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bigbluedefense
03-08-2008, 12:29 PM
aren't they 20 mill over the cap? where's all the cuts?

and i heard they can get Hall? How? Theyre 20 mill over the cap. Can someone fill me in on this. It doesn't make any sense.

703SKINS202
03-08-2008, 12:31 PM
i think they are 8 million under right now give me a sec to find the link.... for as dumb as snyder is at spending money the one thing he is great at is working around the salary cap

bigbluedefense
03-08-2008, 12:32 PM
i think they are 8 million under right now give me a sec to find the link.... for as dumb as snyder is at spending money the one thing he is great at is working around the salary cap

so they were never 20 mill over? or did they make cuts to get under?

21ST
03-08-2008, 12:36 PM
so they were never 20 mill over? or did they make cuts to get under?

We re-did the contracts like we always do to get under. We were 20 mill over though.

Thunder&Lightning
03-08-2008, 12:37 PM
ya i thought they were over too id like to see that link. thats a lot of cuts to get under.

703SKINS202
03-08-2008, 12:37 PM
so they were never 20 mill over? or did they make cuts to get under?

i think they were, we really didnt make any huge cuts but brunell gave us something like 7 or 8 off and snyder is just really good at renegotiating contracts with players and they are willing cause they get more gauranteed money from him

heres the latest from a redskins local reporter
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/

"The Skins officially saved $2.4 million on Clinton Portis's new deal and are now $7.7 million under the cap, plenty of room to make a big move. Vinny Cerrato is telling everyone and anyone that the team is doing nothing. They have gone from one extreme to the other, and even with the draft as a priority now, they'd better add a quality player at either CB or WR this off season outside of the draft. Just my opinion."

Addict
03-08-2008, 12:38 PM
I don't know what Sean Taylor's contract was worht, but obviously they won't be paying him anymore. Morbid, but cap-wise that did help them.

21ST
03-08-2008, 12:41 PM
so they were never 20 mill over? or did they make cuts to get under?

I think we only cut 1 person

bigbluedefense
03-08-2008, 12:46 PM
wow. the man knows his dollars, i'll give him that.

critesy
03-08-2008, 12:55 PM
aren't they 20 mill over the cap? where's all the cuts?

and i heard they can get Hall? How? Theyre 20 mill over the cap. Can someone fill me in on this. It doesn't make any sense.


hall as in.. deangelo?!?! :)

bigbluedefense
03-08-2008, 01:00 PM
hall as in.. deangelo?!?! :)

haha. it wouldn't shock me. you'll probably lose your 1st for him though.

neko4
03-08-2008, 01:00 PM
I don't know what Sean Taylor's contract was worht, but obviously they won't be paying him anymore. Morbid, but cap-wise that did help them.
well whenever a great player retires/dies, they always give one last gift to their team. its still doesnt make up for the loss of Sean Taylor though (or in my case Brett Favre)

flave1969
03-08-2008, 01:09 PM
They cut one player in Brandon Lloyd who will be a June 1st Cut.

They voided Rock Cartwright(who re-signed today) and Mark Brunell.

The re-structured Chris Cooley's 11 million roster bonus over the life of his contract, that turned an 12.2 million cap hit into a 4.4 million hit.

Portis, Samuels, Jansen, Carter, Thomas and Daniels also restructured their deals.

Moss and Griffin are also likely to restructure their deals

That is how you get from 20 million over to 8 million under.

critesy
03-08-2008, 06:35 PM
haha. it wouldn't shock me. you'll probably lose your 1st for him though.

i wouldnt care if we lost a 1st for him, he's better than any corner you're going to get in the draft and he is younger than some as well.

Flyboy
03-08-2008, 06:58 PM
well whenever a great player retires/dies, they always give one last gift to their team. its still doesnt make up for the loss of Sean Taylor though (or in my case Brett Favre)

Except Brett Favre isn't DEAD.

Suits
03-08-2008, 07:10 PM
Hey guys, this is my first post and I just wanted to say that I love what I read around nfldc. Quality forum you've got going here.

