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ChefMike
04-04-2008, 05:30 PM
If you were starting a Team over today... had to choose between the QB's in the AFC North. who would you choose and why ?

BrownsTown
04-04-2008, 05:34 PM
I'd say Carson Palmer. I think he has the potential to become much better where as Ben might have peaked.

ChefMike
04-04-2008, 05:51 PM
I am a Ravens fan so all the Ravens fans don't take this the wrong way...
But are you serious ? The weapons that Big Ben has and the numbers he puts up are silly. Its like Brett Favre type play, he has Hines Ward (Come on this guy is not a HOFer no better than Antonio Freeman when he was in GB with Favre) and Santonio Holmes ?? yeah not so much...

I'll agree Carson is a good QB.. but a proven leader and ability to make his players better ? I think not.

BrownsTown
04-04-2008, 05:54 PM
I am a Ravens fan so all the Ravens fans don't take this the wrong way...
But are you serious ? The weapons that Big Ben has and the numbers he puts up are silly. Its like Brett Favre type play, he has Hines Ward (Come on this guy is not a HOFer no better than Antonio Freeman when he was in GB with Favre) and Santonio Holmes ?? yeah not so much...

I'll agree Carson is a good QB.. but a proven leader and ability to make his players better ? I think not.

Ben is a bit overrated, mostly for the fact his recievers are underrated. Along with his good running game, he has a fringe pro bowler in Ward, Holmes is a very good young reciever, and Heath Miller is an absolute beast. He's got a lot of talent alongside him in the offense. Palmer, however, doesn't have much in the way of a running game, or at least nothing compared to Pitts.

ChefMike
04-04-2008, 06:03 PM
Willie Parker is a product of a good passing game in Pittsburgh he is a little overrated himself. When your throwing to TJ Whosyourmama and Ocho Cinco its tough not to have great numbers. Carson doesn't win though ? Look at the Cleveland game last year ? Carson is not a leader if I was taking a QB to start a new franchise... Carson wouldnt be the guy I want as the face of the Franchise thats for sure...but again thats why this is all opinion..

lordquas
04-04-2008, 10:23 PM
lol at charlie batch

joercky
04-05-2008, 03:49 PM
Why is this even a contest? Their is 1 SB champion among these QB's. Only 1 QB who has had a burger named after him. Only 1 QB who has led his team to the playoffs two out of last 3 years. The only player to break his whole face and have his appendix removed yet still play. Ladies and gents the man is Ben Roethlisberger. Next.

Yung Flippa
04-05-2008, 06:03 PM
You're really going to put Kyle Boller on the list?
It's obvious that Troy Smith is the best QB in the League =D
But, in all seriousness I would have to go with Carson Palmer.

neko4
04-05-2008, 06:05 PM
Here's...Carson
2nd choice would be Brady Quinn
3rd Big Ben
4th Anderson
5th Batch

KCJ58
04-05-2008, 06:13 PM
Why Charlie Batch on this list, I'd rather pick Brian St. Pierre & Ryan Fitzpatrick

neko4
04-05-2008, 06:14 PM
Why Charlie Batch on this list, I'd rather pick Brian St. Pierre & Ryan Fitzpatrick
What have Brian St. Pierre and Ryan Fitzpatrick done recently...nothing
Batch played well when Big Ben got hurt

KCJ58
04-05-2008, 06:15 PM
What have Brian St. Pierre and Ryan Fitzpatrick done recently...nothing
Batch played well when Big Ben got hurt

what has Brady Quinn done? he's on the list too

KCJ58
04-05-2008, 06:16 PM
according to the thread maker it was to start a team from scratch so i would go younger then pick a 33 year Old Back-Up QB

BrownsTown
04-06-2008, 01:53 AM
according to the thread maker it was to start a team from scratch so i would go younger then pick a 33 year Old Back-Up QB

I'd take Fitzpatrick over Boller too. :P

niel89
04-06-2008, 09:49 PM
I'd take Fitzpatrick over Boller too. :P

id take direct snaps to the RB over boller at this point.

Bengalsrocket
04-06-2008, 10:08 PM
Carson is more fundamentally sound then any other QB in the league imo. He's got a great arm, very good accuracy, quick release and great footwork. Had he not gotten his knee destroyed its very possible cincinnati went to the SB that year.

Big Ben has the ring, but that doesn't make him the best. Is Chad and TJ a better WR tandem than Ward / Holmes? Yes. But I think its clear Big Ben has the better D to get him the ball more often and the better running game to compliment him.

People act like Big Ben was some stud when he went to the SB. They basically just ran the ball every play that year, and only asked him to pull it off when it was in favor of the passing game.

Carson has the pressure to pass on more downs than big ben, and thus makes more mistakes. Heres a break down:

Starting @ 04 -

Big Ben:

04, 295 attempts
05, 268 attempts
06, 469 attempts
07, 404 attempts

total = 1436
Carson:

04, 432 attempts
05, 509 attempts
06, 520 attempts
07, 575 attempts

total = 2036

Its not even a comparison how little big ben is needed in pitts verse how much carson is needed in cincinnati. Being surrounded by a great team does not make you a better player.

PalmerToCJ
04-06-2008, 10:58 PM
Willie Parker is a product of a good passing game in Pittsburgh he is a little overrated himself. When your throwing to TJ Whosyourmama and Ocho Cinco its tough not to have great numbers. Carson doesn't win though ? Look at the Cleveland game last year ? Carson is not a leader if I was taking a QB to start a new franchise... Carson wouldnt be the guy I want as the face of the Franchise thats for sure...but again thats why this is all opinion..

Carson is about our only leader, you can pretty much bash the leadership of anyone on this team EXCEPT Carson.

I'm sure if you were arguing how good CJ/TJ were, you'd say, "well they have Palmer throwing to them." The fact of the matter is with the recievers he has, Carson produces and has more load on him than any QB in the AFCN.

I was 10X more impressed with Big Ben last year than the SB year. He just happened to be on the team that won the SB. I had thought he was very overrated up until last year, as of now he has shut me up and he's a dependable QB for sure.

If you had Ben/Carson on your team, you could do MUCH worse.

ChefMike
04-07-2008, 03:32 PM
No I realize it takes 2 to tango... but lets look at the numbers from just this past season...

Big Ben
--------
65.3% Comp (404 Attempts)
3154 yds Passing
32TDs 11 Ints
104.1 Passer Rating
7.8 yds / Pass

Carson
--------
64.9% Comp (575 Attempts)
4131 yds Passing
26 TDs 20 Ints
86.7 Passer Rating
7.2 yds / Pass

Ben Produced more TD's and Turned the ball over less had a higher rating and if he would have thrown 170 more passes would have had more passing yardage (Higher Comp% and yds/pass)

Don't fault him for the system look at the results... Willie Parker is just younger than Rudi Johnson.. not any better and the Line for the Bengals is better, arguably, then Pittsburgh they gave up 3x as many sacks compared to Pittsburgh... so with a quality line you should be able to generate a better offense..

Bengalsrocket
04-07-2008, 05:41 PM
You listed all the wrong stats though :( Carson threw 175 more times than big ben. He's relied upon a lot more. Cincinnati's success is a product of Carson palmer. Ben Roethlisberger's success is a product of Pittsburgh.

ChefMike
04-08-2008, 12:44 PM
You listed all the wrong stats though :( Carson threw 175 more times than big ben. He's relied upon a lot more. Cincinnati's success is a product of Carson palmer. Ben Roethlisberger's success is a product of Pittsburgh.

I clearly listed the Passing Attempts... and remarked to the fact that if Big Ben threw as many times as Carson did... his stats would be better and he would have thrown 45 TDs ?!?! Big Ben threw a TD on average of every 12.6 throws... Carson ???... every 22 throws... so if the production came down to numbers Big Ben is going to blow him away.. but if you look at leadership.. Ok Hines Ward is probably a better leader than Ocho Cinco... but if you took Big Ben and moved him to a different Team and put an average QB in there like a Jake Delhomme or Jon Kitna you think that Pittsburgh is going to do just as well because of the system ? If thats the case than your saying anyone can win in Pittsburgh ?? I can't agree with that statement... Big Ben is a young Brett Favre and Carson is more like Mark Rypien !!! If Rypien wouldnt have had the great players around him he would have never won a Super Bowl...

