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View Full Version : Gholston v. Groves


skdragon1
04-08-2008, 02:11 PM
What exactly is separating Gholston from Quentin Groves?
This has been one of my biggest questions during this draft process. They both possess the similar freakish athleticism DCs want in a 3/4 Rush LB, they both produced at big-time programs, they have similar measureables. From what I've read so far, neither have character issues. Yet VG is being mentioned as a top-5 pick while Groves is a 2nd rounder... late-1st at best. What gives?

Is it simply because Ohio St. has a much higher profile than Auburn?
Or is it something else?
Discuss.

TheGreatEscape
04-08-2008, 02:18 PM
A) Groves played at Auburn

B) Gholston is a much more powerful player and has the strength and bulk to play with his hand on the line.

skdragon1
04-08-2008, 02:22 PM
haha my bad, i'll fix that

Grimsum
04-08-2008, 02:46 PM
Two things come to mind:

Groves was injured in his senior season, Gholston wasn't.

Groves put up good numbers at the combine, Gholston put up freakish numbers.

terribletowel39
04-08-2008, 02:57 PM
Isn't Groves like only 8 lbs lighter than Gholston and ran the 40 in a whole second faster?? Why does Gholston merit a 'freakish' stamp?? Please indulge.

Sigmund Bloom
04-08-2008, 03:00 PM
Ill take Groves over Gholston if I'm looking for the next Demarcus Ware or Shawne Merriman. Ill take Gholston over Groves if I'm strictly looking for a 4-3 end.

I have Groves as the top pure pass rusher in the draft and in my top 10 overall players, he'll be a steal if he falls to the 20s as many are projecting.

Grimsum
04-08-2008, 03:05 PM
Isn't Groves like only 8 lbs lighter than Gholston and ran the 40 in a whole second faster?? Why does Gholston merit a 'freakish' stamp?? Please indulge.

I can't find the combine numbers right now but, I think Groves was 0.1 second faster in the 40. Gholston benched a pretty amazing 38(?) reps, Groves did 30(?). I can't remember the other stuff (vertical, cones, shuttle etc), nor can I find it right now.

Not saying I agree with ranking Gholston so high, btw (I'm actually a Groves fan :) ), just trying to explain why some rankings have it that way.

My favorite Groves highlight link (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7683783018981062766&q=groves+kansas+state&total=19&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6)

Paranoidmoonduck
04-08-2008, 03:06 PM
Gholston has more production more recently, and passes the eyeball test like few prospects in recent memory. Personally, I prefer Groves as an outside linebacker.

lordquas
04-08-2008, 03:15 PM
groves and gholston are very similar prospects but gholston had a better season last year. groves will be better in the NFL because hes more explosive and versatile.

Thunder&Lightning
04-08-2008, 03:16 PM
Gholston holds a higher profile with better workout numbers and had a more productive season. I do agree Groves might be a better 3-4 OLB but Gholston is more versatile... could excel playing 4-3 end or 3-4 OLB.

bitonti
04-08-2008, 03:17 PM
Groves is a special athlete who can rush the passer and teams love that.
however Groves had a very rough senior campaign, even before he got hurt. He got subbed out for younger players in key situations.

tied to his draft value is Phillip Merling's. If teams like MIN write Merling off b/c of the hernia that gives Groves a bump to mid first from late first/early second.

since we are talking about tweeners on the rise, why not Cliff Avril in the late first round/early 2nd to SF,SD, MIA? he's a real good 3-4 prospect, maybe a better athlete than Spencer who won't be there in the top of the 3rd.

Cigaro
04-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Groves was injured his senior year, and before injury, was having a down system, partially because of his move to OLB.

brat316
04-08-2008, 03:24 PM
http://photo.the-ozone.net/photos/2007_2008/Football/07-09-01-FB-0080.jpg

http://images14.fotki.com/v223/photos/7/798917/5530025/071024_msu_nn4v8505-vi.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x9/tigerland2007/Auburn_QuentinGroves2.jpg

there is your difference

Thunder&Lightning
04-08-2008, 04:00 PM
http://photo.the-ozone.net/photos/2007_2008/Football/07-09-01-FB-0080.jpg

http://images14.fotki.com/v223/photos/7/798917/5530025/071024_msu_nn4v8505-vi.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x9/tigerland2007/Auburn_QuentinGroves2.jpg

there is your difference

whats the difference?

