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thebow305
03-26-2008, 12:20 AM
Just found this in Armando Salguero's blog on the Miami Herald website, titled: Dolphins in Depth

http://dolphinsindepth.blogspot.com/

It is the last entry on this page so you have to scroll down quite a bit.


Written on Friday, March 14th


Dolphins not paying great attention to Jake Long


Just got off the phone with a source who was at Jake Long's pro day today in Michigan.

For those of you excited about him being the possible first overall pick to the Dolphins ... I would chill on that idea.

The Dolphins had one representative at the workout today. The St. Louis Rams, who pick second in the draft and believe they have to find someone to replace Orlando Pace, had about a dozen pairs of eyes on Long's work.

[SATURDAY UPDATE: As has been the talk on this thread, Long will work for the Dolphins in a private screening, so to speak. So will Matt Ryan, so will Chris Long and perhaps others. That of itself is not an indication Miami will pick him.]

Long did not run Friday. He simply did position-related drills. If you're a Dolphins fan, it shouldn't matter what he did. He is not the pick.

Look, this is a good draft for offensive tackles. The Dolphins have a need in that they don't have a right tackle. If you believe they're moving Vernon Carey back to right tackle, something the Dolphins have not confirmed, they don't have a left tackle.

But the fact is they can still draft a tackle with the first pick of the second round and fill the position. The fact is they can live with Carey at LT and let the rookie play RT. The fact is this deep tackle class might offer a LT in the second round. The fact is Bill Parcells has not traditionally spent high picks on offensive linemen.

The fact is if Tony Sparano is as good a line coach as everyone says, they can find a diamond in the rough after the first pick and turn him into a diamond on the line. The fact is Jake Long, for all his gifts, is not a No. 1 overall pick type of talent.

By the way, Long is still a pretty good player. He was penalized for a holding once as a redshirt freshman and had one false start as a senior. But that didn't mean he didn't cheat a little.

“Absolutely. I’ll admit that I hold,” Long said with a laugh at the first day of the NFL scouting combine last month. “I’ll get my hands inside and hide it that I’m holding.”

The Rams will be thrilled. Your thoughts?


Doesn't sound like we are real interested, compared to some of the other prospects out there. I know this is not REAL definitive, but it is SOMETHING.

Finsfan79
03-26-2008, 10:00 AM
it is an opinion piece by him but that is what he often does if you follow his writing.

I can see his points but I dont feel Chris long is near a number 1 overall talent and Jake long's talent and potential is far better still then Chris'

thebow305
03-26-2008, 10:42 AM
it is an opinion piece by him but that is what he often does if you follow his writing.

I can see his points but I dont feel Chris long is near a number 1 overall talent and Jake long's talent and potential is far better still then Chris'

Is that a joke? Jake Long isn't even a complete player, he will be a RT in the NFL, probably a pretty good one, but would be a very average LT. Chris Long can play about every position on the defensive line, plus outside linebacker and play it very well, at a VERY HIGH level. He is the safest pick in the draft, if I was to go another direction I would say Gholston has far more potential than Jake too. Who's the only person Jake couldn't stop in his career? Vernon Gholston. And he will have to play against elite talent like that every week. People tend not to make a big deal about that, which is a HUGE mistake. I'm happy for him that he was able to dominate all the other average college DE's, but when he went against Gholston, an NFL calibre DE, he got abused. The pick has to be Chris Long or Gholston, anything else would be a mistake, especially Jake Long.

BigBlueCrew56
03-26-2008, 10:53 AM
Thanks for the post Bow but I read that article the day It came out. I even post on Armando's blog. It was just an opinion and the dude doesnt have connections worth squat. He didnt even know that the Phins had a private workout scheduled for him until someone brought it to his attention. His so called source advised him that the Phins only had two scouts there but failed to mention that there is a private workout already scheduled for him where the entire brass will put him through there own workout. There was no need for them to be there since they already evaluted him at the combine and knew he wasnt going to be doing much. I do appreciate the headline on the blog though made out to me :-) made me feel special thanks. HAHAHAHA

BigBlueCrew56
03-26-2008, 10:54 AM
People posting on his blog made him feel soooo stupid that he had to post a saturday update to his garbage opinion.

BigBlueCrew56
03-26-2008, 11:02 AM
We are missing our entire left side of an offensive line. We are probably going to have two young QB's and a journeyman. I dont think there is anyway we make it out of the 1st round without taking an offensive lineman. Especially with them projecting to take QB in the 2nd round. Wether it's Jake Long or a trade down for Ryan Clady...One of them has to be the pick. Trade seeming unlikely at this point so Jake Long is still going to be my favorite.

Sniper
03-26-2008, 11:15 AM
And he will have to play against elite talent like that every week. People tend not to make a big deal about that, which is a HUGE mistake. I'm happy for him that he was able to dominate all the other average college DE's, but when he went against Gholston, an NFL calibre DE, he got abused. The pick has to be Chris Long or Gholston, anything else would be a mistake, especially Jake Long.

Giving up one sack means getting abused? And by "average college DEs" you mean guys um, I don't know, Anthony Spencer? Derrick Harvey? Lawrence Jackson? Tamba Hali? Jonal Saint-Dic? Brian Robison? Tim Crowder? Because Long played against all of those mediocre DEs, and shut them all down.

Ryan Clady gave up 8-9 sacks this year, but I don't hear anyone questioning his ability to play LT. What's with the Long hate?

BigBlueCrew56
03-26-2008, 01:41 PM
I cant even tell you where all this Long hate comes from. He ranks as the #2 rated player in this draft on many boards either behind the likes of Darren McFadden or Chris Long but yet everyone says how slow he will be or how he is type casted as a RT. Now dont get me wrong if we didnt have just one offensive tackle on the roster I would be all for getting C. Long or Gholston. But the fact is we need to protect the QB and we need to grab the best offensive lineman on the board. Jake Long can easily be justified as being the #1 pick much like everyone easily justifies him going #2 to the Rams.

Joeyjr09
03-26-2008, 09:10 PM
I cant even tell you where all this Long hate comes from. He ranks as the #2 rated player in this draft on many boards either behind the likes of Darren McFadden or Chris Long but yet everyone says how slow he will be or how he is type casted as a RT. Now dont get me wrong if we didnt have just one offensive tackle on the roster I would be all for getting C. Long or Gholston. But the fact is we need to protect the QB and we need to grab the best offensive lineman on the board. Jake Long can easily be justified as being the #1 pick much like everyone easily justifies him going #2 to the Rams.

Yes Long had a better college career then Clady. No questions asked. Long was a stud in college. However, the players are picked in the draft based on their upside for the future just as much as for their play in college. Jake Long is a stud but does he have as much of a ceiling as Clady? I have my doubts. Also while Long did protect against some very solid DE in his days at UM, I also don't think he ever had to go against a Jason Taylor, Dwight Freeney, Osi Umenyora or Jerad Allen. Those are the type of guys that Jake will face at the next level. Who knows how he handles that.

There's no doubt in my mind that Jake will be a solid starting LT in the NFL. But with the number 1 pick, I don't want a solid starting LT. I want a Walter Jones. And while I would be ok with a Flozell Adams type, a guy who makes a few Pro Bowls and is good thru his entire career, I'm not sure Jake can even reach that level at LT. I see him having a Matt Light type of career, and Matt Light is not a number 1 type of pick in anyway shape or form in my eyes. He's solid and dependable but he has his lapses and struggles at times. That's what I think we'll see out of Jake Long at LT.

With Clady, I see differently. He's not a sure bet to have a solid career like Jake is. He could end up being a big bust because he does need some work. But I think he has the potential to be a Flozell Adams or Bryant McKinnie. He can turn into one of the leagues best OT and make a few Pro Bowls. He's my favorite OT in this draft and I think he has much better upside and a much better return on our investment. I'd be ok with either of those guys in the 3-8 range tho and we really can't go wrong either way, but I'm not sure I like either of them enough to take them number 1 overall.

With all that said, I wouldn't take Jake Long at number 1 overall, but it's definately not the worst pick we could make.

Finsfan79
03-28-2008, 08:28 AM
joey I guess we can respectfully agree to disagree :)

Personally most folks on here know by now that I have wanted for a few years now to see that oline built up. I feel it is one of the fundamental flaws of the team that it has been continously dressed over.


Now I will concede even though this opinion piece doesnt really talk much of it that traditionally parcells takes defense first.

If you look at his draft history he will rarely take the offensive player in the first round, he would rather take the defense.



Imo Chris long is another Matt Roth a nice player for the 4-3 system but in the 3-4 system he would be out of place. He will need to fit himself to the system (aka dropping the weight which helps him get the leverage) and then you need to "project him" to that position as he is not a 3-4 standup and coverage able OLB in college.


If we are assuming we dont trade down the pick has 2 players it must be Gholston or Jake Long.

in my eyes Jake Long is the pick that is smarter in this instance. I feel he is a legit number 1 left tackle that could be an anchor for the next decade for us. Our next richmond Webb

Finsfan79
03-28-2008, 08:28 AM
it should be noted as well that every superbowl this franchise has been to has had a HoF Olineman upon the line.

It is not merely a coincidence

thebow305
03-28-2008, 10:22 AM
it should be noted as well that every superbowl this franchise has been to has had a HoF Olineman upon the line.

It is not merely a coincidence

Yes, but I sincerely doubt Jake Long will be a HOFer. That is the point here, most think he is NOT worth the top pick in this draft, solely because he will never be an ELITE NFL Left Tacle. This guy is no Richmond Webb, and to even put him in the same company is disgraceful. He will not be our pick, just forget about it, Parcells is smarter than that.

Finsfan79
03-28-2008, 11:58 AM
I think I will let the scouts and GM's for the fins decide whom is best for there. There are plenty out there that feel he is worth the top pick and is an elite talent.

Joeyjr09
03-28-2008, 04:22 PM
Here's a fun fact. Since 1970, there has only been 1 OL drafted number 1 overall (Orlando Pace). There has only been 2 OL drafted number overall in the modern era starting in 1936.

On the flip side, there have been 6 DEs drafted number 1 overall since 1970.

Quaterback is far and away the most often drafted position at number 1 overall but DE is tied with RB for the 2nd most drafted position.

The only position that gets drafted less at number 1 overall then OL is DB.

It's pretty clear that history shows OT does not hold good value at the top of drafts. Pass rushers on the other hand have more value then just about every other spot on the field.

Given Parcells history of taking OL later in drafts, his history of taking Defense early and often and the history of the NFL for valuing Pass Rushers over OTs, I think it's pretty safe to say that Jake Long will not be the number 1 pick.

Not to mention, Jake Long is not the best player in this draft.

thebow305
03-28-2008, 06:09 PM
Here's a fun fact. Since 1970, there has only been 1 OL drafted number 1 overall (Orlando Pace). There has only been 2 OL drafted number overall in the modern era starting in 1936.

On the flip side, there have been 6 DEs drafted number 1 overall since 1970.

Quaterback is far and away the most often drafted position at number 1 overall but DE is tied with RB for the 2nd most drafted position.

The only position that gets drafted less at number 1 overall then OL is DB.

It's pretty clear that history shows OT does not hold good value at the top of drafts. Pass rushers on the other hand have more value then just about every other spot on the field.

Given Parcells history of taking OL later in drafts, his history of taking Defense early and often and the history of the NFL for valuing Pass Rushers over OTs, I think it's pretty safe to say that Jake Long will not be the number 1 pick.

Not to mention, Jake Long is not the best player in this draft.

Thank you. Finally... some good info there for all these Jake Long lovers. He wont be the pick, get over it already guys!