Ravens1991
04-08-2008, 05:05 PM
I voted for Big Ben. He is young, and everything you look for in a QB preety much. I think he can be HOF when he is done. But I understand if Palmer was selected over him.

Bengalsrocket
04-08-2008, 06:41 PM
I clearly listed the Passing Attempts... and remarked to the fact that if Big Ben threw as many times as Carson did... his stats would be better and he would have thrown 45 TDs ?!?! Big Ben threw a TD on average of every 12.6 throws... Carson ???... every 22 throws... so if the production came down to numbers Big Ben is going to blow him away.. but if you look at leadership.. Ok Hines Ward is probably a better leader than Ocho Cinco... but if you took Big Ben and moved him to a different Team and put an average QB in there like a Jake Delhomme or Jon Kitna you think that Pittsburgh is going to do just as well because of the system ? If thats the case than your saying anyone can win in Pittsburgh ?? I can't agree with that statement... Big Ben is a young Brett Favre and Carson is more like Mark Rypien !!! If Rypien wouldnt have had the great players around him he would have never won a Super Bowl...

I don't think Delhomme or Kitna could win it Pittsburgh (ok, maybe Kitna could do ok in Pittsburgh - but not as good as roethlisberger). And I don't even think Carson would do that great in Pittsburgh (Steeler's O-line isn't great, and despite carson's great feet work, he's still slow from the injury which would result in him throwing the ball away often). But I think Roethlisberger fits well with the other plays in Pittsburgh and in the system.

My only concern is that you're not acknowledging the amount of talent in Pittsburgh verse the amount of talent in Cincinnati. Lets make a little list of all the above average players in 07(obviously this is subjective, but we can come to some sort of an agreement I am sure):

Starting with Cincinnati - TJ, Chad, Carson, Levi Jones, Dexter Jackson, Justin Smith (he was a little questionable in 07, but I still think he hustled his ass off) and Landon Johnson.

Anyone else in cinci was just very average or worse.

In Pittsburgh - Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Heath Miller, Big Ben, Alan Faneca (some questioned Faneca and his age in 07, but I think he was still pretty good), Willie Parker, Najeh Davenport, James Farrior, Casey Hampton, Troy Polamalu, Ike Taylor, Deshea Townsend

cincinnati = 7
Pittsburgh = 12


Unfortunately I didn't find enough time to watch all the Pittsburgh games this year, so just say whoever doesn't deserve to be on that list (either of the lists, actually) and if you got anyone you want to add to Pittsburgh or Cincinnnati feel free to post it and we'll try to reach an agreement.

But again, my point is the Steelers have done a great job of getting talent into Pittsburgh (even depth wise too, imo) and Cincinnati hasn't. We have so many holes on our team its easy to explain to why Carson's stats are worse than a guy who is surrounded by talent.

ChefMike
04-09-2008, 08:04 PM
Ok but your counting the Defense in there... Big Ben and Carson don't do anything for the defense other than keep them off the field so they are well rested when they do have to play and not create turnovers..

Big Ben had just about HALF the amount of INTs that Carson had ?
5 of the players you named as great players for Pittsburgh are on Defense and 1 on Cincy but Najeh Davenport and both of the WR's didnt even generate over 1000yds rec last season ? and the OL in Pittsburgh gave up almost 3x as many sacks as the OL in Cincy ?? Not seeing where your points are holding water ??

Bengalsrocket
04-10-2008, 03:03 AM
Ok but your counting the Defense in there... Big Ben and Carson don't do anything for the defense other than keep them off the field so they are well rested when they do have to play and not create turnovers..

Big Ben had just about HALF the amount of INTs that Carson had ?
5 of the players you named as great players for Pittsburgh are on Defense and 1 on Cincy but Najeh Davenport and both of the WR's didnt even generate over 1000yds rec last season ? and the OL in Pittsburgh gave up almost 3x as many sacks as the OL in Cincy ?? Not seeing where your points are holding water ??

I honestly hope you're kidding =P If you don't think a defense helps a quarterback out you're crazy.

1) Every time Roethlisberger throws an interception his defense has a chance to bail him out. Every time Palmer throws an interception his defense more than likely will not bail him out.

2) A good defense gets the ball back into the QB's hands more often. With the steeler's D, Big Ben will get the ball more often. The more times your offense takes the field, the more times you score, the higher chance you have of winning

3) Not only does a good defense get the ball back more often, but it keeps pressure off the QB. How many times do you think Roethlisberger went into the 4th quarter saying "Ok, I've got to win this game for my team". Now, take that same question and apply it to Palmer.

Also, I think people are reading my statements wrong. I think Roethlisberger is an extremely skilled quarterback - I think he has a good chance of getting another superbowl ring, and possibly even go to the HoF.

However, as good as I think Big Ben is, I also think that stats are bogus in this comparison. Its the same stupid argument where people say Marino wasn't the best QB because didn't have a ring. Its not -his- fault he didn't have a ring, getting a ring is a team effort. There is no single person in the history of football who is responsible for a superbowl ring. Its a team collective effort.

When / if Cincinnati pulls through and starts building a defense that isn't terrible, I think you'll see Palmer's stats improve. Unfortunately until then, people are still going to think its Palmer's fault his stats aren't better, or that cinci isn't winning

Mr. Stiller
04-10-2008, 03:08 AM
Carson is more fundamentally sound then any other QB in the league imo. He's got a great arm, very good accuracy, quick release and great footwork. Had he not gotten his knee destroyed its very possible cincinnati went to the SB that year.

Big Ben has the ring, but that doesn't make him the best. Is Chad and TJ a better WR tandem than Ward / Holmes? Yes. But I think its clear Big Ben has the better D to get him the ball more often and the better running game to compliment him.

People act like Big Ben was some stud when he went to the SB. They basically just ran the ball every play that year, and only asked him to pull it off when it was in favor of the passing game.

Carson has the pressure to pass on more downs than big ben, and thus makes more mistakes. Heres a break down:

Starting @ 04 -

Big Ben:

04, 295 attempts
05, 268 attempts
06, 469 attempts
07, 404 attempts

total = 1436
Carson:

04, 432 attempts
05, 509 attempts
06, 520 attempts
07, 575 attempts

total = 2036

Its not even a comparison how little big ben is needed in pitts verse how much carson is needed in cincinnati. Being surrounded by a great team does not make you a better player.

Oh good lord.. not the "Ben is a game manager because he doesn't throw as much as Carson"..

Please.

If you're taking a QB, You take Ben. Why?

1) You don't need half the Offensive Line talent most other teams need (Instance: Browns/Cincy).

He's top 5, top 3, bad year, top 2 in QB Rating.

He makes plays.

If He's in Cincy's offense he makes ALL the same plays that Carson does, and probably even more.

It's not his fault that he was only asked to pass how many times in Bill Cowhers Archaic offense.

Add to the fact that three of his 4 years starting he's been in the playoffs.

How many for Carson. 1. Who beat him? Big Ben and the Steelers.

All Roethlisberger does is win.

Mr. Stiller
04-10-2008, 03:17 AM
I honestly hope you're kidding =P If you don't think a defense helps a quarterback out you're crazy.

1) Every time Roethlisberger throws an interception his defense has a chance to bail him out. Every time Palmer throws an interception his defense more than likely will not bail him out.

Ben Threw how many INT's to Palmers?

2) A good defense gets the ball back into the QB's hands more often. With the steeler's D, Big Ben will get the ball more often. The more times your offense takes the field, the more times you score, the higher chance you have of winning

Yes.. But we also use a thing called "Ball Control" We don't score immediately so we actualy help our defense. Try it, I'm sure your defensive stats will improve if you can actually dominate TOP.

3) Not only does a good defense get the ball back more often, but it keeps pressure off the QB. How many times do you think Roethlisberger went into the 4th quarter saying "Ok, I've got to win this game for my team". Now, take that same question and apply it to Palmer.

And Ben doesn't have a top 3 WR unit, a top notch offensive line. Sure, he has a great defense.. but at the same time, Carson has perks too. Should we discount Ben because the Steelers defense. Then Discount Carson for having such Talented WR's and Offensive line.

Also, I think people are reading my statements wrong. I think Roethlisberger is an extremely skilled quarterback - I think he has a good chance of getting another superbowl ring, and possibly even go to the HoF.

