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View Full Version : Could Matt Ryan and Glenn Dorsey both fall out of the top 10?


IndyColtScout
03-18-2008, 01:34 PM
IMO, Dorsey is out of the top 10 and struggling to be top 20. I really don't see teams willing to pay that much money on the chance that Dorsey could one day be healthy.

Matt Ryan is the interesting one here IMO. If no one falls in love with him in the top 10, is there a chance he has a Quinn/Rodgers like slide? IMO if the Dolphins, Falcons, Chiefs, and Ravens all pass... I don't know where he lands. I don't see CAR or CHI drafting Ryan.

Could both these guys fall out of the top 10? top 20?

Geo
03-18-2008, 01:39 PM
I'll be surprised if Baltimore doesn't jump at drafting Ryan if he's there for them. Then again, I didn't think Quinn would get past Miami last year, so who knows.

As for Dorsey, I think way too much overanalysis is going on. He's an elite player, he would have definitely been a Top 10 pick last year. The guy took a cheap shot from an Auburn lineman this year, which obviously affected him until he could heal up some for the bowl game, but he didn't miss a game I believe. I just can't see him getting out of the Top 10 myself.

Seasonticketholder
03-18-2008, 01:43 PM
No. If Dorsey is there at #10, there is NO WAY New Orleans passes on him.

IndyColtScout
03-18-2008, 01:45 PM
Well this is why I think Dorsey is out...

Everyone knows he is an elite talent, but look at the way injuries affect draft stock in today's NFL draft.

Personally, I think a lot of people have Ellis ahead of Dorsey because of injury issues. This is where it gets a little hairy. In my eyes, Ellis is slipping which will in turn cause a chain reaction for Dorsey. Though Ellis had a crazy senior bowl, his combine was really subpar. Teams are wondering if his explosion off the line is because of inferior talent he faces on the OL in the NCAA or if his play/motor outweighs his numbers. At the earliest, I see Ellis going #10 to NO. If Ellis were to slip to #10, I see no way Dorsey goes until CHI and I don't think CHI will draft Dorsey. I think if Dorsey were to fall, TB at #20 would be the logical choice.

Teams get scared of investing millions in a guy who they can't see work out and has red flag injury issues.

regoob2
03-18-2008, 01:45 PM
They both have question marks about them but I still think they'll both go top 10.

P-L
03-18-2008, 01:45 PM
I find it far more likely that Matt Ryan goes #1 to Miami than him dropping out of the top ten. Pro scouts just seem to like him a lot more than us internet draftniks.

Gay Ork Wang
03-18-2008, 01:45 PM
I cant see him drop by Cincy and NO

IndyColtScout
03-18-2008, 01:46 PM
No. If Dorsey is there at #10, there is NO WAY New Orleans passes on him.

So you are saying NO picks Dorsey over Ellis, cause I think there is no way that happens.

Gay Ork Wang
03-18-2008, 01:51 PM
well then show us r mock to see what u mean. I cant see the Bengals pass on Ellis

gsorace
03-18-2008, 01:51 PM
So you are saying NO picks Dorsey over Ellis, cause I think there is no way that happens.

I doubt Dorsey and Ellis are both available at #10

Jakey
03-18-2008, 01:52 PM
Im not a big fan of Dorsey...but there is no way he slipps out of the top 10, let alone 20.

Gay Ork Wang
03-18-2008, 01:53 PM
btw i believe the Lions would be all over them

terribletowel39
03-18-2008, 01:55 PM
I think IndyColtScout is going for a Mayock effect and just finding something he knows everyone will react to.

There isn't noway Dorsey gets picked over Ellis. You can't say that. And Top 20 is just silly talk when dealing with Dorsey. If he doesn't get cheap shotted he is hands down the best prospect in this draft. He has healed up from that. He didn't miss a game and played still to the point where he was talked about as the best DT in the country. That was hurt. So yea. I can see him dropping to 10 but there is no way he falls past 10.

Matt Ryan out of the top 10 is silly too. Like PL said, pro scouts do seem to like him alot more than most of us out here in internet world.

IndyColtScout
03-18-2008, 01:56 PM
OK guys let me know if you think this top 10 can happen...

MIA- C. Long
-The guy they want

STL- Golston
-The guy they want

ATL- J.Long
-Need OL

OAK-DMC
-Pick could be traded, but if not offensive weapon

KC-OTAH!
-Need OL

NYJ- DRC
-Paired with Revis for great CB tandem of the future and present.