BigBlueCrew56
03-29-2008, 09:59 AM
Thank you. Finally... some good info there for all these Jake Long lovers. He wont be the pick, get over it already guys!


The one thing I cant get over is the fact that we are going to miss out on the top 5-6 offensive lineman in this draft if we dont secure one with our 1st pick. That is what I cant over. The offensive line is in total shambles but we are going to pick a guy at a position of strength while we allow our QB's to continue to get trounced leaving our defense to fend half the field. That was the problem last year. Now if we control the clock and keep the defense off the field then I guarantee you that the defense returns back to the 2006 form when they where top 5-10. Let alone with projections of us taking a QB with the top 2nd round pick that would leave us with the 8th or 9th rated offensive line prospect left on the board. Why should we gamble again on taking a late round pick on the offensive line when we can get the best one in this draft. Not only the best one but a top 5 rated player in this draft not only just the offensive line. If our offensive line was secure I wouldnt think twice about taking Chris Long or Vernon but we need to protect our QB. Jake Long is a power running offensive lineman and with Ronnie and Ricky that is what we need to start concentrating on to protect our QB and keep the defense well rested.

LT Jake Long LG?????? C Samson Satele RG Justin Smiley RT Vernon Carey

I'am telling you we will pound the ball down peoples throat with that offensive line much like old school Giants football when Jumbo Elliott was leading the way. Jake Long is hands down the best run blocker in this draft and any deficiencies he has with pass blocking will be worked on by Tony Sparano. As a rookie head coach let his 1st pick be a position he is familiar with.

Joeyjr09
03-29-2008, 12:46 PM
The one thing I cant get over is the fact that we are going to miss out on the top 5-6 offensive lineman in this draft if we dont secure one with our 1st pick. That is what I cant over. The offensive line is in total shambles but we are going to pick a guy at a position of strength while we allow our QB's to continue to get trounced leaving our defense to fend half the field. That was the problem last year. Now if we control the clock and keep the defense off the field then I guarantee you that the defense returns back to the 2006 form when they where top 5-10. Let alone with projections of us taking a QB with the top 2nd round pick that would leave us with the 8th or 9th rated offensive line prospect left on the board. Why should we gamble again on taking a late round pick on the offensive line when we can get the best one in this draft. Not only the best one but a top 5 rated player in this draft not only just the offensive line. If our offensive line was secure I wouldnt think twice about taking Chris Long or Vernon but we need to protect our QB. Jake Long is a power running offensive lineman and with Ronnie and Ricky that is what we need to start concentrating on to protect our QB and keep the defense well rested.

LT Jake Long LG?????? C Samson Satele RG Justin Smiley RT Vernon Carey

I'am telling you we will pound the ball down peoples throat with that offensive line much like old school Giants football when Jumbo Elliott was leading the way. Jake Long is hands down the best run blocker in this draft and any deficiencies he has with pass blocking will be worked on by Tony Sparano. As a rookie head coach let his 1st pick be a position he is familiar with.

Dude, I've seen you write that same expect post with that same exact OL combo like 3403824092380 times. Care to contribute something new?

I mean serious dude, your beating a dead horse.

You keep saying that if we miss Jake Long we will only get the 6-7 best OL in the draft. But this draft is very deep in OL talent. Getting the 6-7 OL in this draft is like like the 3rd OL in any other draft. The value of OL in round 2 is out of this damn planet this season.

You keep looking at the number and position of the player we are drafting instead of the quality of player. Jake Long is not the quality of player that you need to take at number 1 overall but guys like guys like Gosder Cherilus, Carl Nicks, Chilo Rachal, Sam Baker are all better prospects then Joe Staley who was a 1st rounder last season.

That's the problem with Jake Long. If you take him you are getting absolutely horrible value for your pick. He is not the best talent in the draft, hell he might not even be a top 3 talent in the draft. OT do not hold good value in the top of drafts, and we would be getting huge value taking an OT in round 2.

You wanna draft Jake Long just to say we got our need filled with the best guy. That never works. Reaching for players early in drafts are to fill needs will kill your team. You have to sit back and make your own evaluation and draft who you think is the best overall player in the draft.

Houston was deseprate for the RB a couple years ago, but he graded out to them as a worse prospect then Mario Williams. Look how that panned out. You need to take the best talent at number 1 overall, plain and simple. You with this draft your looking at Chris Long, Darren McFadden and Vernon Gholston. Jake Long is number 4 on that list.

Please, please, stop repeating the same tied info about Jake Long over and over and over again. It's annoying already. We get it, you want a good OL. So do we all, there are better ways to fix our OL then to reach with the number 1 overall pick.

You are completely closeminded, you think Jake Long is the only way we will have a good OL next year and getting one track minded like that is bad for our team. You have to look at other options.

BTW, you called our pass rush a position of strength? Dud you watch a single game last season?

BigBlueCrew56
03-29-2008, 01:36 PM
Beating a dead horse????? Joey dont you think that your Chris Long and Vernon Gholston arguments are beating a dead horse. I voice my opinion on what I beleive but yet you attack my argument every chance you get. I put up a very good argument that many experts care to share my same opinion including the person you get to post on his forums. Then you care to mention quality of player. Well go ahead and ask Scott or some of the many of experts and scouts who do this for a living and most of them if not all will tell you that Jake Long is a top 5 rated player in this draft and is at the same level with the Chris Long's and Vernon Gholston's of the world.

Our very own Scott Wright's Ranking board

Player Class Position School
1. Darren McFadden JR RB Arkansas
Elite talent who is destined to become one of the league's top rushers.
2. Jake Long SR OT Michigan
A left tackle who is not quite Joe Thomas but is better than Levi Brown.
3. Chris Long SR DE Virginia
Technician who plays the run and pass and has an unparalleled motor.
4. Glenn Dorsey SR DT L.S.U.
Simply one of the best defensive tackle prospects we've seen in years.
5. Vernon Gholston JR DE Ohio St.
Versatile pass rusher extraordinaire and also a rare physical specimen

Scouts Inc.'s Top 32Player Pos. School Grade
1. Darren McFadden RB Arkansas 99
2. Chris Long DE Virginia 98
3. Jake Long OT Michigan 98
4. Glenn Dorsey DT LSU 98
5. Matt Ryan QB Boston Coll. 98
6. Sedrick Ellis DT USC 97
7. Vernon Gholston DE Ohio State 96

I like this board even better by the good folks at scout's inc who have Long rated at 98. So taking him over C.Long who is at 98 or Gholston who is a 96 projects for a poor value once again as you stated.

Top 50 Pro Prospects for the NFL Draft ’08

* underclassmen - March Post NFL Combine ‘08


1. Matt Ryan - QB - 6’4” 220 lbs. - Boston College
Savvy pocket QB retains his top ranking in this talented class since last fall. He looks to impress at his pro day throwing the ball to be the #1 overall prospect this April.

2. Chris Long - DE - 6’5” 285 lbs. - Virginia
Athletic senior ‘tweener defender had an impact workout at the NFL Combine and is the safest selection in this draft class.

3. Glenn Dorsey - DT - 6’2” 300 lbs. - LSU
Explosive senior tackle was a dominant force over the ’07 season but must answer leg injury questions at his pro day later this month.

4. Jake Long - OT - 6’7” 320 lbs. - Michigan
Physical senior tackle is one of the most developed prospects in this class and completed a fine NFL Combine workout to guarantee a top ten selection.

5. * Vernon Gholston - DE - 6’4” 260 lbs. - Ohio St
Fast junior ‘tweener defender had a very strong NFL Combine workout plus the big play ability to a pro difference maker as a sack artist.

(So Gholston at #1 makes for a better value being #5?????)

If I where to continue to beat a dead horse then I would post about 10-15 more rankings to show that Jake Long's value is even with Chris Long or Vernon Gholston's. But i will pass.


If Jake Long is such a poor value for us then why his he rated the #2 player just behind McFadden. According to your argument maybe we need to go with Darren McFadden at #1 since he is quote on quote the best player avalible. You get very sensitive when peoples opinions differ then your owns, but the truth is there is a 50-50 split between Jake Long and Chris Long and we both will put up good arguments. What does it matter that I post the same stuff about Jake Long when you post the same crap about Vernon Gholston and Chris Long in all your post. I mention pass rush being a strengh because we still have Jason Taylor and Joey Porter on the roster. With them going back to a true 3-4 I think it will benefit there quality of play. Just a year before last year the defense was top 5. Last year was an abberration due to the defense having to defend from there own 40 half the time because the offense either turned the ball over or couldnt move the ball at all. Let alone Dom Capers not really being interested playing second fiddle to Cam Cameron having to run a 4-3 when he has coached the 3-4 for a good portion of his career. The Dophins under Saban ran the 3-4 with Jason Taylor being the elephant linebacker and he did nothing but win MVP. How short memories are........


One more last parting shot.... I dont think there has ever been a team that has drafted a 3-4 OLB with the #1 overall pick. I mean drafting a 3-4 OLB and paying him 35 million plus when you could grab a guy who can do the same job for about 20-25 million in most years during F/A. Trying to get a franchise LT on the market on the other hand is one of the hardest spots to fill via free agency much like finding a quality quaterback. You also mentioned me being close minded but why couldnt we find other options later at 3-4 OLB????? What if a guy like Quentin Groves where to slip whom I think is the most natural 3-4 OLB In this draft. Maybe we can take a gamble on a natural fit DE tweener that wont fit in most 4-3 defenses but would be perfect in ours. A team like the Pittsburgh Steelers has had there 3-4 defense built through late round undersized 3-4 tweener selections for like the last 20 years.

thebow305
03-29-2008, 02:30 PM
Dude, I've seen you write that same expect post with that same exact OL combo like 3403824092380 times. Care to contribute something new?

I mean serious dude, your beating a dead horse.

You keep saying that if we miss Jake Long we will only get the 6-7 best OL in the draft. But this draft is very deep in OL talent. Getting the 6-7 OL in this draft is like like the 3rd OL in any other draft. The value of OL in round 2 is out of this damn planet this season.

You keep looking at the number and position of the player we are drafting instead of the quality of player. Jake Long is not the quality of player that you need to take at number 1 overall but guys like guys like Gosder Cherilus, Carl Nicks, Chilo Rachal, Sam Baker are all better prospects then Joe Staley who was a 1st rounder last season.

That's the problem with Jake Long. If you take him you are getting absolutely horrible value for your pick. He is not the best talent in the draft, hell he might not even be a top 3 talent in the draft. OT do not hold good value in the top of drafts, and we would be getting huge value taking an OT in round 2.

You wanna draft Jake Long just to say we got our need filled with the best guy. That never works. Reaching for players early in drafts are to fill needs will kill your team. You have to sit back and make your own evaluation and draft who you think is the best overall player in the draft.

Houston was deseprate for the RB a couple years ago, but he graded out to them as a worse prospect then Mario Williams. Look how that panned out. You need to take the best talent at number 1 overall, plain and simple. You with this draft your looking at Chris Long, Darren McFadden and Vernon Gholston. Jake Long is number 4 on that list.

Please, please, stop repeating the same tied info about Jake Long over and over and over again. It's annoying already. We get it, you want a good OL. So do we all, there are better ways to fix our OL then to reach with the number 1 overall pick.

You are completely closeminded, you think Jake Long is the only way we will have a good OL next year and getting one track minded like that is bad for our team. You have to look at other options.

BTW, you called our pass rush a position of strength? Dud you watch a single game last season?

