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View Full Version : Interior Vs. Exterior Pass Rush


A Perfect Score
03-23-2008, 03:25 PM
Its been pretty dead around here, and this is always a good topic for debate. Would you rahter have a dominant interior pass rusher, or a dominant edge rusher to build your defence around? Warren Sapp or Michael Strahan?(in their primes)

Me, personally, i think that an interior pass rush is far more rare then an exterior pass rush. I also think that its more effective, and prevents the Qb from stepping up into his throws. I guess its a matter of opinion, but it gives the oppourtunity to talk about the X's and O's a little more. Wat are everyone's thoughts?

Cashmoney
03-23-2008, 03:27 PM
I'd say since a majority of the QB's in the league are pocket passers I'd rather have an interior rush to either force them to move outside the pocket and throw on the run or make them not be able to step into their passes.

Addict
03-23-2008, 03:30 PM
Interior, two DT's wreaking havoc on a line in sight of the QB has a way bigger mental effect, plus it makes it harder to run against as well.

Diehard
03-23-2008, 03:37 PM
Interior by far. No "stepping up" to avoid the heat. As Addict indicated, if the DT's are pushing through the interior OL then the running game is also going to have significant problems.

The difficulty is finding/developing the DT talent needed to get a consistent interior rush.

Thunder&Lightning
03-23-2008, 03:38 PM
Ya interior are much more rare to come by these days. Interior screws up everything with a quarterback from the step up to there steps. A lot of plays have pulling guards and if you have a good quick DT they can penetrate that gap before it even shuts... that is deadly. Interior by far.

neko4
03-23-2008, 03:41 PM
Bullrushing DE's!
harder to find though

LonghornsLegend
03-23-2008, 03:42 PM
Ill take two dominant DT's over two dominant edge rushers...Probably because its alot harder to find an elite guy in the middle to create a push, and you can plug in guys to get after teh qb...Just grab some athletic or quick guys and they can get around the edge, but Ill take a Warren Sapp in the middle all day to disrupt the running and passing game.

SenorGato
03-23-2008, 03:42 PM
The Jags and Vikings, two of my favorite 4-3 D's in the league, live and die on their interior linemen.

If you want to physically dominate a team, you start with the interior. Having a great interior pass rush will upgrade your outside pass rush anyway.

Dam8610
03-23-2008, 05:30 PM
Interior pass rushers are much harder to come by. I'd rather have one of those and take my chances on finding an exterior pass rusher, which seems to be much easier to find.

BeerBaron
03-23-2008, 05:40 PM
i voted exterior but i believe it depends on the type of interior pass rush you get.

if you have a stroud/henderson combo inside that can get to the QB AND stop the run, then of course your always going to take that.

but, the majority of the time, good interior pass rushers have a bit of a weakness against the run as they tend to be on the smaller side ala tommie harris. even sapp and booger were both at or maybe just above 300 pounds tops in their primes.

so if you have to sacrifice your run stopping ability in order to get that interior pass rush, then id rather be able to attack from the outside. if you have some big stout DTs inside forcing the run outside, its easier for speedier DEs (who are normally the goo dpass rushers) to be able to make plays on them. also, its easier on your linebackers since the mlb can drop into pass coverage and your safeties can stay out of the box when you have run stuffing DTs. those DTs can plug up the middle forcing runs to the outside wehre the ends and OLBs can clean up.

so thats why i went with exterior, but thats just assuming that the interior pass rush hurts your run stopping

awfullyquiet
03-23-2008, 05:45 PM
interior rush. fundamentally guards aren't as good as blocking the pass as the run. this is why tommie harris, justin tuck are both so dangerous. stroud, henderson, and both pat and kevin williams are way more adept at stopping the run than attacking the passer. sure they create mismatches, but their primary goals are to stop the run. you can see it in the stats over the past few years.

how do you beat the vikings? pass against them.

ks_perfection
03-23-2008, 05:56 PM
Interior Rush no question. QBs like to step into their throws and with an interior rush they can't do that very well. With an edge rush the QB can just step up in the pocket, with interior penetration theirs no where he can go.

Than you consider that interior disruptive linemen take double teams or gets penetration and helps alot against the run. An end running off the edge definitly doesn't help and can hurt it.

BamaFalcon59
03-23-2008, 06:07 PM
Depends. If I have Warren Sapp or Simeon Rice I take Warren Sapp. If I have Booger McFarland or Simeon Rice I take Simeon Rice. The interior pass rusher must be elite, like eight plus sacks a year, to be considered over an elite defensive end.

BufFan71
03-23-2008, 06:10 PM
when u have a good interior rush, it makes yur DE's look A LOT better

ex:
Pat Williams
Sam Adams = QB's never stepping up

that made Aaron Schobel look like a good player

after this past season, we all realized, he isnt that good

BamaFalcon59
03-23-2008, 06:16 PM
when u have a good interior rush, it makes yur DE's look A LOT better

ex:
Pat Williams
Sam Adams = QB's never stepping up

that made Aaron Schobel look like a good player

after this past season, we all realized, he isnt that good

In 2007 neither of them were there and he had 14.5 sacks. In 2006 Sam Adams was there but not Pat Williams and Adams played limited snaps, and Schobel collected 12 sacks.

BeerBaron
03-23-2008, 06:27 PM
In 2007 neither of them were there and he had 14.5 sacks. In 2006 Sam Adams was there but not Pat Williams and Adams played limited snaps, and Schobel collected 12 sacks.

yeah really, i was going to say something like that but i couldnt remember his exact number of sacks. schobel is very good imo

TitanHope
03-23-2008, 06:29 PM
I prefer a dominant DT over a dominant DE, and not just because of the pass-rushing effects on a QB.