NE- Rivers (or trade down where Ryan gets picked)
-Need LB help, could trade down

BAL-McElvin
-Need CB help bad

CIN-Mendenhall
-Rudi is going downhill, Perry bust, Watson is ok, Irons is hurt, and this team needs a consistant RB to keep defenses off the WR's and Palmer.

NO- Ellis
-They have a group of solid DT's, but a young star could be used to clog the middle.

Hypothetically if this was the top 10 picks, where would Dorsey or Ryan land?

Splat
03-18-2008, 01:57 PM
If the Chiefs stay at five and J.Long is gone I could very well see them taking Dorsey I really don't think we reach on an OT when we can get one early in round two.

IndyColtScout
03-18-2008, 02:00 PM
I think IndyColtScout is going for a Mayock effect and just finding something he knows everyone will react to.

There isn't noway Dorsey gets picked over Ellis. You can't say that. And Top 20 is just silly talk when dealing with Dorsey. If he doesn't get cheap shotted he is hands down the best prospect in this draft. He has healed up from that. He didn't miss a game and played still to the point where he was talked about as the best DT in the country. That was hurt. So yea. I can see him dropping to 10 but there is no way he falls past 10.

Matt Ryan out of the top 10 is silly too. Like PL said, pro scouts do seem to like him alot more than most of us out here in internet world.

Technically Dorsey has no healed from the cheap shot or he would not have been diagnosed with a stress fracture in Indianapolis, plus scouts are worried there are long term issues with his knees that would prevent Dorsey from playing 5+ years in the NFL (if that). I'm sorry but I don't see team investing millions in a guy that might never be healthy. That's why we see top talents every year fall in the draft because of injuries. J-Stew will be another example.

Flyboy
03-18-2008, 02:24 PM
No way New Orleans passes on Ellis or Dorsey if either is available. Period.

art vandelay
03-18-2008, 02:27 PM
I can see Dorsey falling out but not Ryan.

IndyColtScout
03-18-2008, 02:28 PM
No way New Orleans passes on Ellis or Dorsey if either is available. Period.

No body is saying they would. I have Ellis going #10 to NO.

The real question is would any teams pick Dorsey ahead of Ellis?

If both are available at #10, who does NO pick? I say Ellis.

toonsterwu
03-18-2008, 02:47 PM
I really don't see either happening. The medical issues will have to be extremely severe to cause Dorsey to drop, and if they are extremely severe, then you'd have

a) clear one-sided reports on the severity now (there's been some reports that indicate most teams are happy with the medicals)
b) a huge tumble for Dorsey ... and we're talking huge ... and no one is really anticipating that

Granted, he'll be brought back for general testing soon (forgot when), so we should see clearer reports coming around. But I'm more inclined to believe that these reports on serious concerns are by teams trying to drive him down. If healthy, Glenn Dorsey is arguably the only elite talent in this draft.

I will say this - I think, provided that things aren't extremely serious, the Saints would take him before Ellis (Dorsey being the better pass rusher), and at latest, in a no trade scenario, Carolina would have to strongly, strongly consider it.

As for Ryan, I agree with P-L earlier. There's been some indications that Miami is perhaps targeting Matt Ryan. I think the chances of Ryan falling out of the top 10 are quite slim. There's justifiable mixed reviews on Ryan ... but there's also plenty of intrigue on him. If he's there for Baltimore, I see no way Baltimore passes, unless they get a gigantic, we have to trade otherwise we're crazy, type offer. They can find a solid CB at the start of the 2nd.

etk
03-18-2008, 02:47 PM
Dorsey won't fall past 10, but I could see Ryan slipping into the early teens if Atlanta and Baltimore look elsewhere for QBs.

Flyboy
03-18-2008, 03:26 PM
No body is saying they would. I have Ellis going #10 to NO.

The real question is would any teams pick Dorsey ahead of Ellis?

If both are available at #10, who does NO pick? I say Ellis.

I know we like Ellis, but if both were available I'd be willing to bet money we'd take Dorsey over him.

FA1
03-18-2008, 04:52 PM
I could easily see Ryan falling out of the top 10. Dorsey, not so much. If he's on the board at 10, I can't see the Saints passing on him.

Not necessarily going for shock factor here, but I could actually see Matt Ryan falling all the way out of the top 20. How big is the actual gap amongst NFL teams between Matt Ryan, Brian Brohm, and Joe Flacco? The answer is not much. In fact, each of those three is considered the top QB on at least one team's board.