I agree with just about everything you said, except the Houston argument. They did the complete opposite of what you said, but it did work out for them. They drafted for NEED over BPA. They really didn't need a RB then because Domanick Davis was coming off a great rookie campaign. What they did have was one of the worse pass-rushing units and D-lines as a whole in the league. And going against Peyton Manning twice a year, they NEEDED the pressure. That's why they took Mario Williams. He didn't grade out higher than Bush. Bush was clearly the BPA in '06. I remember hearing all the Gale Sayers and Barry Sanders comparisons before the draft that year even. Bush would have certainly upgraded what they had an RB, but he was considered a luxury pick for Houston if they took him, which they couldn't afford to do, take a luxury pick when they had bigger needs, primarily on the Dline, and it's why Mario ended up being the pick.

Joeyjr09
03-29-2008, 02:41 PM
Beating a dead horse????? Joey dont you think that your Chris Long and Vernon Gholston arguments are beating a dead horse. I voice my opinion on what I beleive but yet you attack my argument every chance you get. I put up a very good argument that many experts care to share my same opinion including the person you get to post on his forums. Then you care to mention quality of player. Well go ahead and ask Scott or some of the many of experts and scouts who do this for a living and most of them if not all will tell you that Jake Long is a top 5 rated player in this draft and is at the same level with the Chris Long's and Vernon Gholston's of the world.

Our very own Scott Wright's Ranking board

Player Class Position School
1. Darren McFadden JR RB Arkansas
Elite talent who is destined to become one of the league's top rushers.
2. Jake Long SR OT Michigan
A left tackle who is not quite Joe Thomas but is better than Levi Brown.
3. Chris Long SR DE Virginia
Technician who plays the run and pass and has an unparalleled motor.
4. Glenn Dorsey SR DT L.S.U.
Simply one of the best defensive tackle prospects we've seen in years.
5. Vernon Gholston JR DE Ohio St.
Versatile pass rusher extraordinaire and also a rare physical specimen

Scouts Inc.'s Top 32Player Pos. School Grade
1. Darren McFadden RB Arkansas 99
2. Chris Long DE Virginia 98
3. Jake Long OT Michigan 98
4. Glenn Dorsey DT LSU 98
5. Matt Ryan QB Boston Coll. 98
6. Sedrick Ellis DT USC 97
7. Vernon Gholston DE Ohio State 96

I like this board even better by the good folks at scout's inc who have Long rated at 98. So taking him over C.Long who is at 98 or Gholston who is a 96 projects for a poor value once again as you stated.

Top 50 Pro Prospects for the NFL Draft ’08

* underclassmen - March Post NFL Combine ‘08


1. Matt Ryan - QB - 6’4” 220 lbs. - Boston College
Savvy pocket QB retains his top ranking in this talented class since last fall. He looks to impress at his pro day throwing the ball to be the #1 overall prospect this April.

2. Chris Long - DE - 6’5” 285 lbs. - Virginia
Athletic senior ‘tweener defender had an impact workout at the NFL Combine and is the safest selection in this draft class.

3. Glenn Dorsey - DT - 6’2” 300 lbs. - LSU
Explosive senior tackle was a dominant force over the ’07 season but must answer leg injury questions at his pro day later this month.

4. Jake Long - OT - 6’7” 320 lbs. - Michigan
Physical senior tackle is one of the most developed prospects in this class and completed a fine NFL Combine workout to guarantee a top ten selection.

5. * Vernon Gholston - DE - 6’4” 260 lbs. - Ohio St
Fast junior ‘tweener defender had a very strong NFL Combine workout plus the big play ability to a pro difference maker as a sack artist.

(So Gholston at #1 makes for a better value being #5?????)

If I where to continue to beat a dead horse then I would post about 10-15 more rankings to show that Jake Long's value is even with Chris Long or Vernon Gholston's. But i will pass.


If Jake Long is such a poor value for us then why his he rated the #2 player just behind McFadden. According to your argument maybe we need to go with Darren McFadden at #1 since he is quote on quote the best player avalible. You get very sensitive when peoples opinions differ then your owns, but the truth is there is a 50-50 split between Jake Long and Chris Long and we both will put up good arguments. What does it matter that I post the same stuff about Jake Long when you post the same crap about Vernon Gholston and Chris Long in all your post. I mention pass rush being a strengh because we still have Jason Taylor and Joey Porter on the roster. With them going back to a true 3-4 I think it will benefit there quality of play. Just a year before last year the defense was top 5. Last year was an abberration due to the defense having to defend from there own 40 half the time because the offense either turned the ball over or couldnt move the ball at all. Let alone Dom Capers not really being interested playing second fiddle to Cam Cameron having to run a 4-3 when he has coached the 3-4 for a good portion of his career. The Dophins under Saban ran the 3-4 with Jason Taylor being the elephant linebacker and he did nothing but win MVP. How short memories are........

Are you serious? I beat a dead horse for responding to you? Ok bro, when there are threads made specifically calling you out as a Jake Long nuthugger, obviously you do way too much talking about the same guy over and over and over again. I went back and read some of the older threads. You manage to bring Jake Long into every conversation.

There's even a thead I made about Chad Henne and how we could maybe trade down lower to get him and yet somehow you still managed to inject Jake Long into that thread when it had nothing to do with him. You bring up Jake Long and talk about him just because Chad Henne is from Michigan. You bring up Jake Long every chance you get.

You say I'm being sensitive because I don't agree with the Jake Long pick. I'm not being sensitive, I'm being annoyed. For Christ's sake stop with the Jake Long parade you do on here. Everyone knows the pluses and minuses of having a Jake Long at LT, you don't have to remind us with every post you make.

As for your parting shot. Think things thru before you post them. You say it's stupid to draft a 3-4 OLB and pay him 35 million when you can get one in FA for 20 million. Did you live under a rock for the entire FA period. Calvin "one year wonder" Pace just got a 32 million contract. Elite pass rushing 3-4 OLB will get much, much more then 35 million.

Pass rushing is much harder to find on the FA market then OL is.

And btw...your contradicting yourself. You say franchise LTs are the hardest to find and they are worth more the 3-4 OLBs but Scott himself (who you thru out there as having Jake ranked ahead of Chris and Vernon) even says "He might not be able to play left tackle at the next level"

So while you can bring up the rankings all you want. I'll bring up the fact that very few experts think he'll be a good LT in the NFL.

You keep campaigning for him to be the pick to be a franchise LT, but your the only one that believes he can be a franchise LT. Everyone else thinks he'll be a RT at the next level. On the other hand, theres not many questions about Gholston's pass rush ability or Long's football smarts and undying motor.

BigBlueCrew56
03-29-2008, 02:54 PM
Are you serious? I beat a dead horse for responding to you? Ok bro, when there are threads made specifically calling you out as a Jake Long nuthugger, obviously you do way too much talking about the same guy over and over and over again. I went back and read some of the older threads. You manage to bring Jake Long into every conversation.

There's even a thead I made about Chad Henne and how we could maybe trade down lower to get him and yet somehow you still managed to inject Jake Long into that thread when it had nothing to do with him. You bring up Jake Long and talk about him just because Chad Henne is from Michigan. You bring up Jake Long every chance you get.

You say I'm being sensitive because I don't agree with the Jake Long pick. I'm not being sensitive, I'm being annoyed. For Christ's sake stop with the Jake Long parade you do on here. Everyone knows the pluses and minuses of having a Jake Long at LT, you don't have to remind us with every post you make.

As for your parting shot. Think things thru before you post them. You say it's stupid to draft a 3-4 OLB and pay him 35 million when you can get one in FA for 20 million. Did you live under a rock for the entire FA period. Calvin "one year wonder" Pace just got a 32 million contract. Elite pass rushing 3-4 OLB will get much, much more then 35 million.

Pass rushing is much harder to find on the FA market then OL is.

And btw...your contradicting yourself. You say franchise LTs are the hardest to find and they are worth more the 3-4 OLBs but Scott himself (who you thru out there as having Jake ranked ahead of Chris and Vernon) even says "He might not be able to play left tackle at the next level"

So while you can bring up the rankings all you want. I'll bring up the fact that very few experts think he'll be a good LT in the NFL.

You keep campaigning for him to be the pick to be a franchise LT, but your the only one that believes he can be a franchise LT. Everyone else thinks he'll be a RT at the next level. On the other hand, theres not many questions about Gholston's pass rush ability or Long's football smarts and undying motor.


Are you serious Joey about Calvin Pace's contract. I am talking about guaranteed money. Calvin Pace only got 22 million in guarantees. The top pick gets 30 plus million in guarantees. Stop being such a internet tough guy trying to put me down and saying you are getting annoyed with my post. If you dont like what I have to say and it annoys you so much then stop reading it and continue to agree with everyone that post the same things you like. I have never once attacked anyone who has been pushing for Chris Long or Vernon Gholston but you find it necessary to put my post down whenever I make my arguments. I am not trying to convince you either way but maybe possibly looking for someone who might agree with my point of view wether good or bad and dicuss in a professional manner. I know that you know your Sh*t Joey but to attack me personally for just posting an opinion on a blog just seems a bit out of hand.

"Pace reached an agreement with the New York Jets on a six-year, $42 million contract on Monday. The deal, negotiated by agent Pat Dye Jr. and his associates at Atlanta-based ProFiles Sports Management, includes a signing bonus of $20 million and $22 million in total guarantees."

The contract, which makes Pace one of the highest paid linebackers in NFL history, will pay out $26 million in its first three years with 22 million being guaranteed.

(That 22 million guaranteed made him the highest 3-4 OLB in history)

Are the Dolphins going to set the new record by making Chris Long or Vernon Gholston at #1 the new highest paid 3-4 OLB In history even before he takes a snap. I guess only time will tell. I guess in a nut shell they will be way overpaying anyone at #1 but for me I want it to be the top rated offensive lineman.

Also ask yourself this question..... Why didnt Parcells want to pay Calvin Pace who has played more downs in the NFL then any of the rookies coming into this draft at his 22 million dollar guaranteed price tag???? Wouldnt that have been a bargain compared to paying one at 30+ million guaranteed and not even know how he is going to do in your 3-4 system. Pace even though he only played great for one year showed what he could do once he was changed to a more natural 3-4 spot for him.

Joeyjr09
03-29-2008, 03:17 PM
Are you serious Joey about Calvin Pace's contract. I am talking about guaranteed money. Calvin Pace only got 22 million in guarantees. The top pick gets 30 plus million in guarantees. Stop being such a internet tough guy trying to put me down and saying you are getting annoyed with my post. If you dont like what I have to say and it annoys you so much then stop reading it and continue to agree with everyone that post the same things you like. I have never once attacked anyone who has been pushing for Chris Long or Vernon Gholston but you find it necessary to put my post down whenever I make my arguments. I am not trying to convince you either way but maybe possibly looking for someone who might agree with my point of view wether good or bad and dicuss in a professional manner. I know that you know your Sh*t Joey but to attack me personally for just posting an opinion on a blog just seems a bit out of hand.

"Pace reached an agreement with the New York Jets on a six-year, $42 million contract on Monday. The deal, negotiated by agent Pat Dye Jr. and his associates at Atlanta-based ProFiles Sports Management, includes a signing bonus of $20 million and $22 million in total guarantees."

The contract, which makes Pace one of the highest paid linebackers in NFL history, will pay out $26 million in its first three years with 22 million being guaranteed.

(That 22 million guaranteed made him the highest 3-4 OLB in history)

Are the Dolphins going to set the new record by making Chris Long or Vernon Gholston at #1 the new highest paid 3-4 OLB In history even before he takes a snap. I guess only time will tell.


