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View Full Version : Anybody else hear this about Matt Ryan on NFL Live?


kmartin575
04-08-2008, 01:59 AM
Somebody made the following post on a Chiefs messageboard:

"Both McShay and Kiper just said on NFL live that if both players were available in the '08 draft, they'd both draft Matt Ryan before JaMarcus Russell."

Anybody else hear this? Thoughts?

Geo
04-08-2008, 02:08 AM
I don't buy that at all, personally. Just another reason why I try to avoid hearing anything McShay and Kiper Jr. have to say, I'm not interested.

I'd also take Brady Quinn over both Russell and Ryan, for what it's worth. :shrug:

WMD
04-08-2008, 02:13 AM
Whoa.. what?? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!

kmartin575
04-08-2008, 02:13 AM
Not sure about it either but I can see their reasoning for it. IMO Jamarcus Russell looked far better than he really was with guys like Dwayne Bowe, Craig Davis, and Early Doucet to throw the ball to. He could pretty much just lob the ball up and one of them would get it. I think if Matt Ryan had the receivers that Russell did at LSU he would have put up over 40 touchdowns.

I also seem to remember LSU fans saying Russell never really locked down the starting quarterback spot until late in his career at LSU. I believe they said he was always in competition for the starting job early in his first couple of years at LSU.

Turtlepower
04-08-2008, 02:13 AM
I would take Ryan over Russell. I feel that Russell wowed way too many people with him being able to throw the ball 60 yards on his ass.

kmartin575
04-08-2008, 02:14 AM
Whoa.. what?? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!

And why is that? I'm not sure I agree but it is still debateable. Like I said in my post above, Russell certainly benefited from having the best receiving corps in college football. I think they made him look better than what he really was. He has a strong arm for sure but so do Kyle Boller and Brodie Croyle.

BlindSite
04-08-2008, 02:27 AM
I can smell the raiders homers and their tears of rage coming from a mile away.

I agree, Ryan is hands down a better prospect than Russel was a year ago.

LonghornsLegend
04-08-2008, 02:34 AM
Regardless of what anyone on here personally thinks of Russell, Matt Ryan would not be drafted ahead of him...Put Matt Ryan in that same draft and he's a 2nd round pick so it makes no sense to say otherwise...Quinn wasnt sniffed until he hit the 20's, If Miami passed up Quinn they would of passed up Ryan also, and nowhere in between would anyone of been excited over what Matt Ryan has to offer.


Even if Russell did get overhyped or whatever you want to call it, physically him and Ryan arent even close, nor are they close in potential or upside...If McShay does feel that way so be it, but no NFL teams agree with him on that.

LonghornsLegend
04-08-2008, 02:35 AM
I can smell the raiders homers and their tears of rage coming from a mile away.

I agree, Ryan is hands down a better prospect than Russel was a year ago.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black:rolleyes:...Your telling me that Brady Quinn can drop to 22, yet Matt Ryan would be the #1 overall pick that year?

ChezPower4
04-08-2008, 02:38 AM
Russell has the sooo much upside. Matt Ryan has very limited upside IMO he does have great intangibles but he does not have a killer arm that Cutler or Russell have. I think that Ryan is more NFL ready but i don't think that he will ever be a pro bowl QB and i think that Russell can be.

About todd McShay and Mel Kiper i think you have to take everything they say with a grain of salt.

kmartin575
04-08-2008, 02:53 AM
Russell has the sooo much upside. Matt Ryan has very limited upside IMO he does have great intangibles but he does not have a killer arm that Cutler or Russell have. I think that Ryan is more NFL ready but i don't think that he will ever be a pro bowl QB and i think that Russell can be.

About todd McShay and Mel Kiper i think you have to take everything they say with a grain of salt.

IMO guys like Tom Brady, Matt Hasselbeck, Drew Brees, and Marc Bulger aren't anymore impressive than Ryan physically yet all have made the pro bowl.

IMO arm strength is overrated. Between a quarterback with great arm strength but questionable intangibles and leadership or the quarterback with merely adequate arm strength but excellent intangibles and great leadership and I will take the 2nd option every time.

Addict
04-08-2008, 03:01 AM
I'm not sure that their move made sense, but I cannot agree or disagree with their statement as of now. I never really got on the Russell bandwagon, I don't trust his intangibles enough, but to say he was the better physical specimen I agree. Ryan seems to have his head screwed on right.

Mr. Stiller
04-08-2008, 03:37 AM
Regardless of what anyone on here personally thinks of Russell, Matt Ryan would not be drafted ahead of him...Put Matt Ryan in that same draft and he's a 2nd round pick so it makes no sense to say otherwise...Quinn wasnt sniffed until he hit the 20's, If Miami passed up Quinn they would of passed up Ryan also, and nowhere in between would anyone of been excited over what Matt Ryan has to offer.