Not only does a DT collapse the pocket, but he'll also cause the RB to bounce the run out off the tackle instead of going up the gut during a run play. A great DE may over run the play, or at least be taken out of the play easier when the RB is going towards him. If the RB is going towards the DT, it's up to the Guard and Center to push him out. If they can't, he disrupts the play and in most cases causes a poor or negative play.

BeerBaron
03-23-2008, 06:38 PM
a lot of you keep saying that youd rather have the good inside rush because it helps to stop the run but i would like to point out that so few run stuffing DTs can also get after the passer effectively.

a good one cut runner can find the holes that the rushing d-lineman are leaving behind them and explode through in an instant. all the better when you have a zbs spreading everyone out....

ill stick to my guns in that in most cases, good interior pass rush can leave your defense vulnerable to the run

regoob2
03-23-2008, 06:45 PM
Ill take Tommie Harris over a Dwight Freeney.

BeerBaron
03-23-2008, 06:47 PM
Ill take Tommie Harris over a Dwight Freeney.

ill agree with ya there but try telling me that having 2 tommie harris's inside wont hurt your run d. even ill admit to that.....

you get up against a tough oline, have to pull your safeties into the box to stop the run, and suddenly even your pass d is weakeend

Addict
03-23-2008, 06:51 PM
ill agree with ya there but try telling me that having 2 tommie harris's inside wont hurt your run d. even ill admit to that.....

you get up against a tough oline, have to pull your safeties into the box to stop the run, and suddenly even your pass d is weakeend

Forget tommy harris, think more Warren Sapp.

Dunta_23
03-23-2008, 06:55 PM
Do the Texans have a bright future with Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye then? with a little bit of both?

SaintsFanForLife
03-23-2008, 06:59 PM
Interior all the way. Teams need a guy that plug up the hole and make the QB step out of the pocket.

regoob2
03-23-2008, 07:00 PM
Do the Texans have a bright future with Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye then? with a little bit of both?
there defensive line does.

Dam8610
03-23-2008, 07:00 PM
Do the Texans have a bright future with Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye then? with a little bit of both?

If both develop into what they should be (and don't forget Travis Johnson in that mix as well), then they could have one of the best DLs in the NFL, as much as it pains me to say that as a Colts fan.

TimD
03-23-2008, 07:01 PM
Well it changes for 3-4 and 4-3 defenses, but it seems like people are talking about the 4-3 more in here. I'd take Warren Sapp over a Michael Strahan any day. Interior pass rushers not only get to the QB but they cause a lot of chaos for the o line. Exterior rushers may draw double teams but at most its from a G and T which means that the rest of the line is basically unaffected. Interior rushers affect the entire o line more than the outside guys. Plus interior rushers are always in the QBs face making them nervous and causing quicker, less accurate releases.

interior rushers it is!

doingthisinsteadofwork
03-23-2008, 07:09 PM
I'll take an interior rush myself.It seems easy to find a 3rd down pass rusher like Chris Clemons.

NY+Giants=NYG
03-23-2008, 07:17 PM
You need both features and implement it in a good system for it to actually matter. That's like saying what do you want more a QB with a stronger arm, or QB with great accuracy? Both kinds can win, just has to be in a system that fits them. Same with the rush... Remember there are 5 o-line vs 4 Dline, assuming 4-3, so you can always double team someone on the inside, and have a rollout or sprint pass protection called. So basically you need both kinds of pass rush ability, and have a good system for it.

scottyboy
03-23-2008, 07:33 PM
Although you need both, I'm gonna say interior.

Giants had an outstanding rush with Osi and Strahan, BUT, when Tuck came around with the rush in the middle it made our D dominant.

etk
03-23-2008, 08:08 PM
An exterior pass rush. In one sentence, the interior pass rushers just have to push the pocket, but the exterior rushers actually have to beat their man.

Shahin
03-23-2008, 08:12 PM
Interior all day, for reasons that folks have already stated.

Jakey
03-23-2008, 08:13 PM
Seems im a fan of the 3-4 im gonna say outside. 3-4 teams hardly ever get pressure from there front three, and they arent supposed to. Some of the most successfull D's in the league, bring almost exclusively outside pressure...Steelers, Pats, Ravens, Chargers etc...

To be honest i wouldnt know for a 4-3, but i would probably say outside...the giants DT's werent the main reason for all of there sacks last year, it was there talented DE's.

senormysterioso
03-23-2008, 08:30 PM
It kind of depends on what kind of quarterback you're facing. If you're playing a quarterback that is more comfortable outside the pocket, it would better serve you to have good pass rushers keeping outside contain. If you have a quarterback that's more comfortable stepping up in the pocket, then a good interior rush would be better. But still even if you do have a great interior rush, if you don't have a guy coming off the edge forcing the qb to step up, it's kind of a moot point.

bigbluedefense
03-23-2008, 09:02 PM
ideally you want the interior guy. but its very very difficult finding that caliber player on the inside.

we are able to somewhat sidestep this problem by putting out 4 DEs on the dline in our nickel, and using various stunt combinations to generate both an interior and exterior push. and Tuck is beastly enough to play UT even in our base 4-3.

i expect to see this become a new trend, where teams will invest in 3 quality pass rushers up front in some shape or form after seeing what the Giants were able to do. its a copy cat league, so it wouldn't shock me to see that become a new trend. i think its a good idea anyway, every defense needs 3 quality pass rushers.

EDIT: For clarification, 3-4 teams do want interior push. In a 3-4, your interior push either comes from the NT or a 3-4 DE. Thats why guys like Castillo are gold, because they provide the "interior push" that every 3-4 defense desires.

Guys like Leonard Marshall, Richard Seymour in his prime, they are priceless for any 3-4. They provide an interior push or even an exterior one opposite the rushbacker when sending 4. And you can move them around, and move them to the same side as the rushbacker, and have the rushbacker provide the outside edge rush, with the DE providing the interior push on the same side.