Ok man if you think I'm attacking you personally then your reading way too much into this. Not once have a made a comment about you as a person, and quite frankly I don't care to because I don't even know you.

Your stuff just gets tired bro, you know there are only 4-5 people that post on the Dolphins and yet you say you post the same stuff looking for someone to discuss it with. Please bro I know BS when I hear it. The same 4-5 people on here and been saying the same stuff into response to you Jake Long posts for weeks, so don't get upset when you post the same stuff to the same people and get the same results. If you wanted to discuss it more take it somewhere else where you wouldn't be beating a dead horse with the same people that have discussed this at length with you multiple times.


As for what you say about Pace's contract. Pace is above average as an NFL 3-4 OLB at best and he still got 6 years, 42 million with 22 million guaranteed.

Flozell Adams on the other hand is one of the 5 best LT in the NFL and he got 6 years, 43 million with 15 million guaranteed.

Walter Jones who is far and away the best OL in the NFL got a 7 year, 50 million with 20 million guaranteed.

The number 1 pick is gonna have a contract that breaks records no matter what position he plays, that the nature of the draft and they way the contracts work. Hence the reason no one wants to pick at number 1 overall.

Fact is that Calvin Pace as an average pass rushing LB still has a better contract then some of the best LTs in the NFL. Wanna know why? Because pass rushers hold more value then LTs.

BigBlueCrew56
03-29-2008, 03:30 PM
Ok man if you think I'm attacking you personally then your reading way too much into this. Not once have a made a comment about you as a person, and quite frankly I don't care to because I don't even know you.

Your stuff just gets tired bro, you know there are only 4-5 people that post on the Dolphins and yet you say you post the same stuff looking for someone to discuss it with. Please bro I know BS when I hear it. The same 4-5 people on here and been saying the same stuff into response to you Jake Long posts for weeks, so don't get upset when you post the same stuff to the same people and get the same results. If you wanted to discuss it more take it somewhere else where you wouldn't be beating a dead horse with the same people that have discussed this at length with you multiple times.


As for what you say about Pace's contract. Pace is above average as an NFL 3-4 OLB at best and he still got 6 years, 42 million with 22 million guaranteed.

Flozell Adams on the other hand is one of the 5 best LT in the NFL and he got 6 years, 43 million with 15 million guaranteed.

Walter Jones who is far and away the best OL in the NFL got a 7 year, 50 million with 20 million guaranteed.

The number 1 pick is gonna have a contract that breaks records no matter what position he plays, that the nature of the draft and they way the contracts work. Hence the reason no one wants to pick at number 1 overall.

Fact is that Calvin Pace as an average pass rushing LB still has a better contract then some of the best LTs in the NFL. Wanna know why? Because pass rushers hold more value then LTs.


Okay Joey I am tired of typing already. I guess we both will agree to disagree at this point of time. Two people....You and Bow have the same responses for me. Maybe I am seeing if I get lucky and find someone else who might be part of the Jake Long for #1 pick bandwagon such as myself and discuss why it benefits the team more then taking an OLB. Much like you like to discuss Vernon Gholston or Chris Long.


Listen bro I have never once said I was ever tired of hearing your responses about Chris Long or Vernon Gholston. Or ever once have gone as far as saying I was annoyed by your arguments in regards to them. Or better yet you calling me a Jake Long "NutHugger" when I could easily flip the script and tell you to get off the Chris Long-Vernon Gholston "Pole smokin" bandwagon. I know you have your opinion and I have mine. We both hold strong convictions on our opinions and I think it should be left at that.

Joeyjr09
03-29-2008, 04:04 PM
I've had bow blocked for weeks and haven't read or responded to any of his posts so I couldn't even tell you what he said or if he agrees with me. All I can say if that I blocked him because we never agreed and it usually led to him insulting me.

The difference between me wanting Chris Long and you wanting Jake Long is that I only talk about Chris in response to youe numerous topics about Jake. I spend just as much time talking about Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Anthony Collins and others as I do talking about Chris or Vernon. The only thing that sways that is your 1,000's of posts about Jake Long which undoubtly lead to discussions about the number 1 pick which brings up Chris and Vernon.

I want one of the OLBs to be the pick and I'm even open to the idea of Jake Long, but rarely do I bring them up unless it's in a response to your posts about Jake Long (which happens to be very often). As a matter of fact, I think the only time I've ever brought up one of the OLB without you mentioning Jake Long was when I found that one article about Gholston a couple weeks back.

But like you said, let bygones be bygones. I say we keep the CL, JL and VG discussions to this thread only so we can discuss other topics in other threads instead of this talk taking over the board as it has. sound good?

Paranoidmoonduck
03-29-2008, 04:06 PM
On the subject of the original article, is his reasoning really that since the Dolphins didn't attend a pro day in a flock where Jake Long had minimal participation, and therefore Miami will absolutely not pick him?

BigBlueCrew56
03-29-2008, 04:08 PM
I've had bow blocked for weeks and haven't read or responded to any of his posts so I couldn't even tell you what he said or if he agrees with me. All I can say if that I blocked him because we never agreed and it usually led to him insulting me.

The difference between me wanting Chris Long and you wanting Jake Long is that I only talk about Chris in response to youe numerous topics about Jake. I spend just as much time talking about Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Anthony Collins and others as I do talking about Chris or Vernon. The only thing that sways that is your 1,000's of posts about Jake Long which undoubtly lead to discussions about the number 1 pick which brings up Chris and Vernon.

I want one of the OLBs to be the pick and I'm even open to the idea of Jake Long, but rarely do I bring them up unless it's in a response to your posts about Jake Long (which happens to be very often). As a matter of fact, I think the only time I've ever brought up one of the OLB without you mentioning Jake Long was when I found that one article about Gholston a couple weeks back.

But like you said, let bygones be bygones. I say we keep the CL, JL and VG discussions to this thread only so we can discuss other topics in other threads instead of this talk taking over the board as it has. sound good?


I'am cool with that Joey. Alright bro I gotta run. There' still a ton of Saturday left and I gotta get my drink on. Peace

619
03-29-2008, 04:10 PM
On the subject of the original article, is his reasoning really that since the Dolphins didn't attend a pro day in a flock where Jake Long had minimal participation, and therefore Miami will absolutely not pick him?

Has the writer ever heard of a smokescreen ..

Joeyjr09
03-29-2008, 04:10 PM
On the subject of the original article, is his reasoning really that since the Dolphins didn't attend a pro day in a flock where Jake Long had minimal participation, and therefore Miami will absolutely not pick him?

I think the orginial article was one written by Armando Salguero a while ago. Don't listen to him. Salguero basically think he runs the Dolphins and makes up his own garbage about what the team is doing wrong and who they need to take. He has no insites, he never ever reports facts. Basically he thinks he knows more then anyone else on the Dolphins and writes his own opinions as fact. The guy is by far my lease favorite Dolphins writer. He's a tool.

Paranoidmoonduck
03-29-2008, 04:18 PM
I just wanted to check, because that seemed like highly questionable reasoning.

Joeyjr09
03-29-2008, 04:34 PM
I'am cool with that Joey. Alright bro I gotta run. There' still a ton of Saturday left and I gotta get my drink on. Peace

Have fun man, I'm getting ready to head out myself.

thebow305
03-30-2008, 12:18 AM
I've had bow blocked for weeks and haven't read or responded to any of his posts so I couldn't even tell you what he said or if he agrees with me. All I can say if that I blocked him because we never agreed and it usually led to him insulting me.

The difference between me wanting Chris Long and you wanting Jake Long is that I only talk about Chris in response to youe numerous topics about Jake. I spend just as much time talking about Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Anthony Collins and others as I do talking about Chris or Vernon. The only thing that sways that is your 1,000's of posts about Jake Long which undoubtly lead to discussions about the number 1 pick which brings up Chris and Vernon.

I want one of the OLBs to be the pick and I'm even open to the idea of Jake Long, but rarely do I bring them up unless it's in a response to your posts about Jake Long (which happens to be very often). As a matter of fact, I think the only time I've ever brought up one of the OLB without you mentioning Jake Long was when I found that one article about Gholston a couple weeks back.

But like you said, let bygones be bygones. I say we keep the CL, JL and VG discussions to this thread only so we can discuss other topics in other threads instead of this talk taking over the board as it has. sound good?

How would you have blocked me when I dont even send you any messages, ever. That's just being ridiculous. Most of my responses to what you have said recently have been support from me, but still you choose to ignore them and don't respond back. ok....

Quagmire
03-30-2008, 11:26 AM
I've had bow blocked for weeks and haven't read or responded to any of his posts so I couldn't even tell you what he said or if he agrees with me. All I can say if that I blocked him because we never agreed and it usually led to him insulting me.

The difference between me wanting Chris Long and you wanting Jake Long is that I only talk about Chris in response to youe numerous topics about Jake. I spend just as much time talking about Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Anthony Collins and others as I do talking about Chris or Vernon. The only thing that sways that is your 1,000's of posts about Jake Long which undoubtly lead to discussions about the number 1 pick which brings up Chris and Vernon.

I want one of the OLBs to be the pick and I'm even open to the idea of Jake Long, but rarely do I bring them up unless it's in a response to your posts about Jake Long (which happens to be very often). As a matter of fact, I think the only time I've ever brought up one of the OLB without you mentioning Jake Long was when I found that one article about Gholston a couple weeks back.

But like you said, let bygones be bygones. I say we keep the CL, JL and VG discussions to this thread only so we can discuss other topics in other threads instead of this talk taking over the board as it has. sound good?

Joe & Blue,

Just jumping in here. Been away for about a week (Vegas) and this is the first chance I have had to check back.

I think that the pick is going to come down to 4 players. The Long's, Gholston & Ryan. (I still think he's in the picture) If I was ranking them (how I feel, not what I think will happen), I would go like this:

Gholston
J. Long
Ryan
C. Long

I am just not as big a believer in Chris Long as some others. As a matter of fact, I would take McFadden over him as well. I just think that the other guys can make impacts at their position(s). Gholston has the entire skill package, J. Long has at worst, the ability to be an above-average LT or an elite RT, Ryan has some big-time intangibles for the QB position (though I would not want a QB that high) and McFadden obviously is an elite RB talent. I see C. Long as a guy who would be a top 10-15 guy most yrs and I could really see him being a journeyman type of player. If you told me we were moving down to #5 and then took C. Long, I would be more comfortable.

Lets just hope that whatever decision they make turns out to be the right one..........

Joeyjr09
03-30-2008, 12:06 PM
Ryan has some big-time intangibles for the QB position

What exactly does he have that is not possesed by Chad Henne or Brian Brohm? Just because his team had a good season last season and Henne and Brohm had down years, Ryan has more intangibles?

I hate the intangible arguement for QBs. Absolutely hate it. How many QBs have been picked based on intangibles and never worked out? Millions of them. Fact is, you can talk about intangibles all you want but until he actually coach the kid and spend alot of tme with him in the heat of battle on the field, you have no idea about his intangibles.

People try to quanitfy intangibles all the time and guess what, intangibles are something that cannot be quanitfied. It's just something you can't know based off some workouts and field type. You have to know the kid and been through the grind with him.

Matt Ryan threw 19 INT in like 13 games last season. He blew the game against Florida State when his team needed him to come through. Florida State was downright awful last year. What exactly is intangible about that? He crumbled under the pressure.

The only reason Matt Ryan is even talked about in the top 5 is because he is viewed as the best QB in the draft. Because based off talent alone, he's not even a top 15 pick.

I'm just kinda beside myself that you think Matt Ryan is a better talent then Chris Long. Chris Long is hands down better and it's not even close.