Anyway, there's a common misconception that the Redskins are in "cap hell" every offseason because of the massive contracts they give out. Really, Dan Snyder has found a clever way to get around the cap system for the most part.

The Redskins' contracts are almost always six or seven year deals where the money is backloaded to the last three or four years to minimize short-term cap numbers. If the player makes it to the last few years of his contract, Snyder tells them he will restructure their contract, converting the base salary (that counts against the cap) into gauranteed money that doesn't count against the cap. The players almost always accept the restructured contracts because they are of equal value.

Basically, because Snyder is willing to throw around gauranteed money he is able to circumvent the cap. This is how the Skins get out of cap hell and sign so many free agents every year. As a skins fan, it took me about three years of fearing "cap hell" before I realized that snyder knew what he was doing (with money at least)

toonsterwu
03-08-2008, 07:12 PM
I'm still surprised the Redskins haven't made a move for DJ Hackett, considering there isn't much of a market out there for him right now. He seems to be a perfect fit (bigger receiver, knows the system).

The Unseen
03-08-2008, 07:17 PM
Except Brett Favre isn't DEAD.

He said retires/dies.

eaglesfan_45
03-08-2008, 07:24 PM
Hey guys, this is my first post and I just wanted to say that I love what I read around nfldc. Quality forum you've got going here.

Anyway, there's a common misconception that the Redskins are in "cap hell" every offseason because of the massive contracts they give out. Really, Dan Snyder has found a clever way to get around the cap system for the most part.

The Redskins' contracts are almost always six or seven year deals where the money is backloaded to the last three or four years to minimize short-term cap numbers. If the player makes it to the last few years of his contract, Snyder tells them he will restructure their contract, converting the base salary (that counts against the cap) into gauranteed money that doesn't count against the cap. The players almost always accept the restructured contracts because they are of equal value.

Basically, because Snyder is willing to throw around gauranteed money he is able to circumvent the cap. This is how the Skins get out of cap hell and sign so many free agents every year. As a skins fan, it took me about three years of fearing "cap hell" before I realized that snyder knew what he was doing (with money at least)

welcome, were you a lurker?

skinzzfan25
03-08-2008, 07:24 PM
Welcome to the site Suits, excellent first post :)

21ST
03-08-2008, 11:29 PM
I'm still surprised the Redskins haven't made a move for DJ Hackett, considering there isn't much of a market out there for him right now. He seems to be a perfect fit (bigger receiver, knows the system).

I think he is to injury prone for us

bigbluedefense
03-08-2008, 11:29 PM
Hey guys, this is my first post and I just wanted to say that I love what I read around nfldc. Quality forum you've got going here.

Anyway, there's a common misconception that the Redskins are in "cap hell" every offseason because of the massive contracts they give out. Really, Dan Snyder has found a clever way to get around the cap system for the most part.

The Redskins' contracts are almost always six or seven year deals where the money is backloaded to the last three or four years to minimize short-term cap numbers. If the player makes it to the last few years of his contract, Snyder tells them he will restructure their contract, converting the base salary (that counts against the cap) into gauranteed money that doesn't count against the cap. The players almost always accept the restructured contracts because they are of equal value.

Basically, because Snyder is willing to throw around gauranteed money he is able to circumvent the cap. This is how the Skins get out of cap hell and sign so many free agents every year. As a skins fan, it took me about three years of fearing "cap hell" before I realized that snyder knew what he was doing (with money at least)

excellent post. welcome to the board.

bigbluedefense
03-08-2008, 11:31 PM
i wouldnt care if we lost a 1st for him, he's better than any corner you're going to get in the draft and he is younger than some as well.

better? we won't know that for another 4 years. what we do know is though, he'll be more expensive than any of the rookie CBs.

thats the reason why im hoping my Giants draft best available CB opposed to trading for Hall. Although i wouldn't mind Hall at all, i think financially its a smarter move to draft CB in our position.

21ST
03-09-2008, 08:38 AM
I would have no problem giving up our first for hall. He is the only corner that we can get that would be an automatic upgrade.

