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View Full Version : Mayock says Malcolm Kelly's knees are so bad he is being taken off draft boards


jnew76
03-24-2008, 05:59 PM
Was just watching Path to the Draft on NFL Network and it sounded like multiple teams are really concerned about the condition of BOTH of Kelly's knees and that he will not be on a number of teams draft boards come April.

I have had Kelly as my #1 wideout the entire offseason, but now I think the injury concerns have changed my mind.

BeerBaron
03-24-2008, 06:01 PM
boy, thats not good news for him. though "being taken off of draft boards" seems a little harsh.

now being moved down a round or two.....sure. if hes there in like the 3rd, i bet someone takes a shot

terribletowel39
03-24-2008, 06:05 PM
thats pretty interesting.

who knows if it is true but.....yea.

bills51tuff
03-24-2008, 06:07 PM
I know the Bills are interested in him.

Hopefully Mayock is off here.

etk
03-24-2008, 06:20 PM
Kelly with 2 bad knees will still get more separation than Limas Sweed. I'm not concerned.

TheBuffaloBills
03-24-2008, 06:32 PM
Interesting.... if this is true, I highly doubt we draft him at 11

DeathbyStat
03-24-2008, 06:56 PM
What a steal he could be in the third

BeerBaron
03-24-2008, 07:17 PM
What a steal he could be in the third

assuming his knees are overblown that is

Addict
03-24-2008, 08:00 PM
What a steal he could be in the third

if he can't play because of bum knees, it will be a wasted pick

619
03-24-2008, 08:02 PM
second day pick? wow.

regoob2
03-24-2008, 08:03 PM
How did this just come out of no where?

Hines
03-24-2008, 08:05 PM
I thought it was his quads?

Billingsley26
03-24-2008, 08:08 PM
How did this just come out of no where?

It didnt. Everyone, or well most of us, have known that he had bad knees for a long time now. That is the reason he wasnt at the combine or didnt work out at a pro day. Its really no secret. The only part is that it was really this bad.

But good for Buffalo. The only WR i want to see at #11 is Limas Sweed, and its looking more and more like if thats the choice, Limas is the guy.

metafour
03-24-2008, 08:14 PM
But good for Buffalo. The only WR i want to see at #11 is Limas Sweed, and its looking more and more like if thats the choice, Limas is the guy.

Bills fans in general are getting far too hyped up on Sweed. I'll say this right now, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Devin Thomas is ranked higher than Sweed by us. He fits what we are looking for very very well, and he simply has more upside than Sweed as well. He is getting slept on big time by Bills fans.

BeerBaron
03-24-2008, 08:16 PM
Bills fans in general are getting far too hyped up on Sweed. I'll say this right now, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Devin Thomas is ranked higher than Sweed by us. He fits what we are looking for very very well, and he simply has more upside than Sweed as well. He is getting slept on big time by Bills fans.

as much as i love devin thomas, i think #11 is still too high for him. i got chastised a few months back for saying he was a first rounder, that changed recently. but i dont think hell rise to 11.....hed be a reach there with only 1 year of real production

Billingsley26
03-24-2008, 08:20 PM
Bills fans in general are getting far too hyped up on Sweed. I'll say this right now, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Devin Thomas is ranked higher than Sweed by us. He fits what we are looking for very very well, and he simply has more upside than Sweed as well. He is getting slept on big time by Bills fans.

I would not be upset at all with that pick. I dont expect Limas to be a huge gamebreaker for the Bills. Thats why we have guys like Lee Evans and Roscoe Parrish. They will bust those small slants into 80 yarders. Limas would be perfect going over the middle, and gives us a huge red zone target we need. Thats why I like him so much.

A Perfect Score
03-24-2008, 08:33 PM
billingsley are you a fan of the patriots or the bills? or of both? tahts a little condescending if you are a fan of both, seeing as they are rivals...im just confused haha i thought you were a pats fan...

oh, and limas sweed will be a better and more productive reciever then devin thomas. :) Sweed is better value at #11, he will be the pick if they go WR.

etk
03-24-2008, 08:33 PM
as much as i love devin thomas, i think #11 is still too high for him. i got chastised a few months back for saying he was a first rounder, that changed recently. but i dont think hell rise to 11.....hed be a reach there with only 1 year of real production

Thomas had almost as many catches in 1 year as Sweed had in 2 years (05 & 06). I give him a pass because he was a Juco, just like I give Sweed a pass for being hurt his Senior year.

I don't think Thomas would be any more of a reach than Sweed would be, and he's a better fit.

regoob2
03-24-2008, 08:33 PM
It didnt. Everyone, or well most of us, have known that he had bad knees for a long time now. That is the reason he wasnt at the combine or didnt work out at a pro day. Its really no secret. The only part is that it was really this bad.

But good for Buffalo. The only WR i want to see at #11 is Limas Sweed, and its looking more and more like if thats the choice, Limas is the guy.
Ya this is news to me, thanks.

BeerBaron
03-24-2008, 08:35 PM
Thomas had almost as many catches in 1 year as Sweed had in 2 years (05 & 06). I give him a pass because he was a Juco, just like I give Sweed a pass for being hurt his Senior year.

I don't think Thomas would be any more of a reach than Sweed would be, and he's a better fit.

i think you and i are in the minority on preferring thomas to sweed, but i think sweed might be the safer pick regardless. idk...on the bills hed be matched up one on one with a corner due to having evans there and could use his size to take advantage because there arent many 6'5 corners...

Billingsley26
03-24-2008, 08:38 PM
billingsley are you a fan of the patriots or the bills? or of both? tahts a little condescending if you are a fan of both, seeing as they are rivals...im just confused haha i thought you were a pats fan...

oh, and limas sweed will be a better and more productive reciever then devin thomas. :) Sweed is better value at #11, he will be the pick if they go WR.

Lol, I am both a Pats and Bills fan. Ive heard it all, so you can say whatever you like. Its a long story, but in short...Im from just outside of Toronto, my dad has had Bills seasons tickets for over 20 years, so IVe been going to Bills games for years. So obviously Ive been supporting them. My family are die hard Boston fans, for every sport. I grew up watching the Bills, but around people who loved the Pats. Thus I loved the Pats, and still watched the Bills and went to games at the Ralph on a regular basis.

etk
03-24-2008, 08:41 PM
i think you and i are in the minority on preferring thomas to sweed, but i think sweed might be the safer pick regardless. idk...on the bills hed be matched up one on one with a corner due to having evans there and could use his size to take advantage because there arent many 6'5 corners...

I agree that Sweed would be a nice addition for the Bills, but I just don't see the logic in spending a top-15 pick on a receiver that rarely makes an uncontested catch. Sweed is as good as it gets for a possession receiver, but Thomas has the size/build and he's an explosive playmaker.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4AHAhZsrEL4&feature=related

watch this video....he makes many impressive catches but most of them are him using his body to make a catch or getting hit while he's making a catch. The guy struggles to separate from college DBs...

TimD
03-24-2008, 08:44 PM
Wow. I really doubt he falls past the early 2nd

WCH
03-24-2008, 08:45 PM
This reminds me of Ki-Jana Carter in 1995. Everybody knew that he had a degenerative knee condition which threatened to destroy his career. Some teams took him off of their draft boards all together. Then, along came the Bengals to take him with the #1 overall pick.

Hopefully Kelly has better luck than Carter.

Billingsley26
03-24-2008, 08:50 PM
I agree that Sweed would be a nice addition for the Bills, but I just don't see the logic in spending a top-15 pick on a receiver that rarely makes an uncontested catch. Sweed is as good as it gets for a possession receiver, but Thomas has the size/build and he's an explosive playmaker.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4AHAhZsrEL4&feature=related

watch this video....he makes many impressive catches but most of them are him using his body to make a catch or getting hit while he's making a catch. The guy struggles to separate from college DBs...

That is why Id rather have Sweed. It is no slight against Thomas though. I would gladly take him as well. But we have explosive gamebreaker in Lee and Parrish, and I feel that we need a big posession guy more than another gamebreaker. Thats why Id prefer Sweed.

BeerBaron
03-24-2008, 08:51 PM
This reminds me of Ki-Jana Carter in 1995. Everybody knew that he had a degenerative knee condition which threatened to destroy his career. Some teams took him off of their draft boards all together. Then, along came the Bengals to take him with the #1 overall pick.