BamaFalcon59
03-23-2008, 09:35 PM
ideally you want the interior guy. but its very very difficult finding that caliber player on the inside.

we are able to somewhat sidestep this problem by putting out 4 DEs on the dline in our nickel, and using various stunt combinations to generate both an interior and exterior push. and Tuck is beastly enough to play UT even in our base 4-3.

i expect to see this become a new trend, where teams will invest in 3 quality pass rushers up front in some shape or form after seeing what the Giants were able to do. its a copy cat league, so it wouldn't shock me to see that become a new trend. i think its a good idea anyway, every defense needs 3 quality pass rushers.

EDIT: For clarification, 3-4 teams do want interior push. In a 3-4, your interior push either comes from the NT or a 3-4 DE. Thats why guys like Castillo are gold, because they provide the "interior push" that every 3-4 defense desires.

Guys like Leonard Marshall, Richard Seymour in his prime, they are priceless for any 3-4. They provide an interior push or even an exterior one opposite the rushbacker when sending 4. And you can move them around, and move them to the same side as the rushbacker, and have the rushbacker provide the outside edge rush, with the DE providing the interior push on the same side.

Good post. You want a Warren Sapp, but I can count on one hand how many interior pass rushers have been as good as him. But I will take an elite pass rushing defensive end over a very good pass rushing defensive tackle anyday, I prefer the defensive tackle but the difference is not very substantial.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
03-23-2008, 09:37 PM
The thing is, an interior rush is far less consistent than an exterior rush. On the inside, a player can get double teamed much easier(and by better players. C+G>T+TE/RB). An outside rusher will generally turn the corner on his man. Also, seeing as the DTs are generally bigger than DEs, and are forced to outmuscle their way through two offensive linemen, they're more likely to tire by the end of the game. People will bring up Justin Tuck, but as dominant as he is, he's still that line's 3rd most dangerous pass rusher. Teams can't double him, or Osi and Strahan will wreak havoc. Realistically, you need both to a degree. If not, here is what happens.

Terrible DE, amazing DT: QB free to drop back as far as he wants, roll out when or wherever, and even step around the pressure.

Terrible DT, amazing DE: QB can step up to avoid the rush, which renders it completely obsolete unless he actually disengages his tackle to the inside(very difficult).

Good DE, Good pass rushing DT: If the QB steps up, he runs into the DT. If he doesn't step up, he runs the risk of the DE turning the corner and planting him.

brat316
03-23-2008, 09:42 PM
I like the bull rush DE like Patrick Allen or A. Smith from the Steelers, even though they are diffrent DEs. But DE with the ability to Bull rush.

SenorGato
03-23-2008, 10:00 PM
ill agree with ya there but try telling me that having 2 tommie harris's inside wont hurt your run d. even ill admit to that.....

you get up against a tough oline, have to pull your safeties into the box to stop the run, and suddenly even your pass d is weakeend

Yea, but having two John Henderson's, Kevin Williams', Casey Hampton's, Jamal's Williams', Vince Wilforks', Albert Haynesworths', or similar players would make your D sick all around. It's worked fine for the Jaguars and Vikings in the 4-3, and 3-4 teams pretty much live and die on their DL playing like elite 4-3 DT's.

BamaFalcon59
03-23-2008, 10:21 PM
Yea, but having two John Henderson's, Kevin Williams', Casey Hampton's, Jamal's Williams', Vince Wilforks', Albert Haynesworths', or similar players would make your D sick all around. It's worked fine for the Jaguars and Vikings in the 4-3, and 3-4 teams pretty much live and die on their DL playing like elite 4-3 DT's.

The Vikings probably have the best defensive tackle in the duo now that Marcus Stroud was traded from Jacksonville to Buffalo, and their defense gets passed on constantly and they still are searching for a pass rushing defensive end.

Jughead10
03-24-2008, 07:51 AM
I like the exterior pass rush better. You don't necceasrily need guys in the middle to collapse the pocket. You just need guy to stand ground and the point of attack. As long as your DTs aren't pushed back off the ball it will be difficult for a QB to step up to avoid a pass rush from the DE positions. A lot of DTs gets cheaps sacks becaus of pressure on the outside. Also when you get that pass rush up the middle, a lot of times you are doing it at the cost of a weakened run defense. The exterior rush is also more likely to cause a turnover.

PACKmanN
03-24-2008, 04:24 PM
Having an interior rush allows your defense to do so many things then a exterior rush. You allow your MIKE to make plays behind the line, and allow your DB to make plays.

bigbluedefense
03-24-2008, 05:58 PM
they both need to work together. you look at great pressure teams, they usually have a guy who can bring it on the outside along with interior pressure.

the thing is, its sooo hard finding a guy on teh inside that can consistently bring it. you can probably count them on your finger. Page, Sapp, Randle, is there anyone else?

The Giants dline didn't become dominant until we had Tuck bring inside pressure this year. And as was pointed out however, he doesn't do what he does if there wasn't 2 guys on the edge that both demand double teams. So they have to work together.

I think a better question is: Speed rushers or bullrushers?

I like bullrushers, I think that ultimately a bullrushing DE can provide you the medium that you ideally want. A guy like Strahan, or Kampman, they can provide exterior pressure but also interior pressure by the standard bullrush into the qb.

Speed rushers are often more easily neutralized.

Splat
03-24-2008, 06:40 PM
It all starts in the middle on D IMO.

BamaFalcon59
03-24-2008, 06:42 PM
they both need to work together. you look at great pressure teams, they usually have a guy who can bring it on the outside along with interior pressure.

the thing is, its sooo hard finding a guy on teh inside that can consistently bring it. you can probably count them on your finger. Page, Sapp, Randle, is there anyone else?

The Giants dline didn't become dominant until we had Tuck bring inside pressure this year. And as was pointed out however, he doesn't do what he does if there wasn't 2 guys on the edge that both demand double teams. So they have to work together.