619
03-09-2008, 08:48 AM
Hey guys, this is my first post and I just wanted to say that I love what I read around nfldc. Quality forum you've got going here.

Anyway, there's a common misconception that the Redskins are in "cap hell" every offseason because of the massive contracts they give out. Really, Dan Snyder has found a clever way to get around the cap system for the most part.

The Redskins' contracts are almost always six or seven year deals where the money is backloaded to the last three or four years to minimize short-term cap numbers. If the player makes it to the last few years of his contract, Snyder tells them he will restructure their contract, converting the base salary (that counts against the cap) into gauranteed money that doesn't count against the cap. The players almost always accept the restructured contracts because they are of equal value.

Basically, because Snyder is willing to throw around gauranteed money he is able to circumvent the cap. This is how the Skins get out of cap hell and sign so many free agents every year. As a skins fan, it took me about three years of fearing "cap hell" before I realized that snyder knew what he was doing (with money at least)

Well, that was a joy to read. Thanks for the info and welcome to the board! :)

OzTitan
03-09-2008, 09:52 AM
Hey guys, this is my first post and I just wanted to say that I love what I read around nfldc. Quality forum you've got going here.

Anyway, there's a common misconception that the Redskins are in "cap hell" every offseason because of the massive contracts they give out. Really, Dan Snyder has found a clever way to get around the cap system for the most part.

The Redskins' contracts are almost always six or seven year deals where the money is backloaded to the last three or four years to minimize short-term cap numbers. If the player makes it to the last few years of his contract, Snyder tells them he will restructure their contract, converting the base salary (that counts against the cap) into gauranteed money that doesn't count against the cap. The players almost always accept the restructured contracts because they are of equal value.

Basically, because Snyder is willing to throw around gauranteed money he is able to circumvent the cap. This is how the Skins get out of cap hell and sign so many free agents every year. As a skins fan, it took me about three years of fearing "cap hell" before I realized that snyder knew what he was doing (with money at least)

Nice first post, but not quite right :) By converting to signing bonus, it still counts, it's just prorated over the contract's life.

Say a player is set to make $10M in base salary in his 3rd last season under contract, he can restructure it to a signing bonus of, say, $9M with $1M still left as base salary. That $9M is paid out straight away, but since it is now a "signing bonus", it's spread out over the life of the deal cap wise. So if there are 3 years left, it will count $3M against the cap in each of the remaining years. Therefore, instead of a $10M base salary in the current year, he has a $1M base salary and $3M of his new signing bonus counting against the cap - a $6M saving for the current year.

The thing is though, it can only be done to base salaries - he would have had a signing bonus for the prior deal as well, so it's previous prorated cap value for that 3rd last year would remain as is even after the restructuring. If he originally signed a 5 year deal with $15M in signing bonus, $3M would already be on the books for that 3rd last year. So basically, this move changed his 3rd last year cap number from $13M to $7M, but by doing so, it added more guaranteed money to the final 2 years of the deal, which means the player is more of a long term commitment than ever. Might be hard to get rid of if he isn't working out.

Obviously not every owner can do this - all that signing bonus money isn't easy to come by for some teams. The process is called "Cash over cap", and it can help give teams with more immediate cash assets sign and retain players. In any given year, Snyder could overspend the cap limit by more $M's than some teams have to play with signing bonus wise.

It's not without future consequences though, and it certainly isn't a "way around the cap". If it wasn't for the nicely timed CBA extension with the cap spikes, the Redskins wouldn't be as comfortable right now (along with a few other teams). It's pretty hard to be in cap hell when the cap spikes up as much as it has lately. It is still merely a way of selling the future cap health for the immediate team's sake. It is definitely a little more advanced than normal methods of spending for now and paying for it later, but it does catch up. It's really just pushing money around, not making it disappear. One year, Snyder may find there is no possible way to push that money around with his player contracts anymore, and it will be impossible for him to fit under. There was a rumor that could have been the case in 06 had the CBA not been extended.