Also, how on earth does Gholston have the entire skill package? He is pretty much just a one dimensional pass rusher. His run D is shaky at best. He has the ability to turn into more and has upside that is thru the roof but if your talking about a DE/LB with the entire package, it's Chris Long. He's the more well rounded, more technically sound and more polished player. Vernon Gholston is more about potential and raw ability, Chris Long is about polish and having more to work with right now. At this point in time, Chris Long is the entire package, Vernon Gholston is going to be a work in progress.

Quagmire
03-30-2008, 12:39 PM
What exactly does he have that is not possesed by Chad Henne or Brian Brohm? Just because his team had a good season last season and Henne and Brohm had down years, Ryan has more intangibles?

I hate the intangible arguement for QBs. Absolutely hate it. How many QBs have been picked based on intangibles and never worked out? Millions of them. Fact is, you can talk about intangibles all you want but until he actually coach the kid and spend alot of tme with him in the heat of battle on the field, you have no idea about his intangibles.

People try to quanitfy intangibles all the time and guess what, intangibles are something that cannot be quanitfied. It's just something you can't know based off some workouts and field type. You have to know the kid and been through the grind with him.

Matt Ryan threw 19 INT in like 13 games last season. He blew the game against Florida State when his team needed him to come through. Florida State was downright awful last year. What exactly is intangible about that? He crumbled under the pressure.

The only reason Matt Ryan is even talked about in the top 5 is because he is viewed as the best QB in the draft. Because based off talent alone, he's not even a top 15 pick.

I'm just kinda beside myself that you think Matt Ryan is a better talent then Chris Long. Chris Long is hands down better and it's not even close.

Also, how on earth does Gholston have the entire skill package? He is pretty much just a one dimensional pass rusher. His run D is shaky at best. He has the ability to turn into more and has upside that is thru the roof but if your talking about a DE/LB with the entire package, it's Chris Long. He's the more well rounded, more technically sound and more polished player. Vernon Gholston is more about potential and raw ability, Chris Long is about polish and having more to work with right now. At this point in time, Chris Long is the entire package, Vernon Gholston is going to be a work in progress.

Joe,

Ryan did throw a lot of INTS, but he also was playing on a team that he had to carry. He had over 650 attempts last yr in a pro-style offense, so when you look at the INT number, it is not as bad as it looks.

As for pressure, did you watch the VA Tech game? He won that game single handedly.....

I happen to be someone who feels that Henne may be a better pro than Ryan. In fact, I have noted that on this board more than a few times... But, I think Ryan has a chance to be a very good QB in this league. I would not put Brohm in the same sentence as either of those guys. I think Brohm sucks. I would take a qb who has a chance to be very good to a guy who I think will be nothing more than an average player at LB/DE.

As for Gholston, he had more sacks than Long last year. He also beat up on the good competition (J Long) while Chris Long got his ass kicked when he played a first round OT (Otah). BTW, Long did not play any OLB at Virginia. None. He lined up at DE and occasionally at DT. So, projecting him to OLB is just as big a projection as Gholston.. Long is an effort guy who may well wind up being the pick, but I think they will regret it big time as they watch the guys that they pass up become far better players.

Joeyjr09
03-30-2008, 01:08 PM
Joe,

Ryan did throw a lot of INTS, but he also was playing on a team that he had to carry. He had over 650 attempts last yr in a pro-style offense, so when you look at the INT number, it is not as bad as it looks.

As for pressure, did you watch the VA Tech game? He won that game single handedly.....

I happen to be someone who feels that Henne may be a better pro than Ryan. In fact, I have noted that on this board more than a few times... But, I think Ryan has a chance to be a very good QB in this league. I would not put Brohm in the same sentence as either of those guys. I think Brohm sucks. I would take a qb who has a chance to be very good to a guy who I think will be nothing more than an average player at LB/DE.

As for Gholston, he had more sacks than Long last year. He also beat up on the good competition (J Long) while Chris Long got his ass kicked when he played a first round OT (Otah). BTW, Long did not play any OLB at Virginia. None. He lined up at DE and occasionally at DT. So, projecting him to OLB is just as big a projection as Gholston.. Long is an effort guy who may well wind up being the pick, but I think they will regret it big time as they watch the guys that they pass up become far better players.


Yes, I know Gholston had more sacks then Long last year. Did you miss the part where I said Gholston was one dimensional and was purely a pass rusher right now? Of course Long didn't player LB at Virginia. Come on man, please, don't belittle me like acting as if I didn't watch any college football last season.

As for Long being an effort guy. I have to completely disagree. All of Chris Long's combine numbers are either on par or just below Vernon Gholston's numbers, in fact his 20 yard shuttle was the best of all the DEs. He is also a bigger person then Gholston and bigger people are generally not as athletic. Chris Long might not have as high a ceiling as Gholston but to say he is purely an effort guy is completely false. He has proven that he has the athletic ability to turn into one of the elite 3-4 OLBs at the next level.

I'm just not seeing where your coming from. Everything about Matt Ryan screams average (He did not shine in any one area in any workout) but you bump him up for intangibles.

But then Chris Long who flat out looked great in everything, from position drills, to test scores, to speed and jumping get knocked down because he is an effort guy?

Don't confuse his desire to out work everybody and be the best he can be as a sign of him having nothing else to offer.

Just what are you basing your evals on? By all accounts Matt Ryan has been average in his aspects of his game and turned the ball over a ton. But because he won a gutsy game or 2 in college you think he's an elite prospect.

Yet Chris Long who arguably the best player in the country last season and has graded out as one of the most athletic players in the draft gets knocked down your board because he gives good effort?

Quagmire
03-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Yes, I know Gholston had more sacks then Long last year. Did you miss the part where I said Gholston was one dimensional and was purely a pass rusher right now? Of course Long didn't player LB at Virginia. Come on man, please, don't belittle me like acting as if I didn't watch any college football last season.

As for Long being an effort guy. I have to completely disagree. All of Chris Long's combine numbers are either on par or just below Vernon Gholston's numbers, in fact his 20 yard shuttle was the best of all the DEs. He is also a bigger person then Gholston and bigger people are generally not as athletic. Chris Long might not have as high a ceiling as Gholston but to say he is purely an effort guy is completely false. He has proven that he has the athletic ability to turn into one of the elite 3-4 OLBs at the next level.

I'm just not seeing where your coming from. Everything about Matt Ryan screams average (He did not shine in any one area in any workout) but you bump him up for intangibles.

But then Chris Long who flat out looked great in everything, from position drills, to test scores, to speed and jumping get knocked down because he is an effort guy?

Don't confuse his desire to out work everybody and be the best he can be as a sign of him having nothing else to offer.

Just what are you basing your evals on? By all accounts Matt Ryan has been average in his aspects of his game and turned the ball over a ton. But because he won a gutsy game or 2 in college you think he's an elite prospect.

Yet Chris Long who arguably the best player in the country last season and has graded out as one of the most athletic players in the draft gets knocked down your board because he gives good effort?

Joe,

No one is belittling anyone. You pointed out that Ryan lost the FSU game and I am telling you that he won the VA tech game. Thats all. You said that Long projects better than Gholston because he is one-dimensional. I am pointing out that Gholston and Long basically did the same thing which was rushing the passer and that Gholston did it better than Long. How does that make C. Long multi-faceted? Gholston also has better measurables than Long in pretty much every category. I am not downgrading Long because of effort. I am saying that what you see is what you get and that I don't think he has enough ability to improve at the pro level to become what a #1 overall should. Gholston does. I even think Ryan does because of the position he plays. I think Ryan surrounded with decent (not even great) talent will be a very good NFL qb. He played on what would have been a 5-6 win team and instead, they were much better because of him. I do tend to bump up QB's for intangibles, but only if I see ability as well. Otherwise, Ken Dorsey, Josh Heupel and Danny Wuerffel would be superstars today. I think Ryan has above-average tools that combined with the other stuff could make him a very good QB. Again, I would like to point that unless Tuna and crew are sold on him as a big time QB, I DO NOT want them picking Ryan. I am just saying that I think has more ability and upside for the #1 than C. Long. At the end of the day, if they take C. Long, I think that unless he is surrounded by game changers on D, he will be neutralized. I think Gholston, J. Long, McFadden and even Ryan can be guys who make the others around them better because of their ability.

Sniper
03-30-2008, 02:07 PM
You said that Long projects better than Gholston because he is one-dimensional. I am pointing out that Gholston and Long basically did the same thing which was rushing the passer and that Gholston did it better than Long.

Considering Long did his work in a 3-4 without half of the supporting cast that Gholston had, I don't know if your argument is valid.

Paranoidmoonduck
03-30-2008, 02:11 PM
Personally, I do think Long would make a better 3-4 outside linebacker than Gholston. He has smoother hips, better footwork when standing up, more experience playing in coverage, more experience playing in a 3-4, and has a better pass rush repertoire.

Then again, he seems to thrive off contact and leverage when battling in the trenches, so it would definitely be an adjustment. I think Gholston would get some sacks just from pure edge speed in the pros, but Long is the guy I would trust to disengage his man and track down a ball carrier from linebacker.

Joeyjr09
03-30-2008, 02:33 PM
Joe,

No one is belittling anyone. You pointed out that Ryan lost the FSU game and I am telling you that he won the VA tech game. Thats all. You said that Long projects better than Gholston because he is one-dimensional. I am pointing out that Gholston and Long basically did the same thing which was rushing the passer and that Gholston did it better than Long. How does that make C. Long multi-faceted? Gholston also has better measurables than Long in pretty much every category. I am not downgrading Long because of effort. I am saying that what you see is what you get and that I don't think he has enough ability to improve at the pro level to become what a #1 overall should. Gholston does. I even think Ryan does because of the position he plays. I think Ryan surrounded with decent (not even great) talent will be a very good NFL qb. He played on what would have been a 5-6 win team and instead, they were much better because of him. I do tend to bump up QB's for intangibles, but only if I see ability as well. Otherwise, Ken Dorsey, Josh Heupel and Danny Wuerffel would be superstars today. I think Ryan has above-average tools that combined with the other stuff could make him a very good QB. Again, I would like to point that unless Tuna and crew are sold on him as a big time QB, I DO NOT want them picking Ryan. I am just saying that I think has more ability and upside for the #1 than C. Long. At the end of the day, if they take C. Long, I think that unless he is surrounded by game changers on D, he will be neutralized. I think Gholston, J. Long, McFadden and even Ryan can be guys who make the others around them better because of their ability.

Dude, I'm with you on Gholston. He's might be my favorite prospect in the draft. I go back and forth between him and Chris Long every day. I'd love to have him. No questions asked.

However, saying Chris Long did the same as Vernon Gholston by just being a pass rusher is very false. Vernon Gholston played in a 4-3 defense and basically all he did was bull rush and blast off the edge by the OTs. Chris Long on the other hand played in a 3-4 and was asked to hold his position at the point against OTs much more often. He was used in the run game alot more then Gholston ever was and thus his game is more well rounded being able to handle the run equally as well as the pass. Gholston is average in the run stopping department while Chris Long is one of the better run stopping players in the draft. Vernon Gholston at this point is an athlete, Chris Long however, is a football player. His technique, use of his hands and leverage are 2nd to none in the this draft.