Each of those top 10 teams that need a QB (Mia, Atl, and Bal) can make a strong case to go in another direction in the 1st. Each team is asking themselves, "why take Matt Ryan in the top 10 when we could have a guy with more upside in the 2nd and invest significantly less money on him?"

I, personally, see there being a scramble for those three QBs between picks 25-40. Go ahead, call me crazy.. until it happens.

Thunder&Lightning
03-18-2008, 04:57 PM
No possible way Ryan slips out of the top ten. A team will either trade up for him and if he slips past the Dolphins, Falcons, and Chiefs then the Ravens will get him at pick #8... In my opinion.

DeathbyStat
03-18-2008, 05:03 PM
It could happen especially if Dorsey doesn't clear medically

Bengals1690
03-18-2008, 06:16 PM
OK guys let me know if you think this top 10 can happen...

MIA- C. Long
-The guy they want

STL- Golston
-The guy they want

ATL- J.Long
-Need OL

OAK-DMC
-Pick could be traded, but if not offensive weapon

KC-OTAH!
-Need OL

NYJ- DRC
-Paired with Revis for great CB tandem of the future and present.

NE- Rivers (or trade down where Ryan gets picked)
-Need LB help, could trade down

BAL-McElvin
-Need CB help bad

CIN-Mendenhall
-Rudi is going downhill, Perry bust, Watson is ok, Irons is hurt, and this team needs a consistant RB to keep defenses off the WR's and Palmer.

NO- Ellis
-They have a group of solid DT's, but a young star could be used to clog the middle.

Hypothetically if this was the top 10 picks, where would Dorsey or Ryan land?

Why would they bengals pass on a prospect like dorsey or ellis to take....runningback? the postion was ravaged by injuries this past year. DT and DE are our biggest needs, and if dorsey or ellis is there, 100% we will take him.

Geo
03-18-2008, 06:19 PM
Schefter just said that the rumor about Dorsey having knee surgery is BS, surprise surprise.

T-RICH49
03-18-2008, 06:20 PM
KC will NOT use the 5th overall pick on Jeff Otah we just won't

Yatta!
03-18-2008, 06:22 PM
There's no way Dorsey goes out of the top 10: St. Louis, Atlanta, Oakland, Kansas, Cincinnati & New Orleans all need a DT and despite his injury concerns he is without doubt a top 5 talent.

On the other hand, Ryan could be the next QB to suffer a draft day fall. But I don't see him getting past Chicago but even if he does teams will be clamouring to trade back into the top 20.

IndyColtScout
03-18-2008, 06:27 PM
KC will NOT use the 5th overall pick on Jeff Otah we just won't

It's all good, its not my real mock. However, I don't think KC will just wait til the 2nd round to go OL cause the draft is deep. KC is a prime time team to go OL 1st round.

Also, I completely disagree with the Bengals fan. The Bengals passing offense suffered because the running game wasn't as much a threat. When Rudi went out, teams aren't worried about Kenny Watson or DeDe Dorsey. Are you kidding? Rudi and the 30 year old RB stigma are flirting. If the Bengals don't upgrade at RB, I don't see the offense improving. Mendenhall would be an absolute playmaker. You are pretty much asking me, "why should we take an all rookie RB, when we can draft an overpaid DT?"

CIN found a guy like Demato Peko recently. CIN has also signed Antwan Odom, and has Geathers. Thornton can be a rotation guy. I don't think DT/DL is as big a need as LB's are, but then it comes down to Rivers or Mendenhall. That shouldn't even be a question, Mendenhall is perfect for the Bengals.

GermanSaint
03-18-2008, 06:34 PM
No. If Dorsey is there at #10, there is NO WAY New Orleans passes on him.

we will see

neko4
03-18-2008, 06:34 PM
As for Dorsey, I think way too much overanalysis is going on. He's an elite player, he would have definitely been a Top 10 pick last year. The guy took a cheap shot from an Auburn lineman this year, which obviously affected him until he could heal up some for the bowl game, but he didn't miss a game I believe. I just can't see him getting out of the Top 10 myself.
Thank you, there is way too much overanalysis on Dorsey its not fair
Also i cant see New Orleans, bad as their Defense is, and he is a local fave

toonsterwu
03-18-2008, 06:39 PM
I do think the Bengals will look RB, but the one thing that has to be said is that RB's can be found. They have a pressing need at DT. They need to find an interior pass rush badly. They had to try and improvise to find ways to generate an interior rush last year, as they don't have the individual talent to do it. And the chances of finding an interior pass rusher that can step in immediately in the middle of the 2nd is quite thin. Comparatively, the chances of finding a good weakside linebacker is quite high in the 2nd/3rd, as is finding a capable back.