Hopefully Kelly has better luck than Carter.

thats why they are the bungles....

did i say bungles? i meant bungles....

keylime_5
03-24-2008, 08:51 PM
I never really thought of Malcolm as anything higher than a top 20 pick in the first place, but if his knees are bad then I would probably knock him down my board b/c of the red flags, but to take him off would be stupid. That's like saying "I'd rather draft (insert bum WR here, Syndric Steptoe for example) in round 7 than Malcolm Kelly". Now even if his knees are a big red flag, the kid has more potential to be a star WR in the league than most of those round 6/7 projects even if the risk is fairly big. It's not like day 2 picks are that valuable.

cdub11
03-24-2008, 08:52 PM
that video was sweed sophmore year, here is a video of his junior season

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VBK10JNtH6E&feature=related

metafour
03-24-2008, 09:08 PM
That is why Id rather have Sweed. It is no slight against Thomas though. I would gladly take him as well. But we have explosive gamebreaker in Lee and Parrish, and I feel that we need a big posession guy more than another gamebreaker. Thats why Id prefer Sweed.

My "beef" with this argument is that Thomas himself is huge, super physical, and presents the ability to go up for the ball. From what I have seen he is more physical than Sweed is. He doesn't have Sweed's height, but he does a very good job of using his thick frame to box out defenders and snatch the ball out the the air. I'm just not that overly impressed with Sweed, and Bills fans in general seem to have developed this ridiculous belief that anyone not 6'4+ is somehow not a good fit. Thomas has everything we are looking for, literally. He also presents the most potential; who cares if we have Evans, if I'm talking about drafting a receiver that high I want a potential stud...not a #2 guy.

I'll go as far as saying that it wouldn't surprise me if Thomas ends up being the first receiver drafted, and I'm not even talking just Buffalo. I think that NFL Scouts have him a lot higher than the majority of internet draftniks who seem to be lagging behind (and we see cases of this every year where draftniks overvalue certain prospects and severely undervalue others).

Billingsley26
03-24-2008, 09:23 PM
My "beef" with this argument is that Thomas himself is huge, super physical, and presents the ability to go up for the ball. From what I have seen he is more physical than Sweed is. He doesn't have Sweed's height, but he does a very good job of using his thick frame to box out defenders and snatch the ball out the the air. I'm just not that overly impressed with Sweed, and Bills fans in general seem to have developed this ridiculous belief that anyone not 6'4+ is somehow not a good fit. Thomas has everything we are looking for, literally. He also presents the most potential; who cares if we have Evans, if I'm talking about drafting a receiver that high I want a potential stud...not a #2 guy.

I'll go as far as saying that it wouldn't surprise me if Thomas ends up being the first receiver drafted, and I'm not even talking just Buffalo. I think that NFL Scouts have him a lot higher than the majority of internet draftniks who seem to be lagging behind (and we see cases of this every year where draftniks overvalue certain prospects and severely undervalue others).

Well, like I said before, I woulnt have a problem if we took Thomas at #11. If we were going to grab a WR it would be between Sweed and Thomas. But like I said, Thomas really isnt that posession type guy like Sweed is. Thomas is like a bigger and stronger Lee Evans. Sweed is that red zone receiver that we need, and he presents that ability to go over the middle, and use his height to grab higher thrown balls that can be first downs. All, something we dont have.

etk
03-24-2008, 09:40 PM
that video was sweed sophmore year, here is a video of his junior season

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VBK10JNtH6E&feature=related

Looks like the same Sweed, except a little better after the catch. Thanks for the vid though, do you know of any clips or compilations of his Senior year before injury. That's the fairest evaluation.

etk
03-24-2008, 09:41 PM
That is why Id rather have Sweed. It is no slight against Thomas though. I would gladly take him as well. But we have explosive gamebreaker in Lee and Parrish, and I feel that we need a big posession guy more than another gamebreaker. Thats why Id prefer Sweed.

That's perfectly fine if you think Sweed is the better fit for your offense, but who do you think will be the more successful pro?

Billingsley26
03-24-2008, 09:54 PM
That's perfectly fine if you think Sweed is the better fit for your offense, but who do you think will be the more successful pro?

Its a tough call. To be honest, I think that Sweed will. He has great speed and agility for his size. Im not buying this whole "he cant get seperation" thing because from what IVe seen of him on tape, he can get seperation just fine. He is agilie enough, and can make people miss. Im really a fan of Sweed. If he can beef up a little more, I can see him taking on the a role very similar to that of Roy Williams.

With that said, I have nothing agaisnt Thomas, and I think he will be a fine pro. He may need a little longer to learn the trade, because I think that if a team like Buffalo drafts Sweed, he primariliy going to be there for one main reason. Thomas, depending on if he lands on a team that needs that a playmaker at the position, he will take time to grow. Still, I think they are the two that are easily at the top of the class.

etk
03-24-2008, 09:58 PM
His speed is a bit underrated, but I don't see the agility, and frankly he's very slow breaking in and out of cuts. He makes up for it well by adjusting to the ball in the air, plucking it, and taking hits, but I don't see the separation. Roy Williams is very far off IMO. I see more of a Keyshawn Johnson type in a best-case scenario, Maurice Stovall in a worst-case scenario.

foozball
03-24-2008, 10:02 PM
what the heck happened to his knees? were they always this bad or did he somehow injure himself?

Billingsley26
03-24-2008, 10:02 PM
His speed is a bit underrated, but I don't see the agility, and frankly he's very slow breaking in and out of cuts. He makes up for it well by adjusting to the ball in the air, plucking it, and taking hits, but I don't see the separation. Roy Williams is very far off IMO. I see more of a Keyshawn Johnson type in a best-case scenario, Maurice Stovall in a worst-case scenario.

I dont see anything wrong with the Keyshawn comparison. Like I said, if he went to Buffalo, they wouldnt be using him to catch a 3 yard out and hoping that he turns it into a 40 yard gain. In fact, if he did go to Buffalo, I wouldnt be surprised to see him with a relative low YAC. He would be used going deep across the middle on a skinny post or those deep ins or outs where you want a big tall guy to throw to. Perhaps running the fade in the endzone, which is going to be a must if Buffalo drafts him.

Thats why his agility, as I see it anyways, wont be that big of an issue, among other things.

etk
03-24-2008, 10:12 PM
I think he will flourish in Buffalo personally, I just wasn't a fan of your earlier assessment. He's a very natural big target on fades, deep ins/posts and comebacks. He has 0 elusiveness but he can break arm tackles on slants.

cdub11
03-24-2008, 10:51 PM
Looks like the same Sweed, except a little better after the catch. Thanks for the vid though, do you know of any clips or compilations of his Senior year before injury. That's the fairest evaluation.

i havent been able to find a video of this season, if i come across one ill let you know, he is not a burner by any means but he catches the ball as well as anyone in traffic, not just the wide open passes

thebow305
03-25-2008, 12:40 AM
I would love to have him at either # 33 or # 58

WMD
03-25-2008, 01:12 AM
I bet Mayock is getting paid a lot of money by an NFL team to put this out there.. hoping Kelly will fall to them in a later round. Yep, that's what I bet.

FA1
03-25-2008, 01:16 AM
I bet Mayock is getting paid a lot of money by an NFL team to put this out there.. hoping Kelly will fall to them in a later round. Yep, that's what I bet.

You're an idiot if you don't think teams are going to have their own doctors check this out.

Gatz
03-25-2008, 01:50 AM
I bet he was being serious. Yep, that's what I bet.

Meh I guess this wr draft is made even weaker, don't like this class of wrs much at all. James Hardy is prety much the only one I like.

metafour
03-25-2008, 06:10 AM
James Hardy is prety much the only one I like.

And the only one you like has by far the most question-marks and the highest bust factor out of all of the top receivers.

I dont really understand the Hardy hype with some....actually, the guy is 6'5+ with pretty good speed so I do understand it. I personally see a receiver who is so raw that I dont see him being able to do anything for a year or two except get used as a guy you can lob the ball to in the endzone. Hardy has "great" production, yet when you look at his stats the past two seasons you see very few (literally) above average performances against anyone that counts as a legit challenge. His weaknesses are huge, and they are the type that worry me a ton when I think about projecting a receiver. He struggles to get off the line and he has major problems against corners who can play him physical (aka: every starting corner in the NFL). He lacks overall physicality and doesn't play anywhere near his size should suggest (except maybe on jump balls). His route running needs major work. He has lapses of lost concentration. To top it all off, he also has some big character/maturity issues and his work ethic has been questioned. The guy got shutdown pretty much every time he faced either a good pass-defense or went up against a top corner.

I see a lot of people comparing him to Burress, but honestly, he is nowhere near as good as Burress was coming out of MSU...not even close.

Matthew Jones
03-25-2008, 07:29 AM
as much as i love devin thomas, i think #11 is still too high for him. i got chastised a few months back for saying he was a first rounder, that changed recently. but i dont think hell rise to 11.....hed be a reach there with only 1 year of real production

He could be this year's Troy Williamson IMO.