The Legend
03-09-2008, 01:20 PM
They are $19.5 million OVER the 2008 cap as we sit here this morning. That means they're $25 million worse-off than any team in the NFL entering the offseason.
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/11/19/redskins-in-salary-cap-hell-in-2008/

critesy
03-09-2008, 02:17 PM
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/11/19/redskins-in-salary-cap-hell-in-2008/


well thank god that wasnt posted in november.

nobodyinparticular
03-09-2008, 02:52 PM
The re-structured Chris Cooley's 11 million roster bonus over the life of his contract, that turned an 12.2 million cap hit into a 4.4 million hit.

$11 million roster bonus? There's no way anyone would ever actually see an $11 million roster bonus. I'm starting to think that Snyder gives these types of contracts out just to perpetuate the idea that the Redskins are always in cap trouble.

Ok, so that was a little tongue in cheek. However, it's true that no one would ever actually see $11 million handed to them in a roster bonus. What the large roster bonus actually does, is it gives the team (in this case the Redskins) the flexibility to look at a player a couple years after signing the contract to see if he's actually worth that much money. If he is, you do what the Redskins did and give him the money in the form of a signing bonus. If he's not, then you tell him to re-structure the deal by taking a paycut or he'll get cut. Why don't they just add the $11 million in the original signing bonus you ask? This is vastly better than just adding that $11 million onto the original signing bonus, because if you get to the 2nd or 3rd year and see that the player is not actually worth the money, you're in a heck of a lot of trouble. Again, much more flexibility in being able to decide whether or not the player is good enough for that much money

In a practical sense, it also allows the team to split up large amounts of money over a few years rather than one fat check. Let's be honest, even football franchises worth over a billion dollars can have trouble handing out checks for $30 million at a time on top of the $90-100 million in base salaries/roster bonuses. (plus the payroll of coaches, scouts, other staff, maintenance and other fees for the stadium, etc.) So what you see teams doing, especially with top 5 rookie contracts, is splitting up the $30 million signing bonus into 2 sections with an "option bonus" coming the next offseason. It's an option bonus because the team has the option of picking up the contract or not. If not, the player becomes a free agent. However, in terms of rookie contracts, to ensure that the player gets all the money, these are usually guaranteed to where even if the team decides not to pick up the option, the player still gets the same amount of money.

All this to say, Snyder (or whoever actually does the contract negotiations for him) was really smart with that Cooley contract. It's the first time I've seen something like that (although obviously I don't see every NFL player's contract) and it's a really good move on his part.

LonghornsLegend
03-09-2008, 02:56 PM
I kept telling people it was pretty pointless to say things like the Redskins cant afford Deangelo Hall, or anyone else for that matter...Snyder spends money and makes it work, and he has no problem trading draft picks for high priced players.

BaLLiN
03-09-2008, 03:07 PM
I kept telling people it was pretty pointless to say things like the Redskins cant afford Deangelo Hall, or anyone else for that matter...Snyder spends money and makes it work, and he has no problem trading draft picks for high priced players.

That was me who said it, but i only said it about redskins.

Jughead10
03-10-2008, 07:53 AM
It's not without future consequences though, and it certainly isn't a "way around the cap". If it wasn't for the nicely timed CBA extension with the cap spikes, the Redskins wouldn't be as comfortable right now (along with a few other teams). It's pretty hard to be in cap hell when the cap spikes up as much as it has lately. It is still merely a way of selling the future cap health for the immediate team's sake. It is definitely a little more advanced than normal methods of spending for now and paying for it later, but it does catch up. It's really just pushing money around, not making it disappear. One year, Snyder may find there is no possible way to push that money around with his player contracts anymore, and it will be impossible for him to fit under. There was a rumor that could have been the case in 06 had the CBA not been extended.

This is a good point. The last two years the salary cap has jumped in very large amounts to the CBA agreement. Thats why you see these crazy contracts and so many teams with 20-30 million in cap room. Starting with next year, the increases in the salary cap should be much more minimal than they have the last two years. Could be why the Skins, despite getting under the cap this year, haven't made many moves. It won't be as easy for them to get under the cap next year.