So yes, with Chris Long what you see is what you get partially. But that's not because he is lacking talent or not an elite talent. It is because he already has so much much of what he needs to know for the NFL in his system (Likely due to his father's teaching) that he is as polished a player as you will find. However, none of that means that Chris Long doesn't have upside or great talent. As you pointed out, Vernon Gholston had better measurables then Vernon Gholston, but it's not by alot. Gholston had a 4.67 40 at 266 pounds. Chris Long had a 4.71 40 at 272 pounds. I've already stated that Chris Long has the best 20 yard shuttle of any DE, better then Gholston. Mean's he's got more burst and explosion then Gholston. Gholston's numbers are better, but not head and shoulders, another level better. Chris Long's are still top of the food chain good.

None of this even takes into account that Gholston has very stiff hips and doesn't change directions well which will hurt him big time in coverage. Chris Long on the other hand is very fluid and should be able to be a solid LB in coverage.

I think the difference between the two is that with Gholston, he has the potential to be Shawn Merriman or DeMarcus Ware. With Chris Long, your looking at the potential to be a Willie McGinest. He's just a notch below talent wise. The big thing is, there's a much better chance of Chris Long putting it all together and being a Willie McGinest (because he is so well rounded and polished), then of Vernon Gholston putting it all together and hitting his ceiling of being a Ware or Merriman.

I'm with you that I'd rather take the chance that you get a Ware or Merriman by picking Gholston but Willie McGinest was a beast in his prime and definately a guy you had to game plan against and a guy that could change a game singlehandedly. He is not at all a guy I would be against having with the number 1 overall pick.

For arguments sake, here are what I see the top 5 guys panning out as if they were to hit their ceiling. These are not comparisions are far as style of play or body size or anything like that. It is a comparision in the type of impact I believe they can make if they pan out for the best. Also put them in order that I would like to take them in. All the comparisions are from when the players were in their primes.

Vernon Gholston--- DeMarcus Ware
Chris Long--- Willie McGinest
Jake Long--- Matt Light (as a LT), Jordan Gross (as a RT)
Darren McFadden--- Brian Westbrook
Matt Ryan--- Jake Plummer

thebow305
03-30-2008, 03:32 PM
Dude, I'm with you on Gholston. He's might be my favorite prospect in the draft. I go back and forth between him and Chris Long every day. I'd love to have him. No questions asked.

However, saying Chris Long did the same as Vernon Gholston by just being a pass rusher is very false. Vernon Gholston played in a 4-3 defense and basically all he did was bull rush and blast off the edge by the OTs. Chris Long on the other hand played in a 3-4 and was asked to hold his position at the point against OTs much more often. He was used in the run game alot more then Gholston ever was and thus his game is more well rounded being able to handle the run equally as well as the pass. Gholston is average in the run stopping department while Chris Long is one of the better run stopping players in the draft. Vernon Gholston at this point is an athlete, Chris Long however, is a football player. His technique, use of his hands and leverage are 2nd to none in the this draft.

So yes, with Chris Long what you see is what you get partially. But that's not because he is lacking talent or not an elite talent. It is because he already has so much much of what he needs to know for the NFL in his system (Likely due to his father's teaching) that he is as polished a player as you will find. However, none of that means that Chris Long doesn't have upside or great talent. As you pointed out, Vernon Gholston had better measurables then Vernon Gholston, but it's not by alot. Gholston had a 4.67 40 at 266 pounds. Chris Long had a 4.71 40 at 272 pounds. I've already stated that Chris Long has the best 20 yard shuttle of any DE, better then Gholston. Mean's he's got more burst and explosion then Gholston. Gholston's numbers are better, but not head and shoulders, another level better. Chris Long's are still top of the food chain good.

None of this even takes into account that Gholston has very stiff hips and doesn't change directions well which will hurt him big time in coverage. Chris Long on the other hand is very fluid and should be able to be a solid LB in coverage.

I think the difference between the two is that with Gholston, he has the potential to be Shawn Merriman or DeMarcus Ware. With Chris Long, your looking at the potential to be a Willie McGinest. He's just a notch below talent wise. The big thing is, there's a much better chance of Chris Long putting it all together and being a Willie McGinest (because he is so well rounded and polished), then of Vernon Gholston putting it all together and hitting his ceiling of being a Ware or Merriman.

I'm with you that I'd rather take the chance that you get a Ware or Merriman by picking Gholston but Willie McGinest was a beast in his prime and definately a guy you had to game plan against and a guy that could change a game singlehandedly. He is not at all a guy I would be against having with the number 1 overall pick.

For arguments sake, here are what I see the top 5 guys panning out as if they were to hit their ceiling. These are not comparisions are far as style of play or body size or anything like that. It is a comparision in the type of impact I believe they can make if they pan out for the best. Also put them in order that I would like to take them in. All the comparisions are from when the players were in their primes.

Vernon Gholston--- DeMarcus Ware
Chris Long--- Willie McGinest
Jake Long--- Matt Light (as a LT), Jordan Gross (as a RT)
Darren McFadden--- Brian Westbrook
Matt Ryan--- Jake Plummer

Very good argument. I don't know why you weren't saying this kinda stuff when we used to argue because it actually looks like you know what you are talking about now and that's good to see. All very valid points and I'm glad you pointed out the run stopping differences in each prospect because Long is a far and away better run stopper than Gholston at this point and I think that is what will hurt us the most initially if we were to take him over Long. es, he may end up being better, way better, but with Chris, you know what you are getting, a VERY good player with probably 3-5 Pro Bowls in his career, as well as a team leader and face of our defense for the next 10 years, bottom line. Gholston may end up being an LT-like Sack Machine that goes to the hall of fame for us and tops the OLBer rankings in league for the next 10 years. But he could also end up being a big-time bust. And I think there is WAY bigger chance of this with VG than CL. Which is what scares me the most. I think Gholston is the ultimate Boom-or-Bust prospect in this draft. As far as your comparisons go Joey, I don't see the Gholston-Ware one at all, basically because I'm not sure Gholston will ever be where Ware is in coverage. For as big as Ware is, he is very nimble, fast, and active in the passing game. I think the Merriman comparison is more accurate, because from tha standpoint, Merriman is an ELITE pass rusher, but is very average in coverage, at best. Kamerion Wimbley may be closer as well. This is how I see it:

Vernon Gholston: (Best: Shawne Merriman/ Worst: Kamerion Wimbley)
Chris Long: (Best: Patrick Kearney/ Worst: Same (He is a Kearney-Clone)
Jake Long: (Best: (At LT) Matt Light, Worst: Robert Gallery, Best: (At RT) Jon Runyan, Worst: Kyle Turley)

Quagmire
03-30-2008, 06:46 PM
Dude, I'm with you on Gholston. He's might be my favorite prospect in the draft. I go back and forth between him and Chris Long every day. I'd love to have him. No questions asked.

However, saying Chris Long did the same as Vernon Gholston by just being a pass rusher is very false. Vernon Gholston played in a 4-3 defense and basically all he did was bull rush and blast off the edge by the OTs. Chris Long on the other hand played in a 3-4 and was asked to hold his position at the point against OTs much more often. He was used in the run game alot more then Gholston ever was and thus his game is more well rounded being able to handle the run equally as well as the pass. Gholston is average in the run stopping department while Chris Long is one of the better run stopping players in the draft. Vernon Gholston at this point is an athlete, Chris Long however, is a football player. His technique, use of his hands and leverage are 2nd to none in the this draft.

So yes, with Chris Long what you see is what you get partially. But that's not because he is lacking talent or not an elite talent. It is because he already has so much much of what he needs to know for the NFL in his system (Likely due to his father's teaching) that he is as polished a player as you will find. However, none of that means that Chris Long doesn't have upside or great talent. As you pointed out, Vernon Gholston had better measurables then Vernon Gholston, but it's not by alot. Gholston had a 4.67 40 at 266 pounds. Chris Long had a 4.71 40 at 272 pounds. I've already stated that Chris Long has the best 20 yard shuttle of any DE, better then Gholston. Mean's he's got more burst and explosion then Gholston. Gholston's numbers are better, but not head and shoulders, another level better. Chris Long's are still top of the food chain good.

None of this even takes into account that Gholston has very stiff hips and doesn't change directions well which will hurt him big time in coverage. Chris Long on the other hand is very fluid and should be able to be a solid LB in coverage.

I think the difference between the two is that with Gholston, he has the potential to be Shawn Merriman or DeMarcus Ware. With Chris Long, your looking at the potential to be a Willie McGinest. He's just a notch below talent wise. The big thing is, there's a much better chance of Chris Long putting it all together and being a Willie McGinest (because he is so well rounded and polished), then of Vernon Gholston putting it all together and hitting his ceiling of being a Ware or Merriman.

I'm with you that I'd rather take the chance that you get a Ware or Merriman by picking Gholston but Willie McGinest was a beast in his prime and definately a guy you had to game plan against and a guy that could change a game singlehandedly. He is not at all a guy I would be against having with the number 1 overall pick.

For arguments sake, here are what I see the top 5 guys panning out as if they were to hit their ceiling. These are not comparisions are far as style of play or body size or anything like that. It is a comparision in the type of impact I believe they can make if they pan out for the best. Also put them in order that I would like to take them in. All the comparisions are from when the players were in their primes.

Vernon Gholston--- DeMarcus Ware
Chris Long--- Willie McGinest
Jake Long--- Matt Light (as a LT), Jordan Gross (as a RT)
Darren McFadden--- Brian Westbrook
Matt Ryan--- Jake Plummer

Joe,

I think we will agree to disagree. You do make a good point about Long playing in a 3-4 vs VG in a 4-3. I think Ryan can be a taller Drew Brees with a better arm and maybe a little more. I think J Long can be an Erik Williams type at RT, and can be a more physical Tarik Glenn at LT. Again, I would still go with the other guys over C Long, but you have some valid facts with your opinion...

BigBlueCrew56
03-30-2008, 07:01 PM
Since you guys are doing comparisons I'll join into the fray


Chris Long- At Best: Patrick Kerney in a 4-3 at best is a 3-4 Kevin Greene
At Worst: Justin Smith


Vernon Gholston- At Best: Shawne Merriman in a 3-4 a 4-3 Leonard Little
At Worst: Joey Porter


Jake Long- At Best: Tony Bosselli or Jumbo Elliott
At Worst: Matt Light or Jon Runyan

Joeyjr09
03-30-2008, 07:24 PM
Since you guys are doing comparisons I'll join into the fray


Chris Long- At Best: Patrick Kerney in a 4-3 at best is a 3-4 Kevin Greene
At Worst: Justin Smith


Vernon Gholston- At Best: Shawne Merriman in a 3-4 a 4-3 Leonard Little
At Worst: Joey Porter


Jake Long- At Best: Tony Bosselli or Jumbo Elliott
At Worst: Matt Light or Jon Runyan

No way Jake Long is ever Tony Bosselli. Remember, before injuries Tony Bosselli was on his way to being one of the best OTs to ever play the game of football. Joe Thomas will probably never be what Bosselli was at his prime and Jake Long ain't even gonna be Joe Thomas.

Joeyjr09
03-30-2008, 10:32 PM
Joe,
I think Ryan can be a taller Drew Brees with a better arm and maybe a little more.

I have to say, I think your way overrating Matt Ryan if you think he will be Drew Brees. Drew is one of the 5 best QBs in the NFL. Matt Ryan will be lucky if he can crack the top 20 at some point in his career. Matt Ryan is more Jake Plummer or if you wanna go a little higher, maybe a Jake Delhomme but Ryan will never be Drew Brees.

Quagmire
03-31-2008, 09:17 AM
I have to say, I think your way overrating Matt Ryan if you think he will be Drew Brees. Drew is one of the 5 best QBs in the NFL. Matt Ryan will be lucky if he can crack the top 20 at some point in his career. Matt Ryan is more Jake Plummer or if you wanna go a little higher, maybe a Jake Delhomme but Ryan will never be Drew Brees.