BeerBaron
03-25-2008, 09:15 AM
He could be this year's Troy Williamson IMO.

well....maybe in terms of how/where hes drafted but i really hope he works out better than that as a player

DeathbyStat
03-25-2008, 11:37 AM
if he can't play because of bum knees, it will be a wasted pick

Maybe he'll hold up for a two or three years for the a team thats on the verge of a title

etk
03-25-2008, 01:37 PM
He could be this year's Troy Williamson IMO.

Too bad he's bigger, slower and more productive. Williamson is just a classic case of reaching on a player because of his 40 time.....Thomas is not a "speed" receiver so it's a different case. He's much more balanced than Williamson.

Iamcanadian
03-26-2008, 07:12 AM
It's pretty simple, if Buffalo wants a WR in round 1, they will be trading down maybe twice. No WR in this draft is value at #11, or they will trade up with their 2nd and other picks for a 2nd late 1st rounder. There is no way they take a WR at #11.

Scott Wright
03-26-2008, 07:36 AM
I am still not so sure the Bills won't take Limas Sweed at #11. Would it be a reach? Maybe. However he is exactly what they need and also has the type of intangibles that franchise covets. Just something to keep in mind.

BeerBaron
03-26-2008, 10:29 AM
I have a trade in mind that might help the bills get better value on a WR. If my bears really want to get the OT of their choice before the broncos and panthers get to pick, it would only take one of their two 3rd rounders to swap with buffalo. The bears get whatever OT they want with the exception of long obviously, and the bills score a free 3rd rounder and still get whatever WR they want. plus these teams have a history of trading with one another a few times.

but, that probably makes too much sense to actually happen.....

mpt117
03-26-2008, 02:48 PM
if malcolm kellys knees are "so bad", then how did he play this past season and put up good numbers and garnered enough interest to come out early and be projected as a 1st round pick? seems odd to me...just sayin

BufFan71
03-26-2008, 02:54 PM
if malcolm kellys knees are "so bad", then how did he play this past season and put up good numbers and garnered enough interest to come out early and be projected as a 1st round pick? seems odd to me...just sayin

he wasnt even the best wr on the team



just sayin

PACKmanN
03-26-2008, 02:54 PM
I am still not so sure the Bills won't take Limas Sweed at #11. Would it be a reach? Maybe. However he is exactly what they need and also has the type of intangibles that franchise covets. Just something to keep in mind.

didn't they "reach" for a safety in the 05 draft that turned out to be a solid pick? I can see it happen, if they truly have fallen in love with him, and his upside.

metafour
03-26-2008, 08:33 PM
I am still not so sure the Bills won't take Limas Sweed at #11. Would it be a reach? Maybe. However he is exactly what they need and also has the type of intangibles that franchise covets. Just something to keep in mind.

The thing is, I think that Devin Thomas fits what we want even better than Sweed does. Yeah we need a taller receiver and Sweed is taller than Thomas, but to me he is primarily a vertical threat and that is NOT what we need. Thomas is more physical and will be better going across the middle and running intermediate routes. He is a better possession receiver than Sweed is, and his overall upside is better as well. He also already plays flanker (the position he would play in our offense) and as a Michigan native he fits the cold-weather better than Sweed. Chris Brown (who writes about the Bills on their official site) has even come out and said that Thomas is exactly what they are looking for.

MetSox17
03-26-2008, 08:55 PM
The thing is, I think that Devin Thomas fits what we want even better than Sweed does. Yeah we need a taller receiver and Sweed is taller than Thomas, but to me he is primarily a vertical threat and that is NOT what we need. Thomas is more physical and will be better going across the middle and running intermediate routes. He is a better possession receiver than Sweed is, and his overall upside is better as well. He also already plays flanker (the position he would play in our offense) and as a Michigan native he fits the cold-weather better than Sweed. Chris Brown (who writes about the Bills on their official site) has even come out and said that Thomas is exactly what they are looking for.

I wouldn't mind the bills trading down with the cowboys to get better value with devin thomas

Iamcanadian
03-27-2008, 05:08 AM
The thing is, I think that Devin Thomas fits what we want even better than Sweed does. Yeah we need a taller receiver and Sweed is taller than Thomas, but to me he is primarily a vertical threat and that is NOT what we need. Thomas is more physical and will be better going across the middle and running intermediate routes. He is a better possession receiver than Sweed is, and his overall upside is better as well. He also already plays flanker (the position he would play in our offense) and as a Michigan native he fits the cold-weather better than Sweed. Chris Brown (who writes about the Bills on their official site) has even come out and said that Thomas is exactly what they are looking for.

I just don't see where your getting the idea that Sweed is poor at crossing patterns, intermediate routes and is primarily a vertical threat. That doesn't describe Sweed at all. I do agree that Thomas is a proven cold weather player but Sweed leaves him in the dust as a team player.
It's hard to tell who they will draft as Levy is no longer their GM but what teams say before the draft can be very misleading.
The Bills are in a pretty good position to trade down and still get either player but I'd say Sweed is still the #1 WR in this draft not Thomas, if his wrist is OK.
I also wouldn't be shocked if they picked up another position at #11 and went WR in round 2.

metafour
03-27-2008, 05:56 AM
I'd say Sweed is still the #1 WR in this draft not Thomas, if his wrist is OK.

Why? I'm honestly asking because I just dont see anything overly special about Sweed at all. On a talented Texas team with good QBs he has an 800 yard season and a 500 yard season (I'm excluding his SR year where he went down with injury, but even this past season he wasn't doing anything special when he was healthy either). Everyone rags on Devin Thomas for only having one year of production, but at least his one year of production showed that he had elite ability. Devin Thomas basically played one year of college football and in his career (ie: one year) he only has roughly 700 yards less than Sweed does...who has played 4-5 times more games than Thomas has. In Devin Thomas' one year of production he caught nearly the same amount of balls as Sweed has in his last TWO healthy years at Texas (Thomas - 79 receptions in 2007, Sweed - 82 receptions in 2005 and 2006). Buffalo is looking for a possession receiver, and Sweed has never even had a season with 50 receptions. He is a vertical threat who has spent the majority of his collegiate career running deep routes, what other explanation could you have for low receptions but high YPC in basically every one of his seasons at Texas?

I'm not going to lie...I just dont like Limas Sweed that much. I think he is a "good" prospect who has lucked his way into the "#1 receiver" hype not because of his ability but because every other "top" receiver in this draft appears to have done something or has a glaring weakness that is affecting their stock (DeSean Jackson is a midget, Malcolm Kelly who I was never that overly high on now has healthy issues coming out the ass and no one even knows how fast he is, Devin Thomas literally only has one year of total production, Manningham is smaller and slower than expected and he has maturity issues, etc.)

Sniper
03-27-2008, 08:31 AM
Hardy has "great" production, yet when you look at his stats the past two seasons you see very few (literally) above average performances against anyone that counts as a legit challenge.

Two notable games from this year....

Iowa (Charles Godfrey): 4 catches, 113 yards, 1 TD, 28.3 ypc
Penn State (Justin King): 14 catches, 142 yards, 2 TD, 10.1 ypc (This game lost King a lot of money)

tom
03-27-2008, 09:09 AM
Two notable games from this year....

Iowa (Charles Godfrey): 4 catches, 113 yards, 1 TD, 28.3 ypc
Penn State (Justin King): 14 catches, 142 yards, 2 TD, 10.1 ypc (This game lost King a lot of money)

I have a problem with your sig... as a pens fan I don't want Ovech playing for us. He'd be too expensive and would be a waste. We've already got Malkin and Staal as far as superstar talent goes, and an all around amazing squad. I'd take Hossa anyday in so far as the money, picks and players needed to get Alex to pittsburgh. And don't worry, we aren't letting crosby get out of pitt alive.

Sniper
03-27-2008, 09:14 AM
I have a problem with your sig... as a pens fan I don't want Ovech playing for us. He'd be too expensive and would be a waste. We've already got Malkin and Staal as far as superstar talent goes, and an all around amazing squad. I'd take Hossa anyday in so far as the money, picks and players needed to get Alex to pittsburgh. And don't worry, we aren't letting crosby get out of pitt alive.

I apologize, but the chance to see Ovechkin score 93 goals and Crosby with 165 assists trumps everything. But that's a discussion for the NHL thread.

Anyways, Malcolm Kelly is good.