I think a better question is: Speed rushers or bullrushers?

I like bullrushers, I think that ultimately a bullrushing DE can provide you the medium that you ideally want. A guy like Strahan, or Kampman, they can provide exterior pressure but also interior pressure by the standard bullrush into the qb.

Speed rushers are often more easily neutralized.

I think Bryant Young deserves to be on that list of great interior pass rushers. Maybe not where the other three were or are, but very good none the less.

bigbluedefense
03-24-2008, 06:45 PM
I think Bryant Young deserves to be on that list of great interior pass rushers. Maybe not where the other three were or are, but very good none the less.

Tommie Harris might deserve a shout out too if he keeps it up throughout his career.

JT Jag
03-24-2008, 10:25 PM
The ideal situation is to have a pair of interior guys who are quick enough to force O-lines to respect their pass-rushing ability and big enough for double-teams to be nessecary. Take the Jaguars defensive tackle duo before Stroud was traded.

To take advantage of this situation, you NEED a good edge rusher. Having the advantage of putting edge rushers against tackles one-on-one without any TE or RB help puts you over the top.

Unfortunately, we've not had that guy for 8 years.

eaglesalltheway
03-27-2008, 06:59 AM
This is one of the reasons I like what the Eagles are doing with the D-line. We have a rusher in Patterson, who is underrated against the run IMO, and a clogger in Bunkley. He will never have the stats of Patterson, but will have just as much of an impact on the D-line. We also have a pass rushing DE in Trent Cole, also underrated against the run IMO, and a new starter in Abiamiri wh is solid at the POA. The D-line is a very balanced one and is set to be great for the Eagles if you ask me.

Bengals1690
03-27-2008, 01:12 PM
You need DTs that collapse the line to make it easier for your DEs.

ChezPower4
03-29-2008, 02:21 PM
Interior, QBs can step with guys coming off the egde but guys up the middle there is no way if they go back they are gonna lose tons of yards, if they try to go left of right they get ran straight into the DEs.

nobodyinparticular
03-29-2008, 11:23 PM
I'll take a double dose of Reggie White please! (brings it inside and out)

ATLDirtyBirds
03-30-2008, 09:28 AM
If I can find a solid pair of DT, give me the exterior pass rush. If I have a dominate DE rushing the QB, he's going to be under constant pressure. (Easier to get worn down as a DT then a DE). As long as the 2 solid DT aren't being blown off the ball, and get a small push.. the DE is going to be more effective. If the QB steps up, and he's stepping into his OL, or he is going to run into a DT.

Perfect example. In a game this year, John Abraham was getting immense pressure from the edge. One of the times the QB stepped up and basically just collided with Grady Jackson. Grady isn't a pass rusher at all, but because he got a little push, he was able to get the sack because of Abraham.

BamaFalcon59
03-30-2008, 09:50 AM
If I can find a solid pair of DT, give me the exterior pass rush. If I have a dominate DE rushing the QB, he's going to be under constant pressure. (Easier to get worn down as a DT then a DE). As long as the 2 solid DT aren't being blown off the ball, and get a small push.. the DE is going to be more effective. If the QB steps up, and he's stepping into his OL, or he is going to run into a DT.

Perfect example. In a game this year, John Abraham was getting immense pressure from the edge. One of the times the QB stepped up and basically just collided with Grady Jackson. Grady isn't a pass rusher at all, but because he got a little push, he was able to get the sack because of Abraham.

And then we cut Gravy, which I believe lit a fire on Crumpler and DeAngelo's hate for Petrino. I know he was old, but big Grady Jackson was very good to us.

Oh well, he would have been released in the offseason anyway. Which is good for getting younger.

nobodyinparticular
03-30-2008, 07:50 PM
Terrible DE, amazing DT: QB free to drop back as far as he wants

I disagree. As we saw in 2006 and the 7 and 9-step drops, dropping so far back allows the DEs a much straighter shot at the QB. They don't have to worry about turning the corner around the OT, all the have to do is run in a straight line outside the tackle to get the QB.

Vikes99ej
03-31-2008, 12:38 AM
After these last fews years, I'll take any exterior pass rush I can get.

LonghornsLegend
03-31-2008, 01:40 AM
I just know its easier to plug in guys to rush the passer, then it is to plug in a guy to stuff the middle and penetrate...Take Dwight Freeney and Tommie Harris, both are elite guys, but you could find a guy with some speed to get after the qb the way freeney can, obviously not to the same effect but finding good pass rushers come late, early, some guys can just get after the qb...

But your not going to plug in a guy to give you what Tommie Harris can give you, and besides that, a DT has more effect on the entire outcome of a play...Takes the qb out of the pocket, flushes the rb out and forces him to run side to side, Ive seen DE's get ran out of the play on screens or draws, but that interior force isnt going anywhere and disrupts their entire defense.

Bruce Banner
09-30-2008, 11:28 PM
If you saw a lot of Warren Sapp (circa Bucs) you'd notice that he would flush the QB out of the pocket into the long arms of Rice. I'd venture to say most of Rice's sacks were from exactly that.

themaninblack
09-30-2008, 11:41 PM
Really, you just need Albert Haynesworth.

doingthisinsteadofwork
09-30-2008, 11:52 PM
Depends. If I have Warren Sapp or Simeon Rice I take Warren Sapp. If I have Booger McFarland or Simeon Rice I take Simeon Rice. The interior pass rusher must be elite, like eight plus sacks a year, to be considered over an elite defensive end.Their roles were completely different.Sapp wouldn't have been as succesful if it weren't for guys like McFarland.

Bruce Banner
10-01-2008, 12:11 AM
Their roles were completely different.Sapp wouldn't have been as succesful if it weren't for guys like McFarland.

I agree with the first part but yeah....guys like McFarland are a dime a dozen. Occupy a gap. Big whoop.