Yatta!
04-08-2008, 04:00 PM
Gholston ran 4.65 at the combine, put up 37 reps, 35.5 vert, 4.40 short shuttle and 7.12 cone drill. At his proday he ran a 4.58 40-yard dash and had a 42 inch vert.

Groves ran 4.58, had 30 reps, 29.5 inch vert, 4.42 shuttle and a 7.31 cone drill.

Imo Gholston is rated higher as he has more upside.

MasterShake
04-08-2008, 04:05 PM
Does anyone really see Groves falling to the 49ers at 29?

Alot of mocks predict that and as a 49er fan would LOVE it, but I just don't see a pass rusher like he falling that far.

Sigmund Bloom
04-08-2008, 04:05 PM
My favorite Groves highlight link (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7683783018981062766&q=groves+kansas+state&total=19&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6)

Thanks for posting that! It just highlights the violence/mean streak in Groves game - Gholston has flashes of that kind of play, but it just seems to come natural to Groves.

Scott Wright
04-08-2008, 04:07 PM
My favorite Groves highlight link (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7683783018981062766&q=groves+kansas+state&total=19&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6)

Wow, I don't know who I feel more sorry for. That tackle or the quarterback.

Thunder&Lightning
04-08-2008, 04:27 PM
Wow, I don't know who I feel more sorry for. That tackle or the quarterback.

haha gotta feel more sorry for the tackle. He probably just got absolutely torn apart during practice/film sessions the next week by his coaches...

DawgBone
04-08-2008, 04:33 PM
A) Groves played at Auburn

B) Gholston is a much more powerful player and has the strength and bulk to play with his hand on the line.

Honestly Groves played at Auburn? Is this why both Cadillac and Brown went in the top 5? Whens the last time an OSU player went in the top 5? Orlando Pace/Shawn Springs in 1997?

DawgBone
04-08-2008, 04:37 PM
I can't find the combine numbers right now but, I think Groves was 0.1 second faster in the 40. Gholston benched a pretty amazing 38(?) reps, Groves did 30(?). I can't remember the other stuff (vertical, cones, shuttle etc), nor can I find it right now.

Not saying I agree with ranking Gholston so high, btw (I'm actually a Groves fan :) ), just trying to explain why some rankings have it that way.

My favorite Groves highlight link (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7683783018981062766&q=groves+kansas+state&total=19&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6)

My favorite Gholston highlight.....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yot9ClPvZDg

And Gholston did it against the BEST LT in all of college. A heisman candidate RB at one point and one of the top 3-5 senior QB's.

LonghornsLegend
04-08-2008, 04:43 PM
I think some of it has to do with teams are looking at Groves strictly as an OLB rush backer, while Gholston is getting looked at as a 4-3 end and a 3-4 OLB...He could end up being the next Terrell Suggs for some team, thats why he's going to be drafted higher, not worth #1 but higher then Groves, although that doesnt mean he will be a better player but being drafted before Groves is justified, and they will probably only end up being 10 or so picks away from eachother, which is about right anyway.

terribletowel39
04-08-2008, 04:56 PM
Honestly Groves played at Auburn? Is this why both Cadillac and Brown went in the top 5? Whens the last time an OSU player went in the top 5? Orlando Pace/Shawn Springs in 1997?
Don't jump to conclusions. It is probably why you have a red bar of rep.

He was saying he went to Auburn because the Original Poster had it wrong.

DawgBone
04-08-2008, 04:59 PM
maybe you shouldnt jump to conclusions. i was mentioning Auburn because of this.....

"Is it simply because Ohio St. has a much higher profile than Auburn?"

And I brought up that the profile of the 2 schools had nothing to do with it and I used an example.

And I have a red bar because I like to talk smack not because morons like you judge me.

terribletowel39
04-08-2008, 05:03 PM
maybe you shouldnt jump to conclusions. i was mentioning Auburn because of this.....

"Is it simply because Ohio St. has a much higher profile than Auburn?"

And I brought up that the profile of the 2 schools had nothing to do with it and I used an example.

And I have a red bar because I like to talk smack not because morons like you judge me.
nice cover up. you sounded like a smart ass that was being sarcastic with your "Honestly Groves played at Auburn?" remark. and if you did mention Auburn because of that reason, you quoted the wrong thing. This: "Is it simply because Ohio St. has a much higher profile than Auburn?" is nowhere in the quote you quoted.

and i think it's the other way. you have a red bar because you are a moron. if you say intelligent things, you get + rep if you say stupid things, you get - rep.