LLoyd Floyd-Boyd
03-27-2008, 09:26 AM
A Dan Pompei article from a couple of weeks ago:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/cs-080315-pompei-scout-talk,1,7751937.story

Malcolm Kelly, WR, Oklahoma. He was not able to work out at the combine or at Oklahoma's pro day because of a quadriceps injury, but his knees present a bigger problem. One has been reconstructed and another is arthritic. Kelly, once considered the highest-ranked receiver in the draft, now could have a problem passing some team's physical exams, and his draft stock could drop precipitously. Kelly is scheduled to work out April 9.

essential
03-27-2008, 11:56 AM
My "beef" with this argument is that Thomas himself is huge, super physical, and presents the ability to go up for the ball. From what I have seen he is more physical than Sweed is. He doesn't have Sweed's height, but he does a very good job of using his thick frame to box out defenders and snatch the ball out the the air. I'm just not that overly impressed with Sweed, and Bills fans in general seem to have developed this ridiculous belief that anyone not 6'4+ is somehow not a good fit. Thomas has everything we are looking for, literally. He also presents the most potential; who cares if we have Evans, if I'm talking about drafting a receiver that high I want a potential stud...not a #2 guy.

This is exactly my argument against drafting a WR in the first round all together. How often do teams draft their number two, big possession receiver, #11 overall in a draft? The only receivers drafted as early as #11 overall is because teams envision them as # 1s, or see them as having # 1 potential. Not many end up being # 1 receivers, but that’s usually what they team is drafting for, we aren’t. We have our # 1 receiver, you don’t draft a # 2 that high unless you pretty much set at every other position, which the Bills definitely are not. I am not saying Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, or Malcolm Kelly don't have #1 potential, I'm just saying that isn't what we need the most.

We should be able to find a good possession receiver later on in the draft. With the usual limited production from rookie WRs, I'd rather grab a guy later than early. I want Adarius Bowman, I think he offers everything we need and we can get him in the 3rd/4th. I don't care about his 4.7 40 speed, that's over-rated, and he plays much faster. I don't think his 4.7 straight line speed would effect him much as a # 2 WR seeing mostly single teams running good routes and being able to use his size to get into position, and going up for jump balls.

Besides, Brady made weak WRs look great for years, if Trent becomes half the QB most in Buffalo seem to see him as, he shouldn't need 1st rounders at every position to succeed, especially not at the big possession #2 receiver.

Looking further down the road than I should, and I guess this would be a good problem, but if we take Thomas/Sweed/Kelly and they become studs, we have a Moulds/Price, Fitzgerald/Boldin problem where someone usually wants out and it's very hard to pay/keep both. Even if they don't warrent #1 money at the end of their rookie contract, they want to be paid like a #1 either way. I don't want a stud, I want a very good team/role player like an Ernest Wilford or Joe Jurevicius.

Just my opinion.

LonghornsLegend
03-27-2008, 12:22 PM
I agree that Sweed would be a nice addition for the Bills, but I just don't see the logic in spending a top-15 pick on a receiver that rarely makes an uncontested catch. Sweed is as good as it gets for a possession receiver, but Thomas has the size/build and he's an explosive playmaker.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4AHAhZsrEL4&feature=related

watch this video....he makes many impressive catches but most of them are him using his body to make a catch or getting hit while he's making a catch. The guy struggles to separate from college DBs...


Your way off on Sweed thinking that he "struggles to seperate from college dbs", I dont buy that because he ran past every db that covered him and his favorite route was the deep ball...I dont remember many college highlights of Dwayne Jarrett running fades past smaller dbs, or catching screens and taking them to the house all of which Sweed has done...As well as that he's a huge possession type wr that can run a high 4.4, again Brandon Marshall runs a 4.5 so why would Sweed struggle vs seperation? Colston runs a 4.5 as well and I dont think he has any problems either.

I thought with him running a high 4.4 people would stop having doubts about seperation, he's a huge possesstion type wr he's not desean jackson, nobody expected him to run a 4.2...Now im not saying Thomas wont be better because he probably has a higher ceiling, but thats false assuming Sweed cannot and wont seperate at the next level, majority of scouts are already past that with him...If he was running a 4.6 and 4.7 like Bowman id buy it.

yourfavestoner
03-27-2008, 02:42 PM
Limas Sweed = a cross of Reggie Williams and Ernest Wilford
Just watch.

neko4
03-27-2008, 02:43 PM
Kelly should sit for a year. Tall WR's always have their knees targeted

etk
03-27-2008, 02:57 PM
Your way off on Sweed thinking that he "struggles to seperate from college dbs", I dont buy that because he ran past every db that covered him and his favorite route was the deep ball...I dont remember many college highlights of Dwayne Jarrett running fades past smaller dbs, or catching screens and taking them to the house all of which Sweed has done...As well as that he's a huge possession type wr that can run a high 4.4, again Brandon Marshall runs a 4.5 so why would Sweed struggle vs seperation? Colston runs a 4.5 as well and I dont think he has any problems either.

I thought with him running a high 4.4 people would stop having doubts about seperation, he's a huge possesstion type wr he's not desean jackson, nobody expected him to run a 4.2...Now im not saying Thomas wont be better because he probably has a higher ceiling, but thats false assuming Sweed cannot and wont seperate at the next level, majority of scouts are already past that with him...If he was running a 4.6 and 4.7 like Bowman id buy it.

Ran past DBs? Not from what I've seen....even on his highlight tape the only corners he ran past were on cupcake teams.

His favorite route was the deep ball? Maurice Stovall was the same way....big receivers love going deep and using their bodies to make catches...Sweed does it very well, but it doesn't mean he actually separates to make the catch. I also remember Jarrett doing the same thing Sweed did...using his body to catch deep balls and getting some good runs after the catch (Notre Dame and Michigan are examples).

Brandon Marshall is quick out of his breaks and very explosive for a big guy. He's also agile and elusive, something Sweed is not. Marshall can separate and he can create after the catch...who cares about his 40 time? Colston is a possession receiver that's big and physical with soft hands, and he's a great route runner who knows how to get open against zone coverage. Actually Sweed reminds me of Colston a lot they way he catches the ball across the middle but Colston is bigger and a better route runner.

Once again with the 40 time....Sweed ran a 4.5 at his Pro Day. Jordy Nelson also ran a 4.5 in his workouts. Both of them have good straight-line speed but that doesn't help much with regards to separation in the NFL. What matters most is when I saw Texas play or when I saw Sweed before his injury at the Senior Bowl or when I saw multiple highlight films of him, I never saw adequate separation. He makes a lot of spectacular catches in traffic, but the key word is traffic.

How do you know scouts think he will be fine with separation? Is that just another assumption based off his 40 time or do you actually have credible sources?

Once again, watch Malcolm Kelly or Devin Thomas' highlight tapes and then watch Sweed's. They're all big receivers, but only the first 2 manage to separate from defenders very often. Sweed has many advantages and strengths that Kelly and Thomas don't have, but one of them is not separation because he lacks in that area.

SuperMcGee
03-27-2008, 03:24 PM
This is exactly my argument against drafting a WR in the first round all together. How often do teams draft their number two, big possession receiver, #11 overall in a draft? The only receivers drafted as early as #11 overall is because teams envision them as # 1s, or see them as having # 1 potential. Not many end up being # 1 receivers, but thatís usually what they team is drafting for, we arenít. We have our # 1 receiver, you donít draft a # 2 that high unless you pretty much set at every other position, which the Bills definitely are not. I am not saying Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, or Malcolm Kelly don't have #1 potential, I'm just saying that isn't what we need the most.

We should be able to find a good possession receiver later on in the draft. With the usual limited production from rookie WRs, I'd rather grab a guy later than early. I want Adarius Bowman, I think he offers everything we need and we can get him in the 3rd/4th. I don't care about his 4.7 40 speed, that's over-rated, and he plays much faster. I don't think his 4.7 straight line speed would effect him much as a # 2 WR seeing mostly single teams running good routes and being able to use his size to get into position, and going up for jump balls.

Besides, Brady made weak WRs look great for years, if Trent becomes half the QB most in Buffalo seem to see him as, he shouldn't need 1st rounders at every position to succeed, especially not at the big possession #2 receiver.

Looking further down the road than I should, and I guess this would be a good problem, but if we take Thomas/Sweed/Kelly and they become studs, we have a Moulds/Price, Fitzgerald/Boldin problem where someone usually wants out and it's very hard to pay/keep both. Even if they don't warrent #1 money at the end of their rookie contract, they want to be paid like a #1 either way. I don't want a stud, I want a very good team/role player like an Ernest Wilford or Joe Jurevicius.

Just my opinion.

"Who wants an early WR when you can get Adarius Bowman in a late round?"
Seriously?
I want nothing more than a WR. Would he be our #2? Sure. Do I care? Not with our disgustingly bad receiving situation.

ChezPower4
03-27-2008, 03:42 PM
If this is a fact then i think that selecting him could be extremly dissaterous or the knee's wont be a factor and he will be a steal. I have him my 4th rated WR on my wideout board. This kinda makes you wonder

bitonti
03-27-2008, 04:01 PM
there was a draft 2001 where the WR crop were supposedly strong - David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Rod Gardner, Santana Moss, Freddie Mitchell, Reggie Wayne, Quincy Morgan, Chad Johnson, Robert Ferguson, Chris Chambers, Steve Smith etc.