However, as good as I think Big Ben is, I also think that stats are bogus in this comparison. Its the same stupid argument where people say Marino wasn't the best QB because didn't have a ring. Its not -his- fault he didn't have a ring, getting a ring is a team effort. There is no single person in the history of football who is responsible for a superbowl ring. Its a team collective effort.

Agreed, but the fact remains, and you discount that BEN lead us into the Superbowl. People remember hiw terrible Superbowl performance (As the YOUNGEST QB IN HISTORY in the SUPERBOWL). At the same time, they don't realize that he had an INCREDIBLE post season play to get us there. He threw 1 INT until the superbowl, had 7 TD's to his name. A ridiculously high YPA somewhere around 8.5, AND he beat the 3rd, 2nd and 4th Seeded teams. He lead a charge as the only 6th seed to ever win a spot at the superbowl. He has numerous rookie records for QB's. THe fact is he's smart with the ball. All you've done is tried to discredit Ben meanwhile you make no unbiased views of Carson. Ben has benefitted from a Run game in his first 2 seasons and a good defense. But if you had watched every game last season, especially the 2nd half of the season, you'd realize he had NO OFFENSIVE LINE, NO RUN GAME and the defense fell apart.

When / if Cincinnati pulls through and starts building a defense that isn't terrible, I think you'll see Palmer's stats improve. Unfortunately until then, people are still going to think its Palmer's fault his stats aren't better, or that cinci isn't winning

Everyone else is why Bens so good... but it's everyone else that makes Carson look so bad? He has one of the best WR's in the league in CJ.. a great #2 (Better than some teams #1's) in TJ and he's probably going to get a 1st or 2nd round WR to replace Chris Henry who, when not suspended, was an excellent and tough to match WR.

It's not Bens fault that he's had a decent defense to help him. But he's also been smart with the ball, made good decisions, and led a balanced attack, and led the team with his arm when needed.

The difference is.. Our team tends to strike as quick as possible a few times, then just sit on a lead. Which is why Cowher was something like 140-2-1 when having an 11+pt lead at halftime.

Why do you overlook the offense Ben was instructed to run and ran it to extreme proficiency while your making excuses for Carson?


..............

Bengalsrocket
04-10-2008, 05:59 AM
Ben Threw how many INT's to Palmers?

I don't get what you're saying here =P


Yes.. But we also use a thing called "Ball Control" We don't score immediately so we actualy help our defense. Try it, I'm sure your defensive stats will improve if you can actually dominate TOP.

Very hard to do with a terrible running game. This exactly the compare / contrast argument I making. Big Ben can use ball control because of his great running game, Carson cannot.


And Ben doesn't have a top 3 WR unit, a top notch offensive line. Sure, he has a great defense.. but at the same time, Carson has perks too. Should we discount Ben because the Steelers defense. Then Discount Carson for having such Talented WR's and Offensive line.

I'm not saying Carson doesn't have a good team around, he just doesn't have AS good of a team. If I write anymore here I'll just be repeating myself, I can basically address this line within your next couple of statements.


Agreed, but the fact remains, and you discount that BEN lead us into the Superbowl. People remember hiw terrible Superbowl performance (As the YOUNGEST QB IN HISTORY in the SUPERBOWL). At the same time, they don't realize that he had an INCREDIBLE post season play to get us there. He threw 1 INT until the superbowl, had 7 TD's to his name. A ridiculously high YPA somewhere around 8.5, AND he beat the 3rd, 2nd and 4th Seeded teams. He lead a charge as the only 6th seed to ever win a spot at the superbowl. He has numerous rookie records for QB's. THe fact is he's smart with the ball. All you've done is tried to discredit Ben meanwhile you make no unbiased views of Carson. Ben has benefitted from a Run game in his first 2 seasons and a good defense. But if you had watched every game last season, especially the 2nd half of the season, you'd realize he had NO OFFENSIVE LINE, NO RUN GAME and the defense fell apart.

No one discredits ben for winning a superbowl. Its my philosophy that if you wear a ring, you earned. Even if you're a 3rd string quarterback. But, the facts remain - its not like he carried his team to the superbowl. There is a difference between a prolific passer and a game manager. In 2007, Ben Roethlisberger was a prolific passer, however, in 2004 - he was a game manager (note: I have nothing against game managers, if you'd like proof go read the thread about garrard's new contract in the NFL forums where I defend the 20 million dollars he gets in garunteed money despite being a game manager).

I'll repeat this again though, I've never said ben is a bad quarterback. In fact, he's easily a top 5 QB in this league in my opinion. My only argument here is that I think Carson is a better QB.

Everyone else is why Bens so good... but it's everyone else that makes Carson look so bad? He has one of the best WR's in the league in CJ.. a great #2 (Better than some teams #1's) in TJ and he's probably going to get a 1st or 2nd round WR to replace Chris Henry who, when not suspended, was an excellent and tough to match WR.

It's not Bens fault that he's had a decent defense to help him. But he's also been smart with the ball, made good decisions, and led a balanced attack, and led the team with his arm when needed.

The difference is.. Our team tends to strike as quick as possible a few times, then just sit on a lead. Which is why Cowher was something like 140-2-1 when having an 11+pt lead at halftime.

Why do you overlook the offense Ben was instructed to run and ran it to extreme proficiency while your making excuses for Carson?


idk how you can argue receivers. Chad and TJ are great but thats it. No receiver out of the back field, no tight end. 2 options (thats pretty easy to cover). Steelers have Hines Ward, Heath Miller & Santonio Holmes. Its not like Cincinnati had chris henry, he was suspended for half the year.

And again, its not Ben's "fault" that he has a great defense. but its not carson's "fault" that he had a terrible defense either.

toonsterwu
04-10-2008, 06:07 AM
If I'm starting a team from scratch, it's really only Carson or Ben. My pick would go with Carson Palmer, but it's close.

ChefMike
04-10-2008, 10:57 AM
I honestly hope you're kidding =P If you don't think a defense helps a quarterback out you're crazy.

1) Every time Roethlisberger throws an interception his defense has a chance to bail him out. Every time Palmer throws an interception his defense more than likely will not bail him out.

2) A good defense gets the ball back into the QB's hands more often. With the steeler's D, Big Ben will get the ball more often. The more times your offense takes the field, the more times you score, the higher chance you have of winning

3) Not only does a good defense get the ball back more often, but it keeps pressure off the QB. How many times do you think Roethlisberger went into the 4th quarter saying "Ok, I've got to win this game for my team". Now, take that same question and apply it to Palmer.

Also, I think people are reading my statements wrong. I think Roethlisberger is an extremely skilled quarterback - I think he has a good chance of getting another superbowl ring, and possibly even go to the HoF.

However, as good as I think Big Ben is, I also think that stats are bogus in this comparison. Its the same stupid argument where people say Marino wasn't the best QB because didn't have a ring. Its not -his- fault he didn't have a ring, getting a ring is a team effort. There is no single person in the history of football who is responsible for a superbowl ring. Its a team collective effort.

When / if Cincinnati pulls through and starts building a defense that isn't terrible, I think you'll see Palmer's stats improve. Unfortunately until then, people are still going to think its Palmer's fault his stats aren't better, or that cinci isn't winning

Your missing what is being stated here...the post I was ref: was stated as saying Big Ben has more talent on his Team then Carson does.. and he listed 5 Defensive players... Last time I checked QB's don't throw the ball to defensive players (unless its the goal of the QB to rack up INT's like a madman ????!!?!?) nor is it their job to direct the defense in anyway ? Yes indirectly the Defense helps them out... if we are pulling hairs we can say that Punters are the key asset to the QB because he has the ability to pin the opposing Team's Offense deep in its own territory and giving his Team's Offense better field position when he gets the ball back ?! Come on that is crazy..
Lets be real for just a second about this...as had been said a few times if you put Ben in the system that Carson is in he flourishes more then Carson does... he makes great numbers in the ancient offense he is in (More TD's then Carson did last year mind you)
SO .... you do the math.. how many games has Big Ben won and how many has Carson won ??? (because of him)

The Legend
04-10-2008, 11:02 AM
Ben is a bit overrated, mostly for the fact his recievers are underrated. Along with his good running game, he has a fringe pro bowler in Ward, Holmes is a very good young reciever, and Heath Miller is an absolute beast. He's got a lot of talent alongside him in the offense. Palmer, however, doesn't have much in the way of a running game, or at least nothing compared to Pitts.

so you dont think Palmer is not overrated just dont get that he throws 20 Interceptions had 3 great wide outs decent offensiveline yes he could of had a better run game but if he didnt turn the ball over so much they would have more of a chance to run

Bengalsrocket
04-10-2008, 01:17 PM
3 great wide outs? Sorry you guys are sorely mistaken. in 07 Carson has 2 great wide outs (and if you watched every bengals game last year, you saw how terrible Chad is at running routes). Ben had Santonio Holmes, Hines Ward and Health Miller. None of those 2 are as good as TJ or chad (in my opinion) but all 3 of them together are greater than TJ and chad.