A Perfect Score
04-08-2008, 05:17 PM
maybe you shouldnt jump to conclusions. i was mentioning Auburn because of this.....

"Is it simply because Ohio St. has a much higher profile than Auburn?"

And I brought up that the profile of the 2 schools had nothing to do with it and I used an example.

And I have a red bar because I like to talk smack not because morons like you judge me.


dude...just no...its all good to talk smack, but you just sound like a nooob when u do....


anyways, groves is ghetto, and people around here know ive been saying all along he is the best pass rusher in the draft, hands down. He CAN play 4-3 DE as well, and ill venture so far as to say he will be a better 4-3 end then derrick harvey if given the oppourunity. As far as him vs gholston, the main reason gholston is ranked much higher is because he is a big musckle bound dummy....kidding. Gholston is definately more well rounded and while i think groves is the more effective rusher, gholston is better all around.

Lets not forget, groves is tied for the all time sack lead at auburn...im not positive, but he probably had more career sacks in college then gholston did...i relaly pray groves falls to the ravens in round 2, but i know he wont.


in a 3-4, groves will be a much better player then gholston. Looking at it logically, he is not only faster, but he is a much more fluid athlete. also, he has alot more experience in college then gholston does, and is arguably better in space. overall, i dont think its as big of a margin as people say, and i would not be at all shocked to see groves turn out the better player.

oh, and he pwened that tackle int aht clip

Big_Pete
04-08-2008, 05:20 PM
As a 3-4 OLB, why isn't Cliff Avril being mentioned along with Groves and Gholston? He seems to be very similar:

Vernon Gholston, 6'3", 266lbs, 4.58 40, 37 reps, 4.40 SS, 42" vert, 10'05" BJ, 7.12 3cone

Quentin Groves, 6'3", 259lbs, 4.53 40, 30 reps, 4.42 SS, 35" vert, 10'00 BJ, 7.31 3cone

Cliff Avril, 6'3", 253lbs, 4.51 40, 27 reps, 4.31 SS, 36.5" vert, 9'09" BJ, 6.90 3cone

It seems to be there are three absolute stud 3-4 OLBs in the draft. To be honest, I dont think there is that much difference between any of them.

That is without moving other DEs to 3-4 OLB such as Chris Long, Derrick Harvey or Lawrence Jackson.

Thunder&Lightning
04-08-2008, 05:22 PM
nice cover up. you sounded like a smart ass that was being sarcastic with your "Honestly Groves played at Auburn?" remark. and if you did mention Auburn because of that reason, you quoted the wrong thing. This: "Is it simply because Ohio St. has a much higher profile than Auburn?" is nowhere in the quote you quoted.

and i think it's the other way. you have a red bar because you are a moron. if you say intelligent things, you get + rep if you say stupid things, you get - rep.

hahahaha im +repin you when i can

ChezPower4
04-08-2008, 05:41 PM
They are both great athletes but Gholston is bigger, stronger and more expolsive. With that said I can see why Gholston is rated higher but i do like both guys but if I had to chose one i would pick Gholston.

I think that where they played has nothing to do about where they rated. Groves played in a better confence so if anything he that should be a plus for him. Ohio St. has been pumping out NFL talent for many years so Gholston has that working for him but to me it doesn't matter if your good then your good no matter where you play.

no love
04-08-2008, 06:18 PM
dude...just no...its all good to talk smack, but you just sound like a nooob when u do....


anyways, groves is ghetto, and people around here know ive been saying all along he is the best pass rusher in the draft, hands down. He CAN play 4-3 DE as well, and ill venture so far as to say he will be a better 4-3 end then derrick harvey if given the oppourunity. As far as him vs gholston, the main reason gholston is ranked much higher is because he is a big musckle bound dummy....kidding. Gholston is definately more well rounded and while i think groves is the more effective rusher, gholston is better all around.