That's how I feel about this 2008 WR crop... but overall weaker. It's just a weak crop and would not surprise me if the good players are gonna come from the 2nd not the 1st.

LonghornsLegend
03-27-2008, 04:17 PM
Ran past DBs? Not from what I've seen....even on his highlight tape the only corners he ran past were on cupcake teams.

His favorite route was the deep ball? Maurice Stovall was the same way....big receivers love going deep and using their bodies to make catches...Sweed does it very well, but it doesn't mean he actually separates to make the catch. I also remember Jarrett doing the same thing Sweed did...using his body to catch deep balls and getting some good runs after the catch (Notre Dame and Michigan are examples).

Brandon Marshall is quick out of his breaks and very explosive for a big guy. He's also agile and elusive, something Sweed is not. Marshall can separate and he can create after the catch...who cares about his 40 time? Colston is a possession receiver that's big and physical with soft hands, and he's a great route runner who knows how to get open against zone coverage. Actually Sweed reminds me of Colston a lot they way he catches the ball across the middle but Colston is bigger and a better route runner.

Once again with the 40 time....Sweed ran a 4.5 at his Pro Day. Jordy Nelson also ran a 4.5 in his workouts. Both of them have good straight-line speed but that doesn't help much with regards to separation in the NFL. What matters most is when I saw Texas play or when I saw Sweed before his injury at the Senior Bowl or when I saw multiple highlight films of him, I never saw adequate separation. He makes a lot of spectacular catches in traffic, but the key word is traffic.

How do you know scouts think he will be fine with separation? Is that just another assumption based off his 40 time or do you actually have credible sources?

Once again, watch Malcolm Kelly or Devin Thomas' highlight tapes and then watch Sweed's. They're all big receivers, but only the first 2 manage to separate from defenders very often. Sweed has many advantages and strengths that Kelly and Thomas don't have, but one of them is not separation because he lacks in that area.



OK, so Marshall runs a 4.5 but he's quick out of his breaks, agile, elusive, something Sweed isnt?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBK10JNtH6E&feature=related

at mark 2:49 id beg to differ with that...I just think its pretty ridiculous to say he wont create any seperation and then at the same time assume Malcolm Kelly will, ive watched all 3 guys highlight tapes plenty of times, as well as seeing kelly and sweed play plenty of games, nowere in Kelly's highlight tapes does he look like he creates better seperation.


How many plays of Kelly's did you find that he caught the ball in the flat and ran after the catch? Or ran past some defenders or made someone miss? When I watched I saw what you described Sweed's highlight tape as, alot of nice catches with his hands and body but majority of the time he caught the ball he fell down shortly after...He also wasnt catching screens and taking them to the house either, he didnt do much after the catch period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ZHjgrXArI


I saw maybe 2 plays on here where he had to run after the catch and those he was wide open on...If youve seen some plays where he has made guys miss in the flat like Sweed on that last clip please show me...I like Kelly and all, but im not buying that you think he can get nfl seperation and Sweed cannot from both of their highlight videos, especially since you havent even seen Kelly workout and have no idea what he would time in the 40...If he ran a 4.57 you would change your tune and as of now its simply assumptions all around...Sweed is the same speed as Sidney Rice, adding in his size he wont have any problems trying to seperate.

Thunder&Lightning
03-27-2008, 05:04 PM
I really dont think he will drop that far. Iv always thought of him as a 2nd rounder this just solidifies it. Sweed, Jackson, and Thomas will come off the board and some team will take a "chance" on him. I really dont like mayock anyway.

RayC
03-27-2008, 05:34 PM
Sweed is the same speed as Sidney Rice, adding in his size he wont have any problems trying to seperate.

True, he might not. But the operative word there would be "try". Sweed looks pretty lethargic getting off the line. He has great size and I see a lot of us talking about that, but he has to USE the size too.

As far as Kelly is concerned, I currently have him going 55th overall to Seattle in my mock.

Paranoidmoonduck
03-27-2008, 05:40 PM
My concern with Sweed has less to do with his physical potential and more with his inconsistent play over his college career.

Let's be clear here. This guy hasn't really done a whole lot in college. He made some really nice plays in big games, but the most this guy ever was in college was Colt McCoy's go to guy in the redzone, and even then he didn't top 50 receptions. People are worried Sweed won't get seperation in the pro's, which I think is legitimate, because he got inconsistent separation in the Big 12.

The high opinion of Sweed is somewhat surprising, but understandable. He has a decent highlight reel, he's an intelligent and great locker room guy, played with big pressure. However his "emergence" never happened in college, and that's really no one's fault but his own.

I don't think he should really be a top 20 pick, but in a year where all the wideouts that have produced have had some sort of failing in the predraft process, it's easy to elevate the guy who has been most impressive most recently.

etk
03-28-2008, 03:36 PM
OK, so Marshall runs a 4.5 but he's quick out of his breaks, agile, elusive, something Sweed isnt?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBK10JNtH6E&feature=related

at mark 2:49 id beg to differ with that...I just think its pretty ridiculous to say he wont create any seperation and then at the same time assume Malcolm Kelly will, ive watched all 3 guys highlight tapes plenty of times, as well as seeing kelly and sweed play plenty of games, nowere in Kelly's highlight tapes does he look like he creates better seperation.


How many plays of Kelly's did you find that he caught the ball in the flat and ran after the catch? Or ran past some defenders or made someone miss? When I watched I saw what you described Sweed's highlight tape as, alot of nice catches with his hands and body but majority of the time he caught the ball he fell down shortly after...He also wasnt catching screens and taking them to the house either, he didnt do much after the catch period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ZHjgrXArI


I saw maybe 2 plays on here where he had to run after the catch and those he was wide open on...If youve seen some plays where he has made guys miss in the flat like Sweed on that last clip please show me...I like Kelly and all, but im not buying that you think he can get nfl seperation and Sweed cannot from both of their highlight videos, especially since you havent even seen Kelly workout and have no idea what he would time in the 40...If he ran a 4.57 you would change your tune and as of now its simply assumptions all around...Sweed is the same speed as Sidney Rice, adding in his size he wont have any problems trying to seperate.

Agree to disagree then, but you're a Texas fan and I'm neutral therefore you're more prone to bias.

If Kelly ran a 4.9 it still wouldn't change my mind that he can separate much more effectively than Sweed. Unlike you I actually watch the players play and let their actual ability dictate my analysis. Who cares what they do in shorts as measured by a number when it doesn't translate to the field?

Where do you get the idea that I'm assuming things? You're the one who's assuming that a player who runs fast in a straight-line for 40 yards can separate, which is completely false. I watch Kelly play and he beats defenders much more often than Sweed, it's not a difficult concept and there's no projections or assumptions being made.

I don't doubt that Sweed has good speed and can make plays down the field like Sidney Rice, because I know he can. I do, however, see some valid concerns that Sweed won't be able to beat and break away from defenders on the rest of the route tree, but he's a hard worker so he can find ways to succeed even without the natural ability of a Kelly or Thomas.

LonghornsLegend
03-28-2008, 09:23 PM
Well Its not like you being a fan of Miami has stopped you from having one of the strongest opinions about Kenny Phillips, so I dont know why you would bring up me being a Texas fan, it be different if I were arguing Frank Okam was a 1st rd pick...And Id be willing to bet I saw alot more big 12 games of both OU and UT being in this area, now I dont think for one bit Sweed is on the level that Roy Williams was on of course, but your right we'll just have to disagree on the two...Because ive watched both of their highlight tapes extensively and saw Sweed run away from defenders alot more on his.

Paranoidmoonduck
03-28-2008, 09:35 PM
LonghornsLegend, I'd be interested to hear from a Texas fan about why Limas Sweed never really came into his own at Texas. We're talking about a guy who didn't even manage to average 3 catches a game over his career and a guy who, as a Senior, was on pace to have a 41 reception, 663 yard, 7 touchdown season had he not gotten injured.

LonghornsLegend
03-28-2008, 09:50 PM
LonghornsLegend, I'd be interested to hear from a Texas fan about why Limas Sweed never really came into his own at Texas. We're talking about a guy who didn't even manage to average 3 catches a game over his career and a guy who, as a Senior, was on pace to have a 41 reception, 663 yard, 7 touchdown season had he not gotten injured.

It could be due to a few different reasons:

1) The spread offense that we run isnt going to provide a WR with the same opportunities as a Pro Offense would, at least with ours because alot of the passing game is ran through the tight ends...He proved he was a big play guy when he made his famous catch at tOSU and he was usually reliable to make the big play in the clutch which counts for something...His junior year he was more of a guy when we need a big play we would go deep to him, the short passes for the most part went to tight ends and not the WR's.