Even if Russell did get overhyped or whatever you want to call it, physically him and Ryan arent even close, nor are they close in potential or upside...If McShay does feel that way so be it, but no NFL teams agree with him on that.

The difference is.. the Hype put Russell at #1.

The hype can't justify Ryan being a top 5 pick.

Therefore... Russell > Ryan.

Quinn and Ryan would be a much better debate. I take Quinn though. He had better WR's, but worse RB's/OL to work with. And a tougher schedule.

Mr. Stiller
04-08-2008, 03:38 AM
IMO guys like Tom Brady, Matt Hasselbeck, Drew Brees, and Marc Bulger aren't anymore impressive than Ryan physically yet all have made the pro bowl.

IMO arm strength is overrated. Between a quarterback with great arm strength but questionable intangibles and leadership or the quarterback with merely adequate arm strength but excellent intangibles and great leadership and I will take the 2nd option every time.

Ryan doesn't have any of that. His mechanics are pretty sound, but his accuracy, arm strength, and leadership are questionable.

kmartin575
04-08-2008, 03:40 AM
The difference is.. the Hype put Russell at #1.

The hype can't justify Ryan being a top 5 pick.

Therefore... Russell > Ryan.

Quinn and Ryan would be a much better debate. I take Quinn though. He had better WR's, but worse RB's/OL to work with. And a tougher schedule.

Russll > Ryan as far as where they are drafted but I'm not so sure I agree as far as how their careers will turn out.

kmartin575
04-08-2008, 03:42 AM
Ryan doesn't have any of that. His mechanics are pretty sound, but his accuracy, arm strength, and leadership are questionable.

I don't see how his leadership is questionable.

And his arm strength really isn't any more questionable than those guys I listed. Like I said, arm strength is overrated IMO. You don't want a noodle arm like Chad Pennington but I don't believe Ryan is anywhere close to the horrible arm Pennington has.

Scott Wright
04-08-2008, 03:47 AM
I don't think I agree but it's a debate at least. Definitely not crazy outlandish or absurd.

Mr. Stiller
04-08-2008, 03:54 AM
I don't see how his leadership is questionable.

And his arm strength really isn't any more questionable than those guys I listed. Like I said, arm strength is overrated IMO. You don't want a noodle arm like Chad Pennington but I don't believe Ryan is anywhere close to the horrible arm Pennington has.

Agreed, but it's not elite. I mean, he doesn't have Favre like Velocity or Roethlisberger/Russell cannons.

Mr. Stiller
04-08-2008, 03:55 AM
Russll > Ryan as far as where they are drafted but I'm not so sure I agree as far as how their careers will turn out.

I don't know. I mean, it's hard to believe anyone would succeed in Oakland until Al Davis retires.

But in equal playing ground I think Russell would be the better QB.

Frankly I still believe Brohm is the best QB in this class now with Josh Johnson having the highest upside.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-08-2008, 04:02 AM
I agree that it is not at all an outlandish claim. Whether they were legitimate or not (we have yet to find out), there were concerns about Russell's work ethic, football intelligence, and general dedication. People questioned how he would react with 30+ million dollars essentially in the bank. Although this may be a simplification, there lie no such concerns with Matt Ryan. The levels upon which Russell was questioned are so vital to success at the quarterback position that they could not be ignored nor written off.

Everyone has their own opinions on quarterback, and it becomes much easier to ignore Russell's rather impressive tool set when it isn't staring you directly in the face, as it was last year. I question whether any of the people saying this would have actually done so were Ryan in last year's draft, but I suppose that is of no real consequence. However, it is not by chance that people tend to be much more discerning about prospects when they are a year removed (especially after being able to see them function as rookies), nor is it by chance that the promise (aka unknown nature) this year's crop always tends to look a little better.

I think Russell has some very real pluses over Ryan beyond simply size and arm strength, just as Ryan has some of his own. I would rate Ryan ahead of Brady Quinn at this point, but my own personal preference would dictate that Ryan is distinctly behind JaMarcus Russell, whether they were in the same class or not. That said, I was a bigger fan of Russell than a lot of people last year.

Abaddon
04-08-2008, 04:21 AM
I can smell the raiders homers and their tears of rage coming from a mile away.

I agree, Ryan is hands down a better prospect than Russel was a year ago.
Didn't think Russell was all that great coming out, and he's got a long way to go before he changes that perception. So, be sure to recognize that not every Raider fan is an idiot homer.