TyronePoole38
03-10-2008, 08:39 AM
They cut one player in Brandon Lloyd who will be a June 1st Cut.



Lloyd is not a June 1st cut. He is already cut and signed with Chicago. ;)

flave1969
03-10-2008, 05:07 PM
Lloyd is not a June 1st cut. He is already cut and signed with Chicago. ;)

You can now cut two players ahead of June 1st and split the money in the same way as the old rule. You do not have to wait anymore.

flave1969
03-10-2008, 05:44 PM
This is a good point. The last two years the salary cap has jumped in very large amounts to the CBA agreement. Thats why you see these crazy contracts and so many teams with 20-30 million in cap room. Starting with next year, the increases in the salary cap should be much more minimal than they have the last two years. Could be why the Skins, despite getting under the cap this year, haven't made many moves. It won't be as easy for them to get under the cap next year.

Next year I think you are going to see some major cuts in the roster, for instance I just can't see our top three salaried players this year being on the roster next year (Springs, Washington, and Griffin) and not because of money. Right there if they were to be let go you are looking at somewhere in the region of $15 million in savings.

Adding up the Top 51 contracts for next year, which will change because of the draft signings. They stand at 120 million, if you add in Brandon Lloyds Dead Cap that totals around $124 million, for 09 we have no more Dead Cap right now. That will change I am sure by the end of the summer.

At the appropriate time next year I think you will see the Redskins around $10-$12 million under the 2009 cap.

Pacific
03-10-2008, 05:54 PM
Snyder is probably also doing his financial planning knowing that there is a good chance there won't be a salary cap in a few years when the CBA runs out.

yourfavestoner
03-10-2008, 06:09 PM
I keep seeing that you believe the cap will be a thing of the past shortly. Why do you believe this?
Vic: I’m starting to think that way because I see teams operating decidedly against the spirit of the cap; almost in contempt of it. Washington is the best example. The Redskins have been pushing the revenue envelope in a big way, which, of course, drives the cap higher and higher and makes it more difficult for small-market, low-revenue teams to keep their heads above water. The Redskins know that. The Redskins have also been pushing the cap envelope in a big way and wouldn’t have been able to get under the cap in 2006 if there hadn’t been a new CBA. They could find themselves back in that situation in ’09 if owners vote no on the current CBA on Nov. 8, something I have to believe the Redskins didn’t believe would happen. If ’09 is to be the last capped year, then something called a “30 percent rule” will be invoked and that’ll restrict the Redskins’ ability to convert base salary into signing bonus, which is a popular way of creating cap room. If ’09 is to be the last capped year, the Redskins could possibly find themselves unable to get under the cap or having to cut anybody who represents a cap savings. For the cap system to work, all of the teams have to be on board with it; all teams have to operate respectfully of the cap system and within the spirit of its intent. If a few teams want to kill it, they can, and I’m seeing teams that want to kill it.

http://jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=6803

There you go.

OzTitan
03-10-2008, 08:04 PM
Seems to me they should just tighten up cap policy regarding 'cash over cap' conduct for any new CBA - sure most owners would agree.

And this is what I meant for 06-07 where the Redskins apparently may not have been able to fit under the cap then either if it wasn't for the CBA extension. Didn't know there was a "30% rule" though, thanks for adding that.

Suits
03-11-2008, 09:20 PM
Thanks for the correction Oz, I didn't realize the signing bonus was spread over the life of the contract.

Also a very good point about the growth of the cap. I still have a hard time believing some of the contracts (Pace, Walker) people are receiving in free agency. No doubt Snyder's contracts in recent years have pushed the price of free agents through the roof.

Side Note: I was a lurker, but I have changed my ways :)

bsaza2358
03-12-2008, 08:57 AM
I'm still surprised the Redskins haven't made a move for DJ Hackett, considering there isn't much of a market out there for him right now. He seems to be a perfect fit (bigger receiver, knows the system).

Hackett is scheduled for a FA visit today.