2) His senior season is really hard for me to gauge, even with his start he had his wrist injury before the season even started, so when he started the 1st game he wasnt 100% and re-aggravated it a few games later...So being that he never really got to take off this year its hard for me to say it would of never happened after his junior season but thats up for debate...He could of went on to have another above average season or he could of "broke out" like alot of people expected.

3) He's not really an elite WR, he wasnt the game changer that Roy Williams was when we had him where he could take a slant to the house every time, so I wasnt expecting that type of domination from him...But I do believe a full senior year he would of been able to put up double digit tds and 1000+ yards, he's a hard worker and one of the guys you dont have to worry about relying on his talent...

etk
03-29-2008, 10:57 AM
Well Its not like you being a fan of Miami has stopped you from having one of the strongest opinions about Kenny Phillips, so I dont know why you would bring up me being a Texas fan, it be different if I were arguing Frank Okam was a 1st rd pick...And Id be willing to bet I saw alot more big 12 games of both OU and UT being in this area, now I dont think for one bit Sweed is on the level that Roy Williams was on of course, but your right we'll just have to disagree on the two...Because ive watched both of their highlight tapes extensively and saw Sweed run away from defenders alot more on his.

Bring up one instance where I've said something about Kenny Phillips that isn't correct and fair?

MetSox17
03-29-2008, 11:09 AM
It could be due to a few different reasons:

1) The spread offense that we run isnt going to provide a WR with the same opportunities as a Pro Offense would, at least with ours because alot of the passing game is ran through the tight ends...He proved he was a big play guy when he made his famous catch at tOSU and he was usually reliable to make the big play in the clutch which counts for something...His junior year he was more of a guy when we need a big play we would go deep to him, the short passes for the most part went to tight ends and not the WR's.

2) His senior season is really hard for me to gauge, even with his start he had his wrist injury before the season even started, so when he started the 1st game he wasnt 100% and re-aggravated it a few games later...So being that he never really got to take off this year its hard for me to say it would of never happened after his junior season but thats up for debate...He could of went on to have another above average season or he could of "broke out" like alot of people expected.

3) He's not really an elite WR, he wasnt the game changer that Roy Williams was when we had him where he could take a slant to the house every time, so I wasnt expecting that type of domination from him...But I do believe a full senior year he would of been able to put up double digit tds and 1000+ yards, he's a hard worker and one of the guys you dont have to worry about relying on his talent...

Could not have said it better myself. Texas has been blessed with absolutely great running backs every year that Limas has been there, so you can't really look at his numbers and see an average receiver.

One more point that could have been made is the quarterback play.
When Vince Young was there, it was always run-option first, and when it was a run option/play action, he either scrambled around or threw to the two NFL TE's there was.

Colt McCoy's RS FR year was his best year statistically, why?
Because he was not a run first option player, and he was healthy for the most part of the season. Let's not forget that he put up 46 catches
and 12 touchdowns with a freshman quarterback, who got banged up
twice, so he played with Jevan Snead at QB.
Charles was always the focal point of the offense, hence the
slow days at times.

Another thing to look at is the way Texas would blow out teams.
You can't put up much receiving numbers when your team only
throws the ball in the first half right?
People that think he'll be JUST a possession receiver, and pass on him
for that, are gonna regret that.

Let this kid play in a pro-offense, get coached up on running
pro routes and run blocking, and he's gonna be a complete stud.
he has the size, hands, athleticism and necessary speed to do it.

etk
03-29-2008, 11:18 AM
I've never seen more excuses in my life.....so you're telling me that having one of the greatest college football players of all time, a top 3 pick and starting NFL QB hurt Sweed's production.....right. So it didn't help Sweed that teams stacked the box to stop Charles, S. Young and VY's running threat.....it only hurt him when they ran PA and Sweed had open seams to enter and constant single coverage.....right.

And Malcolm Kelly playing on a team with Adrian Peterson, Allen Patrick and DeMarco Murray.....Kelly was the real focal point of the offense, especially when stud QB Paul Thompson was chucking him the ball.

MetSox17
03-29-2008, 11:25 AM
I've never seen more excuses in my life.....so you're telling me that having one of the greatest college football players of all time, a top 3 pick and starting NFL QB hurt Sweed's production.....right. So it didn't help Sweed that teams stacked the box to stop Charles, S. Young and VY's running threat.....it only hurt him when they ran PA and Sweed had open seams to enter and constant single coverage.....right.

And Malcolm Kelly playing on a team with Adrian Peterson, Allen Patrick and DeMarco Murray.....Kelly was the real focal point of the offense, especially when stud QB Paul Thompson was chucking him the ball.

Go look at his stats and see how they were improving as the years went on.
You can accredit that to what you wish, but it's no coincidence that as soon as they get a Quarterback that can actually throw the ball, his production goes up. You can't compare Malcolm Kelly's numbers to Sweed's because they play in different Offenses. It's like comparing Shawne Merriman's sack numbers to a LB in a 4-3. Same thing. Vince Young was great in College Football because he was never asked to make reads in coverage, that's why he ran around a lot, just waiting for someone to get open. He's proved nothing in the NFL, just all of his critics right that he can't throw the ball worth a darn.

LonghornsLegend
03-29-2008, 11:56 AM
Bring up one instance where I've said something about Kenny Phillips that isn't correct and fair?

What wasnt correct and fair with what I said about Sweed? Your acting like my argument isnt valid because Im a Texas fan and I said that never stopped you from defending Phillips...and im not sure if you were talking to me but I never made excuses for Sweed, it seems like your trying to nitpick even when people give fair opinions...Its not ok for me to talking about his surrounding factors but its ok for you to bring up a million reasons why Phillips struggled his junior year.

Im not gonna tell you Limas Sweed sucks, Im not gonna tell you he's an elite wr either, so what are you arguing?

Larry
03-29-2008, 12:27 PM
I don't like Sweed, not enough short area quickness and I don't think he'll be physical enough to beat press coverage in the NFL. Honestly I think he's this years Dwayne Jarrett.

Larry121283
04-01-2008, 04:15 PM
I'm still questioning the validity of this story. Sounds like typical draft banter.

I've been a firm proponent since the beginning of the college season that Kelly should be the #1 WR off the board.

If his shows off his 'Corey Simon' before the draft, I see no reason why he won't be the #1 guy off the board. I haven't seen many 6'4" 215 pound WRs that are as fluid as him going in and out of his route cuts in recent years.

keylime_5
04-01-2008, 04:22 PM
Sweed has top 10 talent but he never put it together and had a big breakout year on the field. I think he can get separation in the NFL with his size and speed, but the question is will he get the speed of the NFL game down and run the routes to get open enough against top competition.

Kelly was more explosive in college but he too has problem getting seperation and he had a fast start to his junior year followed by a terrible 2nd half, and add the knees to the equation and he probably shouldn't be drafted any higher than Sweed. B

ased on everything Devin Thomas has shown he looks like he should be picked before both of those two, the only question on him was that he only had the one big year and hasn't proven to be a dominant player, though his junior year was borderline. If Thomas stayed another year and proved he can be a dominating #1 WR I think his stock would've helped, but there was nothing wrong with foregoing his senior year since he'll get paid probably just the same only no injury risk.

I like Mario Manningham more than all of them but he won't go before any unfortunately due to size, injuries, hands, etc. Desean Jackson is the best WR in this draft, but Buffalo won't take another small speedy receiver in the first, he'll be a better fit in Denver, Philly, Tampa, Washington, Dallas, or Tennessee.

Sniper
04-01-2008, 04:26 PM
Desean Jackson is the best WR in this draft, but Buffalo won't take another small speedy receiver in the first, he'll be a better fit in Philly

1. No he's not
2. No he wouldn't

keylime_5
04-01-2008, 04:42 PM
1.Everyone's scared of the little WR but there's been more than enough of the smaller speedy WRs who tear it up in the NFL.
2.Philly needs a big play guy to go with Curtis and Brown and Jackson runs better routes, has better hands, and can get better seperation thanks to his routes and 4.33 speed than Sweed, Kelly, or Thomas. He's a great KR/PR too and the iggles could use one of them too.

etk
04-01-2008, 05:00 PM
1.Everyone's scared of the little WR but there's been more than enough of the smaller speedy WRs who tear it up in the NFL.
2.Philly needs a big play guy to go with Curtis and Brown and Jackson runs better routes, has better hands, and can get better seperation thanks to his routes and 4.33 speed than Sweed, Kelly, or Thomas. He's a great KR/PR too and the iggles could use one of them too.