TitanHope
10-01-2008, 12:20 AM
Really, you just need Albert Haynesworth.

QFT.

AH has 5 sacks through 4 games already. It's not likely, but if he keeps this pace up, then he'd tally around 20 sacks this season.

Either way, we're looking at double-digit sacks from a 6'5, 320-lb nose tackle...

Saints-Tigers
10-01-2008, 12:25 AM
This thread makes me appreciate how special LaRoi Glover was when he racked up 17 sacks from his DT spot.

giantsfan
10-01-2008, 12:41 AM
Ideally you'd want the warren sapp, but in reality potential Warren sapps are incredibly rare and risky so IMO you're better off finding great DEs and getting either a 3rd pass rusher to rush up the middle or good enough tackles to push the pocket.

MetSox17
10-01-2008, 04:37 PM
Just to play devil's advocate a little here, i'll make a case for exterior pass-rush.

If i have Mario Williams and Jared Allen on the outside, i'll take that. You can plug a couple of fat guys that can move around a bit in the middle, and just blitz your MLB all game. I'll take one on one matchups on the outside, where there's a higher chance for your player to cause a turnover and a big loss. Besides, having the QB step up isn't that horrible a thing anyway. He shortens his vision down field since there's 5 guys over 6'4 going at it in front of him. His pass has a higher chance of being batted down and he probably can't put a lot of strength into his throw either.

BlindSite
10-01-2008, 06:14 PM
I'd rather have good push from one DT and one DE then two of either.

TheBuffaloBills
10-01-2008, 07:46 PM
Aaron "Exterior" Schobel...... He is getting older and slowing down a little bit. Since he is an exterior rusher, he doesnt have the speed to get around the tackles. So I vote interior when I factor everything in the long run.

OzTitan
10-01-2008, 08:11 PM
I honestly think a DE can be shutdown more easily. You can slide protections, leave a TE or RB in to chip/double etc. Plus, often good QB's can negate a strong outside rush by stepping into the pocket. They may get more sacks, but I'm not sure they change the way an offense plays you quite the same.

After seeing how Manning plays and how the Titans play Manning twice a year, I think an interior rush can be more disruptive. When a QB can't step into the pocket, it can really mess the timing up. Then again, some QB's like Romo or Ben seem to almost thrive off of finding space in the backfield by bouncing around the interior rush and then firing off a pass, so I guess it depends on the QB you're playing. In the end though, I think an elite interior is going to be harder to shutdown in general. The middle of the field is a hard place to take a dominating defender away from.

rockio42
10-01-2008, 09:22 PM
Interior no doubt cause it makes DEs better, unfortunetly it doesnt go the other way as easily

Ravens1991
10-01-2008, 09:23 PM
Overall if I could get 2 pro bowl DT or 2 pro bowl DE I would go DT. They can get a great interior pass rush, and no matter what direction the running play goes they will take up blockers as well.

Bruce Banner
10-01-2008, 09:24 PM
Interior no doubt cause it makes DEs better, unfortunetly it doesnt go the other way as easily

That probably sums it up. A pass rushing DT just makes everyone better.

Toneloc498
10-05-2008, 02:20 AM
QFT.

AH has 5 sacks through 4 games already. It's not likely, but if he keeps this pace up, then he'd tally around 20 sacks this season.

Either way, we're looking at double-digit sacks from a 6'5, 320-lb nose tackle...

Albert is a beast and would be fantastic on any team in the NFL, he is going to get a monster contract after this year, couldnt imagine him on the same line with Tommie Harris or Henderson. A DT who I consider very underrated is Fred Robbins, he already has 4 Sacks in 3 games nad if you saw the Giants/Bengals game he was all over the field (Had to be MVP of the game) making sacks, getting hands on field goals, batted passes and tackles for loss. Man is a good football player who last year was overshadowed by Strahan and Osi and didnt get much playing time but still got 5.5 sacks. Watch out for him this year he can flourish this year and get over 10 sacks with the increased playing time hes going to get with Osi out and Strahan gone.

nobodyinparticular
10-05-2008, 02:31 AM
I think this discussion comes to the point of QBs and what they are comfortable with. An elite DT is going to completely disrupt the interior of the pocket, making it so that the QB has a really hard time stepping up in the pocket to make a throw. A defensive end coming from the outside disrupts the edge of the pocket, but due to momentum, (if the interior of the offensive line is doing their job) a QB has a good chance at being able to step up into the pocket to make a throw and avoid the rush.

The basic fact of the matter is that QBs are so used to working inside the pocket that disrupting the interior of the pocket is more effective in breaking up the play than a DE coming from the outside. A QB scrambling left or right with a man coming up the middle is most often out of his element. A QB stepping into the pocket with a man coming from either side is much more in his element. This is not even mentioning the physics of the matter that you get better mustard on the ball by stepping into your throws.

giantsfan
10-05-2008, 02:44 AM
Albert is a beast and would be fantastic on any team in the NFL, he is going to get a monster contract after this year, couldnt imagine him on the same line with Tommie Harris or Henderson. A DT who I consider very underrated is Fred Robbins, he already has 4 Sacks in 3 games nad if you saw the Giants/Bengals game he was all over the field (Had to be MVP of the game) making sacks, getting hands on field goals, batted passes and tackles for loss. Man is a good football player who last year was overshadowed by Strahan and Osi and didnt get much playing time but still got 5.5 sacks. Watch out for him this year he can flourish this year and get over 10 sacks with the increased playing time hes going to get with Osi out and Strahan gone.

Robbins got plenty of PT last year, he was our starting DT, I don't know what to say about him though, every few years he seems to have a year where he's everywhere and racks up Probowl caliber stats, and the next year he's extremely average and gets pushed around and no push. Glad he's having a big year, but he's not a guy who could have any success if he had olines keying on him.