JagHombre22
04-08-2008, 04:48 AM
Russell looked very lost and confused last season when he played...but the could be the result of missing a **** load of offseason time with his stupid holdout or that could be the result of the competition he was facing?

I would also take Ryan over Russell but just because I think Ryan will have a better career.

eaglesalltheway
04-08-2008, 06:35 AM
The difference is.. the Hype put Russell at #1.

The hype can't justify Ryan being a top 5 pick.

Therefore... Russell > Ryan.

Quinn and Ryan would be a much better debate. I take Quinn though. He had better WR's, but worse RB's/OL to work with. And a tougher schedule.

I agree with all of that 100%, and think that Russell is a better PROSPECT, no question, though it is close. Quinn and Ryan are closer, but I still think Quinn was a better prospect.

Matthew Jones
04-08-2008, 07:22 AM
The difference is.. the Hype put Russell at #1.

The hype can't justify Ryan being a top 5 pick.

Therefore... Russell > Ryan.

Quinn and Ryan would be a much better debate. I take Quinn though. He had better WR's, but worse RB's/OL to work with. And a tougher schedule.

Darius Walker was better than Andre Callender, and Ryan Harris in college was better than Gosder Cherilus (albeit not as a pro prospect.) Notre Dame also had John Sullivan, etc. Plus, the improvement in wide receivers and tight ends is absolutely massive. I'd take Ryan over Quinn, probably, but it's close.

AgentM
04-08-2008, 07:44 AM
I think the past two years have been really weak in terms of 'elite' QB talent. I still don't understand how Russell became the #1 pick in the draft last year after torching a horrible ND defense in the Sugar Bowl.

I also don't understand how Ryan is being considered as a top 5 pick this year by some. He looks like he has the tools to be a solid QB in the league, but picking him ahead of guys like Dorsey or McFadden??? Really?!?!

That said I guess I'd take Ryan over Russell but I'd prefer to have neither on my team.

eaglesalltheway
04-08-2008, 07:47 AM
I think the past two years have been really weak in terms of 'elite' QB talent. I still don't understand how Russell became the #1 pick in the draft last year after torching a horrible ND defense in the Sugar Bowl.

I also don't understand how Ryan is being considered as a top 5 pick this year by some. He looks like he has the tools to be a solid QB in the league, but picking him ahead of guys like Dorsey or McFadden??? Really?!?!

That said I guess I'd take Ryan over Russell but I'd prefer to have neither on my team.

I'm glad the Eagles aren't in a position to need a QB, because next year isn't looking bright either.

toonsterwu
04-08-2008, 08:54 AM
Next year is flat out ugly. Even if Tebow and Stafford come out, and neither is a guarantee, it still might not be as good as this year's QB class, which is an indictment of that class, not a praise of this one. That said, a long way to go. Maybe a guy like Cullen Harper takes 3 steps forward.

In an environment where I have time, that is a year, or two, I'd take Russell. That said, Ryan is a more developed QB prospect, and his physical tools are much better than this board gives him credit for, and in general, Ryan is a better talent than this board seems to acknowledge (and most boards in general). I still believe that he is a more advanced prospect, and in general, better QB prospect than Quinn was last year and likely would've gone top 10. There's a lot to like about Ryan's value.q

kmartin575
04-08-2008, 09:19 AM
Next year is flat out ugly. Even if Tebow and Stafford come out, and neither is a guarantee, it still might not be as good as this year's QB class, which is an indictment of that class, not a praise of this one. That said, a long way to go. Maybe a guy like Cullen Harper takes 3 steps forward.

In an environment where I have time, that is a year, or two, I'd take Russell. That said, Ryan is a more developed QB prospect, and his physical tools are much better than this board gives him credit for, and in general, Ryan is a better talent than this board seems to acknowledge (and most boards in general). I still believe that he is a more advanced prospect, and in general, better QB prospect than Quinn was last year and likely would've gone top 10. There's a lot to like about Ryan's value.q

I agree next years class could look ugly but give it time. So much will happen by this time next year that several quarterbacks could pop up out of nowhere and live up to their promise.

LonghornsLegend
04-08-2008, 09:22 AM
The difference is.. the Hype put Russell at #1.

The hype can't justify Ryan being a top 5 pick.

Therefore... Russell > Ryan.

Quinn and Ryan would be a much better debate. I take Quinn though. He had better WR's, but worse RB's/OL to work with. And a tougher schedule.