1. Name me one 5'9" 169 receiver that has torn up the NFL. Nowadays with CBs like Aso and Mathis that seems even more unlikely. NFL defenses are too big and physical for Jackson to survive, and it's not like he tore up college last year either other than one PR against Tennessee and some big plays against Air Force.

2. Philly runs a WCO iirc.....Thomas and Kelly are perfect fits as they are big receivers than can run a full route tree and make plays after the catch. They don't need a slot for a shotgun spread unless they're going to use Kevin Kolb's old college offense. Thomas and Kelly separate fine, but Jackson won't even get past the LOS.

3. I don't think Jackson has ever returned a kick in his college career, but even if he has he will never do so in the NFL. He's strictly a punt returner at his size.

Once again, it would be foolish for any team to spend a top 20 pick on the next Roscoe Parrish.

keylime_5
04-01-2008, 05:16 PM
Roscoe Parrish wasn't in the vicinity of how productive or good a playmaker Jackson was in college so lay off the stupid comparisons. Philly does like big receivers but that doesn't mean a smaller guy could be really awesome even in a WCO. I don't think Phillly will pick Jackson, but he would be a nice upgrade for their receving corps. Also, there really hasn't ever been a big name WR like Jackson who was as small as he is at 5-10/169 so it's pretty hard to find one who excelled just as it is to find one who didn't do anything b/c there's not really one of either. But there are a lot of smaller guys who are great even though they are all in the 180-195 range not 170. The only 170 guy I can think of who was taken at the top of round 2 was Northcutt, but if he has the route running skills and if he had even close to as good of hands as Jackson then he'd be an elite WR with his speed and awareness and punt return ability. And no, Jackson probably won't return kicks but he could if he had to and would be great at it.

etk
04-01-2008, 05:31 PM
Okay let's see the arguments here:

-playmaking and production: I'll let you look the stats up here since I did so in the last Jackson thread....they actually have very close and similar college production and Parrish made more plays for Buffalo in the NFL than Jackson did for Cal this past year.

-big name: Now I see where you get this idea that Parrish isn't on Jackson's level....he doesn't have a big name. You are right though...Jackson does have a great reputation but he hasn't lived up to it. He was a top recruit out of high school and a promising playmaker as a sophomore but as a Junior he fell entirely out of the spotlight. Big name does not always equal big game and frankly I haven't seen it from Jackson.

Smaller guys with success: Dennis Northcutt sucks. Joey Galloway, at about 195 (26 pounds heavier than Jackson) gets beat up by press coverage and NFL hits across the middle. I see it with my own eyes every week as a Bucs fan. Jackson will get it worse at his size.

Jackson's stengths: Route running and hands? Every draft profile of his has indicated that he's not a good route runner. He drops a ton of passes as well.

Returning kicks: 169 pounds.....I don't think so. He would get beat up.

Sniper
04-01-2008, 06:00 PM
Roscoe Parrish wasn't in the vicinity of how productive or good a playmaker Jackson was in college so lay off the stupid comparisons. Philly does like big receivers but that doesn't mean a smaller guy could be really awesome even in a WCO. I don't think Phillly will pick Jackson, but he would be a nice upgrade for their receving corps. Also, there really hasn't ever been a big name WR like Jackson who was as small as he is at 5-10/169 so it's pretty hard to find one who excelled just as it is to find one who didn't do anything b/c there's not really one of either. But there are a lot of smaller guys who are great even though they are all in the 180-195 range not 170. The only 170 guy I can think of who was taken at the top of round 2 was Northcutt, but if he has the route running skills and if he had even close to as good of hands as Jackson then he'd be an elite WR with his speed and awareness and punt return ability. And no, Jackson probably won't return kicks but he could if he had to and would be great at it.

A) No he wouldn't. He was in a WCO this year and averaged 11.7 yards per catch.
B) Big name? Because he's a good punt returner and was highly hyped out of high school doesn't mean he was an amazing WR.
C) Roscoe Parrish wasn't statistically as good as Jackson in college because he played for Miami during their heyday, where he played second and third fiddle to some really good receivers. Jackson had to beat out, um, nobody.
D) Roscoe Parrish's combine/Pro Day stats
4.37 40
2.54 20
1.56 10
4.20 short shuttle
36 inch vertical
6.64 3 cone
DeSean Jackson's combine/Pro Day stats
4.33 40
2.52 40
1.53 10
4.19 short shuttle
34 1/2 inch vertical
6.82 3 cone

Pretty similar IMO.

keylime_5
04-01-2008, 06:04 PM
Jackson runs just fine routes and his hands are definitely adequate thank you. He's not Jerry Rice with the routes or Cris Carter with the hands but he's not a liability there. Jackson could return kicks if wanted, he's only about 10 lbs. less than Ginn and about 15 less than Hester if that, but being a top 2 WR on his team and the lead PR I think that is a moot point. Jackson had 1000+ yds. and over 19 ypc with Marshawn Lynch in the backfield his sophomore year when he was healthy and when Longshore was way more proficient when Cal was a better team. Jackson's gonna be great, I don't care how big he is or isn't, Joey Galloway is small and has problems with his size that you would expect but is still one of the best wideouts in the NFC right now at like 35. If Jackson turns out to be another Galloway then he's worth the first round pick.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-01-2008, 06:08 PM
Comparative scouting is remarkably misleading almost every single time. Parrish didn't have a fraction of the receiving ability coming out of Miami that Jackson has.

keylime_5
04-01-2008, 06:14 PM
Yeah, there's a reason why Parrish was considered a late second round reach in his draft and why some view Jackson as the top WR in this draft and a surefire first round pick.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-01-2008, 06:20 PM
Mostly, what I don't get, is pointing to Jackson's YPC his junior year as if that indicates that he isn't a deep threat or something. Cal changed offensive coordinators, and went from a spread offense that liked to go deep to a very conservative west coast offense that limited the pass game to make up for shoddy quarterback play (this got more and more drastic as the season wore on). No one in the Cal offense averaged over 15 yard per catch in 2007, while in 2006 both Hawkins and Jackson had managed to.

Anyone who's watched Jackson knows that he beats the press well, and finds and secures the deep ball remarkably well for a man of his stature and strength.

etk
04-01-2008, 08:58 PM
A) No he wouldn't. He was in a WCO this year and averaged 11.7 yards per catch.
B) Big name? Because he's a good punt returner and was highly hyped out of high school doesn't mean he was an amazing WR.
C) Roscoe Parrish wasn't statistically as good as Jackson in college because he played for Miami during their heyday, where he played second and third fiddle to some really good receivers. Jackson had to beat out, um, nobody.
D) Roscoe Parrish's combine/Pro Day stats
4.37 40
2.54 20
1.56 10
4.20 short shuttle
36 inch vertical
6.64 3 cone
DeSean Jackson's combine/Pro Day stats
4.33 40
2.52 40
1.53 10
4.19 short shuttle
34 1/2 inch vertical
6.82 3 cone

Pretty similar IMO.

Exactly Sniper.....Parrish put up similar stats to Jackson in their final years, but Parrish played on a power running offense with a handful of stud NFL backs, Andre Johnson and Kellen Winslow Jr. among others. His receiving skills and talents are also very comparable to Jackson but I will concede that Jackson is a better playmaker and scoring threat. As was said earlier, the main thing separating Parrish from Jackson as prospects is Jackson has a big name and Parrish didn't. Players with collegiate hype, warranted or not, always get overdrafted.

On a side note, Jackson also has character issues with questions about his maturity and selfishness as a receiver. Parrish is the consummate team player in contrast to Jackson. Put Jackson in an offense like Philadelphia where the ball gets distributed evenly among the receivers, tight ends and backs and you could see a very unhappy cancer in the locker room.

Give me Kelly, Thomas, Sweed, Manningham, etc. over Jackson any day The fact that Scott has DeSean Jackson ranked 2nd among receivers and Dexter Jackson is ranked 17th is mind boggling. How can two players so similar be so far apart?

Paranoidmoonduck
04-01-2008, 11:48 PM
etk, you're making very little sense.

Portraying Jackson as a locker room "cancer" is pure, unadulterated fabrication. The guy didn't make a single peep about his role in the Cal offense last year, which was basically to draw the double team and be a target on the screen to set up the run.

Portraying Parrish has having comparable receiving skills is disingenuous, mostly because Jackson had a similar career YPC and caught twice as many balls, racked up twice as many receiving yards, and hauled in twice as many touchdown passes.

Jackson has question marks. He isn't perfect. But you're being ridiculous and nonsensical.

keylime_5
04-02-2008, 08:26 AM
Dexter Jackson and Roscoe Parrish weren't close to the playmaker of a Desean Jackson. Jackson was closer to Peter Warrick, Joey Galloway or Ted Ginn in college than those 2. Heck throw in Santonio Holmes too without the blocking ability and not quite as good of routes. Point is Jackson was a true number one and probably the best WR in the pac ten last season, those other two guys were never really viewed as number 1 big play dangerous explosive top offensive weapons like Ginn or Jackson or Galloway, etc. I never get why there is so much hate for the smaller WR on here.