Iamcanadian
10-05-2008, 10:07 AM
If you talking about rushing the passer, a DE is a mile ahead of a DT. Name me 4 DT's who can claim 10+ sack a year on a consistant basis, heck name me 2 who can do it, they are few and far between. If you want to improve your pass rush, a team won't be looking to draft a DT. All defenses that want a great pass rush start on the outside. Sure, it is nice to have a guy who can collapse the pocket but you cannot do it consistantly enough to hold down a QB unless you have a great DE to apply the pressure.
A great DE doesn't need a great DT to ring up sacks but without a great DE what good is collapsing the pocket.
The OL has 3 blockers in the interior vs 2 pass rushing DT's so how effective is any interior pass rush ever going to be.
I cannot believe that anybody examining the stats could believe that a interior pass rush is superior to an exterior one.

Gay Ork Wang
10-05-2008, 10:33 AM
If you talking about rushing the passer, a DE is a mile ahead of a DT. Name me 4 DT's who can claim 10+ sack a year on a consistant basis, heck name me 2 who can do it, they are few and far between. If you want to improve your pass rush, a team won't be looking to draft a DT. All defenses that want a great pass rush start on the outside. Sure, it is nice to have a guy who can collapse the pocket but you cannot do it consistantly enough to hold down a QB unless you have a great DE to apply the pressure.
A great DE doesn't need a great DT to ring up sacks but without a great DE what good is collapsing the pocket.
The OL has 3 blockers in the interior vs 2 pass rushing DT's so how effective is any interior pass rush ever going to be.
I cannot believe that anybody examining the stats could believe that a interior pass rush is superior to an exterior one.
Stats lie...

MarioPalmer
10-05-2008, 11:12 AM
I look at it like this, to build my team around I would take Mario Williams then build around him. Getting a top flight elite DE that can be a cornerstone for your defense for at least a decade is one of the 3 hardest players to find. Only do the QB and LT spot is as hard to find as it is to find an elite franchise DE. So I would build around a DE then find a DT or interior pass rush.

But, that doesn't mean I would want a more dominant interior rush. I think I would have a hard time passing on Kevin Williams over Mario but because Mario is so much more harder to find I would have to do it. The interior pass rush forces the pocket to collapse and it forces the QB to make a decision to either throw a bad ball under pressure or to move outside the pocket and in to the arms of an outside pass rusher.

But, you can't find a Mario as easily as you can find a franchise DT. How many legit franchise DE's are in he league. Maybe 5, maybe 6. I would say Mario, Peppers, Freeney, Allen, Osi, Gaines and Kamp. But how many great DT's are out there? Haynesworth, Harris, Kevin Willy, Stroud, Jenkins, Seymour, Warren, Dorsey, Ellis, etc. I also think that the a top DE takes president over any other defensive player, just look at the drafts. HOw many LB's, DT's and DB's go first or second overall. How many DE's have? The NFL has made it a point of taking the top flight DE over any other defensive player in the draft and I think that there is all you need for this debate of who you would build your team around.

Gay Ork Wang
10-05-2008, 11:20 AM
i wouldnt call Jenkins an franchise DT and i wouldnt call thosse Rookies franchise DTs. Then u have to take out warren and Seymour since they are 3-4 players, if ud do that ud have to add those pass rushing guys like Merriman and DeMarcus Ware

Bruce Banner
10-05-2008, 01:48 PM
I think we are getting off base here.

We don't care how often the players come around, we want to know which type of pass-rush you would rather have.

Warren Sapp or Michael Strahan? Give me Sapp for reasons already stated.

Saints-Tigers
10-05-2008, 02:11 PM
If you talking about rushing the passer, a DE is a mile ahead of a DT. Name me 4 DT's who can claim 10+ sack a year on a consistant basis, heck name me 2 who can do it, they are few and far between. If you want to improve your pass rush, a team won't be looking to draft a DT. All defenses that want a great pass rush start on the outside. Sure, it is nice to have a guy who can collapse the pocket but you cannot do it consistantly enough to hold down a QB unless you have a great DE to apply the pressure.
A great DE doesn't need a great DT to ring up sacks but without a great DE what good is collapsing the pocket.
The OL has 3 blockers in the interior vs 2 pass rushing DT's so how effective is any interior pass rush ever going to be.
I cannot believe that anybody examining the stats could believe that a interior pass rush is superior to an exterior one.

Just because less DT's can generate 10 sacks doesn't make them less valuable, if anything, that would make them much more rare, much different to gameplan for, and as an effect, more valuable...

Iamcanadian
10-06-2008, 10:01 AM
One other point. If an interior pass rush is so effective even more so than an exterior one, why do pro teams covet a LT on offense and leave OG's and OC's to round 2 and beyond. People who argue that an interior pass rush is superior simply don't know what they are talking about. Pro teams have learned that an interior pass rush can be handled by far more average players but an exterior pass rush requires a player with HOF potential. Surely it would be the other way around if an interior pass rush was superior????

BamaFalcon59
10-06-2008, 10:14 AM
One other point. If an interior pass rush is so effective even more so than an exterior one, why do pro teams covet a LT on offense and leave OG's and OC's to round 2 and beyond. People who argue that an interior pass rush is superior simply don't know what they are talking about. Pro teams have learned that an interior pass rush can be handled by far more average players but an exterior pass rush requires a player with HOF potential. Surely it would be the other way around if an interior pass rush was superior????

Now while I agree that exterior is superior to interior, that is just a dumb statement. Like you said, pass rushing defensive tackles are harder to find. Pass rushing defensive ends are not. If there are ten or less really effective interior pass rushers and 40 really effective exterior pass rushers then of course teams are going to select players to block the exterior players (the defensive ends) because they will face them more often.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-06-2008, 10:20 AM
I would rather have a great exterior DEs, that can rush or contain, and then use various fronts and blitzes to overload A gap. So have our DEs do their thing, and force the QB to step up, and then blitz and overload A gap, and slant or stunt the DTs.