Thats basically my point, Quinn and Ryan make for a much better debate and could probably say they are remotely close, but im almost certain no one touches Matt Ryan in that draft until late 1st rd at the soonest...Quinn seemed like his draft stock was almost higher then Ryan's yet no one felt like he was that great of a talent that they had to pick him when he fell to them...I have no reason to believe if he was in that draft class that Oakland would take him over Russell, or that anyone else in the top 10 would fell suit to take him, which is why I dont understand the comment about him being a better prospect.

Turtlepower
04-08-2008, 09:43 AM
Next year is flat out ugly. Even if Tebow and Stafford come out, and neither is a guarantee, it still might not be as good as this year's QB class, which is an indictment of that class, not a praise of this one. That said, a long way to go. Maybe a guy like Cullen Harper takes 3 steps forward.

Rudy Carpenter will establish himself as the top signal caller this year (I Wish)...

ATLDirtyBirds
04-08-2008, 10:02 AM
I personally much prefer Russell.

Why the Bengals
04-08-2008, 10:06 AM
WHo would you guys have more faith in leading your team?? Who would you have more confidence leading a 2 minute drill? You will lead there team to the playoffs and beyond? Russell may have more power and athleticism, even if he weighs 270.. but IMO Ryan will become the better of the two

SchizophrenicBatman
04-08-2008, 12:06 PM
WHo would you guys have more faith in leading your team?? Who would you have more confidence leading a 2 minute drill? You will lead there team to the playoffs and beyond? Russell may have more power and athleticism, even if he weighs 270.. but IMO Ryan will become the better of the two

See I get this, and I'd prefer Ryan...but you could use that same logic with a lot of workout warriors vs "football players" at most positions

Sometimes it goes one way, sometimes it goes the other. Teams have to make the judgment of how much to weigh one or the other. But it can't be denied, Russell has a very heavy set of raw tools, and he showed plenty of ability to utilize them consistently unlike, say, Kevin O'Connell this year

LonghornsLegend
04-08-2008, 12:09 PM
WHo would you guys have more faith in leading your team?? Who would you have more confidence leading a 2 minute drill? You will lead there team to the playoffs and beyond? Russell may have more power and athleticism, even if he weighs 270.. but IMO Ryan will become the better of the two

Alot of people may feel that way, but that does not mean Ryan would be drafted ahead of Russell, even if people did believe he would be the better QB...Potential at the QB position has always trumped steady consistent guys, same reason why Vince Young went well before Leinart and Russell well before Quinn, its no different for Ryan....Only difference is there isnt a QB in this draft with a huge amount of potential or a high ceiling, but if there was he would be pushed back just the same, but due to the fact that there really isnt another 1st rd qb this draft, he is going to be rated alot higher due to need and teams who have no qb.

P-L
04-08-2008, 12:31 PM
I think Matt Ryan is closer to Brady Quinn than he is to JaMarcus Russell.

Shiver
04-08-2008, 12:42 PM
Thanks, I needed the laugh. What metric does Matt Ryan grade out as superior to Russell? Physical tools? Decision making? Accuracy? Because as far as I am concerned it isn't even close. The only thing I can think of is some magical, and thus unquantifiable, "it" intangible that people are attributing to Matt Ryan.

It isn't like I don't like Ryan either, as I am one of the few Falcons' fans who wouldn't kill myself if Atlanta took him. I think he is better than Brady Quinn, whose accuracy and mental toughness I still have doubts about, but I just don't see the rationale behind rating him above Russell.

Halsey
04-08-2008, 08:01 PM
Mcshay and Kiper have the advantage of hindsight. Russel has reportedly had major weight problems, which are a hint of motivational problems. That's why they say that.

keylime_5
04-08-2008, 08:11 PM
Russell is/was clearly a head and shoulders prospect above Ryan, but Kiper and McShay apparently just think he'll be not that good of a QB and that Ryan will is all. It's not like they said that Ryan is a better prospect or that if they were in the same draft that Ryan would go first, just that they'd personally prefer Ryan. Not that big of a stretch really, but I don't think either will be that great.

ThePudge
04-08-2008, 08:41 PM
I'm assuming those who hate Matt Ryan are the ones who simply look at his stats and/or physcial abilities and compare them to Quinn's or Russell's. Most here are way too hard on him. Those same people are likely the ones that have never seen him player. I may take Ryan over Russell, I'd have taken Quinn over Russell if I were building a team. It is a guarantee though, that if they were in the same draft, the Raiders would have still went Russell, just because of Al Davis' infatuation with raw talent.

They never said he'd be drafted ahead of Russell, they said they would take him over Russell. I agree with them.