AtariBigby
04-02-2008, 08:39 AM
I hear ya Lime, but you yourself mentioned Peter Warrick.... he did more than Djack did in college, and ended up faling in the NFL.
Ted Ginn didn't exactly light it up as a rookie either, while other WRs like Dwayne Bowe and James Jones, Sidney Rice did a lot better than Ginn...... sometimes the speed in college against more scrubs, doesn't translate into the NFL against 11 faster guys every play.

But I like Ginn still, not sold on DeSean Jackson though.

Purple N Proud
04-02-2008, 10:46 AM
I know I haven't posted in awhile, but I have kept up on reading.

I was just wondering if anyone remembered about this time last year when everyone was comparing Ted Ginn and Desean Jackson. It seems to me that a lot of people here have changed their minds. Back then EVERYone loved Jackson and said he was a FAR superior prospect compared to Ginn. Now I'm a Buckeye fan (ever the homer) so I never bought into it, and I wanna know what happened? I mean, we always knew Jackson was gonna be a small guy.

keylime_5
04-02-2008, 12:08 PM
I was just comparing Jackson to Warrick in terms of how good he was in college, not how good of a pro he'll be. I think Jackson is gonna be a lot more like Joey Galloway in the NFL than Peter Warrick. Ted Ginn had a decent rookie year on the worst team in the league and got better as the year went on. Ginn will be a good pro, as long as he builds on his rookie season he'll be fine. Year 3 is the first year you should start to judge an NFL receiver.

But desean is just too explosive a playmaker who runs good routes can catch and has most of the fundamentals and other things that would otherwise cause him to be a bust in the NFL.

keylime_5
04-02-2008, 12:09 PM
I know I haven't posted in awhile, but I have kept up on reading.

I was just wondering if anyone remembered about this time last year when everyone was comparing Ted Ginn and Desean Jackson. It seems to me that a lot of people here have changed their minds. Back then EVERYone loved Jackson and said he was a FAR superior prospect compared to Ginn. Now I'm a Buckeye fan (ever the homer) so I never bought into it, and I wanna know what happened? I mean, we always knew Jackson was gonna be a small guy.

I think that debate quieted down after Jackson had a worse junior year than he did a sophomore year. Ginn got better every year and was on a top 5 team.

etk
04-02-2008, 03:30 PM
etk, you're making very little sense.

Portraying Jackson as a locker room "cancer" is pure, unadulterated fabrication. The guy didn't make a single peep about his role in the Cal offense last year, which was basically to draw the double team and be a target on the screen to set up the run.

Portraying Parrish has having comparable receiving skills is disingenuous, mostly because Jackson had a similar career YPC and caught twice as many balls, racked up twice as many receiving yards, and hauled in twice as many touchdown passes.

Jackson has question marks. He isn't perfect. But you're being ridiculous and nonsensical.

This is coming from other sources, so they might be incorrect, but seeing his personality on television I wouldn't be shocked if the "MeSean" rumors were true.

Parrish had 43 catches for 693 yards and 8 TDs in his Junior year, his first year in the spotlight as a primary target and starter. He also averaged 16.2 yard per punt return for 2 scores. Jackson had less touchdowns and about the same amount of yards on more catches in his Junior season. He also averages 6 less yards per return and only had 1 PR TD. It would appear that Parrish actually made more plays in his final college season than Jackson. Thanks for calling me ridiculous and nonsensical when you are the person with clear personal bias towards Jackson, as evidenced by the way you spun their stats unfairly to suit your argument.

Dexter Jackson and Roscoe Parrish weren't close to the playmaker of a Desean Jackson. Jackson was closer to Peter Warrick, Joey Galloway or Ted Ginn in college than those 2. Heck throw in Santonio Holmes too without the blocking ability and not quite as good of routes. Point is Jackson was a true number one and probably the best WR in the pac ten last season, those other two guys were never really viewed as number 1 big play dangerous explosive top offensive weapons like Ginn or Jackson or Galloway, etc. I never get why there is so much hate for the smaller WR on here.

Dexter Jackson made plenty of plays against Michigan and in all-star game practices. He is the same kind of dynamic athlete and playmaker as Jackson is. Read the earlier part of the post where I disprove your theory that Jackson is a much-superior playmaker to Parrish. Your subjective opinions are becoming quite redundant.

Jackson was a true #1? It's odd that Lavelle Hawkins caught more passes on the same team then. I don't even think Jackson was the best receiver on his own team let alone the whole conference.

Jackson is nothing like Joey Galloway or Ted Ginn. All they share is speed.

You keep bringing how the media views certain players. There couldn't be a more irrelevant argument than who the media decides is good or not.

Why is there so much hate for the smaller receiver? The smaller receiver rarely produces, at least not when they're below-average JV size.

etk
04-02-2008, 03:34 PM
I know I haven't posted in awhile, but I have kept up on reading.

I was just wondering if anyone remembered about this time last year when everyone was comparing Ted Ginn and Desean Jackson. It seems to me that a lot of people here have changed their minds. Back then EVERYone loved Jackson and said he was a FAR superior prospect compared to Ginn. Now I'm a Buckeye fan (ever the homer) so I never bought into it, and I wanna know what happened? I mean, we always knew Jackson was gonna be a small guy.

Jackson was listed as 6'0" 172 on all the draft sites and most expected him to weigh in heavier than that number because of how important it was to his draft stock. Jackson measured up shorter and lighter, and his size is a major issue. His production fell off as a Junior and he lost the spotlight as he saw the endzone less and Cal lost a lot of games.

I still think Jackson is a better prospect than Ginn because he's better at making people miss, but Ginn has more potential because he has enough size to make some plays across the middle.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-02-2008, 04:40 PM
This is coming from other sources, so they might be incorrect, but seeing his personality on television I wouldn't be shocked if the "MeSean" rumors were true.

Parrish had 43 catches for 693 yards and 8 TDs in his Junior year, his first year in the spotlight as a primary target and starter. He also averaged 16.2 yard per punt return for 2 scores. Jackson had less touchdowns and about the same amount of yards on more catches in his Junior season. He also averages 6 less yards per return and only had 1 PR TD. It would appear that Parrish actually made more plays in his final college season than Jackson. Thanks for calling me ridiculous and nonsensical when you are the person with clear personal bias towards Jackson, as evidenced by the way you spun their stats unfairly to suit your argument.

Yes, my clear bias for Jackson that has him ranked as the 4th best wideout available, below almost every single expert out there. My clear bias that has me using as large a sample size as possible, instead of using your obviously superior method of using whichever year best proves your point.

My issue is that you speak with such confidence on a situation that you obviously have no familiarity with.

cdub11
04-03-2008, 10:54 AM
Kelly's agent says he is 100% and ready to work out on April 9
i guess we will just have to see how his workout goes

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80781b30&template=without-video&confirm=true

keylime_5
04-03-2008, 12:15 PM
I think if he checks out medically and Buffalo stays put at #11 overall then that's where Malcolm will go (that is unless he bombs and runs a 4.6 or worse and maybe doesn't jump but 20 inches).

MetSox17
04-03-2008, 01:46 PM
I'm excited to see what Kelly runs.

+/- on what Kelly runs.. I'll put it at 4.54

I'll take the over.

cdub11
04-03-2008, 03:53 PM
ill take the over as well

etk
04-03-2008, 03:57 PM
Yes, my clear bias for Jackson that has him ranked as the 4th best wideout available, below almost every single expert out there. My clear bias that has me using as large a sample size as possible, instead of using your obviously superior method of using whichever year best proves your point.

My issue is that you speak with such confidence on a situation that you obviously have no familiarity with.

I think, well actually I know, that I have more knowledge about DeSean Jackson than you do about Roscoe Parrish, so how about you try to be less of a hypocrite?

no love
04-03-2008, 04:55 PM
I think, well actually I know, that I have more knowledge about DeSean Jackson than you do about Roscoe Parrish, so how about you try to be less of a hypocrite?

Interesting bc most Cal games were on Versus and FSN Bay Area... do you get those in Florida?

etk
04-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Interesting bc most Cal games were on Versus and FSN Bay Area... do you get those in Florida?

I'm only in Florida about 1 month of the year, but I get plenty of PAC-10 games in Toronto on my sports package.

I watch bowl season in Florida though.

proshoota25
04-03-2008, 08:13 PM
I'm excited to see what Kelly runs.

+/- on what Kelly runs.. I'll put it at 4.54

I'll take the over.

gotta go with over