I'd take 3 options over 2, any day of the week.

Shane P. Hallam
04-10-2008, 01:22 PM
It's a hard choice between Palmer and Roethlisberger. Maybe I'm putting on the homer glasses, but I've heard multiple people say (including beat writers for the Bengals,) that Palmer has everything except:

Leadership

When Ocho Cinco gets in his face, does Palmer ever fight back or let him know who is the boss? No. Palmer doesn't have the leadership to really LEAD his team. I think Ben does. Ben does have some injuries, but he is still improving and he is a team leader that is respected in the locker room.

PalmerToCJ
04-10-2008, 01:29 PM
If I'm starting a team from scratch, it's really only Carson or Ben.

Really, in my eyes that's all that needs to be said.

Carson's accuracy/arm are better but I love Ben's elusiveness. As I said, I was more impressed with Ben last year than the SB year.

Pick either one and I can easily see the case. I'd take Carson, why? Because I'm a homer.

LonghornsLegend
04-10-2008, 10:43 PM
From an outside perspective I'd take Big Ben all day...What hasnt he done to prove he is for real? He led his team to 15 wins as a rookie correct? And people gave the credit to everything else but him, although for a QB so young to play so efficient was amazing enough in itself, but he was labeled game manager...Ok, this year he goes out and the Steelers spread the field like the Patriots, he was winning games on his own, by throwing the ball, and throwing it alot...The offense really opened up, and people give him no credit for it, because nobody thought he had that type of ability.


When he's been healthy, he's put up stats and numbers that rival anyone's in the game, he's a beast to bring down and can even run to get the first down...I really dont see what else he could do to prove himself.


As far as Carson goes, he's obviously top tier of QB's, but what was his excuse for looking so poor this year? Because it wasnt because of injury, he had some games where he just threw way too many picks for my taste...I havent seen him wear his heart on his sleeve the way I've seen Big Ben do, and I haven't seen him play with the same passion on game day either.


Just an outsiders perspective though.

Mr. Stiller
04-10-2008, 10:47 PM
I don't get what you're saying here =P



Very hard to do with a terrible running game. This exactly the compare / contrast argument I making. Big Ben can use ball control because of his great running game, Carson cannot.



I'm not saying Carson doesn't have a good team around, he just doesn't have AS good of a team. If I write anymore here I'll just be repeating myself, I can basically address this line within your next couple of statements.




No one discredits ben for winning a superbowl. Its my philosophy that if you wear a ring, you earned. Even if you're a 3rd string quarterback. But, the facts remain - its not like he carried his team to the superbowl. There is a difference between a prolific passer and a game manager. In 2007, Ben Roethlisberger was a prolific passer, however, in 2004 - he was a game manager (note: I have nothing against game managers, if you'd like proof go read the thread about garrard's new contract in the NFL forums where I defend the 20 million dollars he gets in garunteed money despite being a game manager).

I'll repeat this again though, I've never said ben is a bad quarterback. In fact, he's easily a top 5 QB in this league in my opinion. My only argument here is that I think Carson is a better QB.



idk how you can argue receivers. Chad and TJ are great but thats it. No receiver out of the back field, no tight end. 2 options (thats pretty easy to cover). Steelers have Hines Ward, Heath Miller & Santonio Holmes. Its not like Cincinnati had chris henry, he was suspended for half the year.

And again, its not Ben's "fault" that he has a great defense. but its not carson's "fault" that he had a terrible defense either.

Ben doesn't have Heath Miller. Heath Miller is too busy blocking DE's to help with our Pathetic OL..

TJ Housh + CJ > Hines+Santonio.

It's not Bens fault he has a Terrible OL, LESS WEAPONS and still outplays Palmer.

LonghornsLegend
04-10-2008, 10:48 PM
Carson has 2 great wide outs (and if you watched every bengals game last year, you saw how terrible Chad is at running routes).

Thats the funniest thing I've heard in some time, literally I lol'd at that comment, its funny that now that Chad doesn't want to be in Cincy anymore he cant run routes now...Say what you want about Chad, that he even loses focus, but I cant name 5 WR's that run better routes then Chad does consistently, each week...He's one of the toughest guys to cover in the league period because of how quick he is in and out of his breaks and how sharp his routes are...He is in the same league as Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, and those guys would all say the exact same thing about him if asked.

brat316
04-10-2008, 11:00 PM
Come on now Chad Johnson is good. He double moved the hell out of Hall.

Ben I think is the guys to build a team around, but then again you can't go wrong with Carson.

Mr. Stiller
04-10-2008, 11:06 PM
I don't get what you're saying here =P



Very hard to do with a terrible running game. This exactly the compare / contrast argument I making. Big Ben can use ball control because of his great running game, Carson cannot.

Ben had the leading rusher in the league, but Willie Parker was being called overrated because they were pushing him to run nearly 25-28 times a game. We didn't have a great running game. In fact, our running game was on par with yours. Not to mention the fact we have 1/2 the OLine you do.

I'm not saying Carson doesn't have a good team around, he just doesn't have AS good of a team. If I write anymore here I'll just be repeating myself, I can basically address this line within your next couple of statements.

As good a team? You mentino Heath Miller. If you had watched 90% of the games, you'll see Heath spending about 85% of the time blocking because our piss-poor excuse for an offensive line can't pass or run block to save their life.


No one discredits ben for winning a superbowl. Its my philosophy that if you wear a ring, you earned. Even if you're a 3rd string quarterback. But, the facts remain - its not like he carried his team to the superbowl. There is a difference between a prolific passer and a game manager. In 2007, Ben Roethlisberger was a prolific passer, however, in 2004 - he was a game manager (note: I have nothing against game managers, if you'd like proof go read the thread about garrard's new contract in the NFL forums where I defend the 20 million dollars he gets in garunteed money despite being a game manager).

Game Manager? It's not like he carried his team to the superbowl? Did you watch ANY of the post-season for the 2005 Steelers?!?!

3 post season games:

Roethlisberger: 49/72 68% passing, 680 yards, 9.44 YPA, 7 Passing TD's, 1 Rushing TD, 1 INT.

I don't see how thats Game Managing. Add to the fact "The Tackle", Ben got us to the superbowl. And the team finally rose to the occasion and took themselves off his shoulders.

Oh the QB rating of those 3 games? 122.96

Eli Mannings Post season was considered "Prolific".. Let see how he measured..

this was when Eli was 27, not 23.. and against Weaker Competition. His 3 games to the Superbowl..

53/85 62% 599 yards, 7.04 YPA, 4 Passing TDs, 0 INT's, 107.2...

So Was Eli's and most QB's post-seasons no prolific, or do you accept Ben as a prolific Passer, even though He doesn't have the yardage.

Another issue in this "Game Manager" Conversation is.. People ignore the YPA value.

"He doesn't throw 25-30+ Times a game" or "He doesn't have 4000+ Yards". Yeah, but look how far on average he attempted to throw the ball.

Not until this year did Tom Brady's YPA average go above 8 and plenty of his seasons were under 7 Yards per attempt.


I'll repeat this again though, I've never said ben is a bad quarterback. In fact, he's easily a top 5 QB in this league in my opinion. My only argument here is that I think Carson is a better QB.



idk how you can argue receivers. Chad and TJ are great but thats it. No receiver out of the back field, no tight end. 2 options (thats pretty easy to cover). Steelers have Hines Ward, Heath Miller & Santonio Holmes. Its not like Cincinnati had chris henry, he was suspended for half the year.

Who do we have out of the backfield? I'll openly admit that Willie Parker is by far the worst receiving RB in the league. And for the 3rd time. Heath Miller isn't a weapon in our offense. He's an extension of the offensive line that rarely gets to go out for passes.

he probably had less targets than Henry had. Henry still managed 422 yards in 8 games. Which when you think about it.. is more than Miller averaged.

