn't as attractive as places like Florida and California to many free agents! Shocking!

princefielder28
01-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Are you getting this from the same sources that told you there's a 90% chance Green Bay hires Mike Nolan? Seriously where could you have heard this that none of the rest of us could have?

I can confirm Atari's claim of TT's relationship interests being of the same gender. Not a big deal to me but it is true.

TitleTown088
01-18-2009, 01:10 PM
Note: not trying to make this a religious post. just an observation about Ted.

I've read that Ted Thompson is a hardcore-straight line Christian(not that only non Christians are ***), I doubt he's "attracted to males". And I really doubt any of you can prove it if it were. This is probably some ridiculous rumor you guys have heard.

Regardless, it's irrelevant to his job as GM. let it go.

neko4
01-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Atari:

Is TT supposed to magically heal Al Harris, Cullen Jenkins, Mark Tauscher, and any other injured players we had?

Obviously if a team loses a close game, then that means that the talent is there, the PLAYERS just have to work a little harder or be more focused.
Do want TT to go out there and play CB and keep Steve Smith from torching the secondary in the 4th quarter?

Also why do you expect rookies to be big in their first couple of years? Some do well early on (Greg Jennings) and others take time (Pat Lee).

And why do you think FA will solve everything? Who knows if Randy Moss wouldve had the same effect in GB that he had in NE? He and the Packers have had a shakey relationship and there couldve been some bad feelings on the team. And plenty of teams spend more money on FA's than their draft picks and theyre often less sucessful than us (Washington)

bearsfan_51
01-18-2009, 02:11 PM
No I don't hate Thompson. Hate is a strong word, I try not to ever use, and describing our GM, it's nowhere near hate. I just think he's got some of the skills necessary to be a good GM, but not all of them. He'd make a great head of collegiate scouting though.

But people often wonder why he botches so many things up, from his relationship with Mr Packer Favre, to his free agent dealings, etc.

I'm telling you, players know. Some are bothered by that. Some not so much. Aaron Stecker is a guy from Wisconsin, on the Saints. He said this. If he knows, others know. I'll trust this current NFL player thank you. Also, if you know this you can read between the lines on other things. Go back and read LeRoy Butler's comments during the TT-Favre saga.
You deserve to be gutted and hung off the edge of a bridge.

PACKmanN
01-18-2009, 02:22 PM
No I don't hate Thompson. Hate is a strong word, I try not to ever use, and describing our GM, it's nowhere near hate. I just think he's got some of the skills necessary to be a good GM, but not all of them. He'd make a great head of collegiate scouting though.

But people often wonder why he botches so many things up, from his relationship with Mr Packer Favre, to his free agent dealings, etc.

I'm telling you, players know. Some are bothered by that. Some not so much. Aaron Stecker is a guy from Wisconsin, on the Saints. He said this. If he knows, others know. I'll trust this current NFL player thank you. Also, if you know this you can read between the lines on other things. Go back and read LeRoy Butler's comments during the TT-Favre saga.

right, but you don't list the names of players in the NFL or broadcasting on how they thought how Favre was handling this...and what did TT do wrong? your just one o those guys who believe the Packers are nothing without Favre and everything with the Packers revolves around Favre. Plus at this point of their careers, Rodgers is the better qb.

AtariBigby
01-18-2009, 03:58 PM
I can confirm Atari's claim of TT's relationship interests being of the same gender. Not a big deal to me but it is true.
PrinceFielder,
Can you explain to me the rampant denial of all these other so-called Packer fans? You're the only one with either A) ballz to accept it or B) a brain to understand it

your just one o those guys who believe the Packers are nothing without Favre and everything with the Packers revolves around Favre. Plus at this point of their careers, Rodgers is the better qb.

As for me being a Favre-first guy: that's a crock of manure.
I post on PackersPlanet all the time, and have thousands of posts on FootballsFuture, and I was accused of being a Favre-hater because A) I blamed Favre for retiring in the first place when we all expected him back after 13-3, B) because I always pointed out that he always choked in the playoffs with horrible Ints, C) He only has won 1 Super Bowl (same as Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson) and that one wouldn't have been possible without Reggie White, and D) I personally know Aaron Rodgers dad, Dr Edward Rodgers. He personally told me a lot of things about the team and Favre behind the scenes, which I didn't reveal as promised. I'm an AROD guy, not Favre. Favre was a playoff catastrophe every year since 1997.

Where Ted went wrong was when he, Ted, lied about the Randy Moss thing. Cold stone lie. If you guys ever have a powerful position with a Fortune 500 company, but get publicly betrayed by the CEO, you'll know what that felt like to Favre.

Listen, most of the kids here will believe whatever they want, or what their dad says. You guys think the Eagles defense is as great as the Steelers and Ravens defense, and I know you won't let a think like Larry Fitzgerald gutting them for 3 TDs in the 1st half today change your mind.