MetSox17
04-08-2008, 08:45 PM
I DVR'ed todays 6et SportsCenter and they were supposed to have more Draft Debate so i'll look for exactly what they said and why.
I'll post on this later

Michigan
04-08-2008, 08:49 PM
what the hell exactly are "intangibles"?

clutch ability? leadership? marketability? charisma? work ethic?
why not just call it those things?

BlindSite
04-08-2008, 08:53 PM
Regardless of what anyone on here personally thinks of Russell, Matt Ryan would not be drafted ahead of him...Put Matt Ryan in that same draft and he's a 2nd round pick so it makes no sense to say otherwise...Quinn wasnt sniffed until he hit the 20's, If Miami passed up Quinn they would of passed up Ryan also, and nowhere in between would anyone of been excited over what Matt Ryan has to offer.


Even if Russell did get overhyped or whatever you want to call it, physically him and Ryan arent even close, nor are they close in potential or upside...If McShay does feel that way so be it, but no NFL teams agree with him on that.

Its funny that you're still under the impression that Russel was drafted at number 1 overall because he was a better prospect than Brady Quinn.

ThePudge
04-08-2008, 09:03 PM
what the hell exactly are "intangibles"?

clutch ability? leadership? marketability? charisma? work ethic?
why not just call it those things?

Intangibles is one word. You named five (or technically seven I suppose), it also includes his smarts and feel for the game. Intangibles basically covers all of that.

ThePudge
04-08-2008, 09:13 PM
Thats basically my point, Quinn and Ryan make for a much better debate and could probably say they are remotely close, but im almost certain no one touches Matt Ryan in that draft until late 1st rd at the soonest...Quinn seemed like his draft stock was almost higher then Ryan's yet no one felt like he was that great of a talent that they had to pick him when he fell to them...I have no reason to believe if he was in that draft class that Oakland would take him over Russell, or that anyone else in the top 10 would fell suit to take him, which is why I dont understand the comment about him being a better prospect.

Your logic is off. I won't get too far into detail because I am a little tired at the moment. I'll give you an example though.

Vince Young - 3rd Overall Pick in 2006. Matt Leinart - 10th Overall Pick in 2006.

Vince Young was not considered, unanimously, to be the better QB than Leinart. Different people, different teams had different opinions. In the end, Young was the right fit for Tennessee, though the two were graded fairly evenly as prospects.

Miami passed Brady Quinn, but who's to say they would have passed on Matt Ryan. Who's to say they wouldn't have fallen in love with Ryan as a prospect. They liked Beck's intelligence, maturity, and were probably a bit worried about Brady Quinn's lack of ability to create when a play broke down or maybe it was his lack of poise in big games, or even his actions when he faced pressure. Matt Ryan handles pressure well, has excellent pocket presence, and keeps his poise in even the toughest of games. He could've been a pick at the 9 spot.

I'm not saying Ryan was a better prospect than Quinn, though I think they were more even then people around here would have you believe. Quinn certainly had some strengths that may not be strong points in Matt Ryan's game. However, you never know, different teams fall for different types of player.

CC.SD
04-08-2008, 09:42 PM
what the hell exactly are "intangibles"?

clutch ability? leadership? marketability? charisma? work ethic?
why not just call it those things?

If only there were some way to measure them...some way in which to give an indication of their tangibility...





:D

Abaddon
04-09-2008, 05:08 AM
Russell looked very lost and confused last season when he played...but the could be the result of missing a **** load of offseason time with his stupid holdout or that could be the result of the competition he was facing?

I would also take Ryan over Russell but just because I think Ryan will have a better career.
Can't really take anything from Russell's rookie year. No camp. No preseason. A RB can get away with that. But a QB who's already been dubbed "Big Dummy" by some fans? Impossible.

He wasn't exactly entering the league against slouch defenses either.

But, at the college level, I think the only thing that really put Russell ahead of Quinn as a prospect was his poise. Quinn got happy feet under pressure, where Russell seemed to be able to maintain his composure, at least better than Quinn.

Why the Bengals
04-09-2008, 10:38 AM
I like all the points I guess it comes down to potential and higher ceiling. Sometimes those guys celings come crashing down and sometimes they rise to new levels. I believe the highr celing guys are picked in the later rounds b/c they have something to prove while the guys picked early have their money and don't always work as hard to get better. Russsell has great talent no doubt but I would not want to draft a guy that in some circles is lazy and has a weight problem. Hopefully the kid improves and gets better but I'd rather take a guy like Quinn/Ryan who works for eveything they get. They might not have the talent level or celing of a Russell but their work ethic makes them and their team better

adamprez2003
04-09-2008, 10:42 AM
i read an article that interviewed a bunch of GMs and the majority had Ryan ahead of Quinn with some having him ahead of Russelll due to the fact he could step in and play right away. So its not that crazy a statement. All depends on what you're looking for from a QB. Potential or safety. Obviously Davis loves raw potential but if it was a different GM with a different team it could have been Ryan

MetSox17
04-09-2008, 11:02 AM
If only there were some way to measure them...some way in which to give an indication of their tangibility...