You should really be looking at Chad + TJ vs Hines and Santonio. You guys win that battle.

Not to mention, Carson Palmer wasn't sacked 47 times (and more if Ben wasn't the toughest QB to tackle).

And again, its not Ben's "fault" that he has a great defense. but its not carson's "fault" that he had a terrible defense either.

Again. we may have a better defense, but Carson has better WR & OL talent. which can inflate his stats way better than Bens.


10 Chars....

Bengalsrocket
04-11-2008, 02:01 AM
Thats the funniest thing I've heard in some time, literally I lol'd at that comment, its funny that now that Chad doesn't want to be in Cincy anymore he cant run routes now...Say what you want about Chad, that he even loses focus, but I cant name 5 WR's that run better routes then Chad does consistently, each week...He's one of the toughest guys to cover in the league period because of how quick he is in and out of his breaks and how sharp his routes are...He is in the same league as Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, and those guys would all say the exact same thing about him if asked.

I love Chad to death, and I don't ever want him to leave cinci - I don't run around with "Chad Johnson is dead to me" sigs. And chad before 07 could run routes - but if you watched 07, like I said before, he was constantly off his mark and Carson threw bad passes because of it.

I mean, do you honestly think that its coincidence that the majority of the time palmer threw the ball to TJ, he completed it - but when he threw the ball to chad there were lots of in completions and interceptions?

I think this year, he just wasn't focused on the game and it hurt Palmer's stats more than his. I want chad to get his yellow Mohawk back and go back to doing end zone dances :)

Bengalsrocket
04-11-2008, 02:17 AM
Ben had the leading rusher in the league, but Willie Parker was being called overrated because they were pushing him to run nearly 25-28 times a game. We didn't have a great running game. In fact, our running game was on par with yours. Not to mention the fact we have 1/2 the OLine you do.


There is no way steeler's running game was "on par" with bengals.

Game Manager? It's not like he carried his team to the superbowl? Did you watch ANY of the post-season for the 2005 Steelers?!?!

3 post season games:

Roethlisberger: 49/72 68% passing, 680 yards, 9.44 YPA, 7 Passing TD's, 1 Rushing TD, 1 INT.

I don't see how thats Game Managing. Add to the fact "The Tackle", Ben got us to the superbowl. And the team finally rose to the occasion and took themselves off his shoulders.

Oh the QB rating of those 3 games? 122.96

Eli Mannings Post season was considered "Prolific".. Let see how he measured..

this was when Eli was 27, not 23.. and against Weaker Competition. His 3 games to the Superbowl..

53/85 62% 599 yards, 7.04 YPA, 4 Passing TDs, 0 INT's, 107.2...

So Was Eli's and most QB's post-seasons no prolific, or do you accept Ben as a prolific Passer, even though He doesn't have the yardage.

Another issue in this "Game Manager" Conversation is.. People ignore the YPA value.

"He doesn't throw 25-30+ Times a game" or "He doesn't have 4000+ Yards". Yeah, but look how far on average he attempted to throw the ball.

Not until this year did Tom Brady's YPA average go above 8 and plenty of his seasons were under 7 Yards per attempt.

Alright, we can stop this part of the argument right here because its obvious we're arguing different things. Big Ben did have a pretty incredible post-season performance his rookie year. But what I was talking about was from week 1 to the superbowl, and I think he was more of a game manager on average. Again, I think we can both agree his 17 TDs and 11 INts with only 2400 yards and less than 300 attempts makes him a game manager his rookie year. And I agree, he wasn't a game manager when the post season came.


Who do we have out of the backfield? I'll openly admit that Willie Parker is by far the worst receiving RB in the league. And for the 3rd time. Heath Miller isn't a weapon in our offense. He's an extension of the offensive line that rarely gets to go out for passes.

he probably had less targets than Henry had. Henry still managed 422 yards in 8 games. Which when you think about it.. is more than Miller averaged.

You should really be looking at Chad + TJ vs Hines and Santonio. You guys win that battle.

Not to mention, Carson Palmer wasn't sacked 47 times (and more if Ben wasn't the toughest QB to tackle).


Actually, our offensive line was bruised up and 2 of our best players were benched (Levi Jones and Willie Anderson) through out the year. Carson had a lot of pressure from defensive lines, but like I said in my first reply here - Carson has a quick release and he think fasts. This is actually one of the main reasons I think Carson could be the best QB in the league one day.

DragonFireKai
04-11-2008, 02:22 AM
1) Carson: The best combination of Talent, Experience, and age out of the choices.

2) Quinn: I was very high on Quinn coming out of college. He's still very young, and very talented.

3) Anderson: I was one of roughly two people who called Anderson being a successful starter in the NFL. He'll always have a fairly high INT total, but he'll also throw a ton of TDs with them.

4) Roethlisberger: To be honest, I'm shocked he's still a functional human being. He gets sacked once every 10 drop backs. That's not including his rushing attempts and times he gets knocked down. He'll give you a few good years, but he's become a concussion case pretty soon.

5) Batch: functional starter.

6) McNair: functional mentor.

7) Smith: stop gap QB

8) Boller: functional backup.

PalmerToCJ
04-11-2008, 01:26 PM
Dude... I used to despise Big Ben and think he was extremely overrated but last year he proved he can bring it. So obviously I'm not an apologist.

Anyway, Anderson has had ONE good year (in which he bombed in the end). For anyone to want him over Ben - long or short term - is just out there. Too many times I've seen the Bengals actually generate a pass rush only to have Ben escape it. The guys mobility, IMO, is his best asset.

Can't believe I'm taking up for him lol.

LonghornsLegend
04-11-2008, 05:15 PM
But Brady Quinn is better then Big Ben, the Quinn who has never taken a snap in a real nfl game...He must of been excellent in that pre season lmao.

DragonFireKai
04-11-2008, 08:41 PM
But Brady Quinn is better then Big Ben, the Quinn who has never taken a snap in a real nfl game...He must of been excellent in that pre season lmao.

I'm doing it based off the prospect of looking for the long term. Ben Roethlisberger has already had multiple concussions, and being thrown behind a brand new team a la the Texans isn't going to help him there. It's not that he's not a good player, I just don't think he'd survive a situation like that. I thought Quinn and Anderson were going to be starter quality QBs in the NFL when they came out of college, and they have significantly less wear and tear than Roethlisberger. Once you've had a major concussion, you become more and more prone to have another. Ben's already had two major concusions, and lord knows how many minor ones by now, add on top of that the other numerous injuries he's suffered, and I don't think he's going to be an effective starter for more than 2 or 3 more years at the rate he's getting knocked down. I'd rather have a functional starter who'll still be playing in 4 years when the team is built up, than a good starter who'll be slurring his speech in 4 years.

Mr. Stiller
04-12-2008, 12:20 AM
I'm doing it based off the prospect of looking for the long term. Ben Roethlisberger has already had multiple concussions, and being thrown behind a brand new team a la the Texans isn't going to help him there. It's not that he's not a good player, I just don't think he'd survive a situation like that. I thought Quinn and Anderson were going to be starter quality QBs in the NFL when they came out of college, and they have significantly less wear and tear than Roethlisberger. Once you've had a major concussion, you become more and more prone to have another. Ben's already had two major concusions, and lord knows how many minor ones by now, add on top of that the other numerous injuries he's suffered, and I don't think he's going to be an effective starter for more than 2 or 3 more years at the rate he's getting knocked down. I'd rather have a functional starter who'll still be playing in 4 years when the team is built up, than a good starter who'll be slurring his speech in 4 years.

Um.

Ben has had 2 Concussions. 1 was from an illegal hit in Atlanta that the refs convieniently didn't call, and the other was a Car. I really don't see any type of pattern.

Add the fact if your talking about putting him behind Houstons OL. Why would you even consider Palmer, Anderson or Quinn, None of those guys have Bens Escapability and ability to make something out of nothing.

Add to the fact that if you put those 4 behind a "Houston" OL Ben is probably the Only one to make it to Game 4.