So whatever. At least I know there's one other MAN in here with the Prince showing a pair.

princefielder28
01-18-2009, 04:05 PM
PrinceFielder,
Can you explain to me the rampant denial of all these other so-called Packer fans? You're the only one with either A) ballz to accept it or B) a brain to understand it


TT's personal life isn't that big of a deal but i have seen him in public quite a few times and a couple of those occurences came while he was on a "man date." How do I know it wasn't just a friendly dinner? Just trust me.

End of topic

AtariBigby
01-18-2009, 04:23 PM
TT's personal life isn't that big of a deal but i have seen him in public quite a few times and a couple of those occurences came while he was on a "man date." How do I know it wasn't just a friendly dinner? Just trust me.

End of topic
Yep, end of topic.
Now instead of the kids accusing me of lying or making this up, they can just use the line that "it shouldn't matter", or "it doesn't matter".

PACKmanN
01-18-2009, 05:39 PM
PrinceFielder,
Can you explain to me the rampant denial of all these other so-called Packer fans? You're the only one with either A) ballz to accept it or B) a brain to understand it



As for me being a Favre-first guy: that's a crock of manure.
I post on PackersPlanet all the time, and have thousands of posts on FootballsFuture, and I was accused of being a Favre-hater because A) I blamed Favre for retiring in the first place when we all expected him back after 13-3, B) because I always pointed out that he always choked in the playoffs with horrible Ints, C) He only has won 1 Super Bowl (same as Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson) and that one wouldn't have been possible without Reggie White, and D) I personally know Aaron Rodgers dad, Dr Edward Rodgers. He personally told me a lot of things about the team and Favre behind the scenes, which I didn't reveal as promised. I'm an AROD guy, not Favre. Favre was a playoff catastrophe every year since 1997.

Where Ted went wrong was when he, Ted, lied about the Randy Moss thing. Cold stone lie. If you guys ever have a powerful position with a Fortune 500 company, but get publicly betrayed by the CEO, you'll know what that felt like to Favre.

Listen, most of the kids here will believe whatever they want, or what their dad says. You guys think the Eagles defense is as great as the Steelers and Ravens defense, and I know you won't let a think like Larry Fitzgerald gutting them for 3 TDs in the 1st half today change your mind.

So whatever. At least I know there's one other MAN in here with the Prince showing a pair.
Yes Larry Fitzgerald and Boldin are both bums and should never play in the NFL again, wait.

Ted never lied about Moss, he had interest in him, almost landed him but NE wanted his services and Moss then decided he wanted to be a Patriot, what is so hard to believe...

I don't care what you say on other forums. So far in these forums you made it be known that your immature with calling people names, even though you make it be known that your older then all of us here on the forums, you disrespect TT as a GM, You wanted Mike Nolan to coach the Packers defense and felt it was going to happen, and you think your a better talent evaluator then most of the GMs in the league.

Whistler6
01-18-2009, 05:44 PM
Bigby dude cool it. It's clear you're an avad fan of football with a great amount of knowledge for the game. Whether people agree with you or not just let some things go.

At first I read what you had to say, but now I just glaze past everything because most of it is bad mouthing and personal attacks.

Gosh man it's a fan forum, nothing more.

jackalope
01-18-2009, 05:53 PM
PrinceFielder,
Can you explain to me the rampant denial of all these other so-called Packer fans? You're the only one with either A) ballz to accept it or B) a brain to understand it


I never denied that he was ***, I'll believe that. I simply questioned why this has a negative effect on his people skills, which it doesn't. I honestly don't care, I know plenty of *** people, and I'm sure there are more in the NFL. This whole, people who agree with me have huge balls thing is annoying, as well as your random insults on people (hokeyface). If you believe that you're so much better than everyone else on this forum, than I suggest you don't post here.

AtariBigby
01-18-2009, 05:58 PM
Ted never lied about Moss, he had interest in him, almost landed him but NE wanted his services and Moss then decided he wanted to be a Patriot, what is so hard to believe.
The more you say, the more you really make yourself to be a fool.

My best friend talked to Bus Cook at Jay Cutler's celebrity golf event in Denver last year, a few months before the Favre stuff began.

I knew it was coming from what he told me then.

Some other things he told me were that Favre and Moss, with Bus, are the ones who engineered Moss' escape from Oakland. That deal was on a silver platter for TT for weeks before the draft even started. Favre lobbied hard for it to Ted, to Mike, it was no secret.

Now when Ted was interviewed after it all had fallen apart and Moss had ended up on New England, TT denied the reporters question when he asked him if Favre had wanted Moss, or had said that he wanted Moss. Thompson said "not that he was aware of". That's 100% total BS, and if you've ever been in a situation like that, you'd understand. And remember, I'm no Favre-lover but still, that was horsecrap in TTs part. It was bad enough that he wouldn't do it because it wasn't his idea, but adding the public lie about Favre's support of it...... pathetic.

AtariBigby
01-18-2009, 06:00 PM
PS, I still need almost 300 points to hit the -1000 plateau.
A little help please.

neko4
01-18-2009, 06:09 PM
The more you say, the more you really make yourself to be a fool.

My best friend talked to Bus Cook at Jay Cutler's celebrity golf event in Denver last year, a few months before the Favre stuff began.