Joe,

I think Brees is in that 5 to 10 range for QB's at this time and I think Ryan can get to that level. Again, lets agree to disagree. I think Ryan will be a very good NFL QB along the lines of a Brees or Hasselbeck.... I do not see him as a Brady, P. Manning, Palmer elite-type QB.

Joeyjr09
03-31-2008, 02:50 PM
Joe,

I think Brees is in that 5 to 10 range for QB's at this time and I think Ryan can get to that level. Again, lets agree to disagree. I think Ryan will be a very good NFL QB along the lines of a Brees or Hasselbeck.... I do not see him as a Brady, P. Manning, Palmer elite-type QB.

Curious to see who your top 5 is if Brees isn't in there. There's Brady, Manning, Big Ben, Carson and then Brees. You I guess try to make a case of Eli based on last year's playoffs and maybe Tony Romo but Brees is definately no worse then 7th and likely higher.

Your right tho, we are gonna have to disagree on this one. No way on God's green earth does Matt Ryan have the talent to be a top 10 NFL QB. Even if you factor in intangibles that he supposedly has, I just don't see the physical ability to be a top 10 QB. He'll be in the top 20-25 range if he pans out but I'm definately not seeinf Brees or Hasselbeck type of talent out of Ryan.

Like I said, Ryan is closer to Jake Plummer and Jake Delhomme and I think you'll find that most people will think along those same lines.

Wish Scott was doing those old mailbag questions, this would be an interesting one to ask him. But I'm guessing by his ranking of Ryan at number 7 overall prospect. He doesn't see Ryan as a Brees type. Brees is a franchise cornerstone you can build an offense around, Ryan, not so much.

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 09:45 AM
Just stating the obvious already. Wayne Huizenga has come out and said that nobody wants to trade for the #1 pick and they are going to have to swallow the burden of making the huge financial commitment to an unproven rookie.

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 10:13 AM
This is probably going to piss you off Joey


In this case I think finances should definitely have something to do with it.

Jake Long and Chris Long probably carry very similar grades on just about everyone's board so in terms of talent you can make a case for either being the #1 pick. However, paying Jake Long $30 million guaranteed would basically be in line with what top offensive tackles are getting these days and in all actuality it might be a bargain. However, giving Chris Long that type of money would be overpaying. For example, last offseason Adalius Thomas and Joey Porter, two proven Pro Bowl performers at 3-4 OLB, only received $20 million guaranteed.

Furthermore, ever notice how guys like Jon Ogden, Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, and even Flozell Adams have all played for one team their entire careers? Stud offensive tackles just do not hit the open market. Period. If you need one you had better find him through the draft.

If I were Bill Parcells and I have to make a pick at #1 Jake Long is a no-brainer.
__________________
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NFL Draft Countdown.com
www.nfldraftcountdown.com

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 10:19 AM
Oops already saw that you responded in the previous thread Joey. My Bad

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 11:20 AM
Posted by Omar Kelly at 8:44:26 AM
If you believe the Mambo King is giving up professional football to become the Lord of the Dance you might as well bet the farm that the Dolphins will also win the Super Bowl this season.

Neither are happening. At least not anytime soon. It's April Fools folks. Jason Taylor's not retiring, despite what ProFootballtalk is says. Got to love the Internet!

And according to coach Tony Sparano, Taylor's also not going anywhere, unless he retires, which backs up what V.P. of Football Operations, Bill Parcells has been saying. And two NFL executives recently backed up those claims.

On Tuesday Sparano said the Dolphins have big plans for Taylor, who will fill that Lawrence Taylor role in the Dolphins 3-4 defense, which coincidentally Sparano is not committing to despite the team presently being built for it

Quagmire
04-01-2008, 11:34 AM
Posted by Omar Kelly at 8:44:26 AM
If you believe the Mambo King is giving up professional football to become the Lord of the Dance you might as well bet the farm that the Dolphins will also win the Super Bowl this season.

Neither are happening. At least not anytime soon. It's April Fools folks. Jason Taylor's not retiring, despite what ProFootballtalk is says. Got to love the Internet!

And according to coach Tony Sparano, Taylor's also not going anywhere, unless he retires, which backs up what V.P. of Football Operations, Bill Parcells has been saying. And two NFL executives recently backed up those claims.

On Tuesday Sparano said the Dolphins have big plans for Taylor, who will fill that Lawrence Taylor role in the Dolphins 3-4 defense, which coincidentally Sparano is not committing to despite the team presently being built for it

Blue,

Lets hope the April Fools Joke is that Taylor is not getting traded... He needs to go for picks.... I still think (and pray) he goes before the draft........

Agree with you with taking Jake over Chris, though I would take Gholston over all of them.......

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 02:08 PM
I feel good with what Sparano had to say about Jason Taylor being a big part of what they want to do on defense. He also blurted out his defense during the interview. He also gushed about Charlie Anderson being a viable backup at OLB.


OLB Jason Taylor ILB Reggie Torbor ILB Channing Crowder OLB Joey Porter


DE Vonnie Holliday/Matt Roth DT Jason Ferguson DE Randy Starks

thebow305
04-01-2008, 03:12 PM
I feel good with what Sparano had to say about Jason Taylor being a big part of what they want to do on defense. He also blurted out his defense during the interview. He also gushed about Charlie Anderson being a viable backup at OLB.


OLB Jason Taylor ILB Reggie Torbor ILB Channing Crowder OLB Joey Porter


DE Vonnie Holliday/Matt Roth DT Jason Ferguson DE Randy Starks

I guess he just forgot about Vernon Gholston... jeez! :)

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 03:25 PM
I guess he just forgot about Vernon Gholston... jeez! :)


Good stuff Bow HAHAHAHA


Let me tell you Bow if you get Gholston right as the pick this year you will be officially crowned in my book as the Dolphin draft Nastradamus. I havent forgotten your Ted Ginn Jr. call last year.

Joeyjr09
04-01-2008, 03:48 PM
I feel good with what Sparano had to say about Jason Taylor being a big part of what they want to do on defense. He also blurted out his defense during the interview. He also gushed about Charlie Anderson being a viable backup at OLB.


OLB Jason Taylor ILB Reggie Torbor ILB Channing Crowder OLB Joey Porter


DE Vonnie Holliday/Matt Roth DT Jason Ferguson DE Randy Starks

He gushed about Anderson and he said Taylor was here to stay. Take any talk about Taylor with a grain of salt tho. The team isn't going to come out and say Taylor is on the block as his value will instantly go down. Ireland and Tuna will say JT is a Miami Dolphin until they deal him for picks.

However, I love you selective reading. You talk about them gushing over Anderson and keeping Taylor. However, you completely ignore Sparano saying that Carey is the starting LT and Mormino is the starting LG. You also ignore Ireland saying that they will not draft for need early in the draft. Funny how you only point out the aspects that help your guy.

Fact is, nothing that was said today has changed anything. He said things that benefit and hurt all candidates for the top pick. We are no closer now to knowing who we will pick then we were yesterday and trying to put together selective parts of article on the web to show otherwise is a waste of time.

Oh and for all the talk about financial implications. Paying a RT 1st pick money is just as bad as paying an OLB 1st pick money. And remember Bill Parcells has the final say in this. He is not a money guy, he is a football guy. He knows that no matter what he is gonna dish out tons of cash and he doesn't care because at the end of the day there is nothing be can do about it.What he can do is just go out and get the best player possible. So whoever is ranked at number 1 on his draft board is who he is taking.

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 03:51 PM
Draft predictions if we dont go offensive line

OT Jake Long- Rams,Falcons,Cheifs

OT Ryan Clady- Cheifs,Broncos,Panthers

OT Chris Williams- Bears,Panthers,Broncos,Lions, or Eagles

OT Jeff Otah- Cheifs,Bears,Lions,Eagles,Pittsburgh

OT Gosder Cherilus- Bears,Pittsburgh,San Diego,49ers

OG Branden Alberts- Pittsburgh or Seattle


Players availible when the phins draft at the top of the 2nd

OT Anthony Collins, OT Sam Baker, Carl Nicks



In my own opinion the Phins will have to reach for one the offensive lineman still left on the board with the top pick in the second. If they wait until the later pick in the second they might be left with nobody who can step in day one and make an impact. This is why I am stressing the importance of drafting Jake Long at #1. If we draft Jake at #1 then we are in the driver's seat to take the BPA at many positions that are going to be of real good value at the top of the 2nd round of the draft such as

QB Chad Henne or Joe Flacco

CB Brandon Flowers or CB Antoine Cason

OG Chilo Rachal

ILB Erin Henderson or ILB Curtis Lofton

DE/OLB Lawrence Jackson or Cliff Avril


All of these players grade out better then the values of Collins,Baker, or Nicks.

Joeyjr09
04-01-2008, 04:02 PM
Cherilus, Collins, Baker, Nicks and maybe if we get lucky a guy like Otah will be there in early round 2. Not to mention, our number 32 pick is likely to get dealt. Tuna likes draft day trades more then most and loves to move up and down draft boards to get the guys he wants.

Believe me, he's not gonna sit there and draft Nicks if he thinks he can get him 7-8 picks later. He will trade out with a team that wants someone would slips and he will stockpile picks for later.

BTW...I think you are severly underestimating Nicks, Baker and Collins. Any other year, those guys are getting looks as low 1st round picks. Think along the lines of Joe Staley. As a matter of fact, before Baker pulled out of the draft last season, he was ranked ahead of Joe Staley. Nicks, Baker and Collins can all make an impact right away at RT for us.

Don't think that because we are getting the number 5-7 ranked player at a position that he is a bad player. This just happens to be a very deep position this season and many of the players at OT are going to be taken later then they would go any other year.

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 06:02 PM
Cherilus, Collins, Baker, Nicks and maybe if we get lucky a guy like Otah will be there in early round 2. Not to mention, our number 32 pick is likely to get dealt. Tuna likes draft day trades more then most and loves to move up and down draft boards to get the guys he wants.

Believe me, he's not gonna sit there and draft Nicks if he thinks he can get him 7-8 picks later. He will trade out with a team that wants someone would slips and he will stockpile picks for later.

BTW...I think you are severly underestimating Nicks, Baker and Collins. Any other year, those guys are getting looks as low 1st round picks. Think along the lines of Joe Staley. As a matter of fact, before Baker pulled out of the draft last season, he was ranked ahead of Joe Staley. Nicks, Baker and Collins can all make an impact right away at RT for us.

Don't think that because we are getting the number 5-7 ranked player at a position that he is a bad player. This just happens to be a very deep position this season and many of the players at OT are going to be taken later then they would go any other year.

Carl Nicks- Off the field problems (Getting kicked out proday too me doesnt project well for this regime)

Sam Baker- I see him more as a guard and think he may be too soft to play for Parcells. Per reports he lacks a nasty demeanor and gets pushed back often. Doesnt seem the type to project in a run 1st offense. Seems more like Zone Block OT.

Anthony Collins- I like him but I like him as a project player. Not someone who is going to step in right away and protect a young QB. He is no where near the caliber player Jake Long is. Not even Close bro.

BigBlueCrew56
04-01-2008, 06:05 PM
That photo of Allen Bailey by the way is gangsta. Cant wait to see him light some fools up.

Quagmire
04-01-2008, 07:53 PM
Cherilus, Collins, Baker, Nicks and maybe if we get lucky a guy like Otah will be there in early round 2. Not to mention, our number 32 pick is likely to get dealt. Tuna likes draft day trades more then most and loves to move up and down draft boards to get the guys he wants.