LonghornsLegend
04-12-2008, 12:26 AM
I'm doing it based off the prospect of looking for the long term. Ben Roethlisberger has already had multiple concussions, and being thrown behind a brand new team a la the Texans isn't going to help him there. It's not that he's not a good player, I just don't think he'd survive a situation like that. I thought Quinn and Anderson were going to be starter quality QBs in the NFL when they came out of college, and they have significantly less wear and tear than Roethlisberger. Once you've had a major concussion, you become more and more prone to have another. Ben's already had two major concusions, and lord knows how many minor ones by now, add on top of that the other numerous injuries he's suffered, and I don't think he's going to be an effective starter for more than 2 or 3 more years at the rate he's getting knocked down. I'd rather have a functional starter who'll still be playing in 4 years when the team is built up, than a good starter who'll be slurring his speech in 4 years.


You usually make alot of great post that I enjoy, but its just ignorant to place Brady Quinn above Big Ben, plain ignorant...Quinn wasnt even drafted as high as Big Ben was, so what has he actually accomplished other then being a 1st rd pick? Why would you even include a ranking system with one qb who hasnt taken a snap yet vs one who has had very good seasons and won a super bowl?

Bengalsrocket
04-12-2008, 12:38 AM
Um.

Ben has had 2 Concussions. 1 was from an illegal hit in Atlanta that the refs convieniently didn't call, and the other was a Car. I really don't see any type of pattern.

Add the fact if your talking about putting him behind Houstons OL. Why would you even consider Palmer, Anderson or Quinn, None of those guys have Bens Escapability and ability to make something out of nothing.

Add to the fact that if you put those 4 behind a "Houston" OL Ben is probably the Only one to make it to Game 4.

You've just proven how little you pay attention to other QB's in the AFC north. Do you honestly think cincinnati has some sick-awesome great line, especially with 2 of our best offensive linemen injured? Carson had 17 sacks because 1) he has a quick release & 2) He makes quick decisions (although, not always the most intelligent - 20 INT =/). Ben avoids the rush with his legs, and he's really good at it. but carson avoids the rush too, he just does it with his arm.

DragonFireKai
04-12-2008, 05:13 AM
Um.

Ben has had 2 Concussions. 1 was from an illegal hit in Atlanta that the refs convieniently didn't call, and the other was a Car. I really don't see any type of pattern.

Concussions stack. Each concussion makes you more likely to have another. and makes the effects of the next one worse. Furthermore, concussions destroy more QBs careers than any other injury. I'd rather have my QB have Carson Palmer's O'Donahugh Triad than Ben's Concussions. It doesn't matter how you get your concussions, weather it's from a car or illegal hit, it's unimportant because the damage is already done. A few more concussions, and he'll wind up like Al Toon, where he'll sneeze and forget the last week.

Add the fact if your talking about putting him behind Houstons OL. Why would you even consider Palmer, Anderson or Quinn, None of those guys have Bens Escapability and ability to make something out of nothing.

Add to the fact that if you put those 4 behind a "Houston" OL Ben is probably the Only one to make it to Game 4.

It doesn't matter who you stick behind an expansion O-Line. They're going to get sacked. Ben already has had 146 sacks, Palmer only has 97, Derek Anderson only has 22, Brady Quinn has none. None of the other three have any major injury concerns. Roethlisberger has 2 major concussions, and numerous other minor injuries.

You also forget that Roethlisberger brings alot of those sacks on himself, by hanging onto the ball to long. In 404 attempts, he was sacked 47 times. 10.4% of his pass attempts ended with him getting sacked, that's not counting all the times he gets hit as he releases, or the hits he takes running the ball. He's taking a running back calibur beating, and that's not what a teams needs when it's building for the future. Behind the same Oline, Charlie Batch attempted 37 passes. Roethlisberger would have been sacked nearly 4 times in that span. Batch never got touched. Roethlisberger always gets sacked more often that the other QBs on the Steelers, who thanks to the injuries those sacks incur, always get enough snaps to make a good analysis.

You usually make alot of great post that I enjoy, but its just ignorant to place Brady Quinn above Big Ben, plain ignorant...Quinn wasnt even drafted as high as Big Ben was, so what has he actually accomplished other then being a 1st rd pick? Why would you even include a ranking system with one qb who hasnt taken a snap yet vs one who has had very good seasons and won a super bowl?

Well, I think Quinn has a lot of potential. And some people agree with me. Scott Wright said that Quinn was one of the top 4 QB prospects he's ever seen. Quinn also doesn't have Roethlisberger's history of injuries. Which is paramount when starting a new team. Every player is going to take a massive beating, and if they're already fragile, they aren't going to make it. You could have Rod Woodson and Deon Sanders in their prime, but if they're both on IR, you're better off with Jason David.

And you can't simply compare draft position like that. It's a different class, and teams had different needs.

WinslowEdwards19
04-13-2008, 12:03 PM
This isn't even close.. Carson is by far and away the best in the AFC North.. It's not his fault his defense is god awful, compared to Benny's.

Derek Anderson is pretty solid too.. He has a lot of potential..

EdReedUnstoppable
05-04-2008, 01:38 AM
I had to vote for Carson because the guy I'd take over any of them wasn't available.........

JOE FLACCO!!!

BamaFalcon59
05-10-2008, 12:02 PM
Carson is more fundamentally sound then any other QB in the league imo. He's got a great arm, very good accuracy, quick release and great footwork. Had he not gotten his knee destroyed its very possible cincinnati went to the SB that year.

Big Ben has the ring, but that doesn't make him the best. Is Chad and TJ a better WR tandem than Ward / Holmes? Yes. But I think its clear Big Ben has the better D to get him the ball more often and the better running game to compliment him.

People act like Big Ben was some stud when he went to the SB. They basically just ran the ball every play that year, and only asked him to pull it off when it was in favor of the passing game.

Carson has the pressure to pass on more downs than big ben, and thus makes more mistakes. Heres a break down:

Starting @ 04 -

Big Ben:

04, 295 attempts
05, 268 attempts
06, 469 attempts
07, 404 attempts

total = 1436
Carson:

04, 432 attempts
05, 509 attempts
06, 520 attempts
07, 575 attempts

total = 2036

Its not even a comparison how little big ben is needed in pitts verse how much carson is needed in cincinnati. Being surrounded by a great team does not make you a better player.

And the season where he had the most attempts is also the one he struggled the most in.

BamaFalcon59
05-10-2008, 12:10 PM
I clearly listed the Passing Attempts... and remarked to the fact that if Big Ben threw as many times as Carson did... his stats would be better and he would have thrown 45 TDs ?!?! Big Ben threw a TD on average of every 12.6 throws... Carson ???... every 22 throws... so if the production came down to numbers Big Ben is going to blow him away.. but if you look at leadership.. Ok Hines Ward is probably a better leader than Ocho Cinco... but if you took Big Ben and moved him to a different Team and put an average QB in there like a Jake Delhomme or Jon Kitna you think that Pittsburgh is going to do just as well because of the system ? If thats the case than your saying anyone can win in Pittsburgh ?? I can't agree with that statement... Big Ben is a young Brett Favre and Carson is more like Mark Rypien !!! If Rypien wouldnt have had the great players around him he would have never won a Super Bowl...

Did you know that if you give Jerious Norwood twenty carries a game it comes out to 1984 yards? 1984 is also the name of a movie. Damn he must be good. He'd be a great feature back wouldn't he? If you give him the same amount of carries that Larry Johnson had in 2006 he averages out to 2,579 yards, easily breaking the rushing record. WOW!

Too bad Norwood is not that type of back, he is best when he can take advantage of the defense being tierd, just like Roethlisberger is at best when he is off of playaction from the running game.

GrandChamp13
05-10-2008, 12:16 PM
HOW is Carson higher in the voting? :confused:
He has had a great line (2-3 probowlers), a great RB(probowl 1500yds consistantly), and Great Recievers (both probowlers) throughout his career. NO Superbowl Either!!!!!
20 INTs last year. Ben threw 23 when he was plagued by injurues all year but other than that he was 98 passer-rating or higher every year.

Ben has had a O-Line who cant protect him, and decent recievers. If not for the running game he mite be getting hit every play.
What QB goes undefeated his rookie regular season? Then wins the superbowl next year? He made the probowl team this year and put up better numbers than any QB not named Tom Brady. He is obviously a special QB.