Lets not forget, groves is tied for the all time sack lead at auburn...im not positive, but he probably had more career sacks in college then gholston did...i relaly pray groves falls to the ravens in round 2, but i know he wont.


in a 3-4, groves will be a much better player then gholston. Looking at it logically, he is not only faster, but he is a much more fluid athlete. also, he has alot more experience in college then gholston does, and is arguably better in space. overall, i dont think its as big of a margin as people say, and i would not be at all shocked to see groves turn out the better player.

oh, and he pwened that tackle int aht clip

Are you drunk again?

terribletowel39
04-08-2008, 06:19 PM
Are you drunk again?
i think he just took a shot on the last sentence. haha

BamaFalcon59
04-08-2008, 06:28 PM
First of all Groves is much more liable against the run than Gholston. Secondly and most importantly, Groves had a horrible senior season, where as Gholston had his break out season. Had Quentin Groves had a replica of his junior season as a senior, then I would say he would be rated in the top 15 picks, probably right near or above Derrick Harvey. Gholston is a 6-10 prospect right now. I think Derrick Harvey could be as good as Gholston, not sure why people have him slated ten spots below Gholston. I could see Harvey going as high as New England.

A Perfect Score
04-08-2008, 06:33 PM
its too early to be drunk on a wednesday...i just messed up that last sentence i think i dunno lol that was suppoesd to say pwned but it didnt work...whatever, groves owned that tackle hgaha

BamaFalcon59
04-08-2008, 06:36 PM
its too early to be drunk on a wednesday...i just messed up that last sentence i think i dunno lol that was suppoesd to say pwned but it didnt work...whatever, groves owned that tackle hgaha

You are pretty bad with typing. Haha.

A Perfect Score
04-08-2008, 06:47 PM
You are pretty bad with typing. Haha.

lol, well usually it is because im drunk, but right niwo, i am just trying to do homework while posting on ehre, and i just do both very very fast. However, unlike microsoft word, this doesnt have autocorrect. so i sound like a tool hahaha

TheGreatEscape
04-08-2008, 09:22 PM
Honestly Groves played at Auburn? Is this why both Cadillac and Brown went in the top 5? Whens the last time an OSU player went in the top 5? Orlando Pace/Shawn Springs in 1997?

Um...uptight much?

My first point was correcting the original post in which the poster incorrectly stated that Groves attended Clemson. I have a lot more respect for Auburn than I do Ohio State, largely because I loath the state of Ohio.

So instead of going on an angry rant about Ohio State sucking you should chill and figure out what happened.

swollja
04-08-2008, 10:14 PM
if the fins dont take chris #1, i'd cream my pants if they got groves at #33

SenorGato
04-08-2008, 10:29 PM
1. Gholston's bigger and stronger.

2. He was healthy.

3. He's got the perceived upside advantage.

4. People SERIOUSLY forgot just how nasty Groves is. They lost the USF game this year, but watch that game again and it was all Groves for Auburn...

5. For some weird reason Groves is perceived as a pass rusher only type. But he's fluid and intelligent enough to drop back in coverage, and he's got excellent playing strength.

Now WTF happened to Shawn Crable? No one's talking about that guy anymore. Nice to see someone mention Avril too.

A Perfect Score
04-08-2008, 10:31 PM
1. Gholston's bigger and stronger.

2. He was healthy.

3. He's got the perceived upside advantage.

4. People SERIOUSLY forgot just how nasty Groves is. They lost the USF game this year, but watch that game again and it was all Groves for Auburn...

yeah didnt groves have like 3 sacks and 2 FF that game? that was ridiculous, ir emember watching it

SenorGato
04-08-2008, 10:36 PM
yeah didnt groves have like 3 sacks and 2 FF that game? that was ridiculous, ir emember watching it

He and Crable are probably two of the best players in this draft and getting themselves into the backfield and I hear no talk for either of them.

Weird thing is both have excellent length, frames, physical tools, and production...yet they seem so ignored.

TACKLE
04-08-2008, 10:55 PM
Whens the last time an OSU player went in the top 5? Orlando Pace/Shawn Springs in 1997?

AJ Hawk - 2006

SchizophrenicBatman
04-08-2008, 11:21 PM
http://photo.the-ozone.net/photos/2007_2008/Football/07-09-01-FB-0080.jpg

http://images14.fotki.com/v223/photos/7/798917/5530025/071024_msu_nn4v8505-vi.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x9/tigerland2007/Auburn_QuentinGroves2.jpg

there is your difference

one is on HGH?

swollja
04-08-2008, 11:27 PM
one is on HGH?

hahaha true

A Perfect Score
04-09-2008, 08:27 AM
i see by those pics that gholston is might jacked, but lets find some pics of groves and i have a feeling it isnt like hes small either...hes 6'3 259...thats wat he weighed in at at the combine, and still ran a 4.58...groves is a freak. who isnt on HGH :)