Believe me, he's not gonna sit there and draft Nicks if he thinks he can get him 7-8 picks later. He will trade out with a team that wants someone would slips and he will stockpile picks for later.

BTW...I think you are severly underestimating Nicks, Baker and Collins. Any other year, those guys are getting looks as low 1st round picks. Think along the lines of Joe Staley. As a matter of fact, before Baker pulled out of the draft last season, he was ranked ahead of Joe Staley. Nicks, Baker and Collins can all make an impact right away at RT for us.

Don't think that because we are getting the number 5-7 ranked player at a position that he is a bad player. This just happens to be a very deep position this season and many of the players at OT are going to be taken later then they would go any other year.

Joe,

No way Otah drops that far. Definite top 20 pick. In fact, I think in round 1 you will see 6 guys go at the OL position. J. Long, Clady, Otah, B. Albert, Williams and Cherilus.

As for Baker and Collins, both are finesse style LT's. I don't think either fits what they are trying to do and I really think both would be bad choices at the top of round 2. Nicks is intriguing, but he does have the off the field stuff going on. If they were to move down in round 2 and maybe use the pick that they rec'd for Chambers to take him, I would be interested. Before that, I probably would not touch him. Maybe a Chilo Rachal high in round 2 to play G?

I really think he may not address the OL til rounds 3 and 4. I think he may look more at effort guys like John Greco or Mike McGlynn. Also, remember the name Shawn Murphy. After reading about him and then seeing that Miami attended his pro day, I think he could be a late round steal and player of interest at the G position.

Hopefully, by the time draft day rolls around, they have some extra picks between rounds 2-5 (from tradedowns and hopefully a JT trade) that could help address a few more issues. Needs are important, but they have to take the best player available. Too much of a rebuild here to reach for needs.

Quagmire
04-01-2008, 08:02 PM
Draft predictions if we dont go offensive line

OT Jake Long- Rams,Falcons,Cheifs

OT Ryan Clady- Cheifs,Broncos,Panthers

OT Chris Williams- Bears,Panthers,Broncos,Lions, or Eagles

OT Jeff Otah- Cheifs,Bears,Lions,Eagles,Pittsburgh

OT Gosder Cherilus- Bears,Pittsburgh,San Diego,49ers

OG Branden Alberts- Pittsburgh or Seattle


Players availible when the phins draft at the top of the 2nd

OT Anthony Collins, OT Sam Baker, Carl Nicks



In my own opinion the Phins will have to reach for one the offensive lineman still left on the board with the top pick in the second. If they wait until the later pick in the second they might be left with nobody who can step in day one and make an impact. This is why I am stressing the importance of drafting Jake Long at #1. If we draft Jake at #1 then we are in the driver's seat to take the BPA at many positions that are going to be of real good value at the top of the 2nd round of the draft such as

QB Chad Henne or Joe Flacco

CB Brandon Flowers or CB Antoine Cason

OG Chilo Rachal

ILB Erin Henderson or ILB Curtis Lofton

DE/OLB Lawrence Jackson or Cliff Avril


All of these players grade out better then the values of Collins,Baker, or Nicks.

Blue,

I think there is some great value in round 2, though I agree with you that the OT position may be a bit of a reach up there. Although Rachal at G would be a nice pick.

I like the idea of trading down and adding some more depth in rounds 3 to 5. In round 2, there should still be some excellent DB's and WR's to choose from (Patrick Lee, Andre Caldwell, James Hardy, Dajuan Morgan) to go along with the guys that you mentioned. I do think that at least 1, if not both of the QB's mentioned will be gone by their pick. I wish that some impact guys in the front seven on defense would be there in round 2, but I think the majority of those guys are going to be gone..

Quagmire
04-01-2008, 08:44 PM
Joe,

One other OL name that I like is Duane Brown in rounds 3 to 4. Lots of potential at LT. Another guy is Kirk Barton who could be more of a guy in rounds 4-5 as a RT or G possibility....

thebow305
04-02-2008, 12:00 AM
He gushed about Anderson and he said Taylor was here to stay. Take any talk about Taylor with a grain of salt tho. The team isn't going to come out and say Taylor is on the block as his value will instantly go down. Ireland and Tuna will say JT is a Miami Dolphin until they deal him for picks.

However, I love you selective reading. You talk about them gushing over Anderson and keeping Taylor. However, you completely ignore Sparano saying that Carey is the starting LT and Mormino is the starting LG. You also ignore Ireland saying that they will not draft for need early in the draft. Funny how you only point out the aspects that help your guy.

Fact is, nothing that was said today has changed anything. He said things that benefit and hurt all candidates for the top pick. We are no closer now to knowing who we will pick then we were yesterday and trying to put together selective parts of article on the web to show otherwise is a waste of time.

Oh and for all the talk about financial implications. Paying a RT 1st pick money is just as bad as paying an OLB 1st pick money. And remember Bill Parcells has the final say in this. He is not a money guy, he is a football guy. He knows that no matter what he is gonna dish out tons of cash and he doesn't care because at the end of the day there is nothing be can do about it.What he can do is just go out and get the best player possible. So whoever is ranked at number 1 on his draft board is who he is taking.

I actually think that BBC's refusal to address Sparano saying Carey is the LT is just a mistake on his part, because it helps out Jake a little bit as our pick, because most people project him as a RT anyway, and a very good one at that. On the flipside, you are right though, taking a RT number one overall would be foolish, would cost too much, and just is not going to happen. When he named Carey the starting LT for next season, he might as well denounced Jake as our pick alltogether. That's how it's looking right now. Just like I have been saying all along, it is a two-horse race between Vernon Gholston and Chris Long. Chris being the favorite but with Gholston gaining some serious steam and momentum heading down the stretch run here. I feel more confident with each passing day about my Gholston prediction I made months ago. Don't get me wrong, I would be happy with either, I just see Gholston as the pick.

Sniper
04-02-2008, 12:16 AM
[QUOTE=thebow305;984620]

Jake Long is out: Jake is certainly not that, especially because he will never be an ELITE Left Tackle in the NFL based on the perspective of many NFL draft experts.[QUOTE]

Yeah, those draft experts are ALWAYS right.

Perhaps you can explain the Jake Long LT hate. I don't get it. The guy is a crushing run blocker and gave up 2 sacks in his college career, but isn't a good LT in the pros. Ryan Clady gave up way more than 2 sacks this year alone, yet I'm not hearing anyone question his LT ability.

BigBlueCrew56
04-02-2008, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addict
hey Scott, are you going to reconsider certain workout guys (maybe chris long?), because as of now D-Mac is the only one with an 'elite prospect' level...

I don't foresee anyone getting that elusive fifth star right now.

The only one who would really even be in the running is Jake Long.
__________________
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NFL Draft Countdown.com
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BigBlueCrew56
04-02-2008, 10:00 AM
Also another tidbit for you guys it seems that both Todd McShay and Mel Kiper Jr. have recently changed Jake Long to be there #1 pick. I would post the link but that would be a violation so go on and look for yourselves.

Joeyjr09
04-02-2008, 02:55 PM
We all know Scott like Jake Long more then most. Just like he liked BQ more then most last year.

As for McShay and Kiper. They rotate picks all the time. By the time the draft rolls around, they will have had Ryan, Chris Long, Jake Long and McFadden at the top of the draft that way when one of the guys gets picked they can say they were right all along. That's nothing new with the ESPN guys. That's how they handle things.

BigBlueCrew56
04-03-2008, 11:58 AM
I know I have been getting my head twisted in here over my support for Jake Long but the truth of the matter is I would be happy more then happy if we chose Chris Long. I just think Jake makes more sense at this time or should I say better yet the draft's top overall rated offensive tackle. We have done very little in the offseason to provide our QB's with adequate protection so I deem it necessary to have someone be able to start from day one with very little flaws in there game. Yes we could go out and select a tackle in the 2nd or 3rd but are they going to be as polised as per say Jake Long???? Now if we went on to sign a veteran like Barry Sims then it makes it more plausible for me to wait until later because Sims has been as starting tackle in this league for a long time. He might not be a very good one but he seems like a hold the fort type of guy.

Quagmire
04-03-2008, 03:14 PM
I know I have been getting my head twisted in here over my support for Jake Long but the truth of the matter is I would be happy more then happy if we chose Chris Long. I just think Jake makes more sense at this time or should I say better yet the draft's top overall rated offensive tackle. We have done very little in the offseason to provide our QB's with adequate protection so I deem it necessary to have someone be able to start from day one with very little flaws in there game. Yes we could go out and select a tackle in the 2nd or 3rd but are they going to be as polised as per say Jake Long???? Now if we went on to sign a veteran like Barry Sims then it makes it more plausible for me to wait until later because Sims has been as starting tackle in this league for a long time. He might not be a very good one but he seems like a hold the fort type of guy.

Blue,

No need to defend yourself on the Jake Long thing. He is one of the elite players in the draft. Each of us have our opinions on who the best choice is. I am not in the Chris Long camp myself. I would go VG or Jake before him..

One thing where I disagree with you is that I would not let a Barry Sims signing affect who we draft. He is a journeyman OT who can definitely play for you if you have nothing better, but I would not let that influence my pick at #1. I understand the logic of having him play and developing a lower choice, but if they feel J. Long is the best guy at #1, signing Barry Sims would not make me change that........

thebow305
04-03-2008, 08:24 PM
I know I have been getting my head twisted in here over my support for Jake Long but the truth of the matter is I would be happy more then happy if we chose Chris Long. I just think Jake makes more sense at this time or should I say better yet the draft's top overall rated offensive tackle. We have done very little in the offseason to provide our QB's with adequate protection so I deem it necessary to have someone be able to start from day one with very little flaws in there game. Yes we could go out and select a tackle in the 2nd or 3rd but are they going to be as polised as per say Jake Long???? Now if we went on to sign a veteran like Barry Sims then it makes it more plausible for me to wait until later because Sims has been as starting tackle in this league for a long time. He might not be a very good one but he seems like a hold the fort type of guy.

The one and only way I would be content with Jake Long being the pick at # 1 is if I was assured we would be able to get either Calais Campbell or Quentin Groves at #32. That's the thing that scares me the most. This is a deep OT class. Most people say how deep this DE class is, from top to bottom. But it is not full of ELITE-Quality Hybrids. Once you get past Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Quentin Groves, and maybe Calais (There's a chance he could play there), the drop off is HUGE! And all those guys are 1st round graded guys. There are plenty of OT's graded as solid Round 2 guys, but after the big 4 DE's, the only hybrid that is worthy of a 2nd round pick at all is Cliff Avril. And he is only a LATE 2nd rounder at BEST. And if you ask me, I would rather take the drop off from Jake Long to Gosder Cherilus, than Chris Long to Cliff Avril. Not much difference at all if the first two guys, but in the 2nd two, the gap is HUGE! That's my thinking, whether you agree or not. This is my biggest problem with taking Jake Long.

Sniper
04-03-2008, 11:04 PM
Yeah, those draft experts are ALWAYS right.

Perhaps you can explain the Jake Long LT hate. I don't get it. The guy is a crushing run blocker and gave up 2 sacks in his college career, but isn't a good LT in the pros. Ryan Clady gave up way more than 2 sacks this year alone, yet I'm not hearing anyone question his LT ability.

Still waiting.....

thebow305
04-04-2008, 02:32 AM
Still waiting.....

Did you read my above post, I give my full reasoning why I don't want Long at number one, and it has nothing to do with him playing RT or LT.

Oh, and now you've forced me to do it.... I'm definitely giving DeSean to the Eagles in my next mock. Just for you're trolling! :p