I'm startin to think guys on here just don't kno what they're talkin bout

BengalMedic
05-12-2008, 06:58 AM
Don't get me wrong because Big Ben has been good by me since playing at Miami of Ohio, but he has also had a dominant defense to support him as well. He has had WR's to throw to and a running game. The o-line he has had can hardly be called anything but solid, if not better. The last Super Bowl the Steelers won was "In spite" of the play from Big Ben. Once again, I am a fan, but if the Steelers lost that game, it would have been solely from the poor play of Big Ben.

As for Carson, let him have the advantage of something as decent as a #15 defense and see what happens. He's had to go out and play knowing the defense backing him was always one of the worst or THE WORST. Just pointing that out...

StripedWalrus
05-12-2008, 12:52 PM
HOW is Carson higher in the voting? :confused:
He has had a great line (2-3 probowlers), a great RB(probowl 1500yds consistantly), and Great Recievers (both probowlers) throughout his career. NO Superbowl Either!!!!!
20 INTs last year. Ben threw 23 when he was plagued by injurues all year but other than that he was 98 passer-rating or higher every year.

Ben has had a O-Line who cant protect him, and decent recievers. If not for the running game he mite be getting hit every play.
What QB goes undefeated his rookie regular season? Then wins the superbowl next year? He made the probowl team this year and put up better numbers than any QB not named Tom Brady. He is obviously a special QB.

I'm startin to think guys on here just don't kno what they're talkin bout

Im startin to think you don't know what your talking about.

Last year Carson Palmer's Oline was plagued with injuries. He had no run game at all and the defense had Carson throwing all day because they couldn't keep points off the board.

BTW Big Ben didn't get his team to the superbowl by himself. A good oline and good defense got them there. Not him.

GrandChamp13
05-13-2008, 04:14 PM
Im startin to think you don't know what your talking about.

Last year Carson Palmer's Oline was plagued with injuries. He had no run game at all and the defense had Carson throwing all day because they couldn't keep points off the board.

BTW Big Ben didn't get his team to the superbowl by himself. A good oline and good defense got them there. Not him.

Pittsburghs Oline was plagued with injuries... 45+ sacks not to mention how many sacks Big Ben escaped from.
Bengals Oline gave up how many sacks??? it was well under 30
So don't give me that crap

Cinci averaged 97 yards rushing per game which is a lot more than no running game.

HOW in the world r u gonna blame their offensive woes on poor defense. That makes Zero sense... Peyton Manning and the Colts had no problems putting up points when they had the worst D in the League year in and year out.

Big Ben most definately got his team to the SB. Look at his games against the Bengals, Broncos, and Colts. They came out passing and played very well. Ben did not rely on the running game or the Defense to put up points. He did it himself.

He did have a poor game against the Seahawks. I won't argue that. But he was the youngest QB ever to win a SB.

BamaFalcon59
05-13-2008, 08:29 PM
Pittsburghs Oline was plagued with injuries... 45+ sacks not to mention how many sacks Big Ben escaped from.
Bengals Oline gave up how many sacks??? it was well under 30
So don't give me that crap

Cinci averaged 97 yards rushing per game which is a lot more than no running game.

HOW in the world r u gonna blame their offensive woes on poor defense. That makes Zero sense... Peyton Manning and the Colts had no problems putting up points when they had the worst D in the League year in and year out.

Big Ben most definately got his team to the SB. Look at his games against the Bengals, Broncos, and Colts. They came out passing and played very well. Ben did not rely on the running game or the Defense to put up points. He did it himself.

He did have a poor game against the Seahawks. I won't argue that. But he was the youngest QB ever to win a SB.

Roethlisburger may escape some sacks, but he also holds on to the ball to long and causes many of them.

BengalMedic
05-14-2008, 11:54 AM
That Super Bowl was won IN SPITE of Big Ben. Nothing more, nothing less. I say this as a fan of Big Ben since his Miami of Ohio days, so I don't want to hear it. He may be the youngest QB to win the Super Bowl, but he needs to thank his defense for that. Oh by the way, he also posted the lowest QB rating in Super Bowl history as well.

Smooth Criminal
05-14-2008, 06:42 PM
If it wasnt for ben the steelers never make the superbowl. Look at the playoff games leading up to the superbowl. He played great and threw the ball to put up points early and let the run game protect the lead. Your team has to throw the ball more when you are losing. Ever think the fact that he's efficent in the first half and gets a lead could cut his attempts?

And add that to the season he had last year and I'll take him over any other a QB in this division. Let's see Carson play without CJ this year. I'm expecting his productivity to drop.

As to Anderson, let's see him do it again. Many QBs have good first years because defenses don't know how to play them. If he has another year like this year I'll buy that he is more than just an above average QB.

themaninblack
05-14-2008, 06:53 PM
Is this really argument anymore as to who the better QB is between Big Ben and Carson? Carson may have Pro Bowl WR's and Pro Bowl OL(oft injured) but he doesn't have the one thing that means the most: A DEFENSE. Without a defense he has done better than Ben in almost every category throughout his career. This past season was terrible on all fronts and he still managed to have a somewhat decent season. And don't even give me the Super Bowl argument at all. What was his Passer Rating in that game? How many throws did he average a game that season? Exactly, he was a game manager. I will admit he has grown into a much better overall player but he walked into a perfect situation when he was a rookie and during the Super Bowl run.

Carson has always been asked to do much more than Ben has and he has been very successful for the most part.

d34ng3l021
05-14-2008, 07:16 PM
Give me Carson Palmer. He may be 2 years older than Roethlisberger, but is a top3 passing QB. Great arm (amazing deep ball), good accuracy, great footwork and release, great leadership.

Smooth Criminal
05-14-2008, 09:19 PM
Carson is so overrated at this point. Great leadership? Is that even worth explaining why that's not true? He has no control. His #1 wr hates him and he can't lead at team to anything. And those 20 ints show great accuracy.

Carson palmer will never win a superbowl. Hell he probably won't ever win a playoff game. He'll have another below average season and people will finally realise how overrated he is.

BeerBaron
05-14-2008, 09:24 PM
came down to ben and carson for me...i went ben because superbowl rings do talk and he has been overall move impressive i think.

cant go wrong with carson though either

d34ng3l021
05-14-2008, 09:25 PM
His number 1 WR is a ***** who doesnt realize what an amazing situation he is in. Thats what who number 1 WR is.

And are you honestly going to point to the number of his interceptions for his accuracy? They cant be dropped balls or bad decisions? How about trying to catch up to the other team because his defense sucks balls? No. He probably missed the guy he was trying to get by 5 yards and a defender picked it off.

GB12
05-14-2008, 09:31 PM
Carson palmer will never win a superbowl. Hell he probably won't ever win a playoff game. He'll have another below average season and people will finally realise how overrated he is.
Except that he's never had a below average season. 2007 was the first above average season that Roethlisberger has had.

Smooth Criminal
05-14-2008, 09:37 PM
20 ints is not below average? Sure.

And while that was bens most productive year, it was also the only season he was actually given control of the offense and stayed healthy.

Ben will outplay palmer again this season. Mark it down

themaninblack
05-15-2008, 12:19 AM
Carson is so overrated at this point. Great leadership? Is that even worth explaining why that's not true? He has no control. His #1 wr hates him and he can't lead at team to anything. And those 20 ints show great accuracy.

Carson palmer will never win a superbowl. Hell he probably won't ever win a playoff game. He'll have another below average season and people will finally realise how overrated he is.

Carson Palmer will actually WIN a Super Bowl instead of being the 3rd coming of Trent Dilfer.

d34ng3l021
05-15-2008, 12:24 AM
If it wasnt for ben the steelers never make the superbowl. Look at the playoff games leading up to the superbowl. He played great and threw the ball to put up points early and let the run game protect the lead. Your team has to throw the ball more when you are losing. Ever think the fact that he's efficent in the first half and gets a lead could cut his attempts?

And add that to the season he had last year and I'll take him over any other a QB in this division. Let's see Carson play without CJ this year. I'm expecting his productivity to drop.

As to Anderson, let's see him do it again. Many QBs have good first years because defenses don't know how to play them. If he has another year like this year I'll buy that he is more than just an above average QB.

lol ever think efficient isnt enough? ever think he never had to throw to win games? ever think he defense held the opponents to low scores and the run game took over? ever see the steelers record when big ben attempts 30+ passes a game before his last season?

roethlisberger only showed of becoming a franchise QB this last year, where he was spectacular. palmer has been doing it since the year he started.