A long way to go, though.

GermanSaint
03-18-2008, 06:43 PM
Thank you, there is way too much overanalysis on Dorsey its not fair
Also i cant see New Orleans, bad as their Defense is, and he is a local fave

yeah it seems to be obvious we only pick LSU players.... seldom ... maybe the colts or falcons do it ;)

Bengals1690
03-18-2008, 06:47 PM
Also, I completely disagree with the Bengals fan. The Bengals passing offense suffered because the running game wasn't as much a threat. When Rudi went out, teams aren't worried about Kenny Watson or DeDe Dorsey. Are you kidding? Rudi and the 30 year old RB stigma are flirting. If the Bengals don't upgrade at RB, I don't see the offense improving. Mendenhall would be an absolute playmaker. You are pretty much asking me, "why should we take an all rookie RB, when we can draft an overpaid DT?"

CIN found a guy like Demato Peko recently. CIN has also signed Antwan Odom, and has Geathers. Thornton can be a rotation guy. I don't think DT/DL is as big a need as LB's are, but then it comes down to Rivers or Mendenhall. That shouldn't even be a question, Mendenhall is perfect for the Bengals.



"The Bengals passing offense suffered because the running game wasn't as much a threat"

Last year, Palmer threw for a career high in passing yards. But nice try.


"When Rudi went out, teams aren't worried about Kenny Watson or DeDe Dorsey. Are you kidding? Rudi and the 30 year old RB stigma are flirting. If the Bengals don't upgrade at RB, I don't see the offense improving"

Kenny Watson proved he is good in a spot starter role while averaging over 4 YPC. Rudi Johnson will be healthy, as will Kenny Irons, the RB we drafted in the second round Last year. RB is probably our 4th or 5th worst position on the team, and we won't address it until later in the draft, especially if a potential all pro at DT is there like Dorsey or Ellis.


"Mendenhall would be an absolute playmaker. You are pretty much asking me, "why should we take an all rookie RB, when we can draft an overpaid DT?"

Your pretty much saying, "Why make a smart pick, when you can make a dumb pick!" It's OBVIOUS that the Bengals need defense. Forsey and Ellis are even better prospects than Mendenhall, and they are at a bigger position of need.

"CIN found a guy like Demato Peko recently. CIN has also signed Antwan Odom, and has Geathers. Thornton can be a rotation guy. I don't think DT/DL is as big a need as LB's are, but then it comes down to Rivers or Mendenhall. That shouldn't even be a question, Mendenhall is perfect for the Bengals"

Domata Peko has NO help, and can't play to his full potential till he has a competent player beside him. Geathers is better as a pass rushing specialist. Thornton is pretty much trash. Our LBs will be fine. We are getting Brooks back from injury, and we are more than likely getting Thurman back from suspension, and David Pollack has been cleared to play (though he will likely play DE). Brooks, Thurman, and Schlegal/Jeanty is not bad at all for LB spot.

Mendanhall would be the perfect fit for the bengals if he was 6'2, 300 lbs, played DT, and was named Dorsey or Ellis.

IndyColtScout
03-18-2008, 06:58 PM
"The Bengals passing offense suffered because the running game wasn't as much a threat"

Last year, Palmer threw for a career high in passing yards. But nice try.


"When Rudi went out, teams aren't worried about Kenny Watson or DeDe Dorsey. Are you kidding? Rudi and the 30 year old RB stigma are flirting. If the Bengals don't upgrade at RB, I don't see the offense improving"

Kenny Watson proved he is good in a spot starter role while averaging over 4 YPC. Rudi Johnson will be healthy, as will Kenny Irons, the RB we drafted in the second round Last year. RB is probably our 4th or 5th worst position on the team, and we won't address it until later in the draft, especially if a potential all pro at DT is there like Dorsey or Ellis.


"Mendenhall would be an absolute playmaker. You are pretty much asking me, "why should we take an all rookie RB, when we can draft an overpaid DT?"

Your pretty much saying, "Why make a smart pick, when you can make a dumb pick!" It's OBVIOUS that the Bengals need defense. Forsey and Ellis are even better prospects than Mendenhall, and they are at a bigger position of need.