Iamcanadian
10-06-2008, 10:39 AM
Now while I agree that exterior is superior to interior, that is just a dumb statement. Like you said, pass rushing defensive tackles are harder to find. Pass rushing defensive ends are not. If there are ten or less really effective interior pass rushers and 40 really effective exterior pass rushers then of course teams are going to select players to block the exterior players (the defensive ends) because they will face them more often.

Considering there are only 32 teams in the league, I think finding 40 really effective exterior pass rushers isn't close to reality. There are probably less than 10 great exterior pass rushers in the league so your whole argument has no merit.
Pro teams seek great LT's because they obviously fear the exterior pass rush over the interior pass rush by quite a margin. Interior pass blockers can effectively work as a team and rarely have to handle a great interior pass rusher on their own. They out number the DT's 3 to 2 which usually fees the OC to double team the most dangerous interior pass rusher.

BamaFalcon59
10-06-2008, 11:06 AM
Considering there are only 32 teams in the league, I think finding 40 really effective exterior pass rushers isn't close to reality. There are probably less than 10 great exterior pass rushers in the league so your whole argument has no merit.
Pro teams seek great LT's because they obviously fear the exterior pass rush over the interior pass rush by quite a margin. Interior pass blockers can effectively work as a team and rarely have to handle a great interior pass rusher on their own. They out number the DT's 3 to 2 which usually fees the OC to double team the most dangerous interior pass rusher.

I said good, not great. There were 31 players with at least 7 sacks last season, 23 of them were defensive ends. 4 of them were defensive tackles. Out of players with at least 8 sacks, 18 were defensive ends while 2 were defensive tackles. The trend gos on until the range hits like 3 sacks. I exaggerated, but the point still stands. There are more effective defensive ends than effective defensive tackles, so left tackle has a bigger priority.

If the league was full of players like Darnell Docket, Tommie Harris, Shaun Rodgers and Corey Williams at defensive tackle then guards would be a bigger priority.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 11:25 AM
Ideally, youd like a versatile DE who can use both strength and speed techniques to get after the qb, a guy who can slide into DT on passing downs if need be.

Mario Williams and Justin Tuck come to mind. Thats best of both worlds.


If we're talking about purely speed rushers on the exterior vs interior rushers like Sapp, then yeah inside rush bc those guys are harder to find than pure speed rushers.

It also depends on the scheme.

Bruce Banner
10-06-2008, 11:30 AM
Ideally, youd like a versatile DE who can use both strength and speed techniques to get after the qb, a guy who can slide into DT on passing downs if need be.


I doubt that this would have ever crossed your mind if Tuck wasn't a Giant, plus he is like the only DE doing this with great success, how is that ideal? Have the majority of those with NFL authority declared this the new standard when I wasn't paying attention or something?


and Bama, you raaacckked that kid.

A Perfect Score
10-06-2008, 11:31 AM
One other point. If an interior pass rush is so effective even more so than an exterior one, why do pro teams covet a LT on offense and leave OG's and OC's to round 2 and beyond. People who argue that an interior pass rush is superior simply don't know what they are talking about. Pro teams have learned that an interior pass rush can be handled by far more average players but an exterior pass rush requires a player with HOF potential. Surely it would be the other way around if an interior pass rush was superior????


This argument is stupid. It is SO much easier to double team a DT then it is to double team a DE. When you want to double team a DE, it takes away from the other possibilites of the play (ie. you need a TE, or a RB, to be the other blocker on the DE, which means less possible recievers.) Where it is much easier to double team DT's on the inside. NFL scouts value elite LT's that can be left on an island and handle elite pass rushers so it gives them more flexibility with their offense. I guess you can argue thats part of a good DE's effect, but think about it logically.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 11:37 AM
I doubt that this would have ever crossed your mind if Tuck wasn't a Giant, plus he is like the only DE doing this with great success, how is that ideal anyways? Have the majority of those with NFL authority declared this the new standard when I wasn't paying attention or something?


and Bama, you raaacckked that kid.

thats not true. Cullen Jenkins does it too. Im a huge fan of his. Mario Williams experimented with it his rookie year. Reggie White did it sometimes with the Eagles.

Richard Seymour does it for Bellichick when they come out in a 4 man front. (i can clarify this if need be)

The Colts have done a 3 DE front for awhile as well, moving their old base LE inside and moving Mathis to LE on passing downs.

Haynesworth plays inside and outside for the Titans, as does KVB.

Tuck is the latest success story, but he surely isn't the first, and won't be the last.

Bruce Banner
10-06-2008, 11:39 AM
thats not true. Cullen Jenkins does it too. Im a huge fan of his. Mario Williams experimented with it his rookie year. Reggie White did it sometimes with the Eagles.

Richard Seymour does it for Bellichick when they come out in a 4 man front. (i can clarify this if need be)

The Colts have done a 3 DE front for awhile as well, moving their old base LE inside and moving Mathis to LE on passing downs.

Haynesworth plays inside and outside for the Titans, as does KVB.

Tuck is the latest success story, but he surely isn't the first, and won't be the last.

So at the moment, 3 players do it every game?

BamaFalcon59
10-06-2008, 11:42 AM
They do it with Jamaal Anderson on occasion, but that's just beause he is fat and slow.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 11:47 AM
So at the moment, 3 players do it every game?



Tuck, Cullen Jenkins, KVB, Haynesworth, Seymour, Greg Ellis are a few names off the top of my head that ive seen do it on numerous occasions.

More have the potential to do it. It will be a new trend in the NFL that was popularized by the emergence of Tuck, but has been done for a long time prior to him.

Finding true interior pass rushers are not easy, but every team desires to have an interior rush. The "new" thing is manipulating an interior rush by having a versatile inside/outside guy move around on passing downs, and using various stunts and twists combined with blitz packages to throw off pass protection packages.