BengalMedic
05-15-2008, 07:43 AM
#1. I never made mention that Ben didn't lead his team through the playoffs and yes, he played very well.
#2. Yes, Ben had the lowest passer rating for a QB in Super Bowl history.
#3. Yes, Ben has had a STELLAR defense all these years (See #1 rated defense last season)
#4. Yes, Ben walked into a great situation where the Steelers has a running game, a WR corps, and a super defense. Wow, must of been rough for him...
#5. I'm not arguing who the better QB is, because I am a fan of BOTH.

All of that being said, Ben is and has been in a better situation as a starting QB since the day he got into Pittsburgh. That's not a slap on him, just an observation. He never had to be the one person the team relied upon to rebuild the team. Carson is still waiting.

I all honesty, I think there are a handful of QBs in the league right now, if placed in the same situation that Ben was placed in (run game, WR's, great defense) would probably end up in the Super Bowl as well.

Be honest and stop being such a blind homer... It's nothing more than giving credit where credit is due, but in my opinion that credit belongs mostly to the Steelers organization as a whole for having better than average drafts and having great coaching and ownership. Ben is a product of their hard work and I am happy for him, but please don't argue that he was SOOOOO GREAT in that Super Bowl game. I'm a fan of his and as a fan I am more than ok saying he sucks great big monkey balls in that game and had they lost, he would have been the sole reason...

Smooth Criminal
05-15-2008, 03:59 PM
No one has ever said he played anything better than awful in the superbowl.

And i hate when people discredit ben because of his good team. No one ever takes away from Brady and manning for their great supporting casts.

Even with the best supporting cast the qb still has to execute. Maddox had the same situation as ben the year before ben was drafted and he went 6-10.

Ben will have had a better career when its all said and done.

vidae
05-15-2008, 04:59 PM
Carson Palmer, 10 times out of 10. No question in my mind.

I could rehash every argument that has already been said, but there is no point. Carson Palmer is the better QB, and he will not only win a playoff game, but if they fix that defense (which it looks like they're doing) he'll win a superbowl, not just manage one.

themaninblack
05-15-2008, 06:35 PM
Ben will have had a better career when its all said and done.

agree to disagree. It really is a treat to watch them go up against each other twice a year.

BengalMedic
05-16-2008, 07:43 AM
No one has ever said he played anything better than awful in the superbowl.

And i hate when people discredit ben because of his good team. No one ever takes away from Brady and manning for their great supporting casts.

Even with the best supporting cast the qb still has to execute. Maddox had the same situation as ben the year before ben was drafted and he went 6-10.

Ben will have had a better career when its all said and done.

In response to the bolded area... I'm not "discrediting" Ben because of his supporting cast, I'm just making an OBVIOUS observation that his situation is FAR different than that of most other QB's (and Carson) in that he walked into a great situation. Ben is a very good QB and yes, you still need to execute in order to win.

That being said, was Dilfer that great of a QB when Baltimore won the Super Bowl ?? NO. As a matter of fact, most people think he sucks. FACT is that great defenses have a HUGE impact on their respective QBs. If your defense can keep the opposition from scoring, it allows the QB more opportunites and for young QB's, it's a gift from heaven (See Ben)...

Brady and Manning are ELITE quarterbacks and while I think both Ben and Carson are very good, neither one would be considered elite in my book. That may change, but I just can't say it at this time. Once again, I am a fan of both QB's, so don't let the fact that I am a Bengals fan make you twist stuff into your own perspective...

dcarey20
05-17-2008, 02:35 PM
I realize Ben has had more team success recently, but for me, it's Carson. I fear going against Carson more than any other quarterback in the division and I believe he's the best.

Smooth Criminal
05-18-2008, 05:23 PM
In response to the bolded area... I'm not "discrediting" Ben because of his supporting cast, I'm just making an OBVIOUS observation that his situation is FAR different than that of most other QB's (and Carson) in that he walked into a great situation. Ben is a very good QB and yes, you still need to execute in order to win.

That being said, was Dilfer that great of a QB when Baltimore won the Super Bowl ?? NO. As a matter of fact, most people think he sucks. FACT is that great defenses have a HUGE impact on their respective QBs. If your defense can keep the opposition from scoring, it allows the QB more opportunites and for young QB's, it's a gift from heaven (See Ben)...

Brady and Manning are ELITE quarterbacks and while I think both Ben and Carson are very good, neither one would be considered elite in my book. That may change, but I just can't say it at this time. Once again, I am a fan of both QB's, so don't let the fact that I am a Bengals fan make you twist stuff into your own perspective...

Theres always the Trent Dilfer argument and that worked well for Ben's first two years where I think everyone will agree he wasn't asked to do nearly all the things most QBs have to do.

But Trent Dilfer never had a season like the one Ben had last year. Ben played amazing last year and was the reason we had 10 wins. With one of the worst lines I have ever seen from a Steelers team Ben had his best season. He completely ran the offense. Another year in the new system and added talent, Ben should do even better.

After they're both done, people will regard Ben as a better QB.

Smooth Criminal
05-18-2008, 05:25 PM
agree to disagree. It really is a treat to watch them go up against each other twice a year.

People will finally realise the North has some of the most talent in the league. We like to beat the hell out of each other every year but the North is easily one of the strongest divisions in the league. All 4 teams are stacked with talent.

Seems weird saying 4. I'm used to writing off the Browns.

BengalMedic
05-28-2008, 07:46 AM
Theres always the Trent Dilfer argument and that worked well for Ben's first two years where I think everyone will agree he wasn't asked to do nearly all the things most QBs have to do.

But Trent Dilfer never had a season like the one Ben had last year. Ben played amazing last year and was the reason we had 10 wins. With one of the worst lines I have ever seen from a Steelers team Ben had his best season. He completely ran the offense. Another year in the new system and added talent, Ben should do even better.

After they're both done, people will regard Ben as a better QB.

Sorry, out of the loop last week in Vegas... I agree with your post. I will say however, that I see the Big Ben / Carson debate going along the lines of the Brady / Manning debate. In the end, the QB that had the better team built around him will come out ahead and at this time, that would be Ben. If the Bengals ever build a mid level defense and (God willing) win a Super Bowl, this debate could easily swing the other way.

WinslowEdwards19
09-12-2008, 05:48 PM
Carson, he is the golden boy, and in my mind a lot more talented than Big Benjamin.

Hines
09-12-2008, 06:02 PM
You really cant go wrong with either Big Ben or Carson. I chose Ben because I am a homer and I love how he can make plays with his feet and his arm while Carson cant. Ben is a game manager, game breaker, and a play maker. Carson does have top notch tools of the quarterback position and he is a top 5 quarterback, but I think Ben is better. But if they were to switch teams, I wouldnt mind Carson on the Steelers, same as Bengal fans would like Ben on their team.

PoopSandwich
09-14-2008, 02:47 AM
Roethlisberger no hesitation.

Bruce Banner
09-14-2008, 02:48 AM
The third best QB in the league.

ChefMike
02-26-2009, 08:33 AM
Ok I will take the lumps for not adding Joe Flacco in there at the beginning of last season. But I will still put Big Ben ahead of Carson... and I hope all the Bungals fans aren't still beating the carson palmer drum???

coordinator0
03-02-2009, 06:28 PM
I'd take Flacco lol. Looks like it's time for a new thread...

Loggerhead
03-05-2009, 12:12 AM
Big Ben has 2 rings. The rest of the QB's in the AFC North have none. 'Nuff said.

j05son
03-05-2009, 12:42 AM
Big Ben has 2 rings. The rest of the QB's in the AFC North have none. 'Nuff said.

Don't worry, this topic isn't old or anything, it wasn't created when BigBen only had one.

Oh,



wat?

ChefMike
03-06-2009, 01:34 PM
Don't worry, this topic isn't old or anything, it wasn't created when BigBen only had one.

Oh,



wat?

Oh come on.. like the defense didn't have anything to do with the 1st one and the 2nd one?!

Bengals78
03-08-2009, 01:58 PM
if everything about the teams were equal, line, receivers, backs and D, I would take Carson by a hair, just because I like his style more. I wouldnt exactly be upset with Ben tho.

banetzdererste
04-16-2009, 01:42 AM
I pick BigBen, because he is young, proven and a Superbowl Winner!

He can drive my Team to success