:D

kinda like a... tang-o-meter?..lol

And I wouldn't take anything Mel Kiper says now a days seriously, some of the stuff the guy says is ridiculous. He and Todd McShay were pissing each other off all day yesterday, and Kiper was saying that Aqib Talib will go AT LATEST to New Orleans at 10. lol.

The guy would get beat like a dirty rug in man coverage this year, and he expects the team that has Jason freakin David on their roster to take him?

He also made himself look like an ass when he was trying to make McShay look stupid when he said that he had McFadden as his number one prospect, but him not going number one overall.

McShay then told him why he didn't have Glenn Dorsey going to the Dolphins if that was his logic and he didn't know how to respond.

marks01234
04-09-2008, 11:11 AM
I am still in the group who thinks Ryan ought to be a late first rounder this year. Is he really any better than Matt Schuab coming out of school?

CC.SD
04-09-2008, 11:15 AM
I am still in the group who thinks Ryan ought to be a late first rounder this year. Is he really any better than Matt Schuab coming out of school?

Yeah I'd say so. There's a lot to be said for coming thiiiiiiis close to having Boston freaking College in the NC game. I think Ryan's gonna be a good QB, I can't help it. Although I will admit he has the last couple minutes of the VT game to thank for his rise to the top.

thebow305
04-09-2008, 11:15 AM
They are both idiots.

toonsterwu
04-09-2008, 11:43 AM
I am still in the group who thinks Ryan ought to be a late first rounder this year. Is he really any better than Matt Schuab coming out of school?

Yes, and I say this as a huge Schaub fan. Schaub didn't have his pocket awareness. There's some other small differences, but the big difference, though, is that Schaub's physical capabilities are not on par with Ryan's at the same point, and Ryan also has better physical upside. Namely, Schaub's ability to hit the tough outs, to make the tough intermediate throws was debatable.

I think Schaub and Brohm is a much better comparison.

DawgBone
04-09-2008, 11:48 AM
At the time I dont think anyone should draft Ryan over Russell. But since then, the preception is that Russell is very lazy and didnt look good in his only playing time (little it be) last season. His weight will be an issue his team will have to worry about every offseason.

McShay also said that he would take Ryan over Lienart, Young, and Cutler.

What is it about 19 INT's that people love so much?

I personally rate Joey Harrington in college better than Ryan, but would have had them fairly even at the pro level.

I dont believe Ryan is even worth a RD1 grade however harsh that may be.

BamaFalcon59
04-09-2008, 04:38 PM
I am still in the group who thinks Ryan ought to be a late first rounder this year. Is he really any better than Matt Schuab coming out of school?

He had concerns with a shoulder injury and a down senior season, otherwise I am sure Schaub would have went much higher than round three.

But the two guys are different players. Schaub is more of a game manager with good accuracy where as Matt Ryan I would say is a bigger playmaker, is more mobile, and of course has the intangibles thing.


Potential at the QB position has always trumped steady consistent guys, same reason why Vince Young went well before Leinart and Russell well before Quinn, its no different for Ryan....


While most of the time potential is given the nod, it has went the other way.

Peyton Manning went over Ryan Leaf.
Tim Couch went over Donovan McNabb and Akili Smith.
Matt Leinart over Jay Cutler.

The difference is.. the Hype put Russell at #1.

The hype can't justify Ryan being a top 5 pick.

Therefore... Russell > Ryan.

Quinn and Ryan would be a much better debate. I take Quinn though. He had better WR's, but worse RB's/OL to work with. And a tougher schedule.

Hype can justify Matt Ryan being a top five pick. If a NFL General Manager has him rated that high then it is a justifiable pick. Not to mention there are several GMs who have said he is a very good player.

I don't know. I mean, it's hard to believe anyone would succeed in Oakland until Al Davis retires.

But in equal playing ground I think Russell would be the better QB.

Frankly I still believe Brohm is the best QB in this class now with Josh Johnson having the highest upside.

You knock Matt Ryan because of upside, yet he has much better size and arm strength than Josh Johnson, who you say has the most upside.

toonsterwu
04-09-2008, 04:43 PM
At the time I dont think anyone should draft Ryan over Russell. But since then, the preception is that Russell is very lazy and didnt look good in his only playing time (little it be) last season. His weight will be an issue his team will have to worry about every offseason.