"CIN found a guy like Demato Peko recently. CIN has also signed Antwan Odom, and has Geathers. Thornton can be a rotation guy. I don't think DT/DL is as big a need as LB's are, but then it comes down to Rivers or Mendenhall. That shouldn't even be a question, Mendenhall is perfect for the Bengals"

Domata Peko has NO help, and can't play to his full potential till he has a competent player beside him. Geathers is better as a pass rushing specialist. Thornton is pretty much trash. Our LBs will be fine. We are getting Brooks back from injury, and we are more than likely getting Thurman back from suspension, and David Pollack has been cleared to play (though he will likely play DE). Brooks, Thurman, and Schlegal/Jeanty is not bad at all for LB spot.

Mendanhall would be the perfect fit for the bengals if he was 6'2, 300 lbs, played DT, and was named Dorsey or Ellis.

Listen, you are overestimating the pass rush ability of the interior prospects. First of all, there are no Warren Sapp's in this draft. There hardly ever is. Robertson wasn't, and they said he was. Harris is OK but he isn't Warren Sapp in his prime. If there is a Warren Sapp, they won't be there for CIN most likely. Second, the Colts found an UDFA in Ed Johnson around the same size you are talking about. Just as RB's can be found, so can every other position in football.

Mendenhall is perfect, and I mean perfect for CIN, and you are arguing that he is not right. I understand you want interior talent, but if Dorsey is OK health wise, he won't be there. CIN is in a prime position to get jumped. If Dorsey or Ellis falls and someone wants them bad like NO, they could probably move above CIN.

Intuition tells me the cards will not fall for CIN to go DT in the 1st, unless by miracle, they do not get jumped by another team who is trading up for Dorsey/Ellis.

Bengals1690
03-18-2008, 07:06 PM
Listen, you are overestimating the pass rush ability of the interior prospects. First of all, there are no Warren Sapp's in this draft. There hardly ever is. Robertson wasn't, and they said he was. Harris is OK but he isn't Warren Sapp in his prime. If there is a Warren Sapp, they won't be there for CIN most likely. Second, the Colts found an UDFA in Ed Johnson around the same size you are talking about. Just as RB's can be found, so can every other position in football.

Mendenhall is perfect, and I mean perfect for CIN, and you are arguing that he is not right. I understand you want interior talent, but if Dorsey is OK health wise, he won't be there. CIN is in a prime position to get jumped. If Dorsey or Ellis falls and someone wants them bad like NO, they could probably move above CIN.

Intuition tells me the cards will not fall for CIN to go DT in the 1st, unless by miracle, they do not get jumped by another team who is trading up for Dorsey/Ellis.


the only reason we are having this argument is because you said the bengals would take Mendenhall over Eillis or Dorsey. Now you are saying that neither will be there. Make up your mind, please?

If neither of the DT's are there, we would probalby see a guy like rivers, merling, harvey, or even Oline taken.

And I'm not arguing that Mendenhall is not a good fit, I'm arguing that our defense is subpar, and it needs to be fixed before we think of RB.

And you talking about UDFAs is really, really stupid, seeing as runningback is the easiest replaced position in all of football. There is a grater chance of finding a RB there then a DT.

neko4
03-18-2008, 07:12 PM
yeah it seems to be obvious we only pick LSU players.... seldom ... maybe the colts or falcons do it ;)
im not saying theyll pick him because he is from LSU, its just another reason, that and he is the best DT prospect in years

The Legend
03-18-2008, 07:42 PM
i could see Ryan & Dorsey going to the Ravens

CC.SD
03-19-2008, 10:48 AM
No body is saying they would. I have Ellis going #10 to NO.

The real question is would any teams pick Dorsey ahead of Ellis?

If both are available at #10, who does NO pick? I say Ellis.

anyone who thinks the leader of the national championship LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY defense gets passed up by the NEW ORLEANS SAINTS in favor of a guy from USC who plays the same position is nuts.

iloxygenil
03-19-2008, 10:50 AM
IMO, Dorsey is out of the top 10 and struggling to be top 20. I really don't see teams willing to pay that much money on the chance that Dorsey could one day be healthy.

Matt Ryan is the interesting one here IMO. If no one falls in love with him in the top 10, is there a chance he has a Quinn/Rodgers like slide? IMO if the Dolphins, Falcons, Chiefs, and Ravens all pass... I don't know where he lands. I don't see CAR or CHI drafting Ryan.

Could both these guys fall out of the top 10? top 20?

I'd be VERY shocked if Dorsey falls out of the top 10...it's very likely that Dorsey is gone to Atlanta at #3 if Jake Long is off the board.

terribletowel39
03-19-2008, 11:12 AM
i could see Ryan & Dorsey going to the Ravens
that would be insane if they got both of them!!!! ;)