I knew it was coming from what he told me then.

Some other things he told me were that Favre and Moss, with Bus, are the ones who engineered Moss' escape from Oakland. That deal was on a silver platter for TT for weeks before the draft even started. Favre lobbied hard for it to Ted, to Mike, it was no secret.

Now when Ted was interviewed after it all had fallen apart and Moss had ended up on New England, TT denied the reporters question when he asked him if Favre had wanted Moss, or had said that he wanted Moss. Thompson said "not that he was aware of". That's 100% total BS, and if you've ever been in a situation like that, you'd understand. And remember, I'm no Favre-lover but still, that was horsecrap in TTs part. It was bad enough that he wouldn't do it because it wasn't his idea, but adding the public lie about Favre's support of it...... pathetic.

I am a Favre-lover, but he isnt the GM of that team. Ted is. He can lobby as he wish, but he doesnt make the decisions. Ted does. Yes, its wrong that Ted lied, but he knows better than Favre does. Thats why Ted is a GM and Favre is a QB.

AtariBigby
01-18-2009, 06:13 PM
I am a Favre-lover, but he isnt the GM of that team. Ted is. He can lobby as he wish, but he doesnt make the decisions. Ted does. Yes, its wrong that Ted lied, but he knows better than Favre does. Thats why Ted is a GM and Favre is a QB.
Actually, the GMs are also human.
They also: A) make mistakes, B) don't always know-it-all, C) can listen to their coaches AND players, especially one like Favre was was almost larger than life

And you're right, the lying is inexcusable.

jackalope
01-18-2009, 06:14 PM
The more you say, the more you really make yourself to be a fool.

My best friend talked to Bus Cook at Jay Cutler's celebrity golf event in Denver last year, a few months before the Favre stuff began.

I knew it was coming from what he told me then.

Some other things he told me were that Favre and Moss, with Bus, are the ones who engineered Moss' escape from Oakland. That deal was on a silver platter for TT for weeks before the draft even started. Favre lobbied hard for it to Ted, to Mike, it was no secret.

Now when Ted was interviewed after it all had fallen apart and Moss had ended up on New England, TT denied the reporters question when he asked him if Favre had wanted Moss, or had said that he wanted Moss. Thompson said "not that he was aware of". That's 100% total BS, and if you've ever been in a situation like that, you'd understand. And remember, I'm no Favre-lover but still, that was horsecrap in TTs part. It was bad enough that he wouldn't do it because it wasn't his idea, but adding the public lie about Favre's support of it...... pathetic.

That really doesn't bother me at all. He made a decision that he didn't want to make the trade for Moss, and Favre's opinion shouldn't effect that. As for not making a comment on Favre's opinion, who cares? Maybe he shouldn't have said that, but he left it up to Favre to say what he wanted to the media. If Favre had been a good sport about it, he could have said that he didn't have a preferance about bringing in Moss. Either way, it's not a big deal.

AtariBigby
01-18-2009, 06:16 PM
Either way, it's not a big deal.
Not a big deal huh?
This was the catalyst for the erosion of the Favre-relationship with Packers management, and led to what happened last August. Whether it should have been or not, or who's fault it was, IT WAS A BIG DEAL. Be real dude.

neko4
01-18-2009, 06:18 PM
Actually, the GMs are also human.
They also: A) make mistakes, B) don't always know-it-all, C) can listen to their coaches AND players, especially one like Favre was was almost larger than life

And you're right, the lying is inexcusable.

A- yes he does make mistakes
B- He knows better than Favre, not know it all
C- Favre is a man like you and I. He is not larger than life. I may worship him like a god whens he on the field, but off of it he is another man like you and I and his recent decision have been questionable.

I didnt say the lying was inexcusable, just wrong. I have already excused him.

Oh BTW, Ted doesnt tell Favre what reads he supposed to make. He doesnt tell him what plays to call. The coaches are there to advise him, just like the scouts are there to advise Ted.

jackalope
01-18-2009, 06:22 PM
Not a big deal huh?
This was the catalyst for the erosion of the Favre-relationship with Packers management, and led to what happened last August. Whether it should have been or not, or who's fault it was, IT WAS A BIG DEAL. Be real dude.

I think Favre deciding to unretire and expect his starting job is what led to the problems in August. He may not have liked Thompson because of this, but that's not what made him decide to come back. I hate the fact that Favre diminished his relationship with the Packers, but we got a 3rd round pick out of it and it's behind us.

TitleTown088
01-18-2009, 06:39 PM
TT's personal life isn't that big of a deal but i have seen him in public quite a few times and a couple of those occurences came while he was on a "man date." How do I know it wasn't just a friendly dinner? Just trust me.

End of topic
What was teddy boy cranking some guy off under the table a dinner?

I don't buy it.

PackerLegend
01-18-2009, 11:07 PM
WTF has this thread turned into.... its become completely worthless as of late with nothing really of use being posted.

Favre hung this team out by taking forever to decide. I still don't see how he needs like 4 months. He created that mess not TT. I wont go any farther because I rather not listen to that crap anymore.