McShay also said that he would take Ryan over Lienart, Young, and Cutler.

What is it about 19 INT's that people love so much?

I personally rate Joey Harrington in college better than Ryan, but would have had them fairly even at the pro level.

I dont believe Ryan is even worth a RD1 grade however harsh that may be.

I would definitely take Cutler over Ryan. That said, I was a gigantic fan of Cutler. I know the positives of Ryan over Cutler (the perception is that Ryan is more polished than Cutler at the same point, amongst other things). I can see Leinart and Ryan on the same level, and in the case of Young, it comes down to teams. There's just certain offenses that Vince Young isn't going to excel at, so that's a separate dynamic.

Addict
04-09-2008, 04:45 PM
I would definitely take Cutler over Ryan. That said, I was a gigantic fan of Cutler. I know the positives of Ryan over Cutler (the perception is that Ryan is more polished than Cutler at the same point, amongst other things). I can see Leinart and Ryan on the same level, and in the case of Young, it comes down to teams. There's just certain offenses that Vince Young isn't going to excel at, so that's a separate dynamic.

I agree, Cutler beats out Ryan every day of the week and twice on sundays in my book.

bigbluedefense
04-09-2008, 04:55 PM
This is how Ive graded the past quarterback drafts:

1. Eli Manning
2. Phillip Rivers
3. Ben Roethlisberger
(i strongly feel this will be how it pans out long term as well)

1. Jay Cutler
2. Matt Leinart
3. Vince Young
(liking Cutler, but I might be wrong about the other 2. I thought Vince Young would be a bust, so far he's not, and I thought Leinart would be solid, so far he's not).

1. Brady Quinn
2. John Beck
3. Trent Edwards
4. Jamarcus Russell
(felt Russell is waaay overrated, Quinn way underrated, and liked Beck and Edwards as solid types).

Take that for what its worth. I will say this: I hate this year's qb class. Ryan would be a 2nd round pick last year.

If i had to grade them, Id say:

1. Joe Flacco
2. Andre Woodson
3. Matt Ryan
4. Brian Brohm

Yes, Im high on Andre Woodson.

BamaFalcon59
04-09-2008, 05:08 PM
If i had to grade them, Id say:

1. Joe Flacco
2. Andre Smith
3. Matt Ryan
4. Brian Brohm

Yes, Im high on Andre Smith.

Wow. Apparently I have missed out on a very good player. Who does Andre Smith play for?

Unless you mean Andre Woodson, in which case I'm not sure how you can be so high on a guy whose name you don't know.

toonsterwu
04-09-2008, 05:25 PM
Let's see, back in 2004, I think my personal list went Ben Rothlisberger, Eli Manning, JP Losman, Phillip Rivers, Matt Schaub. Personal favorite that year, without bias, was JP Losman. I really liked him, though I knew the risks.

2005 I remember more clearly. That was Alex Smith, Jason Campbell, Aaron Rodgers, Charlie Frye, Kyle Orton. Personal favorite was Alex Smith. I had questions about Campbell.

2006 went Jay Cutler, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Kellen Clemens, Charlie Whitehurst. Personal favorite was Jay Cutler.

2007 was Jamarcus Russell, Kevin Kolb, Trent Edwards, Brady Quinn, John Beck. Personal favorite was Kevin Kolb, although Trent Edwards was a close 2nd.

This year, it would be Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Brian Brohm, Andre' Woodson, Chad Henne. Personal favorite is Flacco.

Geo
04-09-2008, 06:43 PM
I hate this year's qb class. Ryan would be a 2nd round pick last year.

If i had to grade them, Id say:

1. Joe Flacco
2. Andre Smith
3. Matt Ryan
4. Brian Brohm

Yes, Im high on Andre Smith.
Do you mean Andre Woodson? Because if so, I agree with you, I think he's become very underrated. And I'm not crazy about Ryan either (we agree so much lol), although this class seems to be strong in the 2nd round talent area. My top four is probably the same as yours.

ninerfan
04-09-2008, 07:04 PM
The 1 thing I know is I'm glad we dont have an early pick and we dont need a QB desperately ! I just cant see any QB being top 10 this year and think Ryans a mid 1st guy. Someone's going to reach and overpay imo.

bigbluedefense
04-09-2008, 07:23 PM
Wow. Apparently I have missed out on a very good player. Who does Andre Smith play for?