Shane P. Hallam
04-09-2008, 08:43 AM
Gholston is a better DE overall, though Groves may be the better 3-4 OLB

metafour
04-09-2008, 09:37 AM
i see by those pics that gholston is might jacked, but lets find some pics of groves and i have a feeling it isnt like hes small either...hes 6'3 259...thats wat he weighed in at at the combine, and still ran a 4.58...groves is a freak. who isnt on HGH :)

http://media.scout.com/media/image/44/441993.jpg

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/43/438807.jpg

Both of those were taken when Groves was playing at around 250lbs. The second is him racing against cornerback Zach Gilbert....Groves won.

thebow305
04-09-2008, 11:10 AM
I'd rather have Gholston at #1, but I certainly wouldn't be upset with Groves in the 2nd if we decided to take Jake #1.

DawgBone
04-09-2008, 11:54 AM
hahahaha im +repin you when i can

Funny, you +rep him and the mods gave him an infraction lol.

DawgBone
04-09-2008, 11:56 AM
Um...uptight much?

My first point was correcting the original post in which the poster incorrectly stated that Groves attended Clemson. I have a lot more respect for Auburn than I do Ohio State, largely because I loath the state of Ohio.

So instead of going on an angry rant about Ohio State sucking you should chill and figure out what happened.

Where was the angry rant about OSU sucking? Or was that a made up fact in order to win an arguement? I love those but they also get you negative rep.

terribletowel39
04-09-2008, 11:59 AM
Funny, you +rep him and the mods gave him an infraction lol.
except the mods didn't give me an infraction silly. once you attacked me, its defense.

anyways. I agree with most of what is being said. I think Gholston's intense muscular build makes him less fluid, not saying he is stiff, just might hurt him in coverage. Groves is the best 34 OLB prospect in the draft. Gholston is the 2nd best 43 DE.

Mr. Stiller
04-09-2008, 01:26 PM
As a 3-4 OLB, why isn't Cliff Avril being mentioned along with Groves and Gholston? He seems to be very similar:

Vernon Gholston, 6'3", 266lbs, 4.58 40, 37 reps, 4.40 SS, 42" vert, 10'05" BJ, 7.12 3cone

Quentin Groves, 6'3", 259lbs, 4.53 40, 30 reps, 4.42 SS, 35" vert, 10'00 BJ, 7.31 3cone

Cliff Avril, 6'3", 253lbs, 4.51 40, 27 reps, 4.31 SS, 36.5" vert, 9'09" BJ, 6.90 3cone

It seems to be there are three absolute stud 3-4 OLBs in the draft. To be honest, I dont think there is that much difference between any of them.

That is without moving other DEs to 3-4 OLB such as Chris Long, Derrick Harvey or Lawrence Jackson.

Um. This year is good 2009 will be the best 3-4 Draft class in the last 10 years in my estimation.

I could go through the whole list. But next years OL/DL/3-4LB prospects are off the charts.

Mr. Stiller
04-09-2008, 01:28 PM
Does anyone really see Groves falling to the 49ers at 29?

Alot of mocks predict that and as a 49er fan would LOVE it, but I just don't see a pass rusher like he falling that far.

I don't see Groves falling past PIttsburgh.

With Alberts meteoric rise, I expect Pittsburgh to be drafting Groves at 23.

A Perfect Score
04-09-2008, 07:22 PM
I don't see Groves falling past PIttsburgh.

With Alberts meteoric rise, I expect Pittsburgh to be drafting Groves at 23.

but dont pittsburgh have woodley/harrison/timmons at OLB? i didnt know it was a need for them...i thought they had much bigger needs at CB/OL...do you really think they would draft groves?

DEL jzc
04-10-2008, 10:39 AM
but dont pittsburgh have woodley/harrison/timmons at OLB? i didnt know it was a need for them...i thought they had much bigger needs at CB/OL...do you really think they would draft groves?

Timmons is moving inside. Harrison will be 30 years old in May. We have no backups for either OLB position right now on the roster (unless you want to count some special teamers).

There's a lot of debate right now in Steelers land because it looks more and more likely Albert is long gone. That puts us into picking Cherilus or maybe Otah (which some people don't really like) vs. the field.

Some are pushing for Stewart. Some like Groves. Some like Cason/Talib. Some like the big WR's (Hardy/Sweed/Thomas).

I'm still of the opinion we take Cherilus as a slight need pick, but that opens up a lot more value based options/decisions later in the draft. But I understand some people that are true BPA advocates having an argument Cherilus isn't the higher rated prospect vs. who they are pimping.