The Giants have made it popular amongst the masses, but this has been done for awhile now. Its a copycat league, now after seeing its success with the Giants, more teams will do it. Thats how the NFL is, we've seen it time and time again. This is the new "it" thing.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 11:48 AM
They do it with Jamaal Anderson on occasion, but that's just beause he is fat and slow.

he needs to get down to a lean 265/70, and he can salvage his career. he's good against the run, but he needs a good mentor to get his potential out of him.

BamaFalcon59
10-06-2008, 12:00 PM
he needs to get down to a lean 265/70, and he can salvage his career. he's good against the run, but he needs a good mentor to get his potential out of him.

I've almost given up on him. 0 (as in the number below 1) sacks in 21 career games. He got pressure twice yesterday and, watching, it kind of felt like seeing an infant speek his first words.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 12:08 PM
I've almost given up on him. 0 (as in the number below 1) sacks in 21 career games. He got pressure twice yesterday and, watching, it kind of felt like seeing an infant speek his first words.

you couldve had Patrick Willis instead. ouch.

but you can't knock the selection at the time. i think he still has potential, but he needs a great coach to get it out of him. the raw talent is there.


we'll trade you a 4th for him :)

BamaFalcon59
10-06-2008, 12:13 PM
you couldve had Patrick Willis instead. ouch.

but you can't knock the selection at the time. i think he still has potential, but he needs a great coach to get it out of him. the raw talent is there.


we'll trade you a 4th for him :)

At the time we didn't seem to really be considering Willis. Not sure why in hindsite lol.

Seemed like it was Amobi Okoye or Jamaal Anderson. Before the draft, I was banking on us just missing out on the top talent in Adrian Peterson and LaRon Landry and we did. I wanted to trade up badly. I was mad when the Redskins passed on DL for Landry (unexpected) and AP was taken by a team who had Chester Taylor coming off of a 1,200 yard rushing season in his first season with the team (Best player available, could have taken Anderson).

I was mad at that point. We got lucky in round two getting Chris Houston and Justin Blalock though, two players I really liked.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 12:16 PM
At the time we didn't seem to really be considering Willis. Not sure why in hindsite lol.

Seemed like it was Amobi Okoye or Jamaal Anderson. Before the draft, I was banking on us just missing out on the top talent in Adrian Peterson and LaRon Landry and we did. I wanted to trade up badly. I was mad when the Redskins passed on DL for Landry (unexpected) and AP was taken by a team who had Chester Taylor coming off of a 1,200 yard rushing season in his first season with the team (Best player available, could have taken Anderson).

I was mad at that point. We got lucky in round two getting Chris Houston and Justin Blalock though, two players I really liked.

whats wrong with the guy though? is he just out of shape? is he suffering from Vernon Gholston syndrome and looks like he doesn't give a poop out there? lack of motor? lack of technique? what is it?

BamaFalcon59
10-06-2008, 12:19 PM
whats wrong with the guy though? is he just out of shape? is he suffering from Vernon Gholston syndrome and looks like he doesn't give a poop out there? lack of motor? lack of technique? what is it?

I don't really know. He lacks pass rush moves, he lacks persuit speed, he isn't quick off the ball. It looks like he tries to just use his size and natural ability, but the speed just isn't there right now. He has been a huge disappointment, even though I wasn't a huge fan of the pick I expected more than this.

illmatic74
10-06-2008, 01:40 PM
Exterior pass rush is more important but interior could have a major impact. Antone realize the amount of sacks Vanden Bosch has racked up playing with Haynesworth.

Iamcanadian
10-06-2008, 05:20 PM
This argument is stupid. It is SO much easier to double team a DT then it is to double team a DE. When you want to double team a DE, it takes away from the other possibilites of the play (ie. you need a TE, or a RB, to be the other blocker on the DE, which means less possible recievers.) Where it is much easier to double team DT's on the inside. NFL scouts value elite LT's that can be left on an island and handle elite pass rushers so it gives them more flexibility with their offense. I guess you can argue thats part of a good DE's effect, but think about it logically.

If you had bothered to read my other posts on the subject, you'd have seen that this is exactly what I said. Interior OLmen outnumber the DT's 3 to 2 so double teaming them is much easier.

Iamcanadian
10-06-2008, 05:36 PM
I said good, not great. There were 31 players with at least 7 sacks last season, 23 of them were defensive ends. 4 of them were defensive tackles. Out of players with at least 8 sacks, 18 were defensive ends while 2 were defensive tackles. The trend gos on until the range hits like 3 sacks. I exaggerated, but the point still stands. There are more effective defensive ends than effective defensive tackles, so left tackle has a bigger priority.

If the league was full of players like Darnell Docket, Tommie Harris, Shaun Rodgers and Corey Williams at defensive tackle then guards would be a bigger priority.

DT's like Harris and Sapp play in a Cover 2 defense where the DT shoots the gap and has little responsibility for defending the run. Every Cover 2 team uses at least one DT in this manner but they also depend on a great pass rush from the outside to allow Harris the freedom to act.
The reason more DT's aren't effective rushing the passer has a lot more to do with schemes than with talent and when you add in the fact that interior OLmen outnumber the DT's 3 to 2, few HC's are prepared to use their DT's as their main pass rush.
As long as GM's know that they outnumber the DT's 3to 2 on the interior, they are never going to view the interior of the DL as a logical way to build your pass rush and they will rarely commit a very high draft pick to drafting OG's and OC's. Sure if a truly outstanding OG or OC happens to appear in the draft, teams drafting later in round 1 will occassionally draft one but certainly never in the top 10-15 picks.
Your own #'s prove beyond a shadow of a doubt which of the 2 areas provide the more efficient pass rush and the interior pass rush comes off a poor 2nd at best.