Unless you mean Andre Woodson, in which case I'm not sure how you can be so high on a guy whose name you don't know.

woodson, excuse my moronic lapse.

ive seen enough of him that at one point i felt he was the best qb in this draft class. way too much is being made of his throwing motion. he has size, speed, accuracy, an arm, plays well in big moments, can read defenses, whats not to like?

scottyboy
04-09-2008, 07:31 PM
i think we can all agree Mike Teel will be the best QB prospect since John Elway and is 10 time the prospect Russel, Ryan, Quinn and any other random QB in this discussion excluding Eli Manning.

bigbluedefense
04-09-2008, 07:32 PM
i think we can all agree Mike Teel will be the best QB prospect since John Elway and is 10 time the prospect Russel, Ryan, Quinn and any other random QB in this discussion excluding Eli Manning.

i want underwood on the giants when he comes out next year.

scottyboy
04-09-2008, 07:34 PM
i want underwood on the giants when he comes out next year.

Yea, Underwood would be great.

I'd love Britt if he entered early.

Hell, we all know I want every RU player on the Giants...

toonsterwu
04-09-2008, 07:34 PM
bbd, i am a fan of Woodson. I am. In terms of personal favorites, he would be second behind Flacco for me.

That said, throwing mechanics are often a high indicator for the abiltiy to bust. For some teams, they can't afford to take that chance. Now, if you are a team with a veteran in place and can afford 2-3 years developing a guy, sure. But most teams drafting a QB early, even into the 2nd, are often looking for the QB to be involved within the first 2 years.

BBIB
04-09-2008, 07:35 PM
I don't know about all-time but Matt Ryan is the most overrated draft prospect in the last decade.

No other QB that I can find that's been so hyped up as an elite prospect without great physical tools and/or production for at least one year.

Russell fit both requirements. He had the insane physical gifts with his size and one of the strongest arms ever and he had pretty darn nice production at LSU his final season ranking #1 among BCS conference school QBs in passing efficiency (3rd in nation overall).


Ryan on the other hand? Dude has no great physical tools that justify his hype nor does he even have a mere one season with a decent TD/INT ratio.


To make it even worse, in the games of his career with 15+ attempts, in only half of them has he accounted for more TDs than INTs.


That's absurdly bad people

bigbluedefense
04-09-2008, 07:38 PM
bbd, i am a fan of Woodson. I am. In terms of personal favorites, he would be second behind Flacco for me.

That said, throwing mechanics are often a high indicator for the abiltiy to bust. For some teams, they can't afford to take that chance. Now, if you are a team with a veteran in place and can afford 2-3 years developing a guy, sure. But most teams drafting a QB early, even into the 2nd, are often looking for the QB to be involved within the first 2 years.

do you think his throwing motion is that bad though? i don't think its that bad, maybe thats just me, but look at Jason Campbell. He has a slow throwing motion, and everyone is high on him, so I don't see why Campbell's style should harm him so much.

i think he's made some bad decisions and had some bad luck after the season. Martz screwed around with him and made him look worse than he is, and he just didn't do well for himself, but i think with the right coaching, he can be a solid qb.

Like you said, preferably start him out slow. I personally feel that should be the case for any qb coming into the league, whether he's the 1st pick in the draft or a 7th rounder.

btw, i greatly respect your opinion.

BamaFalcon59
04-09-2008, 08:04 PM
I don't know about all-time but Matt Ryan is the most overrated draft prospect in the last decade.

No other QB that I can find that's been so hyped up as an elite prospect without great physical tools and/or production for at least one year.

Russell fit both requirements. He had the insane physical gifts with his size and one of the strongest arms ever and he had pretty darn nice production at LSU his final season ranking #1 among BCS conference school QBs in passing efficiency (3rd in nation overall).


Ryan on the other hand? Dude has no great physical tools that justify his hype nor does he even have a mere one season with a decent TD/INT ratio.


To make it even worse, in the games of his career with 15+ attempts, in only half of them has he accounted for more TDs than INTs.


That's absurdly bad people

Well, I can tell who gos off stats too often.

toonsterwu
04-09-2008, 08:04 PM
Thanks.

Do I personally think his throwing motion is that bad? No, not really. This isn't a Byron Leftwich case, at least, I don't think it is.

I do think Campbell was a bit more smooth and a bit more consistent and at a better angle. It's been a long time since I looked at Campbell back in Auburn, though, so don't quote me on that. I think Woodson's got much more of a windup. That alone would be okay. You can live with that. But combine that with release angle, and I do think worries are legitimate.

I think Martz's intent was good. To be honest, I don't think the Senior Bowl harmed him as much as people think. The delivery issues were there all year long, and the only thing the Senior Bowl proved is that you can't remake a prospect in a week. That said, there are those that felt he tumbled at the Senior Bowl, so I could be way off there.